13/12/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.tax advantages but also provided in many cases a simplified regulatory

:00:00. > :00:08.environment, which is very attractive to businesses. I think

:00:09. > :00:15.there experience commends them. Order, statement the Secretary of

:00:16. > :00:27.State for Health. Secretary Jeremy Hunt.

:00:28. > :00:32.Mr Speaker, on the 12th of April this year I asked the sea QC to

:00:33. > :00:39.conduct an investigation into lessons that needed to be learned

:00:40. > :00:45.following the tragic death of Connor sparrowhawk in 2013 at seven health

:00:46. > :00:50.NHS Trust. I want to start by paying tribute to his family, particularly

:00:51. > :00:54.his mother, Sara Ryan, but her persistent and determined

:00:55. > :00:58.campaigning for a proper investigation into what happened.

:00:59. > :01:01.The lessons of mid-Staffs, Morecambe Bay and other injustices like

:01:02. > :01:06.Hillsborough is that when families speak out, we must listen. In this

:01:07. > :01:12.case, thanks to Doctor Ryan's efforts, many improvements will be

:01:13. > :01:19.made for the care of people to learning disabilities, many lives

:01:20. > :01:23.saved. I asked the CQC to look at what happened in that NHS Foundation

:01:24. > :01:27.Trust and assess more broadly lessons for the NHS as a whole.

:01:28. > :01:33.Their findings make sobering reading. Amongst other things, the

:01:34. > :01:39.report said that families and carers often have a poor experience of

:01:40. > :01:43.mortality investigations. Sometimes not treated with kindness, respect

:01:44. > :01:47.and sensitivity, can feel their involvement is tokenistic and often

:01:48. > :01:50.question the independence of the reports.

:01:51. > :01:57.The NHS does not prioritise learning from death and Mrs countless

:01:58. > :02:02.opportunities to learn and improve. There is no single framework which

:02:03. > :02:05.sets out our local NHS organisations should identify, analyse and learn

:02:06. > :02:11.from depths of patients in their care or who have recently been in

:02:12. > :02:17.their car. As a result, there is inconsistency. Some NHS trusts get

:02:18. > :02:23.some elements of mortality reporting right, but not one gets all elements

:02:24. > :02:26.right. In particular, the leaders of NHS organisations, their doctors,

:02:27. > :02:31.nurses and other staff, simply do not have access to the full picture

:02:32. > :02:35.of how many patients die in their care, which deaths were preventable

:02:36. > :02:39.and what needs to be learned. I would like to thank Professor Sir

:02:40. > :02:45.Mike Richards and his CQC colleagues for an extremely thoughtful and

:02:46. > :02:51.thorough report. I am accepting all their recommendations. So from March

:02:52. > :02:57.the next year, the boards of all NHS trusts and foundations trusts will

:02:58. > :03:02.be required to collect a range of specified information on deaths that

:03:03. > :03:05.were potentially avoidable and serious incidents and consider what

:03:06. > :03:09.lessons need to be learned on a regular basis -- from March the 31st

:03:10. > :03:13.next year. This includes estimates of how many deaths could have been

:03:14. > :03:18.prevented in their own organisation and an assessment of why this might

:03:19. > :03:23.vary, positively or negatively, from the national average, based on

:03:24. > :03:29.methodology adapted by the Royal College of physicians from work done

:03:30. > :03:32.by Professor Nick Blacker Doctor Helen Hogan. We will require trusts

:03:33. > :03:35.to publish that information quarterly in accordance with

:03:36. > :03:38.regulations I will lay before the house so that patients and the

:03:39. > :03:43.public can see when and where progress is being made. Alongside

:03:44. > :03:46.that data they will publish evidence of learning in action that is

:03:47. > :03:52.happening as a consequence of that information. They will feed the

:03:53. > :03:59.information back to NHS improvement at a national levels of the whole

:04:00. > :04:05.NHS can learn. All trusts will be asked to identify a board level

:04:06. > :04:08.leader as patient safety directed to take responsibility for this agenda

:04:09. > :04:13.and ensure it is prioritise and resourced within their organisation.

:04:14. > :04:17.This person is likely to be the medical director. They will be asked

:04:18. > :04:21.to appoint a nonexecutive director to take oversight of progress. We

:04:22. > :04:26.will ensure that investigations of deaths that may be the result

:04:27. > :04:29.problems in care are more thorough and genuinely involve families and

:04:30. > :04:37.carers. More broadly, instead of the

:04:38. > :04:40.patchwork approach we currently have, all trusts will be asked to

:04:41. > :04:41.follow a standardised national framework for identifying

:04:42. > :04:44.potentially avoidable deaths, reviewing the care provided and

:04:45. > :04:48.learning from the stakes. I've asked the NHS National quality

:04:49. > :04:54.board, which include senior clinicians from all national NHS

:04:55. > :04:58.organisations, to draw a guidance on reviewing and learning from the care

:04:59. > :05:03.provided to people who died, in consultation with the new chief

:05:04. > :05:06.investigator health care safety. These guidelines will be published

:05:07. > :05:11.before the end of March next year for implementation by all trusts in

:05:12. > :05:14.the year starting next April. We will also work with the National

:05:15. > :05:19.quality board to insure that much greater support is offered to

:05:20. > :05:24.bereaved families in the future. Because the report highlighted those

:05:25. > :05:28.issues around support to families, health education England will be

:05:29. > :05:31.asked to review the training for all doctors and nurses in respect to

:05:32. > :05:35.both engaging with patients and families after a tragedy and,

:05:36. > :05:40.equally importantly, maintaining their own mental health and

:05:41. > :05:43.resilience in extremely challenging situations.

:05:44. > :05:45.Finally, because the report identified particular concerns about

:05:46. > :05:51.the treatment of people with learning disabilities, we'll take

:05:52. > :05:55.tee further actions. In acute trusts we will ask for particular priority

:05:56. > :05:58.to begin them to identifying patients with a mental health

:05:59. > :06:03.problem or learning disability, to make sure that their care response

:06:04. > :06:08.to their particular needs. At that particular trouble is taken over any

:06:09. > :06:12.mortality investigations to ensure wrong assumptions are not made about

:06:13. > :06:18.the inevitability of death. We will also ensure that the NHS reviews

:06:19. > :06:22.have learned from all depths of people with learning disabilities in

:06:23. > :06:27.all settings, learning disabilities mortality review programme will

:06:28. > :06:32.provide support to both families and local NHS areas to enable reporting

:06:33. > :06:37.an independent standardised review of all learning disability depths

:06:38. > :06:42.between the ages of four 274. We will ensure there is coverage in all

:06:43. > :06:49.regions the end of next year and full national roll-out by 2019. As

:06:50. > :06:53.the programme develops, it will all be transferred to the avoidable

:06:54. > :06:56.national mortality programme. I have asked another programme to provide

:06:57. > :06:59.annual reports to the Department of Health on its findings and how best

:07:00. > :07:06.to take forward learnings across the NHS. From next year, we will then

:07:07. > :07:11.become the first country in the world to publish data on avoidable

:07:12. > :07:15.deaths at a hospital by hospital level. I want to address the issue

:07:16. > :07:22.of how we ensure data published about avoidable deaths is accurate,

:07:23. > :07:25.fairer and meaningful and ensure that the process of publication

:07:26. > :07:31.rewards openness and honesty. Of course we will be working closely

:07:32. > :07:34.with the CQC, NHS improvement in senior NHS doctors and nurses to get

:07:35. > :07:39.this right, but I want to make clear to the House that I will not set a

:07:40. > :07:43.target for reducing reported avoidable deaths, nor do I believe

:07:44. > :07:48.it would be valid to compare numbers between hospitals, because the data

:07:49. > :08:01.depends on clinical views which may change all vary. I also, and this

:08:02. > :08:03.may surprise in the number of reported avoidable deaths, and this

:08:04. > :08:05.is likely to be because hospitals get better at spotting and reporting

:08:06. > :08:07.them down because Carey is deteriorating. We should also

:08:08. > :08:14.remember that when there is a tragedy in the NHS, there is always

:08:15. > :08:19.a second victim, namely the doctor or nurse involved, who invariably

:08:20. > :08:24.suffers huge anguish. Let us today also give credit to all NHS front

:08:25. > :08:29.line staff for the changes already taking place to improve patient

:08:30. > :08:33.safety. The number of people, for example, experiencing the four main

:08:34. > :08:40.hospital harms is down by a third since November 2012, Cedar freights

:08:41. > :08:43.have halved since 2010, as have MRSA, we have thousands more

:08:44. > :08:49.hospital nurses and is France's report, they are at record numbers.

:08:50. > :08:52.There is a new health care safety investigations Branch to provide

:08:53. > :08:57.speedy, no blame inquiries into avoidable harm and death modelled on

:08:58. > :09:04.a successful system operated in the airline industry for many years, and

:09:05. > :09:08.a consultation this week on legislation to create a safe space

:09:09. > :09:12.for NHS staff to talk openly about how to improve the safety of care

:09:13. > :09:13.for patients without having to worry about litigation or professional

:09:14. > :09:23.consequences. The culture of the NHS is changing

:09:24. > :09:28.following a number of tragedies but this report shows there is much

:09:29. > :09:35.progress to be made on collecting information about deaths and

:09:36. > :09:41.analysis of the results. Only by implementing its recommendations in

:09:42. > :09:43.full will we honour the memory of him and I commend this statement to

:09:44. > :09:49.the House. Can I thank the Secretary of State

:09:50. > :09:52.for advanced sight of his statement and the CQC for the report. Any

:09:53. > :09:56.death is a tragedy for families but when that death could have been

:09:57. > :09:59.prevented and was the fault of a system that was meant to care for

:10:00. > :10:06.our loved ones then the trauma is all the more difficult to cope with.

:10:07. > :10:11.The circumstances of his death was shocking and I like the Secretary of

:10:12. > :10:16.State paid tribute to his family who fought so hard for justice and so

:10:17. > :10:19.that other families don't have to go through what they went through.

:10:20. > :10:22.Connor Sparrowhawk's stepfather told Radio 5 live that when a loved one

:10:23. > :10:27.dies in care knowing how and why they died is the very least a family

:10:28. > :10:33.should be able to expect. We agree. The findings of the CQC are a

:10:34. > :10:36.wake-up call. Relatives of investigations, reasonable questions

:10:37. > :10:40.gone unanswered, grieving families made to feel like "A pain in the

:10:41. > :10:47.neck" or feeling they would be better dealt with at a "Supermarket

:10:48. > :10:51.checkout". This is unacceptable, shameful and has to change. We

:10:52. > :10:55.strongly welcome the recommendation of the national framework and the

:10:56. > :10:58.specific measures the Secretary of State outlined today. Can I assure

:10:59. > :11:01.the Secretary of State we will work with him in the Care Quality

:11:02. > :11:05.Commission to support the establishment of such a framework in

:11:06. > :11:09.a timely fashion. Families and patients should not be forgotten in

:11:10. > :11:13.this process. Will the Secretary of State pledge that families and

:11:14. > :11:19.carers will be equal partners in developing the Government's plans

:11:20. > :11:23.for the CQC's plans. This Dummett does the Secretary of State agree

:11:24. > :11:26.that those who work in the NHS show extraordinary compassion, goodwill

:11:27. > :11:29.and professionalism? And does he accept that when something

:11:30. > :11:32.tragically and sadly goes wrong it can often be the result of a number

:11:33. > :11:36.of into playing systemic failures and therefore a national framework

:11:37. > :11:42.will provide welcome standards in guidance across the service? Does

:11:43. > :11:44.the Secretary of State recalled that the national patient safety agency

:11:45. > :11:48.was responsible for monitoring patient safety incidents including

:11:49. > :11:54.medication and prescribing errors in the NHS before it was scrapped under

:11:55. > :11:58.the 2012 Health and Social Care Act? Will he acknowledge in retrospect

:11:59. > :12:01.that the scrapping of that was perhaps a mistake? For a national

:12:02. > :12:05.framework such as this to succeed and the proposed measures he has

:12:06. > :12:08.outlined to succeed investment will be necessary. Can he confirm whether

:12:09. > :12:12.hospitals and trusts will receive the extra funding to carry out the

:12:13. > :12:16.additional requirements the CQC has recommended today? Mr Speaker, more

:12:17. > :12:20.generally hospitals across England are suffering chronic staff

:12:21. > :12:24.shortages leaving doctors and nurses overstretched and struggling to do

:12:25. > :12:28.basic tasks. Will recall Sir Robert Francis QC for safe nurse staffing

:12:29. > :12:33.levels to be published by Nice, however this guidance has been

:12:34. > :12:37.blocked. Will the Secretary of State connected Nice publishing safe

:12:38. > :12:41.staffing levels as recommended by the Francis Report? The Secretary of

:12:42. > :12:43.State is aware of the wider pressures on the service. Will he

:12:44. > :12:47.acknowledged that the cuts to social care and failure to provide social

:12:48. > :12:53.care with extra investment in the Autumn Statement two weeks ago are

:12:54. > :12:55.leaving hospitals dangerously overstretched with patients at risk

:12:56. > :12:57.of harm? The Secretary of State will also be aware of the pressures on

:12:58. > :13:01.the mental health provision. Over the weekend we saw reports of bed

:13:02. > :13:04.shortages in England being such that seriously ill patients with eating

:13:05. > :13:07.disorders are having to travel hundreds of miles for treatment?

:13:08. > :13:12.Will the Secretary of State considered this, what does the

:13:13. > :13:17.Secretary of State make of this and does he consider it safe and

:13:18. > :13:22.sustainable? Can ask the Secretary of State about the heartbreaking

:13:23. > :13:25.case of the death of the baby Olivia Dixon. The Secretary of State

:13:26. > :13:28.ordered an investigation but I understand from the family that 16

:13:29. > :13:31.months down the line the investigation has not yet started.

:13:32. > :13:38.Could the Right Honourable gentleman provide the House with an update? In

:13:39. > :13:41.conclusion the CQC called for the report to be a national priority for

:13:42. > :13:46.those involved in delivering safe care to review the findings and

:13:47. > :13:53.publish a full report. We absolutely agree. Action is needed, we welcome

:13:54. > :13:57.recommendations and stand ready to work with the government to ensure

:13:58. > :14:01.the issues are no longer ignored. I'd like to thank the Shadow Health

:14:02. > :14:06.Secretary for the constructive nature of his comments and he is

:14:07. > :14:11.absolutely right to do that because this is an issue that can unite

:14:12. > :14:15.people on all sides of the House and in fairness tragedies happen in the

:14:16. > :14:19.NHS when both sides of the House are responsible for it. We all have a

:14:20. > :14:23.responsibility to work to do better than we are doing at the moment, and

:14:24. > :14:27.in particular I want to tell him how much I agree with him with his

:14:28. > :14:33.comments that front-line doctors and nurses work incredibly hard and we

:14:34. > :14:37.need to get away from a blame culture when these tragedies happen.

:14:38. > :14:40.It is the blame culture that is the root cause of why we are not

:14:41. > :14:43.learning from the problems that are happening in the way that we should

:14:44. > :14:47.because people are worried about what will happen to them personally

:14:48. > :14:51.if they speak out and we have seen this with a number of tragedies.

:14:52. > :14:58.That's why what we are trying to do with this national framework is move

:14:59. > :15:02.away from a blame culture. Of course, people have to be held

:15:03. > :15:05.accountable if there is gross negligence, if people do totally

:15:06. > :15:10.irresponsible things then there must be no hiding place and that is what

:15:11. > :15:13.families rightly insist upon, proper accountability. The vast majority of

:15:14. > :15:17.the time, people are just trying to do their jobs as best they can come

:15:18. > :15:22.and as he rightly says it is often a systemic problem that can be solved

:15:23. > :15:27.with systemic changes. That is the culture of investigation that we can

:15:28. > :15:29.see work so successfully in the airline industry and other

:15:30. > :15:34.industries we are trying to implement. I will absolutely assure

:15:35. > :15:40.him and families and carers that they will be equal partners as we

:15:41. > :15:46.develop the new national guidance. I think that was one of the most

:15:47. > :15:50.shocking things about the CQC report. I am sure it was a great

:15:51. > :15:54.surprise to many people in the NHS how excluded many families felt and

:15:55. > :16:00.we clearly have to do better in that respect. We do have different

:16:01. > :16:03.structures in place. He talked about the National patient safety agency.

:16:04. > :16:08.I paid credit to Sir Liam Donaldson who was Chief Medical Officer under

:16:09. > :16:12.the last Labour government and was a great champion of patient safety but

:16:13. > :16:14.we have different structures, the new CQC inspection regime, the

:16:15. > :16:22.health care safety investigation Branch, which I think are given

:16:23. > :16:25.equal, if not greater priority to patient safety. -- giving. With

:16:26. > :16:30.respect to the issues of funding he talked about, this is an issue we

:16:31. > :16:35.discussed on many occasions and I think he is acknowledging it with

:16:36. > :16:39.his facial expressions. The point I would make because I think we have

:16:40. > :16:42.had a good exchange and I don't want to get into the particular politics

:16:43. > :16:47.of NHS funding. The point I would make is this is a win-win because

:16:48. > :16:53.avoidable harm and death is incredibly expensive for the NHS.

:16:54. > :16:58.The time it takes to do investigations when things go wrong

:16:59. > :17:02.is utterly exhausting for the doctors, nurses, managers involved

:17:03. > :17:05.and they would much rather be doing front-line care. Preventing these

:17:06. > :17:10.things happening in the future is the best possible way of freeing up

:17:11. > :17:15.time for people on the front line. I will take away what he has said

:17:16. > :17:18.about the Elizabeth Dixon case and find out what is happening on that

:17:19. > :17:24.review. Let me finish by saying that I think the real lesson of today is

:17:25. > :17:31.that every family, every doctor and every nurse has a simple aim when a

:17:32. > :17:35.tragedy happens. It's not a money, it's to make sure that lessons are

:17:36. > :17:39.learned openly and transparently so that history doesn't repeat itself

:17:40. > :17:44.and that is really what today is about and that is why we will

:17:45. > :17:47.continue our mission to make NHS care the safest and highest quality

:17:48. > :17:54.in the world. Maria Jenkins.

:17:55. > :17:59.Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State did answer what I was going

:18:00. > :18:01.to say but I will just say, as chairman of the safety APG jig, the

:18:02. > :18:09.publication of avoidable death figures is welcome news and I would

:18:10. > :18:13.like to support what you said about creating a culture where clinicians

:18:14. > :18:19.and other staff feel safe. It is important so they can speak up about

:18:20. > :18:21.failure. It is important to deliver high quality but also safer and

:18:22. > :18:27.better value services the NHS aspires to.

:18:28. > :18:33.I'd like to thank her. She does a huge amount of work on patient

:18:34. > :18:40.safety. Not least because of sadness in her own families experiences

:18:41. > :18:45.which creates particular passion in this respect. This is absolutely

:18:46. > :18:52.about creating a just culture. There are inspiring people who lost his

:18:53. > :18:57.son at Morecambe Bay who talks more eloquently about the need to get

:18:58. > :19:02.this done. Parts of the culture is justice for future people who use

:19:03. > :19:05.the NHS to whom we have a responsibility to learn the lessons

:19:06. > :19:09.and make sure that mistakes are not repeated. One of the really

:19:10. > :19:13.important things we need to get right from today is to make sure

:19:14. > :19:16.there is a national way where something that goes wrong in one

:19:17. > :19:21.place, the lessons can be conveyed right the way across the NHS as

:19:22. > :19:25.quickly as possible. Doctor Philippa Whitford. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I

:19:26. > :19:32.welcome this statement and I remember of discussion of this case.

:19:33. > :19:35.The majority of people who come to hospital and dying hospital will be

:19:36. > :19:42.simply too ill for us to save but we mustn't be nihilistic about just

:19:43. > :19:46.imagining that applies to everybody. Particularly, the failure here was

:19:47. > :19:50.people with learning difficulties and mental health needs who were

:19:51. > :19:55.somehow just set aside and not looked at. I welcome the idea of a

:19:56. > :20:00.safety board, and I think there will be lots of things that can be

:20:01. > :20:03.learned and shared in that. I will slightly pick the Secretary of State

:20:04. > :20:06.up in that the Scottish patient safety programme which is a national

:20:07. > :20:12.programme has been running since the beginning of 2008 and part of that

:20:13. > :20:16.was to break down all of the barriers very much like in the

:20:17. > :20:20.airline business using first name terms, making it everybody's

:20:21. > :20:23.business, making even the cleaner in the theatre feel they can point out

:20:24. > :20:29.they think a mistake is going to be made. But when something happens

:20:30. > :20:32.having those adverse reviews, and certainly in my hospital we also

:20:33. > :20:37.reviewed near misses and that's something I would commend, when what

:20:38. > :20:40.might have happened would have been serious, there should be a review.

:20:41. > :20:45.Certainly in the 1's I've been involved in, family have been

:20:46. > :20:49.involved repeatedly and I think that is really important. I welcome also

:20:50. > :20:55.the idea of a safe place for whistle-blowers. Can I just say that

:20:56. > :20:59.people who have raised issues in the past and have been appallingly

:21:00. > :21:04.treated by the NHS still stand there as a terrible example to people who

:21:05. > :21:10.currently work in the NHS. So there does need to be some ability to go

:21:11. > :21:14.back to these old cases and actually do justice to people who have ended

:21:15. > :21:21.up losing their careers by trying to raise patient safety issues.

:21:22. > :21:25.I thank her for her contribution and I recognise the progress made in the

:21:26. > :21:29.Scottish patient safety programme, and particularly the inspirational

:21:30. > :21:33.leadership of Jason Leach who has done a fantastic job in Scotland and

:21:34. > :21:40.some very pioneering work. I think she makes some good points. Just in

:21:41. > :21:44.reverse order, the point about whistle-blowers is one that I asked

:21:45. > :21:48.Sir Robert Francis to look at in his second report and he concluded that

:21:49. > :21:55.it would be very difficult, if not impossible to go back over historic

:21:56. > :22:01.cases because of the reason that the courts pronounced, and it's very

:22:02. > :22:05.difficult to create a fair process in which legal judgments have

:22:06. > :22:07.already been made but I take on board what she says and I don't

:22:08. > :22:12.think that means we can't learn from what has happened from previous

:22:13. > :22:16.cases and they are very powerful voices. She is absolutely right

:22:17. > :22:18.about near misses and that is something we will be including as

:22:19. > :22:26.part of the learning from mistakes ambition. She is most right of all

:22:27. > :22:28.on the issue with Donegal people with learning disabilities. The

:22:29. > :22:34.problem we have here is deciding when a death was expected and

:22:35. > :22:39.unexpected. About half of us die in hospitals, and as she rightly says

:22:40. > :22:48.the majority of those are expected deaths. -- on the issue with

:22:49. > :22:51.learning disabilities. But making the decision that that person would

:22:52. > :22:57.have died anyway is a prejudice that we have to tackle and it is a

:22:58. > :22:59.prejudice that Connor Sparrowhawk's mother talks about extremely

:23:00. > :23:04.powerfully, and that's why we have to make sure this isn't just about

:23:05. > :23:08.lessons for the whole NHS but particularly do better for people

:23:09. > :23:12.with learning disabilities. Mr Speaker, as chair of the all-party

:23:13. > :23:16.group on learning disability, can I say to the Secretary of State, the

:23:17. > :23:20.most chilling phrase I think in the four word in this report was where

:23:21. > :23:24.Mike Richards and his team found that the level of acceptance and

:23:25. > :23:28.sense of inevitability when people with a learning disability or mental

:23:29. > :23:32.illness die early is too common. Will the Secretary of State put on

:23:33. > :23:38.the record what might Richard says in this report, that there can be no

:23:39. > :23:40.tolerance for the deaths of people with learning disabilities and

:23:41. > :23:41.treating them with any less importance than any other patient in

:23:42. > :23:52.the National Health Service? I am happy to put that on the record

:23:53. > :23:56.and say that those words have the Government's old hearted support. I

:23:57. > :24:03.would like to credit him for his work leading the APPG. Mutch the

:24:04. > :24:06.Government's wholehearted support. The reason I commissioned this

:24:07. > :24:13.report was that one year ago we had a reported to what happened at

:24:14. > :24:18.Southern Health, they said that only 19% of unexpected deaths were

:24:19. > :24:22.investigated, falling to 1% for people with learning disabilities.

:24:23. > :24:27.That cannot be acceptable and that is why it is so important we act on

:24:28. > :24:30.today's report. I seek the indulgence of the house

:24:31. > :24:34.while I raise a personal issue, this Thursday I should have been

:24:35. > :24:39.attending the inquest into my Father's death, which I anticipate

:24:40. > :24:43.will conclude was avoidable. I have been notified in our ago that one of

:24:44. > :24:47.the key witnesses will not be attending because the hospital had

:24:48. > :24:51.incorrect contact details for him, he was a local and unaware that the

:24:52. > :24:56.inquest was taking place, so it has been cancelled for the second time.

:24:57. > :25:01.Could the Secretary of State tell us whether the report has looked into

:25:02. > :25:05.the aspect of locum doctors and the pressure... The failure to learn

:25:06. > :25:09.lessons because so many people in the health service and A in

:25:10. > :25:13.particular are only coming to that hospital on a one-off occasion, and

:25:14. > :25:17.that is part of the cause of the sort of defensiveness within the

:25:18. > :25:22.system? Burst of all, I am sure the whole

:25:23. > :25:26.House will join me into offering condolences to him about what

:25:27. > :25:29.happened to his father -- first of all.

