28/02/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.the debate on intergenerational fairness, the whip to move the

:00:00. > :00:07.motion formerly. The question is as on the order paper. Mr Field. In

:00:08. > :00:14.some ways it could not be a better day to have this debate following

:00:15. > :00:18.the previous debate because it is graciously referred to by the

:00:19. > :00:23.previous debates and the leader of the chair of the business Select

:00:24. > :00:28.Committee, we get today an announcement from Sir Philip Green

:00:29. > :00:34.of part of a settlement that has to be made to bring justice both to BHS

:00:35. > :00:41.workers but also to the pensioners. It also showed how when to select

:00:42. > :00:48.committees work together, they can be more powerful than the sum of

:00:49. > :00:58.parts of each of the committees. I would only emphasise and continue to

:00:59. > :01:03.emphasise my very honourable friend emphasised that here is a first

:01:04. > :01:09.piece of the puzzle that has been put in place on pensions. We have

:01:10. > :01:15.not had a chance to read the small print, one hopes it is as good as

:01:16. > :01:23.the headline. There are a number of reports still outstanding which are

:01:24. > :01:27.from the Inland Revenue, which has arrested Dominic Chappel, the person

:01:28. > :01:33.that wisely or foolishly bought BHS for a pound, the liquidators report,

:01:34. > :01:38.the Serious Fraud Office report and the insolvency services report. The

:01:39. > :01:43.primers to has made plain she will not make -- the Prime minister has

:01:44. > :01:48.made plain she will not make any move on making a recommendation for

:01:49. > :01:52.the forfeiture committee to begin its work on considering whether Sir

:01:53. > :01:57.Philip should keep his knighthood until she has access to all those

:01:58. > :02:05.reports. An immensely sensible move to make and one that would expect

:02:06. > :02:10.from someone who is as careful as she is before making decisions like

:02:11. > :02:18.this but all that I would add is while we know that seeing justice

:02:19. > :02:22.through the rest of those reports, the revenue report, the Serious

:02:23. > :02:27.Fraud Office, the liquidators, the insolvency service is clearly in the

:02:28. > :02:35.longer run much more important than any knighthood. Sometimes in the

:02:36. > :02:38.country people look at the sacrament of changes which sum up the

:02:39. > :02:41.government has taken on board how horrendous they thought the BHS

:02:42. > :02:51.chaos was. I'm obviously not going to talk any

:02:52. > :02:55.more about that, Madam Deputy Speaker, because you have been kind

:02:56. > :03:02.that in me make a follow-up statement, on this of all days. One

:03:03. > :03:08.we follow a report, we have a debate from DWP. We are joining forces to

:03:09. > :03:12.look carefully at a longer term solution for pensioners, for

:03:13. > :03:18.workers, for what it means to public companies and a whole host of

:03:19. > :03:24.issues. We began that work together as two select committees and I'm

:03:25. > :03:30.pleased that the two debates have been joined together. We are using

:03:31. > :03:34.this privilege to occupy the Chamber of the House of Commons to debate

:03:35. > :03:39.our report on intergenerational fairness and I'm pleased to see a

:03:40. > :03:43.number of members of the select committee and others are here you

:03:44. > :03:51.will wish to make a contribution and if I keep disappearing to do some

:03:52. > :03:56.comments on Sir Philip Green, I hope I will be allowed leniency. Normally

:03:57. > :04:02.I would sit here for the whole three hours. What I was stressed by way of

:04:03. > :04:10.introduction as two points. One is that intergenerational fairness is a

:04:11. > :04:13.huge, huge topic. The problem in select committee or select

:04:14. > :04:18.committees join together is where do you actually begin on this topic to

:04:19. > :04:22.make sense of it? We have looked as a select committee and made

:04:23. > :04:27.recommendations to this house on the triple lock and that is going to be,

:04:28. > :04:30.of course, the main point of my debate, but I agree with people we

:04:31. > :04:37.could've started on other topics and looked at in the --

:04:38. > :04:43.intergenerational fairness from that aspect, but that is where we began

:04:44. > :04:47.our enquiries. I hope you understand, Madam Deputy Speaker, as

:04:48. > :04:52.my introductory speech and falls, you will see there are more

:04:53. > :04:57.immediate pressures for looking at this area than the art at other

:04:58. > :05:03.aspects of intergenerational fairness, but there are other

:05:04. > :05:06.aspects to consider. I am extremely grateful for him giving way so early

:05:07. > :05:12.in his speech and I would like to make a point at this point because

:05:13. > :05:16.does he not agree with me that at its absolute fundamental core there

:05:17. > :05:22.are people in our society who will succeed because they have assets,

:05:23. > :05:26.but if you are talent rich, but asset poor, it is by all likelihood

:05:27. > :05:38.unlikely that you will succeed in life, both in terms of educational

:05:39. > :05:43.attainment and health outcomes. We need to make sure everyone has the

:05:44. > :05:46.best our economy can deliver, whether you are born into assets or

:05:47. > :05:50.not. I could not agree with that Moore. He'll forgive me if I don't

:05:51. > :05:53.follow it up because I know my colleagues want to talk on those

:05:54. > :06:03.other aspects such as education and how that beers chilly-macro bears on

:06:04. > :06:14.-- and how that bears on the situation. I was struck between my

:06:15. > :06:19.life chances and people of my age when I set out to a living after

:06:20. > :06:24.university, the difference in the life chances and mine. When I

:06:25. > :06:31.graduated, I was one of 3% and people might say we can look at that

:06:32. > :06:38.and see which cohort you belong to, but it was a very privileged cohort.

:06:39. > :06:46.I went to university, I did not pay fees and one got a county

:06:47. > :06:51.scholarship to see us through university and we did not come away

:06:52. > :06:57.with debt. When we graduated, we interviewed big firms, as to whether

:06:58. > :07:02.we wish to work for them. The idea that graduates in that position now

:07:03. > :07:07.as they scramble for jobs, it is a very different world. I expected to

:07:08. > :07:13.get a job, I expected to own at least the house, if not more than

:07:14. > :07:17.one house. I expected to have savings, I expected to have a

:07:18. > :07:23.pension. One only has to look at how privileged my life has been compared

:07:24. > :07:33.with people in their 20s as they graduate today to realise that the

:07:34. > :07:37.wheel of Fortune has turned and whatever one wants to say about the

:07:38. > :07:41.golden oldies, we are in a very privileged position and that

:07:42. > :07:45.privilege has been reinforced by the government, a point that I will come

:07:46. > :07:51.back to in a moment. But the second of the issues I wanted to raise by

:07:52. > :07:55.way of introduction, because as a committee we wanted to look at the

:07:56. > :07:59.triple lock. We wanted to test it, whether it was viable for the next

:08:00. > :08:08.Parliament and beyond and if it wasn't, could we marshal a report on

:08:09. > :08:11.which everything was reviewed and where political parties go slowly

:08:12. > :08:17.moved before they make decisions about what they are going to stand

:08:18. > :08:21.for in the election and possibly 2020, in other words, we see our

:08:22. > :08:27.role now as a select committee of taking on controversial topics,

:08:28. > :08:33.letting government and opposition judge for themselves what nuclear

:08:34. > :08:37.warfare is employed against us and if we are still standing, maybe

:08:38. > :08:48.governments can be perhaps a little bit more raised than they would have

:08:49. > :08:53.been. That is not to say that there are not a number of very poor

:08:54. > :08:58.constituents in all of our constituencies, but the position of

:08:59. > :09:06.pension policy has been transformed over the past ten, 15 years, and

:09:07. > :09:10.that was done by Gordon Brown's pension credit and done by the

:09:11. > :09:17.coalition government's triple lock. Whereas if we were having a debate

:09:18. > :09:22.ten years ago, talking about not making moves to benefit the vast

:09:23. > :09:27.majority of pensioners, one will be laughed out of court. Now the debate

:09:28. > :09:31.has significantly changed and why it has changed and why you want to get

:09:32. > :09:36.onto the main part of that debate now, I don't want anybody to think

:09:37. > :09:41.that we have not got to rack our brains in thinking how can we

:09:42. > :09:47.sensitively but equally effectively ensure that we continue to deal with

:09:48. > :09:51.those pensioners who are poor because you don't have to be a very

:09:52. > :09:57.bright member of Parliament to know all of us have some very poor

:09:58. > :10:00.pensioners, but we also have now a growing number of rich pensioners,

:10:01. > :10:07.thank God. It's again that background that we consider the

:10:08. > :10:14.whole business about the triple lock. There are, it seems to me, for

:10:15. > :10:21.Wes government can deal with this issue. It can in the first place

:10:22. > :10:29.ignore it and just let the public finances let rip and depend on the

:10:30. > :10:33.international money markets to come up and the ever shovel off loans at

:10:34. > :10:39.very low rates of interest so that we can continue right into the

:10:40. > :10:45.sunset to live beyond our means. I don't think for a minute that the

:10:46. > :10:50.very low historic interest rates we have at the moment are going to last

:10:51. > :10:58.that long, let alone to have a government that was deciding that we

:10:59. > :11:02.would have the next Parliament committed to the triple lock. I just

:11:03. > :11:09.don't see that our public finances will be secure unless governments

:11:10. > :11:14.take a deep breath and think very carefully about our report. I also

:11:15. > :11:20.make a plea to our front bench, the Labour front bench. People are

:11:21. > :11:27.saying now it is impossible to see another Labour government then

:11:28. > :11:31.everybody's life time, but funnier things have happened this year,

:11:32. > :11:34.funnier than the election of a Labour government, so I wouldn't

:11:35. > :11:42.actually bank on Labour being unelectable. The problem we don't

:11:43. > :11:49.have two as a party to consider how fiscally responsible we have to be

:11:50. > :11:53.that election. The second way of dealing with not tackling the triple

:11:54. > :11:58.lock would be to say we're going to increase taxation. If we go down

:11:59. > :12:02.that route, we need to raise the same amount of money that we would

:12:03. > :12:13.have to raise if we were going to borrow it. By 2060, we are talking

:12:14. > :12:19.about raising in today's money and additional ?40 billion. That's half

:12:20. > :12:23.the sum that we raise from income tax. Were talking about were going

:12:24. > :12:27.to go to the country and say, we want to be elected, we expect to be

:12:28. > :12:33.continuously elected on a bases that we are going to put your income tax

:12:34. > :12:39.up by 50%. I just don't think that is a position we will be able to

:12:40. > :12:46.hold very long and indeed, when we look at the marginal tax rates, not

:12:47. > :12:50.the rich, but the working poor pay in drawing benefits and losing

:12:51. > :12:54.benefits as they work harder, the idea of putting 10p on the standard

:12:55. > :13:03.rate of tax, it seems so observed that hardly -- that there is hardly

:13:04. > :13:06.any point in suggesting it, but it's the second way we can square the

:13:07. > :13:14.circle in keeping the triple lock. The third one is to continue the

:13:15. > :13:17.policy that this government and previous governments have done a man

:13:18. > :13:22.is to favour pensioners and reduce the living standards of the working

:13:23. > :13:26.population. I do not think that is tenable. I don't believe it is

:13:27. > :13:32.tenable now, but that is what will happen until the end of Parliament,

:13:33. > :13:36.certainly not beyond that because we are taking resources from the

:13:37. > :13:40.working population and giving it to many pensioners who are well off.

:13:41. > :13:43.Again I emphasise because people sometimes want to hear what they

:13:44. > :13:49.want to hear rather than what is being said, I'm not denying that

:13:50. > :13:52.there are too many poor pensioners, but the vast majority of pensioners

:13:53. > :13:56.now have a standard of living of the kind that we have not experienced

:13:57. > :14:02.for the pensioner population before and thank God we have got that. But

:14:03. > :14:10.the reduction in living standards for the working poor is beginning to

:14:11. > :14:14.already show that some people of working age are reduced to

:14:15. > :14:21.destitution. Thank you for giving way. On that point, one of the most

:14:22. > :14:25.heartbreaking aspects of this is that 73% of working parents already

:14:26. > :14:28.go without a meal during the school holidays the feed their children. Is

:14:29. > :14:34.that not an indictment on exactly where we're going wrong right now is

:14:35. > :14:37.a country and society? It is and it could not be better timed because

:14:38. > :14:42.those of you who followed very closely the Archbishop of

:14:43. > :14:49.Canterbury's Christmas message, it gave one example of feeding

:14:50. > :14:53.Birkenhead where a family were laying their child into one of the

:14:54. > :14:57.waste bins of the supermarket to scavenge for food and then rescuing

:14:58. > :15:03.the child out to see what food they had. Nabis mother is suffering from

:15:04. > :15:07.cancer. She is now fed by feeding Birkenhead on food that would

:15:08. > :15:14.otherwise go to the tip. But she says she has never been fed. Is this

:15:15. > :15:26.House prepared to continue policies that put pressure on working aged

:15:27. > :15:30.families to the situation that one being an exceptional comment, but

:15:31. > :15:36.one more and more of us will be troubled with in our constituencies

:15:37. > :15:41.as we see people not feeding themselves, as the honourable lady

:15:42. > :15:47.stated, but much more regularly than just in the school holidays. There

:15:48. > :15:56.is a question of destitution. I'll happily give way. I agree with the

:15:57. > :16:00.argument he is developing, but what he is suggesting will be politically

:16:01. > :16:05.unpalatable. Does he agree that since the majority of health care

:16:06. > :16:10.costs we generate in the extremes of our lives, one way or selling this

:16:11. > :16:18.to be population, particularly to those principally in the frame, that

:16:19. > :16:25.is to say pensioners, it's to say that the 2.5% on the triple lock

:16:26. > :16:30.might be hypothecated to the National Health Service and in that

:16:31. > :16:35.way gained some level of acceptance from pensioners? Again, I couldn't

:16:36. > :16:39.agree more, but I didn't want to fan out the debate. I want as much as

:16:40. > :16:45.possible to keep it tight so we might get some agreement. These are

:16:46. > :16:49.proper options that might be considered. There is no way, sadly,

:16:50. > :16:56.that we as pensioners can get all the goodies and considering other

:16:57. > :17:01.people wallpaper options for us. We need to look at how we will

:17:02. > :17:06.integrate care into the NHS is an issue that will grow and grow in

:17:07. > :17:11.importance as each month passes of this Parliament. The fourth way we

:17:12. > :17:16.could deal with keeping the triple lock would be to continuously raise

:17:17. > :17:31.the retirement age, and again here I make a plea to our front bench is --

:17:32. > :17:38.benches, this will adversely affect our constituents more than any other

:17:39. > :17:41.policy. The select committee has published those constituencies where

:17:42. > :17:46.the average life expectancy for males will be such that they simply

:17:47. > :17:52.won't reach retirement age if we square the books by saying we will

:17:53. > :17:56.increase the retirement age from the expected 68 that it will rise to up

:17:57. > :18:08.to 70, 70 one. My Right Honourable friend from

:18:09. > :18:18.Oldham and Saddleworth and my constituents have commonality here.

