25/01/2017

:00:00. > :00:17.Why to all the false start -- Point of order. I think we should build a

:00:18. > :00:24.sense of anticipation so I will take the point of order from the oral

:00:25. > :00:29.lady. Thank you, on Friday, just 58 minutes before the house rose when

:00:30. > :00:39.the organisation was being watched across the pond. -- in operation.

:00:40. > :00:44.The TWDC al on the DL with regards to child policy. Never a number of

:00:45. > :00:50.concessions, not nearly enough. -- not nearly enough. DWP. Do give

:00:51. > :00:58.families convert. I seek clarification from the leader DWP of

:00:59. > :01:00.if there was any intention of informing the palace at this matter

:01:01. > :01:06.or should we should be left to conclude that this news would be

:01:07. > :01:10.caught up in the avalanche of appalling policies emanating from

:01:11. > :01:17.the White house. The usual answer is no however I generally wish to thank

:01:18. > :01:21.the honourable lady from giving me notice of her point of order. I am

:01:22. > :01:25.aware, as other members will be, that she has a long-standing

:01:26. > :01:28.interest in this sensitive if you. That said, I must tell the

:01:29. > :01:34.honourable lady that I have received no notice from ministers of any

:01:35. > :01:38.intention to make a statement in the house on this subject. That is a

:01:39. > :01:44.judgment call them rather than for me. I'm sure her words will have

:01:45. > :01:54.been heard on the Treasury bench, not weak by a senior weight upon who

:01:55. > :02:00.I trust we can rely to and they sentiments to those who should head

:02:01. > :02:07.on. -- whip. We believe that an, having built up anticipation. C Ian

:02:08. > :02:14.Paisley. Control of Smoke Pollution Act let us hair. Thank you for

:02:15. > :02:18.preserving meat. The Leader of the Opposition said a police officer was

:02:19. > :02:26.shot dead at the weekend in Belfast. It was corrected by the member for

:02:27. > :02:30.north Belfast, that is not thankfully the case, thank God, but

:02:31. > :02:35.for the family and for police officers generally, can we have

:02:36. > :02:40.corrected by the front bench spokesman as urgently as possible so

:02:41. > :02:45.the racket of this hostile not contain the delirious fact that a

:02:46. > :02:52.police officer was murdered in Belfast. I am grateful, and I

:02:53. > :02:56.benefit from advise in these matters. They advice I have just

:02:57. > :03:01.received, there is my responsibility of whether I accept it or not, is

:03:02. > :03:07.advise I accept that there is no need for any further correction. It

:03:08. > :03:14.was an error all. I recognise what the gentleman said about how

:03:15. > :03:16.upsetting that will be, but it was a mistake. It has subsequently been

:03:17. > :03:22.corrected and the honourable gentleman has now, quite properly,

:03:23. > :03:29.use the opportunity of a point of order to correct it. I didn't think

:03:30. > :03:32.anything further needs to be said. The honourable gentleman is a wily

:03:33. > :03:41.character and he has found his salvation. Point of order, Mr Bob

:03:42. > :03:44.Blackman. You will be aware that members from across the house have

:03:45. > :03:50.the opportunity to sign a book of commitment for Holocaust Memorial

:03:51. > :03:53.Day. I am pleased to say that more than 200 honourable and right

:03:54. > :03:58.honourable members have signed the book but that does mean more than

:03:59. > :04:02.400 have-nots. Who I come through your good offices, drawn to the

:04:03. > :04:09.attention of the house that the book is available at the bottom of the

:04:10. > :04:13.member staircase between GBM and 40 PM. At is a very helpful notice. No

:04:14. > :04:17.disrespect to the honourable gentleman because it is very helpful

:04:18. > :04:21.for honours, but it had already been planned by my office that I would

:04:22. > :04:25.sign the great Glen I leave the chair Tuesday, and I certainly

:04:26. > :04:30.shall, as I always do. But I think it would be a wonderful thing if all

:04:31. > :04:33.colleagues would take the opportunity to sign the book as the

:04:34. > :04:38.honourable gentleman helpfully suggests. -- today. If there are no

:04:39. > :04:49.further points of order, we come to the ten minute rule motion. Ron

:04:50. > :04:56.Blenkinsop. -- Tom. I want to bring proposals for onshore power stations

:04:57. > :05:05.50 megawatts or less to adhere to the terms of the engineering

:05:06. > :05:08.industry and requiring circumstances to connect purposes. Our clients

:05:09. > :05:12.which produce this e-mail what's below are not subject to the terms

:05:13. > :05:17.of national planning consent. Instead, plans including those which

:05:18. > :05:21.produce energy from waste are regulated by the plan and talent

:05:22. > :05:24.governing act 1990. This was supposed to give power to local

:05:25. > :05:29.people for development in their locality but it has created

:05:30. > :05:31.loopholes and uncover scrupulous employers seeking to exploit

:05:32. > :05:38.construction workers working on these plants. This is because the

:05:39. > :05:44.terms and conditions have not been adhered to for allegations of 50

:05:45. > :05:54.megawatts or less. I brought this in 2015, but my friend Max from several

:05:55. > :05:58.areas and unions know this problem still exists today, even though they

:05:59. > :06:04.agreed with me last time and do still. Some of these validations are

:06:05. > :06:07.using deliberately confusing contracts to employ workers on bogus

:06:08. > :06:11.self-employment terms. Exploiting migrant workers so that rather than

:06:12. > :06:20.paying local workers the national industry agreement rate of six and

:06:21. > :06:28.97 per la depending on the accompanying sea level involved. --

:06:29. > :06:36.up to ?6 90 seven per la. -- hour. One of these is a Croatian company,

:06:37. > :06:39.the model is simple, bid for construction, subcontracts from

:06:40. > :06:42.companies that refuse to work in the national agreements terms and then

:06:43. > :06:47.undercut local wages by bringing out their work force workers from

:06:48. > :06:56.Croatia to work operation and wage levels. The same thing was put in

:06:57. > :07:03.place by GMB and Unite when constructing a power station in

:07:04. > :07:11.Yorkshire. As that fell under, the Croatian company was due to pay

:07:12. > :07:16.every penny back to its employees. The employees returned to

:07:17. > :07:19.integration. That is exploitation plain simple and demonstrate the

:07:20. > :07:32.disregard this firm hold for all its employees. Unfortunately, this very

:07:33. > :07:37.firm seeks further employment from a Danish firm and GMB and Unite have

:07:38. > :07:46.tried to tackle this. Particularly in size and in Yorkshire, Wales and

:07:47. > :07:52.Scotland. National is from GMB and Unite have travelled from Denmark

:07:53. > :07:54.and Croatia to inform the appropriate trade unions. Despite

:07:55. > :08:00.their hard work, any real solution to this must come from this house.

:08:01. > :08:04.The exploitation of migrant employees and undercutting British

:08:05. > :08:07.workers has only happened because of the unintended loophole in

:08:08. > :08:14.legislation, namely that trade union negotiating these standards do not

:08:15. > :08:21.need to be complied with in power stations producing less than 50

:08:22. > :08:25.megawatts. This needs to be written into companies of any size on

:08:26. > :08:29.British soil and that's the only way to prevent this undercutting and

:08:30. > :08:34.allow workers of all nationalities to bargain collectively to improve

:08:35. > :08:39.their pay and conditions. In vivo to leave the European Union, members

:08:40. > :08:47.from across this house have attempted to address concerns about

:08:48. > :08:50.immigration. As a nation, we need to address these concerns and take

:08:51. > :08:54.action on loopholes like this one, allowing companies to bring in

:08:55. > :08:58.migrant workers on a temporary basis, exploiting them and

:08:59. > :09:12.undercutting the wages of brick British workers. Instead, where they

:09:13. > :09:14.are able to get work on such sites, namely under confusing contract

:09:15. > :09:20.pricing them are self-employed, making them pay twice as many

:09:21. > :09:24.national insurance contributions to benefit employers. In this case and

:09:25. > :09:29.others, I was leaving the European Union presents both a threat, losing

:09:30. > :09:36.the well intentioned protection against new practices, and an

:09:37. > :09:40.opportunity namely to strengthen those protections to ensure not only

:09:41. > :09:45.are minimum standards are complied with by the industry-standard, too.

:09:46. > :09:49.We do not need to wait until you have left the EU to do so, we can

:09:50. > :09:54.act now, put a stop to doubt the manipulation of migrant workers and

:09:55. > :09:59.undermining of employment standards in the UK. This is an issue which

:10:00. > :10:07.can and should be addressed to maintain integrity of agreements. I

:10:08. > :10:11.raise this with no apology for presenting the bell. The question is

:10:12. > :10:14.that the honourable member B to bring in the bell. As many as are of

:10:15. > :10:19.the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". -- bring in the

:10:20. > :10:26.bill. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We will prepare and bring

:10:27. > :10:29.in the Bill? Said Kevin Barron, Sarah Champion, John Healey, Andy

:10:30. > :10:46.McDonald, Alan Cunningham, Iain Wright and myself.

:10:47. > :11:05.One Blenkinsop. -- GMB and Unite. -- Tom.

:11:06. > :11:11.Town and country planning electricity consent bill. Second

:11:12. > :11:19.reading, what they? Friday 24th of March. Friday 24 of March. We now

:11:20. > :11:31.come to the opposition day motion on prisons in the name of the Leader of

:11:32. > :11:38.the Opposition. To move the motion, I call Mr Richard Berger. Thank you.

:11:39. > :11:44.The last time there was an opposition day debate on prisons, it

:11:45. > :11:47.was nary one year ago to the very day. Back then, as honourable

:11:48. > :11:52.members will recall, my honourable friend from Hammersmith opened the

:11:53. > :11:57.debate for the opposition. He told the house that the inescapable

:11:58. > :12:02.conclusion is that the prison system in this country is not working,

:12:03. > :12:11.contrary to the famous announcement of the level nor talent. Well, one

:12:12. > :12:19.year on -- noble lord Hallett. This remains inescapable. -- Howard. Just

:12:20. > :12:27.the secretaries have cut front line prison officers by over 6000. It was

:12:28. > :12:30.the political decision to impose austerity on the nation and on our

:12:31. > :12:39.prison services that brought ours to this point. Married with an erratic

:12:40. > :12:45.prisons policy veering further in this way and then that way. First,

:12:46. > :12:52.the Right Honourable and alternate member from Rushcliffe wanted to

:12:53. > :12:56.reduce prison numbers. -- GMB and Unite. He was fact. Then the member

:12:57. > :13:02.for Epsom and Ewell to gain very authoritarian line, introducing

:13:03. > :13:05.benchmarking. -- learned. As well as a book banning. Those of which

:13:06. > :13:14.failed. Next, the honourable member forcibly Heath wanted to

:13:15. > :13:20.decentralise and hand... And the current Justice Secretary wants a

:13:21. > :13:25.little bit of policy from each, prison policy la carte. The number

:13:26. > :13:30.of prisoners officers were cut with no check on the number of people

:13:31. > :13:39.being imprisoned. The effect of this ought to have been obvious.

:13:40. > :13:43.Imprisoning more people and deciding they can afford. In the 12 months to

:13:44. > :13:51.June 2016, there were 105 self-inflicted deaths. Nearly double

:13:52. > :13:58.the number five years previously. An all-time high. I will give way.

:13:59. > :14:05.Might I draw his attention to the select committee report which

:14:06. > :14:08.advocated that to try and cut the cycle of prisoners reoffending, it

:14:09. > :14:14.would be good to try and provide employment for them, particularly by

:14:15. > :14:16.reducing national insurance contributions to employers. While it

:14:17. > :14:21.is not a silver bullet, it would play some part in reducing pressure

:14:22. > :14:27.on prisons if such a policy was adopted. I want to thank my

:14:28. > :14:30.honourable friend for his intervention and that is a very

:14:31. > :14:36.valuable points he makes with rehabilitation, a subject I will

:14:37. > :14:43.turn. I will give way to the Right Honourable and learned gentleman. He

:14:44. > :14:46.is quite right in that he set out to acknowledge the serious crisis in

:14:47. > :14:51.the prisons which are overcrowded, slums and weeding grounds for crime.

:14:52. > :15:00.He set out the interesting range of options for tackling it, but his

:15:01. > :15:03.motion nearly concentrates on the prison officers Association answer

:15:04. > :15:07.which is to spend more money and hire more prison officers, probably

:15:08. > :15:13.improving their pay and conditions. Does he have any views on the range

:15:14. > :15:18.of options which include reducing the number of prisoners by

:15:19. > :15:22.addressing foolish policies so you got room for the rehabilitation

:15:23. > :15:27.policies that the honourable member for Birkenhead has just recommended?

:15:28. > :15:37.I thank my honourable friend for that constructive contribution.

:15:38. > :15:41.There is far more than just talking about the issue of staffing and the

:15:42. > :15:46.issue of sentencing and numbers will be touched upon later in my speech,

:15:47. > :15:53.if I can make some progress. I will give way to my honourable friend.

:15:54. > :15:59.They thank you for giving way. There are too many people in our prisons

:16:00. > :16:10.mental health conditions or should not be there. Dean Saunders, one of

:16:11. > :16:14.113 people, took his own life in one of our prisons as last year. The

:16:15. > :16:17.outcome of the inquest that he should never have been there in the

:16:18. > :16:24.first place. I share my right honourable friend

:16:25. > :16:30.was my concern is that she raised injustice questions. I will deal

:16:31. > :16:33.with that later in my comments. When the number of offices were caught

:16:34. > :16:41.with no check on the numbers of people being imprisoned it should've

:16:42. > :16:47.been obvious. They are in prison more people. There were three and 45

:16:48. > :16:54.deaths in custody last year, in the same period serious assault on

:16:55. > :16:58.people increased by 146% and instances of self harm increased by

:16:59. > :17:03.more than 10,000. Within the spends of just the few weeks they were

:17:04. > :17:11.prison dryers, prison riots in Lincoln, in Lewis Campbell in

:17:12. > :17:19.Bedford and in moorland. In December, HMP Birmingham saw what

:17:20. > :17:23.many described as the worst riots at the category B prison since strange

:17:24. > :17:30.ways of quarter of this century ago. I will give way. I thank the

:17:31. > :17:33.honourable gentleman. A lot of this criticism is predicated on the

:17:34. > :17:38.concept of austerity under this government but surely he will

:17:39. > :17:44.concede that under the last Labour government in much more benign

:17:45. > :17:52.economic circumstances, his party under the end of custody licence

:17:53. > :17:57.scheme release dated 2000 prisoners. Over 1200 were caught reoffending.

:17:58. > :18:05.It was still mismanagement of the prison estate.

:18:06. > :18:10.The prison system has never been perfect but what I will say is under

:18:11. > :18:14.a Labour government there was not April is in crisis. Under this

:18:15. > :18:20.Conservative government that is in prison crisis and I must make some

:18:21. > :18:26.progress. I have been generous with my interventions. The members want

:18:27. > :18:29.to speak in this debate. In relation to Birmingham come it took 13

:18:30. > :18:36.Tornado teams over 12 hours to regain control. Some put the

:18:37. > :18:41.estimates of the damage at ?2 million. The ministry was warned

:18:42. > :18:45.back in October that urgent action was required in relation to staff

:18:46. > :18:50.worries about their personal safety. It remains unclear whether the

:18:51. > :18:56.ministry did anything at all. Last October, in an unprecedented

:18:57. > :18:59.intervention... I will give way. On that points come easy as wooded

:19:00. > :19:03.as I am that not only have we seen each huge reduction in the numbers

:19:04. > :19:08.of dozen officers but that is deliberate strategy to get the more

:19:09. > :19:11.experienced, more expensive prison officers to stand down, to retire to

:19:12. > :19:17.replace them with cheap apprentices, graduates coming in. That is the

:19:18. > :19:21.real lack of experience in our prison sector as well as the

:19:22. > :19:26.dangerous lack of numbers. My honourable friend makes the vital

:19:27. > :19:31.point. We have got eight dangerous cocktail of experienced prisoners in

:19:32. > :19:35.prison and experienced prison officers leaving prison. That is not

:19:36. > :19:41.good for safety and that is not good for the service. I really must make

:19:42. > :19:46.some progress I am afraid. In wake of these riots the Justice Secretary

:19:47. > :19:51.Toby has yesterday that more tornado staff are being trained. She expects

:19:52. > :19:56.more trouble and things to get worse before they get better. The list of

:19:57. > :20:03.problems the ministry has to content with his long. Overcrowding,

:20:04. > :20:06.understaffing, lack of safety, the quality of delivery from privatised

:20:07. > :20:13.probation services, drugs, and drones. In nearly 4000 IAPP

:20:14. > :20:22.prisoners who are still in jail way past their tireless. One prisoner

:20:23. > :20:27.officer told me the situation in our prison service is like eight game of

:20:28. > :20:31.Django. It feels we are on the brink of the final piece been removed and

:20:32. > :20:39.the whole thing coming crashing down around us. He did not say that

:20:40. > :20:44.likely. We have government the 's's White Paper which has a mixed

:20:45. > :20:49.reception from those with experience and expertise in the penal system

:20:50. > :20:55.and penal reform. I need to make some progress. Nearly all of these

:20:56. > :21:01.problems stem from the acting of eight quarters of prison staff since

:21:02. > :21:05.2010. The Justice Secretary's colleague, the honourable member for

:21:06. > :21:12.Gainsborough, as the Justice Secretary yesterday if she thought

:21:13. > :21:16.this cult was wise. The Justice Secretary did not answer, she has

:21:17. > :21:28.the opportunity to answer today. I will give way. I stand by that, we

:21:29. > :21:32.all want more prison officers. Camden future Labour government

:21:33. > :21:35.recruit all these prison officers? The future Labour government will

:21:36. > :21:41.not treat our hard-working, hard-pressed prison officers as the

:21:42. > :21:46.enemy. I hear the drawers of disapproval from the government

:21:47. > :21:50.benches, anybody would think they were presiding over the successful

:21:51. > :21:54.prison service. Anyone would think there was it prison crisis. The

:21:55. > :21:58.government benches would listen rather than draw at me and I would

:21:59. > :22:04.be grateful. I need to make some progress, I am afraid. The ambition

:22:05. > :22:10.set out in the White Paper to increase staffing levels is welcome.

:22:11. > :22:15.But 2500 officers represents less than half of the number of prison

:22:16. > :22:23.officers cut by conservative Justice Secretary 's since 2010. To get 2500

:22:24. > :22:28.extra officers come 8000 officers will have to be recruited in two

:22:29. > :22:33.years. I wonder if the Justice Secretary has confidence that will

:22:34. > :22:37.happen. I, Mr Speaker, do not come across many in the justice sector

:22:38. > :22:46.who think it more than eight pipe dream under her management. In the

:22:47. > :22:51.year September 2016, the Secretary of State had 400 fewer officers. It

:22:52. > :22:55.is the crisis in staff retention. They are leaving more quickly than

:22:56. > :22:58.the Secretary of State can recruit them. The prison officers

:22:59. > :23:05.Association membership has rejected eight pay deal offered by the

:23:06. > :23:08.government. What plans has the Secretary of State made to improve

:23:09. > :23:14.the offer and begin to make these jobs more attractive to the public?

:23:15. > :23:19.At present she faces in recruitment drive which is in danger of having

:23:20. > :23:26.failed before it has begun. Announcements, for example, the

:23:27. > :23:31.ex-servicemen personnel might grab quick headlines but in truth it is

:23:32. > :23:36.nothing new. They have always been former members of our armed services

:23:37. > :23:40.taking jobs in our prison service. The role of soldier and the Royal of

:23:41. > :23:45.prison officer aren't exactly the same, by the way. Prison officers

:23:46. > :23:50.who have been in the Army have told me that with the six issue of state

:23:51. > :23:56.must explain how she can converse is for the fact so many experienced

:23:57. > :24:03.officers have life and are leaving our prison service. Overseeing its

:24:04. > :24:06.transformation to the prison estate populated by more experienced

:24:07. > :24:11.prisoners and more inexperienced prison officers present eight clear

:24:12. > :24:16.and present danger. Inadequate staffing levels have the range of

:24:17. > :24:20.consequences. Prisons are less safe. Staff are far less outnumbered.

:24:21. > :24:24.Prisoners spent more time in their cells since they cannot be managed

:24:25. > :24:30.outside. Prisoner frustration is further heightened by lack of time

:24:31. > :24:35.out of their cells. I will give way. I am most grateful

:24:36. > :24:45.and commend him on his excellent speech. Dirty agree with me that one

:24:46. > :24:50.way we can reduce the present population is if the government make

:24:51. > :24:54.better progress in the transfer of foreign national offenders. At the

:24:55. > :24:58.moment there are 10,000 foreign national offenders in our prisons

:24:59. > :25:06.representing 12% of the population. They signed agreements but very few

:25:07. > :25:12.prisoners get sent back. I thank my honourable friend for

:25:13. > :25:14.making that important point. Injustice questions yesterday, the

:25:15. > :25:20.secretary said he was in discussions with the Brexit department about

:25:21. > :25:25.that and we do need to hear more about the progress of those

:25:26. > :25:30.discussions. The Justice Secretary frequently buys to the emergence of

:25:31. > :25:37.new psychoactive substances as factor in the current crisis. Does

:25:38. > :25:41.she know that in Scotland where prison policy has been stable for

:25:42. > :25:45.some years, where staffing has remained constant, there hasn't been

:25:46. > :25:51.the rocketing of Ireland, the House has been seen across the rest of our

:25:52. > :26:01.prison estate. They have NPS issues but they David axe staff. Our

:26:02. > :26:05.prisons are overcrowded. Prison in my city of Leeds holds twice the

:26:06. > :26:09.number of prisoners that is built to House. Wandsworth, Swansea, Brixton

:26:10. > :26:16.and Leicester are not far behind. All full to capacity with another

:26:17. > :26:24.50% on top. We need, this'll be the final time I will way...

:26:25. > :26:30.He knows I hold him in high esteem. Lady checker Baty said the shadow

:26:31. > :26:36.Attorney General, she wanted half half the prisoners to be released

:26:37. > :26:45.immediately. Is that Labour's policy?

:26:46. > :26:51.I am not aware of any such policy announcement being made and it is

:26:52. > :26:56.not Labour policy committee not Labour policy. Some strange is the

:26:57. > :27:03.collation is going on from members of the opposite benches. It is not

:27:04. > :27:08.Labour policy to release half of the prisoners. Why in earth would that

:27:09. > :27:13.be the case? But we do need lasting way in which to manage the prison

:27:14. > :27:18.population. Last November the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, appeared

:27:19. > :27:22.before the justice committee. Not surprisingly, he was questioned on

:27:23. > :27:28.the prisons crisis. Lord Thomas offered their view on what could be

:27:29. > :27:33.done. He said the prison population is very, very high at the moment.

:27:34. > :27:37.Whether it will continue to raise is difficult to tell but that I will

:27:38. > :27:42.use it well. I am not sure at the end of the day we can't dispose of

:27:43. > :27:47.more buyers really tough, and they mean tough, community penalties.

:27:48. > :27:55.Prison has always been seen as aid punishment. Person brings that

:27:56. > :27:59.breaks asocial contract and can be imprisoned. Members across this

:28:00. > :28:05.House by see this as befitting sanction. It must be right that

:28:06. > :28:10.where it convicted person is danger to the public, they are kept away

:28:11. > :28:15.from the public until such time they no longer pose threat. The

:28:16. > :28:20.significant minority may never be safe to release. But for some of

:28:21. > :28:24.those who offend, we must ask if prison is the right place for them

:28:25. > :28:30.to be sent. We should ensure we always reflect upon this because if

:28:31. > :28:36.we do not, we find ourselves in the position of the government does now.

:28:37. > :28:39.The warehousing of thousands of people without any support or real

:28:40. > :28:46.access to rehabilitation so when they leave prison as they inevitably

:28:47. > :28:50.will... I will not give way. They are in the same position they were

:28:51. > :28:56.when they entered. They might still be drug dependence, they might be

:28:57. > :29:03.homeless, they might still be in poverty. It is right in fact, Mr

:29:04. > :29:07.Speaker, it is our duty not to be complacent but deflect and ask

:29:08. > :29:10.ourselves if how we deal with at least some of those who break the

:29:11. > :29:17.law working with many offenders it isn't. The stay in present and it is

:29:18. > :29:21.too short for them to learn new skills or to seek qualification, or

:29:22. > :29:26.to stabilise it drug addiction. In recent weeks, I met stakeholders who

:29:27. > :29:32.questioned whether it is worth sending prison that people to prison

:29:33. > :29:39.for a few weeks and officers lament seeing the same people over and over

:29:40. > :29:43.again. It is right, Mr Speaker, when stakeholders, people at the front

:29:44. > :29:48.line and expert raises matters that we take them seriously. We must

:29:49. > :29:51.punish and we must deliver smart sentences as well as strict

:29:52. > :29:56.sentences. Always asking ourselves what is the most effective way of

:29:57. > :30:02.protecting the public. I firmly believe, Mr Speaker, this is an

:30:03. > :30:07.urgent discussion which MPs need to have.

:30:08. > :30:12.Because the amount of questions being shouted out from the

:30:13. > :30:18.opposition makes me wonder is they know what they are providing over.

