02/02/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.and it has its rights quite properly, but I would expect the

:00:00. > :00:08.upper house to respect that will. SPEAKER: I'm grateful to the

:00:09. > :00:12.Secretary of State and two colleagues. We come now to the

:00:13. > :00:16.Select Committee Statement. In a moment the chair of the public

:00:17. > :00:19.administration and Constitutional affairs Select Committee of the

:00:20. > :00:25.House, Mr Bernard Jenkin, will speak on his subject for up to ten minutes

:00:26. > :00:31.during which time no interventions may be taken. At the conclusion of

:00:32. > :00:35.his statement the chair will call members to put questions on the

:00:36. > :00:41.subject of the statement and call Mr Jenkin to respond to these in turn.

:00:42. > :00:49.Members can expect to be called only once. Interventions should be

:00:50. > :00:55.questions and should be brief. The front bench may take part in

:00:56. > :00:56.questioning. I call the chair of the Public Administration and

:00:57. > :01:00.Constitutional Affairs Committee, Mr Bernard Jenkin.

:01:01. > :01:08.I'm very grateful for this opportunity to prevent the House,

:01:09. > :01:14.the seventh report of the session entitled, will the NHS never learn

:01:15. > :01:19.which is a follow-up report to the pHA so reported learning from

:01:20. > :01:24.mistakes on the NHS in England. Over the past decade, written complaints

:01:25. > :01:34.regarding NHS services have doubled from just over 95,000 in 2005-6 to

:01:35. > :01:38.over 198,000 in 2015-16. Investigations into these complaints

:01:39. > :01:43.have frequently failed to identify the root causes of any mistakes that

:01:44. > :01:49.occurred. And even more frustrating, they have failed to prevent the same

:01:50. > :01:54.mistakes being repeated over and over. This is despite multiple

:01:55. > :01:57.reports, both by the Parliamentary and health service and the public

:01:58. > :02:02.administration of Constitutional affairs committee which have

:02:03. > :02:08.highlighted this is a critical issue. In its reports, learning from

:02:09. > :02:15.mistakes, published last year, pHA so highlighted the fear of blame

:02:16. > :02:18.which is pervasive across the NHS, this fear drives defensive

:02:19. > :02:23.responsibilities and inhibits investigations -- PHSO. Which in

:02:24. > :02:28.turn prevents organisations understanding what went wrong and

:02:29. > :02:35.why. It also undermines public trust and competence because the public

:02:36. > :02:40.can see that NHS organisations are failing to learn from mistakes.

:02:41. > :02:44.Which would then drive improvement. The combination of a reluctance on

:02:45. > :02:47.the part of citizens to express their concerns or to make

:02:48. > :02:56.complaints. And a defensiveness on the part of services to address

:02:57. > :02:59.concerns has been described by PHSO herself as a toxic cocktail which is

:03:00. > :03:05.poisoning efforts to deliver excellent public services. Madame

:03:06. > :03:09.Deputy Speaker, to further understand these issues on what more

:03:10. > :03:14.needs to be done to tackle, we recently undertook this enquiry

:03:15. > :03:17.which followed up learning from mistakes on the own reports. The

:03:18. > :03:23.report which was published earlier this week concludes that if the

:03:24. > :03:27.Department of Health is to achieve its policy to turn the NHS incident

:03:28. > :03:30.learning organisation, it must learning organisation, it must

:03:31. > :03:35.integrate its various initiatives to tackle this issue and to come up

:03:36. > :03:41.with a long term coordinated strategy but this strategy must

:03:42. > :03:45.include a clear plan for building up local investigative capability since

:03:46. > :03:50.this is where the vast majority of them take place. We will hold the

:03:51. > :03:55.Secretary of State for Health accountable for delivering this

:03:56. > :04:06.plan. This report also considers the potential impacts which is in the

:04:07. > :04:09.process of being set up. The creation of this originates from the

:04:10. > :04:16.recommendations as the public administration select committee in

:04:17. > :04:22.2015. The Government accepted our recommendation and it is due to be

:04:23. > :04:27.launched in April. It will conduct investigations into the most serious

:04:28. > :04:33.clinical incidents. It is has intended to be a safe space to allow

:04:34. > :04:37.those involved in these incidents to speak openly and frankly about what

:04:38. > :04:41.has happened and in so doing it is hoped that it'll play a crucial role

:04:42. > :04:46.in transforming the expectation and the culture in the NHS, from one

:04:47. > :04:54.focused on blame T1 emphasised on learning. It should be a key part,

:04:55. > :04:58.albeit a part in the wider strategy of what we want the Government to

:04:59. > :05:03.adopt. Unfortunately there is a long way to go to the Department of I am

:05:04. > :05:10.Willett health's aim is to be achieved. Most importantly it is

:05:11. > :05:16.being asked to begin operations without the necessary preferences to

:05:17. > :05:21.ensure the safe space for investigations is indeed say. This

:05:22. > :05:28.undermines the whole purpose and it is essential that the Government

:05:29. > :05:36.brings forward the necessary legislation as soon as possible. To

:05:37. > :05:40.ensure that the learning leads to an improvement in standards, PACAC also

:05:41. > :05:48.reiterate its previous recommendations, one made in our

:05:49. > :05:53.report PHSO which we published in 2016 but the Government should

:05:54. > :05:57.stipulate in the legislation, one, that it has the responsibility to

:05:58. > :06:02.set the national standards by which all clinical investigations are

:06:03. > :06:04.conducted. Tuque, local NHS providers are responsible for

:06:05. > :06:11.implementing the standards according to the serious incident framework

:06:12. > :06:15.and three, that the Care Quality Commission should continue to be

:06:16. > :06:17.responsible as the regulator in assessing the quality of clinical

:06:18. > :06:25.investigations according to the standards at local level. The

:06:26. > :06:31.purpose of complaints is not just the redress of grievances, which I

:06:32. > :06:36.have to say in the NHS is extremely unsatisfactory anyway. Although this

:06:37. > :06:42.is clearly important, complaints are a tool by which public services can

:06:43. > :06:46.learn and improve. When medical professionals are forced to be

:06:47. > :06:49.concerned with avoiding liability and responsibility and are trapped

:06:50. > :06:53.in a culture of blame, there can be no learning, there is an acute need

:06:54. > :06:57.for government to follow through on this commitment to promote a culture

:06:58. > :07:02.in which the staff feel able to speak out in which the emphasis is

:07:03. > :07:16.placed upon learning and not blame. I very much hope it will implement's

:07:17. > :07:22.recommendations as soon as possible. Doctor Angie junior ricin. Can I

:07:23. > :07:28.congratulate my friend with his work and that of the committee to

:07:29. > :07:33.producers, he is absolutely right. The need to underpin the problem.

:07:34. > :07:38.The Government has said it would cap litigation fees, costs at ?100,000

:07:39. > :07:41.and I think he would accept that there will always be litigation even

:07:42. > :07:45.if we get a more satisfactory means of addressing grievance in them than

:07:46. > :07:53.the way he suggested, does he think that is an appropriate thing, since

:07:54. > :08:01.motor costs for example are capped and does it mean people who have

:08:02. > :08:07.grievances would would not be? I confess I am not scientific cap

:08:08. > :08:10.litigation costs but people resort to litigation because they feel

:08:11. > :08:14.their complaints are not being heard and that the problems they have

:08:15. > :08:17.identified in the service not being addressed. People resort to

:08:18. > :08:25.litigation because they feel they are not being told the truth. Most

:08:26. > :08:28.who complain, we know this, they come in and say I only want to make

:08:29. > :08:35.sure this doesn't happen to anybody else. I don't want compensation but

:08:36. > :08:40.people, because this public spirited attitude towards complaining is so

:08:41. > :08:43.often rebuffed in the health service, people resort to litigation

:08:44. > :08:48.because they feel there is a cover-up. In other fields like

:08:49. > :08:55.aviation, and Marine where we have this investigative process

:08:56. > :08:58.re-established, designed to find accident causes without blame, there

:08:59. > :09:03.is litigation at the outset that doesn't preclude it in the final

:09:04. > :09:10.analysis. But discovering the truth without blame is the first step

:09:11. > :09:19.towards reconciliation. Thank you Madam Deputy chair. I greatly

:09:20. > :09:22.welcome this report. As to my constituents, that might seem

:09:23. > :09:31.surprising because my constituency is in Wales. But all of my

:09:32. > :09:34.constituents want specialist and elective care hospitals in England

:09:35. > :09:38.so it is important for the people of Wales as it is the people in England

:09:39. > :09:45.and I've been involved in many complaints myself. Does the chair of

:09:46. > :09:50.the committee acknowledge that a position of Welsh constituents is

:09:51. > :09:54.key because while they are in another administration as far as

:09:55. > :10:00.health is concerned, they actually depend on hospitals in England for

:10:01. > :10:06.treatment? I am most grateful to my Welsh honourable friend for his

:10:07. > :10:10.question because it gives me an opportunity to highlight not only my

:10:11. > :10:16.agreement with the point he makes but of course this is not just about

:10:17. > :10:23.health care safety investigations in England, the Government has embarked

:10:24. > :10:31.by setting up this aren't a very major and significant reform which I

:10:32. > :10:35.can ensure my friend is being watched all over the world,

:10:36. > :10:39.different countries in different jurisdictions have tried various

:10:40. > :10:44.bodies to deal with this question, I don't think any country before

:10:45. > :10:56.England has embarked on reform the scale and nature. And I very much

:10:57. > :11:01.hope Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will set up their own

:11:02. > :11:12.equivalent or indeed when employed this is the pinnacle of their

:11:13. > :11:17.investigation systems as well. With the chairmen agree that each of us

:11:18. > :11:22.receives many more golden letters in the health service and they do

:11:23. > :11:25.complaints but when there are complaints or questions, that

:11:26. > :11:30.openness and responsiveness matters the most, and this would be the

:11:31. > :11:34.pinnacle of the hardest cases where it ought to be resolved locally by

:11:35. > :11:38.hospitals? I certainly agree that the vast majority of the

:11:39. > :11:49.constituents who experience the care of hospitals were GP practices are

:11:50. > :11:52.extremely grateful that I don't think we know how corrosive the

:11:53. > :11:58.blame culture has been in the health system and the whole mid

:11:59. > :12:01.Staffordshire crisis, other crisis like the Morecambe Bay, the

:12:02. > :12:07.maternity unit crisis, all of these arise from the defensive culture

:12:08. > :12:14.that exist in the NHS and if we're going to change this into a much

:12:15. > :12:18.more open declarative system then we need this to set the tone throughout

:12:19. > :12:23.the entire organisation and it is not just about dealing with a few

:12:24. > :12:28.complaints, it is about setting a whole new standard for a whole new

:12:29. > :12:31.profession about how complaints and clinical incidents I investigated

:12:32. > :12:38.and I am most grateful to have this opportunity to prevent this report.

:12:39. > :12:43.We welcome this constructive reporter would like to thank all of

:12:44. > :12:49.those who were involved in producing it, it highlights worrying

:12:50. > :12:57.statistics, the most recent NHS staff survey found 40% of staff

:12:58. > :13:01.committing errors and from the contribution this morning there is a

:13:02. > :13:04.long way to go before we eradicate the culture of defensiveness

:13:05. > :13:14.described. In order to give them the strongest start, it was the clear

:13:15. > :13:18.view that legislation is needed. As of date no legislation is

:13:19. > :13:21.forthcoming so given this with the chair of the committee agree it

:13:22. > :13:26.might be better to delay implementation to allow for this? I

:13:27. > :13:30.am most grateful for his question and for his support and for my

:13:31. > :13:40.committee to him I am extremely grateful to work on this. I hesitate

:13:41. > :13:49.to lose the progress we have made, we approved the appointment of the

:13:50. > :13:55.chief investigator of HC who is himself 25 years chief investigator

:13:56. > :13:59.of the air accident investigations Branch of the Department for

:14:00. > :14:03.Transport, he brings with him the wealth of experience and perspective

:14:04. > :14:08.about how this organisation should work. I think the answer is is to

:14:09. > :14:19.bring forward legislation as quickly as possible. Thank you Madam Deputy

:14:20. > :14:31.Speaker, I would like to add my thanks to those honourable gentleman

:14:32. > :14:34.for the considered report which she has described the simply to the

:14:35. > :14:39.House this afternoon on what more needs to be done systematically to

:14:40. > :14:44.transform the way the NHS plans from errors to improve patient safety. We

:14:45. > :14:48.support the main thrust of the recommendations and will offer a

:14:49. > :14:52.detailed response to the report in due course. This is right at the top

:14:53. > :14:56.of our agenda which we share with the committee to change this culture

:14:57. > :15:01.within the NHS of which he has spoken so eloquently about today. We

:15:02. > :15:05.are committed to making our hospitals and GP surgeries the

:15:06. > :15:09.safest in the world, supported by the NHS as the largest learning

:15:10. > :15:13.organisation. The only way we can achieve this is through learning and

:15:14. > :15:20.not a blame culture characterised by openness honesty and candour.

:15:21. > :15:21.Listening to patients and their families, finding and facing the

:15:22. > :15:36.truth and learning from errors. As my Right Honourable friend

:15:37. > :15:40.indicated the government has accepted PACAC's conclusions force

:15:41. > :15:45.of the investigation Branch will be up and running from April. I welcome

:15:46. > :15:48.the appointment of the former chief inspector of the accident

:15:49. > :15:51.investigations Branch who has a strong track record of delivering

:15:52. > :16:00.high-quality investigations in aviation. The committee has again

:16:01. > :16:04.called for it to be statutorily independent and we agree it should

:16:05. > :16:08.be as independent as possible to discharge its functions fully and

:16:09. > :16:12.effectively and we would not rule out the option of legislation. Is

:16:13. > :16:17.committee has also raised in this week's reports various suggestions

:16:18. > :16:21.for the potential role in setting standards and we will respond to

:16:22. > :16:24.that formerly in due course. We are committed to ensuring the NHS

:16:25. > :16:29.becomes an organisation that learns from mistakes. The Care Quality

:16:30. > :16:33.Commission's report learning, accountability and candour from

:16:34. > :16:38.April this year, all NHS trusts will be required to publish how many

:16:39. > :16:46.deaths they could have avoided had the care being better along with

:16:47. > :16:50.lessons learned. Before posing my question, I'd like to thank the

:16:51. > :16:54.committee for its response to the Government's recent consultation

:16:55. > :16:59.providing a safe space for health care safety investigations and we

:17:00. > :17:01.will respond to that shortly. Improvements in safety, incident

:17:02. > :17:06.handling and learning in the NHS will not happen overnight but does

:17:07. > :17:08.my honourable friend agree that the shared programme of work

:17:09. > :17:15.demonstrates a commitment across the care system to improve the way all

:17:16. > :17:17.serious patient safety incidents are viewed and treated and is this the

:17:18. > :17:24.crucial foundation for lasting change? I am most grateful for the

:17:25. > :17:29.Minister's question and get it at the dispatch box today with his

:17:30. > :17:32.opposite number from Her Majesty's official opposition because I know

:17:33. > :17:36.his presence underlies the commitment of the Secretary of State

:17:37. > :17:42.to this programme of change. I very much welcome the shared programme of

:17:43. > :17:47.work to which he refers. But we found in taking evidence for this

:17:48. > :17:51.particular report there was some dislocation between the various

:17:52. > :17:56.bodies involved in this work and we conclude that it is ministers, and

:17:57. > :17:59.only the minister, and indeed probably only the Secretary of State

:18:00. > :18:03.that can actually draw this together to ensure there is a coherent

:18:04. > :18:07.strategy and plan, which is what we emphasise very much in this report.

:18:08. > :18:13.Finally, he refers to the legislation in passing. I hope a

:18:14. > :18:20.valiant effort is being made in order to, I hope, perhaps even

:18:21. > :18:28.include something in Her Majesty's royal address later this year. I do

:18:29. > :18:32.point out that it's not just about statutorily underpinning the

:18:33. > :18:38.independence but the safe space to which he refers and thanks the

:18:39. > :18:41.committee for its consultation, contribution and consultation on the

:18:42. > :18:45.scum of the safe space has to be legislated for without legislation

:18:46. > :18:51.there is no safe space. The marine accident investigation Branch for

:18:52. > :18:56.the AAIV or equivalent bodies couldn't function unless they could

:18:57. > :19:00.provide people with protection so that they can come and talk kind of

:19:01. > :19:04.off the record about what has happened and openly. That has

:19:05. > :19:07.transformed safety culture in other areas and that is the transformation

:19:08. > :19:13.we need in the health service. I leave with him would legislation

:19:14. > :19:15.echoing in his ears, if I make and very much look forward to making

:19:16. > :19:25.further progress with him on these matters. Most grateful, Madam Deputy

:19:26. > :19:28.Speaker. The House is grateful for the chair of the committee for

:19:29. > :19:33.bringing his report and answering questions. We now come to the

:19:34. > :19:44.backbench motion on the Armed Forces Covenant report 2016. Mrs Anne-Marie

:19:45. > :19:49.Trevelyan to move. I beg to move this House considers this covenant

:19:50. > :19:52.report 2016. It is a great privilege to be able to lead this debate today

:19:53. > :19:54.at my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee for granting us

:19:55. > :19:57.the time and opportunity to discuss this most important of national

:19:58. > :20:01.issues in the chamber today for so as the world in which we find

:20:02. > :20:05.ourselves at present is unsettled and tumultuous, more than ever we

:20:06. > :20:08.must be mindful there are some 150,000 men and women who stand

:20:09. > :20:11.ready to defend our nation and take on military challenges with our

:20:12. > :20:15.allies around the world to help maintain peace, safe seas and safe

:20:16. > :20:20.skies. And standing firmly behind them their families, silent spouses

:20:21. > :20:25.and children, parents and siblings who given the strength to take on

:20:26. > :20:27.whatever challenges we ask of them. Our Armed Forces personnel, their

:20:28. > :20:33.families and our veterans are all citizens and they deserve a voice. I

:20:34. > :20:40.have an RAF base and largest army training area in my constituency and

:20:41. > :20:44.I'm deeply mindful of the role of MPs in sending troops to war when

:20:45. > :20:48.required. As a new mph struck me that we needed to do more here in

:20:49. > :20:54.this House to talk about the Armed Forces Covenant, more to understand

:20:55. > :20:58.what it means in practical terms and help grow the nation's commitment to

:20:59. > :21:02.our Armed Forces Covenant. I'm pleased we are able to discuss the

:21:03. > :21:07.2016 report and the covenant's impact for those it affects. What I

:21:08. > :21:10.have not expected, Madam Deputy Speaker, was in putting myself

:21:11. > :21:15.forward as an advocate for the covenant and finding ways to spread

:21:16. > :21:18.the world, that military families feeling disenfranchised and unable

:21:19. > :21:22.to raise issues of concern by virtue of their service gave me the honour

:21:23. > :21:26.of contacting me to talk about their problems with schools admissions,

:21:27. > :21:29.housing maintenance and other issues from car leasing contract problems

:21:30. > :21:32.when deployed at short notice, to the challenge of spousal employment

:21:33. > :21:37.or lack of support for mental health, or physical challenges which

:21:38. > :21:41.must service has left them with. Big and small problems adding great

:21:42. > :21:43.pressures to the lives of service personnel and veterans, creating

:21:44. > :21:46.disadvantage which would not happen if they were civilians, and making

:21:47. > :21:51.them question whether to stay or leave. What shocked me, Madam Deputy

:21:52. > :21:55.Speaker, and what I have not identified before was that sense of

:21:56. > :21:58.this empowerment many of our military families too often feel.

:21:59. > :22:03.Most importantly, that they feel unable to talk to their MP about

:22:04. > :22:06.welfare issues in the way that civilian constituents do all the

:22:07. > :22:10.time. So the first issue I would like to raise with the Minister,

:22:11. > :22:14.perhaps the first item in next year's report as a successful change

:22:15. > :22:18.to help our military families, is the question of changing the defence

:22:19. > :22:20.infrastructure notice which sets out the rules and regulations on when

:22:21. > :22:28.serving personnel can or cannot talk to their MP. In my Public Accounts

:22:29. > :22:31.Committee hearing last summer a Lieutenant gave a verbal indication

:22:32. > :22:35.it was fine for personnel and their families to talk to their MP about

:22:36. > :22:38.any non-military matters of concern. This was great news and we have

:22:39. > :22:42.taken that as an active commitment to the covenant vision of helping to

:22:43. > :22:46.reduce disadvantage for military families. The reality is not quite

:22:47. > :22:52.so clear. Because the note is still does not reflect this sentiment. So

:22:53. > :22:55.I would ask the Minister to look again at this which affects all

:22:56. > :23:00.military employees military and civilian. The hierarchical command

:23:01. > :23:04.based rules. I will give way. I don't intend to respond to all

:23:05. > :23:08.questions as I go on, as the debate goes on, but I think this is of

:23:09. > :23:13.significant importance so I wish to make it absolutely clear that any

:23:14. > :23:15.member of the service family who wishes to approach their member of

:23:16. > :23:26.Parliament can do so as any civilian would, and if the change is required

:23:27. > :23:30.I'm happy to commit to doing it. I thank the Minister very much for his

:23:31. > :23:35.intervention and I hope we can look at that in detail. The hierarchical

:23:36. > :23:38.command based rules needed for military discipline in war should

:23:39. > :23:42.never create a barrier to military personnel and their families feeling

:23:43. > :23:45.free to raise concerns about issues which affect them day-to-day.

:23:46. > :23:49.Bennite related family housing matters which come under the MOD's

:23:50. > :23:52.oversight or school ones which come under the purview of education, or

:23:53. > :23:59.health matters which come under the Department of Health's purview. You

:24:00. > :24:03.make a powerful point, although the point that puzzles me, my 20 years

:24:04. > :24:07.in one of the most military constituencies in Britain I service

:24:08. > :24:10.people day in and day out in my surgery dealing with all kinds of

:24:11. > :24:14.issues on their behalf and never has there been any restriction on them

:24:15. > :24:19.speaking to me. That is very encouraging, but the reality of the

:24:20. > :24:22.postbag I have received in the next 18 months, not only locally but from

:24:23. > :24:25.service personnel across the country through the covenant work we're

:24:26. > :24:30.doing has been that there is often a of real anxiety about stepping

:24:31. > :24:36.forward, and sometimes when wives have there has been repercussion in

:24:37. > :24:40.terms of their husbands being challenged to have stuck through the

:24:41. > :24:46.chain of command rather than step outside it into the civilian arena,

:24:47. > :24:49.that is to say their MP's office. So, I hope very much that the

:24:50. > :24:54.experience of my honourable friend can be something we can encourage

:24:55. > :25:01.other soldiers and their families to do. I must commend her for securing

:25:02. > :25:04.this debate, she is making a powerful contribution. It is not

:25:05. > :25:09.just a case of those currently serving but those who have served.