:18:19. > :18:24.We thank God that role man on average will receive that pension if

:18:25. > :18:30.we raise the retirement age to 71, but we do know that swathes of our

:18:31. > :18:38.poorer, older constituents won't actually reach the retirement line.

:18:39. > :18:42.The point in which they pick up the state retirement pension. They

:18:43. > :18:45.simply will have died. So the four options that we have to consider

:18:46. > :18:55.our, Madam Deputy Speaker, just simply not worry at all... Before I

:18:56. > :18:59.start, why not. As usual, the Right Honourable gentleman is making an

:19:00. > :19:03.excellent and well conceived speech. Surely, though, there is a case to

:19:04. > :19:09.be made, given that average life expectancy has increased from 71 in

:19:10. > :19:15.1960 281 now and 9.9 million people over 50 are working.

:19:16. > :19:18.Notwithstanding, it is different for very heavy, industrial work which

:19:19. > :19:22.killed a lot of people shortly after they retired that people do want to

:19:23. > :19:27.work longer and they want to exercise that choice.

:19:28. > :19:31.Notwithstanding what he has said. I wouldn't for a moment- look at me-

:19:32. > :19:36.say that people over state retirement age will not be allowed

:19:37. > :19:40.to work. Far be it. But there is a difference between people who have

:19:41. > :19:45.had a job like I have not had, who are just simply worn out by the cost

:19:46. > :19:50.of those jobs in factories and elsewhere, who are not going to make

:19:51. > :19:53.it to be finishing line if we keep extending the finishing line, and

:19:54. > :19:59.therefore I am making a plea today not to go down the route. We can

:20:00. > :20:04.keep the triple lock but if we just keep raising the retirement age,

:20:05. > :20:10.fewer people will drop the state pension and balance it. That was one

:20:11. > :20:15.of the alternatives. The second one was just to continue putting all the

:20:16. > :20:19.weight, all the costs, onto people of working age, and I made a plea

:20:20. > :20:24.why we should not do that. The other is to think that we can just tax and

:20:25. > :20:30.tax gain, and I simply do not think governments can get elected on the

:20:31. > :20:37.basis of putting up income tax by 50% over a number of Parliament and

:20:38. > :20:45.expect to be elected. I do not think any party that wishes to be elected

:20:46. > :20:50.can let borrowing blip to the effect that we would have to let it rip to

:20:51. > :20:53.balance the books and keep the triple lock. I therefore make this

:20:54. > :20:56.plea, but to Government and the opposition, to look carefully at

:20:57. > :21:02.what the Select Committee has proposed. It proposes a double lock

:21:03. > :21:10.and also by 2020 the effects of pension credit and the coalition's

:21:11. > :21:17.Government, the triple lock, have already but will continue to raise

:21:18. > :21:22.the value of the state retirement pension is against average earnings

:21:23. > :21:28.to a historic high level. And the Select Committee report says, at

:21:29. > :21:32.that point, we should take the state pension is against earnings at that

:21:33. > :21:41.level. And that we should have a double lock, and we should also

:21:42. > :21:44.ensure that it never, ever, from that day forward, falls against

:21:45. > :21:48.average earnings, but there will be in the very short run may be a

:21:49. > :21:54.period when prices exceed earnings but we should therefore honour the

:21:55. > :21:59.prices link at the same time. But then bring it back to the earnings

:22:00. > :22:05.link as soon as possible. In that way, many of the terrible scenarios

:22:06. > :22:08.that I have been painting we don't actually have to go down. But also,

:22:09. > :22:14.as my honourable friend from Stokes said, the policy that we have had

:22:15. > :22:18.and which has been borne by people of working age in this country, that

:22:19. > :22:23.we can continue to take money from this group, and particularly those

:22:24. > :22:28.who now already find it difficult to put food on the table at every meal

:22:29. > :22:32.for their children in the way that we knew when we were growing up and

:22:33. > :22:39.were fed by our parents. That is not a policy that we are going to

:22:40. > :22:42.pursue. It is on that basis that I am betting both sides that if they

:22:43. > :22:49.came here with a script today saying they will reject the Select

:22:50. > :22:51.Committee report, I would like to encourage them to enter into

:22:52. > :22:57.discussions more widely with the House of Commons about how we can

:22:58. > :23:00.guarantee that the standard of living against earnings that the

:23:01. > :23:07.pensioners will have in 2020 to make sure it is never a road it, but this

:23:08. > :23:12.policy of making increases at the expense of the working population

:23:13. > :23:22.will cease and that we all put that programme to the electorate when

:23:23. > :23:25.that general election comes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is

:23:26. > :23:28.a real pleasure to follow the honourable member for Birkenhead,

:23:29. > :23:31.widely respected, thoughtful comments. Sometimes difficult for

:23:32. > :23:34.the Government, sometimes difficult for the opposition, but always

:23:35. > :23:38.comments that we should all take heed of and listen very, very

:23:39. > :23:43.carefully. This debate nearly passed me by until I saw a quote within the

:23:44. > :23:51.report which said an economy that is skewed towards baby boomers and

:23:52. > :23:55.against millenials, and it panicked me, because we all have our all --

:23:56. > :23:59.own calling into politics and I went to one of the schools at the bottom

:24:00. > :24:02.of the league tables in Kidderminster. My father died at an

:24:03. > :24:06.early age and many of my friends did not fulfil their potential and I was

:24:07. > :24:10.driven that everybody can be successful, is given the right

:24:11. > :24:15.opportunity, if equipped with the right skills, sometimes the right

:24:16. > :24:19.lock, and the right support, the right direction, and all too many

:24:20. > :24:23.people, very, very good friends of mine did not take that path and have

:24:24. > :24:26.missed out. It is bad for them and bad for the economy and it is bad

:24:27. > :24:33.for society. And I looked at this quote and I worried because, to me,

:24:34. > :24:36.it was one versus the other rather than the core principle that we have

:24:37. > :24:40.a duty to do our very best by everybody. And I know a lot of

:24:41. > :24:46.people will focus their comments on the triple lock - is it right? Are

:24:47. > :24:50.we doing too much for pensioners? Should we be doing it in a different

:24:51. > :24:54.way? And I would just gently say that I was to focus my comments on

:24:55. > :24:59.younger generation and that I think we all did welcome the triple lock.

:25:00. > :25:01.It had been for a long time that we had underserved those who had worked

:25:02. > :25:06.hard all of their life and I would urge caution that once you get to

:25:07. > :25:12.the age to get your pension, you are limited with your opportunities to

:25:13. > :25:16.change your circumstances. You have either fulfilled your potential,

:25:17. > :25:18.there is not really much more opportunity to do that, and

:25:19. > :25:20.therefore you have reached that finish line and I know the

:25:21. > :25:25.honourable member for Birkenhead talked about that finishing line and

:25:26. > :25:28.we do have to respect that therefore their incomes are predominately

:25:29. > :25:40.fixed and we have to do our best by them. I'm very honourable -- battle

:25:41. > :25:46.for giving way. -- thankful. Does he share a concern that we must not

:25:47. > :25:50.allow our thoughts to be coloured by pensioners retiring right now, that

:25:51. > :25:54.ten or 15 years from now benefit schemes will be gone and people will

:25:55. > :26:00.be in a much worse position than those who are retiring next year? I

:26:01. > :26:03.thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. I am thankful that we

:26:04. > :26:11.have a fantastic pensions minister who will respond to that point. But

:26:12. > :26:16.the broader point is, as I now turn to the opportunities for younger

:26:17. > :26:22.people is we all collectively have a responsibility, as a Government, as

:26:23. > :26:25.oppositions, to recognise that we have a habit of spending more money

:26:26. > :26:29.than the tax revenue that we get in. I think since the Second World War

:26:30. > :26:32.there has only been six years with the Government of the date have

:26:33. > :26:36.spent less money than they have collected. And what that really

:26:37. > :26:40.means, in plain English, is we, as that generation of that year, wish

:26:41. > :26:44.to have more than we can afford and we would like our children, or maybe

:26:45. > :26:47.our children's children, to then pay for the privilege of that. And that

:26:48. > :26:56.is all governments because that has affected everybody by these six

:26:57. > :27:00.years. And we have a duty, a moral duty, a responsibility to future

:27:01. > :27:06.generations, to not always take that easy decision. I was doing a radio

:27:07. > :27:08.interview yesterday, on a relatively contentious issue, and it was

:27:09. > :27:12.talking about the additional costs that the Government might wish to

:27:13. > :27:16.spear, and there was another MP and he said if I was the Minister I

:27:17. > :27:20.wouldn't have taken the hit. But the key was it was not they had that

:27:21. > :27:23.would have taken the hit. It is everybody. And as we are already

:27:24. > :27:26.spending more money than we are collecting in, what they are really

:27:27. > :27:29.saying is I will pass that on as well to the next generation, and we

:27:30. > :27:32.all know that and we would like to be able to balance the books

:27:33. > :27:38.immediately but also we have a very long list of her own personal

:27:39. > :27:40.priorities, our inboxes are full of helpful requests from residents on

:27:41. > :27:44.where we could spend more money on them and many of those are very,

:27:45. > :27:48.very important, and there is always a balance, but I just wanted to

:27:49. > :27:51.generally remind the house we should not lose sight of the fact that if

:27:52. > :27:53.we wish to give the very best opportunities to the next

:27:54. > :28:00.generations, we need to not saddle them with too much of our

:28:01. > :28:05.overspending. I am inherently a very positive person, and I believe that

:28:06. > :28:08.if we do equip people, we do give people that opportunity, they will

:28:09. > :28:12.seize it with both hands and they will make a huge success. So I am

:28:13. > :28:18.greatly encouraged that our Government has delivered 1.8 million

:28:19. > :28:22.more outstanding school places. And as I said, as somebody who went to a

:28:23. > :28:24.school at the bottom of the league tables, I understand that importance

:28:25. > :28:29.of equipping people with those skills going forward, and in my

:28:30. > :28:32.constituency in Swindon we have had a difficult Ofsted report recently

:28:33. > :28:36.and we got fantastic teachers who are all trying their very best in

:28:37. > :28:40.Swindon, we have secured extra funding for schools. But we're not

:28:41. > :28:44.quite there yet. And we all, the Government, MPs, the council,

:28:45. > :28:48.schools collectively, the parents, we all have to look and see what

:28:49. > :28:54.more can be done. And I am encouraged that the school ministers

:28:55. > :28:57.visited two of my local schools recently, both transforming the

:28:58. > :29:02.opportunities for their children, both coming from not so long ago

:29:03. > :29:05.very difficult and very poor ratings, frankly failing the

:29:06. > :29:10.children that were relying on them to equip them and they are both

:29:11. > :29:15.transformed their ratings to strong leadership and I am delighted that

:29:16. > :29:20.yesterday Ofsted confirmed that one of those schools had moved too good

:29:21. > :29:22.in all categories, and I paid credit to Mr Martin, the headteacher and

:29:23. > :29:25.all of his staff who have worked incredibly hard to do that. And this

:29:26. > :29:31.is the fundamental building block to equip young people to then take on

:29:32. > :29:35.life. But I am also a huge fan of the National citizens service. This

:29:36. > :29:40.is a new initiative that is being brought forward that in effect gives

:29:41. > :29:43.young adults pose real, tangible life skills, and every summer,

:29:44. > :29:48.without fail, I go and visit every single stage of the 3-4 week

:29:49. > :29:54.programme, where they take a random collection of young people, and it

:29:55. > :29:58.is about ?1500 worth of activities were they all go away for a weekend

:29:59. > :30:02.to learn team-building skills, they will then come back, they will form

:30:03. > :30:07.teams were they will choose a charity, they will learn about the

:30:08. > :30:10.charity, they will then organise entrepreneurial activities to fund

:30:11. > :30:14.raise for that charity. They will go and volunteer at the charity to see

:30:15. > :30:18.at first hand. They will have to do presentation skills and haggling and

:30:19. > :30:23.engaging. And at the end of the day, they then graduate as these

:30:24. > :30:27.students. And there is an incredible transformation in all of those young

:30:28. > :30:30.adults, who have arrived, well educated by the schools, but perhaps

:30:31. > :30:35.not quite ready for the workplace. And as somebody who run their own

:30:36. > :30:39.business for ten years and employed a lot of young people to see the

:30:40. > :30:42.huge difference in those young adults who had taken the time over

:30:43. > :30:45.there summer holiday where it is very tempting to do many other less

