13/01/2017

:00:16. > :00:23.Order, order. We will come to points of order if that is what it is, in a

:00:24. > :00:26.moment. Recitation of Bill. Secretary of State for Communities

:00:27. > :00:33.and Local Government. Local Government Finance Bill. Second

:00:34. > :00:43.reading what day? Tomorrow. Thank you. I beg that this House do now

:00:44. > :00:54.sit in Private. The question is that the House and sit in Private? I

:00:55. > :01:04.think the noes have it. The noes have it. The Clerk will now proceed

:01:05. > :01:10.to read the orders of the day. Broadcasting (Radio Multiplex

:01:11. > :01:15.Services) Bill, second reading. I beg to move that the Broadcasting

:01:16. > :01:21.(Radio Multiplex Services) Bill be now read a second time. Mr Speaker,

:01:22. > :01:27.it is a pressured -- a pleasure to bring this bill to the floor of the

:01:28. > :01:29.House today in what I hope will be a constructive, interesting,

:01:30. > :01:34.informative and perhaps even entertaining debate. In starting,

:01:35. > :01:38.can I thank the clerks in the public builds office, my own staff and the

:01:39. > :01:43.radio team at the Department for the, media and sport in putting this

:01:44. > :01:48.bill together. It has to be said that it's somewhat interesting that

:01:49. > :01:52.we are here on Friday the 13th to discuss this. Some people say it's a

:01:53. > :01:57.day that is unlucky for some and I hope it will be a lucky day for this

:01:58. > :02:02.bill given some of the issues we sometimes have on Friday with Bill

:02:03. > :02:06.is managing to make progress. On the course -- in the course of my own

:02:07. > :02:13.remarks, I intend to explain some of the details in the bill and how I

:02:14. > :02:17.think they will bring legislation which will bring benefits not just

:02:18. > :02:21.to listeners of DAV radio but two other creative and media industries

:02:22. > :02:25.as well as giving community radio stations a chance to go digital.

:02:26. > :02:29.Plus a chance to create diversity and media that doesn't currently

:02:30. > :02:34.exist. It's also worth being clear that this bill relates to the whole

:02:35. > :02:40.of the United Kingdom, given that broadcasting is a matter that is not

:02:41. > :02:46.devolved, so slightly disappointing tonight that members who are

:02:47. > :02:52.normally keen to make points about bills which do not relate to

:02:53. > :02:56.Scotland on Friday are not here for a bill which directly does relate to

:02:57. > :03:00.them, particularly parts of rural Scotland which could allow them to

:03:01. > :03:05.develop services which do not currently exist or to give a real

:03:06. > :03:11.community feel. This is a bill for all corners of the United Kingdom,

:03:12. > :03:15.that they could all benefit from. The first point to consider, of

:03:16. > :03:19.course, is whether it is needed at all. I know the honourable member

:03:20. > :03:23.for Bury North who is in his place is one member who regularly and

:03:24. > :03:27.rightly raises this in relation to bills being put forward in this

:03:28. > :03:33.House, actually, what is this about? What will it achieve? What will it

:03:34. > :03:37.do? Passing pieces of legislation is not just for academic debate. What

:03:38. > :03:41.benefit will it bring and why should we look to bring it forward? I

:03:42. > :03:46.suppose the first part to explain this what actually is a multiplex? I

:03:47. > :03:51.expect many people when they saw this on the order paper read it and

:03:52. > :03:56.thought, what is that about? What is a multiplex? As the House of Commons

:03:57. > :03:59.library briefing note handily explained in non-technical jargon,

:04:00. > :04:06.and it's possible to get extremely technical in some of the

:04:07. > :04:17.descriptions, ADA be multiplex can be broadcast on multiple platforms

:04:18. > :04:20.using the same platform. Analogue transmissions are broadcast on

:04:21. > :04:23.individual frequencies and neighbouring transmitters cannot use

:04:24. > :04:28.the same transmitters as each other, so many of us will be able to think

:04:29. > :04:34.of a local radio station that advertises itself as 94 point

:04:35. > :04:40.whatever FM, because I'm analogue it's important you know the

:04:41. > :04:47.frequency. On digital... In a moment I will give way. Whereas digital is

:04:48. > :04:50.broadcast by the name of the station because it is effectively on the

:04:51. > :04:55.same frequency wherever you are. I will happily give way to my

:04:56. > :04:59.honourable friend. Can I thank very much my honourable friend for giving

:05:00. > :05:03.way. Forgive me, but I am not a particularly clever man, so I find

:05:04. > :05:08.it difficult to understand the technical side of this. Could you

:05:09. > :05:16.remind me, is F M part of that analogue or is that digital? I thank

:05:17. > :05:23.the honourable member for his intervention. F M is an analogue

:05:24. > :05:29.intervention and I will go into this more in a bit, as that is where most

:05:30. > :05:35.community stations currently are, whereas DAB, you tune in by the name

:05:36. > :05:39.of the station. You don't search for a frequency, you search for a

:05:40. > :05:45.station name. We could even have a chance for hedgehog DAB community

:05:46. > :05:50.sound if there were more opportunities for digital radio. A

:05:51. > :05:57.local station dedicated to promoting the benefits of the hedgehog as our

:05:58. > :06:04.national animal, I know a matter the honourable member takes very

:06:05. > :06:08.seriously. Many of us would probably listen to digital radio already and

:06:09. > :06:14.think, how does this bill fit in? What is the purpose of this bill in

:06:15. > :06:18.terms of a multiplex on a small scale? At the moment on digital

:06:19. > :06:23.radio, there are three national multiplexes that currently broadcast

:06:24. > :06:27.between ten and 19 stations each. These are probably the most popular

:06:28. > :06:31.stations. I went give them any promotion they really don't need.

:06:32. > :06:36.But they are the ones that you can hear in virtually every part of the

:06:37. > :06:40.United Kingdom and they cover about 97% of the UK population. They can

:06:41. > :06:54.receive one of the three national multiplexes. The latest figures are

:06:55. > :07:01.about 97% of the UK population can receive one of those three national

:07:02. > :07:08.multiplexes. There are then 58 local commercial DAV multiplexes covering

:07:09. > :07:13.county sized areas. Each broadcast commercial radio stations as well as

:07:14. > :07:17.the local BBC radio station for the area and from figures from the House

:07:18. > :07:23.of Commons library, over 90% of the UK population should be covered by

:07:24. > :07:27.one of these, so, for example, in my own area, I can receive BBC radio

:07:28. > :07:31.Devon through the local multiplex and also some of the commercial

:07:32. > :07:37.services that currently operate on DAB. Yet when we read that

:07:38. > :07:42.description, we instantly realise that there is a real gap in what

:07:43. > :07:46.most people recognise as the third layer of radio, namely community

:07:47. > :07:50.radio. We have national radio, regional and then we have the very

:07:51. > :07:57.small-scale community radio stations that many people know and love.

:07:58. > :08:00.Certainly. I am grateful to my honourable friend for giving way.

:08:01. > :08:04.Does he agree with me that when we are talking of these layers of

:08:05. > :08:10.radio, community is the one that we often forget about. We hear the big

:08:11. > :08:18.names in radio but the reach of community radio has such impact? I

:08:19. > :08:23.thank the Member for Brownhills for that interesting and pointed

:08:24. > :08:30.intervention. We could think of community radio that becomes famous

:08:31. > :08:35.across the country, because it does reflect very much the community that

:08:36. > :08:39.is being broadcast. We will see later Aric samples of particular

:08:40. > :08:42.places where there are communities with different language services

:08:43. > :08:46.which would not necessarily appeal across the UK, but in a particular

:08:47. > :08:52.area, it speaks to a need that people want to hear. When we see an

:08:53. > :08:55.explosion in opportunities on the Internet, it seems strange that at

:08:56. > :09:01.the moment we are very restricted in what we can get onto radio and even

:09:02. > :09:05.the bizarre situation where actually we can get far more TV stations are

:09:06. > :09:11.many areas broadcast free to air that we can radio stations. A

:09:12. > :09:17.contrasting situation that most of us will remember 20 or 25 years ago,

:09:18. > :09:21.when we only had the main analogue TV stations, but radio had started

:09:22. > :09:24.to expand. This bill looks to expand that type of choice. You can get

:09:25. > :09:30.more formal things from more community. It will mean something to

:09:31. > :09:37.you but not necessarily appeal to the whole area of a region. As

:09:38. > :09:43.touched on... Thank you, Mr Speaker and my honourable friend for giving

:09:44. > :09:46.way. After his clear explanation of the difference between these

:09:47. > :09:51.different F M and digital and analogue services, would my

:09:52. > :09:55.honourable friend agree that in rural areas like mine, that's where

:09:56. > :09:59.community radio stations can really come into their own because often

:10:00. > :10:05.they can't link into the transmitters and the sparse

:10:06. > :10:08.populations, those areas are where small community radio stations can

:10:09. > :10:11.serve a very important purpose? I thank the honourable member for her

:10:12. > :10:17.intervention and absolutely agree with that. One of the issues at the

:10:18. > :10:19.moment is that a community radio station radio station looking to

:10:20. > :10:28.sever very small community that might be viable fire FM finds the

:10:29. > :10:32.jump to DAB virtually impossible because of the revenue they have do

:10:33. > :10:37.produce. To build the infrastructure, that has to do why

:10:38. > :10:44.devote including nearby city -- by default include a local city in

:10:45. > :10:50.order to make it feasible. This thrust of this bill is to include

:10:51. > :10:57.more areas with the ability to go on to DAB in a practical sense, rather

:10:58. > :11:01.than just the theoretical. In a rural area, you would not be able to

:11:02. > :11:06.generate the type of revenue she would need to in order to support

:11:07. > :11:11.that and therefore you would not be giving a service that many people

:11:12. > :11:15.would like to listen to. I think that intervention... Briefly, then I

:11:16. > :11:20.must make progress. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:11:21. > :11:24.Would he agree with me that the plurality of an area is a problem in

:11:25. > :11:30.itself? It's not just about the revenue it needs to generate but

:11:31. > :11:35.also the signal strength that they are allowed. With the topography of

:11:36. > :11:36.a rural area, it can restrict how far they can transmit in the current

:11:37. > :11:48.analogue situation. The intervention, and she's right to

:11:49. > :11:53.point out that geography and topography is going to have a large

:11:54. > :11:58.impact on what people can receive in radio and television signals. One of

:11:59. > :12:01.the points of this Bill is that because it's about targeting the

:12:02. > :12:08.infrastructure that provides radio, it would potentially give options,

:12:09. > :12:11.as I'll touch on later, to provide a service where digital radio doesn't

:12:12. > :12:16.exist currently, or the choice is limited due to the topography of the

:12:17. > :12:21.area. That is a reason why, when you look at how the technology works,

:12:22. > :12:27.that having the current licence system hasn't kept up with it, so

:12:28. > :12:32.therefore needing a different option for stations on a smaller scale. In

:12:33. > :12:37.the same way as the old analog technologies. Originally, there was

:12:38. > :12:41.a small number of analogue stations broadcasting at a time when the

:12:42. > :12:45.technology was extremely expensive. Then as we saw the technology

:12:46. > :12:49.reduced in price, an increasing number of stations were created,

:12:50. > :12:53.including community stations. Now we need to look at creating a

:12:54. > :12:57.legislative process and licensing system that allows that technology

:12:58. > :13:04.that is becoming cheaper in the digital sense, to allow community

:13:05. > :13:10.stations to go on to go onto it. As I've touched on, in terms of

:13:11. > :13:14.interventions already, one of the issues with the current system of

:13:15. > :13:18.multiplexes is that many areas are to a large or it could mean

:13:19. > :13:23.providing almost irrelevant content for each community station to go

:13:24. > :13:28.onto them. For example, a community station that wished to cover Torbay,

:13:29. > :13:33.perfectly reasonable to be done under an FM licence, would end up

:13:34. > :13:39.having to be broadcast over a wider area, making any sponsorship or

:13:40. > :13:44.local discussions, or input for local shows and groups, effectively

:13:45. > :13:48.meaningless to much of the theoretical listening population.

:13:49. > :13:53.That's why this Bill is looking at creating smaller multiplexes that

:13:54. > :13:59.can cover defined areas in the wiki community FM licence can do. Also,

:14:00. > :14:03.the fact that there are such wide areas to be covered means that the

:14:04. > :14:08.cost of access is affected by the large-scale jump that is not

:14:09. > :14:13.necessary for looking to go onto analogue, where community licenses

:14:14. > :14:17.can be sought, forestation that is being operated out of someone was 's

:14:18. > :14:23.bedroom or being operated on the Internet from a small studio.

:14:24. > :14:29.Instead, the jump from that position to being on digital radio can

:14:30. > :14:33.actually see a fee of ?100,000 being charged, for them to have the right

:14:34. > :14:39.to broadcast. Effectively, they have to generate revenue of about ?1

:14:40. > :14:46.million a year to provide a DAB option in the area or in the local

:14:47. > :14:51.multiplex that currently supplies them. If you think of any other

:14:52. > :14:56.industry, put that really be tolerated? For me, it is this shelf

:14:57. > :15:01.that stifles the natural growth of the business from a bedroom or

:15:02. > :15:05.amateur operation, through to Internet broadcast, then to a

:15:06. > :15:10.small-scale broadcasting operation, then who knows what next? We have

:15:11. > :15:17.seen large companies develop literally from people's bedrooms.

:15:18. > :15:21.You'll recall the story of how Microsoft started off with students

:15:22. > :15:24.drinking Coca-Cola to keep them awake all night and has now ended up

:15:25. > :15:33.as one of the biggest companies in the world. I am grateful to him for

:15:34. > :15:38.giving way. It is all very well in making reference to commercial

:15:39. > :15:42.operations, but could he confirm whether this Bill would allow

:15:43. > :15:48.commercial radio stations to operate, or is it just intended to

:15:49. > :15:54.be non-commercial? I thank him for that intervention. I know he will

:15:55. > :16:01.have read the Bill and he will have seen that one of the subsection

:16:02. > :16:05.states that off, may require small-scale BDO multiplexers to be

:16:06. > :16:13.provided on a non-commercial basis, which is in there. But I think the

:16:14. > :16:16.thrust of my point mostly is that there are few other industries where

:16:17. > :16:29.you have such a shelf if you are trying to rule something, so going

:16:30. > :16:33.from a very small-scale operation to ?1 million a year operation. My

:16:34. > :16:38.intention is that most of this would focus on community radio primarily

:16:39. > :16:45.and be the main focus of both, licensing, though I would emphasise

:16:46. > :16:52.that there would also need to be detailed consultation with the

:16:53. > :16:55.industry about this operation. Fundamentally, we are looking at

:16:56. > :17:03.non-commercial, although when he looks through, he will see that

:17:04. > :17:06.doesn't mean eight non-profitable or charitable organisation. It may be

:17:07. > :17:11.providing an infrastructure that allows digital radio to be

:17:12. > :17:16.broadcast, which may carry stations, but has been telling away to allow

:17:17. > :17:24.digital radio services to be broadcast into an area. Certainly,

:17:25. > :17:27.if the Bill gets its successful second reading today, certainly at

:17:28. > :17:32.committee stage, it will be interesting to explore how we refine

:17:33. > :17:38.the Bill. What I'm clear about is this Bill doesn't put any

:17:39. > :17:42.requirements on existing multiplex operators and neither would it

:17:43. > :17:46.attempt to bypass those licensing regimes. So he wouldn't be able to

:17:47. > :17:51.have multiple small-scale licenses to avoid going through the current

:17:52. > :17:55.off, licensing procedure for those that are clearly commercial

:17:56. > :18:01.operations on a large scale. The reason I use the analogy is that if

:18:02. > :18:07.retailers starting out as market stalls and drawing from that, if we

:18:08. > :18:13.can imagine that the only options we provide for charitable operations

:18:14. > :18:20.would be moving from a market stall to a large department store. He

:18:21. > :18:24.sparked lots of things in my memory, with quite a long career involved in

:18:25. > :18:30.radio, I used to get frustrated when one was trying to bid into systems,

:18:31. > :18:35.particularly the BBC system, very complicated systems, to try and get

:18:36. > :18:39.your ideas on. I used to be very frustrated. This would offer the

:18:40. > :18:44.opportunity to set up your phone outlet and broadcast your own ideas,

:18:45. > :18:49.to give opportunities to many people on different levels. I wonder if he

:18:50. > :18:58.might comment on that. I wanted to get my environmental gardening and

:18:59. > :19:01.countryside ideas and back in the day, I was told no one was

:19:02. > :19:03.interested in those things, and that has been proven quite wrong. I thank

:19:04. > :19:08.her for the intervention, she makes a fantastic point. Sometimes the

:19:09. > :19:12.community radio operation can take a broadcasting risk that a large-scale

:19:13. > :19:20.commercial operation or even the BBC, with its requirements to

:19:21. > :19:23.licence payers, cannot. Earlier this week, we talked about the green

:19:24. > :19:27.investment bank, which was started to deal with the perceived market

:19:28. > :19:30.failure, but no private investors want to take that on and develop

:19:31. > :19:36.some of its actions into a profit-making venture, because they

:19:37. > :19:44.believe the market has changed. It is the same with podcasting. You can

:19:45. > :19:48.have something that may not seem inherited -- inherently profitable,

:19:49. > :19:51.but it can build an individual's abilities and talents that then

:19:52. > :19:55.allows them to move on to broadcasting more generally. In

:19:56. > :19:59.effect, is an incubator for what the future might be popular and

:20:00. > :20:04.successful services. Yet, if we have a position where you can't make that

:20:05. > :20:15.jump, then in essence, what we do is we restrict the options to those who

:20:16. > :20:21.can go on the Internet and find that, but when they go on to their

:20:22. > :20:30.DAB radio, they can't find it, or they have to rely on their FM radio.

:20:31. > :20:34.This Bill looks to fix that issue in terms of the scale of digital

:20:35. > :20:38.broadcasting by allowing the creation and licensing of smaller

:20:39. > :20:43.scale multiplexers that can operate in a local area, giving an

:20:44. > :20:46.opportunity to create the infrastructure for delivering

:20:47. > :20:50.digital radio. We must be clear technology has moved on hugely since

:20:51. > :21:08.the house considered these issues in the past. I may have to do greater

:21:09. > :21:19.interest. I may have to declare an interest. If I remember rightly, and

:21:20. > :21:22.maybe he can clarify this, when he was secretary of state for culture,

:21:23. > :21:26.media and sport, wanted and did announce, if I remember correctly,

:21:27. > :21:31.that he wanted to see the old analogue system called digital

:21:32. > :21:41.sooner rather than later. And I think at that particular type, we

:21:42. > :21:49.were expecting that this would happen very quickly. Could you

:21:50. > :21:54.clarify? Just to be clear, this Bill does not make any move towards

:21:55. > :22:01.turning the whole sector from analog to digital. To be very clear, this

:22:02. > :22:06.does not seek to end the process of seeking community FM licences, that

:22:07. > :22:11.will still be there. This is about creating an option to be able to put

:22:12. > :22:15.community radio onto digital broadcasting systems. There is

:22:16. > :22:19.perhaps a debate at some point in the future, that parliament might

:22:20. > :22:24.look at options to have a fully digital radio broadcasting system.

:22:25. > :22:30.However, as it stands today, that's not what's being discussed. It a

:22:31. > :22:33.debate for future years. With technology moving on, we don't know

:22:34. > :22:39.if we will still have separate broadcasting systems in the future.

:22:40. > :22:43.I suspect many of us use the BBC I'd play radio, where you can turn a

:22:44. > :22:48.dial, select a station and listen to them live broadcast. That doesn't

:22:49. > :22:56.come through a DAB system, it doesn't come through FM or medium

:22:57. > :23:04.wave, it comes through your Internet link. I think there will be a future

:23:05. > :23:10.debate about that, but to be clear, this is not about forcing anyone to

:23:11. > :23:17.go on DAB, or bringing an end to the analogue broadcast system, it is

:23:18. > :23:21.about giving a practical option for community radio to be broadcast on

:23:22. > :23:26.digital. That's what this Bill is about. Although there have been

:23:27. > :23:29.suggestions in the past, the UK might want to move to it. Norway is

:23:30. > :23:34.saying it will be the first country to switch off its analogue radio

:23:35. > :23:45.transmissions. There is some debate and I've been speaking to people in

:23:46. > :23:50.the industry about that. But fundamentally, it's a debate partly

:23:51. > :23:53.for another day, but if we get want, if this House ever did consider

:23:54. > :23:59.ending the analogue broadcast system, we would need to give a

:24:00. > :24:02.practical and affordable solution to community and smaller scale

:24:03. > :24:07.operators to be on digital radio, if we didn't just want to annihilate

:24:08. > :24:12.that whole sector. At the moment, the current system of digital radio

:24:13. > :24:16.would do that we went to a digital solution. It would leave large

:24:17. > :24:21.operators but take out hundreds of community radio stations. This is

:24:22. > :24:26.about giving them an option for digital, it's not about forcing them

:24:27. > :24:30.onto digital. And it's not about forcing existing multiplexers to

:24:31. > :24:34.carry them. They are not affected by this. This does not seek to force

:24:35. > :24:40.them to do anything. It's an option that is timely and might contribute

:24:41. > :24:46.to a future changeover, but isn't intended to. It is to give them an

:24:47. > :24:50.option. In terms of the technology moving on, with the days of

:24:51. > :24:55.large-scale broadcasting equipment be needed to broadcasting reliable

:24:56. > :25:00.radio transmission are long gone. The idea of engineers running around

:25:01. > :25:04.in white coats to fix various bits of equipment is just not what

:25:05. > :25:09.small-scale radio is about any more. Literally, some of these small-scale

:25:10. > :25:15.radio trials, the main broadcast was being run off a laptop and probably,

:25:16. > :25:19.it's theoretically possible to run it off a smartphone. We can see how

:25:20. > :25:27.small-scale broadcasting has become huge on the Internet. YouTube and

:25:28. > :25:29.Facebook are showing a range of changes and showing things people

:25:30. > :25:33.would never see on a broadcast channel. That says to me that more

:25:34. > :25:38.people want to be out there and hear this content and also the following

:25:39. > :25:45.rates you see at times, in terms of things broadcast over the Internet,

:25:46. > :25:47.again, it all points towards community broadcasting and people

:25:48. > :25:54.expressing their own experiences, that really means something to more

:25:55. > :25:57.people than watch certain broadcast television shows. To provide that

:25:58. > :26:03.opportunity on digital radio makes eminent sense. We can see the impact

:26:04. > :26:06.of digital television in terms of opening up a range of choice and

:26:07. > :26:13.opportunities to deliver new community services, and digital

:26:14. > :26:18.radio could be the same, if we give an option to have smaller scale

:26:19. > :26:22.multiplexes. As touched on, we don't know where technology will go next,

:26:23. > :26:29.and it's almost pointless to spend a morning speculating on, will we

:26:30. > :26:34.still have broadcast, will we do it through the Internet? What

:26:35. > :26:39.integration will there be in terms of technologies that might benefit

:26:40. > :26:45.or not benefit? But we do know, what we fundamentally know is that the

:26:46. > :26:48.technology exists to enable effective, community run small-scale

:26:49. > :26:51.digital radio broadcasting, and that's what this Bill seeks to

:26:52. > :26:55.create a licensing structure to allow.

:26:56. > :27:04.Of course, in any technology we may say yes, it exists, but is it

:27:05. > :27:11.practical? A year of work was funded by Ofcom to look at an approach to

:27:12. > :27:15.enable small-scale DAB broadcasting. The work included ten technical

:27:16. > :27:20.field trials in towns and cities across the UK. The three main aims

:27:21. > :27:25.of the trials were to one, test how well the small-scale DAB technology

:27:26. > :27:30.worked. Two, test how well the technology lends itself to several

:27:31. > :27:33.parties coordinating their services through the transmitter. Three, to

:27:34. > :27:38.give the market a chance to learn about small-scale DAB and the

:27:39. > :27:43.potential opportunities it presents. I'm sure some members before coming

:27:44. > :27:48.today will have studied Ofcom's report that was published in 2016

:27:49. > :27:53.and which concerned that the trials had achieved all three aims. First,

:27:54. > :27:59.that the technology worked and was reliable in terms of transmission.

:28:00. > :28:02.Second, that the ten trial operators gained significant experience with

:28:03. > :28:06.some actually innovating further in how this technology could work. But

:28:07. > :28:12.most importantly, the third aspect of it, is that across the ten areas,

:28:13. > :28:18.70 unique radio services are now being carried, the majority of which

:28:19. > :28:22.are totally new to DAB. This wasn't about seeing existing choices

:28:23. > :28:30.disappear or competition with it, it was about giving a new choice. Thank

:28:31. > :28:37.you for giving way. A QS question as to how much it would cost a

:28:38. > :28:40.community organisation to apply for a license, because that seems to my

:28:41. > :28:45.mind to be something that needs to be taken into account as well. I

:28:46. > :28:50.thank the honourable member for his intervention. In terms of the

:28:51. > :28:54.process to apply, this is mostly focused on the actual infrastructure

:28:55. > :28:59.so it would be possible for a couple of community groups to club together

:29:00. > :29:02.or potentially bore a provider or an organisation to provide a

:29:03. > :29:07.small-scale multiplex to help facilitate the growth and creativity

:29:08. > :29:12.in their area. A university would be a classic example that may provide a

:29:13. > :29:16.small-scale multiplex that would broadcast both the student radio

:29:17. > :29:19.station and give the opportunity to other community-based radio

:29:20. > :29:23.stations. To be clear, the bill also make sure there are protections

:29:24. > :29:27.around those who operate existing multiplexes. This isn't about

:29:28. > :29:31.creating a new competitor for them. It's about creating an opportunity

:29:32. > :29:35.for existing community services to go to digital and I will touch more

:29:36. > :29:43.on that later on in my speech. Only too happy to. Thank you for giving

:29:44. > :29:48.way. Can my honourable friend explain what the status is of the 70

:29:49. > :29:52.unique radio stations which apparently have sprung up, most of

:29:53. > :29:56.them knew? What would be their status if this bill didn't proceed

:29:57. > :30:00.and what is their status at the moment without this bill? How can

:30:01. > :30:07.they pay for it? I thank the honourable member. At the moment,

:30:08. > :30:12.they operate under a trial basis that Ofcom has created. I think if

:30:13. > :30:19.this bill didn't proceed, they could continue on a trial basis and

:30:20. > :30:26.potentially some indications of no, because it is a trial, but the

:30:27. > :30:30.current system -- if the current system is reinforced by the failure

:30:31. > :30:34.of this bill and the Government does not want to see a smaller scale, at

:30:35. > :30:39.some point those radio broadcasts would need to be brought to an end.