:25:30. > :25:34.Of course, the incredible grief that he and others feel when they lose a

:25:35. > :25:38.family member is just compounded if you subsequently discover that the

:25:39. > :25:42.death was avoidable. He raises a very important point. The CQC were

:25:43. > :25:46.not in this report specifically looking at the issue of locum 's but

:25:47. > :25:53.they have in many other reports are many other occasions talked about

:25:54. > :25:57.the dangers of locum and agency staff for precisely the reason he

:25:58. > :26:00.mentions. It is partly because people are not necessarily around at

:26:01. > :26:04.the time you do an investigation because they have moved on and work

:26:05. > :26:08.somewhere else, but it is partly because I believe, and I am sure we

:26:09. > :26:12.all believe, you can give better care in a team of people who know

:26:13. > :26:17.and trust each other. That is not possible if staff are... The

:26:18. > :26:23.majority are temporary based, I think he makes a very important

:26:24. > :26:28.point. Secretary of State, it is clear that

:26:29. > :26:35.half of the medical negligence claims are in the field of

:26:36. > :26:40.maternity. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that it is often

:26:41. > :26:44.the fear of legal action that prevents people speaking out, and

:26:45. > :26:49.how will that saves space be created that will not allow the lawyers to

:26:50. > :26:55.intervene? Because very often the lawyers slow up the process and an

:26:56. > :26:59.early admission of fault and a willingness to express that lessons

:27:00. > :27:05.have been learned which provides so much comfort for families.

:27:06. > :27:11.She has spoken many times about this the reality when the in the house.

:27:12. > :27:17.In the case of maternity, if a baby is born with a brain injury, serious

:27:18. > :27:24.brain injury, there will typically be a court case that lasts 11 years

:27:25. > :27:28.and a settlement that will be around ?6 million. This is a family having

:27:29. > :27:34.to cope with the shock of having a disabled child, which some families

:27:35. > :27:41.say is kind of mourning process because was not the baby they

:27:42. > :27:45.expected, but then they give their love to that child. We compound it

:27:46. > :27:49.by making them go through a legal process of over a decade, it is

:27:50. > :27:52.shocking and despicable that that happens, which is why we need to

:27:53. > :27:57.find out a way to get them the financial support they need and make

:27:58. > :28:02.sure they learn lessons more quickly, that is what this agenda is

:28:03. > :28:08.all about. Can I pay tribute to the mother of

:28:09. > :28:12.Connor Sparrowhawk, Sarah Ryan, who has fought tirelessly for justice

:28:13. > :28:15.for those with learning disabilities. I will warn the

:28:16. > :28:19.Secretary of State that I think she will take some convincing that

:28:20. > :28:23.things were really change given all the resistance she has come up with.

:28:24. > :28:31.Would he be willing to meet with her, if he has not already, to

:28:32. > :28:36.discuss the plans going forward. One key issue not covered in the report

:28:37. > :28:40.is the timeliness of investigations. A report nine months or read year

:28:41. > :28:43.after the incident is often no good at all. The organisation has moved

:28:44. > :28:54.on, people have forgotten what happened. Can I commend Mersey Care,

:28:55. > :28:56.where they do a quick investigation within 48 hours, where the

:28:57. > :29:00.information is current and people are shocked by what has happened,

:29:01. > :29:05.and they seek to implement the lessons from every tragedy?

:29:06. > :29:09.He was a big champion for people with learning disabilities when he

:29:10. > :29:13.was in my ministerial team, I want to put that on record, particularly

:29:14. > :29:19.over issues that Winterbourne View, which he brought to my attention and

:29:20. > :29:24.did a huge amount of positive work on. I have met Sarah Ryan and spoke

:29:25. > :29:28.to her again yesterday, I repeat what I said in my statement that I

:29:29. > :29:34.think that without her campaigning we would not now be making huge

:29:35. > :29:37.changes on a national level that we are making, and the other comments

:29:38. > :29:42.he has said, I wholeheartedly agree with his well.

:29:43. > :29:46.One of the findings from the review was that acute and community trusts

:29:47. > :29:51.don't always record whether the patient has a mental health or

:29:52. > :29:54.learning disability. What steps will be taken future, perhaps expansion

:29:55. > :29:58.of the psychiatry services, to make sure there is proper join up and

:29:59. > :30:05.real parity? He makes a very good point. We are

:30:06. > :30:08.making sure that they all have liaison psychiatry services by the

:30:09. > :30:13.end of this Parliament. The critical issue is that it's among the mental

:30:14. > :30:20.health problem or learning disability, for example, at the

:30:21. > :30:23.macro, they had special big and that the other patients. -- if someone

:30:24. > :30:29.with a mental health problem or learning disability, for example,

:30:30. > :30:34.turns up at A If a tragedy happens and they go on

:30:35. > :30:38.to die, which happen sometimes, sadly, if that is not known then

:30:39. > :30:43.people do not realise that there are potential other issues, which is why

:30:44. > :30:47.the report is very clear that all future trusts are required to know

:30:48. > :30:52.when they have patience with learning disabilities or mental

:30:53. > :30:55.health problems and pay particular attention in any mortality

:30:56. > :31:01.investigations that happen with those patients.

:31:02. > :31:07.The CQC has produced a grim report, and there is an even grim internal

:31:08. > :31:13.port, of the maternity services operated by the Pennine NHS Trust --

:31:14. > :31:18.and even more grim internal report. Mothers and babies have died, I have

:31:19. > :31:21.put in parliamentary questions and talk to the Chief Executive to try

:31:22. > :31:28.to find out which of those deaths was avoidable. I welcome the

:31:29. > :31:32.statement today, but is it possible to be retrospective so that the

:31:33. > :31:37.families of those people who have died in the Pennine maternity

:31:38. > :31:44.service can find out whether those deaths were preventable or not?

:31:45. > :31:48.I think as far as we possibly can, we need to investigate deaths that

:31:49. > :31:54.have already happened. When these new guidelines are published. I

:31:55. > :31:59.totally recognise the picture he says about Pennine, I share his real

:32:00. > :32:03.worry about the standard of caring that trust. I think the positive

:32:04. > :32:06.thing is that under the leadership of Sir David Dalton, the Chief

:32:07. > :32:12.Executive of Salford Royal, one of the safest trusts in the NHS, a CQC

:32:13. > :32:15.outstanding trust, things are going well. I have spoken to David about

:32:16. > :32:21.the situation at Pennine on many occasions and he is right to say

:32:22. > :32:25.there is a lot of work to do. Many people will be shocked to hear

:32:26. > :32:29.that some trusts don't even know how many inpatients have died in my car.

:32:30. > :32:34.What will my right honourable friend say about what action should be

:32:35. > :32:40.taken against boards and leaders who are negligent in this way?

:32:41. > :32:45.He is absolutely right. Bought is, of course, now have a legal duty of

:32:46. > :32:48.candour where they are obliged to tell patients the truth about what

:32:49. > :32:52.has happened when something goes wrong -- boards, of course. But how

:32:53. > :32:57.can they possibly do that if they do not properly record when they have

:32:58. > :33:02.deaths or avoidable deaths. That is why this is a very significant

:33:03. > :33:06.moment. From next year, on a quarterly basis, all trusts will be

:33:07. > :33:11.showing how many avoidable deaths they have in their trust. That will

:33:12. > :33:16.be compared to national benchmarks. That will be the way, I think, that

:33:17. > :33:22.we start to make boards feel that this is a critical responsibility

:33:23. > :33:27.they have. I welcome the learning disability

:33:28. > :33:30.mortalities review, which the Secretary of State has announced.

:33:31. > :33:34.What I would be keen to ensure is that that includes unexpected deaths

:33:35. > :33:40.in the care settings other than the NHS. When I was first elected, long

:33:41. > :33:46.Croft home, which purported to be a care home for learning disability,

:33:47. > :33:51.was actually a torture chamber for people with learning disabilities.

:33:52. > :33:54.-- Longcroft home. We have ended that type of thing, but we had to

:33:55. > :33:58.make sure that whether there are unexplained deaths of people with

:33:59. > :34:02.learning disabilities in other care settings, they are fully and best a

:34:03. > :34:07.gated and feed into the review. She is absolutely right and I will

:34:08. > :34:12.take away the issue of what the legal responsibilities are going to

:34:13. > :34:16.be for people in adult social care settings. I think one of the things

:34:17. > :34:21.that the report highlights, something I had not particularly

:34:22. > :34:23.anticipated, was the problem that a number of people with learning

:34:24. > :34:29.disabilities are cared for in multiple settings. If there is a

:34:30. > :34:33.tragedy, the place the tragedy happens may not be the place

:34:34. > :34:36.responsible for what went wrong, but often the place where they were

:34:37. > :34:40.previously never finds out that they had even died, so one of the things

:34:41. > :34:44.that Sir Mike Richards talks about is making sure that all care

:34:45. > :34:48.providers are formed very promptly when something happens so that there

:34:49. > :34:54.can be a multi-institution examination of what went wrong.

:34:55. > :34:56.Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I welcome the statement from my right

:34:57. > :35:03.honourable friend and the measures announced.

:35:04. > :35:07.I have been supporting a family of a constituent who died unexpectedly in

:35:08. > :35:13.hospital. At every step along the way, they had suffered with a wall

:35:14. > :35:16.of silence, refusal by the trust to cooperate, the CQC have refused to

:35:17. > :35:20.investigate, every step along the way they have been frustrated.

:35:21. > :35:24.This has been made even more important by the fact that the son

:35:25. > :35:28.of the disease is a doctor in the NHS and actually knows that there

:35:29. > :35:32.has been badly handled processors -- the son of the deceased. All he

:35:33. > :35:38.wants is for the NHS to learn from its mistakes. Can he undertake to

:35:39. > :35:42.say what he will do about the number of unexplained deaths that have

:35:43. > :35:46.taken place in the NHS over the past two years and whether any of those

:35:47. > :35:51.cases can be examined by an appropriate authority?

:35:52. > :35:57.I am very happy to look personally at the case that he talks about. I

:35:58. > :36:01.think he talks about all patients and families who have suffered

:36:02. > :36:06.tragedies in that the only thing people want is for lessons to be

:36:07. > :36:09.learned. I think there is sometimes a more challenging issue which is

:36:10. > :36:15.that staff do not feel empowered to speak out, they were real about the

:36:16. > :36:20.consequences. What we see is that we have a number of trusts that have an

:36:21. > :36:24.outstanding learning culture, really supportive of staff, but that is not

:36:25. > :36:28.everywhere. One of the big lessons for today is to work out how to get

:36:29. > :36:35.the positive culture spread across the NHS.

:36:36. > :36:38.On December the 15th last year, I asked the Secretary of State whether

:36:39. > :36:41.he was satisfied that families seeking truth and justice for the

:36:42. > :36:47.deaths of their loved ones had to rely on pro bono lawyers for advice

:36:48. > :36:52.and representation and crowd sourcing to get that legal advice.

:36:53. > :36:56.He said that it should never come down to lawyers, but we all know

:36:57. > :37:00.that it will, on occasion. I wonder if any of the recommendations from

:37:01. > :37:06.the CQC will follow that eventuality?

:37:07. > :37:11.It is difficult, because access to lawyers as a matter for the Ministry

:37:12. > :37:14.of Justice. I am not trying to duck the issue but my responsibility and

:37:15. > :37:19.what we are trying to do today is to try to make sure that families do

:37:20. > :37:22.not feel they need to go to lawyers, because the NHS is open and

:37:23. > :37:27.transparent enough. With the values of people in the NHS, that ought to

:37:28. > :37:30.be achievable. I am happy to look at the individual case that she raises

:37:31. > :37:34.and raise it with the Lord Chancellor.

:37:35. > :37:38.Could the Secretary of State tell the Haas more about the health care

:37:39. > :37:43.safety investigation Branch? How big will it be, who will head it, where

:37:44. > :37:47.will it be based and how locally will it use its forensic detective

:37:48. > :37:51.work to get to the nitty-gritty of these things that really cause

:37:52. > :37:55.problems for hospitals? I am happy to do that. The best

:37:56. > :37:59.example, in order to understand what we are trying to achieve, and this

:38:00. > :38:03.relates to the right honourable member for North Norfolk and what

:38:04. > :38:08.they said about the speed of the investigation, if you think of the

:38:09. > :38:11.tragedy of the Croydon tram crash that happened recently, the Rail

:38:12. > :38:13.Accident Investigation Branch produced and published a full

:38:14. > :38:18.investigation into exactly what happened within one week of that

:38:19. > :38:23.accident happening. That learning was able to be transmitted around

:38:24. > :38:27.the whole trial industry. That is what we are looking for -- the whole

:38:28. > :38:31.trial industry. We model the branch on what happens in the transport

:38:32. > :38:36.industry and we are lucky that it has already been set up, but the

:38:37. > :38:38.person heading it appears Keith Conrad, who headed up the Air

:38:39. > :38:45.Accident Investigation Branch and knows exactly how these things

:38:46. > :38:49.should happen. The CQC clearly identifies the need

:38:50. > :38:53.for a changing culture, the Secretary of State has acknowledged

:38:54. > :38:57.that in his remarks today a number of times. The NHS has to be less

:38:58. > :39:01.defensive and more honest and open with families if there is to be that

:39:02. > :39:04.genuine commitment to reflect and learn and make sure things are

:39:05. > :39:09.different in the future. What does he think about the barriers to

:39:10. > :39:11.ensuring that culture change takes place, what steps does he intend to

:39:12. > :39:19.take to overcome them? I think there are a number of

:39:20. > :39:26.barriers. One of them is time. Staff feel very pressured for time. And I

:39:27. > :39:30.strongly argue that it is a false economy not to allow time for

:39:31. > :39:33.lessons to be learned. Because actually tragedies when they happen

:39:34. > :39:38.take up a huge amount of time as well so we have to make sure that we

:39:39. > :39:41.do nonetheless have a management point of view and leadership point

:39:42. > :39:46.of view making sure that doctors and nurses are time for reflective

:39:47. > :39:51.learning as part of what they do. I think another one is the management

:39:52. > :39:57.culture. I think if people feel the management of their trust isn't

:39:58. > :40:01.open, and listening, they are more likely to be open and listening

:40:02. > :40:05.themselves. -- is open. If they feel it is a hire and fire culture they

:40:06. > :40:12.are less likely to take that approach. There are a number of

:40:13. > :40:15.lessons. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given the case at Torbay Hospital in

:40:16. > :40:20.2010 and a Parliamentary health service ombudsman concluded that so

:40:21. > :40:23.many mitigations into avoidable deaths were not fit for purpose, I

:40:24. > :40:27.welcome the statement and the spirit of openness that will follow in

:40:28. > :40:31.relation to issues that are extremely difficult. We are

:40:32. > :40:34.ultimately all mortal. With the Secretary of State reassure me on

:40:35. > :40:38.what ongoing monitoring there will be, while we will not have targets

:40:39. > :40:43.among which is right, to ensure we can work with trusts proactively to

:40:44. > :40:49.make sure the number of these incidents are reduced?

:40:50. > :40:53.First of all, I have met the parents on a number of occasions and they

:40:54. > :40:59.describe how when their son died all of the shutters came down, and I met

:41:00. > :41:02.them only a few months after I became Health Secretary and it

:41:03. > :41:08.engraved itself on my memory because it was so awful hearing. He raises a

:41:09. > :41:13.rather incentive issue which I tried to talk about in my statement. I am

:41:14. > :41:17.expecting as a result of these changes the number of reported

:41:18. > :41:22.avoidable deaths to actually increase. I don't think it will

:41:23. > :41:26.necessarily mean that patient care is suffering if that happens. We

:41:27. > :41:31.have got to be very careful in this house and with our local newspapers

:41:32. > :41:35.to say that if trusts start reporting increased reported

:41:36. > :41:39.avoidable deaths that might mean they are having a more transparent

:41:40. > :41:44.culture, they are being more open, even their standards about what is

:41:45. > :41:51.expected and what is expected to start a change as they realise as

:41:52. > :41:54.what they realise is an unexpected death there are things that could

:41:55. > :41:58.have been done to prevent it. As members we have a duty to encourage

:41:59. > :42:03.responsible reporting on this new openness and that will help staff in

:42:04. > :42:07.turn. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to

:42:08. > :42:10.pick up on a point that my honourable friend made. When a

:42:11. > :42:17.constituent of mine spoke to me, an agency nurse, she was telling me she

:42:18. > :42:22.was left in charge of a ward of 24 patients, fragile patients come on a

:42:23. > :42:26.ward she didn't know very well, some with the norovirus with only two

:42:27. > :42:31.health care professionals working with her. Given this, will the

:42:32. > :42:34.Secretary of State commits to Nice publishing safe nursing staffing

:42:35. > :42:42.levels as recommended by the Francis Report?

:42:43. > :42:46.Nice has published its staffing levels for wards. But first of all,

:42:47. > :42:50.I recognise the problem, and that was exactly what we were dealing

:42:51. > :42:55.with in the Francis Report and we have 10,000 more full-time staff

:42:56. > :43:01.now, nurses, on our hospital wards than we had three years ago so we

:43:02. > :43:06.are making significant progress but there is still huge pressure in

:43:07. > :43:10.hospital wards. I think we have now developed a new methodology which I

:43:11. > :43:14.think more accurately makes sure that patients get the care they

:43:15. > :43:17.need, whether it is a nurse for a health care assistant, or whoever in

:43:18. > :43:21.the hospital and I'm happy to write to her and tell her what the

:43:22. > :43:24.guidance is. I thank the Secretary of State for

:43:25. > :43:29.his statement, the families of those who died played a vital role in

:43:30. > :43:34.campaigning for transparency improvements. Will he join me in

:43:35. > :43:39.commending the families for their work in the most distressing of

:43:40. > :43:42.circumstances? I absolutely do and I know the family of David Hanks

:43:43. > :43:48.campaigned very strongly on this matter. I think the key point here

:43:49. > :43:53.about families is that often families are the people who know

:43:54. > :43:57.best what happened to individuals when something went wrong because

:43:58. > :44:02.they saw the carer at every single stage, whether it was in a care

:44:03. > :44:05.home, in a hospital or in AGP's surgery the family is likely to have

:44:06. > :44:08.seen everything so they can help to understand what might have gone

:44:09. > :44:15.wrong and they are a positive force in process -- GP's surgery. I'm

:44:16. > :44:18.pleased he took the time to praise campaigners in my constituency who

:44:19. > :44:23.have done so much to help to breakdown this culture of secrecy

:44:24. > :44:29.and cover-up which has afflicted to many of our trusts. He himself

:44:30. > :44:32.deserves credit for his determination as well and I hope

:44:33. > :44:39.this new tone that he has struck today it lasts and we do not go back

:44:40. > :44:44.to some of the accusatory and thick ticked if Dominic -- vindictive tone

:44:45. > :44:48.that we had in the last Parliament. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your

:44:49. > :44:55.indulgence. Can he say more about the tension there is between the

:44:56. > :44:57.family's need for individual accountability and encouraging this

:44:58. > :45:04.culture of openness where people can come forward? Yes. Two important

:45:05. > :45:11.points, in fairness. I know he worked very closely with James, one

:45:12. > :45:18.of his constituents. The tension between accountability and having a

:45:19. > :45:24.learning culture is something we are now learning the right way through.

:45:25. > :45:28.It essentially boils down to an understanding that in 98% of the

:45:29. > :45:33.time a mistake will be because of a systems problem a structure, a

:45:34. > :45:39.framework that didn't enable a doctor or a nurse to operate to the

:45:40. > :45:44.best of their ability. 2%, 1%, maybe even less, there will be genuine

:45:45. > :45:47.negligence from an individual that deserves full accountability. When

:45:48. > :45:51.you understand it's like that you start to realise the first thing to

:45:52. > :45:55.ask is what can be changed in the system? But if you uncover bad

:45:56. > :46:00.behaviour by individuals, and there is 1.3 million people in the NHS so

:46:01. > :46:08.obviously it is going to happen at some stage, then of course there

:46:09. > :46:12.needs to be full accountability. In the tone of these exchanges, I want

:46:13. > :46:16.to say something optimistic I believe the NHS can become the

:46:17. > :46:20.safest, highest quality health service in the world. I believe the

:46:21. > :46:24.party opposite would welcome that, and we would welcome it as our

:46:25. > :46:27.commitment to high standards in public services. There is no country

:46:28. > :46:31.in the world that is even considering what we have announced

:46:32. > :46:34.today, which is asking hospitals to publish on a quarterly basis is

:46:35. > :46:41.there a avoidable deaths. It is a very big step which happens in a

:46:42. > :46:46.system built around public service. Mr Speaker, Kevin, the son of my

:46:47. > :46:49.constituent Desmond Watts suffered from a very significant learning

:46:50. > :46:52.difficulties and was neglected in a care home in the County leading to

:46:53. > :46:58.his tragic death. This was completely avoidable. So Des has

:46:59. > :47:01.never seen justice for Kevin but I know what he would want is for my

:47:02. > :47:04.Right Honourable friend to consider whether it's possible to apply some

:47:05. > :47:10.of the principles he has set out today into social care. I would join

:47:11. > :47:14.the Right Honourable lady, the member for Slough, in encouraging

:47:15. > :47:17.him to do that. My Right Honourable friend makes an important point and

:47:18. > :47:21.I will have discussions with the minister responsible for social care

:47:22. > :47:23.on what we can do in the social care field. I am optimistic we can do

:47:24. > :47:29.something because with the new CQC inspection regime, if we make it

:47:30. > :47:33.part of the inspection framework which has to happen with the consent

:47:34. > :47:37.of the CQC, we can create a very strong incentive for adult social

:47:38. > :47:43.care providers to do what we want and what is happening in the NHS.

:47:44. > :47:47.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would also like to raise the issue of the

:47:48. > :47:53.appalling neglect in maternity care at Pennine acute. The report,

:47:54. > :47:57.extremely damning report, only came to light following the persistence

:47:58. > :48:01.of Jennifer Williams, a journalist on the Manchester Evening News, and

:48:02. > :48:06.the bravery of a whistle-blower at the trust. I know the Secretary of

:48:07. > :48:10.State will do what he can to protect whistle-blowers. But I would like to

:48:11. > :48:15.ask, how will he enforce a no blame culture and culture of openness in a

:48:16. > :48:18.trust like Pennine Acute, that appears to have actively tried to

:48:19. > :48:24.suppress this extremely damning report?

:48:25. > :48:28.Well, there should be no hiding place for managers who neglect their

:48:29. > :48:32.legal responsibility, which is the duty of candour that we have passed

:48:33. > :48:37.into law in 2014 in this place. That's the first point to make. I

:48:38. > :48:41.think it is also important to be realistic about the ability to

:48:42. > :48:47.impose a culture on organisations by ministerial diktats. But I think we

:48:48. > :48:53.can get there because this is something the NHS staff themselves

:48:54. > :48:57.want. The thing that is worrying about Pennine is you have Salford

:48:58. > :49:02.Royal next door virtually which is one of the best hospitals in the

:49:03. > :49:05.NHS, and the sort of learning and transition of what happened there

:49:06. > :49:09.didn't even seem to penetrate a neighbouring hospital, so that's why

:49:10. > :49:15.between hospitals we must get much better at sharing learning. Mark

:49:16. > :49:18.Pawsey. I wonder if the Secretary of State could say something about how

:49:19. > :49:22.the additional and extra information he has referred to that would be so

:49:23. > :49:28.important for patient groups to judge rates of progress, about how

:49:29. > :49:32.that will be made available. I'm happy to do that and we will lay it

:49:33. > :49:35.down in regulations in this house that that information has to be

:49:36. > :49:40.published for all trusts on a quarterly basis. But I do draw his

:49:41. > :49:43.attention to what I said in the statement that I don't think it is

:49:44. > :49:49.legitimate to compare the numbers in different trusts because different

:49:50. > :49:52.trusts will have different levels of reporting and better trusts may have

:49:53. > :49:59.higher reported avoidable deaths because they are better at picking

:50:00. > :50:05.these things up. Derek Twigg. One of the recommendations says greater

:50:06. > :50:15.parity is needed in reporting avoidable deaths. How will that

:50:16. > :50:19.happen? -- clarity. This is a complex issue but important. People

:50:20. > :50:23.with learning disabilities will be users of services of multiple

:50:24. > :50:27.organisations. This is the guidance the National quality board are going

:50:28. > :50:30.to put together before the end of March so that we can roll it out

:50:31. > :50:40.across the whole of the NHS next year. Can I first of all welcomed

:50:41. > :50:46.the Minister's statement and the Minister's comments. Would you join

:50:47. > :50:51.me in saying those greeting people are not always treated with the

:50:52. > :50:54.kindness and respect, that is not acceptable and those handling the

:50:55. > :50:59.review into the death must have the compassion and empathy to deal with

:51:00. > :51:04.families as that must be one of the qualifications for the job. I

:51:05. > :51:08.absolutely endorse what the honourable gentleman says. The point

:51:09. > :51:12.here is families and carers are part of the answer because they can help

:51:13. > :51:15.us understand what went wrong so it is in all of our interest to treat

:51:16. > :51:25.them with that kind of respect and dignity. Point of order, Mr Kevin

:51:26. > :51:28.Jones. A fundamental part of our parliamentary democracy is the right

:51:29. > :51:34.of constituents to raise concerns with their members of Parliament.

:51:35. > :51:38.Dawna Knight, my constituent, raised with me the terrible treatment she

:51:39. > :51:44.had from the hospital medical group following cosmetic surgery, and I

:51:45. > :51:48.have raised her case on a number of occasions with ministers on the

:51:49. > :51:53.floor of the House. Last week she and Lorna Kidd, a constituent of the

:51:54. > :51:59.Right Honourable member for Ipswich, received solicitors' letters from

:52:00. > :52:03.Schilling solicitors on behalf of the hospital group threatening them

:52:04. > :52:06.with legal action if they would discuss their cases with a third

:52:07. > :52:13.party, including their members of Parliament. I know the member for

:52:14. > :52:17.Ipswich had already written to you concerning his constituent. Could I

:52:18. > :52:21.ask you, Mr Speaker, to look at this case because this is fundamental to

:52:22. > :52:25.the way we operate in terms of allowing our constituents to raise

:52:26. > :52:29.their concerns with us. I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman for his

:52:30. > :52:32.point of order and indeed for his courtesy in giving the advance

:52:33. > :52:36.notice of it. I can also confirm I have received the letter to which

:52:37. > :52:43.the honourable gentleman refers and it is a letter to which I shall be

:52:44. > :52:49.replying in due course. Any attempt to impede an honourable member going

:52:50. > :52:56.about his or her Parliamentary business is potentially a contempt.

