27/02/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.have been problems with that contract in its early days. We

:00:00. > :00:13.believe this situation is improving but there still to be made. Order.

:00:14. > :00:20.Point of order, Mr Speaker. A plethora of points of order. Last

:00:21. > :00:24.Friday after debates on Private Members' Bills, the honourable

:00:25. > :00:32.member for Redcar left the chamber and briefed to the media at large

:00:33. > :00:35.that my speech on the Istanbul convention had stopped her bill from

:00:36. > :00:42.being debated and had in effect blocked it, despite me saying I

:00:43. > :00:47.supported her bill. This has led to my office receiving some widespread

:00:48. > :00:54.and unjustified abuse that they should not be subjected to. The

:00:55. > :01:00.honourable lady for Redcar's bill was the eighth to be considered on

:01:01. > :01:03.Friday. You have a better memory for parliamentary proceedings the mates

:01:04. > :01:10.but perhaps you could tell me the last time the eight Bill was

:01:11. > :01:16.received for debate. I have asked the library to tell me, so far they

:01:17. > :01:22.have gone back 12 years and have not found one example of when the eighth

:01:23. > :01:28.bill for debate was reached. If I had not spoken, we would still not

:01:29. > :01:33.have reached that Bill but by this logic, the honourable lady for Banff

:01:34. > :01:37.and Buchan should be blamed for blocking it by refusing to have her

:01:38. > :01:45.report stayed. The animal cruelty Bill... The honourable gentleman

:01:46. > :01:53.must come to a point of order for me, but he equally must be heard. It

:01:54. > :01:57.could still have been nobbled at the end of the day but must have been

:01:58. > :02:04.blocked by sombre day, I was not in the chamber at the time, so could

:02:05. > :02:07.you confirm that no analysis of the procedure is good believe my speech

:02:08. > :02:11.on the first bill could have prevented the eighth bill from

:02:12. > :02:16.taking place, and I could not have blocked the bill as I was not in the

:02:17. > :02:25.chamber when it was objected to by somebody else? Could to confirm I am

:02:26. > :02:31.straightforward, if I say I support a bill then I support it, and could

:02:32. > :02:37.you finally make it clear that it is irresponsible for members to give

:02:38. > :02:41.the public a false picture of proceedings and dangerous because it

:02:42. > :02:47.encourages some violent abuse on our stuff which can have some dangerous

:02:48. > :02:53.consequences? I am grateful to him for his point of order and advance

:02:54. > :03:00.notice of it. First, nothing disorderly occurred on Friday.

:03:01. > :03:03.Secondly, although I understand the disappointment of the honourable

:03:04. > :03:09.member for Redcar at the failure to progress of her bill, it would be

:03:10. > :03:17.extremely unusual for the eighth bill to make progress. Thirdly, the

:03:18. > :03:21.record shows that when mood, the bill was objected to at the point at

:03:22. > :03:27.which business was interrupted, namely to 30 PM. I have been

:03:28. > :03:32.informed by the honourable gentleman and I do not disputed that he was

:03:33. > :03:40.not present and could not have objected to wood. Let me conclude by

:03:41. > :03:47.saying this in response to the honourable gentleman. He has on a

:03:48. > :03:53.number of occasions explicitly block bills, possibly by shouting objects

:03:54. > :03:57.and certainly I developing his arguments at a leisurely pace on

:03:58. > :04:02.bills which she thinks require his forensic scrutiny, in other words he

:04:03. > :04:10.has by one means or another blocked many bills. He did not block this

:04:11. > :04:14.bill, and as a point of fact, because I believe in the

:04:15. > :04:21.intelligibility of our proceedings and people not running away with the

:04:22. > :04:24.wrong idea, he did not block the honourable member's Bill, and the

:04:25. > :04:31.last point I would make, to the honourable gentleman and to other

:04:32. > :04:34.members, I think it would help if members in all parts of the House

:04:35. > :04:41.would treat each other with courtesy. I don't want to have to

:04:42. > :04:46.arbitrate in matters like this but where I have been asked fact you

:04:47. > :04:52.will questions I have given fact answers. Having heard the point of

:04:53. > :04:58.order and responded, I think it only fair to hear the honourable member

:04:59. > :05:02.for Redcar. I would like to thank the honourable member for advanced

:05:03. > :05:07.foresight of his comments. There is never any excuse to abuse MPs and

:05:08. > :05:12.his staff should not have had to wade through these messages.

:05:13. > :05:19.Feelings around animal cruelty run high but I would like to clarify

:05:20. > :05:23.that in what I've put out to the media I was clear it was the Tory

:05:24. > :05:29.whips to block the bill, and I would like to say to the honourable

:05:30. > :05:33.gentleman, being my first Private Members' Bill and having had

:05:34. > :05:38.positive comments from colleagues on the other side of the House

:05:39. > :05:44.discussing whether it would go through, I still believe there is a

:05:45. > :05:48.matter of record that the honourable gentleman spoke for over 90 minutes

:05:49. > :05:52.on the first bill and everyone in the House should be aware of the

:05:53. > :06:00.consequences of their actions on bills further down the order vapour.

:06:01. > :06:03.I don't think I should adjudicate on that because the honourable

:06:04. > :06:08.gentleman was in order speaking as he did, but he has made his point

:06:09. > :06:13.and she has made hers and some will agree with her. With reference to

:06:14. > :06:19.what she said about the grips of Jacqueline, I was not here but I was

:06:20. > :06:27.here to see the success of the Istanbul convention bill, then I had

:06:28. > :06:33.to go to make own constituency. Whips do tend to object, it is quite

:06:34. > :06:39.commonplace, they think it is one of their functions from time to time,

:06:40. > :06:41.amongst other miscellaneous functions, sometimes subterranean

:06:42. > :06:51.functions but we should not well on that. I should not make such a

:06:52. > :06:55.disobliging opinion on grips. It always based on trust and

:06:56. > :07:02.understanding, I didn't trust them and they didn't understand me. In a

:07:03. > :07:07.written statement last Thursday, ministers announced restrictions on

:07:08. > :07:13.eligibility payment and then at the weekend a minister made, which it

:07:14. > :07:20.isn't the needs of people mental health problems. Have you had any

:07:21. > :07:26.notice of a request from the minister to explain those changes to

:07:27. > :07:31.entitlement to PIP? If there hasn't been such a request, can you advise

:07:32. > :07:37.how we ensure ministers answer questions on what they are doing and

:07:38. > :07:42.why, given the importance of the matter which I know you understand

:07:43. > :07:47.as well as any member. I am grateful to him for putting me in the

:07:48. > :07:51.picture. I understand there was a written statement last Thursday,

:07:52. > :07:58.maybe that doesn't satisfy the palate of the right honourable

:07:59. > :08:06.gentleman or of other members, that is where matters stand at present. I

:08:07. > :08:11.mustn't leave the witness, he is an assiduous member of this House, if

:08:12. > :08:18.he is dissatisfied and wishes to use a parliamentary vehicle to shine

:08:19. > :08:24.further a light on this matter, he must deploy his wits and sagacity to

:08:25. > :08:28.ensure he has that opportunity. I get the impression he feels there

:08:29. > :08:33.has been insufficient attention to the matter. I am not aware of

:08:34. > :08:38.insulting remarks being made and I am sorry if that is the case, I

:08:39. > :08:43.cannot adjudicate on the matter because I am not familiar with them

:08:44. > :08:49.but I hope he will pursue the matter if he wishes to do so through the

:08:50. > :08:56.use of the table office and such mechanisms are as are provided.

:08:57. > :09:02.Further point of order. Would it not be normal convention given that my

:09:03. > :09:09.honourable friend for Mid Norfolk is not present to elucidate his views

:09:10. > :09:14.and they have been impugned by inadvertently, by the right

:09:15. > :09:18.honourable gentleman for his time, would it not be normal that he would

:09:19. > :09:27.have given advance notice given he has mentioned my honourable friend

:09:28. > :09:32.before he must quote seven? As I have been advised and would have

:09:33. > :09:36.been inclined to say, no one in this case, because there has been no

:09:37. > :09:43.imputation of dishonour against an individual. The requirement to

:09:44. > :09:49.notify applies where a particular personal attack is intended to be

:09:50. > :09:56.directed. Where there is a MoD generalised complaint, no prior

:09:57. > :10:03.notification is required. Through a speedy swivelling around by the

:10:04. > :10:08.clerk of the House to advise me, I am fortified by my conviction based

:10:09. > :10:16.on his 30 years experience, but I thank the member for raising his

:10:17. > :10:22.concern. My constituency is due to be expelled from the UK tomorrow,

:10:23. > :10:28.deported to Sri Lanka from her she and her family fled. In three

:10:29. > :10:35.months' time she could complete her degree in engineering at Bangor

:10:36. > :10:40.University and with the expected to get a first. Her head of School

:10:41. > :10:44.describes her as exceptionally diligent and there is a worldwide

:10:45. > :10:50.shortage of graduates in her subject. She followed regulations

:10:51. > :10:54.meticulously but when she was called to Caernarvon police station last

:10:55. > :11:01.week she was arrested and then transferred to your own sweat. I

:11:02. > :11:06.contacted the Immigration Minister to ask him to exercise discretion in

:11:07. > :11:11.her case, which are support in the public with 30,000 people signing a

:11:12. > :11:16.petition, and support from this House. So far the minister has not

:11:17. > :11:23.replied. She is due to leave tomorrow. What advice can you give

:11:24. > :11:27.me so I as a backbencher can hold the Government to account on the

:11:28. > :11:33.scandalous case? For notice of this point of order, he has spoken with

:11:34. > :11:40.his customary eloquence in support of his skin to joint. This is not a

:11:41. > :11:45.point of order for the chair but his remarks on this serious and pressing

:11:46. > :11:53.matter will have been heard on the Treasury bench and I hope they will

:11:54. > :11:59.have been noted. If the honourable gentleman seeks my advice, it would

:12:00. > :12:07.be that he should seek to contact the Immigration Minister, from

:12:08. > :12:13.memory of the honourable member for Scarborough and Whitby, personally

:12:14. > :12:22.today. If the raw no further points of order, we can now to the motion

:12:23. > :12:25.on the supplementary estimate for the Department for environment, Food

:12:26. > :12:32.and Rural Affairs. To move the motion formally... I beg to move.

:12:33. > :12:39.The question is as on the order paper. To initiate the debate I

:12:40. > :12:44.called the chair of the environment, Food and Rural Affairs select

:12:45. > :12:50.committee to the House. It's a pleasure to open this debate on the

:12:51. > :12:56.estimate stay on the future of flood prevention. Flooding is an issue you

:12:57. > :13:03.rarely consider until it happens. When it's dry in the we talk about

:13:04. > :13:10.direct and when it starts to rain we have to deal with flood. In the

:13:11. > :13:14.round we have to deal with both. It can be tempting to disregard flood

:13:15. > :13:20.defences and resilience measures when the weather is dry but I

:13:21. > :13:22.believe and the select committee believes that this would be a grave

:13:23. > :13:33.error. Defences are a vital part of this

:13:34. > :13:36.countries infrastructure. With our experience of more severe storms as

:13:37. > :13:42.climate change continues, flooding is only likely to get worse. We have

:13:43. > :13:47.seen recently in the high tides back came down the eastern side of the

:13:48. > :13:53.country, fortunately they did not cause massive flooding but can in

:13:54. > :13:58.future. I was flooded back in the 1980s and we lost a lot of sheep

:13:59. > :14:03.with huge tidal floods on the west of the country and when these

:14:04. > :14:13.barriers are overcome, you need the right infrastructure. The committee

:14:14. > :14:20.report in November 2016 published its future floods prevention report.

:14:21. > :14:24.The report found flood prevention in the UK is fragmented. It can be

:14:25. > :14:31.inefficient and sometimes ineffective and has let people down.

:14:32. > :14:39.The winter of 2015 and 2016 broke rainfall records and storms Desmond,

:14:40. > :14:44.Eva and Frank disrupted communities in the north, Cumbria and York in

:14:45. > :14:50.particular. Storm Desmond cost of the UK more than ?5 billion and the

:14:51. > :14:56.impact is not just economic. It is also about the individual businesses

:14:57. > :15:00.and residents and all of those who are affected by flooding and

:15:01. > :15:05.sometimes the amount of time it can be to get people back in their homes

:15:06. > :15:11.or businesses up and running again. Many communities live in fear a

:15:12. > :15:16.disaster is just one downpour away. There is no doubt we seem to be

:15:17. > :15:23.getting now huge periods where we have a long period of dry weather

:15:24. > :15:30.and then a huge amount of rain, two or 300 millimetres in 20 or 30 hours

:15:31. > :15:39.and this is... I do not blame the minister or the government for this

:15:40. > :15:43.amount of rainfall coming so quickly! But what we do need to be

:15:44. > :15:47.aware of and ready to try and mitigate some of the worse of the

:15:48. > :15:55.disasters that happen when we have these high levels of rainfall over a

:15:56. > :16:01.quick time. I personally do understand the concerns of many

:16:02. > :16:06.parts of the country when they are underwater for many months and you

:16:07. > :16:09.can only see what happens in the past and I am sure my honourable

:16:10. > :16:14.friend from Taunton will talk about it later, what happened in Somerset

:16:15. > :16:21.where you saw a huge amount of water for three months and more that was

:16:22. > :16:28.devastating for property and the land because it not only stayed

:16:29. > :16:35.there for a long time but created a huge amount of debris, vegetation

:16:36. > :16:41.was lost, the wildlife was lost and so it was a disaster for residents

:16:42. > :16:48.and farmers but also from a conservation point of view. While

:16:49. > :16:53.front line flooding and rescue service work tirelessly to help

:16:54. > :17:00.those affected, our system for managing flood risk can and does

:17:01. > :17:06.fail on occasions. I want to talk about the importance of the

:17:07. > :17:11.recommendations we make in the future flood prevention report. I

:17:12. > :17:15.then want to touch briefly on what the government's response has been

:17:16. > :17:21.and what action Defra has so far taken. I will then conclude by

:17:22. > :17:27.outlining what the committee believes the government must do to

:17:28. > :17:33.prove the situation further. -- improve the situation. Our

:17:34. > :17:38.recommendations, what were they? The Defra committee report made

:17:39. > :17:44.recommendations reducing the risk to 5 million people of flooding, we

:17:45. > :17:51.also looked into the one in 100 years flood and the way we deal with

:17:52. > :17:58.risk because one of the problems is that if you have been flooded now,

:17:59. > :18:02.and you are in a one in 100 years risk of people think another 99

:18:03. > :18:07.years and there will be safe from floods but that is not the case. It

:18:08. > :18:16.is a case if you are in a high flood risk area, you remain in that area

:18:17. > :18:20.until better defences are created or there is resilience measures put in

:18:21. > :18:30.place but you will always remain in a pretty high risk area. I give way.

