09/01/2017

:00:00. > :00:08.system that provides security and dignity in old age. Order. Urgent

:00:09. > :00:12.question, Mr Peter Kyle. I would like to ask the Secretary of State

:00:13. > :00:15.for Justice to make a statement on the emergency review to determine

:00:16. > :00:17.how to ban perpetrators of domestic violence from directly

:00:18. > :00:26.cross-examining their victims within the family court? Mr Speaker, can I

:00:27. > :00:29.start by saying how grateful I am to the honourable member for the chance

:00:30. > :00:34.to update the House of what is an important issue. To put this in

:00:35. > :00:38.context, the issues at stake in family proceedings are always

:00:39. > :00:41.sensitive and often complex. The decisions of the court can have far

:00:42. > :00:47.reaching implications for the individuals concerned. The presence

:00:48. > :00:53.of domestic abuse only exacerbate an already traumatic situation. The

:00:54. > :00:58.government has taken steps to make sure victims in the family justice

:00:59. > :01:03.system have support and protection. Protected legal aid for individuals

:01:04. > :01:06.seeking protection from abusers. We continue to invest in the court

:01:07. > :01:10.estate to improve the physical security of family courts and the

:01:11. > :01:15.emotional support available for users. We have placed particular

:01:16. > :01:19.emphasis on training for those who work in the family justice system,

:01:20. > :01:22.making sure they understand the nature and impact of domestic abuse

:01:23. > :01:28.and they act appropriately when they come across it. We know there is

:01:29. > :01:35.more to do. As my colleague, the Minister for victims, made clear

:01:36. > :01:39.when this was debated in Parliament on the 15th of September, the

:01:40. > :01:42.government is determined to improve the family justice response to

:01:43. > :01:46.domestic abuse and we have been working closely with judges and

:01:47. > :01:49.others to consider what additional protection may be necessary. We are

:01:50. > :01:56.particularly concerned about the fact that unrepresented, alleged

:01:57. > :02:00.perpetrators can cross examine their alleged victims in family

:02:01. > :02:06.proceedings. I want to make family court processes safer for victims so

:02:07. > :02:11.they can advocate effectively for themselves and for the safety of

:02:12. > :02:15.their children. This cannot happen while a significant number of

:02:16. > :02:19.domestic abuse victims face cross-examination by their abusers.

:02:20. > :02:25.The Lord Chancellor has requested urgent advice on how to put an end

:02:26. > :02:28.to this practice. This sort of cross examination is illegal in the

:02:29. > :02:32.criminal courts and I am determined to see it banned in family courts

:02:33. > :02:38.also. We are considering the most comprehensive and efficient way of

:02:39. > :02:41.making that happen. That will help family courts to concentrate on the

:02:42. > :02:45.key concerns for the family and always put the children's interests

:02:46. > :02:50.first, which is what they are supposed to do. This work, which is

:02:51. > :02:55.being fast tracked within the Department, is looking in particular

:02:56. > :02:57.at the provisions in the criminal law which presents alleged

:02:58. > :03:02.perpetrators from cross-examining their alleged victims in criminal

:03:03. > :03:06.proceedings, and we are considering how we might apply similar

:03:07. > :03:10.provisions in the slightly different circumstances of family proceedings.

:03:11. > :03:14.Members will appreciate such a proposal does require thought, but

:03:15. > :03:19.we want to resolve it as soon as possible. We will be making further

:03:20. > :03:24.details available shortly once the work is complete. I would like to

:03:25. > :03:26.thank the president of the family division who has argued passionately

:03:27. > :03:33.that this practice should be outlawed for good. This is an issue

:03:34. > :03:37.that has been wreaking untold devastation on victims of domestic

:03:38. > :03:41.violence. I have spoken to numerous survivors of abuse his accounts of

:03:42. > :03:45.torment under cross-examination, often by convicted rapist in the

:03:46. > :03:50.family Court, are devastating to hear but impossible for most of us

:03:51. > :03:53.to imagine. I have spoken to woman who was cross-examined by a man who

:03:54. > :03:56.was in jail for numerous counts of rape and abuse that left her

:03:57. > :04:01.unconscious and hospitalised. As a result of the family court process,

:04:02. > :04:05.this vulnerable woman needed weeks of medication and months of

:04:06. > :04:10.counselling to recover. She has now suffered this ordeal three times. I

:04:11. > :04:14.have spoken to the sister of a woman who was abuse egregiously it

:04:15. > :04:19.resulted in her death. The convicted murderer then sued the custody of

:04:20. > :04:23.their child from prison where he was serving a life sentence for murder.

:04:24. > :04:28.He directly cross-examined the sister of the woman he murdered.

:04:29. > :04:35.Even having the grotesque nerve to ask, what makes you think you can be

:04:36. > :04:41.a parent to my child? Abuse is being continued, perpetuated right under

:04:42. > :04:43.the noses of judges and police. The very institutions that should be

:04:44. > :04:49.protecting the vulnerable with every sinew of state power. On September

:04:50. > :04:53.the 15th last year in response to speeches from members from both

:04:54. > :04:57.sides of the House, the Parliamentary under Secretary of

:04:58. > :05:03.State for Justice said this was a scourge which blights our society.

:05:04. > :05:06.Yet he made no commitment to review or to change policy. Sadly, it took

:05:07. > :05:10.the excellent coverage of the Guardian over the Christmas break

:05:11. > :05:14.for that to emerge from the Justice Department. However, the source was

:05:15. > :05:19.anonymous. Can the Minister give clarity in the following areas...

:05:20. > :05:22.Lord Justice Mumby, the president of the family court division supports

:05:23. > :05:27.members to outlaw the cross-examination of victims by

:05:28. > :05:30.perpetrators. He said this would require primary legislation. Does

:05:31. > :05:34.the Minister agree with this assessment? If so, would he

:05:35. > :05:39.prioritise the drafting and the deduction of any such legislation as

:05:40. > :05:43.a priority? The anonymous source told the Guardian, this was a matter

:05:44. > :05:48.of urgency for the Secretary of State. Can he tell the House, when

:05:49. > :05:52.this review was started, and more importantly, when it will be

:05:53. > :05:57.completed? Victims of abuse need to have precision and clarity at this

:05:58. > :06:01.moment of great importance for them. Speed is of the essence, but so is

:06:02. > :06:07.consultation. We need to get this right. Can the Minister tell us what

:06:08. > :06:11.process is underway to enable victims and campaigners and support

:06:12. > :06:14.organisations to feeding their essential experiences and views in

:06:15. > :06:20.order that this review will at all times, be carried out with and not

:06:21. > :06:25.done too, survivors of domestic abuse. And finally, as I told the

:06:26. > :06:29.House back in September, it is a source of shame to me personally, I

:06:30. > :06:33.got the age I am today without being aware such barbarism is being

:06:34. > :06:39.practised within our own legal system. In addition to my lack of

:06:40. > :06:43.inquisitiveness, which I regret profoundly, the secrecy imposed by

:06:44. > :06:47.law on the family court process allowed this to continue without

:06:48. > :06:52.journalistic oversight. Will he consider longer term assessment of

:06:53. > :06:56.the wider operational activity of the family court system? This should

:06:57. > :07:00.look in a considered and detailed way of the overall operation of the

:07:01. > :07:05.family courts with a view to making sure, where appropriate, the greater

:07:06. > :07:11.transparency and oversight of the family court process is introduced?

:07:12. > :07:14.Order. Just before we proceed, let me just say this, the honourable

:07:15. > :07:18.gentleman has raised an extremely serious matter and he has done so on

:07:19. > :07:24.the back of considerable knowledge and research. He has aired the issue

:07:25. > :07:29.in this House with great sensitivity. I did not wish to

:07:30. > :07:34.interrupting, not least for that obvious reason. But perhaps I can

:07:35. > :07:40.announce to the House New Year's resolution and that is, we must,

:07:41. > :07:43.from now on, we must, without fail, stick to the established time limits

:07:44. > :07:49.for urgent questions. The honourable gentleman was notified of the two

:07:50. > :07:57.minute limit and he took over three minutes. The second point, the brief

:07:58. > :08:02.this preamble of description is fine, but an urgent question is

:08:03. > :08:08.supposed to be that, not a speech, not a contribution to debate, but a

:08:09. > :08:12.series of questions. I know the honourable gentleman well and I know

:08:13. > :08:15.he will not take offence because he has raised important matters, but in

:08:16. > :08:18.future it must be done in accordance with the proper form and to time.

:08:19. > :08:28.The Minister of April. Can I start by agreeing with the

:08:29. > :08:33.honourable gentleman on many of the points he has made. Judges have

:08:34. > :08:37.always had discretion to try to get to the truth of the matter and to

:08:38. > :08:42.protect families and so on and judges have discretion to ask

:08:43. > :08:45.questions themselves to avoid situations arising which are against

:08:46. > :08:52.the interests of justice. But over recent years the judges have come

:08:53. > :08:56.more concerned about situations, as the honourable gentleman has said,

:08:57. > :09:00.where the abuse is being perpetrated through the proceedings and that is

:09:01. > :09:03.why Sir James Mumby has spoken out and why the department is treating

:09:04. > :09:09.this as something that should be dealt with as a matter of urgency.

:09:10. > :09:15.Is it necessary to change the law? The answer is it is. In order to ban

:09:16. > :09:18.cross-examination it would be necessary for primary legislation

:09:19. > :09:24.and there are ancillary matters relating to this which would require

:09:25. > :09:28.legislation. Is work being done? Yes, it is being done at great pains

:09:29. > :09:33.to ensure that all these matters are dealt with in a comprehensive and

:09:34. > :09:38.effective way and so the urgency is there. This is something I became

:09:39. > :09:42.the minister dealing with these matters in October. I chaired the

:09:43. > :09:47.family Justice board and we have become very concerned over that

:09:48. > :09:50.period about this issue and the Lord Chancellor shares that concern,

:09:51. > :09:55.which is why we are moving at speed to try and tackle this. The extent

:09:56. > :09:59.to which consultation is necessary is something I will consider in the

:10:00. > :10:05.light of the honourable gentleman's comments and will discuss it with

:10:06. > :10:11.him in private. But it is pretty straightforward what is required, a

:10:12. > :10:13.band and then the ancillary measures which are necessary to allow

:10:14. > :10:19.cross-examination without the perpetrator doing it. The extent to

:10:20. > :10:24.which a wide consultation is needed I will question. Finally, in terms

:10:25. > :10:27.of transparency in the cause, journalists are now able to attend

:10:28. > :10:36.court and report proceedings but there are obvious restrictions to

:10:37. > :10:41.protect children and the like. The Minister is to be congratulated on

:10:42. > :10:46.moving promptly on this matter and the family division is to be

:10:47. > :10:51.congratulated. Would my right honourable friend accept the simple

:10:52. > :10:55.solution would be probably to adopt the criminal procedures under the

:10:56. > :11:02.1991 legislation lock stock and barrel and use the format to put

:11:03. > :11:08.that into primary lock and accept the very modest public expenditure

:11:09. > :11:10.of a court appointed to do the cross-examination where justice

:11:11. > :11:14.requires would be a drop in the ocean compared to the benefits and

:11:15. > :11:19.the interest of justice to individuals who are victims of

:11:20. > :11:24.abuse? I am very grateful to the chairman of the Select Committee for

:11:25. > :11:27.those comments. I agree with a good deal of it. There are some

:11:28. > :11:34.differences from criminal proceedings. For example in a case

:11:35. > :11:40.where an injunction is being sought whether it is not a criminal charge

:11:41. > :11:45.or a case where perhaps money is being considered, but there is a

:11:46. > :11:51.background of abuse. In fact for legal aid in cases of domestic abuse

:11:52. > :11:55.that is a wider list than is available in terms of criminal

:11:56. > :12:00.proceedings, but the basic point he makes is right. As to the bill, I am

:12:01. > :12:04.not able to give a commitment on that, it would depend on how quickly

:12:05. > :12:14.the work was concluded and that is something I am working on very fast.

:12:15. > :12:16.I thank the honourable member for hope for asking this urgent question

:12:17. > :12:26.and that the Minister for asking this response. This issue really

:12:27. > :12:31.unite the House. Questioning victims in court has been repeatedly raised

:12:32. > :12:35.in this house and in the media. Many members on both sides of the House

:12:36. > :12:40.have constituents who have been left devastated by the experience so that

:12:41. > :12:44.the government is doing something to no end this practice is welcome. But

:12:45. > :12:50.this is a clear admission that the legal aid cuts have caused this

:12:51. > :12:53.situation. Victims of domestic violence struggled to provide

:12:54. > :12:58.evidence of their abuse because frequently they are not believed. In

:12:59. > :13:04.some cases medical evidence is difficult to obtain and their

:13:05. > :13:08.experience is made worse still because the abuser is also unable to

:13:09. > :13:14.get representation and is allowed to question them. Even in a situation

:13:15. > :13:18.where they are prevented from contacting that situation and so the

:13:19. > :13:23.abuse continues. But it need not be that way. In the criminal cause the

:13:24. > :13:27.cross-examination of a member accused of domestic violence is not

:13:28. > :13:32.allowed. Is the Ministry counting the numbers of litigants in person

:13:33. > :13:37.in the family courts? How many of those are victims of domestic

:13:38. > :13:41.violence? How many are convicted or alleged to have committed domestic

:13:42. > :13:45.violence? Will the Minister look to the practice in criminal cause and

:13:46. > :13:50.alongside prohibiting cross examination introduce greater use of

:13:51. > :13:59.more sensitive procedures? When will the review finally begin? At the

:14:00. > :14:06.honourable lady knows on her final point the review has to be concluded

:14:07. > :14:10.by the 18th of April, sorry by April, 2018, so it is not overdue

:14:11. > :14:15.yet, but it is something the government has very much in mind and

:14:16. > :14:20.which we will have to start fairly shortly. In terms of the other

:14:21. > :14:24.points, legal aid is available in cases of domestic abuse, that is why

:14:25. > :14:32.the government concentrated its efforts in legal aid on areas where

:14:33. > :14:36.people's lives liberties were at stake and in areas such as domestic

:14:37. > :14:41.abuse and housing were homes were at risk, so that is not an issue. But I

:14:42. > :14:45.accept the evidence criteria are important and that is why the

:14:46. > :14:51.government has allowed a longer period and a wider range of evidence

:14:52. > :14:55.to be used for that. I think that is something that has been welcome.

:14:56. > :15:00.Cross-examination by litigants in person takes place too much and she

:15:01. > :15:04.asked what the exact number is. It is not clear, but it is a

:15:05. > :15:09.considerable number, which is why the government considers this to be

:15:10. > :15:14.an important issue to tackle. Can I congratulate my honourable friend

:15:15. > :15:18.and welcome everything he says about the government's attitude to this

:15:19. > :15:23.long-standing problem. Could I urge him to look at the rules in relation

:15:24. > :15:27.to legal aid because there is strong anecdotal evidence from former

:15:28. > :15:30.colleagues of mine at the family bar and a judiciary that there is a

:15:31. > :15:36.direct consequence and link between the rise in litigants in person and

:15:37. > :15:40.the changes to legal aid actually begun under the last Labour

:15:41. > :15:44.government and it is this link between litigants in person that is

:15:45. > :15:48.causing so many of these problems and would he at least look at it and

:15:49. > :15:55.it may provide some of the solutions. As my honourable friend

:15:56. > :16:01.has rightly said, this is a long-standing issue, but it is one

:16:02. > :16:05.which has become particularly urgent and where the cries for help from

:16:06. > :16:10.the judges and others have become more urgent and that is why the

:16:11. > :16:15.government is tackling this issue. As regards litigants in person, it

:16:16. > :16:19.is necessary to find a way of stopping them using proceedings to

:16:20. > :16:25.continue the abuse. That is what we are aiming to do. May I welcome the

:16:26. > :16:30.Justice Secretary's emergency review and stress how important it is that

:16:31. > :16:33.we all focus across the UK on how to prevent the perpetrators of domestic

:16:34. > :16:41.abuse from using the processes of the justice system. In Scotland the

:16:42. > :16:45.government is engaged in a significant overhaul of the justice

:16:46. > :16:49.system ahead of the introduction of new legislation to introduce an all

:16:50. > :16:54.encompassing offence of domestic abuse to include all forms of

:16:55. > :16:58.coercive behaviour. In Scotland legal aid is widely available in

:16:59. > :17:03.both criminal and civil cases. In England and Wales are cuts to legal

:17:04. > :17:10.aid mean 80% of family cases seek at least one party without a lawyer and

:17:11. > :17:16.60% of cases in the family courts and neither partner has a lawyer.

:17:17. > :17:19.Victims of domestic abuse can only access legal aid if they cross a

:17:20. > :17:24.threshold test which has already been found to be too restrictive in

:17:25. > :17:28.the judicial review case. What we really need in addition to this

:17:29. > :17:34.review is a review of the criteria for access to legal aid for victims

:17:35. > :17:38.and survivors of domestic abuse. When will the government commit to

:17:39. > :17:45.that sort of review? The honourable and learned lady segued into a

:17:46. > :17:50.question just in time! I thank the honourable lady for that and for her

:17:51. > :17:55.news from Scotland. In terms of legal aid in England and Wales it

:17:56. > :17:59.was deliberately decided by my right honourable friend to concentrate the

:18:00. > :18:02.effort on the cases where people's' life, liberty and their homes or

:18:03. > :18:08.where there have been domestic abuses. Give it was a period of

:18:09. > :18:13.austerity and decisions had to be made, he got that judgment right. In

:18:14. > :18:17.terms of the criteria for legal aid and the evidence that needs to be

:18:18. > :18:21.provided, it is not as though the government has said it is set in

:18:22. > :18:25.stone. When criticisms have been made we have changed the rules to

:18:26. > :18:31.make a system which tackles those criticisms. My overall point would

:18:32. > :18:41.be that the government is responding when it should. Can I welcome a

:18:42. > :18:45.right honourable friend's announcements today and the work he

:18:46. > :18:51.is doing with the Lord Chancellor. But can I also draw his attention to

:18:52. > :18:54.a report published in April of this year which I published with my

:18:55. > :19:00.honourable friend the member for Birmingham Yardley, which not only

:19:01. > :19:04.picked upon this issue of cross examination, but look at the issues

:19:05. > :19:08.of special measures in court to make sure it is easier for some of the

:19:09. > :19:13.most vulnerable victims to give their evidence so they do not feel

:19:14. > :19:19.intimidated in that process? Can I pay tribute to my right honourable

:19:20. > :19:24.friend's work in this area which is important. I know the government and

:19:25. > :19:29.the ministerial committee that looks and violence against women and girls

:19:30. > :19:32.takes a particular note of it. As regards special measures, the family

:19:33. > :19:38.courts have always had a wider set of tools available to them than the

:19:39. > :19:43.criminal cause and the judges have a wide discretion. Measures such as

:19:44. > :19:48.taking cross-examination on a video basis, the section 28 in the

:19:49. > :19:52.criminal courts, you can do that in family cases. You can take evidence

:19:53. > :19:57.in a wide variety of ways, so there is a lot of protection there. We are

:19:58. > :20:02.going further with this and so measures to deal with the court,

:20:03. > :20:06.like ensuring there are separate waiting rooms, screens and those

:20:07. > :20:11.sorts of physical aspects, they are being covered. So is the training of

:20:12. > :20:21.the staff which is very important as well. I want to thank the Minister

:20:22. > :20:26.for highlighting the discretion already available. Could he say what

:20:27. > :20:31.steps he is taking now to remind the judiciary of the discretion that

:20:32. > :20:34.they have and how they can apply it? The honourable lady makes an

:20:35. > :20:37.important point and there are practice directions in the family

:20:38. > :20:43.division and one is being prepared at the moment and so I will make

:20:44. > :20:47.sure her comments are taken well on board in that direction, although we

:20:48. > :20:56.do not make the practice directions, but we can pass that on. I have been

:20:57. > :21:04.struck in my constituency surgeon sees surgeries, and one of my

:21:05. > :21:10.constituents complaining about this was a former police officer. Can I

:21:11. > :21:15.urge the Minister to use every tool possible to get this matter resolved

:21:16. > :21:19.as soon as possible? We have all had examples and I am glad my honourable

:21:20. > :21:27.friend was able to get that on the record. We have all had examples of

:21:28. > :21:30.cases were in a way and abuse has occurred in the court. That is

:21:31. > :21:32.something that is unconscionable and needs to stop and we need to tackle

:21:33. > :21:40.this very urgently. The question of who should be

:21:41. > :21:44.involved and consulted in this review, will the Minister Bear in

:21:45. > :21:50.mind party litigants cross-examining their victims is actually just one

:21:51. > :21:57.species of the controlling behaviour that lies at the heart of domestic

:21:58. > :22:01.abuse. It is for that reason there is a real and important role for

:22:02. > :22:06.organisations such as women's aid to have their voices heard in this

:22:07. > :22:11.process? The honourable gentleman makes an important point and of

:22:12. > :22:18.course the department does listen to what is said. The only point I make

:22:19. > :22:24.is this is a discrete issue. It is an issue about banning

:22:25. > :22:27.cross-examination by alleged perpetrators and making arrangements

:22:28. > :22:33.to ensure cross-examination can take place in a suitable way. I wouldn't

:22:34. > :22:43.want to sacrifice speed in tackling that for anything. Last week the

:22:44. > :22:52.country were shocked and saddened by the death of my constituent, Gill

:22:53. > :23:01.savoured, who campaigned for victims of sexual violence. She was

:23:02. > :23:03.instrumental in changing the law which stopped rapist cross-examining

:23:04. > :23:09.victims. Will my right honourable friend join me in paying tribute to

:23:10. > :23:14.Jill, expressing our sincere condolences to her family does he

:23:15. > :23:22.agree it is absolutely right the law is extended to the victims of

:23:23. > :23:36.domestic violence? I certainly think it is important to pay

:23:37. > :23:41.tribute to Jill Saward and she was someone who showed to the rest of

:23:42. > :23:46.her life what a wonderful person she was. Campaigning and doing charity

:23:47. > :23:50.work. She was a model and someone who was the example of good. I would

:23:51. > :23:58.like to pass the law which applies in criminal cases on into family so

:23:59. > :24:04.we can tackle the abuse described. I declare my interest as a member of

:24:05. > :24:09.Wilberforce chambers in Hull, although not currently practising. I

:24:10. > :24:14.welcome the Justice Secretary's position to bring forward a review

:24:15. > :24:20.of this issue. It clearly is an issue. But the Minister will no that

:24:21. > :24:24.this was created as a result of the legal aid sentencing and punishment

:24:25. > :24:33.of offenders act in 2012, because the truth is this, the very vast of

:24:34. > :24:36.what people now are refused legal representation in family

:24:37. > :24:40.proceedings, unless they can prove domestic violence, which is

:24:41. > :24:47.virtually impossible to prove. So maybe the government should be

:24:48. > :24:52.bringing forward a review, it isn't working, do something about it. I

:24:53. > :24:58.don't agree with him, but can I just say there will be a review, it is

:24:59. > :25:02.something we have promised. The date by which it has to be completed is

:25:03. > :25:07.in April 2018 and three are committed to doing that. In terms of

:25:08. > :25:12.the family proceedings, I think it is right that in many cases families

:25:13. > :25:16.can come together and reach agreements and we don't have the

:25:17. > :25:21.problem he outlined. But in some cases, and there are a significant

:25:22. > :25:26.number of individuals where abuse is present. In those cases, it is

:25:27. > :25:29.important the individual who is the victim shouldn't be cross examined

:25:30. > :25:41.by the alleged perpetrator and that is what we want to solve. Earlier we

:25:42. > :25:48.heard a cherry, now we can hear a Berry. Mr Jake Berry. Thank you Mr

:25:49. > :25:57.Speaker. Can I congratulate the Minister as to the taking this on.

:25:58. > :26:02.In his statement he has referred this as urgent. Will he commit when

:26:03. > :26:05.this review is complete, to bring this through as emergency

:26:06. > :26:09.legislation? I think it would forward support from all sides of

:26:10. > :26:12.the House and we could do with this legislation in one day in ensuring

:26:13. > :26:20.this could be changed as quickly as possible. Can I save the importance

:26:21. > :26:24.of this is accepted across the House. Whether it is the appropriate

:26:25. > :26:28.way of dealing with it or not, one thing is clear it should be dealt

:26:29. > :26:30.with as a matter of urgency and that is what I am committed to do. They

:26:31. > :26:54.should have said in the case of the point Laspo. On several occasions,

:26:55. > :27:00.the Minister has said he's dealing with it urgently. When will we the

:27:01. > :27:04.result? Of course the answer you get from the dispatch box is shortly,

:27:05. > :27:11.which is what I have said, but that doesn't mean shortly. The

:27:12. > :27:15.government's reforms around the family courts were designed to keep

:27:16. > :27:19.some of these antagonistic cases out of court altogether but the changes

:27:20. > :27:24.to legal aid had met there are more litigants in person in these very

:27:25. > :27:28.sensitive cases. Does he acknowledge the being caused by litigants in

:27:29. > :27:33.person on court resources, spinning out the times cases often take with

:27:34. > :27:36.constant advice legal procedures needed by the judge himself. We need

:27:37. > :27:46.to do something about this because it is messing up the family courts.

:27:47. > :27:53.I do accept how litigants are helped with court proceedings is important

:27:54. > :27:58.and the government spending ?3.5 million helping them. The point I

:27:59. > :28:02.make, it is not every case that needs to be decided in court and I

:28:03. > :28:08.am a strong supporter of mediation. I would like to see more of that.

