18/01/2017

:00:00. > :00:14.THE SPEAKER: Order. Urgent question, Paul Scully.

:00:15. > :00:19.Thank you, Mr Speaker, to ask if I can ask the Minster, if he can make

:00:20. > :00:22.a statement on human rights in Burma. THE SPEAKER: Minster from the

:00:23. > :00:27.Foreign Office. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:00:28. > :00:34.Mr Speaker, I know that you your Sevacare very deeply about the

:00:35. > :00:38.situation in -- that you yourself care deeply about the situation in

:00:39. > :00:42.Burma. I'm grateful to my honourable friend for raising this matter in

:00:43. > :00:48.the House. He knows Burma very well and has close family connections

:00:49. > :00:55.there. We have been deeply concerned about the flare up of violence since

:00:56. > :00:58.the attack by unknown assailants, presumed to be militants on 9th

:00:59. > :01:03.October. Whilst we condemned the attack, and recognise the need for

:01:04. > :01:07.security forces to carry out security operations to route out the

:01:08. > :01:11.perpetrators we remain concerned about the conduct of the Army in

:01:12. > :01:14.response. Although restrictions on media, diplomatic and humanitarian

:01:15. > :01:19.access make the facts difficult to ascertain, we have been concerned by

:01:20. > :01:22.numerous reports alleging widespread human rights violations in the

:01:23. > :01:27.security response. Mr Speaker n response to the escalating violence,

:01:28. > :01:31.British ministers have directly lobbied Burmese ministers, the

:01:32. > :01:35.Minister of State for Commonwealth affairs raised the issue with a

:01:36. > :01:38.Minister of Defence when she visited Burma in November last year.

:01:39. > :01:42.Specifically she called for the full and immediate resumption of aid and

:01:43. > :01:48.called for an investigation into allegations of human rights' abuses.

:01:49. > :01:50.I too, repeated those calls with the minister for construction, when he

:01:51. > :01:54.visited the UK in November last year. The Government of Burma has

:01:55. > :01:58.now committed to investigating the 9th October attacks, restoring human

:01:59. > :02:02.rights' access and investigating allegations of human rights abuses.

:02:03. > :02:06.However, in practice, much of the aid is still blocked by local

:02:07. > :02:09.authorities, reporting the military, especially in the area, where

:02:10. > :02:15.security operations continue. We will continue to monitor the

:02:16. > :02:18.situation closely. Turning to the conflict in other areas, we are

:02:19. > :02:24.concerned by the recent escalation of conflict in those two states.

:02:25. > :02:27.This, too, has led to allegations of civilian casualties, widespread

:02:28. > :02:32.displacement of civilians and human rights abuses. We also raised

:02:33. > :02:35.concerns on the violence in north-east Burma directly with

:02:36. > :02:37.Burmese ministers, as I said, we continue to monitor the situation

:02:38. > :02:43.closely and I can tell the House that my right honourable friend, the

:02:44. > :02:46.Foreign Secretary l visit Burma very soon and reiterate our concerns

:02:47. > :02:49.across these issues Thank you, Mr Speaker and thank you to the

:02:50. > :02:56.minister for that response. The first question I asked in this House

:02:57. > :02:59.was about the situation faced by the community there, the Rohinga

:03:00. > :03:03.community. It is frustrating that I return to the subject, following a

:03:04. > :03:08.number of worrying reports of the kind. The last two, of which

:03:09. > :03:13.reportedly involved air strikes and the use of Hovery oar tillry. Since

:03:14. > :03:17.then, a remarkable election victory has taken place. Does the minister

:03:18. > :03:20.agree with me, that although she has a difficult it is a income keeping

:03:21. > :03:25.the Government together, while there is such a huge influence by the

:03:26. > :03:28.ministry. We friends, such as the UK should continue to raise

:03:29. > :03:33.humanitarian issues while so many suffer because of their faith?

:03:34. > :03:37.Tomorrow, foreign ministers of the organisation for Islamic

:03:38. > :03:41.cooperation, an inter-governmental God body of 57 states will meet to

:03:42. > :03:46.discuss the situation there. Will the minister join me and more than

:03:47. > :03:49.40, civil society organisations who have today called for a truly

:03:50. > :03:56.independent, international investigation in a situation in the

:03:57. > :04:00.state, where state-sponsored attacks on the Rohinga Muslims have

:04:01. > :04:03.escalated. It is difficult to get accurate information for what really

:04:04. > :04:09.is happening in the state. So in order to get to the truth, beyond

:04:10. > :04:12.false reports, will he call for full access to indobservers and

:04:13. > :04:19.journalists to villagers and displacement catches? . -- camps.

:04:20. > :04:24.Elsewhere I'm informed that the United Nations special radioer pore

:04:25. > :04:28.tour on human rights there who has been on a 12-play monitorer mission

:04:29. > :04:31.has been denied access to the Government to conflicting areas of

:04:32. > :04:36.the state. Will the minister agree with me that she should be allowed

:04:37. > :04:40.to do her job and bring such issues into the open and finally, will the

:04:41. > :04:46.Foreign Secretary, when he visits Boyer a McThis weekend, raise the

:04:47. > :04:51.situation -- visits Burma this weekend, raise the situation and

:04:52. > :04:53.also with Burmese MPs and the Speaker of the House when they

:04:54. > :04:57.visit, the Burmese delegation visits the UK next week and can he also

:04:58. > :05:02.raise the issue with Bangladesh Government, as well, to see what

:05:03. > :05:05.more can be done on the border with Bangladesh, on a humanitarian

:05:06. > :05:20.response for Rohingas that have been We're deeply concerned at what is

:05:21. > :05:26.happening, and it is difficult to get access to verify the facts. Like

:05:27. > :05:32.him, we are extremely concerned by the violations, the human rights

:05:33. > :05:37.violations reported, and the security response itself. He asked

:05:38. > :05:41.about UK support for an international commission, I assume a

:05:42. > :05:47.UN type commission. A UN led commission of enquiry can be in one

:05:48. > :05:51.of three ways, by the Secretary General, by the Security Council or

:05:52. > :05:53.the human rights Council. Establishing this would require

:05:54. > :05:58.broad international support, which we assessed is not exist in the

:05:59. > :06:05.current international environment. He also asked about the visit, I

:06:06. > :06:10.very much welcome the visit of the UN special repertoire, I'm aware of

:06:11. > :06:13.the fact that she is currently in Burma, and for many years we have

:06:14. > :06:17.supported the annual resolution of the human rights Council that

:06:18. > :06:21.mandates her role. We very much hope that the authorities in Burma will

:06:22. > :06:28.give her full and unimpeded access so she can conduct an assessment. I

:06:29. > :06:35.look forward to reading her report. He has talked about the overall

:06:36. > :06:42.peace process and the aid that we're particularly providing. I can

:06:43. > :06:46.confirm that we are providing aid to refugees, not just to those in the

:06:47. > :06:49.area but also in Bangladesh. I have urged the Bangladeshis meetings I

:06:50. > :06:53.have had, due to the point that we should not have refugees return to a

:06:54. > :07:01.situation where they would face harm. Finally, he made in terms of

:07:02. > :07:05.the Foreign Secretary's visit. The Foreign Secretary will be putting

:07:06. > :07:13.the case from a UK perspective on humanitarian issues strongly, and as

:07:14. > :07:19.far as I'm aware, his intention is to meet the chief of the military

:07:20. > :07:23.and the country's leader. Thank you for granting this urgent question,

:07:24. > :07:27.and I congratulate the honourable member for securing it. All of us

:07:28. > :07:32.including many in this house who have campaigned for years for

:07:33. > :07:35.democracy and an to repression in Myanmar, it is troubling to see

:07:36. > :07:38.evidence that for the progress that is being made, the suppression of

:07:39. > :07:46.the majority Myanmar has been replaced in far too many patients

:07:47. > :07:51.with the -- too many cases with the persecution of minorities. It was

:07:52. > :07:56.shocking to hear of the recent disappearance of Kachin Baptist

:07:57. > :08:01.leaders, who have disappeared. It is incumbent on the government and the

:08:02. > :08:04.international community as a whole, to press the Myanmar authorities to

:08:05. > :08:07.provide information on their whereabouts and secure their

:08:08. > :08:11.immediate freedom. Also deeply concerned about the continuing

:08:12. > :08:18.humanitarian crisis, particularly the recent reports from the United

:08:19. > :08:24.nations and Human Rights Watch, stating that a raft of human rights

:08:25. > :08:29.abuses have taken place including torture, rape and sexual assault.

:08:30. > :08:33.Summary executions and the destruction of mosques and homes.

:08:34. > :08:37.Upholding human rights should be the driving force of our foreign policy,

:08:38. > :08:41.and recall on the government to see Britain's stand up for the rights

:08:42. > :08:44.and freedoms that all human beings are entitled to, and raises concerns

:08:45. > :08:50.as a matter of urgency for the authorities in Myanmar, including

:08:51. > :08:54.the persecution that people are suffering, and a needle for

:08:55. > :09:00.humanitarian access to all areas. I hope the Minister can tell us today

:09:01. > :09:05.-- the need for. Particularly around the access for the UN reported

:09:06. > :09:13.reporter, and how he's planning to make sure that the rights of its

:09:14. > :09:17.people are protected. I think the honourable lady for those comments.

:09:18. > :09:21.Having discussed the situation here previously, I know she cares very

:09:22. > :09:25.deeply about the humanitarian issues in Burma, and I think there is

:09:26. > :09:30.consensus across the house on these matters, Mr Speaker. She raised the

:09:31. > :09:37.issue of the pastors. Many Christians live in areas where there

:09:38. > :09:41.is active conflict, notably in that area. We are of course deeply

:09:42. > :09:48.concerned, specifically by the disappearance of a two pastors,

:09:49. > :09:54.Dumdaw Nawng Lat and Langjaw Gam Seng. And we do believe that there

:09:55. > :09:59.is deep concern about their welfare, and as she noted, they disappeared

:10:00. > :10:02.on Christmas Eve. Allegedly after talking to journalists, taking

:10:03. > :10:08.journalists to see a recently bombed church. We upstage the urge, as does

:10:09. > :10:12.she, the government of Burma to investigate the case immediately and

:10:13. > :10:16.release them. She talked about what the UK Government is doing in terms

:10:17. > :10:21.of lobbying. I noted that the Foreign Secretary will be in Burma

:10:22. > :10:24.soon, he will of course make strong representations on behalf of the UK

:10:25. > :10:27.Government. Apart from representations that I and other

:10:28. > :10:34.Foreign Office ministers have made, could I also add that our ambassador

:10:35. > :10:38.has visited in recent months, and lobbied five separate Burmese

:10:39. > :10:43.ministers on this issue, urging restraint in terms of the security

:10:44. > :10:47.response. Finally, she talked about humanitarian aid, as she will know

:10:48. > :10:52.the UK Government is doing an enormous amount in terms of

:10:53. > :11:03.providing aid in this troubled area. And certainly in terms of a

:11:04. > :11:08.particular error, since 2012 we have provided over ?23 million in him out

:11:09. > :11:15.and assistance -- that particular area, including sanitation and

:11:16. > :11:18.nutrition for several hundred thousand people. When the Foreign

:11:19. > :11:25.Secretary travels to Burma, he will know doubt wish to discuss with

:11:26. > :11:28.leaders the role of, whether it is worthwhile as continuing running

:11:29. > :11:30.some courses for them and the efficacy of those courses, and also

:11:31. > :11:35.whether or not they're continuing to block aid going into some of these

:11:36. > :11:38.errors. Can I urge my honourable friend to intern at the Foreign

:11:39. > :11:43.Secretary that when he does go there, the Foreign Secretary travel

:11:44. > :11:48.to that area to see for himself that situation on the ground, talk to'

:11:49. > :11:53.and come back to his house and updaters as to whether there is now

:11:54. > :12:01.real evidence that there are outside forces stirring up the Rohinga now

:12:02. > :12:05.part of Burma. I think my honourable friend for those comments, and I

:12:06. > :12:08.know that he an expert this area, having been Minister for this part

:12:09. > :12:14.of the world when he is at the Foreign Office. In terms of the

:12:15. > :12:18.Foreign Secretary's visit, as I said, I have set out the key

:12:19. > :12:23.individuals that the Foreign Secretary plans to meet, and clearly

:12:24. > :12:29.we all look forward to his response when he returns to this house. --

:12:30. > :12:34.this House. He talked about the work we may be doing with the military.

:12:35. > :12:37.In terms of training. Can I make clear that any training we undertake

:12:38. > :12:43.has nothing to do with combat training, it is to do with the

:12:44. > :12:46.humanitarian, English-language, and our assessment is that this is a

:12:47. > :12:58.worthwhile thing to be doing in terms of building those links. As he

:12:59. > :13:05.knows full well, the leader is of course in a position in government,

:13:06. > :13:09.but the Army has a role to play and clearly it is the Army acting in

:13:10. > :13:16.these areas whether I humanitarian issues. I congratulate the

:13:17. > :13:20.honourable member for achieving the support and emergency question. The

:13:21. > :13:27.Minister has expressed concern about the disappearance of the two Baptist

:13:28. > :13:31.leaders who apparently forcibly disappeared over Christmas, and also

:13:32. > :13:39.called for unfettered access for the United Nations special envoy. Can he

:13:40. > :13:42.performance -- confirm that specifically these have already been

:13:43. > :13:45.raised with the Burmese ambassador in London, and secondly that the

:13:46. > :13:53.Foreign Secretary will both raise the specific matters in the talks is

:13:54. > :13:56.having in Burma in the next week? Lastly, the minister rather

:13:57. > :14:01.sidestepped the question of action in the UN by saying that the

:14:02. > :14:04.government's opinion wasn't -- was that there wasn't a sufficient

:14:05. > :14:09.consensus at the present time to take forward action. Can he go

:14:10. > :14:12.further than that? When the special reporter returns to the UN and

:14:13. > :14:18.reports, will be undertake on behalf of the government to use every

:14:19. > :14:22.possible effort to build a consensus that can build an urgent and

:14:23. > :14:27.independent United Nations enquiry, a commission which will be the

:14:28. > :14:33.result of the special reporter's visit? Will the government committee

:14:34. > :14:39.trying to build that consensus is exposed -- as opposed to remarking

:14:40. > :14:42.that it doesn't exist? Mr Speaker, he talks about representations that

:14:43. > :14:47.UK Government is and has been making to the Burmese government. As I

:14:48. > :14:53.noted, we have made representations both at ministerial level and

:14:54. > :14:55.ambassador level. He talks about the representations at the Foreign

:14:56. > :15:01.Secretary will make. Clearly, I will ensure and am sure he will be aware

:15:02. > :15:04.of what is said and this house, but I know that the Foreign Secretary

:15:05. > :15:09.cares deeply about Burma, and the fact that he's going out there very

:15:10. > :15:13.soon should give the gentleman a great deal of comfort. He talks

:15:14. > :15:21.about the UN, of course I stated position in terms of UN. We support

:15:22. > :15:25.the UN special reporter, and specifically in terms of the human

:15:26. > :15:29.rights Council, as you know that is again an area where we have been

:15:30. > :15:34.supported, but this is about building multilateral support for

:15:35. > :15:41.actions, and that is where we seek to work together with other

:15:42. > :15:50.partners. Years ago, I organised a debate from Westminster Hall about

:15:51. > :15:54.the persecution of people, a long-standing very serious

:15:55. > :15:57.situation. These people gave us loyalty during the Second World War,

:15:58. > :16:01.and have been repaid with persecution ever since. I wonder

:16:02. > :16:04.what further steps the government can raise about this persecution and

:16:05. > :16:12.ensure their human rights are protected? Mr Speaker, we all care

:16:13. > :16:19.very deeply about human rights wherever they may be affected. And

:16:20. > :16:23.of course, if my right honourable friend wants to write to me, I'll be

:16:24. > :16:27.very happy to take up that specific issue. I make the general point that

:16:28. > :16:30.human rights absolutely happens to -- matters to this house, government

:16:31. > :16:37.and the British people, and that'll be at the forefront everything this

:16:38. > :16:42.office does. Undoubtedly there is reason for concern at the military

:16:43. > :16:49.crackdown on the Rohinga Muslim minority. I understand it has been

:16:50. > :16:53.made clear that she welcomes the international community's support

:16:54. > :16:59.and efforts in seeking peace and stability. And building better

:17:00. > :17:05.relations with communities. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be

:17:06. > :17:14.focusing on that on his visit and also I wonder what... She's on her

:17:15. > :17:26.fifth information gathering visit, is the Foreign Secretary intending

:17:27. > :17:32.to speak with the special reporter? With regard to the Foreign Secretary

:17:33. > :17:35.speaking to her, I will of course make sure that the Foreign Secretary

:17:36. > :17:44.is aware of that request that she has made. But in terms of our

:17:45. > :17:48.ongoing dialogue, she will know that the advisory commission led by Kofi

:17:49. > :17:57.Anand was put in place last year, and they are due to reduce a report

:17:58. > :18:00.this year. -- due to produce. I have been in conversation with Kofi

:18:01. > :18:04.Anand, we have had a number of conversations about the ongoing

:18:05. > :18:06.work. In terms of what we do, in terms of engaging with the

:18:07. > :18:10.international community and others in Burma, I hope she will appreciate

:18:11. > :18:25.that this is a very clear example of an engagement.

:18:26. > :18:31.Does my honourable friend gentlemen the unwelcome radicalisation of the

:18:32. > :18:35.Rohingya was only a question of time. That time was short and needs

:18:36. > :18:41.to be treated appropriately with a sense of urgency.

:18:42. > :18:45.Mr Speaker, we, of course, bring a sense of urgency to all the work we

:18:46. > :18:49.try and do, in relation to human rights. At the end of the day,

:18:50. > :18:52.though, this is a process which has sadly been ongoing for some time, I

:18:53. > :18:57.think this is a question of continuing to work together with

:18:58. > :18:59.international partners and engineers and others in Burma itself and

:19:00. > :19:04.continuing to make those representations. As I said, the

:19:05. > :19:09.Foreign Secretary hopes to meet with the chief of the army when he is in

:19:10. > :19:16.Burma and hopefully will have an opportunity to make our points very

:19:17. > :19:19.clear in that case. I welcome the minister's indication

:19:20. > :19:23.in respect of the Foreign Secretary's visit. Will the Foreign

:19:24. > :19:27.Secretary make it clear when he is in Burma that the interests of this

:19:28. > :19:30.House doesn't just extend to seeing continued transition in rule but to

:19:31. > :19:34.seeing a real transformation in temples rights and the best way for

:19:35. > :19:39.that to begin is credible investigation at an international

:19:40. > :19:41.level, with reliable adherence to any robust recommendations and

:19:42. > :19:52.findings that that investigation brings. Well, yes, Mr speaker, in

:19:53. > :19:55.terms of the of the investigation, I noted the Commission that has been

:19:56. > :20:00.established and led by Kofi Annan will hopefully come forward and set

:20:01. > :20:12.out very clearly their thoughts, as an independent commission, and it is

:20:13. > :20:16.one that we support. Can I talk about thetragedy last week, where

:20:17. > :20:20.4,000 people fled for their lives, particularly women and children who

:20:21. > :20:24.had been moved on before and need unfetterred access to humanitarian

:20:25. > :20:28.aid but particularly again draw attention to the two bapist pastors

:20:29. > :20:32.that surely, they must do all they can, with the UN, to get the

:20:33. > :20:40.information that family members need and not to accept apparently the

:20:41. > :20:44.approved response of "enforced disappearance" which is in contrary

:20:45. > :20:47.to all international human rights. I know my great friend is a great

:20:48. > :20:50.champion of human rights, particularly those of minorities

:20:51. > :20:55.around the world and he puts his point eloquently in terms of the

:20:56. > :21:00.pastors. We'll continue to make representation in terms of specific

:21:01. > :21:03.aid, I did mention that the UK has provided this ?18 million in

:21:04. > :21:10.essential humanitarian and health care systems and that, of course has

:21:11. > :21:16.been in Chachin and northern states as well over the past four years.

:21:17. > :21:20.Could the minister, confirm what discussions he and his department

:21:21. > :21:24.have had with other governments regarding getting medical assistance

:21:25. > :21:30.into the area and if so, could you update on that, please? Mr Speaker,

:21:31. > :21:36.we seek to work, firstly, in terms of the discussions that we have had,

:21:37. > :21:39.with other governments, our ambassador, of course has

:21:40. > :21:42.discussions locally in Burma with our counterparts and in terms of the

:21:43. > :21:47.support that we are getting, I talked about some of the numbers in

:21:48. > :21:51.terms of the amount of money we are spending but also in terms of what

:21:52. > :21:56.that money is being spent on, and of course we seek to work with NGOs and

:21:57. > :22:01.indeed others, on the ground, to make sure that funds are getting

:22:02. > :22:07.through, where they are needed, in these troubled areas.

:22:08. > :22:13.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm sure the minister will agree with me that the

:22:14. > :22:16.gross in seeing improved human rights has been painfully slow in

:22:17. > :22:18.Burma since the election that we hoped to bring far more,

:22:19. > :22:21.particularly with the flawed constitution that still expects. I

:22:22. > :22:25.welcome the Foreign Secretary's visit but can he update House in

:22:26. > :22:28.terms of what engagement we are having with regional partners to

:22:29. > :22:35.build the consensus we need fourth action through the UN? With, Mr

:22:36. > :22:38.Speaker, as I've said on a number of occasions already, we discussed

:22:39. > :22:43.these matters with a range of actors. Of course, international

:22:44. > :22:47.partners but as I said, right now, it is the Kofi Annan commission, the

:22:48. > :22:52.independent Commission which is leading work in this area, and we

:22:53. > :22:57.will continue to have a dialogue with Mr Annan, and look forward to

:22:58. > :23:02.his report. Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I join

:23:03. > :23:08.the minister in paying tribute to your interest and work on behalf of

:23:09. > :23:12.the Burmese people over many years and we all welcome Burma moving out

:23:13. > :23:16.of the long dark years of military dictatorship. But we hopped they put

:23:17. > :23:20.behind them communal and religious conflict as well. So will the

:23:21. > :23:23.minister make very clear to the Burmese authorities that their

:23:24. > :23:28.welcome reentry into the international community will not be

:23:29. > :23:34.helped if they fail to protect minorities and particularly the

:23:35. > :23:37.Rohingya community? Mr Speaker, the right honourable gentleman, of

:23:38. > :23:43.course makes a number of very important points. Can I just say to

:23:44. > :23:49.him that firstly, in terms of the work that is going on, and in terms

:23:50. > :23:54.of what has happened since the election, he will be aware that the

:23:55. > :24:00.new Burmese Government released 300 political prisoners and they did

:24:01. > :24:04.begin the abolition of laws and initiated the peace talks I talked

:24:05. > :24:10.about and revised the committee led by Kofi Annan. I think we have to

:24:11. > :24:14.give a huch amount of credit for Aung San Suu Kyi for the work she

:24:15. > :24:19.has done in he had looking Burma. I agree with him, we need to keep

:24:20. > :24:23.pressing on humanitarian issues and press so the rights of minorities

:24:24. > :24:27.are respected but as he will know, the military does remain heavily

:24:28. > :24:31.involved in Burmese politics and they wrote the 2008 constitution

:24:32. > :24:36.which grants them 25% of seats in Parliament, unelected.

:24:37. > :24:40.Thank you Mr Speaker, the minister earlier said with regards to having

:24:41. > :24:45.an independent UN investigation, into this matter, initially there

:24:46. > :24:49.needs to be a consensus, then the minister said we will work together

:24:50. > :24:52.with others for a consensus but account minister go a step further

:24:53. > :24:56.to the answer he gave to the right how many for Gordon to rather rather

:24:57. > :25:01.than working with others, the UK will lead the way in building that

:25:02. > :25:05.consensus as a permanent members of the United Nations Security Council?

:25:06. > :25:09.Mr Speaker, can I give a specific example in terms of the work we are

:25:10. > :25:13.doing and supporting in terms. U in. There are a number of UN mechanisms

:25:14. > :25:17.already in place, including, as I said earlier the human rights

:25:18. > :25:22.council resolution which we support. This mandates the role of the UN

:25:23. > :25:26.Special Envoy on Burma who is presenting visiting and we look

:25:27. > :25:34.forward to her report. And as I have said already, we call for her to

:25:35. > :25:39.have a full and unfetterred access so she can carry on her work? Given

:25:40. > :25:43.the range of access issues that UN staff and missions have had in

:25:44. > :25:46.recent times, can I ask the minister what discussions the foreign and

:25:47. > :25:48.common wealth office have had with their counterparts in the Security

:25:49. > :25:52.Council to ensure that UN staff are given full and proper access to

:25:53. > :25:58.areas of concern, wherever in the world they may be? Mr Speaker, we

:25:59. > :26:02.discuss these issues in terms of access to humanitarian rights, with

:26:03. > :26:06.count parts, both of course in the UN but on a more by lateral basis as

:26:07. > :26:10.well. Can I give her the assurance that when it comes to these issues,

:26:11. > :26:14.we do keep them at the forefront and we'll continue to make the

:26:15. > :26:19.representations of the type she's asking for. Mr Speaker, Parliament

:26:20. > :26:23.was rightly moved by the House arrest of a single exceptional lady,

:26:24. > :26:27.but as it hasn't been mentioned in this urgent question, the situation

:26:28. > :26:32.of the Rohingya people, hundreds are being attacked, many are being

:26:33. > :26:36.murdered. Their villages are being systematically burnt or destroyed.

