23/02/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.are no further points of order, and I think you go racing that, we come

:00:00. > :00:12.to the presentation of bills, secretary Elizabeth truss.

:00:13. > :00:18.Prisoners... Second reading, what they? Tomorrow. We now come to the

:00:19. > :00:21.motion in the name of the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party on

:00:22. > :00:28.Armed Forces and investigations in prosecution of historical cases to

:00:29. > :00:34.move the motion I call said Jeffrey Donaldson. And be half of my white

:00:35. > :00:39.honourable and honourable friends I am delighted to move this motion in

:00:40. > :00:43.the name of the Democratic Unionist party at let me say from the outset

:00:44. > :00:48.that the veterans of our Armed Forces and those who served in the

:00:49. > :00:53.police, not only in Northern Ireland but cost United can do, I the

:00:54. > :00:58.highest esteem by this party, and we have always sought to use our

:00:59. > :01:04.Parliamentary time to raise issues are of concern to them. We're glad

:01:05. > :01:07.to do so again on this occasion. I welcome the opportunity of this

:01:08. > :01:11.debate and I think all of my colleagues and all those who are in

:01:12. > :01:23.attendance including the ministers from both Ireland office and the

:01:24. > :01:26.Ministry of Defence. Mr Speaker, the legacy of our troubled past remains

:01:27. > :01:30.a matter for this parliament and for the government of the United Kingdom

:01:31. > :01:38.to deal with full. Our motion refers to other theatres of conflict, Iraq,

:01:39. > :01:42.Kosovo and Afghanistan and I wouldn't want at the outset to play

:01:43. > :01:46.tribute to all of those who have served and especially those who have

:01:47. > :01:52.died in the servers of our country in each of these operations. I know

:01:53. > :01:54.the bubble honourable right honourable member 's will which to

:01:55. > :01:59.refer to them and their remarks, but the House will forgive me if I could

:02:00. > :02:06.concentrate merely on the situation in Northern Ireland. With good

:02:07. > :02:09.reason. Let me again remind colleagues the operation Banner was

:02:10. > :02:15.the longest running military operation in the history of the

:02:16. > :02:18.Army. During the period known as the troubles in Northern Ireland, there

:02:19. > :02:24.were over three and a half thousand deaths, of these over 2000, 60%,

:02:25. > :02:31.were murders carried out by Republican paramedic tree catalysts,

:02:32. > :02:39.mainly the provisional IRA. Over 1000 were carried out by loyalist

:02:40. > :02:43.paramilitaries some 30%. British and Irish state forces were responsible

:02:44. > :02:49.for Thames and of the deaths, almost all of which occurred as result of

:02:50. > :02:52.entirely lawful actions where soldiers and police officers acted

:02:53. > :03:00.to safeguard life and property and uphold the rule of law. In fact, a

:03:01. > :03:02.member of the security forces in Northern Ireland was three times

:03:03. > :03:08.more likely to be killed than a member of the IR A. Contrast this

:03:09. > :03:11.with Iraq, for example, where terrorist insurgents were three

:03:12. > :03:18.times more likely to be killed the members of the Armed Forces. ---

:03:19. > :03:23.then a member of the IRA. I think it sets the Northern Ireland situation

:03:24. > :03:27.into context. Let me restate that paramilitary terrorists were

:03:28. > :03:33.responsible for some 90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and on

:03:34. > :03:40.both sides of the border. Whereas, 10% of deaths are attributable to

:03:41. > :03:44.state forces. Of these deaths, there are over 3000 unsolved murders

:03:45. > :03:49.arising from our troubled past. What a terrible legacy this is, one of

:03:50. > :03:55.pain and loss and a deep sense of injustice on the part of the victims

:03:56. > :04:01.and their families. Let me be clear, there can be no moral or legal

:04:02. > :04:07.equivalent is between police, our Armed Forces and those who were

:04:08. > :04:11.members of illegal, criminal, terrorist organisations. So, let us

:04:12. > :04:17.contrast how the two have been treated. It is well accepted as a

:04:18. > :04:23.principle that in a democracy nobody should be above the law. And yet, as

:04:24. > :04:27.will become clear for my remark is that appears to be one rule for

:04:28. > :04:33.those who serve our country and another for those whose objective is

:04:34. > :04:36.to destroy it for. Unfortunately, these legacy issues were not

:04:37. > :04:44.adequately addressed, never mind resolved in the deeply flawed

:04:45. > :04:50.Belfast agreement of Good Friday. Instead, the government agreed to

:04:51. > :04:54.release Ali from prison those prisoners sentenced for offences

:04:55. > :05:00.linked to the troubles in Northern Ireland. --- to release early. And

:05:01. > :05:05.who were members of a terrorist organisation on ceasefire and

:05:06. > :05:09.reporting volley... Terrorists who were found guilty of crimes

:05:10. > :05:15.including murder were released after serving any two years in jail, these

:05:16. > :05:18.included the example the notorious bomber Sean Kelly from the

:05:19. > :05:24.constituency of my right honourable friend the Member for North Belfast.

:05:25. > :05:31.He was sentenced to nine life terms in prison for the murder of nine

:05:32. > :05:37.innocent civilians, he served just seven years in jail. Less than one

:05:38. > :05:42.year fit each life he destroyed. In addition, and beyond the terms of

:05:43. > :05:47.the agreement, the then Secretary of State, the now Lord Mandelson, in

:05:48. > :05:52.September 2000, announced that the government would no longer seek the

:05:53. > :05:56.extradition of those provisional IRA prisoners who had escaped including

:05:57. > :06:03.several who had escaped from the maze prison in my constituency in

:06:04. > :06:13.1983. This included convicted terrorists. And former head of the

:06:14. > :06:15.provisional IRA. Someone who was convicted of the murder of the

:06:16. > :06:23.deputy governor of the maze prison. The governor, who was shot in front

:06:24. > :06:29.of his wife, what an appalling atrocity. Liam Avril, convicted of

:06:30. > :06:32.the sectarian murder of two Protestants, and who escaped from

:06:33. > :06:39.the maze prison dressed as a woman in 1997. And yet the extradition was

:06:40. > :06:51.not sought by the government of the day. In addition, perhaps up to 30

:06:52. > :06:54.provisional IRA terrorists have been granted the royal prerogative of

:06:55. > :06:56.mercy and allowed to go free. In 2001 the then Labour government

:06:57. > :07:01.sought to extend this concession further so that an amnesty would be

:07:02. > :07:06.introduced for all members of terrorist organisations on

:07:07. > :07:11.ceasefire. In a letter dated the 4th of May, 2001, the then Secretary of

:07:12. > :07:16.State Doctor John Reid Road to the Prime Minister Tony Blair, and in

:07:17. > :07:19.that letter Doctor Reid stated, in the Hillsborough statement of the

:07:20. > :07:22.8th of March, we accepted publicly for the first time that it would be

:07:23. > :07:29.a natural development of the early release scheme to discontinue the

:07:30. > :07:32.prosecution of pre-Good Friday Agreement offences allegedly

:07:33. > :07:37.committed by supporters of organisations now on ceasefire. In

:07:38. > :07:41.the same letter to the Prime Minister, Doctor Reid said, and made

:07:42. > :07:47.clear that the legislation to provide for this amnesty, should

:07:48. > :07:50.exclude members of the security forces from the amnesty

:07:51. > :07:54.arrangements, though we should not underestimate the difficulty of

:07:55. > :07:59.holding this line in Parliament in the face of an inevitable press

:08:00. > :08:02.campaign. You bet, Doctor Reid. We opposed it and we opposed it

:08:03. > :08:05.vigorously, and we stopped it in its tracks and I'm confident this

:08:06. > :08:11.government would never consider such a concession to those who have

:08:12. > :08:16.committed murder on the streets of Northern Ireland, and indeed in

:08:17. > :08:23.Great Britain. But note an amnesty was offered. And amnesty was put on

:08:24. > :08:25.the table for terrorist organisations, whilst the members of

:08:26. > :08:32.our security forces were to be excluded. Just as they were excluded

:08:33. > :08:39.and ignored in the agreement in 1998. Well, Doctor Wright, Doctor

:08:40. > :08:44.Reid was certainly right about the opposition that he would face to

:08:45. > :08:51.such a reprehensible scheme but it didn't stop there. A secret deal was

:08:52. > :08:55.then done between the Northern Ireland Office and Sinn Fein to the

:08:56. > :08:58.benefit of provisional IRA terrorists who were still on the

:08:59. > :09:02.run, few were fugitives from justice. They were wanted for

:09:03. > :09:07.questioning relation to serious terrorist relating offences

:09:08. > :09:10.including murder. Four letters of comfort were issued by the Northern

:09:11. > :09:14.Ireland Office to each of these terrorists, sometimes delivered by

:09:15. > :09:18.the post man Gerry Kelly from North Belfast, informing them that there

:09:19. > :09:21.were no warrants in existence, nor were they wanted in Northern Ireland

:09:22. > :09:27.for rest, questioning or charging by the police. Issuing of these letters

:09:28. > :09:32.by The Northern Ireland Office resulted in the disgraceful

:09:33. > :09:37.situation, where an alleged IRA member, John Downie, was able to

:09:38. > :09:42.escape conviction in the courts in London, for the murder of four

:09:43. > :09:45.soldiers in the Hyde Park bombings of 1982 full stop Madam Deputy

:09:46. > :09:50.Speaker, I could go on. But I think it's important now that we focus on

:09:51. > :09:57.the sacrifice of the security forces. Of those who served our

:09:58. > :10:02.country. According to the Sutton index of death in the Troubles in

:10:03. > :10:05.Northern Ireland there were 520 regular army Royal Navy, Royal air

:10:06. > :10:13.Force, reserves and veterans murdered by terrorists during

:10:14. > :10:19.Operation Banner. In addition, there were 243 members of the Ulster

:10:20. > :10:22.Defence Regiment, the Royal Irish Regiment, and veterans, murdered by

:10:23. > :10:29.terrorists. There were 325 Royal Ulster Constabulary, other

:10:30. > :10:34.constabularies and retired police of his is murdered by terrorists. There

:10:35. > :10:38.were 26 prison officers and former prison officer is murdered by

:10:39. > :10:44.terrorists. Madam Deputy Speaker, that amounts to 1100 men and women

:10:45. > :10:47.in the service of the Crown who were murdered by terrorists and countless

:10:48. > :10:50.others who were seriously injured and left to bear the mental and

:10:51. > :10:57.physical scars of this reign of terror. I'm very grateful to the

:10:58. > :11:02.honourable member for giving way and he's speaking very powerfully about

:11:03. > :11:06.the victims of terror. One is my uncle, who sits in the other plays,

:11:07. > :11:10.who was attacked brutally by IRA men one who was representing our country

:11:11. > :11:14.in Brussels. There are so many scars that are hidden by the statistics. I

:11:15. > :11:18.understand why he mentions them. But they are hidden because they are not

:11:19. > :11:24.listed and yet they bear those scars today, even when they were unharmed

:11:25. > :11:28.physically. The honourable member is absolutely right and as I have just

:11:29. > :11:31.said, there are countless others who were seriously injured and left to

:11:32. > :11:36.bear the mental and physical scars of this reign of terror. It is

:11:37. > :11:41.evidence, Madam Deputy Speaker, that little effort has been made to bring

:11:42. > :11:46.to justice those responsible for the seen as crimes, committed by the

:11:47. > :11:49.terrorist organisations who were responsible for 90% of the deaths in

:11:50. > :11:56.the Northern Ireland Troubles. Yet enormous resources, hundreds of

:11:57. > :11:59.millions of pounds, of taxpayers' money, and countless hours of

:12:00. > :12:03.valuable police time, has been devoted to hounding the security

:12:04. > :12:09.forces to vigorously pursuing, investigations against former

:12:10. > :12:15.veterans of the Armed Forces and retired lease officers. The Chief

:12:16. > :12:19.Constable did establish the historical enquiries team, that

:12:20. > :12:21.sought to re-examine the unsolved murders in Northern Ireland, but it

:12:22. > :12:26.could only review the previous police investigations and it lacks

:12:27. > :12:33.full police powers to renew the investigation of these killings. It

:12:34. > :12:35.was eventually wound up and the Police Service of Northern Ireland

:12:36. > :12:40.established a new legacy investigation Branch to act as a

:12:41. > :12:45.temporary measure until wider agreement could be secured on the

:12:46. > :12:50.legacy issues. Today, madam Deputy Speaker, the PSNI's legacy

:12:51. > :12:54.investigation Branch devotes a wholly disproportionate level of its

:12:55. > :13:01.resources to the investigation of killings linked to the security

:13:02. > :13:02.forces and hopelessly inadequate resources to the thousands,

:13:03. > :13:09.thousands of unsolved terrorist murders. Recently we have witnessed

:13:10. > :13:15.two retired veterans of the Parachute Regiment, aged 67 and 65,

:13:16. > :13:21.charged with murder, in connection with the shooting of IRA commander

:13:22. > :13:28.Joe McCann in Belfast in 1972. This follows the decision to prosecute a

:13:29. > :13:30.75-year-old veteran of the lifeguards, who has been charged

:13:31. > :13:38.with the attempted murder of a man in County Tyrone 1974. Whilst the

:13:39. > :13:42.families of thousands of innocent victims, including over 1000 cases

:13:43. > :13:46.involving the murder of police officers, soldiers and prison

:13:47. > :13:50.officers, wait in vain for some action to be taken to investigate

:13:51. > :13:55.those crimes, the police are devoting resources towards

:13:56. > :14:04.investigating the small number of killings linked to the state. I

:14:05. > :14:07.apologise for not being here at the start and I apologise for not being

:14:08. > :14:11.here for the whole of the debate but I want to salute him and his

:14:12. > :14:15.colleagues in the DUP for today holding this debate, which is hugely

:14:16. > :14:18.important. The point he's just made about the disproportionate number of

:14:19. > :14:24.investigations into former soldiers and police officers, is he aware

:14:25. > :14:31.that the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland has

:14:32. > :14:35.issued effectively a fatwa to news organisations across the United

:14:36. > :14:48.Kingdom, that had the temerity to make any criticism of Mr McCrory,

:14:49. > :14:52.and that they will be served with legal proceedings. Does that not

:14:53. > :14:55.illustrate the attempt that is being made by some in Northern Ireland to

:14:56. > :15:00.ensure that they get a soldier in the dock for something that happened

:15:01. > :15:07.45 years ago? It's completely immoral. Well, we do have freedom of

:15:08. > :15:11.the press in Northern Ireland and it's important that we all recognise

:15:12. > :15:19.and respect the freedom of the press and the facts speak for themselves.

:15:20. > :15:23.I've already outlined some of those facts. I think there are many in

:15:24. > :15:27.Northern Ireland who wonder why the justice system is so focused on what

:15:28. > :15:35.the state did and devotes so little of its energy and time towards what

:15:36. > :15:39.the terrorists did. I'm following closely his remarks. Does he agree

:15:40. > :15:45.with me that the end result of all of this is that Sinn Fein is winning

:15:46. > :15:53.the war, by which I mean is managing to shift public opinion, so somehow

:15:54. > :15:57.the Troubles become an issue to do with the actions of the British

:15:58. > :16:02.state, and not to do with the murderous barbarism of terrorism

:16:03. > :16:06.during a period of time? And would he say also that it's having some

:16:07. > :16:11.measure of success in that endeavour? Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:16:12. > :16:14.think the honourable member for his intervention and he is absolutely

:16:15. > :16:18.right, and whilst the IRA did not win the war in Northern Ireland,

:16:19. > :16:21.Sinn Fein are trying to win the propaganda war and rewrite the

:16:22. > :16:24.history of the Troubles. And for our part let me be absolutely clear,

:16:25. > :16:29.they will not be allowed to rewrite the history of the Troubles in

:16:30. > :16:34.Northern Ireland. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have said, it's

:16:35. > :16:36.evident that the current resources devoted towards legacy

:16:37. > :16:41.investigations are heavily skewed towards investigating what the

:16:42. > :16:48.police and the army did, and not enough is being done to address what

:16:49. > :16:53.the terrorists did, despite the fact that they were responsible for over

:16:54. > :17:00.90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and in other parts of the

:17:01. > :17:06.UK. It is wrong that the full powers and finances of the state are

:17:07. > :17:12.devoted to prosecuting the men and women who stood in the front line in

:17:13. > :17:17.the most difficult of to defend the entire community and to uphold the

:17:18. > :17:20.rule of law. I thank the right honourable member for giving way.

:17:21. > :17:28.Would he agree with me as he delivers his powerful speech

:17:29. > :17:32.regarding this, that to comp claim -- to compound matters in the last

:17:33. > :17:35.few weeks a number of veterans' groups are organising events to

:17:36. > :17:39.highlight this problem is that we are highlighting and one of those

:17:40. > :17:43.groups attempted to organise peaceful demonstrating, a peaceful

:17:44. > :17:47.laying of a wreath in Londonderry a couple of weeks ago, and were forced

:17:48. > :17:51.to cancel as a result of threats from dissident organisation, which

:17:52. > :17:56.compounds the problem is he's highlighted today in Parliament? I

:17:57. > :17:58.thank the envelope -- Honourable member for East Londonderry for his

:17:59. > :18:02.intervention. There are some in Northern Ireland who talk much about

:18:03. > :18:08.respect and equality, who talked much about discrimination, and yet

:18:09. > :18:12.the same people were silent when it came to the violent, violent threats

:18:13. > :18:17.made against some veterans, who simply wanted to exercise their

:18:18. > :18:21.Civil Liberties to march to the Cenotaph in Londonderry and lay a

:18:22. > :18:26.wreath in remembrance of their comrades. Some respect there, some

:18:27. > :18:30.equality there, and I think it is the case that some in Northern

:18:31. > :18:35.Ireland politics speak with forked tongue. Madam Deputy Speaker, when

:18:36. > :18:39.we add to all of these things the fact that legacy inquests and

:18:40. > :18:46.investigations by the office of the police ombudsman are also laying

:18:47. > :18:50.bare the modus operandi of the counter-terrorism organisations --

:18:51. > :18:53.operations by the army and police that brought the terrorists in

:18:54. > :18:58.Northern Ireland to their knees and help secure the relative degree of

:18:59. > :19:00.peace we enjoy today, then we should all be concerned, because it's our

:19:01. > :19:06.national security. It's the security of every UK citizen that is put at

:19:07. > :19:12.risk, when we allow the operations of the security forces to be exposed

:19:13. > :19:15.in this way through the legal system, and we must bear in mind

:19:16. > :19:23.there is a continuing threat. A police officer yesterday targeted by

:19:24. > :19:27.Republican terrorists in County Londonderry, and another police

:19:28. > :19:30.officer shot in the constituency of my right honourable friend the

:19:31. > :19:34.member for North Belfast. That terrorist threat remains and yet

:19:35. > :19:40.here we are exposing how the security forces counter that violent

:19:41. > :19:45.extremism and terrorism. Madam Deputy Speaker, we can be sure of

:19:46. > :19:48.this. Putting soldiers and police officers in the dock whilst the

:19:49. > :19:52.terrorists walk free is an expediency that will cost us dear in

:19:53. > :20:00.years to come, if we don't do something about it now. I thank him

:20:01. > :20:07.for giving way. He highlights their one of the critical issues which I'm

:20:08. > :20:10.hearing from both young and older Armed Forces personnel and those who

:20:11. > :20:15.are considering this pressure, this risk to serving our nation and the

:20:16. > :20:17.long-term impact it could have on them and their families decades down

:20:18. > :20:21.the line, is actually stopping people from signing up, and it's

:20:22. > :20:31.She is absolutely right. Not only is earlier than they otherwise would.

:20:32. > :20:36.She is absolutely right. Not only is this a affecting the morale of those

:20:37. > :20:40.who serve at present, but it is acting as a huge disincentive for

:20:41. > :20:43.recruitment to our Armed Forces. Who wants to put themselves on the front

:20:44. > :20:49.line in circumstances where a few years down the road, because of

:20:50. > :20:52.so-called human rights lawyers, we will see these young men and women

:20:53. > :20:58.betrayed? And it simply is not right. And this is being realised

:20:59. > :21:04.rather belatedly but with the welcome decision to close down the

:21:05. > :21:08.Iraq historical allegations team. Consider the damage to the morale of

:21:09. > :21:13.our Armed Forces and the consequences this has had with a

:21:14. > :21:16.marked downturn in recruitment and retention. While so-called human

:21:17. > :21:21.rights lawyers get rich with the lucrative returns such cases can

:21:22. > :21:24.bring, mainly from the public purse, the men and women in the front line

:21:25. > :21:30.defending our country find it hard to avoid a sense of betrayal. I have

:21:31. > :21:36.heard that from many of them. All rights thinking people should rail

:21:37. > :21:40.against this. The Stormont House Agreement reached between the

:21:41. > :21:44.Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland made clear there

:21:45. > :21:48.would be no amnesty for terrorist related crimes. And its proposed a

:21:49. > :21:54.new set of institutions to deal with other troubled past. Let me be

:21:55. > :21:57.clear. This party stands by the Stormont House Agreement. We stand

:21:58. > :22:01.by our commitment that we will not accept an amnesty for the

:22:02. > :22:07.terrorists. And we endorse the institutions that have been proposed

:22:08. > :22:12.under that agreement, including a new historical investigations unit,

:22:13. > :22:15.which would have full police powers and would take over the work of the

:22:16. > :22:19.PS and I's legacy investigation Branch. And the responsibility for

:22:20. > :22:22.reinvestigating unsolvable murders linked to the troubles in Northern

:22:23. > :22:27.Ireland. We welcome that unsupported and we believe that the sooner we

:22:28. > :22:33.can get that new institution up and running the better for everyone and

:22:34. > :22:35.especially for the innocent victims. However, the Stormont House

:22:36. > :22:40.Agreement has not yet been implemented. This is due to an

:22:41. > :22:45.impasse that has arisen between the Government and Sinn Fein over

:22:46. > :22:49.national security. It is a ridiculous state of affairs that the

:22:50. > :22:52.political party linked to the largest terrorist organisation

:22:53. > :22:58.responsible for the most murders during the troubles has a veto, has

:22:59. > :23:03.a beta of the fermentation of a policy that would give the innocent

:23:04. > :23:08.victims access to proper investigation and the prospect of

:23:09. > :23:15.justice. Surely in a democracy this is not right. This cannot be right.

:23:16. > :23:17.That Sinn Fein are being handed a veto over proper investigator

:23:18. > :23:22.process into the murders of the people who were killed by the

:23:23. > :23:26.provisional IRA. It is nonsense and when Sinn Fein talk about respect,

:23:27. > :23:33.when they talk about equality, while then let's have some respect for the

:23:34. > :23:37.innocent victims of the IRA. And let's see the Stormont House

:23:38. > :23:47.agreements taken forward and Sinn Fein's veto swept aside.

:23:48. > :23:53.Thank you for giving way and is to apologise I will not be at the end

:23:54. > :24:01.of the debate because Abdou attend a constituency event this evening in

:24:02. > :24:05.memory of some victims. There is a need to build a new process that

:24:06. > :24:12.allows an investigation into those cases that have already went through

:24:13. > :24:15.the historical enquiries team. Otherwise they will be left only

:24:16. > :24:19.with the review and not a new investigation.

:24:20. > :24:24.I think the honourable member for his intervention and support for the

:24:25. > :24:29.institutions that are proposed under the Stormont House Agreement. It is

:24:30. > :24:32.the case that at present, and unfairness to the victims and

:24:33. > :24:36.families who have waited a long time, that the proposal is that the

:24:37. > :24:52.historical investigations unit would pick up where the H E T left.

:24:53. > :24:56.Nevertheless, we support very clearly that if there is new

:24:57. > :25:00.evidence or new evidence gathering techniques that have the potential

:25:01. > :25:04.to lead to a prosecution in the cases already reviewed by the HCT,

:25:05. > :25:10.then of course the historical investigations unit should examine

:25:11. > :25:14.those cases and we have no objection. We believe that all

:25:15. > :25:22.innocent victim should have access to justice and be treated equitably

:25:23. > :25:26.and fairly. In drawing towards a conclusion, can I say that it is

:25:27. > :25:29.important that the Government now proceeds with the Stormont House

:25:30. > :25:32.Agreement. It is important that the Government gets on with publishing

:25:33. > :25:38.the draft legislation to give the innocent victims and others be

:25:39. > :25:42.opportunity to comment on this proposal so that at last we can

:25:43. > :25:48.begin the process of establishing what has been agreed. This means

:25:49. > :25:54.that the brokers will no longer solely be on what the states did. --

:25:55. > :26:00.focus. It will ship the bogeys and it will address the issues that have

:26:01. > :26:04.already been raised in this house about the attempts to rewrite

:26:05. > :26:07.history. Because it means that the IRA and the other terrorist

:26:08. > :26:13.organisations will be put under the spotlight. What they did will be

:26:14. > :26:17.examined and brought to the fore. It is wrong that our retired veterans

:26:18. > :26:21.of the military and the police have to spend their last days looking

:26:22. > :26:26.over their shoulders. We're still waiting for the knock at the door.

:26:27. > :26:28.Whilst at the terrorists to sculpt in the shadows and destroyed

:26:29. > :26:32.countless lives on the streets without a care in the world about

:26:33. > :26:38.the prospect of being pursued for their crimes. That simply is not

:26:39. > :26:45.right. The terrorists must be pursued. They must be made amenable

:26:46. > :26:51.for their crimes. And therefore we do not believe and we will

:26:52. > :26:57.vigorously oppose any attempt to grant an amnesty to any terrorist

:26:58. > :27:01.organisation for what they've done. However, the time is come with the

:27:02. > :27:06.Government to finally do something to protect the men and women who

:27:07. > :27:12.served our country. They were not provided for in the 1998 agreement.