:30:46. > :30:49.constructive things over the summer, to go and do that, to go and engage,

:30:50. > :30:53.and they have given themselves the very best opportunity when entering

:30:54. > :30:59.into the workplace. We have continued to see university numbers

:31:00. > :31:05.increase, but likely, rightly, the Government has put a huge emphasis

:31:06. > :31:08.on apprenticeships. Because for generations, governments and

:31:09. > :31:13.opposition parties, we had an arms race on students going to

:31:14. > :31:17.university, every general election, we have sent 25%, we will do 45%, we

:31:18. > :31:23.will break the 50%. And what we have to do is make sure everybody and

:31:24. > :31:29.everybody has got a talent. I look at, say, David Beckham will stop not

:31:30. > :31:33.renowned for being academic. But he has a gift that has earned more

:31:34. > :31:36.money in a week than probably the majority of people in society will

:31:37. > :31:39.earn at any point. And it was because somebody recognise that

:31:40. > :31:44.skill and they allowed him to develop that. We all have a skill. I

:31:45. > :31:47.am sure... Sometimes, actually, every time I failed to make it on

:31:48. > :31:51.the sports teams, I wondered whether I did not have a talent and perhaps

:31:52. > :31:55.that is why I am here, but everybody has a talent and the apprenticeships

:31:56. > :31:59.rightly recognise this to workplace learning you can provide people with

:32:00. > :32:03.real, tangible skills. With a fantastic opportunity to secure a

:32:04. > :32:07.long-term career and good career prospects. But also vital for our

:32:08. > :32:14.growing economy, particularly where we have those skills gaps. At the

:32:15. > :32:17.last Parliament, we had the commitment of a target. And it will

:32:18. > :32:21.be tough to get there, but likely, you need those challenging targets,

:32:22. > :32:24.and I expect, and I'm sure all members of this house have spent a

:32:25. > :32:30.lot of time is meeting with those young apprentices doing advanced

:32:31. > :32:35.engineering, computing, all of these things, brilliant, brilliant

:32:36. > :32:40.careers. And they will all go on and be a huge success and across the

:32:41. > :32:43.economy this Government has now delivered a record 2.7 million

:32:44. > :32:48.people more in work than when we came to office in 2010. And this is

:32:49. > :32:51.not just London or the South East, which we have seen in previous

:32:52. > :32:56.strong economic performances, it isn't every single region of the

:32:57. > :33:00.country. My own town of Swindon, 8400 more people are in work. That

:33:01. > :33:06.is greater than the number who are currently going on a weekly basis to

:33:07. > :33:09.seek Swindon fighting their relegation battle, and thankfully we

:33:10. > :33:17.have got a bit closer with our victory at the weekend. We now have

:33:18. > :33:25.860,000 fewer workless households and youth unemployment is lower. In

:33:26. > :33:29.Swindon, it is down to 69.2% since 2010 among young people. That is a

:33:30. > :33:33.fantastic achievement. Rightly, the Government has introduced the

:33:34. > :33:38.National Living Wage, looking at a wage of around about ?9 by 2020,

:33:39. > :33:42.helping 6 million of the lowest earners have a pay rise, sharing in

:33:43. > :33:47.the proceeds of the strong economic growth that we have delivered.

:33:48. > :33:55.The increases in the personal tax threshold has taken millions of the

:33:56. > :34:04.lowest earners out of paying any tax at all. The index link will make

:34:05. > :34:08.sure the lowest earners will never return to a point of paying tax

:34:09. > :34:13.again. My honourable friend is making an excellent speech based on

:34:14. > :34:18.his expertise as a former minister. We share something in common in that

:34:19. > :34:29.our towns and cities, Swindon and Peterborough, are the two largest

:34:30. > :34:34.places in the UK without a university. Does he agree with me it

:34:35. > :34:38.is important we build on Apprentices with university technical colleges,

:34:39. > :34:44.so that young people not of an academic bent can be persuaded to

:34:45. > :34:50.person of vocational education, so important for the future economy?

:34:51. > :34:55.Thank you for the powerful intervention. A real champion of his

:34:56. > :35:00.constituency. Regarding universities, in my constituency, we

:35:01. > :35:04.benefit from having a huge influx of graduates. The network of local

:35:05. > :35:09.universities within striking distance of Swindon. Which is why we

:35:10. > :35:15.see such strong economic growth. He is right to highlight the importance

:35:16. > :35:20.of technical colleges. We had one of the first one is open in Swindon, a

:35:21. > :35:25.?10 million facility. It had teething problems, but the principle

:35:26. > :35:30.is fantastic. It has identifying those who ultimately would be doing

:35:31. > :35:34.advanced engineering work, technical work, and allowing them to work with

:35:35. > :35:39.local businesses who will help shape that curriculum. That means they

:35:40. > :35:43.will have the best chance of having a career at the end of it. The

:35:44. > :35:47.challenge with university technical colleges is how you attract the very

:35:48. > :35:53.best and most able students for that type of education at 14. Not

:35:54. > :35:58.unsurprisingly, schools, and they are all judged by league tables, are

:35:59. > :36:01.not always brilliantly keen to encourage their most able students

:36:02. > :36:09.to transfer because it will have a detrimental effect on their league

:36:10. > :36:12.tables. I would urge the schools minister to consider having a dual

:36:13. > :36:15.score going into the league table with the student still remains

:36:16. > :36:26.attributed to the original school and lettuce share with the UTC.

:36:27. > :36:30.Therefore there would be the opportunity for them to say they are

:36:31. > :36:36.doing great but they can't do better. It is making a huge

:36:37. > :36:41.difference. Not everybody has that opportunity to walk straight into

:36:42. > :36:47.work. And therefore, as a society, we have a duty to ensure our job

:36:48. > :36:55.centre network is at its most able to support people. Asked I wasn't

:36:56. > :36:59.the Minister responsible during my time in DWP, we had joint meetings

:37:00. > :37:04.and I got very excited about the need to refresh our job centre

:37:05. > :37:07.network. I have been on a number of visits and I was fundamentally

:37:08. > :37:13.depressed when I saw the 1970s concrete structures, the security

:37:14. > :37:17.guard who understandably is needed, but imagine you're going to a job

:37:18. > :37:25.centre and almost certainly nervous and to be greeted by a security

:37:26. > :37:27.guard, bleak surroundings, not celebrating successes, not

:37:28. > :37:31.highlighting the people of gone through the same challenges you know

:37:32. > :37:39.you how to overcome and they have similar circumstances to you, they

:37:40. > :37:46.haven't celebrated that. I went to a community hub. A number of people

:37:47. > :37:51.who are far away from entering the workplace. Bright colours, great

:37:52. > :37:54.furniture. The security guards had a different uniform so he was a

:37:55. > :38:00.welcome. As soon as you arrived, you were made to feel special and

:38:01. > :38:04.congratulated. You were taking that step and he was there to be your

:38:05. > :38:08.anchor through that process. A real hub of activity. I could see nervous

:38:09. > :38:13.people coming into this building and as soon as they met with him, they

:38:14. > :38:17.were at ease and the entered into that process and were keen to

:38:18. > :38:20.engage, keen to fulfil their potential. I'm delighted the

:38:21. > :38:25.government has ruled this out and I went on a visit to the Swindon job

:38:26. > :38:32.centre a few weeks back. I wasn't sure what to expect. I was greeted

:38:33. > :38:37.by senior staff. This was the first thing they were most excited to tell

:38:38. > :38:41.me about. The only have a budget of ?3000. They painted the walls,

:38:42. > :38:50.change the furniture, change the entrance, provided work stations for

:38:51. > :38:55.independent work on computers. The staff were so excited. It

:38:56. > :38:59.transformed morale, it transformed the engagement from the people they

:39:00. > :39:06.were looking to work with. They were then keen to talk to me about the

:39:07. > :39:12.different universal credit is making. Simplifying complex benefits

:39:13. > :39:17.method. 167 benefits and you needed to be a nuclear physicist to work

:39:18. > :39:21.out what people were or were not entitled to. We would discover our

:39:22. > :39:25.constituents because of a complex system were missing out on support

:39:26. > :39:30.it should've been entitled to. Everybody supports the principle of

:39:31. > :39:33.a simplified single benefit through universal credit that has the

:39:34. > :39:40.benefit you will always be better off the more you work. Removing the

:39:41. > :39:48.ridiculous 16 hour cliff edge that stop people progressing from

:39:49. > :39:52.part-time to full-time work. Crucially, for the first time,

:39:53. > :39:56.through the real-time technology, allowing people with fluctuating

:39:57. > :40:00.health conditions to have a minimum income. As a health condition goes

:40:01. > :40:05.up and down, the system automatically kicks in, rather than

:40:06. > :40:08.having to constantly reapply, going through confiscated bureaucracy when

:40:09. > :40:12.you want to deal with health challenges, dealing with remaining

:40:13. > :40:16.in work and progressing in work. I'm really excited about the simple

:40:17. > :40:21.things that make the biggest difference. For the first time, we

:40:22. > :40:25.have a named work coach. This makes a huge difference because as you

:40:26. > :40:30.arrive there, you're not just looking for work, you have a number

:40:31. > :40:36.of other challenges you may wish to navigate. It could be getting

:40:37. > :40:41.childcare, additional training, the diary to help with getting to work.

:40:42. > :40:45.Giving you significantly more time to concentrate on actually looking

:40:46. > :40:50.for the work that you would like. But also for the first time ever

:40:51. > :40:54.this named work coach will stay with you when you enter into work. And

:40:55. > :41:00.this will make a huge difference. Many others, if we look back in our

:41:01. > :41:05.own careers, were probably driven mostly by our parents encouraging us

:41:06. > :41:10.to progress. Encourage owners not to be complacent and to push ourselves.

:41:11. > :41:17.That isn't given in life. A lot of people, and I saw this again, they

:41:18. > :41:20.had no interest in going to work. It was a shame because they were

:41:21. > :41:23.brilliant people and with the right encouragement he could've made a

:41:24. > :41:27.huge success of themselves. So often you will see people who have been

:41:28. > :41:33.out of work for a long period of time will enter into work at the

:41:34. > :41:38.lowest wage. And sometimes those people will then stagnate there and

:41:39. > :41:43.not have the confidence to kick on to higher levels. An example would

:41:44. > :41:48.be, I've been out of work for a long period of time and has secured work

:41:49. > :41:53.at a supermarket. I'm determined to make this success. I turn up every

:41:54. > :41:59.day and work diligently. I stay there are. Now the named work coach

:42:00. > :42:05.would ask me how I was doing. For three months, I've worked as hard as

:42:06. > :42:10.I possibly can. Names work coach might say, have you thought about

:42:11. > :42:14.asking to become the supervisor? I'm too shy. The named work coach with

:42:15. > :42:20.top to the managers in the store and ask if they would now be ready.

:42:21. > :42:25.Therefore, they help you progress within the workplace. It is great we

:42:26. > :42:30.have 2.7 million people more in work and we have introduced the national

:42:31. > :42:37.living wage to help the lowest earners get a pay rise. As we move

:42:38. > :42:42.closer to full structural employment, we need to ensure not

:42:43. > :42:48.everybody can get a job but fulfil their potential. By working hard,

:42:49. > :42:57.they can progress. Coming back to the subject of the debate today on

:42:58. > :43:02.into -- intergenerational fairness, in terms of those who are due a

:43:03. > :43:08.pension, does he agree that one of the key issues is not only

:43:09. > :43:15.intergenerational fairness, but fairness between those who run

:43:16. > :43:24.companies and those who pay into a pension scheme? The news today was

:43:25. > :43:31.very welcome. I thank him for his intervention. I'm always at a loss

:43:32. > :43:36.as to why he is not a minister. One of our most able MPs. In the debate

:43:37. > :43:40.I have attended, he is so thoughtful. I had a brilliant time

:43:41. > :43:46.as a minister seeing the great work he had done to help promote

:43:47. > :43:51.Apprentices I head off when it became very fashionable and we

:43:52. > :43:57.started campaigning. Rightly his intervention highlights those

:43:58. > :44:03.opportunities. I understand responsibility to staff in terms of

:44:04. > :44:10.pensions and career progression. As ever, a powerful point. Would you

:44:11. > :44:16.agree with me that it is so important that we have done

:44:17. > :44:21.everything we can to remove the badge of shame in the way we have

:44:22. > :44:25.treated disabled people who want to work? And the disability confident

:44:26. > :44:31.programme which he was very much involved with at the DWP has grown

:44:32. > :44:38.from strength to strength, so that more disabled people who should not

:44:39. > :44:43.be in the shadows are able to fulfil their potential in the employment

:44:44. > :44:50.market? I thank him and I know he supports that campaign. That's my

:44:51. > :44:59.final part. The last thing that the staff at the job centre highlighted

:45:00. > :45:03.was the great initiative of the school advisers, starting to

:45:04. > :45:08.identify those who needed help at an earlier stage, readying them further

:45:09. > :45:11.final day in education to have a smooth transition. They were very

:45:12. > :45:15.excited about the early stages of that. I'm delighted the small

:45:16. > :45:20.employment offer, a pilot I introduced, is making a real

:45:21. > :45:26.difference in getting more businesses to engage directly with

:45:27. > :45:38.job centres to create more potential vacancies. In conclusion, it would

:45:39. > :45:44.be a miss for me not to discuss the increased opportunities for disabled

:45:45. > :45:50.people. I was always looking for good ideas when I was the Minister

:45:51. > :45:54.in charge of this. The most enthusiastic and engage people I

:45:55. > :45:59.spoke to were young disabled people who wanted to have exactly the same

:46:00. > :46:07.chances and opportunities as their friends. Highly talented and highly

:46:08. > :46:11.educated young people. Not all employers had the confidence to

:46:12. > :46:14.consider offering them an opportunity. Nearly always, an

:46:15. > :46:23.employer would need to make a relatively small change and they

:46:24. > :46:32.would benefit. As an employer, I employed someone with a disability

:46:33. > :46:36.and it need a huge difference. These are real opportunities predominantly

:46:37. > :46:41.for the younger generation and I welcome this report and urge

:46:42. > :46:45.everyone to remember it is not them versus us, it is we have a duty to

:46:46. > :46:54.do our best for all ages and I hope the government will look into the

:46:55. > :46:58.good work in this area. Order. This afternoon, I suggested members

:46:59. > :47:02.should limit the time of their speeches because it appeared to me

:47:03. > :47:07.we had plenty of time given the number of people who indicated they

:47:08. > :47:10.wished to speak. Such as the interest in the debate now, there

:47:11. > :47:14.are more people who are indicating they wish to speak than there were

:47:15. > :47:20.an hour ago. I think they must have been prompted by the last two

:47:21. > :47:25.excellent speeches. As a result of which, I would now ask members

:47:26. > :47:29.please to take ten minutes or less. That would be very helpful and would

:47:30. > :47:33.allow everybody the opportunity to speak before the end of the debate.