:30:40. > :30:43.My guess is that some might move purely to Internet broadcasting,

:30:44. > :30:48.restricting their audience. Others might seek to switch to a community

:30:49. > :30:52.FM licence, but this would be one of the few examples in this Parliament

:30:53. > :30:55.of us saying, we can see a new technology breeding and coming on

:30:56. > :31:00.and creating new opportunities and creating more diversity in the

:31:01. > :31:03.media. As we have done in previous debates, we sometimes get a

:31:04. > :31:07.misleading picture presented that people only get their news in this

:31:08. > :31:10.country from one source which is patently nonsense when we look at

:31:11. > :31:13.the number of options that are there. But actually to not

:31:14. > :31:18.create this type of opportunity, to create this type of opportunity, to

:31:19. > :31:24.look at when we have seen it offered up as an opportunity to say, no, we

:31:25. > :31:28.would rather you all went back to FM only and the National creators are

:31:29. > :31:32.the only ones who are able to take advantage of this, I think that

:31:33. > :31:39.would be a national -- a negative step and I see the Minister nodding

:31:40. > :31:42.some agreement and I'm sure we will hear that in his own remarks later

:31:43. > :31:47.when we hear the comments on what will be the future for those

:31:48. > :31:50.stations if we did not seek to create a permanent structure of

:31:51. > :31:55.small-scale multiplex licensing. I think it's safe to say the future

:31:56. > :32:00.would be rather grim. In terms of the technology, we know it works, we

:32:01. > :32:04.know the operators who did it successfully and they have created

:32:05. > :32:11.new services. The technology is there. The gap in the licensing is

:32:12. > :32:16.there, the next question is demand. I'll give way. I'm grateful again to

:32:17. > :32:22.my honourable friend. Could he say a few words though on whether the

:32:23. > :32:27.infrastructure is there and if it will be financially viable for some

:32:28. > :32:33.of these community radio stations to move on to the multiplex system? I

:32:34. > :32:36.thank the honourable member for her intervention. The infrastructure

:32:37. > :32:41.currently actually isn't there and that the issue we are looking to

:32:42. > :32:45.create a licence for small-scale multiplex is to allow the creation

:32:46. > :32:48.of that infrastructure. In terms of cost, what we do know is that the

:32:49. > :32:51.existing multiplexes work reasonably existing multiplexes work reasonably

:32:52. > :32:56.well for larger operators that I have touched on, those with a

:32:57. > :33:01.turnover of around ?1 million can find this an option for them. Some

:33:02. > :33:04.would debate whether there is effectively a monopoly in some areas

:33:05. > :33:09.but I am not looking to create that situation, rather an opportunity for

:33:10. > :33:18.small-scale operations. The feedback is very strongly from the market

:33:19. > :33:28.that the opportunity is there, particularly with the notion of

:33:29. > :33:31.shared multiplexes. As we touched on, as I have touched on, this is

:33:32. > :33:35.not about forcing people to do things. It doesn't compel the

:33:36. > :33:44.Minister to provide a service or provide a subsidy. It doesn't compel

:33:45. > :33:48.the BBC to help provide the service. My feeling is there was a strong

:33:49. > :33:52.need to do this for reasons I will set out in a moment and that if we

:33:53. > :33:58.don't do it, in leisure studies terms, we are effectively slugging

:33:59. > :34:02.it out. We have seen new ideas come along and we have seen them

:34:03. > :34:08.flourish, but if we do not give them the opportunity, I would really have

:34:09. > :34:13.to say, why not? I thank my honourable friend and thank you for

:34:14. > :34:16.being so generous to give way. I want to clarify. If the demand is

:34:17. > :34:19.there and as you have said before, people could be utilising this

:34:20. > :34:25.technology, would that not eventually drive the cost down? I

:34:26. > :34:30.thank the honourable member for that point. Indeed, yes. Things are more

:34:31. > :34:34.able to be done, as we have seen with experience in the past, as

:34:35. > :34:38.industries have grown and developed, costs have fallen. I am certainly

:34:39. > :34:42.convinced that in this area we would see the costs for quite

:34:43. > :34:47.significantly. That is if there was one, the ability to do it, too,

:34:48. > :34:52.there would be more multiplexes to work from with huge benefits from

:34:53. > :34:59.this, as you would not have do pay for an area you do not need, and all

:35:00. > :35:07.of the broadcast of element in the past have been that as things

:35:08. > :35:12.develop, things have got cheaper. We can look back 50 years ago and see

:35:13. > :35:17.what happened when we were overly top -- tough and regulatory system

:35:18. > :35:25.of broadcasting onshore. We ended up with people sat on ships just

:35:26. > :36:06.outside of our territorial waters to get...

:36:07. > :36:13.They would be open to possible small commercial stations, they would be

:36:14. > :36:18.able to access that, even though they are commercial station, is that

:36:19. > :36:27.right? My understanding is that yes, they would, though it would have to

:36:28. > :36:32.be very clear. This Bill would set a framework, consultation with the

:36:33. > :36:36.industry and off, considering individual licence applications.

:36:37. > :36:39.Possibly very small-scale operations would be able to take advantage of

:36:40. > :36:43.this, but there would be a process in place to make sure the rights of

:36:44. > :36:50.existing multiplexers were not affected and Julie, and that

:36:51. > :36:57.secondly, one of the considerations would be, if you had an interest in

:36:58. > :37:01.one of those other multiplexers, for example, rules specifically

:37:02. > :37:06.disbanding someone from applying to have a small-scale multiplex, who

:37:07. > :37:11.already had an interest in that local or national multiplex. So yes,

:37:12. > :37:15.it could give opportunity, but this Bill is very much about setting a

:37:16. > :37:21.framework of legislation, with detail to be taken forward. Partly

:37:22. > :37:28.about creating a framework is trying to have an element of flexibility as

:37:29. > :37:32.well, because it will be unique individual circumstances. There are

:37:33. > :37:36.some areas covered by the National Digital radio multiplexers that are

:37:37. > :37:41.not covered by the local ones, so again, we may wish to look at some

:37:42. > :37:45.flexibility there, to allow provision of digital radio. Is about

:37:46. > :37:49.creating a framework, giving opportunity. But there are limits to

:37:50. > :37:53.that framework, so it doesn't undermined the current systems of

:37:54. > :38:04.regulation. But this is a deregulation

:38:05. > :38:07.measure, in terms of providing an opportunity to small-scale digital

:38:08. > :38:09.radio stations that serve communities and that cannot

:38:10. > :38:12.realistically take on the cost of a local area multiplexers covers a

:38:13. > :38:14.wide area, so in terms of looking at the demand for these services, we

:38:15. > :38:19.know that as a technology that can work, at the gap in the legislation

:38:20. > :38:22.that needs fixing. But the next point, as touched on in response to

:38:23. > :38:27.that intervention, is if there is a demand for this type of system?

:38:28. > :38:34.There's little point in passing a law just for the benefit, for a

:38:35. > :38:38.point of argument, that the structure exists. It must have a

:38:39. > :38:45.practical effect as well to justify the time of this Parliament.

:38:46. > :38:49.At the moment, 400 community radio stations are in existence with a

:38:50. > :38:57.huge range of diversity in there that point -- output and we have

:38:58. > :39:04.real diversity in these registrations. Interestingly, there

:39:05. > :39:08.are quite a number of British voters -- which is forces radio stations

:39:09. > :39:14.and they operate as community radio stations, such as Aldershot radio

:39:15. > :39:18.and another one on Salisbury Plain. They operate using community FM

:39:19. > :39:23.licences. They would potentially benefit from this type of framework

:39:24. > :39:28.being created. There are community stations that reflect the area they

:39:29. > :39:32.are in, like hills FM in Coventry which I was once interviewed on and

:39:33. > :39:39.things like Riviera FM in Torbay which normally ends up broadcasting

:39:40. > :39:42.via the Internet as their sole digital output. If you could

:39:43. > :39:48.broadcast on the Internet, you could quite quickly convert to using a

:39:49. > :39:53.small-scale multiplex hence why I am keen for this structure to be

:39:54. > :39:56.created. As I touched on earlier, we have hospital radio stations that

:39:57. > :40:00.give more than something to listen to was staying on award, but are

:40:01. > :40:04.actually part of the local community. Several already operate

:40:05. > :40:11.as community FM stations. I would like to see them have the

:40:12. > :40:15.opportunity, if they wish to, to have community DAB stations. They

:40:16. > :40:19.are clearly not going to want to cover and approximately county sized

:40:20. > :40:27.area. They are not going to look to compete with a national DAB station.

:40:28. > :40:30.There should at least be a practical opportunity to go one to digital

:40:31. > :40:36.radio if that is what they see as the natural progression for their

:40:37. > :40:40.services. Can I congratulate my honourable friend and bringing

:40:41. > :40:43.forward this excellence built to broaden choice for community

:40:44. > :40:48.providers but would he also joined me in congratulating the volunteers

:40:49. > :40:53.who work across the country in our community radio stations and would

:40:54. > :40:57.also welcome the opportunity to expand their role in our

:40:58. > :41:01.communities? Can I thank my honourable friend and next-door

:41:02. > :41:04.neighbour for that intervention. You look at the way hospital radio

:41:05. > :41:10.provides an opportunity for volunteers to be part of delivering

:41:11. > :41:13.a service to patients but also to develop skills and talents that may

:41:14. > :41:19.well sustain them into a paid career in the future. Thereafter stories of

:41:20. > :41:23.people who have started off on community radio as a volunteer but

:41:24. > :41:30.are then a talent that they can take so much further. I know she will

:41:31. > :41:33.know of Torbay Hospital radio which regularly provides the outside

:41:34. > :41:38.broadcast system for a number of community events and fares and it

:41:39. > :41:43.isn't just sitting there. The image of hospital radio is someone sat in

:41:44. > :41:47.a broom cupboard at the bottom of the hospital playing requests.

:41:48. > :41:51.Actually, they get out in the community, do interviews and looks

:41:52. > :41:55.to be more than just a station we listened to in a hospital bed and

:41:56. > :41:58.one that really needs contribution. I thank my honourable friend very

:41:59. > :42:04.much for giving way. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my office, I have a

:42:05. > :42:09.young lady who volunteers at one of the local hospital radios and she

:42:10. > :42:14.said more over what it gives them is them the chance to go round and

:42:15. > :42:19.befriend patients. They are actually a conduit between the radio station

:42:20. > :42:25.and patients. That makes them feel befriended, they take their shows to

:42:26. > :42:30.the patient needs and it allows them to actually feel that somebody is

:42:31. > :42:33.taking their views as important and also listening to the things that

:42:34. > :42:39.they might want to listen to. Would he agree with me that actually when

:42:40. > :42:42.you hear so much negative about hospitals, hospital radio provides

:42:43. > :42:43.so much and can actually improve that element of loneliness we talk

:42:44. > :42:53.about often? I thank her such a passionate

:42:54. > :42:57.intervention on behalf of the hospital radios and I totally agree

:42:58. > :43:02.with her point. It's not just about providing a song to listen to, it's

:43:03. > :43:07.about providing the sense of community in hospital. Why would we

:43:08. > :43:11.want to maintain a licensing that effectively bar is the possibility

:43:12. > :43:15.of them going onto digital radio? Why would we want to say to them,

:43:16. > :43:22.you can go digital, but you'll have to do it on the same basis as fairly

:43:23. > :43:29.large regional radio stations? Or radio stations owned by fairly large

:43:30. > :43:33.media conglomerates. Why would we do that, by not allowing this Bill a

:43:34. > :43:37.second reading and allowing some small-scale transition to develop.

:43:38. > :43:41.We want to do that, not just because of the technical point wouldn't it

:43:42. > :43:45.be nice to have a better sound system, we want to do it because we

:43:46. > :43:49.think it's right to give them the chance an opportunity if that's the

:43:50. > :43:53.way they want to take the radio station in future. The whole point

:43:54. > :43:59.of this Bill is to give options. It's an option to go onto DAB. It

:44:00. > :44:03.doesn't make any requirements are then one and it doesn't require the

:44:04. > :44:07.existing multiplexers breeders to do something to allow them to do that.

:44:08. > :44:12.It just gives them the opportunity to do it themselves in a practical,

:44:13. > :44:17.affordable way, but without this framework, they wouldn't be able to

:44:18. > :44:26.do. So what exactly those reasons, we want to give them the

:44:27. > :44:32.opportunity. In short, there are lots of examples of where this Bill

:44:33. > :44:37.could help drive local service, great news and information from

:44:38. > :44:40.South Uist to the Scilly Isles. This is about giving legislative

:44:41. > :44:46.opportunity to form structure for that growth. Not asking the taxpayer

:44:47. > :44:51.submit fund a load of small scale multiplexes across the country, I'm

:44:52. > :44:55.not asking existing multiplexers owners to provide space on their

:44:56. > :45:03.broadcast systems for these services. This is about giving an

:45:04. > :45:08.opportunity. The one thing when I give a little bit of thought, is

:45:09. > :45:13.where this type of service might in the future provide an opportunity to

:45:14. > :45:18.help sustain local newsrooms. Across the country, many local newspapers

:45:19. > :45:22.are struggling to maintain capacity for investigative journalism at a

:45:23. > :45:27.local level. In the past, we rightly made sure there were very strong

:45:28. > :45:33.restrictions between a potentially dominant local newspaper owner also

:45:34. > :45:38.owning one of a handful of local FM licences. But with the Internet and

:45:39. > :45:42.the growth of other News sources, means a wider platform may be needed

:45:43. > :45:48.to sustain some level of professional journalism in an area,

:45:49. > :45:52.or not just seeing it reduced to purely the BBC having a pool of

:45:53. > :45:57.local journalists available. It's not something I'll dwell on in terms

:45:58. > :46:01.of this Bill as such, but it's worth considering where smaller scale

:46:02. > :46:07.digital radio operations might have a role in future. It's perhaps

:46:08. > :46:16.something to consider for future policy. Thank you. You see the

:46:17. > :46:24.taxpayer is not going to have to fund these small multiplexes. I'm

:46:25. > :46:29.wondering where funds are going to come from. That has to be factored

:46:30. > :46:33.into what each of these community radio stations would pay to use the

:46:34. > :46:38.service. I thank her for that most helpful intervention. In essence, it

:46:39. > :46:41.would be similar to how they fund FM transmissions, if they wish to get

:46:42. > :46:46.the equipment and go onto the licence. There might be some

:46:47. > :46:51.opportunity in terms of crowdfunding in other environments that could be

:46:52. > :46:55.decided to provide support. In local authority might decide it wishes to

:46:56. > :47:00.help provide infrastructure, and I emphasise that clearly, the

:47:01. > :47:05.infrastructure. It's not the role of the council to provide a radio

:47:06. > :47:12.station in the same way that it's not their role to provide a local

:47:13. > :47:16.newspaper. Would it be funded commercially? Is it we've seen from

:47:17. > :47:20.the trials that yes, there would be some demand from community radio

:47:21. > :47:24.stations to provide this infrastructure. The costs have

:47:25. > :47:31.fallen significantly. The actual cost to do it, particularly if

:47:32. > :47:35.you've got a friendly tall building owner, it can be relatively little.

:47:36. > :47:40.We've seen the community radio sector flourish on analogue, without

:47:41. > :47:44.heavy tax poor support or subsidy. I didn't see any reason why the

:47:45. > :47:49.community digital radio infrastructure would not develop in

:47:50. > :47:52.a similar way. By creating the opportunity, by seeing some schemes

:47:53. > :47:58.go ahead, it would give us a chance look what happens in reality. The

:47:59. > :48:04.Minister might decide that in years to come, particularly if there was a

:48:05. > :48:11.move to all digital, there may be an argument for support for community

:48:12. > :48:16.stations to support to DAB. But it's about creating the opportunity for

:48:17. > :48:20.them, then we can look at where new services have started. I can't see

:48:21. > :48:23.any reason why in Torbay it would be any different from Bristol or

:48:24. > :48:29.Taunton, if the opportunity is there, people seem to want to dig it

:48:30. > :48:32.up. As we will perhaps touch on and we have touched on there, there may

:48:33. > :48:36.be opportunities for groups like councils and universities to look at

:48:37. > :48:41.providing the infrastructure to allow creativity to spawn in the

:48:42. > :48:45.area. But this is about infrastructure giving an

:48:46. > :48:49.opportunity, it is for others to use their sparks of entrepreneurship to

:48:50. > :48:52.take specific ideas forward, not for the parliament to legislate on

:48:53. > :48:56.whether there should be a community radio station in a particular area

:48:57. > :49:02.on digital on whether a particular operator should be required to bid

:49:03. > :49:07.up an aerial broadcasting system. In terms of the bill itself, as I've

:49:08. > :49:11.already touched on several times, the Bill does not require any

:49:12. > :49:14.station to move to DAB, neither does it require anyone who has an

:49:15. > :49:20.existing multiplex to provide space on it. As I say, as I touched on in

:49:21. > :49:25.an earlier intervention, there has been a debate at times about our

:49:26. > :49:30.entire radio system going digital, but that is not the debate for

:49:31. > :49:36.today, this is just about providing an opportunity to go digital, is not

:49:37. > :49:40.about forcing them to go digital. I neither seek to interfere with the

:49:41. > :49:43.current local or national multiplexes. Provision may in

:49:44. > :49:49.particular include disqualification of those in a national or existing

:49:50. > :49:53.local radio multiplex. Any license may also include provision to

:49:54. > :49:56.provide services required by it to be done on a non-commercial

:49:57. > :50:02.business, yet there is a small bit of flexibility to allow for unique

:50:03. > :50:07.circumstances, where there might be a pressing case. Although I would

:50:08. > :50:12.emphasise, if members have specific concerns, they are more than welcome

:50:13. > :50:16.to join the Bill committee to look at this in and I know there will be

:50:17. > :50:24.a debate on how exactly we get the law right on point. It is possible

:50:25. > :50:29.in the Bill to reserve some space and four EE, and small scale

:50:30. > :50:34.services, which might be of benefit in isolated communities, or where

:50:35. > :50:38.there are limited opportunities to install new infrastructure. One

:50:39. > :50:42.point that may come up in some locations, this would apply in

:50:43. > :50:47.central London, there may only be a small number of tall buildings that

:50:48. > :50:50.are the realistic option for installing this infrastructure, so

:50:51. > :50:55.it might make sense in an individual location to have a requirement that

:50:56. > :51:00.you can effectively as part of the licensing of it, state that they

:51:01. > :51:05.must provide some access to another service. Again, that is not about

:51:06. > :51:09.compelling people on existing infrastructure, is about ensuring

:51:10. > :51:13.that, for example, we didn't have a circumstance where there were four

:51:14. > :51:17.tall buildings in an area and one operator decided to agree with the

:51:18. > :51:19.owners of those buildings that they were the only ones that had the

:51:20. > :51:26.right to put broadcast equipment on top of them and then see a license

:51:27. > :51:33.effectively excluding others. As I've repeated several times, their

:51:34. > :51:36.bill is aimed at putting this together, without being so rigid

:51:37. > :51:42.that unique circumstances cannot be accommodated. As stated in the

:51:43. > :51:45.explanatory notes that go with this bill, the final details were

:51:46. > :51:49.regulatory framework will be subject to a full consultation with the

:51:50. > :51:55.industry. There is one final issue that I do need to address, in terms

:51:56. > :52:02.of my own opening to this debate, is that I recognise this Bill does have

:52:03. > :52:07.a targeted power to modify primary legislation by statutory instrument.

:52:08. > :52:11.However, in justification of this, there are already presidents to

:52:12. > :52:15.create lighter touch regulatory regimes were smaller audiovisual

:52:16. > :52:20.services. A similar approach was taken by Parliament to create such

:52:21. > :52:28.regimes by creating secondary legislation but community radio and

:52:29. > :52:34.local television in 2004 and 2012. This builds on those precedents that

:52:35. > :52:39.Parliament has already accepted, in what are strikingly similar

:52:40. > :52:44.circumstances. The power in this bill will be used in a deregulatory

:52:45. > :52:48.way and will not create additional burdens on existing multiplex

:52:49. > :52:55.operators. Finally, to confirm that this power is only accessible by

:52:56. > :53:01.affirmative order, in both houses before such modifications could come

:53:02. > :53:05.into force. I am sure the Minister would wish to set up in his speech

:53:06. > :53:15.similar points and to confirm this is the intention of the government.

:53:16. > :53:20.This builds on precedents that have already been used on very similar

:53:21. > :53:25.areas of policy development, and I believe therefore it is appropriate

:53:26. > :53:34.to seek to have in this Bill, when we are dealing with something that

:53:35. > :53:37.is very, very similar. To sum up, this Bill creates opportunities for

:53:38. > :53:41.new creative travel to flourish, gets hundreds of local stations are

:53:42. > :53:47.practical and affordable way to go digital, and as I now we will hear

:53:48. > :53:50.from many members about to speak, the transfer more communities to

:53:51. > :53:53.have a unique choice of radio stations that reflect the area they

:53:54. > :53:58.live them. To not get this Bill its second reading would not be to help

:53:59. > :54:01.any radio operator, it would not be to protect any interest and it would

:54:02. > :54:08.not be to see things develop in a better way. It would merely be to

:54:09. > :54:09.block growth and development of community radio stations and

:54:10. > :54:14.restrict development in this industry in a way that we would find

:54:15. > :54:19.absolutely ridiculous in any other sphere. This is about supporting

:54:20. > :54:23.small community stations, it's about giving that the local opportunity

:54:24. > :54:27.and it's about allowing broadcast radio to reflect the explosion of

:54:28. > :54:33.creativity that is going on on the Internet. The days when we felt we

:54:34. > :54:38.should strictly regulate and control very small numbers of operations, I

:54:39. > :54:41.believe, are gone. That's why I hope all members will support this Bill

:54:42. > :54:49.and that's why believe this Bill deserves a second reading and one

:54:50. > :54:55.the Has full support today. The question is that the Bill now be

:54:56. > :55:01.read a second time? Or shall we have? I think which each year from

:55:02. > :55:10.Pauline Latham. Can I congratulate my honourable friend for making such

:55:11. > :55:14.an informed speech, but also for giving so much of his time to

:55:15. > :55:19.multiple interventions from many other members on this side of the

:55:20. > :55:24.house. Sorry and very surprised that there are no members, apart from

:55:25. > :55:28.front bench, on the other side of the house, because this particular

:55:29. > :55:37.bill, I would've thought would affect single constituency in the

:55:38. > :55:42.country. Resigned, yes, I think! I think every constituency could be

:55:43. > :55:47.affected by this Bill, which I think is a very sensible Bill, and I want

:55:48. > :55:51.also to pay tribute to my honourable friend for all the hard work and

:55:52. > :56:00.effort he has Putin to bring forward this debate on such an subject. I

:56:01. > :56:05.thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Would she not find it more

:56:06. > :56:09.surprising that there was not more broad-based interest in the house on

:56:10. > :56:15.2015, 90% of all stations, but 100% 2015, 90% of all stations, but 100%

:56:16. > :56:21.of all local stations, contacted and had talks with their local MP? Yes,

:56:22. > :56:26.I think it is disappointing. But it is a Friday and there are never that

:56:27. > :56:29.many members coming to Parliament on Friday, because it is traditionally

:56:30. > :56:39.a day we all spend an our constituencies.

:56:40. > :56:46.I would just like my honourable friend to reflect on the fact that

:56:47. > :56:51.Parliament is sitting. There is no such thing as a constituency Friday.