:18:31. > :18:35.I thank him and he brings back many memories of these terrible floods

:18:36. > :18:38.but would he agree communication is important in the flooding case, one

:18:39. > :18:41.thing that came from the Select Committee report was we should not

:18:42. > :18:46.use this terminology any more calling things a 100 year flooding

:18:47. > :18:50.incident, we should have a different way of warning people about how

:18:51. > :18:55.serious floods are without these years attached to them because it is

:18:56. > :19:01.misleading. I thank her very much for the intervention and she is

:19:02. > :19:05.right and what the evidence we took and saw from individuals that talk

:19:06. > :19:11.to us was where the communities get together and where they warn each

:19:12. > :19:14.other what is happening, it really does help because the environment

:19:15. > :19:21.agency and others can give the warnings and there are the fire

:19:22. > :19:26.brigade and the environment agency and local authority staff help but

:19:27. > :19:30.in the end it is the communities themselves where they have been

:19:31. > :19:38.flooded, they have built up a resilience and that does help in

:19:39. > :19:43.warning for the future. I give way. Would you join with me in the paid

:19:44. > :19:53.tribute to flood wardens who in many towns like my constituency is

:19:54. > :19:57.waiting for three schemes this year. All the work of volunteers do is so

:19:58. > :20:05.important to the response when floodwaters rise. I thank him very

:20:06. > :20:11.much for his intervention because he is right. Yes, the local authorities

:20:12. > :20:17.and the environment agency, the drainage board but it is the local

:20:18. > :20:22.people when they come together, they know exactly what is happening on

:20:23. > :20:25.the ground, they know they can react quickly and if you have flood

:20:26. > :20:31.wardens then you can deal with it quickly. In Axminster I had an

:20:32. > :20:36.incident where a shopping trolley went into a culvert, the whole place

:20:37. > :20:47.flooded, bungalows and flooded and if we had someone there that could

:20:48. > :20:51.serve taken out the shopping trolley locally, that flood would have been

:20:52. > :20:58.stopped. This is what we are learning all the time. It makes sure

:20:59. > :21:02.the resources go further as well. One of the most important

:21:03. > :21:06.recommendations we must take more of our holistic approach, it sounds

:21:07. > :21:10.obvious but we need to work with nature rather than against it. If we

:21:11. > :21:20.slow the flow of the water by using natural remedies like planting trees

:21:21. > :21:27.we will see more and better flood prevention. We must allow water to

:21:28. > :21:32.naturally flood fields on a natural flood plain instead of urban areas,

:21:33. > :21:39.this would be a much cheaper and more cost-effective way of

:21:40. > :21:48.preventing floods. I will give way. I thank him for giving way. Does he

:21:49. > :21:52.agree that as we look towards how we spend farming subsidies in the wake

:21:53. > :21:55.of Brexit that we ought to look at them to address the issues he

:21:56. > :21:59.mentioned perhaps allowing farmers to allow the fields to flood

:22:00. > :22:06.sometimes as a form of natural flood defence. I think she must have X-ray

:22:07. > :22:13.site because my next paragraph of my notes here very much talks about how

:22:14. > :22:17.we deal with farming and farmers and she is right and we have an

:22:18. > :22:22.opportunity now when we do not have to follow the common agricultural

:22:23. > :22:26.policy to have something that is cost-effective to allow farmers to

:22:27. > :22:31.store water when they are able to store it and it has to be one of

:22:32. > :22:37.these systems where if farmers have to do is store water for a short

:22:38. > :22:41.period and it is on grassland, it will have little effect on their

:22:42. > :22:47.crop and profitability but if they store it on arable land and for a

:22:48. > :22:53.long period, they need greater compensation so in some respects we

:22:54. > :23:00.need to look in detail at how we do this and we will have that

:23:01. > :23:04.opportunity. I give way. I'm grateful. Is he familiar with the

:23:05. > :23:10.practice by some local authorities diverted water from roads onto

:23:11. > :23:16.farmers fields without permission that's washing away topsoil of the

:23:17. > :23:24.sortie is about to touch on in his and introducing into sensitive

:23:25. > :23:30.sites? He makes an important point because if you are going to allow

:23:31. > :23:36.water to go out on land to save a town or village from flooding, then

:23:37. > :23:39.the farmer needs the land owner needs doubt about it, needs to

:23:40. > :23:46.manage it properly, and it does have to be done in agreement so some

:23:47. > :23:49.times these things are done naturally in exceptional

:23:50. > :23:54.circumstances but once done, there needs to be a plan if they need to

:23:55. > :24:00.be done again in future. He raises a good point. In the end, agricultural

:24:01. > :24:04.land can be useful for storing water but you must remember it is also

:24:05. > :24:09.used the growing crops and keeping stock and therefore you have to be

:24:10. > :24:13.sure the farmer can farm that land as well as manage it for water and

:24:14. > :24:20.that's why we need to deal with this by agreement. We had bad severe

:24:21. > :24:25.flooding in the Ribble Valley and drank and share in 2015, he mentions

:24:26. > :24:30.agricultural land on Friday with Woodland Trust and revocable trust I

:24:31. > :24:35.planted trees on the river bank, does he agree with me that we need

:24:36. > :24:42.to look again at the amount of trees being planted and the usefulness of

:24:43. > :24:45.planting trees in stopping soil erosion and indeed holding a lot of

:24:46. > :24:51.the water that otherwise goes to ground? He makes a very good point

:24:52. > :24:55.because it is not just about planting trees, it is where we plant

:24:56. > :25:02.the trees. Every plant them along the field or banks and rivers we can

:25:03. > :25:06.hold back the water and hold back the soil because often it is the

:25:07. > :25:10.soil and debris washed from the field which contributes to the

:25:11. > :25:14.flood. It is not just the number of trees, it is making sure we are

:25:15. > :25:19.smart in where we plant them and the way we plant them because when we

:25:20. > :25:24.visited the North of England, when the Forestry Commission were

:25:25. > :25:29.planting trees, they turned soil up and put it into a furrow and planted

:25:30. > :25:34.a tree on the top of the furrow, the trouble is you then have two gullies

:25:35. > :25:40.either side which allows the water to run down quickly if the trees are

:25:41. > :25:44.planted on a slope so over the years there are many things we can do but

:25:45. > :25:48.he makes a good point, planting trees, holding the soil back and

:25:49. > :25:52.holding the water back for long enough for the major flood to go

:25:53. > :26:03.through, that is what much of the work was done. I thank him for

:26:04. > :26:07.giving way. I cannot let the moment pass not to intervene, soil is such

:26:08. > :26:12.an important part of the ecosystem and would he agree we lose it in

:26:13. > :26:20.flood water at our peril because that is the lifeblood we use to grow

:26:21. > :26:23.the crops. Also she will be aware many fields only have so much

:26:24. > :26:28.topsoil on them and it is the topsoil that is fertile and that you

:26:29. > :26:33.grow your crop in the so if you lose the topsoil into the streams and

:26:34. > :26:39.rivers, you have lost a lot of your fertile soil on your field so I

:26:40. > :26:45.think most farmers when presented with a plan to save their soil and

:26:46. > :26:50.the way they manage their fields can see a big advantage but we need to

:26:51. > :26:54.work together with the farming community rather than sometimes

:26:55. > :26:57.imposing our will upon them. If we can persuade them there are good

:26:58. > :27:05.reasons for managing soil in a different way then perhaps we can

:27:06. > :27:11.get further with it and use carrots and not sticks! I am sure the

:27:12. > :27:17.minister has many carrots to offer today and it will be interesting to

:27:18. > :27:23.see when she sums up. However, we need to take a closer look at

:27:24. > :27:28.developments in built-up areas affected by flood risk. I have said

:27:29. > :27:36.this before, it is not only... Naturally we have laws we hope will

:27:37. > :27:39.restrict most building in flood plains and sometimes it is breached

:27:40. > :27:45.but on the whole it is not. But there is a need in my view, most

:27:46. > :27:50.areas that are flooded very little of that water actually that floods

:27:51. > :27:56.those areas lands on that area that is flooding. It usually comes from

:27:57. > :28:01.above and therefore if you are building in the future, we need to

:28:02. > :28:05.actually look at not stopping the building but is looking if you are

:28:06. > :28:09.building a housing development, several hundred houses or a

:28:10. > :28:14.thousand, then you can look to capture the run-off of water and

:28:15. > :28:22.everything that comes from that estate including the roads and

:28:23. > :28:27.capture that in ponds and underneath reservoirs and tanks underneath the

:28:28. > :28:34.homes and you can build properly Brazilian measures to make sure the

:28:35. > :28:40.situation... -- resilience measures. And make the situation better rather

:28:41. > :28:44.than worse. We can develop but we do not always given of consideration

:28:45. > :28:50.further downstream as what is to happen when we can build.

:28:51. > :28:57.There is a lot of house building going on where part of the condition

:28:58. > :29:02.was to tank to go in prior to the building of the houses that they

:29:03. > :29:06.seem to have started building and occupying the houses before they

:29:07. > :29:12.have that tanks. Does he agree that as part of planning conditions

:29:13. > :29:19.developers need to abide by rules set out local authorities because of

:29:20. > :29:24.the imagery this can cause? He makes a good point again because sometimes

:29:25. > :29:29.with planning conditions, they flout them or they are not enforced

:29:30. > :29:34.properly and then they will say due to the economic situation we cannot

:29:35. > :29:39.put in these measures. We want to make sure these are in place and

:29:40. > :29:44.houses should not be built unless they are in place and that is key. I

:29:45. > :29:51.know the Defra Minister will pass that on because this is a planning

:29:52. > :29:56.matter but if we're going to plan for future development, we need to

:29:57. > :30:01.plan it properly because I don't think any of us are against

:30:02. > :30:07.development but we need the right development, and if we can make a

:30:08. > :30:10.feature of this, we could have leisure facilities as well as the

:30:11. > :30:17.building, so there is a planning game. The recommendation in our

:30:18. > :30:23.report includes a need for a new governor 's model to deal with

:30:24. > :30:30.flooding. As part of our inquiry the committee visited the Netherlands to

:30:31. > :30:36.see how they had managed flooding. 25% of land is below sea level, half

:30:37. > :30:42.of the population live in flood prone areas so they know a lot about

:30:43. > :30:47.flooding. The threat of flooding and to water management being

:30:48. > :30:55.administered hand in hand as early as the 13th century. As the threat

:30:56. > :31:00.in the UK grows, we need to borrow ideas from the Dutch and mirror

:31:01. > :31:06.their local focus on how they deal locally and nationally with floods.

:31:07. > :31:09.We need only look at the fence of this country that were drained by

:31:10. > :31:14.Dutch engineers and the part of Somerset where I still have my farm

:31:15. > :31:21.was also drained by Dutch engineers, so they do know exactly how to deal

:31:22. > :31:31.with water because if they don't, they don't have a contrary. I

:31:32. > :31:36.certainly will. Does he share my disappointment that many of the

:31:37. > :31:41.things talked about in this report were being discussed in this House a

:31:42. > :31:47.dozen years ago and have still not been implemented, for example of the

:31:48. > :31:54.building back better recommendation of paragraphs 60? I disgusted with

:31:55. > :32:01.the Association of British insurers in 2006. During that time the Labour

:32:02. > :32:07.and coalition government cut spending on flood defences. The

:32:08. > :32:12.honourable gentleman makes a good point because one of the points we

:32:13. > :32:20.tried to make is not necessarily a party political one. If you look at

:32:21. > :32:24.the last Labour government, the spending on flooding went down into

:32:25. > :32:30.right times and up in wet times and the same happened with the coalition

:32:31. > :32:35.and we can argue today about the figures but they very much follow

:32:36. > :32:40.the same pattern and I think that is what we are trying to do with this

:32:41. > :32:43.report is put in the proper resilience measures and learn from

:32:44. > :32:55.what's happening, so I'd take his point. We therefore talk about the

:32:56. > :33:01.Dutch system, the ADF would be to set up a regional flood and coastal

:33:02. > :33:05.waters that then moves down to local authorities, to local drainage

:33:06. > :33:11.boards where the exist and landowners and businesses to have a

:33:12. > :33:17.broad catchment races. Government should undertake to overhaul flood

:33:18. > :33:19.risk management, including a new English rivers and coastal

:33:20. > :33:25.authorities accountable for delivering flood protection, because

:33:26. > :33:30.again in the Netherlands they have a flood commissioner who goes to the

:33:31. > :33:35.Dutch parliament, is answerable to Parliament and also at a local

:33:36. > :33:40.level, and it gives a real focus. We may not have to go through to the

:33:41. > :33:46.full management of the system of the Dutch but we could learn many things

:33:47. > :33:51.from it, even if we did that through the Environment Agency and others

:33:52. > :33:58.altering how that runs and how it is more answerable to Parliament and to

:33:59. > :34:03.the local authorities and drainage boards and landowners because I am

:34:04. > :34:08.convinced until we get a system that works from the top and then from the

:34:09. > :34:14.bottom up as well, we won't make the best use of our resources because

:34:15. > :34:18.resources will always be pressed. The Commissioner could also hold

:34:19. > :34:24.those carrying out flood prevention works to recount because you have to

:34:25. > :34:31.get the best value for money. I will give way. He will be aware because

:34:32. > :34:37.his report clearly says that firefighters provide the first line

:34:38. > :34:44.service and a vital service to flooded areas. Does she agree with

:34:45. > :34:49.me and could he give a report on how further the Government is going to

:34:50. > :34:53.getting this to be a statutory duty of the Fire Service, something that

:34:54. > :34:59.has been asked for it through the last 12 years, why can we not do

:35:00. > :35:04.this? Scotland and Northern Ireland have done it and Wales are about to

:35:05. > :35:11.do it. The honourable lady from Vauxhall makes a good point and the

:35:12. > :35:18.gentleman behind her from popular will be making some good points as

:35:19. > :35:24.far as the Fire Service is concerned. We took evidence from the

:35:25. > :35:29.Fire Service and it is not always recognised the work and the amount

:35:30. > :35:36.of time the Fire Service contribute to floods and I think the

:35:37. > :35:41.Environment Agency have large pumps that can move huge volumes of water

:35:42. > :35:47.short distances at the fire brigade have all those puns and can pump out

:35:48. > :35:51.properties and deal with it on the ground, and it is not recognised

:35:52. > :35:57.enough within the system and there is work to be done there and it will

:35:58. > :36:06.be interesting to see the point made and the reply from the minister.