:52:57. > :53:00.In such circumstances I would ask the honourable member in the first

:53:01. > :53:06.instance to write to me about this matter. I hope that that is helpful,

:53:07. > :53:12.both to the honourable gentleman and more widely to the House. If there

:53:13. > :53:20.are no further points of order, we come now to the Ten Minute Rule

:53:21. > :53:24.Motion, Mr Gareth Thomas. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that leave be

:53:25. > :53:26.given to bring in a build of the transfer of ownership of the Royal

:53:27. > :53:31.Bank of Scotland to its customers and employees and for connected

:53:32. > :53:34.purposes. Mr Speaker, taxpayers saved the Royal Bank of Scotland,

:53:35. > :53:38.now in my opinion they should be allowed to own it. It should become

:53:39. > :53:41.a people's bank which every taxpaying British citizens would

:53:42. > :53:45.have the right to become a part owner of. The Royal building society

:53:46. > :53:51.of Scotland would be a decisive break with the disastrous Fred

:53:52. > :53:56.Goodwin era. Mr Speaker, there are new entrants to the banking market

:53:57. > :54:00.and there have been many reforms to banking regulation. Many of which

:54:01. > :54:03.have made a difference. But the structural problem in Britain's

:54:04. > :54:07.banking market, a lack of competition between different types

:54:08. > :54:12.of financial services institutions, is as bad now as it was in 2008 and

:54:13. > :54:17.is arguably worse following the banking mergers that the crash

:54:18. > :54:24.precipitated. The problems of 2008 can be traced back in part directly

:54:25. > :54:27.to 1992 when the wave of building society demutualisation is began.

:54:28. > :54:33.Whilst only ten of the 89 to that existed then demutualised, because

:54:34. > :54:39.those ten were among the largest they represented around 70% of the

:54:40. > :54:44.mutual sector's assets at the time. Before 1992 in the UK and still now

:54:45. > :54:48.and the rest of Europe banking services are provided by financial

:54:49. > :54:51.services providers with a range of different ownership structures and

:54:52. > :54:57.therefore with different incentives and business ambitions.

:54:58. > :55:03.After 1992, the gradual takeover of most of the big players in the

:55:04. > :55:08.building society world led to a steady decline and deterioration in

:55:09. > :55:12.competition in banking in the UK. Whilst many other countries had

:55:13. > :55:17.serious problems in their banking sector, few others suffered as much

:55:18. > :55:21.as the UK and, crucially, few others were so dominated by traditional

:55:22. > :55:25.shareholder investor owned banks. Each of the last two governments

:55:26. > :55:31.have been wrong, in my view, to leave in place what is effectively a

:55:32. > :55:42.cartel of the major banks, with just one

:55:43. > :55:44.building society challenging their dominance.

:55:45. > :55:46.There have been persistent concerns about the level of competition in

:55:47. > :55:49.and the structure of the banking market, which finally, I am pleased

:55:50. > :55:51.to say, led to the Competition and Markets Authority being called in to

:55:52. > :55:53.investigate. In August last year they publish their retail banking

:55:54. > :55:56.market conclusions. For anyone tempted to think that banking is now

:55:57. > :55:59.wholly reformed and properly functioning, the report makes

:56:00. > :56:04.sobering reading. The CMA report describes the

:56:05. > :56:07.personal banking market as being concentrated, but concentration

:56:08. > :56:10.levels have increased since the crisis and the competition is not

:56:11. > :56:16.working well. For lending to small and medium-size

:56:17. > :56:22.businesses, the CMA knows that the four largest providers, RBS, Lloyds,

:56:23. > :56:29.Barclays and HSBC, together had a combined market share of over 80%,

:56:30. > :56:32.and new entrants had reduced their market share by just 1%.

:56:33. > :56:36.They found there had been little product innovation in SME lending

:56:37. > :56:41.and went on to note the adverse effects on competition and personal

:56:42. > :56:44.banking, basic current accounts and SME lending caused by the

:56:45. > :56:51.combination of persistent concentration in the market and the

:56:52. > :56:56.very high barriers to entry and expansion for new lenders.

:56:57. > :57:01.Almost 60% of banking staff working just two banking groups. In terms of

:57:02. > :57:05.branch networks, almost 70% of banking branches are held by just

:57:06. > :57:10.three banks. In 2014, of the top ten banking

:57:11. > :57:14.groups by market share for personal current accounts, only two could

:57:15. > :57:20.reasonably be described as mutual and only one had a market share of

:57:21. > :57:28.5% or higher. What was striking about the remedies package advanced

:57:29. > :57:30.by the CMA is that they did not consider reforms to the ownership

:57:31. > :57:33.model of any of the major banks as a possible part of the solution. They

:57:34. > :57:37.did discuss the idea of breaking up the big banks but, I repeat, did not

:57:38. > :57:41.discuss changing the ownership model.

:57:42. > :57:46.State ownership of RBS has steadied a sinking Titanic, but it has not

:57:47. > :57:52.fundamentally changed that key structural weakness in British

:57:53. > :57:55.banking, the lack of competition in British banking between different

:57:56. > :57:59.types of financial services business. Full private ownership of

:58:00. > :58:03.all the big banks, the stated aim of the last two governments, is only

:58:04. > :58:05.likely to exacerbate the lack of competition. There has been

:58:06. > :58:12.discussion about neutralising one of the banks, for some time the

:58:13. > :58:16.co-operative tried, ultimately unsuccessfully, to consider the

:58:17. > :58:20.re-neutralisation of Northern Rock. But now for slightly different

:58:21. > :58:25.reasons, I suspect, we're willing to countenance that option. There has

:58:26. > :58:29.been consistent support across all the main parties for reinvigorating

:58:30. > :58:34.competition and choice in the banking sector. Firstly by fostering

:58:35. > :58:39.more diversity and secondly by promoting mutuals. The case for

:58:40. > :58:43.neutralising RBS rather than selling the rest of its shares at some

:58:44. > :58:48.future point on the open market is partly to encourage that more

:58:49. > :58:52.diverse group of big banking businesses, partly to enhance the

:58:53. > :59:01.ritual mass of the mutual sector and partly to accelerate the practice of

:59:02. > :59:05.RBS itself. And you held in, then of the Bank of England, has ordered

:59:06. > :59:08.that a more mixed system of different corporate structures is

:59:09. > :59:13.likely to produce a more stable financial system -- Andrew held

:59:14. > :59:17.Dane. I am not making the case for

:59:18. > :59:22.mutuals, per se, although I declare an interest as chair of the

:59:23. > :59:29.all-party mutuals group. It is more the systemic advantages

:59:30. > :59:32.of a mix of banks and mutuals that turning RBS into the Royal Building

:59:33. > :59:37.Society of Scotland would deliver. Mutuals, though affected by the

:59:38. > :59:41.downturn, were more stable than proprietary traditional banks. Given

:59:42. > :59:45.the huge barriers to entry to setting up a new mutual of any

:59:46. > :59:48.significant size in financial services and make sense to explore

:59:49. > :00:01.the neutralising the mature business as well as concerning the existing

:00:02. > :00:05.mutuals. There is an opportunity to consider an alternative to either

:00:06. > :00:14.state or private ownership. No one thinks the Government will get its

:00:15. > :00:17.money back from the share of RBS -- sale of RBS sales. The Office for

:00:18. > :00:23.Budget Responsibility no longer factors in any sale of RBS shares in

:00:24. > :00:29.this Parliament, and those sold resulted in a net loss of ?1 billion

:00:30. > :00:36.to the taxpayer. A mutualising Asian of RBS would not mean that its debt

:00:37. > :00:44.to the taxpayer can be returned to the taxpayer. An acid log for the

:00:45. > :00:47.new royal building society of Scotland would be needed to make

:00:48. > :00:56.sure that members, ie customers or employees, would benefit only from

:00:57. > :01:03.their ongoing financial behaviour with the business. Membership of the

:01:04. > :01:07.new society would not lead to a hand-out, said members would have no

:01:08. > :01:12.incentive other than to see the business stick to its core

:01:13. > :01:16.activities. The trade sale of RBS shares was to other financial

:01:17. > :01:21.services players. If Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and Morgan Stanley are

:01:22. > :01:25.allowed to continue that, it will simply reinforce ownership of the

:01:26. > :01:31.big banks by the wealthiest in our country and beyond.

:01:32. > :01:34.A Royal building society -- Royal Building Society would be the chance

:01:35. > :01:39.to change culture fundamentally as one of Britain's biggest financial

:01:40. > :01:44.players, and to inject some competitive energy and dynamism into

:01:45. > :01:48.what is, to all intents and purposes, still a monopoly industry.

:01:49. > :01:52.I begged to leave. The question is that the honourable

:01:53. > :01:58.member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of that opinion

:01:59. > :02:07.say aye. To the contrary no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Who

:02:08. > :02:12.will prepare and bring in the Bill? Ryan Davies, Stella Creasy, Mark

:02:13. > :02:15.Hendrick, Luciana Berger, my gates, Karen Buckley Christina Rees and, on

:02:16. > :02:17.this issue, the excellent Steve Baker and myself.

:02:18. > :02:53.Thank you. The mutualisation of the Royal Bank

:02:54. > :02:57.of Scotland Bill. Second reading what day? The 24th of March 2000 and

:02:58. > :03:03.17. Thank you. We now come to the

:03:04. > :03:12.emergency debate on international action to protect civilians in

:03:13. > :03:22.Aleppo and more widely across Syria. Mr Andrea Mitchell? -- Andrew.

:03:23. > :03:25.I beg to move that this has has considered international action to

:03:26. > :03:30.protect civilian -- protect civilians in Aleppo and Syria. The

:03:31. > :03:35.honourable lady for Wirral South, with whom I co-chaired the friends

:03:36. > :03:39.of Syria all-party Parliamentary group, joins me in thanking you for

:03:40. > :03:43.granting this emergency debates. Both of us are concerned that on

:03:44. > :03:48.occasions these sorts of motions can appear to be hand-wringing and to

:03:49. > :03:54.focus on the concept that something must be done. We are very anxious

:03:55. > :03:59.that today we encourage the Government to pursue all avenues and

:04:00. > :04:04.options, as I know the British Government is extremely anxious to

:04:05. > :04:08.do. The House will be particularly grateful to the Foreign Secretary

:04:09. > :04:13.for himself responding to this debate. On the earlier occasion that

:04:14. > :04:17.you granted an emergency debate on these matters, the Foreign Secretary

:04:18. > :04:21.also return to the House and made his first major speech from the

:04:22. > :04:25.dispatch box, and I believe it signifies the concern of Foreign

:04:26. > :04:30.Office ministers about the tragedy that is Aleppo today. Mr Speaker,

:04:31. > :04:35.there are three points that I wish to cover this afternoon. The first

:04:36. > :04:41.is the current situation in Aleppo today. The second is specific

:04:42. > :04:46.suggestions for the to consider, together with our allies. The third

:04:47. > :04:51.is some observations on how this crisis could develop in 2017 and the

:04:52. > :04:59.action the international community should take. So I started a position

:05:00. > :05:04.today on the ground. We are able to monitor to some extent what is going

:05:05. > :05:09.on through Twitter and social media, in particular the reports of the

:05:10. > :05:15.mighty nations and its agencies and of the International Red Cross, they

:05:16. > :05:19.are likely to be extremely accurate. They have reported over lunchtime

:05:20. > :05:25.that there is clear evidence of civilians being executed and shot on

:05:26. > :05:30.the spot. There are dead bodies in the street which cannot be reached

:05:31. > :05:35.because of gunfire. In the last couple of hours we have heard there

:05:36. > :05:40.are probably more than 100 children who are unaccompanied or separated

:05:41. > :05:48.from their families who are trapped in a building under under heavy fire

:05:49. > :05:53.in East Aleppo. Mr Speaker, we learn from independent sources that are

:05:54. > :05:57.totally credible inside Aleppo that all the hospitals have been

:05:58. > :06:02.deliberately destroyed by a barrel bombs and bunker busting bombs, and

:06:03. > :06:08.that in case the people who were in those hospitals were not destroyed

:06:09. > :06:13.by those munitions, cluster munitions, antipersonnel munitions,

:06:14. > :06:18.have also been used. There are pop-up clinics in underground

:06:19. > :06:23.locations. They are suffering Mike Maccagnan vision is with people

:06:24. > :06:26.lying on the floor in pools of blood everywhere, doctors and nurses

:06:27. > :06:32.wearing boots because there is so much blood on the floor. Casualties

:06:33. > :06:36.move in and out as fast as they possibly can because there are grave

:06:37. > :06:42.dangers to them from being in those locations. The ambulances of the

:06:43. > :06:50.White helmets have been specifically targeted and there is no know fuel

:06:51. > :06:53.available to them. The ten kilometre by ten climate zone which is the

:06:54. > :07:02.centre of fighting in Aleppo is contracting, and it was probably

:07:03. > :07:05.less than half our capacity. There are approximately 150,000 civilians

:07:06. > :07:13.crammed into this area and very large numbers of children. There are

:07:14. > :07:18.large numbers stranded in the open and looking for shelter. The only

:07:19. > :07:22.food available is dates and bulgar wheat, water has run out, there is

:07:23. > :07:28.no electricity, and last night people were flooding into this on

:07:29. > :07:34.clay. There are, as I say, credible reports of executions and the

:07:35. > :07:37.removal of groups of adult males. -- last night people were flooding into

:07:38. > :07:41.this enclave. I thank him for giving way and he

:07:42. > :07:46.paints a grim picture of the current situation in Aleppo. Two years ago I

:07:47. > :07:50.travelled with the honourable member opposite to Srebrenica and we

:07:51. > :07:56.visited an exhibition in Sarajevo of pictures from Srebrenica and Syria

:07:57. > :08:02.and they were indistinguishable. When we hear about executions, the

:08:03. > :08:06.disappearance of men and boys, do we not feel that we're running the risk

:08:07. > :08:12.of this becoming the Srebrenica of our generation? He makes a point,

:08:13. > :08:16.which I will come to directly. These terrified civilians in Aleppo

:08:17. > :08:24.sophisticated, educated people from what was one of the great cities of

:08:25. > :08:26.the world. With 2 million people, 6000 years old, treasured Islamic

:08:27. > :08:34.civilisation and artefacts within it. A senior Aleppo resident,

:08:35. > :08:39.terrified, said the following this morning. The human corridor needs to

:08:40. > :08:45.happen. If the British Government is serious about fighting terror, they

:08:46. > :08:49.can't ignore state terror. Doing so creates so many more enemies and if

:08:50. > :08:51.they offer but empty words, nobody will ever believe them in the

:08:52. > :08:58.future. Mr Speaker, this country along with

:08:59. > :09:03.the entire international community, ten years ago embraced the

:09:04. > :09:06.responsibility to protect, a doctrine that said that nation

:09:07. > :09:13.states, great and small, with great fanfare, will not allow the strips

:09:14. > :09:18.-- Srebrenica, Rwanda and other appalling events in Darfur to take

:09:19. > :09:25.place again. This responsibility to protect was signed up to with great

:09:26. > :09:29.fanfare and embraced by all of the international community, great and

:09:30. > :09:35.small. Yet here we are today witnessing, complicit to what is

:09:36. > :09:40.happening to tens of thousands of Syrians in Aleppo. Mr speaker,

:09:41. > :09:43.that's the situation today, and I come to my second point, which is

:09:44. > :09:47.specific actions I would like to put to the Government and which I know

:09:48. > :09:53.they will wish to consider. The first of these is that there is an

:09:54. > :09:57.urgent need for humanitarian teams to be deployed and given unfettered

:09:58. > :10:03.access to Aleppo once government forces there are in control. It is

:10:04. > :10:07.essential if we are to avoid the same circumstances as Srebrenica,

:10:08. > :10:11.the precise point the honourable gentleman has just made. That, and

:10:12. > :10:17.there is a very serious danger from the position I have described, that

:10:18. > :10:22.such events are already taking place, that these teams are

:10:23. > :10:31.deployed. We need to get immediately food, medicine and fuel and medical

:10:32. > :10:34.services into East Aleppo. We also need to have independent

:10:35. > :10:38.humanitarian eyes and ears on the ground to not only give confidence

:10:39. > :10:42.to terrified civilians, who, as I remind the House, are caught out in

:10:43. > :10:47.the opening temperatures which tonight are predicted to fall below

:10:48. > :10:55.minus four degrees. But also they need be deployed to avoid possible

:10:56. > :10:59.false allegations of breaches of international humanitarian law by

:11:00. > :11:02.government forces and their military associates. It is not easy, Mr

:11:03. > :11:08.Speaker, to see why Russia and Syria would wish to resist this, unless

:11:09. > :11:12.they do not wish the world to know or see the actions they are now

:11:13. > :11:19.taking in Aleppo. The second action, which I hope the Government will

:11:20. > :11:26.evaluate and support, is to organise the evacuation to comparative safety

:11:27. > :11:30.in United Nations buses and lorries under a white flag and in a

:11:31. > :11:32.permissive environment the people who are wounded or who have been

:11:33. > :11:36.caught up in this terrible catastrophe. It is clear that there

:11:37. > :11:40.is the capacity from the United Nations with vehicles that are

:11:41. > :11:45.available to move north up to the Costello Road and West to about how

:11:46. > :11:51.Nirat Hanley on the border which Clare Short, form most distinguished

:11:52. > :11:59.developer secretary in this house, and I, visited earlier this year.

:12:00. > :12:06.There are hospitals and significant refugee facilities on the Syrian

:12:07. > :12:09.side of the border. They are easily resupplied by the crossing. This

:12:10. > :12:12.route out of the nightmare of eastern Aleppo by humanitarian

:12:13. > :12:19.actors should be made available as fast as possible and Britain is in a

:12:20. > :12:22.pivotal position at the United Nations to try and convene an

:12:23. > :12:28.acceptance that this is the action that should be taken. We are hugely

:12:29. > :12:33.respected on humanitarian matters at the United Nations. Matthew Rycroft,

:12:34. > :12:36.the permanent secretary there, permanent member of the UN five on

:12:37. > :12:43.the Security Council, is extremely effective in what he does. The

:12:44. > :12:48.current national security adviser, the key United Nations operative for

:12:49. > :12:53.many years, has great convening power. There are senior UK officials

:12:54. > :13:00.at the United Nations, Steven O'Brien who worked with me at DFID,

:13:01. > :13:02.plays a pivotal role. Mr Speaker, the British foreign service,

:13:03. > :13:09.respected and admired around the world, supporting Staffan de Mistura

:13:10. > :13:16.and Yannick Noah land, has a pivotal role to play in trying to convene

:13:17. > :13:20.the consensus now urgently required. I'm grateful for to him for making a

:13:21. > :13:24.powerful and important speech. Does he think the Syrian regime would

:13:25. > :13:29.allow these necessary humanitarian interventions without counterattack?

:13:30. > :13:36.I believe that if the Russians could be persuaded at this point that they

:13:37. > :13:39.have nothing to lose from allowing international humanitarian actors

:13:40. > :13:43.into a Aleppo then the Syrians would agree, and if they would not agree

:13:44. > :13:47.the world must ask why it is they wish to hide from that sort of

:13:48. > :13:55.humanitarian, purely humanitarian action. I'm grateful to him for

:13:56. > :13:59.giving way and he's making an important point about the importance

:14:00. > :14:03.of international pressure. He will have seen, as we all did, the

:14:04. > :14:09.grotesque story on the front of the morning Star, suggesting what is

:14:10. > :14:14.happening is a liberation of of Aleppo. While there is such

:14:15. > :14:18.scandalous propaganda on behalf of Russia being put about within the

:14:19. > :14:23.UK, isn't it even more important than the international pressure

:14:24. > :14:27.opens up the eyes of everyone in the world to what is actually happening.

:14:28. > :14:30.I confess to the honourable gentleman that the morning Star is

:14:31. > :14:35.not on my morning reading list and in view of what he has just said I'm

:14:36. > :14:38.most unlikely to add it. Would the Foreign Secretary, today that

:14:39. > :14:44.Britain will use every sinew of this immensely impressive diplomatic

:14:45. > :14:52.machine which I described, to secure a consensus for these two actions in

:14:53. > :14:54.these last moments for Aleppo? I'm grateful to my Right Honourable

:14:55. > :14:58.friend and sorry I cannot stay for the whole of the debate because of a

:14:59. > :15:02.concurrent meeting of the Foreign Affairs Committee. While I agree

:15:03. > :15:05.with him about the efforts to relieve the situation in Aleppo, a

:15:06. > :15:09.year ago 20 nations sat around a table and produce an agreement about

:15:10. > :15:12.the future of Syria, the international Syrian support group.

:15:13. > :15:15.Does he agree that our efforts have also got to get back about the

:15:16. > :15:17.politics of the whole international community into the same place on the

:15:18. > :15:31.future of Syria? He is absolutely correct. Mr

:15:32. > :15:35.Speaker, I come to my third and final point about the House wanting

:15:36. > :15:46.to look to the future. What can we do about Democrats part of the

:15:47. > :15:49.international community this catastrophe? After an unfortunate

:15:50. > :15:54.sequence of events the international community has so far been completely

:15:55. > :16:01.unable to help. The United Nations has been hobbled by Russian actions

:16:02. > :16:06.using the veto they have been privileged to use the Security

:16:07. > :16:12.Council to shield themselves from criticism and to stop international

:16:13. > :16:18.action in respect of Syria. The curve Vian and plan originally put

:16:19. > :16:22.forward by the UN was, in my view, tragically and wrongly rejected by

:16:23. > :16:28.the American government. The Russians have in their turn been

:16:29. > :16:32.shredding a rules -based system which will have cataclysmic effects

:16:33. > :16:35.on international law and international humanitarian law and

:16:36. > :16:42.international human rights. The Americans have been absent, and

:16:43. > :16:44.crucially President Obama made it clear that were chemical weapons to

:16:45. > :16:48.be used that would cross a redline and America would take action.

:16:49. > :16:54.Chemical weapons were used and no action was taken by the Americans.

:16:55. > :16:58.This house, in my view, was ill-advised to reject the former

:16:59. > :17:02.Prime Minister's motion in August 2013 for British action to take

:17:03. > :17:06.place, and I hope that the government will keep an open mind

:17:07. > :17:11.about putting another resolution before the House as is necessary.

:17:12. > :17:14.I'm extremely grateful to my Right Honourable friend for the powerful

:17:15. > :17:18.case he's making and the leadership he has demonstrated on this issue

:17:19. > :17:22.but would he concede that the motion in 2013 was not on a comprehensive

:17:23. > :17:27.plan to bring peace and that if a motion is brought before this house

:17:28. > :17:32.it should be a comprehensive UN backed plan to deliver peace and not

:17:33. > :17:36.on such a narrow mission? Well, I certainly hope that if there is a

:17:37. > :17:40.chance for Britain, with a pivotal role at the United Nations, to

:17:41. > :17:45.support them if necessary with military action, a UN backed force

:17:46. > :17:49.that Britain will very seriously consider it and such a proposition

:17:50. > :17:54.will be put before the House of Commons. Mr Speaker, I was listing

:17:55. > :17:58.the unfortunate coincidence of events which has hobbled the

:17:59. > :18:01.international community. The fourth one is of course that the Arab

:18:02. > :18:07.states of the region are irredeemably split on what should

:18:08. > :18:13.happen now in Syria. And Europe has become dysfunctional, facing

:18:14. > :18:16.inwards, and not looking outwards, focused on the symptoms of this

:18:17. > :18:23.problem, the refugees, and not on the causes, and a resurgent Russia

:18:24. > :18:29.is pursuing its interests. I say to the House that we should understand

:18:30. > :18:35.Russia's interests and respect them, even as her actions are rightly

:18:36. > :18:38.condemned and we confront them when they breach international

:18:39. > :18:43.humanitarian law, as they have undoubtedly done in Aleppo. Mr

:18:44. > :18:47.Speaker, there are only two ways in which this catastrophe will end.

:18:48. > :18:51.There will either be a military victory, or there will be a

:18:52. > :18:57.negotiation. There is not going to be a military victory. So at some

:18:58. > :19:05.point there will be a negotiation and a ceasefire to enable bits of

:19:06. > :19:08.the antagonistic foes to negotiate. When that time comes, Mr Speaker,

:19:09. > :19:14.Britain has the experience, the connections, the funds and expertise

:19:15. > :19:17.to assist. And the great powers must support that negotiation, however

:19:18. > :19:23.difficult it is, and put pressure on the regional powers to do the same.

:19:24. > :19:27.It is essential that we provide, through our position at the UN, the

:19:28. > :19:34.strongest possible diplomatic and strategic support to that process.

:19:35. > :19:38.They will come a moment too, Mr Speaker, when President-elect Trump

:19:39. > :19:42.and President Putin are able to discuss these matters. There are

:19:43. > :19:46.indications, as is widely recognised, that the two men can do

:19:47. > :19:51.business. I hope that the United States will lift their veto on Assad

:19:52. > :19:56.being part of any negotiations. Assad is part of the problem and

:19:57. > :19:59.therefore by definition part of the solution. And that Russia will use

:20:00. > :20:08.its power to stop the conflict on the ground while both combined to

:20:09. > :20:14.defeat Isil. Finally, I say to the Foreign Secretary, will he intensify

:20:15. > :20:17.the efforts of his office to collect evidence, especially now, of

:20:18. > :20:23.breaches of international humanitarian law and war crimes so

:20:24. > :20:27.that individuals as well as states, no matter how long it takes, can be

:20:28. > :20:36.held to account one-day for what they have done? The question is,

:20:37. > :20:39.that this house has considered international action to protect

:20:40. > :20:48.civilians in Aleppo and more widely across Syria. Emily Thornberry.