:47:34. > :47:42.Marion Fellows. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It

:47:43. > :47:45.is a pleasure to follow the gentleman. The report of the work

:47:46. > :47:47.and pensions committee under the chairmanship of the Right Honourable

:47:48. > :47:53.member for Birkenhead on intergenerational fairness... I will

:47:54. > :47:57.try to get that out again. Which we are debating today, raises some very

:47:58. > :48:04.interesting points. The UK Government has built an autonomy

:48:05. > :48:08.that offers no long-term security for future generations. The Scottish

:48:09. > :48:13.National party's vision of economic development is, however, built on

:48:14. > :48:17.the idea of inclusive growth based on equal opportunities, a fair and

:48:18. > :48:21.inclusive job market, and safe and secure future for the younger

:48:22. > :48:27.generation. Madame Jeopardy Speaker, I know you will find it hard to

:48:28. > :48:33.believe that I am not a millenials. Apparently, I am a baby boomer.

:48:34. > :48:36.Because it will be more authentic, I will use personal examples, either

:48:37. > :48:41.what has happened to me or to others of my generation I am familiar with.

:48:42. > :48:45.According to the report, my fellow pensioners and I are in danger of

:48:46. > :48:50.breaking the intergenerational contract, which says that my state

:48:51. > :48:55.pension, which I will always assert is not a benefit but a contract

:48:56. > :49:01.between myself and successive governments, and those universal

:49:02. > :49:06.pension benefits I receive, too high a cost for today's working age

:49:07. > :49:11.populations. I pause here for a moment to consider the women who

:49:12. > :49:15.have been treated abominably in this and previous governments requiring

:49:16. > :49:21.many of them to wait far too long for a pension which will come later

:49:22. > :49:24.than they were told and has caused them serious hardship. I was very

:49:25. > :49:29.fortunate to be born in the year that I was born in. I paid national

:49:30. > :49:37.insurance contributions and tell I was 16 and continue to pay tax on my

:49:38. > :49:41.salary. I contribute to the national exec -- Exchequer. Indeed, over my

:49:42. > :49:44.lifetime, I believe I have paid in more than I take out. I am very

:49:45. > :49:48.happy that my fellow pensioners who have not contributed as much as me

:49:49. > :49:53.are paid what they deserve. Even if they were not able to contribute as

:49:54. > :49:59.much as I did. And in Scotland, there are many more folk like me. I

:50:00. > :50:03.welcome one of the conclusions of the report that it is not the fault

:50:04. > :50:08.of the baby boomers that the economy has become skewed in their favour.

:50:09. > :50:13.That follows on also from the previous speaker. We shouldn't be

:50:14. > :50:15.allocating blame. Believe me, Madam Deputy Speaker, there have

:50:16. > :50:19.definitely been times in my life when the economy was not skewed in

:50:20. > :50:25.my favour. Some people in this chamber will remember September the

:50:26. > :50:32.16th 1992, and I can't forget that they either. Two years previously, I

:50:33. > :50:36.had taken out my first mortgage at 7.5% and after numerous increases on

:50:37. > :50:40.that day, I found myself laughing hysterically on my drive home from

:50:41. > :50:46.work. I had just found out that the interest rate was now 50% and could

:50:47. > :50:50.rise even higher. Actually, laughing hysterically is not exactly true. I

:50:51. > :50:55.stopped worrying about point because I figured out that no one else could

:50:56. > :51:00.manage to pay their mortgage at that rate, and my house would only be

:51:01. > :51:02.repossessed and my three children made homeless after the building

:51:03. > :51:12.society had repossessed all the homes belonging to people with names

:51:13. > :51:20.beginning capital a - B. The economy was definitely not skewed in my

:51:21. > :51:24.favour when 1997 sounded the death knell for defined benefit pensions

:51:25. > :51:29.and for many of my generation and for future generations this has had

:51:30. > :51:34.a ongoing effect. After this decision, pension schemes became

:51:35. > :51:38.unable to reclaim the tax credit on dividends. Regular dividends are

:51:39. > :51:42.hugely important to overall investment returns, so having a

:51:43. > :51:48.significant chunk taken out of them at a stroke blew a huge hole in the

:51:49. > :51:51.scheme's finances, and the vast majority of them were frozen and

:51:52. > :51:57.closed to new entrants. Speaking at the party conference in 2009, George

:51:58. > :52:01.Osborne said that Mr Brown's disastrous tax rate on pensions

:52:02. > :52:04.heralded the start of the age of irresponsibility. He also said that

:52:05. > :52:08.a Conservative Government would reverse the effects of Gordon

:52:09. > :52:14.Brown's pensions tax rate and get our country saving again. However,

:52:15. > :52:18.in 2010, Mr Osborne abolished the dividend tax credit altogether. This

:52:19. > :52:23.made it impossible for him to reverse Mr Brown's tax rate by

:52:24. > :52:26.making the credit reclaim a bull in future. Thus, we now have the rise

:52:27. > :52:30.of money purchase schemes which means that pension values are even

:52:31. > :52:34.more subject to the variations of the stock market. Indeed, Madam

:52:35. > :52:39.Deputy Speaker, many people of my generation suffered after they are

:52:40. > :52:42.defined benefit pension schemes were frozen and the money purchase

:52:43. > :52:47.schemes they were forced into didn't even hold the value of contributions

:52:48. > :52:51.subsequently paid in. I know of one case where the pensioner and his

:52:52. > :52:57.employer paid in more than ten years and he received less back when he

:52:58. > :53:01.retired as the market was at its lowest point on the date of

:53:02. > :53:05.retirement. All generations will feel the effects of these calculated

:53:06. > :53:11.moves as they move forward to retirement age. It is important to

:53:12. > :53:20.be mindful, while addressing working age challenges, that we look at

:53:21. > :53:23.generation. -- generational gaps. It was the protections offered by the

:53:24. > :53:28.triple lock to the state pension that helps pensioners be really

:53:29. > :53:33.protected in their old age. With inflation set to rise further, these

:53:34. > :53:37.protections must be retained. While addressing the stress of younger

:53:38. > :53:42.generations. While the triple lock remains in place, we need irony

:53:43. > :53:50.guarantees that after 2020 it will not be abandoned. Following the

:53:51. > :53:55.general election -- cast iron certainly. She is making a very

:53:56. > :54:00.captivating speech. On the triple lock, none of us want to make

:54:01. > :54:04.changes in this area. Surely there has to be some recognition about

:54:05. > :54:07.what is affordable for the country's finances. There has to be some

:54:08. > :54:11.recognition of that, balanced against the security of the pension.

:54:12. > :54:16.There is recognition but they're actually awesome ideological truths

:54:17. > :54:19.on the benches opposite that I totally disagree with. We have to

:54:20. > :54:28.look after pensioners just now and pensioners in the future. Indeed,

:54:29. > :54:32.Aids UK have told me to refer to the pensions policy Institute which is

:54:33. > :54:36.deleted that a younger person but lower in earnings as a 62% chance of

:54:37. > :54:40.achieving an adequate retirement income if the new state pension is

:54:41. > :54:46.increased by the triple lock, but this could fall to 36% if it is

:54:47. > :54:51.linked to earnings only. Now, that is for the future, not just for me

:54:52. > :54:55.and my generation. Other parties should be united with the SNP on

:54:56. > :55:00.this future protection, notwithstanding the importance of

:55:01. > :55:06.this report we need to be clear that addressing the challenges for

:55:07. > :55:10.working age individuals does not mean the prioritising the safeguards

:55:11. > :55:13.for future pensioners and indeed future generations of pensioners.

:55:14. > :55:19.The way to tackle intergenerational fairness is through inclusive

:55:20. > :55:24.policies, ensuring that all generations can live in security in

:55:25. > :55:29.retirement. Additionally, the DWP committee report also looked at what

:55:30. > :55:32.are termed universal benefits such as winter fuel payments, which are

:55:33. > :55:36.not indexed linked and have indeed dropped in value over the years. It

:55:37. > :55:42.is the committee's opinion that universal benefit should not be

:55:43. > :55:45.off-limits when spending priorities are set in future parliaments. But

:55:46. > :55:50.the cost of removing them from better off pensioners could, as some

:55:51. > :55:56.commentators have said, be more than the benefits themselves. Madam

:55:57. > :56:00.Deputy Speaker, I have granddaughters, and who knows, one

:56:01. > :56:05.day perhaps grandson is as well. I want things to be better for them. I

:56:06. > :56:09.should like a UK Government to look closely at what can be done to

:56:10. > :56:14.improve matters for them. As I said previously, the UK Government is

:56:15. > :56:18.built on an economy that offers no long-term security for future

:56:19. > :56:23.generations. The SNP's vision of economic development is to build on

:56:24. > :56:27.the idea of inclusive growth based on equal opportunities, a fair and

:56:28. > :56:30.inclusive job market, and a safe and secure future for the younger

:56:31. > :56:38.generations. The Scottish Government is building a safe and secure future

:56:39. > :56:42.for future generations. The Scottish Government believes that a Labour

:56:43. > :56:46.market which is fair and inclusive and provides sustainable and

:56:47. > :56:51.well-paid jobs is a key to a more equal society and a more resilient

:56:52. > :56:56.economy. To achieve intergenerational fairness, we need

:56:57. > :57:01.to tackle the legacy effects of the economic recession. Such as youth

:57:02. > :57:05.unemployment and in work poverty. The Scottish Government is ambitious

:57:06. > :57:10.in its same for reducing youth unemployment and has now implemented

:57:11. > :57:16.the Would Commission's recommendations. Scotland has been a

:57:17. > :57:19.strong advocate of collection action at the EU level, supporting

:57:20. > :57:25.initiatives such as the European youth initiative. Madam Deputy

:57:26. > :57:32.Speaker, I may run out of time, but I will move on very swiftly and talk

:57:33. > :57:35.about how home ownership and housing costs, which the Scottish Government

:57:36. > :57:38.has done a lock to improve. The Scottish Government is home to build

:57:39. > :57:43.50,000 affordable homes, which will help the younger generation, and

:57:44. > :57:50.have brought out the new private housing tenancy Scotland Bill, which

:57:51. > :57:55.is completely creating simpler tenancies, offering stability and

:57:56. > :57:59.security to the 700,000 tenants who call the private rented sector home.

:58:00. > :58:04.In fact, it improve security for tenants, it has a comprehensive and

:58:05. > :58:08.robust repossession grounds and the opportunity for local authorities to

:58:09. > :58:13.implement rate caps included in it. Madam Deputy Speaker, what we need

:58:14. > :58:15.for all generations is hope for the future and robust policies that do

:58:16. > :58:20.not picked one generation against another. My children and

:58:21. > :58:24.grandchildren do not grudge me what I have erred and paid for. I want

:58:25. > :58:27.the best for them as well. But I have grave misgivings about their

:58:28. > :58:31.life chances under this Tory Government. Theresa May has

:58:32. > :58:38.indicated that the UK could fall down a road of deregulation, a tax

:58:39. > :58:46.haven style economy. I am sure the honourable lady meant to say the

:58:47. > :58:51.Prime Minister. I beg your pardon Madam Deputy Speaker. A tax of in

:58:52. > :58:55.style economy would deny opportunity and security to millenials and

:58:56. > :58:58.generations to come, and finally to pursue a deregulated tax haven

:58:59. > :59:02.charter is not only a futile race to the bottom that will impact

:59:03. > :59:07.businesses and harm the economy, it is clear admission that the UK

:59:08. > :59:12.Government has not learned from mistakes made in the 2008 financial

:59:13. > :59:24.crisis and more recently in the Panama papers. John Penrose. Madam

:59:25. > :59:26.Deputy Speaker, the honourable member in a typically assured and

:59:27. > :59:30.authoritative speech on this issue began by saying and I think rightly

:59:31. > :59:36.that intergenerational fairness is a huge issue. He said that the Select

:59:37. > :59:40.Committee had had of necessity to focus on a particular area. It is a

:59:41. > :59:45.pretty big and important area to do with the triple lock, but it is a

:59:46. > :59:48.much broader issue than just that. So intergenerational fairness or

:59:49. > :59:53.generational justice, if you want to call it that instead, it is not a

:59:54. > :59:57.brand-new concept. It is not a brand-new idea. But it is absolutely

:59:58. > :00:02.certainly an idea which is gaining in political salience. It is an idea

:00:03. > :00:05.whose time is coming, if it has not already come. And part of that is

:00:06. > :00:12.because of the change in the demographics of this country. Which

:00:13. > :00:15.again, I think, and lay the Select Committee's decision to look

:00:16. > :00:19.unbeatable lock. The fact that we have something called a demographic

:00:20. > :00:24.time bomb ticking away and successive governments of every

:00:25. > :00:28.stripe have had to deal with the mathematical logic looking forward

:00:29. > :00:32.into our physical future, which means both on the impact for the

:00:33. > :00:37.state pension but also for the state benefits and many other facets of

:00:38. > :00:40.our Government finances. And I would just say that this concept,

:00:41. > :00:49.therefore, of generational justice provides us with an incredibly

:00:50. > :00:53.useful new moral prison -- prism through which to view our spending

:00:54. > :00:56.decisions to date. And my honourable friend from Swindon rightly said

:00:57. > :01:03.that it is extremely rare for governments since the Second World

:01:04. > :01:06.War to run a budget surplus. By and large, as a nation, it doesn't

:01:07. > :01:11.matter who it has been in Government, we have out spent

:01:12. > :01:14.ourselves. We have overspent. We have been spending today and hoping

:01:15. > :01:20.that something will turn up tomorrow. And that cannot go on.