:28:09. > :28:12.This is a welcome review, but cross-examination is not the only

:28:13. > :28:17.way which perpetrators exploit family core processors to perpetuate

:28:18. > :28:21.their abuse. Can I ask the Minister if the emergency review will look at

:28:22. > :28:26.the other ways in which abusers can, string out judicial process in the

:28:27. > :28:32.family courts to continue abusing former partners and their children?

:28:33. > :28:34.I will be happy to discuss the issue with the honourable lady and

:28:35. > :28:40.certainly in due course about the matter. But, this is a discrete

:28:41. > :28:43.area. It is an important one and I would like to see it tackle swiftly.

:28:44. > :28:52.I am not looking to widen what we are doing at the moment. I want to

:28:53. > :28:57.get on with this. Women's Aid have raised this issue and a number of

:28:58. > :29:02.occasions, including most recently where they found 25% of women they

:29:03. > :29:06.interviewed had been cross-examined on including one woman who had been

:29:07. > :29:10.raped, beaten and abused over six years, had been cross-examined for

:29:11. > :29:14.three hours. Notwithstanding the need to get it right, can I ask my

:29:15. > :29:18.honourable friend, when he does get it right in terms of review, we move

:29:19. > :29:24.to bring legislation as soon as possible to make sure this can never

:29:25. > :29:27.happen again? My honourable friend highlights an important case. He

:29:28. > :29:30.highlights the work of Women's Aid and I think he is right to say this

:29:31. > :29:40.is a matter that needs to be tackled urgently. The need for training of

:29:41. > :29:46.the judiciary goes beyond the family Court. I constituent of mine came to

:29:47. > :29:50.see me because her ex-partner talk a case in the civil courts about the

:29:51. > :29:55.management of family property. The judge said it was irrelevant that he

:29:56. > :30:02.was in prison for raping her daughter. This cannot be right, they

:30:03. > :30:06.need to be trained as well. Of course, that would not have been a

:30:07. > :30:12.family Justice case, it would have been a civil case. I agree with the

:30:13. > :30:20.honourable lady, that is also an important consideration. It is

:30:21. > :30:24.something I will look into. I very much welcome what the Minister has

:30:25. > :30:28.said today in his commitment to legislate. But in the meantime will

:30:29. > :30:33.he ensure the best possible support is in place to support these very

:30:34. > :30:38.vulnerable people, these victims, before, during and after these

:30:39. > :30:41.proceedings? Yes, as I mentioned in my response to the urgent question,

:30:42. > :30:48.a lot of effort has gone into training both court staff and others

:30:49. > :30:54.to provide emotional support that is needed. While I think we all welcome

:30:55. > :30:58.the tone of what the Minister has said today, this is supposed to be

:30:59. > :31:03.an urgent review. Many women are going through these cases right now

:31:04. > :31:10.so can we have some clarity that at least by Easter this review will be

:31:11. > :31:15.concluded and we will look to see improvements in our courts? Yes, I

:31:16. > :31:19.agree with that. I welcome the tone of the Minister's remarks. Will he

:31:20. > :31:23.agree with me the point about legal aid misses the fact some of these

:31:24. > :31:29.perpetrators are using the ability to cross examined as a tactic in the

:31:30. > :31:32.courts, motivating what they are doing and it is more important is

:31:33. > :31:40.plugged in the law is made to stop this practice from continuing? What

:31:41. > :31:46.is being put forward by a number of colleagues and my honourable friend

:31:47. > :31:50.has made the same point, it is a form of abuse in itself to be cross

:31:51. > :31:55.examining the victim in these circumstances. I agree with that,

:31:56. > :32:02.which is why we are keen to conclude this review on a short timetable, as

:32:03. > :32:05.I said to the honourable lady. I am grateful to the Minister for the

:32:06. > :32:10.terms in which he has replied to the urgent question. He has talked about

:32:11. > :32:17.the urgency of this issue. He has accepted the words of the chairman,

:32:18. > :32:21.the president of the family court that primary legislation would be

:32:22. > :32:26.needed. What commitment can he give to those survivors of domestic

:32:27. > :32:34.violence and abuse that change will be brought forward urgently? I can

:32:35. > :32:41.make the assurances I have made, we are tackling this as a matter of

:32:42. > :32:44.urgency. There is a busy legislative timetable with all sorts of matters

:32:45. > :32:49.to do with Europe and the like and we will have to see what can be

:32:50. > :32:55.achieved in terms of the legislative timetable, but I want to tackle this

:32:56. > :32:59.urgently. On behalf of of my constituent, Claire, whose children

:33:00. > :33:05.were murdered by her ex-husband, I welcome this review. But in the

:33:06. > :33:12.debate in September which I co-sponsored, the minister at his

:33:13. > :33:16.side made a clear commitment to overhauling the culture of the

:33:17. > :33:20.family courts, and in particular our review our practice direction 12. Is

:33:21. > :33:27.the government still committed to the broader set of changes we so

:33:28. > :33:30.urgently need to see? Can I just beat to the to the work the

:33:31. > :33:39.honourable lady has done on this issue. The family justice board

:33:40. > :33:42.which I'd share with another minister, the honourable member for

:33:43. > :33:48.Crewe and Nantwich. We are committed to improving the overall in which

:33:49. > :33:52.way the courts work and we are in the process of having a new practice

:33:53. > :34:01.direction in the area of victims. But it is certainly a point we are

:34:02. > :34:05.very much alive too. Everyone who has spoken today has said how urgent

:34:06. > :34:09.the situation is, including the minister himself. In view of this

:34:10. > :34:14.and in view of the fact he has said primary legislation will be needed,

:34:15. > :34:21.is there any reason why he could not present this in three or four

:34:22. > :34:27.months? As I have said to her colleague, we are keen to complete

:34:28. > :34:30.this review as a matter of urgency. Legislative programme is a complex

:34:31. > :34:35.matter at the moment, for reasons which I have already hinted that so

:34:36. > :34:39.we will have to see what is possible. But we would like to

:34:40. > :34:46.tackle it urgently. The questions has been on domestic violence, but

:34:47. > :34:50.can he confirm he is also seeking to implement this protection for

:34:51. > :34:53.victims of emotional, financial control and other forms of

:34:54. > :34:57.nonviolence abuse, which the government has, to its great credit,

:34:58. > :35:06.sought to criminalise in recent months? As he will know, there is a

:35:07. > :35:12.cross governmental approach to abuse which has its own definitions and so

:35:13. > :35:15.on. If he looks at the areas covered for abuse when it comes to

:35:16. > :35:20.applications for legal aid, he will see it is far wider than just

:35:21. > :35:24.physical violence, it includes sex abuse cases and the like. We are

:35:25. > :35:32.well alive to the need to cover a wider area than simply violence.

:35:33. > :35:36.Whilst I appreciate the urgency and scope of the investigation, can he

:35:37. > :35:41.give consideration to cases where the DWP are sharing the victims of

:35:42. > :35:44.domestic abuse's information with the perpetrators of the crime when

:35:45. > :35:50.making their decisions about benefits claims and giving, in the

:35:51. > :35:55.case of my constituent, her anonymity being taken away from her

:35:56. > :36:00.and it was passed on by the DWP? I am sure the honourable lady is

:36:01. > :36:04.making an important point. If she wanted to write to me speak to me

:36:05. > :36:09.about it I would be happy to look at it. But it is not what we are doing

:36:10. > :36:15.in this particular exercise by looking at the cross-examination of

:36:16. > :36:18.alleged perpetrators, it is a discreet, narrow area which we are

:36:19. > :36:28.tackling and we wanted tackle urgently. It is a different matter,

:36:29. > :36:33.but her point is important. Survivors of domestic abuse tell us

:36:34. > :36:37.they feel read Victor Mize and re-traumatised by their experience

:36:38. > :36:41.in the family Court. Could the minister give us more clarity on how

:36:42. > :36:42.the voices and views of survivors of domestic abuse will be considered in

:36:43. > :36:56.this emergency review? Well, my view of this is that it is

:36:57. > :36:58.now though issued to ban perpetrators, or alleged

:36:59. > :37:02.perpetrators from cross examining victims. I think this is something

:37:03. > :37:07.we all agree on. The sort of arrangement that there need to be

:37:08. > :37:10.put in place to tackle the issue of cross-examination are things that

:37:11. > :37:14.are being tried in the criminal courts. If she has any particular

:37:15. > :37:19.ideas or concerns about that I would obviously be happy to discuss it

:37:20. > :37:25.with her, but I don't think it is a complicated matter, but a simple one

:37:26. > :37:30.that needs urgent action. Thank you, whilst I'm aware that this debate

:37:31. > :37:35.focuses on the adult victims of domestic abuse, research shows that

:37:36. > :37:38.an estimated hundred and 30,000 children in the UK live in

:37:39. > :37:42.households with high risk of domestic abuse where there is a

:37:43. > :37:47.significant risk of harm or death and thousands more live with other

:37:48. > :37:52.levels of domestic abuse every single day. Can the Minister please

:37:53. > :37:57.clarify that as recommended by Women's Aid, there must not be an

:37:58. > :38:03.assumption of shared parenting in cases where domestic abuse is a

:38:04. > :38:08.feature? Well, I mean it is an important point and clearly the

:38:09. > :38:13.courts are very alive to this, but I think we do have to give some

:38:14. > :38:18.discretion, because the family cases are very wide and have the range of

:38:19. > :38:23.factors in them. I think the judges do a good job and I would just like

:38:24. > :38:27.to put on record that these aren't easy cases and judges do have to

:38:28. > :38:33.have an area of discretion. Although she makes a good point I would like

:38:34. > :38:39.to insure that remains the case. Thank you. Constituent came to meet

:38:40. > :38:42.extremely distressed she was having her husband repeatably take a back

:38:43. > :38:48.to the family court over access issues, so not only was she having

:38:49. > :38:53.the cross-examination she was also being driven into poverty by having

:38:54. > :39:01.to fund her own defence and her own case. Will the Minister also look at

:39:02. > :39:08.how courts can look at fixation is, repeated requests over access which

:39:09. > :39:13.are actually behind a lot of this POS of behaviour? -- a lot of this

:39:14. > :39:19.coercive behaviour. I think she makes a very important point, I am

:39:20. > :39:24.more than happy to raise this in the family Justice board and to look at

:39:25. > :39:30.it, but it's not part of the important work we're doing at the

:39:31. > :39:32.moment to try and do something urgently the issue of

:39:33. > :39:37.cross-examination. It is appointed that bears on it but it is not the

:39:38. > :39:43.absolute focus on what we're doing at the moment. But it is and we will

:39:44. > :39:46.look forward to -- we will look into. Statement the Secretary of

:39:47. > :40:05.State secretary Jeremy Hunt. With the mission I would like to

:40:06. > :40:09.make a statement about mental health and NHS performance. This government

:40:10. > :40:15.is committed to a shared society in which public services work to the

:40:16. > :40:18.highest standards for everyone. This includes plans announced by the

:40:19. > :40:25.Prime Minister this morning and mental health. I am proud that under

:40:26. > :40:29.this government 1400 more people are accessing mental health services

:40:30. > :40:33.every day compared to 2010. We are investing more in mental health than

:40:34. > :40:36.ever before, with plans for a million more people with mental

:40:37. > :40:52.health conditions to access services by 2020. But, we

:40:53. > :40:54.recognise there is more to do and so we will proceed with plans to

:40:55. > :40:55.further improve mental health provision including formally

:40:56. > :40:57.accepting the recommendations of the independent task force on mental

:40:58. > :41:00.health which will see mental health spending increase by ?1 billion a

:41:01. > :41:03.year by the end of parliament. A green paper on children and young

:41:04. > :41:07.People's mental health to be published by the end of the year,

:41:08. > :41:12.enabling every secondary school to train someone in mental health first

:41:13. > :41:16.aid. A new partnership with employers to support mental health

:41:17. > :41:20.in the workplace, at ?250 million extra invested in places of safety

:41:21. > :41:24.for those in crisis following the highly successful start to this

:41:25. > :41:30.programme in the last Parliament. An ambitious expansion of digital

:41:31. > :41:33.mental health provision and an updated and more comprehensive

:41:34. > :41:38.suicide prevention strategy, further details of these plans are contained

:41:39. > :41:46.in the written ministerial statement. However, telling the

:41:47. > :41:50.winter, as are most precious public surface the NHS has been under

:41:51. > :41:58.sustained pressure for a number of years. In just six years the number

:41:59. > :42:04.of people over 80 has risen by 340,000. And life expectancy has

:42:05. > :42:08.risen by 12 months. As a result demand is unprecedented. The Tuesday

:42:09. > :42:14.after Christmas was the busiest day in the history of the NHS. Some

:42:15. > :42:21.hospitals are reporting that Amy attendances are up to 30% higher

:42:22. > :42:28.compared to last year. -- A attendances. I therefore hope to set

:42:29. > :42:33.out how we intend to sustain it for the future. First I would like to

:42:34. > :42:41.pay tribute to staff on the front line. 1.3 million NHS staff,

:42:42. > :42:45.alongside another 1.4 million in the social care system, do an incredible

:42:46. > :42:54.job which is frankly humbling for all abuzz in this House. An

:42:55. > :42:57.estimated hundred and 50,000 medical staff and many non-medical staff

:42:58. > :43:00.worked on Christmas Day and New Year's Day, they have never worked

:43:01. > :43:08.harder to keep patients save and whole countries in their debt. With

:43:09. > :43:12.respect to this winter, the NHS has made more extensive preparations

:43:13. > :43:17.than ever before. We started the run-up to the winter period with

:43:18. > :43:24.over 600 more doctors and 3000 more nurses. Then just a year ago.

:43:25. > :43:32.Bringing the total increase since 2010 to 11,400 more doctors, and

:43:33. > :43:36.11,200 more hospital nurses. The NHS allocated ?400 million to local

:43:37. > :43:38.health systems for winter preparedness, it is nationally

:43:39. > :43:43.assured the winter plans of every trust, it launched the largest ever

:43:44. > :43:48.flu vaccination programme with over 30 million people already

:43:49. > :43:55.vaccinated, it also bolsters support outside a unease with 12,000

:43:56. > :44:00.additional GP sessions -- A The result has been that this winter has

:44:01. > :44:05.already seen days where a unease have treated an extra number of

:44:06. > :44:12.people within four hours. -- a record number of people. As head of

:44:13. > :44:16.NHS providers said, "Although there have been serious problems at some

:44:17. > :44:22.trust, the system as a whole is doing slightly better than last

:44:23. > :44:27.year." However, there are indeed a number of trusts where the situation

:44:28. > :44:32.has been extremely fragile, all of last week's a neat guy that happened

:44:33. > :44:37.at 19 trusts of which four are in special measurements. The most

:44:38. > :44:43.recent stats show that three quarters of the folly weight

:44:44. > :44:49.occurred in three trusts. In Worcestershire there has been a

:44:50. > :44:54.number of unexpectedly long trolley waits. We are also aware of ongoing

:44:55. > :45:00.problems in North Midlands with extremely high numbers of 12 hour

:45:01. > :45:13.trolley waits. Nationally the NHS has taken urgent action to... As of

:45:14. > :45:17.this week and there are some signs that that pressure is using both in

:45:18. > :45:25.the most distressed trusts and across the system. However, with a

:45:26. > :45:28.further cold weather and the way a spike in respiratory infections and

:45:29. > :45:34.a rise in blue will bring further challenges ahead. So, NHS England

:45:35. > :45:40.and NHS improvements will also consider further measures which May

:45:41. > :45:42.be taken in particularly distressed systems on a temporary basis at the

:45:43. > :45:51.discretion of local clinical leaders. They may include temporary

:45:52. > :45:53.release in time for GPs to support urgent care word, clinically

:45:54. > :46:00.triaging non-urgent calls to the Ambulance Service before they are

:46:01. > :46:03.taken to hospital, continuing to suspend collective care including

:46:04. > :46:10.where appropriate suspension of non-urgent outpatient appointing is,

:46:11. > :46:17.working on rapid reinspection when this has potential to reopen at

:46:18. > :46:20.capacity, working with community trusts and community nursing teams

:46:21. > :46:25.to speed up discharge. Taking together these actions will give the

:46:26. > :46:30.NHS the flexibility to take further measures as and when appropriate at

:46:31. > :46:35.a local level. However, looking to the future, it is clear we need have

:46:36. > :46:40.an honest discussion with the public about the purpose of A

:46:41. > :46:45.departments, there is nowhere outside the UK that commits to all

:46:46. > :46:49.patients that we will also out any health need within four hours, only

:46:50. > :47:12.four other countries New Zealand, Sweden, Australia and have similar

:47:13. > :47:14.national standards which are generally less stringent than ours.

:47:15. > :47:16.This government is committed to maintaining and delivering that

:47:17. > :47:19.vital for our commitment to patients, but since it was announced

:47:20. > :47:22.in 2000 there are nearly 9 million more visits to our a unease, up to

:47:23. > :47:25.30% of whom NHS England estimates do not need to be there and the tide is

:47:26. > :47:30.continuing to rise. So, if we are continuing to respect this for our

:47:31. > :47:35.standard we to be clear it is for urgent health problems not all

:47:36. > :47:40.health problems however minor. As the NHS England's medical director

:47:41. > :47:45.for acute care has said, "No country in the world has a standard for all

:47:46. > :47:51.health problems however small, and if we are to protect services for

:47:52. > :47:56.the most honourable neither can we." So we will continue to explore ways

:47:57. > :48:07.to ensure that at least some of the patients who do not need to be in

:48:08. > :48:11.A This way we will be able to improve the patient experience for

:48:12. > :48:15.those with more minor conditions who are currently not seen within four

:48:16. > :48:21.hours as well as protect the four hour promised for those who actually

:48:22. > :48:26.need it. Mr Speaker, taken together what I have announced today are

:48:27. > :48:31.plans to support the NHS in a difficult period, but also plans for

:48:32. > :48:36.a government that is ambitious for our NHS, quite simply to offer the

:48:37. > :48:40.safest, highest quality care available anywhere for both mental

:48:41. > :48:45.and physical health. But they will take time to come to fruition and in

:48:46. > :48:49.the meantime all our thoughts are with NHS and social care staff who

:48:50. > :48:53.were working extremely hard over the winter and throughout the year both

:48:54. > :49:00.inside and outside our hospitals and I commend the statement of the

:49:01. > :49:03.House. I'm grateful to the Secretary of State for advance copy of his

:49:04. > :49:07.statement and I begin by playing tribute to all the NHS staff who are

:49:08. > :49:11.working day in day out to provide the highest possible care to

:49:12. > :49:15.patients at the Spivey period. Of course, we welcome measures to

:49:16. > :49:22.improve mental health services. -- this busy period. We welcome and

:49:23. > :49:25.such announcements 12 months ago when the then Prime Minister made

:49:26. > :49:31.these announcements. But do you not agree that if you want to shine a

:49:32. > :49:41.light on mental health position you should aim had taught and... A

:49:42. > :49:44.reduction in mental health head, 400 fewer doctors working in mental

:49:45. > :49:49.health and perhaps most disgracefully of all the raiding of

:49:50. > :49:58.children's local mental health budgets in order to plug funding

:49:59. > :50:06.gaps in the widening NHS. Why were you unable to compare that the money

:50:07. > :50:11.the mental health would be ring fenced? We would welcome support on

:50:12. > :50:17.measures to improve mental health in schools, would the government offer

:50:18. > :50:19.more resources to local authority psychologists, and what provision

:50:20. > :50:25.would be in place to give teachers suitable training? Tending to the

:50:26. > :50:31.winter crisis, this morning the Secretary of State said that things

:50:32. > :50:37.have only been, "Falling over in a couple of places." Let's look at the

:50:38. > :50:47.facts, a third of hospitals declared last month they needed help to deal

:50:48. > :50:53.with patients coming through the doors, 15 hospitals ran out of bed

:50:54. > :50:58.in one day in December, several hospitals have warned they can't

:50:59. > :51:03.offer comprehensive care, elderly patients have been left languishing

:51:04. > :51:08.on hospital trolleys in corridors sometimes but over 24-hour 's and he

:51:09. > :51:15.says care is only falling over in eight couple of places. I know Lala

:51:16. > :51:19.land did well at the globes last night, I didn't realise the

:51:20. > :51:24.Secretary of State was living there, perhaps that's where he was all

:51:25. > :51:30.weekend. Can he confirm that the NHS is facing a winter crisis and the

:51:31. > :51:33.blame for this lies at the door of number ten Downing St? Does the

:51:34. > :51:41.Secretary of State agree it was an error to ignore the pleas for extra

:51:42. > :51:49.funds for social care in the Autumn Statement? Willy now bring forward

:51:50. > :51:58.extra money allocated the social care's and Willie edge the

:51:59. > :52:04.Chancellor and the Prime Minister... And with respect to the four hour a

:52:05. > :52:09.any target he has just announced can repressive however, is he now really

:52:10. > :52:14.telling patients that rather then trying to hit back for our target,

:52:15. > :52:20.the government is now free writing and down grading it? If so, does NHS

:52:21. > :52:25.England support this move and what guidance has he taken from the Royal

:52:26. > :52:32.College of emergency medicine is that this is an appropriate change?

:52:33. > :52:37.This Secretary of State has made patient safety a priority in that he

:52:38. > :52:42.has our support, will he agree that one of the most upsetting reports to

:52:43. > :52:46.come out of hospitals last week was the death of two patients at

:52:47. > :52:51.Worcestershire wall and hospital trolleys. Can I ask the Secretary of

:52:52. > :52:54.State whether he will lead an enquiry into these deaths? Does he

:52:55. > :52:59.know whether these were isolated incidences and when does the trust

:53:00. > :53:04.it intend to report back and will he undertake to keep the House updated

:53:05. > :53:10.on these matters? In conclusion, there is no doubt that this current

:53:11. > :53:15.crisis could have been averted, hospital bottoms, council leaders,

:53:16. > :53:20.patient groups, MPs, urged the council to give the NHS and social

:53:21. > :53:26.care extra money in the Autumn Statement, those requests fell on

:53:27. > :53:30.deaf ears and we are now seeing the dismal consequences. NHS staff

:53:31. > :53:32.deserve better, patients deserve better, the government needs to do

:53:33. > :53:46.better can I I am happy to respond to his

:53:47. > :53:51.comments and the Commons of all on rebel members. But I say this about

:53:52. > :53:57.the tone of what he said. He speaks as if the NHS never had any problems

:53:58. > :54:02.over the winter when Labour was in power. Let me say to him very

:54:03. > :54:08.simply, the one thing NHS staff don't want right now is for any

:54:09. > :54:16.party to start weaponised in the NHS for party political purposes. Let me

:54:17. > :54:20.remind him when his party runs the NHS, double the number of people are

:54:21. > :54:25.on waiting lists for treatment, people wait twice as long to have

:54:26. > :54:33.their hips replaced. Whatever the problems are in the NHS, Labour is

:54:34. > :54:37.not the solution. He talked about mental health. Let me tell him what

:54:38. > :54:40.is happening on mental health. Thanks to the efforts of this

:54:41. > :54:45.government and the Conservative led coalition, we have some of the

:54:46. > :54:48.highest dementia diagnosis rates in the world. Talking therapies

:54:49. > :54:53.programme, which is one of the most popular programmes for the treatment

:54:54. > :54:57.of depression and anxiety, is treating 750,000 more people every

:54:58. > :55:03.year and is being copied by people in Sweden. We are treating, every

:55:04. > :55:08.day, 1400 more people for mental health conditions. We have record

:55:09. > :55:13.numbers of psychiatrist. He mentioned mental health nurses, we

:55:14. > :55:17.are training 8000 more, 22% increase. This is backed up by what

:55:18. > :55:21.we are confirming today, which hasn't been done before, the

:55:22. > :55:27.government is accepting the report of the independent task force review

:55:28. > :55:31.led by the Chief Executive of Mind which commits us to spending ?1

:55:32. > :55:35.billion more on mental health by the end of this Parliament. That would

:55:36. > :55:41.not be possible with the spending commitments Labour was prepared to

:55:42. > :55:45.make NHS in the last Parliament. It is because of this government's

:55:46. > :55:51.funding we can make this commitment on mental health. Now, he talked

:55:52. > :55:57.about the NHS and he gave completely the wrong impression of what I said

:55:58. > :56:00.this morning. I was completely clear that all NHS hospitals are operating

:56:01. > :56:06.under greater pressure than they have ever operated under. But, he

:56:07. > :56:11.should perhaps listen to independent voices like Chris Hobson, no friend

:56:12. > :56:15.of the government when it comes to NHS policy, who is very clear that

:56:16. > :56:22.in the vast majority of trusts, people are coping slightly better

:56:23. > :56:26.but we have serious problems in a few trusts, including Worcestershire

:56:27. > :56:32.and a number of others. I can commit to him we will follow closely, the

:56:33. > :56:34.reports and investigations into the two reported deaths at

:56:35. > :56:42.Worcestershire and keep the House updated. He talked about social

:56:43. > :56:49.care, social care last year 's spending went up by around ?600

:56:50. > :56:53.million. He stood on a platform at the last election of not a penny

:56:54. > :57:00.more to local authorities for social care. Not a penny more. To stand

:57:01. > :57:05.here as a defender of social care is frankly an insult to vulnerable

:57:06. > :57:07.people up and down the people, but particularly people living under

:57:08. > :57:13.Labour councils like Hounslow, Merton and Ealing, where they are

:57:14. > :57:18.refusing to raise social care but complaining about social care

:57:19. > :57:22.funding. He also talked more generally about NHS funding. I'd

:57:23. > :57:25.just say this... In the last Parliament it wasn't the

:57:26. > :57:31.conservatives who put funding for the NHS, it was his party who put

:57:32. > :57:35.funding for the NHS. It wasn't the Conservatives who said funding the

:57:36. > :57:38.five-year forward view was impossible, it was his party. They

:57:39. > :57:45.said the cheque would bounce. It hasn't bounced and we are putting

:57:46. > :57:48.that money in. Tough as it is on the NHS front line, I do say he was

:57:49. > :57:56.right to raise this issue in this House, but wrong to raise it in the

:57:57. > :58:01.way he did. The NHS as record doctors, record nurses, record

:58:02. > :58:04.funding, care, despite the pressures of winter is safer, high-quality and

:58:05. > :58:08.reaching more people than ever before and it is time to support

:58:09. > :58:15.those on the front line not try to use them for party political points.