:56:52. > :56:55.Parliament is sitting and as far as I am concerned, members of

:56:56. > :56:58.Parliament, if at all possible, should be in Parliament. I know that

:56:59. > :57:05.my honourable friend is usually here on a Friday and I have do say I am

:57:06. > :57:09.guilty, as many others are, of using Friday as a day that I do normally

:57:10. > :57:13.spend in my constituency, but I am delighted to be here today to

:57:14. > :57:17.support my honourable friend for Torbay. Now, I have said that he has

:57:18. > :57:27.brought forward this debate on a very important subject and polite

:57:28. > :57:33.words are often said more out of custom but I cannot say them more

:57:34. > :57:36.genuinely today, as I know my honourable friend slept in

:57:37. > :57:40.Parliament last night to try to get this bill through, such was his

:57:41. > :57:43.dedication. As he pointed out afterwards, the reality of sleeping

:57:44. > :57:48.in the royal palace is far less glamorous than it sounds. I hope for

:57:49. > :57:52.his sake he has had a better nights sleep before the second reading of

:57:53. > :57:57.the bill today than he had when he tried to introduce it. I don't know

:57:58. > :58:01.exactly how he passed the hours while he waited to get his bill

:58:02. > :58:05.submitted, but it would have been extremely apt, given the bill's

:58:06. > :58:12.subject, if he had listened to digital radio to keep him company

:58:13. > :58:18.and pass away the time. Digital has and is in so many sectors across the

:58:19. > :58:26.UK so important for radio. In the third quarter of 2016, just over

:58:27. > :58:29.half of all radio listening, 45.5%, was on a digital platform. That

:58:30. > :58:36.figure will increase. The radio industry itself predicts that if

:58:37. > :58:40.current trends continue, the number will be 50% by the end of 2017. I

:58:41. > :58:47.would have thought that was a fairly Conservative view. Small-scale DAB,

:58:48. > :58:52.the kind of digital radio that this bill deals with, is especially

:58:53. > :58:59.important. Industry data shows 60% of UK homes today have at least one

:59:00. > :59:02.DAB radio and the DAB terrestrial platform accounts for around three

:59:03. > :59:08.quarters of all digital radio listening. These figures underline

:59:09. > :59:12.the importance of the area and make it more important than ever that

:59:13. > :59:18.small-scale ditched all radio becomes a viable option for as many

:59:19. > :59:23.stations as possible. I actually listened to radio Derby recently and

:59:24. > :59:26.the digital platform and it is a better signal than I got and I'm

:59:27. > :59:32.very pleased that they have been able to go on to that platform as

:59:33. > :59:35.well as continuing on FM. Unfortunately smaller radio stations

:59:36. > :59:40.currently face the major disadvantage when it comes to

:59:41. > :59:46.digital radio. At present, the cost and licensing scheme are not

:59:47. > :59:52.conducive to allowing small-scale radio services access to the digital

:59:53. > :59:59.radio network. As with anything, costs do vary but Digital

:00:00. > :00:07.specialists estimate the cost of a mono service is between 3500 and

:00:08. > :00:12.?5,000 per month. That could mean around ?60,000 per year. Needless to

:00:13. > :00:16.say, that is a pretty hefty sum for a small station to have do pay, with

:00:17. > :00:20.the consequence that these smaller stations that want to operate are

:00:21. > :00:25.priced out of the market. If we contrast that with Ofcom's estimates

:00:26. > :00:30.that using small-scale DAB would allow stations to access the digital

:00:31. > :00:34.market for just ?9,000, that is a huge difference and makes it much,

:00:35. > :00:41.much more accessible for small stations. Alongside the cost, the

:00:42. > :00:48.current climate creates a number of other key problems for smaller

:00:49. > :00:53.stations. Local DAB multiplexes exist and are used effectively by

:00:54. > :00:59.several stations, like, as I said, radio Derby, which sits under East

:01:00. > :01:06.Staffordshire as well as Derbyshire as a county. There size means they

:01:07. > :01:13.are not suitable for smaller stations that want to switch to DAB

:01:14. > :01:19.and can't. Additionally, stations could encounter problems in practice

:01:20. > :01:23.because there is not always sufficient space multiplexes for

:01:24. > :01:30.them. Providers know they face a fall in audience numbers and

:01:31. > :01:36.advertising revenue if DAB comes -- becomes the norm and they quite

:01:37. > :01:40.obviously want to change that. Ofcom says there is a major demand for

:01:41. > :01:48.change and that appropriate legislation will be followed up with

:01:49. > :02:05.action. In 2016, they state that there is a significant need for

:02:06. > :02:07.small-scale DAV -- DAB and things need to be more commercially

:02:08. > :02:15.sustainable. That statement comes after a trial in which 100 small

:02:16. > :02:22.stations were able to successfully broadcast on DAB for the first time.

:02:23. > :02:27.Those stations came from a wide range of backgrounds, providing an

:02:28. > :02:31.even more compelling case that more small stations could make a

:02:32. > :02:37.success... I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Talking about

:02:38. > :02:43.community radios, which sometimes have dwindling listeners, audience

:02:44. > :02:48.numbers, De she also think this might be an opportunity for print

:02:49. > :02:50.media to have the broadcast from their newsrooms, because we know

:02:51. > :02:59.what pressure they are under as well? Yes, I entirely agree with my

:03:00. > :03:03.honourable friend. For instance, locally, the Derby Telegraph is

:03:04. > :03:08.losing its readership, sadly, because it is a very good local

:03:09. > :03:13.paper, and I think the web is not exactly conducive to local papers

:03:14. > :03:18.because they have to do so much local advertising which intrudes on

:03:19. > :03:22.the media and the reading of the reports. I do believe that if they

:03:23. > :03:28.could broadcast as well, that would produce more competition and help

:03:29. > :03:35.other local media to get into the act. Would the honourable lady give

:03:36. > :03:41.way? Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way as well. A lot

:03:42. > :03:47.of local newspapers also now try to move very firmly into using much

:03:48. > :03:49.more activity online as well. Does my honourable friend not think that

:03:50. > :03:54.one of the things that could also happen is that not only could there

:03:55. > :04:00.be a community licence but it could also appear on the Internet, too?

:04:01. > :04:06.Yes, and I'm sure that would be the case. I thank my honourable friend

:04:07. > :04:11.for intervening at that point. The compelling case is that all small

:04:12. > :04:16.stations could make a success of using digital radio and the initial

:04:17. > :04:21.trial was actually so successful that it was extended for two years.

:04:22. > :04:25.Alongside test the viability and effectiveness done inside the UK,

:04:26. > :04:29.the international use of small-scale DAB offer another indication of the

:04:30. > :04:34.benefits of the expansion of this new technology. It has been used

:04:35. > :04:39.successfully abroad, with stations using it on air in both Switzerland

:04:40. > :04:44.and France. Given the established track record, we can see that this

:04:45. > :04:47.bill would be helpful. It would make a tangible difference for an

:04:48. > :04:52.estimated 450 stations who could take advantage of small-scale DAB

:04:53. > :04:55.and I think we heard from my honourable friend and from

:04:56. > :05:01.interventions that it was hospital radio -- even hospital radio could

:05:02. > :05:09.get in on this, widen their listenership, which I think is

:05:10. > :05:13.incredibly important. We have talked about hospital radio. Can I talk

:05:14. > :05:19.about radio in universities and colleges? Run Shaw College, which Mr

:05:20. > :05:23.Deputy Speaker you know very well, has a fantastic radio station which

:05:24. > :05:27.broadcasts at the college but of course it has so many links with

:05:28. > :05:30.local businesses and community enterprises that it could take

:05:31. > :05:37.advantage of this new technology and deep proposals in this bill. Do you

:05:38. > :05:42.not agree? Yes, of course, and of course that also means that it can

:05:43. > :05:46.be used as part of a degree to give the students the opportunity of real

:05:47. > :05:52.live practice on radio, which they would not normally have. It is

:05:53. > :05:55.something which I'm sure radio Derby and the University of Derby would

:05:56. > :06:00.embrace, because they have already embraced taking over the local

:06:01. > :06:05.theatre so that they can give students real live practice of

:06:06. > :06:09.producing plays, acting in place as a practical example, so that when

:06:10. > :06:13.they go into the world of work as people working in the local

:06:14. > :06:18.university radio would have when they went to university, -- when

:06:19. > :06:21.they were two interviews, they would have real life experience and we

:06:22. > :06:29.know that is really important in interviews as employers. I think it

:06:30. > :06:35.provides an opportunity to alter the current legislation and the

:06:36. > :06:41.framework for multiplex licensing as set out in the broadcasting act in

:06:42. > :06:44.1996, to introduce a lighter touch regulatory framework. Greater

:06:45. > :06:48.numbers of small radio stations could expand into a digital market

:06:49. > :06:52.which do not currently -- they do not currently have access to. I

:06:53. > :06:57.particularly commend how the proposed approach has adopted

:06:58. > :07:01.features of effective secondary legislation which has successfully

:07:02. > :07:09.modified primary legislation, but jazz community radio order 2004, by

:07:10. > :07:13.allowing the 1996 act to be modified rather than replaced. This slight

:07:14. > :07:17.but very important distinction will not only make things simpler, it

:07:18. > :07:22.will also allow for the creation of a new licensing regime which will

:07:23. > :07:28.take account of the needs of smaller stations. Whilst the use of

:07:29. > :07:32.small-scale DAB is relatively novel as a form of technology,

:07:33. > :07:37.implementing this bill fits into the Government's long-term radio

:07:38. > :07:42.strategy, published in 2014 in the Department for Culture, Media and

:07:43. > :07:47.Sport's Digital radio action plan. That plan recognise that radio is

:07:48. > :07:51.changing and that Government needs to respond to this by facilitating a

:07:52. > :07:57.digital friendly environment where 50% of all listening is digital. The

:07:58. > :08:00.paper also states that the transition to digital and the

:08:01. > :08:05.changes the Government makes should always be driven by the listener. I

:08:06. > :08:11.would add that to some extent the change must also be driven by the

:08:12. > :08:15.consent of radio station providers themselves. It is clear from Ofcom

:08:16. > :08:20.trials that smaller stations really do want to access the digital market

:08:21. > :08:26.and we must not ignore the views. As well as setting out its digital

:08:27. > :08:30.criteria, the paper stresses the major contribution that radio makes

:08:31. > :08:37.to the UK, outlining that 90% of the adult population choose into eggs in

:08:38. > :08:42.excess of 1 billion listening hours a week. That allows them exposure to

:08:43. > :08:46.an endless variety of cultural topics and the chance to listen to a

:08:47. > :08:54.myriad of fantastic music genres. From acid jazz to cite Deco. I'm not

:08:55. > :08:58.sure if I have pronounced that right, but I probably haven't! I

:08:59. > :09:06.must admit that when I was probing the Internet rather in-depth in

:09:07. > :09:14.order to find a musical genre beginning with said, it was

:09:15. > :09:23.difficult, I was very pleased to find the music of which I speak. The

:09:24. > :09:29.fact this legislation could lead to economic growth and job creation

:09:30. > :09:32.cannot be dismissed. If we have so many more digital stations, not only

:09:33. > :09:38.will it give real value to the experience of this young people, as

:09:39. > :09:44.I presume it will be mainly young people who take it up, with that

:09:45. > :09:47.experience they can then go on to bigger, brighter things in the

:09:48. > :09:52.larger broadcasting corporations, whether they are the BBC or

:09:53. > :09:57.commercial operations. That cannot be dismissed. It will create many

:09:58. > :10:07.jobs. At the moment, the entire radio sector is worth an estimated

:10:08. > :10:11.?1.2 billion and employs 17,000 people. Making sure that legislation

:10:12. > :10:15.which affects the sector is helpful and up to date is a very important

:10:16. > :10:18.responsibility and one that should encourage us to introduce this bill

:10:19. > :10:23.today and I am sure the Minister will have many of these aspects in

:10:24. > :10:27.mind when he responds later. I therefore once again congratulate my

:10:28. > :10:32.honourable friend for introducing this bill and urged the House to

:10:33. > :10:36.support its second reading today. Let us make sure that his sleepless

:10:37. > :10:44.nights were definitely worth it. Absolutely. David Nuttall. It is a

:10:45. > :10:51.great pleasure as always to follow my honourable friend, the Member for

:10:52. > :10:54.Mid Derbyshire. I want to start this morning by congratulating my

:10:55. > :11:02.honourable friend, the Member for Torbay, for the very short way in

:11:03. > :11:06.which he introduced this debate on what is quite a technical subject.

:11:07. > :11:10.It has the capacity to be quite a dry subject and he brought it to

:11:11. > :11:15.life this morning in a very entertaining way. That is whilst

:11:16. > :11:25.dealing with all the technical aspects in a very confident manner.

:11:26. > :11:31.This bill is one which is ideally suited, I would venture to suggest,

:11:32. > :11:38.for the private members Bill procedure. It does not seem to

:11:39. > :11:49.impose any cost on the taxpayer and it deals with a relatively narrow

:11:50. > :11:52.area of the law. One which has the bill seeking to do with a problem

:11:53. > :11:57.which has arisen that could not have been foreseen at the time of the

:11:58. > :12:02.original legislation being drawn up because of the developments in

:12:03. > :12:08.technology and the advances in software and the production in the

:12:09. > :12:09.price of the equipment, really, as well, which is something I will come

:12:10. > :12:21.onto. All this has left a gap in the

:12:22. > :12:27.legislation, which this Bill seeks to fill. I will give way. I am

:12:28. > :12:30.grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way. Does he not think the

:12:31. > :12:38.other opportunity for this legislation would not have been

:12:39. > :12:45.through the Digital Economy Bill? I am grateful to have for that

:12:46. > :12:52.intervention. It would seem that the nature of this Bill could have been

:12:53. > :12:59.included in the Digital Economy Bill. Maybe there Minister, when he

:13:00. > :13:06.addresses us, we'll be able to explain why it wasn't, given that it

:13:07. > :13:12.is undoubtedly an area which needs addressing. I should say at the

:13:13. > :13:17.outset that I wish to support the Bill, I have no wish to scupper it.

:13:18. > :13:24.I do have concerns about the precise detail, which I will come onto. But

:13:25. > :13:37.in broad principle, I agree that this Bill is needed. Will he agreed

:13:38. > :13:41.with me that the borders of this particular aspect of the law being

:13:42. > :13:45.dealt with through the Private members Bill Root, rather than being

:13:46. > :13:49.part of the government Digital economy Bill, is that it makes it

:13:50. > :14:01.clear it's about resolving this issue for community radio stations,

:14:02. > :14:04.rather than it being linked to broadcasting and media regulation?

:14:05. > :14:10.My own view is it could have been dealt with without any undue

:14:11. > :14:16.side-effects in the Digital Economy Bill. But we are where we are and we

:14:17. > :14:20.do have this separate Bill. Perhaps we will jump onto a point that I was

:14:21. > :14:28.going to make any way, which is that this Bill of itself is, we might

:14:29. > :14:37.politely called, and enabling Bill. It will be of no benefit to anyone

:14:38. > :14:46.unless it is driven for words after it becomes an act, after it features

:14:47. > :14:51.the statute book. By the Minister, who I am sure will want to take

:14:52. > :14:57.advantage of the powers, by making an order and doing something about

:14:58. > :15:02.it. The Bill itself would help anybody, it's an enabling Bill. For

:15:03. > :15:11.it to be of any use at all to man or beast, it needs the Minister and his

:15:12. > :15:17.team and department to bring the appropriate order as soon as

:15:18. > :15:21.possible, I hope, if this Bill does reach the statute book, to cover all

:15:22. > :15:28.the various aspects that are set out in clause one. And to give those

:15:29. > :15:37.powers to off com, so that they can set about licensing new

:15:38. > :15:42.broadcasters, so that the broadcasters can enjoy what some of

:15:43. > :15:48.those who have taken part in the trials have already benefited form.

:15:49. > :15:58.Basically, this Bill is about making it easier to broadcast digital

:15:59. > :16:06.radio, at a time, at the time when the original act was passed, it was

:16:07. > :16:11.something that was very new, and it was only thought possible that it

:16:12. > :16:16.could be dealt with on a large-scale, on the national and

:16:17. > :16:24.countywide scale. But since that act was passed, it has become possible

:16:25. > :16:31.now, through advances in technology, or smaller scale multiplexes to

:16:32. > :16:35.operate and to provide opportunities for community radio stations and

:16:36. > :16:43.smaller scale commercial stations to operate. I should declare an

:16:44. > :16:50.interest, in that I am a very avid user of my digital radio. In fact, I

:16:51. > :16:54.carry it with me everywhere. It is at this very moment in my coat

:16:55. > :17:02.pocket and I very rarely go anywhere without my digital radio. We are not

:17:03. > :17:06.allowed to use props, as the honourable gentleman knows, but it

:17:07. > :17:12.is a wonderful thing. It's my second one, because the first one broke

:17:13. > :17:19.down. I wonder if he would give way on that note. I wonder if he might

:17:20. > :17:23.share with us what sort of radio stations he listens to and whether

:17:24. > :17:30.any local community stations are among his particular favourites? Al

:17:31. > :17:36.be honest, it's usually Radio 4 radio five radio five Sports Extra,

:17:37. > :17:45.particularly when it's carrying the cricket commentary. I'll certainly

:17:46. > :17:49.give way to the cat back minister. -- Minister. Does he agree that many

:17:50. > :17:52.people carry radios with them, particularly on a Friday so that

:17:53. > :18:02.they can listen to his speeches in parliaments? I'm sure that's not the

:18:03. > :18:05.case! Of course, my honourable friend in the previous intervention

:18:06. > :18:10.raised the question as to whether or not I use it to listen to community

:18:11. > :18:18.radio stations, but of course, there are very few of those operating. And

:18:19. > :18:26.this Bill, if it reaches the statute book and is then an act and is

:18:27. > :18:30.followed up by an order, and some activity from community radio

:18:31. > :18:34.stations, it will enable better be even more stations on my Little

:18:35. > :18:42.radio than there are already. There are already plenty on there. I also

:18:43. > :18:47.made sure that my last car, when I bought it a few years ago, Hadi

:18:48. > :18:51.Digital radio in it. And is now virtually all cars have it as

:18:52. > :18:58.standard. Then it was an option that you had to pay a little bit extra if

:18:59. > :19:03.you wanted a digital radio, mainly because Test Match Special was no

:19:04. > :19:12.longer broadcast on longwave and in order to reach it, you had to have

:19:13. > :19:19.radio five Sports Extra. Would he not agree with me that this is one

:19:20. > :19:24.of the biggest changes since Parliament last substantive movement

:19:25. > :19:30.to broadcast regulations, is the spread of DAB radio into the car. I

:19:31. > :19:36.was an early adopter back in 2003, I got the digital radio I have at

:19:37. > :19:40.home, but seeing it in most new cars on the market, it creates the need

:19:41. > :19:46.for community radio stations to be there as well as the larger

:19:47. > :19:49.stations. He is absolutely right. There has been an enormous increase

:19:50. > :19:56.in the use of digital radio in the past few years. And while I fully

:19:57. > :20:05.understand the concerns of those who operate on the FM frequencies, it

:20:06. > :20:10.seems to be that inexorably, we will be moving towards a situation, just

:20:11. > :20:16.as we have a television, where radio will operate in a Digital space in

:20:17. > :20:20.years to come. As members will be aware, it has been in the news this

:20:21. > :20:27.week that it has been touched on earlier, that Norway is planning is

:20:28. > :20:34.to become the first nation to move its radio stations onto an entirely

:20:35. > :20:37.digital platform, or that the next few months. It will take many years

:20:38. > :20:41.and I hope we proceed very cautiously, because I am very

:20:42. > :20:43.conscious that there will particularly be elderly people who

:20:44. > :20:49.don't have access to modern equipment. But we managed it with

:20:50. > :20:55.television, and it seems to me that it wouldn't be on the wit of man for

:20:56. > :21:00.us to be able to manage it in due course of the radio. But it will

:21:01. > :21:08.need us to proceed very carefully and to make sure that all the

:21:09. > :21:14.technical research is properly done. To be fair, of column are on with

:21:15. > :21:20.this and it's something that if there's time, I will touch on

:21:21. > :21:29.briefly. That the report that was issued last year by off,

:21:30. > :21:33.specifically refers to the feasibility of being able to

:21:34. > :21:39.accommodate existing commercial and community stations, which currently

:21:40. > :21:53.transmit on analogue, onto DAB. One concern I do have about the Bill is

:21:54. > :22:00.clause one, subsection four, small sea, which requires, states that but

:22:01. > :22:07.it would require small scale multiplexes services to be provided

:22:08. > :22:10.on a non-commercial basis. I see no reason for this, personally, I see

:22:11. > :22:18.no reason why we should try and restrict it to non-commercial

:22:19. > :22:27.services, as my honourable friend said in his opening speech. The

:22:28. > :22:33.costs of moving straight onto the larger multiplexes could be very

:22:34. > :22:40.prohibitive for any start-up operation, and what I want to do is

:22:41. > :22:47.to see more competition and to see the costs of entry reduced, so that

:22:48. > :22:53.the barriers to entry are as low as possible. And it seems to me that

:22:54. > :22:57.restricting this and including a reference to a non-commercial only

:22:58. > :23:02.is something which is not necessarily, and something which, if

:23:03. > :23:11.this Bill proceeds, I will be looking at further. I thank the

:23:12. > :23:23.honourable member for briefly giving way. The section in relation to it

:23:24. > :23:27.says, it may, in particular. While it alludes that there may be a

:23:28. > :23:35.requirement that service is provided on a non-commercial basis, that is

:23:36. > :23:40.not a must. I except that, and in fact, in making that intervention,

:23:41. > :23:44.my honourable friend draws attention to another point which I was going

:23:45. > :23:50.to make about the Bill, and that is that in many ways, it raises more

:23:51. > :23:58.questions than it answers. Because of the use of language, it doesn't

:23:59. > :24:04.make it clear what is going to happen. I hope when we hear from the

:24:05. > :24:09.Minister, he may give us a more clarity about exactly how open we

:24:10. > :24:12.are going to see this play out, because there are competing

:24:13. > :24:18.interests, I can understand that there will be the commercial

:24:19. > :24:23.interests that the larger operators will want to see it made easier for

:24:24. > :24:29.new competitors to join the market. But I don't see that as any reason

:24:30. > :24:33.not to allow new entrants to the market. More competition would be a

:24:34. > :24:39.good thing for them. But I particularly support this Bill

:24:40. > :24:47.because I want to see my all area be able to benefit from possibly having

:24:48. > :24:53.its own commercial or non-commercial radio station, a community station.

:24:54. > :25:02.There is already, order has been in the past, operating in the town,

:25:03. > :25:08.something called Project 29 Radio, which I have appeared on a

:25:09. > :25:13.small-scale station, operating from the centre of the town, but the

:25:14. > :25:20.small staff working on a volunteer basis, running community programmes.

:25:21. > :25:32.It's the sort of small-scale community radio station that I see

:25:33. > :25:38.being able to benefit from the future, if this Bill goes ahead, and

:25:39. > :25:43.that it is made easier for small operators to be given a digital

:25:44. > :25:49.licence, and for them to be able to operate with modern equipment, which

:25:50. > :25:56.by definition, will be the latest available, because it will be new as

:25:57. > :26:01.up-to-date, broadcasting over the relatively small area, smaller than,

:26:02. > :26:12.for example, the whole of Greater Manchester or the whole of

:26:13. > :26:17.Lancashire. I'm very conscious of the fact that there are many members

:26:18. > :26:21.who have given time to this debate this morning, so I don't want to

:26:22. > :26:50.extend my remarks and Julie. In conclusion, I would want to refer

:26:51. > :27:02.to the trials allowed last year by Ofcom. My honourable friend touched

:27:03. > :27:06.on these in his remarks. There were three different types of trial

:27:07. > :27:16.allowed. They covered different sorts of equipment. Without going

:27:17. > :27:26.into detail, they raised from 9000 as the cheapest to ?17,000. It gives

:27:27. > :27:34.some idea of the cost of the equipment that was involved.

:27:35. > :27:40.Different licensees were given different equipment to try it out,

:27:41. > :27:54.to see how efficiently it would operate. The results are all set out

:27:55. > :28:00.in the Ofcom report. It is a lengthy document and will take some time to

:28:01. > :28:09.read through. It is worth it for those interested to study that

:28:10. > :28:17.document because it does set out the detail of the nature of the

:28:18. > :28:28.equipment and how successful it was. More importantly, perhaps, the

:28:29. > :28:30.report concluded at the end of the report that the typical scope for

:28:31. > :28:47.the wider roll-out of the DAB. Although we can solve the

:28:48. > :28:57.problem of the legislative framework and how we create a licensing

:28:58. > :29:10.regime, there is a problem around the frequency blocks on which DAB

:29:11. > :29:22.operates. They are fixed, there is not much we can do about what is

:29:23. > :29:33.there. They currently use VHF band three blocks. It is these

:29:34. > :29:42.frequencies which provide the spectrum to support the existing

:29:43. > :29:54.multiplexes and the local commercial multiplexes. When Ofcom looked at

:29:55. > :30:03.small-scale DAB trials, it was announced that the first entry would

:30:04. > :30:06.be required because DAB receivers could also be used for lower free

:30:07. > :30:23.causes than are available in the UK. They also carried out an initial

:30:24. > :30:30.study as to whether it would be technically feasible to develop a

:30:31. > :30:39.future platform that might provide an opportunity for those smaller

:30:40. > :30:49.community, commercial stations which currently transmit only one analogue

:30:50. > :30:53.radio to move to DAB. There is a chance to transfer everything onto

:30:54. > :30:59.DAB. We need those we can see is available to be able to do it. Ofcom

:31:00. > :31:10.conclude that in most areas, it should be technically possible to

:31:11. > :31:15.develop the frequency allowance for small-scale DAB. They do say that

:31:16. > :31:21.more detailed planning and optimisation will be required to

:31:22. > :31:28.develop the frequency plan which could be put into practice. I will

:31:29. > :31:34.certainly give way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:31:35. > :31:42.Would he agree that the point of this Bill before us today is about

:31:43. > :31:54.that, to enable smaller multiplexers to set up and produce a death across

:31:55. > :32:04.the country? I would agree. That is what this Bill is seeking to do. As

:32:05. > :32:14.I mentioned earlier, the Bill itself will not achieve that. It will need

:32:15. > :32:21.action from the Department. Hopefully the Minister in his

:32:22. > :32:28.remarks will give the House the insurance that his Department will

:32:29. > :32:36.work speedily in bringing this forward. With that, I will conclude

:32:37. > :32:52.my remarks and wish this Bill well this morning.