:27:13. > :27:15.Whilst the terrorists well. Special provision was made for the

:27:16. > :27:19.terrorists in 1998 in the form of the early release scheme. And other

:27:20. > :27:25.concessions have been made since then that I outlined earlier in my

:27:26. > :27:31.remarks. But nothing has been done for those who served the crime. And

:27:32. > :27:35.I think that is wrong and I think it needs to be addressed. Therefore we

:27:36. > :27:39.believe that the Government must give urgent consideration to

:27:40. > :27:44.introducing a statute of limitations for soldiers and police officers who

:27:45. > :27:49.face the prospect of prosecution in cases which, and this is very

:27:50. > :27:57.important, in cases which have previously been the subject of a

:27:58. > :28:02.full police investigations. That maybe Clare. We're talking about

:28:03. > :28:06.cases that were previously the subject of police investigation.

:28:07. > :28:11.Cases related to killings and deaths that occurred before 1998. And I

:28:12. > :28:17.think the Government needs to look at this. It is wrong that our

:28:18. > :28:20.veterans are sitting at home wondering if perhaps a third or a

:28:21. > :28:30.fourth investigation is now going to take place into their case, simply

:28:31. > :28:34.because some hot fast thinking make a quick buck human rights lawyer in

:28:35. > :28:37.Belfast things it is a good idea to reopen this case. That is what is

:28:38. > :28:43.going on. That is what is going on here. And therefore we believe it

:28:44. > :28:47.has to be addressed. We can no longer ignore this and certainly, we

:28:48. > :28:51.on the side of the house have not been ignoring it. And we believe

:28:52. > :28:57.that a statute of limitation should not only apply to Northern Ireland

:28:58. > :29:00.but consideration should also be given to other military deployments

:29:01. > :29:06.including Iraq, Kosovo and Dagestan. This is not an amnesty. As each case

:29:07. > :29:13.will previously been the subject of a thorough investigation. It is

:29:14. > :29:16.appropriate and necessary measure to protect the men and women of our

:29:17. > :29:20.Armed Forces from the kind of witch hunts that years after their

:29:21. > :29:28.retirement have left many feeling that their service to this country

:29:29. > :29:35.is neither respected nor valued. I apologise. Perhaps he will forgive

:29:36. > :29:38.me a game for mentioning that in 2013 are published a paper with

:29:39. > :29:43.policies change which address many of these issues and Dewsbury at the

:29:44. > :29:47.absolute essence of it. In this very section that he's speaking about now

:29:48. > :29:50.really touching on the core of it. Because what we are addressing this

:29:51. > :29:56.what are human rights, what really they mean. There surely the rights

:29:57. > :30:00.people to live in peace and dignity and not simply the rights of some to

:30:01. > :30:05.persecute those who have tried to protect others.

:30:06. > :30:09.I thank the honourable member for that very valid intervention. He is

:30:10. > :30:14.a absolutely right and we appreciate the work that he has done in this

:30:15. > :30:19.field and his commitment to its former comrades. In conclusion, we

:30:20. > :30:27.are Northern Ireland... Of course. Just to clarify. His

:30:28. > :30:32.proposal around the statute of limitations, would that involve a

:30:33. > :30:37.wood-mac police officers are Northern Ireland as well? I should

:30:38. > :30:40.said at the start I do welcome the debate and welcoming for bringing

:30:41. > :30:48.this forward. The answer is yes. The police are

:30:49. > :30:51.not covered by the provisions of the... And the concessions that have

:30:52. > :30:56.been made to the terrorists. Neither they should be. We do not see any

:30:57. > :31:00.moral or legal equivalent between the Armed Forces, the police and

:31:01. > :31:03.illegal criminal terrorist organisations. We don't want them to

:31:04. > :31:06.be treated the same but we believe that our police officers and our

:31:07. > :31:13.soldiers and our veterans should be treated fairly and they are not

:31:14. > :31:16.treated fairly. I repeat what I said in a recent debate in Westminster

:31:17. > :31:21.will I referred to terrorist atrocities that have been committed

:31:22. > :31:28.in Northern Ireland and across a busy United Kingdom. They include

:31:29. > :31:32.the Kingsmill massacre, McGurk 's bar, the hotel bombing, bloody

:31:33. > :31:37.Friday in Belfast. The city to coach Bob, the Birmingham pub bombings,

:31:38. > :31:43.the narrow water atrocity were members of the Parachute Regiment

:31:44. > :31:47.were truly cuts down in cold blood. The grand Hotel Brighton for our

:31:48. > :31:55.very democracy was attacked by the provisional IRA. The police station,

:31:56. > :32:03.the warmer more real, the bus bomb, the Shankill Road grey steel, and

:32:04. > :32:14.many others that I will not list at that were equally atrocious. No one

:32:15. > :32:18.can ever sanitise this horror. No one can ever sanitise this humanity.

:32:19. > :32:22.There will be no rewriting of history that allows the exoneration

:32:23. > :32:27.of the evil men and women who are out to commit these atrocities in

:32:28. > :32:31.cold blood. These are acts of terrorism. And they can never be

:32:32. > :32:37.regarded as anything other than acts of terrorism. I support the efforts

:32:38. > :32:43.to bring a real and lasting peace to my country. I want that. My comrade

:32:44. > :32:47.Sierra, some of whom served in our Armed Forces, others have seen

:32:48. > :32:52.constituents cuts down in cold blood, we all want to see a

:32:53. > :32:57.meaningful lasting peace in Northern Ireland. We want that for the next

:32:58. > :33:01.generation as well as for our own. As a former soldier of the Ulster

:33:02. > :33:06.Defence Regiment, proud to have served in that regiment, the largest

:33:07. > :33:09.regiment of the British Army that fought alongside other military

:33:10. > :33:14.units, alongside the Royal Ulster Constabulary with great courage and

:33:15. > :33:18.at a huge cast during the longest running military operation in the

:33:19. > :33:22.history of the British Army, operation Banner, we owe it to those

:33:23. > :33:29.men and women. We over to them to protect them.

:33:30. > :33:33.It is disturbed at the comments that were attributed to justice we're

:33:34. > :33:37.whose looking at some of these legacy cases, when he talked about

:33:38. > :33:44.the Ulster Defence Regiment are simply been setup to stop the

:33:45. > :33:48.members from doing worse in society? I have to say that as a bomber

:33:49. > :33:52.member of the Ulster Defence Regiment my father, who served for

:33:53. > :33:59.over 25 years in the bud Regiment, my brother who served in that

:34:00. > :34:03.regiment, comrade I patrolled alongside to work at stunning cold

:34:04. > :34:07.blood by the provisional IRA, I feel insulted, I feel deeply insulted by

:34:08. > :34:14.the suggestion by a justice of the High Court of Northern Ireland that

:34:15. > :34:19.somehow the raison onto true of the Ulster Defence Regiment was to keep

:34:20. > :34:23.people out of trouble. My only motivation was to stop trouble. My

:34:24. > :34:26.only motivation was to bring to boot those who were engaged in trouble. I

:34:27. > :34:33.only motivation was to protect the community. Including Mr justice

:34:34. > :34:40.we're who were the targets of terrorism. This part is not prepared

:34:41. > :34:45.to stand back and see other former comrade is vilified. We're not

:34:46. > :34:49.prepared to stand back and see the security forces and the police

:34:50. > :34:53.hounded for serving their country. And standing in the gap between

:34:54. > :35:06.democracy and tyranny, they defended ours, now we must defend them.

:35:07. > :35:14.Thank you very much, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this

:35:15. > :35:22.important debate, and can I be clear from the outset, Operation Banner,

:35:23. > :35:25.as the House is aware, lasted for nearly 30 years. It was the longest

:35:26. > :35:34.single continuous deployment of the Armed Forces in British military

:35:35. > :35:37.history. During that period, over 250,000 people served. The Armed

:35:38. > :35:43.Forces and the RUC combines lost over 1000 men and women to

:35:44. > :35:48.terrorism. There were over 7000 awards for bravery and the Royal

:35:49. > :35:55.Ulster Constabulary was rightly awarded the George Cross. So is this

:35:56. > :36:04.government's Northern Ireland manifesto at the last election made

:36:05. > :36:07.clear, we suck salute the remarkable dedication and courage of the RUC

:36:08. > :36:13.and Armed Forces in defending the rule of law and ensuring the future

:36:14. > :36:21.of the Northern Ireland would only ever be determined by democracy and

:36:22. > :36:24.consent. Quite simply without their contribution, what we know today as

:36:25. > :36:31.the Northern Ireland peace process would never have happened. All of us

:36:32. > :36:41.across this House and throughout our United Kingdom owes them a huge debt

:36:42. > :36:43.of gratitude. Just as we owe them an enormous debt for the work and

:36:44. > :36:48.sacrifice they've made in other parts of the world referred to in

:36:49. > :36:54.the motion before Rose, in Kosovo, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Wherever

:36:55. > :37:00.they operate we quite rightly regard our Armed Forces as the best in the

:37:01. > :37:08.world. The government asks them to put their lives on the line in order

:37:09. > :37:12.to defend us and our way of life. In return, they rightly expect the

:37:13. > :37:15.fullest support from the government and that is something that this

:37:16. > :37:18.government, through my right honourable friend the Defence

:37:19. > :37:24.Secretary and his colleagues, is determined to provide. I'm very

:37:25. > :37:29.grateful to my right honourable friend. Would he agree with me that

:37:30. > :37:33.support should extend to the costs of the provision of engaging a

:37:34. > :37:37.solicitor to advise those who have been sent letters by the MoD

:37:38. > :37:43.inviting them to unburden themselves about the events of 30 or 40 years

:37:44. > :37:46.ago in order to assist the police with their enquiries? I'm sure my

:37:47. > :37:49.right honourable friend would not want those individuals to

:37:50. > :37:53.incriminate themselves inadvertently or incriminate those they were

:37:54. > :38:00.operating with, all those years ago. If he is correct in suggesting that

:38:01. > :38:05.we should be supporting our veterans who served in Operation Banner

:38:06. > :38:08.properly, then that must surely extend to finding the cost of

:38:09. > :38:14.engaging solicitors to advise those individuals properly and

:38:15. > :38:18.appropriately. Well, the government has always acknowledged its ongoing

:38:19. > :38:21.duty of care to our former soldiers. Our policy is that where veterans

:38:22. > :38:25.face allegations concerning actions they took in the course of their

:38:26. > :38:31.duties, taxpayer funded legal support including council where

:38:32. > :38:36.appropriate will be provided for as long as its needed and in addition

:38:37. > :38:38.I'm advised the Ministry of Defence can assist veterans with welfare

:38:39. > :38:43.support either directly or in partnership with other agencies such

:38:44. > :38:46.as combat stress, depending on the veteran's individual needs

:38:47. > :38:54.circumstances. We will never accept any kind... I will give way. This is

:38:55. > :38:58.very important. He has said if allegations have been made. These

:38:59. > :39:02.letters, as I understand it, contain no allegations but will be

:39:03. > :39:05.disturbing nevertheless to these predominantly elderly gentleman that

:39:06. > :39:09.receive them and they will need to have proper advice on whether to

:39:10. > :39:12.unburden themselves in the way that is being suggested, or whether to

:39:13. > :39:16.ignore those letters. I think that advice can only come from a

:39:17. > :39:19.solicitor. My question to him is whether the MoD will provide the

:39:20. > :39:24.costs, the provision of that legal advice? All I can say if I will

:39:25. > :39:29.certainly take his point away and discussed that with colleagues from

:39:30. > :39:33.the Ministry of Defence to seek clarity for him and also to seek

:39:34. > :39:39.clarity for those who may be in receipt of those letters. But I

:39:40. > :39:45.think I need to also be clear to the House that we will never accept any

:39:46. > :39:50.kind of moral equivalence between those who sought to uphold the rule

:39:51. > :39:54.of law and terrorists who sought to destroy it. For others, politically

:39:55. > :40:03.motivated violence in Northern Ireland was never justify dashed to

:40:04. > :40:08.-- for others. Whether it was carried out by Republicans

:40:09. > :40:10.loyalists. We will never accept any attempt to place the state at the

:40:11. > :40:18.heart of every atrocity or somehow to displace the responsibility for

:40:19. > :40:22.where actions may lie. I give way. I agree wholeheartedly with the point

:40:23. > :40:25.he's making, however, yesterday at the dispatch box, the Prime Minister

:40:26. > :40:30.outlined what can only be described as the new gold standard for

:40:31. > :40:36.investigations. She made four commitments and its recorded in

:40:37. > :40:40.columns 100 and 104 Ross today's Hansard, where the system will

:40:41. > :40:45.reflect that 90% of all killings were carried out by terrorists, that

:40:46. > :40:50.there would be wrong -- would be wrong to treat terrorists more

:40:51. > :40:53.favourably than soldiers or police officers, that the investigators

:40:54. > :40:55.bodies have a duty to be fair, balanced and proportionate, and that

:40:56. > :41:01.no disproportionate investigations will take place. How will the

:41:02. > :41:04.government give effect to that gold standard that we welcome? The point

:41:05. > :41:08.is the honourable gentleman raises are very much embodied within the

:41:09. > :41:15.Stormont House agreement and the legacy bodies and institutions that

:41:16. > :41:18.his honourable friend has referenced in his opening contribution, and if

:41:19. > :41:23.I may I will come onto those issues in greater detail later on in my

:41:24. > :41:28.speech. But I do want to underline that we will not accept attempts to

:41:29. > :41:33.demonstrate the contribution of the security forces and seek to give any

:41:34. > :41:37.kind of legitimacy to violence. But being the best in the world does

:41:38. > :41:41.mean operating to the Verizon -- very highest standards. We expect

:41:42. > :41:45.nothing less and I know our Armed Forces would not have it any other

:41:46. > :41:50.way. As the noble lord spirit but it, the need to act lawfully is not

:41:51. > :41:55.aside consideration for the Armed Forces, it's an integral part of the

:41:56. > :41:58.ethos and training. We do believe in the rule of law and the police and

:41:59. > :42:03.Armed Forces are charged with upholding the law. They cannot

:42:04. > :42:05.operate above it or outside of it and where there is evidence of

:42:06. > :42:11.criminality should be investigated without fear or favour. But in our

:42:12. > :42:18.view what characterised the overwhelming majority of those who

:42:19. > :42:23.served was discipline, integrity, restraint, professionalism and

:42:24. > :42:30.bravery, and we should be proud of them. As my right honourable friend

:42:31. > :42:38.Madame Deputy Speaker my writable friend... They were subject of

:42:39. > :42:46.course to the rule of law and indeed there were soldiers, notably those

:42:47. > :42:49.sergeants and the commander of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders,

:42:50. > :42:53.who are actually charged with murder of the two civil rights campaigners

:42:54. > :42:57.in 1981 and convicted. It was subject to the rule of law and many

:42:58. > :43:01.were investigated and some were actually prosecuted and convicted. I

:43:02. > :43:07.think that my honourable friend makes that point on the upholding of

:43:08. > :43:14.the rule of law and obviously I will come back to what we judge the right

:43:15. > :43:19.next steps in terms of balance, proportionality and indeed giving

:43:20. > :43:24.effect to new arrangements to deal with the legacy issues of the past

:43:25. > :43:29.embodied within the Stormont House agreement but Madame Deputy Speaker

:43:30. > :43:33.the Prime Minister also made clear in the house yesterday, it's also

:43:34. > :43:37.appalling when people try to make a business out of trying to drag our

:43:38. > :43:42.brave troops through the courts. In that context the motion before the

:43:43. > :43:44.House welcomes the government's decision to wind up the Iraq

:43:45. > :43:50.Historic Allegations Team, following the solicitors' disciplinary

:43:51. > :43:54.tribunal hearing and the consequent decision to strike off Phil Shiner.

:43:55. > :44:00.This called into question the credibility of a large number of

:44:01. > :44:04.IHAT's remaining caseload, which will now revert to the Royal Navy

:44:05. > :44:08.police. To be clear, the government has a legal obligation to ensure

:44:09. > :44:12.that criminal allegations against the Armed Forces are investigated,

:44:13. > :44:18.but we also remain determined to ensure that our legal system is not

:44:19. > :44:22.abused, as it clearly was by Mr Shiner. Falsely to impugn the

:44:23. > :44:26.reputation of our Armed Forces and we should all support the devout --

:44:27. > :44:31.decisive action taken by my right honourable friend the Defence

:44:32. > :44:34.Secretary in this case. My right honourable friend is making an

:44:35. > :44:39.absolutely essential point about the rule of law as it must be practised

:44:40. > :44:45.by honourable members of the legal profession and he is highlighting,

:44:46. > :44:48.as I know he's a solicitor himself, the important role the solicitors

:44:49. > :44:53.disciplinary tribunal did in finding this man guilty of deception of the

:44:54. > :44:58.most abject kind. Would he please comment very slightly on how he

:44:59. > :45:06.feels the shadow Attorney General can possibly still continue to

:45:07. > :45:10.defend this extraordinary individual and claim, and yet claim, that she

:45:11. > :45:15.will represent Her Majesty's government, should that party ever

:45:16. > :45:20.be elected. It's important in that context to underline what the

:45:21. > :45:28.solicitors disciplinary tribunal hearing resulted in two and that was

:45:29. > :45:33.the decision to strike off Phil Shiner and the credibility of a

:45:34. > :45:38.large number of IHAT's remaining caseload is now firmly called into

:45:39. > :45:43.question and I think it's important that we should respect, recognise

:45:44. > :45:53.and uphold that determination by the solicitor's disciplinary tribunal. I

:45:54. > :45:56.thank the Secretary of State for giving way because he's touching on

:45:57. > :45:59.a very important point of transparency and fairness in all of

:46:00. > :46:04.these investigations. The public prosecutor in Northern Ireland was

:46:05. > :46:09.formerly the solicitor for Sinn Fein. He handed in the names of the

:46:10. > :46:13.on the run people on behalf of Sinn Fein and the government dealt with

:46:14. > :46:16.that matter and of course this matter was brought to the attention

:46:17. > :46:19.of the Northern Ireland affairs committee when it investigated the

:46:20. > :46:24.case. Does he agree with me that given a perceived conflict of

:46:25. > :46:28.interest that the director would clearly have in his knowledge about

:46:29. > :46:33.senior Republicans and their involvement in very serious and

:46:34. > :46:40.organised crimes, should resign himself now from all further parts

:46:41. > :46:46.of this matter? I'm afraid I don't agree with the honourable gentleman

:46:47. > :46:49.in that regard. I know that the Public Prosecution Service of

:46:50. > :46:53.Northern Ireland has pursued prosecutions against a number of

:46:54. > :46:58.individuals for serious terrorist crimes during the Troubles and

:46:59. > :47:02.continues to do so, as well as obviously pursuing other cases. And

:47:03. > :47:06.I think it is wrong to suggest that the PPS is in some way only applying

:47:07. > :47:10.on one side all the other. I know that there are strong feelings in

:47:11. > :47:16.this regard and I recognise that, but I think it would be wrong to

:47:17. > :47:21.personalise this in this way and it's important in terms of upholding

:47:22. > :47:24.the rule of law that we should also uphold the independence of the

:47:25. > :47:28.police and the independence of prosecutors beyond that as well

:47:29. > :47:33.stocked so I think it is important to frame it in that context but also

:47:34. > :47:39.recognising yes, the strongly held views that people may have. I'm

:47:40. > :47:42.grateful to my right honourable friend. But will he convey a message

:47:43. > :47:48.to this individual to say that sending out letters to organs of the

:47:49. > :47:55.press in this country that any criticism of him will be met by

:47:56. > :47:59.legal action is completely unacceptable. He's publicly

:48:00. > :48:03.accountable. He's publicly paid. If we want to criticise him, we are

:48:04. > :48:07.going to criticise him, and he is not going to resort to law to try to

:48:08. > :48:13.shut down newspapers which report our criticism. There's always the

:48:14. > :48:17.right of complete free speech in this House and clearly the right

:48:18. > :48:23.that we uphold democracy and the freedom of the press. I think we do

:48:24. > :48:27.though need to be careful in our comments when we seek to personalise

:48:28. > :48:31.matters. We know the consequences of that from the past. Therefore,

:48:32. > :48:35.whilst again I recognise the strongly held views that are held, I

:48:36. > :48:40.do underline that sense of independence of the prosecution

:48:41. > :48:44.service, the independence of the police, that is something that we

:48:45. > :48:49.should absolutely treasure, whilst of course holding people to account

:48:50. > :48:55.and being able to comment publicly, and that freedom that we do have,

:48:56. > :48:58.that freedom of the rule of law and the importance of that, but equally

:48:59. > :49:04.the freedom of... The freedom of the press and the freedom of this place

:49:05. > :49:07.to debate matters robustly and vigorously. I know that there are

:49:08. > :49:11.many members who want to contribute in this debate, so I will take some

:49:12. > :49:15.further interventions, but I would like to make some further progress.

:49:16. > :49:20.As many right honourable members are well aware, I will make some

:49:21. > :49:25.progress. Addressing the legacy of the pass has been one of the most

:49:26. > :49:30.difficult issues since the Belfast Agreement nearly 19 years ago -- the

:49:31. > :49:33.legacy of the past. What is clear today, as the debate highlights, is

:49:34. > :49:40.the current structures in place are simply not delivering for anyone,

:49:41. > :49:44.including victims and survivors, on all sides, who suffered most during

:49:45. > :49:49.the Troubles. The rawness of the continuing pain and emotion of

:49:50. > :49:53.families and survivors is stark and yet the need to make progress in

:49:54. > :49:58.this area is absolutely clear. The legacy of the past continues to cast

:49:59. > :50:02.a shadow over our society in Northern Ireland. It retains the

:50:03. > :50:07.ability to destabilise politics and it has the capacity to be used by

:50:08. > :50:11.those who wish to fuel division and promote terrorism, to achieve their

:50:12. > :50:15.objectives. Of course, people are always going to retain their own

:50:16. > :50:19.views on the past, which will be shaped by their own experiences of

:50:20. > :50:21.it and I acknowledge the government's view of the troubles

:50:22. > :50:27.will not be shared by everyone, nor vice versa. But where we should

:50:28. > :50:30.strive to reach consensus is on structures needed to address it and

:50:31. > :50:44.in a way that helps move Northern Ireland forward.

:50:45. > :50:54.The office of police ombudsman has to deal with allegations of

:50:55. > :50:59.historical... The PSN I have two devote substantial resorts as to

:51:00. > :51:08.dealing with historical cases. Taken as a whole, I have to recognise

:51:09. > :51:11.concerns that the current mechanisms focus does what with the cases

:51:12. > :51:15.involving the state. As a result leaving many victims of terrorism

:51:16. > :51:19.feeling ignored. None of this is to criticise any individuals, not

:51:20. > :51:23.please the police and prosecuting individuals, all of whom uphold the

:51:24. > :51:31.law independently of Government and I support them in their difficult

:51:32. > :51:37.work. We do see the shocking case of a police officer about to go to

:51:38. > :51:42.work, about to serve their community discovering that a device had been

:51:43. > :51:49.planted underneath their car. The consequences of that could be

:51:50. > :51:52.absolutely horrific and I think it underlines the bravery, the

:51:53. > :51:58.determination, the sheer public service that officers within the PSN

:51:59. > :52:06.I and others do day in day out to uphold the rule of law, to keep our

:52:07. > :52:10.communities safe and the shallowness, the evil of terrorism.

:52:11. > :52:13.That would seek to undermine that. And I know the house absolutely

:52:14. > :52:21.would underline that strong message of support to them and the work that

:52:22. > :52:26.they do. Father it is a recognition that is widely accepted that we need

:52:27. > :52:29.new and better structures for addressing these issues. The status

:52:30. > :52:32.quo is not sustainable. The Government has a duty to seek better

:52:33. > :52:37.outcomes for victims and survivors and we need legally robust

:52:38. > :52:41.mechanisms that enable us to comply with their international obligations

:52:42. > :52:45.to investigate criminal allegations. The Stormont House Agreement was

:52:46. > :52:49.about that in 2014 following 11 weeks of intensive cross-party talks

:52:50. > :52:53.with the UK Government, the five largest parties in the Northern

:52:54. > :52:55.Ireland assembly, and the Irish Government on matters falling within

:52:56. > :53:01.their responsibility. The agreement contains the most far-reaching set

:53:02. > :53:05.of proposals yet for addressing the legacy of Northern Ireland's

:53:06. > :53:09.troubled past. The historical investigations unit, the independent

:53:10. > :53:12.commission for information retrieval, the limitation and

:53:13. > :53:16.reconciliation group and an oral history archive. A number of

:53:17. > :53:20.different options were discussed during those talks. Amnesty were

:53:21. > :53:25.quickly dismissed by all the participants and are not the policy

:53:26. > :53:29.of this Government. We believe that the so-called legacy body set out in

:53:30. > :53:34.the Stormont House Agreement continued to provide the most

:53:35. > :53:38.effective way of making progress on this hugely sensitive but hugely

:53:39. > :53:43.important issue. Delivering the Stormont House Agreement including

:53:44. > :53:47.the legacy bodies and also reforming legacy inquests was a key Northern

:53:48. > :53:51.Ireland manifesto pledge for the Conservative Government at the last

:53:52. > :54:00.election. And we remain committed to this. But in doing so, I am also

:54:01. > :54:04.committed to ensure the need to ensure that former soldiers and

:54:05. > :54:10.police opposite is not unfairly treated or disproportionately

:54:11. > :54:14.investigated. That is why any legislation we bring forward will

:54:15. > :54:18.explicitly set out that all of these bodies, including the historical

:54:19. > :54:22.investigations unit will be under legal obligations to operate in ways

:54:23. > :54:30.that are fair, balanced and crew should be proportionate.