:26:37. > :26:41.Many are being sold into slavery with the complicity of Burmese

:26:42. > :26:45.authorities. The very authorities of which treat the Rohingya as a

:26:46. > :26:49.non-people. Now, my honourable friend, the minister, has avoided

:26:50. > :26:52.the challenge from the right honourable member for Gordon and my

:26:53. > :26:57.honourable friend the member for Gillingham that it is not sufficient

:26:58. > :27:02.for the Government to cooperate, the Government needs to lead UN support,

:27:03. > :27:08.if these reports are true. So, for the third time, I ask the minister

:27:09. > :27:12.-- if these reports are true, if the Foreign Secretary comes back from

:27:13. > :27:16.Burma, validating all that has been said, will he, will the Government

:27:17. > :27:19.take leadership of the United Nations to make sure that there is

:27:20. > :27:29.broad support and a resolution to follow? Minister? Mr Speaker, I pray

:27:30. > :27:31.forgiveness if I have given the impression I'm dodging the

:27:32. > :27:35.questions. That has not been my intention at all. The point that I

:27:36. > :27:38.have been speaking is we have to work together with partners to

:27:39. > :27:41.achieve an outcome and that's what we speak to do in this particular

:27:42. > :27:46.case. We continue to do that, I have given that assurance.

:27:47. > :27:50.Mr Speaker, my honourable friend, the member for West Ham and I have

:27:51. > :27:54.been approached by constituents who went to provide help directly to are

:27:55. > :28:00.hingia communities who need it, both in Burma and Bangladesh. He talked

:28:01. > :28:04.about access for NGOs, what routes are currently open for delivering

:28:05. > :28:08.help where it is needed and what advice can he give to those who do

:28:09. > :28:13.want to help people who are suffering such extreme problems at

:28:14. > :28:17.the moment? Mr Speaker, I thank the right honourable gentleman for that

:28:18. > :28:25.particular question. It is the case that this is a very troubled area.

:28:26. > :28:29.And the humanitarian access that has been get through has also been quite

:28:30. > :28:35.limited in some of these areas, what I would say to him if outside this

:28:36. > :28:39.house we can have a discussion on specifics I will be happy to see

:28:40. > :28:45.whether we can take thisser matter forward.

:28:46. > :28:49.In response for a parliamentary committee, the Foreign Office has

:28:50. > :28:54.revealed they have pent ?300,000 and more on training the Burmese army.

:28:55. > :28:59.Wouldn't that be better spent on exposing and verifying human rights'

:29:00. > :29:02.violations? Mr Speaker, I know this question has come up before, but can

:29:03. > :29:05.I confirm once again to the honourable gentleman, that the MoD

:29:06. > :29:10.does not provide combat training, as I said earlier, what we are doing is

:29:11. > :29:13.providing educational training to the Burmese military in the form of

:29:14. > :29:18.programmes delivered by the defence academy of the UK on the role of the

:29:19. > :29:21.military in a democracy, in terms of leadership and English language

:29:22. > :29:26.training and we really do belief this is a useful thing to do in

:29:27. > :29:33.terms of engaging the next generation of army in Burma.

:29:34. > :29:37.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Like other members, I have been contacted by

:29:38. > :29:43.constituents who are deeply concerned by the treatment of the ro

:29:44. > :29:46.hingia community, often described as the world's most persecuted

:29:47. > :29:50.religious minority. What they struggling to understand is why

:29:51. > :29:53.having had years of this persecution taking place the brutality

:29:54. > :29:58.continues. The minister talks about the importance of building consensus

:29:59. > :30:03.within the United Nations, could he perhaps elaborate on what the

:30:04. > :30:06.barriers to consensus are and in particular, what our diplomatic

:30:07. > :30:14.efforts can do, with partners around the world, to break down the

:30:15. > :30:21.barriers? Mr Speaker, I think it is the case that successive governments

:30:22. > :30:25.here raised many issues which are long standing across the world when

:30:26. > :30:29.it comes to humanitarian and other issues. Of course this is another

:30:30. > :30:34.one we'll continue to do. I go back to the point I made earlier. At the

:30:35. > :30:36.end of the day this is about engagement, also will Burma,

:30:37. > :30:39.particularly with the Armed Forces and Armed Forces and I said the

:30:40. > :30:44.Foreign Secretary will hope to meet the army chiefs. What I think we can

:30:45. > :30:50.do is provide the humanitarian support, provide support to the

:30:51. > :30:54.elected Government and continue to have those conversations, in Burma

:30:55. > :30:57.itself, and also through our multilateral partners to make sure

:30:58. > :30:59.we keep this at the forefront, not just internationally but also in

:31:00. > :31:07.Burma. Can I commend you for the interest

:31:08. > :31:13.in this subject and bring it to the forefront of our man's everyday --

:31:14. > :31:20.our minds. In the last few months, the Burmese government have images

:31:21. > :31:24.for new laws for race and religion. Unfortunately, those laws were made

:31:25. > :31:28.to protect, but instead of protecting they have built

:31:29. > :31:32.unsurmountable hurdles for convergence and mixed marriages.

:31:33. > :31:35.Would the Minister agree that the disappearance of the two ministers

:31:36. > :31:43.is an indication of the daily horrors faced, and can he outline

:31:44. > :31:49.what representations have made on behalf of Christians? Freighter at

:31:50. > :31:55.the very name of Jesus? Responded to -- afraid to utter. The honourable

:31:56. > :32:01.gentleman made some powerful interventions, I know he cares very

:32:02. > :32:05.deeply about minorities, in particular the Christian community.

:32:06. > :32:10.We continue to make the case, both to the Burmese government, but also

:32:11. > :32:13.in an international forum, that these matters are absolutely vital,

:32:14. > :32:18.and that we need to make sure that there is no persecution of

:32:19. > :32:21.minorities of Christians, of any type of minorities in that country,

:32:22. > :32:25.and we'll keep doing that. I think it's important that we have this

:32:26. > :32:30.kind of debate in this House now, because it shows the international

:32:31. > :32:37.community that we care very deeply the whole House about this matter.

:32:38. > :32:42.The Burmese government's commission to investigate human rights

:32:43. > :32:46.violations against Rohingya found that there was insufficient evidence

:32:47. > :32:51.of human rights violations, which quite frankly I find given that they

:32:52. > :32:55.are continue to be one of the most persecuted communities. Can the

:32:56. > :32:59.Minister macro tell me what direct conversations he has had with the

:33:00. > :33:07.Burmese government to challenge the accuracy of this ridiculous report?

:33:08. > :33:12.Mr Speaker, I agree with the honourable gentleman. We've also

:33:13. > :33:17.noted the interim that has been produced, and as he has intimated,

:33:18. > :33:21.it indicates that they human rights abuses have taken place. And this is

:33:22. > :33:24.of course against the weight of testimony from a range of human

:33:25. > :33:28.rights sources, frankly this is not credible. We call on the commission

:33:29. > :33:31.to demonstrate the commitment made by the government to an impartial

:33:32. > :33:36.investigation over the coming weeks. Of course, we wait to see what the

:33:37. > :33:43.final report says, but I agree with him. The report needs to be credible

:33:44. > :33:46.for anyone to take it seriously. Could I take this opportunity, I

:33:47. > :33:51.went been the chamber tomorrow, I know you'll miss me, Mr Speaker. --

:33:52. > :33:58.I won't. I know it's your birthday, so if I could wish you an early

:33:59. > :34:02.happy birthday for tomorrow. Since the Bernie 's security forces

:34:03. > :34:12.started their campaign in October -- the Burmese, it is estimated that

:34:13. > :34:15.65,000 treble Muslims have fled. According to reports, there have

:34:16. > :34:19.been subject to arson, rape and murder at the hands of the military

:34:20. > :34:22.-- Rohingya Moslems. These allegations are incredibly serious,

:34:23. > :34:26.and it is for that reason I ask the Minister for the fourth time I

:34:27. > :34:29.believe, if he will continue to call for the establishment of an

:34:30. > :34:41.independent investigation into these claims. May I also wish you a happy

:34:42. > :34:46.birthday for tomorrow. I mean that most sincerely. Can I just respond

:34:47. > :34:50.to the honourable lady. I hope, Mr Speaker, I have made clear today

:34:51. > :34:54.that there are a huge number of avenues that we in the UK are

:34:55. > :34:58.pursuing, in terms of getting humanitarian aid, making the case

:34:59. > :35:02.for minorities, and actually making it very clear that we care very

:35:03. > :35:05.deeply about these matters. At the end of the day, that is something we

:35:06. > :35:11.will keep doing. Going back to this point about the approach from a UN

:35:12. > :35:15.perspective. There are a number of errors that the UN is already

:35:16. > :35:19.engaged, and will continue to work with those -- number of areas, to

:35:20. > :35:25.make sure that those resolution in this very troubled area. Mr Speaker,

:35:26. > :35:29.can he say what discussions he has had or will have with the government

:35:30. > :35:33.of Bangladesh about the refugee status of the Rohingya people, who

:35:34. > :35:44.have fled in many cases the most obscene violence in the state? I

:35:45. > :35:47.have raised the issue of the Rohingya in Bangladesh with the

:35:48. > :35:53.representatives of the Bangladeshi government before Christmas. As I

:35:54. > :35:56.said, the point that I particularly made to the government of Bangladesh

:35:57. > :36:01.was that they should not be seeking to return people who are seeking

:36:02. > :36:07.refuge back into danger. That is a really important point. In terms of

:36:08. > :36:12.aid, we're providing, the UK is the largest provider of food aid to the

:36:13. > :36:21.34,000 Rohingya refugees already living in camps in Bangladesh, and

:36:22. > :36:29.since 2014, the UK has provided nearly ?80 million -- ?8 million to

:36:30. > :36:33.the refugees and the communities that support them. I apologise for

:36:34. > :36:40.not being here in the beginning. I was meant to be in Burma this week

:36:41. > :36:44.with the mess was -- Westminster foundation. It has been delayed

:36:45. > :36:51.until May. They indicated 92 different parties other than the two

:36:52. > :36:54.main parties. With the Minister look at how someone like myself from

:36:55. > :37:01.Northern Ireland, the difficulties we've had there, we can look at how

:37:02. > :37:05.we can help some of those parties work together and the military learn

:37:06. > :37:10.to respect them, so that we find a way forward? Could be a great help

:37:11. > :37:14.to the Westminster -- if the Westminster foundation for democracy

:37:15. > :37:17.could have some help. I'm very happy to speak with a gentleman out of

:37:18. > :37:23.this debate about the work doing with the Westminster foundation. In

:37:24. > :37:30.terms of the discussions we are having, at the end of the day it is

:37:31. > :37:35.someone who is effectively leading the government, and we have contact

:37:36. > :37:41.with her. The Foreign Secretary of meat are soon on his visit to Burma

:37:42. > :37:46.with all the actors, particularly with our ambassador. -- to meet her

:37:47. > :37:49.soon. The key thing is engagement with military, at the end of the day

:37:50. > :37:54.they are the ones who are leading some of the issues, we have

:37:55. > :38:03.concerns, and I think it was vital that we engage. Order. Ten minute

:38:04. > :38:08.rule motion, Joan Ryan. I beg to move that leave the given to bring

:38:09. > :38:12.in a bill to require the Secretary of State to promote the

:38:13. > :38:15.establishment of an international fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace,

:38:16. > :38:25.to support coexistence projects and civil society programmes. Recent

:38:26. > :38:30.weeks has seen a flurry of activity on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

:38:31. > :38:33.The UN Security Council resolution and major speech by the US Secretary

:38:34. > :38:37.of State John Kerry and a further peace conference in Paris last

:38:38. > :38:41.weekend. The barriers to add two state solution are well-known. As a

:38:42. > :38:46.strong friend of Israel, I admit freely but great regret that these

:38:47. > :38:51.include the expansion of settlements on the West Bank. Settlement

:38:52. > :38:57.building is wrong. It threatens the viability of a future Palestinian

:38:58. > :39:00.state. The case for which is an arguable. It does immense damage to

:39:01. > :39:05.Israel's standing in the world, and over time it will put at risk that

:39:06. > :39:11.which is most precious about Israel's character, its Jewish and

:39:12. > :39:14.democratic character. As Secretary Kerry is stated clearly, settlements

:39:15. > :39:20.are not the whole, or even the primary cause of this conflict. So

:39:21. > :39:23.too is the incitement tolerated and in many cases perpetrated by the

:39:24. > :39:28.Palestinian authorities. The payment of salaries to those convicted of

:39:29. > :39:33.terrorist offences, and the naming of schools, streets and sports

:39:34. > :39:37.tournament after so-called martyrs, thereby glorifying violence. Then

:39:38. > :39:42.there is the greatest barrier of all, the rejectionist, anti-Semitic

:39:43. > :39:48.ideology of high Mass, Hezbollah and Iran, which denies Israel's very

:39:49. > :39:55.right to exist, and the terrorism which inevitably flows from it -- of

:39:56. > :39:59.Hamas. I believe it will help to address of the pernicious

:40:00. > :40:03.consequences arising from them. Instead, my Bill recognises that as

:40:04. > :40:07.example of Northern Ireland taught us, any peace process needs a

:40:08. > :40:12.political dimension, and economic dimension and a civil society to

:40:13. > :40:17.dimension. Coexistence projects that bring together Israelis and

:40:18. > :40:21.Palestinians to advance the cause of mutual understanding, reconciliation

:40:22. > :40:27.trust is that civil society dimension. The world has paid too

:40:28. > :40:31.little attention investing only around ?37 million per year in

:40:32. > :40:36.people to people projects for Israel and Palestine. That is less than ?4

:40:37. > :40:41.for each Israeli and Palestinian person each year. Britain

:40:42. > :40:48.exemplifies this problem. From spending a pitiful ?150,000 on

:40:49. > :40:50.coexistence projects in 2015 and 2016, the government despite

:40:51. > :40:54.repeated warm words to the contrary appears to have cut this funding

:40:55. > :40:59.altogether, in the current financial year. -- 2015-2016. I'm pleased that

:41:00. > :41:03.the Secretary of State for International Development seems keen

:41:04. > :41:07.to right this wrong. The absence of strong constituencies for peace in

:41:08. > :41:15.Israel and Palestine is one of the results. Polling by the Israeli

:41:16. > :41:18.democracy Institute and Palestinian Centre for policy and survey

:41:19. > :41:23.research last summer underlined the scale of the problem. While 59% of

:41:24. > :41:27.Israelis and 51% of Palestinians still support a two state solution,

:41:28. > :41:33.these already slim majorities are fragile, threatened by fear and

:41:34. > :41:38.distrust between the two peoples. 89% of Palestinians believe Israeli

:41:39. > :41:50.dues are untrustworthy, feeling reciprocated by 60% of the latter --

:41:51. > :41:53.Israeli dues. 45% of Palestinians fear Israeli dues. We should not

:41:54. > :41:58.place our heads in the optimism of the young. After all, this is the

:41:59. > :42:01.generation which has no memory of the optimism engendered by the Oslo

:42:02. > :42:06.accords, but his formative years have instead been marked by suicide

:42:07. > :42:12.bombings, and perpetual conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

:42:13. > :42:15.Even where the peace process in better health -- were the peace

:42:16. > :42:19.process, these would hardly be the most solid foundations upon which to

:42:20. > :42:23.build a lasting peace. We should recall that those seeds of the Good

:42:24. > :42:28.Friday agreement were sown at a cinema, inauspicious moment, when

:42:29. > :42:32.during the height of the Troubles, the International fund for Ireland

:42:33. > :42:41.was created -- at a similar inauspicious moment. Investment in

:42:42. > :42:45.grass-roots coexistent work has been spent in Northern Ireland. Over 5000

:42:46. > :42:49.projects have been supported since it was established to promote

:42:50. > :42:53.economic and social advance, and to encourage contact, dialogue and

:42:54. > :42:58.reconciliation between nationalists and unionists throughout Ireland.

:42:59. > :43:01.That investment helped provide popular support, which has helped

:43:02. > :43:05.sustain the Good Friday agreement over nearly two decades. With this

:43:06. > :43:10.example in mind, my Bill requires the government to promote the

:43:11. > :43:13.establishment of the proposed international fund for

:43:14. > :43:16.Israeli-Palestinian peace. This has been designed by the Alliance for

:43:17. > :43:21.middle East peace, a coalition of over 90 organisations building

:43:22. > :43:25.people to be a book operation, and coexistence. The fund aims to

:43:26. > :43:31.leveraged and increase public and private contributions worldwide,

:43:32. > :43:33.funding civil Society projects and joint economic development that

:43:34. > :43:40.promote coexistence, peace and reconciliation. It is envisaged that

:43:41. > :43:44.the $200 million per year fund, four times the current level of

:43:45. > :43:50.international support, for people to people work in Israel Palestine,

:43:51. > :43:54.would receive contributions of approximately 25% each from the

:43:55. > :43:57.United States, Europe, the rest of the international community

:43:58. > :44:01.including the Arab world, and the private sector. The fund is not, I

:44:02. > :44:06.should emphasise, intended to receive support that otherwise would

:44:07. > :44:12.be provided directly to either the Palestinian authority, or to Israel.

:44:13. > :44:15.We know that coexistence projects in Israel Palestine work. After two

:44:16. > :44:21.decades, there is now a significant body of evidence based on academic

:44:22. > :44:25.and government evaluations, indicating the impact that

:44:26. > :44:30.coexistence projects can have. The impact moreover has been achieved in

:44:31. > :44:34.the face of considerable challenges. According to the USA, those

:44:35. > :44:38.participating in people to people programmes report higher levels of

:44:39. > :44:44.trust, co-operation, more conflict Revolution values -- resolution

:44:45. > :44:48.values and less aggression and loneliness. Evaluation of individual

:44:49. > :44:53.programmes and alliances impact. A truly inspiring project which brings

:44:54. > :44:57.together young Israelis and Palestinians to learn about it

:44:58. > :45:01.technology and entrepreneurship found a 60% increase in the number

:45:02. > :45:07.of students who valued working with someone from the other side after

:45:08. > :45:10.just one year on the programme. The parents circle friends for common

:45:11. > :45:15.organisation of more than 600 Palestinian and Israeli families who

:45:16. > :45:21.have lost a family member in the conflict found that 70% of all

:45:22. > :45:27.participants had increased trust and empathy, and 84% were motivated to

:45:28. > :45:33.participate in peace building activities in their communities. I

:45:34. > :45:38.would ask if they could point anything in their current funding

:45:39. > :45:41.that has moved the conflict closer to resolution's if coexistence work

:45:42. > :45:45.is going to be held to a standard that demand that it demonstrates how

:45:46. > :45:50.it helps solve the conflict, then surely other strategies that have

:45:51. > :45:51.not by themselves moved the ball Ford should be held to the same

:45:52. > :46:03.standard? -- the ball forward. Support is growing and Cros

:46:04. > :46:09.international boundaries and political parties. The quaur Tote's

:46:10. > :46:13.quartet's most recent report recommended a focus on civil society

:46:14. > :46:16.work since the first time since its finding. The Vatican, Jewish

:46:17. > :46:22.organisations and politicians on both left and right in Israel have

:46:23. > :46:29.all raised their voices in support. On Capitol Hill, two US Congressman,

:46:30. > :46:33.have worked across party lines, introducing a bill in support of the

:46:34. > :46:38.international fund nshgts best traditions of US global leadership.

:46:39. > :46:43.In this House, 56 of my Labour colleagues, signed an open letter to

:46:44. > :46:44.the Secretary of State for International Development, last

:46:45. > :46:49.month, endorsing the fund and I'm delighted today to have the support

:46:50. > :46:52.of members from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties. I'm

:46:53. > :46:59.particularly pleased to have the right honourable member for

:47:00. > :47:02.Brentford and Ongar, the Chairman of Conservative Friends of Israel,

:47:03. > :47:13.listed as one of the support Is of this bill. The late Shimon Peres

:47:14. > :47:17.once said, "The way it make peace is not through government, it is

:47:18. > :47:21.through people." He knew even in the most challenging of times, we must

:47:22. > :47:27.never give up on the search for peace. By supporting my Bill, the

:47:28. > :47:31.House can underline its support for that search.

:47:32. > :47:35.Hear, hear. THE SPEAKER: Order, the question is

:47:36. > :47:43.in fact right honourable member have leave to bring in the Bill? As many

:47:44. > :47:48.of that opinion say aye. . Aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have T

:47:49. > :47:56.who will prepare and bring in the Bill? Mr Speaker, Ian Austin, Right

:47:57. > :48:02.Honourable Alistair car mikele, Chris Davy, Mrs Lieu weighs he

:48:03. > :48:10.willman,p Steven kinic. Right Honourable, Sir Eric Pickles, Will,

:48:11. > :48:17.Quins, Paul Skully, Stephen Twigg and myself, Sir. -- Louise Elman,

:48:18. > :48:51.Stephen Kinnock. Promotion of Israeli-Palestinian

:48:52. > :48:55.peace United Kingdom participation Bill. Second reading, what day? 24th

:48:56. > :49:02.March, Sir. 24th March. Thank you. Order. We now

:49:03. > :49:06.come to the general debate on exiting the European Union and

:49:07. > :49:12.security law enforcement and criminal justice.

:49:13. > :49:17.To move the motion, I call the Minster. Minster of State, Mr

:49:18. > :49:23.Brandon Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I do beg

:49:24. > :49:27.to move that this House has considered exiting the EU and

:49:28. > :49:31.security, law enforcement and criminal justice within that. I'm

:49:32. > :49:34.pleased to introduce today's debate on security, law enforcement and

:49:35. > :49:37.criminal justice, which is one of a number of debates we'll be having

:49:38. > :49:42.about our exit from the European Union. It is important that members

:49:43. > :49:49.of this House have the opportunity to discuss and debate leaving the

:49:50. > :49:52.EU. The Prime Minister underlined the importance of Parliament's

:49:53. > :49:55.involvement in exit negotiations in her speech yesterday. This

:49:56. > :49:59.afternoon, members have the chance to debate an area of our

:50:00. > :50:03.relationship with the EU that is crucial. Not only to our

:50:04. > :50:08.negotiations, but to continued safety of both Europe, ourselves and

:50:09. > :50:14.the citizens across Europe and the United Kingdom. This debate will

:50:15. > :50:17.focus on how we work with the EU on security, law enforcement and

:50:18. > :50:23.criminal justice now, and how we will work with our EU partners in

:50:24. > :50:27.the future. Cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism was one

:50:28. > :50:33.of the Government's core negotiating objectives. The UK is leaving the EU

:50:34. > :50:38.but as we have been clear, we are not leaving Europe. We are committed

:50:39. > :50:43.to strong cooperation on security, law enforcement and criminal justice

:50:44. > :50:47.now, and after we leave. We will work with our European partners, to

:50:48. > :50:51.find solutions which promote security across Europe, and beyond.

:50:52. > :50:57.The decision of the British people to leave the European Union does not

:50:58. > :51:00.altar the duty that we and all Member States share collectively to

:51:01. > :51:06.keep our citizens safe and to present our democratic way of life,

:51:07. > :51:13.and the rule of law. In the face of the common threats we face from

:51:14. > :51:16.terrorism, cyber attacks and who is Isle foreign actors, maintaining

:51:17. > :51:19.strong EU-UK security operation is vital to our collective success in

:51:20. > :51:23.keeping citizens safe. It is difficult to see how it would be in

:51:24. > :51:28.anyone's interests for exit negotiations to result in a

:51:29. > :51:30.reduction in the effectiveness of security, law enforcement and

:51:31. > :51:35.criminal justice cooperation. I give way to the right honourable

:51:36. > :51:37.gentleman. I'ms grateful to the minister for giving away and I have

:51:38. > :51:42.nothing to disagree with in respect of what he said so far. On this

:51:43. > :51:45.issue, we are leaders in Europe, as far as cooperation on security and

:51:46. > :51:51.justice. But does he awe gree with me, one of the most important

:51:52. > :51:57.aspects of this is information sharing and access to ECRAS should

:51:58. > :52:01.be one of the key elements of our negotiations, to be able to to reach

:52:02. > :52:06.those criminal records of those who committed offences in the rest of

:52:07. > :52:12.Europe, and to share information of those who commit those offences in

:52:13. > :52:13.our country. Well, I appreciate the right honourable gentleman's

:52:14. > :52:18.agreement with my position, so far, in this debate. He makes an

:52:19. > :52:22.important point. I will come very specifically to that. There is an

:52:23. > :52:28.issue around my understanding, which we all do in this House, that we

:52:29. > :52:31.live in a world of global work and people work in cross borders,

:52:32. > :52:36.particularly in criminality that we need to be well-equipped to do with.

