24/01/2017

:00:16. > :00:36.Order! Order! The Ayes to the right, 127. The Noes to the left, 206.

:00:37. > :00:46.The Ayes to the right. 127. The Noes to the left, 206. The Noes half

:00:47. > :01:24.butt, the Noes habit. Unlock. We now come to the Wales Bill, money

:01:25. > :01:27.resolution. It is to move formally. The question is, the money

:01:28. > :01:33.resolution as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say

:01:34. > :01:44."aye". To the contrary, "no". . The Ayes habit. We now come to the Wales

:01:45. > :01:47.Bill, programme number three motion. The question is, as on the order

:01:48. > :01:56.paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:01:57. > :02:04."no". The Ayes habit. The Ayes have it. The clerk will now proceed to

:02:05. > :02:09.lead the orders of the day. The consideration of the Lords

:02:10. > :02:14.amendments. The National Assembly of Wales pass the legislation consent

:02:15. > :02:19.motion on the 17th of January, copies are available online and in

:02:20. > :02:23.the vote office. I must draw the attention that financial privilege

:02:24. > :02:29.is engaged by amendment nine. If it is agreed to, the customary entry

:02:30. > :02:41.waving Commons privilege to be entered into the Journal. We will

:02:42. > :02:46.begin with amendment nine. We will consider Lords amendment 40 four. I

:02:47. > :02:51.call the Minister to move to agree a Lords amendment nine. Alun Cairns.

:02:52. > :02:56.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg this House moves to agree with a

:02:57. > :03:02.medal name as you stated. I am pleased to open this debate on the

:03:03. > :03:05.amendments to the Wales Bill in the Other Place. Given the number of

:03:06. > :03:13.members who wish to speak in a short time in the debate, I will aim to

:03:14. > :03:18.keep my comment Spieth. -- believe. I wish to place my gratitude to the

:03:19. > :03:22.peers who contributed to the scrutiny during the House of Lords

:03:23. > :03:28.to the Bill. It is dangerous to name them all for fear of forgetting some

:03:29. > :03:31.of them. There were a number who regularly attended briefing sessions

:03:32. > :03:35.and give feedback during the process who helped get this important piece

:03:36. > :03:40.of legislation through the Other Place without any Government

:03:41. > :03:44.defeats. I want to thank in particular the Lord from Aberystwyth

:03:45. > :03:51.for stealing the Bill through the upper House, sponsored by the

:03:52. > :03:55.equipped for the Bill. I want to take this opportunity to place on

:03:56. > :03:59.record my thanks to a number of honourable and right honourable

:04:00. > :04:06.members of this House. The Honourable Member for Cheshire and

:04:07. > :04:11.Amersham who started the process of when she established a silk

:04:12. > :04:17.commission in 2011. The member for Crewe West who guided the Wales act

:04:18. > :04:21.2014 which implemented the silks commission fiscal recommendation

:04:22. > :04:25.through Parliament. I wish to pay tribute to my right honourable

:04:26. > :04:34.friend, the Member for Pembrokeshire. As a dash as the

:04:35. > :04:37.Secretary of State, the two part in the cross-party St David's Day

:04:38. > :04:41.process that put in place the framework of the Bill. This was a

:04:42. > :04:46.bold move. It sought to bring all parties together to come up with an

:04:47. > :04:49.of constitutional nature that would take both houses together that would

:04:50. > :04:56.understand the politics of both sides of this House and the Other

:04:57. > :05:01.Place. He believed in the importance of this Bill and subjected himself

:05:02. > :05:12.to immense scrutiny of that contacts. A great rebuke to him. --

:05:13. > :05:16.I pay tribute to him. I pay tribute to members on the other side who

:05:17. > :05:20.paid an important part in the scrutiny, the Shadow Welsh

:05:21. > :05:35.secondary, the honorary member -- Honourable Member for... Madam

:05:36. > :05:41.Deputy Speaker, coming to the substance of this group, I wanted

:05:42. > :05:45.amendments nine and 44 to be debated separately this afternoon to give

:05:46. > :05:47.members and this House the opportunity to consider the fiscal

:05:48. > :05:52.framework agreed between the UK Government and the Welsh Government.

:05:53. > :05:57.These amendments are directly linked to that agreement. The agreement

:05:58. > :06:03.between the British and Bell's governments as historic and his the

:06:04. > :06:10.four wheels and to the rest of the generated kingdom. -- Wales. They

:06:11. > :06:14.will be a referendum before Welsh rates of income tax are implemented

:06:15. > :06:19.using scrutiny of the Bill last summer. The fiscal framework paves

:06:20. > :06:25.way for devolution of these historic income tax powers April 20 19. The

:06:26. > :06:29.block grant adjustment mechanisms that will take account of the

:06:30. > :06:34.devolution of stamp duty and land tax, are also part of this

:06:35. > :06:38.agreement. Ensuring that the replacements for these taxes in

:06:39. > :06:44.Wales which the Welsh Government has legislated for come on stream in

:06:45. > :06:49.April 20 18. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way.

:06:50. > :06:54.Like -- whilst he's talking about the fiscal frame, I welcome the

:06:55. > :07:01.lifting on the cap for boring for capital expenditure for 1 billion.

:07:02. > :07:06.It is not quite two billion. -- for boring. Does it give the opportunity

:07:07. > :07:10.for continued investment in the infrastructure in the digital and

:07:11. > :07:16.physical sense and also contribute to increased productivity as well. I

:07:17. > :07:22.am grateful for the scrutiny at PV stages and also the comments at

:07:23. > :07:27.integration he has made. -- previous stages. I hope he will recognise

:07:28. > :07:31.this is a mature discussion between two institutions and he is right in

:07:32. > :07:35.this paves the way for the Welsh Government to use its new borrowing

:07:36. > :07:39.powers to legislate and finance things that really matter to the

:07:40. > :07:42.Welsh people. The agreement ensures that when tax powers are devolved,

:07:43. > :07:48.the Welsh Government will have a fair level of funding for the long

:07:49. > :07:52.term, taking into account Welsh tax capacity and treating population

:07:53. > :07:58.change consistently across tax and spending. In doing this, we are

:07:59. > :08:01.delivering on the independent ambition of the long-term, fair

:08:02. > :08:10.funding settlement and agreement for Wales. The professor is clear that

:08:11. > :08:14.this is a fair settlement. There is now no case to say that Wales is

:08:15. > :08:19.underfunded. The Government previously stated that Wales

:08:20. > :08:27.receives a fair settlement. This cements that in place and this

:08:28. > :08:33.enhances the settlement. The fiscal trademark is already out of date

:08:34. > :08:37.because it was before Brexit and we now know that Wales is going to

:08:38. > :08:43.suffer severely if we come out of the single market. Isn't it true

:08:44. > :08:49.that this Bill is just another stepping stone on the way towards

:08:50. > :08:52.forming a new Bill when we get the Thames of Brexit declared? The

:08:53. > :08:58.Honourable Member is well aware that we have a positive dialogue with the

:08:59. > :09:02.Welsh Government in terms of discussing the nature and framework

:09:03. > :09:07.of the process and the ultimate outcomes of exiting the European

:09:08. > :09:12.Union. I was happy to receive a paper from the Welsh Government

:09:13. > :09:18.yesterday with -- about the proposals. I will give it close

:09:19. > :09:24.consideration. It will be subject to a future joint ministerial Committee

:09:25. > :09:27.for the European negotiations. The Secretary of State would disagree

:09:28. > :09:33.his honourable friend who said yesterday in an interview that Wales

:09:34. > :09:38.should get in line with the Brexit process and somehow kowtow to the

:09:39. > :09:42.Prime Minister's agenda. I do not hear my honourable friend's

:09:43. > :09:46.comments. Should there be any attempt to seek to frustrate the

:09:47. > :09:50.process of exiting the European Union by the Welsh Government, that

:09:51. > :09:55.is not something that the Welsh population would expect or want to

:09:56. > :09:59.see. Wales did Vote Leave the European union and it is only right

:10:00. > :10:03.and proper we act on that instruction and direction that came

:10:04. > :10:06.from the public in Wales. I would hope that the Welsh Government would

:10:07. > :10:15.continue to engage positively in terms of the way that they have. I

:10:16. > :10:20.am very grateful for giving way. Does he not feel that given the

:10:21. > :10:23.respect that he says that is between the institution of the National

:10:24. > :10:27.Assembly and the Government in Westminster, he should be

:10:28. > :10:31.disappointed that the supreme court has not ruled today that there

:10:32. > :10:38.should be a formal consultation with wheels via the National Assembly. We

:10:39. > :10:42.maintain that the views of the Welsh Government are important but the

:10:43. > :10:47.views of other stakeholders in Wales are also relevant to the discussion.

:10:48. > :10:51.The wealth discussion will rightly form is few and the UK Government

:10:52. > :10:57.will come to a conclusion that is all part of the Kingdom, including

:10:58. > :11:01.all stakeholders. The legal action at the Welsh Government too, it was

:11:02. > :11:05.a matter for them, we have had the judgment and need to respect it and

:11:06. > :11:12.act upon it. If I can return to the fiscal framework and the funding

:11:13. > :11:21.settlement that comes. I have mentioned professional hops on a

:11:22. > :11:27.moment ago. -- Professor Hoxton. Also to the Chief Secretary of the

:11:28. > :11:33.Treasury for his part in the negotiations. And also for the way

:11:34. > :11:37.in which the Welsh Government and the finance and local Government

:11:38. > :11:42.minister in the National Assembly, and the Welsh Government, in terms

:11:43. > :11:46.of how he went about the negotiations with my right

:11:47. > :11:49.honourable friend as two mature institutions discussion serious

:11:50. > :11:54.matters that will have long-term positive consequences for Wales.

:11:55. > :11:58.Building on the existing funding floor. The Welsh Government will

:11:59. > :12:03.continue to have a fair level of funding for the long-term, taking

:12:04. > :12:06.into account Welsh tax capacity and treating population change

:12:07. > :12:13.consistently. For the first time we have agreed to add a needs -based

:12:14. > :12:16.factor of 115% into the Barnett Formula as was recommended.

:12:17. > :12:20.Embedding the funding will be announced in December 2015 into the

:12:21. > :12:25.mechanisms that decide how Wales is funded. The significance of this

:12:26. > :12:30.should not be understated. This is something that the Labour Party

:12:31. > :12:33.called forth from Cardiff Bay for many years whilst they were in power

:12:34. > :12:36.in this place. It took a Conservative Government to introduce

:12:37. > :12:40.that needs -based factor and deliver on the needs that Wales faced. I

:12:41. > :12:44.hope the honourable lady opposite will recognise a significant step of

:12:45. > :12:45.this needs -based factor that has been brought into the Barnett

:12:46. > :13:02.Formula. Does he not share my concerns that

:13:03. > :13:05.the needs-based factor will be ten years old by the time it comes in

:13:06. > :13:09.and has actually called for a review by the time it starts? I'm grateful

:13:10. > :13:12.to the honourable lady for intervention and the scrutiny and

:13:13. > :13:17.interest she has shown through this bill but I would hope she'd

:13:18. > :13:21.recognise the significance of the fiscal framework. The needs-based

:13:22. > :13:31.factor is 115%. The level at the moment is well above that 115%. It

:13:32. > :13:34.would fall, over time to 15% recognising the first settlement

:13:35. > :13:40.Wales gets because of its needs, but a significant factor in that

:13:41. > :13:43.needs-based factor is that that factor has been introduced into the

:13:44. > :13:47.settlement of Wales for the first time, something that she and her

:13:48. > :13:52.party have been calling for for some time, but it took the Conservative

:13:53. > :13:56.Party to deliver it. I'm grateful to my Right Honourable Friend, who has

:13:57. > :13:58.done a fantastic job steering this through the Commons stages.

:13:59. > :14:04.Interesting point about the figures being out of date. The discussion I

:14:05. > :14:07.had with Professor Horton to talk about Fair funding for Wales, he was

:14:08. > :14:10.clear with me that there was no reason to think that, just because

:14:11. > :14:14.of the passage of time the figures he had in mind are somehow

:14:15. > :14:20.incorrect. The level that has been set by the Treasury is correct for

:14:21. > :14:23.the needs of Wales at this time. My Right Honourable Friend has been a

:14:24. > :14:26.key factor in ensuring that we get to the position of the needs-based

:14:27. > :14:32.factor by framing in a way that we can come out with a successful

:14:33. > :14:35.conclusion. And, ultimately, the Welsh government would

:14:36. > :14:39.understandably have rejected the Wales Bill unless it had an

:14:40. > :14:43.appropriate fair funding settlement. I will give way at the moment. I

:14:44. > :14:45.hope that members opposite will absolutely recognise the

:14:46. > :14:49.significance of this, because it really does matter to the long-term

:14:50. > :14:56.funding public in Wales. I will give way. The Secretary of State is being

:14:57. > :14:59.very generous. Does he accept that as the First Minister set out

:15:00. > :15:04.yesterday that there was a difference between the Barnett

:15:05. > :15:08.formula and the sort of arrangements we have under the CAP? As things are

:15:09. > :15:16.moving rapidly, that Wales will not be left 1p worse off as a result of

:15:17. > :15:19.leaving the European Union? The honourable member is tempting me to

:15:20. > :15:23.go down a route for which no decisions have been taken and we are

:15:24. > :15:28.keen to engage and discuss, we are keen to engage with the Welsh

:15:29. > :15:32.government and with other devolved administrations on future funding

:15:33. > :15:37.arrangements. I hope the honourable member will recognise the fair way

:15:38. > :15:40.in which we have approached the Barnett settlement and the fiscal

:15:41. > :15:44.framework, and that will give him confidence in terms of how we look

:15:45. > :15:48.to get to a fresh settlement for Wales and for all parts of the

:15:49. > :15:52.United Kingdom, as we exit the European Union. I would like to make

:15:53. > :15:58.progress if I can but I will happily give way a little bit later on if

:15:59. > :16:01.time permits. We had agreed a fair way for the block grant to be

:16:02. > :16:04.adjusted to take account of tax devolution and the devolution of a

:16:05. > :16:08.portion of income tax and the traditional multiplier, the 105%

:16:09. > :16:10.within the Barnett formula that would give the Welsh government

:16:11. > :16:17.additional money over and above current levels. Whenever we increase

:16:18. > :16:23.spending in a devolved area. The 105% demonstrates even longer term

:16:24. > :16:27.transitions to getting down to four of 115%. And we're doubling the

:16:28. > :16:32.Welsh government's capital borrowing limit so that it is able to borrow

:16:33. > :16:37.up to ?1 billion, as the honourable member pointed out a moment ago.

:16:38. > :16:42.This will allow the Welsh government to invest in infrastructure across

:16:43. > :16:46.Wales. Amendment mine pits the new cap of borrowing limit in place so

:16:47. > :16:51.that it will be -- Amendment nine, so that it will be available as soon

:16:52. > :16:57.as revenues raised from the taxes that we are devolving. We will put

:16:58. > :17:03.in a new borrowing limit into place well in advance of the devolution of

:17:04. > :17:06.tax powers. This, as the honourable member rightly highlighted, will

:17:07. > :17:10.allow the Welsh government to get on with things that matter and to

:17:11. > :17:14.legislate and use the new financial capacity that will be granted

:17:15. > :17:19.through this bill. Taken together, with the Wales Bill, this agreement

:17:20. > :17:22.paves the way to making the Welsh Assembly a more powerful,

:17:23. > :17:26.accountable and mature institution with greater powers and

:17:27. > :17:29.responsibility to grow and support the Welsh economy. Madam that the

:17:30. > :17:33.Speaker, the fiscal framework agreement resolves once and for all

:17:34. > :17:37.the perceived issues of underfunding that have overshadowed political

:17:38. > :17:40.debate in Wales for so long. It provides the Welsh government with a

:17:41. > :17:44.Golbourne new borrowing limit to deliver much-needed infrastructure

:17:45. > :17:47.investment and ensures that the devolved government in Wales can

:17:48. > :17:50.become truly accountable to the electorate by raising around one

:17:51. > :17:55.quarter of the money that it spends. Gone are the days when poor levels

:17:56. > :18:02.of public service in Wales could be blamed on perceived underfunding.

:18:03. > :18:07.For too long, funding was used as an excuse for poor outcomes, not any

:18:08. > :18:10.longer, Madam Peaty Speaker. If they want big government, the Welsh

:18:11. > :18:14.government could raise taxes to pay for it or if they want to reduce

:18:15. > :18:17.income tax levels they could look to drive out inefficiencies and allow

:18:18. > :18:24.Wales to be seen in a new, entrepreneurial white. -- light. I

:18:25. > :18:29.urge the House to accept these lords' amendments. The question is

:18:30. > :18:38.that this House agrees with the Lords in their Amendment nine. Thank

:18:39. > :18:42.you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And the spirit in which this bill has so far

:18:43. > :18:46.developed we will see something of a rarity in my life in that I will

:18:47. > :18:49.come on occasion, I agree with the government and agree with some of

:18:50. > :18:53.the measures that they have taken but before the Secretary of State

:18:54. > :18:56.gets too excited about that it must be put on record that this bill has

:18:57. > :19:00.had a chequered history. It started out very badly, so badly, in fact,

:19:01. > :19:05.the government have to take it away and start over again. The second

:19:06. > :19:08.attempt was better. We reach a point today where it is still far from

:19:09. > :19:10.ideal but there has been considerable movement by the

:19:11. > :19:14.government as a result of pressure from these benches and from the

:19:15. > :19:17.Other Place. I would like to place on record my thanks to my

:19:18. > :19:23.predecessors, the members for Llanelli and Newport West and their

:19:24. > :19:28.front bench teams for the work they have done during the passage of this

:19:29. > :19:32.Bill. Particularly with my colleague Baroness Morgan and her team on the

:19:33. > :19:35.Other Place with their stunning efforts to secure numerous

:19:36. > :19:39.improvements to this bill through debates and discussions with the

:19:40. > :19:43.government, utilising a constructive approach to concessions. Therefore,

:19:44. > :19:46.we do support this bill in its current, improved form and we will

:19:47. > :19:49.not attempt to frustrate its passage. I am not going to detain

:19:50. > :19:53.the House for any longer than need be on matters where there are no

:19:54. > :19:57.disagreement, but there are amendments tabled by the opposition

:19:58. > :20:00.at the tail end of the group of amendments that I do wish to make

:20:01. > :20:04.substantial points on and may wish to test the will of the House on,

:20:05. > :20:08.but we are hopeful that we can make good progress and get it those

:20:09. > :20:13.amendments. Given me importance of the consequences of amendments nine

:20:14. > :20:17.and 44, should put something on the record about them. These amendments

:20:18. > :20:23.will raise the Welsh government's capital borrowing ceiling to ?1

:20:24. > :20:29.billion and from 2019 the annual capital borrowing limit will rise to

:20:30. > :20:33.15% of the overall figure, 150 million. This, as Secretary of State

:20:34. > :20:36.has pointed out, stems from the fiscal framework agreed by the

:20:37. > :20:40.government in Westminster and the Welsh government. This is welcome

:20:41. > :20:45.news and I congratulate the Welsh government, particularly the Cabinet

:20:46. > :20:50.Secretary, as has the Secretary of State, Mark Draper, the Cabinet and

:20:51. > :20:54.Local Government Secretary for sealing this important deal with the

:20:55. > :20:58.UK Government. I pay tribute to the government for moving on this issue.

:20:59. > :21:02.The increase in borrowing ability is so important because the austerity

:21:03. > :21:05.that successive Conservative chancellors have imposed on Wales

:21:06. > :21:08.has had severe consequences in terms of the ability of the Welsh

:21:09. > :21:12.government to invest in infrastructure, in particular. And

:21:13. > :21:17.that has been pointed out the loss of European funding that Wales will

:21:18. > :21:20.experience once we lose -- leave the EU, the ability to invest in

:21:21. > :21:25.infrastructure becomes even more critical. Therefore, moves to

:21:26. > :21:27.enhance the Welsh government's ability to invest and develop

:21:28. > :21:31.infrastructure for the future are of course welcome and this is all about

:21:32. > :21:34.investing in Wales, boosting the economy and it is a measure that

:21:35. > :21:39.will go a significant way to doing that. Since a wider structure

:21:40. > :21:41.investment led by the Welsh government will help towards

:21:42. > :21:51.improving productivity rates in Wales and will help increase the GVA

:21:52. > :21:56.of Wales. But the government plans do not go far enough. In the Other

:21:57. > :22:01.Place, my front bench colleague Baroness Morgan tabled an amendment

:22:02. > :22:04.to raise the borrowing cap to ?2 billion based on the Holton

:22:05. > :22:07.recommendations. We accept ?1 billion as a step forward but you

:22:08. > :22:10.probably meet the demands of the Welsh economy it is clearly not

:22:11. > :22:14.enough. Before the minister responsible is point, I caution that

:22:15. > :22:20.the government should not view the cap as a target. The point is to

:22:21. > :22:23.show the flexibility and dynamism from the higher limit rather than

:22:24. > :22:27.just looking at how much is borrowed. Many successful businesses

:22:28. > :22:31.do not utilise 100% of their borrowing facility but leveraged

:22:32. > :22:34.borrowing to a sensible percentage of the facility based on the

:22:35. > :22:39.economic context in which they are operating. We hire ?2 billion limit

:22:40. > :22:43.would not necessarily have been utilised but would allow greater

:22:44. > :22:46.flexibility and freedom for the Welsh government to invest in a

:22:47. > :22:50.greater number and greater scale of critical schemes and infrastructure

:22:51. > :22:54.projects. I make these points to the Minister, just put them on record,

:22:55. > :22:58.and to push his conversations with the Treasury and head of the

:22:59. > :23:03.forthcoming budget, but as I have said, we do welcome them as a step

:23:04. > :23:14.forward that Lords Amendments nine and 44 provide, and we will not be

:23:15. > :23:18.voting against them. Paul Flynn. Thank you very much. It is a matter

:23:19. > :23:23.of some pleasure to see this bill going through. It started off, as My

:23:24. > :23:29.Honourable Friend the member for Cardiff Central said, as a dreadful

:23:30. > :23:34.bill, a very ugly Bill, not with the smack of firm government, this is

:23:35. > :23:38.the timid cringe away week, uncertain government who do not know

:23:39. > :23:44.what direction they were going in. But the result of it is generally

:23:45. > :23:48.beneficial and it is a step forward, a statutory step forward, not one

:23:49. > :23:51.that we can feel greatly proud of, and we know that we have to come

:23:52. > :23:55.back to this because the world has changed post-Brexit. Whilst

:23:56. > :24:01.accepting that there has been improvement with this ?1 billion in

:24:02. > :24:07.this amendment that we talked about, it should have been ?2 billion, and

:24:08. > :24:11.there is a very good record in a Welsh Assembly, in their investments

:24:12. > :24:18.in infrastructure and other projects. But, we do need investment

:24:19. > :24:23.in the future. The great success of purchasing Cardiff Airport, were

:24:24. > :24:27.never greatly criticised... Can I thank the honourable member for

:24:28. > :24:31.giving way? Much has been made of this ?1 billion cap. As the

:24:32. > :24:34.honourable member will know the M4 relief road has been talked about

:24:35. > :24:37.and access to borrowing has been available to the Welsh government to

:24:38. > :24:41.crack on with that scheme, but they have done nothing. I think ?1

:24:42. > :24:46.billion is a sensible number and I wonder where did the Jedward comment

:24:47. > :24:50.on whether these powers are being used. The honourable gentleman well

:24:51. > :24:54.knows why delays have taken place on that scheme, because of the

:24:55. > :25:00.obstacles in the way, to go through the system of appeals and public

:25:01. > :25:03.inquiry, but certainly, there is unlimited enthusiasm. It is nice to

:25:04. > :25:09.see him sitting there amongst half an acre of empty green leather today

:25:10. > :25:14.and I notice, on a previous reading of this Bill, where one party in

:25:15. > :25:18.this House took great advantage with a video swiped during this part of

:25:19. > :25:26.the House as empty, and their three members here, but the visual image

:25:27. > :25:32.of that was that the person speaking was a Plaid Cymru member who

:25:33. > :25:40.habitually empties these houses as people stampede to the tearoom

:25:41. > :25:47.whenever he speaks! People should not like by using these misleading

:25:48. > :25:53.pictures of the House. What we have before us is challenges to Wales

:25:54. > :25:58.that are unprecedented. And we must understand what leaving the single

:25:59. > :26:01.market will do for Wales, for Welsh industry, for Welsh farming, for the

:26:02. > :26:07.health service. It will hate us much harder in the effect than in England

:26:08. > :26:12.and we must make allowances for that and we're not doing anything of that

:26:13. > :26:16.kind. On the question of roads, raised by the gentleman for Cardiff

:26:17. > :26:21.North, we have a great problem in that the highway robbery which

:26:22. > :26:28.lasted the 52 years of the Severn Bridge tolls, of double taxation to

:26:29. > :26:34.local people, is set to continue, and I think that is an

:26:35. > :26:37.infrastructure project that perhaps the Welsh SMB could look into,

:26:38. > :26:43.because it is an outrage, that people are paying twice for the

:26:44. > :26:47.tolls, we pay for the National road schemes throughout the United

:26:48. > :26:51.Kingdom, we pay our share of that in Wales and the West of England and we

:26:52. > :26:57.pay over again for the tolls. It was accepted by this House under the

:26:58. > :27:02.Severn Bridge tolls Act to do that for a certain period. That period

:27:03. > :27:05.will come to an end later this year or early next year when the Severn

:27:06. > :27:09.Bridges have the same status as every other piece of motorway in the

:27:10. > :27:14.rest of the United Kingdom and should be treated as such. And the

:27:15. > :27:20.cost of maintenance should be borne by the national funding for road