:32:53. > :33:03.I'd like to begin by congratulating my noble friend for bringing this

:33:04. > :33:10.Bill. In all other research that he's done, it seems like quite a

:33:11. > :33:18.completed Bill. It is very technical. Many of us who don't have

:33:19. > :33:25.an engineering or science background are discussing this matter. We're

:33:26. > :33:31.always running to catch up. I'm absolutely delighted that we have

:33:32. > :33:41.this Bill this morning because we are going some way to anticipating

:33:42. > :33:47.the future. I've got an admission to make, I am an absolute radio nut.

:33:48. > :34:01.There have been periods in my life, sometimes years and years, where I

:34:02. > :34:07.have always had a radio. The only image voices I heard apart from a

:34:08. > :34:22.family work on short wave weightier. -- short wave radio. I'm now a

:34:23. > :34:28.convert to digital. I know we have been discussing this morning about

:34:29. > :34:38.the transfer from FM and the other frequencies. This can be somewhat

:34:39. > :34:46.controversial. Norway is due this week to go completely to DAB. We

:34:47. > :34:51.have to accept, and I know that my honourable friend has said this is

:34:52. > :34:57.not about switching off other frequencies. My other honourable

:34:58. > :35:04.friend mentioned that there might actually be technical difficulties

:35:05. > :35:12.that. I will happily give way. She is or was very generous. On the

:35:13. > :35:16.point of the switchover, does she feel that that isn't opportunity for

:35:17. > :35:20.other countries to watch what Norway are doing, to watch and learn as we

:35:21. > :35:28.take our radio forward into the future. That is an excellent point.

:35:29. > :35:33.There are huge geographical and I'm a graphic differences between Norway

:35:34. > :35:44.and us. But we should be watching and learning to see what happens. Is

:35:45. > :35:58.the reason why Norway moving away from analogue forms is they do not

:35:59. > :36:11.have test match special. Probably! I wouldn't dare to make any comment.

:36:12. > :36:19.So the... I would give way, and then make some progress. The game of

:36:20. > :36:23.cricket is a perfect example of the way we are approaching this whole

:36:24. > :36:29.particular situation, we are quite happy to listen on Radio 2 a match

:36:30. > :36:34.that will take five days to flow out its course and similarly it is good

:36:35. > :36:50.that we are approaching change from analogue to digital as a slow and

:36:51. > :36:59.measured way. I would agree... There is a balance, isn't there? We have

:37:00. > :37:11.to do it in an revolution reword a. -- revolutionary way. There is a

:37:12. > :37:19.great barrier that exists at the moment. In this Bill, we have seen

:37:20. > :37:26.the costs for smoking in the radio is prohibitive. Different figures

:37:27. > :37:38.have been raised. Looking at non-London multiplexes, around ?3500

:37:39. > :37:48.a month. That is too high for community radio TV racing. -- to be

:37:49. > :37:52.raising. There are opportunities it can offer to businesses and the

:37:53. > :37:59.communities. In the day and age when we can have groups and entrepreneurs

:38:00. > :38:05.setting up from their laptops and mobile phones, it is to be affecting

:38:06. > :38:13.where we're going in other spheres of life. Ideally, you want to focus

:38:14. > :38:16.on community radio. We had woken about community radio in our own

:38:17. > :38:26.constituencies. Honourable members have said to me, we are lucky that

:38:27. > :38:39.we do have a radio station called Festival Radio. Mr dippy speaker

:38:40. > :38:43.knows because his seat you to take in Leyland, the Leyland Festival is

:38:44. > :38:54.the absolute highlight of Leyland life. It has had a long history of

:38:55. > :38:59.Festival making, tanks, buses, the Pope Mobil. All of these things are

:39:00. > :39:08.stored in the day come easy in Leyland. -- in the vehicle Museum.

:39:09. > :39:13.The festival is a joyous occasion when we can make the most of what is

:39:14. > :39:18.fantastic about Leyland and its heritage. Ireland are watching the

:39:19. > :39:27.festival as a little girl. I now have the honour and pleasure... Back

:39:28. > :39:33.in 2015, a group of local people came together and they wanted to

:39:34. > :39:53.celebrate this. They wanted a moment and focus for this. Between April

:39:54. > :40:07.and June 2015. The station came to FM in 2015. For other honourable

:40:08. > :40:14.members, their -- they may hate never have heard of Farrington and

:40:15. > :40:22.Moss side. We have these countywide multiplexes. There are sometimes

:40:23. > :40:27.stories in Lancaster or in other parts which I cannot identify with.

:40:28. > :40:34.These hyper local networks really appeal to people. There is community

:40:35. > :40:38.involvement and it brought together people across generations and

:40:39. > :40:44.backgrounds. This is the point I want to make in this speech. It

:40:45. > :40:56.develop transferable skills. As my honourable friend mentioned, it is a

:40:57. > :41:02.training ground. During the making of Festival radio, they developed

:41:03. > :41:11.transferable skills such as marketing and production. They learn

:41:12. > :41:17.from the other people. People from all different backgrounds. It was

:41:18. > :41:27.peer-to-peer learning. It was a partnership. Ron Shaw College has

:41:28. > :41:30.its own excellent radio station and other committee groups as well. It

:41:31. > :41:35.is an opportunity for businesses to talk and for artists and performers

:41:36. > :41:41.to have proper on-air experience in broadcast.

:41:42. > :41:48.I know my first ever radio experience was as a candidate in the

:41:49. > :41:52.2010 election and I was interviewed by De Vreede heel. I am sure the

:41:53. > :41:59.only person listening was my agent and my grandma, but was still a

:42:00. > :42:05.great experience for me. These interview opportunities and all of

:42:06. > :42:09.this was a really fantastic sense of community cohesion that grew up

:42:10. > :42:17.outside of Leland Festival radio. I am very happy to give way. She has

:42:18. > :42:20.been very generous this morning, thank you. The honourable lady

:42:21. > :42:28.touches on the value of community radio and I know that she is a great

:42:29. > :42:32.advocate for tackling isolation. We cheer agree with me that community

:42:33. > :42:38.radio is an excellent means of reaching into some of the most

:42:39. > :42:41.vulnerable and isolated members of our communities? My honourable

:42:42. > :42:46.friend anticipate the next part of my speech. It's almost as though she

:42:47. > :42:51.had seen it in the tearoom, which she has not. I'm buried glad that

:42:52. > :42:54.the point I'm making industries about isolation and loneliness are

:42:55. > :43:00.getting through. That's exactly the point I would like to make next.

:43:01. > :43:05.Just to give a slight conclusion on Leland Festival radio and its

:43:06. > :43:09.excellent work, although they are carrying on broadcasting breakfast

:43:10. > :43:18.programmes with Keith Bradshaw as the presenter, it's very limited.

:43:19. > :43:23.The aim for the group is to be a permanent community Radio 4 on

:43:24. > :43:27.Leland firing ten and Moss side. I now want to go on to the point that

:43:28. > :43:33.my honourable friend made, because I believe that hyper local radio

:43:34. > :43:37.really does have a role in combating loneliness and isolation. Members

:43:38. > :43:41.will know, because I had been raising it that along with the

:43:42. > :43:48.honourable lady the member from Leeds West, she and I are carrying

:43:49. > :43:52.on the work was started by a late colleague Jo Cox. Harriet loneliness

:43:53. > :44:01.commission will be launched in Speaker 's house on Tuesday the 21st

:44:02. > :44:04.of January. My honourable friend the member for Bury North says he always

:44:05. > :44:09.has his read your with him and I think we recognise that radio is a

:44:10. > :44:14.very intimate medium. It really can speak to us and I know from friends

:44:15. > :44:19.and family who have suffered and I know I when I have been very lonely

:44:20. > :44:27.in my life, I have had the radio on. It makes us feel a bit safer and as

:44:28. > :44:32.though we have other people there. Really valid points about radio as a

:44:33. > :44:37.friend, certainly in the night. I know that people turn to the radio

:44:38. > :44:42.the wake-up and switch it on. But also I know that many local radio

:44:43. > :44:47.stations have regulars that phone in and many of these are lonely and

:44:48. > :44:51.individual people that are finding some relationship building with the

:44:52. > :44:56.radio station and they serve an excellent purpose progress. My

:44:57. > :45:00.honourable friend with a history and broadcasting nose is only too well.

:45:01. > :45:04.We talk about local radio. It has such an important role in the

:45:05. > :45:11.community and is hyper local radio, I think it already does that. The

:45:12. > :45:19.provisions in this Bill will allow a flourishing of hyper local radio,

:45:20. > :45:24.because the point I am talking about loneliness and isolation, the point

:45:25. > :45:28.is that mediums of technology are useful only if they actually lead to

:45:29. > :45:33.face-to-face context, because as human beings we need the contact of

:45:34. > :45:37.others just as much as we need food and water. This is the point of it.

:45:38. > :45:42.It's not just about Facebook and Twitter, which we all talk about.

:45:43. > :45:48.Radio has to have that, we need to be able to connect to people. If you

:45:49. > :45:53.have a radio station broadcasting to a feud thousand people, those worked

:45:54. > :45:59.risk of being very lonely and isolated, the old, the infirm,

:46:00. > :46:04.people suffering from mental health problems, disabled, and they cannot

:46:05. > :46:06.travel very far, the hearing about community events and businesses

:46:07. > :46:10.which are very close to them, then it will be able to get to them and

:46:11. > :46:19.that will be great advantage of that. There really is much to plot

:46:20. > :46:24.in this Bill. I have some questions which I hope the minister will

:46:25. > :46:31.respond to in the way of, how do these things work in practice? In

:46:32. > :46:35.terms of, I know they are being attached to high buildings, because

:46:36. > :46:40.my honourable friend keeps talking about high buildings, many of us

:46:41. > :46:48.don't have high buildings in our constituencies. The other thing and

:46:49. > :46:50.forgive me if I have missed something, but often when new things

:46:51. > :46:56.are picked up any time, there are often worries about it. I do think

:46:57. > :47:04.this Bill has such great potential to expand community radio, which

:47:05. > :47:08.plays such an important role in helping to Nitties to build together

:47:09. > :47:13.and to foster good relationships. I am thinking again as I have

:47:14. > :47:16.mentioned, the things about Leland Festival radio which have really

:47:17. > :47:20.done sterling work in our team in Italy and I hope that this Bill

:47:21. > :47:28.would give it just those opportunities to fulfil a stream of

:47:29. > :47:31.being a full-time radio station. Mr Deputy Speaker, it's an absolute

:47:32. > :47:37.pleasure to follow on from my honourable friend and also I would

:47:38. > :47:42.like to congratulate my honourable friend from Torbay for securing a

:47:43. > :47:50.spot in the Chamber. I have to declare an interest, I used to write

:47:51. > :47:54.songs in the 1980s. Which always cheers at the colleagues on my side

:47:55. > :48:02.of the bench. This is a very serious issue that we are discussing today,

:48:03. > :48:08.because... I shall give Ray to my honourable friend. Is my honourable

:48:09. > :48:17.friend is still getting royalties from the 80s? Not correct that would

:48:18. > :48:20.be telling. If you're going to name a question like that, you have to

:48:21. > :48:27.name the chin that you're referring to. Digital radio. As this Bill

:48:28. > :48:34.covers, affects areas of the UK that should really be honed in on from a

:48:35. > :48:43.very, very long time ago. Before I alluded to my honourable friend from

:48:44. > :48:50.Torbay about the previous Secretary of State for culture media and

:48:51. > :48:56.sport, when he had an ambition to have digital radio take over from

:48:57. > :49:03.analogue. As my honourable friend stated, this would be an optional

:49:04. > :49:05.issue or a request from the broadcasting industry, but it is

:49:06. > :49:14.something that must be taken seriously. If you think in my area,

:49:15. > :49:20.we have a feud good radio stations in the area, but we do have the baby

:49:21. > :49:24.radio, which on its website states there is no solution for them to

:49:25. > :49:29.have digital radio at this moment in time, yet they do cover areas which

:49:30. > :49:33.are quite low-lying in my constituency, leading all the way up

:49:34. > :49:40.into the Lake District and all the way touching on the Scottish

:49:41. > :49:46.Borders. It does a new website that if you want to find a coverage area,

:49:47. > :49:50.click on the application. However, I do think with this option that my

:49:51. > :49:56.honourable friend has put forward for the broadcasting industry to

:49:57. > :50:00.consider, this would hope my local radio station in measurable way and

:50:01. > :50:04.help the people in those communities to be kept in touch with what is

:50:05. > :50:09.actually going on around them. Last year, about 12 months ago, we were

:50:10. > :50:13.hit with the most horrendous floods we've ever seen. There was a power

:50:14. > :50:23.cut. The only lifeline that we did have in the whole area as to what

:50:24. > :50:28.was going on was our local B radio. I thank my honourable friend

:50:29. > :50:32.forgiving way. I would like to reiterate today of all days how

:50:33. > :50:37.important that last point is, because we have along the east coast

:50:38. > :50:42.and particularly in Suffolk a real challenge today with the possibility

:50:43. > :50:45.of flooding and as he says and as the Right honourable friend for

:50:46. > :50:50.purple Valley has often said, when flooding comes, there is not much

:50:51. > :50:53.warning. To have community radio is enabled to give more information to

:50:54. > :51:00.the public is certainly a good thing, is it not? I do agree and I

:51:01. > :51:04.do think my honourable friend for that very helpful intervention,

:51:05. > :51:09.because that leads onto what I'm about to speak about next. What

:51:10. > :51:12.happened was they also did as well and they were running a whole

:51:13. > :51:19.operation of a laptop on the first floor. As my honourable friend did

:51:20. > :51:27.allude to in his speech, laptops can come in very handy for this kind of

:51:28. > :51:32.broadcasting. What are a problem at this moment in time, which has been

:51:33. > :51:38.highlighted by my right honourable friend, is that the cost of this

:51:39. > :51:42.could be prohibited, because it is quite costly to get these kinds of

:51:43. > :51:50.licences, however, with demand, costs can be drives down. I hope

:51:51. > :51:56.that the Minister will look on this proposal favourably, because we must

:51:57. > :52:05.go forward with progression. If we don't, it is at our cost. We have

:52:06. > :52:10.had the radio industry is subject to certain problems over the years, not

:52:11. > :52:14.least not having this helped out in the first place. If you think about

:52:15. > :52:23.what happened to my local radio station, if they had had digital

:52:24. > :52:27.radio, the aerial areas that they broadcast to would have been better

:52:28. > :52:32.informed as to what was actually going on with their localities. It

:52:33. > :52:37.wasn't just my constituency that was affected, it was a constituency next

:52:38. > :52:43.order of Lancaster. Also constituencies further up into

:52:44. > :52:49.Carlisle. I do know that I had a meeting during these floods with the

:52:50. > :52:53.Minister Stewart. Not many people knew that the minister was actually

:52:54. > :52:59.running around the vicinity trying to sort out the problems and he was

:53:00. > :53:02.working very hard. Purely and simply, because the communications

:53:03. > :53:06.broke down in the area and he had a power cut in my vicinity that lasted

:53:07. > :53:11.nearly two days. You can see, radio is a lifeline for these communities

:53:12. > :53:16.and we should be looking to enhance the industry and not curtail it. I

:53:17. > :53:21.do think that this measure that my honourable friend has done today is

:53:22. > :53:26.a very welcome measure indeed. I do think that the larger broadcasters

:53:27. > :53:32.such as the BBC, would also welcome this, because it would actually

:53:33. > :53:36.drive the cost down as well. All the radio stations, I hope if they are

:53:37. > :53:40.listening to this speech, I'm not being more favourable to one and the

:53:41. > :53:46.other and I hope that have mentioned you all. I must a plug in for it

:53:47. > :53:55.Beyond Radio. I'm sure they will be losing that in their jingles.

:53:56. > :54:01.Digital radio is the future and it is for the right reason that the

:54:02. > :54:04.honourable member for Ali when he was in the Secretary of State, he

:54:05. > :54:11.wanted to push forward this particular project, but as yet we

:54:12. > :54:17.have yet to see it. I would love to give way to my honourable friend. Q

:54:18. > :54:20.refers to what the right Honourable member suggested at the time I think

:54:21. > :54:25.when he was the Cabinet minister responsible for the area of policy.

:54:26. > :54:30.Whilst this is not about that specific way, if ever there was the

:54:31. > :54:35.move to digital, we need to make sure all three layers of radio are

:54:36. > :54:44.represented. National, community, local. Might I pay homage to my

:54:45. > :54:48.right honourable friend for researching this Bill thoroughly and

:54:49. > :54:53.speaking for one hour without notes on this particular issue. I was in

:54:54. > :54:57.the music industry once, it pains me to say I didn't know half of what my

:54:58. > :55:00.honourable friend was saying. However, it's a big help to the

:55:01. > :55:06.industry as a whole and ensure that they would welcome what he is trying

:55:07. > :55:14.to do. With that, Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for your time.

:55:15. > :55:23.Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm delighted to follow my honourable friend and it's

:55:24. > :55:27.amazing what we discover about her colleagues during these debates and

:55:28. > :55:32.I'm intrigued to find out some of those songs that have been written

:55:33. > :55:37.by my honourable friend. Perhaps he might share that with those later.

:55:38. > :55:40.Having spent very much of my life as a broadcaster and journalist with

:55:41. > :55:45.many years involvement in radio stations of every kind, from

:55:46. > :55:51.community to local to commercial and BBC national radio, I'm really

:55:52. > :55:55.delighted to support my honourable friend from Torbay in bringing this

:55:56. > :55:58.Bill and I congratulate him for bringing it forward, for all the

:55:59. > :56:03.work that he has done and in particular for the very clear case

:56:04. > :56:07.that he is made today. I think even those who don't understand very much

:56:08. > :56:12.about the technicalities, even I don't understand a lot of those, he

:56:13. > :56:15.has made it very clear. I must reiterate the comments made from my

:56:16. > :56:20.right honourable friend that it is disappointing that the benches are

:56:21. > :56:23.so empty on the Opposition side, particularly amongst our Scottish

:56:24. > :56:27.colleagues, because I do believe that if we can bring this Bill

:56:28. > :56:30.forward, it will help those of every mode areas where it is quite

:56:31. > :56:40.difficult to get the correct signals. At the Welsh, I agree.

:56:41. > :56:47.Sorry, the Welsh are here. Apologies, said. A Welsh present is

:56:48. > :56:49.here. You are well represented compared to a Scottish colleagues. I

:56:50. > :57:04.take that back. I'm a keen supporter of local media

:57:05. > :57:13.including newspapers. That includes local radio stations. Anything that

:57:14. > :57:22.can be done must be applauded. I understand that that will friend, I

:57:23. > :57:31.am a fanatical radio nut. I go everywhere with my radio. We have a

:57:32. > :57:38.radio in almost every room! You might think that is a bit sad. I

:57:39. > :57:52.will give way. I thank a forgiving way. One of the affections I would

:57:53. > :57:55.make is that I listened to the radio on my way from the constituency,

:57:56. > :58:07.because I want to listen to the cricket and to the cat macro

:58:08. > :58:15.archers. -- Archers. I could not be without my radio because of the

:58:16. > :58:26.Archers. I listen to the same episode multiple times a day! I am a

:58:27. > :58:32.big local radio fan as well. Like my honourable friend, as soon as I get

:58:33. > :58:37.back to my constituency in my car, I switch on the local radio so I can

:58:38. > :58:47.catch up instantly and what the news is there. Of course, the way we now

:58:48. > :58:55.listen to radio is changing. TV has ordered one through a big

:58:56. > :59:11.transition, and now so is radio. Statistics show that many households

:59:12. > :59:19.in the UK already own a DAB radio. This year, terribly exciting, I got

:59:20. > :59:48.a DAV system. -- DAB system. I have to put my glasses on to get

:59:49. > :59:52.to the touch button thing. DAB systems are increasingly important

:59:53. > :00:01.as features in cars. That is obviously where I listen to my local

:00:02. > :00:06.radio a lot. In this new DAB world, I must reiterate for the

:00:07. > :00:19.uninitiated, we're not talking about the dap fish. Dab are a wonderful

:00:20. > :00:22.fish that are great to feed children and are very cheap. We are not

:00:23. > :00:32.talking about them, we're talking about radio. I want to explain that

:00:33. > :00:38.small radio stations are really important. This Bill will help them

:00:39. > :00:42.have a better future, and for the better under resourced stations to

:00:43. > :00:47.have a better future. They offer a very high delocalised news. This is

:00:48. > :00:51.the news you do not get from elsewhere. You don't get that from

:00:52. > :00:56.the National stations. You often don't get it from the regional

:00:57. > :01:00.stations can, because they are covering bigger areas now. That is

:01:01. > :01:04.really interesting. For example, in Taunton, we have just welcomed the

:01:05. > :01:10.fact that the governorate has just announced Taunton as a garden town.

:01:11. > :01:17.But what a derelict place for the public in Taunton to interact about

:01:18. > :01:21.what they think of that. That was well covered on the local stations.

:01:22. > :01:27.Also, what better place to carry out a poll on which day we should have

:01:28. > :01:31.Somerset day. It was huge audience interaction across all the different

:01:32. > :01:38.stations about what people thought about that. And they local

:01:39. > :01:45.initiative called Art Taunton. It is trying to encourage culture and art

:01:46. > :01:49.in Taunton. We need to up our offer of art and culture. Perhaps the

:01:50. > :01:57.minister might take this on board, being in this particular area. He

:01:58. > :02:04.may even do an interview on the radio. It is important. It is

:02:05. > :02:10.important, as has been touched on by my honourable friend, who is just

:02:11. > :02:16.leaving, in times of crisis. Local stations were invaluable in the

:02:17. > :02:21.terrible time of flight in 2013 - 14, when huge areas of Somerset

:02:22. > :02:27.flooded and it was the local radio that was the linchpin of

:02:28. > :02:29.transmitting the news, of people phoning in and offering help, people

:02:30. > :02:32.caught making where they should go and what they should do. It was

:02:33. > :02:39.local radio that played a key role in that time. It is also really

:02:40. > :02:42.important when it snows, for transferring information, but Italy

:02:43. > :02:46.for the local schools. All of the local schools use the local radio to

:02:47. > :02:51.tell people whether they are open or closed. Everybody turns on the radio

:02:52. > :02:59.to find out. It is invaluable in times of emergency. That is

:03:00. > :03:01.important. Also think of local guide you and you cannot help but think of

:03:02. > :03:09.travel reports. You know, is this not where all about honourable

:03:10. > :03:12.friends get travel information, about what is happening in rush

:03:13. > :03:23.hour, whether to use that key road in Somerset, the A358. If one hears

:03:24. > :03:28.that that road is log jammed, one void it. It is a marvellous service.

:03:29. > :03:30.I hope we will never have to hear those messages again shortly

:03:31. > :03:35.because, this week, I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State for

:03:36. > :03:39.Transport has just reiterated his commitment to upgrading that road.

:03:40. > :03:46.Hopefully, we will all start not hearing about that so much now local

:03:47. > :03:53.radio. I will mention some of the excellent community radio stations

:03:54. > :04:02.in my constituency. One is Tone FM. It is very good for its traffic

:04:03. > :04:06.news. This station has an incredible audience of 22,000 people. That is

:04:07. > :04:19.incredible for a small town community radio station. They are

:04:20. > :04:23.operating on a shoestring. I used to due a regular gardening slot for

:04:24. > :04:26.them. We had a lot of fun but also imparted a lot of knowledge and

:04:27. > :04:32.information. I will never forget the time... Are usually took in

:04:33. > :04:35.something for the audience to guess what we were talking about. I once

:04:36. > :04:40.took in an elephant garlic. If the members have ever seen one of those,

:04:41. > :04:50.it is a bit drastic thing to see and using cooking. Much guesswork went

:04:51. > :04:55.on about my Jerusalem artichokes. We get a lot of interaction about what

:04:56. > :04:58.is going on in Parliament, and people this into the pod casts, it

:04:59. > :05:05.is a great way of disseminating information. All of the people that

:05:06. > :05:10.work in this station, it would not run without them. Darren McCullum

:05:11. > :05:24.puts a lot of hours into making sure it runs. Ten Radio is also

:05:25. > :05:31.fantastic. With my honourable friend agree that these hyper local radio

:05:32. > :05:36.stations, they could all... This Bill could be a substitute for the

:05:37. > :05:39.sort of Facebook community pages which are grown up in many rural

:05:40. > :05:43.areas but are not accessible to older people because they have to

:05:44. > :05:47.look at them. This might be the perfect substitute for those or the

:05:48. > :06:01.declining local newspaper is as well? She makes a valid point. It is

:06:02. > :06:05.an invaluable service for local news and gossip. I enjoyed going there

:06:06. > :06:09.before Christmas to give an update on my year in Parliament, and they

:06:10. > :06:22.did a long interview and then did one is about cast as well. It is run

:06:23. > :06:28.entirely by volunteers. They have to run the technical size of these --

:06:29. > :06:35.sides of these services. I particular wanted to mention the

:06:36. > :06:40.story of Joseph Tucker. He is a wheelchair user. He speaks through a

:06:41. > :06:51.computer-controlled gadget with his aye movements. He presents a show,

:06:52. > :06:55.which is all about musicals, which is brilliant. What a fantastic

:06:56. > :07:05.platform for Joe to engage with people and for them to engage with

:07:06. > :07:09.Joe. It was on a small local commercial radio station that I

:07:10. > :07:14.started, where many people from pirate radio had gone to work, like

:07:15. > :07:19.Johnnie Walker, who is now on Radio 2. At that time, I had left

:07:20. > :07:25.university and I started there for work experience. I worked there for

:07:26. > :07:30.a whole year pretty but unpaid. I had three other jobs on the go to

:07:31. > :07:37.fund myself. I divided a programme called country connections which are

:07:38. > :07:42.broadcast live at 7am. It would all of my Saturday nights. I had to

:07:43. > :07:46.drive all the way to Bristol early in the morning to broadcast the show

:07:47. > :07:51.to the whole of Bristol. I'm sure nobody was listening to it because

:07:52. > :07:56.it was so early and it was a very urban audience. It was a fantastic

:07:57. > :08:02.grounding. It was where I learned all of my craft on editing,

:08:03. > :08:07.producing and all of that. Without that, I am certain I would not go on

:08:08. > :08:13.to produce farming today on Radio 4. That is where I did all of my

:08:14. > :08:17.groundwork. Small local radio stations are still offering this

:08:18. > :08:21.opportunity for young people. I would urge people to take it. It is

:08:22. > :08:26.a fantastic grounding. The more we can do to help those those services

:08:27. > :08:35.remain in existence and expand, all the better. That is what this Bill

:08:36. > :08:46.will do. To go on, Tone and Ten radio are not on DAB. The cost is

:08:47. > :08:58.too high and there is not sufficient capacity for stations like this.