:54:31. > :54:37.I will give way. The house will be greatly reassured with the

:54:38. > :54:43.Government's concern about the lack of proportionality on path of the

:54:44. > :54:45.authorities in Northern Ireland but can't they understand that the

:54:46. > :54:52.disparity between the two is overwhelming. One whereabouts of

:54:53. > :54:56.terrorists hiding in the shadows dressed not in military uniform. The

:54:57. > :55:04.other trying to enforce the Queens peace in Northern Ireland. And all

:55:05. > :55:09.the incidences involving them are meticulously recorded. You cannot go

:55:10. > :55:17.to the National Archives and find the IRA's records of the people they

:55:18. > :55:21.brutally murdered. I absolutely recognise that sense of

:55:22. > :55:26.justice and the need for justice on all sides, which I think is

:55:27. > :55:30.absolutely underpinned in terms of what my honourable friend has just

:55:31. > :55:34.said. And yes, there are meticulously records. Meticulous

:55:35. > :55:38.records of the investigation of cases of terrorists that should be

:55:39. > :55:43.looked up properly. That is part and parcel of what I am saying on the

:55:44. > :55:47.establishment of the story go investigations unit. The terrorists

:55:48. > :55:51.were responsible for 90% of all deaths in the troubles and any

:55:52. > :56:01.investigative processes half to reflect that.

:56:02. > :56:05.I will give way. Would my right honourable friend, who is the most

:56:06. > :56:10.tolerant about taking interventions, except that if 10% of the people

:56:11. > :56:16.killed were killed by security forces, bearing in mind that all the

:56:17. > :56:23.other 90% of killings were murderers, even if one in 20, even

:56:24. > :56:26.if as many as one in ten of the killings by security forces were

:56:27. > :56:33.murder, which is exceptionally unlikely, a proportionate rating

:56:34. > :56:37.would be won in 100, not one in ten. That is absolutely why the Stormont

:56:38. > :56:43.House Agreement had at its heart those messages that have already

:56:44. > :56:48.delivered of fairness, balance, of proportionality. And its caseload

:56:49. > :56:53.will contain some of the most not warriors atrocities resulting in the

:56:54. > :57:01.deaths of our Armed Forces. Such is at one point in 1979 by Cawley in

:57:02. > :57:07.1998. They will look at cases in chronological order meaning that all

:57:08. > :57:13.cases will be investigated, so there will be no prioritising. Any

:57:14. > :57:20.investigation would include specific tests that must be met in order that

:57:21. > :57:24.a previously completed case is reopened for investigation. This

:57:25. > :57:31.will mean specifically that the new and credible evidence that was not

:57:32. > :57:34.previously available to the authorities is needed before the age

:57:35. > :57:40.site you will reopen any closed case. We're also looking at ways of

:57:41. > :57:43.ensuring that where prosecutors do take place, terrorists are not

:57:44. > :57:47.treated more favourably than former soldiers and police officers put up

:57:48. > :57:51.the body these will be time limited to five years to ensure that this

:57:52. > :57:56.process will not be open-ended, helping Northern Ireland to move

:57:57. > :57:59.forward. Turning to the Stormont House Agreement into detailed

:58:00. > :58:04.legislation has been and continues to be a long and necessarily complex

:58:05. > :58:08.process but a great deal of progress has been made in building the

:58:09. > :58:13.consensus necessary to bring legislation before this house. And I

:58:14. > :58:15.believe that with hard work on all sides the outstanding areas of

:58:16. > :58:22.disagreement are entirely Bridger bowl. In September I sit at my

:58:23. > :58:27.intention to move the process to a more public bays. I had hoped that

:58:28. > :58:30.this would have taken place by now but a continuing lack of consensus

:58:31. > :58:36.and the political situation at Stormont have delayed this from

:58:37. > :58:40.happening. But I remain committed to giving the public a say in these

:58:41. > :58:45.proposed bodies and loading confidence in them from across the

:58:46. > :58:48.community. So I want to take that forward as soon as possible after

:58:49. > :58:51.the Northern Ireland assembly election a week ago, so that we can

:58:52. > :58:55.make progress quickly. But any approach to the past must be there,

:58:56. > :59:00.balanced and proportionate. It must have victims and survivors at its

:59:01. > :59:06.heart and it must be consistent with our obligations to those who served

:59:07. > :59:09.and into many cases, sacrificed so much to bring about the relative

:59:10. > :59:21.peace and stability that Northern Ireland enjoys today.

:59:22. > :59:24.May I congratulate the Secretary of State for an absolute the impression

:59:25. > :59:29.presentation and I think you spoke for all of us in this house and

:59:30. > :59:35.outside in his words. His words were right, powerful and important and

:59:36. > :59:39.they were proportionate. I also say that today we may be speaking of the

:59:40. > :59:46.past but the issues that we're discussing other not gone away the

:59:47. > :59:48.past may be... Those things may have happened but there are still

:59:49. > :59:56.problems today and the incidence referred to earlier one today

:59:57. > :59:59.yesterday with a bomb exploding shows us, reminds us that what we do

:00:00. > :00:03.today has a relevance. We're not just looking backwards, we're

:00:04. > :00:06.looking at the current situation and we have to look forward to the

:00:07. > :00:10.limitation of Stormont House to ensure that there are no more

:00:11. > :00:13.incidences like this and that terrifying litany of horror that the

:00:14. > :00:19.right honourable gentleman rightly enunciated and placed on record. We

:00:20. > :00:27.must never begin to approach that scale of terror and horror again.

:00:28. > :00:31.All of us are united, surely, in about. Yesterday it was said that

:00:32. > :00:36.the police officer had a very lucky escape will do better is the reality

:00:37. > :00:42.of it. This date, today, those people who have worn the uniform of

:00:43. > :00:52.the lines on the -- who put their lives on the line... We actually

:00:53. > :00:58.welcome the DUP motion. The wording is very sensible. How could we argue

:00:59. > :01:01.with the fact that all processes for investigating and prosecuting legacy

:01:02. > :01:05.cases are balanced and fair? We would not oppose that. We support

:01:06. > :01:09.that. We think it is absolutely right about pink Barbie from me to

:01:10. > :01:13.criticise the wording of the DUP motion but I think that when the

:01:14. > :01:17.Secretary of State added the word abortion as well that was

:01:18. > :01:22.significant. It is also important that we raise these matters on the

:01:23. > :01:25.floor of the house. There is still a tendency in some parts to think that

:01:26. > :01:28.what happens in Northern Ireland happens in the wings rather than on

:01:29. > :01:33.the centrestage. There are still some people who think that Northern

:01:34. > :01:38.Ireland is settled. It is over, it is finished. And it is a small part

:01:39. > :01:41.of the United Kingdom and a long way geographically, politically, from us

:01:42. > :01:46.here in Westminster. I pay credit to all members, all members to bring

:01:47. > :01:50.Northern Ireland should business to the floor of the house was it must

:01:51. > :01:54.be done. We have an absolute duty to consider these matters at every

:01:55. > :01:58.opportunity and on many occasions I've heard speeches on the subject

:01:59. > :02:01.in this house which would stand the test of any of the great

:02:02. > :02:06.parliamentary speeches and we've ever heard. It is that portable stop

:02:07. > :02:09.it is crucial issue. Today is an odd day in that the eyes of the

:02:10. > :02:21.political establishment may be on other places would have. I think it

:02:22. > :02:25.is it is almost irresistible to draw the house's attention to the extreme

:02:26. > :02:30.irony of today's times of London newspaper which describes the

:02:31. > :02:45.renewables heat incentive as wasting ?450 million in GB. A year, as its

:02:46. > :02:53.rugby set by the honourable member. The temptation is there and it

:02:54. > :02:58.cannot be denied that he was the person who came up with this idea

:02:59. > :03:00.and I have to say that those of us here have around Scherer of

:03:01. > :03:07.responsibility for not making more of an issue of it at the time. And

:03:08. > :03:10.the almost... We begin to understand why this was so attractive and

:03:11. > :03:16.Stormont at the particular time. I see from today's paper that Mr Hume

:03:17. > :03:21.is the European chairman of US supplier of wood pellets I leave

:03:22. > :03:28.those words hiding in the air, slowly smouldering in the Drax power

:03:29. > :03:32.station is tonnes and tonnes of Canadian forests are shipped up,

:03:33. > :03:40.pelleted and brought over here. But we must move on. For only one I

:03:41. > :03:46.happily give way. The revolution in today's Times,

:03:47. > :03:52.outlandish as it might seem, hasn't led to a crisis of Government here,

:03:53. > :03:56.hasn't led to in-depth investigation teams by the BBC to try and

:03:57. > :04:00.establish guilt before any investigation has taken place. And

:04:01. > :04:03.for whatever reason there seems to be double standards with some

:04:04. > :04:10.broadcasters when dealing with waste of public money.

:04:11. > :04:14.How tempting it would be to follow the honourable gentleman down that

:04:15. > :04:19.Primrose Path that he is leading the innocent parliamentarian, but I fear

:04:20. > :04:24.I have known him longer than 30 and I were in the house and I am able on

:04:25. > :04:30.this occasion to resist his blandishments. Which I will do so.

:04:31. > :04:37.However, I will also, on the subject of resistance I will give way.

:04:38. > :04:41.When the same is Hume Tech came to Northern Ireland 120 words were

:04:42. > :04:48.taken out of it which was the cap and that was the reason we've now

:04:49. > :04:52.got Stormont. May I crave the house's indulgence

:04:53. > :04:57.and apologise for actually diverging us from what is an extremely

:04:58. > :05:01.important issue? As we are talking about issues of Northern Ireland and

:05:02. > :05:05.March the 2nd is crucial and quite clearly there is a causal linkage

:05:06. > :05:10.there, I think it is quite reasonable to mention it. It is

:05:11. > :05:19.equally reasonable to move on from that. Can I just say, as I was

:05:20. > :05:23.saying earlier, we are not opposing the motion. Can we try to get some

:05:24. > :05:26.facts right? There was an enormous amount of statistical evidence that

:05:27. > :05:30.has been thrown about. We heard yesterday the Prime Minister at the

:05:31. > :05:34.dispatch box making comments about the various percentages and

:05:35. > :05:39.proportion numbers. The PSNI as of this money said that they are

:05:40. > :05:46.investigating 1118 cases that are being currently investigated of

:05:47. > :05:51.which 530 are attributed to republican paramilitaries, 271 to

:05:52. > :05:58.loyalist paramilitaries, 354 to security forces and 33 unknown.

:05:59. > :06:08.That the percentage of 32%. In many ways that is not the issue. It's not

:06:09. > :06:13.just the fact there are 55 detectives working today, in four

:06:14. > :06:18.teams, on this very issue, but it's also the fact that once we start to

:06:19. > :06:22.break these things down and say this site with more responsible than

:06:23. > :06:27.that, we can make those points and as politicians we have a duty to do

:06:28. > :06:31.so, but the past has to be looked at objectively and in terms of utter

:06:32. > :06:35.clarity. We had to investigate every aspect. We heard the honourable

:06:36. > :06:40.gentleman saying there may be a tiny percentage, that's his analysis, of

:06:41. > :06:44.murders committed by people wearing uniform. Horrifying though that

:06:45. > :06:49.sounds. Even if there were, with the higher duty that people who wear the

:06:50. > :06:54.Queen's uniform have, each one of those must be investigated. That's

:06:55. > :06:58.the key thing. Everybody, everything must be investigated. There can be

:06:59. > :07:06.no concealed areas or untouched dark corners, we have to look into every

:07:07. > :07:12.single part of the last 30 years. The Shadow minister will accept that

:07:13. > :07:16.one of the only places in Northern Ireland of a miscarriage of justice

:07:17. > :07:21.that resulted in people who have been charged with murder being

:07:22. > :07:27.released and exonerated were three former Ulster Defence Regiment

:07:28. > :07:31.soldiers known as the Armagh four case, and that alone removed from

:07:32. > :07:36.the books about 25% of the allegations against the Ulster

:07:37. > :07:42.Defence Regiment and that shoot -- that too should be reflected. I bow

:07:43. > :07:46.to the honourable gentleman, he knows far more about this subject

:07:47. > :07:49.than I, and he lived through it in a way that I can never claim to have

:07:50. > :07:55.that approximate relationship with. That's not necessarily the issue.

:07:56. > :07:57.It's not about whether a group of people were removed from a

:07:58. > :08:02.particular list, a particular statistical and non-Malay, what we

:08:03. > :08:06.are talking about a is firstly a fair and proportionate investigation

:08:07. > :08:10.into every aspect of the Troubles, secondly, how best to progress

:08:11. > :08:14.matters to take us forward to bring the Stormont House agreement

:08:15. > :08:18.forward, and thirdly and most important, to build on the peace

:08:19. > :08:25.process that has as its central component of that coming to terms,

:08:26. > :08:28.one second, it's not me that's popular, it's the words that the

:08:29. > :08:32.honourable members have to say that are needed to be heard by the House,

:08:33. > :08:36.but can we please try to concentrate on that issue, which is why on this

:08:37. > :08:41.side of the House we endorse and support the words that have been

:08:42. > :08:45.made in the DUP motion. I believe the honourable gentleman for

:08:46. > :08:48.Aldershot was on his feet first. I'm grateful to him for giving way.

:08:49. > :08:55.There needs to be Fenners, but will he understand there's a widespread

:08:56. > :08:58.and growing feeling across the house that these investigations in

:08:59. > :09:02.Northern Ireland are not being fair, that they are disproportionate, and

:09:03. > :09:05.whilst Mike right honourable friend the Secretary of State said we have

:09:06. > :09:10.a free press in this country the fact is that the law firm of

:09:11. > :09:15.Campbell and care are sending out letters to newspapers in this

:09:16. > :09:19.country is saying that if they report any criticism which they

:09:20. > :09:21.perceive to be critical of the impartiality of the authorities in

:09:22. > :09:29.Northern Ireland, legal proceedings will pursue. Therefore that which I

:09:30. > :09:33.am saying in this House is not being reported newspapers in my

:09:34. > :09:38.constituency, because of fear of prosecution from Northern Ireland.

:09:39. > :09:42.Therefore will he agree that if fairness is to be seen to be being

:09:43. > :09:46.carried out in Northern Ireland, then they've got to tolerate

:09:47. > :09:50.criticism of the way they are conducting these investigations. The

:09:51. > :09:54.honourable gentleman has ventilated those points and made them again and

:09:55. > :09:58.his voice will be heard. We are not here to kick the legal profession,

:09:59. > :10:02.although that's all so tempting. Why are here hopefully to move on from

:10:03. > :10:07.that. I think the issue with that particular individual who has been

:10:08. > :10:10.named, that was then. What we're talking about today is something far

:10:11. > :10:16.more important. It's going forward. I give way. I thank him for giving

:10:17. > :10:22.way and would he agree with me that the most pressing issue in all of

:10:23. > :10:26.this debate is the need for not only temperate language but on the far

:10:27. > :10:31.side of the selection that not only do we have political institutions up

:10:32. > :10:33.and running but that there are parallel negotiations that bring a

:10:34. > :10:39.conclusion to all of this, because the one thing that victims wanted

:10:40. > :10:44.closure, because there's too many people in pain in Northern Ireland

:10:45. > :10:51.and young people want to move on and they want to move on in terms of

:10:52. > :10:55.dealing with health, education and the economy, because those are the

:10:56. > :11:01.pressing issues that are facing is day and daily. Not for the first

:11:02. > :11:05.time the honourable lady from South Downs speaks an enormous amount of

:11:06. > :11:09.words that should be our watchword words that should be our watchword

:11:10. > :11:14.for the rest of this debate today. We have to move forward. The point I

:11:15. > :11:18.would make is that there cannot be to the future without a complete

:11:19. > :11:23.settlement of the issues of the past. There has to be the closure.

:11:24. > :11:28.There has to be the investigation. There has to be the disinfectant of

:11:29. > :11:32.sunlight, to quote a phrase. We have to move on sure and certain in the

:11:33. > :11:35.knowledge we've done everything to investigate the past. There is so

:11:36. > :11:41.many people who I want to hear from and I know that everybody here wants

:11:42. > :11:45.to, can I just say in closing that Erik Persson -- absolutely on this

:11:46. > :11:49.side of the House we do have great respect in those who serve and have

:11:50. > :11:52.served in our Armed Forces and who take pride in the work that they

:11:53. > :11:58.have done. On those very, very few occasions when there may be the

:11:59. > :12:02.possibility of action outside the law, those claims must be

:12:03. > :12:06.investigated fully. It's crucial to say that those people who wear a

:12:07. > :12:10.uniform would want that that to be investigated. They would want the

:12:11. > :12:14.case. Nobody would want to CNN exemption for members of the Armed

:12:15. > :12:18.Forces. Having said that, a great deal of sense has been spoken today.

:12:19. > :12:22.There will be more, no doubt. Can we please try to see that to get

:12:23. > :12:26.through March the 2nd, I very much hope the new Assembly will be up and

:12:27. > :12:30.running and Stormont House can come forward and I hope in future we'll

:12:31. > :12:34.be having debates about the great and glorious future of Northern

:12:35. > :12:39.Ireland, which we'll be talking to a prosperous, comfortable, rich

:12:40. > :12:42.economy of people couldn't who have pride in that extraordinary part of

:12:43. > :12:47.the world and not looking backwards and forwards to a real glorious

:12:48. > :12:50.future. Everything a person in Northern Ireland, not only deserves

:12:51. > :12:55.that right to peace and prosperity, but they have earned that right, and

:12:56. > :13:01.I hope this House will give them a fair following wind and their

:13:02. > :13:05.support. I thank you. Madame Deputy Speaker I'd like to congratulate the

:13:06. > :13:09.DUP on this motion and also particularly the right honourable

:13:10. > :13:14.member for Lagan Valley for what was a very impressive speech and opening

:13:15. > :13:18.of the motion. I'd like to thank the Secretary of State for what he said

:13:19. > :13:21.and as always it's a pleasure to follow the honourable manner for

:13:22. > :13:27.Ealing North. I think his emphasis on the peace process and the future

:13:28. > :13:29.was very welcome. Now Madame Deputy Speaker, the right honourable member

:13:30. > :13:35.for Lagan Valley mentioned the figures involved, so I won't repeat

:13:36. > :13:39.them. But he also made the point I think that there can be no legal or

:13:40. > :13:44.moral equivalence between what the terrorists did and what happened to

:13:45. > :13:50.the military, who were deployed in support of the police, acted under

:13:51. > :13:55.the rule of law and were subject to very tight military controls and

:13:56. > :14:00.codes, including the yellow book. They were mainly young men and some

:14:01. > :14:04.women who never asked to go to Northern Ireland, but were deployed

:14:05. > :14:08.there, and showed incredible professionalism, huge restraint at

:14:09. > :14:13.times when they were under great stress and provocation, but at all

:14:14. > :14:15.times they held their nerve and the reputation of the British military

:14:16. > :14:23.as a consequence was enhanced around the world. Every single incident

:14:24. > :14:28.involving killing or injuring by the military was fully investigated at

:14:29. > :14:31.the time. There were regimental investigations, there were

:14:32. > :14:34.investigations by the military police. In virtually every case

:14:35. > :14:39.there were investigations by the RUC and by the civilian authorities. I

:14:40. > :14:46.would say that I don't think any other countries' Armed Forces in the

:14:47. > :14:50.world would have shown the restraint and professionalism that our Armed

:14:51. > :14:56.Forces showed, and when mistakes were made they were called to order.

:14:57. > :15:00.Indeed, in the case of the killing of the two civil rights campaigners

:15:01. > :15:05.Michael Lumb and Andrew Murray, three sergeants and one officer from

:15:06. > :15:09.Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were charged in the case of two of

:15:10. > :15:12.the sergeants with murder and were sentenced to life imprisonment,

:15:13. > :15:19.that's Sergeant John Bernard Sergeant Stanley Hathaway, said

:15:20. > :15:22.Sergeant, chestnut, was charged with manslaughter and sentenced to four

:15:23. > :15:27.years and the officer in charge of the platoon, who wasn't actually

:15:28. > :15:31.present at the farmhouse of the killings, covered up what happened

:15:32. > :15:35.and was subsequently charged and given a suspended sentence and

:15:36. > :15:39.resigned his commission, Captain Andrew Snowball, and it was a case

:15:40. > :15:43.which I think showed that whether military stepped of line, they were

:15:44. > :15:47.investigated and if charges were appropriate those charges were

:15:48. > :15:50.brought. I give way. I thank my honourable friend for making this

:15:51. > :15:56.point. It's absolutely essential that the record of this House

:15:57. > :16:00.carries on the fact the Royal of the -- the Royal Ulster Constabulary,

:16:01. > :16:03.under services to Her Majesty's forces in Northern Ireland, when

:16:04. > :16:06.they were acting under operational banner, acted under the highest

:16:07. > :16:11.human rights compliant record in any dispute anywhere in the world. That

:16:12. > :16:19.is without any challenge whatsoever. 30,000 officers carrying personal

:16:20. > :16:23.weapons and the minimal amount of illegal discharge of those weapons,

:16:24. > :16:29.that's a miracle given the provocation going on, with murders

:16:30. > :16:31.daily in our province. I'm going to remove a couple of paragraphs my

:16:32. > :16:38.speech because he said what I was going to say. Can we fast forward to

:16:39. > :16:42.the current situation, because the right on remember for Lagan Valley

:16:43. > :16:46.outlined the thought process and especially the veterans that have

:16:47. > :16:52.now been arrested as part of the DPP's vendetta against some of these

:16:53. > :16:56.veteran soldiers. I want to refer to the case of Dennis Hutchings, which

:16:57. > :17:03.I did refer to in an adjournment debate that I was allowed to present

:17:04. > :17:07.on the 13th of December. In the case of Dennis Hutchings, he was deployed

:17:08. > :17:13.to Northern Ireland with his regiment the lifeguards, and they

:17:14. > :17:16.were in an area, where levels of disturbance were particularly high,

:17:17. > :17:21.in Dungannon and Armagh, and all patrols were told to take special

:17:22. > :17:26.care. The regiment had suffered a number of shooting incidents. One of

:17:27. > :17:31.them actually fatal. On the 4th of June, a patrol was actually ambushed

:17:32. > :17:34.by a group of young men, who were in the process of transferring weapons

:17:35. > :17:40.into a car in the village of aggression. They were found upon --

:17:41. > :17:44.fired upon, words exchanged, a number of people arrested and a

:17:45. > :17:47.quantity of arms were recovered. On the following dates Corporal Dennis

:17:48. > :17:53.Hutchings, who was actually mentioned in dispatches for his

:17:54. > :17:58.brave leadership, led a patrol into the area and their aim was to locate

:17:59. > :18:02.further arms caches near that village. They chanced on John Pat

:18:03. > :18:07.Cunningham, who was challenged to give himself up. He actually behaved

:18:08. > :18:10.in a way that was suspicious. The control believed they were

:18:11. > :18:13.threatened and they opened fire and we know there was a tragic outcome

:18:14. > :18:20.because John Pat Cunningham was killed. Now this was fully

:18:21. > :18:25.investigated by the Lifeguards, by the military police, by the RUC, and

:18:26. > :18:32.by the DPP. All four members were completely exonerated. What then

:18:33. > :18:40.happened I believe completely beggars belief. We go fast forward

:18:41. > :18:46.to 2011. Dennis Hutchings was called in by the PSNI historical enquiries

:18:47. > :18:50.team. He was fully investigated, a very comprehensive investigation

:18:51. > :18:55.took place. He cooperated fully in all of this. He was told at the end

:18:56. > :18:59.of it that no further action could take place and thing he could get on

:19:00. > :19:02.with his life, he could look after his grandchildren, his

:19:03. > :19:07.great-grandchildren, and he could basically enjoy his retirement. Now

:19:08. > :19:13.we afford to 2015, there was a dawn raid on the major's house, he's been

:19:14. > :19:17.in very poor health recently, he was arrested and taken to Northern

:19:18. > :19:21.Ireland for four days' questioning and charged with attempted murder,

:19:22. > :19:25.charges he vehemently denied. After 42 years, there were no witnesses,

:19:26. > :19:29.we have members of the platoon, the other three members in the patrol

:19:30. > :19:33.have died, all the forensic evidence was looked at at the time, that has

:19:34. > :19:36.all disappeared, how can he get a fair trial now? The first thing I

:19:37. > :19:42.learned at law school was that any criminal case depends critically on

:19:43. > :19:46.evidence, on credible evidence, on corroborated evidence, and indeed on

:19:47. > :19:48.someone then getting a fair trial. He cannot get a fair trial in these

:19:49. > :20:02.circumstances. I will give way. Would he agree with the dimmer is

:20:03. > :20:06.great concern and we are told that there are new ways of looking at

:20:07. > :20:10.evidence, so rather than new evidence, people are trying to find

:20:11. > :20:16.just new ways of trying to research it. Does he not think that is wrong?