:27:21. > :27:28.services. That is an unquestionable argument in favour of the abolition

:27:29. > :27:31.of the tolls. Those are set to begin similar argument on another bridge

:27:32. > :27:37.but their genesis was rather different. We cannot allow this

:27:38. > :27:41.psychological barrier to Wales to continue to exist. We want to give

:27:42. > :27:46.the impression, complete accessibility, that will be

:27:47. > :27:50.beneficial to those living on both sides of the river Severn, and I

:27:51. > :27:56.hope the government can look at this again. I think, when we look at

:27:57. > :27:59.these bills that come up year after year, we have seen a growing upset

:28:00. > :28:05.this by the people of Wales or the idea of devolution. I'm glad to see

:28:06. > :28:08.there is a total absence of that band of Conservative MPs who have

:28:09. > :28:11.tried to vote against a clause very similar to this one, at the third

:28:12. > :28:28.Reading debate that we had here. This will give the Welsh assembly

:28:29. > :28:32.the position of dignity and status as a real parliament. And from that

:28:33. > :28:43.point of view we welcome it. We would far prefer the grudged nature

:28:44. > :28:47.of devolution. What the decision from the Supreme Court is saying is

:28:48. > :28:56.that this parliament will rule on powers that have already been

:28:57. > :29:01.devolved to Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. They have no right to

:29:02. > :29:06.do that. They are reversing the judgment. This Bill will not take

:29:07. > :29:18.account of Brexit or to the's decision by the Supreme Court. I

:29:19. > :29:23.hadn't planned to say anything this afternoon but I felt I would take

:29:24. > :29:27.the opportunity to do so. To put on record my thanks and congratulations

:29:28. > :29:31.to the Secretary of State for the fantastic way he has steered this

:29:32. > :29:35.Bill through the Commons stages and handled discussions with the Welsh

:29:36. > :29:40.Government and the opposition parties to bring this Bill to

:29:41. > :29:45.fruition. I would like to put on record my thanks to somebody who has

:29:46. > :29:53.not been mentioned this afternoon, Baroness Anderson. When she was a

:29:54. > :29:58.minister in the Welsh office. She was a rock of wisdom and support,

:29:59. > :30:06.and advice on matters about devolution. The matters give effect

:30:07. > :30:09.to the fiscal framework agreement. They do represent the culmination of

:30:10. > :30:15.all those original aims that we set out for this next stage of

:30:16. > :30:19.devolution. I remember 2.5 years ago sitting down with David Cameron in

:30:20. > :30:24.the lead up to the Scottish referendum, a time that we all felt

:30:25. > :30:28.we were in a moment of unique constitutional history and having a

:30:29. > :30:30.discussion with about where does this leave Wales? Do they need to do

:30:31. > :30:40.something further on Welsh devolution? That was on a shelf. My

:30:41. > :30:44.feeling was it was not good enough for Wales to leave Welsh devolution

:30:45. > :30:47.in limbo. There was pressure coming from the Welsh Government and some

:30:48. > :30:54.of the opposition parties to give effect to silk two. We could have

:30:55. > :30:58.resisted that. I felt it was the right thing to do, to pick up the

:30:59. > :31:04.challenge and to do something in terms of the next stage of Welsh

:31:05. > :31:11.devolution. I am grateful to my honourable friend, the current

:31:12. > :31:16.Secretary of State, and others, that we talked about, to look at what we

:31:17. > :31:20.should now do. Comments being made this afternoon about the way that

:31:21. > :31:27.this Bill changed from its precise format as a draft Bill. It has

:31:28. > :31:32.followed an entirely correct process as a draft Bill, consulting, taking

:31:33. > :31:36.guidance, coming back with Edmonds. And listening. That has been the

:31:37. > :31:44.tone through this process. -- amendments. What we wanted to do at

:31:45. > :31:49.the start has not changed. We wanted a stronger devolution settlement for

:31:50. > :31:52.Wales, a clearer settlement. The end some of the constant argument that

:31:53. > :31:58.ended in the Welsh Government and UK Government trotting off to the

:31:59. > :32:03.Supreme Court to argue which institution was responsible for

:32:04. > :32:10.which policy. Ridiculous. We wanted a fair settlement as well. I will

:32:11. > :32:15.gladly give way. I pay tribute to what he did and I know my colleague

:32:16. > :32:20.enjoyed her experience working with him and how he has pushed this

:32:21. > :32:24.agenda forward. I pay tribute to that. One of the tests that he

:32:25. > :32:29.employed, it should stand the test of time and the chapter should be

:32:30. > :32:33.close. Wheels will get used to its new constitutional settlement and we

:32:34. > :32:38.do not need to turn to devolution in the future. Has that has been met? I

:32:39. > :32:44.do not think this is the end of the book in terms of Welsh devolution. I

:32:45. > :32:48.think we do need a prolonged period with the Welsh Government learns to

:32:49. > :32:51.deploy its powers and uses it competencies in a way that it

:32:52. > :33:00.benefits the people of Wales. Talking about the Severn Bridge

:33:01. > :33:05.error. We needed to get the new money for the Welsh Government to do

:33:06. > :33:11.something. The M4 upgrade. I remember taking a question on it.

:33:12. > :33:15.William Hague was sat next to me, he lent across and said he was talking

:33:16. > :33:20.about this 20 years ago when he was Secretary of State for Wales and

:33:21. > :33:23.we're still waiting for action. That was the challenge that risks

:33:24. > :33:28.corroding public support for devolution in Wales. The sense that

:33:29. > :33:31.the Welsh Government, despite the additional powers that they keep

:33:32. > :33:35.receiving to get, is unable to crack on and take the big and bold

:33:36. > :33:39.decisions to improve the lives of people in Wales. Coming back to the

:33:40. > :33:42.point I was making about the core objectives that we set out. I do

:33:43. > :33:48.believe this Bill meets those objectors. It creates stronger

:33:49. > :33:54.devolution, with additional powers for the assembly as an institution

:33:55. > :33:58.and for Welsh Government. It creates a clearer settlement as a result of

:33:59. > :34:01.the fiscal framework. The amendments that we are debating in this

:34:02. > :34:06.particular section which gives effect to the funding with the new

:34:07. > :34:11.borrowing powers that the Welsh Government will get. I remember 2.5

:34:12. > :34:15.years ago, being told that those four things they wanted to achieve,

:34:16. > :34:18.there was no chance of getting them. I was told the Treasury would not

:34:19. > :34:23.agree, the Welsh Government would not agree to take on tax-raising

:34:24. > :34:28.powers, income tax, I was told that the backbenchers would not agree to

:34:29. > :34:32.it. The approach of all parties working together, trying to sketch

:34:33. > :34:36.out and respecting the differences of each other, parties like Plaid

:34:37. > :34:42.Cymru have the long-standing aspirations and ambitions for Welsh

:34:43. > :34:46.devolution that none of the whales bills have met over the years.

:34:47. > :34:50.Nevertheless, there was a constructive tone that led a good

:34:51. > :34:54.foundation and provided the smooth passage for what I believe is a

:34:55. > :34:57.reasonably good Bill. Not the end of the story but I hope the end of an

:34:58. > :35:10.interesting chapter on Welsh devolution. I am sure the House will

:35:11. > :35:16.join me in wishing the best to my honourable friend, the Member for

:35:17. > :35:22.Carmarthen East. He is expecting the imminent arrival for the latest

:35:23. > :35:27.member of his family and I sympathise with all MPs who have to

:35:28. > :35:31.balance family life with their duty. I extend a welcome to the fact that

:35:32. > :35:36.the fiscal framework is now in place. It gives the Welsh Government

:35:37. > :35:41.a degree of financial accountability that is intrinsic for any fully

:35:42. > :35:45.functioning democratic parliament. Judgement is still very much out on

:35:46. > :35:50.whether it can really deliver the economic accountability and the

:35:51. > :35:56.levers for growth that are required. I therefore want to start with

:35:57. > :36:05.making a few brief comments from the lack of aggression -- ambition for

:36:06. > :36:10.this. I will discuss how this trademark will work and then

:36:11. > :36:15.discussing the capital expenditure. Despite having the fiscal framework

:36:16. > :36:19.in place, we still are behind every devolved administration in terms of

:36:20. > :36:25.the powers and responsibilities we have got. Earlier today, as it seems

:36:26. > :36:31.on most days, we are embroiled with the Brexit conundrum and all the

:36:32. > :36:33.unravelling economic complications. This Government on the patchwork

:36:34. > :36:37.approach to devolution means that Wales will not have the real levers

:36:38. > :36:42.it needs for growth in need at this most difficult of economic times. If

:36:43. > :36:45.the Party opposite wants to talk about the opportunities that a

:36:46. > :36:50.single market and Customs union exit brings for Wales, we should look at

:36:51. > :36:54.the fiscal levers for growth, including the most important tax for

:36:55. > :36:58.Wales, value added tax and how that could be devolved. I hope this

:36:59. > :37:09.minister will indicate he plans to review this framework in light of

:37:10. > :37:12.recent developments to make sure that Wales has got these fiscal

:37:13. > :37:14.levers. I want to touch on this technical point which my colleague,

:37:15. > :37:19.Alan Price, has raised with the finance Secretary. The 115% rule

:37:20. > :37:22.that is being referred to as the Horton floor is based on a satellite

:37:23. > :37:29.criteria that determine the relative need of Wales in 2009-10. There are

:37:30. > :37:31.plans to conduct a review of this relative need to grind it is

:37:32. > :37:41.implemented in the Mac years from now. It is perfectly reasonable to

:37:42. > :37:48.interpret them as being ten years out of date. Although we had

:37:49. > :37:52.something of a debate over this in the interventions, surely the 115%

:37:53. > :37:56.rule cannot be set in stone for all time. I would ask the Minister to

:37:57. > :38:03.bring forward a proposal to investigate that. I am happy to

:38:04. > :38:11.clarify the point that the fiscal framework agreement supported by the

:38:12. > :38:14.Welsh Government, it does include opportunities for periodic review. I

:38:15. > :38:21.welcome his comment on periodic reviews. It is timely given we are

:38:22. > :38:25.holding this discussion now. Rather than using ten-year-old statistics,

:38:26. > :38:29.this is a resident point and I do welcome his comment. I would like to

:38:30. > :38:33.raise some concerns about the dispute resolution framework

:38:34. > :38:36.mechanism. This may not be the time to do it here and it could be

:38:37. > :38:40.something that can be resolved in discussions in the future. I would

:38:41. > :38:45.like to finish on a final point that emphasises the lack of ambition of

:38:46. > :38:48.both governments. In the House of Lords, Plaid Cymru called for the 10

:38:49. > :38:55.billion capital expenditure limit and it was supported by Labour.

:38:56. > :38:59.Under pressure from the devolution sceptic Conservative Party, we're

:39:00. > :39:06.left with an expenditure of half of that. I am pleased that a fiscal

:39:07. > :39:10.framework is finally in place. I cannot avoid the observation that

:39:11. > :39:20.Wales is once again being short-changed by a lack of vision

:39:21. > :39:26.and the of ambition. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker for calling me

:39:27. > :39:30.to speak in a debate that is important to me as somebody who has

:39:31. > :39:35.served as a member of the National Assembly of Wales for it back years,

:39:36. > :39:41.come here, spending six years. Most of my political life has been

:39:42. > :39:45.dogged, if I can use that word, on whales bills, of one sort or

:39:46. > :39:50.another. I do not know if I will still be a member of this Party when

:39:51. > :39:55.this -- this parliament when the next one comes. There may well be

:39:56. > :40:01.the next round. It is a great honour to speak in a debate about the

:40:02. > :40:08.whales Bill which is particularly important and does take devolution

:40:09. > :40:12.foreword to a much more stable place than it has been since 1999 when it

:40:13. > :40:20.was first established. There is a whole host of areas where I could

:40:21. > :40:23.speak about. On some of them there will be disagreement across the

:40:24. > :40:31.floor of this House. There are two Mac principles that are important to

:40:32. > :40:35.me. The fiscal issues. I do think the reserved powers model, moving to

:40:36. > :40:37.a reserved powers model is fundamental and hugely important.

:40:38. > :40:43.There will be disagreements about what should be the reserved to the

:40:44. > :40:47.Westminster Parliament and what should not. Moving to a reserved

:40:48. > :40:53.powers model is a very big step forward. I have been part of Colin

:40:54. > :41:04.Ford at since 1999. I do not think we should forget that in discussions

:41:05. > :41:07.about finance. What we have been and discussion in this debate is to do

:41:08. > :41:12.with financial issues. There is one related to borrowing powers and I

:41:13. > :41:16.greatly support that. It does give new and important borrowing powers

:41:17. > :41:22.to the Welsh Government. There have been some issues. Members have

:41:23. > :41:28.raised it is not big enough or high and. I have heard that the

:41:29. > :41:33.responsible Government minister in Cardiff, they will not borrow ?1

:41:34. > :41:37.billion that is allowed in the first instance in any case. This does make

:41:38. > :41:42.this borrowing power, it does make a significant difference to how the

:41:43. > :41:48.Welsh Government can operate. Another issue that there has been

:41:49. > :41:52.some debate about, it is the 115%. A number of speakers have referred to

:41:53. > :41:58.this. Since I have been involved in the politics of Wales, we have had

:41:59. > :42:02.the members of the opposition usually calling for exactly that.

:42:03. > :42:06.Colin for your level of spending in Wales that was the equivalent of

:42:07. > :42:18.what would happen in Britain. A is it. -- were hundreds and 15% is it.

:42:19. > :42:25.It is below what is happening now. It is not sufficient... Not

:42:26. > :42:29.sufficient appreciation has ever been for the skill of funding that

:42:30. > :42:33.the current Government makes to Wales. Just complaining about

:42:34. > :42:37.something all the time can give the wrong impression. What is being

:42:38. > :42:41.called for since I have been a member of the assembly in 1999 and

:42:42. > :42:46.here, has actually been delivered and we should recognise that. The

:42:47. > :42:49.one other point I want to finish on, it has been particularly important

:42:50. > :42:58.to me, is the devolution of income tax. I've long believed that this

:42:59. > :43:04.was crucial. The devolution was going to move forward. Any future

:43:05. > :43:08.Welsh Government would be accountable to the Welsh people, it

:43:09. > :43:13.has to be financially accountable. It has to be a form of

:43:14. > :43:19.accountability that the voting public recognise. Income tax is

:43:20. > :43:22.that. It income tax is devolved, there will be a debate at every

:43:23. > :43:27.election about the appropriate level of income tax. And people will be

:43:28. > :43:31.voting looking at both sides of the ledger. What the Government intends

:43:32. > :43:32.to spend and what it intends to raise. All we have had is a spending

:43:33. > :43:46.plan. I would only refer to it as a

:43:47. > :43:50.spending plan, not our budget. You have got to have both sides. That is

:43:51. > :43:56.where we are moving too, with the devolution of income tax. This bill,

:43:57. > :44:00.and I am hugely proud to have been a supporter of it, I think it is a

:44:01. > :44:04.very good bill, it isn't the end of the story, of course it isn't. Who

:44:05. > :44:08.knows what is going to be done in the next Parliament? But it is a

:44:09. > :44:12.good bill. It takes is forward to a position that is much more stable.

:44:13. > :44:20.It gives the Welsh government much more accountability. It delivers,

:44:21. > :44:25.first of all, a position within a unified United Kingdom which I think

:44:26. > :44:29.is clear. But it also does give a degree of influence and power to the

:44:30. > :44:34.Welsh government to deliver the sort of devolution and power which the

:44:35. > :44:47.people who live in Wales actually want the Welsh government to have.

:44:48. > :44:52.Thank you. No more standing up. The question is, this House agrees with

:44:53. > :44:56.the the Lords in their amendment nine, As many as are of that opinion

:44:57. > :45:05.say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes have it, the Ayes have it. Ministers will

:45:06. > :45:10.move to agree to Lords Amendment 44, formerly. The question is that this

:45:11. > :45:14.House agrees with the laws in their amendment, 44. As many as are of

:45:15. > :45:21.that opinion say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes have it, the Ayes have it.

:45:22. > :45:27.We come to Lords Amendment ten and will consider the other amendments

:45:28. > :45:34.listed on the selection paper. I call the Minister to move to agree

:45:35. > :45:44.to Lords' amendment ten. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy

:45:45. > :45:47.Speaker, this group of amendments delivers a comprehensive and lasting

:45:48. > :45:52.devolution settlement for Wales on water and sewerage. Members will

:45:53. > :45:56.know that water is an issue of great symbolic importance as well as

:45:57. > :46:01.practical significance in Wales. Throughout the passage of this bill,

:46:02. > :46:04.few issues of race more passion and debate than the issue of water.

:46:05. > :46:10.There is no question that there cannot be a lasting devolution

:46:11. > :46:13.settlement with Wales without water devolution. The government has

:46:14. > :46:18.therefore been determined to grasp the nettle and resolve the matter

:46:19. > :46:22.once and for all. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was delighted to be able

:46:23. > :46:27.to announce last autumn that we would rip place the Secretary of

:46:28. > :46:30.State's powers to intervene on both of statutory agreement between the

:46:31. > :46:35.UK and Welsh governments, in other words, a water protocol between the

:46:36. > :46:40.two governance Madam Deputy Speaker, replaced those intervention powers,

:46:41. > :46:44.representing a clear break with the past and on another landmark in

:46:45. > :46:49.history of Welsh devolution. The existing intervention powers put in

:46:50. > :46:53.place in the government of Wales Act 2006 when the party opposite was in

:46:54. > :46:58.government. Since then, they have taken on an almost totemic status

:46:59. > :47:02.despite having never been used. Their removal is another important

:47:03. > :47:07.change alongside many others in this bill that makes the coming-of-age of

:47:08. > :47:14.devolved government in Wales. Amendments 30, 31 and 30 to give

:47:15. > :47:22.effect to this historic change. -- 32. We are absolutely clear that

:47:23. > :47:26.this will be a protocol that has teeth. Both governments will be

:47:27. > :47:29.subject to a duty to Act in accordance with the new agreements

:47:30. > :47:35.and, once in place, both will need to agree any changes to it. The

:47:36. > :47:39.agreement will also need to have a process that both governments sign

:47:40. > :47:42.up to, for resolving any disagreements. The new arrangements

:47:43. > :47:46.will need to be negotiated, and that may take some time, but the bill as

:47:47. > :47:50.amended in the House of Lords ensures that the Secretary of

:47:51. > :47:54.State's intervention powers can be repealed once an agreement is

:47:55. > :47:58.formally entered in to do. Amendment 31 is a crucial part of this package

:47:59. > :48:04.as it enforces a duty on both UK and Welsh ministers to have regard to

:48:05. > :48:07.putting this on either side of the border when exercising functions

:48:08. > :48:13.relating to water resources, water supply or water quality. Madam

:48:14. > :48:16.Deputy Speaker, the removal of these intervention powers ensured we were

:48:17. > :48:20.able to conclude our consideration of the wider devolution issues

:48:21. > :48:23.relating to water and sewerage, including the question of whether

:48:24. > :48:27.powers over water and sewerage should be aligned with the England

:48:28. > :48:34.and Wales order and whether the sewerage intervention policies, of

:48:35. > :48:37.course 46 in the Delve when it with this House, could be removed.

:48:38. > :48:39.Amendment 30 removed those intervention powers from the Bill

:48:40. > :48:42.and a great deal of work has gone into the question of where the

:48:43. > :48:46.devolution boundary should be aligned with the geographical

:48:47. > :48:49.boundary of Wales. I will take a quick intervention from the

:48:50. > :48:55.honourable member. I'm grateful to the menace of giving way. Thank you,

:48:56. > :48:59.Madam Deputy Speaker. I thought might the giving of the intervention

:49:00. > :49:06.power. Does the Minister remain concerned, as I am, that will be no

:49:07. > :49:11.direct line of accountability between Ofwat and the Welsh

:49:12. > :49:14.ministers? There will be an opportunity to consult and work

:49:15. > :49:19.through with the Secretary of State on that issue and a protocol that

:49:20. > :49:24.has been put in place should reveal more detail in due course but it is

:49:25. > :49:28.a fact that we are moving in that direction on the basis protocol

:49:29. > :49:33.between the two governments that the honourable should welcome. Yes, I

:49:34. > :49:39.will give way to the honourable member. I am most grateful, he has

:49:40. > :49:42.been very generous. Would you clarify the position as far as the

:49:43. > :49:50.Competition and Markets Authority is concerned? They have a regulatory

:49:51. > :49:53.role that is very relevant to water. Will they be accountable to the

:49:54. > :50:01.Welsh government and to the Assembly? Is important to highlight

:50:02. > :50:05.that this Bill is not devolving competition power. It is actually

:50:06. > :50:09.being reserved. There will be an ability for the Welsh government and

:50:10. > :50:13.for This Place, obviously, to ensure that the views of electors in Wales

:50:14. > :50:15.on this important issue are taken into account, but clearly,

:50:16. > :50:24.competition issues are being reserved, as part of this Bill.

:50:25. > :50:25.Further work is needed to consider the practical implications of

:50:26. > :50:31.implementing the commission recommendations. The government set

:50:32. > :50:35.up the joint government 's programme board with Welsh government to at

:50:36. > :50:38.these issues and report on the likely affect implementing the

:50:39. > :50:43.recommendations would have won the efficient delivery of water and

:50:44. > :50:51.sewerage services. After considering the conclusions of that work,

:50:52. > :50:55.governments put forward amendment 28 of the government of Wales Act 2006

:50:56. > :50:59.and says Tobias J Gill won into this Bill to be amended to devolve both

:51:00. > :51:04.water and sewerage policy as it relates to Wales. While on paper

:51:05. > :51:09.this signify -- simplifies the devolution arrangements it will

:51:10. > :51:13.involve the unpicking of several parts of primary and secondary

:51:14. > :51:16.legislation with the England and Wales border. Amendment 29 provides

:51:17. > :51:21.an order making power limited to making changes to previously

:51:22. > :51:24.transferred functions and functions directly conferred by planning

:51:25. > :51:29.legislation relating to water and sewerage that we will be able to

:51:30. > :51:33.make the various changes through secondary legislation, once the

:51:34. > :51:37.spill has been enacted. Madam Deputy Speaker, the amendments of this

:51:38. > :51:41.group provide a significant package of water devolution to Wales. They

:51:42. > :51:45.deliver a stable, mature and affect the devolution settlement by

:51:46. > :51:49.aligning powers over water and sewerage with the national border

:51:50. > :51:52.and replacing the Secretary of State's intervention powers relating

:51:53. > :51:55.to water with an intergovernmental protocol. These new arrangements are

:51:56. > :52:00.in the best interests of water consumers on both sides of the

:52:01. > :52:05.border and I urge the House to accept these laws' amendments. The

:52:06. > :52:13.question is that this House agrees with Lords Amendment ten. Thank you,

:52:14. > :52:15.Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to speak about the amendments in

:52:16. > :52:20.this section. The devolution of water and sewerage matters to the

:52:21. > :52:26.Welsh government is welcome and somewhat overdue. The tragedy will

:52:27. > :52:30.never be forgotten but the amendments in this section should be

:52:31. > :52:34.another step forward in ensuring that nothing like it will ever

:52:35. > :52:38.happen again. More broadly, whilst some cross-border aspects of water

:52:39. > :52:41.regulation remains, we are pleased that the Secretary of State has

:52:42. > :52:48.given up his ability to intervene on this issue and like the member for

:52:49. > :52:51.Cardiff Central, I find myself in a somewhat strange place of thanking

:52:52. > :52:59.the government for their movement on this issue, albeit after some

:53:00. > :53:02.prodding year and on the Other Place. Unlike the member for Cardiff

:53:03. > :53:07.Central I believe that these amendments do not go far enough.

:53:08. > :53:16.Whilst these amendments correct some problems, there remains discrepancy

:53:17. > :53:21.is, as the member for McAfee raised in an intervention. There is the

:53:22. > :53:24.matter of Ofwat and this accountability to the Welsh

:53:25. > :53:27.government. When it is discharging its function in Wales, it surely

:53:28. > :53:31.ought to be accountable in some form to the National Assembly of Wales

:53:32. > :53:37.and Welsh ministers. As it stands, Welsh ministers regulate water and

:53:38. > :53:40.sewerage operators in Wales but with the Secretary of State being able to

:53:41. > :53:43.exercises functions are giving general direction to Ofwat without

:53:44. > :53:49.any legal, mandated consultation with Welsh ministers. To be clear,

:53:50. > :53:52.our argument would be for Welsh ministers only to be able to provide

:53:53. > :53:58.directions in connection with matters relating to water and

:53:59. > :54:02.sewerage operators in Wales, or were licensed activities are carried out

:54:03. > :54:07.using this is why system of water and sewerage operators in Wales.