:08:59. > :09:06.The smaller local stations are very much aware that audiences are moving

:09:07. > :09:10.over to digital, and all of them would very much, and in particular I

:09:11. > :09:17.have talked to them about this, they would appreciate the opportunity to

:09:18. > :09:44.work on digital as long as it is affordable.

:09:45. > :09:52.They have demonstrated the software -based approach can be viable. Two

:09:53. > :09:58.breeze radio does broadcast from the constituency of Taunton Deane.

:09:59. > :10:02.Across the ten trial areas, 70 unique radio stations are being

:10:03. > :10:07.carried. The majority of them are new DAV, and I believe a lot of

:10:08. > :10:16.interesting work went on during the trial and lessons can be passed on.

:10:17. > :10:19.I think it is an exciting opportunity which has opened up. It

:10:20. > :10:24.is proven they could work and I hope this Bill will facilitate those

:10:25. > :10:30.things going forward. To conclude, I am delighted to support this Bill

:10:31. > :10:33.which will allow Ofcom flexibility on servicing small-scale radio

:10:34. > :10:38.stations with multiplex licences in a much, much simpler and more

:10:39. > :10:44.straightforward manner. This can benefit, and can only benefit local

:10:45. > :10:50.radio stations in doing their work. The committee will benefit hugely

:10:51. > :11:00.from that. If this Bill is passed, the opportunities could be endless.

:11:01. > :11:04.Perhaps one may even be able to start up a radio station from my

:11:05. > :11:16.garden shed! Welcomed the Bill and wish it all the best of luck.

:11:17. > :11:23.Can I thank the Deputy Speaker. I haven't listened to the omnibus

:11:24. > :11:27.edition. I look forward about on Sunday, though I have tried quite

:11:28. > :11:30.hard. May I also congratulate the member for Paul Blake for producing

:11:31. > :11:34.a very excellent Bill which I'm delighted to be able to support

:11:35. > :11:41.later on today, should it be put to a vote. I will certainly declare an

:11:42. > :11:45.interest, namely that my father, when he left the Navy, he

:11:46. > :11:50.immediately became the head of outside broadcasting for a

:11:51. > :11:53.television station which is the forerunner to ITV and all of that as

:11:54. > :12:03.well. As many people may know, my brother

:12:04. > :12:07.is the cricket correspondent for sky television and before he took up

:12:08. > :12:14.that job somewhere the go now, he was a newsreader on Radio 4 where

:12:15. > :12:20.repeatedly he went on radio at 1pm on Saturday lunchtime and said, BBC

:12:21. > :12:23.radio news at one o'clock, a Russian submarine has been found south-east

:12:24. > :12:31.off Swindon. It should have been Sweden. It's one of those things. I

:12:32. > :12:37.am going to confess, in the 1980s there was the Conservative Party

:12:38. > :12:41.agent and I worked for Angela Rumbold who was the Minister for

:12:42. > :12:45.education and went to the Home Office. Before she became a

:12:46. > :12:53.minister, she got very involved in the campaign to do with the company

:12:54. > :12:56.called radio Jackie. It was a pirate radio station. It broadcasts

:12:57. > :13:03.initially on a Sunday and then moved a bit further into broadcasting

:13:04. > :13:08.during the course of the day. There was a real sense of the time that

:13:09. > :13:11.the DTI didn't want to have more radio stations that were actually

:13:12. > :13:17.being put forward at that time. It was very limited. The BBC, I think

:13:18. > :13:24.by that time Capital Radio had come on board as well, but it was a

:13:25. > :13:30.really important issue. This feels a groundhog Day to me. Indeed, I have

:13:31. > :13:34.to confess, there were times when the DTI were so stringent that they

:13:35. > :13:37.decided they were going to try and read some of these pirate radio

:13:38. > :13:45.stations only tried to and did succeed. They succeeded in reading

:13:46. > :13:50.radio Jackie. I was asked by my governor to make sure that he was

:13:51. > :13:57.aware as to what was likely to end up happening and heated the

:13:58. > :14:00.equipment away, rather than lose it. It seems to my mind that we have

:14:01. > :14:07.moved an awful long way now with the advent of digital radio to make sure

:14:08. > :14:11.that we can actually now provide a better service, but more

:14:12. > :14:15.importantly, a greater service. More choice as far as radio is concerned

:14:16. > :14:23.as well. I think that is something which every much welcome in this

:14:24. > :14:30.country. Can I pay tribute, not only to my local BBC radio station and

:14:31. > :14:34.the wonderful Gordon Sparks, who unfortunately hasn't been

:14:35. > :14:38.commentating very much on Plymouth Argyle, which honourable members may

:14:39. > :14:41.know, ended up drawing against Liverpool and we are very much

:14:42. > :14:46.looking forward to what happens on Tuesday when the replay at home

:14:47. > :14:52.Park. I understand tickets had been going incredibly well, too. It could

:14:53. > :14:58.potentially add ?1 million to Plymouth Arguelles's Exchequer. Can

:14:59. > :15:05.I also pay tribute to Simon Bates who has just given up being on radio

:15:06. > :15:09.Devon. Every time she wanted to talk about my great campaign about how we

:15:10. > :15:13.could make sure that hedgehogs become a protected species and one

:15:14. > :15:18.wouldn't want to miss an opportunity during the course of an informal

:15:19. > :15:21.debate like this in order to acknowledge him. Sadly, he has

:15:22. > :15:26.decided to stand down. I would like to pay great tribute, because he was

:15:27. > :15:30.a delight to end up being injured the guy and I thoroughly enjoyed

:15:31. > :15:34.myself. Can I also paid tribute to radio Plymouth, which probably is

:15:35. > :15:38.the best example of the local community radio station within the

:15:39. > :15:42.city as a whole. It covers a whole series of issues and I think is very

:15:43. > :15:47.good. Another great thing and I think it's important about having

:15:48. > :15:51.community radios is that it can actually cover specific community

:15:52. > :15:56.events which take place. In 2020, Plymouth will be commemorating and

:15:57. > :16:01.has been named as the place where we will be commemorating Mayflower 400.

:16:02. > :16:07.This is where the Mayflower left Plymouth Asturian a journey into

:16:08. > :16:17.Torbay and other places as well. It founded the American colonies. We

:16:18. > :16:24.need to make sure that there is good coverage of this, so that people

:16:25. > :16:27.feel they are engaged. And we know how it is during Arscott or

:16:28. > :16:31.Wimbledon, there are specific radio stations set up in order to cover

:16:32. > :16:39.that and it seems to my mind that this is a useful opportunity whereby

:16:40. > :16:42.local communities can promote the activities which they are going to

:16:43. > :16:46.be talking about, but secondly, they can make sure that people in the

:16:47. > :16:51.individual communities are actually going to be very much engaged. If

:16:52. > :16:58.this is successful, can become another version of the Democrat

:16:59. > :17:04.focus. I suspect I will have to ask the Minister, who I am delighted to

:17:05. > :17:08.see in his place today, because he is a great cricket fan, too. He has

:17:09. > :17:18.played cricket with me, too. That has been great fun, in India. We

:17:19. > :17:22.ended up by having a great time, but is very good news, because I know

:17:23. > :17:28.that he has in his own constituency, Newmarket, which has a good racing

:17:29. > :17:32.events as well. I think there are specific ways that we can do this.

:17:33. > :17:37.We can make sure that there are could be specific campaign issues. I

:17:38. > :17:42.am acutely aware that the website is now, there are a number of community

:17:43. > :17:51.websites, like FW 19 which I know about from the days when I was

:17:52. > :17:56.younger. They have regular people who write in and put comments on it

:17:57. > :17:59.as well. Some of the local community activities and I think that is

:18:00. > :18:05.something which is very, very important. One question that I would

:18:06. > :18:10.ask the Minister, to see make sure that when this is being developed,

:18:11. > :18:15.I'm completely aware that this is about infrastructure, did he make

:18:16. > :18:22.sure that there is actually going to be affordable licenses that local

:18:23. > :18:33.people can afford. The would be nothing worse than for it to be too

:18:34. > :18:38.expensive and prohibitive. Yes. The honourable member, I hope you will

:18:39. > :18:44.be reassured that experience wear off, did its trousers that very

:18:45. > :18:49.small operations did get going. Enabling to have this funny much

:18:50. > :18:54.more permanent bases across the rest of the country. The cost of the

:18:55. > :18:58.current multiplexes would exclude any operation. Thank you for that.

:18:59. > :19:01.The other point that I would also make is that it is very important

:19:02. > :19:04.that we develop an infrastructure that isn't going to be too expensive

:19:05. > :19:12.as far as the communities are concerned, too. I'm acutely aware

:19:13. > :19:15.and I will make a confession, I did some work on behalf of the mobile

:19:16. > :19:20.phone operators and it seems to my mind that we still need, sadly on

:19:21. > :19:24.the train going down to Paddington to Plymouth, we need to have much

:19:25. > :19:29.better mobile phone coverage, because half the time when you go

:19:30. > :19:33.down, you can't actually get on to the Internet or for that matter can

:19:34. > :19:39.you end up taking telephone calls, because the mobile phone coverage

:19:40. > :19:42.isn't particularly good. Why could it not be the local communities

:19:43. > :19:50.could also opt to end up by pitting their stuff on the mobile phone mast

:19:51. > :19:54.network, too. That I think is important. The final point I would

:19:55. > :19:57.make is, could we have an assurance from the Minister that what we are

:19:58. > :20:03.going to be able to do is to make sure that it could not end up that

:20:04. > :20:07.these community radio stations cannot be abused by other political

:20:08. > :20:12.parties and that actually it has got to be used to conform to the

:20:13. > :20:16.representation of the People's act, whether has to be balanced,

:20:17. > :20:20.especially during the course of elections, too. That is something

:20:21. > :20:23.that I would be very nervous about if we ended up having a biased

:20:24. > :20:29.reporting and I think one of the things that is really good, I

:20:30. > :20:32.personally think, that the BBC isn't particularly biased and I think it's

:20:33. > :20:37.very important that we do not give an opportunity for people who have

:20:38. > :20:41.perhaps not necessarily agreed with everything to end up by using it in

:20:42. > :20:46.order to be a campaign going in a party political manner against us.

:20:47. > :20:51.Thank you very much indeed. This has been a pleasure and a delight and

:20:52. > :20:54.can I say that this has been a fantastically informal, I would

:20:55. > :20:57.predict to you, debate weather has been entertainment which I suspect

:20:58. > :21:04.Abu braided summer of two. LAUGHTER

:21:05. > :21:12.-- I suspect I have provided some of that, too. I would like to

:21:13. > :21:17.congratulate my honourable friend, the member for Torbay for securing

:21:18. > :21:21.the Bill today. It is an issue of great importance to both of us in

:21:22. > :21:26.the Chamber today and hopefully many other members as well. I would also

:21:27. > :21:30.like to add my name to the list of people who are archers fans and I

:21:31. > :21:35.also have been known to listen to each episode three times. I must

:21:36. > :21:44.visit on record, I no longer have the time to do that, but in the past

:21:45. > :21:50.I have. Is my honourable friend aware that there is a wonderful

:21:51. > :21:54.Archers and it kissed which is an organisation which believes that

:21:55. > :22:04.isn't exactly a soap opera, but more if fly by documentary as well. They

:22:05. > :22:08.have a lecturer from Sammy the cat everyday. Not like thank my

:22:09. > :22:14.honourable friend for that intervention, but I'm not surprised.

:22:15. > :22:19.The issue we are talking about today is of great importance to my

:22:20. > :22:26.constituents. Especially those in the southern part of my

:22:27. > :22:27.constituency. As you are aware, I represent error wash. They have a

:22:28. > :22:55.community read your station. It is called Erewash Sounds. They

:22:56. > :23:00.regretted in F community radio licence and were granted that on

:23:01. > :23:08.Saturday the 6th of March 2010 from studios which no... Was an old

:23:09. > :23:14.school, based in the community. It is a community interest Company. It

:23:15. > :23:22.is not-for-profit, run by volunteers for the benefit of the people.

:23:23. > :23:25.Running costs are covered by the advertising and sponsored it and

:23:26. > :23:30.when they are able to secured by grants, donations and fundraising.

:23:31. > :23:37.Community radio across the country faces certain issues that continue

:23:38. > :23:41.to affect their sustainability and hopefully today we're talking about

:23:42. > :23:49.one aspect that can really change the sustainability of the community

:23:50. > :23:54.radio operators. I'm led to believe that the community order from 2004

:23:55. > :23:59.places restrictions on community radio. Limiting broadcast power

:24:00. > :24:04.levels to quite low, stipulating that community radio can only credit

:24:05. > :24:08.up to 50% of total to read can use to advertising and sponsorship. Some

:24:09. > :24:16.local radio stations cannot even do that. They cannot sell any advertise

:24:17. > :24:22.or sponsorships. Erewash Sounds is currently restricted by this 50%

:24:23. > :24:31.rule. It has even greater problems. Erewash Sounds was allocated a power

:24:32. > :24:37.allocation of just 25 watts 96.8 FM. This is just one point away from a

:24:38. > :24:44.transmitter in Ashbourne to the west. These are commercial radio

:24:45. > :24:54.stations that broadcast on 96.7 FM. It is quick difficult to get that

:24:55. > :25:02.separation. 96.8 FM is also used by to BBC Wales Wealth language

:25:03. > :25:06.service. It has 125 kilowatts power and is in some parts 250 kilowatts.

:25:07. > :25:12.That is a transmitter located in South Wales. From Wunsch, Erewash

:25:13. > :25:20.Sounds has continued to suffer from spurious and often intermittent

:25:21. > :25:26.interference from the BBC's transmitter in Wales, the effects of

:25:27. > :25:31.which can be severe, interrupting. I'm sure that people do not mind

:25:32. > :25:37.hearing the Welsh language programme, but I'm afraid that in

:25:38. > :25:46.Erewash, not many people may be able to understand what is being said. I

:25:47. > :25:51.understand from the operator that this is even worse in fine weather

:25:52. > :26:02.and yes, in Erewash we do have lots of fine weather. With the challenge

:26:03. > :26:08.of frequency allocation, Erewash Sounds was told by off, comedy

:26:09. > :26:13.broadcast regulator, that 96.8 FM was and I quote, the best frequency

:26:14. > :26:19.they could offer. Now, that is really per. Erewash Sounds was also

:26:20. > :26:22.informed by off, but 25 what's with the usual power level allocated to

:26:23. > :26:27.commuter radio. Yet there is evidence that other community radio

:26:28. > :26:34.stations have been allocated double the power of Erewash Sounds and some

:26:35. > :26:43.have been allocated 100 kilowatts. You can see with the problems are to

:26:44. > :26:48.build up. The BBC radio Wales service and the low-power, this

:26:49. > :26:52.results in probably over half of my constituents being prohibited from

:26:53. > :26:57.tuning into Erewash Sounds residence in low Newton struggled to tune into

:26:58. > :27:02.Erewash Sounds added the southern part of the area that is the

:27:03. > :27:09.problem, partly because we have a village on a hill between Folkestone

:27:10. > :27:13.and Long Eaton. Some people probably can tune into Erewash Sounds, but

:27:14. > :27:19.I'm afraid that once they get over the hell, people can't do that.

:27:20. > :27:24.The power and the bandwidth is restricting the transmission of this

:27:25. > :27:33.fantastic local community radio station. This hasn't stopped Erewash

:27:34. > :27:36.Sound from promoting their radio station in the south of the borough,

:27:37. > :27:39.even though people can't hear them. They live in hope that one day

:27:40. > :27:53.things will change, hopefully through this Bill, and people

:27:54. > :28:04.through the whole of error -- Erewash world be able to hear it.

:28:05. > :28:08.I want to spend a little time explaining how Erewash Sound

:28:09. > :28:17.contraries to the whole community across my constituency. They provide

:28:18. > :28:29.the outside broadcast facilities at the Trinity Hospital -- community

:28:30. > :28:37.hospital. Last summer, I was invited to judge the floats at Long Eaton

:28:38. > :28:53.Carnival. I was so relieved to have a fellow judge. Where you are

:28:54. > :28:59.judging fantastic floats, you don't want to let anyone down. They're

:29:00. > :29:08.actively promoting and supporting the local hospice. They have also

:29:09. > :29:14.recently committed even more to a business club to allow them to meet

:29:15. > :29:20.in their premises so people involved can see what is involved in the

:29:21. > :29:23.radio. They tried to reach out. Other honourable members have

:29:24. > :29:25.alluded to the importance of community radio providing the

:29:26. > :29:32.training ground for budding presenters. Erewash Sound has got an

:29:33. > :29:39.academy which is open to local people, regardless of age or

:29:40. > :29:43.experience. Mr Deputy Speaker, it seems completely wrong that Erewash

:29:44. > :29:48.Sound supports the whole of my constituency really, really well and

:29:49. > :29:55.yet a great number of my constituents just cannot enjoy the

:29:56. > :30:08.pleasures of listening to the Trinity radio station.

:30:09. > :30:14.David Allen will still be broadcasting now, he goes on until

:30:15. > :30:17.1pm. On the most recent visit to the radio station, I had the leisure of

:30:18. > :30:23.sitting within and being interviewed by him. Live on-air we had a good

:30:24. > :30:31.chat and a bit of a phone in as well. It is a really interactive

:30:32. > :30:34.radio station. David Allen's show will be followed by the afternoon

:30:35. > :30:38.show, then the homeward bound and then the alternative show and then

:30:39. > :30:48.the late show. For those insomniacs to monks asked, the night owls show

:30:49. > :30:55.revise drug -- provides music throughout the night. I hope not to

:30:56. > :31:02.listen to that because I like my night's sleep. In the parts of my

:31:03. > :31:06.community that cannot receive the station, they have told Erewash

:31:07. > :31:10.Sound that they want to listen to the radio station but they cannot.

:31:11. > :31:20.They want the changes to be made that we are talking about today so

:31:21. > :31:24.they can tune in. Back in 2015, I made reference to the fact that

:31:25. > :31:29.people in Ilkeston think that the residents of Longleat and get

:31:30. > :31:36.everything and vice versa. Usually, I say they are wrong because they

:31:37. > :31:45.both get everything. In this case,, below Eaton residents are right.

:31:46. > :31:58.They don't get Erewash Sound. This doesn't do anything to bust that

:31:59. > :32:01.myth. In fact, the committee radio station was based on the fact it

:32:02. > :32:03.would help ring the two towns together and get technology has

:32:04. > :32:29.stopped them doing that. My discussions with Ofcom have

:32:30. > :32:34.resulted in the conclusion that the affordable license is the only

:32:35. > :32:38.option available for Erewash Sound to fulfil its goal of bringing

:32:39. > :32:43.people together and broadcasting to the whole of Mike Scituate see. That

:32:44. > :32:48.is why I am supporting the builder Dave -- the whole of my

:32:49. > :32:53.constituency. We need to bring this in without delay so all of my

:32:54. > :32:59.constituents can enjoy the sounds of Erewash Sound. I would like to thank

:33:00. > :33:03.everyone at Erewash Sound for providing such great entertainment

:33:04. > :33:05.and supporting the whole of the community through their committee

:33:06. > :33:13.actions, even though they are not broadcasting throughout the whole of

:33:14. > :33:16.the constituency. They do a fantastic job, all voluntary, but

:33:17. > :33:20.the people in Long Eaton want this to go through as quickly as possible

:33:21. > :33:29.so they can continue to enjoy the benefits seem in Ilkeston.

:33:30. > :33:36.I'd like to start by saying it is a pleasure to follow my honourable

:33:37. > :33:40.friend, and she dubbed about -- talked with so much passion about

:33:41. > :33:44.her local radio station. She is a good advocate for all things good

:33:45. > :33:49.about her constituency. It is a pleasure to speak in today's debate.

:33:50. > :33:54.I congratulate my honourable friend for bringing this Bill before the

:33:55. > :34:01.House. I do feel I should shed a level light on the reference made

:34:02. > :34:04.earlier in the debate, in the member's hard work and determination

:34:05. > :34:09.during his slot for this important Bill today. Reference has been made

:34:10. > :34:13.to the sleepover at the House of Commons to secure Bill slots, a

:34:14. > :34:18.well-known practice for those of us who are determined to try out best

:34:19. > :34:27.to get legislation on the statute book. I will say they were number of

:34:28. > :34:31.us there that night. There was no DAB radio, but we did have Big Ben

:34:32. > :34:39.chiming throughout the night. I will leave it at that. Moving back to the

:34:40. > :34:43.Bill, this is an important point. It is very technical in parts, but it

:34:44. > :34:56.is important and much needed. It will bring and create a lighter

:34:57. > :35:02.touch regime. Before I move on, during my research, I was pleased to

:35:03. > :35:12.hear my honourable friend, the motherboard want and even make a

:35:13. > :35:26.reference to the word dab. We did find out that the term DAB does

:35:27. > :35:35.refer to Digital audio broadcast, not the dance move, dab, where you

:35:36. > :35:41.look into your elbow as if you were sneezing. I will not be doing that

:35:42. > :35:48.today. Currently, there are around 250 committee radio stations and 200

:35:49. > :35:53.smaller stations transmitting on FM who do not have the opportunity to

:35:54. > :36:00.broadcast on digital radio. Local to my home constituency, there are

:36:01. > :36:03.Amber Radio and other local radio stations in the Birmingham West

:36:04. > :36:07.Midlands area. If this Bill does proceed through this place and does

:36:08. > :36:11.get onto the statute book, more committee stations at for local

:36:12. > :36:21.stations will be encouraged to start. The reasons for those not

:36:22. > :36:35.able to broadcast are twofold. There is insufficient bandwidth on the

:36:36. > :36:40.multiplex. A number of DAB radio stations are trusted on a single

:36:41. > :36:43.frequency and given to a geographical area. This is more

:36:44. > :36:48.efficient than FM, AM and other analog methods. The second is the

:36:49. > :36:59.prohibitive cost of broadcasting and these existing DAB networks. It is

:37:00. > :37:08.currently transmitted by three existing multiplexes. There are 58

:37:09. > :37:12.local commercial DAB multiplexes covering county sized areas. The

:37:13. > :37:17.cost broadcasting on such a multiplex is quite large. These

:37:18. > :37:21.multiplexes have a limited capacity and can only carry a certain number

:37:22. > :37:24.of stations, meaning the biggest county or countrywide stations can

:37:25. > :37:29.afford to broadcast while smaller committee stations, which serve a

:37:30. > :37:34.smaller area, I priced out of broadcasting on the multiplex. We

:37:35. > :37:39.have heard a lot today about the Ofcom work and the trials they have

:37:40. > :37:43.been doing. This Bill seeks to address the issue of capacity by

:37:44. > :37:50.enabling Ofcom to modify the various procedures, procedures and

:37:51. > :37:53.conditions connected to the awarding of licenses so more community

:37:54. > :37:58.stations can broadcast on small-scale DAB multiplexes. Surely,

:37:59. > :38:03.this must be a good thing for them as and all other constituents. Mr

:38:04. > :38:07.Deputy Speaker, for several years now, the Government has been

:38:08. > :38:14.discussing the digital radio switchover. I was pleased to hear my

:38:15. > :38:21.honourable friend make reference to this earlier today. Much like the

:38:22. > :38:23.digital television switchover in 2012, this switchover will see

:38:24. > :38:29.broadcasts move from analogue but wants to digital. For this to

:38:30. > :38:34.happen, criteria would need be met before starting any process of

:38:35. > :38:37.digital switchover. I was pleased to hear my right honourable friend

:38:38. > :38:48.assure us today that this Bill is all about choice and opportunity.

:38:49. > :38:52.Will we honourable man to give way? I thank the honourable member for

:38:53. > :38:59.giving way. Which she agreed that the focus is on giving an option for

:39:00. > :39:06.committee stations to go on to DAB, nobody will be forced to go off FM.