:20:49. > :20:51.Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I congratulate the honourable member

:20:52. > :20:54.for Sutton Coldfield and the member for the Wirral South for securing

:20:55. > :20:58.this emergency debate. I would also like to compliment the Right

:20:59. > :21:02.Honourable member for Sutton Coldfield for speaking with his

:21:03. > :21:06.customary force and authority and the way in which he spoke out for

:21:07. > :21:09.the people of Aleppo persistently. We on this side of the House will

:21:10. > :21:15.always remember that it was he who took up Labour's fight to meet the

:21:16. > :21:18.0.7% aid target after he became International Development Secretary

:21:19. > :21:22.in 2010 and following the Chancellor's word yesterday, that

:21:23. > :21:26.may be a fight we need to resume in coming years. I'm sure the Right

:21:27. > :21:29.Honourable member will be on our side again. Mr Speaker, since our

:21:30. > :21:33.last emergency debate on Aleppo just two months ago, every worst

:21:34. > :21:38.prediction made that day has happened. We all warned that

:21:39. > :21:44.grotesque war crimes being committed by Russia and the Assad regime would

:21:45. > :21:48.only intensify, and so that proved. We all warned of the increasing

:21:49. > :21:53.humanitarian crisis with thousands of civilians still trapped in Aleppo

:21:54. > :21:57.desperately short of food, water, medical supplies and shelter. That

:21:58. > :22:01.crisis has only got worse. Finally, we all warned that if nothing

:22:02. > :22:06.changed, Eastern Aleppo would be destroyed by Christmas and that is

:22:07. > :22:09.exactly what is coming to pass. Mr Speaker, it was depressing to read

:22:10. > :22:13.in recent days the accounts of the talks that have taken place in

:22:14. > :22:18.Washington said to have gone on for months about the technical options

:22:19. > :22:22.for making airdrops of humanitarian supplies into Aleppo. The subject

:22:23. > :22:26.raised recently in this house by my honourable friend the member for

:22:27. > :22:28.Wirral South. According to the Guardian, the last meeting on the

:22:29. > :22:33.subject of airdrops collapsed because of fears, and I quote, "That

:22:34. > :22:38.by the time any airdrop took place there wouldn't be anyone left to

:22:39. > :22:44.save." It was equally depressing and chastening to read the text said

:22:45. > :22:47.yesterday by a doctor in East Aleppo described as his farewell message,

:22:48. > :22:52.and he wrote "Remember there was once a city called Aleppo, that the

:22:53. > :22:56.world erased from history." And while we have all condemned Russia

:22:57. > :22:59.and Assad for their actions in Eastern Aleppo, and we must ensure

:23:00. > :23:05.that one day they are held to account, while we equally condemn

:23:06. > :23:09.Iran and the role they have played in this massacre, we must remember

:23:10. > :23:12.the words of that doctor who did not just blame those directly

:23:13. > :23:16.responsible for destroying his city, but for the world as a whole for

:23:17. > :23:21.allowing that to happen. It was a global, collective failure. Every

:23:22. > :23:24.bit as great command I agree with the Right Honourable member and my

:23:25. > :23:30.Right Honourable friend behind me, every bit as great as Srebrenica.

:23:31. > :23:34.The question, Mr Speaker, is what do we do now? This boils down in my

:23:35. > :23:38.view to four points and I will go through them. First we must take

:23:39. > :23:42.every diplomatic step to press in Russia and Iran to allow safe

:23:43. > :23:46.passage from East Aleppo, not just for the remaining fighters and their

:23:47. > :23:50.families, but for medical professionals, journalists and

:23:51. > :23:54.others. Many of us may have watched the extremely moving inside Aleppo

:23:55. > :23:58.films that Channel 4 have been showing. They are filmed by a young

:23:59. > :24:03.mother, not a camerawoman and not a journalist. She is a young woman

:24:04. > :24:06.dumb mother who is 25 and a citizen of Aleppo married to a doctor, and

:24:07. > :24:10.his professional duties have kept them in the city even after all the

:24:11. > :24:14.other civilians, or many of the other civilians, have fled. Is

:24:15. > :24:18.difficult to imagine the terror they feel, because we have read the

:24:19. > :24:22.messages for ourselves. We must take it clear to Russia and Iran that

:24:23. > :24:27.those civilians must be given safe passage from the city, or be

:24:28. > :24:32.protected if they remain. I've been told by a number of sources,

:24:33. > :24:37.journalists, the United Nations and the Red Cross, that there is

:24:38. > :24:39.currently a building, some call it the last remaining hospital, some

:24:40. > :24:43.say it was simply a building that people had moved into in the last

:24:44. > :24:49.few days. A building where there are hundreds of children, hundreds of

:24:50. > :24:53.injured, 110 medical staff, and they are in this makeshift building and

:24:54. > :24:57.they are trapped. There have been negotiations with the Russians and

:24:58. > :24:59.Syrian government and the Russians have said that whilst the fighters

:25:00. > :25:06.and their families will be allowed to leave, the so-called civilians

:25:07. > :25:11.and activists will not. The activists, they are referring to,

:25:12. > :25:14.medical staff. Why would it be that medical staff would not be allowed

:25:15. > :25:18.to leave? They must remain in the city, according to the Russians, and

:25:19. > :25:22.presumably face the shelling. Presumably they have a higher chance

:25:23. > :25:29.of being massacred by the regime, or at the very least detained. How can

:25:30. > :25:30.it be that men with guns can go out of his now Aleppo but men with

:25:31. > :25:39.stethoscopes cannot? Perhaps I can offer my honourable

:25:40. > :25:43.friend a reply to that, the men of guns have got a very high chance of

:25:44. > :25:46.being killed in some future conflict but the citizen journalists and the

:25:47. > :25:51.humanitarian doctors and nurses to which you refer, are credible

:25:52. > :25:55.witnesses in any future criminal proceedings, and Russia and Syria

:25:56. > :26:03.have every incentive to make sure that the evidence is never given to

:26:04. > :26:06.the world. And I think the Right Honourable Lady makes a very

:26:07. > :26:09.powerful point and it echoes what has been said earlier about the

:26:10. > :26:14.importance of allowing aid workers and independent people into that

:26:15. > :26:21.area in order to be witnesses. In order to witness what has been going

:26:22. > :26:25.on. Mr Speaker, once the fighting in Aleppo has ended, and an end may

:26:26. > :26:29.well come very soon, the question is, how do we get humanitarian

:26:30. > :26:33.relief to the citizens still left in East Aleppo and those who have fled

:26:34. > :26:37.elsewhere, particularly as has been stated as the temperatures begin to

:26:38. > :26:41.Summit and the need for shelter and blankets becomes as great as the

:26:42. > :26:45.need for food, water and medical supplies. As I have said, not only

:26:46. > :26:50.that, but also the need for there to be witnesses to the aftermath. And

:26:51. > :26:56.if Russia and Assad continue to block road convoys into the area,

:26:57. > :27:00.then surely the government must buy an extent that we have reached the

:27:01. > :27:04.point of last resort when the previous Foreign Secretary promised

:27:05. > :27:09.that their drops would be used. If we fear that manned flights would be

:27:10. > :27:14.too dangerous as I know, the honourable gentleman sitting next to

:27:15. > :27:18.the Foreign Secretary does, then the government must consider using

:27:19. > :27:26.unmanaged drones or GPS guided parachutes. Thank you Mr Speaker,

:27:27. > :27:32.I'm really concerned about the idea, that we would send our aircraft,

:27:33. > :27:39.into airspace that is contested, and is hostile. They fly low, they drop

:27:40. > :27:43.aid as I know, very low, they can be taken out by ground fire, not just

:27:44. > :27:48.missiles. May I suggest that all of those people that wish this to

:27:49. > :27:51.happen, should sign their name, should perhaps travel on the RAF

:27:52. > :27:59.aircraft that flies in, because it will be extremely dangerous. I think

:28:00. > :28:05.that there is a live debate on that issue, but I also pray that there

:28:06. > :28:15.are other solutions such as using unmanaged drones or GPS guided Ara

:28:16. > :28:18.shoots, those parachutes can carry large amounts, much larger than an

:28:19. > :28:22.unmanned drone. These are all proposals that we know that the

:28:23. > :28:26.government is actively considering at the moment so I hope that the

:28:27. > :28:30.Foreign Secretary will tell us today if airdrops are not the answer for

:28:31. > :28:39.delivering humanitarian aid, then what is? Because inaction is simply

:28:40. > :28:41.not an option. I thank my honourable friend for giving way and

:28:42. > :28:47.congratulate those who have brought this debate today calls this morning

:28:48. > :28:51.a UN spokesperson stated that there has been a complete meltdown of

:28:52. > :28:56.humanity in Aleppo, if that does not mean we have not reached a point of

:28:57. > :29:04.last resort, does she like me want to hear from the Foreign Secretary

:29:05. > :29:08.what exactly would it be. I'm very grateful to the honourable lady and

:29:09. > :29:13.I couldn't have put it better. Thirdly once Aleppo has fallen,

:29:14. > :29:18.attention will some point .2 Raqqa and other cities where Daesh is

:29:19. > :29:24.currently in control, civilians are trapped in those cities as well.

:29:25. > :29:27.They will be just as vulnerable as civilians in Aleppo to bombardment

:29:28. > :29:32.and the use of chemical weapons and the use of the man tearing effects

:29:33. > :29:36.of any siege. So, I would ask the Foreign Secretary today to what

:29:37. > :29:42.extent if at all will there be any cooperation with Russia, Iran or the

:29:43. > :29:48.pro-government forces and if and when their attention turns to

:29:49. > :29:55.fighting Daesh. I did the -- and if the answer is none, how will we stop

:29:56. > :29:59.Raqqa and other cities becoming like Aleppo 's top yellow I'm very

:30:00. > :30:04.grateful, she has referred to other cities in Syria. Isn't it clear that

:30:05. > :30:08.the Assad regime and the Russians have focused all their resources on

:30:09. > :30:12.destroying the East Aleppo and allowed Daesh to retake power

:30:13. > :30:20.mirror. Doesn't this show what their real priorities are. In some ways

:30:21. > :30:26.this will take me to my fourth and final point, the impending fall of

:30:27. > :30:30.Aleppo must raise the question, which is what exactly is the

:30:31. > :30:34.government 's current thinking in Syria. Across the country we are

:30:35. > :30:39.seeing increasingly what the Foreign Secretary called moderate rebel

:30:40. > :30:43.groups, either defeated by pro-Assad forces all signing truce agreements

:30:44. > :30:48.with them. It has been claimed that more than 1000 such local truce

:30:49. > :30:51.agreements are now in place. So the question is, does the government

:30:52. > :30:56.believes that the Modric rebellion is still taking place or has any

:30:57. > :31:02.chance of succeeding. And if not, what endgame is the government now

:31:03. > :31:05.working towards? In September the Defence Select Committee published

:31:06. > :31:08.its report on the government 's military strategy in Syria and they

:31:09. > :31:13.came to the conclusion that the goal of creating a new leadership in

:31:14. > :31:16.Syria, that was "Neither authoritarian and oppressive on the

:31:17. > :31:21.one hand nor Islamist and extreme on the other" was too ambitious to be

:31:22. > :31:25.achieved by military means alone. That remains in my view a wise

:31:26. > :31:30.judgment and yet the government seems to be even further away than

:31:31. > :31:35.they were in September from trying to square this particular circle. In

:31:36. > :31:40.conclusion Mr Speaker, these are desperately dark and terrifying

:31:41. > :31:52.hours for the people of Aleppo, and they are hours of shame for those

:31:53. > :31:55.perpetuated this assault. And it should be deep sorrow for every

:31:56. > :32:03.international stoush in an government who failed to stop it

:32:04. > :32:07.happening. But even at this point, there are still things that we can

:32:08. > :32:11.do, there are still important lessons to learn, and Thurston

:32:12. > :32:16.important questions for the government to answer, about where we

:32:17. > :32:19.go from here. I hope that from sexual take this opportunity to

:32:20. > :32:26.answer some of those questions today. -- I hope that the Foreign

:32:27. > :32:31.Secretary. We will begin with an eight minute limit on backbench

:32:32. > :32:34.speeches. Mr Speaker can I first of all congratulate my right honourable

:32:35. > :32:43.friend force up and call to full speed the with such passion and

:32:44. > :32:48.compassion -- for speaking. Mr Speaker thank you for granting this

:32:49. > :32:51.debate, it is good also to see my right honourable friend the Foreign

:32:52. > :32:55.Secretary had to respond to it. Of course what we have heard already

:32:56. > :32:59.moves us to tears, the tens of thousands of civilians trapped in

:33:00. > :33:06.Aleppo, the reports today of residents being shot on sight, the

:33:07. > :33:11.barbarous assault by the Syrian army, Iranians militias and Russian

:33:12. > :33:18.airpower, as has been referred to, the morning Star describes it as a

:33:19. > :33:20.liberation. I first of all, offer my support and gratitude to the

:33:21. > :33:24.incredibly brave people who are risking their lives as doctors and

:33:25. > :33:28.white helmet workers in that war zone. And I support everything that

:33:29. > :33:33.has been said about what we need to do, to get aid into Aleppo, or to

:33:34. > :33:39.provide some kind of ceasefire so that civilians can get out of

:33:40. > :33:42.Aleppo. But I have the same as the Speaker, the whole concept of an

:33:43. > :33:47.emergency debate suggest that somehow this tragedy has come upon

:33:48. > :33:52.us out of the blue. And indeed it has almost natural element to it,

:33:53. > :34:00.that is not the case. The Syrian Civil War has been waging since

:34:01. > :34:04.2011. And therefore, it is something that we could have foreseen and done

:34:05. > :34:09.something about. And I think that we are deceiving ourselves, I will give

:34:10. > :34:13.way in a moment, but rarely make some progress, I think we are

:34:14. > :34:16.deceiving ourselves in this Parliament, if we believe that we

:34:17. > :34:23.have no responsibility for what has happened in Syria. The tragedy in

:34:24. > :34:30.Aleppo did not come out of a vacuum, it was created by a vacuum, a vacuum

:34:31. > :34:33.of western leadership, of American leadership, British leadership, I

:34:34. > :34:37.take responsibility as someone who sat on the National Security Council

:34:38. > :34:40.throughout those years. Parliament should take its responsibility

:34:41. > :34:48.because of what it prevented being done. And there were multiple

:34:49. > :34:53.opportunities to intervene. In 2012, David Petraeus, the head of the CIA

:34:54. > :34:59.devised a plan for a much more aggressive intervention in Syria,

:35:00. > :35:03.providing lethal support to what was then clearly a moderate opposition,

:35:04. > :35:10.in the Syrian free army. That approach was rejected. We did, as a

:35:11. > :35:14.country here in Britain, provide support for flak jackets, medical

:35:15. > :35:18.kits and so on but it was clear throughout 2012 and 20 13th that

:35:19. > :35:22.there was not a Parliamentary majority in this house for providing

:35:23. > :35:26.lethal support to that opposition so that they could shoot down the

:35:27. > :35:32.helicopters and aircraft, that they could fire back with sophisticated

:35:33. > :35:36.weaponry. And of course, in 2013, this House of Commons took a

:35:37. > :35:42.decision, not to back a government motion to authorise air strikes when

:35:43. > :35:48.Assad used chemical weapons and broke a 100-year-old to boo that we

:35:49. > :35:51.have established in the west that was survived the Second World War,

:35:52. > :35:56.you do not use chemical weapons and crossed a web

:35:57. > :36:02.-- red line that the president of the United States had established.

:36:03. > :36:06.By happily give way. Does he think such lethal force would have

:36:07. > :36:09.overcome, the Iranians, the Russians, Assad, does he think that

:36:10. > :36:15.was a runnable war if you have provided more munitions? First of

:36:16. > :36:19.all on the narrow point of August 2013, we were responding to the use

:36:20. > :36:23.of chemical weapons, and providing air strikes as a demonstration that

:36:24. > :36:27.that was completely unacceptable, that a red line had been crossed and

:36:28. > :36:33.indeed that the West had established that red line. But of course once

:36:34. > :36:36.this House of Commons took its decision, he did have an impact. I

:36:37. > :36:40.believe it did have an impact on American politics. We can't have it

:36:41. > :36:44.both ways, debate the issue on Syria and think that our decisions have no

:36:45. > :36:48.impact on the rest of the world. I did think it caused a delay in the

:36:49. > :36:54.ministration's actions, it did cause the Congress to get cold feet. This

:36:55. > :36:57.is where I want to draw my remarks to a close, the last time that I

:36:58. > :37:01.spoke from the backbenches was in 2003 on that side of the house, and

:37:02. > :37:07.we were debating intervention in Iraq. And we all know, the price of

:37:08. > :37:11.intervention. My political generation knows the price of

:37:12. > :37:15.intervention. The incredibly brave servicemen and women who gave their

:37:16. > :37:21.lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. That thousands of civilians who died in

:37:22. > :37:24.those conflicts. The cost to taxpayers in this country, the chaos

:37:25. > :37:31.that inevitably follows when there is intervention in a country. And of

:37:32. > :37:35.course the division in our society and families and communities. But I

:37:36. > :37:39.think we have come to a point where it is impossible to intervene

:37:40. > :37:43.anywhere, that we lack the political will as the West to intervene. But I

:37:44. > :37:48.have some hope out of this terrible charged in Syria, which is that we

:37:49. > :37:52.are beginning to learn the price of not intervening. We did not

:37:53. > :37:56.intervene in Syria, tens of thousands of people have been killed

:37:57. > :38:04.as a result. Millions of refugees have been sent from their homes

:38:05. > :38:08.across the world. We have allowed a terrorist state to emerge in the

:38:09. > :38:14.form of Isis which we are now trying to defeat. Key allies like Lebanon

:38:15. > :38:19.and Jordan are destabilised, refugee crisis has transformed the politics

:38:20. > :38:22.of Europe, allowed fascism to rise in Eastern Europe, create extremist

:38:23. > :38:26.parties in Western Europe, and Russia for the first time since

:38:27. > :38:30.Henry Kissinger kicked them out of the Middle East in the 1970s, is

:38:31. > :38:37.back as the decisive player in that region. That is the price of not

:38:38. > :38:41.intervening. So let us have our debate, let us do everything we can

:38:42. > :38:44.to help the civilians of Aleppo, let us hope that the new American

:38:45. > :38:48.administration and Secretary of State work with the Russians to get

:38:49. > :38:55.the ceasefire, but let us be clear now that if you don't shape the

:38:56. > :39:00.world, you will be shaped by it. Alison McGovern. Thank you Mr

:39:01. > :39:06.Speaker, and, I thank those members who have already made remarks.

:39:07. > :39:12.It is an honour to speak after the member for Tatton. Samit times I

:39:13. > :39:18.have vigorously opposed everything he put to us. Today I respect a very

:39:19. > :39:25.thoughtful contribution and an important contribution he has just

:39:26. > :39:28.made. Mr Speaker, I rise today with one purpose, and that is to persuade

:39:29. > :39:34.the Foreign Secretary that if he chooses to listen to the member for

:39:35. > :39:41.Sutton Coldfield and take the action suggested to him, he will do so with

:39:42. > :39:46.wide support across the House. Mr Speaker, overnight we have seen

:39:47. > :39:50.reports of the fresh hell that Aleppo has become. We hear this

:39:51. > :39:55.message from the White Helmets stock 100,000 plus civilians are packed,

:39:56. > :40:00.as the member for Sutton Coldfield said, in a tiny area. Bombing and

:40:01. > :40:06.shelling is relentless, casualties unimaginable, bodies lie where they

:40:07. > :40:11.fell. Last night we heard the final distress call. Today we decide

:40:12. > :40:16.whether to answer. The situation in Syria is so dire, the need is so

:40:17. > :40:21.urgent, that we must not waste further time in deliberation and

:40:22. > :40:25.delay. It is as simple as this. Civilians in Syria cannot be left to

:40:26. > :40:31.the mercy of Assad. Ban Ki-moon was very clear in his message yesterday,

:40:32. > :40:35.we all have an obligation to protect civilians and abide by international

:40:36. > :40:39.humanitarian and human rights law. He went on, this is particularly the

:40:40. > :40:43.responsibility of the Syrian government and its allies. Mr

:40:44. > :40:52.Speaker, like the Secretary General of the UN, what President Assad is

:40:53. > :40:58.doing to the people of Aleppo we know and the government knows too. A

:40:59. > :41:01.letter of condemnations sound by our Prime Minister described the

:41:02. > :41:05.bombings of hospitals and children being gassed and describes these

:41:06. > :41:09.actions as war crimes. These are strong words but strong words will

:41:10. > :41:12.not rescue a single child whilst Assad continues to drop bombs on

:41:13. > :41:16.their heads. The Prime Minister rightly condemns the Russians for

:41:17. > :41:20.their refusal to engage in Syria's peace talks. But I say it is time

:41:21. > :41:27.for our government to also rethink their efforts. As has been said, we

:41:28. > :41:31.can now clearly see the consequences of our inaction. We have asked our

:41:32. > :41:35.government to step forward with a strategy to protect civilians.

:41:36. > :41:39.Without this we can see the consequences. So many bodies that

:41:40. > :41:44.the White Helmets any longer count them let alone mount a rescue. Soak

:41:45. > :41:49.our inaction now must become action, which is why 18 days ago when I

:41:50. > :41:53.asked members of this house from all parties to sign a letter to the

:41:54. > :41:58.Prime Minister in support of getting aid to the Syrians by air if

:41:59. > :42:03.necessary as a last resort, I was surprised, though very glad that

:42:04. > :42:09.within one day 100 members of this house had agreed to put their name

:42:10. > :42:17.to such a request. Very quickly that number had been risen to over 200

:42:18. > :42:21.and is now 221, if you count all parliamentarians. Labour,

:42:22. > :42:25.Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Scottish Nationalists, SDLP, DUP,

:42:26. > :42:30.Plaid Cymru, Krhin, Mr Speaker, who cares what party we are today. Human

:42:31. > :42:34.beings are being slaughtered without mercy and I say, never mind party

:42:35. > :42:39.policy, that is a sin against nature itself. So what the government do?

:42:40. > :42:43.We know that Russia will continue to frustrate the UN process by using

:42:44. > :42:47.their veto to protect Assad. Strongly worded letters from our

:42:48. > :42:51.Prime Minister and others are worth nothing if we are not prepared to

:42:52. > :42:54.back them up with actual action. First, Mr Speaker, we need to get

:42:55. > :42:59.the vulnerable out of there, children, medics, injured and

:43:00. > :43:04.disabled early Donaghy urgently need safe passage to somewhere with

:43:05. > :43:08.shelter, food and basic medical facilities. Second as 221

:43:09. > :43:12.parliamentarians are begging the Government, get aid in, by whatever

:43:13. > :43:17.means we can come at the reality in front of our eyes is this. Even to

:43:18. > :43:21.save a single life aid is required and we know it is there and even at

:43:22. > :43:27.this late stage we must do what we can to get it to people. Third, we

:43:28. > :43:31.have to protect those left behind. The Government must be pressing with

:43:32. > :43:35.the full capacity of the British legal profession for UN monitoring,

:43:36. > :43:39.or even just British monitoring of the atrocities now being committed.

:43:40. > :43:44.If we offer Syrian civilians so very little, the least that we can do is

:43:45. > :43:51.to promise, however long it takes, Assad will see justice. We have all

:43:52. > :43:54.heard, Mr Speaker, the Government's usual lines, they say they are doing

:43:55. > :43:58.all they can, they keep their options open and nothing is off the

:43:59. > :44:02.table. Mr Speaker, that is not good enough. We are calling on the

:44:03. > :44:07.Government put something on the table. The reality is but Delhi that

:44:08. > :44:10.by delaying we're not keeping options open, we close them off and

:44:11. > :44:18.every day we miss a chance to do what is right. Assad will move on

:44:19. > :44:21.from Aleppo, maybe to Idlib or somewhere else and then somewhere

:44:22. > :44:24.else and the whole thing will play out again and we will see more

:44:25. > :44:28.bombed out hospitals, more dead children and more war crimes and no

:44:29. > :44:33.doubt more well-written press releases from governments. I have

:44:34. > :44:37.two final questions today. First, will the Foreign Secretary support

:44:38. > :44:40.the member for Sutton Coldfield's call for an immediate ceasefire to

:44:41. > :44:44.evacuate children and medical staff trapped in the rubble of East

:44:45. > :44:51.Aleppo? Will the government help make that happen, yes or no? Will

:44:52. > :44:53.they go further and do everything possible to secure a more permanent

:44:54. > :44:56.ceasefire and humanitarian access for Aleppo? The Foreign Secretary

:44:57. > :45:00.knows the support is here in the House for airdrops of aid if the

:45:01. > :45:03.Government gives it their backing. As I have said, 200 honourable

:45:04. > :45:07.members have signed a letter in support of it, the only obstacle is

:45:08. > :45:11.action from the Government. If that's the wrong option and we need

:45:12. > :45:14.another way to get humanitarian corridors open, then all I ask is

:45:15. > :45:19.for the Foreign Secretary to come back to this House with a strategy

:45:20. > :45:22.to protect civilians. Secondly, Mr Speaker, will the Foreign Secretary

:45:23. > :45:26.commit here and now the government will not stand by as the Syrian

:45:27. > :45:29.regime moves on to another city, because does anybody seriously

:45:30. > :45:33.believe that if we allow Assad to have his way now he is going to

:45:34. > :45:38.stop? Mr Speaker, I want to finish by reminding the Foreign Secretary

:45:39. > :45:42.that alongside the bombs and the gas the Assad regime have been dropping

:45:43. > :45:46.propaganda leaflets into eastern Aleppo in recent weeks. These

:45:47. > :45:49.leaflets tell the people there that the world has abandoned them, that

:45:50. > :45:53.there is no hope, well it is up to us to show that propaganda is a lie.