:30:19. > :30:25.The risks were sending people to prison, particularly for the first

:30:26. > :30:28.time. There's a lass from the Government front bench. The

:30:29. > :30:34.situation in our prisons is not a laughing matter. -- there are

:30:35. > :30:40.laughs. We should take this seriously. We throw people into the

:30:41. > :30:43.prison river and the currents sweep them towards a more drugs and crime

:30:44. > :30:53.than they experienced outside. If we had alleged -- if annotation fails,

:30:54. > :31:00.that is partly to blame. What is the Justice Secretary doing about IPP,

:31:01. > :31:04.imprisonment for public protection services? She needs a scheme to

:31:05. > :31:09.release those who it is safe to release. She shouldn't consider how

:31:10. > :31:14.that is done, perhaps releasing them on a licence period in proportion to

:31:15. > :31:20.their original sentence. In November last year, my honourable friend, the

:31:21. > :31:25.member for Parton, publish the interim findings of his review into

:31:26. > :31:28.the treatment and outcomes for black, Asian and minority ethnic

:31:29. > :31:35.people in the criminal justice system. It's stark findings also

:31:36. > :31:40.have implications for our prisons. It found that for every 100 white

:31:41. > :31:45.women handed gusto deal sentences in the Crown Court for drug offences,

:31:46. > :31:51.227 black women were sentenced to custody. For black men, the figures

:31:52. > :32:09.are one for London burned to 100 white men. These figures ought to be

:32:10. > :32:13.-- 141 in comparison to 100. These findings are travelling in and of

:32:14. > :32:16.themselves but the fact that this is happening disproportionately also

:32:17. > :32:23.adds to the strain on our prison system. These subject of

:32:24. > :32:27.rehabilitation, it is essential to any serious criminal justice system.

:32:28. > :32:31.We are not yet getting it right. The fact is that most people in Britain

:32:32. > :32:35.will one day leave prison and third, if we are to protect the public and

:32:36. > :32:38.keep our unity is that most people in Britain will one day leave prison

:32:39. > :32:40.and third, if we are to protect the public and keep charging energy

:32:41. > :32:42.saved, rehabilitation has to be properly funded and taken seriously

:32:43. > :32:49.by politicians as an aim. It must not be treated as though it's a soft

:32:50. > :32:55.option. Between January and December 2014, 45% of adults released from

:32:56. > :33:00.prison had reoffended within year. There is released from a sentence of

:33:01. > :33:05.less than 12 months, 60% reoffended. At the time, the honourable member

:33:06. > :33:08.threaten and Newell introduced transforming rehabilitation, the

:33:09. > :33:14.probation service was reckoned to be performing well. Many stakeholders

:33:15. > :33:22.issued a warning, against the break-up of the service. As with

:33:23. > :33:23.many MLJ consultations at the time, the public was ignored. The

:33:24. > :33:29.proposals will boost through regardless. Companies received

:33:30. > :33:35.negative reports last year in Derbyshire, Durham and London. The

:33:36. > :33:42.Inspectorate... I will on the very final occasion. I want to thank my

:33:43. > :33:47.honourable friend for giving way and he's making a really powerful case.

:33:48. > :33:53.Does he agree with me that the Government change particularly to

:33:54. > :33:57.probation services, Durham used to have the best in the country, they

:33:58. > :34:00.did an amazing job in trying to rehabilitate prisoners but that has

:34:01. > :34:08.a lass fallen by the wayside because of Government reforms. -- alas. It

:34:09. > :34:12.would be nice to see opposite members take some responsibility for

:34:13. > :34:18.our probation system because it is a disgrace that it's failing anyway it

:34:19. > :34:21.is. I thank my honourable friend for her comments and it's a travesty

:34:22. > :34:28.what has happened to probation services in the area and region that

:34:29. > :34:33.my honourable friend represents. The privatisation has been a disaster.

:34:34. > :34:39.The Inspectorate probation dribble of May 20 16th and that these... I

:34:40. > :34:45.will give way. I promise, the final occasion, I give way. I'm grateful

:34:46. > :34:52.to the honourable gentleman for what he considers being weaknesses and

:34:53. > :34:56.then drawing attention to them. He hasn't come forward with a single

:34:57. > :35:00.positive alternative. Any moment remain to him, well they enlighten

:35:01. > :35:10.you as as to what Labour do other than simply complain. I certainly

:35:11. > :35:14.will do. Just bear with me. The work of the national predation service

:35:15. > :35:18.was considered better in a number of important areas. As I said,

:35:19. > :35:23.privatisation has failed. But it's not just down to the ministry and

:35:24. > :35:25.jubilation to support people will stop if people are leaving prison

:35:26. > :35:31.faced with the same conditions as the four they entered it, this will

:35:32. > :35:38.make any meaningful change difficult. Support is needed. Needed

:35:39. > :35:43.for employment, for housing. One women's prison had inmates leaving

:35:44. > :35:47.with nowhere to live and was hanging out tents and sleeping bags to

:35:48. > :35:51.people when they left. This can't be, can it, a feature of a proper,

:35:52. > :35:58.more than just the system in the fifth richest country in the world?

:35:59. > :36:10.The prison education trust was welcoming the white pepper whilst

:36:11. > :36:13.welcoming the white paper said that we need more than the ability to

:36:14. > :36:20.read and write. If the Government is serious about cutting down

:36:21. > :36:23.reoffending... He shouldn't shout out from a sedentary position. He

:36:24. > :36:29.should shout while standing up. If you forgive me for saying, shouting

:36:30. > :36:33.while standing right next to these the Seager's chair is perhaps not

:36:34. > :36:39.quite the most intelligent action he has undertaken in the course of, so

:36:40. > :36:48.far, gamers auspicious career. Thank you. I didn't take offence when the

:36:49. > :36:51.Government Whip was shouting out, are there any policies? Because I

:36:52. > :36:59.didn't think it was directed at this side of the palace. We are faced

:37:00. > :37:01.with a range of problems, there is who are vulnerable, disabled,

:37:02. > :37:07.homeless, addicted to drugs. Focusing on issues of that kind is

:37:08. > :37:09.essential because they have been victims of austerity. Prisoners are

:37:10. > :37:17.leaving prison with nowhere to sleep. Too many people are in prison

:37:18. > :37:21.with serious mental health problems. MPs rarely break promises, I promise

:37:22. > :37:26.not to take any more interventions. I will break it and allow this one.

:37:27. > :37:33.Thank you for eventually giving way. I'm most honoured. Any opposition

:37:34. > :37:38.motion, they mentioned Lewes prison, it is in special measures, as

:37:39. > :37:41.mentioned yesterday. What he felt to acknowledge is the huge amount of

:37:42. > :37:47.work going in. Not just in a prison officer numbers but other issues,

:37:48. > :37:52.such as the huge rise in sexual offenders, making it hard to manage.

:37:53. > :38:01.I don't share any suggestions as to enable it to help places like Lewes.

:38:02. > :38:06.Tackle the problems. The number of prisoners convicted of historic sex

:38:07. > :38:11.offences increasing has an effect what I would say this, does cutting

:38:12. > :38:14.the number of prison officers by one quarter mitigate this or does it

:38:15. > :38:21.make it worse? It seems to me that the answer to that is quite simple.

:38:22. > :38:30.Before I brought my remarks to conclusion, I really want to turn to

:38:31. > :38:34.my... I wanted... The present Minister has an unfortunate habit of

:38:35. > :38:37.tackling and really inappropriate points, demonstrating it before and

:38:38. > :38:40.now, because I want to talk about the case of Dean Saunders, who

:38:41. > :38:46.tragically deluded suicide in Chelmsford prison. An inquest jury

:38:47. > :38:51.found another errors in his treatment. -- committed suicide.

:38:52. > :38:55.There were recognised health problems but a procedure was not

:38:56. > :38:59.followed to move him to hospital. He was said to be seeking the details

:39:00. > :39:08.of all those cases to see if there was a pattern. The charity, inquest,

:39:09. > :39:11.whose aborted the case said he should never have been in prison in

:39:12. > :39:16.the first place because his death was preventable. -- and his death

:39:17. > :39:21.was preventable. The independent monitoring board report jury

:39:22. > :39:25.findings. What needs to happen is that the ministry must ensure that

:39:26. > :39:33.recommendations of such bodies are acted upon. In conclusion, we need

:39:34. > :39:38.to be tough on crime wherever it is found and we need to protect the

:39:39. > :39:43.public. At the same time, we need to make prisons places were effective

:39:44. > :39:46.rehabilitation is a living, breathing reality. We want people to

:39:47. > :39:50.leave prison and become productive members of society, having left

:39:51. > :39:55.crying behind. At present, when it comes to the prison service, as in

:39:56. > :40:02.relation to so much else, this Government is failing. It's failing

:40:03. > :40:09.prison at, prison inmates and their families, the public. Ultimately,

:40:10. > :40:13.the mess this Government is making of our prison system means it is

:40:14. > :40:21.failing society. I commend this notion to the house. All other. The

:40:22. > :40:25.question is as on the order paper. I can inform the house I have selected

:40:26. > :40:31.the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister to move that

:40:32. > :40:40.amendment I call the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice.

:40:41. > :40:45.Secretary Liz Frost. Truss. Since I have become Justice Secretary, I

:40:46. > :40:48.have been very clear that the of violence in our prisons is too high.

:40:49. > :40:53.We have very worrying levels of self harm and deaths in custody.

:40:54. > :41:00.Tomorrow, we will see further statistics on violence from the

:41:01. > :41:03.period July to September 20 16. The last set of statistics we saw

:41:04. > :41:09.reaffirmed why we need to take immediate action. I have been clear

:41:10. > :41:14.that these problems have been years in the making and will not be fixed

:41:15. > :41:20.in weeks or months. The honourable gentleman in a piece he wrote this

:41:21. > :41:23.morning acknowledged there are no magic fix to the issues and they

:41:24. > :41:30.certainly haven't heard any magic fixes from him today in his speech.

:41:31. > :41:37.I well. There may be no magic fixes but would she agree with the

:41:38. > :41:42.honourable member opposite that the Government pasty ban substances at

:41:43. > :41:44.the request of prison officers and increase the number of prison

:41:45. > :41:53.officers that the honourable lady has outlined. I completely agree

:41:54. > :41:55.with my honourable friend and I'm absolutely determined that they do

:41:56. > :42:04.turn this situation in our prisons around. Unless prisons are places of

:42:05. > :42:07.safety, they cannot be places where offenders can read one. That is why

:42:08. > :42:11.they are taking immediate action, as my honourable friend said, to

:42:12. > :42:17.stabilise security in our prisons, tackle the scourge of drugs, drones

:42:18. > :42:23.and found and it's why we have secure additional funding annually

:42:24. > :42:28.to recruit an extra 2500 prison officers to strengthen our front

:42:29. > :42:33.line and invest in the wider just as reforming. -- phones. I will give

:42:34. > :42:38.way. I'm grateful to her for giving way and is good news that there is

:42:39. > :42:42.additional money for prison officers coming into the service but she is

:42:43. > :42:48.right to say that the scale of violence in our prisons is variable.

:42:49. > :42:54.The reduction, and she must take responsibility, the Government last

:42:55. > :43:03.big responsibility, for the amount you are -- the amount of prison

:43:04. > :43:07.officers we currently have. I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:43:08. > :43:10.point. I have been Claire, we do need extra staff on the front line.

:43:11. > :43:17.There have been a number of issues that have resulted with what we face

:43:18. > :43:24.now. -- clear. The result of psychoactive substances, drones and

:43:25. > :43:32.thousands. We do monitor the number of sickness in our visions to

:43:33. > :43:34.address that issue. -- phones. I thank my honourable friend. Which

:43:35. > :43:38.they agree with me that, in a 30 minute speech, the only concrete

:43:39. > :43:44.analysis given by the spokesman is that there is a monster will link

:43:45. > :43:46.between a staffing and violence? Mess has been contravened by the

:43:47. > :43:51.evidence given to the selling committee by Doctor David Scott at

:43:52. > :43:56.the open University who rejected that link and that there are other,

:43:57. > :44:00.much more complex, societal matters in the prison population and estate.

:44:01. > :44:04.I thank my honourable friend. There are a number of factors,

:44:05. > :44:07.psychoactive drugs is one of them. We do need the proper level of

:44:08. > :44:14.staffing, which we are putting into prisons to make sure prison officers

:44:15. > :44:17.are able to supervise and challenge offenders properly. That is

:44:18. > :44:23.important. It is important, not just for safety, but to reform offenders.

:44:24. > :44:27.I will make a bit of progress and then I will give way to the

:44:28. > :44:30.honourable gentleman. The prison safety and reform White Paper was

:44:31. > :44:34.published last November and its detailed the biggest overhaul of our

:44:35. > :44:39.prisons in a generation to deal with these issues. It is absolutely right

:44:40. > :44:42.that Britons punished people who commit serious crimes by depriving

:44:43. > :44:46.them of their most fundamental liberty but they need to be at

:44:47. > :44:50.places of discipline, hard work and self improvement. It is the only way

:44:51. > :44:53.we will cut real ending and reduce crime in our DVDs. I give way. --

:44:54. > :45:05.communities. Just on the starting point, and I'm

:45:06. > :45:07.trying to be helpful to her in this. Her own bench indicates 89 of the

:45:08. > :45:12.prisons are currently under the staffing level for their own

:45:13. > :45:20.Ministry of Justice target. Could she tell me how many of those

:45:21. > :45:25.prisons are still going to be, under her own benchmarking staffing

:45:26. > :45:29.levels? I will address the specific issue of

:45:30. > :45:33.how we will recruit those additional staff later my comments. All of

:45:34. > :45:36.those prisons will not just only be brought up to the benchmark level,

:45:37. > :45:45.we are increasing staffing levels beyond that benchmark level. We have

:45:46. > :45:49.to recruit and then additional staff, that's part of our plan to

:45:50. > :45:51.recruit 4000 officers this year. I will give way to my honourable

:45:52. > :45:56.friend and then make more progress with my speech.

:45:57. > :46:04.HMP Lewes has mentioned in the motion by the opposition today, and

:46:05. > :46:07.yet I've not heard the Secretary of State has visited the prison and

:46:08. > :46:12.dismisses the effect of having high numbers of sexual offenders in the

:46:13. > :46:15.prison. That does affect retention of prison staff and to dismiss it

:46:16. > :46:19.out of hand shows a lack of experience and knowledge of what is

:46:20. > :46:22.happening in our prisons. My honourable friend is absolutely

:46:23. > :46:27.right. I'm going to come onto the issue of the prison population later

:46:28. > :46:34.in my speech, and specifically address the issue sex offenders.

:46:35. > :46:43.Very quickly. I must say I rather assumed you

:46:44. > :46:47.would give way. Sir Simon Burns. May I ask, given how welcome it is,

:46:48. > :46:54.the extra prison officers that she is proposing to recruit, as a

:46:55. > :47:00.short-term stopgap, I understand it takes about nine months to fully

:47:01. > :47:05.train a new prison officer. Would it be sensible to relax or give more

:47:06. > :47:11.powers to governors so that they could bring back into work retired,

:47:12. > :47:19.experienced prison officers on short-term contracts.

:47:20. > :47:22.My honourable friend is absolutely right in that assessment and we are

:47:23. > :47:25.indeed doing that. We're bringing back from prison officers on a

:47:26. > :47:29.temporary basis. I'm now going to move on to what

:47:30. > :47:33.we're doing on recruitment and retention because that is the most

:47:34. > :47:38.important issue we face, as a prison service. We will not achieve our

:47:39. > :47:42.aims of reform if we don't have enough officers, and also if we

:47:43. > :47:46.don't train the officers, have proper career devilment, to make

:47:47. > :47:51.sure we make the most of our workforce. -- career development. In

:47:52. > :47:54.October we announced our plans to recruit an extra 4000 staff in ten

:47:55. > :48:01.of our most challenging prisons. I'm pleased to say we have made 389 job

:48:02. > :48:05.offers by the end of March, head of target on that front. We have

:48:06. > :48:11.recently launched a graduate scheme, called Unblocked, to attract the

:48:12. > :48:17.top, talented graduates. We had over 1000 expressions of interest in this

:48:18. > :48:22.scheme and within 24 hours we had 350 graduates from Russell group

:48:23. > :48:28.universities applying to the scheme. So this idea people don't want to do

:48:29. > :48:32.the job I think isn't right. I think there are a lot of people out there

:48:33. > :48:35.who want to reform offenders and get involved in helping us turning

:48:36. > :48:39.around our prison service. I think we need to talk up the job of being

:48:40. > :48:44.a prison officer, because it is incredibly important. One prison

:48:45. > :48:51.officer described themselves to me as a parent, a social worker, a

:48:52. > :48:54.teacher, and what could be more important from turning somebody from

:48:55. > :48:58.a life of crime to someone who will contribute to society? What we're

:48:59. > :49:03.finding is when we go out and recruit, a lot of people are

:49:04. > :49:07.interested in this role. Of course we have do retain a fantastic prison

:49:08. > :49:10.officers. I want to quit the honourable gentleman. 80% of our

:49:11. > :49:15.staff have been with us longer than five years. So the idea we don't

:49:16. > :49:20.have a strong depth of prison officers is wrong. We need to make

:49:21. > :49:23.sure they have the career opportunities and the promotion

:49:24. > :49:28.opportunities, that's why we're looking at expanding senior grades

:49:29. > :49:32.in the service, why were looking at promoting our existing staff, but

:49:33. > :49:34.also giving them a career ladder, so they have opportunities to train on

:49:35. > :49:45.the job and get those additional skills they need.

:49:46. > :49:49.We are also giving prison officer governors the right to recruit

:49:50. > :49:53.locally. What that means is the governor can build much more of a

:49:54. > :49:57.relationship with the local community, get people involved, show

:49:58. > :50:01.people what life is really like inside prison and encourage people

:50:02. > :50:04.to work there. These local recruitment job fairs have been

:50:05. > :50:09.really successful. Of course this is challenging. Recruiting 4000 people

:50:10. > :50:13.in one year is challenging. But I think we could do it and we have

:50:14. > :50:17.that opportunity, we are enthusiastic about it, we have the

:50:18. > :50:21.budget to do it for the first time in a number of years, I will give

:50:22. > :50:23.way to the honourable gentleman. That is absolutely right on one of

:50:24. > :50:27.the things that has been very much welcomed in Bedford is the

:50:28. > :50:32.opportunity for the governor to do more proactive recruiting. Does she

:50:33. > :50:36.find it interesting that in her amendment she talks about

:50:37. > :50:40.decentralising authority to prison governors, something completely

:50:41. > :50:46.missed by the Labour Party? I completely agree with my honourable

:50:47. > :50:50.friend, because we do need to give prison governors the power over what

:50:51. > :50:54.happens in that own prison, deciding the regimes they operate, deciding

:50:55. > :51:00.the staffing structures, motivating and recruiting their own team. But

:51:01. > :51:03.also being able to have more say over how lives are turned around.

:51:04. > :51:08.One example is giving them the power over their education providers.

:51:09. > :51:12.We're going to prison governors to account, in terms of how people are

:51:13. > :51:15.improving in English and maths, how successful they are getting

:51:16. > :51:19.offenders off drugs, which we know can help lead to rehabilitation, how

:51:20. > :51:22.successful they are in getting offenders into work when they leave

:51:23. > :51:26.prison, so there are encouraged to work with local employers and setup

:51:27. > :51:30.apprenticeships. We need to give them the levers to do that, we need

:51:31. > :51:35.to give them the responsibility. We are also working on leadership

:51:36. > :51:38.training, so they have to skills and capabilities to take on those extra

:51:39. > :51:43.responsibilities. It is the only way we are going to turn lives around,

:51:44. > :51:46.because the fact is, whatever I do in Ministry of Justice and whatever

:51:47. > :51:50.my civil servants do, they are not the people on the ground in the

:51:51. > :51:54.wings, talking to prisoners Day in and day out. It's those people are

:51:55. > :51:58.going to turn rides around. That's why we need motivated staff, we need

:51:59. > :52:02.governors who are empowered to do that job and that is what our

:52:03. > :52:05.reforms will achieve. -- turn lives around.

:52:06. > :52:11.I think the whole house would actually sympathise her and support

:52:12. > :52:15.her in the area specifically about the morale of prison officers. When

:52:16. > :52:24.the gentleman from Aldershot and I were presidents prison officers

:52:25. > :52:29.together at Dartmouth, prison officers that they were out of sight

:52:30. > :52:37.and out of mind. We felt no one had interest in their weapons and it

:52:38. > :52:45.went catastrophically wrong. -- -- in them. With the right honourable

:52:46. > :52:51.lady agree we should show them they are not out of sight and out of mind

:52:52. > :52:57.and we do care? Perhaps the scheme to bring back

:52:58. > :53:01.former prison officers into service. He might be part of that. He could

:53:02. > :53:08.be a shining beacon, he could be a shining beacon.

:53:09. > :53:12.I am so reluctant to disabuse the honourable lady and to disappoint

:53:13. > :53:18.her, however the honourable member of Aldershot and I were only

:53:19. > :53:23.temporarily in Aldershot for a television documentary called At The

:53:24. > :53:28.Sharp End. In any case we are setting up a

:53:29. > :53:31.Parliamentary scheme, specifically to work more closely with prison

:53:32. > :53:35.officers and give them the kudos that they deserve, because they do

:53:36. > :53:40.an incredibly important job, often behind walls. What I want to see

:53:41. > :53:44.with the reform programme is more reaching out into the local

:53:45. > :53:48.community, working with local employers, because as the opposition

:53:49. > :53:53.spokesman said, ultimately the vast majority of people in prison one day

:53:54. > :53:56.going to be on the outside, they are going to be part of the local

:53:57. > :54:01.community and we need to on that. But whilst we are putting in place

:54:02. > :54:06.our long-term, long and medium-term measures to get the additional staff

:54:07. > :54:10.in to reform our prisons, we are also taking immediate action to

:54:11. > :54:14.improve security and stability across the estate, which includes

:54:15. > :54:19.extra CCTV, deployment of national resources and regular task force

:54:20. > :54:25.chaired by the prison meeting officer. He holds regular meetings

:54:26. > :54:30.which allows us to react quickly to emerging problems are provide

:54:31. > :54:33.immediate support to governors on anything from transferring difficult

:54:34. > :54:37.prisoners to speeding up the repair of damaged facilities. A number of

:54:38. > :54:42.honourable friends have talked about the issue of psychoactive substance,

:54:43. > :54:46.which has proved a game changer in the prison system as the prison and

:54:47. > :54:50.probation ombudsman acknowledged. In September we rolled out new

:54:51. > :54:54.mandatory drugs test the psychoactive drugs to all prisons

:54:55. > :55:01.and have increased the number of search dogs and train them to find

:55:02. > :55:04.legal highs. We are working with mobile phone operators to stop

:55:05. > :55:08.illicit phones, which we are trialling in three prisons and we

:55:09. > :55:13.have specific powers to block phones being used.

:55:14. > :55:19.Would she give way? I'm very grateful. I'm disappointed she

:55:20. > :55:22.hasn't mentioned the impact of automatic release halfway through

:55:23. > :55:25.sentence on the behaviour of prisoners. Surely if someone isn't

:55:26. > :55:30.prison for six years may know by law they will be released after three,

:55:31. > :55:34.irrespective of how badly they fade in prison, surely that has had a

:55:35. > :55:37.negative impact on the behaviour all levels in prison, that if they

:55:38. > :55:41.didn't know if they were going to be released and maybe go the full term

:55:42. > :55:45.unless they behave in prison, is the Secretary of State going to address

:55:46. > :55:49.a particular issue? Clearly if people don't behave well

:55:50. > :55:53.or misbehave they will receive additional days. That is an

:55:54. > :55:59.important part of the lever that governors have, in terms of being

:56:00. > :56:04.able to reform offenders. I was talking about security issues,

:56:05. > :56:07.and we are also working to deal with drones and we are rolling out body

:56:08. > :56:12.worn cameras across the estate. We've also got plans and we're

:56:13. > :56:17.working on dealing with organised crime gangs, with a new national

:56:18. > :56:22.intelligence unit. A number of honourable members have talked about

:56:23. > :56:25.mental health. We are investing in specialist mental health training

:56:26. > :56:29.for prison officers, to help reduce the worrying levels of self harm and

:56:30. > :56:37.suicide in our prisons. In particular we know the early days in

:56:38. > :56:39.custody artistically critical to mental health and keeping people

:56:40. > :56:44.safe. -- in custody are particularly critical.

:56:45. > :56:49.I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. As she will

:56:50. > :56:53.know, a lot of women in our prisons have severe mental health problems

:56:54. > :56:58.and have also been subject to a lot of abuse in their lives. Can she say

:56:59. > :57:02.why there is so little about women in the white paper and also what

:57:03. > :57:05.she's doing, and what her department is doing to implement the

:57:06. > :57:09.recommendations of the Corston report?

:57:10. > :57:14.I thank the honourable lady for her question. We are working at the

:57:15. > :57:20.moment on a strategy for winning offenders, that also deals with how

:57:21. > :57:25.we look after women who are on community sentences, as well as

:57:26. > :57:27.custodial sentences. What I want to see is more early intervention,

:57:28. > :57:31.dealing with some of those issues that lead to people reoffending,

:57:32. > :57:34.such as mental health than drugs issues. We are working on that at

:57:35. > :57:42.the moment and we'll be announcing further plans on that in the summer.

:57:43. > :57:45.We are in investing and additional 2500 staff across the prison estate,

:57:46. > :57:49.but we also changing the way we deploy those staff. There is more

:57:50. > :57:56.opportunity for prison officers to engage with offenders, to challenge

:57:57. > :58:02.them and also support them, in terms of them reforming themselves. Very

:58:03. > :58:06.briefly. Can I put to hurt the question I put

:58:07. > :58:09.to the Shadow Lord Chancellor, the issue of foreign national offenders.