:58:16. > :58:20.I welcomed the Secretary of State's statement and the Prime Minister's

:58:21. > :58:23.focus on mental health. She spoke of holding the NHS leadership to

:58:24. > :58:27.account for the extra billion that will be investing in mental health.

:58:28. > :58:34.Could the Secretary of State set out in further detail how CCG 's will be

:58:35. > :58:43.held accountable so we can deliver progress and parity? I can

:58:44. > :58:46.absolutely do that. We have had a patchy record in the NHS of making

:58:47. > :58:52.sure money promised for mental health actually reaches the front

:58:53. > :58:55.line. The way we intend to address this is by independently compiled

:58:56. > :59:01.Ofsted style ratings for every CCG in the country that actually

:59:02. > :59:05.highlights where mental health provision is inadequate. Those

:59:06. > :59:10.ratings are decided by an independent committee chaired by the

:59:11. > :59:19.same Paul Farmer, who is responsible for the independent task force

:59:20. > :59:27.report. I am confident we can shine a light on those areas that are not

:59:28. > :59:31.delivering. After the recent enquiry the Health Select Committee did into

:59:32. > :59:35.suicide, I absolutely welcome the extra funding to mental health and

:59:36. > :59:40.I'm sure the Secretary of State remembers some of the discussions we

:59:41. > :59:44.had in that room. I also pay tribute to the staff and obviously with my

:59:45. > :59:50.background, I know what it is like when A is swamped when you don't

:59:51. > :59:54.have anywhere to put people. I don't think the staff across NHS England

:59:55. > :00:00.are afraid of us discussing this topic and weaponised and yet, they

:00:01. > :00:05.are in tears, they are exhausted, they are demoralised, they have

:00:06. > :00:10.never experienced a winter like this. Perhaps the secretary of State

:00:11. > :00:14.can explain why his figures suggest 19 diverts and only two trusts in

:00:15. > :00:19.serious problems. Where as what we're hearing from the Nuffield

:00:20. > :00:23.trust, it is 40 or 50 trusts diverging, which it is absurd. That

:00:24. > :00:30.means it is widespread. Talking about, and I people going to A who

:00:31. > :00:33.don't need to be there, but they are not the people three deep on

:00:34. > :00:40.trolleys waiting for a bed for 36 hours. Those are people who need a

:00:41. > :00:43.bed and they are ill. We have discussed sustainability on several

:00:44. > :00:49.occasions and the concern people have is because they don't have the

:00:50. > :00:55.money to redesign, they are starting with A closures and bed cuts. I

:00:56. > :01:00.would hope this incident would show that simply isn't possible. It is

:01:01. > :01:04.not possible for the UK and particularly NHS England to lose any

:01:05. > :01:13.more beds. In Scotland we face the same problem of increased demand and

:01:14. > :01:18.shortage of doctors. A 49% of our patients were seen within four hours

:01:19. > :01:22.in Christmas week. And it is estimated in areas of England, it is

:01:23. > :01:26.within 50 and 60%. The difference is how it is organised, it is the

:01:27. > :01:32.fragmentation, the lack of integration. There are things to be

:01:33. > :01:38.done, use community pharmacies and GPs and try and bring the NHS back

:01:39. > :01:44.together. I hope the honourable lady won't take offence if I say her

:01:45. > :01:47.questions must be judged to be rhetorical questions. Secretary of

:01:48. > :02:05.State. I was handy at-bats, but that was

:02:06. > :02:08.then! This is now, that was when I was a badly behaved backbencher,

:02:09. > :02:15.like the honourable gentleman. Secretary of State. I will try to

:02:16. > :02:20.interpret the questions in what she said. If he is saying are the

:02:21. > :02:23.problems in England similar to Scotland, I think we share problems,

:02:24. > :02:29.particularly across the busy winter period and she has observed in

:02:30. > :02:33.Scotland they are failing to meet targets in Scotland. But she is

:02:34. > :02:38.right to say bed capacity is an absolutely critical issue. It is an

:02:39. > :02:43.issue which we have not always got right in England. Beds have been

:02:44. > :02:46.decommissioned and actually the alternative provision that was

:02:47. > :02:52.promised has not been made and it has had knock-on effects. When it

:02:53. > :02:56.comes to what happens in Scotland and England, Scotland has gone

:02:57. > :02:59.further than England in terms of use of community pharmacy and that is

:03:00. > :03:03.something to be commended. But England has gone further in our

:03:04. > :03:07.plans for reforming and increasing investment into general practice,

:03:08. > :03:10.which is what the president of the Royal College of GPs was talking

:03:11. > :03:18.about over Christmas, and she is keen for Scotland to match the

:03:19. > :03:21.package we have done in England. I commend my right honourable friend

:03:22. > :03:25.for his statement. All of us know the work done in our local areas and

:03:26. > :03:30.those working for the NHS at such a difficult time. In relation to

:03:31. > :03:38.mental health, would he confirmed the Prime Minister's welcome speech

:03:39. > :03:42.this morning emphasised Perrinelle -- Perry mental health but also

:03:43. > :03:48.emphasise the point of transparency to make sure we know what it is CCGs

:03:49. > :03:50.are doing and assist members of parliament in the work, not only

:03:51. > :03:55.when we call for extra resource, but to make sure we play our part in

:03:56. > :04:02.making sure locally, our area does the best they can in compared with

:04:03. > :04:07.other areas rather make a general point and resources, which is the

:04:08. > :04:11.easiest one to make? As my colleague in the Department of Health who did

:04:12. > :04:17.a huge amount of good work on mental health, and on perinatal mental

:04:18. > :04:22.health, 20% of mothers suffer some form of postnatal depression and

:04:23. > :04:31.that has a huge impact on the child, costing around ?10,000 for every

:04:32. > :04:35.birth in the country caused by lack of proper mental health provision.

:04:36. > :04:39.This plan today means we can treat an extra 30,000 women, which we

:04:40. > :04:42.think is the number of women that need to be treated better. On

:04:43. > :04:48.transparency, he makes an important point. I would put it like this.

:04:49. > :04:52.Funding matters, but when it comes to mental health, we have some of

:04:53. > :04:56.the best mental health provision in the world, but it is inconsistent.

:04:57. > :05:00.The only way we can get it consistent is by shining a light on

:05:01. > :05:03.the different parts of the country, so we can bring all areas up to the

:05:04. > :05:12.standards of the best. Mr Dennis Skinner. Is the Minister aware, when

:05:13. > :05:18.he says there are 9 million more patient visits now, as opposed to

:05:19. > :05:27.the year 2000, it makes no sense at all that in that climate, shutting

:05:28. > :05:35.hospitals like the Community Hospital in Bolsover, and the

:05:36. > :05:39.Secretary of State turns a blind eye to it, will he look at this question

:05:40. > :05:49.because when you shut those hospitals, the beds are gone for

:05:50. > :05:56.ever. Get stuck in. I actually think he does make an important point. It

:05:57. > :06:03.isn't just about decisions to downgrade or close A when there

:06:04. > :06:07.isn't alternative provision, but it is community hospitals, which are

:06:08. > :06:14.important places for A and hospitals to step people down to. He

:06:15. > :06:18.is right, I am getting comments, but this is a process that has been

:06:19. > :06:22.going on in the NHS for decades and we have not always got it right

:06:23. > :06:26.under both parties. But he is right is said we need to make sure when

:06:27. > :06:34.there are changes in provision and community hospitals, we have good,

:06:35. > :06:43.alternative plans. Order. In wishing two members of the best in the weeks

:06:44. > :06:47.and months ahead, I Andrea Jenkins. First of all I would like to echo

:06:48. > :06:58.some of the points the Secretary of State has made. Regarding the

:06:59. > :07:04.support the mental health for expectant mothers. As one myself,

:07:05. > :07:07.the midwife has been fantastic right from the very first appointments, at

:07:08. > :07:15.grassroots level. We are feeling it on the ground.

:07:16. > :07:22.while 50 young people in Yorkshire received care the mental health, how

:07:23. > :07:27.would this new approach address the concerns of young people and their

:07:28. > :07:34.parents and what measures are in to reduce the waiting list? I would

:07:35. > :07:40.like to add my very good wishes and my confidence that she would get

:07:41. > :07:44.superb care from the NHS and thank her for her campaigning and

:07:45. > :07:52.patients' safety. She will be pleased to hear... In numbers, the

:07:53. > :07:57.plan that we are outlining will mean that we are treating a million more

:07:58. > :08:04.people a year with mental health conditions when it comes to young

:08:05. > :08:08.people an additional 70,000 people will get treatment every single year

:08:09. > :08:13.and that will I hope bring down the Camhs waiting times. But, we also

:08:14. > :08:20.want to do work in schools to stop people getting on this waiting list

:08:21. > :08:25.in the first place. The young mind survey before Christmas showed that

:08:26. > :08:29.in 50% of clinical commissioning group areas there is a failure to

:08:30. > :08:35.spend the full amount of investment allocated to children and young

:08:36. > :08:39.people's mental health. Which is scandalous. I noted his point about

:08:40. > :08:45.Ofsted like ratings, but doesn't he need instant use a system that

:08:46. > :08:49.guarantees that the money for children's mental health is spent as

:08:50. > :08:54.intended? He is writes to want to make sure that we live up to those

:08:55. > :08:58.promises that matter he is right. He was a minister when some of them

:08:59. > :09:02.were made and they are important promises. But I would say to him

:09:03. > :09:07.that we are delivering what he wants, we are on track this year to

:09:08. > :09:13.spending over a billion more compared to when he was Minister for

:09:14. > :09:17.mental health. It has taken time for the NHS to get their message on

:09:18. > :09:24.mental health but is getting through loud and clear. As a frequent user

:09:25. > :09:32.of the Red Cross myself, and admirer of it I regard their claims of being

:09:33. > :09:36.over the top. I'd join with the Minister in his tribute to the

:09:37. > :09:40.front-line staff of the NHS. Would he agree with me that these

:09:41. > :09:44.pressures are not in the go away and there must be a continuing drive for

:09:45. > :09:50.reform and to do these things better? And what will he tell the

:09:51. > :09:55.House, what are the impediments in the NHS to the sharing of best

:09:56. > :10:01.practice and secondly what steps is he creating, is he taking to create

:10:02. > :10:06.a more experienced and better trained leadership who are more

:10:07. > :10:15.prepared for the exceptional medical and management challenges the NHS

:10:16. > :10:19.now faces? Well, my right honourable is friend speaks extremely wisely

:10:20. > :10:23.and I think we have to be careful about the language we use in these

:10:24. > :10:29.situations, because many honourable people can be frightened if you get

:10:30. > :10:33.the tone wrong and the vast majority of NHS services are performing

:10:34. > :10:36.extremely well. His point and leadership is important, and one I

:10:37. > :10:41.have given a lot of thought to come at the heart of it the problem is

:10:42. > :10:46.that in this country, we don't have enough hospitals being run by

:10:47. > :10:53.doctors and nurses. Alain 56% of our managers have a clinical at ground,

:10:54. > :11:00.-- around 56%. Which compares to 96% in Sweden, to put it bluntly doctors

:11:01. > :11:04.like to be given instructions by other doctors. If you are an

:11:05. > :11:08.exceptional person, non-clinical background you can do it, but it is

:11:09. > :11:12.hard because doctors are highly experienced people, so I have put in

:11:13. > :11:18.place measures to try and make it easier for more clinicians to become

:11:19. > :11:26.an managers of the future. In wishing the honourable member for

:11:27. > :11:32.Liverpool way victory... In her speech to date the Prime Minister

:11:33. > :11:36.made a number of many hard-hitting observations, she said "There is no

:11:37. > :11:40.excluding the fact that people with mental health problems are not

:11:41. > :11:46.treated the same as if they had a physical ailment." She told us about

:11:47. > :11:51.the shocking reality that an average 13 people take their life every

:11:52. > :11:55.single day in England. Given that the Conservative Party has been in

:11:56. > :11:58.government for almost seven years and the Secretary of State has been

:11:59. > :12:02.Health Secretary for almost four of those years, he does he think is

:12:03. > :12:10.responsible for the PowerBook failures highlighted by the pie

:12:11. > :12:19.minister today? -- I think that is a totally inappropriate question. With

:12:20. > :12:22.great respect to her, and she campaigned tirelessly on mental

:12:23. > :12:26.health and deserves great credit and that is, that is the same as saying

:12:27. > :12:30.that the last Labour government should have sorted out every single

:12:31. > :12:34.problem in mental health by 2010, and another stunning him and saying

:12:35. > :12:41.that because the truth is that we have made good progress. If she

:12:42. > :12:47.thinks it's trivial but we are treating 400 people every day... She

:12:48. > :12:53.should go inspectors some of her constituencies who are getting

:12:54. > :12:58.access to mental health... We have made big strides but there is much

:12:59. > :13:04.more to do and we are determined to do what it takes. Recognising that a

:13:05. > :13:09.supply of extra resources for the NHS will be a rifle and continuing

:13:10. > :13:14.issue, isn't my right honourable friend right when he says that equal

:13:15. > :13:19.attention needs to be given to controlling demand so that people

:13:20. > :13:22.don't instinctively make calls an GP services in any department which

:13:23. > :13:27.doctors themselves believe are avoidable and can be dealt with in

:13:28. > :13:31.other ways? I think my right honourable friend 's beak is

:13:32. > :13:38.extremely wisely and at the heart of it, we have a good commitment,

:13:39. > :13:43.before our commitment. -- speaks extremely wisely. I think it is one

:13:44. > :13:51.of the best thing the NHS does, the problem that it you are ill we will

:13:52. > :13:55.do something about it in four hours. However, if you have a situation

:13:56. > :13:59.which NHS England describes as of the 30% of people don't taxi need to

:14:00. > :14:05.be there, then you risk not being able to deliver that promised the

:14:06. > :14:09.people that axiom do need it. Looking at control of demand for

:14:10. > :14:23.people who don't need to be in Amy 's, and -- Amy Makros. He seems to

:14:24. > :14:27.believe blaming the public for... He well knows that the reason the

:14:28. > :14:34.public go to Amy is because they can't get their GP and social care

:14:35. > :14:38.is in crisis. Will he confirm that he has announced a significant

:14:39. > :14:43.watering down of the four hour commitment and what is he personally

:14:44. > :14:46.doing to address the chronic long-term underperformance of

:14:47. > :14:51.hospitals like that of Worcester where two people died and trolleys.

:14:52. > :14:57.And Plymouth who wear one of the hospitals that had to call in the

:14:58. > :15:02.Red Cross. I think probably because of the fall and that we are in now

:15:03. > :15:09.he is misinterpreting what I have said, but it needs to be put right.

:15:10. > :15:13.-- because of the fall. I have not watered down the four our target I

:15:14. > :15:17.have recommitted the government to. Maybe he wasn't listening but I just

:15:18. > :15:23.said that I thought it was one of the best things about the NHS. But,

:15:24. > :15:29.the public will go to the place where it is easier to get in front

:15:30. > :15:32.of a doctor quickly and if we don't recognise that there is an issue

:15:33. > :15:38.with the fact that people who don't need to go to Amy Makros are going

:15:39. > :15:43.there we won't make their needs better by his constituencies and

:15:44. > :15:49.mind. If he asked what are we doing to in difficulty, we have introduced

:15:50. > :15:56.a new chief inspector of hospitals, which his party tried to write down.

:15:57. > :16:00.Mr Speaker can I welcome the Prime Minister's announcement and the

:16:01. > :16:03.Secretary of State's confirmation about the extra support the mental

:16:04. > :16:09.health and particularly welcomed the review to be led by Lord Stevenson,

:16:10. > :16:12.as they carry out that review into improving businesses ability to

:16:13. > :16:16.support people with mental health problems can they look at how we can

:16:17. > :16:20.help smaller businesses, those that don't have the human resource

:16:21. > :16:24.expertise that larger businesses may have, to make sure that people with

:16:25. > :16:33.mental health and stay in work and are able to get back into work when

:16:34. > :16:36.they fall out of work. They are the biggest single category of disabled

:16:37. > :16:38.people not currently working and we could make a huge difference. He

:16:39. > :16:44.will know that from his distinguished time as a minister in

:16:45. > :16:48.the blue WP -- in the DWP. We are trying to address the fact that if

:16:49. > :16:53.someone stops going to work, is signed off because of severe

:16:54. > :17:00.depression, that is ad for the individual and for the business.

:17:01. > :17:03.But, too often what happens is then it becomes entirely the NHS's

:17:04. > :17:07.responsibility to get that person after work. And the business think

:17:08. > :17:10.it's not their responsibility not any more. But with help from the

:17:11. > :17:14.business we could get that has them back to work much more quickly,

:17:15. > :17:22.which would mean they would recover more quickly and the business

:17:23. > :17:28.wouldn't lose so much money. We will never solve the challenges facing

:17:29. > :17:34.the NHS and social care until there is a long-term settlement for

:17:35. > :17:37.funding both. Does the Secretary of State understand that the social

:17:38. > :17:42.care preset is completely inadequate to filling in the gap and will

:17:43. > :17:47.increase inequalities because the areas that most need probably bonded

:17:48. > :17:52.pair will be least able to raise that money? Will he speak to the

:17:53. > :17:55.Chancellor and this the energy secretary to look again at this

:17:56. > :18:01.issue and get the funding social care desperately needs? I do agree

:18:02. > :18:04.with hair that there are serious funding pressures and social care

:18:05. > :18:09.and we need a long-term solution to this and we are doing important work

:18:10. > :18:15.on that. I think the preset is part of the solution the local government

:18:16. > :18:21.settlement has been adjusted to take account of the different spending

:18:22. > :18:24.powers or revenue raising powers of wealthier counties and local

:18:25. > :18:30.authority areas compared to other areas. We have to take into account

:18:31. > :18:33.the equality issue. But, issue saying how we sold the whole

:18:34. > :18:43.problem, the answer is no there was more work to do. Can I welcome the

:18:44. > :18:46.statement that could I pay a huge tribute to everyone working at

:18:47. > :18:50.Nottingham University trust especially inanely and especially in

:18:51. > :19:00.the nine days between Christmas and January the 2nd -- especially in the

:19:01. > :19:07.nine days. There are hundred and 80 people in the Amy Department seeking

:19:08. > :19:15.treatment, 395 more admissions then discharges in that nine-day period.

:19:16. > :19:20.So, we'll huge tribute to everyone. Could I get an assurance that he

:19:21. > :19:24.will continue to work with our hospital trusts as they bring

:19:25. > :19:30.forward plans to change schemes, it's not just simply about money,

:19:31. > :19:35.and do everything he can to support them? I am happy to do that and I

:19:36. > :19:39.will echo her praise for this staff at Nottingham University trust, who

:19:40. > :19:42.I know where particularly pressured over Christmas, and two I know made

:19:43. > :19:48.particular efforts to improve patient safety at the recent years.

:19:49. > :19:56.But, she's absolutely right and I will continue to work closely with

:19:57. > :19:59.her trust. At 930 this morning I received an e-mail from a

:20:00. > :20:04.constituent in Coventry who asked me to bring it to the Secretary of

:20:05. > :20:10.State's attention and I'm late to do so. She writes as fied "I'm an nice

:20:11. > :20:20.with 26 years experience who is always worked full-time -- I'm an

:20:21. > :20:25.nice. But I have gladly served and given 100% to do it. Unfortunately,

:20:26. > :20:29.my 18-year-old daughter has recently become and were mentally and

:20:30. > :20:35.attempted suicide twice in a three-week period. I'm sad to say,

:20:36. > :20:43.this comes in nursery 26 years experience. The care she has been

:20:44. > :20:49.given is appalling. I expect that as a family who gave so much to society

:20:50. > :20:58.and still do, when it is our time in need we can expect a service that

:20:59. > :21:06.meets our needs. " Could you arrange... She continues that she

:21:07. > :21:11.has been waiting six months without any mental health assessment or

:21:12. > :21:16.support from the NHS, six months for a daughter of 18 years of age. Will

:21:17. > :21:21.he agreed to meet her so it's just not more hollow words? I am more

:21:22. > :21:24.than happy to meet her, but I would rather, what I would like to do

:21:25. > :21:30.ahead of that is to look at the particular issue as to why she has

:21:31. > :21:31.to wait so long. He puts it very eloquently, and she puts eloquently,

:21:32. > :21:57.we Of thank you. The House of, is

:21:58. > :22:02.library calculated the real terms increase in health related spending

:22:03. > :22:09.between 2010 and 2016 in England was 9.4%. But it was zero in Wales. Not

:22:10. > :22:13.only are A waiting times longer in Wales than in England but routine

:22:14. > :22:18.procedures can take two and a half times longer in Wales. I regularly

:22:19. > :22:23.see constituents in tears waiting well in excess of the year for hip

:22:24. > :22:28.operations. Would the secretary of state agreed that the party opposite

:22:29. > :22:34.must start acknowledging the challenges that the NHS Wales and

:22:35. > :22:38.responsibility for them? I think his constituents in Wales would be

:22:39. > :22:42.appalled by the reaction we have just had then. They stand on their

:22:43. > :22:49.high horse complaining about NHS care in England but when he brings

:22:50. > :22:55.up poor NHS care in Wales they make noises as if they don't want to hear

:22:56. > :22:59.it. If they care about NHS patients, they should care about them through

:23:00. > :23:03.the whole of the United Kingdom. NHS care in Wales is worse and they need

:23:04. > :23:12.to do something about it. Avec Cooper. I have been contacted by

:23:13. > :23:18.several constituents who spent 14 hours in A waiting for a bed. We

:23:19. > :23:23.have been hampered by social care cuts, by a shortage of A doctors.

:23:24. > :23:27.Some think the health department was warned would become a growing

:23:28. > :23:33.problem over five years ago. And the Health Select Committee warned about

:23:34. > :23:37.again last year. When will this shortage of A doctors be ended by

:23:38. > :23:43.the government, by the summer? By next year, the following year? He

:23:44. > :23:55.has had seven years. When will he deal with the shortage of A

:23:56. > :24:02.doctors? The number of A doctors have gone up since 2010 by 1002 and

:24:03. > :24:10.that, over 50% increase. The number of A consultants has gone up by

:24:11. > :24:14.20%. We have recruited 2000 more paramedics and as a result of those

:24:15. > :24:19.changes, are a emergency departments are seeing, within the four hour

:24:20. > :24:25.target, 2500 people more every single day, compared to 2010. It is

:24:26. > :24:30.not to minimise the pressures in the NHS over winter and that doesn't say

:24:31. > :24:35.there isn't more that needs to be done, which is why I outlined a

:24:36. > :24:41.number of things in my statement. The Secretary of State came to see

:24:42. > :24:45.the plans of the emergency room at Worthing hospital. I hope next time

:24:46. > :24:50.he comes he can look at the Community Hospital and the mental

:24:51. > :24:54.health services as well. Can I put to him on the child mental health

:24:55. > :24:59.care, we have 700,000 teenagers going through each year, each stage

:25:00. > :25:02.and a quarter of them will have bumps and need resilience. The

:25:03. > :25:06.parents and teachers need help, can he make sure the Green paper covers

:25:07. > :25:10.advice to parents and teachers so they know what's in the normal range

:25:11. > :25:17.of behaviours and what is outside them? Can I commend the right

:25:18. > :25:21.honourable gentleman for his one-man campaign against the misinformation

:25:22. > :25:25.put out by 38 degrees, which I continue to admire on many

:25:26. > :25:30.occasions. Also thank the staff at Worthing hospital for their

:25:31. > :25:35.fantastic work over the busy period. He puts his finger on a very

:25:36. > :25:40.important issue, which is, as we seek to raise the profile of mental

:25:41. > :25:46.health treatment for children and young people, what we mustn't do is

:25:47. > :25:53.medicalise every single moments of stress, worries before exams, those

:25:54. > :25:56.are not a cause to talk to an NHS psychiatrist. A lot of our work on

:25:57. > :26:04.the green paper will be how we can promote self health, support schools

:26:05. > :26:08.to help people but when they do need NHL 's help, they get it quickly. It

:26:09. > :26:13.is great to see the Secretary of State here in the chamber after

:26:14. > :26:19.enjoying his Christmas recess. While he was away, stuff on the NHS front

:26:20. > :26:25.line had to work double shifts. The London Ambulance Service computer

:26:26. > :26:30.system crashed. And we also found the Red Cross needed to be drafted

:26:31. > :26:33.into our hospitals. Can the Secretary of State tell us today,

:26:34. > :26:41.which hospitals he personally visited during the Christmas recess?