:54:08. > :54:09.Does that not seem a very reasonable and straightforward request? Surely

:54:10. > :54:15.not a step beyond imagining for the Minister. That the regulator for the

:54:16. > :54:19.sector should be mandated to consult with and speak to politicians

:54:20. > :54:26.dealing with the implementation of that sector. As the member for

:54:27. > :54:29.Wrexham may well expand on it, it is not sufficient to believe that

:54:30. > :54:34.regulation from London will always work in the interests of communities

:54:35. > :54:38.in Wales. I will let them expand upon this point and the

:54:39. > :54:41.ramifications of these amendments with the campaign he's fighting in

:54:42. > :54:45.this community, but I pay tribute to him and his work on raising this

:54:46. > :54:52.issue and I would assure the House that we on this House, on the side

:54:53. > :54:57.support him in it. The member for Cardiff Central, despite the gaps we

:54:58. > :55:02.have in these amendments, we will not be voting against them today. I

:55:03. > :55:05.would like the Minister to provide a substantial response to the points I

:55:06. > :55:10.raised and give some assurance that the issue of Ofwat and the Welsh

:55:11. > :55:16.government can be looked at through some mechanism outside of the bill,

:55:17. > :55:32.and that he keeps the House informed of his progress with it. Yes, you

:55:33. > :55:36.are on! In my advanced state of years I did not hear you, for which

:55:37. > :55:40.I apologise but I am greatly honoured at being called by the

:55:41. > :55:46.front bench speakers in this debate. I welcome this legislation. I'd go

:55:47. > :55:51.as far as to say that its impact and its existence is actually having an

:55:52. > :55:57.impact before it hits the statute book, because, as a firm believer in

:55:58. > :56:03.the adage that there are no coincidences in politics, just as

:56:04. > :56:12.this Bill and the amendment being put down in the Lords, my

:56:13. > :56:19.constituency and that of my good friend from Clwyd South, our local

:56:20. > :56:23.water company, the Valley water, was the subject of a takeover bid from

:56:24. > :56:29.Severn Trent Water, and I suspect that that bid is not unconnected to

:56:30. > :56:35.the existence of the clauses in this Bill, because, of course, the Bill

:56:36. > :56:39.closes to give more powers and a greater role to Wales, the Assembly

:56:40. > :56:46.for Wales and the Welsh government and, I suspect that the regulators

:56:47. > :56:50.and the accountability that will now be transferred from the UK

:56:51. > :56:56.Government to the Welsh government, it would be much more difficult to

:56:57. > :57:02.advance the policy course which is taking place at the present time as

:57:03. > :57:07.the Severn Trent bid was happening. I can't say too much specifically

:57:08. > :57:10.about that bid because it is actually in the court tomorrow,

:57:11. > :57:11.which is of course the most important court case that's taking

:57:12. > :57:28.place this week! I am a great believer in local

:57:29. > :57:33.accountability and services. In Wrexham we have got a good water

:57:34. > :57:39.Company employing 300 people. The workforce to my knowledge are united

:57:40. > :57:49.in the wish to have the Severn Trent bid rejected. And because water is a

:57:50. > :57:52.monopoly, the role of regulators... There are two Mac regulators

:57:53. > :58:01.involved in this process and there will be in future. It is crucially

:58:02. > :58:06.important. My view is that the regulators have very much let me

:58:07. > :58:12.down. As both a member of Parliament and as a local customer. Let the

:58:13. > :58:16.workforce down and let the community down. The Government have also let

:58:17. > :58:21.the community down because they have stepped aside host the very good,

:58:22. > :58:28.efficient local business is being taken over by a much larger business

:58:29. > :58:32.in what I would regard as a predatory way. The workforce are

:58:33. > :58:39.very worried about their future. I do not want to be part of the

:58:40. > :58:45.customer base that pays into a pot that pays the chief executive of

:58:46. > :58:52.Severn Trent Water ?2.4 million per annum as a salary. I think that is

:58:53. > :58:57.out of touch with the people that I represent. I do not think it is an

:58:58. > :59:01.appropriate course. I do not agree with the situation where we are

:59:02. > :59:07.having one less water company as a result of this proposed takeover.

:59:08. > :59:10.That means we will have less competition and less benchmarks

:59:11. > :59:16.against which to measure water companies in terms of price and

:59:17. > :59:23.quality. I am disappointed that the competition and markets authority

:59:24. > :59:28.have not got involved and have not revealed this enquiry to stage two

:59:29. > :59:37.Mac enquiry to look into it in more detail. I think the Government has

:59:38. > :59:45.let local people in Wrexham and Chester, where the valley water

:59:46. > :59:57.supply watered-down, the regulator have let the people down. And the

:59:58. > :00:03.RNA situation where the proposals in this Bill are very welcome indeed. I

:00:04. > :00:09.do wish they happened one day to go. If they happened one year ago, the

:00:10. > :00:13.people of the community that I represent would have been listened

:00:14. > :00:18.to by a Government that had influence and authority and would

:00:19. > :00:24.have exerted influence to prison -- to prevent the predatory taking over

:00:25. > :00:27.of our local business which is serving our community well and has

:00:28. > :00:37.been let down badly by this proposal. I rose to speak to the

:00:38. > :00:45.second group of amendments led by amendment ten. My noble friend, a

:00:46. > :00:52.Ridley, welcomed the proposals to have power over water. He outlined

:00:53. > :00:58.how a historic wrong could be righted. He outlined in the great

:00:59. > :01:03.depth how the drowning of Welsh valleys have motivated his politics

:01:04. > :01:07.and so many people in Wales. How 50 years ago in Cabra Philae, the

:01:08. > :01:16.expulsion of people from their homes on land led to the destruction of

:01:17. > :01:22.communities. The high-handed way in which the people of Westminster

:01:23. > :01:28.treated the people in Wales has repercussions. It is amendment 30

:01:29. > :01:31.where this so-called water protocol is outlined which embodies the

:01:32. > :01:38.entrenched Tory resistance to addressing this in Justin 's in any

:01:39. > :01:43.meaningful terms. -- this injustice. What protocol this could take could

:01:44. > :01:48.not be fleshed out. We could have a -- we do not have a draft protocol

:01:49. > :01:54.in this Bill. We do not have an outline of a draft protocol. Or a

:01:55. > :01:58.protocol by which to arrive at a protocol. Despite this lack of

:01:59. > :02:04.clarity, the Government are willing to include Clauses watering down

:02:05. > :02:07.this already thin provisioning. Amendment 31 explicitly charges

:02:08. > :02:12.Welsh ministers with the interest of English consumers when it comes to

:02:13. > :02:17.any changes to our water supply. It is important to note that it

:02:18. > :02:20.references English consumers. We are not concerned with communities or

:02:21. > :02:28.individuals. Communities are what matter. Consumers in this amendment

:02:29. > :02:31.are what matters and the Welsh national resources are not ours to

:02:32. > :02:38.dispose of two our best advantage. The Government is encouraging the

:02:39. > :02:43.privacy of competition over the interests of Wales. The amendment

:02:44. > :02:49.refers to the water industry act 1991. This act was based on the

:02:50. > :02:54.issue of promoting competition. This -- does this means that we will have

:02:55. > :02:58.a protocol, the well-being of the water consumer is tied up with the

:02:59. > :03:04.tenants of free-market competition. Perhaps the Minister could explain

:03:05. > :03:09.it further? I thank you for allowing me to intervene. In relation to the

:03:10. > :03:12.contents of the protocol and whether it will be inclusive of the

:03:13. > :03:17.Thatcherite dogma, surely that will be a matter for the Welsh Government

:03:18. > :03:20.to agree with Westminster so they will be no Thatcherite dog but

:03:21. > :03:25.unless the Welsh Government agrees to it. The Minister did explain that

:03:26. > :03:29.competition was a reserved matter. It does beg the question what does

:03:30. > :03:34.the dogma have to do with either of -- reserved powers in order for

:03:35. > :03:38.Wales. My Party and many people in Wales feel cheated when the Minister

:03:39. > :03:44.played the card of water devolution, we were led to believe this would be

:03:45. > :03:50.a real game changer. It is no more than smoke and mirrors. We

:03:51. > :03:54.considered putting 1132 vote but we will spill the chamber this exercise

:03:55. > :03:59.because people only tweak with the wording something we have already

:04:00. > :04:03.opposed. I want the record to reflect we will not be taken in by

:04:04. > :04:08.empty words dressed up as substance by the Government. This remains a

:04:09. > :04:13.cynical political sleight of hand, endeavouring to gain capital from a

:04:14. > :04:20.historic event that is deep emotional significance in Wales. As

:04:21. > :04:28.much as two Mac words can ever encapsulate a feeling or a sense, I

:04:29. > :04:34.think those two Mac words remember... I do hope that we do not

:04:35. > :04:38.look back on this year and think of another four words as in calculating

:04:39. > :04:48.the spirit of our age. I do hope those words... Remembered the Valley

:04:49. > :04:54.water. What my friend, the Honourable Member for Wrexham stated

:04:55. > :04:58.powerfully, is a difficulty that is happening in our part of the North

:04:59. > :05:02.East Wales which threaten the livelihoods of many people working

:05:03. > :05:07.for a local water company. It is a David and Goliath battle in a sense.

:05:08. > :05:13.There is real fear that on this occasion, David might not win. David

:05:14. > :05:20.is in the courts tomorrow. We cannot speak of many of the intricacies of

:05:21. > :05:24.this. What we can say is one of the smallest UK water companies, it

:05:25. > :05:30.might be the smallest water company, the details on that I would have to

:05:31. > :05:36.check, one has the fourth lowest water bills of any water Company in

:05:37. > :05:43.the United Kingdom. It is in court against its Goliath. It is in court

:05:44. > :05:49.to do with issues as to the votes of shareholders. One thing that this

:05:50. > :05:56.does show, what we have seen in North East Wales over this issue, we

:05:57. > :06:01.have seen what used to be called the unacceptable face of capitalism.

:06:02. > :06:08.Where a monastic, large predator can come and try to take over a local

:06:09. > :06:18.workforce, a local company, quite against the wills of the local

:06:19. > :06:23.workforce and local consumers. I fear that the course of great

:06:24. > :06:27.regret. When my honourable friend, the Member for Wrexham, speaks about

:06:28. > :06:34.issues concerning us, issues to do with the role of competition and

:06:35. > :06:38.markets authority. And the of linkage in terms of devolution to

:06:39. > :06:47.the Welsh assembly. And also points he raised about of watch. They are

:06:48. > :06:52.serious points indeed. There are serious points when we consider the

:06:53. > :06:58.future of water in our area. There is symbolism that attaches itself

:06:59. > :07:18.and rightly so. The chair of the action

:07:19. > :07:33.Committee I would charge this House, as we approach the devolution of

:07:34. > :07:36.water, forget capably about what is happening with Dee Valley water.

:07:37. > :07:41.Aspects of company law, it should not be right if local people,

:07:42. > :07:47.shareholders, employees of the company, if local ownership matters

:07:48. > :07:49.to us then surely a predatory takeover is in nobody 's interests

:07:50. > :08:03.other than the large predator itself.

:08:04. > :08:09.I welcome those aspects which are devolving water to the Welsh

:08:10. > :08:13.Government. I agree it is totemic and a symbolic. I want something

:08:14. > :08:21.that works and something that works for people in North East Wales.

:08:22. > :08:27.Thank you for calling me to say a few words specifically on Clause 46

:08:28. > :08:32.of amendment 30 of the water protocol. Every time I travel south

:08:33. > :08:42.in my constituency I go past a very famous bit of graffiti.

:08:43. > :08:47.Intermittently, that acceptable bit of graffiti has been vandalised by

:08:48. > :08:51.others. No sooner has it been vandalised. It does not take long

:08:52. > :08:59.for it to be restored to its glory. And so it should. The Government

:09:00. > :09:05.have a knowledge sensitive issues need to be dealt with sensitively.

:09:06. > :09:14.History does not always them those sensitivities. In that spirit I

:09:15. > :09:19.reflect on the very long gestation period of the water protocol. It was

:09:20. > :09:26.recommended by Sir Paul silk in February 2015... I remember my Party

:09:27. > :09:30.'s representative as long as -- as well as the predecessor, employed in

:09:31. > :09:35.the Wales Office, when we went through the silk recommendations and

:09:36. > :09:38.came across the devolution of water responsibilities and sewage. It was

:09:39. > :09:48.easier to dispense with sewage than it was with water. The officials

:09:49. > :09:53.were charged with going back and looking at this issue. It was

:09:54. > :09:58.complex. Not least assigning boundaries, national boundaries with

:09:59. > :10:04.water companies responsibilities. I am pleased with the Government in

:10:05. > :10:07.the St David's Day agreement having knowledge, my part in association

:10:08. > :10:14.with the Conservative Party in Government too, that there should be

:10:15. > :10:19.a water protocol. On paper at least, the protocol makes eminent sense. It

:10:20. > :10:27.must be said that it will be easier for us to pass judgment on it where

:10:28. > :10:33.we too have some draft. Indeed, any assessment of the criteria under

:10:34. > :10:37.which it will work. That was a point made by the lordships in another

:10:38. > :10:43.place. More detail would have been helpful as well as a timescale. The

:10:44. > :10:49.protocol will swing into action and sometimes kill will be helpful. I

:10:50. > :10:52.ask you to give some indication of that. There were some concerns

:10:53. > :10:58.raised in another place, right up until the end of proceedings. If I

:10:59. > :11:05.could summarise them. I look to the Minister to assure me these matters

:11:06. > :11:08.will be dealt with. The lordships were looking for a clear statement

:11:09. > :11:15.that the National Assembly has total control over the creation of

:11:16. > :11:19.reservoirs in Wales. They were looking for the assembly to have

:11:20. > :11:29.legislative control over all matters relating to water in all of Wales.

:11:30. > :11:34.In terms of worth the Welsh border. Is he satisfied that those questions

:11:35. > :11:40.will be adequately addressed by the protocol when it is enacted and

:11:41. > :11:47.becomes a reality? The pedantic point on the first line about the

:11:48. > :11:53.amendment, the new Clause 46, Welsh ministers and the Secretary of state

:11:54. > :11:59.may make a protocol. Should that not read, shall make a protocol?

:12:00. > :12:03.Anything less than this protocol that does not emerge on the list

:12:04. > :12:09.difficulties in achieving this, it would not serve the people of Wales

:12:10. > :12:12.well. I welcome the attempts. There are still unanswered questions and I

:12:13. > :12:21.look forward to hearing from the Minister.

:12:22. > :12:31.With Leader of the House will take Lords Amendments 28-32, 46...

:12:32. > :12:37.Question then. -- with leave of the House. The question is does the

:12:38. > :12:43.House agree with amendment ten from the Lords, As many as are of that

:12:44. > :12:49.opinion say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes have it. With leave, we will

:12:50. > :12:55.take Lords Amendments 28, 32, 46, and 137 together. I call the

:12:56. > :13:01.Minister to move amendments 28-32, 46, and 130 seven. The question is

:13:02. > :13:09.that this House agrees with the Lords Amendments 28-32, 46, 137, As

:13:10. > :13:14.many as are of that opinion say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes have it, the

:13:15. > :13:16.Ayes have it. We now come to Lords Amendment one with which it will be

:13:17. > :13:28.convened to consider the remaining Lords Amendments A and B to

:13:29. > :13:33.amendment 30 six. I call the Minister to agree with amendment

:13:34. > :13:39.one. I beg to me that this House agrees with amendment one. As I

:13:40. > :13:47.stated earlier, we have engaged with peers, the Welsh government, the

:13:48. > :13:52.number of colleagues on all sides of this House and interested parties to

:13:53. > :13:55.the issues raised. We have been opened and making changes to improve

:13:56. > :14:00.the bill where there is a good case to do so and the bill before us

:14:01. > :14:04.today is a better one as a result. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are

:14:05. > :14:08.large number is of amendments in this grouping, testament to the fact

:14:09. > :14:12.that the government has been open to improving the new devolution

:14:13. > :14:18.settlement we can. Whilst I do not intend to discuss each amendment in

:14:19. > :14:19.detail, there are a number of amendments to the bill I would like

:14:20. > :14:23.to draw to the attention of the to draw to the attention of the

:14:24. > :14:27.House. We've amended the bill to deal with particular concerns about

:14:28. > :14:31.how universities are treated in the new reserve powers model. During the

:14:32. > :14:38.passage of the bill through the Other Place, concerns were raised by

:14:39. > :14:40.the higher education sector that defining universities as Wales

:14:41. > :14:44.public authorities might suggest they should be classified more

:14:45. > :14:53.widely as public authorities. This was not our intention. Amendments

:14:54. > :14:56.three, four, and 115 resolve this by naming Wales public authorities as

:14:57. > :15:01.devolved Welsh authorities. This response to the calls from

:15:02. > :15:05.university specifically as well as universities in Wales. We have

:15:06. > :15:09.ensured that the Open University will be defined as an authority

:15:10. > :15:14.which carries out the mix of devolved and reserved functions

:15:15. > :15:19.reflecting status as a UK wide institution this will allow the

:15:20. > :15:22.Assembly to legislate to confer functions on the Open University

:15:23. > :15:28.without requiring the consent of a UK minister. We have expanded the

:15:29. > :15:32.list of devolved Welsh authorities in response to concerns raised by

:15:33. > :15:35.the Welsh government and others. Turning to tribunal is, Madam Deputy

:15:36. > :15:41.Speaker, the government also brought forward a number of amendments

:15:42. > :15:44.relating to these. These amendments resulted from extensive discussions

:15:45. > :15:47.with the Welsh government, the Ministry of Justice and the senior

:15:48. > :15:55.judiciary. They are intended to improve their way it is managed and

:15:56. > :15:59.to maximise flexibility in deploying judicial resources in Welsh tribunal

:16:00. > :16:04.'s. The amendments tabled in the Other Place would create a statutory

:16:05. > :16:08.office of president of Welsh tribunal is to oversee the work of

:16:09. > :16:12.the devolved Welsh tribunal 's. New schedule five of the bill provides

:16:13. > :16:17.for a two stage process for the appointment of a person to this new

:16:18. > :16:21.statutory role. These new clauses will also allow for the deployment

:16:22. > :16:24.of judges between the tribunal 's and between reserve tribunal is in

:16:25. > :16:30.England and Wales, to share expertise in a way that cannot

:16:31. > :16:33.happen under current legislation. These are important amendments, a

:16:34. > :16:39.product of constructive work with the Welsh government, the Ministry

:16:40. > :16:42.of Justice and others. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government 's key aim

:16:43. > :16:47.in introducing the new reserve powers model is to deliver clarity

:16:48. > :16:50.in the boundary to been the Assembly's competence and the

:16:51. > :16:54.competence of this Parliament, particularly in light of the Supreme

:16:55. > :16:59.Court judgment relating to the agricultural wages board settlement.

:17:00. > :17:01.Many amendments, therefore, either alter or remove altogether

:17:02. > :17:05.reservations contained in the new schedule seven A. The government has

:17:06. > :17:11.brought forward a number of amendments to deal with the planning

:17:12. > :17:13.system and the war that governs the construction of buildings,

:17:14. > :17:18.responding to concerns raised by the Welsh government. Amendment 71

:17:19. > :17:20.divorce companies are planning information to railways making it

:17:21. > :17:26.consistent with the position in Scotland. We brought forward

:17:27. > :17:29.amendments to replace the full reservation of compulsory purchase

:17:30. > :17:35.with one that covers only compensation. This, again, was in

:17:36. > :17:39.the calls to respond to discussions between the UK Government and the

:17:40. > :17:45.Welsh government. Turning to amendments to schedule one more

:17:46. > :17:48.widely we have benefited willingness to devolve significant further

:17:49. > :17:52.powers to the Assembly were a clear rationale can be made for doing so.

:17:53. > :17:56.This removes the reservation relating to teachers' pay and

:17:57. > :18:00.conditions. This was something that I was keen to devolve from the

:18:01. > :18:06.outset, that recognise concerns issued with colleagues on all sides

:18:07. > :18:10.of the House as well as teachers' unions. Following constructive

:18:11. > :18:14.engagement with the First Minister and discussions between officials,

:18:15. > :18:18.we are pleased that we came to the same conclusion, that education is a

:18:19. > :18:23.devolved matter, it makes more sense for the Assembly and Welsh ministers

:18:24. > :18:28.to sign -- set the pay and conditions of teachers in Wales, in

:18:29. > :18:33.light of the greater divergences between the education model in

:18:34. > :18:38.England and the one in Wales. It is sensible to devolve teachers' terms

:18:39. > :18:42.and conditions. We are devolving the community infrastructure Levy in

:18:43. > :18:46.Wales amendment 72, that was a priority for the Welsh government

:18:47. > :18:50.and has been for a number of years. Would listen to the case that they

:18:51. > :18:57.have made and we are delivering on demand that the Welsh government has

:18:58. > :19:00.made. We're happy to respond and constructively in due course.

:19:01. > :19:05.Finally, Madam Diede Speaker, amendments 36 and 52 devolve

:19:06. > :19:11.legislative and exit the competence to the Assembly to regulate the

:19:12. > :19:15.number of high stake gaming machines in new betting premises licences in

:19:16. > :19:18.Wales. This is an issue that the honourable lady the member for

:19:19. > :19:22.Swansea East showed particular interest and passion in during the

:19:23. > :19:29.early stages of this scripting of the bill. The commission made no

:19:30. > :19:32.recommendation on the depletion of betting, gaming and lotteries but we

:19:33. > :19:38.agreed as part of the St David's Day process in that constructive

:19:39. > :19:41.dialogue to consider... In a moment, to consider non-fiscal

:19:42. > :19:43.recommendations made by the Smith Commission that would be appropriate

:19:44. > :19:50.to take forward in Wales. I will give way. May I, too, place on

:19:51. > :19:54.record my congratulations to the member for Swansea East for her

:19:55. > :19:58.campaign on this issue? With the Secretary of State agree that when

:19:59. > :20:01.we see statistics that an average of ?3000 a day is being staked on these

:20:02. > :20:08.machines, it's important that these powers are devolved and that

:20:09. > :20:14.regulation takes place. I come to the specific point because there's a

:20:15. > :20:16.review being conducted by the Department for Culture, Media and

:20:17. > :20:21.Sport which will be able to answer some of the specific issues raised,

:20:22. > :20:23.but for the moment I will stick to explaining the rationale behind the

:20:24. > :20:30.amendments relating to fixed odds betting terminals. One of the

:20:31. > :20:34.proposals was that the powers should be devolved to stop the

:20:35. > :20:37.proliferation of the so-called fixed odds betting terminals and we

:20:38. > :20:42.concluded that these powers should be devolved in Wales as they are in

:20:43. > :20:47.Scotland, that came out of the Smith Commission. Amendment 36 and 52

:20:48. > :20:51.ensured that the bill mirrored the provisions of the Scotland Act 2016

:20:52. > :20:58.in respect of high-stakes gaming machines. This applies to sub

:20:59. > :21:02.category B two gaming machines and will address public concerns in

:21:03. > :21:07.Wales regarding the proliferation of these machines. Of course these

:21:08. > :21:11.machines were established as part, regulated by the gambling Act of

:21:12. > :21:15.2005 that was introduced when the party opposite was in power. The

:21:16. > :21:20.amendments tabled by the opposition propose going much further than what

:21:21. > :21:23.is already devolved in the Scotland Act by extending this provision to

:21:24. > :21:30.all existing gaming machines with a stake of more than ?2, and devolving

:21:31. > :21:34.powers over existing licenses. We did not believe that was

:21:35. > :21:37.appropriate, because, as I mentioned a moment ago, the government has

:21:38. > :21:43.already announced a review of the issue, because you recognise the

:21:44. > :21:46.flaws in the 2005 Act and, as a result we are carrying out a

:21:47. > :21:51.thorough process that will look at all aspects of gaming machine

:21:52. > :21:54.regulation. This will include examining the categorisation,

:21:55. > :21:58.maximum stakes and prizes, location, number and the impact they have on

:21:59. > :22:03.players and the communities in relation to problem gambling and

:22:04. > :22:08.crime amongst other things. All these factors are potentially

:22:09. > :22:13.relevant and interrelated. These powers, the powers we have agreed to

:22:14. > :22:16.devolve, are intended to enable the Welsh government and the Assembly to

:22:17. > :22:20.take action to prevent the proliferation of fixed odds betting

:22:21. > :22:23.terminals. Madam Deputy Speaker, the review we have announced is the

:22:24. > :22:27.appropriate mechanism to consider all these issues in a more holistic

:22:28. > :22:32.way and I would encourage the members opposite to withdraw their

:22:33. > :22:36.amendment. If they do not, I will seek to do my best to respond to

:22:37. > :22:42.some of the issues of concern. I would urge members to support the

:22:43. > :22:46.Lords Amendments within this. The question is that this House agrees

:22:47. > :22:53.with the Lords in their amendment one, Susan Wyn Jones. I wish to

:22:54. > :22:58.speak in favour of the Labour amendment, limiting the amount of

:22:59. > :23:06.staked on the fixed odds betting terminals to ?2. I think this is

:23:07. > :23:12.actually very important. I welcome the review that the DCMS is carrying

:23:13. > :23:19.out in This Place and I welcome the move to devolve this measure to the

:23:20. > :23:23.Welsh Assembly. But the reason I support that, very much in line with

:23:24. > :23:26.all the work My Honourable Friend, the member for Swansea East has done

:23:27. > :23:31.in this, is that we could be in the ridiculous position, we all know

:23:32. > :23:33.apart from certain advocates for the betting industry that what is

:23:34. > :23:39.happening with fixed odds betting terminals is deeply concerning.

:23:40. > :23:44.Figures of round about ?1.7 billion are among those quoted now as

:23:45. > :23:48.profits made on these horrible machines, that are causing so much

:23:49. > :23:55.devastation in our communities. We all know something has to be done,

:23:56. > :23:58.and fairly urgently, on this matter. What I actually fear is that we

:23:59. > :24:05.could have a situation where this House, collectively, could vote for

:24:06. > :24:10.a stake below 10% on these machines and, yet, if we pass this measure as

:24:11. > :24:17.it stands, all that would happen in Wales would be that it would go down

:24:18. > :24:23.to a maximum, a minimum stake of ?10. Now that, to me, does not seem

:24:24. > :24:27.right. In fact, let's think of it in this way. We could have a situation

:24:28. > :24:33.where, collectively, this House votes for it in England and Wales to

:24:34. > :24:39.be ?2, but, once it is devolved in Wales, the Welsh government would be

:24:40. > :24:42.limited to ?10, but then this House could not vote for a lower stake

:24:43. > :24:47.here because the government would say it's English Votes for English

:24:48. > :24:51.Laws, so we would be banned to bringing it. What we're asking for

:24:52. > :24:55.is something very pragmatic, something that would give the right

:24:56. > :24:58.to decide on that level of steak and something that would benefit

:24:59. > :25:05.communities, because let's make no bones about it, those machines and

:25:06. > :25:10.what is happening in the gambling industry is hitting our poorest

:25:11. > :25:14.communities the most. We see it in our industrial villages and towns,

:25:15. > :25:18.we see the impact of it. And let me say once and for all to the harder

:25:19. > :25:25.elements of the gambling industry, some of which will be e-mailing us

:25:26. > :25:30.later, the nonsense of what is happening with fixed odds betting

:25:31. > :25:34.terminals has to come to an end. Do not think that you can intimidate us

:25:35. > :25:38.and those in the communities who are fed up of the whole bat you have on

:25:39. > :25:42.them. It is time to Act firmly and it is time that we give the Welsh

:25:43. > :25:44.government full devolution on this government full devolution on this

:25:45. > :25:49.and it is time that we lower the staked a possible until the Welsh

:25:50. > :25:56.government has the power to do it, and hopefully, This Place will, too.