:58:10. > :58:14.She will know that an easy way to reduce the number of people in our

:58:15. > :58:17.prisons is to follow through on the excellent work done by her

:58:18. > :58:22.distinguished predecessors, who are both in the House today, the members

:58:23. > :58:25.for Rushcliffe and Surrey Heath, in signing these agreements to send

:58:26. > :58:29.people back to their countries of origin. Why did she think progress

:58:30. > :58:34.has been so slow? I thank the honourable gentleman for

:58:35. > :58:37.his comments. I'm pleased to say a record number of foreign national

:58:38. > :58:41.offenders were deported in the last year, so we are making progress, but

:58:42. > :58:45.we recognise there is more work to do. My honourable friend the prisons

:58:46. > :58:54.minister is leading across government task force on this issue.

:58:55. > :58:57.Going back to the work of the 2500 new prison officers on the way we

:58:58. > :59:02.are changing the role of prison officers, what we want to do by

:59:03. > :59:07.recruiting these new staff is making sure that every prison officer has a

:59:08. > :59:11.caseload of no more than six offenders who they can challenge and

:59:12. > :59:14.support. That is the way we have built up our staffing model, making

:59:15. > :59:19.sure we have sufficient prison officers to be able to do that.

:59:20. > :59:22.Because the one-to-one to sport, dedicated officer is at the heart of

:59:23. > :59:30.how we change our reoffending rates and how we keep our prisoners and

:59:31. > :59:34.our prison officers say. The right honourable gentleman, the honourable

:59:35. > :59:39.gentleman talked about the issue of the prison population, although we

:59:40. > :59:42.are still none the wiser about what Labour's prison population policy

:59:43. > :59:51.was after he If we look at the prison population,

:59:52. > :59:55.it has been stable since 2010. We haven't had a rise in the prison

:59:56. > :59:59.population. In fact it went up by 25,000 under Labour. What we're

:00:00. > :00:03.seeing in the prison population, and this comes to the point my

:00:04. > :00:07.honourable friend Reyes, if we are seeing fewer people in prison for

:00:08. > :00:12.short sentences. We are 9000 fewer shorter sentences given out every

:00:13. > :00:16.year but we are seeing a greater number of people in prison,

:00:17. > :00:18.particularly for areas like sex offences, because we are prosecuting

:00:19. > :00:25.more sexual offenders and we have also seen these sentences for sexual

:00:26. > :00:29.offenders considerably increase, which I think is absolutely right,

:00:30. > :00:30.reflecting the serious damage that those individuals have done to their

:00:31. > :00:40.victims. Thank you. All that point, for

:00:41. > :00:43.prisons looking after sex offenders it's much more difficult than the

:00:44. > :00:49.average prison inmates because they have to be segregated and old

:00:50. > :00:55.Victorian prisons do not do that easily. That adds pressure. I think

:00:56. > :01:00.we are doing work specifically on how we deal with sex offenders

:01:01. > :01:03.better and making sure they are on treatment programmes that. Then

:01:04. > :01:11.committing those crimes in the future, which is very important.

:01:12. > :01:18.I'll give way. The one item of policy which the Labour spokesman.

:01:19. > :01:24.On in his speech was the future of the remaining IPP prisoners. There

:01:25. > :01:27.are 4000 of them still in prison years after the sentence was

:01:28. > :01:32.abolished, most of them now beyond their recommended term. Some are

:01:33. > :01:35.dangerous and can't be released but is she addressing the problem of how

:01:36. > :01:39.she can make it easier for the parole board to address these

:01:40. > :01:45.questions, reducing delays, alter the burden of proof says that they

:01:46. > :01:50.are able to release all those where there is no evidence that they pose

:01:51. > :01:59.a serious risk to the public when they are released? I thank my

:02:00. > :02:03.honourable friend. The opposition talked about IPP sentenced prisoners

:02:04. > :02:08.and it was the Labour Party who introduced the IPP sentence as my

:02:09. > :02:11.honourable friend who abolished it, so well done. Well done. We have a

:02:12. > :02:17.legacy with a number of these prisoners built in prison. What I've

:02:18. > :02:21.done is established a IPP unit within the department to deal with

:02:22. > :02:27.the backlog and make sure that we are addressing the issues that those

:02:28. > :02:35.individuals have so that they can be released into society in a Safeway.

:02:36. > :02:46.But we always last sheet public protection. -- safe way. There are

:02:47. > :02:52.some who cannot be released for that reason. I think the Secretary of

:02:53. > :02:57.State will be generous with her time. One of the area is great to me

:02:58. > :03:03.by local police, which is impacting on our prisons, particularly in the

:03:04. > :03:07.psychoactive substance abuse before coming into prison. And there are

:03:08. > :03:14.types of prisoners that are having to be managed are all a different

:03:15. > :03:21.ilk. The kind of addiction is unknown and difficult to quantify.

:03:22. > :03:29.We might have an idea on how difficult that is. My honourable

:03:30. > :03:33.friend is right. It's a very serious issue both in society and prison and

:03:34. > :03:41.we are looking at additional training for prison officers to deal

:03:42. > :03:45.with that. We also have tests to get those prisoners of those substances

:03:46. > :03:53.and prisoner education programmes because they do have a serious and

:03:54. > :03:57.their effects. When it comes to Greenpeace. What I want to do with

:03:58. > :04:01.an Musee sentences is make sure we are addressing mental health issues.

:04:02. > :04:09.-- community sentences. The four people commit crimes because they

:04:10. > :04:14.are too many people coming into our prisons that are of high risk of

:04:15. > :04:18.committing a crime. They need to intervene earlier and that is an

:04:19. > :04:23.effective way of reducing circulation through our prisons.

:04:24. > :04:27.Rather than saying we need to have an arbitrary number that the

:04:28. > :04:32.release. What we need to do is deal with these issues before they become

:04:33. > :04:38.at a level where somebody gets a kiss their team sentence and that is

:04:39. > :04:46.our approach. I'll be saying more about that in due course. To drive

:04:47. > :04:52.forward the reforms I've been talking about, they will have

:04:53. > :04:57.control over budgets of education, staffing structures and be able to

:04:58. > :05:07.set their own prison regime. At the moment, we have a whole plethora of

:05:08. > :05:15.prison rules including how big prisonerbath-mat can be. I'm

:05:16. > :05:23.grateful to my friend Mike. -- honourable friend. Particularly in

:05:24. > :05:26.respect to those with commercial relationships governors can form

:05:27. > :05:33.with companies to give proper work to prisoners. Could she say

:05:34. > :05:36.something about 131 Solutions. My honourable friend must have read my

:05:37. > :05:41.mind because it was only this morning we were talking about 131

:05:42. > :05:49.Solutions as my honourable friend was establishing that organisation.

:05:50. > :05:53.-- instrumental in establishing. This is vital to our reforms and I

:05:54. > :05:57.want people on the inside to be doing jobs, training that leads to

:05:58. > :06:01.work on the outside. We have to start from what jobs are available

:06:02. > :06:05.on the outside and bring those employers into prison. We are

:06:06. > :06:08.looking at how we can develop that. Furthermore, governors will have a

:06:09. > :06:14.very strong incentive because there will be a measurement on how many

:06:15. > :06:19.prisoners secure jobs on the outside but also how they go into

:06:20. > :06:21.apprenticeship is on. What I want to see is offenders starting

:06:22. > :06:26.apprenticeships on the inside that they can then complete on the

:06:27. > :06:31.outside, so there's a seamless transition into work. We've got some

:06:32. > :06:36.fantastic employers working with us, like brakes, Jensen, who I met this

:06:37. > :06:47.morning. But we need more players participating. -- Timpsons. We need

:06:48. > :06:55.to get that across better. -- Greggs. Instead of people going onto

:06:56. > :06:57.benefits, that they go into employment that reduces reoffending.

:06:58. > :07:02.We will launch a strategy any summer that will go into more details

:07:03. > :07:05.about. -- that I will go into more detail about. A number of honourable

:07:06. > :07:12.members have mentioned probation services. In the same way as we are

:07:13. > :07:19.measuring outcomes for prison services, such as employment,

:07:20. > :07:24.housing, education, we also want to see similar measures for probation

:07:25. > :07:30.services, so we make sure that, when people are in the community, they

:07:31. > :07:34.are also being encouraged into activities, god of drugs so they are

:07:35. > :07:39.less likely to reoffend and we will be saying more about probation in

:07:40. > :07:45.April when we announced our changes to the probation services. It's also

:07:46. > :07:50.difficult, of course, for reform to take in dilapidated buildings, old

:07:51. > :07:55.prisons, overcrowded prisons. That's why they are modernising the prison

:07:56. > :07:59.estate to create 10,000 prison places where reform can flourish.

:08:00. > :08:03.It's a ?1.3 billion investment programme and will reduce

:08:04. > :08:10.overcrowding and replace outdated prisons with modern facilities. As

:08:11. > :08:14.part of this, we are opening new prisons next month that will create

:08:15. > :08:19.over 2000 modern places and we have made announcements about new prisons

:08:20. > :08:25.in Glen Harper and whether brands well. We will make further

:08:26. > :08:41.announcements about new prison capacity is as well -- Glenhaver and

:08:42. > :08:47.Wellingborough. . One of the issues the FA as a society is not having

:08:48. > :08:53.that definition of society. At the moment, the Secretary of State say I

:08:54. > :08:56.am responsible for housing prisoners, but I say it's much more

:08:57. > :09:00.than that. I am responsible for making sure that we are using that

:09:01. > :09:03.time productively while people are in prison to turn their lives around

:09:04. > :09:09.so that they become productive members of society. That is going to

:09:10. > :09:11.be embedded in legislation and it will be accompanied by further

:09:12. > :09:21.measures, including new standards, league tables and governed mint

:09:22. > :09:24.empowerment. -- Government. We will also intervene in failing prisons

:09:25. > :09:29.and with the prison in probation ombudsman on a statutory footing to

:09:30. > :09:33.investigate deaths in custody and the number of statements from

:09:34. > :09:37.honourable member about some of the very tragic deaths in custody that

:09:38. > :09:45.we have seen, and the prison and relation ombudsman performs an truly

:09:46. > :09:48.vital role. -- extremely. The whole house like knowledge there is too

:09:49. > :09:55.much violence and self harm in our prisons. It is right to say we have

:09:56. > :09:57.decade long problems on reoffending. Almost have prisoners reoffend

:09:58. > :10:03.within one-year at a cost of ?15 million to our society and huge cost

:10:04. > :10:09.to the victims who suffer from those crimes. That is why this

:10:10. > :10:12.Government's prison reform agenda is such a priority. It's why we've

:10:13. > :10:18.secured extra funding and we are taking immediate steps to address

:10:19. > :10:22.violence and safety in our prisons. This will be a larger reform, the

:10:23. > :10:28.largest of our prisons in a generation and these issues will not

:10:29. > :10:32.be solved in weeks or months but I'm confident that, over time, we will

:10:33. > :10:35.transform our prisons, reduce reoffending, get prisoners into jobs

:10:36. > :10:46.and away from a life of crime. Thank you. The original question was as on

:10:47. > :10:50.the order as that, since when it was first produced that it is that part

:10:51. > :10:55.of the question. Can I say, we should heavily get everybody in on a

:10:56. > :11:03.seven minute limit and can I call Caroline Flint? Thank you, Mr Deputy

:11:04. > :11:11.Speaker. I have three constituencies. -- three prisons in

:11:12. > :11:20.my constituency. Three very different prisons. One has category

:11:21. > :11:27.C prisoners and we have another with 1000 prisoners in a cat C security

:11:28. > :11:29.prison. We have another prison, a private establishment. Over many

:11:30. > :11:34.years, I visited these prisons and overall I have the say the

:11:35. > :11:39.relationship has been viewed and the community has been assured that

:11:40. > :11:43.whatever is happening in these prisons has not have an adverse

:11:44. > :11:46.affect on the divinity, though we do see a lot of people have bonding

:11:47. > :11:50.from the open establishments. I know this area is very difficult and one

:11:51. > :11:53.of the things I was proudest of when I was Home Office minister was

:11:54. > :11:57.introducing drug testing on arrest for inquisitive crime. We could

:11:58. > :12:02.identify the drug problem leading people to steal and giving them

:12:03. > :12:05.support before they ended up in court. I believe we should do

:12:06. > :12:09.everything we can to address the causes of crime, as well as being

:12:10. > :12:14.dropped when people break the law. The Government has owned up to the

:12:15. > :12:18.problem. In the White Paper, it has been acknowledged that the levels of

:12:19. > :12:29.assault on staff of the highest on record. Comparing June 2012, total

:12:30. > :12:35.assaults are up 64%. Assaults on staff are 99%. Incidents of self

:12:36. > :12:44.harm of 57% deaths in custody at 75%. Prisons are less safe. But also

:12:45. > :12:52.less safe from prisoners as well. -- less safe for staff. A lot of

:12:53. > :12:54.prisoners but the system is failing to rehabilitate and failing to

:12:55. > :12:59.protect the public from further crimes. In November, the Justice

:13:00. > :13:02.Secretary wrote in the Daily Mail, what is Claire is that the system is

:13:03. > :13:09.not working. I'm afraid what is also clear is that on the generation

:13:10. > :13:12.Government what is that the Government is failing, too. --

:13:13. > :13:17.clear. Failing to give care to officers and staff, to prisoners who

:13:18. > :13:26.are more likely to be assaulted in germ cells -- assaulted, injure

:13:27. > :13:29.themselves or others. It is also failing the taxpayer because, in

:13:30. > :13:34.Hanover, the Government have admitted they cost of reoffending

:13:35. > :13:37.?15 billion. If we look in violence in prisons, the latest safety in

:13:38. > :13:45.custody statistics show that, for the year of June September 20 16,

:13:46. > :13:48.over 300 deaths in prison. A doubling of self-inflicted deaths

:13:49. > :13:56.among women prisoners from a very low base, but still important. Up to

:13:57. > :14:03.eight, from four. Over 1000 cases of self harm. That is 400 incidents of

:14:04. > :14:11.self harm to everyone via an prisoners. A staggering rate. Over

:14:12. > :14:15.500 prisoners self harming. Over 2000 hospital attendances with

:14:16. > :14:20.injuries serious enough to require treatment. That places pressure on

:14:21. > :14:23.staff having to escort and leave other staff having to staff a

:14:24. > :14:29.situation in their prisons where there have been reductions in the

:14:30. > :14:37.staffing levels. In the year to June 2016, assault, 23,775 incidents.

:14:38. > :14:44.That is 278 assault for every 1000 prisoners. The thousand 134 series

:14:45. > :14:54.assault, up 32%. This is not a happy situation. -- 3000 134. Whether it

:14:55. > :15:03.is the junior union or for that matter Unite. A prison in my

:15:04. > :15:07.constituency office training to help prisoners get employment when they

:15:08. > :15:10.leave. Little said in employees who, without the right staffing levels,

:15:11. > :15:15.could be on the receiving end of an assault or two. Was disappointed

:15:16. > :15:18.that the Minister didn't meet with community union to discuss the

:15:19. > :15:24.charter for safety operating standards. The union represents many

:15:25. > :15:28.of the staff in prisons and like EPO A, I think they've come up with

:15:29. > :15:31.other constructive, practical suggestions as to how it could be

:15:32. > :15:37.proved. That method that. It worries new that when we set for community

:15:38. > :15:41.union shows that it is common to have one officer on a wing of 60

:15:42. > :15:44.plus inmates. I'd be interested to hear from the Minister and his

:15:45. > :15:48.response what they will do about making sure the end are working

:15:49. > :15:58.better for our prisons. When it comes to the white paper

:15:59. > :16:02.there is much, I think, worth discussing. It outlines improved

:16:03. > :16:10.training for staff, body worn cameras, cognitive skills straining

:16:11. > :16:13.and I agree with all of that, and the governors to have more freedoms,

:16:14. > :16:17.but I have to say to the right honourable lady, in one of my

:16:18. > :16:21.prisons in particular, the turnover of governors over the last decade

:16:22. > :16:25.has been enormous. So we need to make sure we have governors who are

:16:26. > :16:30.able to stay put and put into effect any of the changes they want to be

:16:31. > :16:34.put into practice. But I'm sure she agrees as well, staffing is still

:16:35. > :16:37.key to all of this. Stable staffing where people can work together with

:16:38. > :16:42.prisoners, but also with each other to the best effect. The minister

:16:43. > :16:50.promised 2500 more staff but that will not bring staffing levels back

:16:51. > :16:54.to the 2010 level. The Government claim the 2500 is extra, it is good

:16:55. > :16:59.to have clarity. But in answer to questions at the Justice committee

:17:00. > :17:02.on the 29th of November in 2016, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

:17:03. > :17:07.State referred to the fact this will mean 8000 to be recruited in the

:17:08. > :17:12.next two years which is 1000 per quarter, that is two to three times

:17:13. > :17:23.the rate of the achieved in recent years, which looks a tall task. My

:17:24. > :17:35.prison went from 252 staff to 296. HMP Moreland went from 386 to three

:17:36. > :17:39.54. From 2015-2016 with upwards of 300 to 800 officers recruited per

:17:40. > :17:43.quarter but that has failed to stem the shortfall and we are dealing

:17:44. > :17:47.with an ageing prison population. It is important to look at new ideas

:17:48. > :17:50.about how we can support prisoners and rehabilitate them but without

:17:51. > :17:58.the right numbers of staff in our prisons, I feel that will be a tall

:17:59. > :18:03.task, if not impossible to achieve. It is a real privilege to follow the

:18:04. > :18:07.right honourable lady. She is highly effective advocate for the causes in

:18:08. > :18:11.which he believes was an outstanding minister. When the Labour Party

:18:12. > :18:15.comes to its senses, I hope she will restored to the front bench position

:18:16. > :18:19.she deserves. May I also say congratulations are in order to the

:18:20. > :18:23.Shadow Justice Secretary for securing this debate. It's important

:18:24. > :18:29.have a roof opportunity to reflect on what is happening in our prisons.

:18:30. > :18:33.I am grateful to him for calling this debate but it was a pity that

:18:34. > :18:37.in the course of his remarks, while he understandably drew attention to

:18:38. > :18:41.concerns about what is happening in our prison estate, did not put

:18:42. > :18:46.forward a single positive alternative proposition. The

:18:47. > :18:49.contrast with my right honourable friend the lost Chancellor and

:18:50. > :18:53.Justice Secretary was striking. She has been in office for less than 12

:18:54. > :18:58.months but during that time she has unveiled and advanced a series of

:18:59. > :19:07.reforms which I believe have the potential to transform our justice

:19:08. > :19:10.system more powerfully for the good than any of her predecessors for a

:19:11. > :19:12.generation. And the way in which she dealt so skilfully with

:19:13. > :19:14.interventions and also outlined not just in policy detail but with

:19:15. > :19:20.authority and humanity, what requires to be done underlines how

:19:21. > :19:25.fortunate we are to have a genuine, passionate and humane reform in such

:19:26. > :19:28.an important role. Now, it's quite right and I think

:19:29. > :19:32.almost every speaker in this debate will, paid tribute to those who work

:19:33. > :19:37.in our prisons. I always remember a visit I made to HMP Manchester when

:19:38. > :19:43.I talk to a prison officer who was working with the most difficult

:19:44. > :19:48.prisoners. I asked him why it was he had chosen, deliberately, to work

:19:49. > :19:52.with some of those offenders whose cases were most complex and whose

:19:53. > :19:56.behaviour was most threatening. He explained he'd been brought up in a

:19:57. > :20:01.part of Manchester affected by crime, with unique challenges and

:20:02. > :20:06.one of the things he wanted to do was put something back, to work with

:20:07. > :20:10.offenders, to make sure their were changed, and as a result that people

:20:11. > :20:16.who had been nothing but trouble, people who had been liabilities to

:20:17. > :20:19.society, people who had brought misery and pain into the lives of

:20:20. > :20:25.others, people who were wasting their own lives, could be turned

:20:26. > :20:30.into assets. That we as a society could ensure whatever talents they

:20:31. > :20:34.had, long buried in many cases, could at last be put to the service

:20:35. > :20:38.of the community. I remember being inspired by the fact that this young

:20:39. > :20:41.man from a working-class background had decided that the biggest service

:20:42. > :20:49.he could give to the community that raised him as to try and turn round

:20:50. > :20:53.the lives of others. It's that spirit that is abundant in those who

:20:54. > :20:57.work in our prisons. The frustrations I had in my role, I

:20:58. > :21:00.never for a moment was anything other than grateful for their

:21:01. > :21:05.service, their commitment and their dedication and that is why I'm

:21:06. > :21:11.particularly grateful to my right honourable friend for the steps she

:21:12. > :21:16.has taken to enhance the way those professionals at work in our prisons

:21:17. > :21:20.can do the right thing. Not just the reform governors who are changing

:21:21. > :21:23.the way in which prisons work by exercising a greater degree of

:21:24. > :21:26.control and autonomy over the individual prisons that are there

:21:27. > :21:30.responsible at it, but the way in which those who work on the front

:21:31. > :21:35.line in our wings, particularly but not only in our form prisons, being

:21:36. > :21:39.empowered to take a much more positive role in encouraging and

:21:40. > :21:41.securing rehabilitation. I would like a decree to pay tribute to my

:21:42. > :21:46.right honourable friend for the initiative she has unveiled,

:21:47. > :21:53.unlocked Graduate. As she pointed out more than 350 undergraduates

:21:54. > :21:57.from some of our very best universities have now applied

:21:58. > :22:00.explicitly to work in prisons, just as teach first transformed the

:22:01. > :22:05.reputation of teaching, so this initiative is helping to recruit

:22:06. > :22:13.more people to our prisons. It is also the case that alongside the

:22:14. > :22:16.work of unblocked graduates, prison education is ensuring those in

:22:17. > :22:19.custody at last receive a higher quality of education and the chance

:22:20. > :22:25.to transform their lives for the better. It is also the case that the

:22:26. > :22:28.work of Charlie Taylor in reviewing youth justice is being followed up

:22:29. > :22:33.and implemented by my right honourable friend. And in so doing,

:22:34. > :22:38.we are making sure that those whose contact with the criminal justice

:22:39. > :22:41.system occurs relatively early in their lives, who would otherwise be

:22:42. > :22:45.set on a course of criminality, are diverted from crime and ensured to

:22:46. > :22:49.have a productive future at the earliest possible stage.

:22:50. > :22:53.Talking about youth justice, I think there is an important lesson that

:22:54. > :22:57.all of us can draw from the experience of the youth justice

:22:58. > :23:02.system over recent years. It has been the case that youth crime has

:23:03. > :23:06.fallen, dramatically, in the last few years, at the same time as the

:23:07. > :23:13.number of young offenders in custody has fallen also. It is not the case

:23:14. > :23:19.that in order to be tough on crime that we need to maintain the same

:23:20. > :23:25.level of individuals in custody that we currently have. There are smarter

:23:26. > :23:30.alternatives to incarceration that we need to contemplate. Let me be

:23:31. > :23:34.clear, there will always be some criminals for whom custody is the

:23:35. > :23:38.only appropriate answer, given the seriousness of their crime and the

:23:39. > :23:43.capacity that they have to reoffend. Sondheim Society will be so outraged

:23:44. > :23:47.by particular crimes that incarceration is the only answer. --

:23:48. > :23:53.and Sondheim Society will be so outraged.

:23:54. > :23:56.I work in the city constituency and a visit to the Salvation Army a

:23:57. > :24:00.couple of years ago, I came across somebody who had been imprisoned but

:24:01. > :24:04.got institutionalised by it and therefore he just wanted to go back

:24:05. > :24:08.fairly soon afterwards. My honourable friend is absolutely

:24:09. > :24:11.right, some individuals become institutionalised by prison life.

:24:12. > :24:16.There are many individuals who are imprisoned as a result of problems

:24:17. > :24:21.that they have acquired, either mental health problems, or substance

:24:22. > :24:27.abuse or a related issues, which means that their behaviour, as such,

:24:28. > :24:31.that for their own health and Society does not safety, their need

:24:32. > :24:35.is to be for a time separated from society, but they shouldn't be

:24:36. > :24:38.imprisoned. They should be receiving appropriate mental health care,

:24:39. > :24:41.because the environment they face in custody and incarceration will only

:24:42. > :24:45.harm them and do nothing to either healed make sure they become

:24:46. > :24:48.positive and contributing members to society. One of the things I would

:24:49. > :24:52.like to see, and I know my right honourable friend is looking closely

:24:53. > :24:57.at, is the possibility of building on the experience of problem-solving

:24:58. > :25:02.course, where those who are charged with sentencing offenders have the

:25:03. > :25:09.option of course of custody, who can also save to the offender if they

:25:10. > :25:13.undertake mental health care or commit to dealing with their drug or

:25:14. > :25:17.alcohol addiction or change their behaviour in a meaningful way, they

:25:18. > :25:21.have the opportunity to serve their sentence out of custody. I also

:25:22. > :25:25.think it is the case that release on temporary licence, the opportunity

:25:26. > :25:29.for those people who have shown genuine redemption and a desire to

:25:30. > :25:33.commit to society, giving them the opportunity to be released early,

:25:34. > :25:37.under strict terms, so that they can reacquaint themselves with the world

:25:38. > :25:43.of work and learning has to be the right way to go. I know of one who

:25:44. > :25:50.is has been serving her sentence after one horrendous mistake, in a

:25:51. > :25:53.women's prison in Surrey, who as a result of release on temporary

:25:54. > :25:56.licence is not only been able to act as a mental to young offenders to

:25:57. > :26:02.steer them away from a life of crime but is now pursuing training in

:26:03. > :26:07.order to becoming a barrister. -- a mentor. To ensure the life which she

:26:08. > :26:12.herself was responsible for harming can now be turned to good. I think

:26:13. > :26:16.that example, I think that path is one that all of us in this house can

:26:17. > :26:22.embrace, and for that reason, I support the amendment.