:20:17. > :20:22.I agreed because I'm going to come onto that in my final points in a

:20:23. > :20:25.moment but I think this case does illustrate that it was fully

:20:26. > :20:28.investigated at the time, it was looked at by every available

:20:29. > :20:37.authority and organisation and it was closed down at the time. Having

:20:38. > :20:40.to reopen cases now, what it does, it is revisionism. It is trying to

:20:41. > :20:47.rewrite history. Atlanta look at what happened then through the lens

:20:48. > :20:50.of 2017. Where we have a whole new emphasis on human rights and

:20:51. > :20:57.different standards. I find this perverse, wrong and completely

:20:58. > :21:02.unacceptable. I think it compliments entirely the

:21:03. > :21:06.point that was made by the honourable lady. It is absolutely

:21:07. > :21:09.right that we've got to move on but in moving on we've got to allow

:21:10. > :21:13.those who have served to move on and on occasion like this where it is so

:21:14. > :21:18.obvious, that so clear that justice has not only been done but seem to

:21:19. > :21:24.be done multiple times, surely, be moving on can become actively.

:21:25. > :21:27.And if one that actually looks at what happened to the IRA and the

:21:28. > :21:33.Parliament the trees their sole aim was to murder, maim and disrupt

:21:34. > :21:39.communities. They didn't investigate crimes murders. They celebrated

:21:40. > :21:44.killings that they took part in. There were not subject to the Geneva

:21:45. > :21:51.Convention or any other rule of all the British law on torture. Let's

:21:52. > :21:53.see some examples very quickly. What about the military intelligence

:21:54. > :22:01.liaison officer who was abducted in May 19 77. Tortured, brutally

:22:02. > :22:04.tortured, he was awarded a posthumous George Cross and killed.

:22:05. > :22:11.He's one of nine IRA victims whose body has been recovered. What about

:22:12. > :22:20.the corporals who chanced on an Iranian funeral in March 19 88. They

:22:21. > :22:23.were dragged out of their car. -- IRA funeral. One of the

:22:24. > :22:28.extraordinary pictures was that one of Father Alec Reed issuing the last

:22:29. > :22:33.rites. In the three Scottish brothers who were abducted from a

:22:34. > :22:37.pop in 1971. They were off duty, they were unarmed, they were

:22:38. > :22:45.abducted and tortured and no one has ever been convicted. I will draw my

:22:46. > :22:48.remarks to a conclusion now. I think what we have now got to do. Got bad

:22:49. > :22:59.weather moving forward. The only way of moving it forward is for the

:23:00. > :23:08.Secretary of State, is for ministers to make it absolutely categorically

:23:09. > :23:12.clear that these cases will now be closed subject to the arrival or the

:23:13. > :23:18.discovery of brand-new compelling evidence. I think anything less than

:23:19. > :23:28.this is going to lead to many of those, and a figure was given

:23:29. > :23:32.270,000, veterans. It would be a betrayal of these veterans and it

:23:33. > :23:43.would be an appalling scar on HMG. I think that we have a way forward and

:23:44. > :23:51.I urge ministers to take it. Thank you. Can I put on record right

:23:52. > :23:55.at the start of the SNP's acknowledgement and appreciation of

:23:56. > :24:02.the efforts of our police and Armed Forces personnel wherever they

:24:03. > :24:06.serve. Our safety is a luxury port with their dedication to duty and

:24:07. > :24:10.constant vigilance. I can appreciate that my opinion on this is not

:24:11. > :24:14.always shared by everyone else and that there were people in many

:24:15. > :24:17.places who feel that they have good reason to disagree with their

:24:18. > :24:22.sentiments. But can I also say at this point, it has been mentioned

:24:23. > :24:27.previously be planting of a bomb outside a police officer's house is

:24:28. > :24:30.completely unacceptable. Not only was the officer's life threatened

:24:31. > :24:35.just today but the lives of others were touched by it, too. Given the

:24:36. > :24:39.nature of the area where the opposite lives I expect children

:24:40. > :24:46.play in that street. And it is beyond unforgivable to want a child

:24:47. > :24:50.does not lie. I can't get inside the mind of anyone who wants a return to

:24:51. > :24:57.violence in Northern Ireland and I cannot believe that there will be

:24:58. > :25:02.any great support for them anywhere. Great praise is instead due to the

:25:03. > :25:05.politicians and community activists who have brought Northern Ireland

:25:06. > :25:11.away from those dark shadows and headed towards a better future. Many

:25:12. > :25:15.of them I will not have heard of and some are no longer with us but it

:25:16. > :25:19.must have taken great courage for enemies to lay aside their greatest

:25:20. > :25:24.enmity and begin the corporation that we see now. I have huge respect

:25:25. > :25:28.for those I have met to serve here and those I've met who serve in

:25:29. > :25:35.Stormont and a few I've met to councillors and community leaders,

:25:36. > :25:38.who have the courage, the vision and the belief in the future to be able

:25:39. > :25:41.to say to their opponents, I know what you have to do and where you

:25:42. > :25:44.had to stand to serve your community and I appreciate that you give me

:25:45. > :25:48.the same courtesy. Where can we find common ground? There is a future to

:25:49. > :25:53.be had from the people servants have that attitude. Not that everyone is

:25:54. > :26:00.lovely to each other, I hasten to add, but their leaders enough to

:26:01. > :26:05.know where that fertile future lies. I think there is a certainty that

:26:06. > :26:09.the people and politicians of Northern Ireland can craft a future

:26:10. > :26:13.which will stand in Tasman to the courage shown and the personal risks

:26:14. > :26:17.taken these past couple of decades. In that they not think that the SNP

:26:18. > :26:21.position is clear. We believe that the people of Northern Ireland have

:26:22. > :26:28.the capacity, the intelligence and the gumption to make a better this

:26:29. > :26:31.thing is that than we can. We have confidence in the institutions of

:26:32. > :26:35.the police and judiciary to serve the people and confidence in

:26:36. > :26:39.Stormont to reform them if they are not serving well. We certainly also

:26:40. > :26:45.have confidence in the people of Northern Ireland to reform the pants

:26:46. > :26:49.off any politician who does not have the ability, courage or energy to

:26:50. > :26:55.serve them well. I can get why this motion is before us to day and I

:26:56. > :26:57.certainly appreciate the concerns of soldiers who served in operation

:26:58. > :27:02.Banner and are now retired. There is no form of polite words, trite

:27:03. > :27:07.phrases are empty passages that puts any of this nicely to bed. The

:27:08. > :27:12.resolution to those concerned lies in the institutions in Belfast. The

:27:13. > :27:16.MOD has a duty which I think it has promised to live up to two ensure

:27:17. > :27:21.that any of its current of former employees who face legal action as a

:27:22. > :27:23.result of what they did during the service is adequately represented.

:27:24. > :27:27.Others believe that the minister was able to reassure us that the

:27:28. > :27:32.commitment given by the MOD at the end of last year remains in place

:27:33. > :27:35.and by his assurance that is taxpayer funded legal support will

:27:36. > :27:45.be provided where needed. That is very welcome indeed. She mentioned

:27:46. > :27:49.institutions in Northern Ireland. Would she accept that had it not

:27:50. > :27:54.been for the bravery and sacrifice of British troops through the whole

:27:55. > :27:59.of that period who helped in effect to hold the reins of that one day a

:28:00. > :28:07.peaceful solution could be arrived at, those institutions would not

:28:08. > :28:11.actually be available to us today? I did place on record right at the

:28:12. > :28:14.subarachnoid mint and precession of the tremendous efforts made by

:28:15. > :28:20.police and Armed Forces personnel wherever they served and certainly

:28:21. > :28:26.their contribution to peace has been a big part of where we are today. I

:28:27. > :28:32.wanted to mention that the investigation of incidences is a

:28:33. > :28:34.matter for serviceable and four Courts martial and have no

:28:35. > :28:39.particular knowledge of those systems but the duty to ensure

:28:40. > :28:44.fairness and impartiality lies in the MOD. I welcome the Secretary of

:28:45. > :28:50.State's comments regarding legal requirements very much. Prof Ernest,

:28:51. > :28:56.balance and proportionality. The duty to ensure fairness will lie

:28:57. > :29:00.with the new Stormont ministers and with the Attorney General and judges

:29:01. > :29:04.who sit in the courts over there. We must trust them to take due

:29:05. > :29:08.cognizance of all the circumstances that they find themselves in and of

:29:09. > :29:11.the evidence that is presented to them and we must trust them to take

:29:12. > :29:17.decisions on the best interests of the people that they serve. If we do

:29:18. > :29:23.not trust them we will be denying the legacy of all those who worked

:29:24. > :29:28.and to Labour at to craft a better future for Northern Ireland and to

:29:29. > :29:42.drag the communities that are away from the violence that has plagued

:29:43. > :29:47.them. I congratulate the DUP and in particular the honourable member for

:29:48. > :29:55.Lang Burley for bringing this motion before us. And for his very eloquent

:29:56. > :30:00.words but also for his gallant servers along with several of his

:30:01. > :30:06.parliamentary colleagues in what was by far the most dangerous regiments

:30:07. > :30:13.serving in the British Army as a part-time member of the UDR. I am

:30:14. > :30:18.deeply conscious of time with many members wishing to get inside will

:30:19. > :30:25.be very brief. My honourable friend the member for North West Norfolk

:30:26. > :30:29.has made such a case for very much point I would like to make judges

:30:30. > :30:35.want to briefly echo two or three of his points before coming on to the

:30:36. > :30:39.other side emotion. Corporal Major Denis Hutchens when he served in the

:30:40. > :30:44.lifeguards by chance was in the same squadron as a very close friend of

:30:45. > :30:50.mine. Who was an officer at command of the other troops. Ready says he

:30:51. > :30:56.was one of the best senior NCOs she ever served with. She is absolutely

:30:57. > :31:03.astounded at the way this man is being treated. I have a constituent

:31:04. > :31:08.who has written to me in the last fortnight who is being investigated

:31:09. > :31:16.now for events in 1976. That is 41 years ago. I listen for luck athlete

:31:17. > :31:22.what my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary said and

:31:23. > :31:27.I have a huge respect for him. I asked him to understand that there

:31:28. > :31:32.is nobody on this side of the house doesn't believe in the rule of law

:31:33. > :31:37.but integral to the rule of law is confidence in the criminal justice

:31:38. > :31:41.system. The problem was trying to British soldiers in the same way we

:31:42. > :31:51.pursue former terrorists is there is no prospect of, after all these

:31:52. > :31:56.years, are finding new evidence in most cases. He witnesses of diet,

:31:57. > :32:03.and the point about parity is not just that it is morally repugnant to

:32:04. > :32:06.compare killings by the security forces to killings by terrorist

:32:07. > :32:10.organisations unless there is real evidence that it is criminal, but it

:32:11. > :32:15.is also the practical fact that several colleagues have already

:32:16. > :32:19.made, that the other organisations we were up against, the

:32:20. > :32:22.paramilitaries on both sides, did not keep records. There was not the

:32:23. > :32:27.same scope for pursuing them. I firmly believe and my honourable

:32:28. > :32:31.friend has made the case so strongly about not waste time back repeating

:32:32. > :32:37.it, that the only way of resolving this is by putting in a clear

:32:38. > :32:42.transparent mechanism to ensure that no case can be pursued to charging

:32:43. > :32:46.with out to clear evidence that new evidence has been uncovered. Unless

:32:47. > :32:51.has been new evidence uncovered it should not be possible after all

:32:52. > :33:05.these years to bring fresh cases forward.

:33:06. > :33:13.Thank you. I am increasingly worried because 38 years ago I gave my words

:33:14. > :33:19.to two men under my command after they'd been involved in a fit tally

:33:20. > :33:22.to shooting that if they went to court, and were charged with

:33:23. > :33:29.manslaughter and they were proved not guilty they would never hear

:33:30. > :33:39.anything again. I gave my word and it looks like my word may not be

:33:40. > :33:47.worth a thick if this continues. I am grateful but I think a lot of

:33:48. > :33:51.us on the side of the house share The View that fresh evidence, a

:33:52. > :33:58.transparent procedure for showing that fresh evidence should be a

:33:59. > :34:02.requirement for these cases going forward. Want to move on to the

:34:03. > :34:10.other side of the motion which is before us. And that for a moment at

:34:11. > :34:15.some of those other operations. All the difference between Northern

:34:16. > :34:19.Ireland and the situation with the other three operations mentioned is

:34:20. > :34:29.that in Northern Ireland we were there an aide to the civil power. In

:34:30. > :34:32.the case of really a ruck, Kosovo and Afghanistan, there arose very

:34:33. > :34:44.little civil power. But some buyers there was none at all. -- Iraq. I

:34:45. > :34:49.was just not much yes. At some point there was no civil power at all. My

:34:50. > :34:57.right honourable friend, the Northern Ireland Secretary, said in

:34:58. > :35:01.the context after he just mentioned the importance of upholding the law.

:35:02. > :35:07.We have to be clear what it is we mean by the law. When we're dealing

:35:08. > :35:11.with these other operations. The fact is that when you have just

:35:12. > :35:20.captured a city as we had in Basra there was no civil law. In conflicts

:35:21. > :35:24.throughout the 20th-century it was always accepted that there is only

:35:25. > :35:29.one law that matters on the battlefield which is humanitarian

:35:30. > :35:35.law grounded in the Geneva Convention.

:35:36. > :35:42.In the last 15 or 20 years, there's been a creeping process whereby a

:35:43. > :35:45.second form of law, human rights law, has started to be introduced

:35:46. > :35:49.into the picture. When I served on the Defence Select Committee a

:35:50. > :35:54.number of organisations, including the International Red Cross,

:35:55. > :35:56.deprecated this. They made it clear that humanitarian law, which is

:35:57. > :36:01.tried and tested for protecting the interests of the vulnerable, should

:36:02. > :36:07.be the law that applies. Now, when we are looking at a body like IHAT,

:36:08. > :36:17.I would ask the House to think about two things. One of them is why did

:36:18. > :36:22.no other country, all countries in the West, claim to uphold the rule

:36:23. > :36:28.of law, choose to set up the body like IHAT? The second question I'd

:36:29. > :36:35.ask the House to think about is what exactly did we expect our soldiers

:36:36. > :36:39.to do in the very dangerous circumstances to which a number of

:36:40. > :36:42.the cases which are likely to survive the IHAT process and go

:36:43. > :36:47.forward apply, in those months after we captured Basra, when there was no

:36:48. > :36:51.police force effectively, there was no rule of law, we have large

:36:52. > :36:58.numbers of dangerous people around dealing with rioting, was looting

:36:59. > :37:02.and so on. Some colleagues may have read the recent account of how the

:37:03. > :37:06.Americans dealt with one particular looting problem, they shot two or

:37:07. > :37:09.three of the looters and a potential riot was suppressed. There was never

:37:10. > :37:13.any question of follow-up for that. Because we have to realise that in

:37:14. > :37:20.those sorts of circumstances, while you can have humanitarian law in the

:37:21. > :37:26.background, while you can have rules of engagement and so on, if you are

:37:27. > :37:29.young officer with a very small number of soldiers in a dangerous

:37:30. > :37:34.situation, seeing vulnerable people threatened, you may have make

:37:35. > :37:39.split-second decisions which in a court of law, in the UK context,

:37:40. > :37:43.anywhere within the United Kingdom, would not stand up. Trying to

:37:44. > :37:49.retrospectively establish those sorts of rules with human rights law

:37:50. > :37:53.being substituted somehow or other into the picture for the old very

:37:54. > :37:58.clear and very simple principles of humanitarian law, is exposed members

:37:59. > :38:08.of our Armed Forces in a way which many of us find an acceptable. -- an

:38:09. > :38:15.acceptable. I would just like to end with two points on that. The first

:38:16. > :38:21.is that while I was delighted at the way my right honourable friend

:38:22. > :38:27.stressed the importance of Mr Shiner being struck off as a lawyer, it

:38:28. > :38:35.does seem to me extraordinary that there has been no criminal

:38:36. > :38:40.prosecution. When we look at what the SRA, who I hitherto have always

:38:41. > :38:44.regarded as the most toothless of all professional bodies from my own

:38:45. > :38:49.constituencies' casework, when we look at what the SRA have found

:38:50. > :38:52.against him and we realise what that implies for our Armed Forces, I

:38:53. > :38:59.think it's extraordinary that he hasn't been charged and I very much

:39:00. > :39:03.hope he will be. The last point I'd like to make is about our Armed

:39:04. > :39:08.Forces in the operations they are involved in today. The government

:39:09. > :39:15.made a pledge that if we were involved in further combat

:39:16. > :39:19.operations, we would indeed stand back from the derogate from the

:39:20. > :39:26.Human Rights Act. But we are now engaged in two operations. We are

:39:27. > :39:30.increasing the number of soldiers in Afghanistan, which has turned back

:39:31. > :39:35.from a purely support mission, back towards an increasingly combat one,

:39:36. > :39:43.and at the same time we are very heavily involved in the bitter

:39:44. > :39:49.fighting in Iraq and we have air men regularly bombing areas. We have the

:39:50. > :39:52.most accurate bombs, we have the most fail-safe systems, you are

:39:53. > :39:56.safer as a civilian sheltering an area being bombed by the REF than

:39:57. > :40:03.any other force, but nevertheless potentially threatening civilians in

:40:04. > :40:07.the attack for most salt and so on. We have members of special forces,

:40:08. > :40:12.we don't talk about in this chamber, but some of whom are involved in

:40:13. > :40:17.ways as well. What protection is in place? Why haven't we derogated from

:40:18. > :40:24.the Human Rights Act for these two theatres? Madame Dudley speaker I

:40:25. > :40:28.want others to have the opportunity to speak, but I just end by saying I

:40:29. > :40:35.wholly support my honourable friend and the members opposite in calling

:40:36. > :40:38.for an end to the pursuit of veterans unless serious new evidence

:40:39. > :40:41.emerges in Northern Ireland, and I believe we owe more to the troops

:40:42. > :40:54.engaged in operations elsewhere today. We've got six people who want

:40:55. > :40:58.to get in... Deputy Speaker, I'm very pleased as always who to follow

:40:59. > :41:01.the honourable gentleman the member for Canterbury and thank him for all

:41:02. > :41:08.he has done in the service of his country, both here and in

:41:09. > :41:13.operations. Can I also pay tribute to everyone who has spoken thus far

:41:14. > :41:15.and I want to say that the right honourable member the member for

:41:16. > :41:21.Lagan Valley set out a very powerful way the case I think that is

:41:22. > :41:25.reflected by in the country at large and in terms of the approach to

:41:26. > :41:30.these issues. I want to thank the shadow junior minister for his

:41:31. > :41:34.words, but in particular I want to pay tribute to the government for

:41:35. > :41:38.having not just a junior minister here and representatives from the

:41:39. > :41:41.Ministry of Defence, but the Secretary of State also has

:41:42. > :41:45.participated in this debate. I think that's appreciated by the members of

:41:46. > :41:52.the Democratic youth and Unionist party on these benches. I will give

:41:53. > :41:55.way. Can I, as I should have done earlier, apologised for the absence

:41:56. > :42:01.of my colleagues the honourable member for Blaydon. He's on a train

:42:02. > :42:06.somewhere in the Northwest. May I also of course most importantly pay

:42:07. > :42:10.tribute to the members of our security forces, those who have

:42:11. > :42:14.served and those who continue to serve, and I, as a member in this

:42:15. > :42:17.house for North Belfast only too well aware of the enormous

:42:18. > :42:22.sacrifices being made over the years in terms of protecting life and limb

:42:23. > :42:27.and property in my constituency in Belfast and across Northern Ireland

:42:28. > :42:30.by the members of the security forces, and the recent example where

:42:31. > :42:36.a police officer was injured and thankfully was not seriously injured

:42:37. > :42:39.in my constituency and also just the other day in County Londonderry,

:42:40. > :42:44.which has been referred to, shows the continuing risks that members of

:42:45. > :42:49.our security forces are at in the service of others or once they

:42:50. > :42:54.deserve our admiration, pride and our grateful thanks. How we deal

:42:55. > :42:57.with legacy issues in Northern Ireland is important for innocent

:42:58. > :43:02.victims and their families, first and foremost, but it is a deeper

:43:03. > :43:06.significance than just that. The way we respond to current feelings on

:43:07. > :43:09.the house asked and these have been highlighted at length thus far in

:43:10. > :43:12.the process, will reflect our commitment to fairness and justice

:43:13. > :43:18.right across the United Kingdom. There is a very real view and

:43:19. > :43:21.perception, those who defended our communities from attack are being

:43:22. > :43:26.investigated disproportionately and with greater zeal than those who

:43:27. > :43:31.brought terror to our land and the facts bear that out. It isn't just a

:43:32. > :43:34.perception. But I think it's been amply demonstrated in the

:43:35. > :43:39.contribution made thus far that there is substance to that

:43:40. > :43:43.perception. Many of our Armed Forces veterans have heard a knock on the

:43:44. > :43:46.door early in the morning, hauled in by police for interrogation about

:43:47. > :43:50.events that took place many years ago. We've heard examples from

:43:51. > :43:53.honourable members opposite of exactly that happening, houses being

:43:54. > :43:57.invaded, searched, reputations tarnished. We on these benches are

:43:58. > :44:02.not prepared to stand back and see those who bravely served the people

:44:03. > :44:07.of Northern Ireland and serves people of this country generally in

:44:08. > :44:11.their darkest hour, hounded and unfairly vilified. We believe

:44:12. > :44:15.investigations into historical cases must be balanced and proportionate.

:44:16. > :44:19.It's wrong that our former members of the security forces are subject

:44:20. > :44:23.to a different set of rules to those who sought to do them and others

:44:24. > :44:28.harm and the right honourable member for Lagan Valley has set out how the

:44:29. > :44:34.provisions of the Belfast Agreement gave special dispensation and

:44:35. > :44:36.special measures for paramilitaries and those who were imprisoned but

:44:37. > :44:42.did nothing for our security forces. That is wrong. Operation Banner, as

:44:43. > :44:48.has been mentioned, was the longest military deployment in British

:44:49. > :44:51.history. Over 250,000 men and women served in the Armed Forces and in

:44:52. > :44:57.the RUC during that time. It's right to emphasise again the 7000 awards

:44:58. > :45:03.for bravery that were made. The over 1100 security service personnel

:45:04. > :45:06.murdered in the course of their duties. Countless more bearing

:45:07. > :45:11.mental and physical scars of those days. And without their dedication

:45:12. > :45:14.to making people safe, as the Secretary of State are so rightly

:45:15. > :45:17.said, without that sacrifice, terrorism would not have been

:45:18. > :45:22.defeated and the roots of peace could not have been sown to provide

:45:23. > :45:26.where we are today. Flawed and difficult as it is, we're in a much,

:45:27. > :45:31.much better place as a result of the work and sacrifice of our security

:45:32. > :45:36.forces. So they defended and we must defend them. Never forgetting that

:45:37. > :45:39.paramilitary terrorists, both Republican and loyalist, were

:45:40. > :45:43.responsible for some 90% of the deaths during the so-called

:45:44. > :45:48.Troubles. So how we address the issue of legacy must reflect what

:45:49. > :45:52.actually happened. No one is saying on these benches that people are

:45:53. > :45:57.above the law. The actions of the security forces must be held to the

:45:58. > :46:02.highest levels of professionalism and of course must be properly

:46:03. > :46:06.investigated. And of course, in saying that, we must also remember

:46:07. > :46:12.the difficult context in which people were operating in security

:46:13. > :46:16.forces and police at the time, in a climate of fear and terror created

:46:17. > :46:19.by terrorists, who went out of their way not only to target innocent

:46:20. > :46:24.civilians, but then to target and murder detectives and others who

:46:25. > :46:28.were involved in trying to investigate crime. And of course,

:46:29. > :46:31.policing practices which across the United Kingdom were far removed from

:46:32. > :46:38.those that are used today. To suggest that somehow misconduct was

:46:39. > :46:42.rife is a deliberate distortion. It's a narrative of the troubles

:46:43. > :46:47.that is not justified by the fact and we in this House must reject

:46:48. > :46:53.such revisionism. Member said there is a danger that the past has been

:46:54. > :46:57.rewritten, that the war has been won, yes, there is a dangerous

:46:58. > :47:03.propaganda war, we must not allow that to happen. We must ensure that

:47:04. > :47:05.the past is not rewritten in the way the terrorists and their

:47:06. > :47:10.sympathisers would like to see it rewritten. I thank my right

:47:11. > :47:14.honourable friend for giving way. On the issue of proportionality, which

:47:15. > :47:20.is discussing at the moment, would he agree with me that significantly

:47:21. > :47:22.less than 1% of all the people going through the years in Northern

:47:23. > :47:27.Ireland who served in the security forces and police -- army and

:47:28. > :47:32.police, were even questioned about possible breaches of the law come

:47:33. > :47:37.when 100% of the terrorists were most definitely guilty of breaches

:47:38. > :47:43.of the law. The member makes a very, very important point and it bears

:47:44. > :47:48.emphasis in this House and further afield, and it's important that

:47:49. > :47:52.these issues are made clear to people who may, as time passes, from

:47:53. > :47:57.the direct reports of what happened in Northern Ireland, begin to think

:47:58. > :48:02.that somehow there was a different story, different narrative, occurred

:48:03. > :48:05.in Northern Ireland. That's why it's absolutely important that the

:48:06. > :48:08.institutions which were being set up under the Stormont House agreement,

:48:09. > :48:12.which the Secretary of State referred to and which my right

:48:13. > :48:15.honourable friend referred to, the historical investigations unit and

:48:16. > :48:18.so on, I'll set up so we can have a balanced, fair and proportionate

:48:19. > :48:22.approach to all of this. So they will highlight the fact we have 3000

:48:23. > :48:28.murders in Northern Ireland remaining unsolved, that we have

:48:29. > :48:32.acts of terrorism carried out by people like Sean Kelly, the Shankill

:48:33. > :48:37.bomber, like Mike Torkalkar her, part of the South Armagh IRA sniper

:48:38. > :48:41.team that murdered once bombardier Stephen Restorick in 1997, one of

:48:42. > :48:44.the last members of the Armed Forces to die. He received a sentence

:48:45. > :48:50.totalling 105 years Andy Ward free just after three -- and he walked

:48:51. > :48:53.free just after three. The right honourable member for Lagan Valley

:48:54. > :49:00.has detailed the efforts that were made by the then Labour government

:49:01. > :49:06.and John Reid and then Peter Mandelson to go to extraordinary

:49:07. > :49:11.lengths to provide concessions to IRA terrorists, with no regard

:49:12. > :49:15.whatsoever to any kind of proportionality, or to do anything

:49:16. > :49:20.for the security forces. The secret deals that were done, for instance,

:49:21. > :49:23.on and on the runs and so on. These are the major debilitating impact on

:49:24. > :49:26.those who face down terrorism in Northern Ireland and our duty now is

:49:27. > :49:32.to convince them that that will not happen again. I share the view of

:49:33. > :49:35.the right honourable gentleman who spoke earlier on our behalf that

:49:36. > :49:38.this government will not repeat the mistakes of that were made in the

:49:39. > :49:43.past and there will be no amnesty and there will be no secret deals

:49:44. > :49:49.which will allow terrorists off the hook. So in conclusion I want to say

:49:50. > :49:53.that it's important that we get the Stormont house agreement

:49:54. > :49:57.institutions up and running as quickly as possible, that we begin

:49:58. > :50:02.to get back some kind of fair and proportionate system in terms of

:50:03. > :50:14.investigation of what macro -- these legacy cases and we... I give way.