:26:42. > :26:44.Let me just say, I was in touch with what was happening in the NHS every

:26:45. > :26:50.day throughout the Christmas recess. But as someone who has worked in a

:26:51. > :26:55.hospital herself, she might perhaps think about whether it is

:26:56. > :26:57.particularly helpful for NHS hospitals to have visits by

:26:58. > :27:04.high-profile politicians right at their busiest period. But I have

:27:05. > :27:08.been very closely in touch. She talked about the problems at London

:27:09. > :27:15.Ambulance Service, which was a problem, which staff had been

:27:16. > :27:19.trained to deal with. I just say to her, her own hospital, the staff

:27:20. > :27:23.worked extremely well. What they don't welcome is the attempts, I

:27:24. > :27:29.think she is making this afternoon, to try to politicise the the NHS

:27:30. > :27:32.faces. In connection with the changes to the four hour stand of

:27:33. > :27:37.the Secretary of State has heralded, what does he think can be done to

:27:38. > :27:43.incentivise and upscale GPs, who may wish to a closer interest in minor

:27:44. > :27:49.and moderate illnesses, including the use of nurse led minor injury

:27:50. > :27:55.units? These have a very important role and I think if we look at some

:27:56. > :27:59.of the most successful and best performing trusts in the country

:28:00. > :28:03.like Luton and Dunstable for example, what they do is they have a

:28:04. > :28:09.very good streaming process at the front door with good alternatives

:28:10. > :28:16.for people who are not appropriate to go into an A department. Nurse

:28:17. > :28:20.led units can be important, GP led units can make a difference as well.

:28:21. > :28:26.It won't be the same everywhere, for reasons of space and nothing else,

:28:27. > :28:32.but there is a solution everyone can adopt. We have seen in the last few

:28:33. > :28:39.weeks, pressures in the NHS, but what is surprising to me, given we

:28:40. > :28:45.are not in the midst of a desperate cold spell yaps, we're not in the

:28:46. > :28:47.throes of a flu epidemic, how can the secretary of state come here

:28:48. > :28:52.today and I think in place in league, suggest he has a grip on the

:28:53. > :28:56.services in the NHS. I'd like to know why he wasn't on top of those

:28:57. > :28:59.trusts he knew for a week and potentially under threat if any

:29:00. > :29:03.pressure occurred. What will he do when we hit the cold snap and people

:29:04. > :29:09.are suffering from flu in large numbers? I reject that suggestion

:29:10. > :29:15.and if you want to know what we have been doing over the course of the

:29:16. > :29:20.year, as I said in my statement, we have 1600 more doctors than a year

:29:21. > :29:27.ago. Over 3000 more nurses. We have the biggest flu vaccination in our

:29:28. > :29:31.history, we have additional GP sessions booked over the festive

:29:32. > :29:37.period. There was a huge amount of work being done and the particular

:29:38. > :29:40.focus on distressed areas. Many of those distressed areas did cope

:29:41. > :29:46.extremely well, not all of them, which is why there is more work to

:29:47. > :29:50.do. The health committee in the last parliament luck that children's

:29:51. > :29:54.mental health services and one of the main concerns was distances

:29:55. > :30:00.travelled by patients, sometimes halfway across the country to get

:30:01. > :30:04.treatment. Can you expand on his plans, and is it a new form of

:30:05. > :30:13.gatekeeper and can he keep drunks out of A? Rather than the phrase

:30:14. > :30:16.gatekeeper, I would use the word streaming and make sure we have

:30:17. > :30:25.alternative offers for people who don't need to be in A departments.

:30:26. > :30:30.That is not safe for A departments to have people there for six or

:30:31. > :30:34.eight hours, it is distracting for staff and harder for them to do with

:30:35. > :30:39.people who have more immediate needs. In terms of the distances

:30:40. > :30:44.travelling, it is an acceptable for people to go 400 miles for a mental

:30:45. > :30:48.health bed. What is the solution? We are commissioning more beds, but the

:30:49. > :30:52.solution is to intervene earlier, so people don't get to the stage in

:30:53. > :30:56.treatment where they need inpatient care. We know if we intervene

:30:57. > :31:03.earlier, in many cases, we can head off that need and help people get

:31:04. > :31:06.better quickly. This afternoon, the patients in Nottingham are waiting

:31:07. > :31:12.for more than four hours. In the last month, figures are available,

:31:13. > :31:16.3500 people who had to wait for more than four hours in the emergency

:31:17. > :31:24.department. We cannot go on like this. Will he agree to fast-track

:31:25. > :31:27.the capital we need to increase capacity at Nottingham's emergency

:31:28. > :31:32.department? I will happily take a look at that and when it comes to

:31:33. > :31:37.the allocation of capital, we do prioritise any project that will

:31:38. > :31:42.help improve the situation in any department and reduce stresses. The

:31:43. > :31:46.Secretary of State has acknowledged there is a shortage of acute mental

:31:47. > :31:51.health beds and there's arises from a decision by many health trusts to

:31:52. > :31:56.close beds and favour putting resources into services in the

:31:57. > :32:00.community. One effect of this, people approaching and mental health

:32:01. > :32:06.crisis find it harder to know where to turn for help. Will he explain

:32:07. > :32:10.more about the crisis provision in which we are now investing this

:32:11. > :32:14.extra ?50 million, and in particular is there a common way of knowing how

:32:15. > :32:22.one can easily access these vital services? I am happy to supply more

:32:23. > :32:25.details. The ?50 million is for places of safety that is

:32:26. > :32:30.specifically focused on support for the police service, so we can make

:32:31. > :32:35.sure we live up to what will be our legal commitment from this year, not

:32:36. > :32:39.to send young people into police cells, when actually what they need

:32:40. > :32:43.is a mental health support. But more broadly, he is right, there is a

:32:44. > :32:46.policy change, which I think most people think is the right thing,

:32:47. > :32:52.which is to treat more people in the community where we possibly can.

:32:53. > :32:57.What I think is not working is the system which divides people up into

:32:58. > :33:04.40 years. Sometimes we say to people, we cannot treat you because

:33:05. > :33:09.we are in TF three and you are not sick enough. That is not acceptable

:33:10. > :33:15.and that is why we are doing this Green paper and we want to look at a

:33:16. > :33:19.way forward. Does the Secretary of State accept it is not solely down

:33:20. > :33:24.just to an ageing society in the crisis and deepening crisis of the

:33:25. > :33:27.NHS and the failure to provide sufficient funding is the key to

:33:28. > :33:36.this crisis and therefore it is possible to address and what will he

:33:37. > :33:39.do about it? If she is worried about funding, she might explain why

:33:40. > :33:43.funding for the NHS in England went up by double the rate than funding

:33:44. > :33:50.in Scotland over the last Parliament. But she is right... I

:33:51. > :34:02.will get heard the figures on Northern Ireland. I say that by way

:34:03. > :34:06.of reference. But let me agree with her, as well as apologising for my

:34:07. > :34:12.earlier error, let me agree with her, it isn't just about the ageing

:34:13. > :34:16.society. It is also about changing consumer expectations, people want

:34:17. > :34:22.access to health care 20 47 today in a way that wasn't the case ten or 20

:34:23. > :34:29.years ago and that is a cause of a lot of the additional pressure. I

:34:30. > :34:32.welcome this announcement on mental health and it is clear the

:34:33. > :34:37.government is serious about improving mental health treatment

:34:38. > :34:41.and prevention. The challenge is to translate ambitions into action. Can

:34:42. > :34:45.my right honourable friend assure me he will put in place mechanisms to

:34:46. > :34:49.make sure these proposals and those in the five-year forward view for

:34:50. > :34:53.mental health become reality? And specifically, would he look that one

:34:54. > :34:59.step is to make sure that no STD is signed off without clear plans of

:35:00. > :35:03.funding for improving mental health care. -- STP. It is happening and

:35:04. > :35:14.one of the key metrics by which we will be junked judging STPs. She is

:35:15. > :35:17.right ambitions need to be turned into action. But because of the

:35:18. > :35:21.Commons that she and many other members have made over the last few

:35:22. > :35:27.years, she will find there is much more understanding in the NHS that

:35:28. > :35:29.this is a big priority. We need to stop resources constantly being

:35:30. > :35:39.sucked into the acute sector, as has happened over many years. The

:35:40. > :35:42.Secretary of State announced the government were pressing ahead with

:35:43. > :35:45.significant cuts to community pharmacy budget in the Department of

:35:46. > :35:49.Health, in the face of huge opposition from members of both

:35:50. > :35:52.sides of hours, members of the public and health care

:35:53. > :35:56.professionals. Given evidence one in five people, who would normally see

:35:57. > :36:01.a pharmacist for medical advice, say they will make a GP appointment if

:36:02. > :36:06.the local pharmacist is closed and in areas of high deprivation I moan,

:36:07. > :36:10.it is four in five. Many of these people will turn about the local

:36:11. > :36:13.hospital in desperation. Isn't the government in danger of making an

:36:14. > :36:20.appalling crisis in the NHS even worse? We are having to ask the

:36:21. > :36:24.pharmacy sector to make efficiency savings, just as we are asking all

:36:25. > :36:30.part of the NHS make efficiency savings. 40% of pharmacies are

:36:31. > :36:37.clustered in groups of three or more. Does make sense for the to

:36:38. > :36:41.continue to subsidise pharmacies that are very close to river

:36:42. > :36:44.pharmacies, so this is to ensure that where there is only one local

:36:45. > :36:54.pharmacy, that pharmacies protected. Does my right honourable friend

:36:55. > :37:00.acknowledge the damaging effect that loneliness can have on mental

:37:01. > :37:07.health, and will he join me in welcoming the Jo Cox loneliness

:37:08. > :37:11.commission later this month? I am happy to do that and to acknowledge

:37:12. > :37:17.the importance of this issue, when it comes to older people per latest

:37:18. > :37:21.figures I have seen is that 5 million older people say that their

:37:22. > :37:24.main form of company if the television. That is not acceptable

:37:25. > :37:28.and we all have the responsibility to do better in that the spec. Not

:37:29. > :37:34.just from moral point of view but from a practical point of view, this

:37:35. > :37:37.leads to people more likely to need hospital treatment which is

:37:38. > :37:44.expensive and challenging for the NHS. Thank you Mr Speaker. The

:37:45. > :37:50.secretary of this date has talked a great deal about preventing people

:37:51. > :37:53.getting to A by intervening much earlier, yet surely he has to do

:37:54. > :37:59.recognise that the cuts that have been made to local authorities, in

:38:00. > :38:04.social care make it much more likely that people will not be picked up

:38:05. > :38:08.earlier in the progress of any illness and will go and have to

:38:09. > :38:13.resort to the health service in a much more difficult situation. Can't

:38:14. > :38:18.he now have a discussion with his colleagues on the front bench and

:38:19. > :38:23.tell them, particularly the Chancellor, that they have got this

:38:24. > :38:30.wrong, we have to do invest in preventative services, we funding

:38:31. > :38:35.authorities not cutting. It means investing in proper social care, not

:38:36. > :38:40.the ?5 billion of cuts that we have seen in social persons 2020,

:38:41. > :38:47.otherwise the pressure on our NHS will discontinue. Actually, I agree

:38:48. > :38:51.with her broad points about the importance of the social care system

:38:52. > :38:56.and its interconnectedness with the NHS and we faced in 2010 as you well

:38:57. > :39:01.knows, because her party's manifesting the fact that this is

:39:02. > :39:04.well, we faced a very challenging economic situation in which both

:39:05. > :39:10.parties recognised the need for cuts to be made in public spending, but

:39:11. > :39:13.what teams in 2015 at least in our party 's manifesto was the

:39:14. > :39:18.recognition that actually when it came to social care we need to make

:39:19. > :39:25.sure we increased funding into the social care. And all local

:39:26. > :39:28.authorities are now able to increase funding for social care in real

:39:29. > :39:36.terms and I hope we can start turning things around. Thank you

:39:37. > :39:39.very much, with the recent educational select committee report

:39:40. > :39:44.on children in care in mind I certainly welcome the Prime

:39:45. > :39:47.Minister's be focused on mental health and the Secretary of State's

:39:48. > :39:51.continued support of action to be taken, but what steps does he has in

:39:52. > :39:56.mind to deliver actual practical steps given that we found that local

:39:57. > :40:02.integration, effective relationships and the teaching of PSA cheeks all

:40:03. > :40:05.helped to produce good outcomes. I think he's absolutely right and

:40:06. > :40:11.obviously his role in the select committee will give him a particular

:40:12. > :40:15.insight into this. But, we don't want to rush to come to a solution

:40:16. > :40:21.on this which is why we will simply do a green paper before the end of

:40:22. > :40:25.the year because it is complex. As the other honourable members have

:40:26. > :40:29.alluded to the risk of metallising problems when we know that all young

:40:30. > :40:33.people at school have periods of stress and anxiety and worry that an

:40:34. > :40:38.diagnosable mental health conditions and we wouldn't want to make them as

:40:39. > :40:44.such. So, this is about thinking through a smart way to improve

:40:45. > :40:48.self-help and also to educate school so that they are able to spot when

:40:49. > :40:53.this is just a temporary period, in the run-up to exams or whatever, or

:40:54. > :40:57.whether it could be something a lot more serious like OCD or an eating

:40:58. > :41:02.disorder or something that needs more immediate help. That is

:41:03. > :41:06.something went to date we have started a big education programmes

:41:07. > :41:12.with schools ball and go further. Q. I would like to welcome the extra

:41:13. > :41:19.investment if it turns out to be extra investment in mental health. I

:41:20. > :41:21.wanted to push the Secretary of State and the question around

:41:22. > :41:30.educational psychology and how that is going to work in, I speak as a

:41:31. > :41:33.mother of a child with SEN issues who has relied on clinical and

:41:34. > :41:37.educational psychology in schools and the school where my children

:41:38. > :41:42.currently goes to is increasing the class sizes and 30 to 33 and

:41:43. > :41:48.reducing the teaching staff specifically those who engage in SEN

:41:49. > :41:51.children, because of changes to educational funding. I wondered the

:41:52. > :41:55.Secretary of State and tell me how he thinks that will affect the

:41:56. > :42:02.children's mental health in my children's school? I think she

:42:03. > :42:07.raises an important issue and I know that I have had constituents and I'm

:42:08. > :42:10.sure she has as well, where they found access to educational

:42:11. > :42:14.psychologists difficult and couldn't get a plan approved that they needed

:42:15. > :42:18.to. This is what we will be considering in the build-up to the

:42:19. > :42:23.green paper and I would encourage her to participate in the process.

:42:24. > :42:27.Thank you, will the Health Secretary please get the message out there

:42:28. > :42:33.loud and clear to health bosses up and down the country that we need

:42:34. > :42:38.more capacity in our A so that when people come forward to NHS

:42:39. > :42:44.England with the request for money for their appalling plan to

:42:45. > :42:47.downgrade my local A, all those Huddersfield Royal Infirmary replace

:42:48. > :42:53.it with a small unit with smaller bets, that that money would be

:42:54. > :43:02.better spent on front line a need care. I of course take seriously

:43:03. > :43:08.everything he says and I will say this, the NHS doesn't always get

:43:09. > :43:12.these things right. I led a campaign against an A closure in my own

:43:13. > :43:17.constituency when as a backbencher. And the party apps it was empower

:43:18. > :43:20.and they were about to take a wholly mistaken decision. Bass macro Dub

:43:21. > :43:30.party opposite was in power. So we will look carefully, and I do

:43:31. > :43:34.think that the broader point he makes is that we have to understand

:43:35. > :43:38.that the pasty matters. I would say that in the long run we are not

:43:39. > :43:44.going to solve this problem simply by the increasing capacity in a any.

:43:45. > :43:53.Because we need alternative forms of provision. Bass macro capacity in

:43:54. > :43:59.the A We need to find ways of... That is what we are exploring. I

:44:00. > :44:05.declare an interest as my husband is an A consultant. If the Secretary

:44:06. > :44:12.of State would speak to him he would tell him that the extra pressure on

:44:13. > :44:17.A, as we have had, because of the disappearance of preventative power

:44:18. > :44:21.of social care, and of other services. It's not individuals

:44:22. > :44:29.arriving at a any who should and it is other services with varying

:44:30. > :44:34.people to A when they shouldn't. -- referring people. Would the

:44:35. > :44:38.Secretary of State take responsibility for his government's

:44:39. > :44:46.decisions over eight years that have panned out to be false economies of

:44:47. > :44:51.cutting services back to the bone. With respect, I agree with the broad

:44:52. > :44:54.principle that preventative care is absolutely vital, I disagree with

:44:55. > :45:04.the suggestion that this has been cut to the bone. We had an increase

:45:05. > :45:11.of 5% more and peas Tuohy GPs last parliament. -- and increase of 5%

:45:12. > :45:19.more GPs. Both at the last election and the one before, the party

:45:20. > :45:26.promising the most resources for the NHS was on this side and not on her

:45:27. > :45:33.side. Everyone knows the Secretary of State has an impossible job which

:45:34. > :45:38.he does with humanity and energy, but the two tier system that we had

:45:39. > :45:42.depending on where you live, in the North Lincolnshire you can wait

:45:43. > :45:48.three weeks to see a doctor or two hours for an ambulance to come, on

:45:49. > :45:54.top of lack of investment. Two hours people of weighted lying in the

:45:55. > :46:03.street waiting for an ambulance. This is not acceptable. -- people

:46:04. > :46:08.have waited. I just wonder whether we don't need to start an honest

:46:09. > :46:14.discussion with the people about how we're going to devote more resources

:46:15. > :46:19.to help in this country, perhaps social in Shawlands models or

:46:20. > :46:26.leaving, God forbid, charging people who don't turn up to appointment. --

:46:27. > :46:33.social in Shawlands models. I don't agree with moving to a social in

:46:34. > :46:37.Shawlands model, but the broader issue is something that I do have

:46:38. > :46:42.some sympathy with. We have to recognise that if we're going to

:46:43. > :46:46.have a million more over 65 is, over the decades ahead we will have to

:46:47. > :46:50.find a way to continue to invest more in our health and social care

:46:51. > :46:54.systems. This year we are doing that women extra 3.8 billion, over the

:46:55. > :47:01.decades ahead governments will continue to need to do. He had led

:47:02. > :47:05.rightly a specific problem, which I don't have the solution to. But I

:47:06. > :47:09.understand the problem that in ball areas the book away too long for

:47:10. > :47:19.ambulances. This system of targets that we have in sensor size

:47:20. > :47:27.Ambulance Services... That is something that I will look at. The

:47:28. > :47:33.Secretary of State houses he has a strategy, so I issue me must be on

:47:34. > :47:40.top of these facts. Can I ask him, as the latest count this week how

:47:41. > :47:43.many beds where being locked in hospitals by people that could be

:47:44. > :47:53.discharged but there went the facilities in the community? More

:47:54. > :47:58.than a third of A attendances at peak times are caused by jewel in

:47:59. > :48:02.this, which is unacceptable and irresponsible, what more can we do

:48:03. > :48:10.the hugely reduced that proportion by this time next year? -- caused by

:48:11. > :48:17.the slump in this. I think the issue he raises is one about public

:48:18. > :48:20.responsibility, these are our National Health Service is and we

:48:21. > :48:26.need to treat them in a responsible way and it is selfish to behave in

:48:27. > :48:29.an irresponsible way and create pressure on an A which means that

:48:30. > :48:35.somebody else who needs the help might not be able to get it. Is the

:48:36. > :48:40.Secretary of State accusing the Red Cross of weapon I think the National

:48:41. > :48:44.Health Service, and secondly can I say when the NHS is making courts

:48:45. > :48:51.the services that supper time and time again are the so-called

:48:52. > :49:01.Cinderella services ie mental health services. The only way to prevent

:49:02. > :49:06.that is to ring fence that funding. Finally, the other thing that

:49:07. > :49:11.happens is when you cut local authority services to the bone is

:49:12. > :49:18.that they can only provide strategy services. What is stopping the

:49:19. > :49:23.Secretary of State commissioning and all parties group to look at the

:49:24. > :49:27.sustainable long-term funding model for social care? The Prime Minister

:49:28. > :49:31.has said that we need to find a long-term solution to the funding of

:49:32. > :49:37.social care and that is work that is ongoing and we recognise the urgency

:49:38. > :49:41.of the situation. But, I would simply say, the evidence about

:49:42. > :49:45.whether or not services for mental health are reaching the front line

:49:46. > :49:48.is whether actually more money is being spent on mental health

:49:49. > :49:57.provision then in previous years and it is about ability of pounds more

:49:58. > :50:02.being spent 20 years ago. Thank you. The AA in me at Worcester and

:50:03. > :50:08.Alexandra Hospital in Redditch have been under huge pressure. -- be a

:50:09. > :50:13.any macro. Can he reassure patients that all is being done to help

:50:14. > :50:17.alleviate the situation now, and also what we really need at odd

:50:18. > :50:26.trust is a capital bid of 29 million to be agreed to increase capacity to

:50:27. > :50:32.alleviate this problem. I totally recognise that and I want to thank

:50:33. > :50:35.her for her interest on behalf of her own constituents in what has

:50:36. > :50:40.been happening. Subject to staffing there will be a new ward opening at

:50:41. > :50:45.the trust next week. We have a new Chief Executive arriving at the

:50:46. > :50:50.trust in the spring. We recognised the need for capital spending to

:50:51. > :50:58.increase capacity of both the Alex and the Royal and we will look

:50:59. > :51:02.sympathetically at that. He couldn't resist his customary political

:51:03. > :51:08.attack on the Wells NHS, I had cause to visit my local hospital to go to

:51:09. > :51:14.a new macro with a family member. And there was a speedy and expect

:51:15. > :51:20.service. -- go to my Amy macro. Can I invite him to congratulate the

:51:21. > :51:27.Welsh Labour government and not having to call in the Red Cross and

:51:28. > :51:31.to congratulate them on their long standing emphasis on mental health

:51:32. > :51:36.meaning we spend more per capita in Wales than in England or indeed any

:51:37. > :51:38.part of the UK notwithstanding the ?2 billion cut he has made to the

:51:39. > :51:49.Welsh budget in the last six years? What he wasn't prepared to say

:51:50. > :51:50.people wait twice as long very hip replacement in Wales, more than

:51:51. > :51:53.double the proportion of the double the proportion of the

:51:54. > :51:58.population are on a waiting list for NHS care, that's one in seven people

:51:59. > :52:03.in Wales compared to one in one in 15 in England and you are 40 times

:52:04. > :52:05.more likely to be waiting for a diagnostic test result waiting too

:52:06. > :52:12.long for a test result in Wales compared to England. Thank you, Mr

:52:13. > :52:18.Speaker. The Secretary of State will be aware that our hospitals have

:52:19. > :52:20.been under pressure due to be demographics and ageing population.

:52:21. > :52:26.Will he agree that it's encouraging Will he agree that it's encouraging

:52:27. > :52:30.to hear work being done on Friday to make sure doctors can be available

:52:31. > :52:33.to those who need them and that people are sent away to specialists

:52:34. > :52:39.who can help them like a physiotherapist rather than taking

:52:40. > :52:42.up vital GP appointments? Indeed. I congratulate all the NHS and social

:52:43. > :52:47.care staff in Derby doing a fantastic job. Also on the

:52:48. > :52:54.pioneering work we have done, which I know has made a huge difference to

:52:55. > :52:56.his constituents. Over the New Year, East Midlands Ambulance Service saw

:52:57. > :52:59.life-threatening calls up 42% on life-threatening calls up 42% on

:53:00. > :53:02.last year. Beauty of Nottingham last year. Beauty of Nottingham

:53:03. > :53:07.University Hospital trust described the emergency department as pushed

:53:08. > :53:11.to the limit. The honourable member has already said almost double the

:53:12. > :53:14.normal number of hospital admissions. Clearly these were

:53:15. > :53:20.necessary attendances but surely many of them could have been

:53:21. > :53:21.prevented. He has already acknowledged the connection between

:53:22. > :53:26.inadequate social care and this is inadequate social care and this is

:53:27. > :53:33.entirely foreseeable prices. I ask again, will he commit his Government

:53:34. > :53:37.to properly fund it? I just find these questions about funding

:53:38. > :53:43.curious coming from a party that had we followed their plans would be

:53:44. > :53:47.spending ?1.3 billion less on the NHS this year compared to what the

:53:48. > :53:53.NHS is actually getting. I just say to them the reason that we are able

:53:54. > :54:02.to spend that extra money on the NHS is because we know how to run the

:54:03. > :54:06.economy. It's all too often been the case that mental health patients

:54:07. > :54:10.have wondered if this issue actually has another leadership. I'm pleased

:54:11. > :54:14.to see the Prime Minister made one of her earlier speeches on this

:54:15. > :54:18.particular issue. While no one in this house would oppose an extra 1.4

:54:19. > :54:22.billion being invested, this Parliament echoes the words of the

:54:23. > :54:27.chief executive, the proof will be chief executive, the proof will be

:54:28. > :54:31.in the investment -- the impact this investment has an day-to-day

:54:32. > :54:35.experiences. While the minister meet with me to discuss the plans for a

:54:36. > :54:41.new psychiatric and demented unit in Bath in order to service the whole

:54:42. > :54:44.of the south-west? I am happy on his behalf to ask the Minister to meet

:54:45. > :54:51.him to discuss that psychiatric unit. -- dementia. The proof of the

:54:52. > :54:56.pudding is in the eating. This is the first time I can remember that a

:54:57. > :55:01.Prime Minister has made her first major speech on the NHS about mental

:55:02. > :55:04.health and talked about the importance of sorting out mental

:55:05. > :55:07.health on the steps of Downing Street as she arrived. That is a

:55:08. > :55:15.sign of the commitment coming right from the job. The fabulous team at

:55:16. > :55:20.Imperial St Mary 's in west London are featuring any TV programme this

:55:21. > :55:24.week. The cheese service for emergency care is reported as

:55:25. > :55:27.saying, we have just had our worst ten days on record, there is nowhere

:55:28. > :55:32.in the hospital to move anybody. What happened in the two years, the

:55:33. > :55:36.whole system country wind has grown to a halt. Part of that is because

:55:37. > :55:40.there is more than the goblet of a ward of patients at any time you

:55:41. > :55:44.cannot move out of the hospital because there is nowhere for them to

:55:45. > :55:47.go. Does the Secretary of State except his Government has gone too

:55:48. > :55:52.far in the destruction of local Government finance, including social

:55:53. > :55:55.care, and does he accept that despite all the rhetoric, next year

:55:56. > :56:04.and local Government finance will go down not up? First of all, I would

:56:05. > :56:05.like to thank the staff at Imperial alongside other NHS staff and

:56:06. > :56:07.utterly fantastic job over a utterly fantastic job over a

:56:08. > :56:12.difficult period. 50% of councils difficult period. 50% of councils

:56:13. > :56:17.have got no delayed discharges of care. Whilst this is a problem in

:56:18. > :56:20.many hospitals, there are many areas managing to deal with this problem.