:36:07. > :36:10.Final point on management is that by overhauling the way we manage the

:36:11. > :36:16.whole system we can go a long way to minimise them devastating toll and

:36:17. > :36:24.affect on local areas and local people. I now move on to the

:36:25. > :36:30.Government's response to our report. Unfortunately the response which was

:36:31. > :36:37.published last month was, in my view, a little disappointing. We

:36:38. > :36:44.found the response to be not of two standard as it addressed our key

:36:45. > :36:49.recommendations in only a cursory way. We then asked for more

:36:50. > :36:56.information from ministers in time for this debate and in fairness the

:36:57. > :37:06.minister today wrote to that committee on February 16. We welcome

:37:07. > :37:14.her commitment to record and report from 2018 to 2019 onwards on how

:37:15. > :37:20.many schemes will be included in the natural flood management and that

:37:21. > :37:25.will be very important because I believe we need to make sure that

:37:26. > :37:33.more natural flood management is carried out. The minister, we

:37:34. > :37:39.welcome this step and your commitment to refresh the National

:37:40. > :37:42.Flood and coastal erosion management strategy for England and we hope it

:37:43. > :37:49.will reflect many of the findings of our inquiry. The actions we would

:37:50. > :37:56.like to see in our report, to be fair to the Government Defra has

:37:57. > :38:00.made progress on some of the issues raised including catchment scale and

:38:01. > :38:06.approaches, flood management being embedded more firmly in plans, local

:38:07. > :38:12.partnerships have also made progress in coordinating action in river

:38:13. > :38:18.basins and I think the Government also believes this, we need to make

:38:19. > :38:24.sure that not all flood areas fit neatly into local authority

:38:25. > :38:30.boundaries, you need a whole catchment area that you bring in to

:38:31. > :38:35.hold the water. Some areas you will need to speed up the water to get it

:38:36. > :38:40.out to sea, other areas you will have to slow it down and we will

:38:41. > :38:49.need to put in leaking dams and to hold that water in some areas, some

:38:50. > :38:52.areas will need to be dredged or silted, whatever the language you

:38:53. > :38:59.want to use in order to get the water flowing more quickly. He is

:39:00. > :39:03.making an impassioned speech. Which he recognised the work of the

:39:04. > :39:08.Environment Agency along the Medway River and the work they have done in

:39:09. > :39:14.bringing stakeholders together so we have a continuous theme of progress

:39:15. > :39:21.rather than areas were one area is fixed only to flood an area

:39:22. > :39:25.downstream? I welcome the work of the Environment Agency in Medway,

:39:26. > :39:31.where Walker can move quite quickly so if you're not careful it will

:39:32. > :39:36.move too quickly and flood further downstream, and that will be

:39:37. > :39:39.essential as we do our work and I think the one thing we sort through

:39:40. > :39:45.the whole report is that one size does not fit all because some areas

:39:46. > :39:51.need the water slowed down, other areas need it speeded up and we have

:39:52. > :39:57.to deal with it catchment area by catchment area, and what will be

:39:58. > :40:02.fascinating now is that we are moving into more of a drought

:40:03. > :40:08.situation before too long and will be looking about how we use our

:40:09. > :40:11.rivers to move the water around, because for the first two years I

:40:12. > :40:17.was in this House, the select committee talked about nothing but

:40:18. > :40:26.drought and only when it started raining in 2012 and didn't stop did

:40:27. > :40:31.we think much about flood. Funding for flood risk management,

:40:32. > :40:37.government has committed to a six-year programme with a capital

:40:38. > :40:44.probe -- budget of 2.5 billion. While we welcome this, it is

:40:45. > :40:50.unlikely to deliver sufficient protection in future decades. By the

:40:51. > :40:55.end of this year the Government must publish its 25 year ambition for

:40:56. > :41:01.flood risk reduction and the costs of securing this against climate

:41:02. > :41:07.change scenarios. The Government rejected this recommendation. The

:41:08. > :41:14.public needs to know how communities will be affected and plans need to

:41:15. > :41:18.be put in place to do with flood risk, not just from fresh water that

:41:19. > :41:24.falls in the wake of rain will also coastal flooding. We initially

:41:25. > :41:29.recommended that catchment scale measures be adopted on a wider

:41:30. > :41:37.scale, Defra is doing more to promote these approaches, trying

:41:38. > :41:43.natural flood measurement measures like the restoring of leaky dams and

:41:44. > :41:48.tree planting. We welcome this and the additional funding of 15 million

:41:49. > :41:54.in the Autumn Statement, but we need more detail on how much of the 2.5

:41:55. > :41:59.billion capital programme for flood management will use natural flood

:42:00. > :42:05.management. Ministers' commitment to include this in their report is

:42:06. > :42:10.therefore welcome but we would welcome more information on how you

:42:11. > :42:16.plan to make sure every catchment area uses natural flood management

:42:17. > :42:21.to maximise the extent appropriate to that river basin because there is

:42:22. > :42:28.no doubt, going back to the Netherlands, we saw very much that

:42:29. > :42:32.they meandered some rivers, they are restoring more water in the rivers

:42:33. > :42:39.as well as farmland, and I therefore look forward to the debate and

:42:40. > :42:44.members' contributions and to the minister summing up at the end.

:42:45. > :42:50.Before I call Mary Cray to respond to the motion, there are a lot of

:42:51. > :42:55.people in the next debate, twice the number as this debate, so I suggest

:42:56. > :43:00.an informal speaking limit of six minutes. We will see how we get on

:43:01. > :43:03.that otherwise there are twice the number of speakers in the next

:43:04. > :43:10.debate, so they get even more squeezed.

:43:11. > :43:19.I rise to introduce the environment committee who have done a report in

:43:20. > :43:22.flooding and we found a lack of long-term strategic planning for

:43:23. > :43:26.flood risk, we found the government had not been doing enough to ensure

:43:27. > :43:32.the resilience of nationally significant infrastructure and

:43:33. > :43:36.crucially a stop, start approach to flood defence funding and a lack of

:43:37. > :43:40.support for local councils. We called on government to take a

:43:41. > :43:44.proactive approach to funding, to make companies operating keep

:43:45. > :43:49.digital energy and transport infrastructure report on their

:43:50. > :43:52.preparedness levels for flooding and the resilience targets and we call

:43:53. > :43:59.for more support for councils to prepare plans to deal with flooding

:44:00. > :44:04.and to publish a 25 year plan for flooding alongside the long-awaited

:44:05. > :44:11.and much delayed 25 year plan for the environment. We are still

:44:12. > :44:14.waiting. Before I move on, I want to say a few words about climate

:44:15. > :44:19.change. Flooding is the greatest risk our country faces from climate

:44:20. > :44:23.change and the risks are all that is significant as honourable members

:44:24. > :44:28.have said and will increase as a result of climate change. If global

:44:29. > :44:35.temperatures are kept below 2 degrees, the UK faces a rising

:44:36. > :44:40.threat from surface water in those intense rainfall patterns, and

:44:41. > :44:44.coastal erosion and tidal surges and an alluvial flooding and cities like

:44:45. > :44:48.Harle, it is important to stress face a threat from all three

:44:49. > :44:54.sources, there are some aerials that are more vulnerable than others. The

:44:55. > :44:58.forecasts for sea level rises very between 50 and 100 centimetres by

:44:59. > :45:05.the end of the century making tidal surges bigger, and we saw how

:45:06. > :45:10.exposed the North Sea coast is and East of England coast, in January

:45:11. > :45:14.the coastal town of Jay Wick in Essex which suffered so previously

:45:15. > :45:20.in the 1950s was evacuated by the army it is good to see there is a

:45:21. > :45:25.faster response time from government in these very fast moving

:45:26. > :45:32.life-and-death situations but we need to be able to scale back up in

:45:33. > :45:37.the event that the North Sea surge happens simultaneously along the

:45:38. > :45:41.whole of the eastern coast. Various predictions say rainfall could be 20

:45:42. > :45:47.to 30% higher over the next ten years, according to the forecasts

:45:48. > :45:51.and the government flood resilience review. So planning for our

:45:52. > :45:56.children, we need to think about the next ten years. There are risks to

:45:57. > :46:00.all nations and all sectors of the economy and in the latest risk

:46:01. > :46:06.assessment, the committee said current levels of adaptation are

:46:07. > :46:11.projected to be insignificant to avoid, insufficient, sorry, to avoid

:46:12. > :46:15.coastal erosion risks so we are not yet doing what we need to do to

:46:16. > :46:24.match the scale of the risk. I will give way. I hope she shares my

:46:25. > :46:28.disappointment at the slow rate of progress, the adaptation measures in

:46:29. > :46:32.the climate change act are a direct result of a private members bill I

:46:33. > :46:39.introduced about ten years ago on this issue and we have made almost

:46:40. > :46:43.no progress. There has been some progress but we need to move much

:46:44. > :46:48.further and faster as the scale and nature of the risk becomes more

:46:49. > :46:53.apparent and as the science develops in this area and my concern is that

:46:54. > :47:00.government policy is not changing fast enough to meet the change in

:47:01. > :47:06.the scientific forecasts. Does she share my concern that when the

:47:07. > :47:10.floods hit Cumbria and other areas in Christmas 2015, the government

:47:11. > :47:13.was using out of date modelling to predict, they were not using the

:47:14. > :47:21.most up-to-date modelling and that is the most important thing so we

:47:22. > :47:29.can try to predict what will come next? She is absolutely right. Her

:47:30. > :47:34.expertise on the committee has been invaluable. What the committee is

:47:35. > :47:39.saying is increased flood risk will affect property values, business

:47:40. > :47:46.revenues and threatens the viability is of some communities. If we look

:47:47. > :47:51.at a worse scenario, from the risk assessment, if global temperatures

:47:52. > :47:57.rise by 4 degrees, the number of UK households at significant risk of

:47:58. > :48:04.flooding will double from 860,000 to 1.9 million in 2050. These are stark

:48:05. > :48:11.and concerning figures. I know from my constituency the misery flooding

:48:12. > :48:19.can bring, the 2007 floods, we had a thousand homes were flooded in

:48:20. > :48:21.Wakefield and after that, my friend the Northampton, Wolverhampton, said

:48:22. > :48:27.successive governments cut funding and that was a year when funding was

:48:28. > :48:31.cut and labour cut it but they cut the flood defence programme and I

:48:32. > :48:37.lobbied hard to get the money put back in, we got ?15 million for

:48:38. > :48:40.cities, the defences were completed in 2012 and thanks to those

:48:41. > :48:46.differences grow Wakefield escaped the worst of the 2015 storms which

:48:47. > :48:52.is important. But nationally we have had a roller-coaster approach to

:48:53. > :48:59.funding, in the last Parliament flood funding was initially cut by

:49:00. > :49:05.27% and then it was put back after the 2013 floods and we know from the

:49:06. > :49:11.review flood defences which was eventually published by my committee

:49:12. > :49:16.that these government cuts resulted in a decline in the condition of

:49:17. > :49:21.critical flood defences so that review showed the proportion of key

:49:22. > :49:30.flood defence assets that met the required condition fell from 99

:49:31. > :49:37.cents in 2011 and 12 to 94% in 2013 so in those three years, you had a

:49:38. > :49:43.pretty large decline in mission critical flood defence assets that

:49:44. > :49:46.were all ready built -- 99%. We believe it is an unacceptable risk

:49:47. > :49:51.for communities that think they have defences can sleep easy in their

:49:52. > :49:57.beds when it is raining so the more flood defences the government causes

:49:58. > :50:01.to be built, the more maintenance budget needs to increase in line

:50:02. > :50:07.with that, you cannot keep spending more on capital and cutting the

:50:08. > :50:10.revenue budgets. So, the failure of the barrier in York shows what

:50:11. > :50:15.happens when critical flood assets fail, it was built on the cheap in

:50:16. > :50:19.the 1980s, not build the correct height with only two mechanisms so

:50:20. > :50:25.when one mechanism, the electrics were overtopped and water got in,

:50:26. > :50:31.they were left, the local flood engineers were left with no choice

:50:32. > :50:36.but to raise the barrier with little notice and to flood hundreds of

:50:37. > :50:39.homes in the city and my honourable friend for York will have a great

:50:40. > :50:42.deal to say on that afterwards. The government is talking about spending

:50:43. > :50:46.more on flood defences and one mechanism they are using is the

:50:47. > :50:52.partnership funding but my committee looked into the sources of the

:50:53. > :50:59.partnership funding and said actually 85% is coming from public

:51:00. > :51:03.sector bodies so we are robbing Peter, government cuts centrally and

:51:04. > :51:08.then we go to hard-pressed council budgets who have seen their budgets

:51:09. > :51:12.for and say do you fancy stumping up for some flood defence assets for

:51:13. > :51:19.your town or city and leaving them with no choice but to say yes. 15%

:51:20. > :51:22.is coming from the private sector and it is not an equal playing field

:51:23. > :51:32.because any private sector company that gives government money get tax

:51:33. > :51:37.relief on that so-called donation. The government announces at the

:51:38. > :51:43.Spending Review the amount they will spend and we had that in 2015, the

:51:44. > :51:50.government said two point, 2.5 million and then we have the floods,

:51:51. > :51:55.storm Desmond and Frank and the government says it isn't adequate,

:51:56. > :52:00.we will give you an extra 700 million. Stop, start. Cut when it is

:52:01. > :52:08.dry, spend when it rains. And then the member for Penrith and Defra

:52:09. > :52:11.minister said the extra 700 million would be spent according to a

:52:12. > :52:25.political calculation. I will give way. We have increased spending, we

:52:26. > :52:30.have not cut anything. The coalition budget in 2010, she was a new member

:52:31. > :52:37.of Parliament then, cut the flood defence budget by 27%. And of course

:52:38. > :52:43.the way she is raising the money, the extra ?700 million announced in

:52:44. > :52:48.the budget in March 2016 came from a staff tax so the money comes from an

:52:49. > :52:54.increase in insurance premium tax and that raises ?200 million a year

:52:55. > :52:59.on every insurance policy in the country, car drivers pay for flood

:53:00. > :53:04.defences, people who own pets pay for flood defences and we can argue

:53:05. > :53:10.whether that is the most transparent way of raising money for flood

:53:11. > :53:16.infrastructure. I want to talk about the committees report and the

:53:17. > :53:20.criticisms on infrastructure resilience, we saw before Christmas

:53:21. > :53:28.Storm Angus causing landslips and ballast water ways and on railway

:53:29. > :53:35.lines in Devon and Scotland. As storms always do, bringing travel

:53:36. > :53:40.disruption and last winters floods in Leeds showed key energy, digital

:53:41. > :53:45.and transport infrastructure and the bridge being washed away in

:53:46. > :53:49.Tadcaster only just reopened over a year after the floods. It is not

:53:50. > :53:58.well protected and roads and railways going down has a huge

:53:59. > :54:03.impact on the economics of the area. The governments own national flood

:54:04. > :54:07.resilience review found 500 sites with nationally significant

:54:08. > :54:13.infrastructure vulnerable to flooding. And in Yorkshire in the

:54:14. > :54:17.winter floods of 2015 nine electricity substations and 110

:54:18. > :54:21.water pumping stations were affected by flooding and keeping the water

:54:22. > :54:26.supply going and sewage under control is absolutely vital bust up

:54:27. > :54:34.my committee recommended that the government mandate energy companies

:54:35. > :54:38.and water companies to meet a one in 200 year flood resilience target for

:54:39. > :54:41.brisk and I'm afraid the government response was disappointing saying we

:54:42. > :54:47.do not think that is the best way of doing it but it does not say what is

:54:48. > :54:51.the best way. I'm interested to hear, we cannot have tumbleweed as a

:54:52. > :54:56.strategy listing to the wind and hoping it is not coming our way. We

:54:57. > :55:01.think the minimum standards for energy company transport

:55:02. > :55:05.infrastructure companies and digital telecommunications companies is

:55:06. > :55:12.vital, let's not forget in Leeds the railway lines were flooded out of

:55:13. > :55:16.Leeds, the police radios went down so West Yorkshire Police were unable

:55:17. > :55:22.to work out where to send their emergency response vehicles in the

:55:23. > :55:29.middle of a civil emergency and this is simply not good enough and if

:55:30. > :55:34.that happens on Boxing Day, on a normal working day we would have had