:26:23. > :26:28.I'm grateful and it is a pleasure to follow the right honourable

:26:29. > :26:31.gentleman. He, like me, is one of the number of exes in this chamber

:26:32. > :26:34.today who have had responsibility at different times for the prison

:26:35. > :26:39.service. He will know how difficult it is, as I do, to the Secretary of

:26:40. > :26:43.State was my job and prison minister 's job to deal with these issues.

:26:44. > :26:47.What you said today's extremely important about who we imprison and

:26:48. > :26:51.how we use imprisonment and how we use alternative sentences. That

:26:52. > :26:56.should be listened to. Even he would recognise there are many challenges

:26:57. > :26:58.in the current system. I think from the Secretary of State's

:26:59. > :27:04.contribution, she knows it. I think for my right honourable friend who

:27:05. > :27:09.has tabled a motion today, he knows it. And speaking today is a member

:27:10. > :27:13.from the Justice committee, in the absence of the honourable gentleman

:27:14. > :27:16.for Bromley and Chislehurst, supported by the honourable lady of

:27:17. > :27:20.Banbury, I want to put down some of the challenges as we see them from

:27:21. > :27:23.the Justice committee today. My right honourable friend the Don

:27:24. > :27:28.Valley has indicated some of the statistics but it is extremely

:27:29. > :27:34.challenging. We have had six major incidents. We have had an escape,

:27:35. > :27:42.which is an unusual occurrence for the last 13-14 years in prison. We

:27:43. > :27:47.have got, sadly, a very high level of self-inflicted deaths, 107, a

:27:48. > :27:51.rise of 13% over the previous year. And I certainly expect that to rise

:27:52. > :27:55.still further with the figures that will be announced tomorrow. I will

:27:56. > :27:58.give way. Extremely grateful. He will be

:27:59. > :28:04.aware, as we all are, that on December 16 last year Jerry Smith

:28:05. > :28:08.tragically killed herself in HMV Doncaster. The position of

:28:09. > :28:12.transgender prisoners is one that is absolutely agonising in its

:28:13. > :28:16.implication and I think it's one we simply have to recognise. Would he

:28:17. > :28:19.accept that we need to do more for transgender prisoners at the moment,

:28:20. > :28:22.in view of the horrendous record of self harm and suicide that has

:28:23. > :28:28.afflicted them? I agree with my honourable friend. I

:28:29. > :28:31.think question one yesterday was on that very issue on the Secretary of

:28:32. > :28:36.State indicated it is a priority for the Government. We do have a number

:28:37. > :28:39.of vulnerable people in prison and those self-inflicted deaths, and

:28:40. > :28:44.also the homicides that have occurred are extremely difficult. We

:28:45. > :28:48.have, as my right honourable friend mentioned, 26% increase in the

:28:49. > :28:53.reported incidents of self harm. We have a massive increase of 35% in

:28:54. > :28:59.hospital attendances. We have a massive increase in the number of

:29:00. > :29:07.assaults on prison officers, by 34%. We have increases in the number of

:29:08. > :29:10.attacks on bladed weapons, spitting and blunt instrument use, which is a

:29:11. > :29:16.really challenging situation and I accept that. I welcome the fact that

:29:17. > :29:20.the Secretary of State has, to some extent, you turned on the staffing

:29:21. > :29:23.cuts that her predecessors had in place. She will know that there is a

:29:24. > :29:29.real challenge to accept the increase to 4000 in each of the two

:29:30. > :29:33.years, to get a net increase of 2500. I know the committee welcomes

:29:34. > :29:39.that as a whole. At a time when we've seen the cut in

:29:40. > :29:43.staffing numbers from 26% since 2010, we're not going to get

:29:44. > :29:48.anywhere near back to the central point of the level of prison

:29:49. > :29:52.officers that were in place in May, 2010. She needs to look at how we do

:29:53. > :29:56.that. But I accept that is not the only concern we have today. I want

:29:57. > :30:00.to come if I may, in the absence of the chair of justice of the select

:30:01. > :30:03.committee, just highlight some of the things we are currently looking

:30:04. > :30:08.at in the Justice select committee which I have the prisons minister

:30:09. > :30:14.can respond to at some point in time, because these are key issues.

:30:15. > :30:21.But we're not going to be what implements policies for a number of

:30:22. > :30:24.years, so we need to offer strong scrutiny to other government is

:30:25. > :30:28.currently doing anything this is the key issue the next few weeks and

:30:29. > :30:32.months of the Justice committee. We have now established a presence at

:30:33. > :30:35.committee, looking at a range of issues to do with government

:30:36. > :30:39.empowerment and some other challenges the minister names. I am

:30:40. > :30:44.pleased to share that role with the honourable lady for Banbury but we

:30:45. > :30:49.are still, if I may, a little short of some of the detail of what's

:30:50. > :30:55.going to happen in relation to the government's programme. And I think

:30:56. > :30:59.it would be helpful for the Minister and the government to look at

:31:00. > :31:03.putting the meat on their current level of activities so that we can

:31:04. > :31:07.judge what is going to be taking place in whatever time they have

:31:08. > :31:11.left in office in this government. Because we can talk about what the

:31:12. > :31:14.alternative opposition policy will be, the election could be as far

:31:15. > :31:18.away as three and a half years away nearly, so therefore in that time

:31:19. > :31:22.this government have a key role to play. And we have heard today that

:31:23. > :31:27.government empowerment will take place in just over two months' time

:31:28. > :31:30.in April 20 17. We have one third of those and governors who will be

:31:31. > :31:37.given that greater power and greater autonomy. I am not as clear as yet

:31:38. > :31:41.how that will work in practice, what the benchmarks will be, how the

:31:42. > :31:45.ministers will monitor those governors, what the outcomes will be

:31:46. > :31:48.for those governors and what freedoms they will have that make a

:31:49. > :31:51.difference. I am not sure that the speed of bringing those changes and

:31:52. > :31:56.has yet been thought through by the government. We have as the Minister

:31:57. > :31:59.will now six reformed prisons, which were piloted only in the last six

:32:00. > :32:03.months, which we don't yet know the outcome of those reforms. I think it

:32:04. > :32:08.is incumbent on the Minister to give some indication of what the current

:32:09. > :32:14.outcomes are on those six reformed prisoners. I am not clear on the

:32:15. > :32:17.accountability. I know from having the prison ministers job that when

:32:18. > :32:21.something goes wrong in a prison it will end up on the prison Minister's

:32:22. > :32:26.desk and almost certainly end up on the front of the Daily Mail or the

:32:27. > :32:31.front of the sun. I'm not clear how that accountability will work in

:32:32. > :32:35.relation to governors, and I think some clarity from the Minister as to

:32:36. > :32:39.what the decision in a prison 200 miles from his office in the

:32:40. > :32:42.Ministry of Justice will mean when ultimately it lands on his desk for

:32:43. > :32:48.that level of accountability. I'm not clear, and I want clarity today,

:32:49. > :32:53.about what the commissioning process will be for prison governors. Do

:32:54. > :32:57.they have the skills and training to be able to commission services

:32:58. > :33:01.outside for employment, for health, for procurement. Those things have

:33:02. > :33:05.been done centrally. I'm not sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether the

:33:06. > :33:08.effect of all that local level of commissioning will mean that we lose

:33:09. > :33:13.some of the economies of scale that the Ministry of Justice has, and in

:33:14. > :33:20.a fractured localised system what is the role of the Ministry of Justice

:33:21. > :33:26.in setting issues in due cause? I'm not sure how governors are going to

:33:27. > :33:29.recruit local prison officers. I would welcome some clarification on

:33:30. > :33:33.behalf of our committee as to whether terms and conditions of

:33:34. > :33:36.service, training, delivery are going to be devolved down, or

:33:37. > :33:42.whether they're not. These are issues that go to the heart of the

:33:43. > :33:45.government's amendment to the motion today, and go to the heart of the

:33:46. > :33:52.prison subcommittee that we'll be looking at on a cross-party basis

:33:53. > :33:55.with the Justice committee in the near future. I'm not sure whether

:33:56. > :34:00.there is discretion. We've had evidence from Peter Dawson of the

:34:01. > :34:03.Prison Reform Trust last week who said it would "Unleash competition

:34:04. > :34:06.between governors, prisoners and probation in a competitive

:34:07. > :34:11.environment, and the pros and cons might even drive up costs overall".

:34:12. > :34:17.I think we need some real vision and clarity, not of the direction of

:34:18. > :34:21.travel but of what the bones of that travel are with ministers as a

:34:22. > :34:23.whole. I think it is also important we have some indication of what

:34:24. > :34:29.performance measurement and league tables are going to look like

:34:30. > :34:32.because ultimately at the end of the day as the right honourable member

:34:33. > :34:34.for Surrey Heath and the Minister and my honourable friend have said,

:34:35. > :34:41.we are caring for people through the gate. Most prisoners will leave

:34:42. > :34:44.prison and return. Our due to as the state is to make sure they return in

:34:45. > :34:48.a way that does not let them reoffend and ensures they contribute

:34:49. > :34:54.positively to society. We need more facts from the government and bore

:34:55. > :35:00.direction. A pleasure to follow the right honourable member who is one

:35:01. > :35:05.of the club of exes in this area. When I held my honourable friend's

:35:06. > :35:11.responsibilities, he knew perfectly well the bits of the system that

:35:12. > :35:15.were very difficult to change, and I remember talking to him about the

:35:16. > :35:18.possible to how many foreign nationals who are able to transfer

:35:19. > :35:22.out of the system, and his regular interrogation as to how we doing

:35:23. > :35:25.with the numbers showed his expertise and understanding of the

:35:26. > :35:28.system and I am delighted at the work he is doing on the Justice

:35:29. > :35:33.select committee and contributing to this debate. I hope my contribution

:35:34. > :35:40.as one of the exes in trying to reflect on what I see about the

:35:41. > :35:46.system will be hopefully a positive contribution to the debate, and I'm

:35:47. > :35:53.delighted that it's my neighbour, my honourable friend for East Surrey,

:35:54. > :35:58.who is the prisons minister who has been in my experience absolutely

:35:59. > :36:01.open to talking to people who are experienced in the system, getting

:36:02. > :36:05.ideas and getting very well across his brief. And he is to be

:36:06. > :36:10.congratulated for that. He is less clear enough serving under the Lord

:36:11. > :36:15.Chancellor who has the qualities my right honourable friend the Surrey

:36:16. > :36:21.Heath gave, and he and the current Lord Chancellor of course put policy

:36:22. > :36:25.back into the place that it was left by the time of my right honourable

:36:26. > :36:29.learn that friend, the member for Rushcliffe, under whom I have the

:36:30. > :36:33.honour to serve. The Shadow Lord Chancellor had I thought the one

:36:34. > :36:41.point in his speech was the change of policy in that period between

:36:42. > :36:45.2012 and the arrival of my right honourable friend the Surrey Heath

:36:46. > :36:53.as Lord Chancellor did create significant difficulties for the

:36:54. > :36:57.prison service. They would have found some favour with my friend the

:36:58. > :37:01.honourable friend the Shipley. However we are now dealing with the

:37:02. > :37:06.consequences and I have to tell him that the prison officers Association

:37:07. > :37:10.is not innocent in this matter. The priority for my right honourable

:37:11. > :37:12.friend for absent annual was to deliver the savings target that the

:37:13. > :37:21.Ministry of Justice had to deliver, and they were significant. He was

:37:22. > :37:24.then presented with a deal by the prison officers Association that if

:37:25. > :37:32.he ended the competition programme for the potential privatisation of

:37:33. > :37:38.prisons, a competition programme begun by the party opposite, if that

:37:39. > :37:41.was the and the wings were left in the control of the public sector,

:37:42. > :37:46.then they agreed to the establishment changes that were in

:37:47. > :37:50.the public sector bits to try and hold onto the management of

:37:51. > :37:54.Birmingham prison, and those were savage cuts in the establishment and

:37:55. > :38:01.indeed the winning bid for HMP Birmingham had about 150 more staff

:38:02. > :38:04.in the bid than the public sector bid, but it was the second round of

:38:05. > :38:12.establishment cuts that would then be put into the service after

:38:13. > :38:17.2012-2013, and implemented in the course of 2013-2040 and saw the very

:38:18. > :38:19.severe establishment of reductions to the prison service, all in the

:38:20. > :38:24.public sector, which is what my honourable friend is now having to

:38:25. > :38:29.wrestle with the consequence of, and the government has woken up to the

:38:30. > :38:33.consequences and is now putting 2500 prison officers back on the

:38:34. > :38:39.establishment, and I know my honourable friend the South West

:38:40. > :38:46.Beds had to deal with the consequences of this policy as the

:38:47. > :38:54.then prisons minister, and immensely difficult it was too. And the

:38:55. > :38:57.message I want to give to my honourable friend and the front

:38:58. > :38:59.bench, and indeed try to win the itinerant across the house is the

:39:00. > :39:07.potential role of the private sector. Do not overlook, and the

:39:08. > :39:12.problem under my right honourable friend for absent annual was the row

:39:13. > :39:18.with circa and G four S. Over the management of the tagging contracts.

:39:19. > :39:22.Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it caused G for S and circa

:39:23. > :39:28.not to be considered for contract, the biggest suppliers of private

:39:29. > :39:35.sector services into the custodial system, and it meant that we lost a

:39:36. > :39:39.serious amount of competition, indeed a whole competition programme

:39:40. > :39:42.was stopped, and the right honourable Lady for Don Valley

:39:43. > :39:48.referred to Doncaster prison services, that is run by circular,

:39:49. > :39:53.and when I went to see it as prisons minister, it was a quite outstanding

:39:54. > :40:00.prison, and circa had engaged with the department and had a contract,

:40:01. > :40:05.and they were incentivised on what they were going to deliver as

:40:06. > :40:09.Doncaster prison. There is not necessarily a right and wrong answer

:40:10. > :40:11.that public and private sector but the big advantage that private

:40:12. > :40:18.sector prisons give you is first of all they are cheaper, they are

:40:19. > :40:22.cheaper to run and blessed cost to the service. They also invest

:40:23. > :40:28.heavily in the leadership in those prisons, and what I've found in my

:40:29. > :40:31.experience is the most innovative prison regimes, particularly around

:40:32. > :40:35.rehabilitation and management of offenders in prison was in the

:40:36. > :40:39.private sector. Now I know that my honourable friend's reforms outlined

:40:40. > :40:43.in the White Paper trying to give some of these freedoms now to the

:40:44. > :40:48.governors of public sector prisons, and I wish him all power to his

:40:49. > :40:54.elbow in order to do that, but it is my belief that if we are to get

:40:55. > :40:58.resources into the custodial estate, there are two ways we are going to

:40:59. > :41:04.achieve that. It has to be done in partnership with the private sector.

:41:05. > :41:08.We need to change and improve the state, that means continuing with

:41:09. > :41:17.the process of selling off the old prisons that are expensive to run

:41:18. > :41:20.and often inexpensive parts of real estate, and operated by the private

:41:21. > :41:24.sector. If the money is not available in the public sector

:41:25. > :41:31.budget now, then at least the private sector gives you the ability

:41:32. > :41:43.then to deal with the funding over a prolonged period. Oakwood prison,

:41:44. > :41:49.the costs of running a place in Oakwood prison, the shadow spokesman

:41:50. > :41:53.makes the point was ?13,000 a year for it was in place compare to an

:41:54. > :42:02.average cost of ?22,000 per place for a more expensive... Thank you Mr

:42:03. > :42:08.Deputy Speaker, and I'm pleased to follow the right honourable member

:42:09. > :42:12.for Reigate, and I want to thank him for his interest in Durham prison,

:42:13. > :42:17.when he was prisons minister but I have to say I profoundly disagree

:42:18. > :42:22.with him that privatisation of the prisons is somehow the answer to the

:42:23. > :42:27.problems were currently facing. Like my right honourable friend, the

:42:28. > :42:33.member for Don Valley, I have three prisons in my constituency. I have

:42:34. > :42:38.Durham prison which is a community prison with 1000 prisoners or

:42:39. > :42:44.thereabouts, I have a high security prison, Franklin prison, with over

:42:45. > :42:47.800 prisoners, and I also perhaps more unusually because there are not

:42:48. > :42:54.very many of them in the country, I have a women's prison and a youth

:42:55. > :43:01.offending institution as well. So I think I'm in a pretty good position

:43:02. > :43:05.to have some direct and first-hand knowledge, right across the prison

:43:06. > :43:16.estate, what is happening to prisons currently. And the picture is not a

:43:17. > :43:21.good one. What we know is that prison budgets have been reducing

:43:22. > :43:31.with the budget being cut by 2010 by almost a quarter. There were savings

:43:32. > :43:37.made last year up to about 900 million, with another 91 million of

:43:38. > :43:43.savings being requested from prisons this year. At the same time of

:43:44. > :43:51.course the prison population has not really fallen, and most of these

:43:52. > :43:58.cuts have come in terms of cuts to prison staff numbers. So we have had

:43:59. > :44:07.a reduction of over 6000 prison staff since 2010. Now this has

:44:08. > :44:11.really an enormous impact on the ability of our prisons to run

:44:12. > :44:17.effectively, and as we have heard this afternoon, welcome though it is

:44:18. > :44:21.that the government is going to recruit another 2500 prison

:44:22. > :44:26.officers, it doesn't make up for the shortfall or the cuts since 2010,

:44:27. > :44:32.and of course we also know that the government will have to recruit

:44:33. > :44:37.many, many more than 2500 in order to be able to find the number of

:44:38. > :44:39.prison staff that we need. And what has been the impact of this on our

:44:40. > :44:52.prisons? Deaths in custody are up by 14%,

:44:53. > :44:57.self harm is up 21%, assaults are up 13% and that means assaults on staff

:44:58. > :45:05.being up 20%, and serious assault on staff up by 42%.

:45:06. > :45:09.Now, I don't know about the prisons minister sitting on the bench, but

:45:10. > :45:13.that is not a record that I would want to stand up and defend. That's

:45:14. > :45:19.a set of circumstances that I would want to come to the House and we

:45:20. > :45:23.recognise that there are real problems in our prisons, and these

:45:24. > :45:29.other measures we are going to take as a matter of urgency, in order to

:45:30. > :45:35.get our prisons back on track. And a white paper doesn't really cut that,

:45:36. > :45:39.so one of the things I want to hear from the prisons minister in his

:45:40. > :45:44.winding up, is what is he going to do as a matter of urgency, to

:45:45. > :45:50.address some of the problems facing our prisons. I want to just quickly,

:45:51. > :45:55.because I've only got for a minute for each of them, run through what I

:45:56. > :46:01.think it needs to do. For the women's prison, far to women are

:46:02. > :46:04.inappropriately sent to prison. 52% of women in our prisons have

:46:05. > :46:13.children and lots of those children end up going into care when their

:46:14. > :46:16.mother -- mothers are put into prison for a short period of time. I

:46:17. > :46:22.would like to see from the Government a clear strategy to deal

:46:23. > :46:26.with women prisoners, to direct them to other forms of custody and bring

:46:27. > :46:29.forward a plan and I look forward to hearing what he and the Justice

:46:30. > :46:34.Secretary is going to come forward with. I think they said they would

:46:35. > :46:40.announce it later this year, in terms of a plan for women prisoners,

:46:41. > :46:46.and in particular cutting the prisoners state, so women are really

:46:47. > :46:50.given much more sentences in the community, or other types of

:46:51. > :46:59.custody, rather than in the prisons as they currently are. With Durham

:47:00. > :47:04.prison, that's community prison, received is really high. We need to

:47:05. > :47:08.see measures to cut it and in particular to continue to invest in

:47:09. > :47:13.education, skills and work experience. We know from the

:47:14. > :47:16.monitoring reports on the inspections that not enough

:47:17. > :47:22.attention is going into education and skills. That is really

:47:23. > :47:26.difficult. Difficult to maintain high levels of

:47:27. > :47:32.education my numbers are being cut. That is an area the Government needs

:47:33. > :47:38.to address. Frankland prison, in some respects presents the biggest

:47:39. > :47:41.challenge for the Government. The prisoners have very complex needs.

:47:42. > :47:46.We know from the monitoring reports that what is critical is that the

:47:47. > :47:50.Government continues to resource centre that deals with violent

:47:51. > :47:54.behaviour, for example, and tries to turn it round for the prison

:47:55. > :47:58.population. All of those special services are at risk if prisons are

:47:59. > :48:05.not properly staffed and if they are not properly resourced. What I want

:48:06. > :48:10.to hear from the minister is what is he going to do quickly, to resource

:48:11. > :48:19.our prisons more effectively, and to ensure the sedative The Miz reduced

:48:20. > :48:29.and alternative to prisons for men and women? Gordon Henderson, it will

:48:30. > :48:34.have to go down to six Thank you for that good news, Mr Deputy Speaker.

:48:35. > :48:42.It is great to follow the honourable member for Durham. Like her, and the

:48:43. > :48:47.right honourable member for Don Valley, I also have three prisons in

:48:48. > :48:49.my constituency. Lalli, Stamford hell and Wales side, which is

:48:50. > :48:59.mentioned in the opposition motion. One of the largest concentration of

:49:00. > :49:03.thousands in the country. I would like to begin by paying tribute to

:49:04. > :49:07.the fantastic men and women who work in the prisons, they are dedicated

:49:08. > :49:12.and hard-working professionals, of whom I am immensely proud. They work

:49:13. > :49:15.in extremely challenging environments, facing on an almost

:49:16. > :49:20.daily basis the threat of violence, with few complaints and a great deal

:49:21. > :49:23.of courage. Mr Deputy Speaker, that threat of violence is growing for

:49:24. > :49:31.all sorts of reasons, some of which we've heard. They include the

:49:32. > :49:33.increase of drugs are smuggled into prisons, often by drones that

:49:34. > :49:39.deliver contraband direct to the cells. Increased alcohol and gang

:49:40. > :49:45.culture in prisons, retribution for of debts, violence for the recovery

:49:46. > :49:51.of stolen contraband and frustration caused by reduction in recreation

:49:52. > :49:55.time because of a shortage of prison officers. That is a fact I am

:49:56. > :50:01.particular concerned with, because unless something is done soon to

:50:02. > :50:08.increase staffing levels, or those other problems I've mentioned will

:50:09. > :50:11.get worse. There's no denying morale among prison staff is low, and

:50:12. > :50:14.that's not surprising when you consider the environment in which

:50:15. > :50:19.prison staff have to work. The police are dealing with people all

:50:20. > :50:24.day but those people are victims of crime or people suspected of crimes,

:50:25. > :50:29.but who turn out to be innocent. The people with whom prison officers

:50:30. > :50:32.deal, have to deal with day in and day out have all been found guilty

:50:33. > :50:39.of a crime, many of them violent crimes. If a police officer is

:50:40. > :50:43.attacked in England the perpetrators are tracked down, prosecuted and if

:50:44. > :50:46.found guilty sent to prison for a lengthy sentence. However if a

:50:47. > :50:50.prison officer is attacked by prisoner, too often in the past the

:50:51. > :50:54.only punishment meted out is withdrawal of privileges. Now I

:50:55. > :50:59.believe prison officer should be treated in exactly the same way as

:51:00. > :51:02.police officers. If a prison at attacks prison officer or another

:51:03. > :51:09.prisoner, I think that person should be tried and if found guilty being

:51:10. > :51:13.given as sentence as if the prison crime is committed outside prison.

:51:14. > :51:18.That sentence should then be added to the sentence prisoner is already

:51:19. > :51:22.serving. I believe what we need now is a

:51:23. > :51:26.proper review of the working conditions and pay structure of

:51:27. > :51:31.prison officers, including perhaps consideration, again, of

:51:32. > :51:36.regionalising pay that recognises the high cost of living in the south

:51:37. > :51:39.of England. And the difficulties in attracting so many people in a job

:51:40. > :51:44.with so many challenges when there is better opportunity available. I

:51:45. > :51:49.believe also the Government needs to re-examine its policy on retirement

:51:50. > :51:54.age of prison officers. It simply unfair that police officers and

:51:55. > :51:58.firefighters are able to retire at 60, where as prison officers are

:51:59. > :52:03.expected to work until they are 68, despite their work being just as

:52:04. > :52:06.physically demanding. Mr Deputy Speaker, my prison

:52:07. > :52:11.officers have a very difficult job, made worse by the ratio of

:52:12. > :52:18.front-line officers to inmates. I would like to set out what the ratio

:52:19. > :52:21.is and I do so by using information from the quarterly workforce

:52:22. > :52:29.bulletin. The key operational grades in public sector prisons are banned

:52:30. > :52:35.3-5 officers. At 30th of September 2016, the last available figure,

:52:36. > :52:43.there were 18,000 3-5 officers in prose. -- imposed. At the same time

:52:44. > :52:50.there are 80,000 prisoners. What are the implications? That 18,000 Band

:52:51. > :52:56.3-5 prison officers, you have to first of all take into account that

:52:57. > :53:00.at any one time about 20% of those officers are off work for one reason

:53:01. > :53:05.or another, because of sickness, court duties or holidays. That

:53:06. > :53:12.leaves a total of 14,000 400. Of those officers only work 37 hours a

:53:13. > :53:15.week. Prisoners are incarcerated 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It

:53:16. > :53:24.takes 4.5 officers to provide continuous cover over the week. That

:53:25. > :53:28.means that any one time there are just 3200 Band three to five

:53:29. > :53:34.officers on front-line duty in prisons in England and Wales. That

:53:35. > :53:41.means that any one time there is only, for each officer on duty, he

:53:42. > :53:45.has to after 25 prisoners. Finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to quickly

:53:46. > :53:50.address the opposition motion before us today. There is much in it with

:53:51. > :53:54.which I cannot disagree, not least because the facts set out in it are

:53:55. > :53:59.cut incontrovertible. Indeed, if the motion and finished on the word

:54:00. > :54:02.odour overcrowded in line seven, I would have been happy to support it.