:25:10. > :25:13.Lately in my surgery, and McCue, came to mean difficult circumstances

:25:14. > :25:17.because she was denied a war widow's pension because she remarried. We

:25:18. > :25:21.know those still in receipt, or have remarried after 2015 have been

:25:22. > :25:24.protected, but will she agree with me that the Minister should again

:25:25. > :25:28.that those who were married to servicemen, in her case married to a

:25:29. > :25:31.serviceman who lost his life in 1973, it is only right and proper

:25:32. > :25:36.that we look at restoring the pension rights we should have? I

:25:37. > :25:40.thank the honourable gentleman for his point. It is interesting and I

:25:41. > :25:43.will leave that with the Minister to consider. The question of war

:25:44. > :25:49.pensions is one that, again, if there is real hardship caused Winnie

:25:50. > :25:52.to be continually mindful of. The covenant is there to support not

:25:53. > :25:56.only young men and women coming back from recent wars but those who have

:25:57. > :26:01.supported and those who have served over the many decades that we have

:26:02. > :26:08.seen go before us. We will that with the Minister's list. The Minister is

:26:09. > :26:10.going to answer that question. I am very grateful for the honourable

:26:11. > :26:15.gentleman raising the point. It has been raised on a number of is. I am

:26:16. > :26:19.very pleased that in principle the government recognised this be when

:26:20. > :26:24.it made its correction back in 2015, I think. We're looking very

:26:25. > :26:27.carefully at this issue. Honourable members will accept there are,

:26:28. > :26:30.however, questions over retrospection which we do need to

:26:31. > :26:34.look at very carefully because of the principle it may set but I wish

:26:35. > :26:37.to reassure the House, as I have done, to some individual members

:26:38. > :26:43.before, this matter is currently being looked at. Thank you, Madam

:26:44. > :26:46.Deputy Speaker. I'd like to take the opportunity to commend the Minister

:26:47. > :26:49.and his devoted team of civil servants in the MOD working

:26:50. > :26:54.tirelessly to build on the original direction set out in the Armed

:26:55. > :26:57.Forces act of 2011 on the covenant. The act calls on the Secretary of

:26:58. > :27:00.State for Defence to publish this annual report setting out what has

:27:01. > :27:03.been done in the last year to help reduce disadvantage for service

:27:04. > :27:07.families and veterans, not only the work done in the MOD itself but also

:27:08. > :27:12.other government departments and the wider business and community

:27:13. > :27:14.networks across our nation. This year's report highlights some of the

:27:15. > :27:18.great work done during 2016 in a number of areas, including to build

:27:19. > :27:20.up the corporate covenant and encourage more private-sector

:27:21. > :27:23.visitors to get involved in the practicalities of what being a

:27:24. > :27:30.corporate cabinet secretary means. To improve regional representation,

:27:31. > :27:32.especially to the community covenant, to improve on

:27:33. > :27:36.communicating but the covenant is and what it does and who it

:27:37. > :27:39.supports. And most critically, to continue to prioritise issues which

:27:40. > :27:43.are known to be creating disadvantage for service families

:27:44. > :27:46.and veterans. I would like to take a few minutes, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:27:47. > :27:51.to look at each of the areas in the report. Firstly, the corporate

:27:52. > :27:54.covenant. The team in the MOD whose focus is building up a number of

:27:55. > :27:57.businesses and organisations who sign up to the corporate covenant

:27:58. > :28:01.have been working hard as ever and I believe we now have over 1300

:28:02. > :28:03.businesses signed up to make their organisations more military

:28:04. > :28:08.friendly, more understanding and to be able to benefit from the great

:28:09. > :28:16.skill sets which service leavers and reservists can bring to businesses.

:28:17. > :28:19.Last year our Armed Forces covenant asked what these organisations were

:28:20. > :28:24.doing as part of their commitment, from the big boys like BT, Google,

:28:25. > :28:27.Hewlett-Packard, to small companies in Merthyr Tydfil, those who have

:28:28. > :28:33.signed by changing the way they do business and seeking out staff to

:28:34. > :28:36.support the covenant concept. I mention the company in Merthyr

:28:37. > :28:42.Tydfil because their reply was my favourite, a decorating and building

:28:43. > :28:45.refurbishment company, they decided they would ask the whole supply

:28:46. > :28:48.chain to sign up to the covenant. They drafted a covenant on behalf of

:28:49. > :28:52.each supplier encouraging them to sign up to the bronze employee

:28:53. > :28:56.recognition scheme, the first ladder on the scheme, and formally ask them

:28:57. > :28:59.to commit to provide one week's work placement towards the Armed Forces

:29:00. > :29:03.employed witty pathway scheme. In this way they were able to create

:29:04. > :29:07.with their suppliers a much greater number of work placements in that

:29:08. > :29:13.part of Wales. Just imagine if every large business which had signed up

:29:14. > :29:19.to the corporate covenant drove a commitment through their supply

:29:20. > :29:24.chain, the impact we could have. Would you also agree it is small and

:29:25. > :29:26.medium businesses who have signed up to the corporate covenant who can

:29:27. > :29:31.also play a major part in other parts of the United Kingdom? I thank

:29:32. > :29:36.my honourable friend. I am keen that MPs from across the House become

:29:37. > :29:39.more involved and spread the message about the benefits of businesses

:29:40. > :29:43.signing the corporate covenant in their own constituencies. We are

:29:44. > :29:46.perhaps more connected as MPs to the local business community than anyone

:29:47. > :29:49.and we have a great opportunity to evangelise about the importance and

:29:50. > :29:53.life changing impact for military families and businesses committing

:29:54. > :29:57.to the covenant. We have over 5 million SMEs, businesses employing

:29:58. > :30:01.less than 250 people, making up 99% of the businesses across the UK, so

:30:02. > :30:09.we have a long way to go to make every business covenant friendly, we

:30:10. > :30:12.have 1300 signed up so far committed in their small or large way to

:30:13. > :30:14.supporting our military families. We look forward to working with the MOD

:30:15. > :30:17.to increase participation in the corporate covenant scheme

:30:18. > :30:20.exponentially in the year ahead. A key area in which businesses can

:30:21. > :30:24.benefit themselves and help service families is in looking to employ

:30:25. > :30:28.military spouses. It has been a long-standing challenge for military

:30:29. > :30:30.spouses to find employment which matches their skills and

:30:31. > :30:34.qualifications because too often employers see a military address and

:30:35. > :30:38.decide a potential employee, even though often the best candidate,

:30:39. > :30:41.will not be around for more than two years. A committed military spouse

:30:42. > :30:45.could certainly have a two-year posting and more often longer

:30:46. > :30:48.nowadays and should be as valued as any civilian candidate. In my

:30:49. > :30:52.conversations with military wives the key block to getting the right

:30:53. > :30:56.job is often when an employer sees the applicant's address as a

:30:57. > :31:00.military base. I would ask the minister today if you would consider

:31:01. > :31:04.working with me and his colleagues to change the conduct of job

:31:05. > :31:07.application forms to remove the address requirement, perhaps in

:31:08. > :31:10.favour of the distance from work or some such criteria which ensured no

:31:11. > :31:16.unconscious bias against military spouses. Work ongoing at Stanford

:31:17. > :31:20.University is showing gender neutral applications onto employer choices,

:31:21. > :31:23.removing a marked bias towards the male applicants. In the same way it

:31:24. > :31:28.would be fantastic as part of our continuing real commitment to the

:31:29. > :31:32.covenant to lead a trial on removing addresses from job applications to

:31:33. > :31:32.see if this can help increase successful employment opportunities

:31:33. > :31:40.for military spouses. Turning to the community covenant it

:31:41. > :31:46.is great news that every council in England and Scotland have signed up

:31:47. > :31:54.and colleagues continue to make progress to improve the commitments.

:31:55. > :31:57.It has one of the greatest potential impacts for military family serving

:31:58. > :32:01.and after service because we are dealing with housing allocation

:32:02. > :32:08.policies, briefing GPs about the needs, setting out web pages,

:32:09. > :32:14.supporting local charities and schools admissions policies.

:32:15. > :32:19.Colleagues will no doubt share more details swirled like to raise one

:32:20. > :32:26.key area in relation to this which is schools admissions policy. I

:32:27. > :32:29.called on the Department for Education to change the policy so

:32:30. > :32:33.that military families moving a short placements can get the right

:32:34. > :32:41.school places at any time. I hope the MoD will support this, my

:32:42. > :32:45.postbag led me to bring in my bill because too many families moving at

:32:46. > :32:50.short notice could not access a school place without ending up on

:32:51. > :32:54.the appeal system creating more stress. The excellent work from the

:32:55. > :32:59.University of Winchester shows a marked impact on higher education

:33:00. > :33:04.outputs for military children. We must reduce the stress to help these

:33:05. > :33:10.children to reach their potential. Lastly and a key part of this is to

:33:11. > :33:14.look at the prioritisation of key issues which are creating stresses

:33:15. > :33:18.on serving families in order to reduce the very real retention risk

:33:19. > :33:22.which we are now experiencing. Having brought our Armed Forces

:33:23. > :33:27.numbers down to a leaner peacetime force, this is an urgent challenge.

:33:28. > :33:39.We must always remember that without the human capital, all of the ships,

:33:40. > :33:43.submarines are no use to us. Which makes up our world-class military

:33:44. > :33:48.resources, we train them to the high standards in the world and we must

:33:49. > :33:51.ensure that we do all we can because notwithstanding the moral component

:33:52. > :33:58.but speaking as an accountant, we want to make sure we are getting the

:33:59. > :34:08.best value for money. If we lose a pilot then woo failed to assess the

:34:09. > :34:14.implications... And we are failing to enact the spirit of the covenant

:34:15. > :34:23.in practice. This highlights the brilliance work done, to rebuild a

:34:24. > :34:26.more robust infrastructure, substantial work has taken place to

:34:27. > :34:38.tackle hearing loss issues and this be interesting to see the treatment

:34:39. > :34:42.guidelines which have changed. ... The launch of the e-learning for

:34:43. > :34:45.health care programme to help GPs get greater understanding and

:34:46. > :34:49.awareness will be useful but insuring the transfer of all medical

:34:50. > :34:52.records works across the country will be key to helping GPs knowing

:34:53. > :34:59.their patient's history and work with them when crisis arise. The new

:35:00. > :35:06.Gateway is a great step forward is to help families and local services,

:35:07. > :35:10.we have high hopes for this but there are concerns that gaps in

:35:11. > :35:23.mental health care will provide a stubborn block to give real support.

:35:24. > :35:26.Perhaps the Minister in his closing remarks can give us a little more

:35:27. > :35:30.detail on how the supplies at the other end of the Gateway will be

:35:31. > :35:35.supported by relevant departments so there is capacity to meet the well

:35:36. > :35:38.identified need. The report also talks about developing an

:35:39. > :35:44.alternative approach for service personnel. I would be failing our

:35:45. > :35:50.dutifully did not mention today the crisis in the housing which is a

:35:51. > :35:53.real and present danger to the retention of our highly trained

:35:54. > :35:57.personnel. I have tackled the problem is in a number of forms

:35:58. > :36:02.already, the Minister has been helpful in getting a hotline set up

:36:03. > :36:06.to help us sort out practical problems for families in service

:36:07. > :36:10.family accommodation but the problems are extensive and causing

:36:11. > :36:14.enormous frustrations to too many. I have challenged the Minister and

:36:15. > :36:18.would say here that is not a single family I have spoken to mind is that

:36:19. > :36:25.their rent is going up but it will reflect normal housing rates, their

:36:26. > :36:30.homes really do need to be DH plus. Too many are not and the system has

:36:31. > :36:35.been wasted against families not getting a fair home, there is more

:36:36. > :36:39.to do on this to rebuild the trust loss we are facing. The most

:36:40. > :36:47.challenging part is the future of accommodation model. Aiming at

:36:48. > :36:52.supporting families in the private rental market or enabling them to

:36:53. > :36:55.own their own. I'm grateful for the Minister to publish these and we're

:36:56. > :36:58.looking at them very closely, I would ask him to publish the

:36:59. > :37:01.additional notes that personnel wrote which he said he would do

:37:02. > :37:11.which do not see an the statistical sets online at the moment. I hear

:37:12. > :37:15.what she says about military accommodation and I think that we

:37:16. > :37:20.all genuinely share her concerns but would she agree with me that it is

:37:21. > :37:24.particularly worrying that the report indicates satisfaction has

:37:25. > :37:29.decreased, the satisfaction levels are very low indeed. I thank the

:37:30. > :37:35.honourable gentleman for his comments and I think we should be

:37:36. > :37:38.extremely mindful of the continuing low morale and or services, Royal

:37:39. > :37:45.Marines have the noble exception because they are very busy on a

:37:46. > :37:50.great number of operations. He raises a critical point that we must

:37:51. > :37:54.be mindful of. The key concerns in the debate that as a drive towards

:37:55. > :37:59.universal housing allowance which has been set out in document since

:38:00. > :38:03.2009, this is a smoke screen to bring in this policy anyway, no one

:38:04. > :38:09.disputes the aim to provide good quality access and affordable

:38:10. > :38:17.housing as the offer but he must get it right. Whatever the changes, the

:38:18. > :38:21.reality is that when deployed in small numbers or large and we can

:38:22. > :38:24.never predict the future, our military families need to be looked

:38:25. > :38:28.after in decent and well maintained housing and have a framework of real

:38:29. > :38:32.support around them and their children. If we fail in this we will

:38:33. > :38:35.lose more and more of our personnel at a much earlier stage in their

:38:36. > :38:39.careers to the civilian world. This is not value for money, not good for

:38:40. > :38:42.the capability nor for the morale and corporate memory needed to

:38:43. > :38:50.maintain the unique quality of the Armed Forces. I'm grateful for

:38:51. > :38:55.giving way. She said the surveys are a smoke screen to bring in this

:38:56. > :39:06.policy. I do slightly take offence at that, the purpose of the survey

:39:07. > :39:10.is to have an informed opinion, that survey will form the evidence base

:39:11. > :39:16.as to how we move this forward. Issue suggesting we should not have

:39:17. > :39:21.survey had Armed Forces personnel, it is something I disagree but let

:39:22. > :39:24.me clear no firm decisions have been made and to suggest that we

:39:25. > :39:32.shouldn't have survey is fundamentally wrong. My suggestion

:39:33. > :39:39.is the feeling that is felt amongst military families that there were

:39:40. > :39:45.four questions asked and the existing SFA opportunity was not in

:39:46. > :39:53.there, it was in a separate question to suggest that they've thought SFA

:39:54. > :39:59.was a good thing. The survey had in it the different choices that they

:40:00. > :40:03.might want to do with private rental owning their own home but I reflect

:40:04. > :40:06.the boy still voices which have been shouting at me that there is a deep

:40:07. > :40:16.sense of anxiety and all of the family and federations. As much as I

:40:17. > :40:22.respect my honourable friend on the front bench, reading the questions

:40:23. > :40:27.in the screenshot you can see how they are designed to produced a

:40:28. > :40:34.particular answer. To take one example, the most common reason why

:40:35. > :40:37.people are for change is to live in a better house, it doesn't tell them

:40:38. > :40:41.anywhere that once they are in the private sector then they will be

:40:42. > :40:47.totally responsible for persuading landlords to do something about the

:40:48. > :40:54.maintenance. Not the expensive Australian model where the MOD has

:40:55. > :40:59.kept that responsibility. I thank my honourable friend and he reflects

:41:00. > :41:04.the deep concerns about the way the survey was put together and the

:41:05. > :41:11.framing of those questions leaving a lot of personnel feeling unable to

:41:12. > :41:14.give the answers they wanted to. The ministers mindful of this and I'm

:41:15. > :41:21.glad there are no formal decisions yet. I don't want to get involved in

:41:22. > :41:26.a dispute but would she agree with me that the survey which matters

:41:27. > :41:30.most of all published recently is that on the 19th of January this

:41:31. > :41:40.year, which is the monthly services personnel statistics and their they

:41:41. > :41:44.show otherwise. I thank my honourable friend and that is the

:41:45. > :41:55.reality that I talk continually about. I think the risk is very real

:41:56. > :42:00.and we are suffering from it. The survey talked about choices but no

:42:01. > :42:04.one felt it was a choice the MOD wanted to keep on the table and the

:42:05. > :42:08.Minister and I will continue to discuss this I'm sure but that is

:42:09. > :42:13.the reality of the completed survey. The choice of live where you want is

:42:14. > :42:16.fine as long as it is real to live with your family but the likely

:42:17. > :42:23.reality of an allowance is that the housing costs and too many parts of

:42:24. > :42:26.the country bar too high. It means families spread across the country

:42:27. > :42:32.would be unsupported and we cannot plan for a peaceful world when all

:42:33. > :42:37.of our troops are at home, we are in demand and our recruitment numbers

:42:38. > :42:41.are a challenge. We need to hold up recruits to remain serving once they

:42:42. > :42:51.have families and a key component is getting the housing rights. Choice

:42:52. > :42:54.is a great thing but driving it this way is just not going to work. This

:42:55. > :43:00.annual report shows the continuous work which the team working on to

:43:01. > :43:04.help reduce the disadvantage and it is commendable and there is a great

:43:05. > :43:09.deal to prevent that there is more to do. There is not a single person

:43:10. > :43:16.here who would want to hear the words that this is just too hard and

:43:17. > :43:23.we're going to leave. This attitude survey shows a stopgap between 76%

:43:24. > :43:27.who are proud but 40% to suggest one would join, that is a gap we cannot

:43:28. > :43:31.fix I hope very much that in the year ahead we can focus on actively

:43:32. > :43:37.encouraging service families to talk to MPs when they have problems. So a

:43:38. > :43:40.new dialogue can begin. This is one of the most powerful tools we have

:43:41. > :43:49.two drive-through good decisions and reduce the capability gap which is

:43:50. > :43:56.looming. I fervently hope we can get a dialogue across the House in 2017.

:43:57. > :44:00.The question is this house is considered the Armed Forces

:44:01. > :44:05.covenants report 2016 I apologise for the in audibility but I will

:44:06. > :44:15.attempt my hand signals to explain what I'm trying to say. Thank you

:44:16. > :44:18.Malik Deputy Speaker and it is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:44:19. > :44:27.Member of Berwick-upon-Tweed and I welcome the publication on the

:44:28. > :44:31.military government. -- covenant. On previous occasions I have raised the

:44:32. > :44:34.points on the concerns about the implementation of the covenant in

:44:35. > :44:40.Northern Ireland, the Minister will be aware and can I at this stage

:44:41. > :44:43.commend the Minister that he is totally committed to his work as

:44:44. > :44:48.Minister for veterans dealing with the military covenant and we

:44:49. > :44:57.appreciate the interest he has shown and we look forward to further

:44:58. > :45:01.visits in the near future can I draw the House attention to a letter I

:45:02. > :45:06.received recently in pursuit of the case that I had been dealing with

:45:07. > :45:10.our behalf of a constituent who is a fracture and of our Armed Forces. I

:45:11. > :45:18.had written to the Minister of health in Northern Ireland who is

:45:19. > :45:22.now the leader of Sinn Fein having replaced the former Deputy First

:45:23. > :45:26.Minister Martin McGuinness. In her response and I want to quote from

:45:27. > :45:37.this, the Minister for health says As you are aware the Armed Forces

:45:38. > :45:44.Covenant is not in place here. Ex-military personnel therefore do

:45:45. > :45:49.not have the 13 YJ code, which is the code that identify someone with

:45:50. > :45:54.a history of military service, added to their clinical records for GP

:45:55. > :45:57.referrals. She goes on to say the Armed Forces Covenant has been

:45:58. > :46:02.adopted by England, Scotland and Wales. Note, not Northern Ireland,

:46:03. > :46:23.to provide equal access to health care where it can linked to

:46:24. > :46:31.military service at the I do not include the Minister in this but I

:46:32. > :46:34.have to say there are some associated with the Ministry of

:46:35. > :46:39.Defence are in denial about the problem we face in Northern Ireland.

:46:40. > :46:45.The reality is, Madam Deputy Speaker, that after over 30 years we

:46:46. > :46:51.have literally tens of thousands of veterans living across Northern

:46:52. > :46:54.Ireland. Indeed, I would argue that in our region we probably have a

:46:55. > :46:59.higher proportion of veterans than in most other regions of the United

:47:00. > :47:04.Kingdom. It is worth bearing in mind that many of those veterans served

:47:05. > :47:07.with the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment home

:47:08. > :47:12.service, serving in the communities in which they lived, and with that

:47:13. > :47:18.brought much added pressure for them and their families. To the extent

:47:19. > :47:23.that recent reports have indicated that there is a very high incidence

:47:24. > :47:28.of post-conflict trauma amongst veterans in Northern Ireland.

:47:29. > :47:34.Indeed, the University of Ulster is undertaking a study into this very

:47:35. > :47:39.issue to try and evaluate the level of mental health illness amongst

:47:40. > :47:46.veterans in Northern Ireland. But it is known to be quite high. And quite

:47:47. > :47:50.frankly, we are faced with a problem where those veterans seeking help

:47:51. > :47:57.for their mental illness are being told by the Department of Health,

:47:58. > :48:01.I'm sorry but if you are a veteran in Northern Ireland the Armed Forces

:48:02. > :48:05.Covenant doesn't apply here. So we cannot deal with you on the same

:48:06. > :48:09.terms as you might be dealt with by the health service in England,

:48:10. > :48:13.Scotland and Wales. We know that the Armed Forces Covenant does not give

:48:14. > :48:17.preferential treatment to veterans, it merely seeks to ensure that those

:48:18. > :48:24.veterans are not disadvantaged by virtue of their military service.

:48:25. > :48:27.And yet, the Minister hides behind this notion that somehow applying

:48:28. > :48:34.the military covenant in Northern Ireland would disrupt, would

:48:35. > :48:39.undermine the basis of equality that is at the heart of the Belfast

:48:40. > :48:46.Agreement and a section 75 of the Northern Ireland act 1998. I do

:48:47. > :48:51.think, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we in this House and the department

:48:52. > :48:56.need to do more to challenge this kind of muddled thinking. This

:48:57. > :49:01.wrongful approach. I know the Northern Ireland affairs committee

:49:02. > :49:05.has investigated this matter and in evidence to back committee we had a

:49:06. > :49:11.government minister saying there isn't a problem, section 75 applies

:49:12. > :49:14.but it doesn't interfere with the cementation of the covenant. There

:49:15. > :49:19.we have it in black and white from the Minister of health in Northern

:49:20. > :49:23.Ireland clearly demonstrating that there is an attitude prevailing that

:49:24. > :49:27.they don't even believe the military covenant, the Armed Forces Covenant,

:49:28. > :49:31.applies in Northern Ireland, that it has been adopted in Northern Ireland

:49:32. > :49:34.yet my understanding is clear. The Armed Forces Covenant applies across

:49:35. > :49:38.the United Kingdom, ought to be fully committed across the United

:49:39. > :49:41.Kingdom and it is wrong that veterans in Northern Ireland are

:49:42. > :49:46.suffering from a lack of recognition for the covenant. We need to do

:49:47. > :49:51.something to put that right. In giving evidence to the defence

:49:52. > :49:55.committee, the Minister in response to my colleague the honourable

:49:56. > :50:00.member for East Belfast stated that it was the view of the Department

:50:01. > :50:06.that the military covenant in Northern Ireland was being

:50:07. > :50:10.implemented to the extent that some 83 or 84% of the provisions of the

:50:11. > :50:16.covenant applied in Northern Ireland. Now, I can't evaluate that

:50:17. > :50:21.assessment. But all I can say to the Minister and to the Department that

:50:22. > :50:25.if we have the Department of Health saying the covenant doesn't apply,

:50:26. > :50:31.since health care, access to health care, is such enormously important

:50:32. > :50:34.part of, an enormously important element of the covenant, the

:50:35. > :50:39.Department of Health says, sorry, the covenant doesn't apply, then I'm

:50:40. > :50:43.not convinced that the figure of 84% of the covenant being intimated in

:50:44. > :50:45.Northern Ireland is actually accurate, an accurate reflection of

:50:46. > :50:52.where we really are. I will give way. I'm grateful for the Right

:50:53. > :50:56.Honourable gentleman giving way. I will not try and evaluate 83 or 84%

:50:57. > :51:00.of the covenant but I am clear in having given evidence to the Select

:51:01. > :51:03.Committee and in this House is that whilst progress is being made in

:51:04. > :51:06.Northern Ireland and the covenant applies in Northern Ireland but I

:51:07. > :51:11.fully accept more work needs to be done to ensure we have an equitable

:51:12. > :51:14.status for veterans who reside in Northern Ireland as they do in the

:51:15. > :51:20.United Kingdom. I placed that is one of my priorities during this year to

:51:21. > :51:23.achieve. I appreciate the intervention of the Minister and we

:51:24. > :51:27.will work with the Minister towards that end. Because in the end we are

:51:28. > :51:33.not interested in party politicking about this. We are interested, as he

:51:34. > :51:37.is, in ensuring the best outcome for veterans across the United Kingdom.