:56:21. > :56:23.That's why I would suggest the local authorities that serve her

:56:24. > :56:31.constituencies should look at other parts of that are dealing with this

:56:32. > :56:39.problem. I welcome the provision of mental health facilities services

:56:40. > :56:44.for schools, but will it use either the type of first aid he is

:56:45. > :56:46.proposing for this is available to MPs and their staff? Given the

:56:47. > :56:55.number of people with mental health problems that we deal with. Is an

:56:56. > :57:03.absolutely excellent suggestion. I'm very happy to take it up. The

:57:04. > :57:06.problems we've been hearing in A E throughout the afternoon are

:57:07. > :57:12.symptomatic of problems elsewhere in the system. If you take Aintree

:57:13. > :57:17.Hospital, where the staff are doing a fantastic job in very difficult

:57:18. > :57:22.circumstances, a patients as of today are medically fit for

:57:23. > :57:27.discharge. Social services are simply unable to support them to go

:57:28. > :57:35.home or to go into care elsewhere. He needs to accept the cuts of ?4.6

:57:36. > :57:40.billion to social services was a mistake. He needs to accept the

:57:41. > :57:41.better care fund is simply not delivering, it is money

:57:42. > :57:45.recycled from elsewhere in the recycled from elsewhere in the

:57:46. > :57:49.system and if you look at the figures in Sefton, Sefton were

:57:50. > :57:53.promised 9 million, they have had less than 1 million. If he is

:57:54. > :57:56.serious about sorting out the problems in social care over the

:57:57. > :58:01.long term, he needs to get the funding right and he needs to

:58:02. > :58:05.reinvest all of those cuts that have been made. I do except there needs

:58:06. > :58:10.to be more funding going into social care, that's why we're putting an

:58:11. > :58:16.extra ?3.5 billion into social care around by the end of Parliament.

:58:17. > :58:21.What I would say to him is that even despite the very real pleasures in

:58:22. > :58:24.social care, there are many local authority areas, many hospitals that

:58:25. > :58:29.have no delayed discharges of care at all. Half of all the delayed

:58:30. > :58:32.discharges are just 20 local authorities. As we wait for that

:58:33. > :58:35.funding to come on stream, it's not all coming on stream at the start of

:58:36. > :58:42.Parliament, there's lots that can be done. Can I thank the Secretary of

:58:43. > :58:47.State for paying tribute to front line staff, I declare an interest to

:58:48. > :58:51.someone who worked over the NHS over the Christmas period and saw

:58:52. > :58:54.first-hand the pressures front line staff are facing. These winter

:58:55. > :58:59.pressures are replaced every year, certainly in my 20 expenses of

:59:00. > :59:03.working as a nurse. -- 20 years. Would he also paid tribute to mental

:59:04. > :59:09.health care nurses in Sussex and Sussex Police? Who by their joint

:59:10. > :59:13.working have reduced the amount of patients who have been placed in a

:59:14. > :59:22.prison cell, as the place of safety by 50% and Digne County Beachy head,

:59:23. > :59:27.that is a huge achievement. First of all, I welcome your contribution to

:59:28. > :59:32.this House as a practising night. I am more than happy to pay tribute to

:59:33. > :59:36.our brilliant mental health and those who I think have one of the

:59:37. > :59:43.most stressful jobs you can have. Particularly those in Sussex with

:59:44. > :59:48.particular tragic suicide hotspots. With the cold weather coming, could

:59:49. > :59:52.I return to the point of the flu epidemic risk and see that a

:59:53. > :59:57.desperate doctor wrote to me last night to say, sooner or later there

:59:58. > :00:01.will be an epidemic and, lately tell you, we cannot cope. Another shift,

:00:02. > :00:09.and other full hospital, and other gridlocked ana, more desperate and

:00:10. > :00:13.desperate patients. Another 14 or 13 hour shift with 110 minute break.

:00:14. > :00:18.Some patients and relatives get angry, some despair, most watchers

:00:19. > :00:20.and realise we can't physically do anything more. Please help me as the

:00:21. > :00:28.MPT represent her and please help us MPT represent her and please help us

:00:29. > :00:33.to have more staff. -- MPs. That Doctor speaks for many doctors who

:00:34. > :00:35.are working incredibly hard, particularly in our emergency

:00:36. > :00:38.department. I would say to that department. I would say to that

:00:39. > :00:42.doctor that we recognise the need for more doctors, we are recruiting

:00:43. > :00:46.more doctors, not just across the NHS but in emergency departments in

:00:47. > :00:51.particular. We also recognise that we need to find a different way of

:00:52. > :00:54.dealing with some of the patients who come to the hospital front door

:00:55. > :01:03.so we can alleviate that pressure and that's what we are looking at. I

:01:04. > :01:07.my constituency, an award winning my constituency, an award winning

:01:08. > :01:11.charity which improves the well-being of those suffering from

:01:12. > :01:13.mental health conditions. I welcome the Prime Minister's and enter this

:01:14. > :01:17.morning raising awareness of that ongoing stigma with regards to

:01:18. > :01:20.mental health. As well of course is the ?1 billion investment and the

:01:21. > :01:26.commitment to improving services. Would the minister be prepared to

:01:27. > :01:28.investigate such schemes as the one I have mentioned to ensure the

:01:29. > :01:34.treatment of those suffering from mental health is not simply limited

:01:35. > :01:37.to the provision of medication? I am prepared to do that. I think we do

:01:38. > :01:44.need to be very open-minded about the fact that mental health in some

:01:45. > :01:47.ways is a relatively new field, research as to what works best is

:01:48. > :01:51.continuing to uncover many new things. Much of that research is

:01:52. > :01:54.happening in this country. There has been a big move away from thinking

:01:55. > :01:59.that medication is with the best way forward. We have seen a huge

:02:00. > :02:05.expansion in therapies over the last two years in this country and that

:02:06. > :02:08.trend will continue. Thank you. Despite the best efforts of

:02:09. > :02:13.dedicated NHS staff, patients attending one of my local A E were

:02:14. > :02:18.told they would have to wait 11 hours just to be seen. People were

:02:19. > :02:22.in hospital trolleys for almost 20 hours routinely. Mental health

:02:23. > :02:26.patients were sent to Colchester because that was the nearest

:02:27. > :02:30.inpatient bed available for a 17-year-old and somebody I know

:02:31. > :02:33.waited six hours for a 999 ambulance, despite calling nine NN

:02:34. > :02:38.three times. We can do better than this, Secretary of State. To that

:02:39. > :02:45.end, I implore you, plead with you, to intervene and suspend the

:02:46. > :02:51.needless downgrade of Dewsbury and Huddersfield hospital, the downgrade

:02:52. > :02:56.of which will cost lives. None of the examples of poor care that she

:02:57. > :02:59.talks about remotely acceptable. Let me say to her that on my watch and I

:03:00. > :03:02.this Government we will see no return to the bad old days where

:03:03. > :03:09.people were routinely waiting far too long. We are recognising the

:03:10. > :03:12.problems we've just had and we are absolutely determined to make sure

:03:13. > :03:16.we suck them out. With respect to her local hospital reconfiguration,

:03:17. > :03:21.if it ends up on my desk because preferred that by the local health

:03:22. > :03:25.scrutiny committee and I then referred to the Independent

:03:26. > :03:31.reconfiguration panel, I will then look at the matter very carefully.

:03:32. > :03:36.-- sort it out. Mr Speaker, I would like to welcome the Secretary of

:03:37. > :03:42.State statement today and the focus on mental health. In particular, the

:03:43. > :03:46.mention of the suicide prevention strategy and the 1 billion funding

:03:47. > :03:48.commitment to improving services. Mental health is something that

:03:49. > :03:53.often doesn't just affect the patient but the families and those

:03:54. > :03:58.closest and dearest to them who care for them. Does he agree that raising

:03:59. > :04:04.awareness and tackling the ongoing stigma of mental health is a vital

:04:05. > :04:09.part of our work on mental health? Yes. She is absolutely right to

:04:10. > :04:12.mention that. I would say this is an area we can approach with some

:04:13. > :04:17.optimism as to the potential for change. If she looks at the progress

:04:18. > :04:20.we've made in the last four years on dementia, there is a day that goes

:04:21. > :04:24.past without something being in the newspapers about dementia and the

:04:25. > :04:28.understanding of dementia has changed dramatically. I think we can

:04:29. > :04:32.change attitudes and we absolutely need to do that. The only way you

:04:33. > :04:35.can get help to people any mental health crisis is if they talk about

:04:36. > :04:43.to change. I entirely agree with the to change. I entirely agree with the

:04:44. > :04:47.comments being made about the pressures on GP services, the

:04:48. > :04:51.pressures on preventative health and social care, but I want to ask about

:04:52. > :04:56.mental health services for students. In the first few weeks of time this

:04:57. > :05:01.year at Bristol University, there were three suspected suicides and I

:05:02. > :05:04.know from speaking to a doctor who runs the student health services bet

:05:05. > :05:08.presented with the mental health presented with the mental health

:05:09. > :05:12.issues has grown a lot over recent years. What can be Secretary of

:05:13. > :05:15.State tell us to reassure us that students leaving home for the first

:05:16. > :05:21.time and going to university that there are going to be in safe hands?

:05:22. > :05:25.I had a very interesting afternoon visiting the suicide prevention unit

:05:26. > :05:29.at Bristol Royal Infirmary and had a very good discussion about what they

:05:30. > :05:36.do. They do some pioneering things there. I learned a great deal from

:05:37. > :05:42.it. We have a particular concern about the growth in mental

:05:43. > :05:46.ill-health amongst women aged 18 to 24, it has shown is that the good

:05:47. > :05:50.growth. We are very concerned about today, the Prime Minister announced,

:05:51. > :05:53.but we have updated the suicide prevention strategy to make sure

:05:54. > :06:01.that all part of the country can learn from best practice, including

:06:02. > :06:08.places like best. Garryowen thank you Mr Speaker. I welcome to date's

:06:09. > :06:14.an expert on mental health. The key challenge often is to identify those

:06:15. > :06:16.who need help and support. Will the Secretary of State agreed to meet

:06:17. > :06:20.with the Department for Work and Pensions to look at ways that we can

:06:21. > :06:23.help signpost those identified through the independent payment is

:06:24. > :06:24.processed to signpost them to the additional support of help

:06:25. > :06:31.available? Can I reassure my honourable friend

:06:32. > :06:38.that those meetings are already happening? We have a paper in. We

:06:39. > :06:41.are trying to speed up access to mental health services for people on

:06:42. > :06:47.benefit to the canal to be more independent every address their

:06:48. > :06:51.mental health issue more quickly. Thank you. I'd just like to pick up

:06:52. > :06:58.on a point that the Secretary of State made about the right sort of

:06:59. > :07:01.pension arriving at a and E. -- A An elderly constituent of mine, Pat,

:07:02. > :07:09.had pneumonia like symptoms but didn't want to get and a dumb act to

:07:10. > :07:12.A to put pressure on, said she rang up the helpline and was told

:07:13. > :07:17.there was 100 people in front of her. She went to A because she

:07:18. > :07:21.thought she was going to die and she waited 24 hours for a bed. This is

:07:22. > :07:25.unacceptable, as you know. With the Secretary of State agree that the

:07:26. > :07:32.that there is urgent and immediate demand for out of hours doctors. If

:07:33. > :07:37.so, what will you do about it? She is right. People like her

:07:38. > :07:40.constituent, we need to have better alternatives to A and sometimes

:07:41. > :07:45.they don't exist, but one of the things they need to do is to make

:07:46. > :07:51.sure that people call 111 who need to speak to a clinician can do so

:07:52. > :07:54.quickly. One of the things they are piloted very successfully in other

:07:55. > :07:57.parts of the country is better than supervision of people in care homes,

:07:58. > :08:03.who are sometimes the most vulnerable patients. This is one of

:08:04. > :08:06.the things you're looking at, but also direction of travel. We need to

:08:07. > :08:13.find better ways fall for her constituent and people like them.

:08:14. > :08:17.Thank you. In sparsely populated rural Lincolnshire, vital reforms to

:08:18. > :08:21.health and social care risk of being undermined by the performance of the

:08:22. > :08:26.Midlands Ambulance Service. We have a Police and Crime Commissioner who

:08:27. > :08:29.said his officers are routinely effectively acting as ambulance

:08:30. > :08:35.drivers. I narrowly understand the problems we face in rural

:08:36. > :08:37.Lincolnshire but can you agree with me that, as it is currently

:08:38. > :08:42.constituted, East Midlands Ambulance Service is not selling the rural of

:08:43. > :08:49.an area as well as its staff was due and as well as my constituents need

:08:50. > :08:54.to? -- wanted to. As discussed earlier, when the honourable

:08:55. > :08:58.gentleman from Gainsborough spoke, I think there are areas where the

:08:59. > :09:02.service that the Ambulance Service providers to rural areas is not as

:09:03. > :09:05.good as it could be because of reverse incentives around the way

:09:06. > :09:11.the target work. I have been nervous about changing the targets because I

:09:12. > :09:16.think then that can sometimes be taken as a signal to relax, when I'm

:09:17. > :09:19.absolutely determined that we should meet the current targets but I did

:09:20. > :09:22.make a commitment to you honourable gentleman of Gainsborough that I

:09:23. > :09:31.will look into this is and I will do so. Thank you. Alas yeah, in

:09:32. > :09:34.Sheffield, just 67% of category one red ambulance calls were answered

:09:35. > :09:39.within eight minutes. At each, I met a constituent whose husband died

:09:40. > :09:45.while he waited two hours for an ambulance. -- two hours and 40

:09:46. > :09:48.minutes. How can you stand on the dispatch box and say the

:09:49. > :09:56.underfunding of our NHS is not linked with these irresponsible

:09:57. > :10:01.response times? Of course, what happened in vegetation is totally

:10:02. > :10:08.unacceptable, but -- in that situation. It is a mistake to bring

:10:09. > :10:12.this back to finding, it is by pressures, models of care. In the

:10:13. > :10:18.case of the Ambulance Services, just to reassure her that the extra

:10:19. > :10:20.funding that has gone in, we have around 200 more ambulances, around

:10:21. > :10:26.200 more paramedics and the annual and services are doing every day at

:10:27. > :10:31.around 3400 blue light called more than it was doing six years ago.

:10:32. > :10:42.There has been a significant investment but more has to happen.

:10:43. > :10:46.-- calls. Thank you. The number of mental health patients in police

:10:47. > :10:50.cells is rightfully down by 80%. People have bravely come to my

:10:51. > :10:54.surgery, in my constituency, talking about issues where they have found

:10:55. > :10:59.themselves with their families, struggling with provisions for

:11:00. > :11:10.mental health in between 18-24 years old and I pay tribute to Mind and

:11:11. > :11:16.Southern health for the issues they have helped. One thing is the tier

:11:17. > :11:21.system of not being sick and off shore where they are going. Kenny

:11:22. > :11:25.Secretary of State please tell me he will focus on special dumb

:11:26. > :11:34.specialism in this area because it is about finding the people to help

:11:35. > :11:37.people in need. -- specialism. She is right on by the Council on

:11:38. > :11:41.everything they need to do is look carefully at where the tier system

:11:42. > :11:45.is not working as part of our work for the Green paper that the Prime

:11:46. > :11:48.Minister and this morning because it is not acceptable for people to be

:11:49. > :11:56.done and they are not second half to get the care that they urgently

:11:57. > :12:01.need. -- not sick enough. All the we have announced an intention to

:12:02. > :12:05.announce well fail if we don't get the recruitment and training of new

:12:06. > :12:09.staff correct. With the commitment we are making Jadeja invest more in

:12:10. > :12:22.mental health, there also has to come more strategic planning. --

:12:23. > :12:26.making to invest more. On a temporary basis, money is being

:12:27. > :12:29.given to distressed trusts but isn't there a more fundamental ticking

:12:30. > :12:35.time bomb, which is the sustainability and translation plans

:12:36. > :12:41.-- transformation plans, and can I draw him to something I said in

:12:42. > :12:47.December about the north east London plan, which envisions a deficit of

:12:48. > :12:53.?578 million by 2021 and which says that, on a normal business as usual

:12:54. > :12:59.case of normal type productions and savings, there will still be a ?240

:13:00. > :13:02.million gap. That means poorer services. There is no capital

:13:03. > :13:07.provision for the closure of the King George Hospital A and its

:13:08. > :13:12.repositioning at Queens Hospital. Can you would urgently because there

:13:13. > :13:18.is going to be a massive crisis in my area unless urgent steps are

:13:19. > :13:23.taken to get more resources? Well, I am happy to do that issue and, can I

:13:24. > :13:29.take this opportunity to pay tribute to the staff of both Queens and King

:13:30. > :13:35.George? Who have not only done very well over winter, but have also made

:13:36. > :13:39.progress, great progress in terms of joining that around from special

:13:40. > :13:44.measures. We are hopeful that it might come out of special measures

:13:45. > :13:53.now at some stage during this year, but that they decision for the QC.

:13:54. > :13:58.-- CQC. Kettering General Hospital which serves my constituency has a

:13:59. > :14:03.big problem with delayed discharge. Whatever the issue is about money,

:14:04. > :14:08.perhaps the problem with social care is the model. Would it not be a good

:14:09. > :14:11.idea, Secretary of State, if there was genuine commitment from the

:14:12. > :14:16.other side of the house to try and work together to find the social

:14:17. > :14:23.care system for the future? -- a social care system. I think he is a

:14:24. > :14:27.right to say that we need to have these discussions in a less

:14:28. > :14:33.politically charged away because we need to find a solution that will

:14:34. > :14:40.survive changes environment and will be fit for the long-term. What I

:14:41. > :14:43.would also say to him is that I think we missed a trick when they

:14:44. > :14:48.say this is primarily about finding, the cause we have huge variation in

:14:49. > :14:51.provision. There are many local authorities where there are no delay

:14:52. > :14:56.discharges of care, as discussed earlier. What doesn't happen enough

:14:57. > :15:00.in the NHS and social care system is people living from best practice in

:15:01. > :15:05.other parts of the country and that is what we need to change. The

:15:06. > :15:10.Secretary of State has spoken a lot and today about unnecessary

:15:11. > :15:14.admissions to A Can you tell on Deeside, as a result of chronic

:15:15. > :15:21.malnutrition, have travelled under the Conservative governments and

:15:22. > :15:25.whether that approach will change to tackling poverty in this country. --

:15:26. > :15:30.Teesside. What I would say to her is the way you deal with those terrible

:15:31. > :15:33.problems is by having a stronger economy that allows asked to support

:15:34. > :15:37.people through difficult period in their life and what we have is one

:15:38. > :15:41.of the strongest economies, and I think this year it'll be the

:15:42. > :15:45.strongest economy in the G7 which allows us to do things like invest

:15:46. > :15:51.in our health and social care system and it is this party that can

:15:52. > :15:58.deliver that. Thank you. I've spoken to before about the staggering rise

:15:59. > :16:01.of patients at A in Addenbrooke's in Cambridge and the Hospital can

:16:02. > :16:05.bring to me this morning that they see 300 people a day. High levels of

:16:06. > :16:09.the late answers of care. The impact of this was brought to me by a

:16:10. > :16:13.constituent who told me that on Thursday last week, the facilities

:16:14. > :16:18.are so overcrowded that an adjacent seminar room was pressed into use

:16:19. > :16:22.weblogs were taken and where she was treated behind a makeshift curtain

:16:23. > :16:26.reclining on a standard chair. All conditions to be treated in of all

:16:27. > :16:31.conditions of which to work. The Secretary of State may say it's not

:16:32. > :16:34.about funding, if it is not, wealthy country Cambridge, sit down with his

:16:35. > :16:39.Conservative colleagues on the county council and tell them where

:16:40. > :16:42.they are going wrong? First of all, I went to Addenbrooke's in the

:16:43. > :16:46.autumn and I saw first-hand just how hard the gap are working there.

:16:47. > :16:49.That's another trust that is on special measures that has made huge

:16:50. > :16:54.progress in trying to turn things around. I met a number any emergency

:16:55. > :16:57.department as well and I beg of you any emergency department as well and

:16:58. > :17:00.I couldn't do them for their very hard work. I've never said it's not

:17:01. > :17:05.about funding. What I say is that it's not just about funding. There

:17:06. > :17:08.is huge variation and what we see is part of the country where they

:17:09. > :17:11.avoid, in their and agency departments, precisely the type of

:17:12. > :17:19.overcrowding he spoke about Addenbrooke's. Hospitals that do so

:17:20. > :17:21.very successfully, like Luton and Dunstable, for example. We need

:17:22. > :17:29.hospitals to adopt the best practice. Thank you. Can I welcome

:17:30. > :17:35.the public vocation of the new suicide prevention strategy and that

:17:36. > :17:43.self harm is included in it. Thank you for the work on suicide

:17:44. > :17:47.prevention, which I chair. Can I as the Secretary of State to meet with

:17:48. > :17:54.Robert Colgate? Robert Colgate has set out a triage in mental health

:17:55. > :17:57.systems. That means people don't have too wait 6-9 months to see a

:17:58. > :18:01.consultant. With the support of front line staffing, they get an

:18:02. > :18:08.immediate triage assessment and assistance to help. Can I urgently

:18:09. > :18:12.asking to meet with Doctor Colgate? His work is being peer-reviewed by

:18:13. > :18:17.Manchester University, and have a look at how this can also... It is

:18:18. > :18:20.being rolled out across England, but Cialis can help us tackle the

:18:21. > :18:26.problems we have. I thank her for her work on the suicide prevention

:18:27. > :18:30.agency but I am more than happy to meet Doctor Colgate and the purpose

:18:31. > :18:34.of the refreshed suicide prevention strategy is to make sure that we

:18:35. > :18:38.adopt best practice throughout the country. There are some areas of the

:18:39. > :18:44.country doing a very, very good job in suicide prevention. Particularly

:18:45. > :18:47.in telling the public they can make a difference to this, too. I am more

:18:48. > :18:57.than happy to explore what more can be done. Thank you. The Secretary of

:18:58. > :19:01.State rightly pays tribute to NHS staff, but the reality is that many

:19:02. > :19:04.of our NHS workers are now at breaking point. They only continue

:19:05. > :19:08.to perform their work with care and compassion in the light of, rather

:19:09. > :19:15.than because of, any action taken by the Health Secretary. It is now time

:19:16. > :19:17.for the secretary of state to act. What can literally get to invest

:19:18. > :19:23.properly in our NHS staff and reverse the process of geese

:19:24. > :19:28.killing, demoralisation and downgrading of our NHS staff, which

:19:29. > :19:35.he has provided over since 2010. -- de-skilling. With respect to the

:19:36. > :19:41.honourable lady, who lie no cares passionately about the NHS, and

:19:42. > :19:47.often asks the question about it. We have now 11,400 more doctors in the

:19:48. > :19:51.NHS than 2010 and 11,200 more nurses. We protected the NHS budget

:19:52. > :19:58.in 2010 when her party wanted to cut it. We promised ?5.5 billion more

:19:59. > :20:04.than her party web adverts to promise for the NHS at the last

:20:05. > :20:06.election. I think the characterisation she gives this

:20:07. > :20:14.Government as not being prepared to back NHS staff is absurd. -- were

:20:15. > :20:22.prepared to promise. Thank you. The primer Minister's focus on mental

:20:23. > :20:25.health today is very welcome, but does he accept that we will only

:20:26. > :20:30.achieve power of esteem when they except how far we are from at

:20:31. > :20:32.present? This is not a recent problem. The lack of recognition for

:20:33. > :20:37.mental health date back to the inception of the National Health

:20:38. > :20:40.Service as it is driven by our culture and choices as a country,

:20:41. > :20:47.rather than any particular Government. Darcy except that, even

:20:48. > :20:52.the measures laid out today, which each of themselves are welcome, will

:20:53. > :20:59.only really provide a fitting that the onto the problem and that, as it

:21:00. > :21:04.stands, we will be looking at progress of waging in decades before

:21:05. > :21:11.we achieve clarity of mental health conditions? Plaster. I thank him for

:21:12. > :21:15.his interest in the issue and there is a challenge because, when we

:21:16. > :21:20.legislate for clarity of cross-party support in 2012, there is a danger

:21:21. > :21:29.that a concept like that can be nebulous and that is why we asked

:21:30. > :21:33.Paul Farmer, who is the chief executive of Mind, to independently

:21:34. > :21:37.look at what they fear, reasonable progress by 2020 and he came back

:21:38. > :21:42.and he said he thought it would be a ten year process to get there. But

:21:43. > :21:45.this was the right ambition for 2020, and it was his report that the

:21:46. > :21:49.prime ministers except that this morning. We are making progress

:21:50. > :21:52.against benchmarks that independent people have looked at, but it is

:21:53. > :21:55.right to say that we will not get there by 2020 one and he must make

:21:56. > :22:02.sure they do deliver on that commitment wildly as I are both MPs.