:52:37. > :52:39.Criminality and terrorism is transnational and international

:52:40. > :52:43.groups exploit you will have nerments such as inadequate law

:52:44. > :52:47.enforcement and criminal justice struck you are toos. Threats we are

:52:48. > :52:53.facing, cybercrime which is moving quickly or online child sexual

:52:54. > :52:56.exploitation, are by definition, international in a technologically

:52:57. > :53:00.connected world. The UK's crime agencies, most recent public

:53:01. > :53:03.estimate suggests there are over 6,000 organised crime groups seeking

:53:04. > :53:09.to operate in the United king do. I give way. I'm grateful. Could he

:53:10. > :53:11.give me some reassurance on the issue of the European arrest

:53:12. > :53:14.warrant. Because, before the last election there was a debate in this

:53:15. > :53:18.House when the current Prime Minister, then the Home Secretary,

:53:19. > :53:21.was fighting very hard to get that European arrest warrant through this

:53:22. > :53:25.House in the face of some Opposition from some members. Could he give me

:53:26. > :53:30.an independencation that he will zur the powers of that arrest warrant,

:53:31. > :53:32.post-Brexit? -- that he will secure. I'm sure the right honourable

:53:33. > :53:35.gentleman will be very awhich are that we are at the start of

:53:36. > :53:40.negotiations. I can't predict the outcome of where we will end up but

:53:41. > :53:43.I will come specifically to the European arrest warrant and the

:53:44. > :53:48.implication it is has for us in a few moments. Criminal networks are

:53:49. > :53:54.driving migrant struggling. Europol estimate more than 09% of migrants

:53:55. > :53:59.travelling to the EU use facilitators, in most cases provided

:54:00. > :54:03.by criminal groups with an estimated turnover of ?3 to 6 billion in 2015.

:54:04. > :54:07.As I said to the honourable gentleman we are at the beginning of

:54:08. > :54:10.a complex process to agree a new relationship with the EU. This is

:54:11. > :54:14.new territory for both sides and it is way too early to say exactly what

:54:15. > :54:18.that relationship will look like but I'm sure there will be many, varied

:54:19. > :54:22.views expressed from around the chamber today and in the months

:54:23. > :54:27.ahead but I am confident that nobody will argue against the importance of

:54:28. > :54:33.fighting cross-border crime and depending security across Europe. I

:54:34. > :54:36.am happy to give way. Perhaps to reinforce that point,

:54:37. > :54:40.will he concede that what we are actually talking about is a system

:54:41. > :54:44.of European criminal justice cooperation. Much of this is about

:54:45. > :54:48.practical cooperation and information-sharing and does not

:54:49. > :54:51.actually largely, touch about the substantive criminal law of the

:54:52. > :54:56.stants sometimes extends beyond Member States of the European Union?

:54:57. > :54:59.Doesn't that reinforce the importance of this practical point?

:55:00. > :55:02.My honourable friend, as ever makes a really important point. He is

:55:03. > :55:06.absolutely right in what he says. Not least of all that in some of

:55:07. > :55:09.these organisations such as Europol, there are members and countries who

:55:10. > :55:13.are involved with Europol who are not part of the European Union,

:55:14. > :55:16.highlighting how they see the importance of make sure we are

:55:17. > :55:20.scaring information in an efficient and were active way to fight crime.

:55:21. > :55:25.It is absolutely right we work to ensure we protect that ability.

:55:26. > :55:31.Whatever shape our future relationship se. Takes, I hope that

:55:32. > :55:34.we can all agree it should knot compromise the safety of the people

:55:35. > :55:37.in the UK or the rest of Europe. I'm most grateful to my honourable

:55:38. > :55:41.friend for giving way. He will be aware that one of the consequences

:55:42. > :55:45.of leaving the European Union, as the Prime Minister has indicated, is

:55:46. > :55:49.that we withdraw from, as she puts it, from the jurisdiction of the

:55:50. > :55:55.European Court of Justice. But as he will be aware, many of these justice

:55:56. > :56:06.cooperation functions, ultimately, come under the you jurisdiction of

:56:07. > :56:09.the European Court. And I have to say that I find it difficult to

:56:10. > :56:11.understand what arrangement the government has in mind to address

:56:12. > :56:14.this issue, whether it wishes to have a separate tribunal system set

:56:15. > :56:18.up in order to apply the rules. Or what it envisages. Because,

:56:19. > :56:21.otherwise, even for states which are outside the EU, the ECJ is in fact

:56:22. > :56:27.very important in the rulings it gives on these key areas of security

:56:28. > :56:30.cooperation. Well, I do appreciate the point that

:56:31. > :56:35.my right honourable friend makes. And one of the pieces of work we are

:56:36. > :56:40.doing as we go through the negotiations is to make sure we get

:56:41. > :56:44.something that is bespoke for the United Kingdom. One of the things we

:56:45. > :56:50.have to do is look at what other countries have done, and other

:56:51. > :56:54.countries who work with Europol and the United States, are good example

:56:55. > :56:59.who are not members of the EU but have found ways to work with us.

:57:00. > :57:03.These are examples we can look at but we need to develop a bespoke

:57:04. > :57:05.system for the UK. In her speech yesterday, the Prime Minister set

:57:06. > :57:07.out what the Government's negotiation objectives are for

:57:08. > :57:09.Brexit. She explained how this Government plans it make Britain

:57:10. > :57:12.stronger and fair, restoring self-determination whilst becoming

:57:13. > :57:16.more global and international in action and spirit. We do have a long

:57:17. > :57:21.record of playing a leading role within Europe and globally to

:57:22. > :57:25.support and drive cooperation to help protect sit zences and depend

:57:26. > :57:28.democratic values and we have been lead programme Popents of

:57:29. > :57:30.development of a number of law enforcement criminal justice

:57:31. > :57:34.measures that are now in place across the European Union. Yesterday

:57:35. > :57:37.the Prime Minister also reiterated that while June's referendum was a

:57:38. > :57:42.vote to leave the EU, it was not a vote to leave Europe. We want to

:57:43. > :57:46.continue to be reliable partners, willing Allies and close friends

:57:47. > :57:50.within the European countries. On a practical level there, has been no

:57:51. > :57:54.immediate change to how we work with the EU following the referendum. As

:57:55. > :57:58.a recent decision, just before Christmas, to seek to opt into the

:57:59. > :58:01.new legislative framework for Europol, the EU policing agency,

:58:02. > :58:05.demonstrates. The UK will remain a member of the EU, with all rights

:58:06. > :58:09.and obligations that membership entails, until we leave. The way we

:58:10. > :58:14.work with the EU, of course, will have to change once we leave. And we

:58:15. > :58:17.must now plan for what our new relationship will look like. The

:58:18. > :58:21.views members express here today will be helpful in that regard and

:58:22. > :58:26.no doubt so will the right honourable gentleman's. I'm grateful

:58:27. > :58:32.to the minister for giving way. I want to follow up the incredibly

:58:33. > :58:37.important question posed by the right honourable member for, because

:58:38. > :58:42.we are the proud authors of human rights in Europe. It's a tradition

:58:43. > :58:45.that dates back to the McIn a car ta. Will he confirm, when the

:58:46. > :58:52.Government brings forward its proposals on a British biff rights,

:58:53. > :58:57.there'll be nothing in that draft for discussion, that will propose us

:58:58. > :59:01.leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, or the European Court

:59:02. > :59:05.on human rights? Well, I appreciate that the right honourable gentleman

:59:06. > :59:08.tempts me to give a running commentary and prejudge the outcome

:59:09. > :59:12.of the negotiations and work in a couple of years ahead, which I will

:59:13. > :59:17.resist but I will say to him, while we remain a member of the EU, we do

:59:18. > :59:20.recognise the jurisdiction obviously of the European Court of Justice,

:59:21. > :59:25.over the measures we've opted into. It is too early it spk late at this

:59:26. > :59:29.stage on exactly what our relation with the European Court of Justice

:59:30. > :59:32.will be after we leave the EU. -- speculate. That is work that will be

:59:33. > :59:36.done as we go forward. I have spoken to several counts parts in Europe,

:59:37. > :59:40.as has the Home Secretary and many colleagues across Government and I

:59:41. > :59:42.have to say in the coveringses I have had with colleagues across

:59:43. > :59:46.Europe, I have been encouraged by their view that it is essential to

:59:47. > :59:50.find a way for our shared work on security to continue. But we do have

:59:51. > :59:54.questions that we need to work through answering about how that

:59:55. > :59:57.should happen in practice. Will th will be complex and subject to

:59:58. > :00:01.negotiation. But we are committed to finding a way forward that works

:00:02. > :00:05.both for the UK and the European Union. And Home Office is working

:00:06. > :00:08.with departments, such as my honourable friend, who will be

:00:09. > :00:12.closing the debate today, across Whitehall to analyse a full range of

:00:13. > :00:15.options for future cooperation. We are also liaising with our

:00:16. > :00:19.colleagues, closely in a devolved administration. It is crucial to

:00:20. > :00:22.make sure that we have a way that goes forward, working for all of the

:00:23. > :00:26.EU. And we are drawning on the

:00:27. > :00:29.invaluable flooint experience of operational partners such as the

:00:30. > :00:32.national crime agency and Crown Prosecution Service. I'm grateful to

:00:33. > :00:36.the ongoing contributions from all those organisations. This work is

:00:37. > :00:39.being drawn together with the support of our colleague in the

:00:40. > :00:43.department for exiting the EU and will form part of our wider exit

:00:44. > :00:48.negotiation strategy. I'll make progress.

:00:49. > :00:56.A number of legal agreements. Or tools. They provide the framework

:00:57. > :01:01.for practical cooperation arrangements and information sharing

:01:02. > :01:08.mechanisms which were mentioned today. As well as supporting

:01:09. > :01:12.cross-border traditional and more enforcement, they include measures

:01:13. > :01:18.such as the European West warrant, prisoner transfer arrangements --

:01:19. > :01:23.European arrest warrant. They are designed to protect the rights of

:01:24. > :01:27.defendants and vulnerable across borders, facilitated major

:01:28. > :01:31.cooperation, support, practical processes for fighting cross-border

:01:32. > :01:35.crime and delivering justice. And yes, we have been leading proponents

:01:36. > :01:39.of a development of a number of security measures in the EU, backed

:01:40. > :01:42.by proportion safeguards. Leaving the EU does not mean we are walking

:01:43. > :01:45.away from this close cooperation with our nearest neighbours. I have

:01:46. > :01:50.to give waste of your I'm grateful to the Minister for giving way,

:01:51. > :01:58.because I'm now looking a durable's website, which starts with phrase"

:01:59. > :02:02.we do this by assisting European union member states in their fight

:02:03. > :02:08.against serious organised crime" so I would like to know from the

:02:09. > :02:12.minister, what are the negotiating terms for us to still access to pot

:02:13. > :02:17.if we are not a member state? If he has a look further into the Europol

:02:18. > :02:22.website, there are associate member state are ready, such as the United

:02:23. > :02:27.States. Treble is just one example, but I'll come to it specifically in

:02:28. > :02:30.a few moments -- Europol is. The toolkit has evolved over many years,

:02:31. > :02:33.in response to changes both in the nature of the EU and international

:02:34. > :02:37.security threats and the increased movement of people across borders.

:02:38. > :02:44.The Justice and home affairs. Decision in 2014 gave us the

:02:45. > :02:50.opportunity to re-evaluate certain measures to the UK pre-20 14. But

:02:51. > :02:55.provides a useful reference point, it is important to be clear that the

:02:56. > :02:59.situation following the outcome of a referendum is now different. We will

:03:00. > :03:04.no longer be a member of the EU, to state the obvious. Unlike the 2014

:03:05. > :03:08.decision, the question now is not whether we seek to rejoin certain

:03:09. > :03:13.measures as a member state. Instead, we have to consider how we should

:03:14. > :03:16.interact with the EU security law enforcement, criminal justice

:03:17. > :03:21.toolkit from outside the EU. We are considering a full range of possible

:03:22. > :03:25.options. We are looking at existing arrangements for third country

:03:26. > :03:28.cooperation with the EU, which can inform discussions. But it is

:03:29. > :03:32.important to be very clear as I said a few moments ago that we are not

:03:33. > :03:36.looking to replicate any other nation's model. We are at a unique

:03:37. > :03:40.starting point with a strong history of working closely with the member

:03:41. > :03:44.states as partners and as allies. As mentioned, we will make a key

:03:45. > :03:48.contribution to security and justice, both in Europe and

:03:49. > :03:53.globally. We will seek an agreement with the EU that recognises that

:03:54. > :04:02.unique position that we hold. I thank the Minister for giving way.

:04:03. > :04:05.Further to an earlier question, further to the Prime Minister's

:04:06. > :04:14.speech yesterday. She said we will not be hanging on to fits of the EU.

:04:15. > :04:25.Europol is an EU agency -- on two bits. The European arrest warrant is

:04:26. > :04:29.in EU crime and safety measure. Isn't the only interpretational of

:04:30. > :04:34.the Prime Minister's speech about not hanging onto certain bits of the

:04:35. > :04:39.EU that are no longer participate in either of these? As an example, I

:04:40. > :04:43.will say that it is worth having a look at the website that his

:04:44. > :04:47.colleague is looking at. There are members and associate members of

:04:48. > :04:52.your poll that are not members of European Union -- of Europol.

:04:53. > :04:55.Europol existed as a non-EU institution before the EU as an

:04:56. > :05:00.institution was involved. These things are why important. We'll be

:05:01. > :05:04.looking to develop a unique and bespoke position for this country.

:05:05. > :05:08.In just a moment I will give way. I just want to make this point. I do

:05:09. > :05:16.appreciate from comments already made today, it's clear there will be

:05:17. > :05:20.members pen question -- who will question the benefit. I've had the

:05:21. > :05:24.chance to see regular, real-life example of what they do and how they

:05:25. > :05:28.matter -- why they matter, which I'll outline as soon as I have given

:05:29. > :05:33.way. Although there are several countries that have operational and

:05:34. > :05:38.strategic partnerships with the Europol, they don't have a say in

:05:39. > :05:42.the overall direction of Europol and also in many cases don't have access

:05:43. > :05:46.to all the databases, and it is access to the databases that is

:05:47. > :05:56.critical. Can he tell us, it hearing out trying to remain a member of

:05:57. > :06:02.Europol? -- is he ruling out. And will have access to all of

:06:03. > :06:07.pottable's databases. Are not ruling anything out. We would bespoke deal

:06:08. > :06:09.right of this country, no not prejudge the outcome of negotiations

:06:10. > :06:15.over the next couple of years. Europol is a European Union agency

:06:16. > :06:19.that is based in The Hague, the one that we are a huge contributor to.

:06:20. > :06:24.The chief executive at the moment, an excellent leader for that

:06:25. > :06:31.organisation is a British national. Whilst the honourable member doesn't

:06:32. > :06:37.want to prejudge negotiations, the decision to opt in, in which he laid

:06:38. > :06:44.out his case are doing so, show the UK is willing to be an active

:06:45. > :06:50.participant in Europol for many years to come. Has outlined at the

:06:51. > :06:55.time, he makes a good point in one sense but I want to be very clear.

:06:56. > :07:00.The opt in was in the context of us being a member of the European

:07:01. > :07:03.Union. The next couple of years, we are still a full member of the

:07:04. > :07:06.European Union. It's important that we make sure we take the opportunity

:07:07. > :07:11.to play a full and strong part here. And we do want to continue to play a

:07:12. > :07:15.very, very strong part as a partner for our colleagues across Europe and

:07:16. > :07:22.globally, particularly for law enforcement. The prime objective of

:07:23. > :07:26.treble is to facilitate information to prevent serious crime and

:07:27. > :07:31.terrorism -- of Europol. I have yet to meet a senior police officer

:07:32. > :07:35.across our country who does not value our permission of Europol. By

:07:36. > :07:37.providing a platform for members to share intelligence and information

:07:38. > :07:43.and for a strong analysis function, it offers an parallel opportunities

:07:44. > :07:52.to prevent serious crime and protect EU citizens, including those in the

:07:53. > :07:56.UK. This means that some 86,629, for example, suspected criminals were

:07:57. > :08:02.identified on Europol information system in 2015 alone, at 40% even on

:08:03. > :08:06.the year before. 1500 plus decisions for referrals of terrorist and

:08:07. > :08:14.extremist online content between July and December of 2016, with 1600

:08:15. > :08:19.plus removals. Large-scale organised crime and traffic cases, the UK

:08:20. > :08:22.starts one of the largest national desks in the organisation, where one

:08:23. > :08:34.of the biggest contributors of information to Europol's systems.

:08:35. > :08:43.Another mechanism we have at the moment is to Kante. It works troppo

:08:44. > :08:49.located network -- is Eurojus. Later this year, we will start operating

:08:50. > :08:52.the EU's system for exchange of DNA, fingerprints and vehicle

:08:53. > :09:00.registration data. Following this has's overwhelming vote in December

:09:01. > :09:03.2015 you join it. In 2015, we did conduct a pilot. Exchanging DNA

:09:04. > :09:07.profiles with other member states, which gave us an impressive number

:09:08. > :09:11.of hits. Many again suspect or lot of unidentified otherwise, and allow

:09:12. > :09:16.the police, who are then able to arrest people for a number of

:09:17. > :09:20.serious offences including burglary and attempted rape. Since a thousand

:09:21. > :09:25.15, we have taken part in a second generation Schengen information

:09:26. > :09:31.system, a system for circulating law-enforcement alerts around the EU

:09:32. > :09:32.at the same time. This ensures that intelligence is shared

:09:33. > :09:39.internationally to help prevent threats from across the world. We

:09:40. > :09:42.have arrested and extradited wanted criminals, who we have would not

:09:43. > :09:53.have otherwise even known about. I have the give way. The National

:09:54. > :09:59.crime agency has said the team is vitally important to UK, where he

:10:00. > :10:01.also join the Met police in that Eurojust is usually fallible and

:10:02. > :10:07.cooperation agreements must be guaranteed as soon as we leave the

:10:08. > :10:14.EU -- is hugely valuable. Unaware when I talked about the Association

:10:15. > :10:18.of curb lease -- of police, wear uniform in desire to keep all the

:10:19. > :10:22.talk is we can actively working. The work we have to do in the years

:10:23. > :10:27.ahead must reflect the fact we have made very clear that when people

:10:28. > :10:38.took forward their boat on the 23rd of June last year, they didn't wait

:10:39. > :10:43.to be any less safe -- their vote. The serving of prison sentences of

:10:44. > :10:47.existing convictions, we have managed to extradite some 7000

:10:48. > :10:51.people for the benefit of that. The European information system provides

:10:52. > :10:54.a secure electronic system, the exchange of information on criminal

:10:55. > :10:57.record and convictions between authorities are participating

:10:58. > :11:00.countries. Ensures that UK authorities are made aware when our

:11:01. > :11:08.own nationals convicted in any EU country. Means we can secure Camilla

:11:09. > :11:12.information on EU nationals, so when the UK courts -- criminal

:11:13. > :11:22.information, they can take into account previous cruel behaviour.

:11:23. > :11:26.Comicstrip -- previous criminal behaviour, I am grateful. The

:11:27. > :11:30.government's intention is to effectively negotiate a bespoke

:11:31. > :11:36.deal, to secure all of this into the future and to achieve that within

:11:37. > :11:42.two years. What happens if we don't get that spoke deal within the next

:11:43. > :11:48.two years? I say to my right honourable friend but obviously have

:11:49. > :11:52.been very clear about this, that the country has voted to leave the EU,

:11:53. > :11:55.and we are leaving the EU. This is in the context of working to get

:11:56. > :11:59.that spoke deal that she referred to. I have every confidence not just

:12:00. > :12:02.in the Home Secretary and the team at the Home Office, but also the

:12:03. > :12:05.Prime Minister and the team across the backs of department as well to

:12:06. > :12:12.negotiate to get that deal that is right for our country in the years

:12:13. > :12:16.ahead. I want to touch briefly on the fight against terrorism. We are

:12:17. > :12:20.and always have been clear in the national security remains the sole

:12:21. > :12:25.responsibility of EU member states. That was set out in EU law. Would my

:12:26. > :12:28.honourable friend agree that of course matters relating to the

:12:29. > :12:35.important questions Hughes raised regarding crime, terrorism, security

:12:36. > :12:38.-- he has raised, questions of fingerprinting, not by any means

:12:39. > :12:42.confined to that region called the European Union. Actually apply

:12:43. > :12:45.internationally, and therefore just as other countries such as the

:12:46. > :12:52.United States have their arrangements, so we have hours. He

:12:53. > :12:55.makes an important point in that the work we have done across Europe, we

:12:56. > :13:00.have been a leading country in getting this work, it is work we are

:13:01. > :13:04.continuing to do with countries around the world. To make sure able

:13:05. > :13:07.to do everything we can in every context to keep our country and

:13:08. > :13:12.citizens say. We do work bilaterally and through the counterterrorism

:13:13. > :13:19.group for example to combat terrorism in Europe. That includes

:13:20. > :13:24.working with European partners on information sharing, tackling

:13:25. > :13:30.foreign fighters, law-enforcement cooperation, tackling

:13:31. > :13:34.radicalisation. That sits outside the EU, and will continue to be a

:13:35. > :13:41.member of it. I EU cooperation is just part of a wider landscape.

:13:42. > :13:46.International counterterrorism work which includes cooperation through

:13:47. > :13:53.relationships such as Interpol, and bilateral work with individual

:13:54. > :13:57.countries and of course Nato. Might I just make one point in relation to

:13:58. > :14:05.the integration by my honourable friend the member. It was very clear

:14:06. > :14:10.that though there are other means of international cooperation and with

:14:11. > :14:13.other countries outside the EU, the current mechanisms are much more

:14:14. > :14:17.efficient than those, which very often have to be conducted on a

:14:18. > :14:22.bilateral basis, rather than as part of a joined up system. Beverages

:14:23. > :14:27.desirable -- therefore it is desirable that we do all it can to

:14:28. > :14:30.stay in them. That is a good point, and there are different agreements

:14:31. > :14:33.in different parts of the world with different partners. In important

:14:34. > :14:35.that we work to get the benefits we have seen from some of the work we

:14:36. > :14:41.have got in agreements across Europe. Actually more widely. There

:14:42. > :14:44.are key partners in Europe, and they assure us they very are close

:14:45. > :14:49.corporation in counterterrorism matters as well. We are clear and

:14:50. > :14:56.effective cooperation with EU member states in order to combat terrorism

:14:57. > :15:01.will continue to be a top UK priority. EU relationships will have

:15:02. > :15:03.to change, but our shared goal in ensuring the security of our

:15:04. > :15:08.citizens will not. It is important we can find a way forward that works

:15:09. > :15:12.for the UK and the EU jointly, for mutual benefit. We report on

:15:13. > :15:16.negotiations from the perspective of what's best for the safety of all

:15:17. > :15:20.our citizens. What is worse for those who seek to cause serious harm

:15:21. > :15:24.to all innocent people and democratic values. During

:15:25. > :15:28.negotiations, we will look to continue the excellent levels of

:15:29. > :15:31.cooperation that currently exist with our European partners. We are

:15:32. > :15:35.recognising that the nature of the future relationship can only be

:15:36. > :15:47.decided in negotiations with member states and EU institutions.

:15:48. > :15:53.We recognise the challenges in negotiating a new relationship. We

:15:54. > :15:57.are committed to finding new situations to allow us to continue

:15:58. > :15:58.working together for the security of Europe and all the citizens of the

:15:59. > :16:11.United Kingdom. The question is, this house has

:16:12. > :16:15.considered exiting the EU and security, law enforcement and

:16:16. > :16:19.criminal justice. Lynne Brown. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We

:16:20. > :16:24.welcome this afternoon's debate. In the run-up to the referendum in June

:16:25. > :16:28.last year and the months since, we have heard much about how our

:16:29. > :16:35.decision to leave the European Union will affect Britain's economy. We've

:16:36. > :16:40.it means for our businesses, trading relationships, the nation's finances

:16:41. > :16:43.and most importantly the personal finances of individuals and

:16:44. > :16:48.households throughout our country. All of that is of very deep concern

:16:49. > :16:52.to me and, I know, to many others in the house. Potentially of even

:16:53. > :16:57.greater significance is the threats to our national security that could

:16:58. > :17:02.from leaving the European Union and, in particular, the effect it will

:17:03. > :17:08.have on the ability of our police to protect our citizens. Today, as we

:17:09. > :17:12.turn our focus to these issues, the government needs to provide stronger

:17:13. > :17:18.assurances that our nation's security will not be compromised by

:17:19. > :17:24.our decision to leave the EU. Madam Deputy Speaker if I say gently to

:17:25. > :17:29.the honourable gentleman that his speech was strong in analysis, long,

:17:30. > :17:34.and strong on detail on what these institutions are... But we didn't

:17:35. > :17:40.really hear anything about how we were going to do the things he wants

:17:41. > :17:45.us to affect. I know some honourable members in this house lament the

:17:46. > :17:52.fact that in the 40 years plus since we decided to join the common market

:17:53. > :17:56.it became far more than simply a trading arrangement. Given the

:17:57. > :18:00.nature of the threat we face, it's unsurprising that European countries

:18:01. > :18:05.found it convenient to cooperate in other areas, including the field of

:18:06. > :18:09.justice and home affairs. Quite simply, it was in our national

:18:10. > :18:14.interest to do so. Because the security threat we face are not

:18:15. > :18:19.confined to our national borders, whether it is to fight international

:18:20. > :18:23.terrorist networks or track down fugitives from justice. Or obtain

:18:24. > :18:28.crucial information on the activities of suspects abroad or

:18:29. > :18:33.maintain border controls. It certainly makes more sense to act

:18:34. > :18:39.together. Madam Deputy Speaker, these issues are of paramount

:18:40. > :18:44.importance to the security of our citizens. Whatever our personal view

:18:45. > :18:49.on the EU referendum, we urgently need reassurance from the Minister

:18:50. > :18:53.that our national security and ability to combat crime within our

:18:54. > :18:58.borders will not be compromised by the decision to leave. I know many

:18:59. > :19:06.honourable members will have issues they want to race this afternoon.