:25:57. > :26:00.I beg to move the amendments made in my name and those of my Right

:26:01. > :26:05.Honourable Friends. As Secretary of State has pointed out the ra a large

:26:06. > :26:09.number of amendments on important areas but given the limited time I

:26:10. > :26:15.want to focus on Lords Amendment 36 and are amendments to that. We

:26:16. > :26:19.welcome the government's Lords Amendment 36 as we did in the Other

:26:20. > :26:23.Place but we want to go further and we have the opportunity today to

:26:24. > :26:27.achieve that. The main contention we have with the government amendment

:26:28. > :26:30.is that it limits the powers being devolved to the Welsh Assembly to

:26:31. > :26:34.regulate fixed odds betting terminals. That ability to regulate

:26:35. > :26:40.will only apply to machines licensed after the bill becomes law and which

:26:41. > :26:43.have a stake of ?10 and above. The campaign for fair gambling have been

:26:44. > :26:48.campaigning on this issue for some time and have been an invaluable

:26:49. > :26:52.source of help on this amendment and I would like to put on record my

:26:53. > :26:58.thanks to them. I would also like to thank the All Party Parliamentary

:26:59. > :27:01.Group on betting terminals so ably chaired by my Noble Friend, the

:27:02. > :27:04.member for Swansea East. They have completed their inquiry into these

:27:05. > :27:08.machines and they are due to publish their report very shortly.

:27:09. > :27:14.Both groups are clear that the ?10 threshold set by the government

:27:15. > :27:20.amendment is still too high. They are the only machines on the High

:27:21. > :27:24.Street, fixed odds betting terminals are the only machines with stakes of

:27:25. > :27:31.?2 and above, and all of the machines in pubs, arcades and bingo

:27:32. > :27:34.halls are capped at ?2 and and air. The first part of the amendment

:27:35. > :27:40.seeks to allow devolved regulations of machines with stakes of ?2 and

:27:41. > :27:45.above, rather than ?10, and only fixed odd betting terminals will be

:27:46. > :27:48.covered by this. Any fears that the Welsh Assembly would be overstepping

:27:49. > :27:54.devolution or limits would be confounded. In a similar spirit,

:27:55. > :27:58.part B would ensure the assembly has the power to regulate all current

:27:59. > :28:02.and future licensed fixed odds betting terminals at the point it

:28:03. > :28:06.becomes law. This is important because there are an estimated 1500

:28:07. > :28:11.terminals in Wales. According to the latest figures, covering 2015, ?50

:28:12. > :28:17.million was staked and lost on them during that period. The financial

:28:18. > :28:20.and social problems, the harm that these machines cause in communities

:28:21. > :28:24.across Wales is well known. Having the ability to regulate terminals

:28:25. > :28:27.already in place ensures that the Welsh Assembly does not have its

:28:28. > :28:34.hands tied in seeking to deal with the issue. The Secretary of State

:28:35. > :28:40.mentioned in the first part of his remarks about how they devolved

:28:41. > :28:45.teacher paid to the Welsh government, because education is

:28:46. > :28:51.devolved. We are in a situation where fixed odds terminals are being

:28:52. > :28:56.devolved. It simply means we will be coming back in a nerd Wil Wales Bill

:28:57. > :28:58.to reintroduce those relations. If the government concedes on this

:28:59. > :29:06.point, would my honourable friend simply agree that it would just mean

:29:07. > :29:13.we have these proposals in place now? It means we could lead the way

:29:14. > :29:17.in Wales. The Secretary of State is aware of the social and economic

:29:18. > :29:20.problems these machines cause. Although the DC MS review is going

:29:21. > :29:24.to be underway, there is an opportunity here for stuff we know

:29:25. > :29:31.what the problem is and we know we could deal with it right now. I know

:29:32. > :29:39.the Minister has said the government's attention is simply to

:29:40. > :29:41.match the powers given to Scotland. Devolution arrangements across

:29:42. > :29:46.Wales, England and Scotland are already different. They are not in

:29:47. > :29:49.alignment. There is no reason why the Government could not accept this

:29:50. > :29:53.amendment is today and agree to the lowering of the state and the

:29:54. > :29:58.application of that state through all current and future machines.

:29:59. > :30:02.Anything less than that would be both a bureaucratic nightmare for

:30:03. > :30:07.the assembly, and only half a solution to an already accepted

:30:08. > :30:09.problem. I believe it is unacceptable for the Government to

:30:10. > :30:13.refuse to give the Wales assembly the full powers it needs to seek to

:30:14. > :30:17.deal with this, simply because Scotland doesn't yet have those

:30:18. > :30:22.powers. Madam Deputy Speaker, there has been a 50% increase in betting

:30:23. > :30:30.shops in Welsh town centres since 2004, but this overall statistic

:30:31. > :30:35.masks the true story. The Campaign For Gambling Fairly shared some

:30:36. > :30:39.research with me that shows what many on the bench is already know,

:30:40. > :30:43.that there are four times more betting shops in areas of high

:30:44. > :30:46.unemployment. These machines are deliberately placed so people in

:30:47. > :30:50.areas least able to cope with the drain on their finances that problem

:30:51. > :30:55.gambling can cause are subjected to the highest exposure of machines

:30:56. > :31:00.most likely to cause it. These terminals allow players to stake up

:31:01. > :31:06.to ?100 every 20 seconds, which is why, despite only 3% to 4% of the

:31:07. > :31:13.population using fixed odds betting terminals, these players account for

:31:14. > :31:15.66% of all UK gaming machine losses. Already massively profitable

:31:16. > :31:20.bookmaking companies benefit even more from those losses, to the tune,

:31:21. > :31:25.as my honourable friend has already pointed out, of ?1.7 billion on

:31:26. > :31:30.those terminals just in the last year across the UK. It is not just

:31:31. > :31:35.those on the opposition benches that think this is a problem. Polling

:31:36. > :31:42.done for the campaign showed that 82% shop customers perceive fixed

:31:43. > :31:45.odds betting terminals as an addictive activity, with 32% of

:31:46. > :31:48.these borrowing cash in order to feed their habit and 72% had

:31:49. > :31:53.witnessed violent behaviour emanating from people playing on

:31:54. > :31:56.these machines. Other research has backed this up and consistently

:31:57. > :32:00.shown that fixed odds betting terminals are one of the most

:32:01. > :32:08.addictive unproblematic forms of gambling. One study published in an

:32:09. > :32:12.article from the Harvard Medical School found the terminals had a

:32:13. > :32:15.fourfold correlation with problem gambling, higher than any other

:32:16. > :32:20.gambling product available in the UK. The machines are already causing

:32:21. > :32:22.real and lasting damage to some gamblers and exacerbating problem

:32:23. > :32:28.gambling more than any other form of betting. If the UK Government will

:32:29. > :32:32.not tackle this issue now, they need to give the Welsh Assembly the power

:32:33. > :32:35.so that it can do it instead in Wales. The power to regulate

:32:36. > :32:40.existing machines is crucial to tackling the harm they are causing

:32:41. > :32:44.to communities across Wales and our amendments help to ensure that all

:32:45. > :32:48.such machines can be regulated. I urge the Minister to follow his own

:32:49. > :32:52.logic, to be innovative and accept our amendments. If he does not, I am

:32:53. > :32:59.ready to test the will of the house, certainly on our first Amendment.

:33:00. > :33:04.I welcome this amendment and the consideration that honourable

:33:05. > :33:07.colleagues in the other place have given to this. I do declare an

:33:08. > :33:17.interest as chair of the All-party Group On Fixed Odds Betting

:33:18. > :33:20.Terminals Norma,. I have campaigned on this issue for over a year and

:33:21. > :33:27.sometimes feel it has taken over my life. There are 35,000 fixed odds

:33:28. > :33:34.betting terminals in betting shops across the UK. These casino style

:33:35. > :33:37.games are in low supervision environments and are easily

:33:38. > :33:42.accessible to those most vulnerable to gambling related harm. There is a

:33:43. > :33:47.growing problem with them in local communities in Wales. According to

:33:48. > :33:53.the latest statistics, over ?50 million was lost on the machines in

:33:54. > :33:57.2015. While the amendment is welcome, in my opinion the bill does

:33:58. > :34:00.not go far enough. The Welsh Assembly should have powers to

:34:01. > :34:05.devolved to it and allow local authorities to deal with existing

:34:06. > :34:09.clusters of betting shops in deprived areas. The most effective

:34:10. > :34:17.way of doing this is to reduce the maximum stake to ?2. This power is

:34:18. > :34:22.not included in the Wales Bill. The call for a reduction in the maximum

:34:23. > :34:26.stake is growing, with over 93 local councils across the UK, led by new

:34:27. > :34:34.council, having petitioned the Government to reduce the stake to

:34:35. > :34:38.?2. We have included an inquiry into these machines and found that,

:34:39. > :34:46.beyond reasonable doubt, the maximum stake should be reduced to ?2 on a

:34:47. > :34:50.precautionary basis, in line with the objectives of the gambling

:34:51. > :34:54.commission. The full findings of the report are due to be published

:34:55. > :34:59.shortly. We have been encouraged by the DCMS ministers willing as to

:35:00. > :35:02.work with them on this issue. I very much hope they will respond

:35:03. > :35:09.positively and reduce the stake, and properly regulated FOBTs, and I

:35:10. > :35:13.eagerly await the result of the current review. These machines are

:35:14. > :35:19.directly linked to problem gambling in four out of five FOBT gamblers,

:35:20. > :35:26.exhibiting problem gambling behaviour at stakes in excess of ?13

:35:27. > :35:35.a spin. That is compared to one in five at stakes of ?2 and under.

:35:36. > :35:39.FOBTs are causing significant economic and social problems. In

:35:40. > :35:45.particular, they lead to increasing incidence of money laundering in

:35:46. > :35:47.bookmakers, as the activity is largely unsupervised and is

:35:48. > :35:52.therefore relatively easy for fraudsters to clean their money.

:35:53. > :36:00.More problems with payday loans, as players take out loans to sustain

:36:01. > :36:05.their FOBT usage. Increasing crime levels. Betting shops now account

:36:06. > :36:12.for 97% of all police call-outs to gambling venues. After September

:36:13. > :36:18.2014, there was also a 20% increase in police call-outs to betting

:36:19. > :36:23.shops. The clustering of betting shops in Britain's high streets,

:36:24. > :36:26.there is a 43% increase in betting shops located in towns and city

:36:27. > :36:31.centres, which is destroying the health and vibrancy of our high

:36:32. > :36:35.streets. The most effective way to limit the harm for the machines is

:36:36. > :36:41.to reduce the stake, which can be gambled currently at ?100. A

:36:42. > :36:46.substantially lower stake would bring FOBTs into line with machines

:36:47. > :36:50.in the low supervision environments like adult gaming centres and bingo

:36:51. > :36:55.halls. The gambling Commission themselves said that if they were

:36:56. > :37:00.staking levels that were now being set, they would strongly advise

:37:01. > :37:05.against the ?100 stake on a precautionary basis. A lower stake

:37:06. > :37:10.of ?2 is the level that the previous government said would bring adequate

:37:11. > :37:13.public protection. I would encourage the Government to support this

:37:14. > :37:20.amendment to devolved powers to Wales and to allow local communities

:37:21. > :37:25.to tackle the problems caused by FOBTs. It would be a proactive move

:37:26. > :37:29.to recognise the danger of the machines. It would establish good

:37:30. > :37:35.practice to protect communities from the dangers of these addictive

:37:36. > :37:39.machines, and it would be a positive step to ensuring that, as a society,

:37:40. > :37:50.we are taking our moral responsibility seriously.

:37:51. > :38:03.It is a very wide-ranging group, of course, some, I regret to say,

:38:04. > :38:08.resulted in my party watering the bill down in National Assembly. Time

:38:09. > :38:13.is limited, but I will focus on key amendments salient to my colleague's

:38:14. > :38:18.decision-making. The Government has conceded on certain issues and I

:38:19. > :38:23.commend them for this. This includes areas where Plaid Cymru has put

:38:24. > :38:28.pressure on the Government in both places. This should be noted.

:38:29. > :38:37.Amendment 73 devolves compulsory purchase, as referred to earlier,

:38:38. > :38:42.and we previously give input on that subject, meaning that projects will

:38:43. > :38:46.go ahead. These are only small concessions, and a skirt around more

:38:47. > :38:51.substantive policy areas that could make a difference. Amendment 48, the

:38:52. > :38:56.clause creating a statutory office for the President of tribunal is,

:38:57. > :39:01.already devolved, this is a welcome move on a practical level, but it

:39:02. > :39:04.does little to satisfy those of us, including the Welsh government, I

:39:05. > :39:12.might say, that have been calling for a separate legal jurisdiction.

:39:13. > :39:19.Without a strong and definitive legal jurisdiction of our own,

:39:20. > :39:22.overseeing the challenges that we all face when picking European law,

:39:23. > :39:25.the appeal bill will make it even more difficult. I would go as far as

:39:26. > :39:29.to say that the whole bill has rather been overtaken by Brexit,

:39:30. > :39:33.leaving constitutional lawyers and academics, even people of the Welsh

:39:34. > :39:39.Tories agree with this point, that the constitutional future of the

:39:40. > :39:43.British states are in flux. There are many opportunities and

:39:44. > :39:47.possibilities for both sides, for those championed evolution, such as

:39:48. > :39:51.ourselves, and for those sceptical. Famously, devolution is a process,

:39:52. > :39:56.not an event. We should be clear about the dangers of substantial

:39:57. > :40:01.rollback. This brings me to the main focus of my speech in relation to a

:40:02. > :40:06.series of government amendments, alterations on amendment three,

:40:07. > :40:11.which will give Wales' public authorities a different name,

:40:12. > :40:16.devolved Welsh authorities. This wording clarifies what constitutes a

:40:17. > :40:20.devolved public authority. While the amendment in isolation is not a

:40:21. > :40:23.concern, it does allude to a more worrying aspect of the bill, in

:40:24. > :40:31.which there are substantial rollback. Throughout the scrutiny of

:40:32. > :40:35.the bill we have tabled amendments about the potential effect on the

:40:36. > :40:38.National Assembly's power to legislate powers pertaining to the

:40:39. > :40:42.Welsh line which. The effect of schedule two of the bill is that

:40:43. > :40:45.when the assembly wishes to legislate for the Welsh language, it

:40:46. > :40:53.will require the consent of a UK minister. Another ministerial

:40:54. > :40:58.consent is required only when imposing Welsh language functions on

:40:59. > :41:01.ministers of the Crown. Ministers in both houses have confirmed that if a

:41:02. > :41:06.future Welsh line which measure was to be proposed, it would no longer

:41:07. > :41:09.be applicable to many more reserved authorities, such as HMRC, the Crown

:41:10. > :41:14.Prosecution Service. Consent would be required for the list of devolved

:41:15. > :41:20.public authorities, which are contained in the amendments today.

:41:21. > :41:23.The Minister's words offered no reassurance of justification as to

:41:24. > :41:29.why this bill should include such a regressive step. The National

:41:30. > :41:33.Assembly research service has produced a briefing paper confirming

:41:34. > :41:36.fears, outlining another bill, as it currently understands, and there

:41:37. > :41:42.will be a loss of legislative power relating to the Welsh language. In

:41:43. > :41:45.the other place, the noble Lord agreed this would be true. He

:41:46. > :41:53.justified the government's position by stating that amendments we have

:41:54. > :41:56.tabled to rollback, it would cut across one of the underlying core

:41:57. > :41:59.principles of the bill and the assembly should not be able to

:42:00. > :42:04.impose burdens on non-devolved bodies without agreement. To add a

:42:05. > :42:08.specific exception to the consent process for the Welsh language would

:42:09. > :42:14.undermine that principle. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill does

:42:15. > :42:19.indeed take powers away from the National Assembly. Any exception for

:42:20. > :42:24.the Welsh language would undermine UK sovereignty. I referred earlier

:42:25. > :42:26.in my speech to the dangers of reverse devolution agenda,

:42:27. > :42:32.post-Brexit. It seems as though this is the reality we are facing today.

:42:33. > :42:36.Unfortunately, this is not the only example of significant rollbacks in

:42:37. > :42:41.this bill, some of the measures in it have been the subject of damning

:42:42. > :42:47.criticism and scrutiny. As to any assembly act deemed ancillary for

:42:48. > :42:52.any of the revelations, of which there are in excess of 200, the UK

:42:53. > :42:56.Government would be entitled to overrule the assembly. The Plaid

:42:57. > :42:59.Cymru group voted quite clearly against the legislative consent

:43:00. > :43:04.motion for the simple reason that powers are being clawed back. The

:43:05. > :43:10.legislative powers of the assembly were endorsed by a measure of 2-1 in

:43:11. > :43:12.the referendum, in 2011 and the powers implicit in that boat are now

:43:13. > :43:31.being retracted. We tabled amendments at several

:43:32. > :43:34.stages in the bill to include the word normally so that there would be

:43:35. > :43:42.no doubt as to whether the government would grant the Assembly

:43:43. > :43:49.rapidly after this historic Supreme Court ruling today. To finish, I

:43:50. > :43:56.quote no less a person than the leader of the Welsh Tories in a

:43:57. > :44:01.radio interview on January 17, Mr Andrew Davies, who said this will be

:44:02. > :44:04.the last Wales Bill. Brexit will require devolution changes to be

:44:05. > :44:07.aligned with responsibilities. I can assure the House today that my party

:44:08. > :44:11.will be doing everything in its power to reverse the rollbacks, to

:44:12. > :44:15.ensure that both ministers are taken seriously over exit and to build a

:44:16. > :44:23.truly lasting devolution settlement for Wales. -- over Brexit. I'm

:44:24. > :44:30.grateful to all members that have contributed to the scrutiny of... I

:44:31. > :44:39.shall respond to the points that have been made. Madam Deputy

:44:40. > :44:43.Speaker, I would like to thank all members who have contributed in this

:44:44. > :44:47.section for purposes of the bill as it is passed through this House and

:44:48. > :44:50.the Other Place. I must say I'm disappointed that the opposition are

:44:51. > :44:55.looking to divide on the amendments we brought forward from the Other

:44:56. > :45:00.Place on fixed odds betting terminals. These amendments were

:45:01. > :45:06.responding positively to calls made from colleagues on both sides of the

:45:07. > :45:10.House and from the Welsh government. The Smith Commission made no

:45:11. > :45:12.recommendations in this area of having considered the Smith

:45:13. > :45:17.commission recommendations for Scotland, we believe it is right to

:45:18. > :45:20.put the Assembly on the same footing as a Scottish Parliament and allow

:45:21. > :45:27.them to legislate on the proliferation of fixed odds betting

:45:28. > :45:32.terminals in Wales. There are conservative members of the Welsh

:45:33. > :45:37.Assembly that actually oppose what the government is proposing and have

:45:38. > :45:40.supported the member for Swansea East, including Barry Miller, from

:45:41. > :45:45.North Wales. As he consulted with his Assembly Members on this point

:45:46. > :45:53.as macro the honourable member makes a relevant point and we do take the

:45:54. > :45:57.issue of Rob gambling seriously. As I have already mentioned, we are

:45:58. > :46:02.committed to looking at all aspects of gaming machines -- problem

:46:03. > :46:08.gambling. The regulation of fixed odds betting terminals is covered

:46:09. > :46:13.under the gambling Act, 2005, and we recognise that flaws exist in the

:46:14. > :46:17.current regulatory arrangements. They were introduced by the party

:46:18. > :46:23.opposite and it is time that that was reviewed. And the Secretary of

:46:24. > :46:26.State for Culture, Media and Sport State for Culture, Media and Sport

:46:27. > :46:30.is doing that. We hope that honourable members will vote against

:46:31. > :46:34.amendments tabled by the opposition and vote to support the government

:46:35. > :46:40.amendments that we have brought forward. Madam Deputy Speaker, in

:46:41. > :46:43.closing, it was suggested by the honourable member for Newport West

:46:44. > :46:49.that this was a half-hearted approach towards devolution. In the

:46:50. > :46:54.positive spirit that this bill has progressed through both houses in,

:46:55. > :46:59.can I remind him that legislative competence orders were in place when

:47:00. > :47:06.we came into power in 2010 when we started this process, that there was

:47:07. > :47:12.a conferred model in place. This now introduces a reserved model. We have

:47:13. > :47:15.a needs -based funding settlement in place, something that has been

:47:16. > :47:20.called on for decades were evolving significant tax powers, we've

:47:21. > :47:23.removed the water intervention powers and extended the powers of

:47:24. > :47:27.the Welsh government in a significant range of areas such as

:47:28. > :47:32.energy, fracking, elections and running their own affairs. There's a

:47:33. > :47:36.host of positive steps that have taken place here. I would also say

:47:37. > :47:43.that we all know that members in the Other Place rightly pay very close

:47:44. > :47:48.scrutiny to matters of constitutional importance and bills

:47:49. > :47:51.of this type. The government was not defeated despite it being in a

:47:52. > :47:55.minority in the Other Place. The government was not defeated with

:47:56. > :48:00.this bill. So I therefore hope that members on all sides of the House

:48:01. > :48:04.and all members of the opposition would recognise the significance of

:48:05. > :48:08.this bill and, once and for all, welcome it because of the positive

:48:09. > :48:13.steps it makes in bringing about a settlement of devolution that will

:48:14. > :48:17.last for a long time to come. The question is that this House agrees

:48:18. > :48:21.with the Lord is an amendment one, As many as are of that opinion say

:48:22. > :48:28.Aye, contrary No. I think the Ayes have it, the Ayes have it. With

:48:29. > :48:33.lead, we will take Lords Amendments to - eight, 11-27, 30 3-35 together

:48:34. > :48:39.and for the Minister to move formally to agree those amendments.

:48:40. > :48:44.The question is that this House agrees with the laws and although

:48:45. > :48:47.they are remaining amendments, As many as are of that opinion say Aye,

:48:48. > :48:55.contrary No. I think the Ayes have it, The Ayes have it. I call Jill

:48:56. > :49:00.Stevens to move amendment 36th formers -- formally. The question is

:49:01. > :49:02.that the amendment be made, As many as are of that opinion say Aye,

:49:03. > :49:52.contrary No. Division, clear the lobbies.

:49:53. > :50:02.That the amendment be made, As many as are of that opinion say Aye,

:50:03. > :50:05.contrary No. Tellers for the Ayes Vicky Foxcroft and Jeff Smith,

:50:06. > :50:06.tellers for the Noes, Steve Bryant and Andrew Griffiths. Thank you very

:50:07. > :57:20.much. Order. The ayes to the right, 170.

:57:21. > :02:51.The noes to the left, 281. The noes have it, the noes habit.

:02:52. > :03:01.Unlock. We will take all the remain... Not again! Sorry. Did you

:03:02. > :03:06.give me that? Minister to move to agree to the amendment 36, formerly.