:39:07. > :39:10.What this Bill does is gives an option for the third tier of

:39:11. > :39:14.community radio to go on if it wants to, but if they want to stay on the

:39:15. > :39:18.current analogue stations, there is nothing to force them to do so. I am

:39:19. > :39:22.grateful again for my honourable friend for giving us all that

:39:23. > :39:33.reassurance that is very welcome today. There are many reasons why

:39:34. > :39:37.the DAB is vital. The first is choice, which he has just reassured

:39:38. > :39:42.us again on. The variety and quantity of stations available is

:39:43. > :39:46.the main motivation to use DAB. There are huge number available, we

:39:47. > :39:54.have heard many examples today. Stations playing jazz music all day,

:39:55. > :39:59.children's stations, religious stations, through to those that only

:40:00. > :40:04.play heavy metal. The FM spectrum only has limited space and is

:40:05. > :40:10.currently very crowded. DAB provides a greater space, stations and more

:40:11. > :40:15.choice for communities. And for space full local communities as

:40:16. > :40:31.well. There are double transition fees and the to won and analogue

:40:32. > :40:33.stations. Digital radio offers the possibility to develop content and

:40:34. > :40:41.innovation much better than analogue dials. These add scrolling text or

:40:42. > :40:44.slide shows, and adds the ability to pause and record live radio as many

:40:45. > :40:54.people have become expecting that as a normal. We have heard earlier that

:40:55. > :40:59.reception which is currently far from perfect, often described as a

:41:00. > :41:04.cliff edge. You may know yourself, you either have a perfect signal and

:41:05. > :41:09.reception or absolutely nothing at all. I'm hoping that you, Mr Debbie

:41:10. > :41:19.did speak, are the same wavelength as me today! In Chorley FM, we get

:41:20. > :41:23.perfect wavelength! This contrasts with FM which becomes slightly fuzzy

:41:24. > :41:27.as you begin to lose the signal. There are possible options to deal

:41:28. > :41:32.with this, but much like FM there is a limit to how many stations can be

:41:33. > :41:39.broadcast from a single multiplex. This limit is much higher than on

:41:40. > :41:41.FM. As a multiplex fills up, and competition increases, naturally the

:41:42. > :41:47.cost of broadcasting from that multiplex rises. This price is local

:41:48. > :41:49.stations out of broadcasting and the multiplex. Another reason why this

:41:50. > :42:00.Bill is so important. The industry has already made some

:42:01. > :42:04.developments increasing capacity on the DAV stations. This reduces the

:42:05. > :42:08.transmission costs and enables more stations to be accommodated within a

:42:09. > :42:15.multiplex. Another more efficient way of increasing DAV capacity is as

:42:16. > :42:21.which to be a B+. That is to three times more efficient. Some of the

:42:22. > :42:26.trialists in the off, trial were allowed to start broadcasting on DAV

:42:27. > :42:32.and it will be interesting to see what the Minister has the today. And

:42:33. > :42:37.I want comments the importance of community radio and why it matters

:42:38. > :42:44.community radio is live and kicking, we have heard that today. For these

:42:45. > :42:49.stations to really grow, there needs to be the opportunity and space for

:42:50. > :42:57.them to broadcast on small-scale, local multiplexes covering the local

:42:58. > :43:04.areas that they represent. I am reminded of my own background,

:43:05. > :43:09.coming from a local area, the deals radio was reporting on bad weather,

:43:10. > :43:12.localised road conditions each year of the bad weather forecast today,

:43:13. > :43:16.it's not just the rain and floods, but also the heavy snowfall across

:43:17. > :43:20.the country. I am sure that those local radio stations are playing a

:43:21. > :43:25.vital part of our constituents and our local communities. The British

:43:26. > :43:29.forces broadcasting service is another fantastic example of the

:43:30. > :43:33.true community radio station. I am going to wind up now, Mr Deputy

:43:34. > :43:37.Speaker, because I know the time is marching on and there are others who

:43:38. > :43:42.still would like to speak today. I would like to say that at the heart

:43:43. > :43:50.of this Bill, I think we have an opportunity not just help local

:43:51. > :43:53.radio stations access these local multiplexes, but making real

:43:54. > :43:56.difference to our local communities. Those local communities that we all

:43:57. > :44:02.fight so hard to represent in this place. Some have local radio

:44:03. > :44:06.stations, some do not. For some, I would like to think that this Bill

:44:07. > :44:11.brings about the opportunity for more local radio, more chance to

:44:12. > :44:16.broadcast, more chance to communicate and particularly at a

:44:17. > :44:20.time when there is a much said about the need for greater social

:44:21. > :44:25.cohesion, the need for communities to come together, particularly

:44:26. > :44:30.post-Brexit. I think this is a perfect opportunity we can all come

:44:31. > :44:34.together make a difference. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is my

:44:35. > :44:40.great pleasure to follow my honourable friend the member for all

:44:41. > :44:43.church. I would like to start my remarks by congratulating my

:44:44. > :44:48.honourable friend, the member for currently in bringing this Bill

:44:49. > :44:52.beyond the house. He is proving himself to be tenacious campaign,

:44:53. > :44:55.always stands up for his constituents and is an impressive

:44:56. > :44:59.Commons performer in my mind. I think we saw that at the side of

:45:00. > :45:03.this debate, speaking for nearly one hour and taking all the things

:45:04. > :45:07.thrown at him and speaking with great elegance. I am not surprised

:45:08. > :45:10.at all that he signed a night in his office queueing to get this Bill on

:45:11. > :45:15.the order paper and the four hours in this House, so I congratulate him

:45:16. > :45:20.for those efforts on behalf of his constituency. You tend to know that

:45:21. > :45:24.you are in a pretty good place on these bills when the honourable

:45:25. > :45:29.member for Shipley isn't here. There has to be and we are seeing

:45:30. > :45:34.demonstrated, very broad support for this Bill and a couple of words that

:45:35. > :45:38.my honourable friend the member for Shipley regularly uses when he

:45:39. > :45:42.speaks on a Friday is one of worthy sentiment and I think there is a lot

:45:43. > :45:48.of worthy sentiment in this Bill, because this is all about community,

:45:49. > :45:52.local services, communication with local people in local areas and I

:45:53. > :45:58.believe the objectives that underpin this Bill most certainly constitute

:45:59. > :46:03.worthy sentiment. I just want to start that by recognising in my

:46:04. > :46:10.pride of the country, we are very well serviced by our local media

:46:11. > :46:15.outlets. When it comes to radio, we have BBC radio Northampton, we also

:46:16. > :46:19.have connect FM, all of which provided brilliant local services

:46:20. > :46:26.have different leashes and dissonances. We also have good

:46:27. > :46:31.coverage with television would look east that provided good local news

:46:32. > :46:36.service and we have our newspapers. All of those come together in a

:46:37. > :46:42.different way to really contribute to local north Northamptonshire in

:46:43. > :46:45.life. As members from the house will appreciate, those different outlets

:46:46. > :46:48.have different resources available to them. Some of them are much

:46:49. > :46:53.better resourced than others. I don't think we should forget that

:46:54. > :46:56.community radio is very dependent upon volunteers who put an off a lot

:46:57. > :47:00.of time and effort into providing the services on behalf of the

:47:01. > :47:08.community where they are based. It is hardly surprising that currently

:47:09. > :47:11.around 200 small commercial radio stations and 244 community radio

:47:12. > :47:14.stations do not have the opportunity to broadcast and jewellery do you

:47:15. > :47:19.only realities around us are very striking. I think the rationale

:47:20. > :47:24.behind this Bill is exceptionally logical, because there's not enough

:47:25. > :47:30.capacity on the DA be multiplexes available currently, particularly in

:47:31. > :47:35.urban areas. The cost of carriage on networks is too high for some local

:47:36. > :47:39.stations. That is particularly pertinent in north Northamptonshire.

:47:40. > :47:47.The area of the multiplex coverage provided by county level DA be

:47:48. > :47:50.multiplex is too large computed the smaller transmission areas. The

:47:51. > :47:53.license of 12 years is not appropriate for all broadcasters. I

:47:54. > :48:03.will comment that later. I also think we have to recognise that we

:48:04. > :48:08.need to move with the times. Many small radio broadcasters broadcast

:48:09. > :48:14.online, but they need a better option. By the end of 2017, early

:48:15. > :48:19.2018, 50% of radio listening will be on a digital platform, which is

:48:20. > :48:26.hardly surprising in a digital age. 60% of UK homes have at least one

:48:27. > :48:32.DAB radio. That will have increased over the Christmas period with many

:48:33. > :48:37.people being given one as a gift. My honourable friend alluded to her own

:48:38. > :48:40.household situation and the digital radio she has received at various.

:48:41. > :48:46.That is the context that we, this debate from an one thing that my

:48:47. > :48:50.honourable friend the member for Torbay and I can sometimes be

:48:51. > :48:56.accused of is chuntering from a sedentary position and I can tell

:48:57. > :48:59.you that that happens when we believe that members on all sides

:49:00. > :49:03.are complaining about problems, but not really bringing any solutions

:49:04. > :49:08.for red to address and I have to say that as frustrated as on a somewhat

:49:09. > :49:15.regular basis. That is why this Bill has a particular strength I would

:49:16. > :49:21.maintain. The DC MS funded trials between 2014 and two dozen 16 have

:49:22. > :49:25.proven that this technology works. It proves this is a viable

:49:26. > :49:29.opportunity, this is something that could be ruled out, because we have

:49:30. > :49:33.seen through the ten pilots and we have seen in this library briefing a

:49:34. > :49:36.real acknowledgement of the successors been hard with those

:49:37. > :49:42.pilots. Not only have we identified a challenge and a problem, but we

:49:43. > :49:45.are also in a position where we have something to help rectify some of

:49:46. > :49:50.those challenges that is ready-made, ready available and I can be ruled

:49:51. > :49:57.out of we move forward on that basis. I think that is very welcome

:49:58. > :50:00.in its own right. Sometimes one of the criticisms that can be made of

:50:01. > :50:05.this House is that debates that we have here are sometimes a little

:50:06. > :50:09.abstract and what I would like to do in the back end of my remarks as set

:50:10. > :50:15.out the local context and exactly where we sit in my part of the

:50:16. > :50:21.country in relation to this issue. As I say, we are very well serviced

:50:22. > :50:29.by two local community radio stations, Collect F M and Corby

:50:30. > :50:33.radio. I've made part of contact with both of the review stations ask

:50:34. > :50:37.what their take on this Bill is. I have to mess they are any particular

:50:38. > :50:41.challenges or areas of improvement. I would like to reflect on the

:50:42. > :50:48.comments I have had back from that. They had been in touch and said that

:50:49. > :50:51.Connect FM is on DAB radio currently and they believe it is the way for

:50:52. > :50:58.written to the decision to invest in it. We currently broadcast on DA be

:50:59. > :51:04.across Northamptonshire. It gives smaller broadcasters like connect FM

:51:05. > :51:09.who previously only covered part of the county the ability to broadcast

:51:10. > :51:14.on a countywide basis. This is vital to ensure financial stability that

:51:15. > :51:18.broadcasters like as required. I think level playing field is

:51:19. > :51:23.important here. Previously only enjoyed by a limited number of

:51:24. > :51:26.commercial broadcasters and the BBC. The cost involved in broadcasting on

:51:27. > :51:33.DA BR currently I watch only high when compared to the financial

:51:34. > :51:37.return. We have had to negotiate heavily with the sole DAB supplier

:51:38. > :51:42.to be able to broadcast on the platform and even then can only

:51:43. > :51:47.afford a low, bit rate, Mono signal. Stereos beyond our reach currently.

:51:48. > :51:53.We have been keeping a close eye on small-scale DAB and it would be of

:51:54. > :51:56.interest to us. Current DAB costs are excessive, so anything that can

:51:57. > :52:00.be done to drive those costs down, was at the same time offering more

:52:01. > :52:04.listener choice has to be considered. We support the Bill at

:52:05. > :52:09.its aim is to achieve that and also bring forward a switchover date. I

:52:10. > :52:12.hope some of those issues the minister could remark on in his

:52:13. > :52:16.closing remarks and also we could get into the nitty-gritty as part of

:52:17. > :52:21.any future Bill put committee that I would be delighted to serve on to

:52:22. > :52:25.make sure that we get this right for all of different providers. I'll is

:52:26. > :52:29.just want to touch in a situation with regards to Corby radio who

:52:30. > :52:35.first started broadcasting in the 5th of December 2009 is a full time

:52:36. > :52:39.community radio station. It's incredibly strong on local issues,

:52:40. > :52:45.has a news output is well combined with popular music for all tastes.

:52:46. > :52:49.It does regular studio programming, has won a special live broadcast

:52:50. > :52:53.from the community of ten such as the carnival, the Highland

:52:54. > :52:57.gathering, which is very popular in the town. The opening of the Corby

:52:58. > :53:00.cube and the arrival of the Olympic torch in Corby. These are all

:53:01. > :53:06.pivotal moments in the history of the town which had been captured in

:53:07. > :53:12.local media output. I don't think without it would have been done in

:53:13. > :53:15.the past and will not happen as successfully in the future. We need

:53:16. > :53:22.to remember the enormous contribution that makes. This is

:53:23. > :53:27.local coverage by Corby people Forum Corby people all the way through and

:53:28. > :53:31.over the summer I took part in the listener takeover, where went in for

:53:32. > :53:35.an hour and they basically had a desert island discs show where I was

:53:36. > :53:39.able to get my rundown of my favourite songs. I thoroughly

:53:40. > :53:43.enjoyed it. I hope the listeners at home thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope a

:53:44. > :53:47.crazy few pounds to contribute to the radio station and I was just one

:53:48. > :53:53.of many people who took part in those initiatives throughout the

:53:54. > :54:01.summer months. Werther songs they once written by the member for more,

:54:02. > :54:04.and Lonsdale's thank you for that intervention. Shamefully, I have to

:54:05. > :54:12.say that I'm not aware of any of the songs that are honourable friend

:54:13. > :54:16.published. I was disappointed. I was disappointed he didn't set out in

:54:17. > :54:19.greater detail exactly what those songs were so that we could all go

:54:20. > :54:24.and look them up over the weekend. Perhaps we could have another show

:54:25. > :54:33.on Corby radio that goes through all of Dave Morris's greatest hits.

:54:34. > :54:38.Currently, the station does not transmit on DA be, it is only on F M

:54:39. > :54:41.to the borough of Corby and the surrounding villages. I know that

:54:42. > :54:44.when I head back at the end of the week, when it begins to come in

:54:45. > :54:52.range of my car radio that I'm nearly home. Corby radio is a

:54:53. > :54:55.community station. It has been issued a five-year community radio

:54:56. > :55:01.licence by off, which must be reviewed every five years. They

:55:02. > :55:09.would be very interested in being able to transmit on DA be. They

:55:10. > :55:14.cited back to me the evidence that I alluded to earlier. In the UK, more

:55:15. > :55:19.and more people are turning to digital radio and it is estimated

:55:20. > :55:24.that by the end of 2017, 50% of radio listening will be on the

:55:25. > :55:27.digital platform. The altimeter really set out that situation is

:55:28. > :55:32.part of this debate, because it is an important fact of the matter. The

:55:33. > :55:36.also mentioned to me that Norway has just started to phase out FM and

:55:37. > :55:42.that by the end of 2017, the whole country will be digital radio only.

:55:43. > :55:46.That's a global trend. We have heard many degrees the Government wanting

:55:47. > :55:49.to keep up and be at the front of the global race and I think on this

:55:50. > :55:53.issue we should want to be doing exactly that, too. They would be

:55:54. > :55:58.very interested in progressing the Bill. They are fully supportive of

:55:59. > :56:02.it and as a local MP, I think it's important I put that on the record

:56:03. > :56:05.and make sure we get this Bill through on its second reading and

:56:06. > :56:09.that is why I'm pleased to be here today. I just want to move towards

:56:10. > :56:20.the end of my remarks now, because this really does matter. Corby radio

:56:21. > :56:25.does provide such an important local service. It promotes excellent local

:56:26. > :56:29.community groups, Costner 's, fundraising efforts that other video

:56:30. > :56:33.providers simply aren't in a position to advertise in the same

:56:34. > :56:40.way. It provides that topical local news. As other members have alluded

:56:41. > :56:45.to, these stations provide important local weather updates that are

:56:46. > :56:50.crucial for people in the news output that comes from the small

:56:51. > :56:53.local radio stations, in my experience, is completely impartial

:56:54. > :56:56.and are simply often a case of presenting the facts and letting

:56:57. > :57:00.people know what is going on. It also provides, this is a point

:57:01. > :57:06.hasn't he picked up in this debate, a platform for local sports clubs to

:57:07. > :57:07.get across future fixture information, to get across reporters

:57:08. > :57:20.about how particular People are interested in the local

:57:21. > :57:24.clubs and local teams. It is important they have that platform

:57:25. > :57:27.available to try to encourage more people to come along to the ground

:57:28. > :57:33.is on a Saturday afternoon, for example. Will he give way? Of

:57:34. > :57:38.course. I thank him for giving way. He makes an excellent point about

:57:39. > :57:43.the value of community radio. I'm sure, like with our own radio

:57:44. > :57:50.Suffolk, you hear as we get towards the weekend in the summer about the

:57:51. > :57:58.fates you here. It really does show the importance and the vitality of

:57:59. > :58:06.keeping our local stations. This Bill will help this. I'm sure he

:58:07. > :58:11.would agree. I completely sharing those

:58:12. > :58:17.sentiments. In Bury St Edmunds, there is an awful lot of killing the

:58:18. > :58:24.work that goes on that would not get the hearing it gets if it were not

:58:25. > :58:29.for local radio. I was interested in what the member for South rouble

:58:30. > :58:36.said about loneliness. It is clear that there is a big role for local

:58:37. > :58:41.radio to play, particularly in isolated communities where people

:58:42. > :58:47.are not necessarily able to get urban to urban centres and not able

:58:48. > :58:50.to get for various reasons. This service keeps them connected to the

:58:51. > :58:56.local community and allows them to bring in as part of the feedback

:58:57. > :59:00.programmes that are held. It gives people that confidence that there

:59:01. > :59:03.are things going on around them. There is an avenue of support as

:59:04. > :59:08.well. Those are welcome. I commend her for the work she is doing on

:59:09. > :59:15.this issue of loneliness. I don't underestimate as a local MP, and it

:59:16. > :59:20.is a little bit lonely over and the opposition benches. I commend the

:59:21. > :59:26.Shadow ministers for taking part in this debate today. I don't

:59:27. > :59:29.underestimate the value of community radio in my local constituency. Not

:59:30. > :59:33.only do people speak warmly about it, but I spend a lot of time

:59:34. > :59:39.knocking on doors. Part of my job that I enjoy most is knocking on

:59:40. > :59:43.doors, finding out what matters most to people as part of that campaign.

:59:44. > :59:49.One of the things that strikes me on a regular basis is the number of

:59:50. > :59:55.stickers in people's Windows for Connect FM and also for Corby Radio.

:59:56. > :00:00.It shows that people are switched on to their kill unity radio services,

:00:01. > :00:04.they hugely supported. They put a sticker in their window, which shows

:00:05. > :00:11.evidently the value that people place on those services. So I

:00:12. > :00:15.believe, in conclusion that this Bill presents a way forward to

:00:16. > :00:20.secure the future of community radio services. There is no compulsion

:00:21. > :00:24.about this, as the honourable men before Torbay has been clear about,

:00:25. > :00:27.this provides another opportunity for community radio stations to be

:00:28. > :00:30.able to secure their future in the way that works best for them. I

:00:31. > :00:37.commend that and I very much hope that this Bill will make progress

:00:38. > :00:40.today. We had a lot today about local

:00:41. > :00:56.amenity radio and I want to endorse a lot of that. I would blog about

:00:57. > :01:04.the future of DAB radio. I will state the matter of interest, I am

:01:05. > :01:09.the leader of the all-party committee on this. We talk about the

:01:10. > :01:13.motorbikes is that we have. We do have the national multiplexes, but

:01:14. > :01:17.even their coverage is not great. But it is the future of radio. There

:01:18. > :01:28.will come a day were we switch over from analogue to digital, and that

:01:29. > :01:35.... As soon as that comes, the letter. We need to secure the future

:01:36. > :01:40.of our local radio stations. As has been eloquently laid out today, the

:01:41. > :01:46.small local radio stations, and it has been a great opportunity for us

:01:47. > :01:53.to wax lyrical about how own local radio stations, and I intend to be

:01:54. > :01:58.no different! I will talk about my own constituency radio station. My

:01:59. > :02:04.constituency covers 200 square miles. Signals are problem, it has

:02:05. > :02:15.many hills. Because of where we are, we did not identified Radio

:02:16. > :02:24.Manchester, Radio Sheffield and so on. Our local station provides a

:02:25. > :02:32.bespoke service for our area. The way things are, it is beyond the

:02:33. > :02:39.finances of small, independent community commercial radio stations

:02:40. > :02:42.to go into digital. It is too expensive, too costly and too

:02:43. > :02:47.difficult. This Bill is an excellent piece of legislation and the sooner

:02:48. > :02:52.we get it through, the better. What it does, as has been laid out by my

:02:53. > :03:09.honourable friend from Torbay, it places a framework whereby the likes

:03:10. > :03:15.of High Peak Radio can get onto DAB. I wish to remind my oral friend that

:03:16. > :03:22.I was saying that... I have moved places. I was referring to the oral

:03:23. > :03:34.member for Sedgefield which was some years ago. We need to allow the

:03:35. > :03:46.likes of High Peak macro Radio to move into the digital age. Without

:03:47. > :03:56.the costs that prevent such a conversion. I look at what High Peak

:03:57. > :03:58.Radio have done for the community in the years they have been

:03:59. > :04:03.broadcasting. They benefit so many aspects. We talk about community and

:04:04. > :04:12.charities and we have things like Lighthouse Hospice, where High Peak

:04:13. > :04:16.radio are supporter of that charity. If you take part in an event at High

:04:17. > :04:25.Peak, I have walked all the way around, I have played golf, I have

:04:26. > :04:33.done everything for charity. High Peak Radio have facilitated that and

:04:34. > :04:38.got the word out. One of the first charity walks I did, one walked

:04:39. > :04:42.around the boundary of the constituency, I was walking out of

:04:43. > :04:47.Buxton and a car pulled up. People. Andy Hope and his window and said,

:04:48. > :04:52.there is a tenner. I just heard on High Peak Radio that you are walking

:04:53. > :04:58.the boundary of the constituency for that charity of the time. I heard on

:04:59. > :05:01.the radio, here is ten quid. That went to the charity. That is an

:05:02. > :05:06.isolated incident of how the radio station helped supports only people

:05:07. > :05:12.doing such good work for the charities. They cannot afford an

:05:13. > :05:17.advert on the big radio stations or on television. The local radio

:05:18. > :05:23.station encouraged that support. It in turn promotes amenity cohesion.

:05:24. > :05:28.We talk about cohesion in the amenity in this place and this is a

:05:29. > :05:36.great way of doing it. -- promotes commune at the code lesion.

:05:37. > :05:45.People say that people don't listen to the radio any more, but in High

:05:46. > :05:48.Peak they do. There is the music but they get the local news and it makes

:05:49. > :05:54.them feel part of their local community. Sometimes these are

:05:55. > :06:02.elderly people who could not get out as much as they want to. They know

:06:03. > :06:06.what is going on in their town and that area. They know that on

:06:07. > :06:10.Christmas Day, there was an organisation that it's a Christmas

:06:11. > :06:12.pledge for people. It is a great way for creating this code lesion and

:06:13. > :06:21.dealing with the social isolation that we in this place try to find

:06:22. > :06:28.ways to deal with. I can assure you it is probably pretty snowy in the

:06:29. > :06:32.High Peak. Buxton is one of the highest towns, but have been highest

:06:33. > :06:41.pub in England, which will be covered in snow. With High Peak

:06:42. > :06:47.Radio, they can... If you put on your regional radio station, you

:06:48. > :06:51.will only hear about Buxton once or twice a year. You care about the

:06:52. > :06:55.rows that are often blocked with traffic. This time of year, snow is

:06:56. > :06:58.a problem and those roads that many other rows. If you are looking to

:06:59. > :07:03.get from Glossop to Buxton, you would not get that on BBC Radio

:07:04. > :07:12.news, but you would get it on High Peak macro radio. The downside is

:07:13. > :07:27.that Jamie Douglas cannot get to work today, so Mike sojourns in

:07:28. > :07:33.office is closed. -- my constituency office is closed. There is traffic

:07:34. > :07:36.news going on all the time. My friend from Corby, he talked about

:07:37. > :07:42.sport and I was glad he mentioned that. I wanted to mention it first

:07:43. > :07:47.but he beat me to it! We have football, cricket, rugby, lots of

:07:48. > :07:55.sports teams in the High Peak. With Will he give way? My friend with the

:07:56. > :07:59.hedgehogs is back. Certainly. He may recall that he organised a game of

:08:00. > :08:09.cricket up in Burton which I was delighted to play in. It was a great

:08:10. > :08:17.game. It was actually Buxton! It is the only example where a day's

:08:18. > :08:20.cricket was lost due to snow. We organised a charity cricket game.