:19:07. > :19:11.Thank you very much for letting me in, would be honourable lady agree

:19:12. > :19:15.that for us in Northern Ireland it is especially Kiwi keep our

:19:16. > :19:19.relationships with Ireland and how we are working together there, and

:19:20. > :19:24.improve the counterterrorism world we've got. Eight out of 110

:19:25. > :19:29.extraditions allowed the still great work to be done. We've got to build

:19:30. > :19:33.on it. The honourable gentleman is absolutely right, there are three

:19:34. > :19:38.main issues that we would like to seek answers on this afternoon.

:19:39. > :19:43.These are our ability to participate in the common arrest warrant, our

:19:44. > :19:47.future relationship with Europe and access to a Europe-wide crime

:19:48. > :19:49.prevention databases including the Schengen information system. I'm

:19:50. > :19:56.going to come to each of those interned. A general point to be

:19:57. > :20:01.made, as many in this house will remember, our optimal relationship

:20:02. > :20:05.with the EU in the field of security and justice was comprehensively

:20:06. > :20:10.debated in the previous parliament. Indeed we opted out of all

:20:11. > :20:16.provisions relating to police and criminal justice in order to have a

:20:17. > :20:21.fresh debate about which foolish proofs we wanted to be part by

:20:22. > :20:25.opting them again. -- which initiatives. This was negotiated

:20:26. > :20:31.with other European member states by the previous Labour government and

:20:32. > :20:35.continued by the subsequent coalition. It consisted of two years

:20:36. > :20:41.of debate in government and Brussels and culminated in Britain deciding

:20:42. > :20:45.to opt back in to 35 specific measures that we considered to be in

:20:46. > :20:49.our national interest. These measures included amongst others the

:20:50. > :20:54.European arrest warrant, Europol, access to Schengen information

:20:55. > :20:57.system. Three things I'm concerned with today. I know our current Prime

:20:58. > :21:02.Minister is concerned about them, too, because it was she as Home

:21:03. > :21:10.Secretary who put the case to the house on the 7th of April 2014, that

:21:11. > :21:13.we should put back into them. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's so nice to have

:21:14. > :21:19.confidence that we will have unanimity in the chamber this

:21:20. > :21:26.afternoon on this often contentious subject. But I know the opted

:21:27. > :21:30.inhabitant before the referendum. -- the opt in happened. The government

:21:31. > :21:35.needs to tell us post-referendum how we ensure we still have access to

:21:36. > :21:39.these measures we so recently decided we needed to keep our

:21:40. > :21:44.citizens safe. We don't have time today to rehearse the two years of

:21:45. > :21:49.debate that led to a decision to cooperate in each of these 35 areas

:21:50. > :21:56.we decided to opt back into. I'm going to focus on our main concerns.

:21:57. > :22:02.There is no doubt this is a crucial tool in the fight against crime in

:22:03. > :22:07.the UK. Introduced 2004, it provides a mechanism for crime suspects who

:22:08. > :22:12.have left the country, fugitives, to be surrendered to the UK

:22:13. > :22:16.automatically buy in European member state, meaning suspects who have

:22:17. > :22:20.fled can be returned in a matter of weeks or days. Crucially it means

:22:21. > :22:23.suspects can be returned to the UK even if the crime they are suspected

:22:24. > :22:30.of committing has a different legal basis. To the law that applies in

:22:31. > :22:35.the country they have fled to. This is because, underpinning the

:22:36. > :22:38.European arrest warrant, is the principal each European Union

:22:39. > :22:39.country agreed to respect the decisions of each other's criminal

:22:40. > :22:52.justice system, even if they differ. I think she's just made the point I

:22:53. > :22:55.wanted to raise, which is that the principal means we have to accept

:22:56. > :23:00.that justice systems across the rest of the EU are as good as ours. Does

:23:01. > :23:09.she have confidence that is the case? I have confidence that the

:23:10. > :23:13.European arrest warrant is far more powerful than any other extradition

:23:14. > :23:22.process anywhere else in the world. And we would be so stupid if we let

:23:23. > :23:28.it go. Since it was introduced in 2004, the UK has used it to bring

:23:29. > :23:36.2500 individuals from outside the UK to face justice. 2500. Let's not

:23:37. > :23:40.forget it was the mechanism that enabled Hussain Osman to be brought

:23:41. > :23:47.to justice after he fled to Italy after a failed suicide bombing in

:23:48. > :23:53.London in 2005. The problem that we face is that the European arrest

:23:54. > :23:57.warrant is available exclusively to EU members. There are considerable

:23:58. > :24:00.hurdles to overcome, were we to attempt to maintain the current

:24:01. > :24:06.arrangements, if we're not in the European Union. As a recent briefing

:24:07. > :24:11.from the Centre for European reform think tank states, if, having left

:24:12. > :24:15.the EU, the UK wanted to get a similar deal, I quote, it would need

:24:16. > :24:21.to convince some of its partners to change their constitutions. In some

:24:22. > :24:25.cases this would trigger a referendum, do we really think they

:24:26. > :24:29.would hold such a referendum because we have decided to leave the EU?

:24:30. > :24:35.Some other countries from outside the European Union have attempted to

:24:36. > :24:39.negotiate access to the current arrest warrant system. Norway and

:24:40. > :24:44.Iceland for example have concluded a surrender agreement with the EU that

:24:45. > :24:49.attempts to get the same benefits, though it has not yet come into

:24:50. > :24:55.force. This agreement is weaker in two ways. First, it requires the

:24:56. > :24:59.alleged offences are the same in both countries, so losing the

:25:00. > :25:03.flexibility that comes from member states agreeing to respect the

:25:04. > :25:09.decisions of each other's criminal justice systems. Second, it allows

:25:10. > :25:14.countries to refuse to surrender their own nationals, making it

:25:15. > :25:20.tricky, for example, if a national of another EU country commits an

:25:21. > :25:27.offence on UK soil. On top of that, if that weren't bad enough, it took

:25:28. > :25:32.15 years to negotiate. That is countries in Schengen and the

:25:33. > :25:39.European economic area. Whereas, as the Prime Minister made clear

:25:40. > :25:44.yesterday, there are no plans for us to be members of either. The

:25:45. > :25:47.alternative is to fall back on previous extradition treaties which

:25:48. > :25:52.are far more cumbersome and in some cases will require EU countries to

:25:53. > :25:58.change their own laws in respect of the UK. Madam Deputy Speaker it is

:25:59. > :26:03.hard to see how any of these options are preferable to the current

:26:04. > :26:08.arrangement. In particular I'm finding it hard to understand how

:26:09. > :26:12.this fits with the Prime Minister's pledge yesterday to "Work together

:26:13. > :26:15.more" in response to threats to our common security. Because while it's

:26:16. > :26:19.not difficult for an individual who has broken the law in Britain to hop

:26:20. > :26:25.on a cheap flight to another European country, I fear it will be

:26:26. > :26:30.very hard indeed without the European arrest warrant for us to

:26:31. > :26:35.get them back again. For this reason, Labour today calls on the

:26:36. > :26:42.government to ensure the current arrangements are maintained. I now

:26:43. > :26:47.turn to Europol. It was only a few weeks ago that this house approved

:26:48. > :26:53.regulations that confirmed our opt in to Europol. The reason we did

:26:54. > :26:57.this is because it is vital to our national security. Europol, the

:26:58. > :27:02.European police office, to give it its proper title, exists to combat

:27:03. > :27:06.serious international organised crime by means of cooperation

:27:07. > :27:10.between relevant authorities, member states, including those tasked with

:27:11. > :27:18.customs, immigration services, borders and financial police. As we

:27:19. > :27:23.know, Europol is not able to mandate national forces to undertake

:27:24. > :27:25.investigations. But it provides information and resources that

:27:26. > :27:32.enables these national investigations to take place. In the

:27:33. > :27:38.words of the British director of Europe, Rob Wainwright, whose

:27:39. > :27:42.previous career was in UK security institutions, our decision to opt

:27:43. > :27:48.into your report is, and I quote, good for Britain's security, great

:27:49. > :27:51.for police operation in Europe. And indeed the Minister for policing

:27:52. > :27:55.confirmed on the 16th of December during the debate on the statutory

:27:56. > :28:02.instrument that you report provides, again I quote, a vital tool in

:28:03. > :28:05.helping UK law enforcement agencies to coordinate investigations

:28:06. > :28:11.involving cross-border serious and organised crime. A vital tool. He

:28:12. > :28:14.also said around 40% of everything Europol does is linked to work that

:28:15. > :28:19.is either provided or requested by the United Kingdom. But when he was

:28:20. > :28:23.pushed on whether we can maintain our membership of Europol, the

:28:24. > :28:28.Secretary of State for exiting the European Union speaking in this

:28:29. > :28:34.house last year was only able to say the government will seek to, and I

:28:35. > :28:42.quote "Preserve the relationship with the European Union security

:28:43. > :28:46.matters as best we can". When the honourable member for Holborn and St

:28:47. > :28:49.Pancras asked the same question about Europol yesterday we got no

:28:50. > :28:56.more information about how it could be done. I'm grateful to the

:28:57. > :29:00.honourable lady for giving way. Is she aware of what Wainwright said

:29:01. > :29:04.last year, that negotiating security pact from outside the block of your

:29:05. > :29:08.report in the event of Britain leaving the EU would be a damage

:29:09. > :29:11.limitation exercise. Does she agree with me that what we need to hear

:29:12. > :29:14.from the government today is not a eulogy to how great you report is

:29:15. > :29:17.because we know that already, but an indication of how they will limit

:29:18. > :29:22.the damage caused by leaving the European Union and agencies such as

:29:23. > :29:26.Europol. The honourable lady is absolutely right because Madam

:29:27. > :29:31.Deputy Speaker I agree with her, it simply isn't good enough. While the

:29:32. > :29:35.rubble has arrangements for third-party access, they raise

:29:36. > :29:39.serious questions. The government itself, in a policy paper published

:29:40. > :29:42.last year stated, again, I quote, there are a number of important

:29:43. > :29:49.differences between what Europol provides to third countries with

:29:50. > :29:53.which it has agreements. And EU members. They highlight, in

:29:54. > :29:57.particular, the inability to directly submit data and conduct

:29:58. > :30:02.searches within the Europol databases. The need to conclude a

:30:03. > :30:06.separate bilateral arrangement to connect to Europol secure

:30:07. > :30:13.information exchange network application. And the ability to sit

:30:14. > :30:19.on Europol's management board, which sets the organisational strategy. It

:30:20. > :30:25.tells us Mr Wainwright is highly unlikely to be staying in his post.

:30:26. > :30:30.In summary, to borrow from the words of David Armond, deputy director of

:30:31. > :30:36.the National crime agency, any alternative arrangement to full

:30:37. > :30:41.membership would be, and I quote, sub optimal. Not as good as what

:30:42. > :30:42.we've currently got. And that, frankly, doesn't feel comfortable to

:30:43. > :30:51.me. Our third concerned is around access

:30:52. > :30:57.to pan-European databases that are important for the routine work of

:30:58. > :31:02.our police forces. Access to the European criminal records data is

:31:03. > :31:08.limited, exclusively to EU member states. The common European asylum

:31:09. > :31:12.system includes fingerprint database known as Euro duck, that prevents

:31:13. > :31:18.individuals reapplying for a silent once they have been rejected. We

:31:19. > :31:22.have -- for asylum. To the Schengen information system, despite not

:31:23. > :31:26.being a member of Schengen, which contains information on lost

:31:27. > :31:32.identity documents and importantly, wanted persons. And the Minister's

:31:33. > :31:38.own permanent secretary in his four to the most recent annual report to

:31:39. > :31:43.the Home Office has stated that strengthening data ties with our

:31:44. > :31:49.European allies was central to combating terrorism. I would be

:31:50. > :31:52.grateful if the minister when he sums up confirms whether we also

:31:53. > :31:56.have access to these databases outside the European Union. And if

:31:57. > :32:01.so, will they come at a financial cost? I am most grateful to my

:32:02. > :32:04.honourable friend, she is making an impressive and powerful speech on

:32:05. > :32:11.this issue. Some of us may just not need to speak, but I'm sure that

:32:12. > :32:16.will not stop her speaking! Can I just say to her on the issue, at the

:32:17. > :32:25.moment someone arrested in London within three minutes, if a German

:32:26. > :32:28.citizen, we'll be to know exactly what their previous convictions are.

:32:29. > :32:33.We will want an arrangement that is just as good if we are no longer to

:32:34. > :32:38.have the access that we have at the moment. The honourable gentleman, my

:32:39. > :32:41.honourable friend, is absolutely right. But we're not getting any

:32:42. > :32:44.guarantees from our government that this is what they're going to be

:32:45. > :32:51.able to provide. There is still a more general problem, or that there

:32:52. > :32:55.are even negotiating for it. There is even more general problem about

:32:56. > :32:59.access to the data we need to combat crime and keep us safe. Even if we

:33:00. > :33:05.have access to European databases outside the EU, we may not have too

:33:06. > :33:09.-- be able to use them. That is because the European data protection

:33:10. > :33:16.law is clear that no information can be handed to a third country, which

:33:17. > :33:21.we will be, that does not Hetty evils of privacy. And while our

:33:22. > :33:27.government has said -- adhered to EU laws of privacy. By the government

:33:28. > :33:29.said will adhere at least until the point of Brexit, we did not know

:33:30. > :33:34.that they intend to do so afterwards. We certainly knows what

:33:35. > :33:38.happens if our data laws do not adhere to European privacy laws. The

:33:39. > :33:45.European Court of Justice will simply invalidate any data sharing

:33:46. > :33:51.agreement, as it has done for the so-called agreement between the EU

:33:52. > :33:56.and the US. What guarantees will the government put in place to ensure

:33:57. > :33:58.that information our police and security agencies need from the

:33:59. > :34:06.European Union databases will not also be turned off when they leave?

:34:07. > :34:11.In conclusion, we have some very deep concerns that our ability to

:34:12. > :34:15.protect our citizens will be made harder when they leave the European

:34:16. > :34:19.Union. And we need reassurance from the government that it intends to

:34:20. > :34:24.reduce or eliminate this risk through its negotiations on Brexit.

:34:25. > :34:28.It's one thing to have our prosperity under threat from the

:34:29. > :34:33.complexities of maintaining access to the single market. And frankly,

:34:34. > :34:38.that's bad enough. But it's quite another to have our security and

:34:39. > :34:41.their very lives of our citizens under threat due to the complexities

:34:42. > :34:47.of maintaining cross-border cooperation between our police and

:34:48. > :34:53.security forces not been properly considered and worked out before

:34:54. > :34:57.leaving. I quote again from the Centre for European reform. "Justice

:34:58. > :35:03.And home affairs is not like trade, which creates winners and losers.

:35:04. > :35:06.The only losers from increased cooperation in law enforcement are

:35:07. > :35:12.criminals themselves". So my question to the Minister is simple:

:35:13. > :35:15.what guarantees will he give that Britain's security will not be

:35:16. > :35:25.compromised by us leaving the European Union? Order. I have now to

:35:26. > :35:32.announce the result on the deferred decision, the ayes were 299, the

:35:33. > :35:42.noes Wessex. In England, the ayes were 280, and of the noes were six

:35:43. > :35:48.-- the noes 's work six. If I may say so to the honourable lady, whose

:35:49. > :35:52.speech I listen to, I am for my own part completely content of these

:35:53. > :35:55.matters should be left should be left in the safe hands of the

:35:56. > :36:02.Minister of State, who knows exactly what needs to be done. I am most

:36:03. > :36:06.grateful for this opportunity to say a few brief words following my right

:36:07. > :36:10.honourable friend the Prime Minister's excellent, bold and

:36:11. > :36:13.comprehensive speech yesterday. And to set out a few thoughts on wider

:36:14. > :36:21.security and co-operation after Brexit. In the Brexit negotiations,

:36:22. > :36:25.it will be necessary for us to set up the basis of our future

:36:26. > :36:28.relationship as is described in Article 50. I believe that our

:36:29. > :36:33.national interests in sustaining to the very highest degree and indeed

:36:34. > :36:39.to carrying forward into the future, the highest possible degree of joint

:36:40. > :36:42.action on Justice, home affairs, security cooperation and of

:36:43. > :36:47.scientific research and innovation, and indeed on many other areas of

:36:48. > :36:49.common and important interest. I congratulate my right honourable

:36:50. > :36:54.friend the Prime Minister on the clear and concise way in which she

:36:55. > :37:00.set up the government's position. And whilst I was a staunch Remainer,

:37:01. > :37:04.I absolutely accept the vote of the referendum, and the need now for the

:37:05. > :37:10.government to get on with it. As Churchill once said, if there is a

:37:11. > :37:16.there in your bedroom, it is not a matter for speculation. At the same

:37:17. > :37:19.time as these are difficult and conduct negotiations on trade and

:37:20. > :37:25.all the myriad other issues take place, this is an important time for

:37:26. > :37:32.us to set out, as the Prime Minister did in her speech, a clear case for

:37:33. > :37:35.a very close partnership and a new relationship of cooperation between

:37:36. > :37:40.members of the European Union and the UK. Indeed, in my view, it

:37:41. > :37:45.should be as close as any sovereign country can be. In terms of military

:37:46. > :37:51.affairs, free trade and security cooperation. In my view, this type

:37:52. > :37:55.of work with our friends Germany and France and others, and in other

:37:56. > :37:58.countries, is of the first importance. And our initiatives

:37:59. > :38:03.which in my view would be widely welcomed in Europe, what running in

:38:04. > :38:07.parallel with the rather more complex and tricky negotiations of

:38:08. > :38:11.the Article 50 transaction. Here is something about which Britain can

:38:12. > :38:18.bring something very positive and very useful and of proved worth to

:38:19. > :38:22.the table. Thus in my judgment, we should aim to maintain our excellent

:38:23. > :38:30.cooperation on security as it is now, and indeed to enhance it

:38:31. > :38:34.further, including during the discussion of the new settlement. On

:38:35. > :38:40.many of the issues, we will continue to have an important interest in

:38:41. > :38:43.shaping EU policies after we leave. But clearly, the United Kingdom is

:38:44. > :38:48.an important influence on European security agenda, and it will remain

:38:49. > :38:54.considerable given our position as Nato's most capable and willing

:38:55. > :38:58.European power. The recent deployments of Typhoon aircraft to

:38:59. > :39:07.Remainiac Army personnel to eastern Poland, -- to Romania. And soon the

:39:08. > :39:11.deployment of a full battalion of 800 men to Estonia. All served to

:39:12. > :39:19.underline our profound commitment to the effort. Inevitably once the UK

:39:20. > :39:26.exits the EU, it will become harder for us to translate this into an

:39:27. > :39:30.important commitment into political influence. It is thus even more

:39:31. > :39:34.imperative that our partners and friends understand that it is our

:39:35. > :39:39.intention to continue the closest possible relationship in these areas

:39:40. > :39:41.to our mutual interest. As the Prime Minister rightly said yesterday in

:39:42. > :39:47.her speech, she wants Britain to be the best friend and neighbour of our

:39:48. > :39:52.European partners. And a country that reaches out beyond the borders

:39:53. > :39:55.of Europe, too. And my fervent hope that our European friends will

:39:56. > :40:01.understand that it is our strongest wish that we play from the outside

:40:02. > :40:08.what role we can in making sure that the UPN union succeeds. Yes, of

:40:09. > :40:12.course. -- the European Union. Would he agrees me that we need to put all

:40:13. > :40:16.the pressure we can on President come to make sure that Nato stays in

:40:17. > :40:20.place and we build on our security -- president Trump. There is a fear

:40:21. > :40:23.that he may not, in which case the pressures change. I very strongly

:40:24. > :40:28.agree with the honourable gentleman, and I think it is very important. I

:40:29. > :40:31.have high hopes that the Prime Minister when she goes to visit

:40:32. > :40:38.President Trump will of course be making this point very clearly I

:40:39. > :40:42.hope that he will say something in his inauguration speech which will

:40:43. > :40:47.clarify what he meant. I'm not offended by that. Discussing with my

:40:48. > :40:49.honourable friend the chairman of the Defence Select Committee. I

:40:50. > :40:53.don't think he meant it as an insult. It is true there is much

:40:54. > :40:59.about nature that is highly unsatisfactory. Not the least that

:41:00. > :41:04.many of them don't pay their fair whack -- about Nato. Nato is not

:41:05. > :41:07.equipped or is far advanced as Russia, for example, in the new

:41:08. > :41:12.asymmetric hybrid versions of warfare that we are going to have to

:41:13. > :41:18.contend with as is seen in the unbelievably bad behaviour in the

:41:19. > :41:24.Crimea. Before he gets back to his main oration, I would like to draw

:41:25. > :41:31.attention to the context in which President Trump was reported, where

:41:32. > :41:36.he says that Nato, he says, is extremely important to him. When

:41:37. > :41:39.he's talking about the word obsolete, he seems to be using it in

:41:40. > :41:44.a sense that he's saying that Nato needs not to be abolished, but to

:41:45. > :41:49.modernise to face new threats. I think actually, we shouldn't read

:41:50. > :41:53.too much into the individual nuances of particular words that he speaks,

:41:54. > :42:01.because nuance does not seem to his style. I think my right honourable

:42:02. > :42:06.friend is spot on with that, anyway I'm sure that these matters will

:42:07. > :42:11.play out. I look at the wonderful success of the security architecture

:42:12. > :42:15.designed by those wise men and women after the last war, the last Great

:42:16. > :42:20.War, one looks at how well it has served the world in peace, in good

:42:21. > :42:23.times and bad times. It would seem to me not to be a sensible time to

:42:24. > :42:29.do anything other than support. Therefore, with the threats to our

:42:30. > :42:33.common security becoming even more serious, and in many ways in my view

:42:34. > :42:38.more insidious, our response cannot surely be to cooperate with one

:42:39. > :42:43.another less, but to work together more. As the Prime Minister said in

:42:44. > :42:46.her speech yesterday, we are proud of the Royal Britain has prayed, and

:42:47. > :42:53.we will continue to play in promoting Europe's security -- the

:42:54. > :42:57.role Britain has played. Whether it is implement in sanctions against

:42:58. > :43:00.Russia following its action in the Crimea, working for peace and

:43:01. > :43:06.stability in the Balkans, extraordinary important piece of

:43:07. > :43:10.work right now, or securing Europe's external borders. We will continue

:43:11. > :43:14.to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence

:43:15. > :43:21.policy, even as the leave the EU itself. To conclude, I hope that the

:43:22. > :43:25.Minister will agree with me that it is very important that we

:43:26. > :43:30.demonstrate even during the heat of the negotiations the inevitable heat

:43:31. > :43:35.of the negotiations, are absolute determination to be good partners

:43:36. > :43:38.and good friends, allies and friends to Europe, and that we are as my

:43:39. > :43:43.right honourable friend so rightly said, leaving the European Union but

:43:44. > :43:49.most emphatically not leaving Europe. It's a pleasure and an

:43:50. > :43:54.honour to follow the right honourable member for Mid Sussex,

:43:55. > :43:57.I'm sure we find much about which we disagree, but his experience in

:43:58. > :44:01.these matters shines through. I would also like to compliment the

:44:02. > :44:06.honourable member for West Ham on her speech. I think it was a fine

:44:07. > :44:10.speech and there was much to agree about in it. This debate takes place

:44:11. > :44:15.against the background of the Prime Minister's speech yesterday, which

:44:16. > :44:19.was made not to this house but to an invited audience. Although we had an

:44:20. > :44:23.opportunity to question the minister, the Secretary of State for

:44:24. > :44:28.exiting the European Union yesterday, this House has yet to

:44:29. > :44:36.debate the plan for year event Defra for leaving European Union. While it

:44:37. > :44:39.is of utmost importance we debate the implications on justice, it is

:44:40. > :44:43.more important that we should soon be involved to debate the overall

:44:44. > :44:47.plan for Brexit that was finally laid before us yesterday. Scotland

:44:48. > :44:50.didn't vote for the direction of travel set out in the Prime

:44:51. > :44:54.Minister's speech yesterday. We don't believe it's in our national

:44:55. > :44:59.interest, but we also believe that decisions on this topic in relation

:45:00. > :45:04.to Europe, the European Union, are not being driven by the National --

:45:05. > :45:09.rational best interests of the whole UK, but rather by the obsessions of

:45:10. > :45:14.the hard right of the Tory party. We strongly believe that the best way

:45:15. > :45:19.to build a prosperous and equal, a safe and secure United Kingdom is to

:45:20. > :45:24.be a full member of the European Union. Which failing, to be a member

:45:25. > :45:27.of the single market and to cooperate widely on matters such as

:45:28. > :45:31.security, law enforcement and criminal justice. That's why the

:45:32. > :45:37.Scottish Government put a plan to the whole of the UK before

:45:38. > :45:41.Christmas, suggesting a compromise whereby we might the whole of UK

:45:42. > :45:45.stay in the single market and continue to cooperate on matters

:45:46. > :45:48.such as under discussion today. It seems clear from the Prime Minister

:45:49. > :45:51.said yesterday that she's not interested in that as an option, so

:45:52. > :45:55.we fall back on our fallback position, whereby we ask the British

:45:56. > :45:59.government to consider allowing Scotland to stay in the single

:46:00. > :46:03.market allowing Scotland to continue co-operation on these matters.