:55:35. > :55:39.tens of thousands of people stranded in the city centre of Leeds with

:55:40. > :55:43.nowhere to spend the night and a bigger civil emergency response. We

:55:44. > :55:47.had the long-awaited national flood resilience review published in

:55:48. > :55:53.September, it was good to hear some of the things happening, the mobile

:55:54. > :55:59.flood defences but we think flood defences is a sticking plaster

:56:00. > :56:04.solution, but they fail in one third of the time they use so they will

:56:05. > :56:08.only work two times out of three and they did not say anything about the

:56:09. > :56:13.risk from heavy rainfall overwhelming sewers. No one likes to

:56:14. > :56:18.talk about sewage though some people might think there is a lot of it

:56:19. > :56:26.goes on in his place! But not in this current debate. We need this

:56:27. > :56:32.comprehensive long-term strategy to properly deal with the really

:56:33. > :56:37.granular issues around flood risk. None more important than the way

:56:38. > :56:43.local authorities have to deal with flood planning and prevention. 30%

:56:44. > :56:47.of local authorities in September 2016 simply did not have the

:56:48. > :56:52.completed plan flood risk and a quarter of lead authorities did not

:56:53. > :56:58.have a strategy. How are we as the public and members of this placement

:56:59. > :57:02.to scrutinise whether the plans are adequate and the response is

:57:03. > :57:07.adequate if they simply do not exist? We also know the environment

:57:08. > :57:10.agency provides advice to local councils about where new housing

:57:11. > :57:17.developments should be built to minimise flood risk and we heard

:57:18. > :57:22.usually the advice is followed but in 2013 almost 10,000 homes were

:57:23. > :57:27.built in high flood risk areas and the extent to which the environment

:57:28. > :57:31.agency's advice on where or whether to build is systematically

:57:32. > :57:34.monitored, reported followed up to the system is simply not known and

:57:35. > :57:42.there was nothing wrong with building new homes, Southwark and

:57:43. > :57:45.this place is at risk of blood but people are still building new homes

:57:46. > :57:49.in London because there is the Thames Barrier. There was nothing

:57:50. > :57:54.wrong with building in flood risk areas if they are protected. This is

:57:55. > :58:01.not systematically monitored. We want more help going from Defra and

:58:02. > :58:06.DCLG to help councils adopt those local flood plans and then follow

:58:07. > :58:15.the map. In the wake of the winter storms in 2015, the then Prime

:58:16. > :58:18.minister appointed flood envoys to coordinate a response, the member

:58:19. > :58:19.for Penrith and The Border in Cumbria and the Mentha Scarborough

:58:20. > :58:31.and Whitby Yorkshire. There was some question raised about

:58:32. > :58:37.whether these posts transferred with the new government and the new Prime

:58:38. > :58:40.Minister. I wrote to the Secretary of State for Defra injure light, she

:58:41. > :58:46.responded in September at saying she was thinking about it and in January

:58:47. > :58:52.we got a reply saying they were still in post. It should not take

:58:53. > :58:57.six months to reply to a committee chair to let us know whether in the

:58:58. > :59:03.event of a flood these two ministers are still coordinating the response.

:59:04. > :59:09.What would have happened there flooding had taken place? This is

:59:10. > :59:17.not acceptable. On insurance, last winced's devastating cost across the

:59:18. > :59:24.whole economy, Mike committee visited Leeds we had particular

:59:25. > :59:29.access around access to insurance. We had people coming from Calderdale

:59:30. > :59:35.were up to 80% of businesses were affected by the flooding, Osman

:59:36. > :59:46.annual basis by a fluvial flooding and surface flooding. The floods

:59:47. > :59:54.cost SMEs over ?40 million. The floods in Leeds were the worst since

:59:55. > :59:59.1866 and Leeds University told Mike committee that 60% of local

:00:00. > :00:06.businesses had been unable to obtain a quotation for insurance since last

:00:07. > :00:13.winced's floods. We heard one business whose access had risen from

:00:14. > :00:22.?1000 to 20 by -- 250,000 after the floods. Another business's premium

:00:23. > :00:29.had risen, the excess increased 40% to ?10,000 but they would only get

:00:30. > :00:35.that insurance if they stumped up ?400,000 to build new flood

:00:36. > :00:40.defences. When the committee on climate change says the economic

:00:41. > :00:44.viability of some areas is being threatened, the way incher runs

:00:45. > :00:49.companies are failing to rise to this risk and stamped with

:00:50. > :00:53.communities is putting hold parts of our country at risk of becoming

:00:54. > :01:00.economically unviable, so I will give way. Thank you, and I wonder if

:01:01. > :01:06.she has looked at the other report we are discussing and the assertion

:01:07. > :01:10.with another that there is not market failure when it comes to

:01:11. > :01:15.providing affordable insurance flood risk businesses. If these excesses

:01:16. > :01:24.are not flood -- market failure, I wonder what is. She is right, there

:01:25. > :01:29.is market failure, businesses are advised to shop around, there are

:01:30. > :01:37.community schemes which tried to use market power to purchase schemes

:01:38. > :01:42.effectively, and one of those is running in Calder Valley, but it

:01:43. > :01:47.shouldn't have to come to this. We want to see insurance company

:01:48. > :01:53.standing alongside this. They lobbied long and hard to mitigate

:01:54. > :02:01.their risk from climate change and the Government set up a scheme,

:02:02. > :02:04.another insurance tax on contents premiums and buildings premiums, so

:02:05. > :02:09.every homeowner in the country is stumping up for that so insurers

:02:10. > :02:14.don't have to pay bed and transferred that risk to the

:02:15. > :02:20.Government. I think they need to cut businesses some slack and rise to

:02:21. > :02:25.these challenges. I have had a few businesses head, one in particular

:02:26. > :02:30.which is relatively small yet because it has been hectic couple of

:02:31. > :02:36.times by flooding the insurance premium is now way into the

:02:37. > :02:39.thousands, it makes it more complicated because they live on the

:02:40. > :02:49.same premise as where the business is. Surely where the flood really

:02:50. > :02:55.kicks in to protect businesses, it should protect premises and if it is

:02:56. > :03:02.suitable to pool risks for houses, it should be the same for

:03:03. > :03:05.businesses. It is important we don't end up with every taxpayer

:03:06. > :03:11.subsidising the private sector but I think they government needs to look

:03:12. > :03:15.at innovative mechanisms which do not place another burden on the

:03:16. > :03:21.already hard-pressed householder or a car driver who have seen their

:03:22. > :03:26.insurance premiums go up as a result of mitigating this risk, so to

:03:27. > :03:30.conclude, failing to adequately fund flood defences is playing Russian

:03:31. > :03:37.roulette with people's homes and businesses. I talked about my

:03:38. > :03:44.committee's concerns, the roller coasters funding instead of

:03:45. > :03:47.steady-state funding, vague targets, vulnerable transport and energy

:03:48. > :03:50.infrastructure where the Government lacks the will to work with these

:03:51. > :03:56.companies to get them to have flood resilient assets and local councils

:03:57. > :04:03.who are left to get on with it by themselves. The storms may have

:04:04. > :04:07.receded for now at the clean-up in some areas across the country is

:04:08. > :04:12.still going on, and the lessons we draw from these two committees'

:04:13. > :04:22.reports will shape our winters and our summers for decades to come. The

:04:23. > :04:25.financing of flood defences is paramount importance to my

:04:26. > :04:32.constituency as my borough has been hit on a number of occasions, most

:04:33. > :04:40.devastating in 1953, which caused a loss of life with 58 residents and

:04:41. > :04:47.the evacuation of the population. The island is now protected by a

:04:48. > :04:53.concrete wall which runs 28 kilometres to protect the current

:04:54. > :04:58.population. It is still just good for a one in every thousand years

:04:59. > :05:06.event. I noticed the residents were not encouraged to evacuate in the

:05:07. > :05:11.event of a tidal surge. It is judged to be sound until the end of this

:05:12. > :05:16.century provided there is regular monitoring and maintenance, which is

:05:17. > :05:20.where the concern always from residents is to make sure the money

:05:21. > :05:26.is there to make sure we are upgrading maintenance.

:05:27. > :05:30.Notwithstanding how good the sea was art, other parts of my borough

:05:31. > :05:37.remain subject to a risk of surface water flooding, as occurred in 2013

:05:38. > :05:45.and 2014 when homes across the borough were flooded, including 1000

:05:46. > :05:50.homes on the island alone, so it is a serious problem for an island that

:05:51. > :05:57.remains one metre below sea level at high tide and is entirely flat. It

:05:58. > :06:00.prevents a problem for affective surface water drainage, said there

:06:01. > :06:06.was an outcry that the second significant flooding event in less

:06:07. > :06:12.than 11 months could not be dismissed as an act of God and

:06:13. > :06:19.whether serious failures were at fault and what could be done to

:06:20. > :06:23.reassure residents, so a grateful to Cabinet Office ministers and the

:06:24. > :06:27.Secretary for Defra who agreed to an investigation by the Government's

:06:28. > :06:32.chief scientist to make recommendations locally. His report

:06:33. > :06:38.found that extreme rainfall, problems with drainage, a power cut

:06:39. > :06:44.and pumps tripping and cutting out were foreseeable, many of which

:06:45. > :06:48.could be avoided, and he made a number of recommendations. An

:06:49. > :06:57.extraordinary amount of work has taken place, none has been spent on

:06:58. > :07:00.improvements and mitigation measures, the Environment Agency has

:07:01. > :07:09.invested in sluices and pumping stations, over ?500,000 for Harriers

:07:10. > :07:18.which are key to protecting South Bentley. Webcams have been installed

:07:19. > :07:24.to monitor comes and ditches, floodgates are expected to be

:07:25. > :07:28.completed by the end of the year. Blockages are being removed and

:07:29. > :07:34.faults identified. Anglian Water has invested millions and have been

:07:35. > :07:37.proactive in a public awareness campaigns to raise the importance

:07:38. > :07:43.locally of free-flowing water courses. They have undertaken a huge

:07:44. > :07:55.programme with grants up to ?50,000 for homes affect did previously. The

:07:56. > :08:00.partnership has become exemplary and resulted in a national reward, while

:08:01. > :08:04.the investigation is focused on the island, multi agency corporations

:08:05. > :08:11.had improvements for the entire borough. The partnership concluded a

:08:12. > :08:15.study to look at problems underground and model what they

:08:16. > :08:18.could be in future, whether they could see what they need going

:08:19. > :08:25.forward to make sure this does not happen again, whether stored ditches

:08:26. > :08:31.on roadsides, increased pipe sizes or whatever it may be, and they will

:08:32. > :08:36.shortly come forward with bids for South Essex local enterprise

:08:37. > :08:41.partnerships and local governments. Defra ministers have offered support

:08:42. > :08:46.to was in bits and I hope the woman will continue to support us in

:08:47. > :08:51.recognising the economic importance and stressing to mine and other

:08:52. > :08:54.local enterprise partnerships of deviations games in making sure

:08:55. > :08:59.communities remain economically viable. It is key to the

:09:00. > :09:06.regeneration of my borough that it is protected from nontidal and tidal

:09:07. > :09:12.flood water, especially given likely events in the future. I would also

:09:13. > :09:17.like to say how grateful my borough of our for the scheme making sure

:09:18. > :09:22.residents are not priced out but I note it is not available for

:09:23. > :09:27.businesses and I hope we can do some work there, nor does it apply for

:09:28. > :09:32.new builds and I urge the Government to do more to press planning

:09:33. > :09:37.departments to incorporate more surface water protection, perhaps

:09:38. > :09:42.even reversing the current rate of connection to the Seward system as

:09:43. > :09:46.it doesn't incentivise developers to consider sustainable drainage

:09:47. > :09:52.systems. I would in which the minister to visit Castle Point to

:09:53. > :09:56.see the work that has been done and also to meet local agencies to

:09:57. > :10:06.discuss what more is needed and how we can help the borough going

:10:07. > :10:12.forward. I want to start by referring to my own interest in

:10:13. > :10:16.flooding, which began in 2007 when South Yorkshire was partly flooded,

:10:17. > :10:23.and those events led to the Pitt review which recommended better,

:10:24. > :10:28.more corded and planning, improved resilience and a more strategic set

:10:29. > :10:37.of planning decisions as far as water is concerned, and I'm talking

:10:38. > :10:39.there are about local authority planning, but the challenges

:10:40. > :10:44.relating to flooding remained. Pete River flows could be more than twice

:10:45. > :10:55.current levels in some English regions died 2017 -- 2070 and many

:10:56. > :11:00.people in England are at risk of flooding. It is plausible that

:11:01. > :11:08.rainfall between 20 and 30% higher than normal could be experienced

:11:09. > :11:12.over the next ten years. It was always likely that the select

:11:13. > :11:17.committee of which I am a member would return to this important topic

:11:18. > :11:22.and I think that decision was accelerated by the 2015 floods which

:11:23. > :11:31.impacted on computer, Yorkshire and Somerset. We need to look at this

:11:32. > :11:35.again, the need became imperative in the context of the Government's

:11:36. > :11:42.phone flood resilience review. I want to focus my remarks on one

:11:43. > :11:48.aspect of the recommendations, the strategic approach to the management

:11:49. > :11:53.which we need to take with a special focus on the need for catchment

:11:54. > :11:59.scale planning. The visit to Holland, of which I was a member of

:12:00. > :12:04.the delegation, was critical in terms of framing the

:12:05. > :12:08.recommendations. We focused in our report on that fact-finding visit

:12:09. > :12:13.and every member was impressed by the rigorous manner with which the

:12:14. > :12:20.Dutch organise this its risk management approaches. The Dutch

:12:21. > :12:26.system is clear, accountable locally, regionally and nationally,

:12:27. > :12:30.and I am disappointed that the Government has dismissed so quickly

:12:31. > :12:33.recommendations, especially given the evidence we received to the

:12:34. > :12:39.effect that too much of what we do in England is still badly

:12:40. > :12:44.disjointed. What is particularly impressive with the Dutch model is

:12:45. > :12:51.its placement of water at the heart of the approach, not just water

:12:52. > :12:59.supply but spatial and economic planning, in other words hot water,

:13:00. > :13:04.its management and use as a major environmental resource is seen as a

:13:05. > :13:13.number one priority and so it should be in the UK. They start with the

:13:14. > :13:18.aim or catchment scale approach to planning for flood risk management

:13:19. > :13:23.which would involve an integration of the widest possible range of hard

:13:24. > :13:33.and soft engineering measures, including natural flood management.

:13:34. > :13:46.Support given to the committee underlines this point. The agency

:13:47. > :13:49.did not bring that into consideration as a means of

:13:50. > :14:00.preventing floodwaters building up at source. Natural England also told

:14:01. > :14:09.the committee that prevention and serious measures must be accompanied

:14:10. > :14:15.by action. All the emphasis that the government is not taking enough

:14:16. > :14:23.seriously the need for investment. The flood review programme looked at

:14:24. > :14:36.its pilot, which refer principally, and I quote, flood resilience in

:14:37. > :14:43.urban area will bring redevelopment and regeneration for the area. No

:14:44. > :14:53.mention of the need for a catchment scale response. The development of

:14:54. > :15:02.this alternative scheme, for one in some respects, does not meet the

:15:03. > :15:12.recommendations. No evidence that people get the cooperation required.