:54:03. > :54:13.-- overcrowded. But I'm not happy at on calling on the Government to

:54:14. > :54:15.improve overcrowded nurse wasn't... I won't be voting against a Labour

:54:16. > :54:27.motion but I can't support it. It is a pleasure to listen to such

:54:28. > :54:31.an empowered speech, and I would also like the opportunity to take

:54:32. > :54:35.the chance to declare I am the co-chair of the Justice Unions and

:54:36. > :54:44.family courts Parliamentary group. The Ministry of Justice cites three

:54:45. > :54:49.key objectives which underpinned the prison service, to reduce prisoners

:54:50. > :54:54.reoffending and to provide safe establishments in which we treat

:54:55. > :55:01.prisoners humanely, lawfully. Today Wales has four jails housing 3436

:55:02. > :55:08.inmates, 4% of the total prison population in England and Wales. On

:55:09. > :55:12.Monday I visited a prison in North Wales which is due to open next

:55:13. > :55:21.month. This so-called super prison will include Wales' capacity for

:55:22. > :55:24.housing prisoners by 50%. My party does continue to have a number of

:55:25. > :55:28.concerns about this prison, in particular the massive strain it

:55:29. > :55:32.will place North Wales Police, who are expected to face extra staffing

:55:33. > :55:38.costs of ?147,000 a year as a direct result. And at a time when the

:55:39. > :55:42.already underfunded police forces stretch, with limited resources on

:55:43. > :55:46.tight budgets, I must question why is acceptable to expect a local

:55:47. > :55:48.force to foot the Bill for a UK Government project. This super

:55:49. > :55:52.prison is designed first and foremost to meet the needs of

:55:53. > :55:56.north-west England, not that of North Wales, yet the Government

:55:57. > :56:00.insists North Wales Police force are responsible for covering the costs

:56:01. > :56:04.of policing this facility. My reservations about this government's

:56:05. > :56:07.policy on prisons should not be confused with criticism of any kind

:56:08. > :56:12.against the dedicated staff who work in the criminal justice system. I

:56:13. > :56:16.would like to thank operational supervisor Peter Barfoot, with an

:56:17. > :56:24.excellent guide an advocate for this new prison. I was greatly struck by

:56:25. > :56:28.a strong sense that the staff, both experienced for new recruits, were

:56:29. > :56:31.looking forward to contributing to a worthwhile social facility. Two

:56:32. > :56:34.prison officers were forthcoming in explaining they had moved from post

:56:35. > :56:39.to other prisons specifically because of the opportunities that

:56:40. > :56:43.this prison, in terms, and I think this is important, in the quality of

:56:44. > :56:49.the estate, which is a new build, and also, equally important, the

:56:50. > :56:52.offender management objectives of that prison, which looks set to be

:56:53. > :56:57.very innovative and exciting and I'm sure you will be following closely.

:56:58. > :57:01.I will ask the Minister once again to ensure we do not only have the

:57:02. > :57:04.correct staff, in terms of experience and skill, but in

:57:05. > :57:07.language. The prisoners in close proximity to some of the most Welsh

:57:08. > :57:11.speaking regions of Wales and I would want to give the Minister the

:57:12. > :57:15.opportunity to assure the House there will be the appropriate

:57:16. > :57:21.provisions, including the hiring of Welsh speaking staff, to enable the

:57:22. > :57:25.prison to operate effectively. Could the Minister confirmed they will

:57:26. > :57:30.work with the prison to draw up an institution specific Welsh language

:57:31. > :57:33.plan? In Wales, whilst we have the ability to set much of our own

:57:34. > :57:36.health and social policy, our criminal justice system is still

:57:37. > :57:40.dictated from Westminster, which prioritises the needs of England. In

:57:41. > :57:44.order for Wales to truly help people to reintegrate into society and

:57:45. > :57:48.prevent reoffending we must have these powers devolved to the Welsh

:57:49. > :57:52.Assembly. I want to make the request of the Minister. As the Government

:57:53. > :57:58.supposedly committed to decentralisation, and if he or the

:57:59. > :58:09.Secretary of State is committed to reducing reoffending rates, will

:58:10. > :58:17.heel shoe -- he or she reconsider decentralisation? And also at the

:58:18. > :58:22.same time as visibility study in the devolution of the prison service, as

:58:23. > :58:34.recommended by the commission. I want to confine my remarks to the

:58:35. > :58:38.subject of fixed term recall is, which I wish were much more widely

:58:39. > :58:42.understood by the public and in this house, because I think it is one of

:58:43. > :58:46.the biggest outrages of our current prison system and yet hardly anybody

:58:47. > :58:50.knows anything about it at all. Most people in the country believe

:58:51. > :58:53.that when someone is let out of prison early, whether it is halfway

:58:54. > :58:57.through their sentence, a quarter way on home detention curfew or an

:58:58. > :59:00.at some other point before they should be let out, that if they

:59:01. > :59:04.reoffend breach their licence conditions they should go back to

:59:05. > :59:07.prison to serve the rest of the original sentence at the very least.

:59:08. > :59:12.Unfortunately this is not often the case. In reality the overwhelming

:59:13. > :59:18.majority of the public believe the offender should serve the whole

:59:19. > :59:25.sentence in prison. 82% of those asked in a survey carried out by

:59:26. > :59:28.Lord Ashcroft thought prison should see the whole prison sentence

:59:29. > :59:33.carried out. This is not rocket science but common sense. But fixed

:59:34. > :59:36.term recall is introduced to reduce the pressure on prison places in

:59:37. > :59:40.2008, and I don't think many people know about what's happening.

:59:41. > :59:43.A fixed term recall is where the offender breaches their licence or

:59:44. > :59:49.reoffend is an return to prison for a mere 28 days. Not for the rest of

:59:50. > :59:55.their prison term, not even for most of it, for just 28 days.

:59:56. > :59:59.When fixed term recall is why introduce, they excluded certain

:00:00. > :00:03.offenders. But my right honourable friend the rush breath when he was

:00:04. > :00:06.Lord Chancellor, in his bid to reduce the prison population

:00:07. > :00:12.further, relax the rules by way of a change in the legal aid sentencing

:00:13. > :00:15.and punishing act 22. So as of the 3rd of December 2012, fixed term

:00:16. > :00:20.recall that were made available to previously denied prisoners. These

:00:21. > :00:24.were offenders serving a sentence for certain violent or sexual

:00:25. > :00:28.offences. Those subject to a home detention curfew, and in my opinion

:00:29. > :00:31.most shockingly, those who had already been given a fixed term

:00:32. > :00:36.recall for breaching their licence in the same sentence. I don't think

:00:37. > :00:39.many people out in the country know that. I certainly know that many

:00:40. > :00:44.people out in the country won't like it.

:00:45. > :00:50.These fixed term recourse aren't just happening in occasional cases,

:00:51. > :00:56.in 2013-14 they were given to 40% of all offenders who were recalled, and

:00:57. > :01:00.in 2015 to 28%. That's an awful lot of people only going back to prison

:01:01. > :01:04.for 28 days instead of the rest of their sentence, and fees 28 day

:01:05. > :01:09.recalls were laid only the sentences of one year or more, so were talking

:01:10. > :01:12.about the most serious of offenders, their 14 day recall is applied to

:01:13. > :01:17.shorter sentences but they are a much more recent concept. The more I

:01:18. > :01:20.have investigated the whole issue of 28 day fixed term recourse and the

:01:21. > :01:27.more figures that have been released, more disturbing things

:01:28. > :01:32.have become clear. In 2014, 7486 prisoners were recalled for just 28

:01:33. > :01:38.days. Of those, 3166 had been charged with a further offence. That

:01:39. > :01:42.means there were 3166 people charged with a further offence when they

:01:43. > :01:46.should have been in prison in the first place, who then escaped

:01:47. > :01:49.serving the original sentence despite committing be further

:01:50. > :02:02.offence. The vast majority of these had 15 or more previous convictions.

:02:03. > :02:05.The most common is burglary. So over half of these being given this

:02:06. > :02:10.pathetic slap on the risk were people who had committed this very

:02:11. > :02:13.serious crime. They were also given to people convicted of manslaughter,

:02:14. > :02:19.attempted homicide wounding, rape and robbery. Perhaps the icing on

:02:20. > :02:27.the case in this whole sorry state of affairs is that in 2015 816

:02:28. > :02:30.offenders were allowed more than one fixed term recall for another breach

:02:31. > :02:35.or offence to the same original sentence. So in just three years,

:02:36. > :02:39.3327 of the most serious offenders in our prisons were released from

:02:40. > :02:44.prison, breached their licence, returned to prison for 28 days,

:02:45. > :02:47.released again, and then from a further breach of licence returned

:02:48. > :02:52.to prison for just another 28 days and then released again. This is a

:02:53. > :02:57.complete failure of a policy in my opinion and completely indefensible.

:02:58. > :03:02.I raised this issue yesterday in justice questions and the Minister's

:03:03. > :03:06.dash-mac reply about risk is interesting but this is a very sad

:03:07. > :03:08.joke. These people should not have been released early in the first

:03:09. > :03:13.place as far as I'm concerned, but having been released there should be

:03:14. > :03:15.no other option but to them to be returned to prison for breaching

:03:16. > :03:20.their son since and especially the reoffending for the remainder of the

:03:21. > :03:26.original sentence at the very least. The final thing I want to mention on

:03:27. > :03:29.this is that this week response has become so well-known in the criminal

:03:30. > :03:33.community that some people are taking their chances of getting

:03:34. > :03:37.record, knowing of the punishment is pathetic. That is like a 28 day

:03:38. > :03:41.all-inclusive mini-break. Worse still, some prisoners who have been

:03:42. > :03:45.released deliberately tried to get themselves back into prison to give

:03:46. > :03:47.them enough time to see how their criminal operation in prison is

:03:48. > :03:55.carrying on whilst they are out, knowing that they will only get 28

:03:56. > :03:57.days. This has been confirmed by Manchester University Metropolitan

:03:58. > :04:03.University, where they say prisoners have been able to earn ?3000 in 28

:04:04. > :04:08.days by the bringing in drugs. Other prisoners have said everyone keeps

:04:09. > :04:12.going and coming back on these recalls and bringing more drugs back

:04:13. > :04:15.in with them. This is an absolute farce. The criminals are laughing

:04:16. > :04:20.all the way to the bank whilst nothing is being done to stop this

:04:21. > :04:28.nonsense. When will the Minister get a grip of this thing and end of this

:04:29. > :04:31.fraud on the public? It is a pleasure to follow fellow member of

:04:32. > :04:35.the Justice committee the member for Shipley. He has raised this issue

:04:36. > :04:41.before I'm sure, but by the time the minister comes the reply he would

:04:42. > :04:45.have got a grip on this matter, and announced some changes that will

:04:46. > :04:48.satisfy the honourable general -- gentleman. If not, then it will be

:04:49. > :04:53.raised again not just on the Justice committee but also in the house. In

:04:54. > :04:58.the short time that I have available, I want to raise just one

:04:59. > :05:02.issue, which is the issue of foreign national prisoners. I agree

:05:03. > :05:05.wholeheartedly with what has been said by other right honourable

:05:06. > :05:10.members about the crisis in our prisons, and indeed if we are

:05:11. > :05:14.thinking about having a club of ex-ministers, I indeed was an

:05:15. > :05:18.ex-minister in the Lord Chancellor's department, but prisons at that

:05:19. > :05:22.stage was at the Home Office, so I take no responsibility for what has

:05:23. > :05:26.happened in the past. But maybe a seminar of ex-prisons minister is

:05:27. > :05:32.chaired by the honourable member for Hexham from the author of that

:05:33. > :05:35.definitive book, and maybe we can come to the solutions or memos of

:05:36. > :05:39.this house would like to see adopted to try to bring this crisis to an

:05:40. > :05:42.end. Going back to foreign national prisoners, and I am delighted that

:05:43. > :05:46.the prisons minister is chairing the task force, we want to hear more

:05:47. > :05:56.about this, because it remains a mystery to me why 12% of the prison

:05:57. > :06:03.population happens to be people who are foreign national figures, and of

:06:04. > :06:10.that figure half that number, 4000 plus, are from EU countries. Bearing

:06:11. > :06:15.in mind we are still a member of the European Union for the next two

:06:16. > :06:20.years, I find it extraordinary that we are not able to send more foreign

:06:21. > :06:24.national prisoners from our prisons. After all, what is the point of

:06:25. > :06:29.undertaking negotiations signing transfer agreements with EU

:06:30. > :06:34.colleagues, and they are unable to take back their citizens. So I think

:06:35. > :06:39.it is a priority for this government to ensure that in the two years

:06:40. > :06:46.available before Brexit that we will insure that citizens of that

:06:47. > :06:50.country, from countries like Poland and Romania who are top of the list,

:06:51. > :06:56.should be returned back. I was surprised at the last committee

:06:57. > :07:14.hearing to hear the Minister's chief Officer Michael spirt of the

:07:15. > :07:22.decided 130 should have been sent back and they had not. As the

:07:23. > :07:25.Minister and the house knows, the derogation for Poland ended on 31st

:07:26. > :07:28.of December. When he comes the reply I hope he will tell us that this

:07:29. > :07:30.matter is now being looked at very carefully, that prisoners are being

:07:31. > :07:33.transferred. I am glad that a record number were removed last year, but

:07:34. > :07:37.the headline figure was so low that practically any additional figures

:07:38. > :07:42.becomes a record. We need to do much, much better than we are doing

:07:43. > :07:48.at the moment. Recently, of course, we hear that under the agreement

:07:49. > :07:53.that has been made with Albania, only 17 Albanian prisoners have been

:07:54. > :07:56.transferred from our prisons. It is not that we are against foreign

:07:57. > :08:01.national prisoners, we are just in favour of them being able to serve

:08:02. > :08:07.their sentence in their countries of origin. If that happens, it will

:08:08. > :08:12.reduce the prison population by a 10,000 and it will save the taxpayer

:08:13. > :08:17.?169 million, so I hope very much that when the Minister comes the

:08:18. > :08:21.reply he will give us some new information, which will encourage

:08:22. > :08:27.the house to believe that this issue is being taken very seriously. Thank

:08:28. > :08:30.you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I start by declaring an interest as a

:08:31. > :08:38.trustee of the Butler trust, which is an organisation, which seeks to

:08:39. > :08:42.improve the skills of prison officers across the country, and to

:08:43. > :08:47.share best practice, and I have the pleasure to serve as a trustee,

:08:48. > :08:50.alongside PJ McFarlane, who is a former chairman, a very

:08:51. > :08:54.distinguished chairman of the prison officers Association with whom I'm

:08:55. > :09:00.very proud to be a fellow trustee. I am very pleased that the Ministry of

:09:01. > :09:05.Justice has managed to secure the funding to recruit an extra 2500

:09:06. > :09:11.prison officers and I start by paying tribute to the work that they

:09:12. > :09:15.do, date in and day out. They are an outstanding group of public servants

:09:16. > :09:24.whose work is unfortunately not as well known, and well appreciated, as

:09:25. > :09:31.it should be. The move towards more autonomous collisions will help

:09:32. > :09:37.local communities appreciate more fully the sterling work that prison

:09:38. > :09:41.officers do day in and day out. I also want to make sure in terms of

:09:42. > :09:49.safety that prison officers are always supported as well as possible

:09:50. > :09:55.by good local police associations. Annika Beck there would effectively

:09:56. > :10:00.and in my time as prison officer, I felt that the corporation between

:10:01. > :10:06.police forces and local prisons ferried around the country. It needs

:10:07. > :10:20.to be good. The reason that this is so important

:10:21. > :10:26.is not only because the British taxpayer is paying for this, but if

:10:27. > :10:30.we could reduce 9000 prisoners in our prisons would give us the head

:10:31. > :10:36.room, a flexibility to do rehabilitation better across our

:10:37. > :10:41.prisons, and that is what again on both sides of this house we are so

:10:42. > :10:46.keen to see. It is very much the focus of the White Paper, which I

:10:47. > :10:52.was delighted to see published in November. One of the issues I'm very

:10:53. > :10:56.pleased the Ministry of Justice is taking forward is the farmer review

:10:57. > :10:59.on prisoners families. I believe strong families are essential to

:11:00. > :11:04.strong communities across our country, they are engines of social

:11:05. > :11:09.mobility, and they matter very much for prisoners for lots of practical

:11:10. > :11:12.reasons. We know that if a prisoner's relationship or marriage

:11:13. > :11:15.doesn't fall apart, they are more likely to have somewhere to live

:11:16. > :11:19.when they come out prison, they are also more likely to get into work,

:11:20. > :11:25.so I strongly welcome the Ministry of Justice's support for the review.

:11:26. > :11:30.The continuing emphasis on education is excellent, with a greater focus

:11:31. > :11:36.on testing and making sure there is improvement. Yes, of course I'll

:11:37. > :11:40.give way. Thank you forgiving way. In relation to education, yesterday

:11:41. > :11:45.there was an event organised here by the cultural learning allowance. --

:11:46. > :11:50.Alliance. My sister is a member of that alliance, have to declare. The

:11:51. > :11:57.most recent research includes research that shows young offenders

:11:58. > :12:03.take part in our arts activities are 18% less likely to reoffend, which

:12:04. > :12:06.is of huge benefit to the public and to the prisoners's families as well.

:12:07. > :12:11.Would you agree it is important that we invest in arts education in

:12:12. > :12:20.prisons? Yes, weather is clear evidence that it reduce the

:12:21. > :12:25.reoffending, she is right to raise that issue. One phrase never like to

:12:26. > :12:28.hear was that prisoners were being taken to education. I think

:12:29. > :12:38.education should run across the whole prison, on the wings, in the

:12:39. > :12:41.landings, in prisoners cells. I commend what is happening in

:12:42. > :12:45.Wandsworth where the inspirational governor Ian Vickers is taking 50

:12:46. > :12:49.prisoners who have level three qualifications, paying them, giving

:12:50. > :12:54.them a uniform, they can lose their job if they don't perform well, and

:12:55. > :12:58.getting them to work alongside those doing education in prison to spread

:12:59. > :13:04.lending across the prison. That is an excellent initiative. The focus

:13:05. > :13:13.on work and training in prisons that will lead to a job on release is apt

:13:14. > :13:20.salute the right. Prison apprenticeships, which will carry on

:13:21. > :13:27.we often hear name checked the employers that do the right thing

:13:28. > :13:30.and take on ex-offenders that play fair by everyone to reduce

:13:31. > :13:33.reoffending to keep everyone safe, but I have to tell the house there

:13:34. > :13:38.are a number of employers, and a number of very well-known national

:13:39. > :13:43.employers, who do not take on ex-offenders as a matter of policy.

:13:44. > :13:48.I am not going to name and shame them today, because I am in

:13:49. > :13:51.correspondence and dialogue with them, and I hope that quiet

:13:52. > :13:55.persuasion will lead to them doing the right thing, but just as we name

:13:56. > :14:00.checked those who do well, I put on notice those who don't do the right

:14:01. > :14:06.thing, that there will come a time when we will call them out and urge

:14:07. > :14:10.them to do better in this area. I was pleased to hear from the

:14:11. > :14:14.Secretary of State that in April she will be saying more about probation,

:14:15. > :14:19.and we need high standards for probation. I pay tribute to our

:14:20. > :14:24.probation officers again, a very dedicated group of public servants.

:14:25. > :14:27.They need to work hand in glove with prison officers, I know the

:14:28. > :14:31.Secretary of State and the prisons probation Minister will make sure

:14:32. > :14:34.that that does happen, and in particular and want to see probation

:14:35. > :14:39.officers making sure that the emphasis on education and on

:14:40. > :14:46.employment that is taking place in prison carries on during the

:14:47. > :14:50.probationary period, making sure that work focus continues, that the

:14:51. > :14:52.ex-offenders attending the local college for example. That will take

:14:53. > :14:57.us forward and addict grimly important.

:14:58. > :15:04.Can I just give a warning, I need to drop the limit to four minutes after

:15:05. > :15:08.the next speaker. Thank you. I would like to repeat

:15:09. > :15:11.what we've heard from many other honourable members, the tribute of

:15:12. > :15:15.all of us in this house to the work people in the prison service do.

:15:16. > :15:19.They take on an incredibly difficult task and we are incredibly grateful

:15:20. > :15:25.to them for the work they do. It was brought home to me when I took up a

:15:26. > :15:30.challenge from my honourable friend from Ealing North, about visiting a

:15:31. > :15:34.prison. I visited Nottingham prison. I would encourage all of us to do

:15:35. > :15:39.so, so any MPs voting in this debate who haven't been around a prison,

:15:40. > :15:42.are doing so from a position of ignorance. In listening to the

:15:43. > :15:46.speech of the Secretary of State today, I have to say there is much

:15:47. > :15:49.in the rhetoric I heard that I would support. Much of what she was saying

:15:50. > :15:54.about the issues and challenges facing the prison service we would

:15:55. > :15:56.all agree with, but I have to say, her vision of what was going on and

:15:57. > :16:04.the policies of this government there little relationship to the

:16:05. > :16:06.experiences prison officers actually have.

:16:07. > :16:11.Criticism was made by the honourable member from Rushcliffe of the

:16:12. > :16:15.motion. And whilst we recognise there many other aspects to than

:16:16. > :16:21.simply those in the motion, it seems there is little to disagree with in

:16:22. > :16:26.terms of what is in the motion. Four friends of mine have worked in

:16:27. > :16:29.recent years at a prison in Doncaster, two have recently been

:16:30. > :16:35.retired medical grounds, one is off sick at the moment and whilst this

:16:36. > :16:39.debate refers rightly to the overall reduction in prison officers, what

:16:40. > :16:42.isn't so much being focused on is the deliberate strategy of replacing

:16:43. > :16:48.experienced prison officers with cheap replacements, and people right

:16:49. > :16:51.at the start of their career. I think it's an extremely dangerous

:16:52. > :16:54.policy. My honourable friend from Leeds has spoken about private

:16:55. > :16:59.prisons but this is also happening in the Government estate. One of my

:17:00. > :17:03.friends that worked in Doncaster left the service, was assaulted

:17:04. > :17:07.three times in a six-month period, once very seriously indeed. On the

:17:08. > :17:11.first occasion he was encouraged to telephone the staff welfare hotline.

:17:12. > :17:15.On the third occasion when he found he was told he had used the hotline

:17:16. > :17:19.too many times and was actually allowed to use time to get any

:17:20. > :17:23.support, after a very serious assault on him at work. Another

:17:24. > :17:26.friend in the service told me how he needs a knee replacement operation

:17:27. > :17:29.that has cancelled the operation because he believes if he takes time

:17:30. > :17:35.off to get his knee repaired he will be sacked on the capability grounds.

:17:36. > :17:38.He specifically asked me why experienced prison officers felt too

:17:39. > :17:44.intimidated to get the medical treatment that they actually needed.

:17:45. > :17:47.Another friend who has worked in the service for 25 years left last year.

:17:48. > :17:52.He said when he started there were 12 prison officers for 90 prisoners,

:17:53. > :17:55.now just three prison officers are there. Three prison officers may be

:17:56. > :18:00.adequate when things are quiet and everything is going OK, but it

:18:01. > :18:03.leaves too little time to engage on rehabilitating the way prison

:18:04. > :18:07.officers want to do. But when a prisoner takes a phone call at five

:18:08. > :18:11.to eight, saying his wife is leaving him or his children have been taken

:18:12. > :18:15.away by social services, need support on the prison officers

:18:16. > :18:19.stepped in and do an incredibly important task. When those resources

:18:20. > :18:25.aren't there, whether it be a moment of crisis in a prisoner's life or to

:18:26. > :18:29.prevent fights or simply support prisoners to consider what courses

:18:30. > :18:32.they might do I go down the route of rehabilitation, a vital chance is

:18:33. > :18:38.lost to help a prisoner back onto the right path. That sense prison

:18:39. > :18:42.officers no longer feel is incredibly important role in our

:18:43. > :18:46.society, is for filling in the way it once was, is something that

:18:47. > :18:49.should concern us all. When prisoners start to consider

:18:50. > :18:52.that no one is interested in them, that's when we see the sort of

:18:53. > :18:59.violent episodes that we've seen recently and there's not enough

:19:00. > :19:02.being done to prevent reoffending. It is a fact that experienced prison

:19:03. > :19:07.officers also crucial to the development of new staff. Managers

:19:08. > :19:12.in prison much less experience than they once were. I wonder what chance

:19:13. > :19:16.the new ?19,000 prison apprentices have, put into overcrowded prisons

:19:17. > :19:21.with disillusioned and inexperienced prison officers, where the mentoring

:19:22. > :19:24.that once would have been there for new staff is unfair. Are we just

:19:25. > :19:30.setting up to fail? I support the motion in the name of

:19:31. > :19:33.right honourable friend but I would go further and say unless government

:19:34. > :19:38.recognises why the riots are happening and not only stops its

:19:39. > :19:43.deliberate attempt to chuck experienced officers out of the

:19:44. > :19:46.system to save money but implement a strategy to retain those experienced

:19:47. > :19:49.staff and see them as central to the success of the recruitment of the

:19:50. > :19:53.new generation of prison officers, then not only will these problems

:19:54. > :19:56.continue to escalate, but our prisons and society will pay a very

:19:57. > :20:08.heavy price for that failure Iniesta,. -- in years to come. Simon

:20:09. > :20:15.Hall. I hope I won't take any more time

:20:16. > :20:21.than four minutes. And you forgot my name, I shall edit my Christmas card

:20:22. > :20:25.list and I get back to the office. It is an honour to follow my

:20:26. > :20:30.honourable friend from Chesterfield, and I agree with him on the member

:20:31. > :20:34.of Ealing North, that it should be a requirement of all of us to visit

:20:35. > :20:39.prison so we can see things done on the ground where we have them in our

:20:40. > :20:43.constituencies. I have a prison in my constituency, which I have

:20:44. > :20:46.visited now on a number of occasions. So many times the

:20:47. > :20:51.prisoners and I seem to be on first name terms. I have seen the

:20:52. > :20:56.excellent work that the prison officers Association do with the

:20:57. > :21:06.staff, with the prisoners, and where the voluntary sector gets involved.