:46:04. > :46:10.But, Madam Deputy Speaker, to turn to the subject in hand, the UK

:46:11. > :46:15.Government should not try to lull people into a false sense of

:46:16. > :46:19.security in thinking that continued cooperation on the matter is we are

:46:20. > :46:25.debating today will be easy in the event of a hard Brexit. It's not

:46:26. > :46:27.just my opinion, it was the opinion of the House of Lords European Union

:46:28. > :46:33.committee which published a report on Brexit and future EU UK security

:46:34. > :46:41.and police co-operation. They noted the United Kingdom shares a mutual

:46:42. > :46:47.interest in maintaining police and security cooperation after Brexit.

:46:48. > :46:52.They warned against any suggestion that this understanding of mutual

:46:53. > :46:55.self interest might lead to a false sense of optimism as to how

:46:56. > :47:01.negotiations in this area might proceed. This raises questions

:47:02. > :47:05.already alluded to about the extent to which the United Kingdom could

:47:06. > :47:10.continue to benefit from the same level of cooperation outside the EU.

:47:11. > :47:13.It's already been pointed out in relation to you report that

:47:14. > :47:18.associate members do not have access to the same data sharing

:47:19. > :47:25.information. Data sharing is very central to this debate, Madam Deputy

:47:26. > :47:30.Speaker. There will be limits to how closely the United Kingdom and EU 27

:47:31. > :47:33.can work together. If we in the UK are no longer accountable to an

:47:34. > :47:38.subject to the oversight and adjudication of the same

:47:39. > :47:42.supranational institutions, including, perhaps most importantly,

:47:43. > :47:49.the Court of Justice of the European Union. We saw just before Christmas

:47:50. > :47:51.that the Court of Justice of the European Union took rather dim view

:47:52. > :47:57.of the provisions for data collection and retention in the

:47:58. > :48:00.investigatory Powers act. Many of us had warned that would occur at the

:48:01. > :48:04.time the bill was going through the house. If the United Kingdom does

:48:05. > :48:09.not comply with EU law on data sharing and privacy protection then

:48:10. > :48:13.our partners will not be able in terms of the laws by which they are

:48:14. > :48:20.bound to share information with us. This is not about protection of

:48:21. > :48:25.civil liberties, it's crucial to security and issues of law

:48:26. > :48:28.enforcement. Much is often made in this general debate about the

:48:29. > :48:37.European Union of the opportunities that lie for the United Kingdom

:48:38. > :48:40.beyond Europe. It is sometimes suggested we should focus more on

:48:41. > :48:45.our security arrangements with the five eyes countries, the United

:48:46. > :48:50.States of America. It is true some countries such as the USA have shown

:48:51. > :48:56.there is a precedent for bilateral agreements on the transfer of data.

:48:57. > :49:00.But these presidents don't offer the quick fix some suggest. These

:49:01. > :49:06.agreements have taken many years to negotiate and in some cases are not

:49:07. > :49:12.enforced. Why withdraw from the system we have so painstakingly

:49:13. > :49:16.contributed to four years to seek something else which is far from

:49:17. > :49:21.guaranteed? As a matter of security we can't afford to have an

:49:22. > :49:24.operational break in the access we currently have two these EU

:49:25. > :49:29.cross-border tools, because the part of the day-to-day work of the police

:49:30. > :49:33.force at present. We have to look at the figures on stats produced by the

:49:34. > :49:38.Home Office and Scottish Government to see how important Europol and the

:49:39. > :49:42.European West warrant are. It is sometimes also suggested our

:49:43. > :49:46.partnerships with other countries such as the five eyes partnership

:49:47. > :49:51.will somehow replace or supersede what we have in place with the

:49:52. > :49:56.European Union. It won't work either because the five eyes partnership,

:49:57. > :50:01.important as it is, doesn't cover all aspects of our security. For

:50:02. > :50:06.example it doesn't cover day-to-day policing, or all aspects of it. The

:50:07. > :50:12.National crime agency has said one of their issues of concern, an issue

:50:13. > :50:15.of concern for their five eyes partners, is that the lack of the

:50:16. > :50:21.United Kingdom at Europol will impact on the other five eyes

:50:22. > :50:26.countries' relationships because often they use the United Kingdom as

:50:27. > :50:29.a proxy for getting work done at Europol when the United Kingdom is

:50:30. > :50:33.working with the other five eyes countries. These are the realities

:50:34. > :50:39.of the situation and they are not just difficulties that we in the

:50:40. > :50:42.Scottish National party are highlighting, and the Labour Party,

:50:43. > :50:47.they are difficulties which have been highlighted by the National

:50:48. > :50:53.crime agency, by Rob Wainwright, and by a House of Lords committee that

:50:54. > :51:02.has looked into these matters in some detail. The need to meet EU

:51:03. > :51:08.data protection standards in order to exchange data for law enforcement

:51:09. > :51:13.purposes means that if we leave the UK, if the UK leaves the EU, the UK

:51:14. > :51:20.will still need to subject itself to data protection law, which it will

:51:21. > :51:25.have no role in shaping. I asked the people on the benches opposite, is

:51:26. > :51:28.that what they really want? I realise they have concerns about the

:51:29. > :51:32.way laws are made in the European Union and I realise it's pretty

:51:33. > :51:36.obvious they don't like the Court of Justice in the European Union very

:51:37. > :51:39.much. If we as a union of nations want to continue to operate security

:51:40. > :51:44.and law enforcement with our European Union partners, as I said

:51:45. > :51:48.earlier, data sharing is key. We'll have to subject ourselves to the

:51:49. > :51:54.data sharing rules made by the other 27 member states into which we are

:51:55. > :51:58.going to have no input. If we insist on going our separate way, as we've

:51:59. > :52:03.done with the IP act, going beyond what European law sanctions, the

:52:04. > :52:07.other 27 member states won't want to share information with us because,

:52:08. > :52:14.as I said earlier, it'll be in breach of their own laws on data

:52:15. > :52:20.sharing and data protection. Madam Deputy Speaker, these are very, very

:52:21. > :52:24.real concerns. As I said earlier, my intervention on the honourable lady

:52:25. > :52:27.who speaks for the Labour front bench, what we heard from the

:52:28. > :52:31.minister earlier was a very good speech about the advantages of

:52:32. > :52:38.Europol and other European Union institutions to the lighted kingdom.

:52:39. > :52:45.-- United Kingdom. What we didn't hear was how he proposes to preserve

:52:46. > :52:48.those advantages in the event of the hard Brexit which we heard about for

:52:49. > :52:55.the first time in some detail yesterday. What we need to hear

:52:56. > :53:01.before this afternoon is not United Kingdom government's wish list, but

:53:02. > :53:05.the mechanics of how the United Kingdom government intends to

:53:06. > :53:11.achieve a continuation of the level of security, protection and law

:53:12. > :53:17.enforcement information sharing we currently enjoy with the other 27 EU

:53:18. > :53:22.member states, if they are intent on the task which the Prime Minister

:53:23. > :53:26.set out yesterday. We've heard nothing so far except that they want

:53:27. > :53:29.a bespoke deal. We'll wait with bated breath to hear about more than

:53:30. > :53:35.that when the Minister sums up. Robert Weale. Always a pleasure to

:53:36. > :53:40.follow the honourable lady member for Edinburgh South West. She's a

:53:41. > :53:43.distinguished practical lawyer and I agree with her on some of the

:53:44. > :53:47.practical issues which arise and I'll come back to some of those in a

:53:48. > :53:50.moment. Can I first of all say how much I endorse the views of my right

:53:51. > :53:57.honourable friend the member for Mid Sussex in relation both to our

:53:58. > :54:00.mutual situation, having forced to remain in the European Union but

:54:01. > :54:05.lost, accepting the verdict of the people, commending the Prime

:54:06. > :54:08.Minister upon what I think is a realistic, practical and determined

:54:09. > :54:12.approach to taking that issue forward. And upon the importance of

:54:13. > :54:16.our Nato relationships. He's much more of an expert on those matters

:54:17. > :54:21.Bandai but I endorse what he says and perhaps I add this one word. Not

:54:22. > :54:24.only must we endorse and strengthen our Nato relationships, we must

:54:25. > :54:28.maintain the best possible relationships with our colleagues

:54:29. > :54:33.who happen to be both members of the European Union and Nato. Not least

:54:34. > :54:38.our nearest neighbour, France, which is the other great military power of

:54:39. > :54:42.Europe. Nicola Power, significant military power, member of the United

:54:43. > :54:51.Nations security council. -- nuclear power. He will gently remind other

:54:52. > :54:57.material colleagues we have a long history with France and are on the

:54:58. > :55:01.same side in the Second World War. -- ministerial colleagues. That

:55:02. > :55:06.said, I'll pass to the specific issue I'd like to return to, which

:55:07. > :55:10.is the question of law enforcement and criminal justice cooperation.

:55:11. > :55:15.That has concerned me not only through my years at the criminal

:55:16. > :55:18.bar, but the Justice select committee took evidence in the last

:55:19. > :55:24.week or so, we'll be publishing our report soon. I don't expect the

:55:25. > :55:29.Minister to reveal the mechanism by which we achieve our objectives,

:55:30. > :55:33.because we're at the beginning of a process and the Prime Minister was

:55:34. > :55:36.right to set out if you like, the plan, and I expect there will be a

:55:37. > :55:39.lot more detail we have to think about. What I want to do in this

:55:40. > :55:42.short contribution is to flag up some of the issues I hope the

:55:43. > :55:46.Minister and his colleagues will bear in mind when we look at the

:55:47. > :55:52.negotiations, and how we put that plan into reality. The Minister of

:55:53. > :55:55.State for the Home Office started by talking about the importance of the

:55:56. > :56:01.European arrest warrant. It is recognised by the Prime Minister.

:56:02. > :56:05.She is right. We must do all that is necessary to remain within the

:56:06. > :56:10.European arrest warrant. It involves some compromises with purity of any

:56:11. > :56:14.break. I will be prepared to make that, as I would in relation to

:56:15. > :56:17.other matters, to achieve the practical objective of keeping our

:56:18. > :56:23.country safe. They are absolutely critical. As I said to the Minister

:56:24. > :56:30.of State, much of these issues are not about our domestically

:56:31. > :56:34.determined criminal law being over weened, supervened, by some

:56:35. > :56:39.international system. These are matters of practical cooperation in

:56:40. > :56:42.tracking down the rest of subjects, suspects, the exchange of

:56:43. > :56:46.information and the enforcement of Court judgments to everybody's

:56:47. > :56:50.mutual advantage. In all member states of the EU have varying

:56:51. > :56:54.degrees of approach to the criminal justice system. Ours is particularly

:56:55. > :56:58.different because of our common law system of which we are immensely

:56:59. > :57:02.proud. It does not mean, and I hope people will never suspect it means

:57:03. > :57:06.the systems of other European member states should automatically be

:57:07. > :57:12.regarded as inferior to ours. Some of us occasionally in this country

:57:13. > :57:16.are too sniffy about the quality of the justice systems of other

:57:17. > :57:19.European member states. I have no hesitation whatever in commending

:57:20. > :57:27.the integrity of the justice systems of France, Germany, Italy, many

:57:28. > :57:27.others. As I would to those of Scotland, Ireland or Northern

:57:28. > :57:36.Ireland, for that matter. Cheesemaking is a very good points

:57:37. > :57:40.but would he not concur as a fellow member of the Council of Europe,

:57:41. > :57:44.some of the prison systems he and I have both probably visited simply do

:57:45. > :57:49.not come up to British standards. With Greece in particular. I thought

:57:50. > :57:54.that might be the issue that was going to be raised and that is why I

:57:55. > :57:57.was going to say, firstly, it doesn't alter the importance of the

:57:58. > :58:01.criminal justice cooperation. Secondly, where that has been

:58:02. > :58:09.relevant as a criticism of the arrest warrant in the past, for

:58:10. > :58:13.example, it is past history, because what's not often recognised enough,

:58:14. > :58:19.there are important amendments made to the European arrest warrant in

:58:20. > :58:24.2014. When we had evidence from both the criminal lawyers Society and the

:58:25. > :58:31.criminal bar Association, they concurred very strongly the

:58:32. > :58:35.amendments in 2014 had removed the risks that got the unfortunate Mr

:58:36. > :58:41.sinew in his position. I give way to my honourable friend. It's a great

:58:42. > :58:44.pleasure to serve under his chairmanship. I think the point the

:58:45. > :58:48.honourable member for Monmouth was making in his intervention on the

:58:49. > :58:54.Minister, which is a cause for concern for me, is sometimes

:58:55. > :59:00.countries in the EU issue their European arrest warrant for very

:59:01. > :59:07.minor offences. The example of the individual who had a warrant issued

:59:08. > :59:11.because he had stolen a bicycle. It's important individual countries

:59:12. > :59:14.focus on the reason they take up their arrest warrants. I've always

:59:15. > :59:17.regarded this as a serious thing when a European arrest warrant is

:59:18. > :59:23.issued, not for the minor offences some countries use. The important

:59:24. > :59:29.thing there, and I accept the issue is a significant one, those two

:59:30. > :59:34.amendments did two things. Firstly Beirut any risk of extradition

:59:35. > :59:38.before commencement of proceedings. Secondly, they introduced in the UK

:59:39. > :59:43.a proportionality filter. It would be a better if other members of the

:59:44. > :59:46.European arrest warrant had a proportionality filter. The evidence

:59:47. > :59:51.we had from Professor Wilson of the Northumbria University criminal

:59:52. > :59:53.Justice Centre, it seems even Poland, which has resisted

:59:54. > :00:00.proportionality filters in the past, is moving in that direction. We're

:00:01. > :00:03.in an improving situation. The fact we have those two important

:00:04. > :00:07.safeguard is significant and it's important the European arrest

:00:08. > :00:12.warrant system is a court driven system, subject to judicial

:00:13. > :00:16.supervision, rather than being an executive act of extradition. That's

:00:17. > :00:20.like it'll be undesirable for us to lose the advantage of the European

:00:21. > :00:28.arrest warrant and have to fall back to the 1957 extradition convention,

:00:29. > :00:31.a purely administrative act through diplomatic channels without the

:00:32. > :00:32.protection of court intervention or review and was also much more

:00:33. > :00:44.cumbersome. I'll give way. It has been a pleasure to serve

:00:45. > :00:47.under the fine gentleman. I wonder if he will comment on some of the

:00:48. > :00:50.comments made by my colleague, notwithstanding the clear desire of

:00:51. > :00:56.my colic to stay within the European arrest warrant, there will be issues

:00:57. > :01:02.with the data-sharing regimes in the European Union and the UK, and how

:01:03. > :01:04.he thinks that could be reconciled following the UK leaving the

:01:05. > :01:09.European Union. It is clear from the evidence we have that the government

:01:10. > :01:15.will have to take that on board. We will have to add header not just to

:01:16. > :01:20.European standards of data protection, -- red hair, for them to

:01:21. > :01:23.be able to share with us, maybe in relation to other third-party

:01:24. > :01:30.countries, that we and they have to be prepared to adhere to

:01:31. > :01:35.international standards. That will also involve some form of

:01:36. > :01:37.international adjudicative process, where there are disputes between

:01:38. > :01:41.member states. Not going to try and tie the member down as to how best

:01:42. > :01:46.we solve that, but there are serious issues that we have to have on the

:01:47. > :01:49.board from day one in our negotiations. Equally, when they

:01:50. > :01:56.talk about involvement with some of the other agents as we referred to,

:01:57. > :01:59.a number of very valuable tools, there is a financial cost to the

:02:00. > :02:03.development of those databases, and I certainly would say to the

:02:04. > :02:06.government, do not be afraid to continue to make financial

:02:07. > :02:09.contribution to the development and maintenance of those databases.

:02:10. > :02:14.That'll be a very small price to pay in terms of the advantage of

:02:15. > :02:17.protection to the British public. I think there is common ground on the

:02:18. > :02:21.objective of the European arrest warrant. I want to just two raids

:02:22. > :02:31.some practical issues will have to grasp if we are to succeed -- I just

:02:32. > :02:34.want to raise. Can I just refer also to the other matters of concern.

:02:35. > :02:42.Cooperation between the courts, that is involving the continued

:02:43. > :02:46.membership or association of Eurojust. There is a present for

:02:47. > :02:50.non-member states continue to cooperate with Eurojust. Norway has

:02:51. > :02:55.a cooperation agreement, and has liaison prosecutors based at

:02:56. > :02:59.Eurojust. We would if we leave the EU, as it stands have to move from

:03:00. > :03:03.being National college members, but it could have that Norwegian star

:03:04. > :03:14.status. Perhaps we should be bold though untried idea to remain --

:03:15. > :03:18.Norwegian style status. I hear what the gentlemen are saying about

:03:19. > :03:21.Norway, but is he aware that the Prime Minister in her former role as

:03:22. > :03:25.Home Secretary was very disparaging about the abilities of Norway and

:03:26. > :03:29.Switzerland outside the EU bloc, because they don't have access to

:03:30. > :03:32.all the tools and have to do things like come under the jurisdiction of

:03:33. > :03:44.the European Court of Justice while not having the same input into the

:03:45. > :03:51.lawmaking processes. Prior to the referendum,... I accept the verdict

:03:52. > :03:55.of the British people, and we must find a practical means of achieving

:03:56. > :04:01.the objective that we want, and will be better to get something far

:04:02. > :04:04.better than what Norway has, therefore we should start by wanting

:04:05. > :04:13.to be National associates. We have nothing to lose from pressing flak

:04:14. > :04:20.from the beginning. In April last, the Prime Minister's referred to the

:04:21. > :04:25.whole system, the prisoner transfer unit, joint investigation teams and

:04:26. > :04:30.others, she referred to all of those matters in these terms, these are

:04:31. > :04:33.practical measures that promote effective cooperation between

:04:34. > :04:37.different European law enforcement organisations, and if we're not part

:04:38. > :04:44.of them, Britain would be less so. As Francis Fitzgibbons, chair of the

:04:45. > :04:48.criminal bar Association, that'll be a good starting point to bring the

:04:49. > :04:53.whole area into greater prominence since and a great starting point for

:04:54. > :04:57.our objectives. Repeatedly, the witnesses that we had to just a

:04:58. > :05:04.select committee said that this is part of a mutually reinforcing

:05:05. > :05:08.system of justice cooperation. The information exchanges, the ability

:05:09. > :05:12.to enforce court judgment, the ability for example to seek a

:05:13. > :05:16.European information or to come to get evidence from abroad, these are

:05:17. > :05:24.all part of the same process. And that is why it is critical that we

:05:25. > :05:29.set the highest possible level of objective for seeking our continued

:05:30. > :05:33.engagement with these matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is an important

:05:34. > :05:37.debate because it is an immensely important topic. Those of us who now

:05:38. > :05:41.do want to move on constructively from what's been a bruising

:05:42. > :05:46.experience for this country on any view, want to do so on the basis of

:05:47. > :05:50.an ambition to protect the country, but also to recognise that both our

:05:51. > :05:54.judicial system and our police force is immensely highly regarding, not

:05:55. > :05:57.just in Europe, but internationally. We have something to bring to the

:05:58. > :06:03.table as well -- highly regarded. As I hope the Minister will take this

:06:04. > :06:09.point on board in a bold and highly ambitious negotiation. I wish him

:06:10. > :06:13.and his colleagues were with it. It's a pleasure to follow my select

:06:14. > :06:17.committee chaired colleague, the rumble member for Bromley and

:06:18. > :06:20.Chislehurst. That the honourable member. I agree with him on many

:06:21. > :06:25.points you made about the detail of the importance of continued European

:06:26. > :06:31.cooperation as well. Like him, I voted to trigger Article 50 by the

:06:32. > :06:34.end of March, whilst like him I wanted us to remain, I believe we

:06:35. > :06:41.should respect the referendum result. That means getting on with

:06:42. > :06:46.the detailed and hard work of how we get the best possible deal for

:06:47. > :06:51.Britain outside the EU. And I would join the member for Edinburgh South

:06:52. > :06:56.West in putting out the caution that we should have in assuming that some

:06:57. > :06:59.of this is going to be easy. To get the detail right particularly on the

:07:00. > :07:02.important law enforcement issues, where if we don't have the right

:07:03. > :07:06.kind of legal basis for the corporation that we want to see, we

:07:07. > :07:10.simply won't be able to use the information or intelligence that we

:07:11. > :07:14.have in order to lock people up who have committed crimes, in order to

:07:15. > :07:19.take the action that we need to keep people safe. I had this is an error

:07:20. > :07:22.where there is considerable consensus about the objectives that

:07:23. > :07:27.we should have, not just across this has in terms of our objectives in

:07:28. > :07:31.cooperating to keep Britain safe, but also across Europe -- this

:07:32. > :07:35.House, where that cooperation between Britain and other European

:07:36. > :07:39.countries has saved people's lives, has protected us from terror

:07:40. > :07:43.threats, from serious crime as well. And the Prime Minister is right when

:07:44. > :07:46.she said yesterday that with the threats to our common security

:07:47. > :07:50.becoming more serious, our response cannot be to cooperate with one

:07:51. > :07:57.another less, but to work together more. But so far, we have heard very

:07:58. > :08:01.little from the Home Secretary and with the greatest respect for the

:08:02. > :08:07.policing minister, I am disappointed that the Home Secretary has not come

:08:08. > :08:10.to the house today the debate. Given the seriousness of these issues and

:08:11. > :08:13.also the fact that the Prime Minister highlighted, the importance

:08:14. > :08:19.of Parliamentary solitary as part of this debate, I do think we do need

:08:20. > :08:30.to hear more from the Home Secretary, will be calling her to

:08:31. > :08:33.come to the select committee -- the parliamentary sovereignty. It is a

:08:34. > :08:39.disappointment that there is no Home Office minister here for a debate on

:08:40. > :08:41.something which will have huge repercussions for our security

:08:42. > :08:51.operations for very many decades to come. Obviously the work on security

:08:52. > :08:54.will sit as part of a wider government plan for getting the best

:08:55. > :09:00.Brexit deal and the best Brexit settlement. Yesterday the Prime

:09:01. > :09:04.Minister talked particularly about trade and pledged to get her free

:09:05. > :09:08.trade and a better overall deal for British people's jobs outside the

:09:09. > :09:11.single market and Customs union. The government will know there is

:09:12. > :09:14.considerable concern about whether ditching these long established

:09:15. > :09:19.trade and customs deal is really going to deliver us a better deal

:09:20. > :09:23.for jobs, employment protection and environmental standards here in

:09:24. > :09:30.Britain. Her ministers will need to provide, considering -- Anita

:09:31. > :09:36.provide considerably more evidence -- is a social and economic

:09:37. > :09:40.standards that matter so not much -- so much as well. And the government

:09:41. > :09:42.needs to say more about its approach to immigration. Among those who has

:09:43. > :09:47.for some time believe that we needed to change free movement, and I think

:09:48. > :09:50.there are particular concerns about unrestricted low skilled migration,

:09:51. > :09:54.and we will need a sensible debate about how to get the best deal for

:09:55. > :09:57.Britain on both jobs and immigration so that will benefit from

:09:58. > :10:03.international talent and from economic trade as well. But there is

:10:04. > :10:06.some confusion and some questions a result of mixed messages from the

:10:07. > :10:10.government, it would be very helpful if the Minister could clarify as he

:10:11. > :10:15.speaks from the Brexit department. With some suggesting that

:10:16. > :10:18.immigration will not be part of the discussions and the negotiations

:10:19. > :10:23.about trade, that these issues would be kept separate in the

:10:24. > :10:27.negotiations. Others saying no, debate about future immigration

:10:28. > :10:33.rules will be dealt with alongside the trade negotiations. It would be

:10:34. > :10:40.fair important to understand whether the negotiations about customs union

:10:41. > :10:42.and the single market are stand-alone trade negotiations, or

:10:43. > :10:48.whether it will be a wider debate looking at options around

:10:49. > :10:51.immigration and trade as well. Can I congratulate her on all the eggs and

:10:52. > :11:01.watches doing as the chair of the home affairs select committee -- or

:11:02. > :11:04.the excellent work she's doing. Especially with regards to the

:11:05. > :11:07.rights of EU citizens, are going to have another debate? Or are we

:11:08. > :11:12.supposed to discuss all these matters in this debate to do with

:11:13. > :11:19.home affairs and Justice? Does she know? I think my honourable friend

:11:20. > :11:23.and commend him for his many years of fantastic work on the home

:11:24. > :11:27.affairs and select committee. No, I don't know what the plans are for

:11:28. > :11:31.further debate about immigration. Maybe the Minister macro can

:11:32. > :11:37.enlighten us, because clearly it will be one of the central issues to

:11:38. > :11:41.be discussed. If it is included in the debate, that will affect the

:11:42. > :11:46.kind of deal, the kind of agreement that we get, so it is important for

:11:47. > :11:55.us to have some clarity. About what those plans are. Turning to these

:11:56. > :11:58.crucial security issues. Shall be well aware that there are a number

:11:59. > :12:02.of different options for immigration, from those in EU member

:12:03. > :12:05.states and I'm sure she won't miss the opportunity to advertise the

:12:06. > :12:09.Home Affairs Select Committee's big conversation going around the

:12:10. > :12:12.country to discuss this issue, and indeed encourage honourable members

:12:13. > :12:20.to contribute and their constituents to do so as well. He's exactly

:12:21. > :12:23.right, and I'm glad that as a fellow member of the Home Affairs Select

:12:24. > :12:28.Committee he has reminded me to say that this is something that is, I

:12:29. > :12:32.think, going to need to involve people from right across the country

:12:33. > :12:36.having their say. About what the right immigration options should be

:12:37. > :12:39.for Britain, about we know that immigration is important for our

:12:40. > :12:42.future but also needs to be controlled and managed in a way that

:12:43. > :12:45.is fair. But people have different views about how that should happen.