:08:21. > :08:30.The Parliamentary cricket team played the Emmerdale farm 11. He

:08:31. > :08:38.drove about 100 miles to play. He acquitted himself excellently. High

:08:39. > :08:42.Peak Radio broadcast from the ground and we raised about ?10,000 for the

:08:43. > :08:46.air ambulance. We could not have done that with such excess without

:08:47. > :08:51.the backing of our local radio station. They introduced the

:08:52. > :08:54.coverage. As a return to the local football teams, we have Buxton,

:08:55. > :09:00.where they often broadcast the game live if it is a big match. Glossop

:09:01. > :09:05.North end, who have been to the final twice recently. That is a huge

:09:06. > :09:11.event for the High Peak but is encouraged by High Peak Radio. They

:09:12. > :09:17.commentate on the game, live from Wembley. High Peak Radio how

:09:18. > :09:21.broadcast from inside this building. And I was elected to this place in

:09:22. > :09:26.2010, they broadcast from the Central Lobby. It was a fantastic

:09:27. > :09:29.thing because people in the High Peak feel connected not just with

:09:30. > :09:33.myself but each other. Those who could not get to Wembley to watch

:09:34. > :09:39.Glossop in the final, they could tune into the radio station and feel

:09:40. > :09:44.part of it. You will find no greater supporter of local radio in this

:09:45. > :09:47.place than myself. That is white I take an active role in the all-party

:09:48. > :09:52.group. They also support local businesses. I ran on for many years,

:09:53. > :09:58.as many colleagues in here have. You can't afford to advertise on

:09:59. > :10:01.television or BBC Radio Manchester, but there is an opportunity for

:10:02. > :10:07.small businesses, the small business or trade, a garage, a plumber, they

:10:08. > :10:11.give them an opportunity to advertise in the local area. An area

:10:12. > :10:17.they can serve efficiently, quickly and more often than not at a lower

:10:18. > :10:23.price than the national companies. He is talking about the fact that

:10:24. > :10:30.people can advertise on these. Has he ever can sit it advertising for

:10:31. > :10:35.his own election on the local radio? I have considered advertising and

:10:36. > :10:40.many times. I have had my name is on buses and things like that, although

:10:41. > :10:45.people did not backfire. People always said, I always said you look

:10:46. > :10:51.like the back of the bus, now you are on one! These radio stations are

:10:52. > :10:56.politically neutral. They will broadcast what I have to say, from

:10:57. > :11:00.my perspective as a member of Parliament or when I was eight

:11:01. > :11:03.candidate, or the Labour candidate, the Lib Dem candidate, whoever it

:11:04. > :11:10.is. They are completely neutral. That is one of the advantages,

:11:11. > :11:14.features of local radio. They do the broadcast and they are by the local

:11:15. > :11:18.people for the local people. They do not have a political edge. That is

:11:19. > :11:24.why a head not considered advertising politically on the

:11:25. > :11:30.radio, because that would spoil the essence of the local radio. I will

:11:31. > :11:36.give way. I have enjoyed the remarks he has been making. He will be aware

:11:37. > :11:40.that the broadcast rules around advertising for political parties

:11:41. > :11:41.would apply to these licenses as they do to larger scale ones as

:11:42. > :12:02.well. Yes, and it must remain so. If we can give them this option and

:12:03. > :12:05.the sooner it can be on the statute book, the better. They all have

:12:06. > :12:10.their own programmes. Right honourable friend from Corby has

:12:11. > :12:17.been on Desert Island Discs. My radio doesn't do that. They do High

:12:18. > :12:21.Peak insiders. I am a great supporter of High Peak radio and

:12:22. > :12:25.generally local radio. We need to give them every chance and every

:12:26. > :12:28.encouragement to survive and flourish by doing this, by getting

:12:29. > :12:35.this onto the statute book, they can get onto digital age and get the

:12:36. > :12:38.help they need. I am delighted to see this bill here today and the

:12:39. > :12:45.sooner we can get it through, the better. And the wider subject of

:12:46. > :12:49.radio, I would give a gentle nudge to my honourable friend, the

:12:50. > :12:52.minister, who is looking avidly and somewhat now startled, can we please

:12:53. > :12:57.catch up with this radio deregulation consultation because it

:12:58. > :13:02.has been talked about for quite some time. He is looking at his

:13:03. > :13:05.officials, as am I, everyone is nodding, so hopefully we can achieve

:13:06. > :13:08.something now. Thank you very much for bringing this bill forward.

:13:09. > :13:13.Hopefully it will be on the statute book as soon as possible and can be

:13:14. > :13:21.broadcast on High Peak radio as the news very soon. Thank you, Madam

:13:22. > :13:26.Deputy Speaker. Can I congratulate the honourable member for Torbay on

:13:27. > :13:33.his bill. The broadcasting Bill is intended to allow Ofcom a lighter

:13:34. > :13:39.touch listening regime in relation to small scale digital radio

:13:40. > :13:47.broadcasting. This comes following a two-year trial run by Ofcom and

:13:48. > :13:52.funded by the CMS. As you may know, there are two categories of digital

:13:53. > :14:00.radio multiplex under the Digital broadcasting act 1996. These are

:14:01. > :14:05.national and local coverage, where local coverage is roughly county

:14:06. > :14:11.sized. This bill would allow for a size which is no more than 40% the

:14:12. > :14:21.size of the current services. The intention is to encourage the spread

:14:22. > :14:28.of DAB to smaller scale radio stations. Often these county sized

:14:29. > :14:34.DAB services are too expensive and have too large a range for community

:14:35. > :14:38.services. As a result, and in commendation with other such

:14:39. > :14:43.factors, there are up to 400 local and community stations which are not

:14:44. > :14:48.carried on DAB but rather on analogue services, AM or FM.

:14:49. > :14:51.Small-scale DAB would indeed provide a cost-effective way forward. This

:14:52. > :14:58.bill aims to benefit both those areas experiencing over or under

:14:59. > :15:01.subscription. The extra coverage provided by small-scale radio

:15:02. > :15:06.multiplexes would benefit those areas, especially urban areas, where

:15:07. > :15:10.currently county sized provision does not have the capacity to meet

:15:11. > :15:17.demand. Likewise, in areas like the Shropshire and the Scottish Borders,

:15:18. > :15:21.where there is no local multiplex, small-scale multiplexes could be

:15:22. > :15:26.able to cater at a community level. More radio content and more people

:15:27. > :15:30.accessing that content is clearly a desirable outcome. Indeed, the

:15:31. > :15:34.Access radio scheme which saw the licensing of 15 community radio

:15:35. > :15:38.stations was piloted by the radio authority in 2002 under the Labour

:15:39. > :15:44.Government. Community radio continued to grow and strengthen. In

:15:45. > :15:49.the five years following 2004, when the community radio warder came into

:15:50. > :15:55.force, licences were given to more than 200 community radio services.

:15:56. > :15:58.This created around 400 jobs, involved 10,000 volunteers and

:15:59. > :16:01.offered their services to more than 10 million people. At the heart of

:16:02. > :16:06.the scheme is the use of radio for social game and the developments

:16:07. > :16:12.were hailed by Ofcom is one of the great UK broadcasting success

:16:13. > :16:16.stories of the past few years. Radio content made by communities and for

:16:17. > :16:20.communities was funded, supported and championed by Labour. Those hard

:16:21. > :16:23.working groups and individuals who continued to run the services

:16:24. > :16:30.continue to receive our full support and gratitude. Given that this bill

:16:31. > :16:33.extends and modernises Labour's legacy, we welcome this bill and our

:16:34. > :16:37.questions most relate to the practicalities rather than the

:16:38. > :16:41.principles. As this is a bill which the Government have drafted, we will

:16:42. > :16:46.be interested in what the Minister has disabling response. As mentioned

:16:47. > :16:49.previously, the bill document draws specific attention to rule areas

:16:50. > :16:54.where there are currently no local multiplexes. We have had many

:16:55. > :16:58.examples today of how this would be welcomed across the country.

:16:59. > :17:03.However, the Ofcom trial on which this bill is based used ten trial

:17:04. > :17:07.locations, all of which were cities, from Glasgow to Manchester to

:17:08. > :17:11.Cambridge. Of course I understand that the trial used pre-existing

:17:12. > :17:16.radio services and so could not take place in areas without local

:17:17. > :17:21.multiplexes. However, this disparity between the stated aim of the bill

:17:22. > :17:25.and the scope of the trial which it is based requires further

:17:26. > :17:28.exploration. Indeed, the industry body for commercial radio has

:17:29. > :17:32.expressed concern that the measure prohibiting anyone with an interest

:17:33. > :17:36.in a national or local multiplex from gaining a small-scale DAB

:17:37. > :17:41.license could negatively impact rural areas, in particular where it

:17:42. > :17:46.is possible that no other people would be interested. Can the

:17:47. > :17:51.Minister tell us today if de CMS's consultation will specifically

:17:52. > :17:55.address the feasibility of this programme in rural areas? In

:17:56. > :17:59.particular, what is his view about the concerns expressed by radio

:18:00. > :18:06.centre? The explanatory notes refer to those smaller radio stations and

:18:07. > :18:11.240 community stations are currently do not have access to DAB and they

:18:12. > :18:17.continue to board cast on analogue services on AM and FM. This bill is

:18:18. > :18:24.presented in particular as an opportunity for such stations but,

:18:25. > :18:28.Ofcom notes that in the smaller trials from 2016, whilst it should

:18:29. > :18:32.be technically possible to develop a frequency programme for small scale

:18:33. > :18:35.DAB to accommodate those stations, much more detailed planning and

:18:36. > :18:39.optimisation work would be required to develop a frequency plan which

:18:40. > :18:44.would be implemented in practice. The house will not want to pass the

:18:45. > :18:56.bill on until it knows that this can be in fermented in practice. Can the

:18:57. > :18:57.Minister tell us, please, what plans have been made to address these

:18:58. > :18:59.uncertainties. When will the detailed planning and optimisation

:19:00. > :19:02.work take place? Furthermore, there are issues to be addressed around

:19:03. > :19:06.the experience and skills needed to capitalise on the opportunities this

:19:07. > :19:11.bill could offer. Ofcom's final report notes that the trial is

:19:12. > :19:15.focused on functionality so that the software and materials provided to

:19:16. > :19:20.the operators involved in the trial were often, located and user

:19:21. > :19:22.unfriendly. The majority of operators had suitably skilled

:19:23. > :19:27.engineers or technical staff to deal with this and those that did not

:19:28. > :19:31.receive additional support. In reality, a wider roll-out would

:19:32. > :19:37.require more user-friendly tools as Ofcom recognises in the report. Yes,

:19:38. > :19:42.delighted. I thank the Shadow Minister for giving way and welcome

:19:43. > :19:47.the broad thrust of her remarks which appear to be supportive. If I

:19:48. > :19:53.could make some reference to the operators. As she met any of those

:19:54. > :19:59.involved in the trial and found out how simple some of this actually is,

:20:00. > :20:05.as I have? I thank the honourable member for his comments. I

:20:06. > :20:10.personally have not meant the providers as I am the Shadow

:20:11. > :20:14.Minister for sport but members of my team have met with them and this

:20:15. > :20:20.team are barely aware of the details, as I am -- are fully aware

:20:21. > :20:31.of the details, as I am outlining today. The majority of people had

:20:32. > :20:37.technical staff or additional support available. In reality, more

:20:38. > :20:40.user-friendly tools would be required, as Ofcom recognised in the

:20:41. > :20:44.report. This would be required by those without technically competent

:20:45. > :20:48.staff and by those establishing a station for the first time. The

:20:49. > :20:51.software developing community and market are beginning to deliver

:20:52. > :20:55.those more user-friendly technologies. However, given that

:20:56. > :20:59.this report was published only four months ago, it is safe to assume

:21:00. > :21:03.that no breakthrough accessible technology has yet become available.

:21:04. > :21:08.As such, does the Government to have a plan for making such technology

:21:09. > :21:12.available? Will Government stakeholders and industry cooperate

:21:13. > :21:17.to build up on skills and knowledge? Likewise, what assessment has been

:21:18. > :21:20.made of the risk of adjacent channel interference which was a matter

:21:21. > :21:24.discussed in the Ofcom report, which I am sure my honourable friend will

:21:25. > :21:29.be fully familiar with. Of course, as is so often the case, this comes

:21:30. > :21:32.down to funding and the Government is cutting funding wherever

:21:33. > :21:37.possible. Department for Culture, Media and Sport seem hopeful that

:21:38. > :21:41.bill will encourage the establishment of new small-scale

:21:42. > :21:56.radio services. Can they clarify how and if any of these will be able to

:21:57. > :21:58.claim grants? Radio projects established under Labour have

:21:59. > :22:02.suffered a 17% cut. I understand that note fund will be available for

:22:03. > :22:05.smaller scale DAB stations. Can the Minister confirm if that will be the

:22:06. > :22:09.case? Some other details also require clarification. The draft

:22:10. > :22:13.legislation specifies that a small-scale multiplex would only be

:22:14. > :22:19.operated on a non-commercial basis. I'm concerted -- uncertainty over

:22:20. > :22:23.this has caused concern amongst stakeholders. Radio centre

:22:24. > :22:27.appreciates that the aim is to keep costs of carriage as low as possible

:22:28. > :22:30.but with this stop a commercial operator from holding such a

:22:31. > :22:38.license. Would commercial licenses be able to broadcast on the

:22:39. > :22:44.multiplex? The community association has also expressed concern about the

:22:45. > :22:48.ambiguity on this although they are in support of the bill in general.

:22:49. > :22:52.In light of this, what measures will be taken to ensure that the

:22:53. > :22:57.licensing of small-scale multiplexes encourages healthy come petition

:22:58. > :23:01.without crowding out local services? Lastly, in relation to the bill at

:23:02. > :23:05.large, we would like to know why was this provision not included in the

:23:06. > :23:09.Digital economy Bill, the most obvious legislation for such a

:23:10. > :23:12.measure? Indeed, the honourable member for Aldridge-Brownhills asked

:23:13. > :23:18.the same question today in this chamber. The Government crammed

:23:19. > :23:23.everything else into that bill, to the extent that this is a rather

:23:24. > :23:28.more obvious thing to have included in their van what was in there. Does

:23:29. > :23:33.that not indicate that we were right all along and that Bill was not

:23:34. > :23:40.ready when we said, hence all of the adjustments. The Labour Party

:23:41. > :23:44.encourage the proliferation of small-scale radio when in Government

:23:45. > :23:49.and we welcome the opportunity for community channels and small

:23:50. > :23:57.commercial channels to expand and to DAB and we support the establishment

:23:58. > :24:03.of more local media. Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:24:04. > :24:06.Does she agree with me that community radio will benefit greatly

:24:07. > :24:12.from this bill. I was once a volunteer Reporter on a community

:24:13. > :24:18.radio station in Sydney in Australia where I covered rugby and

:24:19. > :24:22.international relations. It was good to play a small part in the

:24:23. > :24:26.community there and I am sure we support this bill for that reason.

:24:27. > :24:30.Absolutely. We wholeheartedly support this bill for that reason

:24:31. > :24:36.and I thank my honourable friend for his articulate and eloquent

:24:37. > :24:40.comments. I would like to take this opportunity to once again reiterate

:24:41. > :24:46.our support for local radio. Indeed, once with radio hows my own hustings

:24:47. > :24:52.when I was victorious in June and I was very grateful to them for

:24:53. > :24:55.covering it. Labour encouraged the proliferation of small-scale radio

:24:56. > :25:00.in Government and we are proud of that fact, while weaving the

:25:01. > :25:04.opportunity for community and small commercial channels to expand to DAB

:25:05. > :25:07.and we support the establishment of more local media. We have questions,

:25:08. > :25:12.some of which I have mentioned, and more which we will be discussing in

:25:13. > :25:15.committee if this bill is successful today in receiving a second reading.

:25:16. > :25:22.I greatly look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. Thank

:25:23. > :25:27.you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the Shadow

:25:28. > :25:32.Minister, although only slightly tempered that I was disappointed to

:25:33. > :25:35.see a small amount of party politics into what has been a nonparty blitz

:25:36. > :25:40.core and good-humoured debate today. I want to start by paying tribute to

:25:41. > :25:46.my honourable friend, the Member for Torbay, for introducing this bill.

:25:47. > :25:48.He is always an assiduous parliamentarian and performer in

:25:49. > :25:52.this chamber and it is always a pleasure to listen to him and it is

:25:53. > :25:56.even more so on an occasion when he is presenting his own bill and I pay

:25:57. > :26:02.tribute to him for what he said and the work he has done on this issue.

:26:03. > :26:05.As those that know me will be aware, I am not a particularly

:26:06. > :26:11.technologically minded individual and therefore it is debates such as

:26:12. > :26:15.this, Madam Deputy Speaker, that RA great opportunity to learn something

:26:16. > :26:20.one hadn't known before both in the Trent -- both through listening to

:26:21. > :26:25.them and in the research beforehand. Like many honourable member is, I am

:26:26. > :26:29.a great fan of radio. I have disabled, no one, as far as I am

:26:30. > :26:36.concerned, will ever quite compare to the late great Sir Terry Wogan. I

:26:37. > :26:43.was Terry 's Young geezer my youth, listening to him and he will

:26:44. > :26:46.continue to be missed. Of course, as many honourable member 's have said,

:26:47. > :26:51.there are some fantastic broadcasters today and I very much

:26:52. > :26:57.enjoyed not only Test match special and the wonderful John Suchet on

:26:58. > :26:58.classic FM, but of course the wonderful Jim and Joe and the BBC

:26:59. > :27:07.radio Leicester breakfast show. The essence of what we are debating

:27:08. > :27:12.today reflects on the success of digital radio. We have seen huge

:27:13. > :27:17.technological strides and developments in this area which are

:27:18. > :27:21.a massive positive, but the reality is that the legislative framework,

:27:22. > :27:27.the regulatory and licensing framework governing this area is

:27:28. > :27:31.still rooted in, I believe, the 1996 and 2003 acts and has not managed to

:27:32. > :27:38.keep pace with the changes we have seen. The regime is not explicitly

:27:39. > :27:43.anti-small community radio stations, but that can often be the effect of

:27:44. > :27:47.the way it operates. We have heard from honourable members that

:27:48. > :27:52.carriage fees can be up to ?5,000 a month. That is clearly excessive for

:27:53. > :27:59.many small community or voluntary radio stations. The trials which we

:28:00. > :28:04.have heard about which I understand will run until 2018 are hugely

:28:05. > :28:09.important and very positive, but not the basis for a sustainable,

:28:10. > :28:12.long-term footing on which we can set community radio stations. In

:28:13. > :28:22.essence there are three key elements to my honourable friend's bill which

:28:23. > :28:27.are around innovation, localism and, indeed, proportionality. In terms of

:28:28. > :28:33.innovation, we have heard and seen the huge strides made forward in

:28:34. > :28:37.digital and EAB radio technology, we have seen increases in the number of

:28:38. > :28:43.our constituents who choose to listen to radio in this way, and we

:28:44. > :28:48.heard from my honourable friend for Bari North, both about the huge

:28:49. > :28:54.successes in that technology but also that there are still challenges

:28:55. > :28:58.to be overcome. -- honourable friend for Bury North. I believe those

:28:59. > :29:03.challenges will be overcome. We have heard about the innovation and

:29:04. > :29:09.software technology to support and enable broadcasting like this. We

:29:10. > :29:13.have heard about localism from every honourable member talking quite

:29:14. > :29:16.rightly about their own constituencies and we all know as

:29:17. > :29:24.constituency MPs that each one of our villages, towns and parts of the

:29:25. > :29:28.city have a very distinct and proud local identity. Local radio stations

:29:29. > :29:33.and, indeed, community radio stations focused on towns and

:29:34. > :29:37.villages played directly into that. People want but very local news,

:29:38. > :29:44.they want that intimacy with the radio station that serves them. We

:29:45. > :29:47.have heard about the role that those radio stations play not just in

:29:48. > :29:51.combating loneliness, which my honourable friend the member for

:29:52. > :29:54.South Ribble mentioned quite rightly, given the amazing work she

:29:55. > :29:59.is doing on that subject. We have heard about their potential for

:30:00. > :30:04.bringing on new broadcasting talent and we have also heard from my

:30:05. > :30:08.honourable friend to the member for Corby, who has moved place but is

:30:09. > :30:12.still in the chamber, about that sense of identity that people have

:30:13. > :30:20.with those stickers in the window, I am sure, in the early summer of 2015

:30:21. > :30:25.alongside stickers abdicating his election to this house.

:30:26. > :30:30.The third element, of course, is proportionality. Proportionality of

:30:31. > :30:35.regulation to what is actually being regulated and what we seek to

:30:36. > :30:39.achieve. The regulatory framework is currently applied may well and

:30:40. > :30:43.probably is entirely appropriate for the regulation of multiplexes when

:30:44. > :30:50.talking about the BBC, national stations or large regions. I would

:30:51. > :30:56.argue it is not proportionate Ory reasonable framework in dealing with

:30:57. > :31:01.small, local community radio stations serving a particular town

:31:02. > :31:04.or village. This Government and particularly this minister have a

:31:05. > :31:11.very strong track record of supporting innovation, particularly

:31:12. > :31:16.in technology. I appreciate that he sometimes probably despairs of my

:31:17. > :31:20.unwillingness to embrace all elements that the technological

:31:21. > :31:23.revolution in this country can deliver, but he continues to

:31:24. > :31:30.champion the cause of technological innovation very, very proudly. As we

:31:31. > :31:36.know, he is also a great champion of localism and a great champion both

:31:37. > :31:39.in this role and previous roles of deregulation to ensure that any

:31:40. > :31:45.regulation necessary is proportionate to risk and what is

:31:46. > :31:48.being regulated. In this case, to free up small and community

:31:49. > :31:58.organisations, the better to deliver services to their community. This

:31:59. > :32:05.bill is overdue, I would argue, when we look at innovation and technology

:32:06. > :32:11.in this country, but it is extremely welcome. Seizing the opportunities

:32:12. > :32:18.that technology brings, harnessing the innovation and passion of our

:32:19. > :32:27.local communities and freeing them from unnecessarily odorous or costly

:32:28. > :32:32.regulation or licensing frameworks are extremely worthy ambitions and

:32:33. > :32:38.objectives. -- unnecessarily odorous. I believe this bill meets

:32:39. > :32:43.head-on and addresses these in full. I very much hope that this house

:32:44. > :32:49.will fully endorse the contents of this bill and that it will be able

:32:50. > :32:52.to proceed to the next stage. I very much look forward to what the

:32:53. > :33:03.Minister has to say but I do not doubt it will be in a similarly

:33:04. > :33:06.supportive vane -- vein reflecting the efforts of the member for

:33:07. > :33:10.Torbay. I'm very pleased to follow my

:33:11. > :33:15.honourable friend from Charnwood, as usual he raises lots of very good

:33:16. > :33:20.points. I would like to congratulate my honourable friend for Torbay for

:33:21. > :33:24.bringing forward this bill. I have to confess that this is not an area

:33:25. > :33:30.that I have been particularly familiar with and, like my

:33:31. > :33:34.honourable friend for Charnwood, actually I am a bit of the

:33:35. > :33:38.technophobe, I still can't work out how to do certain things on my

:33:39. > :33:44.mobile phone. The fact that I had the DA be in my car, I am probably

:33:45. > :33:50.more familiar with it that I have been in the past -- the fact that I

:33:51. > :33:54.have a DAB in my car. What I had not realised about this area is that

:33:55. > :33:57.there were significant barriers for local communities and voluntary

:33:58. > :34:05.radio stations for getting access to the infrastructure, which was a very

:34:06. > :34:10.interesting point. It made me look at my own constituency and see how

:34:11. > :34:16.things are going there and see what opportunities there could be. As my

:34:17. > :34:20.honourable friend from Ribble South mentioned earlier, this is a

:34:21. > :34:29.technical bill and it is focusing on opening up what we have already got

:34:30. > :34:32.to make it more accessible for communities and small organisations,

:34:33. > :34:36.that has always got to be a good thing. We are really lucky in my

:34:37. > :34:45.constituency of Rochester and Strood, we have a radio station

:34:46. > :34:52.called KMFM operating across Kent and Medway -- Kent and Medway. It is

:34:53. > :34:58.run by the KM group which operate on different radio stations across the

:34:59. > :35:05.county, particularly Medway, the site is in my constituency. But they

:35:06. > :35:12.do operate on a DA be multiplex across the county. There is one

:35:13. > :35:18.radio station that operates across the county on that system. The

:35:19. > :35:23.actual analogue stations that are separate across the county are a

:35:24. > :35:30.major part of getting news out. One of the things that KMFM have been

:35:31. > :35:36.really, really good at doing is supporting local events. We get

:35:37. > :35:40.coverage of all of our events in my constituency. Whenever we have a big

:35:41. > :35:46.festival in Rochester or Chatham or Strood we always have the local

:35:47. > :35:50.radio station covering what is going on, it is massively important for

:35:51. > :35:54.local people to hear and be part of what is going on and being able to

:35:55. > :35:58.listen if they have not always been able to get to some of the big

:35:59. > :36:08.events that we have. Also the key thing is the lifetime news, which in

:36:09. > :36:12.some cases is far quicker and far more accurate than what we get from

:36:13. > :36:21.some of the other bigger regional radio stations -- the live time

:36:22. > :36:26.news. One of the things, and only yesterday, actually, we had an

:36:27. > :36:31.incident where we were able to get out an incident... We had the snow

:36:32. > :36:35.last night and there was a man who, unfortunately, his boat was set

:36:36. > :36:42.alight and he had to jump into the river and was taken to hospital.