:51:38. > :51:41.I am also pleased I am joined on the bench here by the Honourable member

:51:42. > :51:45.for South Antrim and he and I work very closely together on matters

:51:46. > :51:48.relating to the covenant and to the welfare of veterans, and that is an

:51:49. > :51:53.indication that this issue transcends party politics in

:51:54. > :51:56.Northern Ireland. I suppose he and I must redouble our efforts to make

:51:57. > :52:00.sure other political parties recognise that this is about a

:52:01. > :52:04.humanitarian approach to welfare, to the welfare of those who served our

:52:05. > :52:07.country and that we shouldn't allow politics to get in the way of

:52:08. > :52:14.ensuring that when men and women need help they get the help that

:52:15. > :52:17.they require. On the positive side, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to

:52:18. > :52:24.report that we have now an appointment to the Covenant

:52:25. > :52:28.Reference Group which advises government on the covenant and looks

:52:29. > :52:35.at coordinating actions related to the covenant the United Kingdom. I'm

:52:36. > :52:39.delighted my colleague Mrs Brenda Heal who was, until the assembly was

:52:40. > :52:42.dissolved, a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly representing the

:52:43. > :52:47.same constituency as myself, has been appointed to represent Northern

:52:48. > :52:53.Ireland on the Covenant Reference Group and I were to thank the

:52:54. > :53:00.Honourable member for South Antrim for his support. Her husband was

:53:01. > :53:04.tragically killed on active service in Afghanistan while serving with

:53:05. > :53:07.two rifles and Brenda knows on a personal level the challenges faced

:53:08. > :53:14.by veterans in Northern Ireland and I believe she will be a very able

:53:15. > :53:17.representative for those veterans on the Covenant Reference Group. I'm

:53:18. > :53:21.pleased to report that a number of the new councils in Northern Ireland

:53:22. > :53:26.have adopted the community covenant to which the Honourable member made

:53:27. > :53:30.reference in her opening remarks. In my own constituency both the

:53:31. > :53:34.councils that cover the Lagan Valley area are now signed up to the

:53:35. > :53:41.community covenant, that's the Lisbon and Castlereagh City Council

:53:42. > :53:45.and Armagh, Bhambri chant Glenavon, and I'm pleased they are taking the

:53:46. > :53:50.link to the community covenant and that is positive progress. One of

:53:51. > :53:57.the areas, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think further progress could be made

:53:58. > :54:01.on is an effort to coordinate better the very valuable work of fall of

:54:02. > :54:06.the agencies and veterans charities that operate in Northern Ireland. I

:54:07. > :54:09.would personally like to see the establishment of something like a

:54:10. > :54:17.hub for veterans in Northern Ireland that would be a one-stop shop where

:54:18. > :54:19.a veterans group Tadhg Enright could contact this hub to receive

:54:20. > :54:26.information about where to get help, whether it is with welfare issues,

:54:27. > :54:30.health care, pensions and other issues that impact on veterans. We

:54:31. > :54:35.would like to see this type of hub established in Northern Ireland to

:54:36. > :54:38.draw together and coordinate the work of the various organisations

:54:39. > :54:44.and charities. Of course I will give way. Thank you to the Right

:54:45. > :54:49.Honourable member for giving way to me. I thought that we were going to

:54:50. > :54:56.set up a national hub one-stop shop and I actually presume that regions

:54:57. > :55:01.would have a sub one-stop shop as well, it makes sense. I thank the

:55:02. > :55:05.honourable member for his intervention. A good friend of

:55:06. > :55:11.veterans in Northern Ireland, he is. I would share his expectation and

:55:12. > :55:14.indeed his hope that that is exactly what will happen. I just want to

:55:15. > :55:20.ensure that Northern Ireland doesn't lose out on this and that ministers

:55:21. > :55:23.will be able to cooperate with the Northern Ireland Executive and with

:55:24. > :55:29.local organisations representing veterans to ensure this does happen.

:55:30. > :55:37.I also want to raise, Madam Deputy Speaker, a concern about a recent

:55:38. > :55:42.decision by combat stress to withdraw their regional office at

:55:43. > :55:46.service from Northern Ireland. I received contact from a number of

:55:47. > :55:50.veterans across Northern Ireland who have benefited from this very

:55:51. > :55:54.valuable service offering support to them at a great time of need, many

:55:55. > :56:00.of these veterans suffering with mental health problems. I met with

:56:01. > :56:05.the chief executive of Combat Stress and I was very impressed by what

:56:06. > :56:13.they are doing in Northern Ireland. I am impressed by what they do in

:56:14. > :56:17.Northern Ireland. Sue Freeth indicated it would cost ?63,000 per

:56:18. > :56:21.annum to retain this welfare support service and I hope I have written to

:56:22. > :56:25.the Secretary of State about this issue and I really hope that funding

:56:26. > :56:30.can be found. It's not a big amount but it has a big impact. I am

:56:31. > :56:33.grateful to the Right Honourable gentleman for giving way and he is

:56:34. > :56:36.raising a really important issue which is not of course just an issue

:56:37. > :56:40.for Northern Ireland but of course for the mainland in the UK. Perhaps

:56:41. > :56:45.the Minister when he comes to respond might address the issue that

:56:46. > :56:50.the Right Honourable member has made, but for the life of me I think

:56:51. > :56:55.it is extraordinarily important that that welfare contribution from

:56:56. > :57:01.charities such as combat stress which I have been a very strong

:57:02. > :57:04.supporter of, is continued. The link is very important and I hope the

:57:05. > :57:09.honourable gentleman would greet is not simply a matter of medical care.

:57:10. > :57:13.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I can add to what the honourable

:57:14. > :57:16.member said, he is right and I would urge the Minister to look at this.

:57:17. > :57:21.Madam Deputy Speaker, two points I want to make in drawing my remarks

:57:22. > :57:24.to a close. First of all, the after-care service provided by the

:57:25. > :57:29.Royal Irish Regiment is absolutely crucial. We have many thousands of

:57:30. > :57:35.former soldiers in Northern Ireland who served with the Royal Irish home

:57:36. > :57:38.service and Ulster Defence Regiment and that after-care service is

:57:39. > :57:41.undertaking very valuable work in Northern Ireland and I hope that the

:57:42. > :57:46.Minister and his colleagues will ensure the after-care service, much

:57:47. > :57:51.needed as it is, will be retained. The final point I want to make is an

:57:52. > :57:53.important one, Madam Deputy Speaker. Together with the honourable member

:57:54. > :57:59.for Aldershot and the Honourable member for South Antrim, on Saturday

:58:00. > :58:06.I attended a rally in Westminster, a rally of veterans from across the

:58:07. > :58:11.United Kingdom, veterans of the longest running military operations

:58:12. > :58:15.in the history of the British Army. They are concerned about recent

:58:16. > :58:19.arrests and prosecutions of former soldiers who served in Northern

:58:20. > :58:27.Ireland. Some of them in their 60s and 70s. We share their concern. We

:58:28. > :58:30.share their concern that after years of service to their countrymen and

:58:31. > :58:35.women who ought to be enjoying their retirement are waiting for the knock

:58:36. > :58:41.on the door. And in circumstances where it seems that the focus is on

:58:42. > :58:46.what the Armed Forces and the police did in Northern Ireland, much less

:58:47. > :58:50.on what the terrorists did and it is worth bearing in mind that of the

:58:51. > :58:57.3000 unsolved killings in Northern Ireland, the vast majority of those

:58:58. > :58:59.were carried out by terrorist organisations. Yet, the vast

:59:00. > :59:05.majority of the resources currently are going into investigations in

:59:06. > :59:11.relation to alleged killings by the Armed Forces and the police and this

:59:12. > :59:14.is unacceptable. I close Madam Deputy Speaker, by encouraging the

:59:15. > :59:20.and his colleagues and their colleagues in other departments that

:59:21. > :59:24.are involved in this issue, to give serious consideration to the

:59:25. > :59:28.introduction of a statute of limitations that would protect the

:59:29. > :59:31.men and women who have served our country and who deserve that

:59:32. > :59:36.protection. I recognise that no one is above the law. But when cases

:59:37. > :59:40.have been investigated, in some cases not just once but twice

:59:41. > :59:44.previously and when the men and women who served our country have

:59:45. > :59:46.been exonerated, only to find years later that those cases are being

:59:47. > :59:51.reopened then I think there is something wrong. It is having a big

:59:52. > :59:55.impact on recruitment to our Armed Forces. Young men and women are

:59:56. > :59:58.looking at what's happening and asking themselves, why would I join

:59:59. > :00:02.the Armed Forces if I faced the prospect in the future that I might

:00:03. > :00:06.be prosecuted? I repeat, no one is above the law but I really do think

:00:07. > :00:09.the Government needs to act on this, they need to protect the men and

:00:10. > :00:14.women who protected us in our darkest hour.

:00:15. > :00:23.I hope we can manage this afternoon without a formal time limits because

:00:24. > :00:29.this is a pleasant debate, in which there would be a lot of agreement

:00:30. > :00:34.but if it would be courteous if members would speak for under nine

:00:35. > :00:40.minutes thus giving everybody else a chance to contribute. I'm delighted

:00:41. > :00:44.to follow the right honourable gentleman with whom I did alongside

:00:45. > :00:51.the Member for South answer share, it wasn't exactly a platform but a

:00:52. > :00:55.plinth of the King George statue, over a thousand troops were there

:00:56. > :01:02.and I endorse everything he says. It is absolutely immoral that those men

:01:03. > :01:10.who fought in that filthy war wearing the Queen 's uniform facing

:01:11. > :01:14.an enemy wearing civilian clothes lurking in the shadows, having done

:01:15. > :01:19.their best for their countries are now being dragged from the beds at

:01:20. > :01:24.six in the morning in dawn raids to Northern Ireland and it is

:01:25. > :01:30.unacceptable and I'm afraid to say this is not matter simply the police

:01:31. > :01:33.force of the prosecuting authorities, it is as I've told the

:01:34. > :01:40.Prime Minister a matter for ministers. This is a matter of

:01:41. > :01:43.public policy and must be addressed and I strongly endorse the case made

:01:44. > :01:47.by the right honourable gentleman for a statue of limitations and I

:01:48. > :01:53.know many of my honourable friends would have been on that plinth with

:01:54. > :01:59.me had they... On a similar and related points, it was in the

:02:00. > :02:04.Government 's remit, the allegations team for Iraq which is also

:02:05. > :02:09.outrageously criticising four and half thousand soldiers, it looks to

:02:10. > :02:17.be as few as 60, even less, this is an absolute disgrace. I felt at the

:02:18. > :02:27.time Phil Shiner was a disgrace, he was a dreadful man engaged in a

:02:28. > :02:37.cowardly activity of trying to find people who would stand up and accuse

:02:38. > :02:40.his fellow countrymen who went to relieve people of the suffering and

:02:41. > :02:46.I'm very pleased to hear he has been struck off, frankly I don't think

:02:47. > :02:53.that's enough but then I was a supporter of capital punishment. I

:02:54. > :02:58.with agree what he has said, would he also agree to find something nice

:02:59. > :03:06.which I appreciate is difficult that at least it has the benefit of being

:03:07. > :03:09.relatively contemporaneous unlike operation Banner where people are

:03:10. > :03:13.dragged out of their beds metaphorically and many decades

:03:14. > :03:20.trying to work out what you are doing five decades ago is very

:03:21. > :03:28.difficult indeed. At least it is investigating within a relatively

:03:29. > :03:33.short space of time. I agree with my friend who succeeded me and I

:03:34. > :03:41.endorse that. I would like to say more about this but you have asked

:03:42. > :03:43.us to be brief. Let me congratulate the honourable friend for

:03:44. > :03:49.Berwick-upon-Tweed who introduced us to this and for the incredible work

:03:50. > :03:54.she has done this issue, the military government is not specific

:03:55. > :04:00.to any particular party, this is an issue which we can all embrace

:04:01. > :04:06.across the House. It is a covenants not between the Government not

:04:07. > :04:12.between the Government and Armed Forces but the Armed Forces and the

:04:13. > :04:31.people and we as members of this house, they are acting on behalf of

:04:32. > :04:34.the people we feel this acutely. And Project Allenby Connaught which is

:04:35. > :04:37.the largest PFI in the country, nobody knows anything about it, it

:04:38. > :04:43.is the largest PFI in the country, nobody knows anything about it, it

:04:44. > :04:46.isn't ?19 billion PFI nobody knows anything about it, the reason

:04:47. > :04:51.because it is hugely successful and I would like to put on record the

:04:52. > :05:01.fantastic job aspire are doing running this, admitted it has

:05:02. > :05:11.thousands of units of accommodation to sell but nevertheless the result

:05:12. > :05:15.has been a complete transformation we have some of the finest

:05:16. > :05:22.accommodation there and we have new headquarters for the home command

:05:23. > :05:33.recently Montgomery house, and the whole garrison has been transformed.

:05:34. > :05:38.Jeff opened a fantastic sports facility in Aldershot, home of the

:05:39. > :05:45.Army sports board, world-class tennis courts and it really is a

:05:46. > :05:53.great garrison and I would like to page should be to all of those who

:05:54. > :05:58.have contributed. I really get complaints about accommodation, a

:05:59. > :06:06.minister who I met in my constituency when he was a supper at

:06:07. > :06:14.the Royal School of military engineering... The picture he paints

:06:15. > :06:19.is a really excellent one. But I think he can confirm that the cost

:06:20. > :06:23.of housing to buy and rent in his constituency is extremely high,

:06:24. > :06:26.isn't it so much better to have the arrangement he describes that the

:06:27. > :06:36.people out on allowances in the private sector? If I looked quickly

:06:37. > :06:42.at my device it I could tell him the cost of housing in Aldershot, the

:06:43. > :06:46.average cost is ?259,000 which illustrates the challenge of people

:06:47. > :07:01.finding their own homes from the military. He is biting into my

:07:02. > :07:10.time... Can I? I don't want to test the patience of you madam Deputy

:07:11. > :07:14.Speaker. The council signed up to military... Is doing a great job, we

:07:15. > :07:19.have a tremendous relationship between the garrison on the council

:07:20. > :07:26.and a deed recently the council has met with the garrison commander, who

:07:27. > :07:30.is doing a great job, they are going to carry out a workshop to discuss

:07:31. > :07:41.how better they can implement the covenant in Aldershot. I think that

:07:42. > :07:46.is good news. They have quarterly meetings with the words and I very

:07:47. > :07:51.much hope that will be a success forum by these matters can be

:07:52. > :07:58.discussed. Mike Jackson has, if any honourable members know this it is

:07:59. > :08:00.doing a stunningly good job supporting and providing supported

:08:01. > :08:09.housing to single merchants who are either homeless or at risk. If

:08:10. > :08:19.anyone in the House knows people who could benefit from that please do

:08:20. > :08:22.get in touch. The garrison and the town are working together, it is the

:08:23. > :08:27.community partnership project which are signed up to and the new

:08:28. > :08:33.chairman of that is none other than the garrison commander. A lot of

:08:34. > :08:38.good work has come out of this and it is important to recognise what

:08:39. > :08:46.the covenants has delivered. I'm bound to say the choir are of course

:08:47. > :08:55.the finest military wives choir in the country. I can confidently say

:08:56. > :09:00.that without fear of challenge. When they come to sing here I hope

:09:01. > :09:09.honourable members will accept my invitation to this. In conclusion I

:09:10. > :09:14.would like to say that the House is a tremendous job to engage with the

:09:15. > :09:19.public the need to support the Armed Forces. I think there is a lot more

:09:20. > :09:23.to be done and the issue of accommodation, I do understand

:09:24. > :09:28.people have left the Army and sometimes marriages have broken up

:09:29. > :09:31.because of PTSD and other difficulties and they have no

:09:32. > :09:36.connection with the Aldershot area and have served their hand whilst

:09:37. > :09:40.the council does not put them at a disadvantage, the council does not

:09:41. > :09:46.put them at the top of the list. I feel that these feel to go to the

:09:47. > :09:52.top of the list of social housing against some of the young ladies who

:09:53. > :09:57.come and see me and say they need social housing because they feel

:09:58. > :10:06.this way. That is a big challenge we face but another challenge is that

:10:07. > :10:12.we will not rest until those who served under operation Banner no

:10:13. > :10:22.longer face the risk of prosecution whilst the terrorists are getting

:10:23. > :10:25.away scot-free. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable Member for all

:10:26. > :10:30.the short although I did not agree with the last comment about women

:10:31. > :10:44.but we are here to discuss the military. Can I start, my son-in-law

:10:45. > :10:49.is serving in the Army in Cyprus as inactive reservists and my daughter

:10:50. > :10:54.has received some leaflets from those of supporting families who

:10:55. > :11:00.have partners are serving with the forces abroad. I will say there just

:11:01. > :11:20.in case somewhere along the line it changes. I think it is incumbent

:11:21. > :11:25.upon us to debate these matters, all of us agree that the Armed Forces

:11:26. > :11:32.deserve great credit for what they do and a huge respect for those who

:11:33. > :11:46.serve and are currently serving and indeed their families. When I toured

:11:47. > :11:52.in the 1980s we were or in some respects did not commemorate Poppy

:11:53. > :11:58.Day and sometimes it was regarded as, I cannot find the correct word

:11:59. > :12:04.but was often found is not appropriate for military personnel

:12:05. > :12:06.to come into school and it is a great step forward for a country

:12:07. > :12:12.over the last few years, whatever that means that the military are

:12:13. > :12:20.welcome in our schools, that we celebrate Poppy Day and a proper way

:12:21. > :12:31.to teach our children and young people importance, ... And the

:12:32. > :12:36.freedoms which were hard-won and need to be maintained. It is

:12:37. > :12:42.important that we discuss things like this today and just to finish

:12:43. > :12:52.on that, I'm sure this is the experience of all of us, to see so

:12:53. > :13:00.many... Other events through the year. I think that is a huge Tom

:13:01. > :13:05.Ford for us all. It is very good across the whole country including

:13:06. > :13:09.in Northern Ireland when I have seen that happening there. Can I say I

:13:10. > :13:22.agree very much with other remarks The Right Honourable friend made for

:13:23. > :13:26.Gedling and know-how for... Madam Deputy Speaker, can I just say to

:13:27. > :13:28.the Minister that I will make a couple of remarks which will

:13:29. > :13:35.challenge the Government but I want to set it in the context that the

:13:36. > :13:39.reports that were here today are generally a very positive report

:13:40. > :13:43.about how progress is being made. I think all of us from eight

:13:44. > :13:48.consensual point of view would believe progress is being made. But

:13:49. > :13:52.what we do want to see, we've heard about accommodation and other points

:13:53. > :13:55.being race but what we all want to do is try to accelerate that

:13:56. > :13:59.progress and try to say to the Minister these are the challenges

:14:00. > :14:03.that still remain so one makes all the comments I do make it is within

:14:04. > :14:06.the context of recognising the progress so to be fair to the

:14:07. > :14:11.minister and the evidence he gave on the 17th of January to the defence

:14:12. > :14:20.committee, he recognised that himself and some of the messages. I

:14:21. > :14:26.think madam Deputy Speaker that the covenants as it is set out, whatever

:14:27. > :14:31.aspects he sets out and we look at, it does show huge progress. One of

:14:32. > :14:37.the problems is if you look at local authorities then yes every local

:14:38. > :14:44.authority has signed up as I understand it to the covenant that

:14:45. > :14:52.the variation between implementation and action is variable. And we have

:14:53. > :14:55.to find a way of how we hold local authorities to account. Where they

:14:56. > :15:03.have signed up to things, how do we hold them to account in support of

:15:04. > :15:07.them delivering the outcome that they have set. For example a local

:15:08. > :15:14.government Association report found that still whatever efforts we were

:15:15. > :15:19.taking, 40% of those who served in the Armed Forces felt that it still

:15:20. > :15:29.left a disadvantage. And that isn't good enough and we need to find

:15:30. > :15:38.That the government thought it is not by. Have you raise awareness of

:15:39. > :16:15.the responsibilities, it. And you could

:16:16. > :16:18.clarify that in his closing remarks. There are lots of other bodies below

:16:19. > :16:24.that that are responsible for it, for the delivery of the covenant but

:16:25. > :16:27.the interministerial group is important that I would say to the

:16:28. > :16:33.Minister, is meeting twice a year sufficient? I would question whether

:16:34. > :16:36.that is. Secondly, the issue of housing has been raised and there

:16:37. > :16:42.can be no doubt that accommodation frankly in some examples that could

:16:43. > :16:50.be given by any of the Oval Office this is frankly a full. Has

:16:51. > :16:55.beautiful if you for all of us Rafa Silva caliph to sort that out

:16:56. > :16:58.Filtsov it simply isn't good enough, some of the accommodation of our

:16:59. > :17:06.service personnel are having to live in. There is massive reorganisation

:17:07. > :17:09.taking place with respect to the defence estate reorganisation, some

:17:10. > :17:16.27,000 families out to be reorganised. There is a real

:17:17. > :17:19.opportunity as well as a challenge there for the government. I agree

:17:20. > :17:20.very much with the comments by the honourable member for

:17:21. > :17:25.Berwick-upon-Tweed about school admission policy. It raises the

:17:26. > :17:30.issue which I think the minister might want to address in his closing

:17:31. > :17:36.remarks about what actually does the government, what is the Government's

:17:37. > :17:39.view of not disadvantage in the service personnel as opposed to

:17:40. > :17:45.giving preferential treatment? My own view is that the public except

:17:46. > :17:48.in certain circumstances that you do actually advantage service personnel

:17:49. > :17:55.because of their service to the country on school admissions is one

:17:56. > :17:58.example. I am grateful. In Aldershot and finding that Hampshire County

:17:59. > :18:02.Council are being incredibly enlightened about this. They make

:18:03. > :18:07.allowances for the schools in their budgets to allow for what they

:18:08. > :18:11.called turbulence and I'm not having many complaints at all. May I

:18:12. > :18:16.suggest to the honourable gentleman have a word with his local education

:18:17. > :18:19.authority. I'm trying to make a more general point that varies across the

:18:20. > :18:23.country. I'm sure sure in some authorities it is really good and

:18:24. > :18:26.elsewhere it is not so good. Maybe because of the experience of

:18:27. > :18:29.Aldershot within Hampshire it is particularly good faith because

:18:30. > :18:32.there are lots of service personnel and therefore they have experience.

:18:33. > :18:37.What the government must consider is as they disperse across the country

:18:38. > :18:41.to areas where there are lots of new service personnel whether that same

:18:42. > :18:46.quality is given to them. The last point, Madam Deputy Speaker is the

:18:47. > :18:49.issue of mental health will not go away. There are still significant

:18:50. > :18:57.numbers of veterans who are struggling to access the service

:18:58. > :19:01.they need. We can all debate why that is. The frank reality of it is

:19:02. > :19:06.that it has to be improved and more needs to be done. Madam Deputy

:19:07. > :19:11.Speaker, this is hugely significant debate, almost discussion, and I

:19:12. > :19:19.think all of us want the very best for our veterans. Lucy Wood service

:19:20. > :19:25.they do for the country and to make sure the country does the best for

:19:26. > :19:29.them. -- we see what service. The honourable member for Gedling has

:19:30. > :19:31.maintained his interest in the Armed Forces and military despite the fact

:19:32. > :19:34.he has no formal responsibility for it. I disagree with his last point

:19:35. > :19:38.about positive this cremation in favour of the armed services but I

:19:39. > :19:44.will come back to that. Apart from that I endorse what he had to say.