:22:03. > :22:09.Very seriously mentally ill people rely on support from a range of

:22:10. > :22:14.services, mental health services but also housing, social services,

:22:15. > :22:18.sometimes the criminal justice system and family support services.

:22:19. > :22:23.Can I ask the Secretary of State what is being done to ensure a whole

:22:24. > :22:27.Government strategy to raise the standard of care, particularly for a

:22:28. > :22:31.very severely ill people who need protection from harm both to

:22:32. > :22:37.themselves and sometimes sadly to others in society? She is right. I

:22:38. > :22:41.will give her one example which is particularly true and that is an

:22:42. > :22:46.addiction services. Highly vulnerable people we are trying to

:22:47. > :22:50.help get off a drugs habit, also have a housing problem a debt

:22:51. > :22:54.problem, they may have a work problems. As you solve those

:22:55. > :22:57.problems holistically you are unlikely to be able to address the

:22:58. > :23:05.health problem that sits at the heart of those challenges. That is,

:23:06. > :23:08.trying to address, more joined up trying to address, more joined up

:23:09. > :23:15.integrated services but I am happy to have further discussions with her

:23:16. > :23:18.as to how we can make more progress. The Secretary of State in his

:23:19. > :23:22.statement has promised a Green paper on children and young people's

:23:23. > :23:28.year. That could be 11 and a half year. That could be 11 and a half

:23:29. > :23:33.months away. One in four people have a mental health disorder and the

:23:34. > :23:35.Government's own research says young people are disproportionately

:23:36. > :23:38.affected. We have heard stories including in my constituency of

:23:39. > :23:42.young people waiting over a year for support, including those victims of

:23:43. > :23:47.domestic violence, schools and parents are picking up the pieces.

:23:48. > :23:50.Young people deserve better. Well he clarify the reasons for what appears

:23:51. > :23:55.to be quite a long delay? Will he commit to bringing forward the Green

:23:56. > :23:59.paper earlier so that action can be taken more quickly and that this

:24:00. > :24:04.pressing issue is not kicked into long grass? Can I reassure her that

:24:05. > :24:08.we wouldn't be taking the issue into the long grass if we have a Prime

:24:09. > :24:12.Minister making a statement that we are going to have a green paper.

:24:13. > :24:15.There is a specific reason why we need a bit of time, which is because

:24:16. > :24:20.we want to make sure the changes that we make... We are getting a

:24:21. > :24:24.little bit of chuntering on the front bench. Don't they want to

:24:25. > :24:28.listen to the answer? The reason why we need to take some time is because

:24:29. > :24:33.we have a number of pilots happening in schools at the moment concerning

:24:34. > :24:36.improving mental health provision for people at the schools and we

:24:37. > :24:39.want to see those pilots through and evaluate them and allowed that to

:24:40. > :24:43.inform what we do in the Green inform what we do in the Green

:24:44. > :24:47.paper. That will take a little bit of time. What we will get at the end

:24:48. > :24:55.of it is the best evidence as to the right way forward. Mr Speaker, young

:24:56. > :25:01.people in Sheffield have for some time now been telling me that the

:25:02. > :25:09.awaiting 25 weeks for an appointment after a referral. Headteachers are

:25:10. > :25:15.telling me the aye digging into their badges to buy in support for

:25:16. > :25:21.pupils in crisis because they cannot access NHS services. Isn't it deeply

:25:22. > :25:25.-- deeply cynical for the Prime Minister be raising hopes of

:25:26. > :25:28.tackling the mental health crisis for our young people when the

:25:29. > :25:34.measures he has announced fall desperately short and the money

:25:35. > :25:38.falls short of what we need? It would be cynical if you raised hopes

:25:39. > :25:42.and had no intention of doing anything about it. But what she has

:25:43. > :25:44.said this morning in his speech was that this is the start of a process.

:25:45. > :25:48.She pointed to those problems and She pointed to those problems and

:25:49. > :25:52.she said we're going to have a green paper to look at how we deal with

:25:53. > :25:56.those problems in detail. That does take some time. We will get to

:25:57. > :26:02.position I hope one we can with those problems. In Sheffield, he is

:26:03. > :26:07.lucky to have that Professor working in Sheffield who is the NHS lead

:26:08. > :26:09.mental health psychiatrist and a specialist in homelessness and he

:26:10. > :26:14.was very much helping us to shape the strategy. I am grateful to the

:26:15. > :26:25.Secretary of State and colleagues across the House. Have you been

:26:26. > :26:28.informed of any intentions Secretary of State of Northern Ireland to make

:26:29. > :26:35.a statement to the for the wreckage -- resignation of the Deputy Prime

:26:36. > :26:42.Minister? The short and to the honourable gentleman is that I have

:26:43. > :26:45.not received any indication -- answer of an impending statement by

:26:46. > :26:51.the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on the matter to which the

:26:52. > :26:56.honourable gentleman refers. I appreciate it will of course be of

:26:57. > :27:00.great interest to many members of the house and the fairest thing I

:27:01. > :27:07.can say is that we must await the development of events. I am

:27:08. > :27:13.conscious that there is a Wes Minster whole debate tomorrow

:27:14. > :27:22.afternoon -- Westminster. The possibility of an oral statement by

:27:23. > :27:32.the Government must clearly exist. And on the same matter, I think,...

:27:33. > :27:36.My right honourable friend, over the last of weeks in Northern Ireland,

:27:37. > :27:42.we have witnessed continuing political instability that was

:27:43. > :27:45.immense proportions in relation to immense proportions in relation to

:27:46. > :27:49.the renewable heat initiative and the renewable heat initiative and

:27:50. > :27:54.the continuing failure of the First Minister to step aside while such an

:27:55. > :27:59.investigation which my party had called for took place. As a

:28:00. > :28:04.consequence, we see the Deputy First Minister resigned today, which means

:28:05. > :28:08.the house of cards falls. As a consequence of that, Mr Speaker,

:28:09. > :28:14.what other avenues are available to honourable members in this House to

:28:15. > :28:20.discuss this particular political instability and this difficulty,

:28:21. > :28:24.further assembly elections or new further assembly elections or new

:28:25. > :28:29.extremely sensitive situation and I extremely sensitive situation and I

:28:30. > :28:32.don't want to see anything. That adds to that sensitivity. The

:28:33. > :28:37.honourable lady enquired as to what honourable lady enquired as to what

:28:38. > :28:41.other avenues are open to ensure a discussion of this matter. In the

:28:42. > :28:46.using the word other, I assume she is referring to other avenues beyond

:28:47. > :28:50.the possibility of a Government statement, which of course it would

:28:51. > :28:54.be for the Government to decide whether to make. The honourable lady

:28:55. > :28:56.is well familiar with the mechanisms available for scrutiny of the

:28:57. > :29:04.the fairest thing I can say is that the fairest thing I can say is that

:29:05. > :29:12.I would be extremely surprised if this matter were not fully aired in

:29:13. > :29:17.the next few days in this chamber. As a speaker, I would want to

:29:18. > :29:23.facilitate the House if that is what is desired. My sense is that it will

:29:24. > :29:29.be. Desired. And that it will happen. On a separate matter, a

:29:30. > :29:35.point of order. Mr Speaker, many will be alarmed by the recent

:29:36. > :29:40.reports of attempts by foreign Government to take down members of

:29:41. > :29:44.this House, including a senior minister. Given the very serious

:29:45. > :29:49.implications of this, what measures will you take to investigate this,

:29:50. > :29:54.not least as one party to the discussions, according to the press

:29:55. > :30:00.conference, was or is at least partially a paid employee of this

:30:01. > :30:05.House? The honourable gentleman, I thank you for your point of order

:30:06. > :30:09.and indeed for notice of it. At this stage, in direct response to the

:30:10. > :30:13.enquiry by the Right honourable gentleman, I am not aware of

:30:14. > :30:18.anything which has happened is that is a matter for the chair. If it

:30:19. > :30:22.transpires that something has happened which is a matter for the

:30:23. > :30:30.chair, I will of course consider what action to take. The matter

:30:31. > :30:34.concerned is of course serious. I do not dispute that for one moment. It

:30:35. > :30:41.is, however, important to be accurate in the use of terms and

:30:42. > :30:46.language. To the best of my knowledge and belief, and I don't

:30:47. > :30:50.doubt the good intentions of the right honourable gentleman, the

:30:51. > :30:55.individual to whom he has indirectly referred has not been an employee of

:30:56. > :31:01.this hack House. The individual concerned was an employee of a

:31:02. > :31:09.number of institutions and people. My understanding is that she has

:31:10. > :31:13.resigned from one, I think, full-time post and from another

:31:14. > :31:18.part-time post. The part-time post which has caused her to work

:31:19. > :31:23.administratively with a member of the House, that part-time post has

:31:24. > :31:32.ended and the path that was available to the individual is being

:31:33. > :31:35.returned. I think that's a pretty full answer to the right honourable

:31:36. > :31:39.gentleman, which is intended to be, and I hope it is helpful. I don't

:31:40. > :31:47.think it will be helpful further to dwell upon the matter now. If there

:31:48. > :31:50.thank the right honourable gentleman thank the right honourable gentleman

:31:51. > :31:56.for raising the matter which is oppositely of concern to him, I

:31:57. > :31:59.don't want to invite trouble. The right honourable gentleman is a very

:32:00. > :32:05.senior member of the House and I knew he wouldn't take liberties. He

:32:06. > :32:09.is looking in a state of great perturbation. If he wants to be the

:32:10. > :32:13.point of order, I would stop him. He doesn't. What a remarkable display

:32:14. > :32:17.of self restraint by the right honourable gentleman. It might catch

:32:18. > :32:21.on, you never know. I think colleagues would probably say to me,

:32:22. > :32:27.good luck with that one. If there are no further points of order, we

:32:28. > :32:32.come late to the main business. We can now proceed to be the orders of

:32:33. > :32:34.the day. Technical and Further Education Bill, as amended in the

:32:35. > :32:42.public bill committee to be considered. Thank you. We begin with

:32:43. > :32:48.new clause one Wes Witcher will be convenient to consider the other new

:32:49. > :32:55.clauses on the paper. To move, I call the Shadow minister responsible

:32:56. > :33:02.for these important matters. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker and

:33:03. > :33:07.can I on behalf of everybody in the chamber wish you and all your

:33:08. > :33:12.officials and the Deputy speakers and the person taking your place as

:33:13. > :33:16.I speak a very happy New Year and the same to members of this House.

:33:17. > :33:25.The issue before us this evening which we will be pursuing is whether

:33:26. > :33:28.it will be a happy New Year for apprentices and for the new

:33:29. > :33:35.Institute for apprenticeship and technical education. Madam Deputy

:33:36. > :33:41.Speaker, the Government will no we have been broadly supportive,

:33:42. > :33:46.broadly supportive of the process that they are bringing forward,

:33:47. > :33:50.albeit it was somewhat forced upon them when their original mechanism,

:33:51. > :33:54.which was to get many of these things through the academy 's bill,

:33:55. > :34:04.hit a shipwreck because the Academy 's bill marked -- was not too

:34:05. > :34:12.popular with. We got fairly rapid notice. That said, we had a good

:34:13. > :34:18.committee stage and I want to pay tribute to the Minister for his

:34:19. > :34:21.reconstructive way in which he reconstructive way in which he

:34:22. > :34:27.responded to rest in committing. There is an old saying that fine

:34:28. > :34:32.words but no parsnips but I hooked words but no parsnips but I hooked

:34:33. > :34:36.by the end of the season -- this evening, I hope we have a view

:34:37. > :34:46.parsnips. A film you'll possibly for those of the vegetarian instinct.

:34:47. > :34:51.During the committee stage he and others moved in number of amendments

:34:52. > :34:54.which don't appear to have been taken on by the Government. We had

:34:55. > :35:02.hoped the Government would bring forward some of those amendments in

:35:03. > :35:11.their own form. I'm always slightly disappointed when intimations of

:35:12. > :35:15.progress at committee stage I not then met with specifics. The

:35:16. > :35:22.Government has the opportunity this evening on commenting on our

:35:23. > :35:26.amendments to do something about it. Indeed, to accept in principle some

:35:27. > :35:29.of our amendments. If they think they are defective but the basic

:35:30. > :35:35.principle of them is fine then they should take them on board. I want to

:35:36. > :35:40.move may to this amendment we have move may to this amendment we have

:35:41. > :35:47.put down and to start actually with one amendment with one new clause,

:35:48. > :35:53.new clause one, which we moved at committee stage and which I think

:35:54. > :35:59.remains valid. That is that this House should actually have an annual

:36:00. > :36:01.report on the quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships. We've had

:36:02. > :36:09.many discussions and argument in this place about the issue of

:36:10. > :36:12.apprenticeships. Much emphasis has been put on apprenticeship starts

:36:13. > :36:15.but far less emphasis, I don't make a party political point here,

:36:16. > :36:21.generally speaking, far emphasis on generally speaking, far emphasis on

:36:22. > :36:25.the process of completion. Those familiar with the famous saying it

:36:26. > :36:30.is not the beginning of a thing with the continuing of it until it is

:36:31. > :36:34.fully finished which holds the full glory will know therefore why we

:36:35. > :36:41.think it is really important to pit and this is not simply an input, not

:36:42. > :36:46.even an outfit but also an outcome. In broad terms, we have supported

:36:47. > :36:48.the major expansion of apprenticeship starts although the

:36:49. > :36:54.Government remains responsible for the target of 3 million starts by

:36:55. > :36:58.2020 whipped on previous occasions have come about by a rather curious

:36:59. > :37:02.set of circumstances. The Minister has rightly said previously that

:37:03. > :37:06.bridging the growing skills gap. The bridging the growing skills gap. The

:37:07. > :37:11.potential expansion might feel some of the courts needed to fill the

:37:12. > :37:16.gaps. This new clause is timely, given the sort of things, an

:37:17. > :37:19.exhaustive list, we believe would demonstrate those outcomes. Despite

:37:20. > :37:24.some progress in recent years, the some progress in recent years, the

:37:25. > :37:27.situation of young people not in employment, education and training

:37:28. > :37:33.remains fragile. The most recent official figures do show an increase

:37:34. > :37:42.in the low of 16 to 24-year-olds classified as economically inactive.

:37:43. > :37:47.As I have said grievously, they continue to the sector skills

:37:48. > :37:52.people, universities, have questioned marks about the quality

:37:53. > :37:53.of what those 3 million a year apprenticeships will be. Young

:37:54. > :37:54.people are concerned about them and people are concerned about them and

:37:55. > :38:05.concerned they should be of quality. The level of satisfaction has been

:38:06. > :38:08.high and showed no change from previous years but it is extremely

:38:09. > :38:12.important that we monitor satisfaction rates. In that process,

:38:13. > :38:18.we have to be watchful of the fragility of apprenticeships and

:38:19. > :38:27.those have fallen. -- apprenticeship success rates. They have fallen to

:38:28. > :38:31.71.7% in 2015. It is important to look at the evaluation budget in

:38:32. > :38:37.2015 in this area. It is a modest fall in the proportion of how

:38:38. > :38:41.apprenticeships make up formal training to 79%. But it is a warning

:38:42. > :38:47.sign for the Government and that is why we believe that, now we've got

:38:48. > :38:53.those new standards for technical education, it is vital to track the

:38:54. > :38:58.outcomes for each group. Last year's apprenticeship evaluation showed a

:38:59. > :39:00.slight increase in the proportion of people completing apprenticeships

:39:01. > :39:04.but we need to also add particular areas where there have been higher

:39:05. > :39:11.levels of unemployment among completed apprenticeships. That

:39:12. > :39:18.includes eye CG, it includes arts and media, which had 11%

:39:19. > :39:20.unemployment. -- ICT. Those have to be looked at as the be getting

:39:21. > :39:27.positive response from the Government. I moved onto new clause

:39:28. > :39:31.two. This amendment has two separate issues. The first is to build on the

:39:32. > :39:38.Minister's ashore during the committee stage. That apprenticeship

:39:39. > :39:42.panel would be set up to reports directly to the board and to ensure

:39:43. > :39:52.that a similarity and takes place when the Institute absolves

:39:53. > :39:55.technical education into its remit in 2018. -- absorbs. I had to say

:39:56. > :40:00.how happy I've been following the belatedly to the conservation

:40:01. > :40:07.document for guidance, which we were originally promised in the evidence

:40:08. > :40:15.session by the Delano, the shadow chief executive, would there before

:40:16. > :40:18.Christmas. -- Peter Lautner. The minister like to tell us at some

:40:19. > :40:24.point why they didn't emerge before Christmas. He did say, and I thank

:40:25. > :40:27.him for this, that I think we can square the circle by agreeing that

:40:28. > :40:29.the institute should draw on the experience of apprenticeships, so

:40:30. > :40:35.I'm pleased to announce we expect the Institute is to invite

:40:36. > :40:41.apprentices to establish an apprentices panel, which would be

:40:42. > :40:44.brought directly to the board. That panel would be made of apprentices

:40:45. > :40:51.from different off-peak evasions and experiences, it would decide for

:40:52. > :40:55.itself. -- occupations. I'm quoting from the Minister what he said from

:40:56. > :41:00.the committee stage, the Institute will ensure the third panel is in

:41:01. > :41:03.place before the Institute goes live in April 20 17. The institute will

:41:04. > :41:07.consider how best to engage with apprenticeships on an ongoing basis

:41:08. > :41:17.and how best to represent technical education should students --

:41:18. > :41:21.students as of 2018. Anyone reading the Hansard that would have gone to

:41:22. > :41:25.the inclusion, as I did, that this was a very welcome the set of

:41:26. > :41:30.concessions from the Minister and strong assurances, we thought, that

:41:31. > :41:34.a panel would be set up before April. However, when we have gone

:41:35. > :41:38.through the finer detail of the belated consultation document, we

:41:39. > :41:45.find a paragraph which uses the words, but perhaps, perhaps there

:41:46. > :41:48.would be the set of an apprenticeship panel which reported

:41:49. > :41:52.directly to the Institute board to ensure that apprentices have the

:41:53. > :41:54.opportunity to have their say about education and training. They can

:41:55. > :42:00.still improve the experience of those thereafter. Apps, Mr Deputy

:42:01. > :42:03.Speaker, you are a student of the English-language, as I'm sure most

:42:04. > :42:13.of the snow, is a lot weaker than the assurance. -- perhaps. As -- as

:42:14. > :42:19.most of us know. The assurance that a panel will be set up before April.

:42:20. > :42:22.The Minister also said during committee, as I said, about the

:42:23. > :42:30.Institute needing to get how best to represent technical education June

:42:31. > :42:34.and of those taking responsibly in 2018. Surely logical step to date is

:42:35. > :42:39.to establish a similar pattern for technical education shouldn't that

:42:40. > :42:47.are not undertaken apprenticeships. -- panel. Hopefully that panel will

:42:48. > :42:54.not be prefaced by the word perhaps. It's important that the experience

:42:55. > :42:57.and feedback help guide the new institute, particularly at the time

:42:58. > :43:04.frame involved and the capacities of the resources of the Institute are

:43:05. > :43:08.so limited. I want to come back to what we have said previously and

:43:09. > :43:13.unity, and I want to make the comparison between what is going on

:43:14. > :43:22.in this Bill, as to what went on in the eight G delve. If whatever

:43:23. > :43:26.structure the DfEE ever says. -- AG Bill forgetting apprentices and

:43:27. > :43:32.technical education dude and is seen to be inferior to not even done in

:43:33. > :43:45.the same way as the University's Minister made concessions on the HE

:43:46. > :43:53.Bill bell, then students in FE might think they are being treated as

:43:54. > :43:56.second citizens. -- HE Bill. I want to seek assurance that this panel

:43:57. > :44:01.will be set up before April and taking on board the war that we have

:44:02. > :44:04.boots tonight, and it is not able to accept it tonight, make sure that it

:44:05. > :44:12.goes on the face of the Bell in another place. I want to move on

:44:13. > :44:21.now, Madam Deputy Seagate, to our new clause four, which would place a

:44:22. > :44:27.statutory requirement to produce a strategy on career education. Now,

:44:28. > :44:33.now one could fall, and I'm certainly not going to, no one could

:44:34. > :44:36.pull the Minister on his enthusiasm verbally to get to grips with this

:44:37. > :44:40.subject. It was one of the best thing that he said when he was

:44:41. > :44:48.appointed and can any regular columns that he is now been having

:44:49. > :44:51.in FE Week, he has continued to elude to this, that we need to

:44:52. > :44:56.actually have a very strong strategy and very rapidly. That is because

:44:57. > :45:04.the rhetoric on career advice spell does not match the wilful reality

:45:05. > :45:09.facing young people. -- still does not. The Minister is here today and

:45:10. > :45:12.I have seen, and they had he has also seen, the very disturbing

:45:13. > :45:18.report from the Princes trust, which is just been released, which shows

:45:19. > :45:24.the self-confidence of young people about their future and at its lowest

:45:25. > :45:29.in eight years. That, and a whole range of issues cited in respect of

:45:30. > :45:34.that, and I'm not going to stray from the amendment but specifically

:45:35. > :45:38.advise and the state of jobs and careers are included in what is said

:45:39. > :45:47.in this report. So, when the Minister said, in his New Year

:45:48. > :45:51.article, for FE Week, that's 2017 is about making sure the gap right

:45:52. > :45:54.guidance is on offer for technical education and location, and

:45:55. > :46:00.apprenticeships, as much as it does University, reject him at his word

:46:01. > :46:04.and the new clause four that we have in place tonight, is to give a

:46:05. > :46:09.structure and a framework to what the Minister is saying. Now, I go

:46:10. > :46:19.back to what I said two members of the governing on the HE Bill when we

:46:20. > :46:24.were gelled that, I can assure you I will take this on board, this, that

:46:25. > :46:29.and the other. -- told. But you know as well as I do that we are

:46:30. > :46:35.legislating not just for one Minister of War one parliament,

:46:36. > :46:48.possibly, but with something like further education -- Minister or for

:46:49. > :46:52.one. But we appreciate you can in this area, but we would like to see

:46:53. > :47:00.the duty to publish the strategy or the face of the bill. There is a

:47:01. > :47:02.how's the providers, as he knows of employers, and employer's

:47:03. > :47:13.organisations who have queued up with his department. -- employers'

:47:14. > :47:18.organisations. To deal them help with the baby Government has dealt

:47:19. > :47:23.with careers in the past. That is when why I said when a state to him

:47:24. > :47:26.in the past, that they needed to promote strong career guidance, and

:47:27. > :47:31.I also referred to the cross-party verdict from the two select

:47:32. > :47:38.committee chairs on this matter. The Minister, I think, felt slightly

:47:39. > :47:42.aggrieved at this, but the truth of the matter is, if we are going to

:47:43. > :47:47.make a success of the Institute, we have to have these sort of thing

:47:48. > :47:57.boot on the face of the deal. There has to be a mechanism -- put. For

:47:58. > :48:00.whatever party and whatever governments over the next period of

:48:01. > :48:06.time for which this bill is advised to work. I well. I thank the

:48:07. > :48:10.honourable member for giving way and I know he feels passionately about

:48:11. > :48:13.this subject, but does he not also agree with the bank that the

:48:14. > :48:19.Government has an overarching approach to careers advice? It could

:48:20. > :48:22.be difficult bridging arrangement into this particular bill that only

:48:23. > :48:26.apply to technical education when there is a much broader issue at

:48:27. > :48:30.stake, which the Government is tackling at a strategic level. I

:48:31. > :48:33.care what the honourable gentleman at least they and it is true, of

:48:34. > :48:39.course, but again, as with the discussion we are having at... Are

:48:40. > :48:46.available to have this evening, career education... At 16, nor at

:48:47. > :48:54.the remit of the DfEE in this particular bill. It start much

:48:55. > :48:57.earlier. -- HE Bill. If that is an ardent for doing nothing with any

:48:58. > :49:02.limited area of this Bill, I don't agree. We have to do something with

:49:03. > :49:04.that and I would like to see erupting structure he is talking

:49:05. > :49:08.about but, unfortunately, I would be quite happy at the moment just to

:49:09. > :49:19.see a limited erupting structure for the area we are discussing this

:49:20. > :49:24.evening. -- overarching. Two. About the ?90 million allocated for career

:49:25. > :49:30.enterprise companies over this, we need to see that how it is

:49:31. > :49:39.distributed and if Accu wrote. -- to talk about. By the Institute. --

:49:40. > :49:42.accurate. There was an very damning statistics. The proportion of

:49:43. > :49:48.respondents that the Minister knows saying their advice was very poor

:49:49. > :50:02.poor has remained high across all of the sexes. -- sectors. It's rather

:50:03. > :50:09.worryingly went on to say that 94 survey respondents were not able to

:50:10. > :50:13.receive any guidance at all. When we discuss this matter in committee,

:50:14. > :50:19.those are the sort of statistics that we have available. And I said,

:50:20. > :50:24.perfectly verbally, I thought, that alone the careers and enterprise

:50:25. > :50:28.company were beginning to make progress. -- fairly. That I didn't

:50:29. > :50:33.agree that, because they are heavily relied on volunteers, that they were

:50:34. > :50:39.yet able to give the coverage and necessary. In December, early, in

:50:40. > :50:42.December, we learned that the US and enterprise company does not cater to

:50:43. > :50:49.every college around the country, including the hell of London. --

:50:50. > :50:57.carriers. -- Hall of London. There are cold areas at the moment. --

:50:58. > :51:03.whole. A lot of areas are not covered and London is completely

:51:04. > :51:06.absent. Claudia Harris of the honourable gentleman confirmed that

:51:07. > :51:17.the company did not like that any of the capital's CEC colleges. She

:51:18. > :51:24.landed the lack of college on ramp-up. Ramp-up is what lesser

:51:25. > :51:31.mortals would call the rolling out of pilots. I await a definition from

:51:32. > :51:38.the Minister on that point. I'm not playing the blame for this at the

:51:39. > :51:43.door for the careers and enterprise company I believe that the

:51:44. > :51:49.Government are expecting them to do too much with too little, and I also

:51:50. > :51:55.agree that, to have a company that is so heavily reliant on volunteers,

:51:56. > :51:58.to carry out these that Basques, is actually probably something that the

:51:59. > :52:06.Government have to think about and would again at. -- tasks. She, as I

:52:07. > :52:09.said, then there would be an expansion of this to all schools

:52:10. > :52:15.over the coming year, and that is fine. But where are the budget

:52:16. > :52:20.implications for this? Is the Minister working on the Chancellor

:52:21. > :52:24.already on a substantial high in the budget for the finding in this area?