:50:15. > :50:24.Is can I congratulate him for bringing this important matter to

:50:25. > :50:29.the house? All those little difficult lessons from what happened

:50:30. > :50:36.and we are to appreciate the effect that has had on the Armed Forces and

:50:37. > :50:40.our own veterans. Surely after what feels all gone through with IHAT on

:50:41. > :50:43.the lessons we must learn the last thing we can sanction is a

:50:44. > :50:47.politically motivated witchhunt in Northern Ireland against our own.

:50:48. > :50:50.I am delighted that the honourable gentleman was able to make that

:50:51. > :50:56.point. It is a very powerful point and I agree with that entirely. The

:50:57. > :51:00.stakes are high. There was a responsibility and those of us who

:51:01. > :51:04.are in this house to make sure that we build a society that values than

:51:05. > :51:09.and elevates justice and treats our veterans properly. One that upholds

:51:10. > :51:12.the proud traditions of our military and other commitment to democracy

:51:13. > :51:16.and we must go forward on that basis.

:51:17. > :51:24.Members have been very good in sticking to a self imposed time

:51:25. > :51:30.limit. If everyone who is about to speak takes seven minutes or less

:51:31. > :51:35.then all colleagues would have a chance of making their voice heard.

:51:36. > :51:43.And I am sure I can rely on Mr David Simpson to do that.

:51:44. > :51:50.It is good to follow the right honourable member from Belfast

:51:51. > :51:55.North. I want a fully acknowledge the service and the sacrifice of our

:51:56. > :52:00.Armed Forces and police throughout the world as they are placed in

:52:01. > :52:04.areas of conflict to protect the lives of innocent people. I remember

:52:05. > :52:08.them often and not only the sacrifice that they make but also

:52:09. > :52:13.their families. From my time in this debate I wish to focus briefly one

:52:14. > :52:19.Northern Ireland, of course Northern Ireland has enjoyed some 20 years of

:52:20. > :52:29.relative peace. It has not been perfect but unfortunately we have

:52:30. > :52:37.seen decades of brutal violence, the murder of 1879 civilians and the

:52:38. > :52:46.murder of 1117 members of the security forces. What we must first

:52:47. > :52:51.and foremost agree is that not everyone in Northern Ireland is a

:52:52. > :52:56.victim. There are those and some who would seek to claim that every

:52:57. > :53:01.single person in the country is a victim. This is an insidious concept

:53:02. > :53:06.for two reasons. Firstly it diminishes the genuine pain and

:53:07. > :53:10.suffering of those who were directly affected by the actions of

:53:11. > :53:14.terrorists during the troubles and it elevates those who engage in the

:53:15. > :53:22.criminal acts to equal. Just those who suffered and caused the

:53:23. > :53:28.suffering in the first place. The British Army was deployed in

:53:29. > :53:33.Northern Ireland as we all know under operation in 69. Their rail

:53:34. > :53:34.will support the then Royal Ulster Constabulary including providing

:53:35. > :53:44.protection to police officers in carrying out normal policing areas

:53:45. > :53:47.and areas of threats. To deter terrorist attacks and support

:53:48. > :53:53.placing against terrorist operations. The scale of the

:53:54. > :53:59.campaign within another province was escalating and at its peak, in the

:54:00. > :54:05.1970s, the British army was deploying around 21,000 soldiers,

:54:06. > :54:10.one of the most memorable and it has mentioned earlier, was to be July

:54:11. > :54:19.the 21st 1972 from the IRA murdered nine people. Injured 130 and they

:54:20. > :54:25.planted and detonated 27 bombs. The magnitude of this campaign still has

:54:26. > :54:28.the longest continuous deployment of the British monetary history of this

:54:29. > :54:34.legacy remains strongly in the hearts and minds of many and not

:54:35. > :54:40.least is those who came to protect us. I've no doubt about the

:54:41. > :54:46.commitment from our security personnel, the rain of terrorism

:54:47. > :54:51.would have succeeded in the death of many more innocent lives. I want to

:54:52. > :54:57.quote a paragraph from the Armed Forces covenant. The first

:54:58. > :55:02.Government is the defence of the realm. Our Armed Forces fulfil that

:55:03. > :55:07.responsibility in behalf of Government, sacrificing some

:55:08. > :55:14.civilian freedoms, facing danger and sometimes thick suffering injury or

:55:15. > :55:22.death as a result of their duty. Let me say again, in this house, that

:55:23. > :55:26.1117 members of our security forces paid the ultimate sacrifice was

:55:27. > :55:30.serving of the Government are serving to protect the innocent

:55:31. > :55:35.lives of the wider community in Northern Ireland during 1969 until

:55:36. > :55:41.2010. This figure does not account for the many thousands of security

:55:42. > :55:46.personnel left badly injured and who are still struggling today as a

:55:47. > :55:52.direct result of terrorism. My point is this. The British Army was

:55:53. > :55:55.deployed to support the role of the police as protectors of the people

:55:56. > :55:59.of Northern Ireland and to uphold the rule of law and order. At times

:56:00. > :56:04.this involved direct contact with the legal group, namely the

:56:05. > :56:11.provisional IRA, who read the main opposition to British deployment.

:56:12. > :56:16.Tough and ultimately life changing decisions were made by our security

:56:17. > :56:20.forces while they serve this country and Her Majesty's Government at I'm

:56:21. > :56:26.sure there are members in this chamber today for not exactly what

:56:27. > :56:33.that level of combat must actually feel like. Our Majesty 's Government

:56:34. > :56:36.invests millions of pounds to deliver specific training in balding

:56:37. > :56:41.high-intensity battles, a significant part of this training

:56:42. > :56:46.equips each officer with the skills of making level and justifiable

:56:47. > :56:50.decisions under severe threats to life and we put our trust in them to

:56:51. > :56:55.do their job and we must continue to trust the judgments they make and

:56:56. > :56:59.the very specific and unique circumstances in Northern Ireland.

:57:00. > :57:03.In conclusion, I want to commend the honourable member for North West

:57:04. > :57:12.Norfolk for his work and commitment to see that whether it be retired or

:57:13. > :57:15.still active service personnel are not unduly questioned over their

:57:16. > :57:20.actions and decisions they took up the height of prolonged and vicious

:57:21. > :57:26.terror campaigns. Terrorist organisations, as it hasn't said a

:57:27. > :57:30.game in this house, accounted for 90% of the lives lost during the

:57:31. > :57:36.troubles in Northern Ireland. Our focus should be in bringing those

:57:37. > :57:42.perpetrators before the courts and not our security force personnel,

:57:43. > :57:49.and deliver justice for the real victims of Northern Ireland.

:57:50. > :57:53.This is an important debate and I'm not going to go over all of the

:57:54. > :58:00.cities of which have been given by previous speakers. Other than to say

:58:01. > :58:07.we in Northern Ireland over great depth of gratitude to those who hold

:58:08. > :58:13.the ring for 40 years in the face of a sustained terrorist campaign. And

:58:14. > :58:17.it is wrong that now because of Republicans attempt to rewrite the

:58:18. > :58:23.history of the troubles that these people should be subject to a

:58:24. > :58:27.witchhunt and should be made the scapegoat for what happened but 40

:58:28. > :58:35.years. And can I just give a warning to the house? If members think that

:58:36. > :58:41.what we've seen to date has been an further after the election which we

:58:42. > :58:48.now have in Northern Ireland, one can be absolutely sure that Sinn

:58:49. > :58:51.Fein are going to ramp up the pressure to make sure that more

:58:52. > :58:58.soldiers and more policemen are dragged into the dock. That the

:58:59. > :59:03.classified documents which the Ministry of Defence of the police

:59:04. > :59:10.have will be a to scrutiny by smart lawyers in the courts, all of it and

:59:11. > :59:15.attempt to rewrite history. Because the selection Northern Ireland is

:59:16. > :59:21.not about a failed scheme as the shadow spokesman has pointed out.

:59:22. > :59:24.This election is all about Sinn Fein thinking that they have an

:59:25. > :59:29.opportunity to have a rerun of the last election, to come out stronger

:59:30. > :59:32.and then to put pressure on a Government which will be dead keen

:59:33. > :59:43.to get them back into Government. The price will be policemen and

:59:44. > :59:47.soldiers sacrificed in the courts and an unfair system. That is why I

:59:48. > :59:53.think the members are right to be concerned about what we are hearing

:59:54. > :00:00.here today. Already the system is unbearable to present their

:00:01. > :00:04.butterball because the cases been dealt with have been

:00:05. > :00:13.disproportionately geared towards those in the security forces. And it

:00:14. > :00:17.has been mentioned here already, why are the legal systems in Northern

:00:18. > :00:21.Ireland and the justice system in Northern Ireland shall taste show

:00:22. > :00:30.locally and indeed trying to silence the press about what they have been

:00:31. > :00:33.doing? If they do not believe that the statements they've made, if they

:00:34. > :00:39.were looked at closely, would be seen to be disproportionate. And

:00:40. > :00:41.from the Attorney General to the Director of Public Prosecutions

:00:42. > :00:50.quite up to the Chief Constable of the PSNI we have had to denials. And

:00:51. > :00:57.yet figures are clear. 30% of the cases being investigated at present

:00:58. > :01:01.our security force cases. Although only 10% of the people killed in

:01:02. > :01:11.Northern Ireland during the troubles were killed by security force action

:01:12. > :01:18.and very well, many of those were murders. A very few cases, as far as

:01:19. > :01:23.the deaths caused by security forces, could even be claimed to

:01:24. > :01:30.have been unlawful or look unlawful. And yet we have 30% of them being

:01:31. > :01:33.investigated. It is not only... Can either the benefit of the house

:01:34. > :01:37.just make it absolutely clear that I was not in anyway implying that the

:01:38. > :01:43.assembly elections on March the 2nd solely the result of the RHI issue.

:01:44. > :01:46.There are indicative of a wider feeling of distrust which in many

:01:47. > :01:52.ways is not being addressed by this debate today.

:01:53. > :01:57.Thank you. The second thing is that this has been an further in its

:01:58. > :02:03.approach. Let us look at the way in which terrorists have been treated.

:02:04. > :02:08.They've been given letters that excuse them from ever having to be

:02:09. > :02:16.in court when Gerry Adams was being questioned about covering up his

:02:17. > :02:18.paedophile brother. She was given the opportunity to nominate what

:02:19. > :02:24.police station he wanted to go to. When he would like to be

:02:25. > :02:30.interviewed. And he attended without his house being raided, without

:02:31. > :02:43.being hauled out of his bed, without being dragged across the water as we

:02:44. > :02:46.found out soldiers here have. It was done at his convenience and yet we

:02:47. > :02:51.find when it comes to soldiers... And I would like to know who

:02:52. > :02:57.actually gave the instructions for early morning raids on pensioners

:02:58. > :03:01.homes. For instead of being questioned on the road town or their

:03:02. > :03:04.police station and police officers from Northern Ireland coming over,

:03:05. > :03:08.they had to be dragged to Northern Ireland. And then restrictive bail

:03:09. > :03:12.conditions been put on them. They are never put on terrorists in

:03:13. > :03:19.Northern Ireland. It is an fair in its approach. Is this a result of a

:03:20. > :03:25.direction by the director of public prosecution? What of the police in

:03:26. > :03:30.Northern Ireland, was that the police in the jurisdiction in which

:03:31. > :03:34.the people lived? I have asked the cheap possible for answers and have

:03:35. > :03:37.not been able to buy them so it is unfair in its approach and it is

:03:38. > :03:42.unfair because of the inadequacy of the imbalance of information. I do

:03:43. > :03:44.not accept the Secretary of State's information that there will be

:03:45. > :03:48.plenty of information about terrorism of us will have all the

:03:49. > :03:52.police files. Many of those police files have disappeared. Many cases

:03:53. > :03:58.were never even investigated. Yet there will be detailed records of

:03:59. > :04:03.what the Army don't and I believe the only way and the only solution

:04:04. > :04:08.to this is to have a statute of limitations where terrorists, says

:04:09. > :04:16.the Good Friday Agreement, have had special conditions attached to them.

:04:17. > :04:18.That the same furnace be attached -- furnace be attached to those who

:04:19. > :04:23.served in the security forces that we do not bind people be dragged

:04:24. > :04:26.before the courts but things that happened 40 years ago, which their

:04:27. > :04:36.little recollection of and indeed which even the state and the records

:04:37. > :04:41.are difficult to turn up. I hope that this issue will not be

:04:42. > :04:45.forgotten. This issue will sustain the pressure on the Government on

:04:46. > :04:47.this issue to ensure fairness for this is served their country so

:04:48. > :04:58.well. I want to acknowledge with deep

:04:59. > :05:02.regret the attempted murder on the police officer in Derry yesterday,

:05:03. > :05:05.in the constituency of my honourable friend the member for Foyle, and

:05:06. > :05:09.apologise for his nonattendance today and that of my honourable

:05:10. > :05:12.friend the member for South Belfast, because they are both in Dublin at

:05:13. > :05:17.the Good Friday Agreement committee, and in fact the select committee

:05:18. > :05:21.exiting the European Union is meeting in Dublin today, with

:05:22. > :05:28.various committees to deal with the issue of Brexit. So in so doing I

:05:29. > :05:33.would say that it is important that I, on behalf of the SDLP, say that

:05:34. > :05:37.we have always renounced violence from wherever it came, because

:05:38. > :05:43.violence was always wrong, during all that period of the Troubles, as

:05:44. > :05:47.it is wrong now. There was never any justification for that level of

:05:48. > :05:52.terrorism, for that level of violence and that level of murder,

:05:53. > :05:59.because all it did was leave pain, destruction and mayhem and brought

:06:00. > :06:01.us so many years backwards. But there was that opportunity, through

:06:02. > :06:06.the Good Friday Agreement, and that is perhaps where I disagree with the

:06:07. > :06:12.colleagues behind me. That period where we come together in terms of

:06:13. > :06:15.respect for political difference, in terms of power-sharing, in terms of

:06:16. > :06:21.working together on the issues that matter to the people, and, I would

:06:22. > :06:24.hope, that on the far side of this election, that there is that

:06:25. > :06:29.opportunity for the restoration of the political institutions and that

:06:30. > :06:34.there's parallel negotiations to deal with these issues that are

:06:35. > :06:41.outstanding, that seemed to drag us down, that seem to give excuses for

:06:42. > :06:45.people both in Sinn Fein and the DUP to not allow the institutions to be

:06:46. > :06:50.fully functional. Because I say to all of them that the people on the

:06:51. > :06:54.doors in the last few weeks say, we want political institutions will

:06:55. > :06:58.stop we want faith in those institutions. We want them working

:06:59. > :07:05.and we want them delivering for us, on whether its health, spiralling

:07:06. > :07:08.waiting lists out of control, education, budgets that could not be

:07:09. > :07:14.agreed for schools on a rolling three-year pattern, are you rolling

:07:15. > :07:18.three-year programme, and investment in our economy, our jobs, our

:07:19. > :07:23.tourism. That's what young people want to see. They want to see hope,

:07:24. > :07:27.they want to see a future, and they want to see a reason for staying and

:07:28. > :07:33.remaining in Northern Ireland. So if I get back to the substance of the

:07:34. > :07:35.debate. The SDLP agrees that the processes in relation to

:07:36. > :07:43.investigations and prosecutions and legacy cases must be balanced and

:07:44. > :07:47.fair, and how we deal with the past in Northern Ireland must be shaped

:07:48. > :07:53.and guided by terms set by victims and survivors, with truth and

:07:54. > :07:56.accountability at the core. And all of the parties in Northern Ireland

:07:57. > :08:02.agreed the amnesty should not be the basis for dealing with the past and

:08:03. > :08:08.that was the subject of the negotiations and then the subsequent

:08:09. > :08:12.Stormont House Agreement. But there are a number of ongoing enquiries in

:08:13. > :08:17.relation to inquests as opposed to the pursuit of possible

:08:18. > :08:20.prosecutions. On prosecutions like inquests do bring closure and

:08:21. > :08:26.justice to families, as in the ongoing case which was referred to

:08:27. > :08:30.by the right honourable member for Lagan al -- Lagan Valley. Those

:08:31. > :08:34.people were my neighbours and my friends and some of them indirectly

:08:35. > :08:38.related to me, and they still awake that justice. The police ombudsman's

:08:39. > :08:44.report has been published, which refers to a significant element of

:08:45. > :08:50.collusion by the then RUC. Those issues need to be addressed and

:08:51. > :08:52.there needs to be closure brought to the families, because truth and

:08:53. > :08:57.accountability are particularly important. But I also think I've the

:08:58. > :09:01.families of Whitecross, the baby brothers, and also Kingsmill, where

:09:02. > :09:08.many men wear killed on that particular night. All of those

:09:09. > :09:11.people deserve justice right across the community. And there were many

:09:12. > :09:20.soldiers and many policemen who were killed and I can think of what

:09:21. > :09:23.happened to the men on the road in 1991 and I remember well that Monday

:09:24. > :09:28.morning seeing the smoke rising out of the ground, when there was a

:09:29. > :09:33.large crater and something like six men dead. And I remember my

:09:34. > :09:41.predecessor going to the scene and what he saw, what he saw would never

:09:42. > :09:47.ever be repeated again, but firmly I believe that no one in this House or

:09:48. > :09:53.outside this House should be above the rule of law and we must remember

:09:54. > :09:57.that. That the rule of law must prevail. And that means the

:09:58. > :10:02.government has to be very careful. I say this to the Secretary of State

:10:03. > :10:06.and to his ministerial colleagues, both in the Cabinet and in the front

:10:07. > :10:13.bench, that we must support the judicial system and we must ensure

:10:14. > :10:17.that is respected, and I know reference has been made by the

:10:18. > :10:24.Shadow Minister to the statistics given by the PSNI, and I have seen

:10:25. > :10:29.those statistics, and in fact I would say this as a cautionary

:10:30. > :10:32.statement here, that the Assistant Chief Constable Marcus Beale ten in

:10:33. > :10:39.the PSNI, who has direct responsibility for this -- Marcus

:10:40. > :10:44.Hamilton. He said on the 2nd of February, a public perception that

:10:45. > :10:49.there a disproportionate focus on military cases, but they form part

:10:50. > :10:52.of what we're doing. I have a full team, those four teams are doing

:10:53. > :10:57.reviews against a list of cases at the minute and none of those are

:10:58. > :11:04.military. Either full team working on the runs and that doesn't relate

:11:05. > :11:08.to the military at all. So I say to the government there is a cautionary

:11:09. > :11:11.word there, we must take everything in terms of proportionality and we

:11:12. > :11:18.must ensure that there is fairness and balance in all of this. And at

:11:19. > :11:22.the end of the day, we must ensure the Secretary of State said it at

:11:23. > :11:26.oral questions, that the campaign, the election campaign, must be

:11:27. > :11:31.conducted in a manner that allows for the speediest return to

:11:32. > :11:35.partnership government and I just question and I say this also to the

:11:36. > :11:41.DUP, that to have this debate during an election period, does that

:11:42. > :11:44.infringe the purdah period? I see other elements, where Sinn Fein

:11:45. > :11:48.ministers have been making announcements. I know is a former

:11:49. > :11:52.minister during an election period that was not possible in previous

:11:53. > :11:57.years. I say those things, I'm quite happy to give way. Madame Deputy

:11:58. > :12:03.Speaker I thank the Honourable Lady for giving way. The timing of this

:12:04. > :12:06.debate was agreed with the government Chief Whip long before

:12:07. > :12:11.there was any sense of an election in Northern Ireland and long before

:12:12. > :12:15.the date for the election was set, and we should not, as members of

:12:16. > :12:19.Parliament, from be impeded from carrying out our duties to represent

:12:20. > :12:22.the people who elected us to come here, because there's an election to

:12:23. > :12:26.a devolved assembly. Any more than the honourable lady's colleagues in

:12:27. > :12:31.Dublin in another jurisdiction taking part in political activity

:12:32. > :12:36.today should be impeded. Could I thank the right from a gentleman his

:12:37. > :12:39.intervention. I take note of what he says. But in conclusion, because I

:12:40. > :12:45.realise there are other people who want to speak here today, that we

:12:46. > :12:50.respect and upholds the inquest system. We make no apologies for

:12:51. > :12:54.that. We defend the system, when government makes any attempt to move

:12:55. > :12:57.against it for their own convenience, and I should say that I

:12:58. > :13:01.felt the Prime Minister was particularly partisan yesterday,

:13:02. > :13:04.particularly in an election period where you need to be even and

:13:05. > :13:11.balanced and fair. So in conclusion I look forward to the far side of

:13:12. > :13:14.the election, when we do have those political institutions up and

:13:15. > :13:21.running and we do have those parallel initiations, and we need no

:13:22. > :13:25.interregnum. Work needs to continue and we need to be seen to do

:13:26. > :13:34.delivering for people with a sound government. It's a pleasure to speak

:13:35. > :13:37.on this issue. As a former by time Ulster Defence Regiment soldier I

:13:38. > :13:41.was also very proud to wear the uniform in days gone by --

:13:42. > :13:45.part-time. I made friendships with those who put their lives on the

:13:46. > :13:52.line for security and freedom. There is an exemplary history of personnel

:13:53. > :13:55.service, to all the Armed Forces, and I speak in my office daily with

:13:56. > :14:00.widows, children and family of those who were murdered during service for

:14:01. > :14:02.Queen and country. This is a debate my honourable friend and colleague

:14:03. > :14:09.for Lagan Valley set the scene so very well, which is not only with

:14:10. > :14:13.those intimately affected with this but ex-service personnel and current

:14:14. > :14:16.service personnel, every man and woman in this chamber and further

:14:17. > :14:19.afield, who have had their right to life protected by people they will

:14:20. > :14:23.never meet but to whom they owe an eternal gritters destitute --

:14:24. > :14:30.gratitude will stop I'm very happy to give way. Mail in behalf of so

:14:31. > :14:38.many other members of the house a huge tribute which is not often

:14:39. > :14:45.said, to the politicians of Northern Ireland, who actually are and have

:14:46. > :14:48.been and is huge threat, just as much threat as members of the Royal

:14:49. > :14:54.Ulster Constabulary or the Armed Forces, and every day they continue

:14:55. > :15:00.to do their duty to look after their constituents, and we pay tribute to

:15:01. > :15:04.you. Thank you, the honourable gentleman is a very salient point to

:15:05. > :15:07.make and we thank him for his gallant service he has given

:15:08. > :15:11.Northern Ireland as well and he, as a soldier, gave a magnificent

:15:12. > :15:16.contribution to the peace process we have in Northern Ireland and we

:15:17. > :15:20.thank you for that in this chamber. I am known, sometimes may not know,

:15:21. > :15:27.to be a fiery person. I believe it's the Scots blood I have in my veins.

:15:28. > :15:30.With great restraint I've viewed the attempts by many in the so-called

:15:31. > :15:33.shared society to rewrite the history of the Troubles vile

:15:34. > :15:38.provenance and they are blackening the name of men and women who have

:15:39. > :15:42.heard nothing other than praise. In this regard Gerry Kelly has shown

:15:43. > :15:49.disregard for James Ferris, who was stabbed and died at his home via

:15:50. > :15:53.land should be roundly condemned. There's nothing romantic about the

:15:54. > :15:59.Maze Prison break-out and the death of a police officer and that it

:16:00. > :16:04.should be a glorified offering shows of valid -- level of disrespect and

:16:05. > :16:08.sensitively, a lack of remorse as appalling and the suggestion that

:16:09. > :16:16.prison officers were shot, stabbed and beaten is acceptable is... The

:16:17. > :16:19.bizarre word of Sinn Fein coming to rewrite facts, failing to astound

:16:20. > :16:22.and wound the good people of the province, where most especially the

:16:23. > :16:26.thousands who have been traumatised by IRA terrorism. I want to remind

:16:27. > :16:30.people in the chamber today of the real story there, that of a man who

:16:31. > :16:33.served Queen and country handlers had his life ripped away by

:16:34. > :16:40.terrorists. Remember me that sacrifice as well. As a classified

:16:41. > :16:46.files were opened, am I the only one, I know not, who, I don't

:16:47. > :16:50.believe this to be the case, who is sick, sore and tired of personal

:16:51. > :16:55.opinion is that turn into a tax upon past serving soldiers and in this

:16:56. > :17:02.case the members of the UDR. I will fend for this referred to it,

:17:03. > :17:07.salting to the extreme. I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment and

:17:08. > :17:11.every one of those part-time UDRs members I was serving with were

:17:12. > :17:14.wonderful people, male and female, who joined to stop terrorism from

:17:15. > :17:22.whatever source it came from. Let me remind you of the facts, the facts

:17:23. > :17:26.are the UDR full-time and part-time soldiers who served, work long hours

:17:27. > :17:29.and a massive threat, checking in with clients, living in the eye of

:17:30. > :17:34.the storm daily along with their entire families, 180 sold -- 187

:17:35. > :17:38.soldiers were killed, the majority of its -- the majority of duty.