:19:45. > :19:45.I'm grateful to my honourable friend, the member for

:19:46. > :19:49.Berwick-upon-Tweed, who has drilled down to this report with tremendous

:19:50. > :19:53.care of those enormous work with the all-party group on behalf of the

:19:54. > :19:57.armed services and has entered into the Armed Forces scheme with

:19:58. > :20:08.incredible enthusiasm and dedication and comes all party group. Her

:20:09. > :20:17.commitment is not just because she fancies Royal Marines. My honourable

:20:18. > :20:20.friend from South West Wiltshire who I hope we will hear from later on,

:20:21. > :20:27.who some years ago wrote the seminal work on the Armed Forces Covenant. I

:20:28. > :20:29.have a copy from the library at the moment but I can recommend it to my

:20:30. > :20:34.colleagues across the House later on. It was a seminal work and at

:20:35. > :20:40.least partly as a result of his work the Armed Forces Covenant was

:20:41. > :20:45.written into law in 2011, the Armed Forces act. We owe him an enormous

:20:46. > :20:49.debt of gratitude. The same applies to work he did with regard to mental

:20:50. > :20:54.health care for veterans and he the seminal report on the matter, most

:20:55. > :20:56.of his recommendations have been carried out by subsequent

:20:57. > :21:02.governments and I think we should mark my honourable friend's huge

:21:03. > :21:06.service to veterans in that way. Madam Deputy Speaker, all of us here

:21:07. > :21:09.are agreed on the lead for the Armed Forces Covenant, no question about

:21:10. > :21:12.that, we all realise that. Some of us had doubts as to whether it would

:21:13. > :21:17.be written into law but nonetheless it was. I welcome the fact we have

:21:18. > :21:19.annual report that comes out. It is important we should hold the

:21:20. > :21:23.Government's feet to the fire, although I would say to the

:21:24. > :21:26.government that in this context, alongside other defence debates, it

:21:27. > :21:31.would be useful if they have annual debate on the matter, brought the

:21:32. > :21:34.report before the House and invited debate rather than relying on the

:21:35. > :21:37.good offices of the backbench committee to do so, the government

:21:38. > :21:41.should save this is our report and please ask questions about it. I

:21:42. > :21:44.have the Minister will do that in the future. We all support the

:21:45. > :21:49.principles behind the Armed Forces Covenant, no question. I think the

:21:50. > :21:54.principle of the contract between the people and the Armed Forces,

:21:55. > :21:57.epitomised perhaps in my own constituency by the 200 odd

:21:58. > :22:05.occasions when the people of Royal Wootton Bassett turned out to mark

:22:06. > :22:08.their respects for the returning coffins from Afghanistan, epitomised

:22:09. > :22:11.perhaps all good things the people of Britain think about the Armed

:22:12. > :22:14.Forces Covenant. We realise they do things we would not do and we must

:22:15. > :22:19.therefore look after them, respect them and honour them for what we do

:22:20. > :22:24.and I'm glad we do that. And of course, the things we do for them is

:22:25. > :22:27.important. We must make sure their health, physical and mental, is

:22:28. > :22:31.looked after both when they are serving. The covenant is not just

:22:32. > :22:35.about veterans and families but about serving soldiers as well. We

:22:36. > :22:39.must look after them not only when they are serving but of course if

:22:40. > :22:43.they are injured or if they die, or in the rest of their lives we must

:22:44. > :22:47.look after their health, of course. Of course we must look after their

:22:48. > :22:51.housing, their children's education, these things are absolutely right

:22:52. > :22:54.and we must do so. This is where I come on to disagree with the

:22:55. > :22:58.honourable gentleman from Gedling. In a large constituency such as mine

:22:59. > :23:07.where some of the schools are virtually entirely military, if we

:23:08. > :23:10.were to give a disproportionate access to the schools, put them to

:23:11. > :23:13.the top of the housing list, for example, that would be

:23:14. > :23:17.disadvantaging civilians by definition. I'm not certain I could

:23:18. > :23:20.go to my constituents and say I'm sorry, your children cannot get into

:23:21. > :23:23.that school, or you cannot have a council house because we are giving

:23:24. > :23:27.it to military children. I'm not sure that is right. The point behind

:23:28. > :23:30.the government should be the military are not disadvantaged

:23:31. > :23:32.because of their service but not necessarily given excessive

:23:33. > :23:37.advantage either over the rest of the community, otherwise the support

:23:38. > :23:40.for the government would quickly disappear. Wiltshire has been

:23:41. > :23:44.outstanding in support for the covenant over the years. We of the

:23:45. > :23:49.civil military partnership in 2006 first of all and we have 15,000

:23:50. > :23:54.serving personnel, 15,000 dependents, 54,000 veterans and

:23:55. > :23:57.growing. My honourable friend for Aldershot said he revisited the home

:23:58. > :24:01.of the British Army but I rather think Wiltshire is the home of the

:24:02. > :24:10.British Army, we have an enormous number of serving personnel in the

:24:11. > :24:16.area forced council has done a huge amount in implementing the military

:24:17. > :24:22.covenant in Wiltshire and I pay particular tribute to my noble

:24:23. > :24:28.friend, who has taken the lead on this matter as the leader of

:24:29. > :24:32.Wiltshire council. Madam Deputy Speaker, nonetheless, I think in

:24:33. > :24:38.addition to the community covenant and the local government covenant we

:24:39. > :24:43.must not let ourselves forget those great people who make contributions

:24:44. > :24:51.to the welfare of our soldiers and veterans. I'm glad the Minister and

:24:52. > :24:54.I do not forget the charitable side of things and the huge number of

:24:55. > :25:00.charities doing useful things, I was proud recently to be made a patron

:25:01. > :25:05.of the operation Christmas box which sends 25,000 Christmas boxes to our

:25:06. > :25:09.armed services on deployment around the world every Christmas and it is

:25:10. > :25:13.hugely appreciated by the soldiers. These things are very important that

:25:14. > :25:16.that form part of the military covenant but they achieve many of

:25:17. > :25:20.the things that the military covenant does. Let's not forget the

:25:21. > :25:22.charitable sector and local government sector and business

:25:23. > :25:28.sector alongside all that government does for our armed services. So far

:25:29. > :25:33.there has been largely consensual and agreeable debate. I mean to

:25:34. > :25:37.reduce that that I have two or three questions I would like to ask about

:25:38. > :25:40.the way in which the covenant is operating the Minister might like to

:25:41. > :25:43.reply to, or possibly take into consideration in the year ahead as

:25:44. > :25:47.he applies the covenant. The first thing is I'm concerned about the

:25:48. > :25:52.decline in interest. Ten or 15 years ago there was political warfare

:25:53. > :25:55.around the world and people were concerned about the Armed Forces.

:25:56. > :26:01.Today that is rapidly declining as evidenced by the level of donations

:26:02. > :26:05.to charities, Help For Heroes was up to ?40 million a year at one time

:26:06. > :26:08.and donations have sharply come down, the same with the Royal

:26:09. > :26:13.British Legion and elsewhere. My concern is that if as we all hope we

:26:14. > :26:16.do not see a return to warfare for many years to come, my concern is

:26:17. > :26:20.that this paper will become a dusty documents and people forget about

:26:21. > :26:22.the literary covenant and it becomes ancient history and the military

:26:23. > :26:28.will disappear from the front lines of headlines, disappear from the

:26:29. > :26:31.public's awareness. I would be interested to know what the Minister

:26:32. > :26:38.thinks he could do to avoid that occurring. The second thing is that

:26:39. > :26:40.those of us who represent military constituencies are aware of these

:26:41. > :26:43.things, the footprint of the military across Britain is

:26:44. > :26:48.increasingly small, the permanent basing structure we have with the

:26:49. > :26:52.five super basis of the Army needs large part of the country have no

:26:53. > :26:55.military involvement at all. I think the military covenant should be a

:26:56. > :26:58.way of spreading the word throughout the population of Great Britain that

:26:59. > :27:01.these are things we must care about. I wonder if the Minister has

:27:02. > :27:06.thoughts about the ways in which that could be done. Secondly, I'm

:27:07. > :27:09.concerned about the fact we have written the military covenant into

:27:10. > :27:12.law, that's a good thing, that structure for everything we have

:27:13. > :27:16.discussed today. There are two problems with it, the first is that

:27:17. > :27:19.because it is written into law we might be able to tell ourselves we

:27:20. > :27:24.have done something about it, to assuage our conscience and the much

:27:25. > :27:28.greater things we would do not in law. In other words the law must not

:27:29. > :27:31.become the lowest common denominator and it must become the level to

:27:32. > :27:35.which we must not fall below but we should do many more things even if

:27:36. > :27:38.it is not enshrined into the covenant. I'd be interested to know

:27:39. > :27:41.from the Minister how many legal cases there have been in the last

:27:42. > :27:49.year or two macro which have used the covenant as evidence in cases

:27:50. > :27:56.against the Ministry of Defence. Are the Armed Forces and spouses using

:27:57. > :28:00.the British Government to sue the MOD? It would be interesting to know

:28:01. > :28:02.whether or not the covenant has become part of the law in that sense

:28:03. > :28:06.This report contains flash photography. Using the covenant sue

:28:07. > :28:12.the MOD. Finally, the fixation we have which is important with

:28:13. > :28:17.veterans, with housing and all of these things. Of course those things

:28:18. > :28:26.are important, the Honourable member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, was right to

:28:27. > :28:30.say that if we don't get those things right the levels will go

:28:31. > :28:33.down. We have to get right the way we employ these people, often in

:28:34. > :28:39.appalling circumstances we often wouldn't contemplate doing. It's not

:28:40. > :28:45.just about the wives, the children, although these aims are important,

:28:46. > :28:48.it's about the soldier. That is where my honourable friend from

:28:49. > :28:54.South West Wiltshire's book comes into the matter. The great Tommy

:28:55. > :28:58.poem, if I may just quote a couple of lines from it, which absolutely

:28:59. > :29:03.ghost of a heart of the military covenant. Its Tom Davis and Tommy

:29:04. > :29:08.Stack and Tommy go away, but it's thank you Mr Atkins when the band

:29:09. > :29:13.begins to play. It is Tommy this, Tommy that, Tommy, how is your soul

:29:14. > :29:20.but it is the thin red line when the drum begins to roll. Tom Davis,

:29:21. > :29:26.Tommy that, falls behind but please walk in front when there is trouble

:29:27. > :29:32.in the wind. We will wait for extra rations, don't mess around that

:29:33. > :29:38.prove it to your face. For it is Tommy this, Tommy that, chuck him

:29:39. > :29:46.out the route, but the saviour of his country when the guns begin to

:29:47. > :29:52.shoot. Can I add my congratulations to those Honourable members, the

:29:53. > :29:54.Honourable member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, not just for

:29:55. > :29:57.securing the debate but for what I thought was an outstanding

:29:58. > :30:03.introduction showing the real depth of her knowledge and work in this

:30:04. > :30:11.area. I wasn't aware of the APPG and I am now. I pay tribute to its work.

:30:12. > :30:14.I want to come to some of the issues she raised in my contribution and I

:30:15. > :30:17.welcome the report very much and wish to look with respect to the

:30:18. > :30:21.honourable gentleman from Wiltshire and talked about the importance of

:30:22. > :30:25.servicemen, perhaps if we could talk about the support for veterans and

:30:26. > :30:29.their families and in particular about service accommodation. The

:30:30. > :30:31.covenant is and surely must continue to be a lifetime guaranteed for all

:30:32. > :30:35.those who have served our country and now it's as good as time as any

:30:36. > :30:41.to offer my gratitude to those who have served. It was my pleasure a

:30:42. > :30:44.couple of months ago to open the annual conference of the new

:30:45. > :30:47.Westminster Centre for research and innovation in veterans will be at

:30:48. > :30:53.the University of Chester, not named after this place but after the great

:30:54. > :30:58.Duke of Westminster who was a great supporter of the armed services. The

:30:59. > :31:02.centre is led by Colonel Alan Finnegan, formerly of the Royal Army

:31:03. > :31:07.Medical Corps and has links to the veterans community and regional army

:31:08. > :31:13.brigade. During the opening session I recounted a story that happened in

:31:14. > :31:18.Chester early in my term where as one of the city's MPs, where one of

:31:19. > :31:21.the apparently homeless people begging on the streets, one of the

:31:22. > :31:24.regulars in the city centre we recognised, and a sign that said he

:31:25. > :31:31.was an ex-serviceman, ex-army, and that great 21st-century phenomenon

:31:32. > :31:36.up a social media storm. People were getting extremely angry at what they

:31:37. > :31:40.saw was a crime of impersonation and even asked for the police to be

:31:41. > :31:43.involved. They were not suggesting it was a crime of impersonation, and

:31:44. > :31:48.wasn't really homeless, the anger of the people was the fact this person

:31:49. > :31:50.was claiming to be an ex-service personnel and they believe he

:31:51. > :31:53.wasn't. I don't know whether he was or wasn't that this goes to the

:31:54. > :31:57.point made by the honourable gentleman from Wiltshire talking

:31:58. > :32:00.about his constituents in Wootton Bassett and indeed from my

:32:01. > :32:05.honourable friend from Gedling that there is a real sense of pride in

:32:06. > :32:10.the service of our members and it is a welcome change from the atmosphere

:32:11. > :32:14.that my honourable friend talked about all those years ago when we do

:32:15. > :32:18.hold that pride. It goes to show that in Chester and more widely

:32:19. > :32:19.across the country the Armed Forces should be able to wear that service

:32:20. > :32:28.as a badge of honour. Never mind that in the husband the

:32:29. > :32:33.70s and 80s Armed Forces personnel were specifically ordered not to

:32:34. > :32:36.wear uniform in public because of the provisional IRA and other

:32:37. > :32:40.terrorist threats. That is one of the reasons why we did not see

:32:41. > :32:43.people wandering around in uniform. I most grateful to that and of

:32:44. > :32:46.course there is a terrorist threat today but I do believe that

:32:47. > :32:50.atmosphere has changed and it has changed for the better. When I was

:32:51. > :32:55.at that conference at the University of Chester perhaps the most

:32:56. > :32:59.important reminder for me was that for all the important work we have

:33:00. > :33:03.referred to on mental and physical health, which I will refer to later,

:33:04. > :33:06.most of our service better and are not needy and suffering but have

:33:07. > :33:12.benefited greatly from the training and experience in the comic chip

:33:13. > :33:18.that service gives them and they are continuing to contribute to society

:33:19. > :33:22.--, chip. Discipline and personal response ability and ingenuity from

:33:23. > :33:24.a young age are all huge benefits to the individual as well as the

:33:25. > :33:29.community. The report talks about some of the successes in the

:33:30. > :33:33.succession that the section on covenant in business. I worried that

:33:34. > :33:36.we don't highlight enough the contribution of exurbs Bussell to

:33:37. > :33:42.society and we can't allow them to be seen again as burdens on society.

:33:43. > :33:45.My honourable friend mentioned their art needs that need to be met. We

:33:46. > :33:50.note military veterans present in about health issues including the

:33:51. > :33:56.pressure in the PTSD and obesity. We also note that a larger than average

:33:57. > :34:00.number enter into the judicial system for violent crimes associated

:34:01. > :34:03.with alcohol abuse. Money is allocated to the Armed Forces

:34:04. > :34:07.government that is less clear if the measurable outcomes regarding the

:34:08. > :34:10.impact of these initiatives. As a government grant should include

:34:11. > :34:14.measurable outcomes in the applications and where appropriate

:34:15. > :34:19.and perhaps this is a shameless plug for a university in my constituency,

:34:20. > :34:23.the government might consider using academic partners to shape how valid

:34:24. > :34:27.and reliable information is collected and reported on some of

:34:28. > :34:31.these schemes. I understand the MOD covenant is looking at this and has

:34:32. > :34:35.invited if Britain is of interest and I welcome that. The honourable

:34:36. > :34:38.lady made a long section on servers values referred to in chapter eight

:34:39. > :34:41.of the report which I welcome and the role of the family can be

:34:42. > :34:46.overlooked sometimes but clearly not today. When signal to support our

:34:47. > :34:52.forces and veterans could any stress on the service man or woman also has

:34:53. > :34:56.an impact on the family. One way of achieving this and she referred to

:34:57. > :35:01.this is to add as much stability to family life as possible in welcoming

:35:02. > :35:07.surroundings and possibly, this is also reflected in retention rates.

:35:08. > :35:13.That leads and begin the honourable gentleman from Welch talked about

:35:14. > :35:18.the consensual nature of the debate -- Wiltshire. The government has

:35:19. > :35:26.decided to sell off the Dale barracks in Wiltshire. The decision

:35:27. > :35:29.I believe is myopic and damaging and it will do nothing to maintain

:35:30. > :35:34.morale amongst the servicemen or families and the popularity of the

:35:35. > :35:37.barracks is reflected in the number of service families to stay in the

:35:38. > :35:42.Chester area after leaving the Army. The local schools are well used to

:35:43. > :35:47.dealing with service children. This doesn't just mean making extra

:35:48. > :35:51.effort to welcome and integrate new arrivals to give as much stability

:35:52. > :35:55.as possible. Primary schools in the area where the barracks are based

:35:56. > :35:59.are skilled at dealing with the pressures on the children when that

:36:00. > :36:04.mums or dad are deployed awake and I say to the honourable lady on

:36:05. > :36:07.Berwick, I was not aware of a ten minute rule Bill that this is an

:36:08. > :36:10.area of great importance to three of four schools in the area I will be

:36:11. > :36:16.looking at that bill to see what support I can give. Closing the Dale

:36:17. > :36:20.is unpopular and wrong and it has been done because land values in

:36:21. > :36:27.Chester are higher so they can be sold off more easily. I don't think

:36:28. > :36:30.it will assist... I will give way. Speaking as someone who has lived in

:36:31. > :36:35.the Dale barracks and white regiment was based there, can I remind the

:36:36. > :36:39.house and the honourable gentleman of course we'll know this, that the

:36:40. > :36:44.whole barracks was modernised only about 20 years ago and was

:36:45. > :36:50.considered them to be a future base for infantry. Most grateful to the

:36:51. > :36:55.honourable and gallant gentleman who I consider a friend and whose

:36:56. > :36:57.service in the Cheshire Regiment we should never fail to recognise and

:36:58. > :37:02.the experience he brings to this house should never be

:37:03. > :37:06.underestimated. I have to say, the house may wish to know is still held

:37:07. > :37:14.in extreme the high regard in my constituency. I don't think the

:37:15. > :37:19.closure of the barracks will assist the Army in its effectiveness and I

:37:20. > :37:24.ask the government to think again. Before I put a close can I touch

:37:25. > :37:29.briefly on two issues? The first is what was mentioned by the Right

:37:30. > :37:32.Honourable for Lagan Valley concerning Northern Ireland. The

:37:33. > :37:35.criminal investigations into every death in the British Army during the

:37:36. > :37:43.troubles is wrong. If evidence of a crime can be presented it should be

:37:44. > :37:45.investigated. The honourable gentleman from Aldershot has talked

:37:46. > :37:52.about a statute of limitation, I don't know about that. But a blanket

:37:53. > :37:55.inquiry cannot be justified. As I mentioned, many former members of

:37:56. > :37:59.the Cheshire Regiment which served with distinction in Northern Ireland

:38:00. > :38:02.are either originally from all have since settled in my constituency.

:38:03. > :38:07.Their servers should be their honour and I will defend them. There's a

:38:08. > :38:13.good service. Some may be integrated in the new inquiry do so in the

:38:14. > :38:16.specific terms of today's debate on the Armed Forces government if the

:38:17. > :38:20.government has not already done so, and if it has I apologise, could be

:38:21. > :38:25.ministers consider it guaranteeing full legal support to any X service

:38:26. > :38:30.man or woman that is dragged into this unfair mess? The final point to

:38:31. > :38:36.make is again about veterans and ex-servicemen. Ray Tindall, my

:38:37. > :38:40.constituent, along with John Armstrong on Nick Dunn, Nicholas

:38:41. > :38:44.Simson, and Billy Irving, remains incarcerated in a prison in India

:38:45. > :38:51.convicted wrongly of a crime they did not commit. I will give way. I

:38:52. > :38:53.thank him for giving way and also for raising this incredibly

:38:54. > :39:00.important point. Woody agreed that our service veterans, they are owed

:39:01. > :39:04.even more of duty of care by the government which be doing anything

:39:05. > :39:09.possible to get them home where they belong? I certainly agree and if I

:39:10. > :39:13.might form a a close on that very themes, which are all ex-servicemen.

:39:14. > :39:20.Ray was in the Indian Ocean with the other men to raise money, in his

:39:21. > :39:26.case to be able to raise extra money to grosses business in Chester. I

:39:27. > :39:30.will make the case of the Jennerich six at every opportunity because

:39:31. > :39:34.with the greatest of respect MOD ministers, I don't believe the

:39:35. > :39:37.Foreign Office is helping their cause with the Indian government to

:39:38. > :39:41.release them. Ray has seen active service in recent conflicts and if

:39:42. > :39:44.the government meet anything to them and to me, it means that we must

:39:45. > :39:47.continue all our efforts to bring him and the lads home. Sir Julian

:39:48. > :39:55.brazing. Thank you madam that the speaker and

:39:56. > :39:59.I congratulate my honourable friend on obtaining this debate. It is a

:40:00. > :40:02.particular pleasure to follow the member for Chester is praise for my

:40:03. > :40:07.honourable friend and for the late Duke of Wellington I would very

:40:08. > :40:13.much, Westminster, I would very much like to endorse. It is an

:40:14. > :40:17.unavoidable fact that that body of men and women who we asked to do the

:40:18. > :40:22.most difficult and dangerous task for us have, for obvious reasons, no

:40:23. > :40:27.public voice. There is a particular duty as members of this house have

:40:28. > :40:29.alluded to us as a house to take an interest in their concerns. I'm very

:40:30. > :40:35.glad to see my honourable friend in his place, a man who has done three

:40:36. > :40:38.operational tours, and the growth and the flowering of the covenant is

:40:39. > :40:42.in no small part thanks to my honourable friend. It grieves me

:40:43. > :40:48.greatly that I shall spend almost all of my speech on subjects where

:40:49. > :40:58.profoundly disagree. Last year the MOD won a settlement which committed

:40:59. > :41:04.us to 2% of GDP, a welcome move, and to a very modest but positive growth

:41:05. > :41:09.path. It was still the lowest proportion of GDP since before the

:41:10. > :41:12.Second World War and at the same time we committed ourselves to an

:41:13. > :41:17.equipment programme which has left the amount of money left to pay for

:41:18. > :41:20.our personnel themselves badly squeezed. This debate on the Armed

:41:21. > :41:26.Forces government gives us an opportunity to discuss the position

:41:27. > :41:30.-- covenant. The Armed Forces have felt the same pressures as the rest

:41:31. > :41:34.of the public sector and rightly so, the same pay squeeze them the same

:41:35. > :41:38.large-scale reductions in pension rights, but on top of that they have

:41:39. > :41:42.already severed in a number of additional ways, large rises in

:41:43. > :41:46.rents, restrictions in availability of various alliances, even a

:41:47. > :41:52.noticeable decline in the quality of food for the single personnel. And

:41:53. > :41:59.the effects can be seen in the numbers. The Army, in my view, as

:42:00. > :42:02.the best senior management for a generation or two, a new breed of

:42:03. > :42:09.generals who came through middle ranking command positions in combat

:42:10. > :42:14.and are putting in all sorts of reforms and yet the regular Army

:42:15. > :42:18.today is 3600 short and shrinking. The Evalds is nearly 2000 short and

:42:19. > :42:22.we have the smallest number of private ever since the service was

:42:23. > :42:28.founded -- the air force. Mabil numbers have stabilised, quite close

:42:29. > :42:33.to target -- naval numbers. It is a remarkable achievement by the

:42:34. > :42:37.seniors is that with the greatest budgetary pressures of all and a

:42:38. > :42:42.colossal level of operational Cuskin,

:42:43. > :42:57.-- operational tasking. Regular surveys of those leaving the Armed

:42:58. > :43:03.Forces show each year that the largest single factor is the strain

:43:04. > :43:08.on family life. It is in this context that I would focus

:43:09. > :43:10.exclusively on chapter three of the covenant, the new accommodation

:43:11. > :43:16.model. Many colleagues will be aware of the recent report by the video

:43:17. > :43:20.and talks about the condition of the housing stock in the long backlog of

:43:21. > :43:25.repairs but I'm much more concerned about what goes on to say about how

:43:26. > :43:30.short-term thinking over the past generation is setting is on a

:43:31. > :43:34.downward spiral. I quote, diminish the estate within its budget, the

:43:35. > :43:38.Department has made decisions that subsequently offer poor value for

:43:39. > :43:45.money in the long term including the 1996 decision to sell and lease back

:43:46. > :43:49.the majority of service family accommodation which is now limiting

:43:50. > :43:52.the department's ability to manage this element of the estate cost

:43:53. > :43:55.effectively. Of course the next problem on that arises in four

:43:56. > :44:03.years' time. It is a matter of record that I opposed that sell-off.