:45:54. > :45:56.We must show the desperate people of Syria that there are still people in

:45:57. > :45:59.this world who have not forgotten them. People who honour the

:46:00. > :46:04.commitments we have made in international law and will stand

:46:05. > :46:07.with them against barbarism. Aleppo may just have hours left but there

:46:08. > :46:11.are still souls alive in Syria who we can help. If we do nothing and

:46:12. > :46:14.stand by and watch, thousands more people in Syria will die in agony

:46:15. > :46:18.and millions in Britain will live with the shame of our inaction. Mr

:46:19. > :46:24.Speaker, the Foreign Secretary sits on the Treasury bench. For more than

:46:25. > :46:29.six years I have sat here with my Labour friends and I and deeply

:46:30. > :46:31.proud of my party. Yet, I have to tell the Foreign Secretary that if

:46:32. > :46:36.he chooses to act, if he chooses to offer a hand in friendship to people

:46:37. > :46:39.in Syria there will be no front benches or backbenches, no

:46:40. > :46:43.government benches and opposition benches, there will just be all of

:46:44. > :46:47.us here, British citizens, representing the British people,

:46:48. > :46:52.wanting him to act, not in the worst of our country's traditions but in

:46:53. > :46:56.our best and wanting him on behalf of all of us, for the sake of those

:46:57. > :47:03.in Syria who cannot escape and desperately need safety, in our name

:47:04. > :47:08.and for them, begging him to lead. The limit on backbench speeches

:47:09. > :47:15.Wylfa now be reduced to six minutes. Bob Stewart. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:47:16. > :47:18.I would like to see a humanitarian corridor go to eastern Aleppo. But

:47:19. > :47:26.may talk about the practical requirements to establish such a

:47:27. > :47:30.route? To get people to safety without anyone fighting to achieve

:47:31. > :47:37.it, I suggest a few thoughts based on my own experience of frequently

:47:38. > :47:41.having had to do that job in the 1990s. Everyone present knows, Mr

:47:42. > :47:46.Speaker, it would be a very difficult operation and we would

:47:47. > :47:52.require at least Syrian government and Russian approval. Clearly, the

:47:53. > :47:58.route must be free from air and ground attack. Without this,

:47:59. > :48:02.establishing a safer route into and out of Aleppo would be impossible.

:48:03. > :48:09.That is the first and probably the most vital prerequisite for

:48:10. > :48:14.achieving success. I suppose our diplomats are working overtime on

:48:15. > :48:17.such matters as I speak. I also take it as a given that this operation

:48:18. > :48:22.would be done under the United Nations flag. Of course, every

:48:23. > :48:28.vehicle would be emblazoned with the UN cipher on it operating under the

:48:29. > :48:34.moral authority of the world's Forum. But in truth, forces fighting

:48:35. > :48:39.on the ground may not be under effective control of even their own

:48:40. > :48:46.side. In such circumstances, small fighting groups often act

:48:47. > :48:53.independently, and if so they would cause huge loss of life. In Bosnia I

:48:54. > :48:59.used small teams led by a liaison officer to prove routes to allow

:49:00. > :49:02.convoys to go down them. This was dangerous work and it was a job

:49:03. > :49:08.where you had to convince every Commander at every roadblock that it

:49:09. > :49:12.was to be opened. I have to say that if we were to suggest such a thing

:49:13. > :49:21.we may well have to send our officers on the ground to do it. I

:49:22. > :49:28.would support that. Of course, there is a worst-case when a plan goes

:49:29. > :49:34.wrong. In Bosnia I could send my own troops in but we can't send troops

:49:35. > :49:40.in to Syria. They will be on their own, these convoys. And they will be

:49:41. > :49:46.dependent on Syrian military and militia's goodwill and indeed of

:49:47. > :49:51.course the Russians'. May I point out that once if we are successful

:49:52. > :49:57.and we get a humanitarian convoy out of Aleppo to a place of safety, we

:49:58. > :50:04.are responsible for the people in that convoy. We have heard already

:50:05. > :50:08.today of people being executed. I hate the word execution. They are

:50:09. > :50:11.murdered. Execution is a judicial process, these people are being

:50:12. > :50:15.murdered, and we would have responsibility for ensuring their

:50:16. > :50:24.safety. Establishing a safe humanitarian corridor can be done,

:50:25. > :50:33.given determination and the will and consent of the belligerents. We

:50:34. > :50:41.can't fight our way in. Well, we could if we were up to it, but we

:50:42. > :50:48.are not. But let me be clear, it will not be easy and requires a huge

:50:49. > :50:57.number of preconditions to be met. Finally, may I remind this House

:50:58. > :51:06.that if the members of this House suggest that we should lead

:51:07. > :51:14.humanitarian convoys into Aleppo, that we bear responsibility for

:51:15. > :51:23.whatever happens, good or bad. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Ben Bradshaw.

:51:24. > :51:26.Mr Speaker, thank you. The Shadow Foreign Secretary said in her

:51:27. > :51:33.remarks that what is happening in Syria shames the Assad regime, Iran

:51:34. > :51:38.and Russia. It shames all of us in this House, it shames every

:51:39. > :51:40.political party in this country, it shames the democratic world, the

:51:41. > :51:44.United States and the United Nations. If we don't do anything

:51:45. > :51:48.about it, and let's not kid ourselves that Assad will stop here,

:51:49. > :51:52.Idlib will be next. If we do nothing about this that is the end of the

:51:53. > :51:56.rules -based global order we thought we had achieved after the horrors of

:51:57. > :52:01.trip on its, with all the grave consequences that would entail for

:52:02. > :52:07.our future peace and security. -- Srebrenica. I will not give way at

:52:08. > :52:10.the moment. There have been many missed opportunities as the former

:52:11. > :52:13.Chancellor said in his speech, many people across the world have called

:52:14. > :52:19.for action against Assad since he started slaughtering his own people

:52:20. > :52:23.five years ago. In August 2013 after the international outrage, his use

:52:24. > :52:28.of chemical weapons, we had the chance. We blew it, they blew it, we

:52:29. > :52:31.blew it, every political party in this House blew it and the former

:52:32. > :52:36.Chancellor was absolutely right when he said that had a direct impact on

:52:37. > :52:40.what the United States did then with President Obama fatally withdrawing

:52:41. > :52:45.from the red line he had drawn on the use of chemical weapons, with

:52:46. > :52:50.absolutely horrendous consequences. Not just now in Syria but for the

:52:51. > :52:54.future of our world to come. At any stage since that calamity, the

:52:55. > :52:59.Government could have come back to this House with proposals for safe

:53:00. > :53:04.areas, no-fly zones and most recently for aid drops but it

:53:05. > :53:06.didn't. Just two weeks ago my Right Honourable friend who speaks for the

:53:07. > :53:11.Labour Party from the front bench made it quite clear that we would

:53:12. > :53:13.support airdrops but the minister who responded hid behind the excuse

:53:14. > :53:19.of not having the Parliamentary authority to do so. But he didn't

:53:20. > :53:23.even seek it, he didn't seek it and that has been the pattern of this

:53:24. > :53:31.government over the last few years, I'm afraid. As a desperate BBC aid

:53:32. > :53:34.worker told the BBC yesterday, it might now be too late and we now

:53:35. > :53:40.have this disgusting spectacle of the culmination of the far right and

:53:41. > :53:45.the far left around the world united only in their contempt for democracy

:53:46. > :53:49.and human rights, celebrating, celebrating, Mr Speaker, what they

:53:50. > :53:53.call a liberation. Why do we constantly forget the lessons of

:53:54. > :53:57.appeasement, whether from the 1930s, or more recently from the Balkans?

:53:58. > :54:01.The statements from Conservative ministers on Syria have sounded to

:54:02. > :54:04.me, just like the ones I remember when they were dealing with

:54:05. > :54:10.Milosevic, or not dealing with Milosevic, as he rampaged through

:54:11. > :54:15.Bosnia. When will we understand that dictators like Assad and Putin only

:54:16. > :54:21.respect strength, and the credible threat of, or the use of force. And

:54:22. > :54:26.when will we realise that Russia's strategy is to weaken and divide the

:54:27. > :54:30.free world and that driving the biggest refugee flows into Europe

:54:31. > :54:36.since World War II is a deliberate, a deliberate part of that plan? And

:54:37. > :54:42.when will we admit that Putin, what Putin can't achieve militarily, he

:54:43. > :54:47.is already achieving using cyber and propaganda warfare? This motion, Mr

:54:48. > :54:53.Speaker, is welcome but it's pathetic. It talks about us noting a

:54:54. > :54:56.motion on international action in Aleppo. There will be no

:54:57. > :55:00.international action in Aleppo because there is no political will,

:55:01. > :55:01.either here or in the other countries where there needs to be

:55:02. > :55:11.the political will. I will give way. I'm very grateful to my honourable

:55:12. > :55:16.friend for giving way, is he anxious as I am that with Putin and Russia

:55:17. > :55:21.are linked to interference in the American election, with the bombing

:55:22. > :55:26.of Syria leading to a refugee crisis here in Europe and many central

:55:27. > :55:36.European countries looking inward, as our own is, that his expansionist

:55:37. > :55:39.tendencies and his desire should make the Foreign Secretary think

:55:40. > :55:44.very, very carefully about the actions from this point onwards. I

:55:45. > :55:48.completely agree with Mark will friend. I don't think we have even

:55:49. > :55:51.begun to wake up to what Russia is doing when it comes to cyber

:55:52. > :55:56.warfare, not only in their interference in a presidential

:55:57. > :56:00.campaign. Problem in our own referendum, weep Robbie don't have

:56:01. > :56:03.evidence for that, certainly the French presidential election they

:56:04. > :56:06.will be involved and there are already serious concerns in the

:56:07. > :56:11.German secret service that Russia is already interfering in the elections

:56:12. > :56:16.coming up. We have got to wake up to this. When we gain to wake up to

:56:17. > :56:21.this? The tragedy today is the tragedy of Aleppo, issuing these

:56:22. > :56:24.desperate and probably futile last-minute appeals for help to the

:56:25. > :56:30.outside world, the tragedy tomorrow will be all of ours for thing to

:56:31. > :56:42.stop this happening and the consequences. There is no doubt that

:56:43. > :56:47.the atrocities taking place at the hands of arson and Putin and Aleppo,

:56:48. > :56:50.are the worst in decades. As a teenager watching the horrors of

:56:51. > :56:55.Rwanda or Tripoli to use you think why don't they do something. They is

:56:56. > :57:00.now ask, what are we doing? We have turned out face away. It is three

:57:01. > :57:05.years now since we decided not to respond to his use of chemical

:57:06. > :57:09.weapons on his own people. It is 15 months since a little child was

:57:10. > :57:13.found face down in Turkey. On a beach. It is a year since we decided

:57:14. > :57:16.to take action in nine months since Jo Cox was granted an urgent

:57:17. > :57:21.question on the breaches of the ceasefire. It is two weeks today

:57:22. > :57:24.since we stood here and discuss a drop sensate passages. What have we

:57:25. > :57:31.act he done to save a single civilian life in Aleppo. Nothing.

:57:32. > :57:34.We're watching a fascist dictator, using chemical weapons and barrel

:57:35. > :57:38.bombs against his own people for daring to want a better life and a

:57:39. > :57:42.better government. Have we turned away because of a more important

:57:43. > :57:47.issue because of the siren call, of looking after our own. For me that

:57:48. > :57:52.does not stop at our constituency boundaries or the white cliffs of

:57:53. > :57:57.Dover. All of humanity as R.N., we have the responsibility, the duty to

:57:58. > :58:01.act. We are not so poor as a nation either financially or that we turn

:58:02. > :58:05.our backs to what you distant shores, not least because it will

:58:06. > :58:09.find its way to us eventually, terror on our own streets will

:58:10. > :58:13.refugee families seeking sanctuary. We cannot be frozen by the guilt

:58:14. > :58:17.surrounding well-intentioned military action as the Right

:58:18. > :58:22.Honourable member for Tatton so eloquently said. If we are left

:58:23. > :58:27.disappointed or ashamed by difficult or lengthy struggles we must learn

:58:28. > :58:32.the right lessons. That's when the potential for military action

:58:33. > :58:36.arises, we should not achieve it until we have proper preparations.

:58:37. > :58:40.Those are the lessons to learn, not that we turn our backs and leave

:58:41. > :58:46.innocent citizens to the bombs and the chemicals of despots. Mr Speaker

:58:47. > :58:50.the world is getting smaller by the day and we cannot but play our part

:58:51. > :58:54.in it, we must decide what our parties and what duty to humility we

:58:55. > :58:58.owe and that duty looks to me to be two things, firstly in Syria as we

:58:59. > :59:05.have heard today we must immediately get people out. Medics, children,

:59:06. > :59:08.Munns, citizens trapped, we have got to evacuate them as soon as

:59:09. > :59:14.possible. We must get humanitarian aid in, we must urge international

:59:15. > :59:18.action, to call a ceasefire and as the honourable members said, we must

:59:19. > :59:23.identify the war crimes and bring the people to account. Secondly, we

:59:24. > :59:27.must pledge never again to turn our backs, never again to be ground down

:59:28. > :59:33.or put off by the length of difficulty of struggle. Never to

:59:34. > :59:37.give into moral equivalence between dictatorships and the struggle for

:59:38. > :59:41.people. Determination of freedom or to be so full of self-indulgence and

:59:42. > :59:48.loathing for the West that we do not believe we have a positive role to

:59:49. > :59:55.play. And regain the lack sense of responsibility humanity wherever it

:59:56. > :59:58.is or however have struggle. It is a privilege to follow a wonderful

:59:59. > :00:04.speech but you know, we have said never again so many times. We mean

:00:05. > :00:08.it when we say it but then a few months, if you years later, it comes

:00:09. > :00:15.to nothing. It is our responsibility in this house, to stand and show

:00:16. > :00:22.hope for the future, to show optimism, a way through our current

:00:23. > :00:28.problems. But you know Mr Speaker, all I feel like my honourable member

:00:29. > :00:35.for Exeter, is a sense of sorrow and shame and anger about where we are

:00:36. > :00:40.today. Wright why don't you make a speech? I thank the honourable

:00:41. > :00:46.member making way. Would you agree with me that the nation, before we

:00:47. > :00:52.look at the most catastrophic failure of Western policy, that has

:00:53. > :00:56.brought a change to the world for the worst and it is inevitable that

:00:57. > :01:00.at some point there will be a distinct reckoning for the United

:01:01. > :01:05.Kingdom and the United States of America. The honourable gentleman is

:01:06. > :01:10.right, there will be a reckoning and the question is, when it will come.

:01:11. > :01:15.And on what grounds we will fight and whether even at this last stage,

:01:16. > :01:19.we will be prepared to stand up for ourselves and the values that we

:01:20. > :01:25.preach on about in this house, but we so rarely, are actually prepared

:01:26. > :01:31.to defend when push comes to shove. I want to pay tribute, although it

:01:32. > :01:35.will not in anyway eight what little career I have left in my party. I

:01:36. > :01:49.will pay tribute to the right honourable member for Tatton. Cat

:01:50. > :01:53.rather than hats. In truth he gave a speech that should have been made

:01:54. > :01:58.from our dispatch box, he showed a level of understanding, he showed a

:01:59. > :02:02.level of understanding about these issues which shows that, and makes

:02:03. > :02:08.me hope very much that he has a future in his party. And that he

:02:09. > :02:13.will return to this, because in truth, the problems which we face,

:02:14. > :02:19.in this country, although they are great, they paid into significance

:02:20. > :02:25.compared to what we are facing now, the threat of this tyrannical regime

:02:26. > :02:31.in Russia, which has effectively through its actions, created a

:02:32. > :02:35.global system which has rules, but which has no consequences. And we

:02:36. > :02:40.must truly understand how we have enabled this to happen if we are to

:02:41. > :02:46.have any hope Mr Speaker of being able to write this situation before

:02:47. > :02:54.it is too late. Let's just remember actually, how moderate the proposal

:02:55. > :02:58.was back in 2013. This was a regime which had used chemical weapons,

:02:59. > :03:04.which we said, there must be a red line, absolutely there was no

:03:05. > :03:09.thought out plan, but the idea, I'll deal with his side in a minute. But

:03:10. > :03:13.the idea that we should say, that because there is not a thought

:03:14. > :03:21.through plan we should do nothing, which is what we did, last week

:03:22. > :03:30.actually the Minister showed real modesty and frankness, about the

:03:31. > :03:36.failures on his side for failing to get that vote through the Commons. I

:03:37. > :03:39.think, it is the most lamentable and problematic part of the former Prime

:03:40. > :03:46.Minister 's legacy that he rushed into that. I still feel sick at the

:03:47. > :03:50.idea that the lend Leader of the Opposition going from that vote,

:03:51. > :03:54.into the whips office and then congratulating himself on stopping a

:03:55. > :04:00.war. Look what is happening today and look what has happened over the

:04:01. > :04:05.last three-year is, the slaughter, no matter what side we sit, no

:04:06. > :04:13.matter what our actions were at the time. There was then the Russian

:04:14. > :04:18.move into the country, no UN mandate. No request, and yet we

:04:19. > :04:23.allowed it to happen, President Obama at the time, then said, they

:04:24. > :04:26.will come to regret that. Well they are not regretting it, because they

:04:27. > :04:33.have been able to show through that, then by the it is not indiscriminate

:04:34. > :04:37.slaughter, it is highly discriminate slaughter that they are perpetrating

:04:38. > :04:42.on citizens. They are able to get away with pretty much anything at

:04:43. > :04:46.the moment, without any sense that there will be comeback. Of course we

:04:47. > :04:51.should talk about the need for justice, and bringing people to

:04:52. > :04:54.account. But they do not respected. There is no way that they are going

:04:55. > :05:01.to give up their people to bring them to trial. This will ultimately

:05:02. > :05:06.come down for all of the talk now, about what extra aid we can bring,

:05:07. > :05:14.what we can salvage for the people, who are left in Syria fearing for

:05:15. > :05:22.their lives. This'll also, come down, whether we can restore a world

:05:23. > :05:26.of consequence. Or whether as the honourable member suggested, we are

:05:27. > :05:31.now seeing, the irretrievable breakdown of the United Nations,

:05:32. > :05:38.just as the league of Nations was destroyed in the 1930s. The UN is

:05:39. > :05:43.broken over this computer can say let us have a UN backed resolution,

:05:44. > :05:48.there is no way that Russia currently, where it fears no

:05:49. > :05:53.consequence, is going to actually be bound to the will of the West. So we

:05:54. > :05:57.have two restore a sense of consequence, of course that will be

:05:58. > :06:01.difficult, of course it will, people saying you are inflaming the

:06:02. > :06:04.situation. Look you are going to start world War three. This is not

:06:05. > :06:09.actually a country, Russia that once a war, but they will continue to

:06:10. > :06:14.push that as long as it knows it will meet no resistance. So where

:06:15. > :06:19.will it be next. Will it be a Nato nation? On our shores, let us not

:06:20. > :06:22.forget that they have redrawn by force the borders of a European

:06:23. > :06:27.country for the first time since the Second World War and what have we

:06:28. > :06:31.done? Not very much. So I understand, that the Prime Minister

:06:32. > :06:38.is focused on the UK's exit from the European Union. Rightly so, but you

:06:39. > :06:42.know, this is not a world where you can have one focus, that you can

:06:43. > :06:47.leave the difficult decisions beyond the European borders, two other

:06:48. > :06:50.people because, with genuine respect for the Foreign Secretary, I have

:06:51. > :06:55.seen his understanding on these issues, I have seen him nodding

:06:56. > :07:00.along, but at the moment, we have understanding without the capacity

:07:01. > :07:03.to act. So I implore simply not just the Foreign Secretary but the Prime

:07:04. > :07:08.Minister, to look up at what is happening, to understand, the role

:07:09. > :07:13.of leadership that she has in this country and on the world stage. And

:07:14. > :07:22.let us restore a sense of dignity and a sense of rules and a sense of

:07:23. > :07:26.consequence to the global order. Thank you Mr Speaker, as I stand

:07:27. > :07:32.here speaking to the house now, I feel humbled, that I am racked with

:07:33. > :07:39.guilt. But tonight I get to go home and kiss my children, while Syrian

:07:40. > :07:44.parents are burying their is. That I am not on the front line, with my

:07:45. > :07:47.medical colleagues, from the Red Cross, whom I stood with for many

:07:48. > :07:53.years shoulder to shoulder in many a humanitarian crisis. Colleagues who

:07:54. > :07:58.are pulling bodies out of wreckage at certain risk of murder,

:07:59. > :08:02.desperately fighting to save lives without the sources, using rags to

:08:03. > :08:08.stop bleeding. I is streaming from chlorine gas. That when I ask

:08:09. > :08:13.myself, if in Britain, have we on the benches have done enough for the

:08:14. > :08:18.innocent people in Syria, I cannot put my hand on my heart and say that

:08:19. > :08:23.we have. My guilt is tempered only by the hope that today, with

:08:24. > :08:30.colleagues from both sides have voices may be heard and action may

:08:31. > :08:35.be taken. I have said it before and I will say it again, the sound of a

:08:36. > :08:43.parent losing a child is an international language. It is a

:08:44. > :08:48.language that we are not hearing in this chamber, why have we not heard

:08:49. > :08:55.it? Why do we sit here with the inaction? We are close to a time,

:08:56. > :09:01.where all the we will be live to to say is, it is too late. We stood

:09:02. > :09:05.here today with a last chance for the government to be able to say

:09:06. > :09:16.that we did something. Something is better than nothing. To date, all we

:09:17. > :09:21.have is nothing. - thank you honourable lady for giving way on

:09:22. > :09:26.that point. I remember that I was in the house in 2013 when we took the

:09:27. > :09:31.vote in this house, to do nothing. And at the time, there were 2

:09:32. > :09:36.million women and children camps, 5 million Syrians displaced within

:09:37. > :09:40.Syria. And Assad have slaughtered 150,000 people of his own people.

:09:41. > :09:46.If we as a nation won't take action, if the United Nations want to take

:09:47. > :09:51.action and if all the most powerful nations in the world won't take

:09:52. > :09:57.actions, what hope do those people have and what hope do those people

:09:58. > :10:00.have today? I thank the honourable member for his point, with the

:10:01. > :10:05.greatest of respect I wasn't here in the chamber at that time and I'm

:10:06. > :10:09.talking about what we can do now, here, today, the responsibility that

:10:10. > :10:14.we have today, the responsibility that we have two humanity. Many of

:10:15. > :10:19.us from both sides of these benches have called again and again for

:10:20. > :10:23.humanitarian aid drops and have been met with, airdrops are a last

:10:24. > :10:28.resort. The time for the last resort has come and it has gone. I'm

:10:29. > :10:31.calling today for a strategy from the government for how it will

:10:32. > :10:37.protect the civilians left trapped in Aleppo, many of whom know their

:10:38. > :10:41.fates. Many of whom have been begging their loved ones to kill

:10:42. > :10:47.them because they fear for what will happen to them if they are captured.

:10:48. > :10:51.Today, today is the day we need action. We need negotiations now for

:10:52. > :10:56.provision to be put in place for those in Aleppo to leave and to get

:10:57. > :11:01.to a safe haven. This is a city that was once thriving, just like our

:11:02. > :11:05.own, but a city which has been reduced to rubble and death. The

:11:06. > :11:11.only thing that separates them from us is where they were born. What

:11:12. > :11:21.makes their lives worth less than ours? What makes their children's

:11:22. > :11:28.lives worth less than ours? But we will be worth less if we just stand

:11:29. > :11:32.by. One question we need to ask ourselves in the twilight of our own

:11:33. > :11:35.lives is, will we be able to look ourselves in the mirror in the

:11:36. > :11:42.privacy of our own minds and know we really did all we could? Our choice

:11:43. > :11:49.is simple. Will we be governed by fear, or will we be led by our

:11:50. > :11:54.conscience? Mr Stephen Doughty. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I spoke

:11:55. > :11:59.earlier on of my experience visiting Saudi Arabia and Srebrenica and one

:12:00. > :12:06.of the things that will never leave me is entering a mortuary in a musty

:12:07. > :12:09.room where there were bags full of bodies, full of skeletons, that were

:12:10. > :12:18.still being examined 20 years after the crisis. People whose graves had

:12:19. > :12:20.been disinterred, the evidence had been attempted to be hidden and

:12:21. > :12:27.whose families were still not able to come to closure of the atrocities

:12:28. > :12:31.of the time when the world stood by. I've heard stories of boys

:12:32. > :12:35.disappearing, summary executions, mass graves and attempts to hide the

:12:36. > :12:39.evidence and kill those witnessing the evidence. I have all the same

:12:40. > :12:42.fears that we will be looking at one of those mortuaries 20 years from

:12:43. > :12:47.now and wondering what on earth we did. I will give way but if I may

:12:48. > :12:52.make one point. That leads me to reflect on the decisions that we in

:12:53. > :12:56.this House have made. I have to reflect on the decision that I took

:12:57. > :13:01.with other people in this House in 2013 and whether or not that was the

:13:02. > :13:04.right decision. I have to say I was not convinced, I sat through the

:13:05. > :13:07.entirety of the debate and did not feel the government came forward

:13:08. > :13:10.with a comprehensive plan to. I didn't feel they have clarity about

:13:11. > :13:13.where they were going but I have to accept nevertheless that we took

:13:14. > :13:17.that decision and it may have been wrong. I have to say I agree with

:13:18. > :13:21.what the Right Honourable member for Tatton said which was the real

:13:22. > :13:25.question was why didn't we act in 2011 at the beginning of the

:13:26. > :13:28.conflict? Why were we trying to make decisions when hundreds of thousands

:13:29. > :13:31.of lives had been lost and the conflict has spiralled out of

:13:32. > :13:35.control? It is not just one position, we have to look at the

:13:36. > :13:39.collectivity of the decisions made. I'm grateful for him for giving when

:13:40. > :13:45.the contribution he is making. I felt incredibly proud to listen to

:13:46. > :13:50.many speeches colleagues have made during this debate. I hope and pray

:13:51. > :13:57.that the actions that follow the debate are as great as the speeches.