:01:21. > :01:26.Given this notion of general racial Justice, which is increasingly in --

:01:27. > :01:30.generational justice, which is increasingly in people's minds. We

:01:31. > :01:37.need to ask yourself if we are spending on things today which just

:01:38. > :01:40.help our lifestyle, how can be fair our children and on our

:01:41. > :01:43.grandchildren? Because they are the ones, if we borrowed to support that

:01:44. > :01:49.spending, they are the ones who are going to have to pay for our

:01:50. > :01:57.lifestyle today. That cannot be fair at all, and we will have to justify

:01:58. > :02:01.it to them. When we in turn come to put -- to claim our state benefits.

:02:02. > :02:05.I am a little bit more generous I think that my friend from North

:02:06. > :02:08.Swindon because I would say that there are a few occasions when it is

:02:09. > :02:14.justified to borrow more than we receive in tax benefits, in tax

:02:15. > :02:18.revenue, particularly if we are borrowing to spend on things which

:02:19. > :02:21.are then going to be enjoyed by our children and grandchildren and they

:02:22. > :02:24.are going to be able to use them themselves. We in this country

:02:25. > :02:30.today, we benefit from the investments which our predecessors

:02:31. > :02:35.made in railways, inroads. Nowadays, we are investing in our turn in

:02:36. > :02:39.digital infrastructure, which our future generations, our children and

:02:40. > :02:41.grandchildren, will be able to use themselves. Those things are things

:02:42. > :02:43.which last and which will yield benefit not just to us but to future

:02:44. > :02:58.generations to. The moral prism is that we can then

:02:59. > :03:05.distinguish between things our grandchildren can use further

:03:06. > :03:12.benefit as well as ours, compared with things which subsidise our

:03:13. > :03:16.lifestyle today. And that is the new moral prism. Not something you would

:03:17. > :03:20.have heard very many people in this chamber or elsewhere in our national

:03:21. > :03:27.debate talking about five or ten years ago, certainly not 20 years

:03:28. > :03:32.ago. It is the new concept and it is extremely powerful and important. If

:03:33. > :03:35.you start to view it through that prism, through the lens, and you

:03:36. > :03:42.start to apply the same kinds of fiscal discipline and financial

:03:43. > :03:48.discipline which any dependent pension fund would apply to its

:03:49. > :03:53.liabilities, if you try to value the financial liabilities which are

:03:54. > :03:57.inherent, embedded in the state pension and state pension benefits

:03:58. > :04:00.system, in the same way that for example the pension trustees of the

:04:01. > :04:15.Rolls-Royce pension scheme or any other private pension scheme do, if

:04:16. > :04:21.you apply those actuarial calculations, what you find is that

:04:22. > :04:29.those actuarial liabilities which look and feel and sound and are

:04:30. > :04:33.economically the same as a government bond, a long-term

:04:34. > :04:36.liability, they feel the same and I suggest very strongly that it is

:04:37. > :04:44.only generational leap just that we should treat them the same. If you

:04:45. > :04:50.do that, the government's balance sheet, the public's balance sheet,

:04:51. > :04:54.overall commitments start to look very difficult indeed. It is not a

:04:55. > :04:59.comment on the current government or the last couple of governments,

:05:00. > :05:03.Coalition or labour. It's a comment on the way this country has been

:05:04. > :05:10.thinking or behaving since world War, since we founded the welfare

:05:11. > :05:15.state. If you add those actuarial calculations on to what we normally

:05:16. > :05:22.call the National debt, the stock of government bonds in issue, you don't

:05:23. > :05:26.just get a figure projected by about 90% of gross domestic product, a

:05:27. > :05:30.level which gives people like me and nosebleed from altitude were going

:05:31. > :05:34.to be operating at in due course, the strain on our government balance

:05:35. > :05:43.sheet is already high, you don't just get some were knocking on 90%

:05:44. > :05:54.of GDP, you get a figure of some work between 350-400% of GDP. And I

:05:55. > :05:59.think it is time that we started being honest with ourselves, not

:06:00. > :06:03.just honest with ourselves across the aisle here in this chamber, but

:06:04. > :06:09.honest with ourselves as a society and a nation about the scale of the

:06:10. > :06:15.check that we are asking our children and grandchildren to cash

:06:16. > :06:21.on our behalf. It means that the government's finances are a great

:06:22. > :06:27.deal more brittle and fragile and exposed to external shocks of the

:06:28. > :06:32.kind we have just suffered in 2008, than we have been willing to admit

:06:33. > :06:40.to ourselves and we have been a high rolling economy of that kind since

:06:41. > :06:43.we first invented the welfare state. Now, the select committee chair

:06:44. > :06:46.rightly pointed out there are a number of different reactions to

:06:47. > :06:53.this inconvenient truth that we could do. We could raise taxes, we

:06:54. > :06:56.could ignore the problem, but there are a number of different things he

:06:57. > :07:00.could do. There was one alternative he didn't mention that I would like

:07:01. > :07:06.to table for people to consider because the only way that we can

:07:07. > :07:08.deal with the generational injustice of charging our children and

:07:09. > :07:13.grandchildren for the liabilities which we are building up under the

:07:14. > :07:21.state pension and state benefits system is to switch from our current

:07:22. > :07:27.pay-as-you-go system. And that is a gulping way large financial

:07:28. > :07:31.commitment. But it is also something which I'm afraid is inescapable once

:07:32. > :07:35.we have accepted that we have been kidding ourselves about the scale of

:07:36. > :07:40.the public liabilities which this country has been writing for itself

:07:41. > :07:44.for the last 50 years or more. And the only way to move from a

:07:45. > :07:49.pay-as-you-go system to a fully paid-up system, the same system

:07:50. > :07:52.which will already demand from the occupational schemes which we

:07:53. > :07:58.already look at and we look at with some degree of envy and some degree

:07:59. > :08:08.of approval. The occupational schemes which are held up by many to

:08:09. > :08:20.be the apple of the pensions' i.e.. The only way we can do that is to

:08:21. > :08:24.take a steady process. It would be unjust to charge the current

:08:25. > :08:28.generation of taxpayers the cost of supporting the current pay-as-you-go

:08:29. > :08:35.system where we all pay for the current pensions liabilities, but

:08:36. > :08:37.also to ask us to build up a fund to afford the future pensions

:08:38. > :08:43.liabilities in order to wipe out the generational injustice. That will be

:08:44. > :08:49.an injustice of a different kind and different skill. I would therefore

:08:50. > :08:57.make this point to all here and to anyone listening more widely. If we

:08:58. > :09:00.are serious of that generational injustice, if we are serious about

:09:01. > :09:04.trying to make sure we are not expecting our children and

:09:05. > :09:10.grandchildren to fund our pensions and benefits, whether we get sick or

:09:11. > :09:16.are out of work, if we are serious about asking them to fund vital part

:09:17. > :09:22.of our lifestyle, we need to make a long-term commitment to deal with

:09:23. > :09:26.their inheritance to. Families do this all the time. We make

:09:27. > :09:31.commitments on behalf of their children and grandchildren. As a

:09:32. > :09:34.society, I would argue we need to start being honest with ourselves

:09:35. > :09:38.about the size of the burden we are placing on future generations and we

:09:39. > :09:43.have been placing on future generations, and which the

:09:44. > :09:51.generational time bomb is starting to impose in ever ever heavier

:09:52. > :09:56.burdens. Therefore, I would argue the only solution to be approached

:09:57. > :10:00.slowly and carefully over a very very long time skill is to make the

:10:01. > :10:05.commitment to switch from a pay-as-you-go system to a fully

:10:06. > :10:10.funded system and to make sure we can look our children and

:10:11. > :10:16.grandchildren in the eye and say, we did not ask you to pay for our

:10:17. > :10:24.lifestyle any more. Let's try for nine minutes or less. Thank you.

:10:25. > :10:31.Could I congratulate the Member for Birkenhead for bringing forward this

:10:32. > :10:36.important debate on social mobility. We are not the only country dealing

:10:37. > :10:42.with longevity. That's a very positive thing in my other role as

:10:43. > :10:52.the Shadow minister for the Far East. China are the most populated

:10:53. > :10:58.country in the world and have a large ageing population. We are not

:10:59. > :11:04.the only ones questioning how the best ideas may be brought forward.

:11:05. > :11:11.Risley on older people first, let's not forget the pension credit is one

:11:12. > :11:15.of the parts of the benefits system which is actually under claimed. I'm

:11:16. > :11:20.always surprised when I meet all their fault in my advice surgery,

:11:21. > :11:26.just how many pensioners there are living in poverty in what is one of

:11:27. > :11:32.the most well-to-do constituencies on one part and one of the progress

:11:33. > :11:42.on the other. The people in Wood Green living ten years longer than

:11:43. > :11:45.constituents in Muswell Hill. In one constituency, ten years can be the

:11:46. > :11:53.difference between the age of one person passing away and another

:11:54. > :11:59.living on. Clearly, we see today's headlines saying that people will

:12:00. > :12:03.work until they are 71 and we know a feature of older age is the scourge

:12:04. > :12:09.of loneliness. Many people are quite well off, but in the end it is

:12:10. > :12:17.loneliness which ends up being fatal for them. And it's wonderful that

:12:18. > :12:23.our former colleague Jo Cox, in her memorial project, is working on

:12:24. > :12:27.loneliness as a cross-party project. That is a wonderful thing. Today

:12:28. > :12:33.we're thinking of intergenerational issues. Moving to younger people, we

:12:34. > :12:38.know there are a number of areas and it dovetails nicely with the debate

:12:39. > :12:42.we have just had on productivity. On the question of childcare, if we are

:12:43. > :12:46.able to have more effective childcare, we would have many more

:12:47. > :12:49.working age payments in the workforce being able to earn and

:12:50. > :12:55.make those steps within the workplace which the Member for North

:12:56. > :12:58.Swindon talks about. So many women miss out on career opportunities

:12:59. > :13:02.because the childcare simply wasn't there when the needed it, which

:13:03. > :13:06.meant they are not able to get a pay increase which would have enabled

:13:07. > :13:14.them to have a better pension in the end. And so it goes on. We know that

:13:15. > :13:16.the former Prime Minister Tony Blair said education, education,

:13:17. > :13:22.education. He knew that better jobs would bring in better tax receipts.

:13:23. > :13:26.That is why it is so important that education be central to what we do

:13:27. > :13:31.in this place. It is a great pity in my view that we are having the first

:13:32. > :13:37.real terms cut to schools in 30 years. I think state schools have to

:13:38. > :13:41.be, as the places that educate over 90% of our children, have to be

:13:42. > :13:45.first and foremost of what we do and I think it is very regressive

:13:46. > :13:50.indeed. On the question of apprenticeships and further

:13:51. > :13:54.education, once again, a cut to further education can only lead to a

:13:55. > :14:00.lowering of educational opportunity within the general population. My

:14:01. > :14:04.honourable friend, the Member for Tottenham is now calling for

:14:05. > :14:07.something similar to working men's colleges because of the lack of

:14:08. > :14:12.opportunity to learn. I'm always delighted when I go to my advice

:14:13. > :14:19.surgeries in Wood Green library to see how many adults there are

:14:20. > :14:25.learning English or maths or another subject which would give them that

:14:26. > :14:31.golden bit of education to get them into a good job. Briefly, regarding

:14:32. > :14:34.university fees, we now London Metropolitan University puts

:14:35. > :14:38.educates nurses, I was speaking to a lecturer there the other day who

:14:39. > :14:45.said the average nurse now comes out with a debt of ?54,000. If you are

:14:46. > :14:50.nurse and you have a debt of ?54,000, it's quite obvious if you

:14:51. > :14:55.have a starting salary of 24,000, it is going to take you a long time

:14:56. > :14:59.indeed to pay that off. That individual will end up being part of

:15:00. > :15:06.the intergenerational issues we are talking about today. Not only that,

:15:07. > :15:10.working age families are facing increasing costs of travel to

:15:11. > :15:17.commute to work. Increasing costs of energy bills and telecoms. With

:15:18. > :15:21.three children each having a mobile phone, it is much more expensive

:15:22. > :15:26.than when we just had a landline. But it is not considered a luxury

:15:27. > :15:32.any more. It is something you need for work. So many working age

:15:33. > :15:37.families are going backwards. Finally, on the question of the

:15:38. > :15:41.psychology of universal services, universal goods and services, I want

:15:42. > :15:50.to very briefly relate an experience I had as a council leader there I

:15:51. > :15:54.introduced a ?100 backed scheme for older people on the basis they were

:15:55. > :15:59.older. We wanted to do something for older people and we were looking at

:16:00. > :16:03.how we could do that. I think it is the most interesting thank you

:16:04. > :16:10.letters I received as a council leader. Thank you, I am just over

:16:11. > :16:15.the benefit level, I've worked all my life it feels wonderful to have

:16:16. > :16:20.that recognition from the council and that bit of ?100 will help me

:16:21. > :16:24.have a holiday or a day out whatever. We know the Freedom Pass

:16:25. > :16:29.is a concessionary travel scheme for older Londoners and it is very

:16:30. > :16:34.cherished. I would like to see many more travel concessions for the

:16:35. > :16:39.region. The fact you cannot get on a bus in a village and getting to the

:16:40. > :16:44.local town to go shopping holds back our high streets and the economy

:16:45. > :16:48.enormously. I think it is something a Labour government would introduce.