:44:04. > :44:06.Against this unpromising background I have much sympathy for my

:44:07. > :44:13.honourable friend in 20 find a new way forward on housing. Even that

:44:14. > :44:18.that is that the survey just published suggests that 55% of the

:44:19. > :44:22.20,000 odd people who responded were broadly in favour of the proposals,

:44:23. > :44:26.almost twice as many as those against. Nevertheless I hope to

:44:27. > :44:27.persuade the house in the next few minutes that this is a profound

:44:28. > :44:41.mistake. 4-2-4 reasons. First, geography. -- for four

:44:42. > :44:45.reasons. The majority of our garrisons in RAF stations are not

:44:46. > :44:51.near a supply of affordable housing to buy or rent. Catterick and

:44:52. > :44:57.Tidworth, the two largest bases, or in the middle of nowhere. My sister

:44:58. > :45:01.lives in a Catterick. Our RAF bases in Oxfordshire are among some of the

:45:02. > :45:05.most expensive housing in the country, all three of our fast jet

:45:06. > :45:09.fighter bases are in remote locations and even where housing is

:45:10. > :45:10.plentiful, as in my honourable friend's constituency in Aldershot,

:45:11. > :45:18.it is unaffordable. In the second reason why the

:45:19. > :45:26.accommodation model is wrong is on officers. Let me just for a second

:45:27. > :45:30.diverged. America has gone down a policy of saying, let's have

:45:31. > :45:32.alliances in some cases rather than family accommodation, where you have

:45:33. > :45:39.affordable accommodation in the area. But it is strictly based on

:45:40. > :45:41.rank. In contrast, the Government's statement is, the accommodation

:45:42. > :45:48.allowance of tomorrow will be provided based on need, regardless

:45:49. > :45:52.of rank. Now, I want to focus the house's mind on the group who will

:45:53. > :46:00.lose most out of this. The critical group where we are losing people,

:46:01. > :46:03.coming up to the captains who are about to be majors, the company

:46:04. > :46:08.commanders and squadron commanders, the backbone of the regimental

:46:09. > :46:13.system, those people, their counterparts in the RAF, just coming

:46:14. > :46:17.up to the first break point for fast jet pilots after all those millions

:46:18. > :46:21.we have invested will be told that unless they have a large family,

:46:22. > :46:27.instead of a substantial house, they will be given a small allowance in

:46:28. > :46:33.order to be able to fund a more generous arrangement for junior

:46:34. > :46:37.ranks with large family. Any civilian business that try to follow

:46:38. > :46:42.those principles would be bust within a year or two. The regimental

:46:43. > :46:48.Sergeant Major, the backbone of the regiment, the special arrangements

:46:49. > :46:52.for him, brushed aside. The third reason why I believe it's profoundly

:46:53. > :46:56.wrong is the continuing need for mobility. As long as I have been a

:46:57. > :47:01.member of Parliament, every Government has committed itself to

:47:02. > :47:04.greater stability. There is some evidence that mobility has slightly

:47:05. > :47:10.increased. I believe my honourable friend may introduce a bit more

:47:11. > :47:15.stability, but all staff training and all the best staff jobs for all

:47:16. > :47:20.three services are in suburban England, but the majority of army

:47:21. > :47:25.units and almost all the RAF are not. So, officers will continue to

:47:26. > :47:29.have to be posted up and down the country from those two services, and

:47:30. > :47:34.from the submarine service, too, who are in a different position from the

:47:35. > :47:38.rest of the Navy. Yes, of course. Does my honourable friend not also

:47:39. > :47:41.agree that it is a complete nonsense that senior military personnel

:47:42. > :47:46.should have to go by second class public transport? I had a general in

:47:47. > :47:50.Aldershot who had a national command, and with a helicopter, he

:47:51. > :47:57.could brief his staff at 7:30am in Aldershot and could be up north by

:47:58. > :48:00.10am. I think my honourable friend makes a very important point, and

:48:01. > :48:05.the minister had better listen to him. I am grateful to my honourable

:48:06. > :48:12.friend for his endorsement, and that is an important additional point. It

:48:13. > :48:16.is not only officers being posted around staff jobs, the centres of

:48:17. > :48:22.excellence where we train the next generation of people for the Army

:48:23. > :48:27.should get the cream of the senior NCOs from all over the Army. How are

:48:28. > :48:39.we... Are we going to say that Brecon, with no army unit

:48:40. > :48:42.shortly,... And all the other corresponding schools. RAF Valley -

:48:43. > :48:47.crucial that you get the best instructors there. There is in a

:48:48. > :48:59.healthy housing market there. The fourth reason is the question of

:49:00. > :49:04.cost, and this brings me into the... Let me give three examples on how

:49:05. > :49:06.the wording of the question and the issue of cost way against each

:49:07. > :49:12.other. The first is the issue of housing quality. The Australians

:49:13. > :49:18.operate a very successful system whereby they lease properties in the

:49:19. > :49:23.local housing market. Their bases are nearly all the major centres of

:49:24. > :49:26.population, unlike ours. They do it on the basis that all of the risk

:49:27. > :49:31.and maintenance is taken on by the defence Housing authority. Such an

:49:32. > :49:36.arrangement is very expensive, and they fund it. Now, the reason the

:49:37. > :49:39.majority of people gave for preferring the new system as it was

:49:40. > :49:43.put to them once they thought they would get better houses. They are

:49:44. > :49:47.reminded in the course of the survey, and I have a copy if anyone

:49:48. > :49:52.wants to see it, that there was a lot of dissatisfaction with existing

:49:53. > :49:54.housing. It doesn't tell them that they in future will be responsible

:49:55. > :50:00.for all the risk on maintenance if they go away on exercise, and all of

:50:01. > :50:05.us know, as MPs, how bad some private sector landlords are. Unless

:50:06. > :50:10.we are going to take on a huge extra cost. Again, it says we will reach

:50:11. > :50:19.out to unmarried families. I am in favour of that and I think there is

:50:20. > :50:22.a serious cake to be made but thated 's -- there is a serious case to be

:50:23. > :50:27.made for that. Are we really going to give people with kids from

:50:28. > :50:30.previous relationships a gigantic allowance, perhaps twice as much as

:50:31. > :50:36.an RSM are a major with no children? That would in fact be the

:50:37. > :50:41.arrangement. There has to be a limit somewhere, but this is all dangled

:50:42. > :50:48.in that same survey. I will give way. My honourable friend makes

:50:49. > :50:53.fantastic points, and I forgive him for interrupting. I would encourage

:50:54. > :50:59.him to observe one other thing Sunni the nature of military service is

:51:00. > :51:09.such that you are dragged away from your home base very frequently,

:51:10. > :51:14.which means that a spouse, perhaps -- I would encourage him to observe

:51:15. > :51:26.one other thing - the nature of military services such... They will,

:51:27. > :51:29.quite literally, be their own. My honourable and gallant friend puts

:51:30. > :51:32.it in an absolute nutshell, much better than I have. The last point I

:51:33. > :51:42.want to make about the survey, and then I will finish, is this - 11

:51:43. > :51:46.times in the survey, it refers to home ownership. People in the Armed

:51:47. > :51:50.Forces desperately want to own homes. They are worried about what

:51:51. > :51:55.will happen when they leave. Nowhere in the survey does it say, we are

:51:56. > :52:00.moving out of all the garrisons where that's practical. Canterbury's

:52:01. > :52:04.closed, Chester is about to close, Ripon is closing, and we are

:52:05. > :52:12.focusing on areas where it is impractical to become a local owner

:52:13. > :52:18.occupier. So, what do I suggest? I suggest this: Two basic points we

:52:19. > :52:23.need to come to terms with. The first is that within the size of the

:52:24. > :52:30.defence budget we have committed ourselves to, there has to be a

:52:31. > :52:34.degree of rebalancing. I suspect I and most of the people in this

:52:35. > :52:39.chamber believe we should spend more money on defence, but if we cannot

:52:40. > :52:43.persuade our colleagues to spend more money on defence, with all the

:52:44. > :52:47.threats out there in the world, the budget needs a degree of

:52:48. > :52:51.rebalancing. We have to accept either slightly smaller regular

:52:52. > :52:55.forces, or we had to accept that we have to buy less equipment, but

:52:56. > :53:02.rather than tearing up a model that works, we need to fund it properly.

:53:03. > :53:07.The second point that we need to do is, we've got to find a vehicle for

:53:08. > :53:15.enabling that route to homeownership, and the key to that

:53:16. > :53:21.for many people is biding to let, which means a special arrangement on

:53:22. > :53:26.the change in the budget last year, which usually disadvantages service

:53:27. > :53:30.landlords, who are treated like ordinary landlords, when it is the

:53:31. > :53:34.only property they have. So they pay a higher rate of tax on the rent

:53:35. > :53:39.coming in than they do on the interest payments made. It means

:53:40. > :53:48.revisiting, and here there has been progress, revisiting the way that

:53:49. > :53:53.forces helped by operate so that there is no procedure whereby you

:53:54. > :53:59.how to apply to let the property, you just let it when you move and

:54:00. > :54:03.there are no problems. We need to find ways perhaps reinforcing that

:54:04. > :54:07.model a bit and put more money into it, and we need to address the my

:54:08. > :54:11.honourable friend from Aldershot made, which is that the people at

:54:12. > :54:18.the bottom end of the financial scale in the Armed Forces, they

:54:19. > :54:23.should be prioritised in waiting lists, but, and this is crucial, it

:54:24. > :54:27.must be done in a way fair. It can't just be where they are serving. My

:54:28. > :54:32.honourable friend made an important point on that. It must be in the

:54:33. > :54:38.place of origin, otherwise a few communities would carry all of it. I

:54:39. > :54:46.firmly believe that this Government is strongly committed to our Armed

:54:47. > :54:52.Forces. I have huge confidence in our ministers. I know that everyone

:54:53. > :54:55.who stayed behind on this debate on the Thursday cares about our Armed

:54:56. > :55:01.Forces, but I believe that the new accommodation model is a serious

:55:02. > :55:12.threat to two of our three Armed Forces. Thank you. Thank you, Madam

:55:13. > :55:14.Deputy Speaker. I would first of all like to congratulate the honourable

:55:15. > :55:20.member for Berwick-upon-Tweed for securing this debate, and for half

:55:21. > :55:24.passionate support for serving personnel and veterans, and her

:55:25. > :55:30.knowledge of their issues. I think I can safely say that we all welcome

:55:31. > :55:33.the publication of the first annual report on the Armed Forces Covenant,

:55:34. > :55:39.but should be very aware of that very big challenges which remain

:55:40. > :55:43.while welcoming progress made. The announcement last year of the ?10

:55:44. > :55:49.million per annum covenant fund was clearly a step forward, and 300

:55:50. > :55:54.projects which have resulted from it are a positive foundation that can

:55:55. > :55:58.be built on. In recent years, society has become much more aware

:55:59. > :56:03.and more understanding of the effects of military service on the

:56:04. > :56:07.health, mental and physical, of those who chose to serve, and on the

:56:08. > :56:11.relationships with their families and communities. However, quite

:56:12. > :56:15.apart from the rigours of their jobs, the challenges that face

:56:16. > :56:22.current and former military personnel in their own lives are

:56:23. > :56:26.many and varied, from post-traumatic stress of physical rehabilitation to

:56:27. > :56:31.simply finding a house and job once they leave the military. They are an

:56:32. > :56:36.asset to society and deserve our thanks, respect and support. There

:56:37. > :56:40.are some 30 million veterans in the UK today, amounting to one of the

:56:41. > :56:47.highest densities of veterans in a major country. In Scotland alone,

:56:48. > :56:52.approximately 1800 men complete military service and settle, many

:56:53. > :56:56.with their families, in our communities every year. Transition

:56:57. > :57:00.from Armed Forces to civilian life is a hugely unsettling process. It

:57:01. > :57:07.involves leaving behind a job, a home, a community and a unique way

:57:08. > :57:12.of life, possibly the only life that many service men and women have

:57:13. > :57:15.known in their adult lives. The importance of caring for veterans

:57:16. > :57:23.was underlined even further this week with the publication of a

:57:24. > :57:27.report entitled multiple deprivation in help seeking veterans by the

:57:28. > :57:33.charity combat stress. Among the key findings was the key linkage between

:57:34. > :57:40.areas with higher risk of deprivation and mental health

:57:41. > :57:44.difficulties. In addition, there was the startling finding that

:57:45. > :57:52.individual veterans take an average of 11 years before seeking help

:57:53. > :57:56.after leaving the military. I thank my friend for taking the

:57:57. > :58:00.intervention. She is absolutely right to highlight the stress that

:58:01. > :58:03.can because to service men and women and their families and dependents

:58:04. > :58:07.when they leave the service, so would she therefore join me in

:58:08. > :58:10.congratulating the Scottish Government's commitment to

:58:11. > :58:18.supporting our ex-service personnel through the Scottish veterans fund,

:58:19. > :58:23.which contributes ?600,000 over three years to a range of projects

:58:24. > :58:27.in our communities? I thank my honourable friend for his

:58:28. > :58:32.intervention, and I was in fact and will be coming that very shortly in

:58:33. > :58:37.my speech. For all the progress that has been done in recent times, there

:58:38. > :58:41.is clearly still much to do to encourage veterans to seek the help

:58:42. > :58:45.they need and deserve. The fifth annual report does cover what has

:58:46. > :58:53.happened in Scotland but does not provide much detail, and I hope to

:58:54. > :58:56.provide this. In January 2014, Cabinet Secretary Keith Brown

:58:57. > :59:03.announced the creation of a Scottish veterans commission to act as an

:59:04. > :59:09.ambassador for ex-service personnel. Eric Fraser CBE, a former Royal Navy

:59:10. > :59:13.officer, was appointed to this post. On the 13th of December last year,

:59:14. > :59:19.the Scottish Government announced that Mr Fraser was to be reappointed

:59:20. > :59:25.until August 20 18. The commissioner has published three briefings on

:59:26. > :59:28.Scotland's veterans - transition in Scotland, March 2015, report on the

:59:29. > :59:36.provision of information on housing for service leaders and veterans in

:59:37. > :59:39.Scotland, August 2015, and most recently, the veterans community

:59:40. > :59:46.employability, skills and training. I recommend these, and they read

:59:47. > :59:52.much better than the titles I am trying to enunciate. The Scottish

:59:53. > :59:59.veterans fund was established by the Scottish Government to assist groups

:00:00. > :00:04.and organisations that in turn offer assistance to Scotland's X service

:00:05. > :00:08.personnel, their families and dependents, and is administered by

:00:09. > :00:12.Veterans Scotland, and the fund has been designed to provide discrete

:00:13. > :00:18.funding to one of projects. Although, after the announcement

:00:19. > :00:23.last year of ?600,000 of funding over three years, they will now

:00:24. > :00:30.accept applications for two and three year projects. It is also

:00:31. > :00:33.worth noting that standard life, one of our bigger employers in

:00:34. > :00:39.Edinburgh, has also contributed ?240,000 to fund.

:00:40. > :00:44.The Scottish Government set out its ambitious agenda for the future in

:00:45. > :00:48.the report renewing our commitments in February last year with the goal

:00:49. > :00:54.of making Scotland the destination of choice for service leavers. On

:00:55. > :00:58.health care alone the Scottish Government has put in considerable

:00:59. > :01:01.work since last year's report on the covenant to improve services for

:01:02. > :01:06.current and former service personnel. For example, in

:01:07. > :01:14.partnership with NHS Scotland, the Scottish Government has provided

:01:15. > :01:16.?1.2 million in 2016-17 to fund specialist mental health services

:01:17. > :01:21.for veterans and continues to fund and roll out a network of veteran

:01:22. > :01:28.first point Centre across Scotland so any veteran with any

:01:29. > :01:32.difficulties, it is not confined to any one area. The Scottish

:01:33. > :01:38.Government also provide priority access to low-cost housing through

:01:39. > :01:42.the low-cost initiative for first-time buyers. They have

:01:43. > :01:47.priority. And it also provides schemes to help with deposits for

:01:48. > :01:52.private renters. In addition the Scottish Government has awarded ?1.3

:01:53. > :01:58.million of grant funding to the Scottish veterans garden city

:01:59. > :02:02.Association, another mouthful, to build new homes, 25 of which are now

:02:03. > :02:09.complete across six local authority areas to support impaired former

:02:10. > :02:14.service personnel. I'm delighted to tell the chamber that I passed ten

:02:15. > :02:21.of these new homes every time I visit my local constituency office

:02:22. > :02:25.in Motherwell and Wishaw. In education, the Scottish Government

:02:26. > :02:32.support applications to the education support fund and

:02:33. > :02:38.encourages veterans and personnel to grasp the opportunities which the

:02:39. > :02:40.fund can give them and as a former further education lecturer myself I

:02:41. > :02:46.have had practical experience of teaching service personnel, mainly

:02:47. > :02:50.those who were still serving but who were committed to leaving the forces

:02:51. > :02:56.and preparing for civilian life. I have to say I found them all to be

:02:57. > :02:59.both committed and diligent. In Scotland the most obvious and

:03:00. > :03:04.far-reaching differences bound by service personnel leaving the

:03:05. > :03:08.services concerned the provision of public services, most of which I

:03:09. > :03:13.been devolved to discover that government and are now delivered by

:03:14. > :03:16.local authorities and NHS Scotland. It is almost inevitable that

:03:17. > :03:22.everyone leaving the military in Scotland will need to engage with

:03:23. > :03:24.these organisations as part of their personal transition process, whether

:03:25. > :03:30.about health, housing, education or employment. I think my honourable

:03:31. > :03:35.friend for giving way and she is making a fantastic speech. I

:03:36. > :03:41.recently visited a constituent who eat a lot for veterans and is quite

:03:42. > :03:46.soon rowing solo from Portugal to French Guyana in aid of veterans but

:03:47. > :03:52.when he left the Royal Navy he experienced quite severe mental

:03:53. > :03:55.challenges and has very recently been diagnosed with Asperger's

:03:56. > :03:59.syndrome. Would she agreed with me that the Armed Forces covenant and

:04:00. > :04:06.the work she has mentioned today will... I'm sorry, the number of

:04:07. > :04:13.members who want to speak, I have to impose a limit of six minutes. That

:04:14. > :04:18.was a very long intervention but we are pressed for time but can I let

:04:19. > :04:23.the honourable lady also know there will be a speed limit imposed after

:04:24. > :04:30.she finishes so if she could come to the conclusion I would be grateful.

:04:31. > :04:34.I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and appreciate the work

:04:35. > :04:40.that his constituent is doing. I should also add at this point, an

:04:41. > :04:44.unfortunate few former service personnel to actually come in

:04:45. > :04:48.contact with the Scottish criminal justice system which is also

:04:49. > :04:51.different. What may not be immediately apparent to service

:04:52. > :04:56.leavers is the different approach to government in Scotland, which

:04:57. > :05:00.agencies are responsible at delivering public services and what

:05:01. > :05:03.they can expect in the way of support. Beyond these devolved

:05:04. > :05:08.public services it must also be remembered that Scotland also has

:05:09. > :05:14.several other characteristics that provide a different context for

:05:15. > :05:17.service leavers. One of these, perhaps the most important, maybe

:05:18. > :05:29.the distinct nature of the third sector that provide vital support to

:05:30. > :05:33.the ex-service community. We are also lucky in the Scotland have a

:05:34. > :05:37.growing network of veterans champions across all sectors who are

:05:38. > :05:42.dedicated to reinforcing the values of the Armed Forces covenant and

:05:43. > :05:45.private sector that is starting to see the benefits of recruiting

:05:46. > :05:52.service personnel and their partners. I was especially struck by

:05:53. > :05:56.the Scottish veterans commissioners references in his third report, the

:05:57. > :06:00.veterans community employability skills and training, published in

:06:01. > :06:04.November last year, in which he described how he met to students at

:06:05. > :06:10.Glasgow Caledonian University who had previously served in the

:06:11. > :06:12.military. They were early service leavers who can face additional

:06:13. > :06:18.stresses on returning to civilian life. Both were inspiring characters

:06:19. > :06:23.but one in particular left a lasting impression as he described the

:06:24. > :06:28.challenges he faced during a short and troubled spell in the army and a

:06:29. > :06:34.difficult transition into civilian life. This student subsequently

:06:35. > :06:40.received vital support from the statutory sector, charities and the

:06:41. > :06:43.academic community. Order. When I said I hoped she was reaching a

:06:44. > :06:48.conclusion, every minute she takes is coming of subsequent members so

:06:49. > :06:50.the speed limit will add to be six minutes but is rapidly coming down

:06:51. > :06:57.unless she can conclude. Marion Fellows. I apologise, Madam Deputy

:06:58. > :07:03.Speaker, I got carried away in a enthusiasm. Can I also say that we

:07:04. > :07:09.in Scotland to try very hard to support personnel and veterans with

:07:10. > :07:12.the devolved services which we run also Scottish veterans employment

:07:13. > :07:20.and training services absolutely deserve a mention. They cover a wide

:07:21. > :07:22.variety of public and private and charitable institutions, helping

:07:23. > :07:26.people who have left the military with employment. I also have

:07:27. > :07:32.first-hand experience of Motherwell and Wishaw CAV who provide through

:07:33. > :07:40.the Asab programme help for people in my area. It seems to me that we

:07:41. > :07:45.all must have a part to play in improving the lives of serving

:07:46. > :07:50.personnel and veterans across the UK in order to recognise the valuable

:07:51. > :07:56.role they play and have played in the defence of our citizens. Can I

:07:57. > :08:01.just say that Scotland is well versed in partnership working and

:08:02. > :08:04.this is a well used route to help veterans in Scotland and I commend

:08:05. > :08:11.it to the chamber. Doctor Andrew Morrison. It's a great pleasure to

:08:12. > :08:14.follow the honourable lady and can I congratulate my honourable friend

:08:15. > :08:18.from Berwick-upon-Tweed for bringing forward this debate and the manner

:08:19. > :08:23.in which she has presented it, her work as a great credit, particularly

:08:24. > :08:29.in relation to the PAC. I also thank the member for North Wiltshire for

:08:30. > :08:35.giving us a wonderful plug and promoting my book, available from

:08:36. > :08:38.all good book-sellers! And in a similar spirit can I thank him for

:08:39. > :08:42.his hard work on the Armed Forces Parliamentary scheme which he has

:08:43. > :08:48.rejuvenated, giving it a new lease of life and great job and is

:08:49. > :08:51.chairman of the all-party group. The government seems to have been around

:08:52. > :08:59.for a long time because semantically it has biblical or mid-17th century

:09:00. > :09:05.connotations but the truth is it was only really invented in the year

:09:06. > :09:08.2000 in a staff paper. In 2007, the then Leader of the Opposition

:09:09. > :09:12.decided it was a good idea to create a military covenant commission and

:09:13. > :09:15.appointed Frederick Forsyth as the chairman and people like Simon

:09:16. > :09:20.Weston served with great listings and on that commission and it

:09:21. > :09:22.informed the thinking of the then opposition and subsequently

:09:23. > :09:28.government and resulted in the inclusion of the military covenant

:09:29. > :09:34.in the subsequent 2011 Armed Forces act and that pretty much brings us

:09:35. > :09:37.to where we are today. I think this report contains some great news and

:09:38. > :09:40.I would like to give credit to the government for its hard work and

:09:41. > :09:44.commitment and particular to honourable and gallant friend the

:09:45. > :09:47.Minister who approaches this work with dedication and enthusiasm and I

:09:48. > :09:53.very much thank him for that. There are a lot of positive things in

:09:54. > :09:57.this. I was particularly taken with the 73,000 pupils who benefit from

:09:58. > :10:01.the pupil premium which I feel particularly strongly about in my

:10:02. > :10:07.own constituency since many of my younger constituents benefit from

:10:08. > :10:11.it. 9000 personnel accessing the forces helped by witches have a real

:10:12. > :10:19.impact, it is an innovation and entirely compatible with the modern

:10:20. > :10:31.way of living and it has much to commend it -- forces help to buy. I

:10:32. > :10:36.could see the Minister listening attentively as he made his remarks

:10:37. > :10:39.and I'm sure he will reflect on the insightful points that my honourable

:10:40. > :10:45.friend made. Having been ever so nice about the government I would

:10:46. > :10:49.like to perhaps reduce my diminishing prospects of preferment

:10:50. > :10:54.by pointing out that we have had some fairly bad news recently in

:10:55. > :10:58.relation to the recruitment and retention figures for both regulars

:10:59. > :11:02.and reserves them and I'm particularly worried about the Army.