:15:13. > :15:22.Mentions of tree-planting and water catchment source where negligible.

:15:23. > :15:30.This is not a catchment scale scheme. If we do not stop prevent

:15:31. > :15:35.the flow in Barnsley, what is the point of placing this in Sheffield?

:15:36. > :15:45.All you will do is push the water for the loan scheme to Doncaster. --

:15:46. > :15:56.further demonstrates stream. I do not blame Sheffield. It has been

:15:57. > :16:01.encouraged to do so. They are more interested in leveraging private

:16:02. > :16:06.finance than delivering traditional approaches to flood risk management.

:16:07. > :16:14.It seems more interested and evading up pots of money than looking at the

:16:15. > :16:21.increasing evidence, which we saw at the committee, to support the

:16:22. > :16:31.recommendations and the needs for a large catchment scale scheme which

:16:32. > :16:37.would go with all the emerging aspects of evidence. I would like to

:16:38. > :16:45.go into the other aspects of the Defra report, with regard to

:16:46. > :16:48.resilience. Time will prevent me. I look forward to the minister's

:16:49. > :16:54.response and I hope she will address the need for them a proper catchment

:16:55. > :17:04.scale response to this issue, to have a more integrated approach to

:17:05. > :17:13.flood management in this country. I was on the Defra enquiry and was

:17:14. > :17:28.part of the flooding committee report. I am pleased that we are

:17:29. > :17:34.addressing this. I must start that they have committed an incredible

:17:35. > :17:41.?2.5 billion to flood prevention. Some excellent schemes are in place.

:17:42. > :17:49.It does represent a real terms in increasing capital from 1.7 billion

:17:50. > :17:53.pounds in the last Parliament. But they do want to raise some of the

:17:54. > :18:01.issues which have been addressed in these enquiries we are discussing. I

:18:02. > :18:05.will start with Somerset. In the Somerset levels, we are used to

:18:06. > :18:14.winter flooding. Not to the degree which was witnessed in the severe

:18:15. > :18:20.weather conditions in 2012, 2015 in 2014. We saw the whole area tongued

:18:21. > :18:31.effectively into an inland sea. I witnessed this at first hand some

:18:32. > :18:41.incredible 11,500 hectares of land under millions of cubic water. But

:18:42. > :18:44.the drainage tunnels had not been dealt with effectively since the

:18:45. > :18:58.1960s when they were installed. The knock-on effect was significant. The

:18:59. > :19:02.economic impact cost the local economy ?147 million. 50% of

:19:03. > :19:07.businesses were affected. I welcome the fact the government did react

:19:08. > :19:11.and we are optimistically looking ahead to never such serious

:19:12. > :19:20.consequences of being suffered again in Somerset. He has been ?20 million

:19:21. > :19:28.project by the government to improve flood defences. Every ?1 spent on

:19:29. > :19:38.flood defences is of benefit of between ?4- ?9. It is money well

:19:39. > :19:45.spent. The Somerset rivers authority is working with many organisations.

:19:46. > :19:55.It is going forward to run and manage the easier. It is finding a

:19:56. > :19:59.precept on council tax bills and I welcome the government continuing to

:20:00. > :20:04.work with them on its long-term funding arrangements and I do urge

:20:05. > :20:11.that the claim is know to get it onto a statutory basis. I believe it

:20:12. > :20:17.is a model which could also be copied elsewhere. It is not just

:20:18. > :20:28.dredging. It is so much other important work. It involves a range

:20:29. > :20:32.of organisations who I must praise. The lakes of farmers, who are

:20:33. > :20:42.encouraged to do so much forward planning. It is essential we allow

:20:43. > :20:49.it to continue to operate. Some areas that have been mentioned with

:20:50. > :20:55.regard to the club catchment areas. We were fairly dilated to have a

:20:56. > :21:05.good friend from Tiverton to speak to this gathering at the environment

:21:06. > :21:12.Forum. We discussed this new frock approach to flooding. There is an

:21:13. > :21:20.awful lot of positive seedy about how we could engage this approach on

:21:21. > :21:27.a much wider basis, using it tree-planting and soil management.

:21:28. > :21:30.There are a whole raft of traditional and modern techniques,

:21:31. > :21:39.working with science, in order to slow down the flow of water. It will

:21:40. > :21:46.not work everywhere, but it is an approach which could be part and

:21:47. > :21:50.parcel of everything else. With Brexit heading our way, we have a

:21:51. > :21:55.marked opportunity to have a whole new way of thinking about line

:21:56. > :22:02.management. I was heartened to read the response of the Defra board on

:22:03. > :22:08.flood prevention that the government is very much thinking of a catchment

:22:09. > :22:14.approach for the environment plan. I think it is very good at something

:22:15. > :22:19.we should work with. How much positive good is done from flood

:22:20. > :22:26.prevention. I would urge the Minister to do some early work to

:22:27. > :22:32.calculate how we can surely value this approach. If farmers know if

:22:33. > :22:39.the store water on the learned short-term or long-term, what would

:22:40. > :22:46.it cost, to achieve and what they should be paid. Farmers, and I will

:22:47. > :22:52.list the clearly a slight interest, I come from a farming background,

:22:53. > :22:56.they are cautious people. They do not want to use land unless there is

:22:57. > :23:04.a very good reason for it. I would urge the Minister to look at

:23:05. > :23:11.bringing in a large steel catchment project. This came up as a

:23:12. > :23:15.recommendation from Defra, so we can gather evidence as to what could

:23:16. > :23:20.happen on the weight scale with catchment alias. There are many

:23:21. > :23:24.small-scale projects working. We have heard many examples of today.

:23:25. > :23:31.But we do not have a large-scale operation. I would urge the Minister

:23:32. > :23:36.to see if she can have a look at running one of those projects. I

:23:37. > :23:42.would throw when that would it be possible to engage water companies

:23:43. > :23:51.more in this approach to how we handle flooding? After all, the

:23:52. > :23:56.dealing with water the NGO. -- the end, the boat.

:23:57. > :24:06.He did recommend a large catchment approach. It is definitely an idea

:24:07. > :24:17.which is coming into the public domain. I just want to touch on

:24:18. > :24:21.hosting. We need a huge increase in house-building, but let's make sure

:24:22. > :24:27.these are not exacerbating the flooding problem. Sustainable

:24:28. > :24:32.drainage can make such a contribution to both the environment

:24:33. > :24:37.and to put preventing flooding. I would urge that other departments

:24:38. > :24:47.work that into the plans, as well. It has no boundaries and we need to

:24:48. > :24:51.look at all aspects of it. Finally, I may be biased towards Somerset,

:24:52. > :25:02.but there is a lot of knowledge galloped with regard to flooding and

:25:03. > :25:07.a lot of data is being improved every day with regard to river

:25:08. > :25:12.possibly expanding this up across possibly expanding this up across

:25:13. > :25:19.the country. Brexit gives us this opportunity to look at how we run

:25:20. > :25:27.our land and we could have a whole new effective approach to flooding

:25:28. > :25:39.which would benefit us all. The cadence is six minutes, not name

:25:40. > :25:47.minutes. -- name. It is a pleasure to follow the member from Somerset.

:25:48. > :25:53.The flooding from 2015 is still being felt in Rochdale and

:25:54. > :25:59.surrounding areas. For many in my constituency, the recovery is still

:26:00. > :26:07.ongoing. Many businesses at the operation severely disrupted. Many

:26:08. > :26:12.farmers lost stock. The cost of insurance will force some of these

:26:13. > :26:18.businesses to close or relocate. I am grateful for the assistance given

:26:19. > :26:23.so far, in particular the flood resilience community Pathfinder

:26:24. > :26:31.which has helped in distressful claims. I hope the involvement with

:26:32. > :26:34.the community will continue. I commend efforts by Rochdale Council

:26:35. > :26:42.to address the problem caused by heavy rainfall last November.

:26:43. > :26:49.Fortunately, fewer people were affected than in previous years, but

:26:50. > :26:56.nevertheless, Rochdale Council were quick to provide emergency funding

:26:57. > :27:01.to residents under the programme. By late welcome efforts to alleviate

:27:02. > :27:08.the suffering of those affected and efforts to quickly restore

:27:09. > :27:15.emergencies, it is seen real flood prevention must be delivered. In

:27:16. > :27:23.Rochdale, we all know this remain fit is the river and its

:27:24. > :27:31.tributaries. They are committed to reducing flood risk. We want to see

:27:32. > :27:34.a successful flood alleviation programme implemented as soon as

:27:35. > :27:43.possible. We are working with the Environment Agency to put that in

:27:44. > :27:48.place. They have also committed ?7 million and that will protect at

:27:49. > :27:55.least 800 homes and 400 businesses. In addition, the council have

:27:56. > :28:03.completed the flood storage the scheme. They need more support from

:28:04. > :28:08.central government. Funding from central government would allow more

:28:09. > :28:14.storage sites, which we badly need. I appreciate the governments drive

:28:15. > :28:17.to invest in flood defences across the country and I am grateful for

:28:18. > :28:25.the projects launched so far in Rochdale.

:28:26. > :28:33.An eye on this are grateful for her response. However I am dismayed that

:28:34. > :28:37.we need to find further funding. Rochdale have been working

:28:38. > :28:41.extensively with the Environment Agency to maximise funding and I'm

:28:42. > :28:45.sure such efforts will continue. However, I believe such an urgent

:28:46. > :28:50.scheme as we have there should be eligible for more central Government

:28:51. > :28:54.funding. We also need momentum. An early decision on committing funding

:28:55. > :28:57.for this scheme is essential. Such programmes are complicated and have

:28:58. > :29:00.a long lead in time. For it to progress further we need a decision

:29:01. > :29:07.from the Government on future investment. Finally, I hope that

:29:08. > :29:11.Defra and Treasury will bear this in mind and ensure that Rochdale is

:29:12. > :29:15.given the priority it deserves. Last year during the Chancellor's Autumn

:29:16. > :29:19.Statement, many in Rochdale had anticipated extra funding to tackle

:29:20. > :29:23.flooding in the town but were left disappointed. I hope the Minister

:29:24. > :29:30.will act now to ensure the fears of residents and local businesses are

:29:31. > :29:38.no longer prolonged. Thank you. Thank you. May I start by thanking

:29:39. > :29:42.the Government for listing this debate so conveniently, because it

:29:43. > :29:48.follows on from the monumental event of my second Flood Forum on Friday

:29:49. > :29:53.evening. I hope it will help the rest of the house with the

:29:54. > :29:57.conclusions with drawn from that event. The reason I hold forums in

:29:58. > :30:00.my constituency is it provides a chance to bring experts together

:30:01. > :30:05.with local residents so they can raise issues with those experts and

:30:06. > :30:12.together we can find solutions. We know that flooding is a real risk in

:30:13. > :30:17.my constituency, both on the magnificent Lincolnshire coast line

:30:18. > :30:22.and also further inland in the beautiful Walt 's. Sadly that threat

:30:23. > :30:27.was demonstrated all too keenly on Friday the 13th of January this

:30:28. > :30:30.year, when a state of civil emergency was declared on the

:30:31. > :30:36.Lincolnshire coast line because weather forecasts suggested that a

:30:37. > :30:39.tidal surge could overtop the already pretty substantial sea

:30:40. > :30:45.defences putting many tens of thousands of people's lives at risk.

:30:46. > :30:49.As soon as that state of emergency was declared, more than 30

:30:50. > :30:51.organisations, locally and nationally, pulled together to try

:30:52. > :30:55.to ensure that residents were kept as safe as possible. I'm extremely

:30:56. > :31:00.grateful to the minister who sits on the front bench today and to the

:31:01. > :31:06.Minister for the Armed Forces, who put together a plan to bring more

:31:07. > :31:12.than 200 soldiers from Catterick to land from the surrounding area, so

:31:13. > :31:15.they could not an more than 1000 doors during a 72 hour period to

:31:16. > :31:18.ensure the most vulnerable people were offered the option of

:31:19. > :31:26.evacuation if they wanted to do that. I had better mention the Burma

:31:27. > :31:33.and Qu bec 2nd Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment. The fire

:31:34. > :31:40.officers, police officers, and Linz teams, as well as volunteers all

:31:41. > :31:46.played a vital role. The emergency rescue centres that were set up in a

:31:47. > :31:51.matter of hours I had the pleasure of visiting the rescue centre at the

:31:52. > :31:55.Meridian Centre in Louth and sort the comfort that vulnerable

:31:56. > :32:00.residents west receiving. Finally, at the Gold command centre in

:32:01. > :32:04.Lincoln, led very capably by the Chief Superintendent. I had the

:32:05. > :32:07.privilege of visiting it on Friday night to see all the teams working

:32:08. > :32:12.together as they reached the decision, locally and nationally,

:32:13. > :32:16.that happily the weather had turned and the risk had been averted. I

:32:17. > :32:21.would like to place on record my thanks to everyone involved in that

:32:22. > :32:25.huge effort. And to say I am rather proud of the fact that Lincolnshire

:32:26. > :32:27.showed the rest of the country how we can respond calmly and

:32:28. > :32:35.professionally to those threats when they arise. And it is as I said,

:32:36. > :32:37.better to be safe than sorry in those circumstances. But of course

:32:38. > :32:44.today we are talking about future flood prevention, and I am grateful

:32:45. > :32:50.to the Government that in the last five years, to 2015, more than ?50

:32:51. > :32:55.million has been provided in grants and aid to protect more than 23,000

:32:56. > :32:58.households from flooding along the coast. I am delighted that this

:32:59. > :33:03.scheme is continuing under the current front Government with a ?39

:33:04. > :33:07.million programme of Grant and eight capital to extend protection to a

:33:08. > :33:12.further fall team and a half thousand households. The future is

:33:13. > :33:15.an interesting one when it comes to flood prevention on the coast. We

:33:16. > :33:20.discussed in the Flood Forum on Friday night the possibility of

:33:21. > :33:26.building groins into the coastline which in turn can provide marinas

:33:27. > :33:29.and interesting environments for tourists to enjoy even more the

:33:30. > :33:37.wonders of the Lincolnshire coast line. The role of smaller investment

:33:38. > :33:41.schemes and the full product protection scheme are important, ?1

:33:42. > :33:53.million is being spent on replacing the pumping station and 300 --. All

:33:54. > :34:00.these measures play these roles in making sure my constituency remains

:34:01. > :34:06.resilient. Inland flooding, not many people know that Lincolnshire has

:34:07. > :34:13.hills! Indeed, Lincolnshire has some beautiful hills. With that beauty,

:34:14. > :34:18.sadly, comes some rainfall and the market towns and villages in the

:34:19. > :34:25.waltz have to deal with flooding from time to time. That is why a new

:34:26. > :34:29.flood alleviation schemes are welcome overwhelmingly wife by local

:34:30. > :34:32.communities. It is particularly important as developers seek to

:34:33. > :34:38.build yet more houses between there and the coast, something I know my

:34:39. > :34:42.honourable friend for Taunton Deane is concentrating on, may I therefore

:34:43. > :34:48.joined the voices of colleagues who have urged the Minister to encourage