:03:07. > :03:17.The question is that the house agrees with the amendment 36, as

:03:18. > :03:22.many of that opinion say aye? I think the ayes have it. With leave,

:03:23. > :03:25.we will take all of the remaining amendments together. I call the

:03:26. > :03:29.Minister to formally agree to all of the remaining amendments. The

:03:30. > :03:37.question is that the house agrees with the Lords on all remaining

:03:38. > :03:42.Arminians. -- amendments. I think the ayes have it. We now come to

:03:43. > :03:56.motion number five on the charter for budget responsibility. I called

:03:57. > :04:01.the Chancellor to move the motion. I beg to move that the Charter For

:04:02. > :04:07.Budget Responsibility be approved. This debate is not about the

:04:08. > :04:10.technicalities of fiscal policy. It is about our commitment to fiscal

:04:11. > :04:14.responsibility and delivering it in a way that is appropriate to our

:04:15. > :04:17.current circumstances. It is about supporting our economy through the

:04:18. > :04:21.uncertainty following the Brexit vote and preparing it is to take

:04:22. > :04:26.full advantage of the new opportunities ahead. It is about

:04:27. > :04:29.securing Britain's economic future, supporting working families and

:04:30. > :04:36.ensuring that our children are not burdened with debt but our

:04:37. > :04:41.generation chooses not to play. Butland Deputy Speaker, when my

:04:42. > :04:44.predecessor came into office in 2010, he inherited the highest

:04:45. > :04:53.budget deficit in post-war history. Government borrowing was ?1 in every

:04:54. > :04:58.?4 it spent. Debt had almost doubled since 2005-6. Unemployment was up 8%

:04:59. > :05:06.and the UK percentage increase in national debt between 2007-10 was

:05:07. > :05:10.the biggest in the G7. The 2008 recession showed the price that is

:05:11. > :05:15.paid for seven years of irresponsible fiscal policy. It

:05:16. > :05:18.demonstrated once again that it is always the poorest in our country

:05:19. > :05:25.that suffer the most when the economy crashes and unemployment

:05:26. > :05:30.rises. So, we remain resolute in our determination to return the public

:05:31. > :05:35.finances to balance, to get debt falling and to pay our way in the

:05:36. > :05:38.world. But we have to do so in a way that protects our economy and our

:05:39. > :05:47.living standards in challenging times. At the same time, we must

:05:48. > :05:50.maintain our focus on the long-term challenge of productivity, a

:05:51. > :05:56.challenge which we must rise to if we are to seize the opportunities

:05:57. > :06:00.that lie ahead for Britain. Madam Deputy Speaker, in proposing this

:06:01. > :06:05.charter, I'd build on the work of my right honourable friend, the member

:06:06. > :06:09.for Tatton. His plans, action by the hard work of millions of people up

:06:10. > :06:13.and down the United Kingdom, have turned our economy around. The

:06:14. > :06:18.employment rate is at a record high, unemployment is at an 11 year low,

:06:19. > :06:25.income inequality is at its lowest level in 30 years. The OECD and the

:06:26. > :06:30.IMF expect the UK to have been the fastest-growing economy in the G7 in

:06:31. > :06:40.2016. The economic plan that has delivered jobs and growth has also

:06:41. > :06:49.reduced the deficit from 10.1% to 4% of GDP, so in 2016 we borrowed ?1

:06:50. > :06:52.for every ?10 that we spend. These are significant achievements, but we

:06:53. > :07:00.have further to go. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the medium term, we are

:07:01. > :07:03.well placed to take advantage of the opportunities that leaving the

:07:04. > :07:07.European Union presents. But at the time of the Autumn Statement, the

:07:08. > :07:11.OBR judged that in the near term uncertainty about the new trading

:07:12. > :07:17.relationship with the EU, coupled with the impact of higher inflation,

:07:18. > :07:22.driven by the depreciation of the pound, is likely to reduce the rate

:07:23. > :07:25.of economic growth relative to previous expectations. I will give

:07:26. > :07:30.way to the honourable gentleman. I do thank the Chancellor. He makes an

:07:31. > :07:36.interesting case about the strength of the economy. Does he not actually

:07:37. > :07:41.associate something of that growth in the economy with the fact that

:07:42. > :07:45.the government borrowed and invested in the economy, and that borrowing

:07:46. > :07:52.is therefore not necessarily a bad thing in itself? Well, Mr Speaker, I

:07:53. > :07:55.think my track record of one fiscal event answers the honourable

:07:56. > :08:02.gentleman's question. Clearly, I made the decision in November to

:08:03. > :08:10.borrow a discretionary ?23 billion to invest in targeted areas that

:08:11. > :08:16.were specifically focused on raising productivity levels in the UK

:08:17. > :08:21.economy. Of course, the answer to the question can borrowing to invest

:08:22. > :08:24.ever be sensible, the answer is yes, if the circumstances are right, if

:08:25. > :08:30.it is a judicious amount of borrowing and is precisely targeted

:08:31. > :08:34.to achieve a purpose. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I will say... I will

:08:35. > :08:39.give way. I am most grateful to the Chancellor. It is a related point to

:08:40. > :08:41.that raised by the previous member. Does the Chancellor believes that

:08:42. > :08:45.the charter gives him enough flexibility to be able to address

:08:46. > :08:54.any economic issues that make, during the course of the parliament?

:08:55. > :08:57.As I shall explain in a moment, one of the purposes of the new fiscal

:08:58. > :09:03.rules proposed is to allow sufficient flexibility to deal with

:09:04. > :09:08.any unexpected and forecast shocks along the way during a period of

:09:09. > :09:17.more than usual uncertainty in the economy. This OBR judgment and

:09:18. > :09:23.Autumn Statement that I referred to implied ?84 billion of additional

:09:24. > :09:26.borrowing over the forecast horizon, although it should say that the OBR

:09:27. > :09:30.acknowledges a higher than usual degree of uncertainty in the

:09:31. > :09:35.forecast. At Autumn Statement, I had to make a forecast. I could have

:09:36. > :09:38.looked for further savings to maintain the trajectory of

:09:39. > :09:44.consolidation my predecessor set out. I judge this would not be a

:09:45. > :09:47.responsible way to support the economy in present circumstances.

:09:48. > :09:52.The Autumn Statement, I set out the new plan, a plan that offered fiscal

:09:53. > :10:00.had room, if needed, to deal with unforeseen, and forecasted economic

:10:01. > :10:04.shocks, and scope to raise productivity and lift real wages and

:10:05. > :10:07.living standards. Let me set out the principles that inform the fiscal

:10:08. > :10:13.rules I have placed before the house today. First, the public finances

:10:14. > :10:17.should be returned to balance at the earliest date that is compatible

:10:18. > :10:22.with the prudent management of the economy. I judge, in current

:10:23. > :10:27.circumstances, that will be in the next parliament, after our EU exit

:10:28. > :10:32.is complete. In the interim, I have committed to reducing the structural

:10:33. > :10:37.deficit to a low 2% of GDP by the end of this Parliament. Targeting a

:10:38. > :10:44.structural deficit means that I can let the public finances respond to

:10:45. > :10:51.any short-term fluctuations in the economy, through the so-called

:10:52. > :10:55.automatic stabilisers. The OBR forecasted at Autumn Statement 2016

:10:56. > :11:00.that I will meet this rule two years early. This leaves some headroom,

:11:01. > :11:05.about ?27 billion, for a discretionary response to any

:11:06. > :11:08.further shocks, should such a response be necessary. Second, I

:11:09. > :11:12.have committed to getting debt falling by the end of this

:11:13. > :11:18.Parliament and this will be the first time since the start of the

:11:19. > :11:24.century that debt has fallen. Again, the OBR forecast that debt will

:11:25. > :11:27.begin falling two years before the rule requires. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:11:28. > :11:32.delaying the return to balance until the next Parliament not only ensures

:11:33. > :11:36.we have fiscal had room to respond to shocks, but means the government

:11:37. > :11:41.has scope to invest to improve the UK's productivity, and the

:11:42. > :11:44.productivity gap is the biggest challenge facing the UK economy. It

:11:45. > :11:50.has been said many times before, but I will say it again, it takes

:11:51. > :11:56.workers in Germany less than four days to produce what we produce in

:11:57. > :12:02.five days. That means that many British workers work harder, longer

:12:03. > :12:04.hours, for lower pay than their counterparts and this has to change

:12:05. > :12:12.if we're going to build an economy that works for everyone.

:12:13. > :12:18.My right now the trend is absolutely right to point out the productivity

:12:19. > :12:22.gap but may I gently chide him by letting him know that the Nissan

:12:23. > :12:29.plant in Sunderland is second only to the planned in York, in Japan

:12:30. > :12:35.itself, the headquarters. -- in York will hammer. It is outside of Japan

:12:36. > :12:41.the most profitable and productive engineering plant in the Nissan

:12:42. > :12:44.Rogue. Always a pleasure to be gently chided by my honourable

:12:45. > :12:49.friend who is of course absolutely right and that is the conundrum

:12:50. > :12:53.about Britain's productivity. We have some of the most fantastically

:12:54. > :12:58.productive companies, businesses, indeed some of the most productive

:12:59. > :13:02.cities in the world but we also have some of the poorest examples of

:13:03. > :13:09.productivity performance. Working out how to spread across the economy

:13:10. > :13:13.best practice of productivity that we see in our economy so that all

:13:14. > :13:19.regions, all corners of our economy, all sectors of the economy can share

:13:20. > :13:24.in this productivity performance and thus can deliver the higher real

:13:25. > :13:28.wages and living standards that this implies, that is the challenge

:13:29. > :13:33.before us and I say again, it is the biggest challenge facing the UK

:13:34. > :13:37.economy but it is a challenge that successive governments have failed

:13:38. > :13:42.to do anything effective about. I gave way. I thank the right

:13:43. > :13:45.Honourable gentleman and I am certainly not in the mode of wanting

:13:46. > :13:50.to chide him for anything in particular but it is worth pointing

:13:51. > :13:54.out that putting the productivity issues into some context, it is also

:13:55. > :14:01.the case and has been the case during the time that he has been in

:14:02. > :14:03.office but just as Chancellor but since 2010 that our unappointed rate

:14:04. > :14:08.has been rather lower and that perhaps has been a factor in the per

:14:09. > :14:12.productivity that the UK economy has had relative to many of our European

:14:13. > :14:15.partners. The fact has been that this government or more importantly

:14:16. > :14:22.British business have that keeping employment rates had higher and

:14:23. > :14:25.higher than perhaps the very urgent improvements to productivity to its

:14:26. > :14:30.universe. My honourable who represents one of the most

:14:31. > :14:38.productive sub regions in the entire European Union is right of course,

:14:39. > :14:42.there is a perfectly respectable economic argument that as you

:14:43. > :14:47.increase participation in the labour force and bring more marginally

:14:48. > :14:51.productive workers into the labour force that it may have a depressing

:14:52. > :14:56.effect on labour productivity overall but I would say to my

:14:57. > :15:01.honourable friend that when we look at unemployment rates or employment

:15:02. > :15:09.participation rates in Germany and in the UK they are not so different

:15:10. > :15:14.and I do not think we can explain a 30% productivity performance gap by

:15:15. > :15:17.differences in levels of participation in the economy, indeed

:15:18. > :15:20.there is much debate among economists about what the cause of

:15:21. > :15:25.this productivity gap is and more generally what the cause of the

:15:26. > :15:27.generally pure productivity performance of the developed

:15:28. > :15:37.economies over the last few years has been. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:15:38. > :15:38.chose an Autumn Statement in 2016 to invest an additional ?23 billion

:15:39. > :15:43.through national productivity investment fund which aims to raise

:15:44. > :15:48.productivity, supports job creation and boost real wages and living

:15:49. > :15:53.standards. Every penny we spend from this fund will be used to boost

:15:54. > :16:00.economic infrastructure, research and development and housing, it will

:16:01. > :16:05.bring total investment in the areas to ?170 billion over the next five

:16:06. > :16:10.years and it means that gross public investment will be at least 4% of

:16:11. > :16:15.GDP for the rest of this Parliament, that is higher than in any period

:16:16. > :16:23.between 1983 and the great crash. I gave way. I'm grateful. I think he

:16:24. > :16:28.is right to place productivity at the centre of the economic problem

:16:29. > :16:30.and the productivity will be helpful in terms of infrastructure but one

:16:31. > :16:34.of the challenges is to get the corporate sector by investing which

:16:35. > :16:38.is one of the lessons from I honourable friend from Lichfield, a

:16:39. > :16:41.new factory with new technology and getting corporate to invest can also

:16:42. > :16:46.visit the productivity and I wonder what measures you looking to bring

:16:47. > :16:49.forward on that. My honourable friend is absolutely right, public

:16:50. > :16:54.investment in infrastructure is part of the story, I work and private

:16:55. > :17:00.investment in skills is part of the story, but increasing the stock of

:17:01. > :17:05.capital available for each worker to use is also part of the story of

:17:06. > :17:10.improving labour productivity and we know that business hates

:17:11. > :17:15.uncertainty, and the uncertainty that has been created by the Brexit

:17:16. > :17:18.vote has undoubtedly slowed down business investment decisions but

:17:19. > :17:21.the problem we're looking at in terms of productivity is not a

:17:22. > :17:25.short-term issue in response to the Brexit vote it is a much longer-term

:17:26. > :17:31.challenge in the UK economy, large companies in the UK are well

:17:32. > :17:36.capitalised, similar levels of capitalisation to double businesses

:17:37. > :17:39.elsewhere, but I would suggest that there is a challenge over the

:17:40. > :17:44.capitalisation of smaller businesses in the UK and access to long-term

:17:45. > :17:48.capital in the UK is one of the challenges that we need to address

:17:49. > :17:54.and the government undertook at the Autumn Statement to conduct a review

:17:55. > :17:57.into the availability of patient long-term capital for small

:17:58. > :18:03.businesses in the UK. Madam Deputy Speaker the money that I have just

:18:04. > :18:07.spoken about for public investment through the national productivity

:18:08. > :18:12.investment fund will provide the financial foundations for our

:18:13. > :18:18.industrial strategy, watched yesterday, which works to build on

:18:19. > :18:23.Britain's strengths. When BB clear, this charter is not consistent with

:18:24. > :18:28.the proposal from Labour which is to borrow at all times for anything

:18:29. > :18:32.which its terms investment. And if any of my honourable friend are

:18:33. > :18:37.thinking that this sounds horribly familiar that is probably because it

:18:38. > :18:41.is essentially Gordon Brown's called Golden rule, the very antithesis of

:18:42. > :18:45.budget responsibility and we almost where that got us. An unsustainable

:18:46. > :18:49.boom in government spending, which took that into the great recession

:18:50. > :18:55.with the largest structural deficit in the G seven. And Labour's big

:18:56. > :19:01.idea today is to repeat the same mistake all over again. This is yet

:19:02. > :19:05.another demonstration that the party opposite is not willing to learn

:19:06. > :19:10.from the past, and has no ideas for the future. What I propose is

:19:11. > :19:15.different. The national productivity investment fund will be targeted at

:19:16. > :19:21.economic infrastructure projects, housing and are indeed that will

:19:22. > :19:23.boost our national productivity and the National infrastructure

:19:24. > :19:27.commission will ensure that our future infrastructure decisions are

:19:28. > :19:35.based on independent robust analysis. We choose to invest in

:19:36. > :19:38.productivity, not just because doing so can transform the growth

:19:39. > :19:41.potential of our economy, but because it also contributes to

:19:42. > :19:47.addressing the social challenges that we face. Sustainable living

:19:48. > :19:53.standards for all parts of the country, and all sectors of the

:19:54. > :19:57.population depend on as improving productivity through better skills,

:19:58. > :20:03.opportunities to be trained, veteran infrastructure and better private

:20:04. > :20:06.investment. This investment is only possible because we are prepared to

:20:07. > :20:11.take tough decisions to maintain control of current spending. But as

:20:12. > :20:16.the old BR made clear last week in the fiscal sustainability report the

:20:17. > :20:22.end of the parliament is not the end of the challenge. That report

:20:23. > :20:27.contains some tough messages and some important early warnings, he or

:20:28. > :20:32.BR sets out clearly the significant challenges that we will face as our

:20:33. > :20:36.pop we're -- as our population continues to age over the next half

:20:37. > :20:41.century driven by increasing life expectancy, low fertility rates and

:20:42. > :20:43.the baby boom bubble retiring at the dependency ratio will go from 3.5

:20:44. > :20:53.people of working age supporting each retired the two just 2.2 in

:20:54. > :20:56.2066 and the old BR projects that these demographics will lead to

:20:57. > :21:00.increased spending in age-related areas like health and long-term care

:21:01. > :21:02.and the state pension and at the same demographic and economic trends

:21:03. > :21:11.mean that revenues will remain broadly stable. The old BR notes

:21:12. > :21:14.that we're not the only country facing these challenges and it notes

:21:15. > :21:18.that these figures are highly uncertain and should be seen as

:21:19. > :21:22.illustrative projections rather than precise forecasts but the potential

:21:23. > :21:28.impact on the public finances is very significant. On the assumption

:21:29. > :21:31.of no policy response, ie the assumption that government does

:21:32. > :21:37.nothing which I can promise you Madam Deputy Speaker will not be the

:21:38. > :21:42.case, it could rise to 234% of GDP by the end of the 50 year projection

:21:43. > :21:46.period with two thirds of the increase since the 2015 report being

:21:47. > :21:51.attributed to health care spending. Rather near term the report also

:21:52. > :21:55.shows that without further policy action we will not hit a surplus in

:21:56. > :22:01.the next Parliament and that is why at autumn 2016, the Autumn Statement

:22:02. > :22:04.2016I reiterated the tax and spending commitments for this

:22:05. > :22:08.Parliament set out in the 2015 spending review will be delivered

:22:09. > :22:14.and we will meet our manifesto commitments to protect the budgets

:22:15. > :22:16.and prioritise public services and I confirmed that the government will

:22:17. > :22:21.review public spending priorities and other commitments for the next

:22:22. > :22:26.Parliament in light of the evolving fiscal position at the next spending

:22:27. > :22:31.review. There will be more difficult choices to make, before we have

:22:32. > :22:36.completed the job of restoring the public finances to health. Madam

:22:37. > :22:43.Deputy Speaker controlling our welfare bill is a vital element of

:22:44. > :22:47.getting back to balance, a ?220 billion welfare represent a quarter

:22:48. > :22:51.of all government spending, and in the absence of an effective

:22:52. > :22:57.framework, spending on working age benefits tripled in real terms

:22:58. > :23:04.between 1980 and 2014 so that by 2014 each person in this country in

:23:05. > :23:09.work was contributing an average ?3000 per year to the cost of

:23:10. > :23:14.working age benefits. Action that has been taken since 2010 including

:23:15. > :23:17.the welfare cap in the previous charter has stabilised welfare

:23:18. > :23:22.spending and we will maintain that stability. The charter before the

:23:23. > :23:27.house today introduces a new medium-term welfare gap set to

:23:28. > :23:32.represent the current forecast of eligible welfare spend taking into

:23:33. > :23:38.account the policy changes made since the last budget. The cap will

:23:39. > :23:41.apply to welfare spending in 2021-22, and performance against

:23:42. > :23:49.this cap will be formally assessed by the OBR once in the year before,

:23:50. > :23:52.in 2020,-21. In the interim, progress towards the cap will be

:23:53. > :23:55.monitored by the government based on the tenth eMac's forecast on welfare

:23:56. > :24:00.spending, Madam Debbie Speaker shifting from an annual to medium

:24:01. > :24:05.format will avoid the government have a great short-term responses to

:24:06. > :24:07.changes in the welfare forecast while ensuring that welfare spending

:24:08. > :24:14.remained sustainable over the medium-term. Let me reiterate today

:24:15. > :24:19.to the house what I have said before, the government will deliver

:24:20. > :24:23.the overall portal of welfare savings already identified, but we

:24:24. > :24:28.have no plans to introduce further welfare savings in this Parliament

:24:29. > :24:33.beyond those already announced. I will give way. I am very grateful to

:24:34. > :24:36.my right honourable friend who has been generous in giving way to me.

:24:37. > :24:41.He quite rightly points out that Brexit creates uncertainty and

:24:42. > :24:47.business does not like uncertainty, but in relation to the welfare cap

:24:48. > :24:52.and overall welfare spending I wonder whether he can identify

:24:53. > :24:57.advantages in Brexit whether through tighter controls on certain types of

:24:58. > :25:04.immigration it might mean that the forecast might be lower than he

:25:05. > :25:09.anticipated. My honourable friend is right of course, we will have the

:25:10. > :25:14.ability to set our own immigration controls after leaving the European

:25:15. > :25:22.Union and the kid at the margin be an impact on welfare claims. I think

:25:23. > :25:27.the OBR would say although it is for them and not for me that it would

:25:28. > :25:31.probably be quite marginal, or the data suggests it would be a marginal

:25:32. > :25:34.effect. This government and the previous one have made significant

:25:35. > :25:39.progress in bringing this country back from the brink of financial

:25:40. > :25:44.collapse and fiscal ruin. The framework provided by our charter

:25:45. > :25:48.for budget responsibility played a major role. My predecessor aspired

:25:49. > :25:53.to eliminate the deficit entirely in this Parliament. In the Autumn

:25:54. > :25:58.Statement 2016 we revealed new fiscal pressures and the referendum

:25:59. > :26:01.result has created additional uncertainty in the economy. And when

:26:02. > :26:09.the facts change it is right to change plans. This charter strikes

:26:10. > :26:12.the right balance for our current circumstances. A credible plan to

:26:13. > :26:17.restore the public finances to health, and flexibility to support

:26:18. > :26:22.the economy in the short-term and scope to invest in productivity to

:26:23. > :26:26.boost real wages and living standards in the medium-term. A

:26:27. > :26:30.charter that will support Brexit, helping us to the short-term

:26:31. > :26:37.uncertainty and preparing us to seize the opportunities that lie

:26:38. > :26:41.beyond it. A charter that underpins our vision of an economy that works

:26:42. > :26:47.for everyone. And I commend it to the house. The question is the

:26:48. > :26:53.motion on the charter for budget responsibility as on the order

:26:54. > :26:57.paper. John McDonald. Madam Deputy Speaker. The motion in front of the

:26:58. > :27:01.house is rewriting the rule by which the government intends to manage its

:27:02. > :27:06.fiscal policies, as the Chancellor set out and the reason this

:27:07. > :27:10.rewriting is urgently needed is because the government's previous

:27:11. > :27:16.fiscal rule now lives in absolute tatters.

:27:17. > :27:24.As we argued at the time, when the amendment was introduced, it was a

:27:25. > :27:32.political device rather than a sound economic tool. In that version, the

:27:33. > :27:37.commitment to reach a budget surplus by the end of the Parliament, we

:27:38. > :27:42.argued was unachievable. That became obvious by the budget last year,

:27:43. > :27:45.when the previous Chancellor had to stretch budget validity to breaking

:27:46. > :27:48.point simply to claim the economy was still on course to achieve the

:27:49. > :27:54.target. This was well before the referendum. By the summer, the

:27:55. > :28:00.target had to be abandoned entirely. It was dropped because the surplus

:28:01. > :28:05.target was never about sound management. No credible economist

:28:06. > :28:10.could be found to support the surplus target because it had no

:28:11. > :28:13.plausible economic justification. The Treasury Select Committee

:28:14. > :28:19.rightly concluded that the old surplus rule was, and I quote, not

:28:20. > :28:24.credible in its current form. So, instead, the previous Chancellor

:28:25. > :28:33.made a political choice to impose the target. The austerity measures,

:28:34. > :28:37.the measures that the target required, there were not just cruel,

:28:38. > :28:41.there were unnecessary. Those measures, members will recall, have

:28:42. > :28:43.meant that people living with disabilities are suddenly were

:28:44. > :28:51.threatened with the loss of their independence. Those in work, doing

:28:52. > :28:57.the right thing, looking after their children, going to work, just

:28:58. > :29:05.attempting to get by, they were suddenly faced with serious cuts to

:29:06. > :29:12.their incomes. The tragedy here is that all those sacrifices, all that

:29:13. > :29:15.suffering, had been made in vain. The record of this government in

:29:16. > :29:19.office speaks for itself. At the same time as imposing grinding

:29:20. > :29:23.spending cuts, the government, as of this morning's figures, have added

:29:24. > :29:32.almost 700 billion to the national debt. This isn't just more than the

:29:33. > :29:39.previous Labour government, it is more boring than any post-war Labour

:29:40. > :29:49.government added together. It is equivalent to ?25,600 of extra debt

:29:50. > :29:54.for every household in the country. Can you confirm it is still his

:29:55. > :29:58.policy to borrow another - billion pounds on top? I am pleased he has

:29:59. > :30:01.raised that. We have just seen 700 billion borrowed over the last seven

:30:02. > :30:08.years as a result of economic failure the Labour Party's policy,

:30:09. > :30:13.based upon the recommendations of the CBI and others, is to look to

:30:14. > :30:19.spend ?500 billion on investment. 200 billion mainstream direct

:30:20. > :30:23.funding, 100 billion to a national investment bank which will prize,

:30:24. > :30:32.from the private sector and elsewhere, 250 billion. The

:30:33. > :30:34.infrastructure investment that is required to tackle the productivity

:30:35. > :30:40.crisis caused by his government, and I will give way. I am grateful to

:30:41. > :30:44.the Right Honourable Gentleman. I wonder if he could clarify? He has

:30:45. > :30:47.just cried the fact that the national debt has increased by ?700

:30:48. > :30:52.billion. Is he saying he would not have spent that ?700 billion? Would

:30:53. > :30:57.he continued to maintain the same deficit that we currently have and

:30:58. > :31:03.spend this ?500 billion on top of that? I am not quite sure of his

:31:04. > :31:07.maths. We would have invested in the beginning in infrastructure and

:31:08. > :31:11.skills, invested in the economy and not had to borrow ?700 billion for

:31:12. > :31:18.failure, rather than growth and success. Because of the focus of the

:31:19. > :31:27.Government being an unobtainable surplus target, they did not use the

:31:28. > :31:30.borrow wisely. The sound policy, as recommended by organisations like

:31:31. > :31:36.the IMF and CBI is to put Britain to work in supporting investment.

:31:37. > :31:39.Instead, in seven wasted years the Government has cut its investment.

:31:40. > :31:48.If I can finish the sentence, it fell to the lowest level in a

:31:49. > :31:52.decade. I thank the Right Honourable Gentleman for giving way. He rightly

:31:53. > :31:56.says, and I think many of us feel, we have borrowed a hell of a lot of

:31:57. > :32:02.money, probably too much money, since 2010, ?700 billion. It does

:32:03. > :32:05.give a lie to the idea that there has been grinding austerity. We are

:32:06. > :32:08.still borrowing huge wads of money and there has been a balance in

:32:09. > :32:11.ensuring welfare has been maintained. In relation to

:32:12. > :32:14.investment, one of the most insidious elements of investment of

:32:15. > :32:20.the last Labour administration was in relation to PPP and PFI schemes,

:32:21. > :32:24.many of which we are still paying off and will be for decades to come.