:21:07. > :21:10.That's a session preparing prisoners to get skills, get their CV is

:21:11. > :21:14.right, to get them equipped for work, and working alongside that

:21:15. > :21:16.charity with a number of national businesses, reflecting on what my

:21:17. > :21:20.honourable friend from Bedford just said, who are keen to take

:21:21. > :21:23.ex-offenders on when they have finished their sentences. Will my

:21:24. > :21:27.honourable friend give way? I'm glad you mentioned volunteers. Would he

:21:28. > :21:31.agree we should salute the work of volunteers who go into our prisons

:21:32. > :21:43.across the country to work alongside prison officers? I agree

:21:44. > :21:47.with my honourable friend, if for no other reason bar the fact it says to

:21:48. > :21:50.those prisoners that society hasn't forgotten about the man hasn't

:21:51. > :21:52.dismiss them out of hand, that they still see them as potentially

:21:53. > :21:55.productive part of the community when they come back. There were two

:21:56. > :21:56.things I wish to talk about today, which I hope the Minister will pay

:21:57. > :21:59.attention to. The first is in very specific

:22:00. > :22:03.relation to my prison, which the Ministry of Justice team will no,

:22:04. > :22:09.because it was in the media relatively recently and has had

:22:10. > :22:15.problems. I make a brief comment, if I may, about the robustness of

:22:16. > :22:19.Karelian as the contractor. Contracts have two sides that to

:22:20. > :22:24.that particular point. The first is clearly on the company which is

:22:25. > :22:30.contracted to deliver the service, to deliver that service. The other

:22:31. > :22:34.side of the coin is for the person who lets the contract to monitor a

:22:35. > :22:45.bubbly and enforce what is required from it. I remain to be convinced

:22:46. > :22:50.that Corillian is up to the job and that as the manager of the contract,

:22:51. > :22:56.that they have done the job it is required to do. I don't take a

:22:57. > :23:00.private sector good, public sector bad or vice versa but sometimes I

:23:01. > :23:03.think some of these companies contracted to do this very important

:23:04. > :23:09.work do need to raise their game. I've spoken to the Minister about

:23:10. > :23:12.that and I know he and the Lord Chancellor is receptive to the case.

:23:13. > :23:18.Madame Debord is bigger, yesterday I was called at justice questions to

:23:19. > :23:21.talk about recruitment, an issue that has dominated the debate today.

:23:22. > :23:27.In response to my question my honourable friend the Prisons

:23:28. > :23:31.Minister replied that guys Marsh has been made a priority prison, which

:23:32. > :23:34.means the governor is getting extra resorts in addition to our national

:23:35. > :23:39.campaign effort to recruit the staffing needs. Of itself that is

:23:40. > :23:46.excellent news. I thank the Minister for it, I welcome it, as does the

:23:47. > :23:50.governor, but as I pressed in my question, and I make no apologises

:23:51. > :23:54.for pressing again today. Having a prison in a rural area presents

:23:55. > :24:01.problems when it comes to recruitment. The cost of our housing

:24:02. > :24:08.is higher. Public transport scarce. We find our unemployment rate is

:24:09. > :24:14.very low, we only have about 300 people on JS say in North Dorset. So

:24:15. > :24:18.in that recruitment drive, can I urge ministers to ensure that there

:24:19. > :24:24.is flexibility and scope for innovation? That could be providing

:24:25. > :24:28.help for a new prison officer to get a vehicle or motorbike will

:24:29. > :24:33.something to be able to get to and from the prison. It may be helped

:24:34. > :24:39.with relocation or housing costs, some form of grant to help pay for a

:24:40. > :24:43.deposit, a loner or whatever. I also think the terms and conditions could

:24:44. > :24:47.be looked at. I appreciate this is a sensitive area but I would hope that

:24:48. > :24:54.the POA would support something such as that, if the endgame to deliver

:24:55. > :24:57.more prison officers into those prisons, to make the regime and

:24:58. > :25:03.atmosphere much safer for Basta. I also encourage him to work more

:25:04. > :25:12.closely with the MOD. -- safer for their staff. A very fertile

:25:13. > :25:21.recruiting ground for new prison officers.

:25:22. > :25:26.Peter Heaton Harris. I'm sorry, you've conflated two

:25:27. > :25:30.honourable members of this house. I am very closely related to the

:25:31. > :25:34.honourable member but not he. Is it me you intended?

:25:35. > :25:44.Peter Heaton Jones. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. The

:25:45. > :25:47.prisons system faces many challenges, but the Government is

:25:48. > :25:53.taking, I think an enormous steps to address them. We have heard some

:25:54. > :25:57.them today. The investment extra investment of ?1.3 billion to reform

:25:58. > :26:02.and modernise the prison estate is front and centre in the white paper

:26:03. > :26:08.which was published in October of last year. Nonetheless, the prison

:26:09. > :26:13.system does face challenges. I was very taken by the comments of my

:26:14. > :26:17.right honourable and Bernard friend, the member of Rushcliffe, towards

:26:18. > :26:22.the beginning of this debate, when he said nobody on either side of

:26:23. > :26:25.this house would deny the fact there are serious challenges faced by the

:26:26. > :26:31.prison service. That is absolutely the case. I welcome what is in the

:26:32. > :26:35.white paper. I've already mentioned the 1.3 billion to reform our modern

:26:36. > :26:41.eyes the prison estate, which I greatly welcome. As I do the fact

:26:42. > :26:44.that we are now recruiting 2500 front line officers. -- and

:26:45. > :26:48.modernise the prison estate. I was pleased to hear the Lord Chancellor

:26:49. > :26:53.say at the beginning of debate that the further commitment, which was to

:26:54. > :27:01.recruit, to fast track 400 new prison officers into ten of our most

:27:02. > :27:06.challenging prisons by the end of March, that we are already more on

:27:07. > :27:10.track and I think the figure of 389 was mentioned as to the number of

:27:11. > :27:13.appointments that have already been made under that scheme, which I

:27:14. > :27:19.think is excellent news. I want to go on in the time

:27:20. > :27:23.remaining to discuss the points that just concerns me, that is that of

:27:24. > :27:29.security. I have had discussions with ministers on this in the past.

:27:30. > :27:33.In particular the issue around the growing problems of drones being

:27:34. > :27:39.used to deliver drugs, contraband, mobile phones and various other

:27:40. > :27:45.matters into prisons. I've actually long held the view that we haven't

:27:46. > :27:49.quite, as a society, as a community, maybe as a government, grasped the

:27:50. > :27:54.difficulties that drones are now giving us and the explosion in the

:27:55. > :27:59.number of people who own them, quite apart from the security matters in

:28:00. > :28:03.prisons, we've seen the all four cases of near misses with aircraft.

:28:04. > :28:07.I think we need to tackle this. And as part of this problem of security

:28:08. > :28:10.in prisons, I think that is something we need to look at very

:28:11. > :28:15.seriously. I know there are practical measures being taken, such

:28:16. > :28:18.basic things such as netting being put up to prevent things being

:28:19. > :28:22.dropped. I think we need to look at that more carefully, and the issue

:28:23. > :28:28.of drones overall. The other one that does concern me

:28:29. > :28:33.is this continued challenge that we have, with the misuse of mobile

:28:34. > :28:40.phones, with the delivery of mobile phones into prisons using, what I

:28:41. > :28:44.understand it are, increasingly ingenious methods. I don't use that

:28:45. > :28:47.word as praise just that there are new ways being found all the time to

:28:48. > :28:52.deliver mobile phones into prisons. We do have to stop those and we have

:28:53. > :28:57.to do that using practical, hard measures. But I do say this. I think

:28:58. > :29:02.the mobile phone industry has a responsibility here as well. I think

:29:03. > :29:07.there is more they need to do technically, to work with us, to

:29:08. > :29:11.work with the prison authorities, to ensure there are ways blocking

:29:12. > :29:17.mobile phone signals. There is more that can be done. I know only too

:29:18. > :29:22.well that there are many places who don't have mobile phone signals.

:29:23. > :29:27.That is unintentional. I'm sure there is a technical way we can ask

:29:28. > :29:30.the mobile phone operators to take responsibility and to make sure

:29:31. > :29:34.those blackspots are there intentionally, to stop them getting

:29:35. > :29:37.into prisons. I will be supporting the Government's Amendment and I

:29:38. > :29:44.praise the work that's being done and I welcome Paper.

:29:45. > :29:48.Victoria Prentice. It is a pleasure to follow the

:29:49. > :29:51.member for North Devon and indeed one of the most exciting parts of

:29:52. > :29:56.the Secretary of State's speech for me was when she mentioned the pilots

:29:57. > :29:59.on blocking mobile phone signals in prisons. Mobile phones increase the

:30:00. > :30:03.number of organised crime that can be carried out on a daily basis in

:30:04. > :30:08.prison and is critical we deal with this. It is also a pleasure to

:30:09. > :30:14.follow a number of distinguished exes this afternoon who have given

:30:15. > :30:19.fantastic ideas, aren't we lucky? We don't have to recall them as the

:30:20. > :30:22.member of Shipley would like us to believe, in order to benefit from

:30:23. > :30:28.the brilliance of the ideas that they all came up with to improve the

:30:29. > :30:33.serious situation on the safety of our prisons.

:30:34. > :30:40.The Justice committee reported in May 2016, and we urge the government

:30:41. > :30:45.as my honourable colleague mentioned earlier to act quickly on prison

:30:46. > :30:48.safety. It's clear from everything that has been said this afternoon,

:30:49. > :30:54.not least from the Secretary of State, that the emoji is bursting

:30:55. > :30:57.with ideas. The Justice committee welcomes the White Paper. Due cause

:30:58. > :31:03.we will scrutinise and probably welcome a great deal of the police

:31:04. > :31:07.and the bill we have been drip fed negative of this afternoon of what

:31:08. > :31:11.is coming. But in order to do our job of holding the department to

:31:12. > :31:16.account, we do need adequate information. On 29th November, the

:31:17. > :31:21.prisons minister was kind enough to come before Oscar Ouma and said he

:31:22. > :31:24.would give 's monthly performance on safety indicators. We haven't had

:31:25. > :31:32.these, despite chasing, and I urge him once again to produce these as

:31:33. > :31:37.soon as possible. We need it. We have also welcomed the extra money

:31:38. > :31:43.that is being given to our prisons. We know a fit of that will be spent

:31:44. > :31:46.on staff, we welcome that but we need more information about where

:31:47. > :31:58.the rest of that money will be going. We need to know if this

:31:59. > :32:02.works. We need the data to be able to assess that. I understand the

:32:03. > :32:07.frustration of the department, with those of us who say reducing prison

:32:08. > :32:15.numbers is the solution to their problems. My own ideas on who the

:32:16. > :32:21.release, and this is not the committee's ideas, I stress, many of

:32:22. > :32:24.which have been mentioned would include IPP prisoners, foreign

:32:25. > :32:30.national prisoners, though we know it isn't as easy as all that. Women

:32:31. > :32:33.prisoners and their trends have very low reoffending rates but that is

:32:34. > :32:38.tinkering around the edges of the large prison population at the

:32:39. > :32:41.moment. If we can't recruit, as I except the department is trying

:32:42. > :32:46.desperately hard to, would the minister commit today to at least

:32:47. > :32:53.considering whether we should have a shift in the sentencing framework, a

:32:54. > :32:55.shift as the member for Surrey Heath mentioned to community-based

:32:56. > :33:00.alternatives? And the other issue that I would ask him to consider is

:33:01. > :33:09.that we desperately need more secure mental health beds in order that we

:33:10. > :33:12.can screen prisoners immediately on reception in the prison and divert

:33:13. > :33:14.them to the best place for them to be. None of us on the Justice

:33:15. > :33:19.committee think that the prisons minister has an easy job, and we do

:33:20. > :33:24.welcome many of the reforms that the government has set out recently, but

:33:25. > :33:30.we need the data to do our job in holding him to account. It is a

:33:31. > :33:34.pleasure to contribute to this debate. I remember when I was first

:33:35. > :33:41.elected a member of Parliament being taken to the police station to a

:33:42. > :33:46.room where there were 18 faces on the wall, and the police officer

:33:47. > :33:52.said of course when a large number of these people are on the mind or

:33:53. > :33:58.in prison, crime goes down. And when they're not, the opposite happens. I

:33:59. > :34:01.served as a magistrate for six years in Westminster, and though we had

:34:02. > :34:06.very strict guidelines, we listened very carefully to the excellent

:34:07. > :34:13.probation officer before we gave sentencing, obviously, I was always

:34:14. > :34:19.aware that we were making a judgment that I would not know the outcome

:34:20. > :34:23.of, and a few years ago I had the opportunity to visit the Amber

:34:24. > :34:26.foundation in Exeter, a very worthwhile charity that has a number

:34:27. > :34:35.of sites dealing with ex-offenders, giving them a pathway back to full

:34:36. > :34:40.citizenship. I want to use the time available this afternoon to talk

:34:41. > :34:45.about the importance of education, because education and rehabilitation

:34:46. > :34:50.have to be the major focus of the department, because actually unless

:34:51. > :34:53.we get this right we are actually in this awful cycle of putting people

:34:54. > :34:58.away, having them come out and go back in, and the impact on crime

:34:59. > :35:04.levels and on those individuals for the rest of their lives is very

:35:05. > :35:08.poor. I hope that the government will continue their ambition to give

:35:09. > :35:11.real autonomy to prison governors so that we can ensure programmes

:35:12. > :35:16.offered in place are the ones that work for their institution and can

:35:17. > :35:21.command authority to drive real change. But we also need to be

:35:22. > :35:27.realistic about the complexity involved in reforming prison

:35:28. > :35:36.education. I would like the minister to talk about what

:35:37. > :35:43.I am pleased to hear about apprenticeships but given that so

:35:44. > :35:50.many will have learning difficulties and no formal education, will he

:35:51. > :35:56.allow prisoners to have increased pay, time out of cells, or even

:35:57. > :36:00.early release in exceptional places. We must contemplate radical policy

:36:01. > :36:05.options if we are going to see a step change in this area. I would

:36:06. > :36:10.also ask the minister what is his department's view for the balance

:36:11. > :36:19.between providing holistic education focused on developing potential,

:36:20. > :36:21.including the arts but also basic literacy and programmes focused on

:36:22. > :36:25.local labour market outcomes after prison. Will he give sufficient

:36:26. > :36:32.autonomy to local governors on this issue? But we need to bear in mind

:36:33. > :36:35.that a very high proportion of prisoners will have the special

:36:36. > :36:43.educational needs, and will need individual attention, and this will

:36:44. > :36:46.be expensive. What plans does the government have to help with the

:36:47. > :36:52.recruitment of those with the specialist skills to work in what

:36:53. > :36:56.will be a very challenging sector? I welcome the announcement around

:36:57. > :37:00.investment in more resources, but let's not be under any illusions in

:37:01. > :37:04.this house about how complex this challenge is. So I hope the Minister

:37:05. > :37:09.when he responds will give some detail here come and I congratulate

:37:10. > :37:12.the government on getting to grips with many of these issues, and the

:37:13. > :37:18.original thinking I am seeing from the dispatch box. It is a pleasure

:37:19. > :37:21.to follow the member for Salisbury, and with his permission I would like

:37:22. > :37:27.to focus very parochially on Bedford, as it is mentioned in the

:37:28. > :37:32.motion, and to start if I may buy commending the Minister on the

:37:33. > :37:36.afternoon and evening of the disturbance in Bedford, he managed,

:37:37. > :37:40.notwithstanding the responsibilities that he had to recover the

:37:41. > :37:42.situation, to keep me as a member of Parliament fully informed

:37:43. > :37:47.throughout. As the honourable member for Reigate mentioned, this is a

:37:48. > :37:51.hallmark of this particular minister and I am grateful to him. Since that

:37:52. > :37:56.disturbance, that had prison has been recovered and rebuilt. I would

:37:57. > :38:01.ask the minister, as I have been nice to him, if he would also meet

:38:02. > :38:06.with him to discuss the small investment that has been pending for

:38:07. > :38:08.Bedford prison that could make a substantial difference there? I

:38:09. > :38:14.would also like to talk about the issue of accountability, one of the

:38:15. > :38:17.issues leading up to Bedford, there were 72 recommendations by the

:38:18. > :38:22.inspectorate, of which two years later only 12 had been enacted. The

:38:23. > :38:27.governor who has recently returned to her position, I have every

:38:28. > :38:30.confidence she will find remedies to those problems, but perhaps the

:38:31. > :38:33.Minister could address in his remarks how in future does he see as

:38:34. > :38:37.governors are given more accountability how they themselves

:38:38. > :38:41.will be held to account, but in particular in Bedford prison we have

:38:42. > :38:45.an excellent IMB, what will be their role across the country, in terms of

:38:46. > :38:50.accountability? May I also say on the issue of prison officers, we

:38:51. > :38:53.have mentioned very frequently both in terms of numbers and in terms of

:38:54. > :38:59.pay that having spoken to a number of members of the prison officers

:39:00. > :39:03.anonymously after the disturbance, it is clear that two other issues

:39:04. > :39:07.have been bought out. Firstly it is not just about pay, it is also about

:39:08. > :39:12.prestige of the profession. Many members have made very strong

:39:13. > :39:15.confidence to that today, but too often the prison officers are seen

:39:16. > :39:19.as the nearly force, not quite held in the same regard. I would just

:39:20. > :39:22.commend the Minister that there are probably a number of things he could

:39:23. > :39:28.do on the issue of prestige as well as pay that could make a difference,

:39:29. > :39:32.and also I talked about the importance of the issue of

:39:33. > :39:35.experience. There has been a downgrading of the age range of

:39:36. > :39:39.which people can be brought into the prison officer corps, but that has a

:39:40. > :39:44.knock-on effect, in terms of confidence and teamwork when put in

:39:45. > :39:48.a very difficult situation. And finally, as last year was the 150th

:39:49. > :39:53.anniversary of the Howard league, named after a former high Sheriff of

:39:54. > :39:56.John Howard, can I reinforce the comments that have been made about

:39:57. > :40:00.the attention being paid to suicides in prison? This is a pertinent

:40:01. > :40:04.issue, I would be interested what he said. That their 150th anniversary,

:40:05. > :40:09.I said the Howard league were the essential irritant to government on

:40:10. > :40:12.prison reform. Having listened to the opposition today, I have to say

:40:13. > :40:18.unfortunately the Labour Party had absolutely nothing, in terms of

:40:19. > :40:25.positive suggestions, and I hope the Minister himself will do much better

:40:26. > :40:30.in his contributions. Can I start my paying tribute to all prison

:40:31. > :40:33.officers in the country who do a fantastic and difficult and often

:40:34. > :40:39.dangerous job, particularly prison officers in my constituency at HMP

:40:40. > :40:42.Lewes, which has seen disturbances over recent months and was put into

:40:43. > :40:46.special measures just before Christmas will stop I'm not sure if

:40:47. > :40:49.the Shadow minister has been the Lewes prison, I know the prison

:40:50. > :40:53.minister has, and I would encourage him to do so if we hasn't, because

:40:54. > :40:59.having visited the prison myself on a number of occasions, you cannot

:41:00. > :41:04.fail to be moved by the dedication of those prison officers that work

:41:05. > :41:07.there tirelessly. I am disappointed by the motion put forward by

:41:08. > :41:11.opposition members, and I note there are no further opposition members to

:41:12. > :41:14.speak, because it fails to demonstrate any understanding of the

:41:15. > :41:19.issues failing prison officers day in, day out. It isn't just about

:41:20. > :41:22.staffing levels. In Lewes prison for example, there have been a number of

:41:23. > :41:28.vacancies for a while now that have not been able to be filled. I take

:41:29. > :41:31.on board the points made by the member for North Dorset that in a

:41:32. > :41:35.rural constituency in the south-east of England it is hard to fill those

:41:36. > :41:38.vacancies, and irony welcomed the moves by the Secretary of State to

:41:39. > :41:43.move towards local recruitment where a governor can actually manage

:41:44. > :41:47.people leaving and have replacements ready at hand, and manage the skill

:41:48. > :41:52.mix and the experience of their prison officers to make that

:41:53. > :41:55.transition much more easier. The building of Lewes prison, as I have

:41:56. > :41:59.said in my interventions, is a difficult prison to manage. It is an

:42:00. > :42:03.old prison, which makes it very difficult when you are on register

:42:04. > :42:08.numbers of staff to be able to see what is going on. It is also a

:42:09. > :42:11.depressing prison inside. There is hardly any lighting, so not just

:42:12. > :42:19.inmates but for prison officers to work their day in, day out, is tough

:42:20. > :42:22.indeed. Indeed, the inmates there are also changing. The same usual

:42:23. > :42:26.faces that keep coming through the revolving door, there are also

:42:27. > :42:29.prisoners that are there for offences such as sexual offences,

:42:30. > :42:35.which were never there ten or 15 years ago. That has added pressure

:42:36. > :42:39.on the prison officers and the prisoners themselves. But I want to

:42:40. > :42:44.touch on the minute and a half that I have left on the fact that to

:42:45. > :42:49.support my colleague, the honourable member for Salisbury, in his words

:42:50. > :42:52.that we are, the members opposite are not even touching on what is

:42:53. > :42:56.motivating people to commit crime and enter prison in the first place.

:42:57. > :43:00.We know that a quarter of those in our prisons come from the care

:43:01. > :43:05.sector, have been in care at some point in their life, we know that

:43:06. > :43:10.59% of those who are entering prison have been in prison before, and we

:43:11. > :43:14.know that around three quarters of prisoners have problems reading or

:43:15. > :43:19.writing. I went just because there is such short time to do so. -- I

:43:20. > :43:24.went to give way. We absolutely have to deal with the way people enter

:43:25. > :43:28.the prisons. Talking to people in New Haven in my constituency who

:43:29. > :43:32.have come from the care sector in many cases, many of them

:43:33. > :43:35.deliberately commit crime to get into prison because they don't have

:43:36. > :43:40.confidence around housing or care, and many of their friends are in

:43:41. > :43:43.prison already. And until we address those life chances issues, we will

:43:44. > :43:46.be seeing the same people going through the prison system. And I

:43:47. > :43:50.know that this government and the justice department are not just

:43:51. > :43:53.working in isolation, they are working with children's Mr, with the

:43:54. > :43:58.health Minister under the Housing Minister to deal with housing

:43:59. > :44:01.problems, and that is why I am so disappointed with the motion before

:44:02. > :44:05.us by opposition members, because it just fails to tackle any of those

:44:06. > :44:11.issues, which are contributing to prisoner numbers, and they fail to

:44:12. > :44:21.have any understanding of that at all. Last year and Ronald Chowdhury,

:44:22. > :44:25.an extremist preacher and vocal supporter of the death cult Daesh

:44:26. > :44:28.was jailed for five and a half years. Like many I was pleased

:44:29. > :44:31.justice had been served but I was also deeply concerned by what

:44:32. > :44:35.influence he might have over his fellow inmates while serving his

:44:36. > :44:39.sentence. The influence radical inmates can have on other prisoners

:44:40. > :44:42.should not be underestimated. Prisoners -- prisons have already

:44:43. > :44:47.always had gangs and this is just another gang on the prison block. As

:44:48. > :44:51.such I firmly welcomed the measures put into place, particularly the

:44:52. > :44:55.stronger vetting of reasons, chaplains and front line staff and

:44:56. > :44:59.the removal of those spreading extreme violence and corrosive abuse

:45:00. > :45:03.from the general prison population in the specialist units. I would ask

:45:04. > :45:08.the Minister to do all that he can to ensure that once contained in the

:45:09. > :45:10.specialist units, extremists are not able to further collaborate and

:45:11. > :45:15.propagate their dangerous ideologies. I have long asked for

:45:16. > :45:18.tighter vetting the so-called faith leaders, and to ensure that all

:45:19. > :45:25.sermons and services are conducted in English. We hear of a reluctance

:45:26. > :45:28.among prison staff in challenging conditions extremist views,

:45:29. > :45:31.particularly with regards to Islamic beliefs that are radical. Prisons

:45:32. > :45:36.must not be allowed to exist as breeding grounds for the

:45:37. > :45:39.proliferation of Daesh, and it is of vital importance that we continue to

:45:40. > :45:46.push for the appropriate training of prison staff in this area.