:34:49. > :34:56.insurance businesses to look not just as households when

:34:57. > :34:59.protecting... In terms of insurance policy protections, but also to

:35:00. > :35:04.extend the protection to businesses? It is critical to small businesses

:35:05. > :35:12.in my constituency, including pubs and restaurants, that rely on the

:35:13. > :35:16.beautiful architecture of the market towns, we need the insurance to

:35:17. > :35:19.protect businesses as much is homes. And I'm extremely grateful for

:35:20. > :35:25.having had the opportunity as I say to share the delights of my

:35:26. > :35:30.constituency and the thoughts of constituents from the second Flood

:35:31. > :35:33.Forum, and I look forward to holding many more. I will hold a rolling

:35:34. > :35:36.programme of them over the years so that constituents can come to me

:35:37. > :35:42.with problems and Afrikaans sort them out then I will write to the

:35:43. > :35:46.Minister hoping she can do so. I end by wishing all my constituency and

:35:47. > :35:53.everyone living in flood risk areas, wishing we also they safe and dry

:35:54. > :35:58.for the rest of the year. I'm grateful the opportunity to

:35:59. > :36:07.contribute to this debate. I am pleased to follow the honourable

:36:08. > :36:13.lady. I will focus on recommendation 15, a statutory duty for the Fire

:36:14. > :36:15.and Rescue Service that the select committee have proposed. This

:36:16. > :36:20.recommendation is consistent with our other recommendations 16 to 21

:36:21. > :36:23.which will raise concern about governments can demanding control

:36:24. > :36:32.structures and relationships. The committee heard, evidence leading us

:36:33. > :36:36.to the recommendation. Sadly the Government disagrees. Recommendation

:36:37. > :36:42.15, says we recommend the Government places a statutory duty on the Fire

:36:43. > :36:47.Service and garden whirls to provide emergency response and commits the

:36:48. > :36:52.additional funding and resources to support the delivery of this

:36:53. > :36:56.responsibility. Come back to that. The Government's response says Fire

:36:57. > :37:01.And Rescue Services in England have already discretionary powers they

:37:02. > :37:06.need and goes on to say a statutory duty would potentially reduce

:37:07. > :37:13.flexibility with a one size fits all approach and Iraqi advantages to a

:37:14. > :37:18.permissive regime. That is doublespeak and euphemism if I have

:37:19. > :37:22.ever heard it! I am grateful to Pat Strickland and the library from

:37:23. > :37:26.their beef ring. Should the Fire Services have a statutory duty to

:37:27. > :37:33.deal with flooding, it outlines the Pitt review in 2008 into the 2007

:37:34. > :37:37.floods said there should be fully funded national capability for flood

:37:38. > :37:44.rescue underpinned as necessary by a statutory duty. In 2017, the

:37:45. > :37:48.policing and Fire Minister said the good response of the Fire Services

:37:49. > :37:55.to flooding in that year suggested there was no need for redo. And the

:37:56. > :37:58.Government arrived at the same decision. But we have seen more and

:37:59. > :38:02.more serious flood events since then so the situation is changing. The

:38:03. > :38:07.briefing paper details the law as it stands. It says the axe does not

:38:08. > :38:13.place a statutory duty to respond to floods although there is a power

:38:14. > :38:18.that the act sets out for statutory core functions of the Fire and

:38:19. > :38:21.rescue authorities to provide fire safety, fire fighting, the rescuing

:38:22. > :38:27.of protecting people from harm and road traffic incidents. The law in

:38:28. > :38:33.Scotland is different. There has been a statutory duty since 2013.

:38:34. > :38:37.The Pitt review took a similar view to that that now exist in Scotland.

:38:38. > :38:42.It says the review believes that clarifying communicating the role of

:38:43. > :38:48.each would improve in response to flooding. The concerns that the

:38:49. > :38:52.system structures and protocols developed to support national of

:38:53. > :38:55.multi-flood rescue assets remains ad hoc. We believe the Fire and Rescue

:38:56. > :38:59.Service should take on a leading role in this area, based on a fully

:39:00. > :39:05.funded capability. This would be the most effective as supported by a

:39:06. > :39:12.statutory duty. That is the core recommendations. Nothing much has

:39:13. > :39:15.changed. The library briefing goes on to examine the history of the

:39:16. > :39:20.proposal and the debates of the house. I would like to focus on the

:39:21. > :39:24.history of the Fire and Rescue Service statutory duties. I suspect

:39:25. > :39:29.colleagues might suspect that the Fire Service has always had a duty

:39:30. > :39:36.to attend fires. It was part of the fire that destroyed most of the

:39:37. > :39:39.powers of Westminster that led to the creation of the London Fire

:39:40. > :39:44.Brigade. Most colleagues would also probably expect the Fire and Rescue

:39:45. > :39:48.Service has a duty to prevent fires. I suspect most would consider the

:39:49. > :39:51.role of the Fire Service in dealing with road traffic collisions would

:39:52. > :40:00.be a statutory duty. That is not the case. On fire, the statutory duty

:40:01. > :40:09.was only created in 1938. The Fire safety it was 1947 full stop and for

:40:10. > :40:12.road crashes, it was 2004. So, when the Government says the Fire and

:40:13. > :40:18.Rescue Service will deal with floods because it has and it does and it

:40:19. > :40:22.will. That was also the case for fires, fire prevention and road

:40:23. > :40:25.traffic collisions until the prevailing wisdom decided that an

:40:26. > :40:30.expectation was not enough and the Government had to do more than just

:40:31. > :40:34.expect. They not only has to be a legal requirement to a duty, it has

:40:35. > :40:40.to be Resorts and paid for, the Government needs to legislate for

:40:41. > :40:43.that outcome. The report makes a case for changes in structures. Part

:40:44. > :40:48.of the recommendation is for better preparedness, better governments and

:40:49. > :40:51.stronger resilience, to confer a duty on the Fire Service to boost

:40:52. > :40:57.always elements. The Government clear leaders not wish to proceed in

:40:58. > :41:01.this direction at present. Does my Oracle friends share my suspicion

:41:02. > :41:05.that the Government's refusal to create a statutory duty in this

:41:06. > :41:13.regard is driven by the Dutchman's not to commit resources to this area

:41:14. > :41:16.of endeavour? He perfectly anticipates the next point I am

:41:17. > :41:22.going to make. The statistic I wanted to quote is that

:41:23. > :41:27.demonstrating the Government does not want proceed in this direction,

:41:28. > :41:30.is because Fire And Rescue Services staff reductions since 2010 are

:41:31. > :41:37.significant. Nearly 7000 jobs up and lost which is about 20% of the Fire

:41:38. > :41:41.Service, has disappeared since 2010 and those numbers are worrying. The

:41:42. > :41:48.transfer of responsibilities of the Fire And Rescue Services to more and

:41:49. > :41:53.police and combine commissioners means for many of us there is a real

:41:54. > :41:57.fear that more reductions can be expected. The Fire And Rescue

:41:58. > :42:01.Services to be able to maintain the staff and equipment to be able to

:42:02. > :42:05.continue to play the prominent role in not only dealing with floods but

:42:06. > :42:10.helping prepare for them and mitigate against them. To do that

:42:11. > :42:13.they need recognition in law, the singlets committee believes it needs

:42:14. > :42:18.to be done, it is an issue that will not go away, I suspect that some

:42:19. > :42:26.point, maybe not now, but at some point the Government will get the

:42:27. > :42:32.message. From the floods of storm either, we know that 453 residential

:42:33. > :42:35.properties and many commercial operatives were flooded in York but

:42:36. > :42:41.with extreme flooding we know it could rise to as how as 7200

:42:42. > :42:46.properties. Therefore the city is saying what is happening next? We

:42:47. > :42:55.have just had our own flood enquiry report. Just last month with around

:42:56. > :43:00.90 recommendations. No framework yet with how it will Government process.

:43:01. > :43:05.But we have to look back on what has happened after every flood, it seems

:43:06. > :43:10.the resources dry up and then we don't seem to move further forward.

:43:11. > :43:13.And as we have heard from my honourable friend, the services

:43:14. > :43:16.which should be in there between the flooding, not just addressing the

:43:17. > :43:22.issues flooding itself but also dealing with the issues of flood

:43:23. > :43:26.literacy, prevention and lit resilience, which the Fire authority

:43:27. > :43:29.would be well placed to address, those issues seem not to be

:43:30. > :43:35.addressed. That has been my real disappointment in the Government's

:43:36. > :43:43.responds to the excellent reports by both the effort select

:43:44. > :43:51.One of the things which has come to light is that we need to look at

:43:52. > :43:56.resilience. The team looks at a emergency response but does not look

:43:57. > :44:02.at resilience measures in dry seasons. We need to look at how this

:44:03. > :44:07.could be used more proactively to make sure resilience measures are

:44:08. > :44:12.incentivised to make sure they are built into properties when the sun

:44:13. > :44:20.is shining, rather than waiting for the next flight to occur. I would

:44:21. > :44:25.like to ask the Minister when she plans to review the flood prevention

:44:26. > :44:36.scheme? Many people do not have access to insurance since the floods

:44:37. > :44:40.in 2009. We also continue to see there is still such the need for a

:44:41. > :44:48.scheme for businesses. We think there could be a matrix model in

:44:49. > :44:53.scheme in place for businesses. What progress has the Minister made in

:44:54. > :44:59.examining opportunities for this? Businesses still have not heard of

:45:00. > :45:03.it. What is she doing to promote the scheme in the interim of putting a

:45:04. > :45:11.proper scheme in place? In your work, emergency measures have been

:45:12. > :45:16.put in place with regard to the flood barrier. ?17 million of

:45:17. > :45:24.investment. This should have taken place over the past 30 years. We

:45:25. > :45:29.were able to shift 50 tonnes of whatever sick and should the belly

:45:30. > :45:36.of the need to put into operation. But we are seeing more needs to be

:45:37. > :45:42.done. I am not talking about building defences. I am talking

:45:43. > :45:46.about flood protection and management. What the Environment

:45:47. > :45:53.Agency has said is that we are waiting till 2021 until the next

:45:54. > :45:59.spending review. The Minister boasts about ?15 million being spent. That

:46:00. > :46:04.is a drop in the ocean when it comes to building resilience measures. We

:46:05. > :46:08.need proper investment no instant stead of mapping out the catchment

:46:09. > :46:13.areas and working out what needs to be done in the future. We have seen

:46:14. > :46:18.the lack of ambition from the government with regard to the tree

:46:19. > :46:25.planting programme. We need to look at how forestry can play a major

:46:26. > :46:30.part in flood management. Europe is looking at our catchment and the

:46:31. > :46:36.work being done by the University of York. I have urged the Minister to

:46:37. > :46:38.commit today to fully fund the seven phases of this research. This better

:46:39. > :46:52.land management will take water and have it moving

:46:53. > :47:02.upstream rather than downstream. Does the Minister went to address

:47:03. > :47:09.the fact that it will appear in need 25 year environment plan. It is

:47:10. > :47:16.already late. Or will it take 25 years to be written? We are waiting

:47:17. > :47:21.to see what it has got to say. There is a real need in the budget next

:47:22. > :47:28.week to make sure proper investment is made no, not waiting until 2021

:47:29. > :47:37.for proper catchment management. The other issue I want to touch on is

:47:38. > :47:42.the issue of governments. In your work, we were left without a plan

:47:43. > :47:47.for managing the floods. Your work was badly let down by the lack of

:47:48. > :47:53.action the City Council was able to make. There is also poor governments

:47:54. > :47:57.with regard to the Environment Agency mismanaging the process. What

:47:58. > :48:03.governance structures as the Minister putting in place to make

:48:04. > :48:08.sure local authority plans have professional oversight and risk

:48:09. > :48:13.assessed to make sure the fit for purpose? Cannot expect local

:48:14. > :48:18.authorities to sit over this when the waves could be at risk.

:48:19. > :48:26.Resilience planning is so important to do that in the dry season and not

:48:27. > :48:29.to it when it rains and it floods. I want the Minister to see what

:48:30. > :48:36.further steps she would take note to make sure we have a resilient nation

:48:37. > :48:43.when it comes to flooding? This debate follows major enquiries of

:48:44. > :48:49.the social, environmental and economic impact of flooding. It was

:48:50. > :48:57.made with the help of two separate committees. I sat in one of them. I

:48:58. > :49:03.took a close interest in developing the committee 's conclusions in

:49:04. > :49:11.preparation for the final report. The committee report called for the

:49:12. > :49:15.government to strengthen policies to protect communities in England from

:49:16. > :49:23.increasing flood risk. Last November, when the environment

:49:24. > :49:30.committee published its report, we criticise the government 's lack of

:49:31. > :49:35.approach to flood management. This was the product of a great deal of

:49:36. > :49:44.work spent visiting areas of England badly affected by flooding. We also

:49:45. > :49:48.reported from the Netherlands, where we observed a number of government

:49:49. > :49:54.organisations getting involved in flood prevention in order to

:49:55. > :49:58.understand how flood prevention was managed in that country. That

:49:59. > :50:05.evidence collected was in stark contrast to that collected in

:50:06. > :50:17.England. Many places in England were badly affected by three successive

:50:18. > :50:24.storms. We had risk management systems which could only be tingly

:50:25. > :50:28.regarded as reactive. There was nothing I observed in England and

:50:29. > :50:30.was left with the impression that Community Shield that this

:50:31. > :50:40.appointment and the level of concern. The overall view is that

:50:41. > :50:45.flooding is received with an inadequate emergency response. In

:50:46. > :50:57.the Netherlands, the situation could not be more different. The idea with

:50:58. > :51:04.much quicker. The expats highlighted many innovative methods with regard

:51:05. > :51:12.to management control to the flood and flow of water to the prevention

:51:13. > :51:19.of flooding. The people of the Netherlands regard flooding as I

:51:20. > :51:25.feel we are of these agencies. The Netherlands use flood prevention is

:51:26. > :51:28.a social issue. The cake a strategic approach to guarantee correct water

:51:29. > :51:39.management and the protection of life and property. We consider

:51:40. > :51:46.flooding and unpredictable and inevitable coincidence of changing

:51:47. > :51:56.weather conditions. The Defra select committee looked not at bowing more

:51:57. > :52:03.pompous, but a bigger model of recognising flooding as a social

:52:04. > :52:10.problem. They want more coordinated action and a better approach to

:52:11. > :52:14.flood prevention. We think the government has two point floods

:52:15. > :52:23.Minister to be responsible for longer term flood protection

:52:24. > :52:29.schemes. The video of others through regional and coastal boards and an

:52:30. > :52:35.integrated national plan, in partnership with the government.