:17:39. > :17:44.These are the facts of the case. You can't deny them. I, along with most

:17:45. > :17:48.upstanding moral people have been horrified to learn that 1004 Humber

:17:49. > :17:54.soldiers many in their 60s and 70s were to be investigated fatal

:17:55. > :17:58.incidents. These were men who gave up family life, who witnessed

:17:59. > :18:01.horrors, who were subjected to horrific life changing scenes, they

:18:02. > :18:05.helped dying comrades in their arms, they surged rubble for members of

:18:06. > :18:10.their team and are now having to deal with this whilst wearing the

:18:11. > :18:13.Queens colours, is subject to investigation is now. I understand

:18:14. > :18:17.very well the concept of closure and what the injustice, I want justice

:18:18. > :18:23.for my cousin Kenneth Smith, murdered by the IRA. I want justice

:18:24. > :18:28.for the four UDR men that the honourable member refers to, some of

:18:29. > :18:37.whom I knew personally. And yet there is no multi-million pounds

:18:38. > :18:48.investigation available for that. One life is worth more than another,

:18:49. > :18:53.it's not, never will be. It can never do, and why should it, I

:18:54. > :18:58.called this government to round and take the only thing they can do and

:18:59. > :19:03.make sure our people are given the credit and given the fairness they

:19:04. > :19:09.should have. The investigation of bogus -- bogus claims made to

:19:10. > :19:13.defraud the MoD and destroy the reputation of the Armed Forces, it

:19:14. > :19:17.can never be allowed to happen and the intimidation of soldiers must be

:19:18. > :19:24.assessed and supported. There must be an assurance I believe for these

:19:25. > :19:27.soldiers through this farce of a procedure will never be allowed to

:19:28. > :19:32.happen again. Actions should be swifter than this, credible claims

:19:33. > :19:35.should be distinguished more quickly from the bogus ones and innocent

:19:36. > :19:43.until proven guilty should be the fallback position. With the greatest

:19:44. > :19:51.of respect I want to make, the do investigation by the Defence Select

:19:52. > :19:54.Committee, I congratulate all of those involved in the scrutiny.

:19:55. > :19:58.Because of that I hope the lessons will be learned by all others. Never

:19:59. > :20:01.should claims without evidence be progressed. Never should serving

:20:02. > :20:10.police officers, never believe -- leave a man. Those who are facing a

:20:11. > :20:17.republican agenda, as freedom fighting terrorism, today,... With

:20:18. > :20:23.the honourable gentleman agree with me and I think the whole House is

:20:24. > :20:26.incredibly moved by his words and I think he would agree with me, from

:20:27. > :20:32.what he's saying so movingly and eloquently, that is a House,

:20:33. > :20:36.regardless of party, we owe a huge debt to all of these people and I'm

:20:37. > :20:40.sure he would join me with me and saying that and I would wish to join

:20:41. > :20:42.with him in sharing his views that as I say he's expressing so movingly

:20:43. > :20:54.and eloquently to this house. If we in this party want is set the

:20:55. > :20:57.record straight for future generations. The atrocities during

:20:58. > :21:03.the trouble from whatever side the Rose was nothing more than words.

:21:04. > :21:08.There is no glory, there is no honour in wives without husbands. No

:21:09. > :21:12.honour in children without a father. Novelli Crier rant bombs that took

:21:13. > :21:16.the lives of men and women within the women of women out shopping.

:21:17. > :21:19.There is no victory in the indiscriminate slaughter of peoples

:21:20. > :21:22.worshipping in church Sunday morning. It is a legacy of men and

:21:23. > :21:27.women who gave their all for freedom and democracy. The honour belongs to

:21:28. > :21:31.those who lead their lives with the sorrow of great flaws but chose not

:21:32. > :21:34.to retaliate. Their valley cries for those who asked for the memory of

:21:35. > :21:38.their loved ones not to be tarnished. Victory belongs to the

:21:39. > :21:43.right-thinking people of Northern Ireland to have chosen to support

:21:44. > :21:46.the rule of law and justice under waiting for us to give them the

:21:47. > :21:53.support they deserve. We remember the truth, we stand to honour those

:21:54. > :22:03.who are falling but we also promise to protect their legacy.

:22:04. > :22:11.Thank you. What a moving speech from the Honourable member. I would like

:22:12. > :22:16.to congratulate the member for Lagan Valley for a very powerful speech

:22:17. > :22:20.that really set the tone for today. I'm really pleased that this debate

:22:21. > :22:23.is happening but I had hoped to have won ourselves but we were not

:22:24. > :22:27.allowed to have it until after the elections falls very well indeed and

:22:28. > :22:33.congratulations to everyone. The whole point is looking for fairness

:22:34. > :22:39.and balance in the way justice is far but what I want to really get

:22:40. > :22:42.across, this is not just a Northern Ireland problem. These were our

:22:43. > :22:46.troops from the whole of the United Kingdom. This is a problem that this

:22:47. > :22:51.house must embrace all the way through. We cannot just say it

:22:52. > :22:56.relies on the legacy to be sorted out at Stormont. Yes, we have a huge

:22:57. > :23:00.part to do at Stormont and all of us want to see it sold us a call really

:23:01. > :23:05.for unity. Everyone pulling together so that we come up with a solution.

:23:06. > :23:10.If we do not have storm in her after this election the duty falls on this

:23:11. > :23:14.house. It falls on all of us to find that right way forward and let's

:23:15. > :23:20.ensure that we do that. I've always wanted all the way through my time

:23:21. > :23:23.to say a huge thank you to all of those who served in Northern

:23:24. > :23:28.Ireland. That's not just the soldiers of the security forces. It

:23:29. > :23:31.is also those in the community. The political. There are mass of people

:23:32. > :23:39.have done so much work and are doing so much work. Those of the people we

:23:40. > :23:44.should be praising. In my own party I've ex-servicemen who are all show

:23:45. > :23:48.the path we've all been through. And particularly anti-Allen who lost his

:23:49. > :23:54.legs and his eyesight in Afghanistan and was one of the greatest heroes

:23:55. > :23:59.we have got to us today is one of our members of the assembly. Someone

:24:00. > :24:04.who's really gritted his teeth and found a way forward. That is the

:24:05. > :24:10.pride that we all must have. I was pleased to see the report being

:24:11. > :24:16.mentioned from the defence committee which the Honourable member for

:24:17. > :24:21.Plymouth had put together. Which has two Riddick recommendations on it

:24:22. > :24:26.but extremely sad to see the way the Government dealt with it. They took

:24:27. > :24:30.it from under him. In the house and wonderful recommendations as to how

:24:31. > :24:34.we should be looking at future investigations. If I have any

:24:35. > :24:40.complaint it is because it only talks future. It be talking about

:24:41. > :24:43.present and future investigations. It is good that this has been closed

:24:44. > :24:49.down bubbly to look at the recommendations that are in that

:24:50. > :24:56.report. There are good ideas there and this how should take them all on

:24:57. > :25:00.board. Last weekend I met someone, a senior officer in the services, who

:25:01. > :25:05.told me that he came home the other day to his house to find that two

:25:06. > :25:11.plainclothes detectives had been knocking out his door asking about

:25:12. > :25:19.the past. His wife naturally was concerned. The children very

:25:20. > :25:25.concerned. Yet that is just one example that is why we're having a

:25:26. > :25:28.debate today. Let's the most of not just that report but the chance that

:25:29. > :25:34.we have got and work together. We've really got to find a way through

:25:35. > :25:38.this. Their rugged mechanisms in place for stop the historic

:25:39. > :25:42.enquiries unit, good idea but we must make sure that does not mean

:25:43. > :25:45.we're looking at cases twice we must, and it would be better to give

:25:46. > :25:51.the same powers to the police force and carry on with what we're doing

:25:52. > :25:56.now but make sure that they have the right powers and resources to carry

:25:57. > :26:01.on and conclude all the matters. We have got to take on board that there

:26:02. > :26:06.is a tarnishing and blackening the security forces continually in

:26:07. > :26:14.Northern Ireland. Always in the papers every week and we do nothing

:26:15. > :26:17.about it from outside. -- from our side. If you follow Sinn Fein of

:26:18. > :26:24.what they have been doing about this nicely to the tarnishing that goes

:26:25. > :26:29.on, they have a continual intention of continually doing down our armed

:26:30. > :26:33.services. There will call them Imperial, they will call them

:26:34. > :26:38.undisciplined, but we know from 250,000 serving their that in most

:26:39. > :26:41.cases they were the most professional. We've got to support

:26:42. > :26:48.them. Got to make sure things are fair. What started was the major

:26:49. > :26:53.Hutchins Case and I'm very pleased to see the whole house pulling

:26:54. > :26:57.together and making sure that we are looking at this. I work in the prime

:26:58. > :27:01.Minster's comments of being their balance and proportion but we've got

:27:02. > :27:07.to do it now. We cannot just keep waiting. We've got to keep going. I

:27:08. > :27:15.know I'm running out of time and I'm happy to give way.

:27:16. > :27:22.Very quickly, surely a political decision allows people sentenced

:27:23. > :27:24.from 125 year to only three was a political decision. It could be made

:27:25. > :27:31.here to sort out this problem. Very much. The Honourable member is

:27:32. > :27:35.right. It is a political decision and we have the chance to make sure

:27:36. > :27:39.that we must not be giving amnesties to the terrorist. We must find a way

:27:40. > :27:43.forward that does not have equivalents. We must find a way

:27:44. > :27:47.forward that resolves at all and it is possible if we'll sit down

:27:48. > :27:51.together and actually do it. We need the truth and justice for the

:27:52. > :27:56.victims and that must be underneath it all the way through. One thing

:27:57. > :28:01.that has bothered me all the way through and I find it uncomfortable.

:28:02. > :28:06.We are written election time here today and been told that we blame it

:28:07. > :28:12.on the Belfast agreement. Belfast, I believe architects of that agreement

:28:13. > :28:15.in this room. The person who proposed the whole motion. We should

:28:16. > :28:24.be working together not attacking each other and it bothers me to hear

:28:25. > :28:32.at times certain members of the party that here with me actually

:28:33. > :28:36.tried to get Jonathan in his book is that they tried to get Tony Blair to

:28:37. > :28:45.write to Ian Paisley at the time to say that they would accept the on

:28:46. > :28:48.the runs and blame it all. I hope that is wrong but I just put that

:28:49. > :28:52.out there because election points where being made today. I get back

:28:53. > :29:01.to my point. Let's all work together and make sure...

:29:02. > :29:05.I would like to thank all the Honourable members who brought this

:29:06. > :29:11.matter board for the bait. I'm going to focus on issues that relate to

:29:12. > :29:13.the IHAT process. Colleagues have fully and eloquently address the

:29:14. > :29:22.situation in relation to Northern Ireland. I was not in this place

:29:23. > :29:26.during the Iraq war or in 2010 when IHAT was established. There are

:29:27. > :29:29.three questions. How got to the point establishing it, what went

:29:30. > :29:33.from the process and where do we go from here. In an earlier debate on a

:29:34. > :29:36.belated topic and Honourable member opposite was no longer in his place

:29:37. > :29:41.set to a colleague of mine the danger of the argument is that the

:29:42. > :29:44.Scottish National Party is turning soldiers from cannon fodder into

:29:45. > :29:47.courtroom fodder. I think that when the Honourable member reflects on

:29:48. > :29:54.that statement you might have regretted the implication is members

:29:55. > :30:02.of our Armed Forces should never be regarded as cannon fodder. It does

:30:03. > :30:07.appear that the last thing... For many members here today, and I am

:30:08. > :30:11.the same, I am very conscious that we ask of Armed Forces to undertake

:30:12. > :30:14.dangerous operations. We may not always agree here with the

:30:15. > :30:18.Government foreign policy or defence strategy but one of the implications

:30:19. > :30:22.of joining the Armed Forces is in part to pass to others the

:30:23. > :30:26.responsibility for deciding who is and who is not an adversarial. Their

:30:27. > :30:30.right to expect the fullest protection we can for people who do

:30:31. > :30:34.a job with commitment and professionalism and they are

:30:35. > :30:36.renowned for that. So they have a right to respect the laws that they

:30:37. > :30:39.are required to be clear. The techniques they are taught to use,

:30:40. > :30:42.the training given and the rules of engagement which they operate under

:30:43. > :30:46.must be in compliance with these laws and they must be kept

:30:47. > :30:49.up-to-date. You hereby grant to this process it seems as though the MoD

:30:50. > :30:58.failed in that aspect of their duty of care. We can endlessly debate the

:30:59. > :31:00.territorial extension versus application of international

:31:01. > :31:04.humanitarian law but in the real world, based on current and past

:31:05. > :31:07.memories of the Armed Forces, you cannot consider this at your leisure

:31:08. > :31:12.if you find a serious allegation made against you. IHAT was set up in

:31:13. > :31:17.a desperate attempt to address that very but it was not the right answer

:31:18. > :31:21.or delivered in the right way. In my constituency I doubt with a case

:31:22. > :31:24.where I had dealt very buggy with a veteran, wasting huge fees also is,

:31:25. > :31:32.sending officers from the South Ringland to Scotland on the wasted

:31:33. > :31:35.journey. The was a clarity about the status and the operated by breaching

:31:36. > :31:39.confidentiality and asking members of the community for his

:31:40. > :31:43.whereabouts, which was unacceptable. Yet not done anything wrong. There

:31:44. > :31:49.is no justification for behaving like some kind of military Sherlock

:31:50. > :31:52.Holmes. There was an ultimate failure for providing pastoral care.

:31:53. > :31:55.I would ask members to reflect white was necessary to put in place such

:31:56. > :31:59.specific resorts as per the Iraq conflict. Is this another of the

:32:00. > :32:03.toxic legacy from the conflict that will disappear over time? It's

:32:04. > :32:07.interesting that with the living changes was the ship from RNP

:32:08. > :32:10.resources to enable police because of a perceived conflict for the RNP

:32:11. > :32:16.carrying out enquiries into their own former cases. Maybe the complex

:32:17. > :32:20.international framework means resources of the kind put in place

:32:21. > :32:23.these to be planned for to make sure it is undertaken with a great deal

:32:24. > :32:28.more professionalism and concern for the well-being of current and former

:32:29. > :32:34.service personnel. Was beaten to the question how we go forward from

:32:35. > :32:37.here. There is an acceptance in the report that the IHAT process has

:32:38. > :32:41.thought of the problems that are caused when many cases foreseeable

:32:42. > :32:47.and avoidable. The first printable that the report recommends to be

:32:48. > :32:50.considered for the future is the importance of the report for service

:32:51. > :32:55.personnel and that goes to the heart of this issue. No one wants to see

:32:56. > :32:59.innocent members of the Armed Forces unfairly accused of wrongdoing. They

:33:00. > :33:04.do a difficult and dangerous job of the most part they do it extremely

:33:05. > :33:08.well. Justice cannot be served as processes are managed in a

:33:09. > :33:11.transparent and expedition way. This important that the MoD accepted that

:33:12. > :33:18.if poor or illegal practices are taught to service personnel the name

:33:19. > :33:22.of needs to step up rather than letting individuals take the blame.

:33:23. > :33:25.Of cases have been disposed of that must be assumed reopening can only

:33:26. > :33:30.occur if compelling evidence is brought forward and similarly, cases

:33:31. > :33:32.should only be opened after ten years and exceptional situations.

:33:33. > :33:39.The decision to outsource the match was an helpful. The blanket closure

:33:40. > :33:41.of IHAT cannot be seen as our primary responses. The desire to

:33:42. > :33:45.distinguish between serious and spurious claims is laudable but no

:33:46. > :33:49.indication has been given about how there can be determined without

:33:50. > :33:52.judicial process. Service personnel deserve to know which judicial

:33:53. > :33:57.process it will be and that choice will be well considered. So action

:33:58. > :34:01.is needed to provide an alternative and avoiding the MOT being allowed

:34:02. > :34:04.to continue with processes that are not independent or transparent. The

:34:05. > :34:13.first solution is just to denigrate from the ECU char because when not

:34:14. > :34:18.prepared, we are potentially copping it with my causing problems. There

:34:19. > :34:23.was a danger of confusing them as what we cannot cannot do in that

:34:24. > :34:28.context. I was disappointed to read that Attorney General's evidence

:34:29. > :34:34.when he confessed to a having no knowledge. Given the history in the

:34:35. > :34:40.badger was attending as a witness that was an extraordinary lack of

:34:41. > :34:47.prepared nests. The Government must not pass responsibility. Differences

:34:48. > :34:52.in interpretation could put our forces and others around them at

:34:53. > :34:54.risk. The Secretary of State for Defence's justification that

:34:55. > :34:57.military advisers that there is a risk of serious the undermining the

:34:58. > :35:01.operational effectiveness of the Armed Forces just does not stack up.

:35:02. > :35:06.It may be unpalatable to them on to the Government, but looking forward,

:35:07. > :35:10.the truth is that that simply means that the MoD rising the defence of

:35:11. > :35:13.human rights and its responsibility to our Armed Forces are they

:35:14. > :35:15.cost-cutting measure. Whatever the solution is, that is no solution at

:35:16. > :35:26.all. Can I start off by thanking everyone

:35:27. > :35:30.that has taken part in the debates today? There have been a number of

:35:31. > :35:34.very powerful speeches and I think a lot of very good points have been

:35:35. > :35:37.made. I am limited by time so I am so they going to cut to some of the

:35:38. > :35:45.observations I wanted to raise coming out of the IHAT issue. None

:35:46. > :35:56.of us want to see members or former members of the Armed Forces treated

:35:57. > :36:01.unfairly. There are a backlog of cases unresolved and many service

:36:02. > :36:04.personnel faced uncertainty over the accusations faced. That is something

:36:05. > :36:11.we're not operable with so we must have adequate resources an

:36:12. > :36:13.investigation of allegations and a system to identify allegations

:36:14. > :36:18.without substance and throw them out, which did not happen initially

:36:19. > :36:26.with IHAT. As I said last year, I would also favour a criminal charge

:36:27. > :36:29.into wasting police time where appropriate, where there have been

:36:30. > :36:33.frivolous allegations made against service personnel is that only

:36:34. > :36:40.served to bog down our investigators, cost taxpayers money

:36:41. > :36:44.and impose suffering on service personnel investigated on spurious

:36:45. > :36:50.grounds. The possibility of pursuing the prosecution of time wasters

:36:51. > :36:56.would prevent unfounded cases being brought and investigated. I also

:36:57. > :37:00.want to comment on the government's decision to derivate from article 25

:37:01. > :37:04.of the European convention on human rights as a response to the

:37:05. > :37:13.situation that arose with IHAT and has been more widely discussed

:37:14. > :37:16.today. I am concerned that that decision sends the wrong message to

:37:17. > :37:20.the rest of the world about our commitment to human rights. To be

:37:21. > :37:24.clear, I believe that service personnel must be held to the high

:37:25. > :37:28.standards of behaviour that we expect but be fully supported by the

:37:29. > :37:32.MOD where allegations are made. That means being offered proper legal

:37:33. > :37:36.representation and support. Allegations must be taken seriously

:37:37. > :37:40.but equally serious must be the consequences of bringing fictitious

:37:41. > :37:45.cases as many of us suspect may have been the case previously. Finally,

:37:46. > :37:50.on the argument put forward by the honourable member for New Forest

:37:51. > :37:58.East at PMQs yesterday and messed mentioned by the Member for Lagan

:37:59. > :38:02.Valley, regarding the use of a statute of limitation in cases. --

:38:03. > :38:07.and mentioned by. Certainly, this is a proposal we should look at

:38:08. > :38:10.seriously. It is certainly worth considering and I hope it is

:38:11. > :38:16.something that can be taken for and investigated properly. Justice being

:38:17. > :38:21.done and includes fairness to Armed Forces personnel, who are entitled

:38:22. > :38:24.to due process, answering the allegations made within a reasonable

:38:25. > :38:30.time frame. There will be exceptions and we have to be careful with these

:38:31. > :38:34.issues. The sources have our support and gratitude for difficult work.

:38:35. > :38:37.They are also defending our values. That means that they must live by

:38:38. > :38:42.the same values they defend with such distinction and we must ensure

:38:43. > :38:56.that we look after our personnel and treat them with fairness. It is a

:38:57. > :38:59.privilege to follow the members for Stirling and East Renfrewshire

:39:00. > :39:01.because I think that we are getting close to the conclusion of the

:39:02. > :39:06.debate today and they have widened the scope of it to the entirety of

:39:07. > :39:13.the content of our motion. Once we have a particular and strong view on

:39:14. > :39:16.the history and experience faced in Northern Ireland, there is a wider

:39:17. > :39:22.challenge for government which the motion seeks to address and I am

:39:23. > :39:24.grateful for those comments. I was mildly apprehensive that coming

:39:25. > :39:30.towards the conclusion of this debate I would find myself repeating

:39:31. > :39:33.points already made. Now that I have been bestowed with the

:39:34. > :39:37.responsibility of summing up the debate, my responsibilities happily

:39:38. > :39:43.live with my apprehensions are so I'm keen to summarise what I think

:39:44. > :39:50.has been an important debate. Given the seriousness, not only of this

:39:51. > :39:53.singular issue, but the wide range of complex political dilemmas that

:39:54. > :40:02.we face in Northern Ireland, we have the rare opportunity to have such a

:40:03. > :40:06.wholesome and fulsome debate. On behalf of my party I hope it is in

:40:07. > :40:11.order for me to thank all those members who have dissipated, either

:40:12. > :40:15.through substantive speeches or interventions. Some of the Neuer

:40:16. > :40:18.date, some pointed but all have contributed to the substance and

:40:19. > :40:22.importance of this debate and for that I am grateful. My my honourable

:40:23. > :40:29.friend, the Member for Lagan Valley, I think commenced this debate are

:40:30. > :40:34.superbly. He did so with a level of dignity that befits this issue. But

:40:35. > :40:41.it cuts to the core of the problem and whilst many members, following

:40:42. > :40:43.his contribution, sort to emulate the aspiration that we would have

:40:44. > :40:53.balance in how we deal with legacy cases, very, very few touched on the

:40:54. > :40:56.core of the problem. And I say this in response to the Secretary of

:40:57. > :41:00.State and I am grateful for the contribution that he made but also

:41:01. > :41:05.to the responding minister. Knowing that you will not be able to give a

:41:06. > :41:11.wholesome commitment, but to keep alive in your mind that to solely

:41:12. > :41:17.leave the resolution to this problem with the Stormont House agreement

:41:18. > :41:22.and the legacy resolutions in Northern Ireland continues to allow

:41:23. > :41:28.a veto by those associated with the greater perpetrators of crime and

:41:29. > :41:32.terror in Northern Ireland, and that would be a shame. If we're going to

:41:33. > :41:38.purposely look at balance, and I think is important that government

:41:39. > :41:43.consider carefully and clearly how they are going to address the

:41:44. > :41:48.imbalance of the provisions of the Good Friday agreement, where

:41:49. > :41:53.terrorists and paramilitaries get a get out of jail free card into two

:41:54. > :41:57.years. It is clearly available in public discourse. It was legislated

:41:58. > :42:01.for and endorsed in a referendum but it is wrong. It is imbalanced,

:42:02. > :42:09.imperfect, and iniquitous to those who struggle with the memory of

:42:10. > :42:15.loved ones. So I do hope that that is a conundrum that we are working

:42:16. > :42:21.to address. Similarly, and it has been gone through in great detail,

:42:22. > :42:25.the other scheme. Consecutive governments, not just a Labour

:42:26. > :42:27.government, but that is where it has found its genesis. The Liberal

:42:28. > :42:34.government created a system where they encourage amnesty or

:42:35. > :42:37.terrorists, where those who had extradition orders sought and

:42:38. > :42:40.whenever pursuit. When people were allowed to travel back into the UK

:42:41. > :42:50.without even the fear or prospect of arrest, enquiry, investigation,

:42:51. > :42:52.never mind prosecution. Even the Director of Public Prosecutions in

:42:53. > :42:57.Northern Ireland, much maligned in all of this, helpfully contributed

:42:58. > :43:06.to the Northern Ireland affairs Select Committee enquiry, and

:43:07. > :43:10.highlighted how did a position this was for investigating authorities.