:45:47. > :45:54.They must be properly equipped to combat extremism. I was shocked to

:45:55. > :45:59.hear inmates in Belmarsh prison and other prisons had extremist

:46:00. > :46:02.material. Surely the minister would agree this is an offence under the

:46:03. > :46:06.terrorism act and penalties must be served. In addition to this I would

:46:07. > :46:07.ask the Minister to ensure there is greater emphasis on the

:46:08. > :46:20.being at risk of radicalisation. There seems to be a link between

:46:21. > :46:27.mental health and radicalisation. It must run in tandem with the support

:46:28. > :46:29.provided through the programme. Beyond educational assessment

:46:30. > :46:33.prisoner should be screened for radical beliefs on entry to prison

:46:34. > :46:36.in order to make sure that such beliefs are detected as soon as

:46:37. > :46:42.possible. This would mean that from day one prison staff are aware of

:46:43. > :46:45.those likely to pose risks. I would also suggest that prisons record the

:46:46. > :46:50.religious beliefs of inmates if they have any, on entering and exiting

:46:51. > :46:53.prison. This will show how many are converted to an alien faith or

:46:54. > :46:57.forced to convert in prison to survive. As a member of the Home

:46:58. > :47:00.Affairs Select Committee we have investigated the rise of

:47:01. > :47:08.psychoactive substances and I am pleased reforms have been introduced

:47:09. > :47:15.to tackle the use of legal highs in prison. I would ask the Minister to

:47:16. > :47:23.acknowledge the link between mental health and crime. Finally, in order

:47:24. > :47:26.to turn our prisons into places of safety and reform we must track the

:47:27. > :47:29.progress made by prisoners in combating addiction and addressing

:47:30. > :47:39.extremist prison gangs and the levels of red religious conversion

:47:40. > :47:41.and help our prisoners gain critical skills and the educational

:47:42. > :47:48.requirements they need to get a job on function outside prison.

:47:49. > :47:51.I enter into this debate with some amount of trepidation, if I'm

:47:52. > :47:55.honest. We seem to have a veritable cricket team of former prison

:47:56. > :48:00.ministers or lawyers who have been involved in it. Can I pay tribute to

:48:01. > :48:07.my honourable friend for Reigate, who ended up coming up with me on a

:48:08. > :48:12.cricket tour to Jamaica, where we went and visited a very interesting

:48:13. > :48:18.prison, and the work he did to make sure there will be a new prison so

:48:19. > :48:19.we can hope for a transfer some of the Jamaican prisoners from this

:48:20. > :48:30.country back to Jamaica. I am not going to pretend for a

:48:31. > :48:34.moment I have any prisoners in my constituency. Indeed I worked in the

:48:35. > :48:43.1980s and 90s as the Conservative Party agent for the Prisons Minister

:48:44. > :48:47.at the time, and I learned quite a bit. We visited Wandsworth prison,

:48:48. > :48:51.where they were seeking to try and get Ronnie Biggs to go back to.

:48:52. > :48:58.Indeed, when I said would they like, what had actually happened, they

:48:59. > :49:02.said they wanted him to go back and collect his staff in person, which

:49:03. > :49:08.he eventually, I think, went and did. I have got in my constituency

:49:09. > :49:13.probably the busiest custody suite in the whole of the country. It

:49:14. > :49:17.seems in my mind that is where we have to start from. There are three

:49:18. > :49:20.things which I think we have to make sure happen. First of all we need to

:49:21. > :49:26.make sure people can read and write and also add up. Can I commend the

:49:27. > :49:32.Government on producing this league of prisons, which are achieving

:49:33. > :49:36.that, I think that is good news. Secondly it's about making sure we

:49:37. > :49:40.get them off drugs and I think that is something that the Government is

:49:41. > :49:45.quite aware of. The third thing, which I think is very important, of

:49:46. > :49:49.course I represent a naval garrison city, with a large Royal Marine

:49:50. > :49:55.population, which is going to grow as well. Can I pay tribute to Trevor

:49:56. > :49:58.Philpott who runs an organisation called veterans change partnership,

:49:59. > :50:03.which is seeking to change the justice system so that we don't get

:50:04. > :50:08.the veterans into the justice system in the first place. If I may

:50:09. > :50:13.encourage the justice system also to make sure they make greater use of

:50:14. > :50:16.those people who have served in the military when they are magistrates,

:50:17. > :50:19.that would be incredibly helpful, because at least they have some idea

:50:20. > :50:23.as to what happens. I'm sorry, I'm not going to give away because I am

:50:24. > :50:30.sure of time. It seems to my mind, the other point I would also make

:50:31. > :50:36.is, I was involved in an organisation called Forward Assessed

:50:37. > :50:38.whether Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary got involved. When I was

:50:39. > :50:43.on the northern Ireland select committee we went down, to a

:50:44. > :50:48.community in Washington, and we learned how they were dealing with

:50:49. > :50:51.the veterans. What they have is a veterans treatment Court as well.

:50:52. > :50:56.That is something I would urge the Government to have a look at in no

:50:57. > :51:00.uncertain terms. This is a vital that we get that right, and also we

:51:01. > :51:04.do something about mental health and I would ask the Government to look

:51:05. > :51:08.at better training for prison officers, because they do

:51:09. > :51:11.brilliantly good job and I have a lot of prison officers in my

:51:12. > :51:16.constituency who work in Dartmoor and I look forward to going to see

:51:17. > :51:24.Exeter and Dartmoor outside my constituency as well. Thank you very

:51:25. > :51:28.much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It

:51:29. > :51:33.is a pleasure to be able to close this debate. I think it is right and

:51:34. > :51:39.that everyone agrees we have heard from people who have spoken very

:51:40. > :51:46.eloquently and knowledgeably about the issues that are facing our

:51:47. > :51:52.prison system. Before I go into what those members have said I do want to

:51:53. > :51:55.thank our prison officers, prison governors and all those who work in

:51:56. > :52:02.the prison services, because they face very challenging challenges

:52:03. > :52:05.every day in their lives and I think we owe them a lot for the work that

:52:06. > :52:10.they do for us in the prison services.

:52:11. > :52:15.I want to start with what the honourable member for Don Valley

:52:16. > :52:21.said, who has three prisons in her constituency, and she talked about

:52:22. > :52:25.the work she had achieved as a former minister, about trying to

:52:26. > :52:32.reduce the number of violence in prisons. She has set out some of the

:52:33. > :52:36.comprehensive failures of this government. I'm sorry if that is

:52:37. > :52:41.going to disappoint members opposite, but as I will expand

:52:42. > :52:44.later, there have been failures to tackle some of the big issues facing

:52:45. > :52:54.our prisons. We also heard from the honourable

:52:55. > :52:59.member who had three prisons in her constituency. She talked about the

:53:00. > :53:06.prison budget cut by, she talked about the ?900 million taken away

:53:07. > :53:12.from prisons. Obviously it's going to affect our prisons are run and

:53:13. > :53:18.the impact on staff. She raised three questions she thought that the

:53:19. > :53:22.prisons should be looking at -- the prison minister should be looking

:53:23. > :53:25.at. The fact there are too many women in prison, particularly women

:53:26. > :53:29.with children, and there doesn't seem to be any clear strategy in

:53:30. > :53:34.place in the prison system to be able to deal with those situations.

:53:35. > :53:40.If children can visit their parents, or how to assist them. It is also

:53:41. > :53:45.reflected in the fact from the Ministry of Justice's on facts that

:53:46. > :53:51.the number of suicides that have occurred in prison, a much higher

:53:52. > :53:57.percentage were women. She talked about reoffending on the issue of

:53:58. > :54:03.education and training, which would stop reoffending taking place and

:54:04. > :54:06.talked about mental health issues and personality disorders. Again,

:54:07. > :54:11.there has been a cut in the funding for the services and those things

:54:12. > :54:17.need to be addressed as well. I also want to come on to what the

:54:18. > :54:25.honourable member for Chesterfield said when he talked about the fact

:54:26. > :54:32.that many experienced staff had left the prison service replaced by

:54:33. > :54:35.inexperienced staff and I think it's well accepted experienced officers,

:54:36. > :54:41.whilst carrying out their duties as prison officers, do far more than

:54:42. > :54:45.just locking and unlocking the gates and taking prisoners in and out.

:54:46. > :54:50.They are often only the only person the prisoners will be speaking to.

:54:51. > :54:56.It's been accepted that they act as, you could say, advisors, family

:54:57. > :55:01.members, a listening ear, someone who is sympathetic. I think to have

:55:02. > :55:07.inexperienced people taking over these roles is not good enough.

:55:08. > :55:15.Therefore, I agree wholeheartedly with what the honourable member for

:55:16. > :55:23.Shipley... I can't remember... Said when he talked about the tremendous

:55:24. > :55:27.work prison officers do and the fact their terms and conditions should be

:55:28. > :55:34.looked at properly and they should be put on the same footing as other

:55:35. > :55:37.people involved and doing these difficult, sensitive jobs, like

:55:38. > :55:46.police officers, and they should be remunerated properly. It is right to

:55:47. > :55:50.say since the Government came in in 2010 they did make massive cuts in

:55:51. > :55:56.prison officers numbers, and that is one of the big reasons why we have

:55:57. > :56:00.got some of the issues that we have in prisons. It's all very well for

:56:01. > :56:03.the Government to say, well, we are trying to do things, and that's

:56:04. > :56:06.good, but they should never have done that in the first place,

:56:07. > :56:13.because if they hadn't cut those numbers in the first place and made

:56:14. > :56:21.that false economy, we wouldn't be in half the mess that we are in now.

:56:22. > :56:25.I try not to be party political about this, but I think it was the

:56:26. > :56:31.wrong decision... It was the wrong decision, and I think it would be

:56:32. > :56:40.really good if the Government accepted that that was a wrong

:56:41. > :56:43.decision. Owning up to the fact it was an error, there's no harm in

:56:44. > :56:49.that. Now, when I come to what some of the

:56:50. > :56:59.other members have said, one of the suggestions put forward for trying

:57:00. > :57:03.to deal with some of the prison problems, what the honourable member

:57:04. > :57:06.for Surrey Reigate said, I have to set the chairman of the Home Affairs

:57:07. > :57:09.Select Committee, whilst I was on his committee I agreed with him on

:57:10. > :57:14.the international issues moral or less, private Asian is not the

:57:15. > :57:19.answer in prisons. It hasn't been for probation. I think we have found

:57:20. > :57:22.that probation service is used to have full staff gold rating but

:57:23. > :57:27.since the privatisation has taken place, it has gone downhill. That

:57:28. > :57:35.has some impact into what is going on in the prison service as well.

:57:36. > :57:39.And then there's of course... Of course I will give way.

:57:40. > :57:47.I'm very grateful to the honourable lady and the Foreign Affairs

:57:48. > :57:51.Committee's losses the front bench's gain. I would just like to ask if

:57:52. > :57:58.she could be explicit here about the potential role of the private sector

:57:59. > :58:01.under Labour policy, it was Labour who had a commercialisation strategy

:58:02. > :58:05.and opened up the competition for Birmingham prison in the first

:58:06. > :58:08.place. This is the Labour Party saying there is no role for the

:58:09. > :58:15.private sector in the delivery of justice in our country, simply on

:58:16. > :58:25.ideological grounds? Well, the Labour Party also had IPPs

:58:26. > :58:28.and I was not one of the people that favoured that particular provision.

:58:29. > :58:34.In fact I will touch on about the impact of that into our prison

:58:35. > :58:42.system. The Secretary of State spoke about the fact they are trying to

:58:43. > :58:47.deal with the issues arising from IPP. The reason so many people have

:58:48. > :58:51.done their sentence on IPPs is not because they can't get out, it's

:58:52. > :58:58.because they have to go on training courses. Unless they've done those

:58:59. > :59:02.designated, specific training courses, they can't get out.

:59:03. > :59:09.Unfortunately there has been lack of funding for those training courses,

:59:10. > :59:12.and the Government has to take responsibility for the fact a lot of

:59:13. > :59:19.those people have not been released from prison as well. As I said, it's

:59:20. > :59:28.been a really interesting and really good debate because we've had a lot

:59:29. > :59:32.of experience people, ministers, ex-ministers and Secretary of States

:59:33. > :59:39.for justice here who have spoken about this. I think what we can all

:59:40. > :59:44.agree on is this is something everyone is concerned about. It's

:59:45. > :59:50.not a big vote winner or an issue you often get people talking about

:59:51. > :59:56.on the doorsteps, but it is an issue, because it shows us for what

:59:57. > :00:00.we stand for as society. The one thing we can agree on and most

:00:01. > :00:01.people agree with me, we have got problems and there are crises in our

:00:02. > :00:12.our prison systems. The honourable member for Dell in

:00:13. > :00:17.that used to be a former minister set out and talk about some of the

:00:18. > :00:19.proposals in the White Paper that the government have brought forward

:00:20. > :00:24.as we are dealing with this issue, but talks about all the

:00:25. > :00:30.shortcomings. He talked about all the answers not provided for,

:00:31. > :00:35.because it seems to suggest, well, you will have age prison being risen

:00:36. > :00:40.by -- being run by prison governors and it is not answering the issue

:00:41. > :00:45.like Will the governor have complete autonomy in the centre, will they

:00:46. > :00:55.have enough money to carry out other thing they are wanting to do. Will

:00:56. > :00:58.the inmates require too trip detoxification rehabilitation

:00:59. > :01:03.programme, will he or she have that money to do so? It is very well to

:01:04. > :01:06.say you can do this but where is the funding going to come? Will they

:01:07. > :01:10.have an unlimited pot of money to be able to do this? How are these

:01:11. > :01:13.people going to be recruited, who will they be answerable to? There

:01:14. > :01:19.are lots of things in the White Paper which are not being answered

:01:20. > :01:23.and do not deal with the problem. You have raised a number of issues

:01:24. > :01:27.but I'm yet to hear what the solutions are from your side of the

:01:28. > :01:33.house was top could I also ask the honourable lady does she agree with

:01:34. > :01:36.shallow chakra party, the shadow Attorney General, that half the

:01:37. > :01:42.present pollution should be released? If the honourable member

:01:43. > :01:48.had been here in the chamber at the beginning of the debate, this

:01:49. > :01:53.question was put by her predecessor. It was put by another member who was

:01:54. > :02:01.present to ask that question, I think the honourable member for

:02:02. > :02:06.Shipley. You are the government and it is for you to deal with the

:02:07. > :02:09.crisis of... You're order, the honourable lady will take her seat

:02:10. > :02:13.when the chair is standing, thank you. Can I just remind the

:02:14. > :02:17.honourable lady there is a reason why we don't address people directly

:02:18. > :02:20.in the second person, and that is because things get very, very

:02:21. > :02:26.heated, and that is why the honourable lady addresses her

:02:27. > :02:29.remarks through the chair, thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:02:30. > :02:38.Speaker, for that, and I apologise for that. To come onto question of

:02:39. > :02:41.they are the government, they have been in power for the last seven

:02:42. > :02:51.years, prisons have been under their control and it is under their watch

:02:52. > :02:55.that 6000 staff cuts have been made. It is under their watch that a

:02:56. > :03:08.quarter of prisoners, I only have three and a half minutes. Given the

:03:09. > :03:13.huge crisis that the honourable lady is outlining to the house, which

:03:14. > :03:18.clearly she and her front bench colleagues share, could she is going

:03:19. > :03:25.to on an opposition Dave motion they ran out of speakers and we didn't?

:03:26. > :03:31.If that is trying to deflect away from what the government should have

:03:32. > :03:38.been doing for the last seven years. Prison staff cut by 6000, around a

:03:39. > :03:43.quarter of all prisons in overcrowded or unsuitable

:03:44. > :03:54.conditions. Over the last 12 months there have been 6000 assaults, 105

:03:55. > :04:01.self-inflicted deaths of prisoners, a record. For mental health and

:04:02. > :04:11.distress. Incidents of self harm in prison have increased by over 25% in

:04:12. > :04:15.2016 from previous years. So when we look at all the statistics that have

:04:16. > :04:22.been provided by the Ministry of Justice, it shows self harm has gone

:04:23. > :04:28.up, assaults have gone up, deaths have occurred, suicide has happened,

:04:29. > :04:32.and I afraid to say that is the responsibility of this government

:04:33. > :04:43.because you have been in charge of prison for the last seven years.

:04:44. > :04:51.Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to echo the comments by the member

:04:52. > :04:56.for Bolton South East in thanking our brave prison officers for the

:04:57. > :05:02.hard work they do, but also extend that thanks to the Tornado prison

:05:03. > :05:06.officers who have been active for the last few months and have done a

:05:07. > :05:13.splendid job. This debate has been very well-informed and a lively

:05:14. > :05:18.debate at times. There has been one speaker from plate camera, five from

:05:19. > :05:24.the -- Plaid Cymru, five from the Labour benches and 13 from the

:05:25. > :05:28.government's side. The government speakers include all former prison

:05:29. > :05:35.ministers and two former Justice secretaries. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:05:36. > :05:39.would say that that shows how seriously we take issues to do with

:05:40. > :05:48.our prisons but also turning around people's lives on the side of the

:05:49. > :05:52.house. This side of the house has owned up to the problem. My right

:05:53. > :05:55.noble friend the Secretary of State said right from the time she was

:05:56. > :06:00.appointed at the level of violence in prisons is too high and has

:06:01. > :06:06.acknowledged that staffing is part of what is a conflict is problem but

:06:07. > :06:10.is part of the answer of what is a conflict problem that has developed

:06:11. > :06:15.over a very long period of time. So there is consensus across the house

:06:16. > :06:20.that as far as problems are concerned, we are all agreed

:06:21. > :06:25.something needs to be done. The difference between the side and that

:06:26. > :06:29.side is that if the 30 minutes that the opposition front bench

:06:30. > :06:33.spokesperson spoke as the member for Surrey Heath so erudite 2-putted, we

:06:34. > :06:41.did not get a single positive alternative suggestion. In fact it

:06:42. > :06:46.reminded me, this house was once referred to as the gasworks.

:06:47. > :06:52.Listening to the shadow opposition front bench, I sort of realised why.

:06:53. > :06:59.His speech was full of hot air. Our plan is very, very clear. We have

:07:00. > :07:04.said in a media terms what we will do is we are monitoring and

:07:05. > :07:10.supporting governors -- immediate terms, in the longer term we are

:07:11. > :07:13.tackling security threats to improve staffing levels and transform the

:07:14. > :07:17.way prison officers support and challenge prisoners. As part of

:07:18. > :07:21.that, we are looking at raising the prestige, their status and the role

:07:22. > :07:28.of prison officers. These are not just words, they are back by action

:07:29. > :07:31.that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State referred to. New

:07:32. > :07:35.paper and new investment secured the investment staffing, a prison and

:07:36. > :07:41.Courts built on the way, and implant strategy on the way, a strategy to

:07:42. > :07:44.deal with women offenders, on the way, and this is real action to

:07:45. > :07:54.tackle the very serious problems in our prisons. I am very grateful to

:07:55. > :07:59.the Minister forgiving way. Does he take any responsibility at all for

:08:00. > :08:07.the deterioration in our prisons since 2010? My right honourable

:08:08. > :08:11.friend the Secretary of State made very clear it is incredibly

:08:12. > :08:16.simplistic to allude to the fact that problems in our prisons are

:08:17. > :08:22.simply due to staffing. We have the rise of new psychoactive substances,

:08:23. > :08:26.old taboos are being broken in booze now. It used to be the case you

:08:27. > :08:29.never attacked a female prison officer, but now we are seeing that

:08:30. > :08:34.routinely on our wings. Our prisons have changed and to deal with that

:08:35. > :08:37.convex problem we need a multifaceted set of answers, and

:08:38. > :08:44.that is what this government is delivering. On the two principal

:08:45. > :08:50.points the opposition made, the first was overcrowding. We still do

:08:51. > :08:55.not know whether the front bench agrees with itself, in terms of

:08:56. > :08:58.where Lady chakra buddy is, whether we should be reducing prison number

:08:59. > :09:03.is to the tune in 40 5000. Even on the issue of prison officers, when

:09:04. > :09:06.the member for Peterborough challenge the front bench

:09:07. > :09:11.spokesperson on whether they would commit to increasing prison numbers,

:09:12. > :09:18.prison officer numbers, by 2500 officers, they still could not agree

:09:19. > :09:22.or make that commitment. So I am no wiser as to what the solution that

:09:23. > :09:28.side of the house is offering to a problem that they say is critical,

:09:29. > :09:32.yet in calling for this debate they have not been able to offer a

:09:33. > :09:36.solution. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the brief time I have two sum up, I

:09:37. > :09:41.will pick up some of the points that were made in the debate. The member

:09:42. > :09:46.for Don Valley made a very good speech and I agree with her on

:09:47. > :09:50.leadership that we want governors to stay put for longer and we also want

:09:51. > :09:54.to make sure that in terms of staffing it is effective on the

:09:55. > :10:00.wings and we do not have the one to 60 ratio that she mentions, I

:10:01. > :10:04.totally agree with her. From the Secretary of State, the member for

:10:05. > :10:08.Surrey Heath, made a character 's Cliff erudite speech and I agree

:10:09. > :10:15.with him on the need for smarter automotives the incarceration, and I

:10:16. > :10:18.would say that one way of doing this is dealing with problems before

:10:19. > :10:21.custody. But also he mentioned problem-solving courts. We are

:10:22. > :10:32.currently trialling the concept and it is one I am very hopeful about. I

:10:33. > :10:36.would like to commend my honourable friend's points, but would he also

:10:37. > :10:41.agree with me that in order to break the cycle of reoffending, tackling

:10:42. > :10:46.substance misuse is key but also key upon discharge and release from

:10:47. > :10:51.prison, and there is a real problem with misuse areas in many areas, and

:10:52. > :11:00.that is hopefully an area he will look at. My honourable friend makes

:11:01. > :11:02.an excellent point something my friend the member for Bracknell,

:11:03. > :11:08.also a former doctor, is dealing with, and we will be looking at this

:11:09. > :11:15.when we bring our proposals later. The former prison minister, the

:11:16. > :11:20.member Fidelio, who I always enjoy listening to, given his constructive

:11:21. > :11:25.approach, made a number of points around government empowerment, local

:11:26. > :11:26.increment, but also performance management force surveys are

:11:27. > :11:30.detailed and constructive points. By never just a select committee has

:11:31. > :11:33.written asking for answers to some of these questions, and I would

:11:34. > :11:38.ensure they get a rapid response, but in addition to that, I would

:11:39. > :11:41.offer a meeting to sit down with him and the subcommittee looking at

:11:42. > :11:49.prisons to talk about some of the detail of the White Paper. Madam

:11:50. > :11:53.Deputy Speaker, a number of issues were raised around staffing which my

:11:54. > :11:55.right honourable friend the Secretary of State Telford

:11:56. > :11:59.eloquently in terms of our plans in the White Paper and how we would

:12:00. > :12:06.deal with them subsequently. I just want to pick a couple of other

:12:07. > :12:10.options. He was unable to accept in response to my honourable friend's

:12:11. > :12:12.question any responsible at the Ford has happened. He is right to say

:12:13. > :12:17.that staffing is not the only problem but part of the problem. We

:12:18. > :12:24.are 6000 prison officers down, will he replace them? Yes or no? If my

:12:25. > :12:28.honourable friend had been following this debate carefully, he would know

:12:29. > :12:34.that we have also closed 18 prisons in that time. As the member said,

:12:35. > :12:38.drugs etc, it is a very convex problem. Anyway, the government has

:12:39. > :12:42.committed to increasing the number of prison officer numbers. Today the

:12:43. > :12:45.opposition would not even match our number so I do not think I will be

:12:46. > :12:50.taking lessons from the opposition on what to do in terms of staffing

:12:51. > :12:55.numbers in our prisons is concerned. I want to touch on an issue raised

:12:56. > :13:01.to the member of the Sittingbourne in Shipley, dealing with mainly

:13:02. > :13:06.attacks on prison officers. I completely agree with the points he

:13:07. > :13:09.made, announcing prisoners should feel the full force of the law.

:13:10. > :13:14.There are of course independent adjudicator is that can already

:13:15. > :13:20.impose additional days on prisoners, but also we are working with the

:13:21. > :13:24.Attorney General, the police and the CPS to insure offenders face swift

:13:25. > :13:28.justice, and we can provide better evidence in the courts. We are also

:13:29. > :13:39.working with the Judiciary Committee of error clear powers so they can --

:13:40. > :13:42.with the judiciary so there are clear powers so they can identify

:13:43. > :13:47.crimes. We want body worn cameras across the estate. The member for

:13:48. > :13:54.Leicester East mentioned the issue of foreign national offenders, in

:13:55. > :13:57.the last year we had record number of offenders that were deported to

:13:58. > :14:04.their home countries. There is still a lot of work to do, and there is a

:14:05. > :14:09.task force made up of ministers for the Home Office, looking for all the

:14:10. > :14:13.levers around our relationships with these countries in order to deport

:14:14. > :14:19.people as quickly as possible. So, Madam Debuchy Speaker, we have heard

:14:20. > :14:23.in a debate that the opposition called for no positive alternative

:14:24. > :14:28.to the plans that have been offered by the government. I would urge all

:14:29. > :14:31.members to vote for a Cliff line that the government has put forward

:14:32. > :14:39.to deal with the challenging issue in our prisons that would also help

:14:40. > :14:45.us turn around people's lives. The question is that the original words

:14:46. > :15:41.than part of the question. Say I. Say no. Division, clear the lobby.