:32:25. > :32:26.A colossal amount of money of so-called investment, that is

:32:27. > :32:33.actually just adding more to our debt. The honourable gentleman will

:32:34. > :32:37.recall my opposition to PFI in the past. But let's be absolutely clear,

:32:38. > :32:41.borrowing for investment to ensure that people have the skills and to

:32:42. > :32:45.ensure they have the resources to tackle productivity crisis and

:32:46. > :32:50.therefore grow the economy, achieve high skills, high wages, that they

:32:51. > :32:56.can then pay the taxes to afford public services is, on one hand,

:32:57. > :32:59.creditable. Borrowing because of the failure of government economic

:33:00. > :33:04.policy is what we have seen over the last seven years. Instead of the

:33:05. > :33:09.next... I repeat, over nearly seven years, we have seen Government

:33:10. > :33:15.actually cutting investment. The consequence of inadequate investment

:33:16. > :33:19.is clear. Austerity measures and lower investment have fed directly

:33:20. > :33:23.into what the governor of the Bank of England has called a lost decade

:33:24. > :33:26.for earnings. Productivity growth has stagnated, as even the

:33:27. > :33:33.Government's own White Paper on strategy acknowledged. I Shadow

:33:34. > :33:37.Chancellor's concerns. Every hour worked in Britain produces a third

:33:38. > :33:42.less than every hour worked in the US, Germany or France. We have been

:33:43. > :33:45.arguing this case at least since I have been a Shadow Chancellor, but

:33:46. > :33:48.it was not acknowledged by the Government until literally

:33:49. > :33:52.yesterday. It is no use those on the benches opposite talking about a

:33:53. > :33:56.post-Brexit Britain taking on the world with that record of

:33:57. > :34:02.underinvestment. An economy with low productivity can only compete on the

:34:03. > :34:07.lowest common denominator. That means, as happened, slashing wages

:34:08. > :34:12.and salaries and hacking away at social protections like the NHS and

:34:13. > :34:15.pensions. This is the grim reality of the Conservative's low

:34:16. > :34:21.investment, low productivity, low-wage economy. It can easily get

:34:22. > :34:25.worse from here. Clearly, some of the benches opposite, well, for

:34:26. > :34:29.them, and economy shorn of basic protections in the workplace, with

:34:30. > :34:33.rock bottom wages, with social spending provisions stripped to the

:34:34. > :34:39.barest minimum, for some it would be a desirable goal. We have seen a

:34:40. > :34:44.glimpse of that future in the Chancellor's own threats to turn

:34:45. > :34:48.Britain into a tax haven. I will come back to the honourable

:34:49. > :34:52.gentleman. To even hold up this prospect is to admit that the

:34:53. > :34:57.government has no better plan than the steady management of decline.

:34:58. > :35:01.Look, I've been in opposition, so I know what the honourable gentleman

:35:02. > :35:06.is doing, and I understand that. But there has to be a little bit of

:35:07. > :35:09.reality. We are the fastest-growing economy in the G7. I've been to

:35:10. > :35:15.France, as he has, I've been to Germany, to Spain, as he has. Is he

:35:16. > :35:20.aware of the rates of unemployment in those countries? Let's just

:35:21. > :35:26.compare what is happening now, out there, in the real world. We welcome

:35:27. > :35:30.the growth of employment. Let's talk about what has happened to wages. We

:35:31. > :35:43.have had the biggest fall in wages among OECD countries in the last ten

:35:44. > :35:47.years, matched only by Greece. One in five employees were low paid in

:35:48. > :35:55.Britain in 2015. Mark Carney cordoba lost decade of income growth -- he

:35:56. > :36:00.called it the lost decade of income growth. On average, they earn less

:36:01. > :36:03.than 20 years ago. Yes, I welcome the growth of employment, but I

:36:04. > :36:08.don't welcome the growth of poverty payments like this, whether you are

:36:09. > :36:15.self-employed, or an zero hours contracts, or being exploited

:36:16. > :36:18.accordingly. He will know the Rowntree foundation are saying the

:36:19. > :36:26.gap between the rich and the poor has actually reduced since 2010. He

:36:27. > :36:33.will also know that, on a minimum our salaries, on the zero hour...

:36:34. > :36:37.What is the phrase? Thank you, on the zero hour contract! Over half of

:36:38. > :36:43.people polled say that they wish to have that flexibility. Yes, people

:36:44. > :36:48.in self-employment do often earn less, but it is their decision to do

:36:49. > :36:52.it. I was self-employed before I created my own company. It was my

:36:53. > :36:58.choice to do that, rather than earning more in a larger

:36:59. > :37:03.corporation. What we now have in our economy is a scandal of bogus

:37:04. > :37:06.self-employment. A large amount of the growth in self-employment is on

:37:07. > :37:09.that basis, and part of it is the most exploitative. Let's look at

:37:10. > :37:15.some of the figures on inequality. If we use another index, other than

:37:16. > :37:21.the one which does not take into account the outstripping of the

:37:22. > :37:24.super-rich, if he used the ratio of between the tenth and 90th

:37:25. > :37:32.percentile is, inequality has risen every year over the last five years.

:37:33. > :37:35.If you look at what has happened in individual countries, the FTSE 100

:37:36. > :37:43.chief executives, the average total pay off their employees in 2015, the

:37:44. > :37:47.comparison, 129-1. In the mid-1990s, it was no more than 45-1. That is

:37:48. > :37:51.the grotesque level of inequality we are seeing as a result of the

:37:52. > :37:56.economy that has been created over the last seven years. Actually,

:37:57. > :38:01.yesterday's Green paper actually seemed to recognise the failure of

:38:02. > :38:08.previous policy. There has certainly been a change of rhetoric. The Prime

:38:09. > :38:14.Minister has suddenly been one to the... -- won to the merits of that

:38:15. > :38:18.policy. The message that the previous years have failed badly is

:38:19. > :38:21.welcome. But nowhere is it clear that the Government recognises the

:38:22. > :38:26.scale of the problem. The witnesses and inequalities stem from decades

:38:27. > :38:30.of underinvestment, where decisions about where and what to invest has

:38:31. > :38:34.been taken by too few people at the top, to the benefit of that tiny

:38:35. > :38:43.handful. It leads to an economy where what the Government plans,

:38:44. > :38:49.over ?5,000 of investment per head in London, but just ?413 in the

:38:50. > :38:55.north-east of England, or where a single London capital project

:38:56. > :38:59.receives more open and backing on the Yorkshire, or when the 500

:39:00. > :39:05.million announced for the North of England promised yesterday is set

:39:06. > :39:10.against ?18 billion worth of cuts from local authority budgets in

:39:11. > :39:19.2010. I see the honourable gentleman is ready to jump. Defending London's

:39:20. > :39:26.on certain extent. Surely, the Right Honourable Gentleman recognises that

:39:27. > :39:29.significant amounts of money that comes in to the capital for

:39:30. > :39:36.investment, if they didn't come here, it would go to another

:39:37. > :39:39.national capital. Many of the cranes in my constituency, and very near

:39:40. > :39:44.his constituency, near Heathrow, many of them are up with large-scale

:39:45. > :39:50.investment and infrastructure projects. They are producing huge

:39:51. > :39:54.numbers of jobs in construction and contracting well beyond the capital

:39:55. > :39:58.city. It is the case that there is a large amount of investment that goes

:39:59. > :40:05.on here in London. But that has a benefit well beyond the capital

:40:06. > :40:10.city. Don't worry, I was enjoying it. The reality is this, this is

:40:11. > :40:16.Government investment. Those figures, they are just not

:40:17. > :40:19.acceptable. 5000 per head, in London, in comparison with 400 in

:40:20. > :40:23.the north-east, it is not acceptable. That is a level of

:40:24. > :40:26.inequality that has to be challenged, and the gentleman is

:40:27. > :40:31.usually fair, and I am sure he will accept that, no matter how much we

:40:32. > :40:35.are both champions for our capital city. So, yes, the shift in rhetoric

:40:36. > :40:39.is welcome, but it must be backed up by meaningful action. This is where

:40:40. > :40:43.the revised charter still falls short. It's good to see the

:40:44. > :40:49.Chancellor has taken on board labour's recommendations and has

:40:50. > :40:52.ditched the surplus target. In doing so, he has held out at is the

:40:53. > :40:56.potential of letting some of the burden of the austerity measures

:40:57. > :41:00.that have led to crises in health and social care. Yet, last year's

:41:01. > :41:05.Autumn Statement, I deeply regret that he failed to take this option.

:41:06. > :41:10.The result of his failure to act on both the NHS and social care funding

:41:11. > :41:15.has been to contribute to the worst funding crisis to the NHS for

:41:16. > :41:26.decades. A social care system pushed beyond breaking point. There are

:41:27. > :41:31.sometimes an image that captures the plight on a particular issue. A

:41:32. > :41:34.couple of years ago, it was the plight of that child's body on the

:41:35. > :41:40.shores of the Mediterranean that brought to our attention the crisis

:41:41. > :41:44.of the refugees. Last year, it was the plight of that child, the

:41:45. > :41:48.photograph of that child in an ambulance, in blood and dust, being

:41:49. > :41:57.pulled out of the debris in Aleppo. The image to me that has focused the

:41:58. > :42:01.NHS crisis was two weeks ago, of a child below the age of five, in a

:42:02. > :42:08.hospital corridor, being treated on two plastic chairs pushed together.

:42:09. > :42:12.That is unacceptable in the sixth richest country in the world,

:42:13. > :42:16.unacceptable. It is as a result of the failure to act in the Autumn

:42:17. > :42:20.Statement to address the underfunding. I have written now to

:42:21. > :42:24.the chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility to ask if the office

:42:25. > :42:31.can look into providing assessments of the impact of health care funding

:42:32. > :42:35.against expected need. As we saw last month, the British Red Cross

:42:36. > :42:37.has now described the ongoing situation as a humanitarian crisis

:42:38. > :42:41.and the response from the government is to play down the situation,

:42:42. > :42:46.despite the volume of continued complaints from front line NHS

:42:47. > :42:49.staff. I strongly believe that this is leading to widespread public

:42:50. > :42:54.distrust in the Government's presentation of the levels of

:42:55. > :42:57.funding and support for the NHS and social care. So it makes sense to

:42:58. > :43:02.attempt to provide some objective assessment of the real needs of the

:43:03. > :43:06.NHS to help prevent the real terms funding cuts that have taken place

:43:07. > :43:12.under this government. I say to the Chancellor again now, he can and

:43:13. > :43:17.must now take response action to ensure that health and social care

:43:18. > :43:22.are properly funded in this period of crisis. Instead, the Charter

:43:23. > :43:26.represents only the smallest improvement on the previous dire

:43:27. > :43:29.fiscal policy. Unbelievably, contrary to all advice, it still

:43:30. > :43:33.attempts to keep investment spending inside the spending control

:43:34. > :43:37.framework. Already, this has been criticised by experts from the

:43:38. > :43:40.Institute for Fiscal Studies and keeping the investment spending

:43:41. > :43:44.inside the overall cap means that every pound delivered for investment

:43:45. > :43:49.comes at the expense of potential spending on public services.

:43:50. > :43:57.At a time when the costs of capital for government are close to the

:43:58. > :44:05.lowest in history this choice makes little sense. And facing Brexit the

:44:06. > :44:10.challenge for all of us is to think boldly about how this country can

:44:11. > :44:16.respond and the amended rule. Far short of this. And want to ask the

:44:17. > :44:21.honourable gentleman on his position about public debt. Ours is set to

:44:22. > :44:26.peak at just over 90% of GDP and yet he is setting out a course of action

:44:27. > :44:30.which would have public the driving indefinitely, going on rising

:44:31. > :44:34.forever. Is the comfortable with this position? That is clearly not

:44:35. > :44:39.the case and if you look carefully at Labour's fiscal credibility rule

:44:40. > :44:43.he would have seen and adopted it, he would have seen that actually

:44:44. > :44:47.what we will be doing is reducing debt for the lifetime of a

:44:48. > :44:50.Parliament and that is as a result of ensuring that we have proper

:44:51. > :44:54.investment tackling the productivity gap, bringing people back to work,

:44:55. > :44:57.ensuring they have the skills and produce high wages and in that way

:44:58. > :45:04.they can fund it to a tax-raising that is thinner than the existing

:45:05. > :45:08.one. It simply will not be possible to deliver the scale of support and

:45:09. > :45:12.investment needed to rebuild our economy inside the restrictions of

:45:13. > :45:16.the rules he is proposing. We will get half measures and rhetorical

:45:17. > :45:19.commitments. What we will not get is a serious commitment to deliver the

:45:20. > :45:25.economic as remission we need. To do so would acquire government ticking

:45:26. > :45:29.on a few too many vested interests. It would mean a serious attempt to

:45:30. > :45:33.clamp down on tax avoidance, it would mean reversing the hand-outs

:45:34. > :45:37.to the giant corporations and the super-rich, it would mean ending in

:45:38. > :45:40.reality not only in rhetoric and colossal in balance in investment

:45:41. > :45:45.between a few favourite places in the south-east and the rest of the

:45:46. > :45:49.country. In changing the rules the government is admitting its prior

:45:50. > :45:54.failure and then failing to seriously address its cousins.

:45:55. > :46:00.Investment is too low, productivity is too low, wages are too low.

:46:01. > :46:06.Labourers or fiscal readability rule follows the recommendations of world

:46:07. > :46:08.fiscal organisations and trade unions to keep day-to-day spending

:46:09. > :46:11.entirely separate from the government plans to invest. This

:46:12. > :46:16.government's fiscal rule is titled government investment, at the same

:46:17. > :46:21.time as being obsessively loose on government control. The primary

:46:22. > :46:25.reason for introducing the rule is to show the government's one fiscal

:46:26. > :46:29.plans are consistent and planned well in advance. It allows business

:46:30. > :46:32.and investors themselves to plan and act as a reassurance to markets that

:46:33. > :46:38.the government will not attempt to spend excessively. The rule should

:46:39. > :46:44.be basis of the stricter deportment of borrowing limits. We accept that,

:46:45. > :46:47.but it should also contain the flexibility of governments to

:46:48. > :46:50.contain -- to respond when unexpected shocks Walker. Getting

:46:51. > :46:53.the balance between these point is difficult so following the best

:46:54. > :46:58.economic advice Labour's fiscal credibility rule raises the power to

:46:59. > :47:03.determine whether we are outside normal times in the hands of the

:47:04. > :47:09.monetary policy committee -- committee and they can determine if

:47:10. > :47:12.it is necessary for fiscal policy to adjust in response to another

:47:13. > :47:15.anticipated shock. The freedom to determine the fiscal stance is a

:47:16. > :47:20.significant power for a government and one has to be used responsibly.

:47:21. > :47:23.Labour do not believe that it is desirable to return to the days when

:47:24. > :47:28.governments would produce their own economic forecasts and then decide

:47:29. > :47:31.on their own terms where the business cycle was and how much

:47:32. > :47:36.extra fiscal leeway they were allowed. It meant that the Treasury

:47:37. > :47:40.had excessive power to determine fiscal policy and that in turn meant

:47:41. > :47:44.governments would have the power to favour short-term quick fixes at the

:47:45. > :47:49.expense of longer-term action to rebuild the economy. A credible

:47:50. > :47:55.fiscal rule should not allow that to happen. And it should be bolted into

:47:56. > :48:00.place and compel a government to act for the longer-term good. Labour's

:48:01. > :48:04.fiscal rule does this, that hands power to recognise economic shocks

:48:05. > :48:08.to the monetary policy committee, get the new charter for budget

:48:09. > :48:10.responsibility is to have the power to recognise economic shocks

:48:11. > :48:14.straight back to the Treasury. It returns us to the bad old days when

:48:15. > :48:18.short-term Treasury thinking would be allowed to dominate economic

:48:19. > :48:22.policy-making. It could mean that once again Conservative chancellors

:48:23. > :48:25.could be tempted to ease off or tighten up on the spending not

:48:26. > :48:30.because of the economy but because an election is due. In other words

:48:31. > :48:35.it defeats the purpose of having a rule of fiscal rule in the first

:48:36. > :48:39.place. Instead of breaking with the short-term thinking of the past it

:48:40. > :48:43.bolted more firmly into place. How can the rule be taken seriously when

:48:44. > :48:51.it is so obviously open to being undermined? The revised charter

:48:52. > :48:53.brings us close to the worst of both worlds, in suggesting titled

:48:54. > :48:56.government investment in building a post Brexit economy should demand

:48:57. > :48:59.government intervention and yet it is excessively loose and the

:49:00. > :49:04.government itself, and in too much power to the Treasury. The

:49:05. > :49:07.Chancellor and the government are squandering an opportunity here,

:49:08. > :49:11.they could have ditched the field existing fiscal rule and put in

:49:12. > :49:15.place a new fiscal mandate that would give us the space needed to be

:49:16. > :49:21.built and transform the economy as we prepare for Brexit. Instead, they

:49:22. > :49:24.have handed more powers back to the Treasury while the Chancellor has

:49:25. > :49:29.insisted on maintaining austerity spending cuts. No part of this

:49:30. > :49:32.government's fiscal rule can be supported and Mr Speaker we will be

:49:33. > :49:45.voting against the charter as a whole. Thank you Mr Speaker, I am

:49:46. > :49:54.somewhat in order to pack in your place. The Chancellor was very

:49:55. > :49:56.measured in his defence of the new charter and his presentation was

:49:57. > :50:04.without the usual gimmicks and flamboyance of his predecessor and

:50:05. > :50:09.it was no worse for that. But Mr Speaker I have read my Sherlock

:50:10. > :50:17.Holmes and it is the dog that didn't bark in the night that you have to

:50:18. > :50:21.look out for. This is only 15 months Mr Speaker, only 15 months since we

:50:22. > :50:26.last debated the new set of Treasury rules. I am in favour of such rules,

:50:27. > :50:30.rules are there to create stability and sustainability in the national

:50:31. > :50:34.finances, they are there to give confidence to lenders and indeed

:50:35. > :50:40.they are there to restrain politicians from using the public

:50:41. > :50:45.purse for party advantage. That said, it should be obvious to anyone

:50:46. > :50:49.that if this Conservative government is bent on rewriting the fiscal rule

:50:50. > :50:56.book only 15 months after the last time it did it then intermodulation

:50:57. > :51:01.and seriousness is open to question and the Chancellor did not address

:51:02. > :51:05.that. And it is a serious point Mr Speaker that if you keep changing

:51:06. > :51:08.the rules even though you stand up and make the measured defence of the

:51:09. > :51:12.new set of rules then you have to explain why you keep changing them

:51:13. > :51:18.if you want people to have confidence in the next set of rules.

:51:19. > :51:25.The Chancellor field to do that. Let me explain, we suffered an exogenous

:51:26. > :51:29.shock which according to the OBE are implied an extra ?84 billion of

:51:30. > :51:32.additional borrowing over the forecast horizon. I would say when

:51:33. > :51:40.the facts change we should change our plans. Mr Speaker, that is not

:51:41. > :51:43.what rules are for. The rules should not change when the situation

:51:44. > :51:49.changes, the policy should change what the rules are the two protect

:51:50. > :51:52.and to assist -- to protect sustainability and to protect the

:51:53. > :51:57.ability of the markets to feel they have confidence in the government.

:51:58. > :52:03.The point is the Chancellor, is of course there was an exogenous shock,

:52:04. > :52:06.Brexit has produced that exogenous shock and the full force of that

:52:07. > :52:10.shock has yet to arrive in the British economy and the total is

:52:11. > :52:15.preparing the ground for when the week if the economy but the point is

:52:16. > :52:19.that the policy issue, why would the rules change? The rules are there

:52:20. > :52:22.for sustainability. If the rules change every ten circumstances

:52:23. > :52:27.change I put it to you what is the point of having the rules? Surely

:52:28. > :52:32.the honourable death woman must recognise that the proof of the

:52:33. > :52:37.pudding is whether or not there has been a sense of confidence drifting

:52:38. > :52:41.away from banks and carpets in relation to that. They have a

:52:42. > :52:47.recommendation that this has been a major event, and the impact of

:52:48. > :52:53.Brexit is still some way ahead. Nevertheless that impact means it is

:52:54. > :52:57.quite legitimate not to be bound by rules that 50 months ago are in a

:52:58. > :53:00.different world to the one that we are going to have the experience in

:53:01. > :53:05.the months and years to come. Mr Speaker, I thank the members for

:53:06. > :53:10.putting clearly the point I'm trying to make. The rules are a hostage to

:53:11. > :53:14.fortune. That is what the members of that side of the house are saying.

:53:15. > :53:17.The rules will change when circumstances change, when you need

:53:18. > :53:19.to change the rules to get the results you want therefore what is

:53:20. > :53:24.the point of having the rules at all? You're confirming the point you

:53:25. > :53:28.put forward, that forward by the Shadow Chancellor, and the rules are

:53:29. > :53:34.flexible politically. Therefore they are not rules. And you can prove

:53:35. > :53:44.this, if you look at this government's borrowing record. Since

:53:45. > :53:55.2010 when this government was elected between 2010 and 2015 the

:53:56. > :54:01.national debt rose by 50%. The latest OBR forecast suggests that

:54:02. > :54:05.between 2010 and the end of this parliament the national debt will

:54:06. > :54:12.have doubled, it will be almost doubled. That is not something you

:54:13. > :54:19.can go on winning an the former Labour government. That said of the

:54:20. > :54:22.house has doubled the national debt in its tenure in office. The

:54:23. > :54:25.Chancellor has gone away with that, the previous Chancellor, because

:54:26. > :54:28.they keep coming to this house would rules to pretend that they are

:54:29. > :54:35.fiscally responsible yet the doubled the national debt. Inheriting a

:54:36. > :54:39.deficit the size that we did in 2010 there would have been our way of

:54:40. > :54:43.avoiding doubling the national debt, that would have involved an even

:54:44. > :54:48.harsher period of consolidation of the public finances as I wandered

:54:49. > :54:52.and party and opposition voted against every single measure to

:54:53. > :54:59.consolidate but let me make this point, the previous fiscal rules

:55:00. > :55:02.called a surplus in 2020, 2021, the honourable gentleman seems to be

:55:03. > :55:06.advocating a policy response which says we will squeeze the economy

:55:07. > :55:12.harder in order to meet the old rules in the new circumstances. Is

:55:13. > :55:15.that what he would like? I'm glad the Chancellor has admitted that

:55:16. > :55:18.they have, by the end of this Parliament they will have doubled

:55:19. > :55:25.the national debt. So much Mr Speaker for the fiscal rules. I have

:55:26. > :55:28.happy to admit to the Chancellor, I was actually in favour of doubling

:55:29. > :55:33.the national debt. That does not give me a problem. I think that is

:55:34. > :55:38.what saved the economy. But I cannot abide Mr Speaker is the rank

:55:39. > :55:43.hypocrisy of a government that keeps coming up with laughter rule after

:55:44. > :55:47.rule to pretend that it's fiscally prudent... Order. We need to be

:55:48. > :55:53.clear that the honourable gentleman is not accusing any minister in the

:55:54. > :55:59.government, any individual of hypocrisy, for that would be

:56:00. > :56:01.completely disorderly. It is not a debating matter nor something on

:56:02. > :56:04.which I am looking for the honourable gentleman 's

:56:05. > :56:07.interpretation. I'm generally same to him that if that is what you

:56:08. > :56:10.saying then he must withdraw it. If he's making a charge at the

:56:11. > :56:15.collective then he can just about get away with it under the

:56:16. > :56:20.procedures. I'm suitably chided Mr Speaker. I make no aspersion on the

:56:21. > :56:28.character of any individual in government. As a collective though,

:56:29. > :56:31.I make the point in the Chancellor has admitted this, that they have

:56:32. > :56:37.changed the rules to suit themselves, that is the basic point

:56:38. > :56:41.I'm trying to get across. This new set of rules, what possible faith

:56:42. > :56:48.and be that the bomb be changed another 50 months? John McDonald? I

:56:49. > :56:51.don't want to interfere but they could draw the honourable member's

:56:52. > :56:55.attention that intruders and named very Chancellor, the person who is

:56:56. > :57:00.the Chancellor was condemning any concept of rules at all whatsoever

:57:01. > :57:03.and that in that school that he eventually in the method and

:57:04. > :57:09.opposition that came to court there was a welfare cap that has been

:57:10. > :57:12.completely disregarded, the reduction in the deficit was not to

:57:13. > :57:17.be a reduction it is meant to be an elimination and a reduction of debt

:57:18. > :57:23.so rules seem to have gone out the window very early. Particular point.