:12:46. > :12:49.My view is that there is actually rather more consensus than people

:12:50. > :12:52.sometimes think, in the polarised debate that sometimes take place on

:12:53. > :12:57.immigration. We do believe that all members of the House should have

:12:58. > :13:00.their say as part of that, and we'll be holding regional hearings and

:13:01. > :13:05.regional evidence since around the country and urging honourable

:13:06. > :13:10.members to consult their members are not there want to see -- evidence

:13:11. > :13:18.sessions. As part of the future arrangements. Let me turn to the

:13:19. > :13:22.security issues. The Minister, policing Minister set out a very

:13:23. > :13:27.broad brush approach, and my honourable friend the shadow

:13:28. > :13:31.policing Minister set out a very forensic response, and a very

:13:32. > :13:34.thorough and detailed set of questions that weren't really

:13:35. > :13:39.addressed in the policing Minister's initial outlines. He talked about

:13:40. > :13:45.the value of our relationships and of the importance of joint working.

:13:46. > :13:48.But in these three crucial areas, Europol, the European arrest warrant

:13:49. > :13:54.and on the databases, we do need much more reassurance from the

:13:55. > :13:56.government that they're taking this immensely seriously, because it will

:13:57. > :14:01.have huge implications for our security if we don't get this right.

:14:02. > :14:07.On the Europol membership, there is no precedent for a non-EU member to

:14:08. > :14:10.be in Europol. But I'd be grateful for confirmation from the Minister

:14:11. > :14:16.that there is also nothing in the treaties that would rule this out.

:14:17. > :14:20.So if we are looking for our bespoke arrangement, perhaps he could

:14:21. > :14:24.confirm there is nothing to prevent as asking to continue our existing

:14:25. > :14:30.Europol membership, given the crucial role that Britain has played

:14:31. > :14:34.in shaping Europol in the first place, and in raising the standards

:14:35. > :14:38.of policing and cross-border policing in other countries across

:14:39. > :14:46.Europe to meet the standards that we have here in the cave. He will know,

:14:47. > :14:50.to -- in the UK, the UK uses Europol more than almost any other country

:14:51. > :14:54.in the EU, we provide more intelligence and play a leading role

:14:55. > :15:00.as well. I'd have been involved in things like operation golf,

:15:01. > :15:09.involving the Met and Europol, which rescued 28 children which are being

:15:10. > :15:13.exploited by a remaining -- a Romanian criminal gang network. Also

:15:14. > :15:21.an online child abuse network, leading to 200 rest in the UK. That

:15:22. > :15:26.kind of work between Europol is immensely important. Urging

:15:27. > :15:29.government to pursue full membership of Europol, and if not, something

:15:30. > :15:34.that frankly looks like it, sounds like it and smells like it so that

:15:35. > :15:35.it delivers exactly the kind of security arrangements that we have

:15:36. > :15:40.at the moment. Secondly on the European arrest

:15:41. > :15:44.warrant again, we need something that looks like it, feels like it,

:15:45. > :15:49.sounds like it, smelt like it, that pretty much is the European arrest

:15:50. > :15:52.warrant. And the idea of reinventing something from scratch, having to

:15:53. > :15:56.renegotiate, as other countries like Norway and Iceland have done, has

:15:57. > :16:01.taken them many years to do so and the length of time involved in

:16:02. > :16:05.renegotiating those sort of extradition agreements, whether it's

:16:06. > :16:09.with the rest of the EU or individual countries, can cause huge

:16:10. > :16:14.long delays and considerable legal uncertainty as well. The government,

:16:15. > :16:21.I know, is well aware of the importance of the European arrest

:16:22. > :16:25.warrant. It was part of our discussion when we discussed that

:16:26. > :16:30.over the last few years. I hope we'll continue to make sure that we

:16:31. > :16:36.can respond to the up to 1000 European arrest warrant is each year

:16:37. > :16:40.which involve us being able to deport two other countries. There

:16:41. > :16:45.are suspected criminals who would otherwise be able to find greater

:16:46. > :16:50.sanctuary here. The most challenging one of all, the one the police who

:16:51. > :16:55.gave test Amir and evidence to the select committee raised, was in fact

:16:56. > :16:58.the access to information and databases. And that shared

:16:59. > :17:03.information across Europe. Here is what the deputy director of the

:17:04. > :17:07.National crime agency said... He said, if we are curtailed in our

:17:08. > :17:11.ability to access intelligent Systems, our overseas partners have

:17:12. > :17:14.put in place, we may risk people hurting children or committing harm

:17:15. > :17:20.because we cannot put that picture together. My response to you is:

:17:21. > :17:27.yes, it increases the risk. The member for West Ham gave on account

:17:28. > :17:37.of the debate are bases and the challenges they present. The second

:17:38. > :17:41.generation Schengen information system, the Europol information

:17:42. > :17:47.system. On the Europe or information system, some of Europe or's

:17:48. > :17:51.cooperation partners can store and query the data in the centre but

:17:52. > :17:57.they can't have direct access, it's the direct access that is what is so

:17:58. > :18:03.important. From the passenger name record directive, so many of these

:18:04. > :18:09.directives. If we are outside the EU and trying to arrange a bespoke new

:18:10. > :18:16.arrangement for the European Commission, be forced to make

:18:17. > :18:21.adequacy assessments. Once we check article 50 and we're setting out new

:18:22. > :18:26.arrangements from outside EU, we will expect to have to have an

:18:27. > :18:30.adequacy assessments by the European Commission under their legal

:18:31. > :18:33.arrangements. However, as the member for Edinburgh South West pointed

:18:34. > :18:38.out, there are some challenges with getting that data adequacy

:18:39. > :18:44.assessment in place. And whilst this ought to be the kind of thing that,

:18:45. > :18:47.given our shared objectives in security and intelligence

:18:48. > :18:51.cooperation, all of it ought to be solvable. It's another reason why

:18:52. > :18:55.this takes time in order to get it right and why we can't simply assume

:18:56. > :18:59.because we have the same shared objectives, therefore it'll all be

:19:00. > :19:07.solved and all come out in the wash. And so I think if our objectives are

:19:08. > :19:13.to stay in Europe, in the European arrest warrant, and to keep access

:19:14. > :19:16.to those crucial databases, actually it would be helpful if the

:19:17. > :19:20.government could say that and could say those are our objectives, rather

:19:21. > :19:24.than simply the broadbrush statements which are simply that we

:19:25. > :19:29.want to continue with cooperation around security. It would give

:19:30. > :19:31.greater certainty for the police and law enforcement officers about what

:19:32. > :19:36.they should be focusing on and what they should be planning for as well.

:19:37. > :19:40.The Minister will know the importance of, if we're not able to

:19:41. > :19:43.do this, having transitional arrangements in place because if we

:19:44. > :19:47.don't people's lives will be at risk. We leave with one final

:19:48. > :19:51.thought about the way in which the negotiations take place. I'm

:19:52. > :19:55.worried, I've raised my concern about Home Office ministers and the

:19:56. > :19:58.Home Secretary not being here, I'm concerned because there is shared

:19:59. > :20:03.agreement on the objectives both in the and across Europe that somehow

:20:04. > :20:06.this will be treated as a lower priority in the negotiations. It's

:20:07. > :20:10.not as controversial as some of the other issues that we will all row

:20:11. > :20:14.about. It's not going to be, therefore, one of the main thing is

:20:15. > :20:18.the Prime Minister will keep her attention on continually. However it

:20:19. > :20:21.has to be taken immensely seriously otherwise it'll slip between peoples

:20:22. > :20:27.fingers and we'll end up with it not being ready in time, the details not

:20:28. > :20:32.ready in time, and not sorted out. My other concern is this should not

:20:33. > :20:35.be used as a bargaining chip in the wider negotiations. There will be

:20:36. > :20:40.all kinds of rows and debates and trade-offs that will take place

:20:41. > :20:43.across Europe around trade, around immigration rules, those sorts of

:20:44. > :20:48.things, but we should not have trade-offs around security. It would

:20:49. > :20:51.be better if these issues around security, corporation, could be

:20:52. > :20:54.treated as a separate part of the negotiations and could be dealt with

:20:55. > :21:02.as rapidly as possible to get some early security and show the

:21:03. > :21:06.government is putting sufficient attention into it. In the end, we

:21:07. > :21:09.will hold further evidence sessions as part of our select committee and

:21:10. > :21:13.I'm sure other select committees and other members of the house will be

:21:14. > :21:17.scrutinising this in detail. It is the final thought, which is that

:21:18. > :21:23.Britain voted to leave the EU, nobody voted to make Britain less

:21:24. > :21:27.safe. That is why safety and security, you know, will be

:21:28. > :21:30.something the government will take seriously. It needs to be

:21:31. > :21:35.sufficiently seriously to make sure we don't get an inadvertent gap in

:21:36. > :21:39.that security arrangement that ends up putting lives at risk. In the end

:21:40. > :21:44.when we are dealing with terror, security, cross-border crime, this

:21:45. > :21:50.is about the government's first duty, to keep its citizens safe.

:21:51. > :21:51.Madam Deputy Speaker it is a pleasure to follow the Right

:21:52. > :22:01.Honourable member for I agree with pretty much everything

:22:02. > :22:06.she said. During the referendum campaign one of the aspects that did

:22:07. > :22:09.not feature particularly dominantly was security. I can understand why

:22:10. > :22:13.that was the case, a lot of what we've been talking about today is

:22:14. > :22:16.very complex and doesn't fit easily into a short sound bite. But also

:22:17. > :22:22.because a lot of the security cooperation we have is done not to

:22:23. > :22:25.our membership of the EU, our security against military threats

:22:26. > :22:28.from other countries is protected by our membership of Nato and other

:22:29. > :22:33.alliances and bilateral relationships. Our security in terms

:22:34. > :22:40.of terror arrest is dealt with on a bilateral basis. Country to country

:22:41. > :22:44.between intelligence agencies. And also through multilateral agreements

:22:45. > :22:47.such as the five eyes intelligence alliance comprising Australia,

:22:48. > :22:54.Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand and the USA. These relationships are

:22:55. > :22:57.entirely separate to our membership of the EU and are in no way

:22:58. > :23:01.compromised by this country's decision to leave and to that extent

:23:02. > :23:05.I never subscribed to the claims of some on my side of the referendum

:23:06. > :23:09.campaign, Remain, that we would suddenly become a very dangerous

:23:10. > :23:11.place in the event of a boat to leave or indeed a ridiculous

:23:12. > :23:19.hyperbole that Isis would be delighted by a lever vote. -- vote

:23:20. > :23:24.to leave. Mark Rowley the Assistant Commissioner for operations at the

:23:25. > :23:28.Met police reported there had been an increasing cooperation between

:23:29. > :23:32.European member state police and intelligence agencies since the vote

:23:33. > :23:40.to leave and this cooperation on an ad hoc basis was no doubt do to and

:23:41. > :23:42.necessitated by intelligence shortcomings before some of the

:23:43. > :23:47.recent terrorist atrocities in Europe. To focus on military and

:23:48. > :23:50.high-level intelligence cooperation and counterterrorism that takes

:23:51. > :23:57.place outside the EU architecture would be to ignore the many policing

:23:58. > :24:02.and criminal justice measures inside the EU structures that we're today.

:24:03. > :24:07.And that makes the police's practical work keeping us safe

:24:08. > :24:10.easier and more efficient. I've spoken to a number of police

:24:11. > :24:15.officers in my previous work as a barrister, used to act for and

:24:16. > :24:18.against the police regularly. I know many police officers, locally and

:24:19. > :24:25.outside my own area, some who voted to leave, some who voted to remain.

:24:26. > :24:28.All of them had in common a clear desire for our existing police and

:24:29. > :24:33.criminal Justice cooperation to stay the same or be replicated as closely

:24:34. > :24:38.as possible. Indeed just last night I was speaking to Gavin Thomas,

:24:39. > :24:41.Chief Superintendent and president of the police superintendents

:24:42. > :24:43.Association for England and Wales at an event which a number of

:24:44. > :24:49.honourable and right Honourable members were present. He was giving

:24:50. > :24:54.me the example of DNA where access to EU databases allowed checks to be

:24:55. > :25:01.performed within 15 minutes that previously took days or weeks. He is

:25:02. > :25:06.a full supporter, as are the needs of many other stuff associations in

:25:07. > :25:09.the police, and senior police officers, of maintaining our current

:25:10. > :25:13.relationships with the EU in terms of policing and criminal justice. My

:25:14. > :25:19.honourable friend makes a very powerful point. Is he aware there is

:25:20. > :25:24.some evidence in relation to SI, the Schengen information system where

:25:25. > :25:30.the National crime agency said loss of access to SI as two would

:25:31. > :25:34.seriously inhibit the UK ability to identify and arrest people who pose

:25:35. > :25:38.a public threat and a security threat. I entirely agree with the

:25:39. > :25:42.Right Honourable member and in fact I don't think there is a single

:25:43. > :25:47.senior police officer or police organisation that takes a view

:25:48. > :25:52.counter to the one that he has just outlined. Outside the police, apart

:25:53. > :25:56.from some concerns, which I do not share, about the European arrest

:25:57. > :26:00.warrant, I do not detect any desire in the public for there to be any

:26:01. > :26:07.rowing back on our policing and criminal justice corporations with

:26:08. > :26:09.the EU. Even in this place I don't detect any such appetite either.

:26:10. > :26:16.Certainly since I've been in this place, the only pushed back,

:26:17. > :26:21.particularly from these benches, has been the requirement to submit to

:26:22. > :26:24.the oversight of the European Court of Justice. If that's taken out of

:26:25. > :26:28.the equation, and I'll come back to it shortly, I doubt there would be a

:26:29. > :26:36.voice of dissent in this place to the panoply of policing criminal

:26:37. > :26:41.justice cooperation to be enjoy. Time doesn't permit me to go through

:26:42. > :26:45.every one of them, I'll focus on four. Europol exists to assist law

:26:46. > :26:50.enforcement agencies in member states tackling cross-border crime,

:26:51. > :26:53.it focuses on gathering, organising and disseminating information rather

:26:54. > :26:57.than on conducting investigations itself. The UK has 12 liaison

:26:58. > :27:01.officers at Europol headquarters in the Hague and I was able to visit

:27:02. > :27:04.with colleagues from the home affairs committee last year,

:27:05. > :27:08.including the Right Honourable member for Leicester East. It was a

:27:09. > :27:12.very impressive operation indeed. It's important to note Europol has

:27:13. > :27:16.representatives from non-EU countries like Norway and the US and

:27:17. > :27:19.we had a long conversation with representatives from the US who have

:27:20. > :27:24.a very significant presence from the Department of Homeland Security.

:27:25. > :27:28.From the conversation we had from them it wasn't immediately clear

:27:29. > :27:31.they were significantly worse off from not being a member of the EU

:27:32. > :27:38.but it is certainly the case they don't have the automatic right to

:27:39. > :27:44.access to information on the Europol information system that members of

:27:45. > :27:47.the EU have. There is a specific provision, that have access on a

:27:48. > :27:53.case-by-case, supervised basis. We were also able to meet online

:27:54. > :27:57.counter radicalisation officers from the European cybercrime Centre. An

:27:58. > :28:01.initiative very much championed by our Prime Minister when she was Home

:28:02. > :28:04.Secretary. I mentioned the Europe or information system, the central

:28:05. > :28:07.database with information on suspected criminals and objects

:28:08. > :28:10.associated with crime such as Europe. If your vehicle is suspected

:28:11. > :28:16.of being connected with a crime in Kingston, British police officers

:28:17. > :28:20.can search the EIF to find out if there is other information on the

:28:21. > :28:28.vehicle or people associated with it anywhere else in the EU. In 2015, UK

:28:29. > :28:34.sent and received 27,000 alerts to Europol channels. Half of which

:28:35. > :28:39.related to high priority threats like child sex exploitation and

:28:40. > :28:43.firearms. As crime and criminals respect state borders less and less,

:28:44. > :28:50.the role of Europol in supporting cross-border cooperation will only

:28:51. > :28:55.increase, and be more and more vital, it must be retained and

:28:56. > :29:03.retained with British involvement. Like the EIS, it allows and

:29:04. > :29:06.facilitate searches of each other's database for fingerprints, DNA

:29:07. > :29:13.profiles and vehicle registration details, the UK has not implemented

:29:14. > :29:19.it. I believe it will later this year. It ran a pilot of the DNA

:29:20. > :29:23.profile exchange in 2015 and as already cut explain, they had from a

:29:24. > :29:26.senior police officer just yesterday, it's allowed checks to be

:29:27. > :29:37.performed in 15 minutes that would previously have taken hours or days.

:29:38. > :29:41.As the chamber's resident expert on PRUM, does he agree with me it's

:29:42. > :29:45.very important to continue to implement PRUM irrespective of our

:29:46. > :29:52.decision to come out of the European Union, because it provides important

:29:53. > :29:58.data sharing on DNA and fingerprints. We've made the

:29:59. > :30:01.decision, we should continue with that, pending negotiations. Pending

:30:02. > :30:07.negotiations we should continue down the path of integration in all these

:30:08. > :30:12.policing and criminal justice measures, that we've already done

:30:13. > :30:18.with respect to Europol. In a decision made and approved by this

:30:19. > :30:21.house just last month. Moving onto another important measure, much like

:30:22. > :30:26.the measure the Right Honourable member was just referring to, the

:30:27. > :30:32.passenger name record directive, something we both saw and had

:30:33. > :30:38.explained to us at Copenhagen airport. This is a common system for

:30:39. > :30:42.collecting and processing data held by airlines including names, travel

:30:43. > :30:45.dates, itineraries, seat numbers, baggage and means of payment. These

:30:46. > :30:47.date is vitally important in tracking criminal and terrorist

:30:48. > :30:52.movements to prevent and detect crime.

:30:53. > :30:59.It is important to note that the EU has bilateral data-sharing

:31:00. > :31:02.arrangements with the US, Australia and Canada and its negotiating

:31:03. > :31:06.arrangements with the EU. There is no good reason why a non-EU country

:31:07. > :31:10.cannot participate in what is clearly a system that has mutual

:31:11. > :31:15.benefit. Finally, the European arrest warrant. This has had a

:31:16. > :31:18.transformative effect on the police and prosecuting authorities'

:31:19. > :31:21.abilities to get those who need to face justice in the UK, be that

:31:22. > :31:26.prosecution or a prison sentence, back to the UK to do so. It bypasses

:31:27. > :31:35.the fiendishly complicated extradition rules that apply with

:31:36. > :31:37.respect to some other countries. Because countries who are members of

:31:38. > :31:39.the European arrest warrant cannot refuse to extradite their own

:31:40. > :31:45.citizens, and there are legally mandated time limits during which

:31:46. > :31:49.extraditions have to take place. In 2015-16, 2102 individuals were

:31:50. > :31:52.arrested in the UK and deported on European arrest warrant is, people

:31:53. > :32:00.we plainly do not want in this country. We have been able to repay

:32:01. > :32:06.trade over 2500 individuals from EU countries since we've been a member

:32:07. > :32:11.-- repatriate. Including some well known terrorists, serious criminals,

:32:12. > :32:15.paedophiles and there is a list of very high profile cases I don't need

:32:16. > :32:21.to go into. I agree with the right Honourable Lady for West Ham, that

:32:22. > :32:25.this is the most effective extradition system in the world, and

:32:26. > :32:31.it would be madness to be in a situation where we have to leave it.

:32:32. > :32:37.I'm very grateful, and I'm not an expert on this subject, but there is

:32:38. > :32:44.concern that UK citizens could under the EA W find themselves extradited

:32:45. > :32:48.to other EU countries where the just and -- justice system. To what we

:32:49. > :32:54.would regard as adequate. Does he have any concerns about that? Am

:32:55. > :33:01.sure we will hear his expertise in the defence field in a few moments.

:33:02. > :33:04.I think the starting point of the EAW system is that anyone within the

:33:05. > :33:08.system has legal system which will give a British citizen a fair

:33:09. > :33:12.hearing in the same way citizens of that country would have a fair

:33:13. > :33:16.hearing here. That is just starting assumption, and I think that's why

:33:17. > :33:20.this House approved our membership of the European arrest warrant

:33:21. > :33:23.system. I accept there are a number of people who hold the view the

:33:24. > :33:28.Right Honourable member does, or at least that he refers to, and I did

:33:29. > :33:31.refer to that in opening. On balance, the majority of people in

:33:32. > :33:38.this House and this country think that being a member of the European

:33:39. > :33:41.arrest warrant keeps us safer. Perhaps my right honourable friend

:33:42. > :33:45.would like to know that that was the view of both the criminal solicitors

:33:46. > :33:49.is Association who represent defendants and the criminal bar

:33:50. > :33:53.Association. On balance it was an advantage, because it has judicial

:33:54. > :33:57.overview, unlike the classic extradition, which is an executive

:33:58. > :34:01.process. Thank you for that very helpful intervention. There are many

:34:02. > :34:05.other measures that I could go through, to mention a few, but

:34:06. > :34:09.European criminal records information system, the Schengen

:34:10. > :34:14.information system, too. The system for providing enforcement alerts to

:34:15. > :34:18.those wanted, including those wanted European arrest warrant, which

:34:19. > :34:24.includes over 17 million live alerts. The European image archiving

:34:25. > :34:29.system, a database of genuine and counterfeit ID documents and col

:34:30. > :34:37.stumps. In all of these fields, I agree with the right honourable lady

:34:38. > :34:43.that we should be aiming for full membership or the closest possible

:34:44. > :34:46.approximation to full membership. So I turned to the UK's position on

:34:47. > :34:51.these matters. Since the general election, the government has put us

:34:52. > :34:56.in a good position to take forward policing and justice cooperation

:34:57. > :35:03.with the EU. First in December 2015, we decided to opt into prom two,

:35:04. > :35:06.second in December 2016, we decided to opt into new regulations

:35:07. > :35:09.governing Europol, and I was pleased to sit on the European committee

:35:10. > :35:11.that approved that decision unanimously. Third, yesterday the

:35:12. > :35:27.Prime Minister set out how a global Britain will continue to

:35:28. > :35:30.cooperate with its European partners in the fight against the common

:35:31. > :35:32.threats of crime and terrorism. She made clear that she wanted our

:35:33. > :35:34.future relationship with the EU to include practical arrangements on

:35:35. > :35:36.matters of law enforcement and the sharing of intelligence material

:35:37. > :35:39.with our EU allies. That came as no surprise, and she had personally led

:35:40. > :35:42.a number of initiatives in her many years in the Home Office. It is up

:35:43. > :35:46.to the European Union and to other member states whether they agree to

:35:47. > :35:48.allow the UK to remain part of the policing and criminal justice at the

:35:49. > :35:55.texture we are debating this afternoon. I think the case for the

:35:56. > :35:59.EU and EU member states to do so is clear, and probably more clear in

:36:00. > :36:05.this area of cooperation than in any other area of EU cooperation. Not

:36:06. > :36:09.just because this affects the security of every citizen of every

:36:10. > :36:12.EU member state, but because the UK is at the forefront of each and

:36:13. > :36:18.every one of these criminal justice measures. Take Europol. The Europol

:36:19. > :36:21.information system does, I understand, have 40% of its

:36:22. > :36:27.contributions on to the shared intelligence system from the United

:36:28. > :36:34.Kingdom. 40%, behind only one country, Germany. And the main

:36:35. > :36:37.contributor contribute in a number of important areas. It will be in

:36:38. > :36:42.the interest of any EU member state or the EU as a whole to shut itself

:36:43. > :36:49.off from access to that vital intelligence: the pursuit of some

:36:50. > :36:52.lofty principle or ideal. This is a matter of practicality. If the

:36:53. > :36:59.tables were turned and an IDE country that contributed 40% of

:37:00. > :37:02.intelligence to Europol, which helps British police officers fight crime

:37:03. > :37:05.were to leave the EU, I would be the first to call on our government to

:37:06. > :37:08.do everything possible to maintain access to that intelligence and

:37:09. > :37:16.preserve our cooperation with that third country -- and another EU

:37:17. > :37:21.country. It would be an act of self defeating nihilism from UK to -- for

:37:22. > :37:25.the EU to shut the UK out of the measures we have been discussing

:37:26. > :37:29.this afternoon. So how could we cooperate outside the EU? Plainly,

:37:30. > :37:33.we could either be allowed to remain a member of these measures, which

:37:34. > :37:39.would require EU legislation to be written. All we could be given

:37:40. > :37:46.informal, or bespoke access, which the US already have Europol. It

:37:47. > :37:51.seems to me that once any legal hurdles are overcome, the two main

:37:52. > :37:55.sticking points will be money and judicial oversight. As to money, I'm

:37:56. > :38:00.clear that we should pay to play. If we're going to benefit from things

:38:01. > :38:05.like Europol, which has an office and staff in the Hague, we should

:38:06. > :38:09.expect to pay for that, and there should be no question that we should

:38:10. > :38:13.contribute. With respect to judicial oversight, I do understand that for

:38:14. > :38:20.many members and honourable members, and indeed for many members of the

:38:21. > :38:23.public who voted to the oversight of these ECJ is a sticking point.