:13:58. > :14:01.Does he share with me this sense that once this two-hour debate has

:14:02. > :14:05.finished, what we will have then is a five-hour debate on the

:14:06. > :14:09.Neighbourhood Planning Bill and how ludicrous it is discussing that? I

:14:10. > :14:12.agree and I fear, Mr Speaker, many will ask where is the rest of the

:14:13. > :14:17.House today? Where is the Prime Minister? Where is the Leader of the

:14:18. > :14:20.Opposition? This is a crisis. I know the Leader of the Opposition was

:14:21. > :14:23.here but I feel on a debate like this we should have senior people in

:14:24. > :14:28.our country standing up, taking part and taking responsibilities for the

:14:29. > :14:31.decisions of this House. Mr Speaker, all of the hand-wringing we might

:14:32. > :14:35.undertake is not going to do anything to solve the problem is

:14:36. > :14:38.that we face today, that the citizens of Aleppo face right now

:14:39. > :14:41.and I want to turn to the issue of Russia. I agree with much of what

:14:42. > :14:47.Mike Right Honourable friend from Baron has said about Russia, we have

:14:48. > :14:50.to defend this fetishisation of Russia on the right and left and

:14:51. > :14:54.hold them responsible for their actions. We have to stand up against

:14:55. > :14:56.what they are doing, we have to make them recognise there are

:14:57. > :14:59.consequences for stepping over these lines, they will face a response,

:15:00. > :15:02.and I must ask the Foreign Secretary, we have heard them and

:15:03. > :15:08.this is a sincere question, we have heard the government has said it can

:15:09. > :15:12.to bring action against Russia but the EU high Representative Federica

:15:13. > :15:15.Mogherini said this week we did not discuss at all sanctions at the EU

:15:16. > :15:18.foreign affairs council and there was no member state asking for

:15:19. > :15:22.additional work on sanctions on Russia and I would like some clarity

:15:23. > :15:26.from the front secretary as to what methods have been made on this,

:15:27. > :15:31.sanctions were having an impact, and what other member states does he

:15:32. > :15:35.have supporting him? Extremely grateful for the honourable

:15:36. > :15:38.gentleman for giving way. Does he share my concern with the incoming

:15:39. > :15:42.US administration and some of the individuals' relationships with

:15:43. > :15:47.Russia in that regard, and does it not highlight the need for the UK

:15:48. > :15:51.Government to seriously press the sanctions issue? I absolutely agree

:15:52. > :15:54.and indeed much of what the new incoming President-elect has said

:15:55. > :15:58.about Russia is deeply worrying and should concern all of us, not least

:15:59. > :16:01.that he is willing to stand up for Nato allies and stand up against

:16:02. > :16:06.aggression in Eastern Europe. I wonder why we have not done more to

:16:07. > :16:09.support the efforts of other nations in the United Nations. We talk about

:16:10. > :16:12.the failures of the UN Security Council, but there are other means

:16:13. > :16:16.by which you can authorise action. The united for peace resolution

:16:17. > :16:19.process has been used before and Canada has been pushing that this

:16:20. > :16:22.week and the General Assembly took a vote and a decision. Why haven't we

:16:23. > :16:26.been at the forefront of those efforts when the Security Council

:16:27. > :16:28.fails? I fear we will headed the direction where we see the breakdown

:16:29. > :16:34.of those systems of international agreements. Fundamentally, we can

:16:35. > :16:38.make a difference and I make a similar appeal to the Foreign

:16:39. > :16:43.Secretary. What are we doing to get a ceasefire? Even a ceasefire of a

:16:44. > :16:47.few hours to get out those injured, those women and children, those aid

:16:48. > :16:50.workers, those other people who are trapped. The UN is there and ready

:16:51. > :16:54.to assist and they can get the people out but we need the agreement

:16:55. > :16:57.of Russia and others. What can we do in terms of our military assets if

:16:58. > :17:01.the Foreign Secretary is saying we cannot do airdrops, what can we be

:17:02. > :17:05.doing to provide air cover for UN convoys leaving Aleppo? We know in

:17:06. > :17:06.the past UN convoys have been attacked and other humanitarian

:17:07. > :17:25.convoys have been attacked, what can we do to provide assurance that

:17:26. > :17:28.they will not be attacked leaving the scene of this atrocity? What can

:17:29. > :17:30.we do to ensure access for neutral humanitarian monitors, from other

:17:31. > :17:32.organisations to ensure the evidence isn't destroyed, to ensure those

:17:33. > :17:35.responsible for the atrocities cannot cover up what they are doing.

:17:36. > :17:37.What can we do to ensure the evacuation of the white helm is?

:17:38. > :17:39.Those people who have been there and responding and doing amazing work on

:17:40. > :17:42.the ground. I've read some disgraceful things in recent days

:17:43. > :17:45.about the work of the white helm. I can tell you they are not true, they

:17:46. > :17:48.are helping save lives and I'm proud we are supporting them and that Jo

:17:49. > :17:50.Cox supported them and with her foundation and any report otherwise

:17:51. > :17:54.is unacceptable. Mr Speaker, finally, there is that President, if

:17:55. > :18:02.we see what is happening in Aleppo today this will happen in Raqqa,

:18:03. > :18:05.Idlib, if this is the process we are going to take and not stand up and

:18:06. > :18:09.we will see these atrocities and horror is played out again and again

:18:10. > :18:14.over the weeks and months to come. We have to stand up, Mr Speaker, we

:18:15. > :18:18.have to show that we have some common humanity. We have to do the

:18:19. > :18:21.extraordinary. We have to step outside our natural caution and fear

:18:22. > :18:27.of these events. People are dying right now and we need to act.

:18:28. > :18:30.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to start by thanking them mother for

:18:31. > :18:35.Sutton Coldfield for securing the debate and you for granting it, Mr

:18:36. > :18:42.Speaker. Mr Speaker, the war in Syria and the slaughter of over

:18:43. > :18:46.450,000 innocent civilians overwhelmingly by Asad's barrel

:18:47. > :18:50.bombs is without a doubt the 21st-century's most shocking and

:18:51. > :18:53.deplorable blood-letting. The carnage has been unparalleled since

:18:54. > :19:00.Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The international

:19:01. > :19:04.community's response, or reaction, has been lamentable. Our reaction,

:19:05. > :19:11.Parliament's reaction, has been feeble, starting in 2013. Asad,

:19:12. > :19:14.Russia and Iran's response has been criminal and the repercussions and

:19:15. > :19:22.shock waves will be felt for decades. What we need to hear from

:19:23. > :19:26.the Foreign Secretary today is first of all, as the number of members

:19:27. > :19:30.have said, what is the government macro doing with its allies to push

:19:31. > :19:33.for a meaningful, immediate ceasefire and safe passage for any

:19:34. > :19:41.remaining civilians, of which there are believed to be between 50,000 or

:19:42. > :19:46.80,000. I have a son, he is 15, he is nearly my size, but he won't

:19:47. > :19:50.thank me for saying he is still a child. What chance would he have

:19:51. > :19:55.leaving Aleppo of actually getting through Assad's soldiers and

:19:56. > :20:00.surviving that experience? Clearly, there are hundreds of thousands

:20:01. > :20:05.potentially, of civilians in a similar position, worried about

:20:06. > :20:09.their children. We've heard, rightly I think, from the honourable

:20:10. > :20:13.gentleman for Beckenham who is no longer in his place, concerns raised

:20:14. > :20:17.about airdrops. These are things that cannot clearly be undertaken

:20:18. > :20:22.lightly and there are risks associated with it. But we do need

:20:23. > :20:25.to hear from the Foreign Secretary what recent active consideration the

:20:26. > :20:30.government had given to aid drops, and perhaps the solutions that don't

:20:31. > :20:36.involve pilots that were advocated by the front bench of the official

:20:37. > :20:39.opposition. And are those airdrops relevant to other parts? Even if for

:20:40. > :20:43.Aleppo it is not relevant, there are clearly other parts of Syria still

:20:44. > :20:47.under siege that may benefit from that. We need to hear from the front

:20:48. > :20:51.secretary what the government are doing in relation to documenting

:20:52. > :20:54.human rights abuses. From a sedentary position, the minister

:20:55. > :20:59.sitting next to him, was indicating that the government are working on

:21:00. > :21:06.this issue so I hope we can hear as much as possible. It may be the

:21:07. > :21:08.Government do not want to reveal how this is documented for various

:21:09. > :21:11.reasons but we need to hear from the Foreign Secretary what work is being

:21:12. > :21:15.done on this. We also need to hear what work is being done to hurt the

:21:16. > :21:18.Russians. We will not engage in military action with the Russians,

:21:19. > :21:22.but what we can do, and the Government will have an opportunity

:21:23. > :21:27.with the criminal finances Bill, is hit them in their pockets. Of these

:21:28. > :21:32.Russians, we know, love to spend their money in the UK. They love to

:21:33. > :21:36.buy properties here. They love to buy cars here. They love to send

:21:37. > :21:41.their children here. That is an area where the government can do

:21:42. > :21:47.something and the amendment proposed to the criminal finance is Bill is

:21:48. > :21:51.actually about seizing the assets of foreigners who have committed human

:21:52. > :21:54.rights, gross human rights abuses. I would like to hear from the Foreign

:21:55. > :21:57.Secretary if that is something they will support because we know many of

:21:58. > :22:04.the Russians involved in Syria will have assets here that we could

:22:05. > :22:07.potentially sees. The government of Syria has tied itself to Russia and

:22:08. > :22:13.Iran, who see it as being to their advantage to encourage its atrocious

:22:14. > :22:17.behaviour and so perpetuate Assad's reliance on the support and Assad's

:22:18. > :22:21.position therefore for the time being at least is secure. What new

:22:22. > :22:25.initiatives can the UK working with its allies offer to help bring the

:22:26. > :22:30.fighting to an end? Some are arguing that the creation of an enclave in

:22:31. > :22:36.recent Dummett eastern Syria which would be free of Assad and indeed

:22:37. > :22:40.Isis forces where, as I understand it, the Kurds and probably UK and

:22:41. > :22:46.French special forces are active at the moment, that perhaps provide

:22:47. > :22:50.part of a solution? Mr Speaker, it's only after the violence stops that

:22:51. > :22:54.people will begin to recover from the trauma of this horrible war and

:22:55. > :22:57.only then will it be possible for Syrians to think and talk

:22:58. > :23:03.productively about how to begin transforming Syria into a country in

:23:04. > :23:06.which all its people can live in security and dignity. The UK must be

:23:07. > :23:16.prepared, if it is allowed, to play its part then. Will we be ready?

:23:17. > :23:23.Thank you, Mr Speaker. As we have heard in the opposition areas of

:23:24. > :23:31.Aleppo, there are reports of killings, mass detentions, and a few

:23:32. > :23:39.minutes ago the BBC reported that the UN's office says it has reliable

:23:40. > :23:44.evidence people were shot on sight and we feel this is just one

:23:45. > :23:51.example. This adds horribly to the imperative for urgent international

:23:52. > :23:55.action. With hindsight we can see, in 2011, the peaceful Syrian

:23:56. > :24:05.democracy movement was largely ignored by the international

:24:06. > :24:09.community. It was inevitable that those wedded to neither peace nor

:24:10. > :24:15.democracy would step in. Not least given the vicious response of the

:24:16. > :24:23.President's late father Hafeez Assad to the previous uprising such as the

:24:24. > :24:26.one in Hanna where reportedly the vast majority of people killed were

:24:27. > :24:32.civilians and the city destroyed by heavy weapons.

:24:33. > :24:41.If you years ago close relative of mine spent some time in Damascus,

:24:42. > :24:47.she told me that the memories of Hama are very live, even 20 years

:24:48. > :24:51.later, terror was a deliberate part of the armoury of the regime as it

:24:52. > :24:56.has been since the Bath party seized power in 1963. The White helmets

:24:57. > :25:03.report that tens of thousands of people are trapped, in

:25:04. > :25:06.indiscriminate attacks with greater velocity, following up from the

:25:07. > :25:13.greater human attacks on the very weakest points, hospitals, water and

:25:14. > :25:17.food supplies and aid convoys. My colleagues in my party of course

:25:18. > :25:23.supports, the calls from immediate ceasefire and safe passage for

:25:24. > :25:26.civilians and rebels out of Aleppo. I think the international community

:25:27. > :25:32.has largely failed the people of Syria so far. One redeeming aspect,

:25:33. > :25:37.is this government 's current policy of commitment to material aid. I'm

:25:38. > :25:41.very happy to salute them for that. Will the Foreign Secretary agree

:25:42. > :25:48.with me therefore that now is not the time to be cutting the foreign

:25:49. > :25:52.aid budgets? Lastly, I fear, that this is sowing the seeds of future

:25:53. > :25:56.horrors, in Syria and the Middle East in Western Europe. So

:25:57. > :26:02.irrespective of the humanitarian arguments, it is very much in our

:26:03. > :26:08.interest that we take action on the side of humanitarianism, democracy

:26:09. > :26:12.and eventual peace. Thank you very much indeed Mr Speaker and I would

:26:13. > :26:16.like to follow one from the many excellent speeches in today's debate

:26:17. > :26:21.and I thank you for calling me. I too like the honourable member for

:26:22. > :26:25.Cardiff South, visited in my then role as chair of the all-party group

:26:26. > :26:31.on genocide prevention alongside you Mr Speaker, Rwanda, Burundi,

:26:32. > :26:37.Democratic Republic of Congo and more recently South Sudan. And I

:26:38. > :26:43.have seen there, the long painful process of rebuilding, in countries

:26:44. > :26:47.where genocides have taken place. One of the many problems when a

:26:48. > :26:52.genocidal war crimes takes places that there is a Fog of war that

:26:53. > :26:57.takes place. I remember living and working in Brussels, during the

:26:58. > :27:00.Rwanda genocide and not really understanding as I was reading the

:27:01. > :27:07.newspapers in French what was happening between Hutu and Tutsi.

:27:08. > :27:15.But seeing, the people fleeing from Rwanda as it was then, and later

:27:16. > :27:19.from Zaire. I think one of the issues of this conflict, has been

:27:20. > :27:26.that there has been no lack of information. In fact everything has

:27:27. > :27:28.been appearing on social media websites, people have been live

:27:29. > :27:34.tweeting their own suffering and deaths. That is why, the people who

:27:35. > :27:37.are citizen journalists, why the people who are the humanitarian

:27:38. > :27:43.workers are more feared by the regime and by the Russians, than the

:27:44. > :27:47.people who are the rebel fighters. And we have seen the images, images

:27:48. > :27:57.that I would personally rather not have seen of their children, who

:27:58. > :28:02.were murdered in Homs and Hama in 2011-2012. And we in the West and in

:28:03. > :28:04.particular in the US and UK cruiser Red Line of saying we would

:28:05. > :28:10.intervene if there were chemical weapons used. That's fatal vote in

:28:11. > :28:14.August 2013, as the honourable and Right honourable gentleman for

:28:15. > :28:20.Tatton says, has had very long consequential actions flowing from

:28:21. > :28:24.it. And our inaction created a bit ago space for the Russians to move

:28:25. > :28:28.in and to offer to decommission those chemical weapons, we have all

:28:29. > :28:31.seen how successful that decommissioning process has been as

:28:32. > :28:36.we have washed sarin gas, chlorine gas and napalm being dropped on

:28:37. > :28:43.schools and hospitals in Aleppo and throughout Syria. We have seen the

:28:44. > :28:46.Russian propaganda campaign of misinformation, and their pretence

:28:47. > :28:50.at being the honest brokers when the West failed and when the West stood

:28:51. > :28:56.by. But it also opened up, the military space, as Assad released

:28:57. > :29:01.the jihadis from his jail to go out and create mayhem in his country, it

:29:02. > :29:06.created a recruiting Sergeant for over 1000 jihadis fighters, 30,000

:29:07. > :29:10.jihadis fighters from over a hundred countries to go and fight, for

:29:11. > :29:18.Islamic State and to create that geographical space, where Daesh

:29:19. > :29:23.could claim its caliphate and groom and you're our own people from our

:29:24. > :29:27.country to go over there, waste their lives either razz jihadist

:29:28. > :29:32.rides will fighters and find themselves stuck there, in the

:29:33. > :29:36.horror, of a nihilistic death cult. Political space captured by the

:29:37. > :29:41.Russians, military space given to Islamic State, to create mayhem in

:29:42. > :29:47.the region. And the export across the region to Turkey, to Iraq, where

:29:48. > :29:51.let's not forget, is all has been under Daesh rule for two years,

:29:52. > :29:57.where we have had a long and painful coalition trying to take back the

:29:58. > :30:02.space in Iraq. And export of chaos from Syria, a 11 million refugees, 7

:30:03. > :30:07.million of them in their own country. 4000 dead. The toll in

:30:08. > :30:11.Syria is not a toll that says there is the fog of war and we don't know

:30:12. > :30:15.what is happening. The toll has been our political inaction and there is

:30:16. > :30:20.a bitter irony Mr Speaker that weapons of mass the structure and on

:30:21. > :30:23.which this country went to war, in Iraq, and which later was

:30:24. > :30:27.subsequently found to not be there, possibly having gone over the border

:30:28. > :30:33.to Syria where we see they have been used. We see now that when we do see

:30:34. > :30:38.weapons of mass destruction, being used, in Syria, that there is no

:30:39. > :30:42.action. That we are prepared to take. Had diminished, we can futile

:30:43. > :30:48.is the rules -based international order. We see also from the

:30:49. > :30:50.Secretary of State Sergei Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister,

:30:51. > :31:00.telling the US Secretary of State to" stop whining". That is the

:31:01. > :31:05.contempt with which, Assad and Putin hold Western forces and powers. I

:31:06. > :31:10.would like to know from the Foreign Secretary when he replies to this

:31:11. > :31:13.debate, how will the workers of UK charities who are currently working

:31:14. > :31:18.in East Aleppo, they haven't been publicly spoken about in the debate,

:31:19. > :31:22.how will they be evacuated and rescued? I would also like to share

:31:23. > :31:29.with the house, the fact that when we had our first debate in Syria in

:31:30. > :31:36.October, I contacted a neurosurgeon working in East Aleppo, one is still

:31:37. > :31:41.alive. Will she give way. Thank you Mr Speaker, my friend is making a

:31:42. > :31:44.characteristically details and important speech, just wondered if

:31:45. > :31:49.she would say bit more about the fate of civilians who have put

:31:50. > :31:53.themselves at risk. Absolutely and this is the case of civilians who

:31:54. > :31:56.put themselves at risk as citizen journalists, of going out while the

:31:57. > :32:01.bombs are falling and filming what is happening but this is also about

:32:02. > :32:06.the solidarity between our own national health service, and Doctor

:32:07. > :32:12.David Knott and the excellent work, training people in Turkey to go back

:32:13. > :32:17.into the hellhole that is Aleppo, Idlib had performed those

:32:18. > :32:20.life-saving surgeries, I have been contact with somebody during this

:32:21. > :32:25.debate and I have been telling him what we are doing. He has live

:32:26. > :32:32.tweeted to us. I think it is only fair to live tweet back. I said we

:32:33. > :32:36.are calling on the US and Russia, to have the safe corridors for

:32:37. > :32:45.humanitarian people and civilians to leave. His response is, it'll take a

:32:46. > :32:49.lot more than calling. These are people who are facing imminent death

:32:50. > :32:55.will torture, from the pro-Assad regime. We have seen the pictures of

:32:56. > :32:59.the 100 or so civilians men and boys in that compound, with the Syrian

:33:00. > :33:02.army general in front of them, we don't know what their fate is, but

:33:03. > :33:08.we are back to Bosnia and Trowbridge itself. But when we talk about never

:33:09. > :33:13.again, we have to put force behind those words. Finally I would like to

:33:14. > :33:17.conclude about asking the Foreign Secretary, what would the Prime

:33:18. > :33:22.Minister do at the EU Council this weekend. Will she work with our

:33:23. > :33:26.European allies, with our Nato allies, to make sure that we get a

:33:27. > :33:31.speedy resolution and humanitarian resolution to this conflict? Thank

:33:32. > :33:37.you Mr Speaker, I would like to start with a quote from a letter

:33:38. > :33:41.from a constituent, from a doctor who left the massacre say few years

:33:42. > :33:48.ago and now works as a researcher -- and now left Serie a few years ago.

:33:49. > :33:52."It Is a shame to see the mass executions have been to the

:33:53. > :33:56.civilians who are trying to flee Aleppo and no action being taken.

:33:57. > :34:01.I'm very disappointed that are broken that the free world who left

:34:02. > :34:08.civilians who chanted the values that the West believes in, they're

:34:09. > :34:12.left starved, and facing the Russian and Iranians alone. We are left

:34:13. > :34:18.alone. I urge the UK not to bomb Syria but we need a dropped, it is

:34:19. > :34:23.not too late and there are besieged areas in Damascus, all over Syria.

:34:24. > :34:29.Use these planes to create safe corridors to protect the civilians,

:34:30. > :34:33.not to bomb them." Mr Speaker I can't add to the many comets that

:34:34. > :34:38.sum up the despair and frustration that people feel about the situation

:34:39. > :34:42.in Aleppo. I do want to reflect on the fact that it is just over a year

:34:43. > :34:46.since we had a vote in the house and whether or not to join military

:34:47. > :34:50.action in Syria that was opposed by those of us on these benches but we

:34:51. > :34:53.were assured that if we voted to join another tree action then we

:34:54. > :34:58.would cut off the head of Isis, we would be providing her support for

:34:59. > :35:03.70,000 ground forces and we would be part of a coordinated military

:35:04. > :35:06.action that would lead to an enhanced political solution. It is

:35:07. > :35:10.now terrifyingly obvious that none of those things have come to pass.

:35:11. > :35:14.One of the things that we were promised which was suggested that it

:35:15. > :35:18.would be delivered if we joined in military action was that it would

:35:19. > :35:20.give this country and this government greater leveraged in

:35:21. > :35:25.terms of trying to influence the events as they unfolded in Syria. It

:35:26. > :35:29.seems terrifyingly obvious that is not the case either. I am sure that

:35:30. > :35:35.there are many in this house watching the television screens,

:35:36. > :35:38.whose main instinct, feeling is one frustration at the apparent

:35:39. > :35:41.impotence of our government to be able to get involved and do

:35:42. > :35:50.anything. And I do think that there are some people, perhaps not sitting

:35:51. > :35:53.in the benches opposite, who need to go on and assertiveness training

:35:54. > :35:56.course. They need to speak a lot louder and worried that exceeds that

:35:57. > :36:02.they had been doing thus far. I would like to see this country

:36:03. > :36:06.leading, not following. Not being a bystander, but getting involved,

:36:07. > :36:10.getting your hands dirty, and trying to sort the problem out because

:36:11. > :36:15.after all, if this problem is not the problem that was caused by

:36:16. > :36:18.France and our own country, whose problem is it? We have a

:36:19. > :36:22.responsibility to the world to show leadership and I hope very much that

:36:23. > :36:26.we will do that. I along with many in this house am very angry at and

:36:27. > :36:30.opposed to the actions that Russia has taken militarily in recent

:36:31. > :36:34.months. But I would say this to the house, the way forward is not going

:36:35. > :36:39.to be to demonise President Putin, to try and return to a new Cold War,

:36:40. > :36:44.to try and pretend that Russia does not have legitimate interest in the

:36:45. > :36:47.region. I would like to see firm but emphatic engagement with the Russian

:36:48. > :36:52.authorities, and insistence from this government that they need to be

:36:53. > :36:58.part of the equation and part of the plan. Calling Russia to account,

:36:59. > :37:01.insisting that humanitarian aid is prioritised and that corridors are

:37:02. > :37:06.allowed for it should be delivered, I think if we stood up and we are

:37:07. > :37:10.seen to be doing that, let us have the shuttle diplomacy and be seen to

:37:11. > :37:14.speak out for the people of this country and to lead international

:37:15. > :37:18.opinion and put pressure on the Russians and others, who are trying

:37:19. > :37:22.to make a bad situation worse. Can I also say we need to call out the

:37:23. > :37:27.Turkish government on this action, because they have been none too

:37:28. > :37:31.helpful. The Turkish support for the young doosra front has treated a fig

:37:32. > :37:35.leaf of credibility for the Russian military, that in fact the people of

:37:36. > :37:40.eastern Aleppo are somehow terrorist enclaves that need to be liquidated.