:11:03. > :11:08.These are really very bad and I think of all the surveys we do it is

:11:09. > :11:19.this one that matters most because people are not daft, they picked up

:11:20. > :11:22.what is going on around them and they vote with their feet. We are at

:11:23. > :11:25.a time of fairly robust employment and people have other options and we

:11:26. > :11:27.have to work twice as hard to keep people and much more importantly

:11:28. > :11:30.retain them. One of the things we have to get right is the means by

:11:31. > :11:32.which people are recruited into both the reserves and regulars which at

:11:33. > :11:37.the moment is taking far too long. He's absolutely right and people

:11:38. > :11:42.simply walk. They don't give a reason, they just get fed up and go

:11:43. > :11:45.and they will not be reflected in any particular statistic, it is just

:11:46. > :11:48.that they are a wasted asset and particularly for young men and women

:11:49. > :11:52.who are considering joining the reserve forces, I think a lot of

:11:53. > :11:58.them simply go and do something else. Of course the figures would

:11:59. > :12:04.have been even worse had we not changed the way in which we count

:12:05. > :12:07.people. We have now included phase two trainees in our training

:12:08. > :12:14.strength and the logic behind that is perfectly sound in that phase two

:12:15. > :12:16.trainees can be used in the UK to do all sorts of exciting things to do

:12:17. > :12:21.with resilient and the rest of it but nevertheless one is left as a

:12:22. > :12:25.cynical politician with the sense that this is in fact improving

:12:26. > :12:31.figures. We of course had to compare like with like and we can do that --

:12:32. > :12:35.if we can do that, we end up in an even more unhappy place. I have been

:12:36. > :12:39.reminded that we are talking about phase one trainees, people who have

:12:40. > :12:45.completed phase one and not yet embarked on phase two or completed

:12:46. > :12:48.it. The new employment model and contained within that service

:12:49. > :12:52.families accommodation, the recommendations for that, and the

:12:53. > :12:56.future accommodation model has been discussed at length and in the time

:12:57. > :13:00.available I don't have time to expand but I've would say that I

:13:01. > :13:03.entirely agree with some of the concerns that my honourable friend

:13:04. > :13:08.has in this respect. What is being proposed is exciting and

:13:09. > :13:12.forward-looking. It taps into the ways as I do it today and we have to

:13:13. > :13:17.do that in tried to work out how to do the covenant in the future. It

:13:18. > :13:20.seems this is going to disadvantaged people. This is going to remove

:13:21. > :13:25.something very valuable in service life and we have the Big Apple about

:13:26. > :13:27.that. I'm concerned about mental health -- we have to be careful

:13:28. > :13:39.about that. What I missed in the recent report

:13:40. > :13:43.was the level of alcohol abuse in the Armed Forces. Some would say it

:13:44. > :13:47.is up to the individual that I would say that the culture in our Armed

:13:48. > :13:51.Forces and I have seen it for myself over many years, is one of

:13:52. > :13:55.encouraging the abuse of alcohol and I think that the covenant we have a

:13:56. > :14:02.duty to ensure that we deal with this and at the moment I fear we're

:14:03. > :14:05.not. 65% of military are at what is called at higher risk of what excess

:14:06. > :14:14.drinking. I thank him for giving way. I speak as someone who is very

:14:15. > :14:22.proud to be the wife of an Armed Forces veteran. Alcohol difficulties

:14:23. > :14:25.in the Army think also reflect mental health issues that people

:14:26. > :14:30.face and often alcohol it is a present for underlying mental health

:14:31. > :14:33.issues. Would he agree? She is absolutely right but we have the

:14:34. > :14:37.culture in the Armed Forces which encourages the use of alcohol,

:14:38. > :14:42.possibly with some benefits, but if we have that -- accept that we have

:14:43. > :14:48.a duty of get people to ensure we dreaded tackle with it and deal with

:14:49. > :14:52.it. We were told we would have an alcohol working group and that would

:14:53. > :14:56.report shortly. It'll be interesting to hear from the minister where we

:14:57. > :15:06.are that group. I where we can have the report of that body and the Axel

:15:07. > :15:09.Pons arising from it. I suspect that this will be discussed by all my

:15:10. > :15:13.honourable friend at length in a moment but I would also like to

:15:14. > :15:17.weigh in because it has already been mentioned by Mike might honourable

:15:18. > :15:23.friend the member for Lagan Valley and I agree with his remarks.

:15:24. > :15:32.I am deeply concerned, wrote to the Prime Minister in October and

:15:33. > :15:38.received the satirists -- received a satisfactory response. She said, I

:15:39. > :15:41.am pleased to note... Had we done so several years ago, we would not be

:15:42. > :15:47.running into some of the difficulties are alluded to this

:15:48. > :15:51.afternoon. The Iraqi historical allegations team must conclude it

:15:52. > :15:54.work by the end of 2019 and I am pleased that the Government has

:15:55. > :15:58.committed to making sure that happens so far as it is able to do

:15:59. > :16:03.so. I am very pleased that the Government will be giving support to

:16:04. > :16:08.those veterans who find themselves having their collar felt. It's

:16:09. > :16:15.entirely appropriate we should do that. Can I ask the minister whether

:16:16. > :16:18.that will also apply to those Northern Ireland veterans who have

:16:19. > :16:22.been issued with letters from the Ministry of Defence inviting them to

:16:23. > :16:26.unburden themselves. Many of these gentlemen are in their 60s and 70s,

:16:27. > :16:30.a travel experience for them, this, and my advice would be, if you

:16:31. > :16:34.receive one of these, you should seek the advice of a solicitor. It

:16:35. > :16:39.would be nice to know that the MoD will agree with that advice, and

:16:40. > :16:46.that it will undertake to fund it. Finally, I would like to give my

:16:47. > :16:51.observations on accommodation in relation to career. My sense is that

:16:52. > :16:56.things have improved in recent months. As someone who represents a

:16:57. > :17:02.garrison town, I get correspondence on this regularly from my military

:17:03. > :17:12.constituents, and it has tailed off recently. However, there is no

:17:13. > :17:16.denying the public accounts committee's excellent work. It is

:17:17. > :17:18.right that the department is considering terminating the

:17:19. > :17:23.contract. Those are strong words from a highly respected committee of

:17:24. > :17:27.this House, and I would be interested to hear from the Minister

:17:28. > :17:31.of what he is doing to rein in the worst excesses of a company that

:17:32. > :17:42.frankly has let the men and women of our Armed Forces and their families

:17:43. > :17:44.down. Can I congratulate the honourable member for

:17:45. > :17:52.Berwick-upon-Tweed for bringing this debate to the floor of the House,

:17:53. > :17:55.and for showing their commitment to the Armed Forces. The Armed Forces

:17:56. > :18:01.must be rooted in and reflect society, the one that they serve and

:18:02. > :18:16.defend, and I commend the honourable member for Canterbury for making the

:18:17. > :18:19.point. In terms of their own personal service life, they have

:18:20. > :18:25.similar problems to the rest of society. But we must also recognise

:18:26. > :18:29.that veterans face unique challenges in the domestic lives. There have

:18:30. > :18:33.been issues I have raced that the Minister will be aware of in terms

:18:34. > :18:37.of children, veterans and carers, and in relation to pre-deployment as

:18:38. > :18:43.well as the length of deployment as well. However, this does not mean

:18:44. > :18:47.that challenges do not remain. The report and the general debate, I am

:18:48. > :18:53.astonished to see the difficulties faced by veterans in receiving

:18:54. > :18:57.medical care. Mother has been imprudent, work remains to be done

:18:58. > :19:03.across the whole UK, for example, ensuring better transition into

:19:04. > :19:07.civilian life, and ensuring that services for GPs are able to share

:19:08. > :19:09.their expertise across the NHS, something we have discussed several

:19:10. > :19:27.times. A whole range of partners get round

:19:28. > :19:31.the table and don't see any impact on the service life being discussed.

:19:32. > :19:36.In housing, we see problems with Marillion and Amy in providing

:19:37. > :19:42.service accommodation which lives up to the understandably high standards

:19:43. > :19:46.of the MoD. It has been drawing the eye of the National Audit Office and

:19:47. > :19:51.the Public Accounts Committee, which indicates there remains much work to

:19:52. > :19:55.be done in delivering an improvement in the lived experience of families

:19:56. > :19:59.and providing value for public money at it most because the public

:20:00. > :20:02.companies. I wonder if maybe the future accommodation model should

:20:03. > :20:06.reflect some element and learn from some element of the Scottish housing

:20:07. > :20:10.standard for which the Ministry of Defence could at least reflect on in

:20:11. > :20:16.terms of bringing up a basic standard. The MoD in Scotland is

:20:17. > :20:21.exempt from the National housing standard which every landlord had to

:20:22. > :20:24.me by 2015. That brings me to the Right Honourable member for

:20:25. > :20:31.Aldershot, who mentions social housing. Maybe the best way of

:20:32. > :20:36.giving people access to it is not only to build more of it, but to

:20:37. > :20:40.stop selling it. This week's combat stress report also highlights of the

:20:41. > :20:44.more fundamental problems faced by veterans and underlines the fact

:20:45. > :20:49.that there remains much work to be done. The opportunities grasped by

:20:50. > :20:52.many enlisted in the Armed Forces are, unfortunately, not shared by

:20:53. > :20:57.nearly enough people. Those of us who an interest in veterans affairs

:20:58. > :21:01.will not be satisfied until this attainment gap is closed. I agree

:21:02. > :21:04.with the honourable member for Berwick-upon-Tweed about the

:21:05. > :21:10.corporate... In terms of the corporate covenant. We are seeing

:21:11. > :21:13.that through small and medium-sized businesses in my own constituency,

:21:14. > :21:20.where I attended an event last week in which the Chamber of Commerce

:21:21. > :21:23.covering the whole county of Dumbartonshire led the charge to get

:21:24. > :21:28.businesses involved in that corporate approach. Indeed, it is

:21:29. > :21:31.one of my great hopes that the idea of the covenant can become embedded

:21:32. > :21:35.in the culture of the Armed Forces. There should be no doubt that the

:21:36. > :21:40.services rendered by those who join must be returned many times by not

:21:41. > :21:47.just as Government backed by those in the devolved assemblies. This is

:21:48. > :21:50.something I welcome, and the Scottish Government's commitment has

:21:51. > :21:58.already been mentioned. Last year, they set up their agenda for

:21:59. > :22:00.veterans, renewing our commitment to making Scotland the go to

:22:01. > :22:06.destination for those who read the services. I welcome to the report

:22:07. > :22:12.that like I give my welcome to the report, and I am satisfied that the

:22:13. > :22:16.work is focused on giving people the support and opportunities they

:22:17. > :22:21.deserve. I know from my own family experience, who have been on the

:22:22. > :22:24.front line, the unique challenges faced by those serving in the Armed

:22:25. > :22:30.Forces but also by their families. I have say they deserve our respect,

:22:31. > :22:34.thanks and ongoing support. In doing so, I do not forget that the work

:22:35. > :22:38.that we in this house and those in the ministry must still do to ensure

:22:39. > :22:48.that the support they receive is more than we are giving at the

:22:49. > :22:51.moment. First, I would like to congratulate my honourable friend

:22:52. > :22:56.from Berwick-upon-Tweed for securing this fantastic debate today. I

:22:57. > :22:59.remember many great days and cold nights in the constituency on

:23:00. > :23:04.training exercises, fond memories most of the time, and I would like

:23:05. > :23:08.to declare that my youngest son serves in the British Army, also a

:23:09. > :23:12.gunner. The covenant has had a positive impact, not only in

:23:13. > :23:17.redefining the relationship between our civilian population, veterans

:23:18. > :23:22.and the Armed Forces, but by enshrining it in law it has provided

:23:23. > :23:26.our Armed Forces, both past and present, with a tangible agreement,

:23:27. > :23:31.almost a contract, between the people who serve, politicians who

:23:32. > :23:36.harm's way, and the rest of the harm's way, and the rest of the

:23:37. > :23:40.population who benefit from the sacrifices of our Armed Forces. I

:23:41. > :23:45.served on the Armed Forces Bill committee, not only as a member of

:23:46. > :23:51.Parliament who represents a constituency with a huge MoD and

:23:52. > :23:54.military manufacturing capacity, but also as vice president of my Royal

:23:55. > :23:59.British Legion branch, and as a veteran myself. I have put lots of

:24:00. > :24:02.pressure on the local councils Bristol and South Gloucestershire to

:24:03. > :24:06.sign the community covenant, and I keep up the pressure on the

:24:07. > :24:13.implementation is ongoing. Of course... From one Royal British

:24:14. > :24:19.Legion vice president of another, I take the point he makes that every

:24:20. > :24:27.branch of the British Legion have a welfare officer who is very often

:24:28. > :24:32.the conduit between recently discharged servicemen and women and

:24:33. > :24:35.housing providers. Would he not agree that the Government could do

:24:36. > :24:43.more in the pre-discharge period to let service men and women let the

:24:44. > :24:47.leg-mac know the advantages of the Royal British Legion which can do so

:24:48. > :24:58.much for them, and that sadly those services are not often taken up.

:24:59. > :25:02.We are linking in with the Royal British Legion and charities to make

:25:03. > :25:09.them better aware of what we can do in our communities. I thank the

:25:10. > :25:12.honourable member for giving way. Does he support the Royal British

:25:13. > :25:16.Legion's count them in campaign which calls on the next census to

:25:17. > :25:19.capture data on the Armed Forces community? That would help improve

:25:20. > :25:23.the allocation of resources and services that this community and is

:25:24. > :25:27.something I think the Government should support for the future. I

:25:28. > :25:33.thank him for his intervention. Of course, I will support that. It is

:25:34. > :25:37.incumbent on all of us to link up with local charities where we can to

:25:38. > :25:42.help our veterans and their loved ones and families and dependents. I

:25:43. > :25:48.have also worked with a military charity which does work on housing,

:25:49. > :25:59.and I helped secure considerable funding to help invest in veterans

:26:00. > :26:04.accommodation. We must never forget the huge debt of gratitude we owe

:26:05. > :26:09.them, both currently serving, veterans and their families. Freedom

:26:10. > :26:12.isn't free. We don't live in a free country by accident, and most of us

:26:13. > :26:17.fully appreciate and understand that. When members of the Armed

:26:18. > :26:21.Forces swear an oath of allegiance to the crime, they enter into a

:26:22. > :26:28.covenant with society to protect and serve us all. The covenant has

:26:29. > :26:31.recently seemed to be one-sided. The Secretary of State said we have a

:26:32. > :26:39.duty across society to recognise this dedication and sacrifice when

:26:40. > :26:44.making sure that the services we provide treat our veterans and their

:26:45. > :26:46.families fairly and ensure that they suffer no disadvantages by

:26:47. > :26:51.comparison to the rest of society as a result of their service. As other

:26:52. > :26:57.members have alluded to, there is at least one aspect where service

:26:58. > :27:00.personnel are being disadvantaged. I am talking about the politically

:27:01. > :27:06.motivated witchhunt which is taking place against four former service

:27:07. > :27:11.personnel who worked in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. The

:27:12. > :27:14.Secretary of State for Northern Ireland wrote in his article in the

:27:15. > :27:20.Telegraph that there is an imbalance that has led to a disproportionate

:27:21. > :27:26.focus on enquiries concerning former soldiers. That is a clear example of

:27:27. > :27:34.people being disadvantaged by their service. I was also interested to

:27:35. > :27:37.read that in line with the Government's commitment to the Armed

:27:38. > :27:43.Forces Covenant, in order to stop personnel pursuing lengthy claims in

:27:44. > :27:49.the court, the Government plans to provide better compensation for

:27:50. > :27:54.death and injury in combat. As part of this reform, the Government

:27:55. > :27:57.intends to clarify in primary legislation the long-standing common

:27:58. > :28:00.law practice that the Government is not liable for damages as a result

:28:01. > :28:11.of injuries or death sustained in combat. The point I would make is,

:28:12. > :28:14.the Government is able to act to protect their own interests with

:28:15. > :28:18.primary legislation, but in my opinion what is happening to the

:28:19. > :28:26.Northern Ireland veterans is also turning this into a judicial issue.

:28:27. > :28:31.The director of the Public prosecution service, a former lawyer

:28:32. > :28:39.Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams, is seeking to prosecute two,

:28:40. > :28:44.veterans. The soldiers were investigated fully at the time, and

:28:45. > :28:48.now that a length of time has passed, there is a lack of forensic

:28:49. > :28:57.evidence and credible eyewitness testimony, which make the leg-mac

:28:58. > :29:00.would make the trial untenable. We need a statute of limitations on all

:29:01. > :29:04.sides, which would help draw a line under the terrible events of the

:29:05. > :29:10.troubles and bring the communities together, and there would be no

:29:11. > :29:29.further retrospective public over -- retrospective prosecutions of our

:29:30. > :29:37.personnel. Innocent, innocent. The number of people that make of the

:29:38. > :29:42.people who served in the police and armed services in Northern Ireland,

:29:43. > :29:44.almost a third lost their lives. We need to protect all our veterans

:29:45. > :29:50.have volunteered to put themselves in harm's way. The Government has

:29:51. > :29:57.let them down so badly. No one is suggesting that military justice and

:29:58. > :30:00.due process should not apply. We have very strict rules of

:30:01. > :30:06.engagement, and we are a great force for good in the world. Service

:30:07. > :30:10.personnel who have been judged to carry out their duty in difficult

:30:11. > :30:14.circumstances at risk to themselves, their actions should not be

:30:15. > :30:17.second-guessed years later for the sake of political expediency, a form

:30:18. > :30:22.of appeasement, and the weakness of some of our politicians.

:30:23. > :30:28.This isn't just about dealing with the past, is about upholding the

:30:29. > :30:31.covenant, our country's honour, the honour of those serving today and

:30:32. > :30:34.those thinking of enlisting that having that reassurance that

:30:35. > :30:38.whatever awful situation we send them into it will not result 30 or

:30:39. > :30:44.40 years down the line with lives being ruined by retrospective,

:30:45. > :30:49.politically motivated prosecutions. We are going to have to drop down to

:30:50. > :30:51.five minutes from now. The great pleasure to speak today and the

:30:52. > :30:56.great pleasure to follow the honourable member for Calton Hill

:30:57. > :31:02.Bradley and I agreed very much with his sentiments that we must start

:31:03. > :31:08.looking after our armed services, particularly those who served on

:31:09. > :31:11.banner. The military covenant is the most fantastic document and a great

:31:12. > :31:18.idea put in place and I congratulate all involved in trying to put it

:31:19. > :31:22.into place. I apologised today for speaking mainly on Northern Irish

:31:23. > :31:25.issues but I would like to congratulate first the minister who

:31:26. > :31:28.has often given me a chance to speak as we go through issues and was

:31:29. > :31:32.going to come to Northern Ireland but had to delay because of our

:31:33. > :31:38.election. I particularly want to congratulate the honourable member

:31:39. > :31:41.for Berwick who has done a massive amount of work and came and visited

:31:42. > :31:48.Northern Ireland, met with some appalling victims to hear how they

:31:49. > :31:53.are stressed from combat and to listen to how things are in Northern

:31:54. > :31:57.Ireland and I welcome the fact in the covenant that it says we will

:31:58. > :32:01.look at the regions and learn from each other because that is a great

:32:02. > :32:06.deal to learn from Scotland and however one does this. I think it is

:32:07. > :32:11.right of me to concentrate on Northern Ireland because so much

:32:12. > :32:13.there doesn't work. I want to start with a story, something said to me

:32:14. > :32:18.years ago and has always made me think. Winston Churchill visited

:32:19. > :32:24.spitfire factory and a young engineer said, we look at every

:32:25. > :32:30.aircraft when it comes back, we see where more of the holes are and we

:32:31. > :32:32.arm them and make them stronger and Churchill said, you're looking at

:32:33. > :32:39.the Royal aircraft, you're looking at the ones that come back. -- the

:32:40. > :32:42.wrong aircraft. We must all remember to look outside the box, you have

:32:43. > :32:48.the information put in front of you come and it comes to 84%, that's

:32:49. > :32:51.what I'm linking to, to make sure we look outside the box to make sure

:32:52. > :32:58.we're looking at what information will not seeing. Within that there

:32:59. > :33:00.is a great deal we can learn. In Northern Ireland we struggle because

:33:01. > :33:06.the structure is not in place properly. We have already heard from

:33:07. > :33:09.the gallant colleague from Lagan Valley of the difficulties in

:33:10. > :33:13.Northern Ireland. We needed someone on that committee and we now have

:33:14. > :33:18.somebody on the reference committee having worked together but we need a

:33:19. > :33:21.commissioner or champion, somebody who is there, not political, who can

:33:22. > :33:26.work through all sides of our political site in Northern Ireland,

:33:27. > :33:29.bringing together because one side in Northern Ireland very much cease

:33:30. > :33:34.all military and security forces as from the Imperial petition site and

:33:35. > :33:38.we have to show them the great work that has been done in the

:33:39. > :33:42.Mediterranean, picking up those trying to flee Africa, those that

:33:43. > :33:49.dealt with Ebola, there is a mass of great were going on to show what our

:33:50. > :33:53.armed services are doing. We have 60,000 or so who sues -- served in

:33:54. > :33:59.the UDR and the security forces in Northern Ireland and another story,

:34:00. > :34:02.and valuing a painting in Dungannon there was a photograph of the person

:34:03. > :34:07.with his colleagues in military uniform went in and I said, you are

:34:08. > :34:12.brave to have that as you go inside the door. He took me into the car

:34:13. > :34:19.park and went, that house, that house, that house, about 20 houses,

:34:20. > :34:24.every single one had all the males shot by the IRA. That is the world

:34:25. > :34:28.they were living in and that is why we have mental difficulties. Those

:34:29. > :34:31.people never got a break. They did their duty and went back to work and

:34:32. > :34:35.they lived within that threat all the time. That is why I pushed so

:34:36. > :34:42.hard to make sure we look after everyone. We need funding to help

:34:43. > :34:47.the RFC eight be able to look after everyone, we need to sort out

:34:48. > :34:52.exactly who is in charge in delivering -- RFCA. It is not the

:34:53. > :34:57.regular forces, Rifkind does most of it and he need resources. We have

:34:58. > :35:02.councils but they don't have the support. We have champions in every

:35:03. > :35:05.council but our council -- councils don't do housing and education, it

:35:06. > :35:08.is done in Stormont and it is not being delivered because we have

:35:09. > :35:13.heard that the government is not seen as being in place in Northern

:35:14. > :35:17.Ireland. If you think that, we had 197 shot in the UDR, that is just

:35:18. > :35:21.one section. We have to find a way of coping everybody can it needs

:35:22. > :35:25.someone to really grit their teeth and look at how you make it work,

:35:26. > :35:31.look outside the box, and I think we can get there. If I can finally

:35:32. > :35:34.agree with everyone, we cannot have this witchhunt that is going on will

:35:35. > :35:44.I see myself as about as balanced as can be but it is so biased,... The

:35:45. > :35:46.honourable gentleman and I both served on the Northern Ireland

:35:47. > :35:49.committee and we had an enquiry into the implementation of the military

:35:50. > :35:52.covenant in Northern Ireland so perhaps it is time for us to think

:35:53. > :35:57.about another inquiry to have an update on the work done before then?

:35:58. > :36:01.I very much agree and I think we should have an update and we should

:36:02. > :36:04.be looking at it but we have got to explore and find a way of drawing a

:36:05. > :36:09.line, if it is a statute of limitations we have to find some way

:36:10. > :36:13.in Northern Ireland of moving on. That means part of it will be

:36:14. > :36:18.looking after our armed services and that is not just the army and Navy

:36:19. > :36:22.and air force, it is the TfL Eikrem the RUC, the prison officers and a

:36:23. > :36:32.whole mass of people -- the PS and I. -- PSNI. That ensure we keep the

:36:33. > :36:42.peace. The main point of the armed force

:36:43. > :36:48.covenant is to make sure we have good morale in the Armed Forces.

:36:49. > :36:54.Maintenance of morale is the second most important principle of war,

:36:55. > :37:01.described, I quote, the positive state of mind derived from inspired

:37:02. > :37:05.political and military leadership, a shared sense of purpose and values,

:37:06. > :37:12.well-being, perceptions of worth and group cohesion. It is thus at the

:37:13. > :37:21.heart of the Armed Forces covenant. Napoleon called morale the sacred

:37:22. > :37:25.flame. He went further, saying morale is to the physical as three

:37:26. > :37:32.is too one. When I was an instructor at Sandhurst 1979 to 1980 when

:37:33. > :37:39.people in this chamber were not even born, I didn't really understand

:37:40. > :37:42.that. They are waving at me! I didn't really understand it, I

:37:43. > :37:46.taught it but didn't understand it and what it meant was that if you

:37:47. > :37:49.have high morale, you get more forces committed the enemy think you

:37:50. > :37:57.have more and I didn't understand that until I went to Bosnia. Very

:37:58. > :38:01.briefly, as one who was around in 1979, can I say that I hate to

:38:02. > :38:04.disagree with the honourable gentleman that I don't think the

:38:05. > :38:09.prime purpose of the covenant is to raise the morale of the troops, it

:38:10. > :38:13.is to repay a debt of honour that the oath to service men and women, a

:38:14. > :38:17.debt of honour being repaid by the civilian society, not just about

:38:18. > :38:24.morale, surely? I can accept that point and I graciously accept it.