:16:49. > :16:53.The NHS is a popular universal service. If we follow the reasoning

:16:54. > :16:59.of some of the contributions which members and right honourable members

:17:00. > :17:03.have made today, one would assume that targeting everything is the

:17:04. > :17:08.right way to go. We know universalism does work. Finally on

:17:09. > :17:12.the question of housing, the big divide between the high-value areas

:17:13. > :17:19.of the country in the lower value areas, it is so difficult for people

:17:20. > :17:24.when they want to do a job in a high-value area like London or

:17:25. > :17:27.Oxford or Bristol, and they just find the cost of renting

:17:28. > :17:32.astronomical. The best investment that actually the state can make,

:17:33. > :17:38.and we know because every other wealthy investor is making it to, is

:17:39. > :17:43.in bricks and mortar. The average local authority home costs ?100,000

:17:44. > :17:48.in capital to build. If you pay that back at a rate of ?150 per week as a

:17:49. > :17:52.family, you make that up over a 10-year period. Social housing is a

:17:53. > :17:55.wonderful investment and housing in general is a wonderful investment.

:17:56. > :18:02.The wonderful thing about housing stock is it is therefore ever to use

:18:03. > :18:17.and let out again and return that. So, in conclusion,... Mr Speaker,

:18:18. > :18:22.you have slept in so quietly, excuse me. In conclusion, Mr Speaker, the

:18:23. > :18:30.question of social mobility, first of all, the point I made initially

:18:31. > :18:34.was simply to reiterate that pension credit is often under claimed and

:18:35. > :18:40.not to assume everybody doing very well is over the age of 65.

:18:41. > :18:46.And also does the pressures that there are working families, be that

:18:47. > :18:50.through the desperate need for affordable childcare, be that

:18:51. > :18:54.through the increasing of commuting to work with flat-lining wages and

:18:55. > :18:58.the other one that I didn't mention, of course, household debt, because

:18:59. > :19:02.we know that that is creeping up again, something which we need to

:19:03. > :19:08.watch very carefully. The case for education and the case for housing

:19:09. > :19:13.to be invested in by governments is the way to goal and I would hope

:19:14. > :19:17.that we could learn much more from the report from my honourable friend

:19:18. > :19:21.and not forgetting the complexities of the situation. Thank you, Mr

:19:22. > :19:25.Speaker. As far as I can see, there are four more backbench would be

:19:26. > :19:31.contributors and I should have thought that we would need to start

:19:32. > :19:34.the front bench windups no later than 6:30pm and if the honourable

:19:35. > :19:40.member from Birkenhead would like to do a wind-up and certainly no later

:19:41. > :19:43.than them. Stuart Jackson. This has been an excellent debate and very

:19:44. > :19:49.thoughtful and intelligent contributions from all members and

:19:50. > :19:53.brilliantly introduced by the Right Honourable gentleman for Birkenhead.

:19:54. > :19:57.This debate is about poverty. It is about wealth. It is about the

:19:58. > :20:05.accretion of assets. It is about life chances. My grandmother was one

:20:06. > :20:13.of 13 children born in County Wexford in Ireland. 11 of those

:20:14. > :20:16.children died of tuberculosis. Before Kathleen, my grandmother, was

:20:17. > :20:21.taken to England in the late 40s to live out the rest of her life. And

:20:22. > :20:26.the reason I mention that as it is impossible not to remember that for

:20:27. > :20:33.so many of our fellow citizens for so many of hundreds of years, the

:20:34. > :20:38.reality of their life was brutal, grinding poverty. And I think we

:20:39. > :20:42.have, an enormous distance. So if I can just say to the honourable

:20:43. > :20:50.gentleman for Birkenhead, yes, there is much to be done. But we have done

:20:51. > :20:54.a great deal. To right the wrong of that grinding poverty that afflicted

:20:55. > :21:02.so many people over so many years. And indeed, really the modern

:21:03. > :21:05.welfare state was debated after Lord George Broughton the people's budget

:21:06. > :21:10.which brought on social insurance and pensions and the foundations for

:21:11. > :21:17.the welfare state. And that, of course, is important to remember.

:21:18. > :21:21.Some for that reason, I think we ought to recognise that we have gone

:21:22. > :21:25.in the right direction over the years, and if I can use one other

:21:26. > :21:34.sadistic, Mr Speaker, it is impossible to believe but as

:21:35. > :21:40.recently as 1980. -- statistics. 44% of the world lived in absolute

:21:41. > :21:43.poverty. In 2015, it is 9.6%. So because of technology and science

:21:44. > :21:46.and innovation and advances in health care, we have done an

:21:47. > :21:54.enormous amount to less than burden of destitution, misery and poverty

:21:55. > :21:58.from our fellow man. And I think we should accept that that is

:21:59. > :22:02.important. I'm going to confine my remarks to this report and the

:22:03. > :22:10.specific issues raised. It doesn't have to be an acrimonious debate, an

:22:11. > :22:15.adversarial debate between the so-called millenials and the baby

:22:16. > :22:18.boomers, because none of us can do anything about the societal change

:22:19. > :22:22.that is inherent in this debate, which is essentially demographic

:22:23. > :22:27.change. The number of over 85 is is going to double in the next 25

:22:28. > :22:34.years. That is a fantastic piece of news because as recently as 30 years

:22:35. > :22:39.ago, we worked incredibly hard, often in manual work, you reach 70,

:22:40. > :22:44.you had a few years of attending a plant or your budgie and he fell off

:22:45. > :22:50.your Birchall. That was the reality of our life. -- off your purchase.

:22:51. > :22:54.People now richer, healthier, happier and healthier than they have

:22:55. > :22:59.ever been before and that is a good thing. I think it is also true to

:23:00. > :23:03.say, though, Mr Speaker, that we haven't always done the right thing

:23:04. > :23:08.in response to that significant demographic change. And going back

:23:09. > :23:12.to the point is that my honourable friend for North Swindon made, we

:23:13. > :23:18.have made some policy mistakes. We had a fetish in the 1980s and 1990s

:23:19. > :23:24.for university education, academic education. We didn't consider the

:23:25. > :23:27.importance of technical, vocational education to young people who are

:23:28. > :23:32.not necessarily gifted on the academic side. We drove this target

:23:33. > :23:36.of 50% of 18-year-olds going to university. It is great if you are

:23:37. > :23:41.going to Harvard or Oxford or Cambridge. It isn't great if you're

:23:42. > :23:46.going to a less prestigious university and end up earning ?7 50

:23:47. > :23:51.an hour in a call centre and you have got ?40,000 of student debt. We

:23:52. > :23:55.have two really consider whether we made the right decision. For

:23:56. > :23:58.instance, we removed polytechnics, which did a great job in terms of

:23:59. > :24:02.their technical education for young people and turned them all into

:24:03. > :24:07.universities. Was that the right thing? We are doing our best now to

:24:08. > :24:11.ameliorate those issues by the creation, for instance, of

:24:12. > :24:15.University technical colleges and a brilliant apprenticeship programme

:24:16. > :24:20.across the country. But I'm not sure it is enough. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:24:21. > :24:29.housing is an important issue that the honourable lady, I think she got

:24:30. > :24:34.figures the wrong way around, unless that area has gone downhill since I

:24:35. > :24:39.visited it is, but it is absolutely right to point up the issue that

:24:40. > :24:45.older people who are in any case better off are hoarding capital

:24:46. > :24:49.assets and in the planning system in particular, are preventing younger

:24:50. > :24:52.people from having what they had, and when we are any position where

:24:53. > :24:59.you have to be 37 years of age now and have something like ?25,000 for

:25:00. > :25:03.a deposit, that cannot be right in distorting the system. We must build

:25:04. > :25:08.more homes and we must release more land and we must liberalise the

:25:09. > :25:14.planning system in order to address the specific issue of housing and

:25:15. > :25:19.intergenerational fairness. We do have to look at the triple lock. We

:25:20. > :25:23.need to have a national debate about that and I am indebted to the

:25:24. > :25:28.resolution foundation and their paper produced a few years ago,

:25:29. > :25:32.stagnation generation the case for reviewing the intergenerational

:25:33. > :25:35.contract, and the work of Lord Willetts amongst a number of people.

:25:36. > :25:42.It is scarcely believable that they could say, quote, millenials are at

:25:43. > :25:47.the risk of being the first ever generation to record low lifetime

:25:48. > :25:50.earnings than their predecessors. That is the political inheritance

:25:51. > :25:54.that we are potentially giving to people who are under 30 at the

:25:55. > :25:59.moment will stop very briefly, I will give way. I wonder if my

:26:00. > :26:05.honourable friend would agree with me in terms of the tax relief to

:26:06. > :26:10.enable younger people to save more. Three quarters of tax relief goes to

:26:11. > :26:15.higher earners, often older. If we were to lower it, it would mean that

:26:16. > :26:19.lower income people would have more income available. I absolutely agree

:26:20. > :26:25.that in terms of fairness and social equity, that is an excellent fiscal

:26:26. > :26:29.policy which we can look at. We also need to look at the information gap.

:26:30. > :26:34.We need qualitative data as between what goes in and what goes out

:26:35. > :26:41.across both generations. We need to publish that analysis and study it

:26:42. > :26:45.independently. We do need to look at universal benefits such as the

:26:46. > :26:48.winter fuel allowance. It is inevitable with that demographic

:26:49. > :26:52.change that we need to make sure that we marshal or public resources

:26:53. > :26:58.in the best way that we possibly can and we do need to look at a smooth

:26:59. > :27:07.earnings link and nuance in terms of prices related to indexing of

:27:08. > :27:11.benefits to pensioners. Because the situation is life expectancy is

:27:12. > :27:16.increasing and health outcomes are getting better. Not that we haven't

:27:17. > :27:20.done a good job. Automatic enrolment, changes in tax

:27:21. > :27:27.allowances, the National Living Wage, record employment of 74.6%.

:27:28. > :27:34.Apprenticeships, and real incomes are now rising 2.6%, and as my

:27:35. > :27:38.honourable friend said, use on a planet is reducing you implement in

:27:39. > :27:42.my own constituency is amongst the biggest falls of any constituency in

:27:43. > :27:49.England at around 70%. I would say, just in passing, work means well.

:27:50. > :27:53.Work is the biggest determinant of getting out of poverty in our

:27:54. > :27:58.country, albeit that it might be low paid and low skilled work at the

:27:59. > :28:01.beginning, but it is the number-1 determinant of breaking the cycle of

:28:02. > :28:05.intergenerational welfare dependency. That is hugely

:28:06. > :28:14.impressive that the Government has taken 865,000 people out of workless

:28:15. > :28:19.households since 2010. And I think they need obviously to do more. Can

:28:20. > :28:23.I just finished briefly, and I would like to say a lot more, as you can

:28:24. > :28:29.imagine, Mr Speaker, because this is a very important issue. What I sense

:28:30. > :28:33.today, and incidentally can I just be a little bit disobliging to the

:28:34. > :28:36.Scottish National party before I finish because the honourable lady,

:28:37. > :28:40.who I think is an excellent representative form honourable, was

:28:41. > :28:44.rather churlish and her party's own point. If we are talking about

:28:45. > :28:49.ideology, perhaps you can explain the ?2000 per head in public

:28:50. > :28:56.expenditure as a result of the Barnett formula? I will leave that

:28:57. > :29:01.for her to think about. At that is between her constituents. Can I just

:29:02. > :29:07.finished by saying that my honourable friend made a superb

:29:08. > :29:10.speech, but the fact of the matter is we have not got a biscuit tin

:29:11. > :29:14.approach will be just put it in a biscuit tin and take it out when we

:29:15. > :29:18.are 68 or 70, we do have a pay as you go system. We have got to have a

:29:19. > :29:22.national consensus and a proper debate on this issue because we

:29:23. > :29:27.cannot kick it into the long grass any longer. But I would say that, as

:29:28. > :29:34.I said at the beginning of my speech, grinding poverty,

:29:35. > :29:37.destitution, ill health, mental illness, all things that we never

:29:38. > :29:44.want to go back to, and the system that we have is the price we paid

:29:45. > :29:54.for a civilised society. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to avoid seeing

:29:55. > :29:59.this as an issue of John versus old and I am conscious that there is a

:30:00. > :30:04.huge variation in the incomes of pensioner households, with some

:30:05. > :30:07.relatively affluent and others struggling to get by. I also

:30:08. > :30:12.recognise the dangers of too much means testing among elderly people

:30:13. > :30:19.and particularly the risk that it can lead to people going without.

:30:20. > :30:23.Despite genuine need. And entitlement. But I am also aware

:30:24. > :30:27.that this is not a great time to be young. Average household income,

:30:28. > :30:35.which has been rising for every successive generation since 1910,

:30:36. > :30:38.has stopped rising for those born in the 1980s. They are the first

:30:39. > :30:43.generation to start their working lives on in income law than that of

:30:44. > :30:49.the previous generation. This younger generation will also do less

:30:50. > :30:55.well with pensions, both through lack of access to defined benefit

:30:56. > :30:59.schemes and the age at which they will be entitled to a state pension.