:43:11. > :43:13.And for as long as there is an imbalance in favour of those who

:43:14. > :43:19.perpetrate crime and terrorism in Northern Ireland, this is an issue

:43:20. > :43:22.that we will continue to raise. I think it is brought in to say that

:43:23. > :43:27.out of the enormous contributions that were made, there are former

:43:28. > :43:34.members of Parliament who could have been here but yet are not. The

:43:35. > :43:39.members for West Tyrone, West Belfast and Armagh, and Mid Ulster,

:43:40. > :43:45.they all have a view on how we should deal with soldiers and

:43:46. > :43:50.servicemen in this country. It has put them in the dock and put them in

:43:51. > :43:52.jail. Yet they are not here and they are not making those

:43:53. > :44:00.representations. They enjoy the veto that they have had up until now but

:44:01. > :44:07.I hope that is something which is going to change. The issues that we

:44:08. > :44:13.have dealt with this afternoon to draw on emotion. We saw that from

:44:14. > :44:17.the honourable lady from Seth Doane. We reflected on her personal

:44:18. > :44:22.experience in Northern Ireland. Our experience has crossed Buzaglo

:44:23. > :44:24.divides. The horrors that our community has faced, individuals

:44:25. > :44:30.sitting around me have faced, is real and does not discriminate

:44:31. > :44:41.across political boundaries. When my honourable friend delves into the

:44:42. > :44:46.emotion of the historical issues we have faced in Northern Ireland, I

:44:47. > :44:50.don't think anyone in this chamber lost the importance of this issue.

:44:51. > :44:55.No matter how personally and deeply affected we may have been in the

:44:56. > :45:04.past, it is real today. And that is why in drafting, as a party, a

:45:05. > :45:11.motion in the name of the Member for Lagan Valley, a motion that we hoped

:45:12. > :45:14.would obtain the unanimous agreement of this House, that the government

:45:15. > :45:16.should bring forward measures to make sure that there is balance,

:45:17. > :45:23.that the honourable member for Seth Antrim, who said in his comments

:45:24. > :45:25.that the duty falls on us all to find a way forward, that is the

:45:26. > :45:34.thing we should focus on. -- South Antrim. I'm not going to spend much

:45:35. > :45:38.time focusing on the latter Cameron is of the contribution because I do

:45:39. > :45:42.not think they were worthy to the entirety of this debate or to the

:45:43. > :45:48.sentiment he was expressing himself. -- his latter comments within his

:45:49. > :45:51.distribution. Having probably not fulfilled my obligation in

:45:52. > :45:56.reflecting the contributions of all of those who participated, I think

:45:57. > :46:01.we have had a most useful, a most important and in most timely debate

:46:02. > :46:06.here this afternoon. The onus very much lies with government. What we

:46:07. > :46:09.are talking about this afternoon cannot be dealt with in Northern

:46:10. > :46:17.Ireland, it cannot be dealt with through the Stormont House

:46:18. > :46:22.structures. The challenge is there, but want us there, the desire, the

:46:23. > :46:29.necessity for balance and fairness and equality that is talked about

:46:30. > :46:38.often. That is there with government and I hope the government takes this

:46:39. > :46:47.opportunity to respond. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to begin by

:46:48. > :46:54.thanking the speakers from all sides of the House. Following on from the

:46:55. > :46:57.Member for East Belfast who was very generous in welcoming all of the

:46:58. > :47:04.contributions from the House some differing views. But the generosity

:47:05. > :47:07.I would like to offer is to the people who spoke with passion on

:47:08. > :47:12.this issue. Having been through the Westminster Hall debates, visiting

:47:13. > :47:21.the tearooms, I have received many dozens of letters from MPs and

:47:22. > :47:28.constituents on this matter. And I know that the Member for Lagan

:47:29. > :47:36.Valley, who I've spoken to about this, was also reflected in the

:47:37. > :47:42.Westminster Hall debate. He clearly, very powerfully led that a few weeks

:47:43. > :47:48.ago. This is an incredibly important subject and one which generates that

:47:49. > :47:53.great strength of feeling. I will try to address some of the issues

:47:54. > :47:59.that have been raised. Before I do so, I think it is important that we

:48:00. > :48:02.put on record this government's deep and abiding admiration for the

:48:03. > :48:07.members of our Armed Forces and police, who have served not only

:48:08. > :48:16.Northern Ireland, but in many other arenas as the motion before us today

:48:17. > :48:19.notes. As the Secretary of State make clear, without it sacrifice,

:48:20. > :48:25.putting their lives at risk to protect the people of Northern

:48:26. > :48:29.Ireland from terrorists, willing to kill, bomb and Maine, and to

:48:30. > :48:33.maintain the rule of law, those people have made that huge effort.

:48:34. > :48:37.The peace process itself would quite simply have not acceded without

:48:38. > :48:43.them. It is also the case that the vast majority of the more then

:48:44. > :48:48.250,000 men and women who served in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and

:48:49. > :48:52.the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland during the troubles carried out

:48:53. > :49:00.their duties with exemplary professionalism. However, the rule

:49:01. > :49:04.of law applies to all and must be allowed to take its course

:49:05. > :49:09.independent of government and political interference.

:49:10. > :49:16.Nevertheless, I would like to acknowledge the concern among many

:49:17. > :49:19.veterans about her past events have been investigated in Northern

:49:20. > :49:23.Ireland. The justice system in Northern Ireland is a devolved

:49:24. > :49:26.matter and the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and

:49:27. > :49:32.assembly. However the government is concerned that the current system,

:49:33. > :49:36.investigating the past, does not reflect the 90% of deaths in the

:49:37. > :49:40.troubles that were caused by terrorists. And overall,

:49:41. > :49:47.disproportionately are focused on the actions of soldiers and police.

:49:48. > :49:50.Reform is needed and in the interests of all, including the

:49:51. > :49:57.victims and survivors who suffered most, that is why the government,

:49:58. > :50:03.this government supports a fool and faithful imitation of the sport

:50:04. > :50:08.house agreement, to bring a new, balanced, and proportionate approach

:50:09. > :50:12.to dealing with Northern Ireland's past, including a new historical

:50:13. > :50:19.investigations unit to take over investigations into outstanding

:50:20. > :50:22.troubles related deaths from the Police Service of Northern Ireland

:50:23. > :50:27.and the police ombudsman. This will include investigations into the

:50:28. > :50:35.murders of nearly 200 soldiers including those killed in the bus

:50:36. > :50:39.bombing and the awful events at Warrenpoint. I would like to turn

:50:40. > :50:41.now to some of the many thoughtful comments made by members of the

:50:42. > :50:49.House. Where I cannot give full details

:50:50. > :50:55.would like to write on some of them because there were some challenging

:50:56. > :51:06.questions and some thought for contributions. The right Honourable

:51:07. > :51:11.gentleman for Ealing North has always given an excellent

:51:12. > :51:17.performance but I know, actually, having spent some time in the house

:51:18. > :51:24.with him, his huge passion for Northern Ireland. Very considered

:51:25. > :51:28.and thoughtful contributions. And actually, somebody who is in

:51:29. > :51:33.forthright in offering me thoughts and exchanging his great knowledge

:51:34. > :51:40.not just in the time I've been in this post but over recent years. And

:51:41. > :51:47.I do PCH 's thoughts and I've bought one particular comment he made about

:51:48. > :51:51.progress in the future requires a settlement of the past I thought was

:51:52. > :51:58.a very, very appropriate thought. And I think it said much of the town

:51:59. > :52:04.on the back of the contribution by the member for Lagan Valley. But at

:52:05. > :52:09.the beginning of the debate talking about that template language that

:52:10. > :52:19.was required in the debates and I thought that was important again. An

:52:20. > :52:22.event in the election period has an opportunity to be unworthy of the

:52:23. > :52:27.South but I think this debate has been very measured and very tempered

:52:28. > :52:33.and I think we all value that contribution for the member from

:52:34. > :52:40.Southdown. My honourable friend the member for Northwest Norwich,

:52:41. > :52:45.Norfolk, my apologies, has inventing my ear on this issue because he is

:52:46. > :52:49.so passionate about this for many many months and I know the

:52:50. > :52:55.leadership is offered to colleagues on my side and on the other side is

:52:56. > :53:03.respected and welcome. One of the points he raised was the fact that

:53:04. > :53:12.the strength of our Armed Forces should be recognised. Quite often we

:53:13. > :53:19.focus upon mistakes and errors and actually those 250,000 people, over

:53:20. > :53:22.30 years were very restrained, made a massive contribution to peace in

:53:23. > :53:26.bringing peace and maintaining peace and maintaining law and order in

:53:27. > :53:34.place quite often that has resulted in chaos. The member for North

:53:35. > :53:38.Antrim also mentioned the issue of 30,000 police officers who regained

:53:39. > :53:41.were very professional in their approach and I have the great

:53:42. > :53:46.privilege of working with many police officers a day who maintain

:53:47. > :53:51.that professionalism. If I move onto the spokesman for the SNP, the

:53:52. > :53:56.member for Edinburgh North and Leith. She talked about education

:53:57. > :54:03.and the duty of those police officers and she raised the issue of

:54:04. > :54:11.the cowardly attack yesterday and will condemn this in the house. This

:54:12. > :54:17.group, this cult of people who are not worthy of living such a

:54:18. > :54:21.wonderful place of Northern Ireland, who are trying to drag it back to

:54:22. > :54:28.that place and that pass which we don't want to return to. Who not

:54:29. > :54:31.only sorts to murder a police officer but actually the impact on

:54:32. > :54:36.the family, the impact on those brave officers that are to go in and

:54:37. > :54:40.actually address that device that was there and the impact on the

:54:41. > :54:45.neighbouring community. We should recognise that massive contribution

:54:46. > :54:48.and we should also just recognise that our security forces and our

:54:49. > :54:59.police will continue to pursue these people and bring them to justice. My

:55:00. > :55:04.honourable friend for Canterbury recognised the balance that was

:55:05. > :55:08.needed actually in trying to address some of the issues and he

:55:09. > :55:12.particularly talked about openly fresh evidence should be brought

:55:13. > :55:17.forward, are only on that response. What to give reassurance on the

:55:18. > :55:22.historical investigations unit. The legislation requiring the HR you

:55:23. > :55:33.will include specific tests that must be met in order that previously

:55:34. > :55:37.completed cases can be reopened for investigation, specifically that new

:55:38. > :55:42.and credible evidence that was not previously available to the

:55:43. > :55:52.authorities is needed before it will open and close cases, suggest to

:55:53. > :55:59.give that reassurance. Will you also except a new element that has been

:56:00. > :56:03.introduced, where there doesn't have to be new evidence possibly claim

:56:04. > :56:09.that there are new ways of looking at the evidence and that is one of

:56:10. > :56:16.three weaknesses in the case he's making.

:56:17. > :56:18.The case is the present system is not appropriate. It is

:56:19. > :56:25.disproportionate and renew the new system. I just laid out the debris

:56:26. > :56:28.get to the point where we can implement the Stormont House

:56:29. > :56:32.Agreement with an assembly that is working and functional then we have

:56:33. > :56:36.an opportunity to address the very points that the honourable gentleman

:56:37. > :56:41.for Canterbury raised in which your believers appropriate. The member

:56:42. > :56:45.for North Belfast North, paid to beat as the Armed Forces as did many

:56:46. > :56:51.others and also commented on the Calgary acts of those who sought to

:56:52. > :57:00.murder a piece of sale yesterday. He raised the bravery. 7000 individuals

:57:01. > :57:05.who were awarded bravery medals as a consequence of their contribution to

:57:06. > :57:09.the operation. And I would also just like to agree with one specific

:57:10. > :57:16.point that he raised which was that this claim that misconduct was rife.

:57:17. > :57:23.The point that he made after that that we won't allow that this

:57:24. > :57:26.history be rewritten and their different narrative, forward. Lots

:57:27. > :57:32.of brave people out there went and serve them sought to bring peace and

:57:33. > :57:35.maintain law and order and there was not rife misconduct in the British

:57:36. > :57:46.forces. There were good people trying very hard to maintain law and

:57:47. > :57:56.order. There had been years and 90% of those that had died had died at

:57:57. > :58:05.the hands of terrorists. The Memphis Southdown have -- the member for

:58:06. > :58:09.Southdown mentioned there should be a positive future for the assembly.

:58:10. > :58:12.And young people wanting help. We all want to make sure we can get to

:58:13. > :58:19.the other side and make that work. The honourable gentleman gave

:58:20. > :58:25.vanishingly emotional speech. He talked about the sick, so I'm

:58:26. > :58:31.tired... He was sick, sour and tired of those attacking the UDR. They

:58:32. > :58:38.were very brave. I came back to my home in Yorkshire and they

:58:39. > :58:43.continued, as many IUC officers did, going home with that threat. Love

:58:44. > :58:49.God to save I've recognise the passion in which she supports them.

:58:50. > :58:56.-- I have got to say. He released his emotions there and we just

:58:57. > :59:00.recognise a good man. The member for Southampton talked about fairness

:59:01. > :59:03.and balance and called for unity and I would say that we will have an

:59:04. > :59:11.obligation, all of us, to make sure we get the other side of the

:59:12. > :59:19.election. And that we seek to make sure we got a working in functioning

:59:20. > :59:25.assembly. I would like to say just to reiterate, this Government

:59:26. > :59:29.commitment to make progress on this issue following the elections next

:59:30. > :59:33.week we'll have a massive obligation. The member for Belfast

:59:34. > :59:38.is that it should not be the people of Northern Ireland and it should be

:59:39. > :59:40.organised. We all want, the Secretary of State herself, we've

:59:41. > :59:48.awkward interests in making this work. We will do anything we can to

:59:49. > :59:59.make that a success. Thank you. The question is as on the order

:00:00. > :00:07.paper. Vote. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:00:08. > :00:13."no". We now come to the backbench business committee debate on

:00:14. > :00:26.unaccompanied children in Greece and Italy. I'm just playing for time

:00:27. > :00:31.while the changeover takes place. Alison McGovern to move the motion.

:00:32. > :00:34.I do. I beg to move the motion as on the order paper relating to

:00:35. > :00:43.unaccompanied children in increase and it's be. The protection of child

:00:44. > :00:48.refugees is not a party political issue. It does not matter on which

:00:49. > :00:52.benches we sit in this house or watercolour rosettes we were on

:00:53. > :00:57.election day. The belief that we have duties and responsibilities to

:00:58. > :01:01.refugee children is not particular to any one political party, to a

:01:02. > :01:05.faction or to an ideology. I would like to start this debate by

:01:06. > :01:11.thanking the other sponsors of the debate, the members for South

:01:12. > :01:15.Cambridge, and for Glasgow North East. And by thanking the backbench

:01:16. > :01:20.business committee for recognising the importance of this issue and the

:01:21. > :01:27.bipartisan nature of the topic in granting us topic the debate today.

:01:28. > :01:30.Just say few days after I presented the application to the committee to

:01:31. > :01:35.secure this debate the Government made an announcement on child

:01:36. > :01:42.refugees and it is there I must start. Let me be clear. The decision

:01:43. > :01:52.to cancel the dubs scheme after admitting only 350 children shames

:01:53. > :01:57.Britain. It must not stand. That amendment, one after a hard fight by

:01:58. > :02:00.activists inside and outside the space was a symbol of recognition

:02:01. > :02:05.from the Government that we can and should do more for those children in

:02:06. > :02:10.need of our help. We all had different views about whether it

:02:11. > :02:14.went far enough but we were united in our belief that we should honour

:02:15. > :02:21.not only our international commitments but also the history and

:02:22. > :02:25.legacy of our country. Lord's dubs of Battersea arrived in Britain a

:02:26. > :02:28.refugee as part of the Kingdom of transport. One of the proudest

:02:29. > :02:36.moments in the history of our country. He himself is living proof

:02:37. > :02:39.that refugees are not a burden to our country or our culture but they

:02:40. > :02:46.are a part of us and a part of the British family. But now this. 350

:02:47. > :02:53.children and the door slams shut. Only around half the number that one

:02:54. > :03:01.man, the great Sir Nicholas Winton, managed to bring to this country. Is

:03:02. > :03:05.this really it? We're not out of that we were led to believe there

:03:06. > :03:11.would be a least 3000 children. Not enough for me but a good start. I am

:03:12. > :03:18.sure I speak for many when I say I am angry that the Government has let

:03:19. > :03:24.us all down. Worse though is the fate of children in Europe today and

:03:25. > :03:27.thought they were coming to Britain. Children from Syria, Somalia or

:03:28. > :03:31.Darfur or who have told journalists that they now may as well clamber

:03:32. > :03:37.onto lorries to get to safety as they have given up on our country

:03:38. > :03:41.keeping its promises. I'm grateful. She says were led to

:03:42. > :03:48.expect would be least 3000 children. Toshiba called a statement by the

:03:49. > :03:52.then Minister -- does she recall the statement that we will record to

:03:53. > :03:58.settling individuals in the first year with a view to setting up to

:03:59. > :04:01.3000 over the lifetime of this parliament majority of whom would be

:04:02. > :04:09.children. Is it clear why this commitment has been broken?

:04:10. > :04:12.My right honourable friend makes a very good point which I will direct

:04:13. > :04:19.to the Minister. It is his responsibility to answer that

:04:20. > :04:22.question today. The Government have made two arguments to justify this

:04:23. > :04:29.decision and I will talk about pull factors in my contribution. But on

:04:30. > :04:33.local authority capacity. It is not true that there is no space left for

:04:34. > :04:36.dubs children in the care of local authorities would in fact, the Home

:04:37. > :04:40.Office cannot make this claim because they have not even asked

:04:41. > :04:45.about dubs spaces for the future. Take Lewisham, for example. They

:04:46. > :04:50.have said they can take 23 children and they have received just one. So

:04:51. > :04:54.how many places were offered by local authorities for dubs children?

:04:55. > :05:00.Does the Home Office even know? If not they say... How can they say

:05:01. > :05:04.there is no places left and I would like to ask the Minister, will he

:05:05. > :05:07.published the biggest. Will you tell us how many children each local

:05:08. > :05:11.authority is taken so that civil society groups and MPs can work with

:05:12. > :05:18.them to try to get more space is open. This house deserves answers.

:05:19. > :05:24.There is much more to be done working with local authorities to

:05:25. > :05:32.resettle children under the scheme. We cannot and should not give up.

:05:33. > :05:34.Would she like, as I would, and I'm sure other members would, to know

:05:35. > :05:41.from the Government how many people have been allowed to come under the

:05:42. > :05:45.Canada sponsorship scheme or the equivalent of the Canada sponsorship

:05:46. > :05:46.scheme. As I understand it so far to people I been accommodated under the

:05:47. > :05:57.scheme. I thank the honourable gentleman for

:05:58. > :06:05.his question. Again, that question must be answered today by the

:06:06. > :06:09.Minister. Now it is deeply depressing to start a debate that

:06:10. > :06:13.was supposed to be focused on how to build on the Dubs amendment by

:06:14. > :06:16.having to refight the same fight over and over again. Because this

:06:17. > :06:21.debate is really about how we can do more for the many are accompanied

:06:22. > :06:25.child refugees stuck in Greece and Italy. I will give way in just a

:06:26. > :06:28.moment. I know that the Minister will talk about the fantastic

:06:29. > :06:36.support this country offers to refugee camps in North Africa, about

:06:37. > :06:40.how much we spend and that we do not want people to attempt the perilous

:06:41. > :06:44.journey across the sea and I wholeheartedly agree with them. It

:06:45. > :06:50.is right that we do everything possible to keep children out of the

:06:51. > :06:55.hands of people traffickers. Now he wants people, least of all children,

:06:56. > :06:58.boarding those boats and making that crossing, but we must move beyond

:06:59. > :07:04.these generalities. We are talking about desperate individuals and the

:07:05. > :07:08.fact is that hundreds of children do board those boats, they do end up in

:07:09. > :07:10.Greece and Italy and when they arrive, they remain vulnerable to

:07:11. > :07:17.the same traffickers who put them on the boats in the first place. They

:07:18. > :07:20.are exploited physically and often sexually and they are made to see

:07:21. > :07:24.and injury things that no child should ever have to. We know that

:07:25. > :07:29.unaccompanied children are the most at risk and we know that as the

:07:30. > :07:33.conflict continues unabated in Syria and parts of Africa, there are more

:07:34. > :07:38.children arriving in Europe without an adult to look after them. I thank

:07:39. > :07:43.the honourable lady for giving way. She is making a passionate case for

:07:44. > :07:48.her view on this but I represent Dover. Across the channel we have

:07:49. > :07:51.the Calais jungle, the biggest migrant magnet, or with people

:07:52. > :07:56.condemned to live in squalor. They are there with the hope of getting

:07:57. > :08:02.into Britain. The problem is that having a situation where we take

:08:03. > :08:07.people in from Europe to simply -- just simply increases the migrant

:08:08. > :08:11.problem. We know that because we are on the front line. As a member of

:08:12. > :08:15.Parliament who also represents a port area of our country, I pay

:08:16. > :08:20.tribute to all those people who work to keep our borders safe. I will

:08:21. > :08:31.come to the argument that the honourable gentleman makes in just a

:08:32. > :08:37.moment. Some of us last night were lucky enough to attend a screening

:08:38. > :08:41.of Ross Kemp's documentary on Libya's migrant nightmare, a

:08:42. > :08:45.harrowing account of what was going on in Libya at the moment. Would she

:08:46. > :08:48.agreed with me, and I think it should be compulsory viewing for

:08:49. > :08:55.everyone in this House, which she agree that given the amnesty on

:08:56. > :09:00.calculations, with one in for four of those making the journey being

:09:01. > :09:04.children, that it is incumbent on us to show more compassion than we are

:09:05. > :09:10.currently in protecting this most vulnerable group? The honourable

:09:11. > :09:15.gentleman makes a very good point and I am sure many would agree with

:09:16. > :09:20.him. To put it simply, the risk for these children does not end when

:09:21. > :09:24.they reached dry land. The boat may be behind them but the danger is

:09:25. > :09:31.not. And we know that the refugee camps are overflowing with children

:09:32. > :09:34.being left outside cold and alone. In Greece, only half of

:09:35. > :09:38.unaccompanied child refugees are in official shelters and the rest are

:09:39. > :09:41.in squats waiting for applications to be processed. Even if they do

:09:42. > :09:46.find shelter, they are very vulnerable indeed and they simply

:09:47. > :09:48.cannot -- this simply cannot go on. We have a duty to help these

:09:49. > :09:56.children and we must not turn them away. One of the interesting points

:09:57. > :09:59.about this is that some of these children have family in this country

:10:00. > :10:02.and I would be interested to know how the Minister will respond to

:10:03. > :10:09.this. Tell us how many of these children have outstanding

:10:10. > :10:14.applications? Thank you. The honourable gentleman again raises an

:10:15. > :10:17.absolutely crucial question. If by the end of this debate the Minister

:10:18. > :10:23.has not answered his question, I think many of us will be up on our

:10:24. > :10:28.feet demanding cancers. We had made great process working -- great

:10:29. > :10:33.progress working with the French authorities to resettle children

:10:34. > :10:37.under Dubs and the legislation where people have only members living in

:10:38. > :10:41.this country. I welcome the progress made on that front but we're asking

:10:42. > :10:45.Greece and Italy, two countries that are not equipped to deal with

:10:46. > :10:51.refugee flows, to accommodate the vast majority. According to Unicef,

:10:52. > :10:54.last year more than 30,000 unaccompanied children arrived in

:10:55. > :10:58.those two countries alone and this is difficult to say the least for

:10:59. > :11:02.these countries. Problematic for Europe and bad for the children

:11:03. > :11:06.themselves. We know that despite our best efforts, children are still

:11:07. > :11:12.making the journey alone. We know that they are riding in Greece and

:11:13. > :11:17.Germany who were not able to deal with all of them. We know it is in

:11:18. > :11:23.their best interests to be transferred to the UK, but why are

:11:24. > :11:28.we not doing more to help? 30 children arrived in France and Italy

:11:29. > :11:35.last night but just eight transferred to the UK. Their best

:11:36. > :11:40.interests lie in a transfer to the UK. I am grateful to my my

:11:41. > :11:46.honourable friend for giving way and congratulations on a speech of great

:11:47. > :11:49.power. Many of us, particularly in the city constituencies, will have

:11:50. > :11:56.extensive experience of working with former unaccompanied children

:11:57. > :11:58.resident in this company. We know that the lengths of insecurity and

:11:59. > :12:03.uncertainty that prevails before they are able to make a successful

:12:04. > :12:06.application often leaves permanent damage to their mental health. Is it

:12:07. > :12:10.not absolutely essential that we cut through this and provide certainty

:12:11. > :12:19.for as many children as we can as quickly as we can. My friend speaks

:12:20. > :12:25.with great experience and I hope the Minister has listened to what she

:12:26. > :12:28.has said. In fact, if he is prepared to really consider this, he should

:12:29. > :12:36.watch the documentary made by Liverpool footballer, Diane

:12:37. > :12:43.Loughran, about his experience as a refugee, and the uncertainty that he

:12:44. > :12:50.has experienced. I would encourage the Minister to take heed. But no

:12:51. > :12:58.wonder that it has taken the best part of a year for many children's

:12:59. > :13:03.application to be processed, leaving them in the limbo that my friend has

:13:04. > :13:08.just mentioned. There are agencies in Greece and Italy working with

:13:09. > :13:11.these referrals but they will not raise the hopes of children of the

:13:12. > :13:15.process is so dire. The government is today must commit to streamlining

:13:16. > :13:18.the system so that agencies and children have confidence in it and

:13:19. > :13:22.can start making referrals quickly. We know that this can be done

:13:23. > :13:26.because it was done in France were hundreds of applications or

:13:27. > :13:30.processed in a matter of weeks. This situation is just not acceptable and

:13:31. > :13:36.we must do more. Finally, Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to address one

:13:37. > :13:39.particular argument that we hear constantly from the government when

:13:40. > :13:47.we talk about resettling refugees. Alignment we have heard repeatedly.