:52:25. > :52:29.Because he will certainly need it if he's going to address the issues

:52:30. > :52:34.that we are talking about in this new clause.

:52:35. > :52:42.There was a report in the middle of December which shoot the pure

:52:43. > :52:47.quality of careers advice was limiting young people's choices.

:52:48. > :52:50.Research carried out by the Institute for employment research at

:52:51. > :52:57.the University of Warwick and commissioned by the foundation found

:52:58. > :53:02.that only 1%, only 1%, of students had viewed careers advice at the

:53:03. > :53:06.most important influence to stay on in further education. Over half of

:53:07. > :53:13.them have said they wanted more information from employers. In the

:53:14. > :53:20.New Year, the Minister New Year article, keep it priority on this. I

:53:21. > :53:27.am taking him at his word. If these are indeed be Minister's aim, this

:53:28. > :53:32.amendment, this clause which sets out fairly comprehensively how this

:53:33. > :53:37.process would operate and if there are technical deficiencies in it or

:53:38. > :53:41.practical deficiencies in it or drop Winship, we are welcome to your

:53:42. > :53:48.suggestion, this amendment, new clause, is exactly what he needs to

:53:49. > :53:52.make his rhetoric a reality. There is another saying that if wishes

:53:53. > :54:00.were horses, beggars would ride. Maybe the Minister should get on and

:54:01. > :54:05.accept what we say, otherwise he will remain a beggar come the budget

:54:06. > :54:10.and we'll be looking for a scrap at the Chancellor's table. The other

:54:11. > :54:15.thing, while blue on the subject of careers, one of the other things the

:54:16. > :54:22.Minister used an earlier in the year at the Tory party conference, which

:54:23. > :54:25.again we applaud and leave the previous Education Secretary had

:54:26. > :54:30.made some announcements about it, plans to allow schools to give

:54:31. > :54:35.people vocational academic route when providing careers advice, we

:54:36. > :54:40.are told by the Times educational supplement was told, that's now been

:54:41. > :54:46.put on ice as well. I would welcome some response from the Minister in

:54:47. > :54:52.those areas. If I move on now to some of our other amendments,

:54:53. > :54:58.particularly I want to just speak briefly to amendment format, which

:54:59. > :55:02.is making sure that the Institute must have regard to the need to

:55:03. > :55:07.promote equality of opportunity to pardon dissipate in widening access

:55:08. > :55:12.and participation. The Minister and I agree that this bill at present a

:55:13. > :55:17.real opportunity to reform an neglected vocational pathways and

:55:18. > :55:20.support both 16 institutions. Presently, there are too few

:55:21. > :55:25.students from disadvantaged backgrounds transitioning from level

:55:26. > :55:30.to to higher levels of study. This means thousands of young people are

:55:31. > :55:34.not realising their potential. High-quality technical education and

:55:35. > :55:39.work -based training must act as a vehicle for social mobility and we

:55:40. > :55:48.believe that by giving the Institute this obligation, it will help focus

:55:49. > :55:53.it on changing that staters call. Presently, the Government does not

:55:54. > :55:56.publish data, I stand to be corrected here, my belief that

:55:57. > :55:59.Government does not publish data on the social background of apprentices

:56:00. > :56:04.and that means it is difficult to assess just how many people from

:56:05. > :56:08.disadvantaged backgrounds are starting and completing them.

:56:09. > :56:11.However, we do note that recent research published by the social

:56:12. > :56:16.mobility commission found that nationally young people eligible for

:56:17. > :56:19.free school meals I have is likely to start and complete an

:56:20. > :56:28.apprenticeship as there are better off peers. Just under 50% of

:56:29. > :56:35.students in that capacity team and a or C GCSE in English or maths by 19

:56:36. > :56:39.as opposed to 74% of the better off peers. That means they lack the

:56:40. > :56:49.grades to in rule on the level three pathways. There are also figures

:56:50. > :56:54.that show that only 36% of them achieve a level three qualification

:56:55. > :56:58.and that's compared with 61% of their better off peers. That shows

:56:59. > :57:05.the importance of the transition year which is proposed in the

:57:06. > :57:09.proposed 16 year skill plan. If that doesn't happen are doesn't happen

:57:10. > :57:16.well, we will see a bigger gap, wider access to the new technical

:57:17. > :57:21.routes and that will prevent them from being an effective vehicle for

:57:22. > :57:25.social mobility. Why didn't participation amendment is

:57:26. > :57:35.an increasing focus on widening an increasing focus on widening

:57:36. > :57:39.participation and funding in 27 -- investing 33 million in wider

:57:40. > :57:41.participation. Further education including apprenticeships deserve

:57:42. > :57:46.the same sort of attention and scrutiny and the Institute must be

:57:47. > :57:49.required annually to measure and report on the gap between

:57:50. > :57:52.disadvantaged young people and their disadvantaged young people and their

:57:53. > :57:58.peers accessing and progressing from technical pathways. I wasn't so

:57:59. > :58:02.aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, happy aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, happy

:58:03. > :58:08.New Year to you as well. If I wasn't so aware of the woeful inadequacy of

:58:09. > :58:16.these staffing proposals at the moment by the Institute, I might

:58:17. > :58:23.suggest the Government might take a leaf out of HEA and have an offer

:58:24. > :58:26.for HD students. We are not asking for that tonight. What we are asking

:58:27. > :58:36.for is an appreciation of the fact that there needs to be that

:58:37. > :58:43.particular focus for the Institute. I also want to couple it. We've

:58:44. > :58:47.talked a lot in this chamber in the last year about the timescale for

:58:48. > :58:52.delivering this 3 million target. I also want to talk briefly to

:58:53. > :58:58.amendment five. Amendment five says that the Institute should and must

:58:59. > :59:04.cooperate with the apprenticeship delivery board on a progression into

:59:05. > :59:11.and delivery of apprenticeships. Now, at the terms of reference for

:59:12. > :59:17.that delivery board were originally to have a board cheered by the

:59:18. > :59:21.chairman of the apprenticeship Ambassador network and the Prime

:59:22. > :59:23.Minister's adviser on apprenticeships to provide support

:59:24. > :59:28.across all areas to ensure the Government's ambition of it using 3

:59:29. > :59:34.million programmes by 2020. It talked about the purpose to

:59:35. > :59:38.implement employment engagement strategy, increase the number of

:59:39. > :59:43.apprenticeships, secured new employment and engagement. It

:59:44. > :59:49.sounded great. But when you delves into the delivery of the board, a

:59:50. > :59:52.little further, it's not quite as it seems. First of all, the terms of

:59:53. > :00:00.reference of it being shared by the Prime Minister's advisers on

:00:01. > :00:03.apprenticeship. The Government could share, the honourable member for

:00:04. > :00:12.Stratford-upon-Avon was stood down last autumn and that left only the

:00:13. > :00:17.previous private sector chair of the board as its sole chair. People are

:00:18. > :00:20.going to ask- where is the Government's adviser on

:00:21. > :00:25.apprenticeships now? How about the rest of this committee? When this

:00:26. > :00:28.Minister sang the praises the Minister sang the praises the

:00:29. > :00:33.apprenticeship delivery board but I do have to tell him there were also

:00:34. > :00:41.somewhat underwhelming so far. It was actually made up of members

:00:42. > :00:46.remain narrowly section of business. It only had one woman in its number.

:00:47. > :00:51.There was no rule for others, such as universities, trade unions and

:00:52. > :00:57.local authorities. There has been, to be fair, some progress with the

:00:58. > :00:59.number of women on the ADP and it's now got three. It's important those

:01:00. > :01:04.lessons are taken on board the Institute. When the board was

:01:05. > :01:09.announced, it was advertised as being a key part of the process. It

:01:10. > :01:12.wasn't simply there to be a bully pulpit but what a direct an active

:01:13. > :01:18.role. I question the Minister on that in committee and he responded,

:01:19. > :01:22.I can reassure the honourable gentleman the apprenticeship

:01:23. > :01:25.delivery board is in full flow. I meet with its chairman regularly and

:01:26. > :01:28.goes up and down the country and works with businesses to encourage

:01:29. > :01:33.them to employ apprentices, much of our success has been because of that

:01:34. > :01:37.board's incredible work. Yet, I do have to tell the Minister that when

:01:38. > :01:41.I've looked at the minutes of that board, and we have examined the

:01:42. > :01:45.minutes, I don't quite get the same sense of achievement. Because what

:01:46. > :01:49.the minutes shill over the summer period is a couple of employees from

:01:50. > :01:52.large employers telling each other about random conversations and

:01:53. > :01:57.meetings they have applied they have. With the occasional

:01:58. > :02:02.presentation from the skills funding agency about their marketing plans.

:02:03. > :02:05.There seems to have been very little coordinated action taken over the

:02:06. > :02:10.summer months and it's quite clear to meet the delivery board is not

:02:11. > :02:15.currently fulfilling that role. That is why we have put this amendment

:02:16. > :02:17.down. The Institute for apprenticeships and technical

:02:18. > :02:20.education does not have the resources are capacity to be taking

:02:21. > :02:24.on these responsibilities will stop their focus is supposed to be on

:02:25. > :02:26.developing standards. We know from the shadow chief executive that

:02:27. > :02:31.staffing levels and finance are staffing levels and finance are

:02:32. > :02:37.going to be limited, 60 rising to 100 possible when the technical

:02:38. > :02:42.educational elements kick in. We have a very short space of time

:02:43. > :02:48.between now and April start. I should have mentioned, Madam Deputy

:02:49. > :02:52.Speaker, a princely budget of ?8 million a year on which the

:02:53. > :02:57.Institute is supposed to be initially operating. There has to be

:02:58. > :03:02.more focus on marketing. The delivery board is not just a trade

:03:03. > :03:04.fair as these minutes suggest, it is meant to help develop and increase

:03:05. > :03:09.the number of pensions. It must cooperate with the Institute to

:03:10. > :03:14.succeed. It is vitally important now that the Government has strapped any

:03:15. > :03:20.involvement they had and visibly forgotten about apprenticeships. I

:03:21. > :03:24.want also to tut on another issue which we have moved an amendment on

:03:25. > :03:30.tonight and that is to try and get some clarity and keep its focus on

:03:31. > :03:34.the Government actually delivering money that will be additional or a

:03:35. > :03:42.substitute for additional Government funding. The Government was already

:03:43. > :03:48.spending ?1.5 billion on apprenticeships in 2016 and we are

:03:49. > :03:54.told the levy is expected to raise ?2.9 billion by 2020 of which the

:03:55. > :03:59.latest count, Madam Deputy Speaker, ?2.4 million will be spent in

:04:00. > :04:04.England. So, where does the additional money go? Last year I

:04:05. > :04:12.submitted a written question to the land skills Minister on this. I got

:04:13. > :04:14.a sort of response saying that by 2019 two 2020, we expect to

:04:15. > :04:18.2.5 billion on apprenticeships in 2.5 billion on apprenticeships in

:04:19. > :04:23.England. My maths told me that if ?2.5 billion is raised from the

:04:24. > :04:27.sector, and the Government is beating currently ?1.5 billion, that

:04:28. > :04:31.means an extra billion pounds, which is what the Minister's reply says. I

:04:32. > :04:37.come back to the point which we raised earlier last year- what's

:04:38. > :04:41.going to happen to the remaining 1.5 billion raised? Is it going to be

:04:42. > :04:47.40% for apprenticeships and 60% going straight back to the Treasury?

:04:48. > :04:50.The challenge remains for this Government to convince employers and

:04:51. > :04:55.stakeholders that this remains a stakeholders that this remains a

:04:56. > :04:58.genuinely long-term funding commitment for apprenticeships and

:04:59. > :05:06.not just something that becomes regarded as a Treasury payroll tax.

:05:07. > :05:10.I'm grateful. I apologise for interrupting his magnificent speech.

:05:11. > :05:13.problem of the pension levy is that problem of the pension levy is that

:05:14. > :05:16.the Government is all over the place on it. When I talked to a major

:05:17. > :05:21.supermarket chain, they said they have employees in Scotland, their

:05:22. > :05:24.payroll is be sufficient magnitude, they will have to do the

:05:25. > :05:28.apprenticeship levy but because of devolution, there is no guarantee

:05:29. > :05:30.that supermarket chain's apprenticeship levy funding will in

:05:31. > :05:32.fact in Scotland be used for fact in Scotland be used for

:05:33. > :05:35.apprenticeships. That may be the apprenticeships. That may be the

:05:36. > :05:40.case in Wales and Northern Ireland as well, I know not. That may go

:05:41. > :05:47.some way to explaining the gap that my friend has put his finger on very

:05:48. > :05:50.acutely as to where is the money going? It's because it's a mess

:05:51. > :05:54.between the Treasury who haven't come to grips with devolution yet.

:05:55. > :05:59.My honourable friend makes it very interesting and distinct points.

:06:00. > :06:02.Again, if I wasn't constrained by talking about this particular

:06:03. > :06:05.amendment, we would have some very interesting conversations about how

:06:06. > :06:13.the devolution situation is happening. I need to stick to my

:06:14. > :06:17.point out. The other point I would make, which is central to this

:06:18. > :06:24.amendment, is what I just referred to the Minister in respect of the

:06:25. > :06:27.coming budget. We now know that the budget I think, Madam Deputy

:06:28. > :06:33.Speaker, is to be in the first week of March. Issues as to what the

:06:34. > :06:37.rates and the threshold of the apprenticeship levy might be after

:06:38. > :06:41.its first year of as we going to come to mind. The former Chief

:06:42. > :06:44.Secretary to the Treasury after much prompting and questioning under the

:06:45. > :06:48.previous Administration of David Cameron has said, quote, the

:06:49. > :06:54.Government will keep the pension levy under review and I think all of

:06:55. > :06:58.us know that means it can go up, theoretically it could go down. That

:06:59. > :07:04.apprenticeship levy and the level which it is set and how much

:07:05. > :07:09.companies get back from it will be crucial in deciding whether it's a

:07:10. > :07:16.success or a flop. What conversation has the Minister had with the

:07:17. > :07:20.Treasury? It's only eight weeks away, I dread to tell you, to the

:07:21. > :07:25.budget day. To make sure that they budget day. To make sure that they

:07:26. > :07:29.get the balance right. The more we hear, I said this in me and I shall

:07:30. > :07:34.say it again here today, the more we hear about how the levy will now

:07:35. > :07:39.need to fund the devolved administrations, English and maths

:07:40. > :07:42.at levels two, incentive payments and non-levy payers, the more it

:07:43. > :07:44.seems inevitable that this Government will end up raising the

:07:45. > :07:57.levy. The and all the slightly more

:07:58. > :08:06.technical amendments. -- I want now to deal with. The first is designed

:08:07. > :08:12.to deal with the situation for privately funded and ASBO

:08:13. > :08:20.qualifications is clarified. -- and this bloke. Without clarification,

:08:21. > :08:25.there is a danger that the technical qualifications, we are told, that

:08:26. > :08:32.professional accreditation skills they further solely by employers. --

:08:33. > :08:35.schemes. We do not believe it is the intention of the current to include

:08:36. > :08:43.this but we want clarification. Yes, I will. I am grateful. I happy say,

:08:44. > :08:47.I'm slightly bemused by this amendment. I think I understand it

:08:48. > :08:53.but, when I come to this topic, it seems it would be desirable in

:08:54. > :08:56.England, if not in the United Kingdom, to have a professional

:08:57. > :09:03.framework of standards. Not simply that framework applying to

:09:04. > :09:06.qualifications, which were obtained through a state funded institution.

:09:07. > :09:11.Were expressed more brightly than that, on the face of it, it does

:09:12. > :09:14.seem desirable to me. Perhaps my honourable friend to say more about

:09:15. > :09:21.his approach to this. My honourable friend is quite right to raise that

:09:22. > :09:30.particular issue in terms of the national framework. There has been

:09:31. > :09:34.research reports over many years which indicate that the privately

:09:35. > :09:36.funded trading market has been exceedingly publicly funded one by

:09:37. > :09:42.considerable that includes specialist management training,

:09:43. > :09:47.project and programme management. I do think this is an area where the

:09:48. > :09:51.element perhaps needs to a little more carefully at how this process

:09:52. > :09:55.is going to move, but I absolutely agree with him about the need to

:09:56. > :09:59.have an overarching national framework in which we don't have the

:10:00. > :10:05.moment. Moving on, if I can move amendment eight, which would ensure

:10:06. > :10:12.the mapping of occupation groups, with particular regard for people

:10:13. > :10:14.aged 16 to 24, this is crucial because many apprenticeship training

:10:15. > :10:20.providers are reporting that, under the new levy system, employers are

:10:21. > :10:25.deciding to choose apprentices aged over 19, rather than 16-18 year

:10:26. > :10:31.olds, particularly when it comes to the new standards where, they say,

:10:32. > :10:33.there is very little incentive for employers to take on younger

:10:34. > :10:45.learners, especially in the higher funding bands, where ?1000 bonus is

:10:46. > :10:49.available. As the Minister will know, it has predominantly been

:10:50. > :10:53.delivered up to now, apprenticeships for 16-18 -year-olds are seeing

:10:54. > :10:59.their majority of business switch to older individuals. Now, if you

:11:00. > :11:10.look... If one looks at the Sainsbury's comments, the changes in

:11:11. > :11:14.funding. -- award Sainsbury. Apprentices in the same band have

:11:15. > :11:19.little effort to change that. Maybe that is the current's plan. If it is

:11:20. > :11:24.so, the current have to be honest and tell us. If not, something has

:11:25. > :11:28.to do the changed. Otherwise, we are in danger of ending up with fewer

:11:29. > :11:37.apprenticeship opportunities for 16-18 year olds. I would quote to

:11:38. > :11:41.the Minister the remarks of JTL recently, a training provider, who

:11:42. > :11:44.say that under the new system, and lawyers say they would do and why

:11:45. > :11:51.younger people aged 19 and older when they traditional age

:11:52. > :11:55.differentials are removed. 16 and 17-year-olds, sometimes, are not our

:11:56. > :12:00.on-site due to safety rules and some not having driving licence. It still

:12:01. > :12:09.makes it worthwhile to take them on presently, but removing the new --

:12:10. > :12:16.and letting the new guidelines would make it difficult to do so. It was

:12:17. > :12:20.thoughtfully given the emphasis that the so-called ?1000 incentive for

:12:21. > :12:30.employers to recruit 16-18 year olds simply doesn't work for the Stem

:12:31. > :12:35.sectors. I'm quoting again from JTL that the apprenticeship normally

:12:36. > :12:40.lasts for years, upgrading to ?5 per week, which is of no interest to

:12:41. > :12:46.employers. It is a timely reminder, a timely new rear area reminder to

:12:47. > :12:53.the Minister -- New Year reminder, of these apprenticeship campaigns

:12:54. > :12:56.that some parties are pleased to be involved with, a very broad range of

:12:57. > :13:01.people were met, changes were promised but they haven't solved the

:13:02. > :13:04.problem. They have applied and temporarily sticking plaster to it

:13:05. > :13:11.and how long it will stick remains to be seen. Coming on top of the

:13:12. > :13:15.continued lack of certainty about apprenticeships and the delay

:13:16. > :13:18.consultation, there must be concerned about the fragility of the

:13:19. > :13:29.Government's performance in the 16-18 area. Areas like Blackpool,

:13:30. > :13:34.where we want to see the skilled apprenticeships now. It has also

:13:35. > :13:42.been raised, I'm sure the Minister knows, the issue that a framework of

:13:43. > :13:46.only 15 groups across technical education... Denying many young

:13:47. > :13:48.people workplace roots of level two or three. We remain concerned about

:13:49. > :13:54.that, given that so many young people in the service sector are not

:13:55. > :14:03.like the GB covered by this. -- likely. This has been said -- likely

:14:04. > :14:06.to be covered by this. Whether it is about technical education or

:14:07. > :14:10.apprenticeships, young people in Blackpool and everywhere else needs

:14:11. > :14:13.good training, whether it comes from the service sector on the

:14:14. > :14:19.manufacturing sector. I would have thought that would have been made to

:14:20. > :14:23.group focus on that, that would make a huge contribution to the social

:14:24. > :14:34.justice agenda and even, arguably, to anticipate they impact of Brexit.

:14:35. > :14:39.It is important there is a skill strategy which is inclusive and,

:14:40. > :14:41.this is a perfect opportunity to create a coherent and inclusive

:14:42. > :14:46.strategy that covers a wide range of different abilities, attitude and

:14:47. > :14:52.striving for excellence, and that is what the intention of amendment

:14:53. > :14:56.eight is there to do. I want, briefly, to talk to amendment nine,

:14:57. > :15:00.which talked about all apprenticeship standards, including

:15:01. > :15:04.recognised technical qualification. The Minister well-known that it's

:15:05. > :15:11.not something we have been concerned about, a range of committees and

:15:12. > :15:18.governors recently, again, a LP, have been concerned about this. .

:15:19. > :15:22.Investment in time and measles is leading again to employability and,

:15:23. > :15:30.in some areas, the lack of engagement. According to just 30% of

:15:31. > :15:36.the current standard release, still don't have a mandatory column,

:15:37. > :15:42.convocation included. -- qualification included. This would

:15:43. > :15:47.be to make the whole apprenticeship a recognised qualification rather

:15:48. > :15:53.than looking at its components. I want to move to amendment ten and

:15:54. > :16:04.two group into it comments for 11-16 and indeed 18-21. Amendment ten on

:16:05. > :16:11.page six talk about the need to change between the title of

:16:12. > :16:16.documents to standard or technical design specifications. This is

:16:17. > :16:23.intended to ensure that only copyright is required at a level to

:16:24. > :16:26.acquit apprenticeships, regarding design specifications, which are the

:16:27. > :16:35.equivalent of assessment plans, are all, it is argued, ground for

:16:36. > :16:38.copyright. The Inquisition of acquired copyright, and this is

:16:39. > :16:42.something that city and Guilds have specifically raised in evidence with

:16:43. > :16:52.ourselves, other groups have as well, if the amendment come forward

:16:53. > :16:57.because there is a concern that imposing acquired copyright is one

:16:58. > :17:00.of the most significant risks to the future vitality of technical

:17:01. > :17:05.education in the UK. I accept this is a complex and technical area, but

:17:06. > :17:10.I do believe the Minister has to look carefully at it. I don't

:17:11. > :17:15.believe it is simply a question of assisting providers wanting to set

:17:16. > :17:21.in Stone a fall of protectionism. It is about intellectual property and

:17:22. > :17:25.where intellectual property starts and ends. The concerns of many

:17:26. > :17:32.providers is that there has been a degree of mission creep in the way

:17:33. > :17:37.the bill has been drafted. I do have to say, from a pragmatic point of

:17:38. > :17:41.view, is that broader definition of what the institute have to do in

:17:42. > :17:44.terms of copyright, which is the existing one in the bill, remains.