:52:36. > :52:47.They would take on lead local authority rules and would assume the

:52:48. > :52:53.current Environment Agency role to delivery efficient and natural flood

:52:54. > :52:57.prevention plan. This business model would streamline responsibilities,

:52:58. > :53:05.coordinate resources and pool expertise, to allow each body to go

:53:06. > :53:11.with funding from Lee linked to outcomes, including the financial

:53:12. > :53:17.ones. This was intended to deliver an auction of catchment areas on a

:53:18. > :53:25.much wider scale, including the installation of drainage systems,

:53:26. > :53:33.flood risk communication and to organisational and regional boards,

:53:34. > :53:44.covering insurance, prevention and emergency response. This was

:53:45. > :53:48.directed at flood management, rather than an individual approach. The

:53:49. > :53:54.committee 's recommendations were to make use of natural resources and

:53:55. > :54:00.recognise the negative impact of flooding on funding. The UK

:54:01. > :54:04.Government pattern of spending is as unpredictable as the flooding

:54:05. > :54:20.itself. The fluctuation in spending -- spending has seen some budgets

:54:21. > :54:30.topped up beyond expected levels. The environmental audit committee

:54:31. > :54:34.say that the death committee initial report was a very disappointing

:54:35. > :54:39.response from the United Kingdom government. It was summed up in one

:54:40. > :54:44.sentence. I quote, we do not believe there is a need for substantial

:54:45. > :54:48.change to local government provisions for flood risk

:54:49. > :54:58.management. When challenged on that inadequacy, the said later from

:54:59. > :55:02.undersecretary from the Ministry which noted that although we do not

:55:03. > :55:06.agree there is a need for substantial structural change, we

:55:07. > :55:14.are always looking for a wheeze to improve to meet current and future

:55:15. > :55:20.demand. The United, government wants improvement, but just not the

:55:21. > :55:25.improvement recommended by two select committees. By ignoring the

:55:26. > :55:28.detailed reports from these two committees, the government is

:55:29. > :55:35.missing an opportunity to bring in wide-ranging changes which would

:55:36. > :55:41.help the government to meet current and future demands. The failure to

:55:42. > :55:46.do that is not only a waste of money, the other losing households,

:55:47. > :55:50.communities and businesses across the country facing possible

:55:51. > :55:55.disaster. The measures fall far short of what is required. This

:55:56. > :56:00.debate takes place as part of the supply process. This is a way in

:56:01. > :56:06.which the government may take authority for government spending

:56:07. > :56:10.plans. In practice, the debates are CDs of general debate whether one

:56:11. > :56:17.thing is not discussed is the original estimates. There is

:56:18. > :56:20.generally also not any vote. This house has abandoned all

:56:21. > :56:27.opportunities to take control of public expenditure by means of

:56:28. > :56:31.debate presented to the house. This is particularly important to

:56:32. > :56:47.Scottish members of Parliament. The estimates process meant that the

:56:48. > :56:52.English votes for English laws excluded them from. It feels to

:56:53. > :56:55.factor in an effective mission method of scrutinising the

:56:56. > :57:05.government. That is to the detriment of everyone. 241 from the workshop

:57:06. > :57:12.by honourable colleague, I have not seen this produced, but this is the

:57:13. > :57:17.estimates Bill. The estimates for Defra that we are meant to be

:57:18. > :57:25.debating today are included with them. I rather confused by the

:57:26. > :57:33.proceedings today. I have not heard any discussion surrounding the

:57:34. > :57:38.figures. I have heard no critical analysis of the departmental

:57:39. > :57:44.spending. It was made very clear this is a stage we're Scottish MPs

:57:45. > :57:49.are supposed to analyse this to deal with the consequences of policy on

:57:50. > :57:54.UK legislation. There appears to be little or no discussion. I want to

:57:55. > :58:06.discuss a few points from the estimates. I am afraid, it is not in

:58:07. > :58:13.order. If you could discuss the topic on the order vapour which was

:58:14. > :58:18.chosen by the liaison committee. We had this issue last time. If the

:58:19. > :58:26.honourable gentleman could move on to what is on the order paper. I was

:58:27. > :58:37.not hear the last time these estimates were discussed. I am not

:58:38. > :58:42.allowed to do that? What we are discussing is flood prevention

:58:43. > :58:48.specifically. That was chosen by the liaison committee. We did have this

:58:49. > :58:53.subject last year. I am sure we can find other avenues to discuss than

:58:54. > :59:31.later. But no, it is simply flood prevention.

:59:32. > :59:40.Is it the ruling of the chair that in fact the contents of HC 946 as

:59:41. > :59:45.real rating to Defra are not for debate in this debate? If the

:59:46. > :59:50.honourable gentleman has a read of the order paper, if he looks at the

:59:51. > :59:55.notes, it says this estimate is to be considered insofar as it relates

:59:56. > :00:00.to flood prevention, resolution of 21st of February. The question is

:00:01. > :00:09.necessary to dispose of proceedings will be deferred until 7pm. That is

:00:10. > :00:14.what the critical element you. Thank you. I'm from a constituency like

:00:15. > :00:17.many members that his susceptible to flooding and has flooded quite

:00:18. > :00:21.dramatically over the last few years. I have been interested many

:00:22. > :00:24.of the points made by the members. It has been a very informed debate

:00:25. > :00:31.and there have been many excellent points made. The chair of the audit

:00:32. > :00:34.committee who is no longer in her place, talked about a stop start

:00:35. > :00:37.nature of the process to flood management cross the rest of the UK.

:00:38. > :00:43.And a lack of strategic planning which has been at apparent in this

:00:44. > :00:47.debate. She talked about businesses being affected by flooding and I

:00:48. > :00:50.have some specific issues which I know I have questioned the Minister

:00:51. > :00:54.on before and she has given me helpful answers which I will touch

:00:55. > :01:00.on later. The honourable member from Castle Point, I was pleased to hear

:01:01. > :01:04.that she joined my cause and expressed some concern about the

:01:05. > :01:09.availability of affordable insurance to small businesses, something I

:01:10. > :01:15.will mention later. Share the honourable member from Taunton

:01:16. > :01:18.Deane, talked what about land management and contribution that

:01:19. > :01:21.land management techniques can make to reduce the risk of flooding, and

:01:22. > :01:27.I think is worth pointing out at this juncture was major debates in

:01:28. > :01:31.my constituency has been surrounding the extent to which these land

:01:32. > :01:37.management techniques can actually mitigate the risk of flooding. When

:01:38. > :01:40.towns in my constituency have flooded with find it difficult to

:01:41. > :01:43.find an expert that can say that felling trees or tidying the river

:01:44. > :01:48.banks or dredging a particular river would have made a significant

:01:49. > :01:54.difference. It appears the one thing that contributes most to the risk of

:01:55. > :02:00.flooding, that is not really in a public's mind, is the huge amount of

:02:01. > :02:03.rainfall. There is some way to go in terms of the debate in public

:02:04. > :02:06.consciousness about the things that contribute to the risk of flooding

:02:07. > :02:15.and the things that can mitigate the risk. I was interested to hear the

:02:16. > :02:17.comments from my honourable friend, talking about bringing people

:02:18. > :02:26.together, and I think she is right, and I think all MPs in such

:02:27. > :02:33.constituencies will be impressed by how members of the public come

:02:34. > :02:42.together. She brought the record for plugging her constituency and plug

:02:43. > :02:46.congratulating the front bench. There was an excellent summary of

:02:47. > :02:52.the committee report and focusing on the commit experiences learned in

:02:53. > :02:56.Holland, where the principle is proactivity and strategic

:02:57. > :03:00.management, whereas the strategy in the UK seems to be very

:03:01. > :03:04.unpredictable and seems to be about managing consequences of emergency

:03:05. > :03:08.situation, I think that tax needs to change. Within the relevant

:03:09. > :03:14.documents listed on the order paper to which this debate is restricted

:03:15. > :03:18.today, there is a section at page 23 on business insurance. The situation

:03:19. > :03:24.in many other towns in my constituency is that there are 30 to

:03:25. > :03:28.40 small businesses on either side of the high street and the high

:03:29. > :03:31.street has flooded. These businesses have tried to get affordable

:03:32. > :03:40.insurance, they can get a policy with manageable premiums but the

:03:41. > :03:43.access is completely unmanageable, from ?15,000 upwards. If the main

:03:44. > :03:48.street was to flood again none of those businesses could deal with

:03:49. > :03:53.that access. I'm concerned to see the assessment at page 23 to 24

:03:54. > :03:58.which says in the opinion of Defra they do not consider there has been

:03:59. > :04:02.a market failure in respect of business insurance for those in

:04:03. > :04:07.flood risk areas. It talks only about cost of policies and

:04:08. > :04:11.availability of policies, not excesses. I wonder if the Minister

:04:12. > :04:13.could inform the house as to whether manageable accesses is one of the

:04:14. > :04:18.criteria the department considered when it made the judgment that there

:04:19. > :04:23.had not been a market failure. I was surprised of course read the figures

:04:24. > :04:26.from the Federation of small business and other organisations

:04:27. > :04:29.that they thought there was a small percentage of businesses that have

:04:30. > :04:33.these problems. That does not meet with my understanding of what has

:04:34. > :04:37.happened in my constituency. This is a very difficult issue and one that

:04:38. > :04:41.has the potential to put swathes of our high street out of business. I

:04:42. > :04:48.accept the arguments that perhaps the participants in the scheme

:04:49. > :04:51.should not be made to paper businesses. But there is clear

:04:52. > :04:57.market failure of it is to be dealt with. In conclusion, the approach in

:04:58. > :05:00.Scotland is not perfect but it seems to be more advanced than in the rest

:05:01. > :05:04.of the UK. We have a statutory basis for a flood management plan. We

:05:05. > :05:11.passed the act in 2009 which compelled all 32 was 40s across

:05:12. > :05:15.Scotland to come up with plans. They have done so. 80% of the money has

:05:16. > :05:21.been committed by the Scottish Government. I am looking forward to

:05:22. > :05:24.the conclusion of that process in 2022 when all of these flood

:05:25. > :05:31.defences shall be built and we look at the next round of strategic

:05:32. > :05:40.planning in Scotland. Thank you. It has been a really interesting

:05:41. > :05:45.debate. Admirably opened by the chair of the Defra select committee,

:05:46. > :05:48.who opened with some interesting information from the report. It was

:05:49. > :05:52.followed by the chair of the environmental audit committee who

:05:53. > :05:59.talked about the huge impact that that climate change is having on our

:06:00. > :06:01.communities. The member for Penistone and Stockbridge spoke

:06:02. > :06:10.knowledgeably about the importance of catchment planning of the Dutch

:06:11. > :06:14.model, and the honourable member used his knowledge of working with

:06:15. > :06:19.the Fire And Rescue Services to show why statutory duty is needed. The

:06:20. > :06:23.member for York Central shared her considerable experience on this

:06:24. > :06:28.issue is stressed the importance of funding research being carried out

:06:29. > :06:34.as universities like York. Making communities truly flood resilient is

:06:35. > :06:38.great of one of our greatest challenges. Flooding varies greatly.

:06:39. > :06:43.The flooding in Somerset was not the same as on the use closed, and was

:06:44. > :06:48.very different to Cumbria. This house is aware of the devastating

:06:49. > :06:52.affect the storm Desmond had on my community last winter as well as the

:06:53. > :06:57.previous flooding. Flooding is not just about water. In Cumbria it

:06:58. > :07:02.roars down the fells, carrying everything in its path. Drains

:07:03. > :07:06.overflow and a huge amount of rocks and gravel and trees race along in

:07:07. > :07:12.the water. Floods are incredibly destructive. We had roads and

:07:13. > :07:18.bridges completely destroyed. What do we do? We need, as has been

:07:19. > :07:22.discussed, to look at the whole river catchment, we need to invest

:07:23. > :07:29.in sustainable drainage systems, and I believe we need to stop talking

:07:30. > :07:34.about flood prevention. We can't prevent flooding, but we can manage

:07:35. > :07:38.it and we can make our communities properly resilient. People are

:07:39. > :07:43.nervous, frightened, it is time we took seriously the effect on mental

:07:44. > :07:48.health. Every time it rains heavily, in Cumbria that is not rare, people

:07:49. > :07:53.are scared it will happen again. The University of Cumbria is carrying

:07:54. > :07:57.out a survey into mental well-being, an important piece of work in

:07:58. > :08:00.understanding better the effect of flooding and repeated flooding on

:08:01. > :08:05.our communities. We'll so need to look at how we improve emergency

:08:06. > :08:10.planning across the country. Flooded communities pull together in

:08:11. > :08:15.extraordinary way the crisis, but they feel there is insufficient

:08:16. > :08:20.progress, due partly to a lack of leadership, both locally and

:08:21. > :08:23.nationally, we have local Flood action groups with a wealth of

:08:24. > :08:26.knowledge and experience but who feel kept out of the loop when it

:08:27. > :08:31.comes to decision-making and information sharing. This is deeply

:08:32. > :08:34.frustrating for smaller communities who feel they are not important

:08:35. > :08:42.because of their small populations. Why should small areas be left out

:08:43. > :08:47.because there is only a few homes? There have been calls in this report

:08:48. > :08:52.for a national flood authority, perhaps this is what is needed. But

:08:53. > :08:57.if so, local communities must have a clear route into it. Can the

:08:58. > :09:01.Minister assure me that local Flood action groups and communities

:09:02. > :09:04.including local farmers will be properly consulted and listened to

:09:05. > :09:09.when developing the truly holistic approach to flood management that we

:09:10. > :09:14.need? The Environment Agency told me after the floods in Cumbria that the

:09:15. > :09:18.flood defences that were installed after 2009 did what they were

:09:19. > :09:24.designed to do, and they did. But this was not sufficient for the

:09:25. > :09:28.scale of the floods in 2015, as was the case in the areas such as York.

:09:29. > :09:31.They made a big difference to some areas and to some families, but this

:09:32. > :09:36.was little comfort to the many people made homeless at Christmas

:09:37. > :09:42.time. The Government has promised more funding for defences, but the

:09:43. > :09:45.cast for Comrie alone is it estimated that ?500 million and

:09:46. > :09:50.solutions we need a much more than building higher and higher walls.

:09:51. > :09:54.The water has to go somewhere. If we are not careful, we will build flood

:09:55. > :10:02.defences which protect one area but damages another. We have to look at

:10:03. > :10:05.flooding planning. There has simply been too much building over the

:10:06. > :10:10.years on flood plains. The Government says this is known of a

:10:11. > :10:15.problem, as the law was changed in 2009 to prevent the building on

:10:16. > :10:18.flood plains, but I've edited two separate areas where houses that had

:10:19. > :10:22.never flooded before were flooded after new housing developments have

:10:23. > :10:27.been those close by. We have to consider the potential impact of all

:10:28. > :10:30.proposed developers on other properties. Perhaps we need a

:10:31. > :10:37.solution looking at revising flood impact planning regulations. And

:10:38. > :10:40.gravel also causes huge damage to infrastructure, to farmland and two

:10:41. > :10:46.river banks. Parishes and landowners used to keep the water courses

:10:47. > :10:50.Clearasil and daybreak, but since this management has stopped, local

:10:51. > :10:53.farmers and residents tell me this has not only raise the height of the

:10:54. > :10:58.rivers but also the bridges have huge deposits of gravel around them.

:10:59. > :11:02.Bridges can be extreme pitch points and can end up as dams and become

:11:03. > :11:07.clogged with all this debut which then backs the water up again. Then

:11:08. > :11:13.you get huge deposits of gravel on farmland is next to the river. One

:11:14. > :11:20.farmer I know, after the 2009 floods, he had ?35,000 Bill for

:11:21. > :11:24.clearing up and have the same Bill in 2015. How will diminish in short

:11:25. > :11:28.upper river Leishman takes place, and as she prepared to look at an

:11:29. > :11:33.incentive scheme to pay farmers to allow storage of floodwater on-farm

:11:34. > :11:37.land to reduce risk? Household insurance has been discussed a lot.