:38:25. > :38:29.When I went to Bosnia I learned this lesson because the opponents there,

:38:30. > :38:35.three main opponents, always came to me and said, how many men do you

:38:36. > :38:43.have under your command, some women, and I would say lots. How many do

:38:44. > :38:52.you think? They would say, between three and 4000. And I had 800. Those

:38:53. > :39:02.men and women were acting like that because of their morale. We have the

:39:03. > :39:09.best Armed Forces in the world because of high morale, training, we

:39:10. > :39:13.give them everything we can, but we do have the best Armed Forces in the

:39:14. > :39:19.world and the Armed Forces covenant is going to make them even better

:39:20. > :39:23.and I give way. Would my honourable and gallant friend agree with me

:39:24. > :39:28.that it is the confidence that when they come back into civilian life

:39:29. > :39:30.that they will be protected, nurtured and their sacrifice

:39:31. > :39:36.honoured that underpins the strong morale in the fighting elements of

:39:37. > :39:43.the Armed Forces? I thank the honourable, gallant friend of mine

:39:44. > :39:51.Fort McMurray good intervention. -- for making. I believe the Armed

:39:52. > :39:57.Forces covenant will require constant care and attention. It's a

:39:58. > :40:01.responsive document and it must interact with what is happening at

:40:02. > :40:07.the time and hopefully it'll even more effective. Finally, speaking

:40:08. > :40:14.very shortly I want to complain to the minister who is sitting there

:40:15. > :40:21.complacently and I want to complain because it is not one regular unit

:40:22. > :40:24.of the air force, the Navy or the army in my constituency of Beckenham

:40:25. > :40:33.and that is disgraceful, sort it out! Not quite sure how to follow

:40:34. > :40:40.the honourable valent gentleman on that point however I will try. --

:40:41. > :40:45.gallant. It is a great privilege to speak in this debate on the

:40:46. > :40:49.covenant, not least because in October 2011 lap pool was the first

:40:50. > :40:53.town in the north-west to show its commitment to the Armed Forces by

:40:54. > :41:02.selling the community covenant -- Blackpool. I have a copy here and I

:41:03. > :41:06.want to pay tribute to the late Conservative councillor Jim

:41:07. > :41:10.Holdsworth who was instrumental in thinking this community covenant

:41:11. > :41:15.together with the town. Blackpool has a very strong relationship with

:41:16. > :41:19.the Armed Forces and every year, to tie in with national Armed Forces

:41:20. > :41:24.Day, and we had one of the first in the country, the town also has Armed

:41:25. > :41:28.Forces week which this year will be from the 19th until the 25th of June

:41:29. > :41:32.with a whole range of events and as far as I'm aware we are the only

:41:33. > :41:39.town that does a whole week. We have a very active council Armed Forces

:41:40. > :41:43.champion in councillor Chris Ryan who is responsible for spearheading

:41:44. > :41:47.plans to improve access to services and that action plan component of

:41:48. > :41:54.the Armed Forces community covenant for Blackpool. We also have our own

:41:55. > :41:59.arboretum and community Woodlands and Council Orion is setting up a

:42:00. > :42:03.friends group for that. I have been privileged as well to have a couple

:42:04. > :42:08.of Armed Forces roundtable event with members of the local Armed

:42:09. > :42:11.Forces community -- councillor Ryan. They include Sergeant Rick Clement

:42:12. > :42:17.who is somewhat of a Blackpool legend is eight double amputee from

:42:18. > :42:22.Afghanistan who has raised tens of thousands of pounds for military

:42:23. > :42:26.charities. And Colonel Johnny lighting and Steven Greenwood from

:42:27. > :42:34.the Blackpool sub Mariners. I want to pay tribute to the fantastic

:42:35. > :42:37.speech the honourable lady from Berwick-upon-Tweed made the

:42:38. > :42:39.beginning for bringing this to the attention of the house and I want to

:42:40. > :42:43.share what other people have said which is that I believe it should be

:42:44. > :42:49.a fixture in government time in the house every year. I time is limited

:42:50. > :42:58.so I want to focus on a couple of particular issues. One is the issue

:42:59. > :43:02.of the return to civilian life. At the Armed Forces roundtable this

:43:03. > :43:07.year, discussion about this was very strong because there were so many

:43:08. > :43:12.personnel leaving the Armed Forces at a younger age and having

:43:13. > :43:17.experienced dramatic circumstances in many cases but they are not

:43:18. > :43:22.always finding that the skills and qualifications they have received in

:43:23. > :43:29.the army are readily recognised in civvy street. If I can refer to the

:43:30. > :43:34.report itself this year, it says in this section on service education

:43:35. > :43:39.metrics, there continues to be low satisfaction with the training and

:43:40. > :43:43.education available in relation to gaining civilian accreditation and

:43:44. > :43:48.personal element and there statistics are quoted. I really do

:43:49. > :43:55.think and I urge the Minister to that very carefully at this issue

:43:56. > :43:58.and to liaise and talk with his colleagues in the Department for

:43:59. > :44:02.Education and I speak obviously as a local MP but also as the shadow

:44:03. > :44:07.skills and further education minister. I am very well aware of

:44:08. > :44:15.this lack of transferability which seems to me that we're not doing

:44:16. > :44:17.justice to our troops and armed services if they leave with

:44:18. > :44:23.qualifications which cannot easily be understood in civvy street. I

:44:24. > :44:31.will give an example from the roundtable this year. Lesley Jane

:44:32. > :44:35.halt from the Royal British Legion spoke about how a lot of employers

:44:36. > :44:42.were using automated software to scan CDs but pointed out this did

:44:43. > :44:45.not or is picked up all recognise skills or qualifications Rachel --

:44:46. > :44:51.relating to the forces -- scanning CVs. The government is making

:44:52. > :44:54.changes in the further education and skills situation with

:44:55. > :44:57.apprenticeships coming through and the new Institute for other bishops

:44:58. > :45:01.and everything that goes with it and I want to conclude with a plea from

:45:02. > :45:13.another person who attended that session. That was councillor Edward

:45:14. > :45:17.Nash filed and he had sent me a note which says that some thoughts on the

:45:18. > :45:23.covenant, it is still seen as increasingly London based. The fund

:45:24. > :45:30.for it, all bid now go to London. We used to have regional panels and

:45:31. > :45:35.could resuscitate them. What does the corporate covenant with business

:45:36. > :45:40.achieve? Who gets what out of it? I know that a great deal has been

:45:41. > :45:43.achieved but a great deal more, as referred needs to continue to be

:45:44. > :45:44.achieved and if the Minister would look at those issues it would be

:45:45. > :45:56.very useful. It is a pleasure to follow the

:45:57. > :46:01.honourable gentleman. Can I pay tribute to my colleague, the member

:46:02. > :46:10.for Berwick-upon-Tweed, for the work that she does with ex-service

:46:11. > :46:13.personnel. The history of my constituency's regiment is a

:46:14. > :46:16.reminder that the story of British liberty is inseparable from that of

:46:17. > :46:20.our military. It is an enormous privilege to represent the almost

:46:21. > :46:25.15,000 veterans, personnel and their families based around Catterick

:46:26. > :46:28.Garrison and RAF Leeming. But many years, despite their heroism, my

:46:29. > :46:33.constituents have too often found themselves at the back of the Cuba

:46:34. > :46:37.services. There will always be more we can do, but in housing, education

:46:38. > :46:39.and employment, I am proud to say that the Armed Forces Covenant and

:46:40. > :46:43.the work of this Government has moved us closer than ever before to

:46:44. > :46:47.ensuring that the world's finest Armed Forces are never penalised for

:46:48. > :46:52.their service. Let me begin with housing. Before the covenant's

:46:53. > :46:54.introduction, retiring service personnel in my constituency often

:46:55. > :46:59.found they did not meet the residency requirement for council

:47:00. > :47:03.housing. As a consequence of this Government's action, I am pleased to

:47:04. > :47:08.report that this is now largely a thing of the past, and I pay

:47:09. > :47:13.enormous tribute to the work of the Council in this regard. While

:47:14. > :47:18.military families are used to having their lives uprooted when orders of

:47:19. > :47:21.a new posting come in, they are too often also used to finding in

:47:22. > :47:27.adequate housing when they get there. In the most recent Armed

:47:28. > :47:30.Forces attitudes survey, only 29% of military families were satisfied

:47:31. > :47:35.with the quality of maintenance in service family accommodation.

:47:36. > :47:38.Failures to live up to standards set out the MoD have been mentioned

:47:39. > :47:42.before, and they are a betrayal of the taxpayer and of our Armed

:47:43. > :47:47.Forces. I very much welcome the action the Government has already

:47:48. > :47:51.taken in condemning that failure. Going forward, I am mindful that

:47:52. > :47:55.with the future accommodation model on the horizon, it will be of great

:47:56. > :48:02.comfort to my military constituents to know that the lessons from the

:48:03. > :48:08.housing providers' shortcomings will not be repeated, and I echo the

:48:09. > :48:15.comments of the member for Canterbury. Education, with frequent

:48:16. > :48:19.school changes and parents left to manage alone during tours of duty,

:48:20. > :48:22.the sacrifices made by members of our Armed Forces are often felt

:48:23. > :48:26.hardest by their children. The Government has taken real action by

:48:27. > :48:29.introducing the service pupil premium, funding that as we speak is

:48:30. > :48:35.helping schools across my constituency meet the unique needs

:48:36. > :48:41.of military children, and I would like to thank the Government for

:48:42. > :48:47.creating the education support one, and thanks to the hard work of the

:48:48. > :48:50.Council leader, this has been an enormous success, and I would urge

:48:51. > :48:56.the Government to maintain funding of this programme. My constituents

:48:57. > :49:01.well come plans to expand Catterick to a super Garrison, but can I urge

:49:02. > :49:03.the Minister to ensure that discussions begin as soon as

:49:04. > :49:05.possible with the council so that adequate school places are made

:49:06. > :49:12.available when these additional soldiers and families arrive. The

:49:13. > :49:17.final point I would like to raise is that of spousal employment. 50% of

:49:18. > :49:22.military personnel already mention the impact on their partner's career

:49:23. > :49:25.as making them more likely to lead the services come because the

:49:26. > :49:28.husbands and wives of Britain's service men and women represent a

:49:29. > :49:34.deep reservoir of talent that all too often goes untapped. That is not

:49:35. > :49:37.only a problem for families, it is a problem for our economy, which is

:49:38. > :49:42.missing out on some of our nation's most able and resourceful citizens.

:49:43. > :49:49.The work done by charities such as recruits for spouses are absolutely

:49:50. > :49:54.crucial in rectifying the situation. I very much hope that work continues

:49:55. > :50:00.in this area and that it will remain at the heart of our thinking about

:50:01. > :50:03.the Armed Forces Covenant. In conclusion, the soldiers, sailors

:50:04. > :50:07.and NN of North Yorkshire don't expect the path they have chosen to

:50:08. > :50:11.be easy. They want to know that when they do take on that burden, the

:50:12. > :50:15.Government will do what it can to make it just a little lighter. The

:50:16. > :50:19.annual covenant report makes it clear that we still have work to do.

:50:20. > :50:23.With six years of success behind us, I am equally clear that this is the

:50:24. > :50:31.Government that can make that a reality. I welcome very much the

:50:32. > :50:34.report, but also particularly the work of my honourable friend, the

:50:35. > :50:39.member for Berwick, who has done so much for the Armed Forces in this

:50:40. > :50:42.brief 18 months. It is extraordinary to think how much she has achieved

:50:43. > :50:48.already. We have heard much about the burden of service, and I think

:50:49. > :50:52.it might help to remind ourselves of the joy of it, because of course,

:50:53. > :50:55.the reason I and many of us join the Armed Forces is because it is the

:50:56. > :50:59.most extraordinary opportunity to serve one's country in the most in

:51:00. > :51:05.Alnwick and demanding environments. I can't express to this House the

:51:06. > :51:09.joy I had in conducting fighting patrols in Afghanistan and Iraq. It

:51:10. > :51:17.may sound absurd, but actually, to spend days with men, in my case, who

:51:18. > :51:20.were focused, like-minded, determine, in pursuit of a goal they

:51:21. > :51:27.knew to be right, the service of a country they knew to be honourable,

:51:28. > :51:32.and alongside men whom they knew to have integrity, what a rare

:51:33. > :51:35.experience that was. Not clouded by fears of mortgage or worried by the

:51:36. > :51:41.words of whips, but simply to be free to do exactly what was right.

:51:42. > :51:46.It was also hugely demanding because we were operating in very difficult

:51:47. > :51:55.circumstances, in heat, in dust, sleeping little, often in danger, at

:51:56. > :52:00.risk of either IEDs or direct action, and working alongside people

:52:01. > :52:05.from other nations. And I speak here not only of the Americans and we

:52:06. > :52:09.work very closely with, or Australians, Estonians, Danes and

:52:10. > :52:15.Czechs who were impressive and quirky in their own ways, but also

:52:16. > :52:18.of Afghans and Iraqis, men of great courage and integrity, literally put

:52:19. > :52:26.their lives on the line for us, and many of whom, sadly, did not live to

:52:27. > :52:30.tell the tale. But that experience, it was almost like a drug, it was so

:52:31. > :52:35.powerful. It is so electric to be challenged in everything you do,

:52:36. > :52:40.physically, mentally, morally, for such a period. It is so demanding,

:52:41. > :52:44.it is exhausting and exhilarating at the same time. So that is why this

:52:45. > :52:49.covenant matters. Because the challenge of coming back is much

:52:50. > :52:55.greater than the challenge of going simply from an institution to a free

:52:56. > :53:01.civilian life. It is almost like kicking a habit, because living like

:53:02. > :53:08.that, in an environment that is so all-consuming, so demanding but also

:53:09. > :53:13.so rewarding, gives you a purpose that very few other things can, even

:53:14. > :53:20.some of the things we're doing now, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will.

:53:21. > :53:27.Because of your military service and the operational tours you have

:53:28. > :53:37.done... I beg your pardon. Are you comfortable with the way we have

:53:38. > :53:42.treated locally employed civilians? I have but a few minutes, and I will

:53:43. > :53:45.not talk much about locally employed civilians except to say I am hugely

:53:46. > :53:49.pleased that this country has given refuge to a wonderful man who served

:53:50. > :53:55.as my interpreter for a brief period in Helmand province, a man who went

:53:56. > :54:01.through several explosions with me and who alongside me, managed to

:54:02. > :54:05.escape with our live from close calls than I think my parents would

:54:06. > :54:08.like to know about. I mention my parents for a specific reason. When

:54:09. > :54:18.I was having the exhilaration of combat, and the joy of camaraderie,

:54:19. > :54:24.my family, my then girlfriend, my wife, was left behind. For many of

:54:25. > :54:29.the folk whom I was serving with, their families were there, waiting

:54:30. > :54:33.anxiously, hoping that they wouldn't get a knock on the door. That,

:54:34. > :54:37.again, is where the covenant comes in, because of course, what my

:54:38. > :54:41.honourable friend from Canterbury is talking about when he talks about

:54:42. > :54:44.accommodation models, he is not only talking about where you live, but

:54:45. > :54:51.about the community that supports you. If you destroy the communities

:54:52. > :54:58.that support our Armed Forces in battle, those are the communities

:54:59. > :55:01.families live together and where families live together and where

:55:02. > :55:05.people understand the pressures that everyone is going through.

:55:06. > :55:10.Accommodation is not simply a need of a house and a brick, it is a

:55:11. > :55:20.family. It reinforces the families who also serve when they sit and

:55:21. > :55:24.wait. I thank my honourable and gallant friend for giving way. On

:55:25. > :55:28.support networks, does he agree with me that the Government and broader

:55:29. > :55:32.society need to be particularly aware of the pressures of people

:55:33. > :55:40.like him, who are members of the reserve forces, who do not have an

:55:41. > :55:43.automatic wraparound structure by the diverse and dispersed nature of

:55:44. > :55:48.their circumstances? He speaks absolutely correctly. He will know

:55:49. > :55:52.this only too well, having served himself and being a reservist. You

:55:53. > :55:55.will forgive me if I skip quickly onto a second aspect of the covenant

:55:56. > :56:00.that I am sorry to say was not mentioned in the report, and that is

:56:01. > :56:04.the law. We have heard mentioned the Northern Ireland cases, and we have

:56:05. > :56:10.touched on the Iraq historic allegations cases, and my honourable

:56:11. > :56:13.and gallant friend, the member for Plymouth, has done enormous amount

:56:14. > :56:17.of work on this and has been very impressive. Sadly, for family

:56:18. > :56:22.reasons, he can't be here today, but his work has demonstrated that I'm

:56:23. > :56:26.afraid our Government is not doing enough. We need to do more to

:56:27. > :56:31.protect those who have done the most us. What covenant should be about is

:56:32. > :56:35.to ensure that those who have served, who have risked all and

:56:36. > :56:39.given all, can come back safe in the knowledge that they are safe, and

:56:40. > :56:46.that they are not going to be pursued by charlatans and liars like

:56:47. > :56:51.Philip Shiner, who has been struck off today by the solicitors

:56:52. > :56:56.regulatory authority for his deceit, dishonesty and absolute treason to

:56:57. > :57:00.this country in the way he has pursued fine, fine people. I am

:57:01. > :57:06.delighted that has come. If any man would wish to claim the fate that he

:57:07. > :57:11.does, he should well read his commandments. The eight is that you

:57:12. > :57:17.shall not bear false witness. I would urge the Government to look

:57:18. > :57:21.very hard at the changes it is making not only to the future

:57:22. > :57:25.derogations from the Court of Human Rights, sorry, from the convention

:57:26. > :57:30.of human rights were operations, but also to looking at a statute of

:57:31. > :57:34.limitations, because it is not enough simply to support those who

:57:35. > :57:40.are vulnerable at home, or to make sure that their kids have schools,

:57:41. > :57:43.important though these things are. If for the years after their servers

:57:44. > :57:47.they are constantly looking over their shoulder, fearful of the knock

:57:48. > :57:52.on the door because somebody who had tried and failed to kill them in

:57:53. > :58:01.combat earlier is now using our own courts against them that would not

:58:02. > :58:07.only leave them weak, it would lead them and the country exposed, and

:58:08. > :58:11.that is unacceptable. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I begin

:58:12. > :58:18.with a number of expressions of gratitude, to the chair for allowing

:58:19. > :58:23.me to contribute at all when I could not attend as much of the debate as

:58:24. > :58:25.I should have done, gratitude to my honourable friend for

:58:26. > :58:32.Berwick-upon-Tweed for her splendid work in this respect, of the Armed

:58:33. > :58:38.Forces Covenant. She is new to the House of Commons, relatively

:58:39. > :58:42.speaking, but she has taken to this place like a duck to water.

:58:43. > :58:48.Gratitude to the minister who carries out his responsibilities

:58:49. > :58:51.with conscientiousness, not least informed by his own front-line

:58:52. > :58:56.military service, for which the country has reason to be grateful.

:58:57. > :58:59.And gratitude to all honourable members and honourable friends who

:59:00. > :59:05.have seen active service and who have spoken so movingly today. In

:59:06. > :59:08.particular, I single out my honourable and gallant friend for

:59:09. > :59:15.Tonbridge and moulding who has just spoken unto help the house in a vice

:59:16. > :59:18.like grip and who added an important piece of information that will

:59:19. > :59:23.affect my own remarks. I had not known that Mr Shiner, whom I believe

:59:24. > :59:26.glories in the title of a professorship, had actually been

:59:27. > :59:30.struck off today, and because I knew he was facing on growing

:59:31. > :59:35.proceedings, I wasn't going to say anything about him. I now feel it

:59:36. > :59:38.incumbent on me to say that if people like that had been around in

:59:39. > :59:43.the aftermath of the Second World War, and if our troops in the Second

:59:44. > :59:49.World War had known that they would have to face the duplicity and

:59:50. > :59:51.manoeuvrings and outrages perpetrated on subsequent

:59:52. > :59:56.generations of soldiers by people like that, then I do not think they

:59:57. > :00:01.could possibly have fought with the valour that they did in the defeat

:00:02. > :00:06.of the Nazis and fascism. And the country will be failed by its

:00:07. > :00:12.Government if we do not find a method of preventing what is a much

:00:13. > :00:17.more lethal version of that practice that used to be known in terms of

:00:18. > :00:23.industrial relations as the work-to-rule being applied to every

:00:24. > :00:30.time a soldier has to pull a trigger in a deadly conflict. This would

:00:31. > :00:33.make the carrying out of the profession of arms absolutely

:00:34. > :00:40.impractical and impossible, and the words that we have heard today time

:00:41. > :00:43.and again are these: Statute of limitations. The idea that you are

:00:44. > :00:53.going to be able to come up with relevant, new evidence 40 or more

:00:54. > :00:57.years after the crimes, if they were crowned, were committed is frankly

:00:58. > :01:01.preposterous in the context of a military conflict. It is not going

:01:02. > :01:06.to happen. All it will do is to put people through a mental and

:01:07. > :01:12.emotional ringer for no purpose other than to demoralise the ability

:01:13. > :01:15.of the state to send troops into harm's way, or indeed to recruit

:01:16. > :01:23.troops in the knowledge that they will be sent into harm's way at the

:01:24. > :01:26.behest of the state. Not only do they have to face the violence of

:01:27. > :01:34.the enemy, they then have to face the lies and distortions and blatant

:01:35. > :01:39.manipulations of a blind justice system after they have survived the

:01:40. > :01:45.dangers of combat. This is totally untenable and it has to stop.

:01:46. > :01:52.Statute of limitations does not imply pardoning or killed or

:01:53. > :01:56.anything other than the realisation that if the settlement in Northern

:01:57. > :02:02.Ireland is to hold, it has to have fairness on all sides. You cannot

:02:03. > :02:06.have a situation where one group of people are, if not amnestied, at

:02:07. > :02:14.least given a ceiling to any possible prison sentence they might

:02:15. > :02:19.serve a couple of years and are even enabled to hold positions of high

:02:20. > :02:23.political authority in the political system whilst others, people who

:02:24. > :02:26.were soldiers doing their job with integrity on the half of a

:02:27. > :02:33.democratic government, are placed in harm 's way and pursued to the ends

:02:34. > :02:38.of time. I was kid asked if he agreed that there were other lawyers

:02:39. > :02:44.who might also be included in these points? What I would say is that we

:02:45. > :02:50.have to find a system to insure that what happened in Iraq is never

:02:51. > :02:57.allowed to happen again. At some stage it may mean standing up to the

:02:58. > :03:02.provisions of international law and if we are ever to stand up to the

:03:03. > :03:06.provisions of international law we must use the strongest possible

:03:07. > :03:11.case. What could be a stronger possible case than a settlement in

:03:12. > :03:14.Northern Ireland where one group of people were protected whilst the

:03:15. > :03:20.soldiers who represented the majority of the people are

:03:21. > :03:26.unprotected and are left exposed indefinitely? As I only have a few

:03:27. > :03:30.seconds left, I would urge people to look at the website of the Defence

:03:31. > :03:36.Select Committee to see the hearing we held on the 17th of January when

:03:37. > :03:43.the minister came and was questioned on a whole raft of individual issues

:03:44. > :03:47.about the welfare of our service personnel. In particular I would

:03:48. > :03:50.like to give a little comfort to might honourable and gallant friend

:03:51. > :03:54.from Canterbury and enjoy him that in the light of the comment that he

:03:55. > :03:58.and others have made and the issues raised at that meeting with the

:03:59. > :04:04.minister, it is, shall we say, more than a little probable that will we

:04:05. > :04:09.will be looking into the question of serviced accommodation in the not

:04:10. > :04:14.too distant future. My thanks to the honourable member for

:04:15. > :04:17.Berwick-upon-Tweed and the backbench business committee. In these

:04:18. > :04:19.interesting political times it is important that issues like this are

:04:20. > :04:24.not allowed to fall by the wayside and it has been a useful and

:04:25. > :04:25.interesting debate today with many considered and thoughtful

:04:26. > :04:32.contributions. I was pleased that my honourable friend raised the

:04:33. > :04:37.important point for justice for what is English and to pensions and I

:04:38. > :04:40.particularly Pikulik the honourable conurbations for my friends from

:04:41. > :04:44.Motherwell and Wishaw. On these benches we welcome the publication

:04:45. > :04:47.of the report and it is also vital to record our gratitude for the

:04:48. > :04:50.people who step forward and signal their willingness to put themselves

:04:51. > :04:55.in peril for the rest of us by joining the Armed Forces. The least

:04:56. > :04:58.we can do is to make sure we are driving this forward and

:04:59. > :05:03.establishing whether a particular areas which need focus. I agree with

:05:04. > :05:06.other honourable members that perhaps society is becoming more

:05:07. > :05:10.aware of the effects of military service on mental and physical

:05:11. > :05:16.health both of service personnel and veterans and also their families

:05:17. > :05:20.which is such a key issue. I'm pleased that Scotland has our

:05:21. > :05:24.patrons Commissioner whose contribution is highly regarded and

:05:25. > :05:27.it's a shame that it is not moral depth in the report but they report

:05:28. > :05:33.highlights works engaged with the Muslim unity with a mosque in

:05:34. > :05:36.Nottingham signing the Armed Forces government in December 2016 and at

:05:37. > :05:41.this time when we sending so many wrong signals to the Muslim

:05:42. > :05:44.divinity, this is to be welcomed. It would be helpful if the Muslim

:05:45. > :05:46.divinity, this is to be welcomed. It would be helpful if future report

:05:47. > :05:48.provided a more detailed analysis on progress and extending that kind of

:05:49. > :05:54.engagement -- with the Muslim community. There are approximately

:05:55. > :05:57.1800 men and women who complete their military service and settle in

:05:58. > :06:02.Scotland with their families every year. They are very welcome. But

:06:03. > :06:06.transition can be challenging. It is understood that the majority of

:06:07. > :06:10.veterans managed to transition successfully but we must acknowledge

:06:11. > :06:14.the hurdles that come with this magnitude of change. The combat

:06:15. > :06:18.stress report provided a reminder of that and the work that still needs

:06:19. > :06:23.to be done. Among the key findings was that the clear link between

:06:24. > :06:26.resident in areas with high risks of deprivation and mental have

:06:27. > :06:30.difficulties and my honourable friend made a number of valuable

:06:31. > :06:33.point on that and I share her concerns on the problems experienced

:06:34. > :06:39.by early service leaders in particular with 63% of them living

:06:40. > :06:44.in the most deprived areas and by contrast, among those who served for

:06:45. > :06:49.15 years or more, 32% lived in the most deprived areas. That is a stark

:06:50. > :06:52.contrast. Nearly one in five veterans seeking support for mental

:06:53. > :06:55.health difficulties from combat stress were early service leavers

:06:56. > :07:00.and they are shown to be most at risk of mental illness and with a

:07:01. > :07:04.suicide rate three times higher than the normal veteran counterparts.