:57:24. > :57:27.I do agree with the honourable Doberman. Like the moon or -- let me

:57:28. > :57:41.move on Mr Speaker. In very grit detail. He did press

:57:42. > :57:46.the point he's made here today -- very great detail. The new fiscal

:57:47. > :57:52.rules plus the Autumn Statement were designed to give the Government

:57:53. > :57:56.enough fiscal headroom to meet any unforeseeable circumstances should

:57:57. > :58:02.the economy and economic growth slow as a result of Brexit decision. I

:58:03. > :58:08.respect that. Here's my point. Why give yourself headroom for a future

:58:09. > :58:13.event, a future dangerous event? Why not take action now in order to

:58:14. > :58:18.forestall that event? What this fiscal charter in essence suggests,

:58:19. > :58:23.is that, it gives the Chancellor the room in two, three, four years'

:58:24. > :58:28.time, if the economy begins to slow, to use a fiscal surplus in order to

:58:29. > :58:36.be able to invest in the economy and crank up growth. Why not do that

:58:37. > :58:43.now? The dangerous impression that the fiscal charter gives is somehow

:58:44. > :58:49.it will prevent the ill effects of Brexit. The Chancellor can intervene

:58:50. > :58:55.if something goes wrong. My point is why not use that fiscal headroom

:58:56. > :59:00.now? The problem is, of course, the underlying strength of the economy

:59:01. > :59:04.is nowhere nearly as strong as the Chancellor's trying to make out in

:59:05. > :59:10.his presentation. Yes, there is growth. But if you look at the

:59:11. > :59:16.underpinnings of the growth for the last year, it is largely come from

:59:17. > :59:23.an expansion of consumer spending underpinned by a consumer borrowing,

:59:24. > :59:28.unsecured consumer borrowing. At the same time, post the Brexit vote, the

:59:29. > :59:34.pound has fallen substantially in international markets. That's

:59:35. > :59:39.stoking up inflation. I cannot imagine a more dangerous situation

:59:40. > :59:43.for growth to be dependent on unsecured consumer borrowing when

:59:44. > :59:51.inflation's starting to rise, the bling... I'm grateful for the

:59:52. > :59:56.honourable gentleman for giving way. Doesn't' regard it as contradictory

:59:57. > :00:00.he may be advocating Government expenditure while at the same time

:00:01. > :00:05.warning about the risk of inflation? Not if you talk into account the

:00:06. > :00:10.fact what is likely to happen is if inflation starts to rise and the

:00:11. > :00:18.Bank of England, the honourable member will know this, the Bank of

:00:19. > :00:23.England decides to let inflation flow through the economy and

:00:24. > :00:28.inflation rises to the top of its current forecast range of 3%, it

:00:29. > :00:34.thinks it will then start to decline again. There are other people, the

:00:35. > :00:38.Federation of Small Businesses, for instance, thinks inflation will go

:00:39. > :00:41.above the core forecast from Bank of England of the we could be looking

:00:42. > :00:47.at inflation in two years' time of 5%. That will have a crippling

:00:48. > :00:57.effect... The Chancellor shakes his head. All I'm quoting is the

:00:58. > :01:00.Federation of Small Businesses, not an unresponsible organisation, that

:01:01. > :01:11.thinks the core forecast which takes us up to about 3% of CPI from Bank

:01:12. > :01:18.of England will be exceeded. I think that is a strong possibility. If we

:01:19. > :01:23.head up to 5% inflation, the Bank of England said it will not raise

:01:24. > :01:27.interest rates to compensate that, consumer spending will start to

:01:28. > :01:32.fall. My argument in reply to the question asked by the honourable

:01:33. > :01:38.member, if consumer spending tanks, we are in a hard Brexit situation,

:01:39. > :01:42.foreign investment is is falling and firms are reluctant to conduct

:01:43. > :01:47.business investment, the only agency left to plug the gap is the

:01:48. > :01:53.Government. What I'm pointing out is the Chancellor, rather than wait for

:01:54. > :01:56.that to happen, by which point the fiscal policy to kick in will take

:01:57. > :02:03.two or three years beyond that, he should be doing it now. That is the

:02:04. > :02:06.basic point I'm trying to make. I'm listening 209 honourable gentleman

:02:07. > :02:14.with great interest. I like his debating style. Reminds me of an old

:02:15. > :02:20.professioner I had at university! I have to say, has he not just

:02:21. > :02:26.contradicted himself. Early ear he said there's no need for changing

:02:27. > :02:29.the rules, then he gives us a nightmare scenario for the future

:02:30. > :02:38.because of Brexit and says we do need change. He has to make up his

:02:39. > :02:44.mind. I did not say that the rules should be changed. I don't like the

:02:45. > :02:48.original rules and once being brought forward. I believe there

:02:49. > :02:55.should be fiscal rules, a fiscal mandate to restrain Government. My

:02:56. > :03:00.primary point is if we keep changing the rules, that mandate does not

:03:01. > :03:05.exist. My set of rules, I don't have the time tonight to go substantially

:03:06. > :03:08.into them and I won't press the patience of the speaker, there

:03:09. > :03:14.should be a restraint on current expenditure. I'm more liberal when

:03:15. > :03:25.it comes to capital expenditure. Provided it is linked to trained

:03:26. > :03:29.growth can be counter cyclical. The present rules, the fact they are

:03:30. > :03:34.being changed is the issue. Why the present charter' not worth the paper

:03:35. > :03:50.it's written on as it will have to be changed in a few months' time

:03:51. > :03:53.anyway. My - if you go back to the year 1956, Harold Macmillan gave his

:03:54. > :04:02.one and only Budget speech as Chancellor. If you go back to 1956,

:04:03. > :04:12.what was the ratio of the national debt to GDP? 150%. 150%. Almost

:04:13. > :04:23.double what it is today. Macmillan got up, I read his speech the other

:04:24. > :04:27.day, he quoted Macaulay, one of his he is says, quite sophisticated

:04:28. > :04:35.Chancellors we had in those days. What he did was he quotes Macaulay

:04:36. > :04:38.going through practically every administration since the 1600s.

:04:39. > :04:46.Somebody got up and complained about the level of national debt.

:04:47. > :04:52.Macmillan's point, an expansionary budget, 150% of GDP, debt to GDP

:04:53. > :04:57.rash ya, Macmillan made the point, the point is when we look back, we

:04:58. > :05:02.see the benefits of that borrowing and investment. But when we look

:05:03. > :05:05.forward all we see is the dangers. Macmillan said the trouble is

:05:06. > :05:09.therefore that stops you being bold. I would like this Chancellor to be

:05:10. > :05:15.bolder. I would like him to spend more money. To spend the money

:05:16. > :05:18.before the Brexit recession hits rather than wait until it happens

:05:19. > :05:22.and say I've armoury, weapons to deal with it. Let's deal with the

:05:23. > :05:28.problem before it happens. That's my point.

:05:29. > :05:35.Thank you Mr Speaker. The credibility of the Government's

:05:36. > :05:41.fiscal planned as outlined in the charter's been called into Question

:05:42. > :05:46.Time and time again. Labour oppose the Government's amended charter in

:05:47. > :05:50.2015 as it epitomised the Government's austerity agenda and

:05:51. > :05:57.refusal to intervene and invest in our nation's future. Today, the

:05:58. > :06:02.current clanser attempts to seek approval to break the fist cal

:06:03. > :06:10.target and Amen the charter. Is this good news? Has the Chancellor

:06:11. > :06:14.accepted advice from the IMF, that the austerity is not a credible

:06:15. > :06:20.economic model and Government's role is to support investment? Well, no,

:06:21. > :06:24.sadly he hasn't. The amendments to the rules considered today still

:06:25. > :06:28.commit to the Government's austerity agenda which has forced misery on

:06:29. > :06:33.the most vulnerable people in Britain. It also fails to allow the

:06:34. > :06:40.necessary investment for future growth and pros perity. The Shadow

:06:41. > :06:43.Chancellor joltlined earlier it is encouraging -- outlined earlier the

:06:44. > :06:47.surplus target for 2020 has been ditched. Now the Government seeks

:06:48. > :06:53.O'To balance the books at some point in the next Parliament. Crucially,

:06:54. > :06:57.capital and current spend can are still lumped together and subject to

:06:58. > :07:01.the framework. The Government's ability to large scale investment is

:07:02. > :07:06.significantly constrained. This is quite the opposite of Labour's

:07:07. > :07:12.fiscal position outlined today. ?250 billion of direct Government

:07:13. > :07:16.investment with a further ?250 plea mobilised with private sector

:07:17. > :07:20.support through a national investment bank and regional

:07:21. > :07:25.development banks. The Government's own infrastructure pipe lines lists

:07:26. > :07:29.?500 billion of projects. This is the scale of investment deemed

:07:30. > :07:33.necessary by organisations such as the CBI to simply put us on a level

:07:34. > :07:37.footing with other industrial countries around the word. We know

:07:38. > :07:40.the rules contained within the charter simply don't work

:07:41. > :07:45.effectively and so does the Government. But rather than put in

:07:46. > :07:49.place a new fiscal rule that would provides the structure needed to

:07:50. > :07:53.rebuild and transform our economy as we prepare for Brexit, the

:07:54. > :07:59.Chancellor's chosen to cut off the oxygen needed to create a fertile

:08:00. > :08:06.environment for business. It's time he realised we must forge a new

:08:07. > :08:10.economy destiny to ensure Britain has a prestigious place at the

:08:11. > :08:14.world's table not turn us into a tax haven. We need to rebuild

:08:15. > :08:20.communities left behind for far too long. If anything should have woken

:08:21. > :08:24.the Government up, Brexit should. Was those communities which have

:08:25. > :08:29.been strafshed of investment for decades who were angry. They are

:08:30. > :08:33.right to be angry. They endured nearly seven wasted years where

:08:34. > :08:39.investment had been allocated on an almost lottery basis. App economy

:08:40. > :08:44.where the Government promised ?5,000 of investment per head in London but

:08:45. > :08:49.just ?413 per head in the north-east. An economy where local

:08:50. > :08:54.authorities have lost ?18 billion of Government funding in real terms

:08:55. > :09:01.between 2010 and 2015 with the poorest baring the brunt of this. An

:09:02. > :09:05.economy about the Government slashes the budgets of vital services such

:09:06. > :09:10.as social care and asks local areas to find the money yourselves through

:09:11. > :09:15.council tax increases. But, it's all part of a bigger plan, we're told.

:09:16. > :09:19.Let's assess whether this strategy has worked. We were told if we

:09:20. > :09:23.pulled together and dealt with the sting of austerity for a while

:09:24. > :09:30.things would improve. Is the deficit at zero? We slashed national debt?

:09:31. > :09:37.Well, no. As we heard today, the Government to date has added over

:09:38. > :09:43.?700 billion to the national debt. We have an economy driven by con

:09:44. > :09:46.summer spending. The Bank of England voiced concerns over the

:09:47. > :09:50.sustainability of this model going forward. This is fuelled by

:09:51. > :09:55.extremely worrying levels of household debt, incurred by people

:09:56. > :10:00.who simply can't make ends meet. Then we've what the bank calls a

:10:01. > :10:03.lost decade on earnings. Wages have stagnated to the extent most

:10:04. > :10:07.non-retired families have less money now than they did before the

:10:08. > :10:12.financial crash according to the Office for National Statistics.

:10:13. > :10:16.We've heard productivity growth has stagnated. German workers produce

:10:17. > :10:20.the same in four days as UK workers do in five. I'm pleased the

:10:21. > :10:24.Chancellor brought up this point in his own contribution today. They had

:10:25. > :10:30.a Government that invested in industry. Sadly, we do not. This is

:10:31. > :10:35.not the soundtrack of a Government who is justling to make us one of

:10:36. > :10:40.the world's leading economies post-Brexit. They've carved us out a

:10:41. > :10:44.future based on low investment, productivity and low wages and

:10:45. > :10:51.skeleton public services. I'm a northern MP as you can tell by Mayak

:10:52. > :10:54.sent. I still recall the Conservative Government of the 1980

:10:55. > :10:58.stripping away industry from northern towns and cities. Our

:10:59. > :11:02.community #1u6red impressurable damage. The Government provided back

:11:03. > :11:07.then our northern towns and cities would simply be allowed to enter

:11:08. > :11:11.into a state of managed decline. What we see today in the amended

:11:12. > :11:17.charter is no better than that managed decline. For these reasons

:11:18. > :11:22.we will not be approving the amended charter

:11:23. > :11:31.Thank you. What the British people want is a stable and successful

:11:32. > :11:34.economy, one that means jobs opportunities and a high quality of

:11:35. > :11:38.life and that is what this government Mr Speaker is delivering.

:11:39. > :11:43.That is what we will continue to deliver because unlike the parties

:11:44. > :11:48.opposite we are not ignoring economic realities, we are facing up

:11:49. > :11:51.to them. We are not paying to our responsibilities we are shouldering

:11:52. > :11:53.them and we are not pretending every problem can be solved by spending

:11:54. > :11:58.more and borrowing more or taxing more. We are restoring the public

:11:59. > :12:02.finances to health and investing sensibly and in a well targeted way

:12:03. > :12:08.in the future success of this country. That is how we have turned

:12:09. > :12:14.our economy around, not only are we forecast to have achieved faster

:12:15. > :12:17.growth than any other G-7 economy last year with near record

:12:18. > :12:21.employment and unemployment at its lowest rate in over a decade but at

:12:22. > :12:25.the same time we have made great progress with getting to grips with

:12:26. > :12:32.the public purse, cutting our deficit from its post-war high of

:12:33. > :12:36.10.1% in 2010 to 4% last year. And borrowing one in every ?10 we spend

:12:37. > :12:41.not the one in every four that we saw under the last Labour

:12:42. > :12:44.government. And as my right honourable friend the Chancellor has

:12:45. > :12:49.pointed out the recent fiscal sustainability reports from the OBR

:12:50. > :12:53.reminds us of the necessity of action that we must continue to take

:12:54. > :12:59.in addressing our deficit. The fiscal rules that we are looking at

:13:00. > :13:05.today strike the rate balance for the challenges and opportunities we

:13:06. > :13:10.face. An incredible plan to turn our public finances to balance, enough

:13:11. > :13:16.headroom to guard against economic shocks and scope to invest in

:13:17. > :13:20.improving productivity. The structural deficit must be below 2%

:13:21. > :13:24.of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which sets the right

:13:25. > :13:29.course to ensure the deficit is eliminated altogether next

:13:30. > :13:34.Parliament. Debt will be falling by the end of this Parliament, the new

:13:35. > :13:38.medium term welfare cap is an important component to the plan, a

:13:39. > :13:43.medium-term cap rather than an annual one allows us to make sure

:13:44. > :13:46.that we can control welfare spending, without needing to make

:13:47. > :13:53.short-term changes to react to fluctuations in the forecast for

:13:54. > :13:57.spending. To reiterate, the government will deliver the overall

:13:58. > :14:00.total of welfare savings already identified but has no plans to

:14:01. > :14:06.introduce further welfare savings in this Parliament beyond those already

:14:07. > :14:10.announced. And with welfare accounting for around one quarter of

:14:11. > :14:15.all our spending, a right course of action is not to refuse to consider

:14:16. > :14:18.a kind of control, it is to make sure our expenditure is stable and

:14:19. > :14:21.sustainable and we have already announced all of the measures we

:14:22. > :14:27.will take in this Parliament for savings in this area. This then Mr

:14:28. > :14:31.Speaker is a credible fiscal plan. First because it means tackling the

:14:32. > :14:34.deficit and bringing the public finances into balance, the

:14:35. > :14:39.importance of which continues to be completely overlooked by the party

:14:40. > :14:42.opposite, second, because it sets feasible targets in fact the old BR

:14:43. > :14:48.forecasts that we will meet our aims for this Parliament two years early.

:14:49. > :14:54.Third, because it also gives us the space to react to any short-term

:14:55. > :14:59.fluctuations in our economy, in dispute of adjustment. And also

:15:00. > :15:04.because it gives us the scope to address the long-term structural

:15:05. > :15:10.changes and invest in our future success and I refer specifically to

:15:11. > :15:15.the additional ?23 billion we will be investing in our national

:15:16. > :15:18.productivity, one willing to fund improvements for businesses and

:15:19. > :15:25.families alike in our infrastructure, research and

:15:26. > :15:29.development and housing. So the charter enshrines a commitment to

:15:30. > :15:37.fiscal restraint, it reflects our refusal to allow public spending to

:15:38. > :15:39.ever skyrocket as the party opposite allowed, and determination not to

:15:40. > :15:44.put ourselves again in such a vulnerable position as Labour did in

:15:45. > :15:51.running up the largest structural deficit of any G-7 country ahead of

:15:52. > :15:57.the great recession and a rejection of the requisite economics of the

:15:58. > :16:00.party opposite continue to favour one of blank cheques, unfunded

:16:01. > :16:08.spending commitments and magic money trees. Isn't it time that Labour

:16:09. > :16:11.finally start learning from the mistakes and caring about the

:16:12. > :16:17.economic security that the people of this country deserve? They clearly

:16:18. > :16:21.don't have a credible fiscal plan of their own. They clearly don't have

:16:22. > :16:27.much interest in the matter not after all not a single -- not a

:16:28. > :16:31.single Labour backbencher attended this debate until the 67th minute of

:16:32. > :16:36.it. Let me invite them to join with us today in voting for a plan that

:16:37. > :16:40.is not only in the interests of working people today but the

:16:41. > :16:44.interests of the children and their grandchildren to fall, Mr Speaker I

:16:45. > :16:50.commend this charter to the house. The question is in motion on the

:16:51. > :16:57.charter for budget responsibility as the order papers, as many in favour

:16:58. > :18:39.say aye. To the contrary, no. Division. Clear the lobby.

:18:40. > :18:45.The question is the motion of the charter of budget responsibility is

:18:46. > :18:51.as the order paper. As many in favour aye. On the contrary, no.

:18:52. > :25:03.Tellers for the eyes, tellers for the nose.

:25:04. > :31:08.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! The eyes to the right, 292 -- ayes. The nos

:31:09. > :31:24.to the left, 193. THE SPEAKER: The ayes to the right 2

:31:25. > :31:33.2. The nos to the left, 193. So the ayes have it. The ayes have it.

:31:34. > :31:38.Unlock. Order. We now come to motion number 4 relating to the appointment

:31:39. > :31:43.of the parliamentary commissioner for administration and health

:31:44. > :31:49.service commissioner for England. To move the motion, I call the

:31:50. > :31:56.minister, Chris Skidmore. Thank you, I beg to move a humble address be

:31:57. > :32:00.presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty will appoint Rob Behr ins to

:32:01. > :32:03.the office of parliamentary commissioner of administration and

:32:04. > :32:09.health service commissioner for England. I rush to record the

:32:10. > :32:13.Government's gratitude to dame Mellor who's taken on the role with

:32:14. > :32:20.compassion and commitment. I agree to her staying in post until a

:32:21. > :32:29.success err is in post. I'm grateful to the member of Harwich and Essex

:32:30. > :32:31.and their role in the selection. I'm pleased in the process has

:32:32. > :32:36.identified and outstandings candidate. The recommendation

:32:37. > :32:40.contained in the report which was published last Friday forms the

:32:41. > :32:46.basis of the Government's motion and I commend this to the House.

:32:47. > :32:54.THE SPEAKER: The question is as on the order paper.

:32:55. > :33:03.Can I welcome the minister's comments and endorse the sentiments

:33:04. > :33:12.and we both served as a member of the Health Select Committee. We know

:33:13. > :33:17.of dame melor's hard work. The other panel EUs are all extremely

:33:18. > :33:20.formidable and the scrutiny of the health and public administration of

:33:21. > :33:25.Public Affairs Committee at their pre-appointment hearing. Mr Berrins

:33:26. > :33:30.is an extremely qualified candidate for the role of parliamentary and

:33:31. > :33:34.health ombudsman with all the expectations that role by the public

:33:35. > :33:39.which he has shown as the independent adjudicator and Chief

:33:40. > :33:42.Executive of the office of independent adjudicator and higher

:33:43. > :33:46.education. More importantly, his work on the transformation to

:33:47. > :33:52.democratic rule in South Africa for which he was personally commended by

:33:53. > :34:01.the late president Nelson Mandela and also now Lord Robin Butler of

:34:02. > :34:06.the other place. As transform tiff work deliver agree view which led to

:34:07. > :34:10.52 changes in disciplinary and complaints procedures, including a

:34:11. > :34:14.new process determination by agreement and setting up the widely

:34:15. > :34:22.respective civil service fast stream. Her Majesty's opposition

:34:23. > :34:33.welcome and endorse the appointment of Mr Rob BerrinCBE and wishes him

:34:34. > :34:37.well in his new role. Mr Speaker, the public administration

:34:38. > :34:41.constitution affairs committee was originally established as the public

:34:42. > :34:46.administration select committee in order to receive the reports of PHSO

:34:47. > :34:54.and to scrutinise its performness. This was in the 1960s long before

:34:55. > :34:59.the establishment of most of today's department Alchemies. Our remit is

:35:00. > :35:06.much wider these days but we regard our work with PHSO as one of our

:35:07. > :35:11.most important functions. It exemplifies and underpins our

:35:12. > :35:13.purpose as a committee. We exist to receive complaints about

:35:14. > :35:21.maladministration in the public service and in the NHS. This word

:35:22. > :35:27.maladministration may be an acrid term but is not very appeal. Our

:35:28. > :35:33.role and remit is clear. Our purpose is implied rather than spelt out.

:35:34. > :35:36.Our purpose is to sustain and enhance public confidence in the

:35:37. > :35:42.effectiveness of Government and working with PHSO that is what we've

:35:43. > :35:48.sought to do. In respect of PHSO therefore, we now not only receive

:35:49. > :35:52.PHSO's reports on behalf of Parliament, we actively scrutinise

:35:53. > :35:57.each of them and the public service the report itself is addressing to

:35:58. > :36:02.make sure PHSO's recommendations are properly heard and followed through

:36:03. > :36:08.by which ever department they're addressed to. We have become the

:36:09. > :36:17.accountability mechanism that makes PHSO's reports and work effective.

:36:18. > :36:22.So, we have scrutinised in the past few months PHSO's reports such as

:36:23. > :36:27.driven to despair how drivers have been let down by the Driver and

:36:28. > :36:31.Vehicle Licensing Agency, the report learning from mistakes, an vex

:36:32. > :36:36.report by the Parliamentary Ombudsman about how the NHS failed

:36:37. > :36:40.to properly investigate the death of a child. Our report is being

:36:41. > :36:45.published on 31st January on that. More recently w he published our

:36:46. > :36:52.report on their report on unsafe discharges from hospital. Having

:36:53. > :36:56.been myself involved in the recruitment process so that I did

:36:57. > :37:00.not take part myself in the pre-appointment hearing, I would

:37:01. > :37:06.like to welcome Rob Behr rinse as the new parliamentary and health

:37:07. > :37:12.service ohm you us man. From his time as adjudicator for higher

:37:13. > :37:17.education in England and Wales and as a senior adviser he has gained

:37:18. > :37:20.considerable ex-poorens of complaint handling and a de#25i8ed

:37:21. > :37:26.understanding of the role of an ohm buds man. I'm sure this will enable

:37:27. > :37:34.him to make a success of his new role. I should just point out both

:37:35. > :37:39.the public administration and constitutional affairs economy and

:37:40. > :37:43.Health Select Committee were unanimous in approving his

:37:44. > :37:50.appointment. I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute

:37:51. > :37:57.to dame Julie Mellor for the work she has done to take forward the

:37:58. > :38:04.work of PHSO. She's built on the work of her predecessor. PHSO is

:38:05. > :38:10.much more engaged with Parliament. I would like to thank her for staying

:38:11. > :38:16.at the healp while her replacement has been appointed. PSHO has faced

:38:17. > :38:22.many challenges, not least a cut of over 24% in spending between now and

:38:23. > :38:28.2020. It has been a target of critical public scrutiny, maybe it's

:38:29. > :38:34.justified, some certainly is, but it is made a very challenging role. It

:38:35. > :38:39.is in the middle of a five-year reform plan and faces further reform

:38:40. > :38:45.in the future if the public serviceman ombudsman bill is to come

:38:46. > :38:49.into effect. PHSO must improve the quality and speed of its

:38:50. > :38:54.investigations. Implement technological change. Adapt to the

:38:55. > :38:59.way people in our society expect complaints processes to work. Better

:39:00. > :39:04.engage its staff in order to do so. All this while reducing costs and

:39:05. > :39:11.overheads. The scale of these challenges is significant. I'm

:39:12. > :39:15.confident that Rob Berrins possesses the strong leadership skills and

:39:16. > :39:20.judgment as well as experience as an ohm buds man which will enable these

:39:21. > :39:27.challenges to be met. We look forward to working with him as PHSO

:39:28. > :39:33.continues its work. Pleasure for me to support everything said so far

:39:34. > :39:39.both about dame Julie Melloa and about Bob Berrins. Great pleasure

:39:40. > :39:44.working with Julie over the years during her term of office. She is a

:39:45. > :39:51.charming, intelligent person. Has had quite a hard time because of the

:39:52. > :39:58.pressures of getting the ombudsman's work right. That work will have to

:39:59. > :40:02.continue. Looking forward to a reception in your rooms very

:40:03. > :40:09.shortly, Mr Speaker, as well for dame Julie. As for Bob Berrins, much

:40:10. > :40:15.has been said about his experience. He has a wealth of valuable and

:40:16. > :40:23.varied experience. His role in South Africa, it was quite stunning,

:40:24. > :40:30.really. I took part in the confirmation hearing as a member of

:40:31. > :40:34.the public select committee. He was impressed with his performance.

:40:35. > :40:38.Measured, highly intelligent, precise and thoughtful. Every

:40:39. > :40:45.question he answered in that manner. I think he will do an excellent job

:40:46. > :40:49.carrying on the role of the ombudsman. I just wanted to say it

:40:50. > :40:55.is important we have a backbencher from this side of the House as well

:40:56. > :41:01.as the frontbenches and the chair of the select committee who has spoken

:41:02. > :41:06.so eloquently about what we have done on behalf of the present and

:41:07. > :41:11.future ombudsman. Thank you for allowing me to speak, Mr Speaker. I

:41:12. > :41:17.endorse everything said. Mr Speaker, I very much welcome Mr Berrins to

:41:18. > :41:22.his important new appointment, the PHSO is a vital backstop for

:41:23. > :41:29.complaints about the National Health Service. Its function is clearly

:41:30. > :41:33.vital to our constituents. I'm sure Mr Berrins is seized of the

:41:34. > :41:38.importance of his new duties. An he can totally, it seems to me the

:41:39. > :41:45.service has become more responsive since 2012. A great deal of credit

:41:46. > :41:51.is due to dame Julie Mellor for improving the service as it seems to

:41:52. > :41:53.me. I think it's only right to record that the patients'

:41:54. > :42:01.association doesn't necessarily share that opinion. And has rightly

:42:02. > :42:08.highlighted shortcomings as it sees them. In particular, a perceived

:42:09. > :42:14.lack of responsiveness of the ombudsman service. A perception that

:42:15. > :42:19.perhaps the PHSO is on the side of organisations rather than

:42:20. > :42:24.individuals. I have no way, really, of telling whether that's realistic.