:15:42. > :29:19.Order, order. The the one to the right 196, the Turn two to the left,

:29:20. > :29:34.189. The ayes to the right were 196 and the nos to the left were 189 so

:29:35. > :29:40.that Inter macro habit. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:29:41. > :29:46.Order, order. I now have the announced the result of the deferred

:29:47. > :29:51.division on the question relating to financial services. The ayes were

:29:52. > :29:57.292, the nos were 191, so the ayes have it.

:29:58. > :30:04.I inform the House that the Speaker has selected the amendment in the

:30:05. > :30:10.name of the Prime Minister. Before I call the honourable lady to move the

:30:11. > :30:16.motion. Can I point out there are 636 men's -- members wishing to seek

:30:17. > :30:20.speak. Can I ask the front Bens to be as concise as possible and to

:30:21. > :30:24.members wishing to speak, if they are making intervention on front

:30:25. > :30:28.benchers they will find their names Mr yously slip down the speaking

:30:29. > :30:34.list, and I am sorry to say we will start with a limit of three minutes

:30:35. > :30:37.so if people could keep their interventions to an absolute

:30:38. > :30:40.minimum, it means that everybody might get in, otherwise there will

:30:41. > :30:47.be people at the bottom of list who will not be able to speak. So will

:30:48. > :30:54.that let's get going. Angela Raynor. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I

:30:55. > :31:01.will try and keep interventions to a minimum.

:31:02. > :31:04.We have heard much this week, Madame Deputy Speaker about representing

:31:05. > :31:09.the mandate the people have given news this House, so today, I am

:31:10. > :31:14.giving members opposite the chance to do that, to implement the pledge

:31:15. > :31:18.that they gave the country, in their election manifesto, that said under

:31:19. > :31:23.a future Conservative Government, the amount of money following your

:31:24. > :31:27.child into school will be protected. There will be a real terms increase

:31:28. > :31:32.in the schools budget, in the next Parliament. A pledge that was

:31:33. > :31:36.repeatedly made by the last Prime Minister, the one who actually

:31:37. > :31:40.fought an election, and he was very clear what it meant, he said I can

:31:41. > :31:44.tell you with a Conservative Government the amount of money

:31:45. > :31:49.following your child into school will not be cut. There is one

:31:50. > :31:53.question that the Secretary of State has to answer today. Will she keep

:31:54. > :31:59.her party's promise to the British people? The National Audit Office

:32:00. > :32:04.has told us their answer, they have revealed on the current spending

:32:05. > :32:12.settlement there will be an 8% cut in pupil funding. Between 2015 and

:32:13. > :32:16.2020. That was the same conclusion that was reached by the Institute

:32:17. > :32:22.for Fiscal Studies, this means that there will be schools in every

:32:23. > :32:26.region, every city, every town and every constituency, losing money

:32:27. > :32:31.because of the failure of this Government to protect funding to our

:32:32. > :32:37.schools. So will the Secretary of State tell us whether she intends to

:32:38. > :32:42.keep that manifesto pledge? And let us consider the context, I will make

:32:43. > :32:46.some progress, Britain has a deep social mobility problem and for this

:32:47. > :32:53.generation in particular, it is getting worse not better as a result

:32:54. > :32:57.of an unfair education system, a two tier labour market and imbalanced

:32:58. > :33:02.economy and unaffordable housing mark. That was the conclusion of the

:33:03. > :33:08.Government's own social mobility commission and what about our

:33:09. > :33:13.education system? We still have too many under performing schools, and

:33:14. > :33:20.low overall levels of numeracy and literacy. England remains the only

:33:21. > :33:27.OCD country where 16-24-year-olds are no more literal than

:33:28. > :33:30.55-64-year-olds. Again, not my conclusion, but that of the

:33:31. > :33:34.Government's only industrial strategy green paper which quite

:33:35. > :33:36.rightly makes clear how central education is to our economy,

:33:37. > :33:42.especially following Brexit. I give way. Grateful to my

:33:43. > :33:49.honourable friend. This broken pledge about funding schools and

:33:50. > :33:57.increasing funding 74 out of 77 schools, 96% of them face cuts of

:33:58. > :34:01.over ?200,000 by 2019 in real terms. How is that defendable and how is

:34:02. > :34:06.that evidence of a government that cares about education? I thank my

:34:07. > :34:09.honourable friend for his intervention and I agree with him,

:34:10. > :34:16.there is no justification for these cuts. The Secretary of State has, of

:34:17. > :34:21.course, unveiled the proposal solution, her so-called national

:34:22. > :34:27.fair funding formula, she presented this as a reverse distribution and

:34:28. > :34:31.on the Government's own figures they are literally robber Peterborough to

:34:32. > :34:34.pay for Poole. It doesn't take long for members on Bowe sides to

:34:35. > :34:39.discover not only is there nothing fair about the proposed funding

:34:40. > :34:43.formula but it also won't make up for overall real terms cuts.

:34:44. > :34:48.Concerns is about what this means for our constituents are shared on

:34:49. > :34:52.both sides of the House, that the honourable member for Brexle has

:34:53. > :34:55.said his message sides to discover not only is there nothing fair about

:34:56. > :34:58.the proposed funding formula but it also won't make up for overall real

:34:59. > :35:00.terms cuts. Concerns is about what this means for our constituents are

:35:01. > :35:03.shared on both sides of the House, that the honourable member for

:35:04. > :35:05.Brexle has said his message to the minister is "I don't get this and I

:35:06. > :35:08.don't think it is particularly fair." I hope we will see him in the

:35:09. > :35:10.came ber and he will put his concerns forward. The honourable

:35:11. > :35:13.member for Altrincham sale west said every secondary school in Trafford

:35:14. > :35:15.will lose funding, even though it is one of the places famously

:35:16. > :35:22.underfunded for education, perhaps we will hear if him too. The

:35:23. > :35:27.honourable member for Cheltenham who co-chaired the F 40 group. He said

:35:28. > :35:33.just this morning that the bottom line is that this, it has created

:35:34. > :35:37.distorted outcomes which we think require significant remodelling. No

:35:38. > :35:42.wonder he is concerned, because nearly half of the F 40 group will

:35:43. > :35:46.face further cuts, rather than increased under the minister's

:35:47. > :35:51.national funding fiddle. Of course, there is one member opposite who

:35:52. > :35:57.seems happy to accept the cuts and that is the Secretary of State

:35:58. > :36:01.herself. The Secretary of State is set to cut schools, they are set to

:36:02. > :36:08.lose round 15% of their funding per pupil. Perhaps she will be lobbying

:36:09. > :36:15.herself. The honourable member's listing members that are unhappy. I

:36:16. > :36:20.like she am unhappy in Southend all the schools are receiving a cut

:36:21. > :36:24.under this funding formula, I think the only area local authority area

:36:25. > :36:30.outside Central London where that is the case. This is a point this is

:36:31. > :36:34.not a final decision, the figures I got were from the House of Commons

:36:35. > :36:40.library, I may have misread them, but is the point not this is a

:36:41. > :36:43.consultation? If this was a fait accompli I wouldn't be supporting

:36:44. > :36:46.the honourable lady but this is a consultation.

:36:47. > :36:49.I hope that the honourable members will make contributions today, I

:36:50. > :36:54.think the motion that is set out to honourable members across the House

:36:55. > :37:00.today, makes it quite clear that the cocktail of cuts that our schools

:37:01. > :37:05.are facing is going to see 98% of schools losing out, so o hope that

:37:06. > :37:18.the Government do think again about their proposals. She is making a

:37:19. > :37:26.powerful speech. In my constituency we are looking to cuts coming in of

:37:27. > :37:28.?437 per pupil. With the Government saying it believes in social

:37:29. > :37:34.mobility and wants to support that and with a third of our children not

:37:35. > :37:38.achieving five good G7, doesn't she agree with me, it is the wrong time

:37:39. > :37:44.to cut funding for schools four pupils that most need it. It. It an

:37:45. > :37:49.own goal. I absolutely agree with the honourable member. I would go so

:37:50. > :37:52.far to say the meritocracy is in shatters already, that the Prime

:37:53. > :37:58.Minister is talking about. The National Audit Office has said that

:37:59. > :38:03.she expects schools to make ?1.7 billion of savings by using staff

:38:04. > :38:08.more efficiently. Can she guarantee today that these so-called

:38:09. > :38:13.efficiency doesn't mean fewer staff? Because a ?1.7 billion cut could

:38:14. > :38:19.mean up to o 10,000 redundancies for teaching staff in our schools. Of

:38:20. > :38:24.course she resolutely failed to give us figures for the impact of the

:38:25. > :38:29.planned cuts, but her own analysis of the research, that the education

:38:30. > :38:34.unions have conducted show the cuts in my own region would amount to

:38:35. > :38:41.well over ?400 million, requiring the loss of over 2,000 teachers.

:38:42. > :38:47.Given that her own Government, given that the Government has failed to

:38:48. > :38:51.meet their own teacher requirement target. I urge the Secretary of

:38:52. > :38:56.State to think again before she tries to solve this on the back of

:38:57. > :39:01.hard-working staff. And make no mistake, that this is a crisis.

:39:02. > :39:06.Schools are already resorting to staff cuts to cope. The unison staff

:39:07. > :39:13.survey conducted last year showed then more than one in ten remembers

:39:14. > :39:18.pen dents reported redundancies. More than one in five said their

:39:19. > :39:22.school left vacant posts unfilled over the past year or cut back on

:39:23. > :39:27.maintenance, nearly a quarter had seen increase in class sizes and

:39:28. > :39:30.over a quarter experienced cuts to budgets for books and resources over

:39:31. > :39:35.the past year. I give way.

:39:36. > :39:40.I am grateful to the honourable lady for giving way. To come back to fair

:39:41. > :39:50.funding. I am sorry she doesn't agree with that. How can she justify

:39:51. > :39:58.that a child in the constituency of her leader will receive ?6229 a year

:39:59. > :40:03.on average and in the Shadow Home Secretary's constituency 6680. Many

:40:04. > :40:11.in my constituency in West Sussex it will be less than ?4200. How can

:40:12. > :40:14.that be justified? I say to the honourable member, that the Labour

:40:15. > :40:19.Party is for fair funding but this isn't fair funding. This is sub fair

:40:20. > :40:23.funding for every school across the nation. -- unfair. You should take,

:40:24. > :40:26.the honourable member should take heed of what that means for his own

:40:27. > :40:32.constituency. And that pulling people down is not the way to go

:40:33. > :40:37.forward. If we want to make the best of our economy, post-Brexit, is we

:40:38. > :40:42.need to make sure we invest in all schools, instead of taking from one

:40:43. > :40:46.school, robbing from one group of young people yet seeing an overall

:40:47. > :40:55.distribution cut throughout. I am going to carry on. Make progress.

:40:56. > :41:01.It is no surprise that the National Audit Office found that between 2010

:41:02. > :41:08.and 2015 the number of maintained schools are in deficit, rose from

:41:09. > :41:13.nearly 33% to nearly 60%. The report refers to a sample schools that said

:41:14. > :41:19.typical savings were through increased class sizes. Replacing

:41:20. > :41:23.experienced teachers with new recruits, recruiting staff on

:41:24. > :41:28.temporary contracts, encouraging staff to teach outside their

:41:29. > :41:31.specialist and relying on more unqualified staff. None of the

:41:32. > :41:36.measures are ones that parents would want to see in their school. The

:41:37. > :41:40.National Audit Office tells us that her department's estimates for

:41:41. > :41:43.savings do not take into account the real impact on schools.

:41:44. > :41:48.For instance, the Government seemed to remain committed to cutting the

:41:49. > :41:52.national education service's grant which amounts to 600 million, but

:41:53. > :41:56.has not yet completed any assessment of how this will impact on schools

:41:57. > :42:02.across England. When will this assessment be put to the House? Just

:42:03. > :42:06.this Monday, the Public Accounts Committee heard from head teachers

:42:07. > :42:10.who are desperately trying to keep providing an excellent education

:42:11. > :42:14.system, in the face of funding cuts. I hope the Secretary of State heard

:42:15. > :42:20.Kate Davis, head teacher of Darton college in Barnsley for example. She

:42:21. > :42:22.said that the result of House? Just this Monday, the Public Accounts

:42:23. > :42:24.Committee heard from head teachers who are desperately trying to keep

:42:25. > :42:27.providing an excellent education system, in the face of funding cuts.

:42:28. > :42:29.I hope the Secretary of State heard Kate Davis, head teacher of Darton

:42:30. > :42:32.college in Barnsley for example. She said that the result of the funding

:42:33. > :42:34.cut, "We have reduced the curriculum offer, cut out the whole of the

:42:35. > :42:37.community team, we have reduced staffing and the leadership team." I

:42:38. > :42:39.am sure the Secretary of State heard only this morning, that Tim Garside

:42:40. > :42:42.the head teacher of alTring ham grammar school for boys said the

:42:43. > :42:48.cuts in his school, they are facing, are so severe that he only had three

:42:49. > :42:54.options left. To reduce the curriculum, to increase class sizes,

:42:55. > :42:58.or to ask parents to make cash contribution to keep the school

:42:59. > :43:04.running. So what is the Secretary of State's plan? Does she want schools

:43:05. > :43:12.to cut subjects, increase class sizes or make parents foot the bill?

:43:13. > :43:16.Is she not concerned that school risk discriminating against low

:43:17. > :43:20.income family, and schools in lower income areas? And we have heard

:43:21. > :43:25.similar, not just from representatives of teachers but

:43:26. > :43:28.unions like Unison and GMB who represent teaching assistants, if

:43:29. > :43:36.she thinks they are soft targets for cuts let me tell her she is much

:43:37. > :43:39.mistaken. The evidence from the educational Darwin foundation shows

:43:40. > :43:44.National Union of Teachersing assistant make an important impact

:43:45. > :43:49.on literacy and numeracy and those previously struggling. The very

:43:50. > :43:53.pupils that the Government said needed extra support if we were to

:43:54. > :44:01.raise our schools and productivity only earlier this week. Since the

:44:02. > :44:03.Government established the staff negotiating body, teaching

:44:04. > :44:10.assistant's pay has declined so far many are on the minimum wage, there

:44:11. > :44:15.are no more cuts to be made on pay. Any further cuts will hit teaching

:44:16. > :44:21.staff directly. Thank you. I have got a big

:44:22. > :44:26.secondary school in my constituency that has 67% of kids with pupil

:44:27. > :44:32.premium, that believes they will lose ?300,000. Does my friend

:44:33. > :44:37.believe that that action lives up to the rhetoric of our current Prime

:44:38. > :44:42.Minister? I absolutely agree with my honourable friend. I am sure the

:44:43. > :44:46.reason why this debate has been oversubscribed as because many

:44:47. > :44:50.honourable members have realised this national funding formula and

:44:51. > :44:54.the cuts are taking them over the edge and billing a crisis within our

:44:55. > :44:59.schools system. But her party's promise was not to spend more on

:45:00. > :45:03.school, it was to spend more on each pupil in real terms. Yet her

:45:04. > :45:09.Government will cut per pupil spending.

:45:10. > :45:19.Under Labour government education increased by 4.7% per year. The fact

:45:20. > :45:22.of the matter is quite simple, the Secretary of State and her party

:45:23. > :45:26.entered government on a manifesto that pledge to protect per-pupil

:45:27. > :45:44.funding. That promise is being broken. Over the last two years I

:45:45. > :45:51.have noticed the opposition seems to have an awful lot of money to spend.

:45:52. > :46:11.But in terms of more money, which is busy what she is suggesting, does

:46:12. > :46:19.she accept the IFF 's analysis of her manifesto commitments and hours

:46:20. > :46:24.that say they are effectively the two figures, the investment in

:46:25. > :46:26.education came to exactly the same figure? Does she accept that? I

:46:27. > :46:28.would say to the honourable member that the difference between the

:46:29. > :46:30.Labour manifesto and the Conservative manifesto is when

:46:31. > :46:33.Labour was in power in 1997, in 2001, in 2005, our manifesto promise

:46:34. > :46:35.that we pledge to increase spending on education. We delivered on it. It

:46:36. > :46:37.is the Conservative government that is not delivering on their promises,

:46:38. > :46:40.and they should hold them to account. Instead of proper funding

:46:41. > :46:42.in our schools and investment in our future we have seen years of

:46:43. > :46:44.regressive tax giveaways to the wealthiest another prime and Stan

:46:45. > :46:46.the Chancellor have threatened to turn Britain an offshore tax haven

:46:47. > :46:49.for billionaires, a bargain basement economy that loses billions of

:46:50. > :46:52.pounds in tax revenues each and every year. The government are faced

:46:53. > :46:57.with choices, Madam Deputy Speaker, and time and time again they make

:46:58. > :47:03.the wrong decision. I know that every member on all sides of the

:47:04. > :47:06.house will want every child in their constituency and in our country to

:47:07. > :47:10.get the best possible start in life, but if the government does not

:47:11. > :47:16.change its course, that will simply not be possible. So today is a

:47:17. > :47:22.chance for the secretary of state to tell us if she will keep her pledge

:47:23. > :47:26.and commit to provide the real term increase in school budgets that was

:47:27. > :47:31.promised. If she will not, then I call on all members of the house to

:47:32. > :47:36.send a clear message today that we will accept nothing but the best

:47:37. > :47:45.possible start in life for our country. I call the Secretary of

:47:46. > :47:52.State to remove the moment in the name of the Prime Minister. I beg to

:47:53. > :47:56.move the amendment. Members on all sides of this house can agree that

:47:57. > :48:00.we want to deliver a world-class education system that gives every

:48:01. > :48:03.young person the chance to make the most of their talents, no matter

:48:04. > :48:07.what their background or where they come from. Indeed that is the true

:48:08. > :48:12.value of an excellent education, it can open up opportunity and support

:48:13. > :48:15.young people to reach their true potential, certainly for me

:48:16. > :48:24.education was the route to having a much better life than my Terence

:48:25. > :48:29.have had. Our record in government speaks for itself in stock we have

:48:30. > :48:35.seen 1.8 million more children now in good or outstanding schools than

:48:36. > :48:40.they're worth in 2010, and indeed we are keeping our promise by

:48:41. > :48:45.protecting the core schools budget in real terms over the course of

:48:46. > :48:47.this Parliament. The Shadow Secretary of State talk about what

:48:48. > :48:51.parents want to see in schools, and what they don't want to is what the

:48:52. > :48:57.last Labour government record left them with, which was children

:48:58. > :49:04.leaving schools without literacy and you receive a need to succeed.

:49:05. > :49:07.Schroeder and leaving schools thinking they have strong grades

:49:08. > :49:12.were in fact what they were seeing was grade inflation. We have

:49:13. > :49:16.steadily sought to change that and to improve our education system, and

:49:17. > :49:19.for many young people we are now seeing them leaving our education

:49:20. > :49:26.system with a much better place to be successful in their future life.

:49:27. > :49:29.I will take one intervention. The right honourable lady will be aware

:49:30. > :49:32.that the Public Accounts Committee of what I am a member heard from the

:49:33. > :49:36.permanent Secretary Jonathan Slater on Monday in relation to the NAL

:49:37. > :49:39.report my honourable friend referred to. In that report, it does

:49:40. > :49:43.acknowledge what the right honourable lady has said that there

:49:44. > :49:47.is a real increase in the overall budget, but because there is a

:49:48. > :49:51.larger number of pupils than was envisaged, there would be an 8%

:49:52. > :49:55.reduction per pupil in funding. Do she agree with the NAL report and

:49:56. > :50:02.the acknowledgement of the permanent Secretary to that effect -- NAO

:50:03. > :50:06.report. It makes very clear there are cost pressures, I will come into

:50:07. > :50:10.that late in my opening speech, but it also makes clear there are

:50:11. > :50:18.significant scopes for efficiency in our school system as well. Although

:50:19. > :50:23.we are raising standards, nearly nine out of ten schools are rated

:50:24. > :50:26.good or outstanding. For many young people our education system is done

:50:27. > :50:35.at achieving the standards it needs to. I welcome her decision that we

:50:36. > :50:38.need fair funding. Does she agree that those schools in areas like my

:50:39. > :50:41.own that were at the bottom of the pile under the previous government

:50:42. > :50:48.was like formula need quite a step up under the next few years, because

:50:49. > :50:51.they were very badly done by? I do agree and we want to see every child

:50:52. > :50:54.at the same chance to do as well as they possibly can, no matter where

:50:55. > :50:58.they are growing up in our country or where they are starting from

:50:59. > :51:04.academically. And that is why we have to make sure that resources

:51:05. > :51:07.going into the system reflect the high ambitions we have got for every

:51:08. > :51:11.child wherever they are growing up and distributed as well to that

:51:12. > :51:16.effect. Because of this government's economic policy that has seen jobs

:51:17. > :51:20.and growth and careful management of public finances, that is how we have

:51:21. > :51:23.been able to protect the core schools budget in real terms over

:51:24. > :51:28.the course of this Parliament, and in fact the investment is the

:51:29. > :51:37.largest ever on record, totalling over 40%. David Cameron's promise

:51:38. > :51:41.was that the funding per pupil would be protected. That isn't being, as

:51:42. > :51:45.we have heard, and in my constituency because of the formula

:51:46. > :51:51.is being reduced further per pupil. Why is David Cameron's promise being

:51:52. > :51:56.broken? It's not, we are protecting also the per-pupil funding as well,

:51:57. > :52:02.and we know that in relation to making sure funding is fairly

:52:03. > :52:06.apportioned between schools, it is time that we look at the school

:52:07. > :52:09.funding formula to make sure we bring money in that is rectifying

:52:10. > :52:19.the current system that is unfair and out dated. At the moment all

:52:20. > :52:23.schools face funding that is not disputed evenly across the country

:52:24. > :52:28.and it does not take into account pupil needs. A school in Sutton will

:52:29. > :52:35.receive ?75 in extra funding for each pupil with English as a second

:52:36. > :52:40.language, but in Tower Hamlets that figure is ?3548. We know a primary

:52:41. > :52:46.school pupil eligible for free school meals and with English as an

:52:47. > :52:52.additional language attracts ?4902 in a Sussex, but just on the road in

:52:53. > :52:56.Brighton and Hove, it would attract more. We know that a secondary

:52:57. > :53:06.school class of 30 children with no additional needs facts ?112, ?100 of

:53:07. > :53:12.funding in Staffordshire. But ?122,000 in Stoke-on-Trent, a

:53:13. > :53:18.difference of ?10,400 for one class. So we know that parents and families

:53:19. > :53:22.see this unfairness playing out and it is simply untenable, but I

:53:23. > :53:25.believe, to stand up and say that these historic imbalances and

:53:26. > :53:27.differences in how we are funding our children are ones that we should

:53:28. > :53:43.accept, and I don't think anybody, I it is a consultation, I have

:53:44. > :53:47.extended the consultation period in the sense of it being 14 weeks

:53:48. > :53:52.rather than usual this time of 12 because this is complicated, and it

:53:53. > :53:57.is important that we have a measured proportionate rate around the right

:53:58. > :54:00.way to do the swarming -- funding formula. What is absence from the

:54:01. > :54:06.benches opposite is any alternative suggestions on a better way of doing

:54:07. > :54:12.this. I would be interested to hear the shadow bench wraps up whether

:54:13. > :54:15.they actually any alternative to the national funding formula, or indeed

:54:16. > :54:24.any other education policy for that matter. Can I in for my honourable

:54:25. > :54:27.friend that small primary schools in the countryside in my constituency

:54:28. > :54:31.very much welcome the fact spa city is taken into account now, and they

:54:32. > :54:39.feel they at least have a government that understands the needs of the

:54:40. > :54:40.countryside. He is absolutely right, the formula recognises different

:54:41. > :54:46.schools face different costs in particular. In rural areas

:54:47. > :54:50.especially. So that's positive factor recognises that rural schools

:54:51. > :54:55.often have a higher cost space, and it also sits alongside a lump sum

:54:56. > :55:01.approach built into the formula to make sure schools have the money

:55:02. > :55:06.they need to function effectively, and colleagues in rural seats will

:55:07. > :55:10.recognise that rural schools as a group are gaining 3% in our formula

:55:11. > :55:17.on average will stop in the primary schools in sparse communities they

:55:18. > :55:21.will gain 5.3% on average. How is it contested with a manifesto

:55:22. > :55:26.commitment to increase per capita spending in schools in Greenwich

:55:27. > :55:30.when secondary schools are facing nearly an average million pounds

:55:31. > :55:37.savings between now and 2019, and primary schools and average of over

:55:38. > :55:42.?200,000 each? 74 out of 77 schools facing those sort of cuts. How is

:55:43. > :55:47.that consistent with what the Conservative Party told parents in

:55:48. > :55:51.my borough before the last election? We said we would protect the core

:55:52. > :55:57.schools budget in real terms. That's exactly what we are doing. In

:55:58. > :55:59.relation to his local community, the change in the funding formula

:56:00. > :56:03.partially reflects that for a very long time we have been using

:56:04. > :56:09.deprivation data that is simply out of date, and it is important that we

:56:10. > :56:14.use up-to-date deprivation factors, and it is important that we

:56:15. > :56:17.recognise for example that across London in 2528% of children in

:56:18. > :56:22.London schools were on free school meals. That percentage has now

:56:23. > :56:26.fallen to 17%. It is right that we make sure that we have a consistent

:56:27. > :56:31.amount of investment in children from deprived communities. We know

:56:32. > :56:36.that is where the attainment gap is opened up but it is also important