:11:38. > :11:45.Often it is offered as we have heard with huge accesses or not at all.

:11:46. > :11:50.Flood rias welcomed but it is in its infancy and has does not work

:11:51. > :11:54.everyone. I welcomed the new schemes to cover businesses. This is

:11:55. > :11:58.something I have been pressing for, but it is in its infancy and these

:11:59. > :12:04.schemes need to be monitored very closely. Business flood claims tend

:12:05. > :12:07.to be philosophy trade which can be significant. The consequences for

:12:08. > :12:12.small businesses who might not be able to get insurance again can be

:12:13. > :12:18.catastrophic. We have to get to grips with this or bankruptcies will

:12:19. > :12:24.increase and businesses will close. After 2015 flooding David Cameron

:12:25. > :12:28.said money was no object. The Government must honour this and

:12:29. > :12:30.provide the resources needed to tackle flooding and provide the

:12:31. > :12:36.resilience communities are so desperate for. Since the floods we

:12:37. > :12:38.have been promised additional capital expenditure, but

:12:39. > :12:43.unfortunately little in the way of spades in the ground. We do not have

:12:44. > :12:48.time to waste on this. Flooding is not going away. We need a

:12:49. > :12:53.comprehensive plan in place for every community at risk of flooding,

:12:54. > :12:59.covering the whole of the flood Bain and drainage basin. There is no one

:13:00. > :13:02.size fits all solution. Decision-makers must talk to the

:13:03. > :13:06.people on the ground. There is so much experience in local

:13:07. > :13:09.communities, especially farmers who have knowledge dating back

:13:10. > :13:15.generations. It would be criminal not to use this at our disposal. If

:13:16. > :13:19.the Government does not act immediately, we face the severe risk

:13:20. > :13:34.of communities like those in my constituency becoming ghost towns.

:13:35. > :13:45.Finally, will the Minister assurers that the funds will be made

:13:46. > :13:52.available? I would like to congratulate my honourable friend

:13:53. > :13:57.for opening this baby. Also, for the many members who contributed, often

:13:58. > :14:08.from personal experience of people in the constituencies. It was also a

:14:09. > :14:14.pleasure to be in her constituency recently visiting the toy shop on

:14:15. > :14:25.the high street of one of her principal towns. Flood management is

:14:26. > :14:31.a priority for the government. It presents significant risk. We are

:14:32. > :14:38.putting in place robust, long-term strategies to protect the nation. In

:14:39. > :14:45.terms of the impact flooding can have on the community. I am fairly

:14:46. > :14:51.and of that. In severe cases, it can lead to loss of life, but even in

:14:52. > :14:57.less dramatic circumstances, it can lead to loss of property, business

:14:58. > :15:08.and have a major effect on homes and schools. We are looking at the major

:15:09. > :15:15.impact of coastal erosion and I am grateful to the cheer of the local

:15:16. > :15:19.special interest group. It is a level of experience which is working

:15:20. > :15:24.together with the Environment Agency and others, the likes of local

:15:25. > :15:32.councils, to make good local decisions. I will give way. Will she

:15:33. > :15:37.pressed the Environment Agency clear that there's a lot of new house

:15:38. > :15:48.building in our area, which we believe the contribute to flooding,

:15:49. > :16:01.with the be a drive for retrofitting is to be attached to new houses. I

:16:02. > :16:05.am trying to find out and establish to discuss flooding challenges and

:16:06. > :16:15.the area. I have another intervention. Could the Minister:

:16:16. > :16:25.from that point Lookout major builders who can eat into the system

:16:26. > :16:32.knowing there will be one-way valves in this causes the system to flood.

:16:33. > :16:39.The taxpayers have to pay that bill. The developers ought to be paying

:16:40. > :16:43.that. We should not be putting new houses at risk. The honourable lady

:16:44. > :16:49.speaks very passionately about this because it affects people near her

:16:50. > :16:51.constituency. I would stress that the Environment Agency does work

:16:52. > :16:58.with local councils and that is clear guidance in the national

:16:59. > :17:04.planning policy network when you building comes in, they follow the

:17:05. > :17:10.advice of the Environment Agency is accepted 98% of the claim that it is

:17:11. > :17:16.the clear duty to consider the risk on existing housing stock as well as

:17:17. > :17:21.the new housing. I am aware of the situation she referred to and I have

:17:22. > :17:24.revealed this back with regard to how we make it clear that

:17:25. > :17:33.permissions granted in the first place. I am pleased to hear about

:17:34. > :17:44.representations. Could she do the same about making it my dad today

:17:45. > :17:49.mandatory for the new systems to be earmarked? The development of ten

:17:50. > :17:55.houses are more, the councils are expected to do that. I hope she will

:17:56. > :18:00.see progress in our own area locally. She referred to the

:18:01. > :18:09.situation in Sheffield. When I met a member of the businesses and people

:18:10. > :18:13.talking about the future in Sheffield, that was not what I hear

:18:14. > :18:20.it. It was one of the outcomes that we wanted to see Sheffield being

:18:21. > :18:23.pioneered with the combination of public and private investment. I

:18:24. > :18:35.need to make progress. I will not give way at this moment. Returning

:18:36. > :18:43.to funding, part of this is that the government continues to improve the

:18:44. > :18:51.prevention and identification of flood risk. Coastal erosion is

:18:52. > :18:59.resulting in a substantial increase in the spending. One of the key

:19:00. > :19:03.changes is that the hand to mouth existence, having this long-term

:19:04. > :19:07.approach to spending will allow the Environment Agency to do the

:19:08. > :19:12.appropriate planning and get on with their work, rather than guessing

:19:13. > :19:19.along something will take. We have also increased maintenance spending.

:19:20. > :19:25.It will be over ?1 billion. The honourable leader of four Wakefield,

:19:26. > :19:31.it used to be the case that it was all or nothing funding. There was no

:19:32. > :19:41.latitude for a number of schemes to be considered. I think it matters

:19:42. > :19:44.that there have been beds need to increase the development and to

:19:45. > :19:51.partner that funding. With regard to Rochdale, I would say that I have

:19:52. > :19:56.here carefully what he said today and I will look at the particular

:19:57. > :20:07.issue he raised. With regard to the catchment approach, I welcome the

:20:08. > :20:13.support this approach is received. I am pleased that my honourable friend

:20:14. > :20:19.is welcome the fact that we are introducing a new reporting measure

:20:20. > :20:23.on natural flood management in future years. It has been referred

:20:24. > :20:31.to the fact that we have set aside ?15 million for natural flooding

:20:32. > :20:36.schemes. I have not seen the candidates for this year, but I know

:20:37. > :20:39.the Environment Agency are looking at this. I know about the

:20:40. > :20:46.recommendations from the select committee. Some of these are already

:20:47. > :20:51.being used in certain flood schemes, but I think it is important to

:20:52. > :20:56.haven't criteria on which we can measure. With regard to future and

:20:57. > :21:04.past experience, her committee report, it referred to the fact that

:21:05. > :21:11.the house can see it is better prepared than it has been before to

:21:12. > :21:15.deal with particular issues. The honourable member said they could

:21:16. > :21:20.not change the weather. I am not divine in that regard, but we're

:21:21. > :21:24.working hard to make sure that lessons taken from previous floods

:21:25. > :21:30.came into the national budgetary review. I have been cheering the

:21:31. > :21:37.weekly meetings in the run-up to this which have only just finished.

:21:38. > :21:43.We are making progress with what is happening with the individual

:21:44. > :21:48.funding providers. We are meeting all those with an interest in flood

:21:49. > :21:55.prevention. We are also looking at the Environment Agency agency

:21:56. > :21:59.investing in mobile defences which can be deployed flexibly around the

:22:00. > :22:09.country. This has been referred to, the role of the Army in recent

:22:10. > :22:12.flooding. They were deployed in both Lincolnshire and Norfolk at the

:22:13. > :22:17.request of the local resilience Forum. Mid Sussex and Essex decided

:22:18. > :22:23.they did not need the help of the Armed Forces. This will mean the

:22:24. > :22:26.country will be better protected than protect our communities and

:22:27. > :22:33.make them more resilient against flooding. We intend to look surface

:22:34. > :22:41.flooding, which is a problem in urban areas. We will talk to other

:22:42. > :22:48.stakeholders with regard to managing the risk. In terms of the risk of

:22:49. > :22:53.bringing things together, we all recognise that flooding affects many

:22:54. > :22:57.aspects of our lives. We do consider carefully the recommendations of the

:22:58. > :23:01.report on structures, but we did not agree there was a need for

:23:02. > :23:06.substantial change. That does not mean we could not always find ways

:23:07. > :23:10.to make it work even better. I think the local action plan published by

:23:11. > :23:18.the government in January is a good example of a name to put forward

:23:19. > :23:23.Best practice is effectively and efficiently as possible. I think we

:23:24. > :23:33.are at this stage we eat councils have not started their plan. I have

:23:34. > :23:38.written to them. I have said if action is not undertaken by the end

:23:39. > :23:42.of next month, we will use force to get the plans moving forward. In

:23:43. > :23:50.terms of working together, we should recognise that the current system

:23:51. > :23:53.means we have, since 2005, more than half a million properties are better

:23:54. > :24:00.defender Danny Gavin. One of the things I want to get is the

:24:01. > :24:05.structural change right now. We are getting a wee of delivering flood

:24:06. > :24:09.prevention and resilience measures which are being undertaken in the

:24:10. > :24:14.next few years. I am not convinced that changing the names of who does

:24:15. > :24:20.what is going to actually change the wee different bodies work together.

:24:21. > :24:28.In terms of the Fire Services, which the honourable member referred to, I

:24:29. > :24:32.can confirm the government has no plans for a statutory duty for these

:24:33. > :24:42.services to deal with flooding. We normally already respond to flooding

:24:43. > :24:45.under the Fire Services act. This is under the risk assessment and flood

:24:46. > :24:51.management plans. In the recent postal search incident, I would pay

:24:52. > :24:58.tribute to the fire authorities who don't involve themselves around the

:24:59. > :25:02.country. I saw the firefighters from Hampshire who went up to help those

:25:03. > :25:13.in Suffolk. That shows it is working well. They recognise the government

:25:14. > :25:18.are not intending moving on this, but that she axed accept the

:25:19. > :25:25.statistic that there has been eight 7000 reduction in firefighters in

:25:26. > :25:28.the past seven years alone. Does she not agree this is not a role the

:25:29. > :25:36.Fire Service has two legally carry out. Would she talk to colleagues in

:25:37. > :25:44.the Home Office to make sure that the numbers do not fall any further.

:25:45. > :25:50.We will have nobody to do the job. I know that in my own area there are

:25:51. > :26:04.fewer firefighters than there were some years ago. It is an opportunity

:26:05. > :26:09.to pay tribute to them. But I can assure him there have been

:26:10. > :26:14.conversations with the Home Office with regard to that. With regard to

:26:15. > :26:20.sustainable drainage, we do expect these new developments. In regard to

:26:21. > :26:27.elements about government, I would fly got the role of the regional

:26:28. > :26:30.coastal board. I think a lot is covered by that committee, which

:26:31. > :26:38.comprises a number of different stakeholders. With regard to

:26:39. > :26:46.insurance, which was raised by several members. The scheme has been

:26:47. > :26:56.a good success. But I understand what people are saying about

:26:57. > :27:03.business. I would as members to make businesses are weird of this. Being

:27:04. > :27:06.offered a quotation for specialist insurance, if they are still

:27:07. > :27:12.struggling, they should be made aware of it. It is something I want

:27:13. > :27:19.to look at in detail. But I am not going to be able to make promises

:27:20. > :27:28.today that we will have a scheme for businesses. FloodRe Is time-limited.

:27:29. > :27:43.We are looking to sheer resources around the country and it has, to

:27:44. > :27:49.some extent been extended. I visited the Calder Valley and saw that some

:27:50. > :28:07.businesses are moving. They are 200 yards. In my constituency, there is

:28:08. > :28:16.a development of 12 apartments. The cost is only ?30,000 because of the

:28:17. > :28:19.flooding. The image to be a market opportunity for insurance companies.

:28:20. > :28:24.I would be elated and she would look into this.

:28:25. > :28:32.The point of leasehold companies is they tend to be under freehold or

:28:33. > :28:37.management. But if I level friend wants to give me more details I will

:28:38. > :28:46.do that. Of course I will be delighted to meet the member for

:28:47. > :28:51.Castle Point. And it is good to have the role of emergency services

:28:52. > :28:54.pointed out. In regards to York, the Honourable member for York Central,

:28:55. > :28:59.hopefully I have answered some of her queries about this this is,

:29:00. > :29:08.maybe not to her satisfaction, but I would point out that FloodRe does

:29:09. > :29:13.not apply to businesses after 2009. In regards to the member for

:29:14. > :29:16.Dumfries Galloway, the statutory base of the flood management plan,

:29:17. > :29:20.we have that in this country as well, and in regards to the

:29:21. > :29:25.estimates procedure... I will not give way. In regards to that I'm

:29:26. > :29:33.sure he's aware of the enquiry under way. The member for Cockermouth will

:29:34. > :29:37.be aware the action plan was supported by local communities. I

:29:38. > :29:44.have met the Keswick Flood action group three times since becoming

:29:45. > :29:50.member for this area, and at times I have to admit I have in courage the

:29:51. > :29:52.Environment Agency to say a Little less conversation a little more

:29:53. > :29:59.action. It's important that we get on with these schemes, recognising

:30:00. > :30:02.we will not please everyone. People will be better protected than they

:30:03. > :30:05.were this time last year and this will continue right across the

:30:06. > :30:09.country, and so I commend the estimates in the name of Defra to be

:30:10. > :30:20.supported in the votes tomorrow night. I would just like to sum up

:30:21. > :30:23.in this debate. I welcome those last comments from the Minister that she

:30:24. > :30:28.asked the Environment Agency to talk less and do more, and I think that

:30:29. > :30:33.would be great. In fairness, I pay tribute to the work they have done

:30:34. > :30:36.throughout the floods we've had. But our report states we need to have

:30:37. > :30:41.action from top to bottom, and I would like to thank the member from

:30:42. > :30:47.Wakefield for the contributions for the audit committee, for the members

:30:48. > :30:52.of the audit committee of that were here today, the members of Defra

:30:53. > :30:56.that we hear today that have spoken and all other members, because

:30:57. > :30:59.flooding is so important to us. When it rains, people flood, businesses

:31:00. > :31:08.flood. We have to make sure every pound we spend, we spend well

:31:09. > :31:16.centrally and locally. Local people can do a lot more in alleviating

:31:17. > :31:19.floods. I look forward to working altogether in this house to deliver

:31:20. > :31:33.better flood protection in future. Thank you. Order, order. Stands over

:31:34. > :31:40.until seven o'clock tomorrow. Understanding order number 54. We

:31:41. > :31:47.now come to the motion on the supplementary estimate for that of

:31:48. > :31:56.health. I beg to move. The question is, as on the order paper. I call

:31:57. > :31:57.the children of the health select committee. Thank