:07:05. > :07:08.Members will have heard today the Scottish Government's commitment to

:07:09. > :07:13.making Scotland the destination of choice for service leavers and it is

:07:14. > :07:16.very important to us. In our beckons commissioners employ ability report

:07:17. > :07:21.that is a focus on transferable skills and attributes and on

:07:22. > :07:24.removing barriers to employment. And on early service leavers heat note

:07:25. > :07:29.almost half of army recruits have left school with levels of literacy

:07:30. > :07:32.and numeracy equivalent to that of an 11-year-old and unsurprisingly he

:07:33. > :07:36.reflects they may become the early service leavers of the future. He

:07:37. > :07:41.highlighted the storage of Derek Boyd who left school and quickly

:07:42. > :07:45.joined the Royal Engineers to keep himself out of jail, as he said.

:07:46. > :07:48.Although he left after just four years he managed to get a carpentry

:07:49. > :07:53.qualification and used that to get into college and eventually graduate

:07:54. > :07:57.with a degree. These are key issues to look at going forward. And health

:07:58. > :08:00.care the Scottish Government has put in considerable work and I'm pleased

:08:01. > :08:06.colleagues highlighted excellent work on the veterans first point

:08:07. > :08:08.centres and mental health and also on the priority opportunities for

:08:09. > :08:14.housing which we have heard from a number of members that are so

:08:15. > :08:18.vitally important. Including the new veterans homes which are supported

:08:19. > :08:21.by the Scottish Government in local authority areas across Scotland.

:08:22. > :08:26.When asked about the possibility of a similar post at the veterans

:08:27. > :08:30.Commissioner in his department, the minister said that whilst well

:08:31. > :08:35.intentioned it would duplicate existing provision but in a survey

:08:36. > :08:37.conducted, 70% of clients expressing the view that the Armed Forces

:08:38. > :08:40.government was not being taken seriously I wonder if that is

:08:41. > :08:45.something that could be considered further. Madam Deputy Speaker, of

:08:46. > :08:52.those who left the Armed Forces in 2015 to 16 and used the career

:08:53. > :08:54.transition partnership, 11% were unemployed and timbers and

:08:55. > :08:58.economically active up to six months after leaving service which

:08:59. > :09:03.represent most of doubling the level of unemployment among former service

:09:04. > :09:06.personnel and when broken down by service, gender and ethnicity, the

:09:07. > :09:13.figures are worried. 13% of former members of the army were unemployed

:09:14. > :09:18.six months after leaving. 81% of white service leavers were in

:09:19. > :09:22.employment compared to 73% of black and minority ethnic service leavers.

:09:23. > :09:27.None of that is good enough. For those in employment up to six months

:09:28. > :09:31.after leaving service, 23% were employed in skilled trade

:09:32. > :09:34.occupations compared to 11% across the UK population and that clearly

:09:35. > :09:37.emphasises the value of supporting members of the Armed Forces to

:09:38. > :09:42.improve their skills and qualifications whilst in the

:09:43. > :09:47.services. Madam Deputy Speaker, the National Audit Office report on the

:09:48. > :09:51.MOD equipment plan for 2016 to 2076 concluded that the risks to afford

:09:52. > :09:57.ability to the equipment plan are quick that at any point since

:09:58. > :10:01.reporting began -- to 2026. ?1.5 billion of the savings identified

:10:02. > :10:05.required were to be provided from elsewhere in the defence budget

:10:06. > :10:09.including literary and civilian pay restraint and savings from running

:10:10. > :10:13.the defence estate that is already not a pretty picture in Scotland.

:10:14. > :10:16.That put the pay of Armed Forces and civilian staff right on the front

:10:17. > :10:23.line to meet problems in the equipment budget. That is

:10:24. > :10:26.acceptable. The 2015 Saints are added ?24.4 billion of new

:10:27. > :10:30.commitment to the MoD budget including recognised infantry

:10:31. > :10:34.vehicles, the Poseidon maritime patrol checkup and an acceleration

:10:35. > :10:38.of purchasers of the F505 strike fighter. These are welcome but they

:10:39. > :10:41.appear to have created the government 's own version of the

:10:42. > :10:47.black hole, they'd frequently refer to having inherited from their

:10:48. > :10:49.predecessors. After the tried and tested malfunction that is an

:10:50. > :10:54.obvious suggestion that the government right refocused its

:10:55. > :10:58.defence spending on the mental defences, all military personnel and

:10:59. > :11:00.our veterans so we can be sure they do have the equipment they need,

:11:01. > :11:04.that there is appropriate support provided for them and their families

:11:05. > :11:07.and a proper level of pay. Considering what we have heard

:11:08. > :11:12.today, surely that is what they deserve. If I can conclude by

:11:13. > :11:15.echoing the sentiments of the honourable member for Chester, I

:11:16. > :11:22.would like to appeal to the Minister to bring back the Chennai six come

:11:23. > :11:26.to work with the Foreign Office to bring my constituent, Billy Irving,

:11:27. > :11:29.and his colleagues, all military veterans, home from India and to get

:11:30. > :11:36.them back with their families where they belong. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:11:37. > :11:38.Speaker. I would like to congratulate the Honourable member

:11:39. > :11:44.for Berwick-upon-Tweed on securing this debate and for her important

:11:45. > :11:50.work as chair of the Armed Forces government ABB G. Vickerman set

:11:51. > :11:53.aside as it was a commitment that we admit our Armed Forces in

:11:54. > :11:58.recognition of their service and dedication their sacrifice. These

:11:59. > :12:03.are commitments that we make to the entire forces community, to families

:12:04. > :12:07.and better and as well as to those who are currently serving. When we

:12:08. > :12:10.were in government, Labour did much to pave the way for the covenant

:12:11. > :12:14.with the first military covenant being published in 2000 and it was

:12:15. > :12:19.my right honourable friend the member for Hull West and hassle who

:12:20. > :12:21.was Health Secretary and ensure that veterans would get priority

:12:22. > :12:25.treatment on the NHS for the first time. It is encouraging to see their

:12:26. > :12:28.has been such enthusiastic recognition of the covenant by

:12:29. > :12:31.businesses, community and religious groups and the annual report on the

:12:32. > :12:37.covenant are an important way of making sure it is being honoured and

:12:38. > :12:40.applied properly. But we must never become complacent about the

:12:41. > :12:45.covenant, particularly at a time of swingeing cuts to council budget and

:12:46. > :12:49.the health service. We must defend and extend the services available to

:12:50. > :12:53.the forces community as a result of the covenant. Moreover, there is

:12:54. > :12:58.always more we can do to ensure that the two vital principles that

:12:59. > :13:01.underlie the covenant, that the forces should have special

:13:02. > :13:06.consideration and suffer no disadvantage, are a reality for all

:13:07. > :13:10.in the forces community. I want to welcome in particular the work the

:13:11. > :13:14.Royal British Legion will lead to estimate a veterans gateway to point

:13:15. > :13:20.of the forces Unity consisting of a gateway contact centre with a direct

:13:21. > :13:23.phone number and website. In my conversations with forces charities

:13:24. > :13:26.and service users, it is clear this could be a real benefit to the

:13:27. > :13:34.community, particularly veterans who do not know exactly where to turn

:13:35. > :13:37.when seeking support and advice. It has been described as an extremely

:13:38. > :13:41.positive development which would be a great benefit to those in need.

:13:42. > :13:45.But it is essential become a does all it can to publicise the Gateway,

:13:46. > :13:49.particularly to those who have left the forces some time ago. The report

:13:50. > :13:53.describes the many positive steps taken by local authorities across

:13:54. > :14:00.England to deliver the covenant such as the Blackpool Council where the

:14:01. > :14:02.Armed Forces champion, Labour councillor Chris Ryan, is

:14:03. > :14:05.responsible for consulting interested parties are putting

:14:06. > :14:10.together and delivering an action plan. The purpose of that is to

:14:11. > :14:14.address shortcomings and to make improvements. Can the Minister

:14:15. > :14:19.please tell us what monitoring and evaluation his department does of

:14:20. > :14:24.action plans by local councils and health bodies and what discussions

:14:25. > :14:30.does he have with local councils and health bodies about setting targets

:14:31. > :14:32.for the report also lauds the impressive commitment of the

:14:33. > :14:39.devolved government of Scottish Scotland and Wales. The Labour was

:14:40. > :14:43.government has made particular strides, including investing

:14:44. > :14:46.?650,000 in specialist health services including improvement in

:14:47. > :14:50.psychological therapies and developing a fast crack -- a verbal

:14:51. > :14:55.pathway to support injured service personnel in their return employable

:14:56. > :14:59.status. There was much the report are welcome but it is clear from the

:15:00. > :15:01.observations of the covenant reference group that there was much

:15:02. > :15:06.more to be done to ensure the commitments made in the covenant are

:15:07. > :15:09.fully realised for all. The forces family Federation expressed real

:15:10. > :15:12.concern that the current and future provision of housing for service

:15:13. > :15:16.members and their families and indeed the federation state they

:15:17. > :15:20.have had more complaint in the last 12 months than ever before about

:15:21. > :15:24.poorly maintained and substandard housing units including leaking

:15:25. > :15:28.roofs, no heating for months and broken toilets that unrepaired. They

:15:29. > :15:32.issue a stark warning that this situation represent a threat to

:15:33. > :15:35.recruitment and retention as well as to the morale of our service

:15:36. > :15:39.personnel and is one for which we urge shrift action.

:15:40. > :15:47.And yet we know there have been great concern for some time. A

:15:48. > :15:50.judgment was passed down in concluding that they were letting

:15:51. > :15:53.down service families by providing poor accommodation and often leaving

:15:54. > :15:58.them for too long without basic living requirements. This issue goes

:15:59. > :16:01.right to the heart of our covenant and the duties we owe our Armed

:16:02. > :16:06.Forces. I would like to ask the Minister to spell out what action he

:16:07. > :16:10.will take over the next 12 months to ensure that this situation does not

:16:11. > :16:12.continue. There is also great uncertainty and worry about proposed

:16:13. > :16:16.changes to the forces housing that had been considered by the MoD, the

:16:17. > :16:22.so-called future accommodation model. The families Federation

:16:23. > :16:26.reports increased nervousness I forces, not least because they

:16:27. > :16:30.suspect that these plans have more to do with cost-cutting than

:16:31. > :16:34.actually improving the provision for them. The department must provide

:16:35. > :16:40.clear information about what could be very significant changes that

:16:41. > :16:51.might changes to accommodation, and we must ensure the views of families

:16:52. > :16:57.are listened to and respected. If, as I fear, this process is driven by

:16:58. > :17:00.cost cutting at the MoD with fewer options for forces families and

:17:01. > :17:04.increasingly exposing families to exploitation by private landlords,

:17:05. > :17:12.that is something else entirely. Another uncertainty that is apparent

:17:13. > :17:16.is concerned with the Government's decision to close 90 MoD sites

:17:17. > :17:23.across the UK, which will see York and other places losing barracks. Of

:17:24. > :17:27.course, the requirements will change over time and there is a need to

:17:28. > :17:33.modernise and reflect this, but the complete lack of detail that the MoD

:17:34. > :17:38.has provided to those affected by these changes is unacceptable. In

:17:39. > :17:42.many cases, we have no idea of the time frame for a base closure and

:17:43. > :17:44.whether civilian staff will be able to commute to other sites in the

:17:45. > :17:52.vicinity of whether they will lose jobs altogether. I am concerned that

:17:53. > :17:56.one place earmarked for closure is in Blackpool, housing veterans UK.

:17:57. > :18:01.All we are told is that the site will be replaced by a Government hub

:18:02. > :18:05.in the north-west, but if it ends up being beyond reasonable commuting

:18:06. > :18:10.distance of Manchester, for example, we risk losing experienced staff.

:18:11. > :18:15.The federation says that many questions around programmes like the

:18:16. > :18:20.veterans defence estate means that personnel and their families live

:18:21. > :18:23.with increasing uncertainty. I would ask that the Minister would try as

:18:24. > :18:28.much as he can to provide the Armed Forces with the answers they

:18:29. > :18:30.deserve. As well as ensuring that commitments contained in the

:18:31. > :18:34.covenant are being delivered effectively, we must ensure the

:18:35. > :18:41.covenant applies across Britain and that its application is not patchy.

:18:42. > :18:45.As noted in the report, the delivery of the covenant is varied across the

:18:46. > :18:49.UK with a clear need to ensure that appropriate training is given to

:18:50. > :18:53.local authority staff to ensure that policies are properly implemented.

:18:54. > :18:57.Research published last year found that only 16% of veterans surveyed

:18:58. > :19:05.thought the covenant was being invented effectively. We need the

:19:06. > :19:10.Government also to look at monitoring and evaluation to develop

:19:11. > :19:14.strategies to make sure those concerned implement the covenant

:19:15. > :19:20.effectively. Central to the issue of identifying our forces community to

:19:21. > :19:23.make sure they can access services they need. One starting point

:19:24. > :19:41.highlighted in the Best practice guide to the covenant ... The

:19:42. > :19:45.challenge is always to find ways of monitoring and evaluating in ways

:19:46. > :19:48.that are effectively but not overly bureaucratic. We should not forget

:19:49. > :19:51.that many of our public bodies are under considerable strain as they

:19:52. > :19:57.face a cutback and increased the man. I would ask the Government to

:19:58. > :19:59.commit to the count them in campaign so that we have a better

:20:00. > :20:06.understanding of the nation's profile. Last year, the Government

:20:07. > :20:10.announced the new ?10 million covenant fun. I would like to ask

:20:11. > :20:13.the Minister Wadi valuation he has made the use of this money and of

:20:14. > :20:18.measurable outcomes, and how this will affect the future use of fun.

:20:19. > :20:22.The covenant and the services it guarantees are a moral obligation to

:20:23. > :20:27.us all as a society to ensure that our forces are supported and

:20:28. > :20:30.honoured for their service, and it is also crucial to retention and

:20:31. > :20:33.recruitment. It isn't coming upon all of us to make sure that our

:20:34. > :20:44.forces community gets the very best, because they deserve nothing less.

:20:45. > :20:50.In the six minutes I have to respond, I will not be able to

:20:51. > :20:56.address many of the questions raised today, so I start by committing to

:20:57. > :21:00.Honourable members to write to them after the debate. I will also start

:21:01. > :21:05.by congratulating my honourable friend for Berwick on securing this

:21:06. > :21:11.debate. Her knowledge has demonstrated that it is second to

:21:12. > :21:17.none. It might be useful to provide the house was in context. The notion

:21:18. > :21:23.of a special bond between the state and Armed Forces is hardly new. I

:21:24. > :21:26.was surprised to see as early as 1593, the Elizabethans had

:21:27. > :21:29.introduced a statute ensuring disabled Army veterans should ever

:21:30. > :21:32.to be relieved and rewarded to the end that they may reap the fruit

:21:33. > :21:37.their good deservings. It is something we should be doing today.

:21:38. > :21:40.The term military covenant was coined in 2000, as the Honourable

:21:41. > :21:44.lady said. I remember hearing the term when I was serving in Kosovo.

:21:45. > :21:49.It was then little more than an informal understanding of the debt

:21:50. > :21:56.we owe to those who have given service. It was enshrined in law in

:21:57. > :21:59.the Armed Forces act of 2011, and much of the progress in recent years

:22:00. > :22:06.has been highlighted in the debate today, so I won't dwell on it. If I

:22:07. > :22:11.may, I will focus on three areas where progress is most pronounced,

:22:12. > :22:15.but before I do, I want is a couple of words on the Northern Ireland

:22:16. > :22:20.legacy investigations which been raised by so many in the chamber

:22:21. > :22:24.this afternoon. Whilst this Government firmly believes in

:22:25. > :22:27.upholding the rule of law, we are concerned that investigations into

:22:28. > :22:31.Northern Ireland's past focus almost entirely on former police officers

:22:32. > :22:34.and soldiers. This is wrong and does not reflect the fact that the

:22:35. > :22:39.overwhelming majority of those who served its own with great bravery

:22:40. > :22:41.and distinction. This is why the defence and Northern Ireland

:22:42. > :22:44.secretaries are working together to ensure that veterans are not

:22:45. > :22:48.unfairly treated or disproportionately investigated

:22:49. > :22:53.compared to others in an effort to create a storm of house agreement

:22:54. > :22:56.Bill. We are acutely mindful of the burden that historic investigations

:22:57. > :22:59.can place on veterans and their families. Where veterans face

:23:00. > :23:04.allegations arising from actions they undertook as part of their

:23:05. > :23:08.duties, taxpayer funded legal advice and representation is available for

:23:09. > :23:13.as long as is necessary. In addition to legal advice, the MoD will

:23:14. > :23:16.provide partial support, either directly through regimental

:23:17. > :23:20.associations or veterans UK, or in partnership with veterans charities,

:23:21. > :23:25.depending on individual needs. If I may, I would like to touch briefly

:23:26. > :23:29.on three areas. First, veterans' health. It is only right that those

:23:30. > :23:34.who have sustained life changing injuries should receive the best

:23:35. > :23:38.medical care. We work with the NHS to ensure that recent veterans with

:23:39. > :23:44.complex amputation complications can be referred back to a dedicated

:23:45. > :23:48.clinic at Headley Court when needed. We are not just thinking

:23:49. > :23:50.rehabilitation. The most seriously injured personnel also need

:23:51. > :23:55.assistance with the transition to civvy street and through life. We

:23:56. > :23:58.are working to develop a new integrated personal commissioning

:23:59. > :24:03.for veterans model. This joined up system aims to bring the NHS, MoD

:24:04. > :24:05.and charitable sector together to provide services specifically

:24:06. > :24:11.tailored to an individual veteran's need. The new veterans trauma

:24:12. > :24:15.network launched last year offers a safety net for those with lifelong

:24:16. > :24:18.health care needs. Increasingly, we recognise the scars of war are more

:24:19. > :24:24.than just skin deep, so the Government is also channelling ?30

:24:25. > :24:30.million to help the Armed Forces community. I have met some of the

:24:31. > :24:35.chief executives of combat stress to find out how we can work more

:24:36. > :24:40.closely with that organisation. I commend the member for Wiltshire on

:24:41. > :24:42.the work he has done. We have completed and implemented his

:24:43. > :24:46.recommendations from the report. I would like to focus on preventative

:24:47. > :24:55.action that we can take the personnel why they are -- while they

:24:56. > :25:03.are serving. On housing, which clearly was a bone of contention

:25:04. > :25:07.between myself and my friend, I absolutely understand what he is

:25:08. > :25:11.trying to tell me. I feel somewhat at a disadvantage to the extent it

:25:12. > :25:16.would appear almost as if he is sure what format the future accommodation

:25:17. > :25:28.model is going to take, so I simply seize this opportunity to take this

:25:29. > :25:32.opportunity -- to tell him we have yet to make any firm decisions about

:25:33. > :25:36.what format this accommodation model will take. It will leave old, and I

:25:37. > :25:40.will absolutely ensure that when we do get to a position, and it will be

:25:41. > :25:47.complex and one size will not fit all, and I do want to dispel one

:25:48. > :25:56.myth, that we are not going to scrap all service family accommodation.

:25:57. > :25:59.Anyone who challenges that I would invite to come to Wiltshire where we

:26:00. > :26:05.are building new accommodation, some 444 new homes will stop why would we

:26:06. > :26:09.be building new accommodation if we will not be using it at all in the

:26:10. > :26:17.future? I do think it is absolutely right that when we do look at our

:26:18. > :26:20.service family accommodation, that there should be options, that we

:26:21. > :26:24.should recognise that young people don't necessarily want to live in

:26:25. > :26:30.single living accommodation. Why is it that over 9000 service personnel

:26:31. > :26:33.have now used our servers help to buy scheme so that they can buy

:26:34. > :26:38.their own home and get into the private sector? It is all about

:26:39. > :26:44.delivering options and ensuring that our service family personnel have

:26:45. > :26:47.those options. It is a complex model, I realise it is

:26:48. > :26:51.controversial, and I think that much of the problem we have today is that

:26:52. > :26:55.we have not had the opportunity to communicate what many of the options

:26:56. > :26:57.will be in the future, and I am determined to address that. Having

:26:58. > :27:02.focused on that, I recognise that I am probably don't have to finish. I

:27:03. > :27:06.would say to the never forgetting that there is all was a debate about

:27:07. > :27:10.where the line should be. To the honourable member for Blackpool, I

:27:11. > :27:14.am proud that some 95% of our new entries are enrolled through

:27:15. > :27:17.apprenticeships. To the honourable member for Chester, I am more than

:27:18. > :27:24.happy to meet him about Dale barracks. I would like to thank all

:27:25. > :27:29.colleagues have spent their Thursday afternoon here rather than in Stoke

:27:30. > :27:34.Copeland, and to the minister who has sat patiently listening to us as

:27:35. > :27:36.we share our praise and criticism for the ways the Armed Forces

:27:37. > :27:42.Covenant is rolling out. There must be something about Kent, because the

:27:43. > :27:45.members for Tonbridge and Canterbury are passionate about the issues on

:27:46. > :27:51.housing. The fact it is not just about the bricks is the critical

:27:52. > :27:53.point. I hope the Minister and Ministry will hear that message,

:27:54. > :27:58.because that is the message from families to them. The model needs to

:27:59. > :28:02.be good and 21st-century, but it is not just about the bricks. So many

:28:03. > :28:05.colleagues have talked about the question of the statute of

:28:06. > :28:09.limitations, and I know the Minister is working closely with that. If the

:28:10. > :28:16.honourable and gallant member for Plymouth who could not be here can

:28:17. > :28:18.change minds and drive forward good improvements, I have very much that

:28:19. > :28:24.colleagues who have spoken debate can put forward that statute of

:28:25. > :28:30.limitations and find a legal framework that can work. The work

:28:31. > :28:34.done over the last two years is extensive, and we must remember that

:28:35. > :28:37.unless our recruitment and retention succeeds, we will not have the Armed

:28:38. > :28:42.Forces that we need to take up the challenges that the world around us

:28:43. > :28:45.demands, and that every decision the ministry makes cannot only be on

:28:46. > :28:49.cost saving grounds, but that value for money isn't about cost saving,

:28:50. > :28:53.it is about getting the right investment for our Armed Forces to

:28:54. > :28:56.ensure we look after them as they serve, we look after their families

:28:57. > :29:05.and we look after them for the rest of their lives. The question is that

:29:06. > :29:14.this house has considered the Armed Forces Covenant Report 2016. As many

:29:15. > :29:21.as the opinion, say aye. And no. The ayes habit. Earlier today, you may

:29:22. > :29:24.remember that the Secretary of State of leaving the European Union made a

:29:25. > :29:29.copy of the white paper available to the house. I have my copy here. We

:29:30. > :29:35.have found that at least one chart within the document contains

:29:36. > :29:39.incorrect information, chart 7.1 states that the United Kingdom

:29:40. > :29:43.workers have entitlement to 14 annual holidays, but in reality,

:29:44. > :29:51.Madam Deputy Speaker, the Chart should state that 5.6 weeks of paid

:29:52. > :29:55.holiday are available. There is also an error that claims the European

:29:56. > :30:12.Union minimum maternity leave entitlement is only 5.6 weeks, when

:30:13. > :30:20.it should be 14 weeks. ... Subtitles will resume at 9pm.