:42:25. > :42:29.But it's important for Dame Julie's successor to understand those

:42:30. > :42:32.criticisms. I hope you seek to work closely with organisations like the

:42:33. > :42:40.patients' association in the years ahead. It is also reasonable to

:42:41. > :42:44.point out failings such as the Morecambe Bay catastrophe, which the

:42:45. > :42:48.ombudsman didn't handle terribly well in my view and the view of many

:42:49. > :43:01.of those who take an interest in these matters.

:43:02. > :43:07.I hope that he will repeat the process as predators are undertaken

:43:08. > :43:10.2012 to ensure that the office he holds is maximising its

:43:11. > :43:14.effectiveness, I think that is a worthwhile thing to undertake and

:43:15. > :43:19.that people consider it carefully. I hope also that ministers may perhaps

:43:20. > :43:27.consider the suggestion made by Sir Bruce Keogh that petitioners might

:43:28. > :43:29.complain to the Care Quality Commission as an intermediary stage

:43:30. > :43:34.and thus perhaps relieve some of the burden that falls on the PHS all

:43:35. > :43:41.that has been responsible over the years for some of the backlog in

:43:42. > :43:45.cases that the office has recognised to be a major block in the work that

:43:46. > :43:51.it does and the responsiveness that it is able to offer people that

:43:52. > :43:55.complain to it. In conclusion Mr Speaker, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would

:43:56. > :43:59.like to commend Dame Julie for her work over the past four years and to

:44:00. > :44:10.congratulate her particularly for doing more as she has found her

:44:11. > :44:14.resources have been curbed. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. We would like

:44:15. > :44:21.to commend the recruitment process that has led to the appointment, I

:44:22. > :44:26.always think that the best way to measure how effective any process is

:44:27. > :44:31.is by looking at the outcome in any reasonable person looking at the

:44:32. > :44:34.track record would recognise that a tribute has to be paid to all of

:44:35. > :44:40.those who were involved in this process. When we look at his track

:44:41. > :44:45.record, his international work that has already been mentioned in South

:44:46. > :44:50.Africa or in Europe, when you look at the range of areas he has worked

:44:51. > :44:54.in from higher education through to the law, and if we would not only at

:44:55. > :44:59.the way in which he has discharged his roles, but also in so many, the

:45:00. > :45:04.way in which he has conducted studies and produced reports that

:45:05. > :45:07.have been meaningful and influential, I think we can all wish

:45:08. > :45:16.him well for the future with great confidence. The question is as on

:45:17. > :45:21.the order paper, as many of that opinion say aye. To the contrary,

:45:22. > :45:25.no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to motion seven.

:45:26. > :45:32.Standing orders planning national policy statements. Thank you for

:45:33. > :45:37.that. The question is on the order paper as many of that opinion say

:45:38. > :45:43.aye, to the contrary, no. The ayes have it. I beg to move this house do

:45:44. > :45:48.now adjourn. The question is does this house now adjourn? It is a

:45:49. > :45:53.pleasure getting on at 6:33pm I remember a number of years ago

:45:54. > :45:57.getting the adjournment and expecting to come on at seven

:45:58. > :46:05.o'clock and I seem to recall I got on at quarter past 11. Those were

:46:06. > :46:08.the days when we had those European documents for any errors saw I very

:46:09. > :46:17.pleased that we don't... Hopefully not tonight anyway. Can I begin by

:46:18. > :46:19.declaring an interest as co-chair of the group one stem cells, I'm very

:46:20. > :46:25.pleased to see Michael Jyrki Honourable member for Southgate in

:46:26. > :46:31.the chamber today and I'm sure he will have some comments later. Can I

:46:32. > :46:36.also put on record that my son received a life-saving stem cell

:46:37. > :46:41.transplant a number of years ago? A stem cell transplant offers a last

:46:42. > :46:46.chance of life to people with a blood cancer or a blood disorder. It

:46:47. > :46:50.works because stem cells have an incredible ability to replace

:46:51. > :46:54.damaged blood cells and it is a remarkable treatment and I think it

:46:55. > :46:59.has great potential wing forward in our health care process. There are

:47:00. > :47:06.different types of stem cell transplants, having some of your

:47:07. > :47:08.order from a donor or related or otherwise and tonight and want to

:47:09. > :47:16.talk about stem cell transplants from donors. Around two dozen people

:47:17. > :47:19.in the UK will meet one every year. Two thirds of these people will not

:47:20. > :47:23.find a matching donor in the families so they require an

:47:24. > :47:27.unrelated donor and I want is arguably paying tribute to Anthony

:47:28. > :47:31.Nolan to provide patients with matching donors from the stem cell

:47:32. > :47:36.donor register. As well as sourcing those transplants, supporting them

:47:37. > :47:40.and their families, I think it is very important, and their families,

:47:41. > :47:45.through the transplants journey and advocating for their behalf. Last

:47:46. > :47:49.year and Nolan to help find a match for over 1200 people with a blood

:47:50. > :47:53.cancer or a blood disorder. I know the house will join me in thanking

:47:54. > :47:58.the selfless stem cell donors who have made this possible at all of

:47:59. > :48:03.those who have joined the stem cell donor register who made only in the

:48:04. > :48:09.future and there are more than 600,000 of those. But sadly it is

:48:10. > :48:14.true that one in eight people will not receive a life-saving

:48:15. > :48:23.transplant, because they're either is not a donor available or a donor

:48:24. > :48:26.cannot be found quickly enough. The odds dramatically from -- for

:48:27. > :48:32.patience from a black Asian ethnic minority background, Anthony Nolan

:48:33. > :48:36.are therefore working very hard to build on and diversify the stem cell

:48:37. > :48:40.donor register to ensure they are able to provide the best match. A

:48:41. > :48:44.lot of work has gone on, it is much better than it was of usable but it

:48:45. > :48:48.is still shopping that if you are from that background the chance of

:48:49. > :48:53.finding a donor is so much less than if you are white. I hope that the

:48:54. > :48:58.minister, I'm sure the Minister will show her support for that. Despite

:48:59. > :49:02.the fact that stem cell transplants are well-established treatment, the

:49:03. > :49:08.huge financial pressures on the NHS causing real problems for patients.

:49:09. > :49:12.I think the most serious of these is those who are in need of a second

:49:13. > :49:16.stem cell transplant. Because sometimes after having a first

:49:17. > :49:21.transplant a patient was my blood cancer blood disorder will come back

:49:22. > :49:28.or relapse. This is devastating news in itself and for about 20 patients

:49:29. > :49:35.every year there will be a recommendation from the doctor or

:49:36. > :49:38.clinician of a second cell transplant is the best and often

:49:39. > :49:45.only chance of life. I think it is worth emphasising that this is not

:49:46. > :49:49.some unknown experimental treatment that people are just taking a punt

:49:50. > :49:55.on, I mean we know that one in three patients receiving a second stem

:49:56. > :50:00.cell transplant will reach the milestone of a five-year survival.

:50:01. > :50:07.We know that for children the results are even better, seven in

:50:08. > :50:11.ten. We know that the medical profession recommend the treatment.

:50:12. > :50:16.We also know that it is routinely and this is the key, routinely

:50:17. > :50:21.available in other parts of the UK as well as countries right across

:50:22. > :50:25.Europe and America. We know that it used to be available in England

:50:26. > :50:31.before 2013 and that there are many people who are alive today leading

:50:32. > :50:35.active lives with their families because they have received a second

:50:36. > :50:42.stem cell transplant. Of course I will give way. I thank him for

:50:43. > :50:45.raising this important issue, I have looked after patients during my time

:50:46. > :50:49.as a nurse who have had the stem cell transplant and talking to

:50:50. > :50:53.haematology colleagues they agree with the honourable Jed Allan's

:50:54. > :50:57.statement that between 20-40% of patients have a second stem cell

:50:58. > :51:00.cars can be cured and this is indeed a treatment offered in many parts of

:51:01. > :51:06.you in the US and it is shameful that it is not being offered in the

:51:07. > :51:09.UK. I would totally agree with her, and I will go on to say that it is

:51:10. > :51:16.obviously a very small number of people but for them it is the only

:51:17. > :51:20.chance if they have a B lacks. Despite all this in December 2016

:51:21. > :51:28.NHS England confirmed that they would not routinely fund stem cell

:51:29. > :51:36.transplants. And they really decided that that person's life was not

:51:37. > :51:42.worth the money. One of these people is Sasha Jones, a 34-year-old mother

:51:43. > :51:48.of two from Greenwich. In March 2015 she was given the devastating news

:51:49. > :51:51.that she had AML. It is a type of blood cancer. Over the next few

:51:52. > :51:57.months she had rounds of chemotherapy at first stem cell

:51:58. > :52:00.transplant. It was not without difficulties but by the beginning of

:52:01. > :52:04.October 2015 she was well enough to go home to her husband and their two

:52:05. > :52:11.young children who are aged just 13 and eight at the time. However, in

:52:12. > :52:17.August 2016 she was told that the blood cancer has come back and buy

:52:18. > :52:24.this in NHS England had decided it was not going to routinely give

:52:25. > :52:29.second transplants for patients in her situation despite it being

:52:30. > :52:33.recommended by the doctors. They tried to get a second transplant by

:52:34. > :52:37.going through the individual funding request route which is something I

:52:38. > :52:40.will go on to talk about later, which allowed NHS England to fund

:52:41. > :52:47.treatment for patients on an individual basis if they are deemed

:52:48. > :52:51.to be an exceptional case. But Mr deputies speaker what is an

:52:52. > :52:54.exceptional case? How will you decide that? And importantly how

:52:55. > :52:59.long does it take to be considered that you are or are not an

:53:00. > :53:05.exceptional case. This has to be done at a time when the family and

:53:06. > :53:10.the patient have to deal with devastating news that what they

:53:11. > :53:14.thought was potentially a cure has come back, and they have to cope

:53:15. > :53:23.with all of that and yet they have to go through this process. For

:53:24. > :53:27.Sasha that request was turned down. She has effectively been left with

:53:28. > :53:34.no alternative for treatment. She now has two choices. Find the money

:53:35. > :53:39.to pay for a second transplant herself, or accept that she may only

:53:40. > :53:45.have months to live. Accept that her two young children can grow up

:53:46. > :53:49.without the mother. It is fair to say that Sasha and her friends and

:53:50. > :53:54.family are desperate, the petition they started for the reversal of NHS

:53:55. > :53:59.England's decision not to fund second cell transplants now has more

:54:00. > :54:04.than 165,000 signatures. There is a fund that has been set-up to try and

:54:05. > :54:07.the money for Sasha, to pay for her second transplant, and this

:54:08. > :54:11.currently stands at ?90,000 but it is still not enough and it is still

:54:12. > :54:15.short of the sum of money that is needed. Can you imagine the enormous

:54:16. > :54:20.pressure that is an Sasha and her family at this time? In the Sasha 's

:54:21. > :54:26.own words she said she has been condemned to death. In having been

:54:27. > :54:29.denied access to second stem so transplant it has been decided that

:54:30. > :54:34.I am not worthy of a second chance at life. My children do not need a

:54:35. > :54:39.mother, my husband Wilbur, a widower. It is a scandal that

:54:40. > :54:43.someone might Sasha will find herself in the situation. Denying

:54:44. > :54:50.the life-saving treatment that other patients have had in the past

:54:51. > :54:57.because the treatment is neither now apparently affordable or

:54:58. > :55:00.justifiable. I will give way. I thank the Honourable gentleman and

:55:01. > :55:07.apologies for not being here and starting. The Honourable gentleman

:55:08. > :55:10.has outlined very clearly why there is NHS support from a second

:55:11. > :55:15.transplant. The C of E with the Anthony Nolan Trust and analysis

:55:16. > :55:19.that shows is the cost of caring for someone who is using a transponder

:55:20. > :55:22.somewhere upwards of ?130,000 would be transplant would only cost

:55:23. > :55:27.hundred and ?20,000 at potentially save a life and devastation to a

:55:28. > :55:31.family. There is a financial as well as moral incentive here. Does he

:55:32. > :55:36.agree with that? I do and I think it is how we look at the cost of

:55:37. > :55:41.treatment. I fully accept that the cost of the transplant is a lot of

:55:42. > :55:48.money in the initial upfront cost, if it works in the actual cost

:55:49. > :55:52.longer term is not great. Whereas we seem willing and able to fund drug

:55:53. > :55:56.for people that may well not cure them and may not extend their lives

:55:57. > :56:00.very much, but because if we add them myelopathy may well cost more

:56:01. > :56:06.than that some but we feel able to do that -- able to do that in the

:56:07. > :56:11.situation. We are seeing we will not find that and I do not think that is

:56:12. > :56:14.right. I don't think Sasha is a unique case and there will be many

:56:15. > :56:20.more like her in the future if we do not change where we are on this.

:56:21. > :56:25.Will the Minister please respond directly to this case and other

:56:26. > :56:28.people that find themselves in this situation? And there will be other

:56:29. > :56:36.people in the years and months to come and I think the voices need to

:56:37. > :56:41.be heard. I will give way. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way.

:56:42. > :56:48.To declare an interest, my husband had a stem cell transplant

:56:49. > :56:53.successful in 2014. For patients with blood cancer, would he agree

:56:54. > :56:57.that the fear of relapse is something which causes a huge amount

:56:58. > :57:00.of anxiety and patients speak of a common feeling of dread when they go

:57:01. > :57:03.to college routine blood results and I commiserate with that. Following

:57:04. > :57:07.the NHS England decision that thousands of patients who received

:57:08. > :57:12.the first stem cell transplant will now have that added fear that if the

:57:13. > :57:14.worst happens and they do relapse in the HS will not provide them with

:57:15. > :57:20.the treatment which would save their lives. I hope my honourable friend

:57:21. > :57:23.will add knowledge and also the Minister that this decision affects

:57:24. > :57:28.not only the 20 desperately ill patients per year a needy second

:57:29. > :57:29.transplants to survive but also the many thousands who live in fear of

:57:30. > :57:39.relapse everyday. I agree with her and would say from

:57:40. > :57:45.personal experience, yes, that is always a fear. Every time you go for

:57:46. > :57:49.a check up, blood, there is in the back of your mind, let's hope

:57:50. > :57:57.everything is OK. It is a very rocky road. I'm sure the whole House will

:57:58. > :58:03.wish Sasha well as she carried on her journey. I would like to pay

:58:04. > :58:09.tribute to the member for Erith and Thames Meade who has been working

:58:10. > :58:16.tirelessly to support Sasha and her family in this incredibly difficult

:58:17. > :58:19.time for them. The Department of Health must accept responsibility in

:58:20. > :58:25.this case and others. Over the past weeks we've been told about the

:58:26. > :58:30.enormous pressure the NHS is under, the winter crisis, hospitals on

:58:31. > :58:36.black alert across the country. Weigh waiting times missed cancer

:58:37. > :58:41.patients having operations can said. Treatments like second cell

:58:42. > :58:45.transplants are being rationed. I accept the NHS is under-funded.

:58:46. > :58:50.Perhaps it always will be under-funded. It can always spend

:58:51. > :58:54.more money. I accept that. I think we are getting to a crisis

:58:55. > :59:02.situation. I think we really need to start and be honest and address

:59:03. > :59:06.# Use issues such as social care. Until we address these and be

:59:07. > :59:10.honest, we'll not sort out of funding situation for the NHS. I

:59:11. > :59:16.don't want to make political points here. I just really want to say we

:59:17. > :59:24.do need to stand up for patients like Sasha whose lives, it really is

:59:25. > :59:29.their lives, are at risk. When NHS England originally announced their

:59:30. > :59:34.decision not to fund second stem cell transplants in July 2016 it

:59:35. > :59:39.caused outrage amongst patients and their families. Over 6,500 people

:59:40. > :59:42.wrote to their MPs and 18,000 people signed a letter to the Secretary of

:59:43. > :59:47.State for Health in a bid to get that decision changed. In addition,

:59:48. > :59:54.30 leading clinicians wrote to the editor of the Times saying that the

:59:55. > :59:57.NHS is ignoring the advice of the clinical community therefore

:59:58. > :00:04.effectively handing most of these patients a death sentence. They were

:00:05. > :00:09.all ignored. As we know, NHS England confirmed that decision in December

:00:10. > :00:15.2016. On a positive note, the good news is that there is a chance for

:00:16. > :00:23.them to get and make things right. NHS England will look again at the

:00:24. > :00:28.policies it funds in the spring. I'd therefore urge the minister and her

:00:29. > :00:32.department to intervene to ensure every patient who needs a second

:00:33. > :00:37.transplant can get access to one. As I said at the beginning, we are not

:00:38. > :00:41.talking huge numbers here. But for those small number of people that

:00:42. > :00:47.are affected, it is their only chance. I don't wish to pre-'em the

:00:48. > :00:55.minister's remarks, but I suspect she may highlight that this is a

:00:56. > :00:59.decision taken by NHS England and not the Government but the

:01:00. > :01:06.Department of Health ultimately has the responsibility for the treatment

:01:07. > :01:10.the patient receives. In the case of second stem cell transplant access

:01:11. > :01:15.to that treatment has been denied. I want to make three very important

:01:16. > :01:20.points. Firstly, as I've already explained, second cell transplants

:01:21. > :01:25.are supported by the evidence. It is standard practice in many countries

:01:26. > :01:30.which the NHS England seems to have completely ignored. They've also

:01:31. > :01:35.ignored the potential to offset a lot of the cost of the second cell

:01:36. > :01:39.transplant, as my honourable friend here has pointed out, when you look

:01:40. > :01:48.at the cost of alternative treatments. In their own impact

:01:49. > :01:53.assessment, they accept, acknowledge for patients who have alternative

:01:54. > :01:59.treatments, the mortality in these cases was extremely high. While the

:02:00. > :02:06.costs of alternative treatments are difficult to quantify and vary

:02:07. > :02:10.between patients there is considerable scope to offset some of

:02:11. > :02:15.those costs if you look it cost over the entire patient's life. A patient

:02:16. > :02:20.who has a successful transplant is far more likely to return or join

:02:21. > :02:27.the workforce and and actually pay back some of those costst that they

:02:28. > :02:33.have or their transplant ease cost. We don't seem to factor that in

:02:34. > :02:38.either. NHS England has not been remotely transparent in their

:02:39. > :02:42.decision making. All they have said is second stem cell transplants are

:02:43. > :02:48.not currently affordable and not routinely commissioned at this time.

:02:49. > :02:53.But this tells us really nothing how NHS England arrived at this

:02:54. > :02:57.decision. Neither the minutes of the clinical priorities advisory group

:02:58. > :03:01.nor the minutes of specialised services commissioning committee are

:03:02. > :03:07.publicly available. The Government agreed with the public expects

:03:08. > :03:11.committee which said when NHS England's decision making in

:03:12. > :03:16.relation to specialist services needs to be more transparent. Can

:03:17. > :03:22.the minutes of these two groups be published on the NHS England's

:03:23. > :03:26.website in future? Thirdly, the way NHS England's decision is commune

:03:27. > :03:31.Kated to patients has quite frankly been shocking. It consists of a

:03:32. > :03:36.single bull let point added to the bottom of a press release under

:03:37. > :03:41.further information. Does the minister agree this is unacceptable

:03:42. > :03:45.and far more needs to be done to ensure these decisions that could

:03:46. > :03:49.cost a patient their lives are shared in a sensitive and caring

:03:50. > :03:58.manner and not just added as some sort of footnote. I asked the

:03:59. > :04:02.minister the most important question, does she accept her

:04:03. > :04:08.department must do more to hold NHS England to account? Will she agree

:04:09. > :04:12.to take steps to ensure every patient has the access to a second

:04:13. > :04:19.stem cell transplant if they need it? In her remarks, I also suspect

:04:20. > :04:24.the minister may say that despite NHS England's decision not to

:04:25. > :04:29.routinely commission second stem cell transplants, patients will be

:04:30. > :04:32.able to access this potentially life saving treatment they need through

:04:33. > :04:38.the individual funding request route. However, patients and their

:04:39. > :04:43.doctors know in reality the chances of success through this route are

:04:44. > :04:48.very slim indeed. In November 2016, the all Parliamentary group on stem

:04:49. > :04:53.cell transplantation had the pleasure to meet Emma Payne. Emma

:04:54. > :05:00.was diagnosed with a blood disorder called severe A plastic anaemia in

:05:01. > :05:03.2005. After her first transplant, Emma relapsed and, like Sasha,

:05:04. > :05:07.doctors recommended a second stem cell transplant. They tried to get

:05:08. > :05:11.this via the individual funding request route and to do this, she

:05:12. > :05:18.had to prove she was an exceptional case. Emma was left waiting in the

:05:19. > :05:23.dark for four months and her doctors had to fight her corner. During this

:05:24. > :05:27.time, she was very unwell with infections and her consultant

:05:28. > :05:31.decided to gamble and start the chemotherapy in preparation for the

:05:32. > :05:36.second stem cell transplant early fearing she would die if they didn't

:05:37. > :05:41.start at that time. Although Emma eventually found out from her doctor

:05:42. > :05:48.the very good news that she was successful in this case, she did not

:05:49. > :05:55.receive her second stem cell transplant until January 2016, some

:05:56. > :06:00.six months after she relapsed. Emma said, I always assumed that if there

:06:01. > :06:05.was one treatment that could save my life, I would be offered it without

:06:06. > :06:10.question. And the biggest barrier to having my second stem cell

:06:11. > :06:17.transplant would be to find another donor not having to fight the NHS to

:06:18. > :06:21.get it funded, I thought. I am a 28-year-old woman and a panel of

:06:22. > :06:28.people will decide whether I get to live or die. Will the minister agree

:06:29. > :06:33.the individual funding request route is never really going to be

:06:34. > :06:40.successful for all patients who need a second stem cell transplant? And

:06:41. > :06:43.even for those that are successful, it's an incredibly tourious route to

:06:44. > :06:47.go through. Can I close by urging the minister, the whole House, to

:06:48. > :06:54.remember the patients caught up in all of this. Not just those who are

:06:55. > :06:58.waiting for a second stem cell transplant today, but the countless

:06:59. > :07:05.individuals who will be left without the chance of a second stem cell

:07:06. > :07:09.transplant in the future. Left without the last hope of a cure. I

:07:10. > :07:15.hope the minister, I'm sure she will not wash her hands of the problem

:07:16. > :07:20.and instead fully accept her department has to really play the

:07:21. > :07:25.key role in this to ensure that action is taken to ensure every

:07:26. > :07:29.patient that needs a second stem cell transplant can access it? The

:07:30. > :07:42.lives of people like Sasha and Emma depend on it. Thank you. A pleasure

:07:43. > :07:47.to take part in this debate. Honourable members on both side who

:07:48. > :07:51.share a deep concern about the great life savings value we've spoken

:07:52. > :07:56.about for a number of years in relation to stem cells and stem cell

:07:57. > :08:00.transplantation. Ten years ago I had little or no knowledge about the

:08:01. > :08:06.life saving treatment available through stem cell transplantation.

:08:07. > :08:12.Now after a Private Members Bill and years of co-chairing the AGCB and

:08:13. > :08:18.meeting individuals and families themselves affected by blood cancers

:08:19. > :08:24.and disorders and knowing that stem cell transplantation saves lives, it

:08:25. > :08:28.is important that we make the case for, particularly in relation to

:08:29. > :08:33.those facing an awful prospect of not seeing a second transplant being

:08:34. > :08:38.able to save their lives. But we are saying this. But the Government

:08:39. > :08:42.knows this. The Government knows the great value of stem cell

:08:43. > :08:46.transplantation not least because it's put the money where all or

:08:47. > :08:52.mouths have been over a number of years. Firstly in the source of this

:08:53. > :09:00.transplantation in relation to core blood stem cells. Since 2010, some

:09:01. > :09:05.?20 million of taxpayers' money has been invested quite rightly in

:09:06. > :09:11.improving the provision of tell cells, including umbilical core

:09:12. > :09:21.blood. The last debate we had in relation to this issue was on 15th

:09:22. > :09:27.accept in 2015 when my honourable friend from Mid Norfolk responded to

:09:28. > :09:31.a debate from similar to one of the honourable members today, a debate

:09:32. > :09:36.about the national stem cell transplantation trials network.

:09:37. > :09:40.These were his words. Stem cell transplantation is a life saving

:09:41. > :09:45.treatment that plays a key role in the treatment of leukaemia and some

:09:46. > :09:50.other diseases. That is the basis of our plea to the minister and NHS

:09:51. > :09:56.England today. That what we all have come to know over the years and

:09:57. > :10:02.indeed, the very real life examples here and family members here today,

:10:03. > :10:07.that we recognise and have been urging and am very pleased to see

:10:08. > :10:12.the Government very much investing in core blood collections, in

:10:13. > :10:18.wanting to ensure and join with us the ambition of a national stem cell

:10:19. > :10:25.transplantation trial network. The minister then was talking about how

:10:26. > :10:32.there had been work we've recognised today of the Anthony Nolan and NHS

:10:33. > :10:37.Blood and Transplant, great partnership working, talking about

:10:38. > :10:44.how the Government's worked very hard in supporting, directly funding

:10:45. > :10:48.a unified registry. How there's the trials acceleration programme

:10:49. > :10:54.providing additional qualitiry rewe have been which helps provide the

:10:55. > :10:59.outcome -- reseven which helps provide the outcome. There's been

:11:00. > :11:05.four new blood and transplant units in 2015. There's been the

:11:06. > :11:09.recognition about the shortage in relation particularly to black,

:11:10. > :11:13.Asian and minority ethnic groups. How, because of the targeted

:11:14. > :11:19.recruitment, there's been an improvement in their life chances,

:11:20. > :11:26.so going up from 40% to 60% and how the residue now of core blood banks

:11:27. > :11:32.of what was some 12,000 back in 2015 has enabled there to be much greater

:11:33. > :11:37.opportunities of providing quicker and easier transplantation. That is

:11:38. > :11:41.what it is all about. That context is important when we're looking at