:17:45. > :17:54.That may require even more reason losses to police in UAE that advise

:17:55. > :18:01.have already mentioned, lacking support. -- in the way. There is, I

:18:02. > :18:08.say, are the important issue that we need to look at. I would like to

:18:09. > :18:12.also make the point that the concern that each technical level will only

:18:13. > :18:17.have one awarding organisation, something that has been raised by

:18:18. > :18:27.about the Centre for study, market reform of education and the NCSC and

:18:28. > :18:30.the NCS said, we believe -- NCFE. Only one of these going to one

:18:31. > :18:38.awarding organisation would provide... Would... To have one with

:18:39. > :18:43.the unfortunate, to quote Oscar Wilde, to have two would be

:18:44. > :18:47.beneficial because it would provide competition and we could switch

:18:48. > :18:48.quickly without having the multiplication issues that have

:18:49. > :18:54.caused problems and difficulties elsewhere. The NCFE cassettes, I

:18:55. > :19:00.think more in sorrow than anger, that the current proposals do not

:19:01. > :19:05.seek to provide the great expertise in designing and assessing

:19:06. > :19:10.professional and technical education provocations that already exist

:19:11. > :19:15.within awarding organisations. Turning, if I may, to our amendments

:19:16. > :19:24.11-16 to the bill, these are designed, again, to be consequential

:19:25. > :19:31.on the amendments in amendments nine. Under an exclusive licensing

:19:32. > :19:37.model, a licence holder for a particular qualification may assume

:19:38. > :19:45.a qualified model pollack position for the duration, that is one of the

:19:46. > :19:51.reasons why these are designed to move away from that principle. --

:19:52. > :19:58.monopolic. The principle, it seems, to ask is that there is a

:19:59. > :20:02.rationalisation in rewarding operations. Not necessarily the

:20:03. > :20:05.point of single operators on a licence and what this could do to a

:20:06. > :20:13.monopoly at the single point of failure alongside all the IPR and

:20:14. > :20:16.Crown copyright issues. I repeat, this is a concentrated area and they

:20:17. > :20:21.appreciate that getting the balance right is not easy but I do urge him

:20:22. > :20:25.to think very carefully about some of the representations that have

:20:26. > :20:31.been made and again, if we cannot do anything about them tonight, then at

:20:32. > :20:44.least two bring them forward in terms of the other place. The final

:20:45. > :20:48.area which I want to comment on... Briefly... I've talked about the

:20:49. > :20:52.roots and the rest of it, is the amendment and that the GAA because

:20:53. > :21:00.the amendments would ensure that the GAA would be in the about to share

:21:01. > :21:02.information. Information. QAA. And that degree of apprenticeships would

:21:03. > :21:07.be fully covered by this requirement. Ofsted should have the

:21:08. > :21:13.authority do respect every apprenticeship. While the Wellcome

:21:14. > :21:20.the growth and expects more under the levy, some are not genuinely

:21:21. > :21:24.work -based learning and are closer to buy degrees. -- we welcome.

:21:25. > :21:36.Stricter monitoring is needed so we argue that is the involvement of the

:21:37. > :21:38.QAA is really necessary in this. Apprenticeships have to be just

:21:39. > :21:52.that, proper apprenticeships and things that Ofsted have to be

:21:53. > :21:56.engaged with. I am aware that there amendments have had to be discussed

:21:57. > :22:02.in some considerable detail and some of them are technical, but the broad

:22:03. > :22:09.thrust of we are trying to do is to urge the governments, firstly, to

:22:10. > :22:13.act on its commitments and she go further and make some of the

:22:14. > :22:18.rhetoric around social mobility and widening, and participation, a

:22:19. > :22:21.reality. The only way to do that is to improve the bill with the sort of

:22:22. > :22:29.amendments that we have brought forward this evening.

:22:30. > :22:51.The question is that new clause one B read a second time.

:22:52. > :22:59.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the first time a microphone

:23:00. > :23:06.appreciate it. Can I first wish my appreciate it. Can I first wish my

:23:07. > :23:11.honourable friend and the House a happy New Year and also to all the

:23:12. > :23:17.Christmas and throughout the New Christmas and throughout the New

:23:18. > :23:22.Year as well. Can I thank you Madam Deputy Speaker for introducing the

:23:23. > :23:24.debate and I am grateful for the honourable member for Blackpool

:23:25. > :23:31.South for his amendment. As ever South for his amendment. As ever

:23:32. > :23:35.very thoughtful. I will start by discussing the proposed new clause,

:23:36. > :23:40.but I do want to just make the point that the honourable gentleman talked

:23:41. > :23:48.about completion of apprenticeships 70% of apprentices complete, 90% get

:23:49. > :23:55.employment or further training. We've got nearly 900,000 apprentices

:23:56. > :24:00.at an all-time high, a record in our nation's history. I think we are

:24:01. > :24:05.making good progress. He then talked about in the early part of his

:24:06. > :24:11.remarks. He will know that between two present 14 and 2015, a

:24:12. > :24:19.proportion of young adult increase to 90%, the highest on record. It

:24:20. > :24:27.fell in 2014 to 6.5%. The lowest rate since records began. He talked

:24:28. > :24:32.about the appointment and was going on yet again about Christmas. I have

:24:33. > :24:37.to say to him that it's not just for Christmas, it's for life. We want to

:24:38. > :24:41.get it right, we want to make sure that the appointments that we make

:24:42. > :24:47.our the right ones and not to do them in haste. I think that the

:24:48. > :24:51.honourable gentleman sometimes says we are doing things too quickly and

:24:52. > :24:58.then on the other times he says we are doing things too slowly. Now, in

:24:59. > :25:02.terms of new clause one, as I explained in the committee, the

:25:03. > :25:05.institute will be required to report on its activities annually under

:25:06. > :25:10.scheduled for the enterprise act and the report must be placed before

:25:11. > :25:14.Parliament. That provision will also allow the Secretary of State to ask

:25:15. > :25:17.the Institute report on anything else she thinks appropriate, such as

:25:18. > :25:23.the information requested the amendment. We think it will be an

:25:24. > :25:26.unnecessary and significant duplication of effort as this

:25:27. > :25:30.information is already collected and published by the Secretary of State

:25:31. > :25:35.apprenticeships. I have given him apprenticeships. I have given him

:25:36. > :25:40.some of the figures a moment ago. Much of this information goes far

:25:41. > :25:45.beyond the Institute. The ends digit's corporal from April 2017 is

:25:46. > :25:48.to oversee and quality assured the development of standards and

:25:49. > :25:51.assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships. Under

:25:52. > :25:55.the reforms in the bill, college -based technical education cannot be

:25:56. > :25:59.held wholly responsible. The job outcomes and wage rates for

:26:00. > :26:04.apprentices once they complete their apprenticeships. It is essential

:26:05. > :26:08.that the Institute is aware of the impact its making. We expected to

:26:09. > :26:09.make good use of the data and the outcomes made available to

:26:10. > :26:13.through these public data sources through these public data sources

:26:14. > :26:18.and surveys. And to explain in its own report have it has deployed

:26:19. > :26:25.them. I'm going to respond to new clause to proposed by the honourable

:26:26. > :26:29.member. Of course. I am grateful to the Minister for the work he does.

:26:30. > :26:32.He is very committed. Whenever I see him he is wearing the AA on his

:26:33. > :26:40.lapel for his support for apprenticeship. Can you clarify one

:26:41. > :26:43.point for me in relation to subsection two E which includes a

:26:44. > :26:47.report on satisfaction rate of employers. The Minister will be

:26:48. > :26:52.to reach the 3 million target there to reach the 3 million target there

:26:53. > :26:59.will be dilation. I'm not saying there will be but there is concerned

:27:00. > :27:01.there might be. Is the satisfaction rate of employers currently

:27:02. > :27:04.collected, not every employer but through sampling and published,

:27:05. > :27:11.because of it as it would be very important for it to be so that the

:27:12. > :27:17.concerns about dilation of standards can be relieved. I thank him for his

:27:18. > :27:20.comments. They are published and I think if I'm not mistaken it's near

:27:21. > :27:28.90% in terms of employer satisfaction. I'm very happy to

:27:29. > :27:34.provide him with information if you so requires. I agree with the

:27:35. > :27:37.honourable member for Blackpool that the Institute does need to consider

:27:38. > :27:40.the views of those who take an apprenticeship or a technical

:27:41. > :27:45.education course and I'm confident it will do this. He will know and he

:27:46. > :27:51.pointed out that we published draft strategic guidance for the Institute

:27:52. > :27:55.last week. In this document that we now open for consultation, we set

:27:56. > :27:57.out and expect the Institute to establish an apprentice panel that

:27:58. > :28:04.will report directly to the board. I am pleased to say to the honourable

:28:05. > :28:11.gentleman that it will be ready by April 2017. But I do want to make a

:28:12. > :28:14.wider point that I'm not... I don't think we should rush things, we need

:28:15. > :28:19.to get it right that apprentice panel will be made up of apprentices

:28:20. > :28:22.from different occupations and experience. The apprentice panel

:28:23. > :28:26.will decide for itself which issues to focus on and will challenge and

:28:27. > :28:32.make recommendations to the board. I am sure it will be a success. It

:28:33. > :28:37.will ensure that the views of apprentices are fed directly into

:28:38. > :28:42.the Institute's covenants. But it might not be exactly the right model

:28:43. > :28:46.in practice. I want to see how it works and I believe that the

:28:47. > :28:48.Institute, particularly in its infancy, should have the flexibility

:28:49. > :28:51.and freedom to decide the best way of gathering apprenticeship

:28:52. > :28:54.ongoing basis. What ever model it ongoing basis. What ever model it

:28:55. > :28:58.adopts, I would expect the Institute adopts, I would expect the Institute

:28:59. > :29:01.of his and similar for technical education shouldn't when it takes on

:29:02. > :29:13.this responsibility. I want to see how the apprentice panel pans out.

:29:14. > :29:17.Thank you. I just want to be... Because of the implications of the

:29:18. > :29:22.wording of the document, I want to be clear on this, is the Minister

:29:23. > :29:27.giving an assurance on the floor of the House that the panel will be

:29:28. > :29:30.setup for April? That he will review the progress of the panel on whether

:29:31. > :29:34.and if he thinks it's not the right and if he thinks it's not the right

:29:35. > :29:38.format of structure, that he will replace it with something that will

:29:39. > :29:45.be equally valuable in representing the views of apprenticeships to the

:29:46. > :29:48.board of the Institute? I am pleased to give the honourable gentleman

:29:49. > :29:55.that guarantee. It will be set up by April. I believe that it would be

:29:56. > :29:56.pointless to have an Institute of apprenticeships in Terrigal

:29:57. > :30:01.education without proper apprenticeship reputation. But I do

:30:02. > :30:07.want to see what is the best format and I'm sure it'll work. It will be

:30:08. > :30:11.a success. I just want to see how it pans out, as I have said. And then

:30:12. > :30:16.something similar for technical something similar for technical

:30:17. > :30:21.education students. I agree the motivation of the amendment but I am

:30:22. > :30:24.concerned about enshrining the establishment panels and

:30:25. > :30:28.legislation. I don't want to pick the Institute and a constant

:30:29. > :30:35.straitjacket of legislative red tape to reflect every good idea that

:30:36. > :30:39.there may be to how best to fulfil its responsibility. That amendment

:30:40. > :30:42.is unnecessary. It would undermine the Institute's power to regulate

:30:43. > :30:49.its own governance and perform its duties. In terms of new clause four,

:30:50. > :30:56.career strategy, the honourable lady made a remarkable speech in

:30:57. > :31:01.about this as I do. I think that we about this as I do. I think that we

:31:02. > :31:04.do have meat on the bones. It is not just words. The

:31:05. > :31:13.talked about budgets. We are talked about budgets. We are

:31:14. > :31:20.spending ?90 million. That is just an the work of the career centre,

:31:21. > :31:27.there is a separate ?77 million being spent this year on national

:31:28. > :31:33.careers service guidance. I am going further, looking at career strategy

:31:34. > :31:39.from beginning to look at how we can make sure it addresses our skill

:31:40. > :31:42.needs, how we can help the most disadvantaged, how we can ensure

:31:43. > :31:48.there is widespread provision and quality provision and how it leads

:31:49. > :31:55.to jobs and security. I will set out my plans on career is over the

:31:56. > :32:00.coming weeks. But the investment in the careers enterprise company, he

:32:01. > :32:04.seemed to suggest there was no activity in London. I've been myself

:32:05. > :32:08.to a school in east London, supported by the careers enterprise

:32:09. > :32:13.company and the local enterprise partnership doing remarkable work.

:32:14. > :32:20.Some 1300 advisers are connecting schools and colleges. They are

:32:21. > :32:26.looking and slowly creating a way to connect with 250,000 students in the

:32:27. > :32:34.75% of the cold spots around the country. There is money for

:32:35. > :32:39.mentoring as well. I think that the honourable gentleman talked about a

:32:40. > :32:43.famine. There's not a feast that there is certainly substantive and

:32:44. > :32:47.serious fans going into this. I could spend a lot of time listing

:32:48. > :32:50.all the different monies and things that their art but I think he looks

:32:51. > :32:57.at this carefully and fairly, he will see the work that the careers

:32:58. > :33:02.enterprise company is doing. We will monitor carefully the impact of our

:33:03. > :33:05.work, destination date will be included and the National

:33:06. > :33:10.time in January 20 17. Ensuring an time in January 20 17. Ensuring an

:33:11. > :33:13.even sharper focus on the success of schools and colleges in supporting

:33:14. > :33:21.the students. We did legislate for my time to make sure that schools

:33:22. > :33:27.gave independent careers advice in terms of skills and apprenticeships.

:33:28. > :33:32.That was done by my predecessor. There is work being done in schools.

:33:33. > :33:35.I welcome the thoughtfulness of the honourable member proposing the new

:33:36. > :33:40.clause but it's my view because of the action we are taking, because of

:33:41. > :33:44.the careers plans that I am developing, because of the money

:33:45. > :33:50.that is being spent as I've highlighted, the proposed new clause

:33:51. > :33:59.is not necessary. In terms of the amendment for, the equality of

:34:00. > :34:02.opportunity, this as you said requires the Institute to promote

:34:03. > :34:08.the opportunity to debate this. I the opportunity to debate this. I

:34:09. > :34:12.know why you've tabled it, why it is important. It is crucial to widen

:34:13. > :34:15.access and bridges are patient and ensure apprenticeships in technical

:34:16. > :34:22.education accessible to all, which is why I was glad that this year we

:34:23. > :34:26.have our 60 million fund to help encourage apprenticeships, in our

:34:27. > :34:31.most deprived areas of our country. I want to reassure the House that

:34:32. > :34:36.the Institute or pensions and technical education will have to

:34:37. > :34:42.have due regard to widening access and participation. We carried out an

:34:43. > :34:45.equalities impact assessment before publishing the post-16 skills plan

:34:46. > :34:49.which concluded the reforms are likely to have positive impact on

:34:50. > :34:53.individuals with protected characteristics. In particular those

:34:54. > :34:56.with special education needs and disability, those with prior

:34:57. > :34:59.attainment, those who are economically disadvantaged. The

:35:00. > :35:01.economic assessment concluded that all learners would benefit from the

:35:02. > :35:05.proposed technical education reforms, which will give people

:35:06. > :35:10.access to high-quality technical education courses. I believe the

:35:11. > :35:15.need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with

:35:16. > :35:19.access to and participation for technical education has already

:35:20. > :35:25.exists in the legislation under the section 149 and 105 of the equality

:35:26. > :35:30.act. It is expressible leak set out in sections of the 2009 act that the

:35:31. > :35:35.Institute must have regard to persons who may wish to undertake

:35:36. > :35:38.educational training within its remit. The Secretary of State has

:35:39. > :35:42.the power to provide the Institute with further guidance under that

:35:43. > :35:46.section. I hope that explanation that you confidence. I'm committed

:35:47. > :35:50.to ensuring people of all backgrounds have equal

:35:51. > :35:56.opportunities. Over Christmas, he will know that we removed the need

:35:57. > :36:02.for people who had hearing, apprentices who have serious hearing

:36:03. > :36:07.difficulties to do functional English and are able to do sign

:36:08. > :36:12.language instead. That's an example of my commitment as well as the

:36:13. > :36:18.extra funding we're getting to employers and to providers in terms

:36:19. > :36:30.of getting more apprentices who are disabled. Of course. Could the

:36:31. > :36:32.Minister confirm that bringing together the oversight of

:36:33. > :36:37.apprenticeships and technical education in one place will bring a

:36:38. > :36:44.court hearings into the system to help ensure and protect diversity

:36:45. > :36:45.and equal opportunity by clearer guidance on all opportunities in

:36:46. > :36:57.terms of career progression? My honourable friend and can think

:36:58. > :37:00.of all on diversity issues and equality is absolutely right. It

:37:01. > :37:06.will benefit the people who need it most. Many people from disadvantaged

:37:07. > :37:09.backgrounds and disabilities are very much prominent in further

:37:10. > :37:18.education and technical education. I just want to move on to amendments

:37:19. > :37:20.five in terms of the apprentice delivery, but I thought the

:37:21. > :37:32.honourable gentleman was a little bit unkind about the border. The

:37:33. > :37:40.board's representative, Channel 4, the London group, where

:37:41. > :37:45.construction, Ministry of Defence, retail, significant retail sector

:37:46. > :37:51.member, and, as he said, three women on it. They are doing important

:37:52. > :37:56.work. They are advising the Government, they are working with

:37:57. > :38:00.business to encourage them to have apprentices and I think these people

:38:01. > :38:05.are not being, as far as I'm aware, not being paid. They don't have to

:38:06. > :38:12.do it but they do it because they want to serve our country and they

:38:13. > :38:16.help the apprentice network, the chair, David Neville, is doing

:38:17. > :38:23.important work on that. I paid review to them and I wouldn't be --

:38:24. > :38:27.Mellor. Whether or not the Prime Minister has or has not, and

:38:28. > :38:30.apprenticeship advisor. As far as I'm concerned, the Prime Minister's

:38:31. > :38:40.apprenticeship advisor is the apprentice Minister, myself. And my

:38:41. > :38:46.boss, the Secretary of State. Having some adviser or not, I don't think,

:38:47. > :38:51.is going to change the course of history in terms of having

:38:52. > :38:55.apprentices in our country. I'm grateful to his generosity. I think

:38:56. > :39:03.a lot of us see him as a journeyman, to use an old-fashioned term. He is

:39:04. > :39:06.a Minister for apprentices. In terms of representation, I do notice in

:39:07. > :39:13.your list he read out and forgive me, because I did meet this before,

:39:14. > :39:16.any trade union representation. Is he an active trade unionist, are

:39:17. > :39:21.certainly was, would he agree with me that it would be desirable to get

:39:22. > :39:25.buying from the workforce side, we do have some trade union

:39:26. > :39:30.representatives on the board. I have to say, he was pleased to know that

:39:31. > :39:36.I am still a trade unionist and what a good idea. The board is

:39:37. > :39:46.independent but I will suggest it. I'm very impressed and supportive of

:39:47. > :39:50.the work that they do, which is widely funded by ?12 million,

:39:51. > :39:56.because of the work that they do to promote apprenticeships. Of course,

:39:57. > :40:01.it will be the case that the institute will consult with all

:40:02. > :40:08.these bodies, delivery board and other bodies, but, as I say,

:40:09. > :40:17.identity we need to straitjacket this is so much red tape that please

:40:18. > :40:24.stop it from being independent. The delivery board is not intended to

:40:25. > :40:27.have any special legislative corporate identity and it would be

:40:28. > :40:32.unusual to name it in legislation but, of course, they will consult

:40:33. > :40:39.with it, as with others. If I can move on to amendments six, this

:40:40. > :40:44.requires the Institute's expansion and anyone here to exceed by the

:40:45. > :40:50.levy. It's important to clarify that the Institute will not have

:40:51. > :40:55.responsibility for the budget, which resides with the Secretary of State

:40:56. > :41:01.for Education. Then the Institute is not a funding body, it will be asked

:41:02. > :41:07.to advise on the pricing of funding bands, the story finally from my

:41:08. > :41:11.department and not from levy fines. It follows that the Institute should

:41:12. > :41:19.not be obliged to spend funds to be raised under the levy. In terms of

:41:20. > :41:22.the devolution, the honourable gentleman mentioned, it would be up

:41:23. > :41:30.to the devolved authorities how they spend that money. If we were too

:41:31. > :41:33.tightly spending explicitly to the levy received, there can be as

:41:34. > :41:43.funding consequences for the programme as a whole. -- tie the. I

:41:44. > :41:46.think the budget spending on apprenticeships in 2019 and 2020 for

:41:47. > :41:51.England, and the devolved administration total in excess of

:41:52. > :41:58.2.9 billion. As opposed to ?2.8 billion. Training is preferable to

:41:59. > :42:03.directly linking the funding on a year by year basis to the wider

:42:04. > :42:10.performance. Of course. I thank the Minister for giving way on that

:42:11. > :42:13.point. The third largest college providing apprenticeships in

:42:14. > :42:18.England, training ever 9000 apprenticeships nationally, the

:42:19. > :42:23.Institute of apprenticeships are particularly interested in how the

:42:24. > :42:26.funding formula works and how it follows the work they are being

:42:27. > :42:31.directly in the gene disease. The point the minister makes your levy

:42:32. > :42:38.and the funding criteria and how it will be delivered, in giving that

:42:39. > :42:41.clarity, is very well this evening. -- welcome. I thank my honourable

:42:42. > :42:45.friend AA and it is brilliant whatever college is doing. I will be

:42:46. > :42:53.pleased, when I'm in the area, to either training. They will also be

:42:54. > :42:56.receiving significant funds. I congratulate that college for the

:42:57. > :43:02.wreck it is doing for apprenticeships. Now, amendments

:43:03. > :43:06.seven would limit the power to confer new funding on the Institute

:43:07. > :43:12.to state funded apprenticeships and technical education. All of the

:43:13. > :43:16.Institute's print functions in part four, scheduled for the enterprise

:43:17. > :43:20.act 2016, and schedule one of the bill apply to all apprenticeships

:43:21. > :43:27.and technical education both occasions, not just date funded

:43:28. > :43:31.ones. I would expect that any new funding coming from that should be

:43:32. > :43:34.the same way to make sure they are fully effective and do not treat

:43:35. > :43:38.anything differently in accordance with how they are paid for. We want

:43:39. > :43:40.to ensure that as many people as possible can undertake an

:43:41. > :43:45.apprenticeship or technical education course and I would not

:43:46. > :43:48.want this to be restricted to those that are state funded, purely

:43:49. > :43:59.because the Institute's functions have been limited. I now we spawned

:44:00. > :44:02.to amendment eight. -- respond. It is important that it is considered

:44:03. > :44:09.what apprenticeship might be considered appropriate for 16-24

:44:10. > :44:12.-year-olds and we know that apprentices are important to school

:44:13. > :44:17.leavers and making sure that anyone from the age of 16 will have an

:44:18. > :44:20.offering of either academic or technical education, or an

:44:21. > :44:26.apprenticeship. The occupational maps, which the Institute will be

:44:27. > :44:28.together, and which will guide Institute will be based on

:44:29. > :44:34.information about the skills needs of the country. They will focus on

:44:35. > :44:37.helping productivity and meeting the needs of employers. By putting any

:44:38. > :44:42.constraint around the development of the maps and the occupations

:44:43. > :44:47.included, such as focusing on a particular group of the population,

:44:48. > :44:50.it would damage this overall aim. My department runs a number of highly

:44:51. > :44:56.successful promotional and advertising this is to help make

:44:57. > :44:59.sure young people access the right apprenticeships for them. And a

:45:00. > :45:09.significant amount of 16-18 year olds take up stands objects. Will

:45:10. > :45:14.even as they give way? Can't I just ask the Minister on the point of

:45:15. > :45:17.STEM subjects and the advice given, is the real problem that, actually,

:45:18. > :45:23.successive governments have tried to do that and this legislation is very

:45:24. > :45:27.well-meaning in trying to do that, and will make a positive difference

:45:28. > :45:32.in many respects, but isn't the very real problem that successive

:45:33. > :45:36.governments have failed in their desire to persuade people that the

:45:37. > :45:40.vocational route is as good as the academic route? Isn't that a

:45:41. > :45:52.problem, culturally, for this country, which has the Devil also

:45:53. > :45:56.decades? -- bedevilled. That is right, one of the first things I say

:45:57. > :46:00.is transforming culture. As said, it's not just governments, its

:46:01. > :46:05.business as well that have underinvested. It has always been

:46:06. > :46:13.seen as a so-called... I head each end, Cinderella sector. The whole

:46:14. > :46:17.purpose of the Sainsbury re-forms is to change behaviours and give

:46:18. > :46:23.apprenticeships and skills, and technical education and prestige

:46:24. > :46:28.that they deserve. The real question for the minister, as it was when I

:46:29. > :46:31.was a Schools Minister, and other people, when a Conservative,

:46:32. > :46:37.Liberal, Labour relic, why would it be different this time, given that

:46:38. > :46:41.this is the sort of...? The Minister is absolutely right in what he has

:46:42. > :46:46.said, but why will it be given this time to all the other times that

:46:47. > :46:54.have gone before? Well, I wasn't around with the other times, but I

:46:55. > :46:58.do believe that reforms... Of course we have difference. There is

:46:59. > :47:03.cross-party consensus on the Sainsbury forms, the levies are a

:47:04. > :47:09.fundamental reform and it's not just about changing this. -- reform. I

:47:10. > :47:15.believe there's a new conversation about apprenticeships and things are

:47:16. > :47:21.changing. Of course, the proof of the pudding will be any teaching but

:47:22. > :47:28.we are on Egypt of something very special but a lot more has to be

:47:29. > :47:37.done. -- the tip. I will just speak briefly on the other amendments.

:47:38. > :47:46.Some of them. Because of time. The amendment nine, we... Feel that we

:47:47. > :47:49.don't need to, whilst it's important, I understand, things that

:47:50. > :47:56.the honourable gentleman races, we feel that it's not necessary to have

:47:57. > :48:04.an amendment on that. -- raises. The important feature on amendment on

:48:05. > :48:09.apprenticeships and it is on qualifications making up an

:48:10. > :48:13.apprenticeship to want an end assessment. By not mandating

:48:14. > :48:16.qualification standards unless they meet these criteria, ensuring that

:48:17. > :48:20.individual employers have the freedom and flexibility to turn how

:48:21. > :48:29.they train as an apprentice is to make sure they gain full confidence

:48:30. > :48:35.in C, -- competency. In terms of the education copyright permissions,