:38:24. > :38:31.Venice to be dealt with case-by-case looking at each of these murders to

:38:32. > :38:34.the measures. -- with each of these measures. There is often an

:38:35. > :38:40.international court would arbitrate in the way that we have the

:38:41. > :38:43.international criminal court. I don't think we will immediately

:38:44. > :38:48.become less safe because we've decided to leave the EU. These

:38:49. > :38:52.measures we are discussing this afternoon are hugely beneficial to

:38:53. > :38:55.law enforcement. The police and the public want us to continue with

:38:56. > :38:59.them, and I'm pleased that the Prime Minister agrees. The litmus test for

:39:00. > :39:03.me with this and all other EU cooperation is simple. If we were

:39:04. > :39:07.not currently a member of the EU, is this something we would be looking

:39:08. > :39:11.to get involved and because it benefits the British people? And

:39:12. > :39:15.with all the measures we are debating today, the answer is a

:39:16. > :39:19.resounding yes. Undoubtedly, there will be legal hurdles, but I hope

:39:20. > :39:27.it's clear that there is willing from our side and I hope the EU will

:39:28. > :39:30.respond in kind. And at the starting point for any negotiations and

:39:31. > :39:33.discussions will not be whether we should do it, but how we should do

:39:34. > :39:37.it. I know that members and Honourable members have come before

:39:38. > :39:41.the house today demanding guarantees and more information, but I think

:39:42. > :39:45.that given the consensus in this area that it falls on a running this

:39:46. > :39:48.House, particularly those with expertise in legal training, to

:39:49. > :39:53.contribute to the question of how we can do that so insists the

:39:54. > :39:57.government in ensuring we maintain -- it assists the government. For

:39:58. > :40:06.the benefit of all our constituents and citizens of Europe and Britain.

:40:07. > :40:11.This is a very important debate, and as it comes the day after the Prime

:40:12. > :40:16.Minister's very important speech, I want to begin briefly by reflecting

:40:17. > :40:19.on what we learned yesterday about the government's objectives in the

:40:20. > :40:23.forthcoming negotiations. It's now clear that ministers are going to

:40:24. > :40:25.seek transitional arrangements, and parliament will have a vote at the

:40:26. > :40:30.end of the process, both things which the select committee called

:40:31. > :40:34.for in our report. I shall observe it was published on Saturday, the

:40:35. > :40:47.Prime Minister adopted those proposals on Tuesday,

:40:48. > :40:49.which three days, somewhat faster than the normal government response

:40:50. > :40:52.to select committee recommendations. Having said that standard, I think

:40:53. > :40:54.the members of the select committee in the chamber tonight will hope

:40:55. > :40:57.that it will be continued. The most significant of the announcements was

:40:58. > :41:00.that we will be out of the single market and partly out of the customs

:41:01. > :41:05.union, and partly in. And in these decisions, and this is the link to

:41:06. > :41:11.today's debate, lies the future of our economic success and our

:41:12. > :41:16.economic security. And yet, it is an trade and our relationship with the

:41:17. > :41:20.customs union that the greatest uncertainty still exists, despite

:41:21. > :41:24.the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. What I say that? Because

:41:25. > :41:30.the government's made it clear that one way or another, it wants to

:41:31. > :41:33.secure continued tariff free and barrier free access for UK

:41:34. > :41:36.businesses to European markets. It could not have been clearer. An

:41:37. > :41:40.objective which incidentally the select committee and was one

:41:41. > :41:46.supported by the vast majority of businesses who gave evidence to us.

:41:47. > :41:50.However, there is no guarantee that this will be achieved. There is no

:41:51. > :41:54.guarantee that the EU will be prepared to give us what they may

:41:55. > :42:02.well regard as the best of both worlds. Free trade with Europe, the

:42:03. > :42:07.right to set our own common external tariff and negotiate a new trade

:42:08. > :42:11.deals. And so, I just observe that the government may be confronted

:42:12. > :42:15.down the line with a rather uncomfortable choice between

:42:16. > :42:19.remaining in the customs union or seeing tariffs and bureaucratic

:42:20. > :42:22.obstacles rising once again between British business and their largest

:42:23. > :42:25.market. Now, what would be the consequences of that? One of the

:42:26. > :42:28.ways in which we could answer that question would be to seek the

:42:29. > :42:34.government's workings. In his evidence to the select committee,

:42:35. > :42:39.the Secretary of State said that the Department was, "In the midst of

:42:40. > :42:44.carrying out 57 sets of analyses, each of which has implications for

:42:45. > :42:47.individual parts of 85% of the economy". In our report, we

:42:48. > :42:50.acknowledge precisely that, that the government is looking at the

:42:51. > :42:55.different options for market access. We then said in our report and I

:42:56. > :43:01.quote, "In the interests of transparency, these should be

:43:02. > :43:04.published alongside the government's plan as long as it doesn't

:43:05. > :43:08.compromise the government's negotiating hand". I would ask the

:43:09. > :43:14.Minister in reply, now that we have the plan, with God the plan, it was

:43:15. > :43:17.a speech yesterday, to House an assurance that these economic

:43:18. > :43:20.assessments will be published so that Parliament, the select

:43:21. > :43:25.committee, Parliament and the public can see for themselves the basis on

:43:26. > :43:28.which the government reached its view, both about leaving the single

:43:29. > :43:35.market and changing our future relationship with the customs union.

:43:36. > :43:41.Now, turning to the broader issues of security and foreign policy. We

:43:42. > :43:45.live in an age in which our very interdependence makes us more

:43:46. > :43:50.vulnerable to crime, to terrorism, to threats to peace and security.

:43:51. > :43:55.And yet, it is that very same interdependence which is the best

:43:56. > :43:59.means we have two deal with those threats. During the referendum

:44:00. > :44:04.campaign, I didn't come across a single person who said to me "I'm

:44:05. > :44:07.voting leave because I object to the United Kingdom and its European

:44:08. > :44:13.neighbours cooperating on policing or justice or security or foreign

:44:14. > :44:16.policy, or the fight against terrorism". Therefore, continued

:44:17. > :44:22.cooperation in all of these errors is not about trying to hold onto

:44:23. > :44:26.bits of membership as we leave -- these areas. It is about ensuring we

:44:27. > :44:33.continue to work together in our shared national interests at a time

:44:34. > :44:38.when there is, let us face it, great instability and great uncertainty.

:44:39. > :44:44.We only have to look around the world. The middle east, still

:44:45. > :44:48.reeling from the Arab Spring and the consequences of people seeking more

:44:49. > :44:53.security, more of a say, better government and the response of those

:44:54. > :44:58.who work, or still are, in control. Respond in many cases that was very

:44:59. > :45:03.violent and very brutal, think of Syria, Libya think of the flow of

:45:04. > :45:08.refugees as a result, including those who have come to the shores of

:45:09. > :45:13.Europe -- a response in many cases. The conflict which has dominated

:45:14. > :45:16.global politics for 50 years, Israel Palestine, remains unresolved. In

:45:17. > :45:21.passing, I welcome the government's support for UN Security Council

:45:22. > :45:24.resolution 2234, which rightly had some strong things to say about the

:45:25. > :45:28.threat from Israeli settlements to the prospects for a two state

:45:29. > :45:33.solution, because we all want a safe and secure Israel living alongside a

:45:34. > :45:36.Palestinian state. Given the number of countries including from Europe

:45:37. > :45:40.who sent ministers to the conference in Paris last Sunday to discuss a

:45:41. > :45:45.way forward, I would say I think the Foreign Secretary should been in

:45:46. > :45:51.seven appearing to undermine the conference by not attending.

:45:52. > :46:03.Across Europe we face an increased threat from Islamist terrorism as

:46:04. > :46:07.the people of Germany and Turkey have recently experienced and the

:46:08. > :46:15.families affected by the tragedy in Seuss in Tunisia whose anniversary

:46:16. > :46:18.is just taking place. We know that China is seeking to establish a

:46:19. > :46:29.presence on rocky outcrops in the South China Sea in response to

:46:30. > :46:37.disputes. We know that Russia resurgent after seizing Crimea,

:46:38. > :46:41.bombing citizens and hospitals in Aleppo and engaging in cyber

:46:42. > :46:46.attacks, which is a strange way of trying to go about getting respect.

:46:47. > :46:53.In the United States of America we were witness on Friday to the

:46:54. > :47:01.inauguration of a new president who to say the least appears to be quite

:47:02. > :47:10.sceptical about the international rules -based system. Institutions

:47:11. > :47:13.that we have established, the EU, Nato, the United Nations, created

:47:14. > :47:18.precisely to give the world greater security, and I have to say, Madame

:47:19. > :47:23.Deputy Speaker, I was astonished to hear Angela Merkel's decision to

:47:24. > :47:31.provide shelter to 1 million refugees described as, quote and

:47:32. > :47:38.catastrophic mistake taking all these illegals, end of quote, by the

:47:39. > :47:44.President-elect as though he was completely unaware of America, as a

:47:45. > :47:50.country, being built on providing a welcome to those seeking shelter,

:47:51. > :47:59.best expressed in these famous words. "Give Me your tired, your

:48:00. > :48:06.poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free", words forever

:48:07. > :48:14.associated with the statue of liberty. I certainly don't regard

:48:15. > :48:19.Nato as an institution outdated, of course there are things that can be

:48:20. > :48:31.reformed, nor do Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania who seen -- C Noto as well

:48:32. > :48:36.as being a member of the European Union as absolutely fundamental to

:48:37. > :48:39.their future security. We are leaving the institutions of the

:48:40. > :48:44.European Union, we are not leaving Europe. They are all in our shared

:48:45. > :48:48.interest. That is why it is absolutely essential that we find a

:48:49. > :48:54.way in the forthcoming negotiations to continue to work closely together

:48:55. > :48:58.on foreign policy, security, and defence with our neighbours,

:48:59. > :49:02.something which I know the government supports. There are some

:49:03. > :49:06.very practical questions. We will no longer be attending the foreign

:49:07. > :49:11.affairs Council. How exactly is that continued cooperation going to work?

:49:12. > :49:16.Will the government press for what I have called a common policy area, a

:49:17. > :49:22.new structure to bring together EU and non-EU member states to discuss

:49:23. > :49:26.shared concerns about foreign policy? On policing and security

:49:27. > :49:31.cover operation, we already have that special deal that allowed as to

:49:32. > :49:37.opt into certain special arrangements but we do need clarity.

:49:38. > :49:40.The point was made by my right honourable friend about what exactly

:49:41. > :49:46.is going to happen when we leave. A point also put very forcefully by

:49:47. > :49:51.the member for West Ham in her speech. The Secretary of State for

:49:52. > :49:55.exiting the European Union told the house on the 10th of October that

:49:56. > :50:00.one of the government's main aims during exit negotiations will be

:50:01. > :50:09.quote Micro to keep our justice and security arrangements at least as

:50:10. > :50:16.strong as they are". At least as strong as they are. Now, that is a

:50:17. > :50:22.very specific pledge to this house. The question is, how are we going to

:50:23. > :50:27.achieve this? Because replicating what we have at the moment, as we

:50:28. > :50:30.have heard in this debate, represents a very significant

:50:31. > :50:37.challenge. We've heard about the practical benefits of the Schengen

:50:38. > :50:42.information system. Knowing who is wanted, who is a suspected foreign

:50:43. > :50:45.fighter, who is missing, is really important. How will we continue to

:50:46. > :50:53.receive that information after we have left? We have learned about the

:50:54. > :50:59.decisions. Being able to quickly search fingerprints and DNA

:51:00. > :51:03.databases is very important in combating cross-border crime. We

:51:04. > :51:08.have heard about how being part of Europol gives us access to those

:51:09. > :51:12.databases and expertise and there are many other examples. And the

:51:13. > :51:15.challenge for the government is going to be to seek to replicate

:51:16. > :51:20.those Wan Siu-hung left. We have heard about the issue of data

:51:21. > :51:22.sharing. As I understand it, some of the instruments make no provision

:51:23. > :51:32.currently at all for sharing information with third countries. Or

:51:33. > :51:41.they expressively prohibit transfer of information to non-Schengen

:51:42. > :51:47.parties. They do not allow direct access to Europol's extensive

:51:48. > :51:53.information systems. As I understand it, it would be helpful if the

:51:54. > :51:57.Minister could tell others what conclusions the review reached about

:51:58. > :52:01.the options available to the government to secure continued

:52:02. > :52:06.participation which I think every single member who has spoken in the

:52:07. > :52:10.debate which is to achieve. Will he also tell us whether the

:52:11. > :52:16.government's negotiation objectives specifically include retaining

:52:17. > :52:22.access to this data and to this information, as part of the

:52:23. > :52:28.negotiations? Can he also confirmed to what extent the UK's data

:52:29. > :52:32.protection laws will need broadly to replicate EU laws if information

:52:33. > :52:36.sharing is to be able to continue to the same or similar extent, once we

:52:37. > :52:41.leave. A point made by the Honourable member for Edinburgh

:52:42. > :52:46.South West. How, and the point was made by the former Attorney General,

:52:47. > :52:50.the Right Honourable member for Beaconsfield, how will we negotiate

:52:51. > :52:54.these agreements without accepting some degree of oversight from some

:52:55. > :53:01.court, whether it is the European Court of Justice or some other. Can

:53:02. > :53:04.he confirm that in this area, as in others, the government will seek

:53:05. > :53:08.transitional arrangements to make sure there is no interruption to the

:53:09. > :53:15.flow of information? Madame Deputy Speaker, the process, in conclusion,

:53:16. > :53:20.on which our country is now about to embark will inevitably involve

:53:21. > :53:25.uncertainty until such time as matters are resolved by agreement.

:53:26. > :53:29.If the government is to honour its pledge to keep our justice and

:53:30. > :53:35.security arrangements at least as strong as they are, and that is a

:53:36. > :53:39.very high test, then the security and safety of our communities is one

:53:40. > :53:48.area in which we simply cannot afford their to be any certainty

:53:49. > :53:53.whatsoever. Or afford an outcome in which there is no deal at all. The

:53:54. > :53:58.Prime Minister said yesterday that no deal is better than a bad deal.

:53:59. > :54:03.In the case of security, no deal is and would be a bad deal. We simply

:54:04. > :54:13.cannot afford to allow that to happen. It's a pleasure to follow on

:54:14. > :54:17.from the right Honourable member for Leeds Central and I commend him for

:54:18. > :54:22.his work in the early start of the report of his committee which I read

:54:23. > :54:26.with interest on Saturday. It showed the committee hitting the ground

:54:27. > :54:32.running and hopefully made some impact in relation to yesterday's

:54:33. > :54:39.speech, as well. I must profess that I am not an expert in relation to

:54:40. > :54:44.security issues. On the NHS, I'm absolutely fine but this is a big

:54:45. > :54:47.issue that is of great importance to my constituency and is serving a

:54:48. > :54:53.constituency like bats there have been a number of instances where

:54:54. > :54:56.reports have been put out in the newspapers and caused concern for my

:54:57. > :55:01.constituents. I think it's important that I do speak in this debate

:55:02. > :55:06.today. I'd like to take this opportunity to focus on two

:55:07. > :55:11.particular areas. Of course, there are many areas which have been

:55:12. > :55:15.discussed in this debate already, whether that is Europol, CCR IAS,

:55:16. > :55:19.I'm going to pick up on a couple that relate to cross-border security

:55:20. > :55:24.and sharing of intelligence which have been covered by a number of

:55:25. > :55:28.Honourable friends across the house so far. As my honourable friend for

:55:29. > :55:32.Great Yarmouth earlier said, maintaining strong security

:55:33. > :55:37.cooperation that we currently have with the European Union will feature

:55:38. > :55:40.heavily in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations as outlined yesterday.

:55:41. > :55:45.They should be absolutely no doubt that many of the tools and

:55:46. > :55:49.institutions that currently underpin security and police cooperation are

:55:50. > :55:55.absolutely vital for the continued safety of our nation, ever more

:55:56. > :56:00.given the current security concerns. Yesterday, I welcomed the Prime

:56:01. > :56:04.Minister's commitment in her speech to continue to cooperate with our

:56:05. > :56:07.European partners in areas such as crime and terrorism. Particularly

:56:08. > :56:11.when she said with the threats becoming more serious, our response

:56:12. > :56:16.cannot be to cooperate with one another less but to work together

:56:17. > :56:20.more. You agree that there is a large opportunity here not just to

:56:21. > :56:23.look at maintaining that current cooperation but extending it as

:56:24. > :56:35.well. We shouldn't give up on those opportunities that this debate gives

:56:36. > :56:37.us. We will face the challenge of cross-border crime and deadly

:56:38. > :56:41.terrorist threats that do not respect borders. As the Prime

:56:42. > :56:47.Minister outlined yesterday, with the threats becoming more serious,

:56:48. > :56:52.our response really needs to be enhanced. On the matters of law

:56:53. > :56:57.enforcement and sharing intelligence materials, it has never been more

:56:58. > :57:02.important, as my right honourable friend said earlier on. I want to be

:57:03. > :57:09.free mention and before Honourable members turn around and say, why is

:57:10. > :57:12.he mentioning the European Convention on Human Rights and the

:57:13. > :57:15.protection it gives, the reason why I raise this is because of the fact

:57:16. > :57:20.that I still think personally that once we are having these debates, a

:57:21. > :57:25.lot of constituents out there and a lot of people in the country either

:57:26. > :57:29.confused the two issues and think one is interchangeable with the

:57:30. > :57:33.other or all sensitively are worried that because of the debates we are

:57:34. > :57:36.having in relation to the European Court of Justice and the exit from

:57:37. > :57:41.the European Union that this will at some point have some sort of impact.

:57:42. > :57:47.If Madame Deputy Speaker will indulge me on this, I think leaving

:57:48. > :57:51.the European Union will make it much easier to bring ourselves out of the

:57:52. > :57:55.European Convention on Human Rights. While this is a topic for another

:57:56. > :57:59.day, I still have no doubt that this is going to be debated for quite a

:58:00. > :58:03.serious amount of time in this place and the other place as well. I'm

:58:04. > :58:07.concerned that our potential withdrawal will limit the rights of

:58:08. > :58:13.those in the criminal justice system. I think those rights are

:58:14. > :58:16.absolutely crucial. Can the Minister assure me that the government will

:58:17. > :58:24.be putting the protection of human rights at the forefront of their

:58:25. > :58:29.agenda when dealing both inside and outside the European Union. There is

:58:30. > :58:31.consensus among law enforcement agencies about the tools and

:58:32. > :58:36.capabilities we must retain in order to keep people safe and one is the

:58:37. > :58:42.European Arrest Warrant which has been debated earlier on. Members

:58:43. > :58:45.will know that the EAW facilitates the exchange of individuals between

:58:46. > :58:50.EU member states to face prosecution for a crime of which they are

:58:51. > :58:57.accused and serve a prison sentence for a existing conviction. The UK

:58:58. > :59:02.has extradited over 7000 individuals convicted of criminal offences to

:59:03. > :59:07.other member states and 675 suspected, convicted or wanted

:59:08. > :59:11.individuals to Britain to face justice. That is no small number.

:59:12. > :59:17.Ultimately, we need to think about this number and how many different

:59:18. > :59:22.individuals in society are impacted by the number over the years. It has

:59:23. > :59:27.been used to get terror suspects out of the country and bring terrorists

:59:28. > :59:37.back here to face justice. One main example is in 2005 when Hussain

:59:38. > :59:41.Osman who try to blow up the underground on the 21st of the

:59:42. > :59:49.seventh was extradited within 56 days. Before the arrest warrant

:59:50. > :59:54.existed, it took ten long years to extradite another terrorist from

:59:55. > :59:57.Britain to France. If we do not ensure something is going to

:59:58. > :00:05.continue on, I don't want to see others harking back to take years to

:00:06. > :00:12.extradite citizens. On this issue of the European Arrest Warrant, that

:00:13. > :00:16.was debated extensively in previous parliaments, there are a number of

:00:17. > :00:20.instances where British citizens have been subjected to failures of

:00:21. > :00:25.Justice under that system. It is a point that he needs to take on

:00:26. > :00:34.board. I thank my rouble member for intervening.

:00:35. > :00:46.Riddles about enhancing the system we have -- it's also about. I think

:00:47. > :00:53.that debate should be had. This is a prime opportunity to do so. Mr

:00:54. > :00:56.Speaker, lastly, can I just turn to cross-border intelligence sharing,

:00:57. > :00:59.instrumental to the safety of our nation. In particular the mechanisms

:01:00. > :01:06.data gathering and analysis undertaken by Europol, the agency

:01:07. > :01:09.that supports law enforcement agencies for member states by

:01:10. > :01:12.providing a forum in which member states can cooperate and share

:01:13. > :01:20.information. Can I should have assurance that we will continue to

:01:21. > :01:23.have access to this after we leave the European Union, and I have no

:01:24. > :01:29.doubt every member will be saying that over the next few hours? Does

:01:30. > :01:32.he agree with me that UK intelligence agencies, including

:01:33. > :01:35.individuals working in my constituency and Cheltenham don't

:01:36. > :01:40.just protect British lives, they protect European lives as well. And

:01:41. > :01:43.that as part of any future arrangements, we want to ensure that

:01:44. > :01:48.they continue to do the vital work, both within our shores and beyond. I

:01:49. > :01:52.thank him for his intervention, and he's a great champion of the

:01:53. > :01:56.security services, particularly those in his constituency, and his

:01:57. > :02:03.constituents that work in places like GCHQ. Not just in the European

:02:04. > :02:05.Union, but also to the wider world with associate members, too.

:02:06. > :02:09.Actually, this is something that has to be at the very fora of what the

:02:10. > :02:13.government is doing. This isn't just about British domestic interest, but

:02:14. > :02:18.also international interest at the same time. I thank him for his

:02:19. > :02:24.contribution. There is no doubt that the UK's participation in criminal

:02:25. > :02:29.and policing capabilities have resulted in a safer United Kingdom.