:31:00. > :31:04.It is true, as we have heard, that auto enrolment will help, but it is

:31:05. > :31:10.hardly generous and it will require a steady rise in employee

:31:11. > :31:15.contributions over the coming years. Personally, I would like to see the

:31:16. > :31:20.Government take a good look at pension tax relief, and I think in

:31:21. > :31:25.response to the honourable gentleman for Weston-Super-Mare, I would like

:31:26. > :31:30.to see what can be done to incentivise those on lower incomes

:31:31. > :31:34.and that the early stages of their working life to save for a pension

:31:35. > :31:40.pot. I think that would be a better use of public money than generous

:31:41. > :31:46.relief for those who have already built up a healthy pot and in some

:31:47. > :31:51.cases quite a substantial pension pot. We need to think about how hard

:31:52. > :31:58.it is for young people to get on the property ladder and the proportion

:31:59. > :32:06.of their already limited income that so many are forced to pay in rent

:32:07. > :32:15.and other housing costs. The IFS reports that young people spend a

:32:16. > :32:20.large proportion of their income on housing payments. I was struck by a

:32:21. > :32:27.proposal in a report of a recent British Academy IFS round table on

:32:28. > :32:30.intergenerational fairness which suggested one answer to the double

:32:31. > :32:38.dilemma of accommodation costs for the young and the social care crisis

:32:39. > :32:44.is to suggest encouraging a model of cohabiting with older people. This

:32:45. > :32:47.might provide benefits of increased companionship, new understandings

:32:48. > :32:53.between generations, at a time when the idea of the extended family is

:32:54. > :32:56.-- has all but ceased to be a feature of our society but so many

:32:57. > :33:11.people feel -- feel isolated. There could be a

:33:12. > :33:17.positive impact on well-being. It could help those who are property

:33:18. > :33:22.rich but cash your. Costs could be set at a fair and realistic level.

:33:23. > :33:26.Bedmate offer something to those whose accommodation costs mean we

:33:27. > :33:33.have no prospect of saving to get on the property ladder. I want to

:33:34. > :33:36.support the chairman of the works and pensions select committee and

:33:37. > :33:41.other members of the select committee in calling for the

:33:42. > :33:46.government to come clean about its future plans for the triple lock,

:33:47. > :33:51.which I honestly don't think is sustainable. I don't want to see an

:33:52. > :33:58.election campaign fought on our faults bidding war for pensioners,

:33:59. > :34:02.only to be followed by a harsh U-turn after words, as we have

:34:03. > :34:08.already seen on something like tuition fees or expectations around

:34:09. > :34:14.social care. I'm aware that many pensioner groups will oppose what I

:34:15. > :34:18.have to say and I have already had a hard time from the West Midlands

:34:19. > :34:22.pensioners Convention for being a member of a committee that could

:34:23. > :34:28.dared to look at this issue. I'm also aware that a commitment to

:34:29. > :34:36.maintain the triple lock for the Hall of the next Parliament, as I

:34:37. > :34:40.understand it, is the current position of the Labour front bench.

:34:41. > :34:44.I ask my honourable friends to look at this again, to see if there is a

:34:45. > :34:49.better way to protect pensioners and hold the government to account on

:34:50. > :34:54.the rather vague plans that are currently being advanced. There are

:34:55. > :34:59.two problems with the triple lock. It has a ratchet effect which means

:35:00. > :35:03.it demands an ever greater share of GDP at a time when we have seen no

:35:04. > :35:07.income growth in working age households for the last ten years.

:35:08. > :35:14.And of course the triple lock creates a trade-off that means that

:35:15. > :35:20.state pension age will have to rise above 70, which means in many cases

:35:21. > :35:26.pushing it above average life expectancy in some of the cooler

:35:27. > :35:32.parts of the country. In some parts of Birmingham, average male life

:35:33. > :35:38.expectancy is already 70.4 years. Healthy life expectancy is as low as

:35:39. > :35:43.33 years. In many parts of the country, average life expectancy and

:35:44. > :35:48.healthy life expectancy is even worse. We've already seen the

:35:49. > :35:56.problem of a rising pension age for the Waspy women, a group that should

:35:57. > :36:02.get transitional help. I wonder what the risks will be if we pursued a

:36:03. > :36:13.policy of an ever rising pension age. I think a better solution would

:36:14. > :36:20.be to link the state pension age to earnings. I ask my front bench to

:36:21. > :36:25.think about this and perhaps a politically acceptable sweetener for

:36:26. > :36:29.such a change might be to consider placing the hugely expensive 2.5%

:36:30. > :36:36.component of the triple lock with a pledge to set a different cap on

:36:37. > :36:43.care costs and more support for social care? We have to accept that

:36:44. > :36:47.work was pensioner incomes, those who have fully retired, have grown

:36:48. > :36:53.more slowly than those of any other group since 2001. Today's young

:36:54. > :36:57.workers are set to be net contributors to the welfare state

:36:58. > :37:03.over the course of their lives. The baby boomer generation will be net

:37:04. > :37:10.beneficiaries. I want honesty for the future, fairness for current and

:37:11. > :37:14.future pensioners, and sustainable and affordable plans for the

:37:15. > :37:21.challenges that lie ahead. Thank you. It is a pleasure to follow the

:37:22. > :37:28.member of the select committee that we are both on. I echo a key

:37:29. > :37:32.argument which is I think we need to reform the triple lock and other

:37:33. > :37:38.pension benefits and use the savings for adult social care and the NHS.

:37:39. > :37:42.The keyword he mentioned was honesty. I think we need to level

:37:43. > :37:47.with the British people about the financial situation we are in. The

:37:48. > :37:53.way to look at that is to say, if we had a blank canvas today, what would

:37:54. > :37:58.we keep that we had no? Nobody starting a pension system today

:37:59. > :38:04.would come up with the triple lock. Nobody would suggest a winter fuel

:38:05. > :38:11.allowance for everyone, regardless of income. No-one would suggest a

:38:12. > :38:19.free bus pass. No-one would suggest a ?10 Christmas bonus which Ted

:38:20. > :38:29.Heath introduced in 1972, which cost ?124 million at Christmas time when

:38:30. > :38:37.the NHS is in crisis. And arbitrary political timetable of the year 2020

:38:38. > :38:43.is unhelpful. We need to find the money in a fairway. To me, the

:38:44. > :38:47.proposition we are about to put more money into adult social care and the

:38:48. > :38:52.NHS, and none of it will come from existing pensioners, would be

:38:53. > :38:57.extraordinary. We have to look at pension benefits and the triple

:38:58. > :39:02.lock. My personal view is this. I think when it comes to the triple

:39:03. > :39:09.lock we have to remember that by 2050 the number of pensioners, the

:39:10. > :39:15.number of people over 65, will be 19 million, almost twice as many as the

:39:16. > :39:18.10 million today. And look at the pressures the current system is

:39:19. > :39:25.under. If you keep the triple lock, it will cost an extra ?15 billion.

:39:26. > :39:28.We should recognise the most vulnerable pensioners, those who

:39:29. > :39:35.need help from the state the most, are those in the care system, those

:39:36. > :39:43.who are in the NHS needing care. Personally, we should look hard at

:39:44. > :39:48.the winter fuel allowance. Invest in remediation measures. Move people

:39:49. > :39:53.want to better energy tariffs. Then wind it down and spend the money on

:39:54. > :39:56.the care system. That's where pensioners need it, particularly in

:39:57. > :40:02.the winter. Look at the free bus pass. Put a nominal charge on that

:40:03. > :40:13.and allow pensioners to travel at peak time. It costs the Exchequer

:40:14. > :40:17.?1.2 billion a year. Free prescriptions. We see that in

:40:18. > :40:21.England we pay for our prescriptions, but 90% of

:40:22. > :40:28.prescriptions in England are not paid for because so many of them go

:40:29. > :40:39.to the over 60s. The cost of free prescriptions for the over 60s in

:40:40. > :40:44.England is ?4.8 billion. I recently went to a constituency meeting. Most

:40:45. > :40:51.of them were well. They received free prescriptions when there are

:40:52. > :41:04.many people of working age who have to pay for them. If you are open and

:41:05. > :41:19.honest, as I am prepared to be he is slaughtering sacred cows in such a

:41:20. > :41:28.steady fashion and I would suggest the free TV licence to be added to

:41:29. > :41:37.his list. They were political measures that beer now relation to

:41:38. > :41:43.the income of the recipient. The sort of politics we simply cannot

:41:44. > :41:47.afford today. We should be prepared to use the savings to support a fair

:41:48. > :41:51.deal for those who have assets and need the care system. And also to

:41:52. > :41:56.support those who cannot support themselves in the care system. If

:41:57. > :42:01.you do raise this money and support the care system, it offers another

:42:02. > :42:07.aspect of generational fearless. The care sector is desperately short of

:42:08. > :42:16.staff. Too many are badly paid. Raise the money going into it and we

:42:17. > :42:24.have an area that will not be hit by the robot replacement phenomenon,

:42:25. > :42:30.there is a strong aspect of intergenerational fairness if you

:42:31. > :42:34.increase pay. To finish on a key point made by the Member for

:42:35. > :42:44.Weston-Super-Mare, an excellent speech, we should move to a funded

:42:45. > :42:49.system. Why should you take the stuff away from me, constituents

:42:50. > :42:56.will ask. I have paid into this my quite right. Pensioners are worried

:42:57. > :43:00.that they get such low interest on their savings. Council tax goes up

:43:01. > :43:07.and they are affected. Many are struggling. The core root of the

:43:08. > :43:13.problems we a pay-as-you-go system. Fast elements of freebies.

:43:14. > :43:15.Prescriptions. It is the contrast between the government who should be

:43:16. > :43:22.doing the right thing, even though it is not popular, and those in the

:43:23. > :43:26.past to have given out vast freebies at the expense of each generation.

:43:27. > :43:32.That is the model we should move towards. The public now past

:43:33. > :43:37.decisions have to be made and we should not shy from them. If we want

:43:38. > :43:43.intergenerational fairness, we will need to have some intergenerational

:43:44. > :43:49.honesty. It is a great pleasure to join this debate at such a late

:43:50. > :43:55.stage. The debate has been in a sense introduced by the very good

:43:56. > :44:04.news on the NHS pensioners. For those of us on the joint select

:44:05. > :44:09.committee, many of us will share the enthusiasm for the results that have

:44:10. > :44:11.come out of that. Coming to the debate today on intergenerational

:44:12. > :44:17.fairness, let me start by putting the case for the prosecution. Which

:44:18. > :44:23.was laid out in more detail in the select committee enquiry into which

:44:24. > :44:30.I and others were part of. They said the economy today in the UK is

:44:31. > :44:35.skewed. We focus on three or four key elements. House prices, life

:44:36. > :44:41.expectancy, burden of looking after the old financed by the young, the

:44:42. > :44:46.triple lock on the pensions, and the implicit social contract between

:44:47. > :44:51.generations that we felt had become skewed and that triggered in the

:44:52. > :44:54.sense two or three specific recommendations, particularly on the

:44:55. > :45:01.new state pension tracking earnings and doing away with the triple lock.

:45:02. > :45:04.The factual evidence behind a case for the prosecution highlighted in

:45:05. > :45:08.the figure that the value of the full state pension as an average, as

:45:09. > :45:13.a percentage of the average earnings, is now the highest it has

:45:14. > :45:19.been since the late 1980s. However, there is of course more to it than

:45:20. > :45:23.that. Some of the points I'd like to highlight today include the fact

:45:24. > :45:29.that actually the percentage of spending on pensioners as a

:45:30. > :45:34.percentage of GDP is following. That's partly due to growing

:45:35. > :45:38.economy, partly due to increases in the state pension age, partly due to

:45:39. > :45:44.the triple lock only applying to the basic state pension and new

:45:45. > :45:50.pensions. Therefore, the statistics are not always helpful in terms of

:45:51. > :45:55.anticipating the future. The other point is that there is a strong

:45:56. > :45:58.feeling amongst some of us that actually the basic state pension did

:45:59. > :46:08.need to increase quite sharply, particularly between 2010 and 2020

:46:09. > :46:17.because it had fallen sharply behind in the previous decade. It is not

:46:18. > :46:21.quite as simple proposition as it first appeared. Secondly, amongst

:46:22. > :46:25.our pensioners today are those who served this country in extremely

:46:26. > :46:28.difficult times, including world wars and other conflicts. Many of

:46:29. > :46:32.them are brought up in very difficult circumstances in a world

:46:33. > :46:36.far removed from the conditions that most people today can imagine. Then

:46:37. > :46:40.there is the business of the young. The young have always faced

:46:41. > :46:43.challenges, the challenge has just changed over time. 100 years ago,

:46:44. > :47:00.people of 18 leaving school were going into different challenges,

:47:01. > :47:02.many of them on the Western front. My own grandparents as young people

:47:03. > :47:05.met shortly after the carnage on the battle of the Somme where my

:47:06. > :47:07.grandfather had been injured and the woman who became his wife was

:47:08. > :47:09.nursing him. The challenges of today, while considerable, we

:47:10. > :47:11.shouldn't underestimate what they were in the past as well. On

:47:12. > :47:16.housing, I think that one of the ironies of our leaving the European

:47:17. > :47:21.Union at this stage may be just at the moment we do so, we are

:47:22. > :47:26.beginning to adopt a more European approach to the homes we live in and

:47:27. > :47:32.renting them from a longer than we previously dead, as they do on the

:47:33. > :47:35.continent. So, and this has been recognised by the current government

:47:36. > :47:38.in a sense by wanting to create more social housing that would be

:47:39. > :47:46.available for rent, then there are other points which have been well

:47:47. > :47:50.raised by my honourable friend, the Member for Swindon, which spoke

:47:51. > :47:57.about the National Citizen service which I think has cost ?1.2 billion

:47:58. > :48:00.so far, not on any balance sheet of course. Apprenticeships, youth

:48:01. > :48:06.unemployment is at the lowest for 12 years. The openings and

:48:07. > :48:08.opportunities in universities and further education colleges. And

:48:09. > :48:14.therefore one of the things I hope that the former right honourable

:48:15. > :48:20.member in his current role as chairman of the resolution

:48:21. > :48:25.committee, I hope that he doesn't try and set pensioners against

:48:26. > :48:26.working age against the young. For that could be extremely

:48:27. > :48:36.counter-productive. There are, of course, things that

:48:37. > :48:40.could be done to improve the balance, the relationship. Some were

:48:41. > :48:43.mentioned by the honourable member for Weston-Super-Mare and of course

:48:44. > :48:48.we could look at a double, not a triple lock. But nonetheless, I want

:48:49. > :48:53.to finish, Mr Speaker, because I can see that you are agitating, by

:48:54. > :48:59.trying to highlight the fact that we should never forget that in our

:49:00. > :49:03.efforts to make sure that the costs of old age don't cripple the future

:49:04. > :49:07.generations paying for them, we shouldn't also forget the hugely

:49:08. > :49:11.positive role played by so many grandparents and great grandparents

:49:12. > :49:15.in looking after children, sharing their love and wisdom through many

:49:16. > :49:18.families, especially where the parent's on relationships are broken

:49:19. > :49:21.down and the children are often being guided by their grandparents.