:36:43. > :36:46.That news was live very quickly via the local news link. I have not yet

:36:47. > :36:54.heard whether he is OK but I am sure that he is now. One of the other

:36:55. > :36:59.thing is that the local radio station is quite good at is

:37:00. > :37:06.businesses. I know it is mentioned by my honourable friend from High

:37:07. > :37:09.Peak, but it is far more accessible for local businesses and the local

:37:10. > :37:18.authority. When we want to advertise events happening locally it gives us

:37:19. > :37:22.an opportunity to be able to get access to cost-effective advertising

:37:23. > :37:27.and promotion of events. And for the local community that is a major,

:37:28. > :37:31.major thing. But also they are prepared to cover very, very small

:37:32. > :37:37.events like village fete which sometimes you would not be able to

:37:38. > :37:42.get the larger radio stations to cover at all, and in some cases my

:37:43. > :37:49.particular sport of sailing, very rarely do any of the regional... The

:37:50. > :37:55.national regional radio stations cover my sport of sailing. But it is

:37:56. > :38:00.quite... We are able to get our local very small community radio

:38:01. > :38:06.stations to come and cover what we are up to, which is a really am

:38:07. > :38:12.porting thing, not only to get out the message of what is going on in

:38:13. > :38:17.the constituency. But it's the diversity of the programmes, I

:38:18. > :38:21.think, that are covered by the small community and voluntary radio

:38:22. > :38:30.stations, for example in Kent there is another station called Channel

:38:31. > :38:35.Radio, a constituent of mine runs a radio programme called Women In

:38:36. > :38:40.Business. And she often has many different women who go one and speak

:38:41. > :38:43.on her programme talk about entrepreneurship, talk about how

:38:44. > :38:48.they are raising their family and running a small business from home,

:38:49. > :38:52.and it is a real opportunity for the people listening to the radio and

:38:53. > :38:58.being able to network without being able to see people face to face. One

:38:59. > :39:03.of the things... The feedback I have had is that those things are really

:39:04. > :39:07.important, it goes back to, maybe, loneliness, but if you are bringing

:39:08. > :39:11.up a small family at home and trying to contribute to the growth in our

:39:12. > :39:16.economy by setting up your own business you can listen to other

:39:17. > :39:20.females' experience about what it is like to run a business and some of

:39:21. > :39:23.the challenges that we do face when we are running businesses. So that

:39:24. > :39:30.has been a really interesting programme. She is a business woman

:39:31. > :39:32.herself and does this from a voluntary basis because she just

:39:33. > :39:38.wants to help women get on. She makes a very powerful case.

:39:39. > :39:43.Would my right honourable friend like to agree with me that local

:39:44. > :39:48.radio stations in particular like BBC Somerset in Taunton are great

:39:49. > :39:54.for education. I did a couple of gardening programmes, they were very

:39:55. > :39:58.much about encouraging people to garden but also to grow and feed

:39:59. > :40:05.their families healthily on very little money.

:40:06. > :40:11.I think she makes a wonderful point. She is absolutely correct. That is

:40:12. > :40:14.the beauty of community or voluntary radio stations, smaller radio

:40:15. > :40:18.stations. They have the opportunities, they have the time,

:40:19. > :40:26.they have more capacity to be able to deliver interesting programmes

:40:27. > :40:31.like that that meet the very particular demographic that they are

:40:32. > :40:34.serving. So I absolutely agree and there are lots of opportunities and

:40:35. > :40:37.I definitely feel that I have found that through some of the programmes

:40:38. > :40:43.that she has run. Also I have another gentleman, Paul

:40:44. > :40:47.Andrews, who runs The Kent Business Bunker. He also delivers a programme

:40:48. > :40:51.covering a range of things about whether you are looking for jobs

:40:52. > :40:58.across Kent, what particular industries are interesting to get

:40:59. > :41:03.into and also he also talks about funding for starter businesses and

:41:04. > :41:06.businesses wanting to grow. Actually business and helping the local

:41:07. > :41:11.community, especially in a constituency like mine which is a

:41:12. > :41:14.small business economy, opportunities and programmes like

:41:15. > :41:24.this are massively important for my particular local community.

:41:25. > :41:34.Sorry, I lost myself. The other thing that it does highlight is

:41:35. > :41:41.that, and I haven't spoken much about this now and we have heard

:41:42. > :41:43.members here today talk about a very particular voluntary radio

:41:44. > :41:53.organisation, so, for example, like the hospital radio. These are very

:41:54. > :41:57.valuable community sources, so I won't keep going on about that, but

:41:58. > :42:00.one particular reason I am very pleased to be supporting my

:42:01. > :42:09.honourable friend on this bill today is that this is the bill which is a

:42:10. > :42:14.positive bill, looking at something already in existence and saying, how

:42:15. > :42:21.can we open it up to the small section that currently needs it.

:42:22. > :42:24.There are many things where we can look at opening them up for the

:42:25. > :42:29.small business or voluntary sector and I think this is a really, really

:42:30. > :42:33.lovely and ideal thing to be bringing forward to the House, so I

:42:34. > :42:37.have had no hesitation in standing here today and supporting my

:42:38. > :42:43.honourable friend from Torbay. I congratulate him on his very, very

:42:44. > :42:53.detailed and well explained introduction today. It gave me a lot

:42:54. > :42:59.better knowledge of digital radio and its industry going forward. So,

:43:00. > :43:05.thank you, once again and I look forward to supporting the bill

:43:06. > :43:15.today. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank the

:43:16. > :43:25.honourable member/ and Stroud -- for Rochester and Strood and concur with

:43:26. > :43:28.her about the points about connectivity but also pay tribute to

:43:29. > :43:32.the honourable member for Torbay for bringing forward such a pertinent

:43:33. > :43:38.bill that will not only enable businesses to grow, but it will also

:43:39. > :43:46.start to allow us to look at not putting barriers in the way and ask

:43:47. > :43:49.allowing to be pulling down barriers and not increasing regulation must

:43:50. > :43:54.be what we are about in here. It's also about showing that we are a

:43:55. > :43:59.flexible and adaptable parliament. That's what we're doing here today.

:44:00. > :44:05.We are looking at modern times. We all work a different way, so

:44:06. > :44:10.enabling modern communications to be more effective is what we must be

:44:11. > :44:15.about. I will also declare myself as a radio nut. I will also say that my

:44:16. > :44:19.DAB radio is on top of my kitchen cupboard where nobody can reach it.

:44:20. > :44:23.Originally it was so I could get a better signal but now it is because

:44:24. > :44:27.it restricts any of my children from changing the channel. It seems to

:44:28. > :44:36.work very well on both fronts. Now, I also get a lot of my radio

:44:37. > :44:39.listening off my phone. It struck me that the question that the right

:44:40. > :44:44.honourable member for Plymouth asked as to whether we could use mobile

:44:45. > :44:48.phone connectivity in a more beneficial way would be one that I

:44:49. > :44:53.would like to ask the Minister. I am no technical bath. Is that something

:44:54. > :44:58.that could be looked into? I have heard in this place in other debates

:44:59. > :45:01.around mobile phones and not spots the fact that the churches have said

:45:02. > :45:06.that they would be happy, and they are very often the tallest building

:45:07. > :45:11.in rural communities, they would be happy to help facilitate masts and

:45:12. > :45:14.so on in order to drive greater connectivity into communities. As we

:45:15. > :45:21.heard from the honourable member for Ribble Valley, for the High Peak,

:45:22. > :45:25.loneliness and connectivity, making sure that people can get to hear

:45:26. > :45:29.what's going on in and around their local areas and in and around their

:45:30. > :45:35.lives is vitally important. I would welcome an answer on that. But

:45:36. > :45:39.radio's brilliant. It brings comfort. Not only do the Minister

:45:40. > :45:46.and I share radio Suffolk, but also our local hospital, West Suffolk

:45:47. > :45:50.Hospital. Radio West Suffolk brings great support to the patients that

:45:51. > :45:52.are in there and I will give a shout out to Ian Norris here who

:45:53. > :45:57.volunteers and we have heard so much about that this afternoon. People

:45:58. > :46:07.running these radios give of their own time so selflessly. This helps

:46:08. > :46:11.so much when you think that 87% of local radio stations support young

:46:12. > :46:15.people volunteering. It is a hugely important area of our life in order

:46:16. > :46:19.to start growing skills moving into the workplace. I don't know whether

:46:20. > :46:24.I am right. Perhaps the Minister would like to respond. I feel like I

:46:25. > :46:31.read somewhere that the minister he himself had time on a local radio

:46:32. > :46:35.station. I am thinking radio Oxfordshire -- radio oxygen, so I am

:46:36. > :46:40.hoping he doesn't run out of that when he is responding to the debate

:46:41. > :46:47.this afternoon. I also had the great pleasure of visiting the British

:46:48. > :46:51.forces radio in Canada last summer. British forces radio again is

:46:52. > :46:54.important in connecting people's lives and in driving information

:46:55. > :46:59.into places that wouldn't normally have that accessibility. Just giving

:47:00. > :47:03.little personal bits of information that make people feel so much better

:47:04. > :47:08.when they can't necessarily get out of a hospital bed or across parts of

:47:09. > :47:14.the world in order to perhaps put their arms around a loved one. We

:47:15. > :47:21.are taking things slowly. As the right honourable member 40 or they

:47:22. > :47:25.explained, very eloquently, -- for Torbay explained, very eloquently,

:47:26. > :47:32.as he introduced have this debate would go one. I am not technical,

:47:33. > :47:37.but this strikes me as a good idea that we should be supporting today.

:47:38. > :47:40.Today particularly, when we have snow falling outside, I know that

:47:41. > :47:47.the travel news which has been spoken about by other honourable

:47:48. > :47:51.member 's, the fact that our local radio act on such vital conduit for

:47:52. > :47:58.travel news, they also tell us when our schools are open. Today, we

:47:59. > :48:01.have, as I said earlier in the chamber, we have issues along this

:48:02. > :48:06.coast as far as flooding goes. People who aren't necessarily using

:48:07. > :48:10.the Environment Agency's bars to let them know what is going on with

:48:11. > :48:15.flooding locally are going to be listening to local radio which shows

:48:16. > :48:18.its huge importance in our community. Public information is

:48:19. > :48:24.disseminated brilliantly in a way that we need to enable this

:48:25. > :48:27.particular sector of our creative economy and it is part of that

:48:28. > :48:32.creative economy that drives an awful lot of money into this

:48:33. > :48:36.country. We need to enable them to help of volunteers, to help with

:48:37. > :48:42.skills and to build on. Now, today on radio Suffolk, let's see what is

:48:43. > :48:46.the time estimate it is 1:22pm, so Leslie will be entertaining across

:48:47. > :48:52.Suffolk. I have had the pleasure of being on her show and chatting to

:48:53. > :48:59.her. I would like to highlight that on radio Suffolk at the moment,

:49:00. > :49:05.earlier on in the day, Mark Murphy is driving a campaign for no mobile

:49:06. > :49:08.phones whilst you are driving. That is another thing that community

:49:09. > :49:12.radios can do. They can start that campaigning zeal that we all

:49:13. > :49:15.appreciate in this place. No mobiles, because mobiles being used

:49:16. > :49:21.in the car one of the top four causes of death along with seat

:49:22. > :49:27.belts, drink-driving and, oh, somebody might have to help me out.

:49:28. > :49:33.Drink-driving, no seat belts, mobile phones and excessive speed, well

:49:34. > :49:38.done. Once again, the honourable member for Torbay comes to my

:49:39. > :49:44.rescue. We also just heard from the last speaker that local radio,

:49:45. > :49:48.community radio in particular, covers 10,000 local events. The

:49:49. > :49:52.fates that go on. I was recently interviewed by local radio at our

:49:53. > :50:00.fireworks event in Bury St Edmunds but I have also come across them at

:50:01. > :50:05.a plethora of school fares across the country, all sorts of different

:50:06. > :50:09.events, but more importantly they bring ?25 million for charity and is

:50:10. > :50:12.the honourable member for High Peak mentioned, it is often them

:50:13. > :50:17.announcing that an event is going on, driving at Fulwood, getting

:50:18. > :50:19.people to visit, and then getting people to put those contributions

:50:20. > :50:26.into the bucket that actually helps them give another huge community

:50:27. > :50:29.asset. Of course. My right honourable friend is making an

:50:30. > :50:36.exceedingly powerful point and on that note, in this chamber I

:50:37. > :50:46.mentioned a year ago that we might like to light up a monument and the

:50:47. > :50:50.local radio, BBC Somerset, broadcast that and when we turned up in the

:50:51. > :50:56.dark, hundreds of people turned up and they did that because they had

:50:57. > :50:59.heard it on the radio to support my project to light up the local

:51:00. > :51:03.monument simply because they had heard it on the radio. Would my

:51:04. > :51:08.honourable friend agree with me that it is so important? I would

:51:09. > :51:11.certainly agree and I also would congratulate her, as I believe she

:51:12. > :51:14.got the money in the Autumn Statement to reinstate that monument

:51:15. > :51:19.in her constituency. All that we have said in this place about work

:51:20. > :51:23.experience, volunteering and so on, I want to give a particular shout

:51:24. > :51:28.out to a member of my staff who goes home from her day's work here to a

:51:29. > :51:36.community Stadium -- community station in the Harrow area. It

:51:37. > :51:43.operates out of the hospital. The station's I merrily about the

:51:44. > :51:47.community and is run -- run entirely by volunteers. Volunteers spend time

:51:48. > :51:54.with patients on the ward and tailor the shows to their patients. It is a

:51:55. > :51:57.chance for volunteers to gain hands-on experience in a new field

:51:58. > :52:04.of radio broadcasting, with many... Yes, of course. Can I thank my

:52:05. > :52:11.honourable friend for giving way. I am told that BBC radio Hereford and

:52:12. > :52:17.Worcester hasn't appeared in this debate and I want to make sure that

:52:18. > :52:21.that appears in hand side as well. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:52:22. > :52:30.am delighted to get those words written into the -- written into

:52:31. > :52:37.Hansard for the gentleman. It runs fundraising events, brings local

:52:38. > :52:41.news to local people and this is all by volunteering. Now, only yesterday

:52:42. > :52:47.I also heard that radio Caroline, which I am sure probably most

:52:48. > :52:51.members are too young to remember, but radio Caroline have applied to

:52:52. > :52:58.Ofcom to broadcast across East Anglia on AM. Their ship will be

:52:59. > :53:03.moored in the Essex estuary and will only be on DAB in the northern part

:53:04. > :53:07.of our county. It would be good to extend new business ventures and the

:53:08. > :53:13.ability to do it across the piece. Whether it is your news, your music,

:53:14. > :53:17.your travel, your politics or a little bit of something different,

:53:18. > :53:23.because the radio is also your friend, which is, as the Member for

:53:24. > :53:28.High Peak said, I know when I was raising a small family, woman's hour

:53:29. > :53:33.used to mark the time through the day. I know when I was recovering

:53:34. > :53:38.from being quite poorly that the play in the afternoon, I would

:53:39. > :53:43.think, I am nearly at tea-time, and I can remember many of those. I am

:53:44. > :53:53.so sad I take my radio gardening with me as I popped out to pull a

:53:54. > :54:00.few weeks. Only weeds? Only weeds, I vaguely know the difference. A radio

:54:01. > :54:06.is not only a piece of technical equipment. It is also a friend by

:54:07. > :54:10.your side, so I would urge the Minister to take those thoughts on

:54:11. > :54:14.board. I would thank the honourable member from Torbay for bringing this

:54:15. > :54:19.forward. I would look forward to hearing from the Minister that we

:54:20. > :54:23.are now going to, I think the radio termers action stations, and I look

:54:24. > :54:31.forward to supporting this bill. Minister Matthew Hancock. Thank you

:54:32. > :54:37.very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is a pleasure and an honour to be

:54:38. > :54:41.called to the dispatch box to respond to this debate and I first

:54:42. > :54:45.want to put on the record very fulsomely, as everybody else has, my

:54:46. > :54:51.thanks to the Member for Torbay or introducing the broadcasting radio

:54:52. > :54:59.multiplex services Bill 2016 and 17. I thought he gave a great exposition

:55:00. > :55:03.of the bill and set out in good detail what he hopes we can achieve.

:55:04. > :55:09.They also want to put on the record my thanks to the officials in DC and

:55:10. > :55:16.as who have prepared and worked with him on this bill -- in the

:55:17. > :55:21.Department for Culture, Media and Sport who have prepared and worked

:55:22. > :55:24.with him on this bill and have prepared me for this, because we

:55:25. > :55:27.have a dedicated team who cared deeply about radio in this country

:55:28. > :55:31.and I am thankful to them. What I want to do is try to answer directly

:55:32. > :55:38.many of the questions which have been asked throughout the course of

:55:39. > :55:43.the debate and also set out, quite briefly, what is in the bill.

:55:44. > :55:50.Because that part was done so well by my honourable friend at the

:55:51. > :55:54.start, I will be relatively brief. I am grateful to all of those members

:55:55. > :55:59.who have contributed. Maybe we should start with the position of

:56:00. > :56:06.the Labour Party and the front bench opposite. I thought that what may be

:56:07. > :56:12.her maiden performance at length from the dispatch box, the

:56:13. > :56:18.honourable member from tooting was only elected in June and I thought

:56:19. > :56:21.gave a great performance and lots of questions. So impressive was her

:56:22. > :56:29.performance at the dispatch box that I wonder whether she will be opting

:56:30. > :56:36.for a job outside of Parliament soon like an increasing number of her

:56:37. > :56:40.friends. I'm going to be going through... If I go through her

:56:41. > :56:44.questions indeed tell, I thought it was very impressive that the member

:56:45. > :56:52.of tooting started off with more issues. The question of addressing

:56:53. > :56:58.rural areas is a very important one. It has been addressed in the trials.

:56:59. > :57:04.It was addressed in Ofcom's response to the trials. Of course, we are

:57:05. > :57:10.going to go through the technical details that will be to be ordered

:57:11. > :57:13.in a further consultation and I am sure that, especially with her

:57:14. > :57:16.interest in that, and given that this is a piece of legislation

:57:17. > :57:18.supported on all sides, that we will ensure that question is properly

:57:19. > :57:29.answered. On the detailed planning for the

:57:30. > :57:35.frequency plan, she seems to imply that it is not possible to votes for

:57:36. > :57:41.and supported the bill until that is in place, I would caution her

:57:42. > :57:45.against that approach because this has already started, the trials were

:57:46. > :57:49.very positive on the frequency available. Of course the further

:57:50. > :57:54.consultation will address the technical details, but those are a

:57:55. > :57:57.matter for the orders of statutory instruments that followed the bill

:57:58. > :58:01.rather than the principles we are debating today. I would say the same

:58:02. > :58:07.about the comments made by radio Centre and the CMA, these are

:58:08. > :58:11.matters for the regulations. She rightly raise the question of

:58:12. > :58:16.skills. The trial is delivered, and I think the Ofcom report was quite

:58:17. > :58:25.clear, exactly some of the sorts of skills that we should be looking for

:58:26. > :58:30.in this space. She also raise the question of funding, she said it all

:58:31. > :58:33.comes down to funding. I would caution her that although the Labour

:58:34. > :58:37.Party seem to think everything comes down to public funding, we think

:58:38. > :58:41.that human ingenuity is quite impressive. As it happens, we have

:58:42. > :58:46.increased the funding for community radio support in this spending

:58:47. > :58:49.period, increased and guaranteed up to 2020. It is amazing what people

:58:50. > :58:57.can achieve if you give them the permission to do. As my old friend

:58:58. > :59:01.the Torbay set out many times in the course of his speech, this is

:59:02. > :59:05.ultimately a permissive piece of legislation about allowing people to

:59:06. > :59:13.do things that they currently can't. Therefore it is about allowing and

:59:14. > :59:17.unleashing, a further unleashing, of human ingenuity. She asks why this

:59:18. > :59:22.bill and the clauses in it are not part of the Digital Economy Bill.

:59:23. > :59:27.That is perfectly reasonable that we wanted to see the conclusions of the

:59:28. > :59:31.trials before putting it into legislation, and we publish the

:59:32. > :59:35.Digital Economy Bill in the summer but the trials had not concluded at

:59:36. > :59:40.that point so we did not want to put it into that bill. There have been

:59:41. > :59:47.odd noises from opposite about why the Digital Economy Bill Was Not --

:59:48. > :59:51.was not delayed but I do not think we can bring forward the transition

:59:52. > :00:00.to digital in this bill or that one. She also raised the question that

:00:01. > :00:04.has been raised by many others, including one of the members in her

:00:05. > :00:08.place about the question of public only or public and private. I know

:00:09. > :00:12.some of her friends on the front bench opposite think public good,

:00:13. > :00:16.private bad. That is an approach we reject on this side because we think

:00:17. > :00:21.that there can be a contribution from both public and private and

:00:22. > :00:26.this question will be addressed in the consultation. As with other

:00:27. > :00:31.parts of the bill is his permissive on that basis, it does not require

:00:32. > :00:35.either public or private but there is an important balance to be struck

:00:36. > :00:42.that we will address in the consultation which is that

:00:43. > :00:45.ultimately small-scale Digital radio is about enabling communities and

:00:46. > :00:51.community support, you don't want it to be completely gobbled up by large

:00:52. > :00:57.commercial providers for whom there are other options. You want to make

:00:58. > :01:05.sure that there is space for the innovative, for the very small, for,

:01:06. > :01:10.as my honourable friend from Taunton said, I think it was them who said

:01:11. > :01:16.that to be able to start a radio station from your garden shed. And

:01:17. > :01:21.that is what this is all about. So there is a reasonable case for

:01:22. > :01:26.limitation of the commercial element, but there is also a case

:01:27. > :01:30.for very small commercial operations as well, and we will address the

:01:31. > :01:36.balance of those cases in the forthcoming consultation. I hope

:01:37. > :01:42.that addresses the points made on the front bench opposite, I will now

:01:43. > :01:48.address some of the questions asked by other members. The first is the

:01:49. > :01:52.question of how the masts will work and people will get these signals.

:01:53. > :01:58.My honourable friend from severable as to how it would work in practice

:01:59. > :02:03.in terms of these masts. -- my honourable friend from South Ribble

:02:04. > :02:06.an individual radio station to put an individual radio station to put

:02:07. > :02:12.up the mast, the whole point is to have a network of them. The masts

:02:13. > :02:17.can go on the mast is currently used for other things, they can go on

:02:18. > :02:22.buildings and we have just relaxed some of the planning regulations

:02:23. > :02:25.around masts, but she like me represents a rural area and in

:02:26. > :02:32.Suffolk I have the great privilege of opening the local digital mast,

:02:33. > :02:38.which has gone up next to a school in the middle of... In the northern

:02:39. > :02:45.part of Southwark which means we can now get BBC Radio Wales of the con

:02:46. > :02:49.Digital radio. The technology is there, the planning is there to

:02:50. > :02:58.allow for it this -- which means we can now get BBC Radio Suffolk on

:02:59. > :03:02.digital radio. There are ways to start at the radio station without

:03:03. > :03:08.going through the hardware side of putting up your own mast. My

:03:09. > :03:19.honourable friend for Morecambe, a great supporter of radio, he has not

:03:20. > :03:22.only provided insight to this debate but also entertainment, you could

:03:23. > :03:28.say that as well as the music he has provided the lyrics. He made a

:03:29. > :03:33.passionate case about the positive impact of radio during times of

:03:34. > :03:40.distress, particularly during the very serious storms and flooding in

:03:41. > :03:47.his constituency a year or so ago. He paid tribute in particular to his

:03:48. > :03:52.local radio stations in what I thought was a very balanced way. Now

:03:53. > :04:01.there is no reason to think that DAB will be any less reliable and

:04:02. > :04:05.resilient in times of storms, but by allowing for more localised digital

:04:06. > :04:13.content you can get even more local information in times of distress. So

:04:14. > :04:18.I hope he is reassured on that. My honourable friend from Plymouth made

:04:19. > :04:22.the important point about political balance in community radio. Of

:04:23. > :04:29.course all... Anybody Broadcasting House to follow the law of the land

:04:30. > :04:38.is and the PPR a and make sure that their output conforms to what is

:04:39. > :04:45.required. He made the very strong case for radio mostly on the grounds

:04:46. > :04:48.of cricket. I remember well that his son is not only the entire Indian

:04:49. > :04:51.Parliamentary cricket team that the entire rest of the British

:04:52. > :04:59.Parliamentary cricket team by taking a wicket in Darren masala. I'll the

:05:00. > :05:07.recall spending an awful lot of time recovering the ball from the

:05:08. > :05:11.boundary. Yes, of course. I have to say I was deeply

:05:12. > :05:15.surprised, too. My honourable friend might recall that whilst there were

:05:16. > :05:21.250 people in the ground, it was being watched by 19 million people

:05:22. > :05:29.on Indian television. I have no doubt that all 19 million were

:05:30. > :05:35.totally astonished! But it shows that what you might regard as niche

:05:36. > :05:39.broadcasts on in this case a cricket match between the UK and Indian

:05:40. > :05:45.parliaments, many, many people sometimes want to watch.

:05:46. > :05:51.I will give way. I was commentating for the Indian television when my

:05:52. > :05:56.honourable friend took the wickets. Yes, I remember that. I will make

:05:57. > :05:59.this point which is slightly more serious, which is I think there is a

:06:00. > :06:05.reason that 19 million people in India were watching, that is not the

:06:06. > :06:13.quality of the commentary, nor the bowling nor the fielding, it was

:06:14. > :06:15.because there is very heavy regulation on the number of

:06:16. > :06:20.broadcast channels in India, so there was nothing else to watch.

:06:21. > :06:26.Whereas if we put ourselves in the eyes of the viewer or the listener