:02:30. > :02:33.The UK has a list taken a leading European security matters, managing

:02:34. > :02:37.the relationship between the EU and the United States, taking the lead

:02:38. > :02:41.in producing EU policies on counter radicalisation and the EU action

:02:42. > :02:46.plan on terrorism was drafted during a UK presidency. Can I also press

:02:47. > :02:50.the on the importance of this continued cooperation on after we

:02:51. > :02:57.exit the European Union? I must tell right -- highlight that clarity is

:02:58. > :03:04.given as much as possible on this issue. The public put security and

:03:05. > :03:06.enforcement high on the agenda, so I'm pleased the government has

:03:07. > :03:11.allowed this debate to take place today. We should be giving them or

:03:12. > :03:14.conference at what ever the relationship that Britain has with

:03:15. > :03:15.the European Union in the future maintains the highest level of

:03:16. > :03:27.security. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is great

:03:28. > :03:32.pleasure to follow the honourable member. Otherwise my final

:03:33. > :03:36.contribution before I leave to take up the post as director is the

:03:37. > :03:41.Victoria and Albert Museum, the world's greatest museum of art and

:03:42. > :03:44.performance. It has been a profound privilege to represent

:03:45. > :03:50.Stoke-on-Trent in this chamber, and I'd like to put on record my thanks

:03:51. > :03:55.to the Speaker, clerks, door staff, and perhaps best of all the library

:03:56. > :04:00.staff, who now face a drop in demand. It seems particularly

:04:01. > :04:03.perverse to leave the House now, and let me apologise to the political

:04:04. > :04:09.parties and the people of Stoke-on-Trent foreign posting --

:04:10. > :04:16.for inflicting a by-election. It seems perverse to believing just

:04:17. > :04:21.now, not least in terms of security, law enforcement and justice. As

:04:22. > :04:24.power and sovereignty is returned to the UK Parliament, the question we

:04:25. > :04:29.are debating today and you will be into the future is whether we see a

:04:30. > :04:36.Britannia unchanged, forging a new era free trade, cultural exchange

:04:37. > :04:41.and innovation, or whether the world today as my honourable friend

:04:42. > :04:45.suggested is so interconnected in terms of economy, security and

:04:46. > :04:49.political power that we have in leaving the European Union expose

:04:50. > :04:54.ourselves to international headwinds that will batter rather than benefit

:04:55. > :04:58.us. At this stage, we have no answer to that. The Prime Minister's speech

:04:59. > :05:02.left no doubt about the strategic direction in which the government is

:05:03. > :05:08.heading. Let me say that I welcome the tone of it. The need to end

:05:09. > :05:12.division and heal some of the anger surrounding our decision to exit the

:05:13. > :05:22.European Union is of vital task of political leadership. For the

:05:23. > :05:29.saddest and most peak-time it -- most peak-time was hearing about the

:05:30. > :05:33.murder of Jo Cox, my friend. It remains a devastating loss for the

:05:34. > :05:37.Labour movement and humanitarian affairs. We should not forget that

:05:38. > :05:41.her killing took place amid some of the ugliest and most divisive

:05:42. > :05:44.rhetoric in the lead up to the referendum. And I pay tribute today

:05:45. > :05:51.to the enormous dignity and resilience of her widower, Brendan

:05:52. > :05:55.Cox and close family. Amidst the Brexit debate, I continue before I

:05:56. > :06:01.am perhaps seduced by Crown Office, to represent a constituency that

:06:02. > :06:06.voted 70-30 to leave the European Union was too weak in and week out,

:06:07. > :06:10.I campaigned with colleagues to remain in the year. I remember

:06:11. > :06:15.Sundays not meeting anyone who wished to stay inside the EU. But I,

:06:16. > :06:21.like many members in this house -- Sundays. I accept the result. This

:06:22. > :06:24.division of opinion between the official Labour Party position and

:06:25. > :06:28.many of our heartland voters has served only to highlight some of the

:06:29. > :06:33.deep-seated challenges which centre-left parties are facing. From

:06:34. > :06:37.Greece to the Netherlands, to Sweden, to France, the combination

:06:38. > :06:40.of austerity, globalisation and EU policy has hammered social

:06:41. > :06:46.democratic politics. The challenge which my friend Billy leader of the

:06:47. > :06:51.Labour Party faces is not unique to him -- my friend, their leader. But

:06:52. > :07:00.Brexit has done is exacerbated by virgins of priorities between what

:07:01. > :07:03.the Labour voters of Cambridge want, and those of Stoke-on-Trent for

:07:04. > :07:07.example. Keeping a metropolitan and post-industrial coalition together

:07:08. > :07:11.is no easy task. In Stoke-on-Trent, my voters wanted to leave the

:07:12. > :07:16.European Union for three reasons. For sovereignty and a return of

:07:17. > :07:20.national powers to this Parliament. A reaction against globalisation and

:07:21. > :07:25.the political economy which they thought had shut down the mines, the

:07:26. > :07:30.steel industry and eliminated 80% of jobs in the potteries. And

:07:31. > :07:34.immigration. This wasn't racism. This was about the effects of

:07:35. > :07:40.large-scale migration on public services and wage levels, in an

:07:41. > :07:43.already low wage city. I often put the case that the EU was a double

:07:44. > :07:48.walk against the records of localisation, vital for policing and

:07:49. > :07:52.national security, that 50% of our pottery exports went to the EU, that

:07:53. > :07:57.EU investment had assisted regeneration in North Staffordshire,

:07:58. > :07:59.and that our great universities of Staffordshire and Keele both

:08:00. > :08:06.benefited from EU funding. It made a difference. Now we need a Brexit

:08:07. > :08:11.that delivers for Stoke-on-Trent and other communities feeling left

:08:12. > :08:16.behind by globalisation and rapid socioeconomic change. The question

:08:17. > :08:23.is still out there. We'll judicial immigration control be in the

:08:24. > :08:26.detrimental to economic growth? Is that the site you want probably

:08:27. > :08:31.poorer but more equal? Sparta, rather than Rome. I continue to have

:08:32. > :08:35.great concerns about leaving the single market and its effects on

:08:36. > :08:39.British business and prosperity. As we leave European Union, there is

:08:40. > :08:42.also a moment for progressive reform. My right honourable friend

:08:43. > :08:49.the Wolverhampton South East member has made the case Marshall plan for

:08:50. > :08:54.parts of the Midlands and the to equip them for contemporary

:08:55. > :08:56.challenges. I think the House can think creatively about

:08:57. > :09:05.revolutionising our skills and training with a new focus on

:09:06. > :09:08.vocational education, and building new internationalism. The difference

:09:09. > :09:13.between a national popular politics, Post liberal vision of government

:09:14. > :09:18.action and which, or a vision of Britain as a low tax, more

:09:19. > :09:21.deregulated state in the Singapore Hong Kong model. It'll be

:09:22. > :09:25.interesting to see how these approaches play themselves out. I

:09:26. > :09:28.will watch Mr Speaker, these developments from my new post at the

:09:29. > :09:34.Victoria and Albert, a museum both European in its heritage, with

:09:35. > :09:41.Prince Albert instrumental in its foundation, as he felt Britain

:09:42. > :09:44.needed to follow the German model in design, technology and skills, but

:09:45. > :09:49.also proudly global, with a collection drawn from across the

:09:50. > :09:52.Empire and the wider world. It's currently exhibition exploring the

:09:53. > :09:57.life and legacy of John Lockwood Kipling, a sculptor and Potter from

:09:58. > :10:02.Stoke-on-Trent who went to Bombay but missed North Staffordshire so

:10:03. > :10:08.much that he named his son after a local beauty spot just north of

:10:09. > :10:13.Stoke. It speaks to mix of European and empirical influences. The V

:10:14. > :10:17.and other national median stands at the hub of our national creative

:10:18. > :10:22.sector, and if we are concerned with security, we need to reflect on the

:10:23. > :10:25.need for economic security. The UK's creative industries and are worth

:10:26. > :10:29.?85 billion a year to the UK economy. The creative industries are

:10:30. > :10:33.the fastest-growing sector of the UK economy, with the capacity to

:10:34. > :10:39.deliver further jobs and growth and a major component in soft power.

:10:40. > :10:43.Museums are sources of inspiration, innovation, creativity and synergy.

:10:44. > :10:47.The UK's museums are global leaders in their fields, and great drivers

:10:48. > :10:51.of British culture and identity right around the world. At the V,

:10:52. > :10:55.curators and introduced the brilliance of David Bowie's designs

:10:56. > :11:00.and Alexander McQueen's fashion right around the world. When it

:11:01. > :11:04.comes to Brexit, the V had other museums will continue to build their

:11:05. > :11:09.connections in China, India, the golf and elsewhere. But their

:11:10. > :11:14.success is also a European success -- the Gulf. The story of British

:11:15. > :11:17.art and design is also a story of European culture, and our place

:11:18. > :11:23.within it. More than that, so many who work in our control sector are

:11:24. > :11:25.EU citizens -- cultural sector. I welcome the recognition of the

:11:26. > :11:30.urgent need for a reciprocal arrangement with the EU on its

:11:31. > :11:34.nationals working in the UK, and those British citizens currently

:11:35. > :11:37.employed in the EU. Similarly, trade negotiations with the EU will need

:11:38. > :11:42.to recognise the importance of the digital sector, to the British

:11:43. > :11:46.economy. I think there is a broader Brexit issue for our leading

:11:47. > :11:51.cultural institutions. It seems to me that when there is this growing

:11:52. > :11:55.sense of disparity between the winners and losers of globalisation,

:11:56. > :11:59.museums and other cultural institutions need to help to lessen

:12:00. > :12:04.the division. In an age where art, design, the humanities and culture

:12:05. > :12:06.is so important for our competitiveness and quality-of-life,

:12:07. > :12:12.we cannot have London detaching itself from the rest of the UK. This

:12:13. > :12:16.is a chance to think more creatively about education provision, art and

:12:17. > :12:21.design and a real pressure in our schools. -- under real pressure. We

:12:22. > :12:27.need to build strong connections between rational and regional

:12:28. > :12:30.museums -- National. In short, Brexit demand stronger connection

:12:31. > :12:37.between South Kensington and Stoke-on-Trent. And I will try as

:12:38. > :12:41.director to do just that. Mr Speaker, the right Honourable member

:12:42. > :12:44.for Leeds Central's father famously said he was leaving Parliament to

:12:45. > :12:50.spend more time on politics. I'm not quite doing that, but everything

:12:51. > :12:55.that museums have a responsibility as places of learning, discourse and

:12:56. > :13:00.enquiry to interrogate in a nonpartisan way, the big challenges

:13:01. > :13:04.of the day. I hope to do just that, and I hope to see many of you there.

:13:05. > :13:09.Finally, let me place on record my thanks to my personal style. With in

:13:10. > :13:15.this palace, their work thousands of people writing, researching, probing

:13:16. > :13:19.and advising. For five long years, two people have helped me and my job

:13:20. > :13:22.enormously. Let me put on record my debt to the people of Stoke-on-Trent

:13:23. > :13:26.for sending me here, the greatest privilege of my life. I would like

:13:27. > :13:33.to thank the Chair for their indulgence in this speech this

:13:34. > :13:37.afternoon. Thank you. It is an enormous pleasure for me to follow

:13:38. > :13:42.the member for Stoke-on-Trent Central. He's my next door

:13:43. > :13:47.neighbour, pretty well. We talk regularly. We were even on a radio

:13:48. > :13:53.four programme, which he organised only a week ago on a is a bricks and

:13:54. > :13:58.all the matters he referred to. I regard him not only as an honourable

:13:59. > :14:02.member, but as a good friend. He referred just now to matters which

:14:03. > :14:07.really were rather reminiscent to what might have been a maiden

:14:08. > :14:13.speech. In a valedictory way. I think he say to him, he's performed

:14:14. > :14:16.great service to this house, and to his constituents. And I just simply

:14:17. > :14:18.want to put that on the record before getting into the more

:14:19. > :14:25.substantial questions before us today. Of course. I thank my

:14:26. > :14:30.honourable next-door neighbour. When he agreed with me that the

:14:31. > :14:35.soon-to-be departed member for Stoke-on-Trent Central has been a

:14:36. > :14:39.truly class act since 2010 in North Staffordshire and the potteries, not

:14:40. > :14:45.least his efforts to save the Wedgwood collection for the nation.

:14:46. > :14:49.And we are indebted to him for that. We've all taken an active part in

:14:50. > :14:52.trying to do what we can with regard to the museum, and it is marvellous

:14:53. > :15:00.not only that it should still be there, but that it is now insecure

:15:01. > :15:06.hands under the aegis of what is probably already under the director

:15:07. > :15:10.of the V himself. I don't know whether he's taken up his contract

:15:11. > :15:14.yet, but it's getting close to it! Anyway, thank you very much for

:15:15. > :15:19.everything that you've done in that context for our area and region. The

:15:20. > :15:25.honourable member, the right Honourable member, did refer to the

:15:26. > :15:26.question of whether or not under Brexit there would be a Britannia

:15:27. > :15:35.and changed. I can assure him is this will be a

:15:36. > :15:39.Britannia unchained and that is really to me the most important

:15:40. > :15:44.question of all for which I have devoted the best part of 30 years of

:15:45. > :15:48.my political life and I do believe very strongly that we will benefit

:15:49. > :15:52.enormously from this. It's been a long journey. It's been a very

:15:53. > :15:58.interesting historical journey as people will discover one day when

:15:59. > :16:06.they get the full measure of what has actually taken place. I do think

:16:07. > :16:12.it will benefit, not only my constituents, who represented 65% of

:16:13. > :16:20.the Leave vote in our area, but also the 70% in Stoke-on-Trent central

:16:21. > :16:25.itself. The other thing I would like to add is that the real question of

:16:26. > :16:32.the EU, which he referred to by reference to sovereignty as being

:16:33. > :16:36.one of of the main issues before his constituents, is also connected with

:16:37. > :16:41.the question of trust and the issue of trust is at the heart as I said

:16:42. > :16:45.yesterday after the Prime Minister's speech on a programme on Sky, is

:16:46. > :16:48.really at the heart of the reason why, not only for us and it is

:16:49. > :16:54.relevant to this particular debate because I am going to go on to the

:16:55. > :16:59.question of security, terrorism and crime. The question of trust is at

:17:00. > :17:05.the heart of the reason why, not only in this country, but across the

:17:06. > :17:11.whole of the European continent, which happens to be largely speaking

:17:12. > :17:14.within the European Union. This is not against Europe. This is against

:17:15. > :17:20.the European Union. This is what the vote is about. This is what the

:17:21. > :17:26.discontent is about. The lack of trust between the member states

:17:27. > :17:31.themselves, the lack of trust between the citizens and the

:17:32. > :17:36.institutions and the elites in their member states who have implemented

:17:37. > :17:42.these arrangements which simply have not worked, which have generated

:17:43. > :17:47.monumental degrees of unemployment, up to 60% in some countries,

:17:48. > :17:56.including countries such as Greece and Spain, etc. The problems that

:17:57. > :18:02.come from an overdominating Germany, which has had a detrimental effect

:18:03. > :18:06.on stability in terms of the progress and evolution of the

:18:07. > :18:12.European Union, which has destabilised and created the very

:18:13. > :18:16.insecurity, the very stability which people wanted to deal with in the

:18:17. > :18:24.aftermath of the Second World War in which my own father was killed

:18:25. > :18:29.fighting in 1944 and won the Military Cross of which I am very

:18:30. > :18:35.proud. I would simply say this, I voted Yes in 1975, I wanted to see a

:18:36. > :18:40.situation which could work, but unfortunately the manner in which

:18:41. > :18:45.this has developed has become dysfunctional. What I am so glad

:18:46. > :18:50.about and in fact in the debate yesterday on the statement, the

:18:51. > :18:57.discussion that took place I noticed a sense of Realism that was bearing

:18:58. > :19:01.in on so many members because we have to make this work. It is not

:19:02. > :19:07.anti-European to be pro-democracy and I know there are good and honest

:19:08. > :19:15.Remainers who are still worried about the outcome but I say to them,

:19:16. > :19:18.have confidence. Have trust. Have trust in the people as Lord

:19:19. > :19:23.Churchill said in the 19th century, but this is not a 19th century

:19:24. > :19:31.problem. It's a 21st century problem. It is a fact, it is not

:19:32. > :19:34.just a generalisation, this is not Euroscepticism in a negative sense.

:19:35. > :19:42.It's about trying to ensure that we have proper democracy and that when

:19:43. > :19:51.we get on to the issue of the repeal bill that we will regain the ability

:19:52. > :19:56.to achieve the reaffirmation of Westminster jurisdiction. And what

:19:57. > :20:03.does that actually mean? It means that we will be implementing in this

:20:04. > :20:08.chamber the decisions that are taken by the electors in general elections

:20:09. > :20:12.from which those very people fought and died, which is a crucial issue

:20:13. > :20:16.for the future of Europe, as well. It doesn't just apply to us, but we

:20:17. > :20:21.are the first to have the opportunity to do something about it

:20:22. > :20:27.because we had a referendum for which some of us fought for so long.

:20:28. > :20:32.The other day in the European Parliament we were discussing

:20:33. > :20:39.matters of security and terrorism and all the rest and the chairman of

:20:40. > :20:44.the constitutional affairs committee of the European Parliament, with

:20:45. > :20:51.whom I have fought por the best part of 20-odd years in various forums in

:20:52. > :20:55.the European Union, actually accused in front of about 300 people, the

:20:56. > :21:01.chairman of various parliamentary committees from all over the

:21:02. > :21:06.European Union, he accused the United Kingdom of cowardice in

:21:07. > :21:12.holding a referendum, to which I replied, it was an act of courage,

:21:13. > :21:17.it was not an act of cowardice because we have seized the

:21:18. > :21:22.opportunity in defence of the security and the necessity to have a

:21:23. > :21:27.proper democratic system in the United Kingdom and we are now going

:21:28. > :21:32.to be able to implement it. I want to say that with respect to this

:21:33. > :21:40.business of justice and home affairs and all that goes with it, of course

:21:41. > :21:44.the decisions are taken as my European scrutiny committee reported

:21:45. > :21:48.back in, I think it was April or May this year, last year, before the

:21:49. > :21:52.referendum itself, and we held an inquiry into the manner in which

:21:53. > :21:58.decisions were taken in the Council of Ministers. Now I am prepared to

:21:59. > :22:05.bet that there are people in this chamber who do not know that there

:22:06. > :22:09.are virtually no votes taken in the European Council of Ministers which

:22:10. > :22:14.through the European Communities Act comes straight down into this

:22:15. > :22:19.chamber and we are under an obligation under this 1972 Act to

:22:20. > :22:22.implement those decisions that are taken, quite often stitched up

:22:23. > :22:29.behind closed doors on matters of the kind that we are now discussing,

:22:30. > :22:32.which are of direct relevance to the whole question of security,

:22:33. > :22:35.terrorism and crime and if they don't know that that is the way in

:22:36. > :22:39.which this system actually functions, I strongly advise them,

:22:40. > :22:43.either to speak to me privately and I can provide them with further

:22:44. > :22:47.information, which I am not going to go into in this chamber this

:22:48. > :22:51.afternoon, but which are absolutely vital to the question of democracy

:22:52. > :22:54.because these decisions are not taken on the democratic basis in the

:22:55. > :23:00.way in which the people have imagined. And that is a reason in

:23:01. > :23:06.itself for our getting out of the European Union and I can only say I

:23:07. > :23:11.was absolutely delighted by what the Prime Minister said yesterday. As I

:23:12. > :23:18.said in the statement, it was principled, it was reasonable and it

:23:19. > :23:24.was statesmanlike. Now, on the question specifically of justice and

:23:25. > :23:27.home affairs, this, of course, was intended to be intergovernmental.

:23:28. > :23:32.This was never meant to be something which was going to be governed by

:23:33. > :23:41.majority voting and the rest. This was meant to be a separate pillar.

:23:42. > :23:46.But if I say this to the honourable gentleman and ladies opposite, they,

:23:47. > :23:50.under Tony Blair, collapsed the pillar so that it became part of the

:23:51. > :23:55.treaties subject to the court of justice, as well. That was never the

:23:56. > :24:03.original intention. So what we are doing in this debate is engaging in

:24:04. > :24:07.some element of deja-vu but also providing ourselves with the

:24:08. > :24:11.opportunity to be able to indicate the extent to which we move forward

:24:12. > :24:16.after Brexit into a different environment where the decisions on

:24:17. > :24:22.all these incredibly important matters are dealt with by this House

:24:23. > :24:29.on the basis of votes cast by the voters of the United Kingdom and

:24:30. > :24:33.nobody else. The repeal bill I drafted in May, last year, and I

:24:34. > :24:39.submitted it to various people and as a result of a process which I

:24:40. > :24:43.don't need to go into in detail it was accepted by the Government, in

:24:44. > :24:46.principle and I have no doubt that the exact wording will be slightly

:24:47. > :24:50.changed, somewhat changed, but that doesn't matter. I set out five

:24:51. > :24:55.principles and I am not going to go into those now, other than to say

:24:56. > :24:58.that it meant that we would withdrew from the European Union and that we

:24:59. > :25:03.would transpose all the legislation that was currently within the

:25:04. > :25:05.framework of the EU jurisdiction into our own Westminster

:25:06. > :25:10.jurisdiction specifically and thereafter we would deal with it as

:25:11. > :25:15.we go forward and we just had - the reason I apologise for not being

:25:16. > :25:22.here a bit earlier, I was in for the opening debates, is because I was

:25:23. > :25:30.cross-examining with my colleague, the member for Somerset and Froome

:25:31. > :25:35.and others, David Lidington and we had important questions to put to

:25:36. > :25:43.him and we got some very interesting answers. But this repeal bill is

:25:44. > :25:49.actually going to require very, very careful attention and we are going

:25:50. > :25:51.to be able as a result of that to re-introduce into this House a

:25:52. > :25:57.proper democratic system. There will be things we will accept as a matter

:25:58. > :26:03.of policy and we heard some of those yesterday in what the Prime Minister

:26:04. > :26:07.said in her brilliant speech. The fact is that we have got to absorb

:26:08. > :26:13.some of the issues but what we can not do is to absorb the court of

:26:14. > :26:19.justice and this particular subject matter and this particular debate

:26:20. > :26:24.raises the Court of Justice probably as much as any other subject matter

:26:25. > :26:28.within the framework of the European Union as a whole.

:26:29. > :26:34.Now the Prime Minister's speech yesterday made clear that the UK

:26:35. > :26:38.will continue to co-operate with its European partners in important areas

:26:39. > :26:43.such as crime and terrorism once we leave the EU. Faced with common

:26:44. > :26:49.security threats she indicated, and I quote, our response cannot be to

:26:50. > :26:53.co-operate with one another less, but to work together more. Subject,

:26:54. > :26:58.of course, to the question of the Court of Justice. And to ensure that

:26:59. > :27:04.the UK's future relationship with the EU includes, and I quote,

:27:05. > :27:07.practical arrangements on matters of law enforcement and the sharing of

:27:08. > :27:12.intelligence material with our EU allies. She went on to make clear

:27:13. > :27:18.that the Government, and I quote again, will take back control of our

:27:19. > :27:22.laws and bring an end to the jurisdiction of the European Court

:27:23. > :27:28.of justice. As chairman of the European scrutiny committee, I and

:27:29. > :27:31.my colleagues such as the member for Somerset and Froome, from which my

:27:32. > :27:37.wife comes, I should have remembered that, I continue to see a raft of EU

:27:38. > :27:40.initiatives in this sensitive area of law enforcement and security

:27:41. > :27:46.co-operation. The Government tells us that while the UK remains a

:27:47. > :27:51.member of the EU, all rights and obligations of EU membership remain

:27:52. > :27:55.in force and tla is true and the Government will and I quote,

:27:56. > :28:07.continue to negotiate, implement and apply EU legislation. Although I do

:28:08. > :28:14.say quite explicitly and I put this to Mr Lidington this afternoon as

:28:15. > :28:19.the leader of the House, that it is absolutely essential that in the

:28:20. > :28:36.period of time while we are engaged in these negotiations that we have

:28:37. > :28:44.proper explaintory memoranda. We have to - where there is in a

:28:45. > :28:49.position to vote against them to do so, and where there is a question of

:28:50. > :28:55.qualifying majority vote, we require a vote and not this stitching-up

:28:56. > :29:00.behind closed doors and at the same time we give reasons as my committee

:29:01. > :29:05.recommended to increase the transparency and accountability

:29:06. > :29:11.because some of these matters are so important to the skrurt and to the

:29:12. > :29:16.question of terrorism and all that goes with it that we really, if we

:29:17. > :29:19.don't believe that what they're proposing is in our national

:29:20. > :29:23.interest we must take a stand and the Government, in my opinion, has

:29:24. > :29:28.an absolute requirement to make sure that is there on the face of the

:29:29. > :29:31.record so that if we don't like something that is being proposed,

:29:32. > :29:37.although the generalisation which is that we want to try to achieve a

:29:38. > :29:43.degree of co-operation is important, that we do not allow things to go

:29:44. > :29:48.through by consensus in unsmoked filled rooms which are not in the

:29:49. > :29:52.UK's interest and which we would never contemplate accepting in a

:29:53. > :29:56.post-Brexit situation and if we had our wits about us would never have

:29:57. > :30:01.accepted in the first place. So, there is that issue to be

:30:02. > :30:04.considered which is a matter of European scrutiny process and my

:30:05. > :30:13.committee is looking into that very closely.

:30:14. > :30:17.The further point is that as the House will recall the previous

:30:18. > :30:22.coalition Government decided that it would be in the UK's national

:30:23. > :30:27.interest to rejoin 35 EU police and criminal justice measures which were

:30:28. > :30:34.adopted before the Lisbon Treaty took effect and was subject to the

:30:35. > :30:39.UK's 2014 block opt-out decision. These includure poll, euro justice,

:30:40. > :30:45.the European arrest warrant, joint investigation teams and important

:30:46. > :30:49.data-sharing instruments, notably the Sche in, gen information system,

:30:50. > :30:53.the European criminal records information system and the so-called

:30:54. > :30:57.Swedish initiative which provides a simplified mechanism for the

:30:58. > :31:04.exchange of law enforcement information and intelligence.

:31:05. > :31:13.The Prime Minister, then Home Secretary has rejoined the measures

:31:14. > :31:17.which provided the exchanging of DNA profiles, fingerprinting and vehicle

:31:18. > :31:21.registration data. United Kingdom also participates in the European

:31:22. > :31:27.investigation order which will take effect in May this year and many

:31:28. > :31:31.other criminal justice measures. I have to say, with regards to what is

:31:32. > :31:35.going on in relation to the current new EU justice and home affairs

:31:36. > :31:45.proposals, there appears to be inadequate recognition in the

:31:46. > :31:50.context in which the UK will continue to negotiate, implement and

:31:51. > :31:55.imply the legislation has changed profoundly because of Brexit. To

:31:56. > :31:58.quote the Prime Minister, the UK is leaving the European Union but the

:31:59. > :32:03.Government cannot continue with business as usual and I have to say

:32:04. > :32:10.that I do trust that said Tim Barrow will carry on as the new UK

:32:11. > :32:15.representative in a way that be entirely consistent with what is

:32:16. > :32:20.required in relation to this business to which I have already

:32:21. > :32:25.referred. We cannot continue with business as usual in the handling of

:32:26. > :32:32.sensitive EU Justice and home affairs proposals with the European

:32:33. > :32:37.Parliament. Given that the UK is under no obligation to participate

:32:38. > :32:42.in most new EU Justice and home proposals, the Government must

:32:43. > :32:45.explain in each case and put to The Record how a decision to opt in

:32:46. > :32:51.would be in the national interest and would be considered with taking

:32:52. > :32:56.back our laws. Control of our laws as the Prime Minister said an ending

:32:57. > :32:59.the jurisdiction of the European Court. Since last June and the

:33:00. > :33:03.referendum, the European scrutiny committee has pressed the Government

:33:04. > :33:16.to clarify how these measures will be affected by the UK's decision to

:33:17. > :33:18.leave. Under the repeal they will otherwise have to have significant

:33:19. > :33:22.adjustments as to how that is handled. What sort of relationship

:33:23. > :33:27.does the Government intend to establish with the Euro poll or

:33:28. > :33:33.Eurojust. Will it seek an agreement to enable the UK to apply a new

:33:34. > :33:37.arrangement regarding the European arrest warrant. We can't have it

:33:38. > :33:45.both ways, you can't be out of the jurisdiction of the EU court and

:33:46. > :33:49.have the laws interpreted by the judges in Luxembourg, it won't

:33:50. > :33:53.happen, it can't happen so that has to be taken on board. What

:33:54. > :33:58.assessments as the Government made on the operational value on the E U