:37:41. > :37:45.That is unhelpful, as is the actions of the Turkish government in being

:37:46. > :37:48.hostile to pretty much any sentiment expressed by the Kurdish population

:37:49. > :37:53.in the region. Their last take action, let us make sure that we

:37:54. > :37:57.take action, to deliver humanitarian aid, to make sure that there is a

:37:58. > :38:00.ceasefire, and most of all, to make sure that war crimes if they had

:38:01. > :38:08.been committed, will be recorded and will be brought to book in the

:38:09. > :38:15.future. The honourable gentleman whom I am about to call needs to sit

:38:16. > :38:18.down by 3:23pm so that I can call the Foreign Secretary, from whom the

:38:19. > :38:23.house will very much want to hear. Thank you very much Mr Speaker comic

:38:24. > :38:27.here we are once again caught once again congratulating the honourable,

:38:28. > :38:31.Right Honourable member for Sutton Coldfield, securing the emergency

:38:32. > :38:36.debate. Once again hearing from across the house of the atrocities

:38:37. > :38:40.and unimaginable horror of life in the city, once again asking the same

:38:41. > :38:46.questions to the government. Where is the head of the snake that our

:38:47. > :38:47.bombs was going to cut off? Why is the United Nations so powerless in

:38:48. > :38:59.the face of this disaster? I want to reflect on the situation

:39:00. > :39:02.on the ground and the role of the Government. We hear Assad forces are

:39:03. > :39:09.on the brink of seizing control of the city but in doing so it seems

:39:10. > :39:14.they are playing at that ancient saying that they have made a desert

:39:15. > :39:18.and called it please. Quite how the word victory could apply in the

:39:19. > :39:23.almost utter destruction of a city, the debt and displacement of so many

:39:24. > :39:26.people, is beyond me and I suspect most of us, and destruction

:39:27. > :39:29.continues with both sides responsible for atrocities and

:39:30. > :39:32.horror, and the level of displacement of people, more than

:39:33. > :39:39.the population of Scotland, slightly less than the population of London

:39:40. > :39:43.displaced both within the country and to external borders. And while

:39:44. > :39:46.recognising the humanitarian contribution the United Kingdom has

:39:47. > :39:50.made, there must be more that it can do and that must extend also to the

:39:51. > :39:55.welcome it provides to Syrian refugees who make it here to the

:39:56. > :39:59.United Kingdom. 20,000 refugees over the lifetime of this Parliament from

:40:00. > :40:03.Syria, it is simply not enough. It would be helpful to hear from the

:40:04. > :40:08.Government how it wants to work with humanitarian organisations on the

:40:09. > :40:11.ground in Syria and neighbouring countries. Local organisations have

:40:12. > :40:14.a much deeper bridge and understanding of the immediate

:40:15. > :40:18.situation than multilateral or bilateral agencies but in Aleppo

:40:19. > :40:22.itself as many members have said, surely now we require urgent and

:40:23. > :40:25.specific response. We on these benches have repeatedly called for

:40:26. > :40:29.aid drops and the Government has repeatedly said that would be an

:40:30. > :40:36.option of last resort. What is the per zero at resort? What is

:40:37. > :40:41.happening that is preventing the extension of these aid drops? And no

:40:42. > :40:44.food has been delivered to Aleppo for seven months. What are these

:40:45. > :40:48.alternatives that the Government is pursuing? We have heard the risks

:40:49. > :40:53.and difficult logistics of aid drops but we have also heard proposals

:40:54. > :40:57.that have come from the University of Aleppo about how the United

:40:58. > :41:01.States joint AirDrop system could be deployed and I have asked written

:41:02. > :41:04.questions about this to the Minister already and it would be helpful to

:41:05. > :41:07.hear what discussions the UK is happening with the US and other

:41:08. > :41:13.allies about this system and whether it does provide a more secure way of

:41:14. > :41:17.delivering aid by air. The Minister might also be aware of proposals

:41:18. > :41:21.from members of the Disasters Emergency Committee and other NGOs

:41:22. > :41:24.for use of a system delivering aid by helicopter to safe landing site

:41:25. > :41:31.identified by the White Helmets and others. In a letter to the Prime

:41:32. > :41:36.Minister, agencies cite the role in the 1948-1949 aid drop in Berlin

:41:37. > :41:39.where 200 tonnes of cargo were delivered to residents of West

:41:40. > :41:42.Berlin, so will the Prime Minister be responding to that letter from

:41:43. > :41:48.some of the most respected aid agencies in this country? They make

:41:49. > :41:57.the point that the UN security resolution 2165 authorises the UN to

:41:58. > :42:02.make aid deliveries without the authorisation of the Syrian

:42:03. > :42:06.Government, and to use AirDrop if land access continues to be denied,

:42:07. > :42:14.so what steps is the Government taking to be ready if the situation

:42:15. > :42:20.stabilises? I am grateful to him for giving way. Yesterday I spoke at a

:42:21. > :42:23.conference for Syrian refugees in my constituency and met an accomplished

:42:24. > :42:32.artist from Aleppo who was berating me for the lack of action on all of

:42:33. > :42:37.our parts. My honourable friend has described practical steps we could

:42:38. > :42:43.take so perhaps next time I meet this gentleman and other refugees I

:42:44. > :42:46.will be able to give concrete proposals. Specific proposals get

:42:47. > :42:50.bored forward and we are told they are not possible, so what are the

:42:51. > :42:54.alternatives, how will this aid otherwise be delivered? As other

:42:55. > :42:58.members have said, it brings into question the entire multilateral

:42:59. > :43:03.system and the role of the UN Security Council and its seeming

:43:04. > :43:06.inability to respond to the regime. The Government are aware of a

:43:07. > :43:10.statement by faith leaders and Amnesty supported by over 200

:43:11. > :43:14.organisations calling for a greater role from the General assembly of

:43:15. > :43:18.the United Nations, it calls for a special emergency session of the G8

:43:19. > :43:21.to demand an end to unlawful attacks in Aleppo and elsewhere in Syria and

:43:22. > :43:25.immediate unhindered access for humanitarian aid, so will the

:43:26. > :43:29.Government support that call? As I said in the last debate, the UK's

:43:30. > :43:35.position on the security council is supposed to be one of the great

:43:36. > :43:39.advantages of the union, so how is that diplomacy going to be used as a

:43:40. > :43:43.force for good? We have repeatedly said that if we can't drop bombs in

:43:44. > :43:48.Syria, we should be able to drop bread. They need is great, the

:43:49. > :43:52.technology and solutions are there and if stability comes, irrespective

:43:53. > :43:56.of the horrific circumstances, then the Government and aid must be

:43:57. > :44:01.allowed in, the Government must be preparing so that as soon as an

:44:02. > :44:04.opportunity arises it can show leadership and help, and help people

:44:05. > :44:10.rebuild the city and their lives, which are currently in ruins. The

:44:11. > :44:15.Foreign Secretary, Mr Boris Johnson. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I'm

:44:16. > :44:18.grateful to my right honourable friend the Member for Sutton

:44:19. > :44:23.Coldfield for securing this debate on the matter that the whole house

:44:24. > :44:26.feels so strongly about, and I want to say that I listened very

:44:27. > :44:32.carefully to all the speeches on both sides, and I find myself

:44:33. > :44:40.greatly in agreement with much that has been said on both sides of the

:44:41. > :44:46.House this afternoon. After five months of siege and almost a year of

:44:47. > :44:50.bombardment, we are now reaching the end of the siege of Aleppo and

:44:51. > :44:57.Assad's forces are doing their utmost to stamp out the last embers

:44:58. > :45:03.of revolt. The dictator's malicious have carved patterns of destruction

:45:04. > :45:07.through crowded streets, destroying hospitals, severing water supplies,

:45:08. > :45:15.and herding thousands of people from their homes. I will come in a minute

:45:16. > :45:21.to what we have tried to do, as the UK Government, what we continue to

:45:22. > :45:25.do, and what we will do in the future, and also of course I will

:45:26. > :45:33.discuss the tragic limitations that we face in our own actions so far.

:45:34. > :45:38.But first I think it would be worth going back and remembering how this

:45:39. > :45:44.tragedy has unfolded. As long ago as July, the regime sealed off eastern

:45:45. > :45:52.Aleppo and defeated two aborted efforts to break the siege, notch by

:45:53. > :45:57.notch Assad tightened the noose, the last UN convoy entered eastern

:45:58. > :46:01.Aleppo on July the 7th, the last food rations were handed out on

:46:02. > :46:08.November the tenth, the last functioning hospital was targeted by

:46:09. > :46:13.an air and knocked out of action on November the 19th. Some 275,000 men,

:46:14. > :46:20.women and children were then trapped in eastern Aleppo without food,

:46:21. > :46:25.medical care, or even in many cases electricity and water. And in this

:46:26. > :46:31.piteous condition, they endured ceaseless attacks from the air and

:46:32. > :46:35.ground, notably by barrel bombs dropped from Syrian military

:46:36. > :46:40.helicopters. I know that time is short, but I think it is worth just

:46:41. > :46:46.reminding the House exactly what a barrel bomb is and why it makes such

:46:47. > :46:52.a hideous weapon. Imagine a metal drum filled with petrol and

:46:53. > :46:57.explosives, laced with nails and jagged shards of metal. These

:46:58. > :47:00.objects, people watching and listening around the world may not

:47:01. > :47:04.know what they are, these objects are loaded on board helicopters

:47:05. > :47:09.which then hover over civilian areas. The men on helicopters simply

:47:10. > :47:14.liked the abuses of the barrels before rolling them out of the door,

:47:15. > :47:19.leaving them to fall on the ground, where they shred and incinerate any

:47:20. > :47:23.human being within range. There is no guidance system or targeting.

:47:24. > :47:30.Barrel bombs have no military purpose. They cannot be dropped near

:47:31. > :47:36.a front line for fear of striking friendly forces. Their sole purpose

:47:37. > :47:40.is to civilians. And schools of these awful weapons have been used

:47:41. > :47:48.against the people of eastern Aleppo by Assad every day. The collapse of

:47:49. > :47:53.the rebel held district began on November the 26th and has gathered

:47:54. > :47:57.pace. In the areas we captured by the dictator we have reports today

:47:58. > :48:03.of hundreds of young males being separated by their families and

:48:04. > :48:05.marched away to an unknown fate. The UN High Commissioner for human

:48:06. > :48:13.rights today reported civilians have been killed on the spot. As this

:48:14. > :48:19.tragedy has unfolded, the Government has sought to reduce the suffering

:48:20. > :48:23.with every diplomatic and humanitarian leaver at our command,

:48:24. > :48:29.and I really must tell the House that we have used every effort in

:48:30. > :48:33.the UN to do this, and even today, together with the French, we are

:48:34. > :48:39.calling for an emergency meeting of the security council, and I know

:48:40. > :48:43.that our excellent ambassador Matthew Rycroft will be conveying in

:48:44. > :48:49.the UN today many of the sentiments that have been expressed in the

:48:50. > :48:56.House. On October the 8th, we tried to secure a UN resolution that would

:48:57. > :49:01.have urged a ceasefire and demanded that all parties immediately end all

:49:02. > :49:06.aerial bombardment of Aleppo. That resolution was vetoed by the

:49:07. > :49:11.Russians. On Monday last week we tried again. Throwing our weight

:49:12. > :49:15.behind a draft resolution co-sponsored by Egypt, Spain and New

:49:16. > :49:19.Zealand, this would have urged a seven-day ceasefire in Aleppo,

:49:20. > :49:27.allowing the evacuation of casualties and the delivery of aid.

:49:28. > :49:34.Once again, Russia vetoed that resolution, joined by China. I think

:49:35. > :49:38.the House will join me in condemning those in Moscow and Beijing who will

:49:39. > :49:49.not allow the people of Aleppo even a seven day respite. And I must say,

:49:50. > :49:54.my honourable friend from Sutton Coldfield, today I have information

:49:55. > :49:58.from Aleppo today, as I'm sure many right honourable members do

:49:59. > :50:07.themselves, it is today the Russians who are blocking the evacuation not

:50:08. > :50:10.just of the injured but of medical staff from leaving the servants

:50:11. > :50:17.which they themselves, the very zones which they themselves are

:50:18. > :50:21.attacking. I will give way. Given what he has said about Russia and

:50:22. > :50:27.China's behaviour, and their failure, what are the consequences

:50:28. > :50:32.going to be for Moscow and Beijing? I can tell the honourable member

:50:33. > :50:36.that we are gathering all the information that we think will be

:50:37. > :50:43.necessary for the prosecution of those guilty of war crimes, but I

:50:44. > :50:47.must say the diplomatic pressure must be continued, and to somebody

:50:48. > :50:52.who asked earlier what we would doing in the EU, I can tell the

:50:53. > :50:59.House that it is the UK that has been standing up in the last meeting

:51:00. > :51:03.of the Security Council, the UK that has argued for tightening sanctions

:51:04. > :51:08.against Russia, in respect of Syria as well I wish the rest of the EU

:51:09. > :51:12.would follow suit. Last Saturday, if you will forgive me, I will give way

:51:13. > :51:16.in a second after I make more progress, last Saturday I broke off

:51:17. > :51:20.a visit to the Middle East to fly to Paris to discuss these matters with

:51:21. > :51:23.Secretary Kerry and I pay tribute to John Kerry for the efforts that he

:51:24. > :51:31.has made. But they have not prevailed. We jointly demanded that

:51:32. > :51:38.the regime and its backers allowed the UN to deliver aid with immediate

:51:39. > :51:42.effect. Assad has doggedly refused to allow the UN to deliver supplies

:51:43. > :51:48.to hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are now starving. He is

:51:49. > :51:54.content, content for his own people to be reduced to starvation even

:51:55. > :52:02.though there are UN warehouses full of food within easy reach. I will

:52:03. > :52:05.give way. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In order to protect civilians, when the

:52:06. > :52:08.Prime Minister goes to the European Council later this week, what

:52:09. > :52:11.specific action will the Foreign Secretary be telling her she should

:52:12. > :52:22.be proposing to our European colleagues? What the Russians need

:52:23. > :52:31.to do, and this is what our European colleagues should do as well, is

:52:32. > :52:36.Institute an immediate ceasefire. It is up to the Russians and the Assad

:52:37. > :52:42.regime to institute a ceasefire. I will come in a minute to the

:52:43. > :52:46.deficiencies that recent decisions or decisions in 2013 have left us,

:52:47. > :52:53.the problem is that we have today because many members have sought to

:52:54. > :53:01.find fault with the UK Government and with what we try to do, and

:53:02. > :53:05.given that we're contributing 2.3 billion of aid, many members have

:53:06. > :53:10.asked an entirely legitimate question, which is, why don't we fly

:53:11. > :53:14.in aid ourselves? I think the Labour members opposite have asked that

:53:15. > :53:19.very question, why don't we drop it in from the air on eastern Aleppo?

:53:20. > :53:25.Many have spoken in favour of air drops. I can tell honourable members

:53:26. > :53:29.that in the course of recent weeks, since I last came to the House and

:53:30. > :53:35.we discussed this particular matter, we have studied that option with

:53:36. > :53:40.very great care, and working with my colleagues across Whitehall, working

:53:41. > :53:43.with Mike Wright honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence,

:53:44. > :53:46.with the RAF, I must tell the House we have come up against some hard

:53:47. > :53:56.reactions. I will give way. When he complains about Russian

:53:57. > :53:59.behaviour and vetoes, does he understand that he sounds exactly

:54:00. > :54:02.like those Conservative foreign secretaries in the early 1990s he

:54:03. > :54:11.said exactly the same thing about the Balkans, we then had a Labour

:54:12. > :54:14.government that showed leadership, assembled a coalition, got Americans

:54:15. > :54:24.abroad to do something to stop the genocide. What is he doing? I really

:54:25. > :54:27.have to say to the right honourable gentleman, it comes little ill from

:54:28. > :54:39.someone on that side of the house when he remembered that it was his

:54:40. > :54:43.party that was whipped to oppose any action in 2013. I have to tell the

:54:44. > :54:49.house, if I can just get back to the current situation, others have asked

:54:50. > :54:59.some very reasonable questions which I think I must answer. We've come up

:55:00. > :55:03.against, I hope the honourable lady will forgive me if I make some

:55:04. > :55:09.progress, for ear drops to be accurate they must be conducted at

:55:10. > :55:14.low-level and low speed. Russia has provided the most advanced jets

:55:15. > :55:19.which makes it impossible for us to carry out those drops without

:55:20. > :55:22.Russian permission. Even if they were to give consent, our aircraft

:55:23. > :55:27.would need to fly over areas of Syria that are hotly contested by a

:55:28. > :55:31.multitude of armed groups including Al-Qaeda. They would make every

:55:32. > :55:36.effort to shoot down a British plane and a lumbering, low-flying

:55:37. > :55:44.transport aircraft would be a sitting duck. We came reluctantly to

:55:45. > :55:49.the conclusion that those drops would prove too great a risk. When

:55:50. > :55:53.it comes to drones and other devices, we faced the problem that

:55:54. > :55:59.it is the Syrians and the Russians who controlled airspace. Of course

:56:00. > :56:06.it is possible that circumstances may change. I will not rule out any

:56:07. > :56:12.option for delivering aid today but now will I give false hope. As

:56:13. > :56:17.things stand, we will be risking the lives of our aircrew if we try to

:56:18. > :56:30.drop supplies into eastern A level. -- eastern Aleppo. All those efforts

:56:31. > :56:37.depend on Russia and the Assad regime and its up to them to agree a

:56:38. > :56:41.truce and the most effective way of delivering aid would be for them to

:56:42. > :56:49.give permission to the UN to deliver the supplies that are piled high in

:56:50. > :56:53.their warehouses. As long ago as December 2015, Russia voted in

:56:54. > :56:59.favour of the UN resolution which urged all parties to allow

:57:00. > :57:05.unhindered access throughout Serbia. Russia must obey the resolution it

:57:06. > :57:11.supported and compel Assad to allow the UN to feed his people. I say to

:57:12. > :57:16.the honourable but members -- to the honourable members opposite, if we

:57:17. > :57:26.take the pressure off Russia we are doing the purposes of the Assad

:57:27. > :57:33.regime. I come to an inescapable... I'm afraid I must... There is

:57:34. > :57:43.another inescapable reality that members must accept, on August 29,

:57:44. > :57:47.2013, this house voted not to use force, even after he had poisoned

:57:48. > :57:57.hundreds of his people with nerve gas. We, as a country, vacated that

:57:58. > :58:04.space into which a stepped, beginning its own bombing campaign.

:58:05. > :58:09.Ever since that vote, our ability to influence votes in Syria or compel

:58:10. > :58:18.the delivery of aid has been severely limited. The dictator was

:58:19. > :58:23.left to do his worst. Along with his allies, Russia and Iran, and the

:58:24. > :58:35.bloodiest tragedy of the 21st century has since unfolded.

:58:36. > :58:43.I have to say, this will not mark the end of the war. The victory will

:58:44. > :58:47.turn to ashes in his mouth. Even if he imposes his room, two thirds of

:58:48. > :58:53.Syria will remain outside his control, millions of Syrians hostile

:58:54. > :59:03.to the rule of a tyrant with the blood of hundreds of thousands on

:59:04. > :59:08.his hands. Already, Daesh has taken the opportunity to surge forward and

:59:09. > :59:14.capture the ancient Roman city of Palmyra. Assad has said his aim is

:59:15. > :59:19.nothing less than the reconquest of every inch of Syria. If he is

:59:20. > :59:26.allowed to pursue that goal then I fear this war will continue for more

:59:27. > :59:36.years and the victory will still elude him. Let's turn the question

:59:37. > :59:44.round and ask, do Russia and Iran want to stand behind Assad in this

:59:45. > :59:50.futile and indefinite struggle? Do they want to be with him, siege for

:59:51. > :59:59.siege, barrel bomb for barrel bomb, gas attack for gas attack as the

:00:00. > :00:07.tyrant reduces his country to ashes? In the months and years ahead, does

:00:08. > :00:13.Russia want to be bombing Syrian cities whilst casting votes in the

:00:14. > :00:19.Security Council on behalf of a man who they have no great regard for.

:00:20. > :00:24.The Foreign Secretary mentions the vote in 2013. I will live with that

:00:25. > :00:28.for the rest of my life. Can I ask him, at the moment there is no

:00:29. > :00:53.pressure on Russia. Wantee go to the Prime Minister now? We're doing

:00:54. > :00:58.everything we can. Most people understand the restrictions. I'm

:00:59. > :01:02.afraid I must wind up but I hope the Russians will see sense and join

:01:03. > :01:14.with us to secure the transition away from Assad. It is up to them.

:01:15. > :01:22.They have the future. It is one of the darkest episodes in the history

:01:23. > :01:26.of Aleppo and one day that city will rise again and Britain will be among

:01:27. > :01:36.the countries that helped restore a Aleppo. It will come all the faster

:01:37. > :01:40.if the Russians and the Iranian do the right thing. Abandon their

:01:41. > :01:46.puppet and go forward with the solution that is the only way

:01:47. > :01:51.forward. The question is that this house has considered international

:01:52. > :02:10.action to protect civilians in Aleppo and more widely across Syria.

:02:11. > :02:16.I think the eyes have it. -- ayes. Following that emergency debate, can

:02:17. > :02:19.I secure advice? There is clearly a profound re-examination of some of

:02:20. > :02:25.the arguments that led to the result of the vote in August 2013, when

:02:26. > :02:30.Parliament was recalled during a recess. Can Mr Speaker advise me,

:02:31. > :02:35.does he think there may be a case for the government coming back to

:02:36. > :02:40.the house with a substantive motion to reflect the changed circumstances

:02:41. > :02:47.since that time? It would be absolutely open to the government to

:02:48. > :02:55.return to the matter and to put before the hosts a substantive

:02:56. > :03:09.motion -- house. That opportunity most certainly exists. I requested

:03:10. > :03:14.from the Foreign Secretary that he described the actions he has taken

:03:15. > :03:18.to evacuate the staff of the UK-based humanitarian organisations.

:03:19. > :03:21.He did not answer that point. Can you seek to get answers from the

:03:22. > :03:28.Foreign Secretary on that specific point which is the -- of the utmost

:03:29. > :03:37.gravity and urgency. All I can do is say that I heard him indicate that

:03:38. > :03:42.he will write to the honourable lady. Might I politely ask that the

:03:43. > :03:46.Foreign Secretary plays a copy of the letter in the library of the

:03:47. > :03:51.house because I think his answer will be of interest to many members

:03:52. > :03:57.in all parts of the house. I'm not sure there is but I will indulge the

:03:58. > :04:03.honourable gentleman. I also asked the Foreign Secretary whether he

:04:04. > :04:12.would support the amendment to the criminal finances bill. What I would

:04:13. > :04:19.say, or any other member who feels his or her point has been

:04:20. > :04:22.inadequately addressed, I'm sure the Foreign Secretary will study what

:04:23. > :04:28.has been said by colleagues and if he feels there are points being

:04:29. > :04:33.under addressed he will write to colleagues. I think we will have to

:04:34. > :04:48.leave it there. We cannot continue the debate at this time. I am most

:04:49. > :04:58.grateful to colleagues. We come to the programme motion, the Minister

:04:59. > :05:02.will move, thank you. The question is the neighbourhood planning Bill,

:05:03. > :05:15.the programme number two motion as on the order paper. As many are of

:05:16. > :05:22.the opinion say aye. I think they have it. They will proceed to read

:05:23. > :05:29.the orders of the day. Neighbourhood planning Bill to be considered. We

:05:30. > :05:33.begin with government new clause six wet wet it will be convenient to

:05:34. > :05:38.consider the new clauses and amendments grouped together on the

:05:39. > :05:48.selection paper. To move new clause six I call the Minister, Gavin

:05:49. > :05:52.Barwell. Thank you very much. Government new clause six deals with

:05:53. > :05:56.the ability to claim compensation for temporary severance when a claim

:05:57. > :06:01.has been referred to the upper tribunal. This would arise when the

:06:02. > :06:06.authority has taken possession of the part of a claimant's lander that

:06:07. > :06:11.it once before the tribunal has determined the claim and then

:06:12. > :06:26.decided it must take more of the claimant's land. They can... A

:06:27. > :06:33.provision to ensure this is already contained in paragraph 25 of

:06:34. > :06:46.schedule two A. That is when the authorities preceding.

:06:47. > :06:54.This was not spotted at the time so the new clause fills the gap. I beg

:06:55. > :07:01.to move that this stands part of the bill. With your permission it will

:07:02. > :07:09.be convenient to discuss government amendment 21. This is a

:07:10. > :07:14.consequential amendment. It is in section one and two of the Housing

:07:15. > :07:18.act. This is the power to serve it in connection with an acquisition

:07:19. > :07:25.proposal. It aligns the definition of acquiring authority so that the

:07:26. > :07:30.power to enter and survey land can be used in connection with any

:07:31. > :07:34.proposal to take possession of land under that clause. The new

:07:35. > :07:35.definition still works for authorities intending to acquire the

:07:36. > :07:52.land permanently. The question is that it be read a

:07:53. > :07:58.second time. Doctor Roberta Blackman. I rise to speak to new

:07:59. > :08:05.clause three which calls for a comprehensive review of the CPO

:08:06. > :08:14.process. There is clear consensus among the witnesses. The CPO system

:08:15. > :08:21.we currently have is not fit for purpose, it is convoluted and puts

:08:22. > :08:30.people off using it which negatively impact on the development. It was

:08:31. > :08:35.commented that the existing system is not helpful for reaching quick

:08:36. > :08:40.solutions and encourages people to be fighting with each other from the

:08:41. > :08:51.outset. Ultimately, it causes uncertainty and additional cost.