:13:48. > :13:51.Especially when talking about the Dubs amendment. She says that it

:13:52. > :13:57.encourages people traffickers. It acts as an incentive for perilous

:13:58. > :14:03.journeys. We heard it again today. That it is a draw for migrants. Mr

:14:04. > :14:07.Speaker, I think the government must drop this feeble line of argument

:14:08. > :14:12.once and for all. People are not getting on those boats because of

:14:13. > :14:14.pull factor is, they are doing so because they are fleeing war,

:14:15. > :14:19.poverty, famine and exportation in their own countries. Even a refugee

:14:20. > :14:24.camp in Greece or Italy, dangerous though they are, is safer than the

:14:25. > :14:29.hell they are running away from. We know this, the government knows

:14:30. > :14:34.this. If they do not, they should try to understand the reality.

:14:35. > :14:38.McHattie picture of the ruin of Homs or Aleppo and tell me again about

:14:39. > :14:42.pull factor is. -- look at a picture. See the desperation on the

:14:43. > :14:47.faces of starving people in Yemen or Somalia and explain to me again how

:14:48. > :14:51.Dubs is an incentive. Speak to a child escaping forced servitude as a

:14:52. > :14:56.soldier in Eritrea and repeat again to me that our immigration system is

:14:57. > :15:00.a drop. It isn't, it wasn't and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. I asked

:15:01. > :15:03.the Minister this. Does the government have any hard evidence to

:15:04. > :15:09.support this claim and will he produce it? If they do really

:15:10. > :15:14.believe in the pull factor nonsense, there was only one obvious change

:15:15. > :15:18.that the government could make. Under the current system, children

:15:19. > :15:23.and camps in the region can only be applied -- can only apply to be

:15:24. > :15:27.transferred if they have a parent living in the UK to be reunited

:15:28. > :15:31.with. But for children already in Europe, the rule can apply to

:15:32. > :15:36.extended family, grandparents, siblings or aunts and uncles. Many

:15:37. > :15:44.of these children are orphans. I genuinely thank her for giving way.

:15:45. > :15:48.The idea that pull factor is do not exist just because push factors do

:15:49. > :15:54.exist, does she not realise that that is an inappropriate construct.

:15:55. > :16:01.There can be push factors and pull factor is. They are not mutually

:16:02. > :16:04.exclusive. If the honourable gentleman is accepting that safety

:16:05. > :16:08.-- is suggesting that safety is a pull factor. If he is suggesting

:16:09. > :16:12.that not starving is a pull factor, I agree with them. If he is

:16:13. > :16:16.suggesting that escaping the bombs dropping on a child's head is a pull

:16:17. > :16:26.factor, then I entirely agree with him. To return to the point that I

:16:27. > :16:30.was making, this is a debate that will go on. I think it is right that

:16:31. > :16:33.we have this debate out in the open and members who disagree with me

:16:34. > :16:39.will have the chance to make their case, too. I will not give way

:16:40. > :16:44.because I need to finish now. Many of these children are orphans and

:16:45. > :16:47.they do not have parents that they can be reunited with. But the

:16:48. > :16:51.government is effectively saying that a child in a refugee camp in

:16:52. > :16:55.North Africa, with a grandparent in the UK is not eligible, but if they

:16:56. > :17:00.got on a boat and went to Italy, they would be. That is madness. Will

:17:01. > :17:04.the Minister agree to look again at this and allow children in the

:17:05. > :17:08.region to apply under Dublin to be reunited with their extended family

:17:09. > :17:11.in the UK? Mr Speaker, there are many points, as he has heard from

:17:12. > :17:17.members across this House, there are many points that the Minister must

:17:18. > :17:20.address when he speaks. On Dublin, will he commit to improving the

:17:21. > :17:24.system in Greece and Italy. Will he spent more staff, speed up the

:17:25. > :17:29.processing of applications and work with agencies in those countries to

:17:30. > :17:33.identify eligible children. We commit to allowing double in

:17:34. > :17:37.transfers in the region to extensive transfers in the UK? And on Dubs,

:17:38. > :17:40.will he show us the figures on local authority capacity? Will he at least

:17:41. > :17:45.agreed to monitor capacity and increased numbers were possible? And

:17:46. > :17:48.Wilkie, once and for all, drop the pretence that the main thing driving

:17:49. > :17:55.children onto those boats is our immigration system, rather than war,

:17:56. > :17:58.poverty and famine. Mr Speaker, I started by saying this is not a

:17:59. > :18:02.party but it will issue and I stick by that. This is about British

:18:03. > :18:05.values that we all share and our desire to honour those values across

:18:06. > :18:10.Europe and the world. People are questioning whether we mean what we

:18:11. > :18:15.say when we talk about Britain as a welcoming, open, tolerant and decent

:18:16. > :18:19.country. It is up to us to show that we are who we say we are, that we

:18:20. > :18:23.will live up to the legacy of our past, that we will not turn away

:18:24. > :18:29.from the suffering and desperation of children on our own doorsteps who

:18:30. > :18:33.need our help. The question is as on the order paper. Can I suggest to

:18:34. > :18:36.all members that we have up to nine minutes and if everybody can work to

:18:37. > :18:42.that, everybody will get equal time. The Minister now wants to come in.

:18:43. > :18:45.Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I find

:18:46. > :18:50.vulnerable members for bringing this motion to the House? I am grateful

:18:51. > :18:55.for your agreement to allow me to speak early in this debate. -- can I

:18:56. > :18:58.thank honourable members. I thought it would be hopeful to set up the

:18:59. > :19:02.government's position on this important matter at the outset and I

:19:03. > :19:05.want to correct many of the points already made in this debate and in

:19:06. > :19:08.the media. Britain has a proud record of helping the most

:19:09. > :19:12.vulnerable children fleeing conflict and danger and I would like to

:19:13. > :19:15.underline this government's commitment to supporting, protecting

:19:16. > :19:20.and caring for the most vulnerable asylum seeking and refugee children

:19:21. > :19:25.affected by the migration crisis. I would like to start with one thing.

:19:26. > :19:28.This government is absolutely and fully committed to helping and

:19:29. > :19:32.supporting the most vulnerable children. In the last year, we have

:19:33. > :19:37.provided refuge or other forms of relief to more than 8000 children.

:19:38. > :19:42.In the first two weeks of this month alone, we have resettled more than

:19:43. > :19:49.300 refugees to the UK, half of whom are children. Just today, 80 Syrian

:19:50. > :19:52.refugees arrived in Ulster as part of the Syrian vulnerable Persons

:19:53. > :19:56.scheme. The government has certainly not, as some have suggested, closed

:19:57. > :20:00.its doors. The government strategy is to resettle the most vulnerable

:20:01. > :20:06.refugees directly to other regions. That is how we stop traffickers from

:20:07. > :20:09.exploiting vulnerable people and children affected by conflict. By

:20:10. > :20:14.the end of this Parliament, we will have resettled 20,000 Syrian

:20:15. > :20:17.nationals through our vulnerable persons resettlement schemes, one of

:20:18. > :20:20.the biggest resettlement schemes the country has ever undertaken. And a

:20:21. > :20:24.further 3000 vulnerable children and families from the Middle East and

:20:25. > :20:26.North Africa region will have been settled under the vulnerable

:20:27. > :20:32.children is resettlement scheme. I'm pleased to update the House that

:20:33. > :20:36.over 5400 individuals, slightly more than the one that was mentioned by

:20:37. > :20:39.the honourable member have been resettled under the Syrian

:20:40. > :20:45.vulnerable persons scheme since its expansion in October 20 15.

:20:46. > :20:58.The scheme I was referring to was the

:20:59. > :21:07.Canadian sponsorship scheme. I met with representatives and I was

:21:08. > :21:11.in Jordan visiting refugee camps there and we have a scheme in place

:21:12. > :21:15.as part of these 20,000 for community groups to take people to

:21:16. > :21:20.come here. Incidentally, could I confirm, under the dubs proposals if

:21:21. > :21:25.grandparents can show they can care for children than they can come here

:21:26. > :21:28.under Dublin from another EU country. The children must first

:21:29. > :21:32.claim asylum in the country which should be the first set country they

:21:33. > :21:34.reach. Crucially, horror resettlement schemes help ensure

:21:35. > :21:47.that children do not become unaccompanied. They allow children

:21:48. > :21:54.to be resistant with their families. I am grateful for him for setting up

:21:55. > :21:58.the clarity around this issue. I want to be absolutely sure, can you

:21:59. > :22:03.confirm that the Government is still continuing to accept children into

:22:04. > :22:12.this country? As I said, last year we had a

:22:13. > :22:14.roundabout 8000 children and there are 4500 unaccompanied children in

:22:15. > :22:27.local authority care at this moment. We are pledged over to the book --

:22:28. > :22:35.over 2 million. We want other countries to commit to our amount.

:22:36. > :22:41.With committed over 100 million to help alleviate the crisis. I am

:22:42. > :22:48.proud of the part that we have played in this particular matter.

:22:49. > :22:54.Thank you for holding a surgery for MPs to clarify a point and then his

:22:55. > :22:57.brief but could I do is ask him, does he believe that statement on

:22:58. > :23:01.the seventh of brew was on my mother will love this house on the dubs

:23:02. > :23:05.amendment? I will come onto that and it is

:23:06. > :23:07.important that one reads the dubs amendment and looks at the

:23:08. > :23:14.amendments that were rejected by this house in that regard. Within

:23:15. > :23:17.Europe in 2016 be transferred over 900 unaccompanied asylum seekers to

:23:18. > :23:21.the UK from other European countries including more than 750 from France

:23:22. > :23:28.as part of the UK support of the Calle camp clearance. According to

:23:29. > :23:34.the latest resettlement reports on July 2015, the UK has resettled more

:23:35. > :23:38.people towards the's overall resettlement target than any other

:23:39. > :23:45.EU member states and in an 2016 were transferred almost as many children

:23:46. > :23:49.from within Europe as the entire EU relocation. With UK support Unicef

:23:50. > :23:55.aim rough ride shelter, food, essential supplies for 27,000

:23:56. > :23:58.children and babies. UK aid to the Red Cross supported activities

:23:59. > :24:06.including family to nutrition and we also funded a secondment of a child

:24:07. > :24:10.is protection specialist to work in Serbia. In Greece who spent ?28

:24:11. > :24:16.million to support migrants and refugees to keep an such as the

:24:17. > :24:22.UNHCR and the Red Cross. The support has reached more than 250,000

:24:23. > :24:28.people. Thank you for setting up the fax of

:24:29. > :24:32.this matter. Would he agree that we have to be careful about unintended

:24:33. > :24:36.consequences? The sentiments of the other side of the house are very

:24:37. > :24:41.sincere and our good intentions but is the roadster the hell of the

:24:42. > :24:49.Calle jungle is paved with those kind of attention and we cannot have

:24:50. > :24:53.that kind of squalor existing again. We must be of factors that be

:24:54. > :25:00.created when people make statements which can encourage people to enlist

:25:01. > :25:05.people traffickers. I thank the Minister for giving way.

:25:06. > :25:09.Does he recognise the best selling technique for the smugglers is there

:25:10. > :25:16.is no alternative safe and legal route for children to get to safety

:25:17. > :25:23.in the United Kingdom? The hope onto the Grubman Pozner

:25:24. > :25:27.approaches to help them making that journey. These are not orphaned

:25:28. > :25:33.children. These are children whose parents are sending them forward.

:25:34. > :25:37.One looks at the mortality in the Mediterranean weather children make

:25:38. > :25:41.that journey. Factors encourage people to make those jennies and

:25:42. > :25:47.many people sadly end in a watery grave. -- those journeys. Our fund

:25:48. > :25:52.prioritises unaccompanied and separated children. It provides

:25:53. > :25:59.immediate support alongside legal advice and family reunification were

:26:00. > :26:05.possible. In France we responded to a humour Terry and needs in tandem

:26:06. > :26:09.with a sovereign member state. We continue to closely with the French

:26:10. > :26:12.to address the situation in Dunkirk but both the UK and French

:26:13. > :26:16.Government are clear that migrants in northern France want claim

:26:17. > :26:21.asylum, including children, should do so in France and not risk their

:26:22. > :26:24.lives by attempting to enter the UK illegally. The French Government has

:26:25. > :26:31.made clear commitments to provide migrants who have claimed asylum

:26:32. > :26:35.with appropriate support. Those asylum seeking children close family

:26:36. > :26:39.members in the UK, not just parents, can be transferred here for

:26:40. > :26:43.assessment of their claim. We are fully committed to the timely and

:26:44. > :26:46.efficient operation of the Dublin regulation and we support the

:26:47. > :26:50.principle of family unification. We have engage with partners on this

:26:51. > :26:52.issue and we will continue to do so over the coming weeks and months to

:26:53. > :26:56.ensure that children with close family in the UK can be transferred

:26:57. > :27:01.here for assessment of their asylum claim quickly and safely. We're also

:27:02. > :27:14.working closely with the member states to deliver this. If I could

:27:15. > :27:22.make a bit of progress. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am praised deliberate

:27:23. > :27:26.pleased that the Home Secretary will be writing to counterparts to us for

:27:27. > :27:29.referrals for eligible children to the specified number 350. The basis

:27:30. > :27:32.on which these transfers will be made with published in due course.

:27:33. > :27:39.The Government has always been clear that we want... That we do not want

:27:40. > :27:42.to incentivise perilous journey to Europe, particularly by the most

:27:43. > :27:46.honourable children. It is not and has never been the case, as been

:27:47. > :27:51.suggested, that the Government would accept 3000 children from Europe

:27:52. > :27:54.under 67. I would just make this point because this has been

:27:55. > :27:57.misrepresented on many occasions in the past. It has been suggested that

:27:58. > :28:06.the Government would accept 3000 children from Europe under 60 seven.

:28:07. > :28:10.In fact, parliament voted against such an amendment. The legislation

:28:11. > :28:14.is clear that the Government has the obligation to specify the number of

:28:15. > :28:17.children to be relocated and to relocate back number of children to

:28:18. > :28:22.the UK. That is exactly what we're doing. There is been some suggestion

:28:23. > :28:26.that my lead assessor confirmed that 3000 children would come and be

:28:27. > :28:29.resettled. He was actually referring to the vulnerable children to

:28:30. > :28:32.resettlement scheme and we are committed to bringing 3000 children

:28:33. > :28:37.and their families under that scheme by the end of the parliament. We

:28:38. > :28:43.consulted extensively... Are just need to make stop we consulted

:28:44. > :28:47.extensively with local authorities over several months to arrive at the

:28:48. > :28:52.number of additional children that they could take under 67. This

:28:53. > :28:56.included my predecessor biting, and I've also written to all local

:28:57. > :29:05.authorities, in national want of the event and over ten regional events

:29:06. > :29:08.in every part of England. Over 400 local authority brothers and sisters

:29:09. > :29:13.attended the regional events. In order to help local authorities care

:29:14. > :29:17.for over 4000 children already in their care we have launched a

:29:18. > :29:19.national transfer scheme and significantly increased funding for

:29:20. > :29:26.unaccompanied asylum seeking children. Children by between 20%

:29:27. > :29:34.and 20%. Should be clear that the knot by night 7% is not a target, it

:29:35. > :29:37.is an indication of when it would not be appropriate to transfer for

:29:38. > :29:45.the children to that local authority.

:29:46. > :29:48.I will give way. Several local authorities including Glasgow City

:29:49. > :29:52.Council have spoken to say that they were not consulted on their capacity

:29:53. > :29:58.to house refugees and they do remain ready, able and willing to accept

:29:59. > :30:03.more and shelter more unaccompanied children. Will the Minister clarify

:30:04. > :30:06.if his department regularly re-consult with local authorities to

:30:07. > :30:11.maintain an up-to-date overview of capacity for the children?

:30:12. > :30:14.I engage regularly with local authorities will double their places

:30:15. > :30:17.in Scotland then please make them available for national transfer

:30:18. > :30:21.scheme because we have local authorities in the south of England,

:30:22. > :30:26.particularly in Kent in Croydon, that are running over capacity. If

:30:27. > :30:39.spaces are available for the national transfer scheme.

:30:40. > :30:43.Can I just say, can I take him back to the point he was making about the

:30:44. > :30:49.numbers of staff from the Home Office who are in France and Greece

:30:50. > :30:52.and Italy? I want to ask. What he was saying was that they wanted

:30:53. > :30:55.stuff out there to help with this scheme but at the dinner meeting

:30:56. > :30:58.that we had with him he mentioned there was only one member of the

:30:59. > :31:02.Home Office staff out there. Can I suggest the run more stuff out there

:31:03. > :31:08.then there would be more confidence in the right children being referred

:31:09. > :31:15.under the scheme. We have 115 staff increased at the

:31:16. > :31:18.minute. Not least the successful operation of the Turkey agreement

:31:19. > :31:29.which is preventing children making this perilous journeys.

:31:30. > :31:32.I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way but can I take him back

:31:33. > :31:36.to a point that I made in my honourable friend earlier? Any time

:31:37. > :31:42.how many outstanding applications for children who have got relatives

:31:43. > :31:45.in this country and want to come to this country?

:31:46. > :31:50.I can certainly let him have that number but of course following the

:31:51. > :31:53.clearance of the Calle camp we have accelerated Dublin plate process and

:31:54. > :31:59.the majority of the 750 children everybody across from France work

:32:00. > :32:02.children under the Dublin process. When children think they have a

:32:03. > :32:06.claim under the Dublin procedure what they need to do is claim asylum

:32:07. > :32:09.in the country there are in and therefore they can be fed into the

:32:10. > :32:16.Dublin process will Dobbs is important they do that first.

:32:17. > :32:22.The independent anti-slavery Commissioner visited Italy last year

:32:23. > :32:25.made recommendations and said about the Dublin process that simply the

:32:26. > :32:28.process is not working for children will start their taking too long,

:32:29. > :32:32.combined the back of clear information about how places work in

:32:33. > :32:40.terms of specific updates about the case. It is not working. And we need

:32:41. > :32:43.to ensure that for the benefit of the children networks for the good

:32:44. > :32:46.of them and their relatives. Is there going to be a response to the

:32:47. > :32:52.corner from the independent anti-slavery Commissioner?

:32:53. > :32:56.It is indeed very important that the Dublin process works effectively and

:32:57. > :32:59.also takes into account the safeguarding of the children and

:33:00. > :33:02.shakes do need to be made to ensure that the family connection is a

:33:03. > :33:06.genuine one but also that those children will be cared for and

:33:07. > :33:10.indeed, we have had a number of children admitted under the Dublin

:33:11. > :33:14.protocol where actually that has not worked out and that is why the

:33:15. > :33:19.specified number that was set with local authorities has left some

:33:20. > :33:24.slack in there. 50 places for failed Dublin B locations. We sped back to

:33:25. > :33:29.be a minimum number. The Minister has medical shall point

:33:30. > :33:35.here. That so many children who have come here by asylum or Irish

:33:36. > :33:38.refugees, who are originally put with family members, are actually

:33:39. > :33:42.being part of the trafficking system. And they've ended up being

:33:43. > :33:45.trafficked. His crucial point and I'm glad the Government recognises

:33:46. > :33:49.that. Precisely. Those answer the point

:33:50. > :33:52.that my honourable friend has made before I may take another

:33:53. > :33:56.intervention. That is why the chicks need to be made and it is also why

:33:57. > :34:00.give resources to local authorities ensure that they can themselves

:34:01. > :34:08.check the welfare of the children. I will certainly give way. I wonder

:34:09. > :34:14.if he could give an exact same detailed analysis and responds to

:34:15. > :34:19.the honourable gentleman about how many people have been convicted in

:34:20. > :34:24.the UK for such trafficking in the last year. How many people have been

:34:25. > :34:29.convicted for those offences and also, he wouldn't mind laying out in

:34:30. > :34:35.the House of Commons library for us the evidence, Pat surveys that has

:34:36. > :34:38.led him to emphasise the pool factors. Has there been a survey

:34:39. > :34:40.done of people coming in because I would like to know what the evidence

:34:41. > :34:47.is? Certainly we take the prosecution

:34:48. > :34:50.and detection of people trafficking crime very seriously, particularly

:34:51. > :34:54.working closely with our French colleagues. I was last week in

:34:55. > :34:58.Holland and Belgium meeting with my opposite numbers and we have joint

:34:59. > :35:03.operations at the ports to insure these people trafficking gangs can

:35:04. > :35:06.be arrested and prosecuted and there has been a number of situations

:35:07. > :35:09.where that has happened and I will give the actual numbers but there

:35:10. > :35:13.have been a number of successful prosecutions.

:35:14. > :35:16.I would like to make a bit process if May. Want to talk about the

:35:17. > :35:20.trafficking issue that has been raised. I want to address the issue

:35:21. > :35:25.of trafficking put up must make clear one thing in particular. The

:35:26. > :35:29.Government agrees that is safe legal routes can help combat trafficking.

:35:30. > :35:33.That is why we have six other legal routes by which children can safely

:35:34. > :35:39.come to the United Kingdom. But the migration crisis has shown that

:35:40. > :35:43.factors such as policy changes and political messaging can influence

:35:44. > :35:47.the movement of migrants. There must be reasonable example why around

:35:48. > :35:51.2000 asylum seekers in the EU last year chose Germany and Sweden. And

:35:52. > :35:54.it is important to note they did so after passing through many save

:35:55. > :35:59.countries on the route. But whether it is push or pull factors that

:36:00. > :36:02.motivate these children to come to Europe, it must surely always be

:36:03. > :36:06.within the charred's best interests to enable them to come before the

:36:07. > :36:07.need to make dangerous journey to your about before they become

:36:08. > :36:16.unaccompanied. The government's priority is to

:36:17. > :36:24.focus on the most vulnerable children fleeing conflict and the

:36:25. > :36:28.persecution of the region. Whilst the Minister is just laying out the

:36:29. > :36:33.government's priority is here, can he be clear about what he has said

:36:34. > :36:39.about capacity increase? He says we have 115 staffing increases. Of

:36:40. > :36:43.those, -- staff in Greece. Of those, how many are working on transfers to

:36:44. > :36:50.the UK? I could give you the figures but we have 115 people there. Our

:36:51. > :36:53.work in Calais showed that there are only a handful of children from

:36:54. > :37:00.Syria. I know this motion talks specifically about children from

:37:01. > :37:03.Syria, and she talked about children fleeing Aleppo and horrible

:37:04. > :37:08.situations in Syria. In that case, would she be surprised to note that

:37:09. > :37:15.of the 750 children that came from Calais during equivalence, less than

:37:16. > :37:18.ten came from Syria. That is why I believe we are doing the right thing

:37:19. > :37:26.in going to the refugee camps and working with UNHCR, ruling out

:37:27. > :37:29.similar schemes to the ones that the Australians, Canadians and Americans

:37:30. > :37:34.have been delivering, to enable both children and the most need to come

:37:35. > :37:36.to the UK. If our aim is a country is to help those most in need

:37:37. > :37:42.fleeing conflict and persecution, then the government strategy is the

:37:43. > :37:45.right one. I welcomed the statement last week by the UN High

:37:46. > :37:50.Commissioner for refugees, where he said that in relation to

:37:51. > :37:54.resettlement, the UK is doing very remarkable things. The UK has a

:37:55. > :37:58.proud history of providing protection for those in need and we

:37:59. > :38:01.will continue to play our part in protecting the most vulnerable

:38:02. > :38:05.children affected by the migration crisis. The government has taken

:38:06. > :38:08.significant steps to improve an already come brands of approach to

:38:09. > :38:15.supporting asylum seeking and refugee children. We will continue

:38:16. > :38:19.to work to address the migration crisis and I believe the UK can be

:38:20. > :38:22.proud of its overall contribution to date and proud that we will continue

:38:23. > :38:28.to deliver on the programmes I have described.

:38:29. > :38:36.Can I congratulate my my honourable friend the Member for 1-1 south, the

:38:37. > :38:42.Member for South East Cambridgeshire and others, for securing this

:38:43. > :38:45.important and timely debate. -- the member forward or so. Can I start by

:38:46. > :38:48.welcoming the water government has done to support refugees, the work

:38:49. > :38:59.that has been done to invest in camps in the region, to set up the

:39:00. > :39:02.Syrian vulnerable persons refugee scheme, and also the work that was

:39:03. > :39:06.done last autumn to clear the Calais camp and get children into safety.

:39:07. > :39:12.There has been a lot of important work done including by the Minister

:39:13. > :39:15.that has just spoken and by the Home Secretary is well and we should

:39:16. > :39:19.welcome that. I pay tribute to the work they did with the French

:39:20. > :39:25.authorities in the autumn which got a lot of kids out of deeply

:39:26. > :39:31.dangerous circumstances in Calais and Dunkirk, or very work at huge

:39:32. > :39:35.risks of drafting, getting them into centres, bringing many vulnerable

:39:36. > :39:41.children to this country, and it was Britain doing our bit to help some

:39:42. > :39:44.of the most vulnerable and at risk children. We have examples of

:39:45. > :39:52.teenage girls from Eritrea who have been abused, raped, who have been

:39:53. > :39:56.through terrible ordeals, and who are now safe in schools in Britain.

:39:57. > :40:01.We have examples of 12-year-olds from Afghanistan now safe with

:40:02. > :40:07.foster parents instead of living in terrible conditions in northern

:40:08. > :40:13.France. We have teenagers reunited now with family in the UK rather

:40:14. > :40:17.than living in such a unsafe conditions. But it is because that

:40:18. > :40:20.was working, that partnership between Britain and France was

:40:21. > :40:25.working, that it was so shocking to many of us to hear the announcement

:40:26. > :40:31.the government made on the 8th of February that it was not only

:40:32. > :40:37.causing the thyme scheme but it was also ending the fast-track double in