:08:52. > :08:54.Richard Asher said the Royalists should've chartered surveyors has or

:08:55. > :09:00.is believed that goes back to 1845 and the rules are highly complex and

:09:01. > :09:04.a sensible way forward would be to review the system as it stands at

:09:05. > :09:15.present. Labour strongly believe that CPO legislation should be

:09:16. > :09:20.updated to enable greater use of CPOs and to work in partnership with

:09:21. > :09:24.developers to ensure that we have the new homes and development that

:09:25. > :09:31.we need. There are over 100 years of conflicting statute and case law

:09:32. > :09:35.that make up the legislation and small changes within that are not

:09:36. > :09:40.going to have a significant effect and indeed, the Minister in

:09:41. > :09:42.committee did reflect on the fact that the changes in this legislation

:09:43. > :09:53.would not amount to a game changer. I would ask the Minister why the

:09:54. > :09:57.Government continues to make small changes bit by bit to the CPOs

:09:58. > :10:01.system rather than bringing forward legislation that would allow us to

:10:02. > :10:13.review it and make it fit for purpose. I wish to speak to

:10:14. > :10:19.amendments in new clause 12 and amendments 26 and 27. New clause 12

:10:20. > :10:21.in both the housing and planning Act and neighbourhood planning Bill

:10:22. > :10:27.contained welcome measures to make clear that an authority should make

:10:28. > :10:31.payment of compensation in advance, that is the important bit, in

:10:32. > :10:35.advance of taking possession of land. They also provide a mechanism

:10:36. > :10:40.for improving the rates of interest on late payment of compensation,

:10:41. > :10:45.that is important because if there is this mechanism it will hopefully

:10:46. > :10:47.encourage acquiring authorities to pay in advance and pay a reasonable

:10:48. > :10:52.rate of interest rather than delaying payment. These measures

:10:53. > :10:56.require further regulations in order to come into force. As soon as this

:10:57. > :11:00.bill, the neighbourhood planning Bill, becomes law, they should be

:11:01. > :11:06.brought forward without delay to ensure land owners and business

:11:07. > :11:10.owners benefit from the Government's previous promise to improve interest

:11:11. > :11:13.rates on late payment. Moving quickly to amendment 26, I welcome

:11:14. > :11:18.divisions in this bill would allow acquiring authorities to take land

:11:19. > :11:23.on a temporary basis. This will provide much-needed flexibility in

:11:24. > :11:27.the compulsory purchase system and stop acquiring authorities having to

:11:28. > :11:31.take land only required temporarily on a permanent basis but basically

:11:32. > :11:35.it should not be allowed on both. If having taken land on a temporary

:11:36. > :11:38.basis the acquiring authority then find it needs to take it on a

:11:39. > :11:46.permanent basis, they should be subject to a second compulsory

:11:47. > :11:55.purchase procedure. Finally the most important amendment, amendment 20

:11:56. > :12:00.seven. In clause 28 of this bill, this removes part four of the land

:12:01. > :12:04.compensation Act 1961. This will prevent land owners who have had

:12:05. > :12:07.compulsory purchase for a particular purpose seeking additional

:12:08. > :12:10.compensation should the land end up being used for a different more

:12:11. > :12:17.lucrative development. Let me explain that briefly. I would say to

:12:18. > :12:22.the Minister on the front bench that the general principles of compulsory

:12:23. > :12:26.purchase are that somebody's land that has been compulsorily acquired

:12:27. > :12:30.should be paid the same price as if that land were being acquired on a

:12:31. > :12:35.voluntary willing seller, willing buyer bases in the private

:12:36. > :12:39.commercial sector. By abolishing this part of the land compensation

:12:40. > :12:45.Act, so that if land subsequently have a different use, for example

:12:46. > :12:49.the zoning changes so that the land suddenly becomes extremely valuable

:12:50. > :12:53.because it can be developed by houses or commercial purposes, the

:12:54. > :12:57.person having his land acquired would not get the benefit of that

:12:58. > :13:02.uplift. As a chartered surveyor, I declare that in my members register

:13:03. > :13:05.of interests, if I was ever selling such land that I felt is likely to

:13:06. > :13:11.have such an uplift, I would always insist on an Burrowbridge clause

:13:12. > :13:18.being placed, not for ten years but were 20 or 25 years, in which the

:13:19. > :13:22.vendor would get 50% of the value of the uplift, so I said to my

:13:23. > :13:26.honourable friend, loud and clear, I think in this clause 28 he is

:13:27. > :13:30.enabling acquiring authorities to acquire land on the cheap at the

:13:31. > :13:37.expense of private landowners and I think that is unfair. I apologise

:13:38. > :13:45.for missing the beginning of the debate, I was chairing a select

:13:46. > :13:51.committee meeting. But I'm sure it was an important and fascinating

:13:52. > :13:55.debate, Mr Speaker. I have great regard for the honourable lady on

:13:56. > :14:00.the front bench. Can I support my honourable friend in relation to the

:14:01. > :14:03.amendments? We put them forward in an endeavour to be constructive

:14:04. > :14:07.towards the Government because they do reflect areas where the

:14:08. > :14:11.Government has taken valuable and worthwhile steps, new clause 12 for

:14:12. > :14:18.example is built upon the fact that the Government rightly increased the

:14:19. > :14:25.rates of interest, but it is important there is not a gap between

:14:26. > :14:28.the Act which enables that coming into force and the actual practical

:14:29. > :14:34.application of the regulations. It may mean the Minister has another

:14:35. > :14:37.means whereby we can achieve this objective as a new clause, in which

:14:38. > :14:41.case we would be happy, but we think it is important it is flagged up. I

:14:42. > :14:44.appreciate it is the Treasury that probably has to deal with the

:14:45. > :14:49.regulations, we would not want anything to fall between the gap and

:14:50. > :14:54.the Government's good intention not been delivered in practice. Thank

:14:55. > :15:00.you for giving way. As the member any idea what time limit to put on

:15:01. > :15:06.that or how long it would be before that would come to an end and that

:15:07. > :15:10.the Government would have to, I suppose, bind their position and

:15:11. > :15:14.give that additional compensation? It seems to me that we are putting

:15:15. > :15:18.the ball into the Government's court in relation to that because we

:15:19. > :15:22.already have, we will have the commencement date for the provisions

:15:23. > :15:28.of the Act, and it seems to us that this regulation ought to follow on

:15:29. > :15:32.at the time of commencement, if at all possible, or as crows as

:15:33. > :15:38.practical thereto, that is what we are seeking to achieve. -- as close

:15:39. > :15:41.as practical. He pointed out the Government already agreed to these

:15:42. > :15:44.provisions and therefore presumably Treasury approval has been given

:15:45. > :15:48.because it will cost a certain amount of money. It should therefore

:15:49. > :15:56.be logical but as soon as this bill comes into force, these provisions

:15:57. > :15:59.all -- also should come into force. I agree with my honourable friend

:16:00. > :16:08.and cannot say more on that aspect. In relation to amendment 26, the key

:16:09. > :16:13.point there is, the word certainty in the current political climate is

:16:14. > :16:19.particularly fashionable, businesses want certainty about a number of

:16:20. > :16:22.things. This is another example precisely of that, because it may

:16:23. > :16:27.well be that they have to make contingency arrangements to relocate

:16:28. > :16:30.part of their operations and it is obviously much better for them to

:16:31. > :16:34.know at the early stage what is to be acquired on a permanent basis or

:16:35. > :16:38.what is temporary. If it is temporary, they will plan

:16:39. > :16:41.accordingly, nothing stops the acquiring authority coming back for

:16:42. > :16:45.a second bite at the chubby but it does not leave a business which

:16:46. > :16:48.could be not necessarily a large business but an SME, family fun,

:16:49. > :16:54.something of that kind, left into limbo as to what their long-term

:16:55. > :17:00.future is, and in the final point being made in relation to our

:17:01. > :17:04.amendment 27, as my friend rightly says, his profession... Can I just

:17:05. > :17:08.make one point? I respect his professional expertise as a

:17:09. > :17:11.surveyor, but my experience certainly as a lawyer leads me to

:17:12. > :17:19.the same conclusion and indeed my experience in the local government

:17:20. > :17:22.world leads me to say my local authority is active and has a good

:17:23. > :17:28.investment fund in property in Bromley. We do expect if we acquire

:17:29. > :17:34.property to enter into overage payments, so it would be the norm. I

:17:35. > :17:37.give way. I understand the point of the Honourable Gentlemen are making

:17:38. > :17:42.but are they talking about a one-way ratchet? That is if the different

:17:43. > :17:46.purpose helpfully referred to in the members' explanatory notes to

:17:47. > :17:51.amendment 27 word to mean that the land was worth less than the

:17:52. > :17:56.original purpose, would the landowner get a lower compensation,

:17:57. > :18:02.or is it a one-way ratchet? It is one way because it is designed to

:18:03. > :18:06.prevent somebody who is in a monopoly bargain position cutting

:18:07. > :18:09.unfair pressure on the owner because if you have unfair compulsory

:18:10. > :18:13.purchase powers you are not obliged to go through a free bargaining

:18:14. > :18:17.process that is why the ratchet is deliberately done in that direction.

:18:18. > :18:23.What it does not do is prevent what I hope responsible acquiring

:18:24. > :18:27.authorities would generally do -- would not generally do but could

:18:28. > :18:32.happen, which is instead of using compulsory acquisition as a last

:18:33. > :18:35.resort, to use compulsory powers early on in the process because

:18:36. > :18:39.otherwise if they acquire by Private Treaty they may be forced in effect

:18:40. > :18:46.into overage, and we would not want that to be done when the agencies of

:18:47. > :18:51.the state are bearing down on the individual or small business. That

:18:52. > :19:04.is what is behind those amendments, and I moved them accordingly. I rise

:19:05. > :19:08.to support my honourable... I came because I think it is an important

:19:09. > :19:12.subject, I like to support my colleagues in saying that where land

:19:13. > :19:17.is being compulsorily acquired the aim should be to ensure that the

:19:18. > :19:21.owner gets the open market value if it had been a voluntary seller in

:19:22. > :19:24.the private sector market, without the distortion of the public sector

:19:25. > :19:31.purchaser. That surely is my honourable friend -- as my

:19:32. > :19:36.honourable friend has indicated, means that if there is value in the

:19:37. > :19:40.land, that would be included in the price and it may be possible to take

:19:41. > :19:44.that as overage or express a capital value and clean the whole thing up

:19:45. > :19:47.in one go, that is a matter which needs to be sorted out but I hope it

:19:48. > :19:52.will be confirmed by the Minister. As to the opposition argument, I

:19:53. > :19:57.think sometimes the best is the enemy of the good, and we already

:19:58. > :20:00.have 17 pages of additional legislation on compulsory purchase,

:20:01. > :20:03.and this is the opportunity surely if the opposition thinks of

:20:04. > :20:07.something that really needs fixing or improving to offer an amendment

:20:08. > :20:12.to do so, this is the Government's best fix on the current legislation

:20:13. > :20:15.and I think we can do it by means of amendment to the existing law, so I

:20:16. > :20:20.think it is probably not right to say that we have to go off and we

:20:21. > :20:23.designed the whole thing. That might create added hazard and complexities

:20:24. > :20:30.and there is always scope for making mistakes. He will be aware that we

:20:31. > :20:34.have had the housing and planning Act 2016 said this is the second

:20:35. > :20:37.time before the House, so the idea that we don't want additional

:20:38. > :20:41.legislation or don't want the review process to take place, I have to

:20:42. > :20:45.say, looks a bit thin when we are on the second bite of the cherry

:20:46. > :20:52.already on primary. I think we have agreement, I am saying that

:20:53. > :20:55.continuous review with incremental approval, the opposition is entitled

:20:56. > :20:59.to join in and that was another opportunity with this bill and I am

:21:00. > :21:04.pleased we have spared a complete rewrite of legislation as that may

:21:05. > :21:09.not produce extra advantages, and it does put up all sorts of hazards, so

:21:10. > :21:13.I assume the Government wished not to proceed with that particular

:21:14. > :21:20.amendment. If there is nobody else, the Minister. Thank you, it has been

:21:21. > :21:23.a short debate on what is quite a technical area of the bill but

:21:24. > :21:26.nonetheless a very important one that cuts to the core of our belief

:21:27. > :21:31.in this country of the importance of people's property rights and the

:21:32. > :21:38.very clear restrictions on the circumstances in which the state can

:21:39. > :21:42.compulsorily acquire property. I will respond to the official

:21:43. > :21:46.opposition's new clause three. The honourable lady explain to the House

:21:47. > :21:50.why she believed there should be a fundamental review of compulsory

:21:51. > :21:54.purchase law, a similar new clause was debated in committee and the

:21:55. > :22:00.honourable lady also mentioned this on some of the affirmative

:22:01. > :22:05.regulations arising from the Housing and planning Act 2016 last week. I

:22:06. > :22:08.suspect the compulsory purchase is probably an area on which it is

:22:09. > :22:13.easier to agree we need fundamental reform than to agree on what that

:22:14. > :22:17.fundamental reform should be. She's certainly right to say most of the

:22:18. > :22:19.people that gave evidence to the bill committee, whilst they

:22:20. > :22:23.supported what the Government is doing here, also believed there was

:22:24. > :22:27.the potential to have a more far reaching form, but there was no kind

:22:28. > :22:33.of consensus about what that should be. It is worth putting on the

:22:34. > :22:37.record that the Law commission have looked into this area, and

:22:38. > :22:42.effectively what the Government did in the housing and planning Act

:22:43. > :22:46.2016, what we are doing in this blog, reflects the that the Law

:22:47. > :22:49.commission reached, so they did not come up with a complete rewrite of

:22:50. > :22:54.the law, they came up with a particularly focused set of reforms

:22:55. > :22:58.and to come back to the Member for Wolverhampton South West, the reason

:22:59. > :23:01.we are coming back to this is one we consulted in previous legislation

:23:02. > :23:05.people raised fresh point about which there was a consensus and that

:23:06. > :23:14.is why the Government has proceeded. What I would say to the House, let's

:23:15. > :23:17.see what impact the reforms in the 2016 Act, which are only just being

:23:18. > :23:22.implemented, and the reforms we are making in this bill have, and

:23:23. > :23:27.hopefully they will make it easier for people to use compulsory

:23:28. > :23:31.purchase when necessary to do so, making the process simpler and

:23:32. > :23:36.clearer one, and we will then be in a better position to consider

:23:37. > :23:41.whether or not we need any further reform. I am happy to confirm to the

:23:42. > :23:46.honourable lady, as I have said to her before, that if there was a

:23:47. > :23:50.growing consensus about a specific package of wide ranging reform, the

:23:51. > :23:54.Government would look at that issue, as we have proved we will do in

:23:55. > :24:01.relation both to the 2016 Act and to this bill. However, what I do not

:24:02. > :24:04.want to do is to write into legislation a statutory requirement

:24:05. > :24:17.to conduct a review. My experience on inheriting the 2016 Act, it is

:24:18. > :24:20.full of requirements for the Government to review this and that

:24:21. > :24:22.and actually I want my officials in the Department focused on the

:24:23. > :24:24.fundamental issue of how we get this country building the homes that we

:24:25. > :24:30.need, not conducting endless reviews. I would end by saying that

:24:31. > :24:35.it is worth putting on record that the amendment is the opposition have

:24:36. > :24:37.drafted would actually prevent the Secretary of State to commencing

:24:38. > :24:43.provisions in this bill on which all sides of the House agree and they do

:24:44. > :24:47.marked improvement until we have conducted the review, and I think by

:24:48. > :24:51.the Secretary of State and I are of one mind that what we need is to get

:24:52. > :24:54.on with things, not to have further delay, so whilst being sympathetic

:24:55. > :24:57.to the honourable lady's viewpoint that if a consensus develops over

:24:58. > :25:01.time for a radical review we should look at that, I would urge her to

:25:02. > :25:08.with -- to withdraw new clause three.

:25:09. > :25:15.I then come onto the amendments. Let me reassure Mike honourable friend

:25:16. > :25:24.and near neighbour that in the first minute of the debate he did not miss

:25:25. > :25:28.much at all. I've had the opportunity, Mr Deputy Speaker, to

:25:29. > :25:38.meet with my honourable friends and discuss this issue is. I'm grateful

:25:39. > :25:47.for this. I hope I can offer partial reassurance. In moving clause 12 my

:25:48. > :25:52.honourable friend sought to obtain commitment as to whether the

:25:53. > :26:00.government will make changes in the orders. The most pressing are the

:26:01. > :26:07.regulations to impose a penal rate of interest on late payments for

:26:08. > :26:12.advance payment of compensation for compulsory acquisition. Allied to

:26:13. > :26:17.these other powers to make presentation of claim forms of

:26:18. > :26:24.compulsory purchase compensation and those powers are contained in the

:26:25. > :26:29.powers. My honourable friend understandably asked when the

:26:30. > :26:34.regulation setting the rates of interest for outstanding payment of

:26:35. > :26:43.compensation and advance payment of compensation for temporary position

:26:44. > :26:47.possession of land will be made. I'm going to own line to him and the

:26:48. > :26:56.host what we've got to do to make these things happen. The power for

:26:57. > :27:04.the Treasury to make regulations and set the interest rate is contained

:27:05. > :27:08.within section 196. The provisions are amended by clauses 35 of this

:27:09. > :27:13.bill. Once this bill receives Royal assent subject to the will of this

:27:14. > :27:18.house and the other place, we shall commence clauses 34 and 35 as soon

:27:19. > :27:22.as possible. Together with section 196 of the 2016 act. My colleagues

:27:23. > :27:27.in the Treasury will arrange for the regulation setting of... Advanced

:27:28. > :27:28.payments to come into force alongside the substantive

:27:29. > :27:44.provisions. We shall commence this on the same

:27:45. > :27:48.day. Clearly, I cannot predict precisely when that they will be as

:27:49. > :27:54.it depends on the passing of this bill however I'm happy to put on

:27:55. > :27:57.record, I recognise it is extremely important for those whose land is

:27:58. > :28:04.taken that advance payments are being made on time. The government

:28:05. > :28:09.is committed to bringing this in force as soon as it is able to do

:28:10. > :28:12.so. On the powers of the 2016 act, the government is not intending to

:28:13. > :28:19.make regulations to provide claim forms immediately. We intend to

:28:20. > :28:25.start with non-statutory forms. This will be amended in the light of the

:28:26. > :28:30.initial experience. I'm sure the members will agree there is only

:28:31. > :28:40.going to have that happen when there is a clear need to do so. I can say

:28:41. > :28:52.they should be no difficulty in bringing the interest rate

:28:53. > :28:57.regulations into force. I hope he will withdraw the new clause 12. My

:28:58. > :29:00.honourable friend went on to raise one of the points in the temporary

:29:01. > :29:06.regime, he said amendment 26 would permit either temporary possession

:29:07. > :29:12.or permanent acquisition of a parcel of land but not both at the same

:29:13. > :29:18.time. A balance must be struck between, and he was making that

:29:19. > :29:21.point powerfully, but also flexibility for acquiring

:29:22. > :29:25.authorities who are tasked with providing what is often vital

:29:26. > :29:30.national infrastructure. Particularly for the linear is

:29:31. > :29:34.transport schemes it is not always possible to determine the precise

:29:35. > :29:38.line of the route at the time of taking compulsory powers. The final

:29:39. > :29:46.details may not be confirmed until a late stage. It will often be

:29:47. > :29:51.necessary to occupy much of the land temporarily to construct the scheme

:29:52. > :29:57.but only take permanent possession of the land that is built up.

:29:58. > :30:12.Services provided, flexibility is provided. Clause 15 does not enable

:30:13. > :30:17.temporary possession or acquisition of the same land at the same time.

:30:18. > :30:24.On the other hand, I would not wish, for the reasons my honourable friend

:30:25. > :30:27.set out, to give carte blanche to lazy authorities that cannot make

:30:28. > :30:32.their mind up earlier about what land they need on a permanent basis

:30:33. > :30:38.and what land they need temporarily. I hope it will satisfy him if I say

:30:39. > :30:42.that I proposed to issue guidance on what an authority would need to

:30:43. > :30:46.demonstrate before the confirming authority, the relevant Secretary of

:30:47. > :30:52.State, would confirm an order which attempted to authorise temporary and

:30:53. > :31:02.permanent acquisition of the same land. I hope my honourable friend

:31:03. > :31:06.will withdraw his amendment. Secondly, his amendment seeks to

:31:07. > :31:20.make sure part of it would remain in force. The majority of those who

:31:21. > :31:24.responded were in favour. To reassure my right honourable friend,

:31:25. > :31:38.compensation under the ordinary rules already reflect the full

:31:39. > :31:44.market of the land. I think the balance has moved more in favour of

:31:45. > :31:50.the appeal since the planning. These are specifically take the conditions

:31:51. > :31:58.as known to the market of the time into account. I would accept that

:31:59. > :32:03.the arguments are fairly balanced. In favour is the argument that it

:32:04. > :32:09.introduces an element of uncertainty for the acquiring authority that

:32:10. > :32:16.leads to a situation in the public sector. The government believe it

:32:17. > :32:21.will reduce the risk and uncertainty whilst maintaining the principle of

:32:22. > :32:26.compensation. My honourable friends have argued passionately that it

:32:27. > :32:29.would create uncertainty for claimants. They are treated as

:32:30. > :32:36.though they have retained their interest in the land so can benefit

:32:37. > :32:40.from any increase in value. My honourable friend has argued that

:32:41. > :32:49.this reflects commercial practice and clauses are routinely included

:32:50. > :32:52.in transactions. The clash between practice and compensation rules

:32:53. > :32:59.might be reconciled if after the appeal, landowners pressed for

:33:00. > :33:03.clauses when negotiating with acquiring authorities over the sale

:33:04. > :33:06.of the land. This might enable deals to be struck without records to

:33:07. > :33:18.compulsory purchase and I think that's what all of us should aspire

:33:19. > :33:23.to. That's a very helpful point. Is there some assistance he can give by

:33:24. > :33:33.way of some steer or guidance towards the authorities. I'm very

:33:34. > :33:39.happy to look at that. I was just about to say that at present the

:33:40. > :33:44.government is not wholly persuaded by the government's argument and I

:33:45. > :33:47.would like them to withdraw their amendment but the arguments are

:33:48. > :33:54.finely balanced and I look forward to them being further explored in

:33:55. > :34:05.the other place. My honourable friend has suggested we meet

:34:06. > :34:12.guidance. He is not ruling out returning to it if evidence can be

:34:13. > :34:16.put forward. In terms of all of this section of the Bill, what we wish to

:34:17. > :34:19.do is proceed with the maximum consensus possible about the right

:34:20. > :34:34.way to get a set of rules for compulsory purchase. He might like

:34:35. > :34:38.to include the obvious point that if they can reach a voluntary agreement

:34:39. > :34:47.it would speed up the compensation so there is something in it for both

:34:48. > :34:50.parties. Some have goodwill towards owners of land and others don't and

:34:51. > :34:55.that is what the guidance needs to address. My right honourable friend

:34:56. > :35:00.makes a perfect point on which to end this section of the debate. The

:35:01. > :35:04.point should be compulsory purchases should be a last resort. What we

:35:05. > :35:09.should be encouraging is authorities to seek to secure land needed for

:35:10. > :35:21.major infrastructure projects or schemes on commercial terms. What we

:35:22. > :35:25.are legislating for a should be a last resort that is not possible and

:35:26. > :35:30.in the public interest if necessary to acquire sites. With that, I hope

:35:31. > :35:52.they will withdraw their amendments. The ayes have it. As many of that

:35:53. > :35:59.opinion say aye. I think the ayes have it. We come to group two and a

:36:00. > :36:02.new clause one with which it will be convenient to consider the other new

:36:03. > :36:12.clauses and amendments grouped together on the selection paper. I

:36:13. > :36:16.wish to speak to new clause one in my name and the name of many members

:36:17. > :36:24.across this house. Planning guidance on clustering of betting offices and

:36:25. > :36:29.payday lenders. Fixed odds betting terminals have been described as the

:36:30. > :36:33.crack cocaine of gambling and have plagued our high streets. Members

:36:34. > :36:39.have seen and innumerate number of issues with the explosion of betting

:36:40. > :36:46.shops on the high Street and it is high time there was clarity in

:36:47. > :37:02.planning law. There is no doubt there is a significant planning

:37:03. > :37:12.problem. Research carried out has revealed high density of betting

:37:13. > :37:22.shop clustering and gambling. 28% of people living within 28 metres of

:37:23. > :37:26.clusters are problem gamblers, compared to the 22% of problem

:37:27. > :37:37.gamblers who do not live near one. Research has revealed that problem

:37:38. > :37:41.gambling, exacerbated by clustering, cost mental health services and the

:37:42. > :37:47.taxpayers ?100 million per year and a research from academics has

:37:48. > :37:50.revealed it disproportionately affects vulnerable communities.

:37:51. > :38:03.Since there are more than twice as many betting shops compared with the

:38:04. > :38:07.most affluent. We do have an adverse impact on our high streets. These

:38:08. > :38:15.findings were summed up by Mary Portas who said the influx of

:38:16. > :38:19.betting shops into deprived areas is blighting our high streets. I would

:38:20. > :38:24.remind some members who may be in disagreement that it was brought

:38:25. > :38:38.about by this particular government when in coalition in the last

:38:39. > :38:44.Parliament. They have hampered efforts to deflect the effects of

:38:45. > :38:49.clustering. Clusters of payday lenders and betting shops are

:38:50. > :38:53.affecting the vitality of the high street.

:38:54. > :39:01.I rise in support of his amendment. He, like me, will be aware that

:39:02. > :39:04.gambling is an addiction for some, and in relation to alcohol and

:39:05. > :39:07.tobacco this House has repeatedly passed measures to restrict the

:39:08. > :39:13.availability of those illegal products. Surely that is simply all

:39:14. > :39:16.my honourable friend is seeking to do, place restrictions through

:39:17. > :39:22.guidance on the availability of illegal product to cut down on its

:39:23. > :39:26.availability and attraction to addict. He is right and I agree with

:39:27. > :39:29.his comments, you could say we have planning frameworks and guidance for

:39:30. > :39:35.things like supermarkets so why not betting shops? It seems remarkable

:39:36. > :39:41.that we can pick on supermarkets... There are more pubs full square mile

:39:42. > :39:50.in poor areas and betting shops, more fast-food jobs -- shops per