:49:22. > :49:25.In many ways, all the people are always helping out in passing, so

:49:26. > :49:30.don't let's forget this and in the analysis that the resolution

:49:31. > :49:33.foundation wants to do the balance of fiscal contributions from

:49:34. > :49:35.withdrawals, which I think it is right that it is done by the

:49:36. > :49:39.foundation are not by the Government, let us not forget that

:49:40. > :49:43.they are incredibly sensitive issues, some of which emerged as a

:49:44. > :49:46.moral issue during the Assisted Dying Bill, where we do not want to

:49:47. > :49:51.end up inadvertently sending generations interests against one

:49:52. > :49:54.another, for at the end of the day, letters be mindful of what many

:49:55. > :49:58.others in this house believes and the late Jo Cox articulated

:49:59. > :50:02.brilliantly that what we all have in common is so much more than what

:50:03. > :50:10.divides us and that includes by generations. Kirsty Blackman. Thank

:50:11. > :50:12.you very much, Mr Speaker. You may know, certainly some people have

:50:13. > :50:15.heard me talking before about my issues with the estimates process

:50:16. > :50:18.and the fact that I do not agree that we should do the estimates in

:50:19. > :50:21.its wake and I think the Government should seriously consider the

:50:22. > :50:24.reforms put forward by the procedure committee in the way that we do the

:50:25. > :50:28.estimates because we should be allowed to discuss them at length

:50:29. > :50:32.and to scrutinise them. That hadn't been said. I want to talk

:50:33. > :50:36.specifically about the intergenerational fairness report.

:50:37. > :50:40.That has been brought before us. I think it works quite nicely that

:50:41. > :50:45.myself and my colleague from Motherwell and Wishaw were here as

:50:46. > :50:51.the SNP team to talk about this. So I just want to briefly touched on my

:50:52. > :50:55.story, if you like. And then talk about some of the issues that people

:50:56. > :51:01.my age face. So my grandparents were part of the silent generation, my

:51:02. > :51:09.parents were at the very tail end of the baby boomers. I am a millenial.

:51:10. > :51:19.My children are a generation that is sometimes called or Generation Z. In

:51:20. > :51:23.people that I have spoken to, my grandparents, they have spoken to me

:51:24. > :51:26.about the hardship that they faced. In my family history, we have faced

:51:27. > :51:31.all of the issues that are discussed in this report. The issues that

:51:32. > :51:35.people my age face are different to issues that have been faced in

:51:36. > :51:40.certainly relatively recent generations. There are issues with

:51:41. > :51:44.precarious jobs and the gig economy and I don't think that has been

:51:45. > :51:47.talked about a huge amount here today but I think it is really

:51:48. > :51:50.important thing to note that there is not the security of jobs that may

:51:51. > :51:54.be some people had in previous generations. You cannot expect to

:51:55. > :51:57.walk into a job and still be in that are 20 or 30 years' time. You walk

:51:58. > :52:00.into that job as a young person and you wonder if you will still be

:52:01. > :52:05.there in six months' time because of the precarious nature of the

:52:06. > :52:08.contracts that there these days. One of the things that is also not been

:52:09. > :52:13.discussed is the fact that people my age are delaying having children,

:52:14. > :52:16.which actually stores up even more problems for the future in terms of

:52:17. > :52:22.the demographic issues that we have. What we should have been doing is 20

:52:23. > :52:29.years ago, wishing -- we should have been having more children. Now the

:52:30. > :52:31.problem is exacerbated even more. Because people are pushing having

:52:32. > :52:36.children into later in adult it than they would have before. And that is

:52:37. > :52:39.causing an issue because we will not have the working age population to

:52:40. > :52:43.support us. I am not going to be able to retire for another 38 years.

:52:44. > :52:47.That is when I will head state pension age. By that time, I will

:52:48. > :52:55.have been working for... I can't even work out... 49 years, I think,

:52:56. > :52:59.full-time, by the time I hit full state pension age. Other people my

:53:00. > :53:03.age are in the same situation. I want to touch on housing costs. In

:53:04. > :53:11.1990, which is around the time that my parents were buying houses, the

:53:12. > :53:20.average housing cost in Scotland was 2.4 times the average income. In

:53:21. > :53:22.2010, it has increased. Then it was 3.7 times. So buying a house for

:53:23. > :53:26.this generation is much more difficult than it was the previous

:53:27. > :53:31.generations. And one of the biggest problem that I see and I see coming

:53:32. > :53:35.to my door is a lack of council housing. Now, that can firmly be

:53:36. > :53:40.placed with the Thatcher Government and the right to buy. Absolutely,

:53:41. > :53:43.unequivocally, that is the reason for that problem. I was a local

:53:44. > :53:46.authority councillor for a long time before I did this and almost

:53:47. > :53:53.everybody that walked through my door had concerns about the lack of

:53:54. > :53:57.council houses. In 2004-2006, we saw six council houses built in the

:53:58. > :54:01.whole country across that three year period. Since then, we have

:54:02. > :54:05.cancelled the right to buy and the number of council houses is back

:54:06. > :54:09.over 1000 per year, the number that we are building in Scotland. It is

:54:10. > :54:12.not high enough. I would like to see as building more, but we are getting

:54:13. > :54:16.there. We are trying to dismantle the legacy of the Tory Right to buy

:54:17. > :54:19.that has caused a huge problem for this generation. I want a dog about

:54:20. > :54:24.how to fix this problem very briefly. I have touched on social

:54:25. > :54:28.housing. Inclusive growth is really, really important and it is one of

:54:29. > :54:31.those buzzwords that it is talked about. What inclusive growth means

:54:32. > :54:35.is that you don't sit and work out how to grow the economy. What you do

:54:36. > :54:38.is use it and work out how to grow the economy so that everybody

:54:39. > :54:41.benefits, not just the people at the top of the pile, and you need to set

:54:42. > :54:45.out from the beginning, when you are thinking about how you will grow

:54:46. > :54:47.that economy, you need to set out thinking how this will benefit the

:54:48. > :54:51.people at the bottom of the pile that need it the most. And that is

:54:52. > :54:56.what this Government has been lacking in terms of their thinking

:54:57. > :54:59.about economic growth. One of the other things we need to do is to

:55:00. > :55:03.have more children. Unfortunately, we should have started doing that 20

:55:04. > :55:06.years ago and we did not. So what we need to do is to make sure that we

:55:07. > :55:12.keep having the levels of immigration that we have had because

:55:13. > :55:14.to not have this attack on immigration, particularly if people

:55:15. > :55:21.are coming here to do, for example, to study and then to give us the

:55:22. > :55:24.benefit of that study and to work in our economy, generating taxes and

:55:25. > :55:27.paying taxes. I think that is really important, that these people are

:55:28. > :55:31.coming here, they are studying and then they are contributing to the

:55:32. > :55:34.economy. And in many cases, they are then going back to the country,

:55:35. > :55:39.having paid taxes here, which is great so we can support our older

:55:40. > :55:44.generations. Just finally, because I know that I'm quite tight for a

:55:45. > :55:49.time, as a millenial, I am not happy with the situation that people my

:55:50. > :55:52.age are facing. I am not happy with the precarious nature of the jobs

:55:53. > :55:56.market. I am not happy with the expense of housing. However, I do

:55:57. > :56:01.not believe that we should take things away from those people that

:56:02. > :56:05.are currently pensioners in order to fix that. What we should do is we

:56:06. > :56:08.should grow the economy. We should grow the economy inclusively. We

:56:09. > :56:13.should ensure that there are better worker's rights. We should ensure

:56:14. > :56:17.that companies are spreading the wealth and it is not just being

:56:18. > :56:21.divvied out to shareholders who already have lots of money. We

:56:22. > :56:23.should ensure a fairer, more balanced economy, rather than taking

:56:24. > :56:28.things away from those pensioners who have worked for so many years.

:56:29. > :56:37.Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. Debbie Abrahams. Thank you very

:56:38. > :56:40.much, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak on behalf of the opposition

:56:41. > :56:44.in this important debate, and I need to extend the apologies for my Right

:56:45. > :56:51.Honourable friend the member for Birkenhead who I believe is doing

:56:52. > :57:02.media around the BHS news this afternoon. I am also a baby boomer

:57:03. > :57:07.and my girls are millenials. Many of the things that have been talked

:57:08. > :57:12.about today, how lucky I was to be able to go to university without the

:57:13. > :57:19.debt that my girls and many other young people are experiencing, and

:57:20. > :57:27.being able to afford my mortgage in my late 20s before we had our first

:57:28. > :57:30.daughter. Whereas my daughter is just haven't got the opportunity for

:57:31. > :57:33.that. They have that debt that is going to be around their necks for a

:57:34. > :57:37.long while. They aren't in a position to buy their own homes,

:57:38. > :57:43.although they both work incredibly hard. And I absolutely agree with

:57:44. > :57:50.the premise and the Select Committee report that we need to address this

:57:51. > :57:55.intergenerational inequality that is experienced up and down the country,

:57:56. > :58:00.but where I differ are the solutions that we take on this. The report

:58:01. > :58:04.suggests that the triple lock for the state pension should be targeted

:58:05. > :58:09.as a means of making savings from expenditure on the state pension. I

:58:10. > :58:12.don't agree with this proposal. The basic state pension was one of the

:58:13. > :58:19.world's globalist according to the OECD after the Thatcher Government

:58:20. > :58:24.at the time broke the link between earnings and operating in 1980. And

:58:25. > :58:29.this led to a long decline in the value of pensions. One of which the

:58:30. > :58:35.last Labour Government 's drive to restore, and although there have

:58:36. > :58:45.been many positive moves in terms of the new single tier state pension,

:58:46. > :58:49.trying to make a fairer state pension and more widely going to

:58:50. > :58:55.benefit people of this generation, again there are issues with it. We

:58:56. > :59:01.know that those in the 40s in the course of their retirement will be

:59:02. > :59:09.?13,000 a year worse off. Those in the 30s will be ?17,000. And those

:59:10. > :59:12.in the 20s, ?20,000 worse off. The continued above inflation rise will

:59:13. > :59:18.not only benefit those retiring now but will also be enjoyed by

:59:19. > :59:22.generations yet to retire. And this is one of the Central reasons why

:59:23. > :59:28.Labour has committed itself to maintaining the triple lock beyond

:59:29. > :59:34.2020. And I know that we differ from the Government in relation to that.

:59:35. > :59:36.And underpinning our decision is the matter of inequality within

:59:37. > :59:44.generations. We mustn't trade off the inequality of one generation

:59:45. > :59:49.against the poverty of another. Will you excuse me? I am incredibly

:59:50. > :59:54.pressed for time and I've had to cut the speech quite significantly. The

:59:55. > :59:58.Select Committee recognised that by looking solely at the

:59:59. > :00:03.intergenerational picture, one has cited important inequalities

:00:04. > :00:07.existing between generations. And here is the core of my argument

:00:08. > :00:15.around the importance of protecting the triple lock but also universal

:00:16. > :00:20.pencil pension benefits while making different choices to support other

:00:21. > :00:23.generations. We made great strides, Mr Speaker, reducing pensioner

:00:24. > :00:29.poverty. About 1 million people were lifted out of poverty who were

:00:30. > :00:34.pensioners, and that was reducing it to one in seven of pensioners. Still

:00:35. > :00:38.too high, much too high, and it stayed at that level since 2010, and

:00:39. > :00:41.this should be worrying is. It is not acceptable. One of the richest

:00:42. > :00:45.countries in the world still has this level of pensioner poverty. We

:00:46. > :00:51.must do everything we can to ensure that the trend of pensioner poverty

:00:52. > :00:55.does not rise again. And that extends to the commitment to the

:00:56. > :01:01.triple lock, to universal pensions benefit, why we have committed to

:01:02. > :01:06.act immediately on the fate of the 1950s. Because we are really

:01:07. > :01:10.committed to ensuring that every older person has dignity and

:01:11. > :01:13.security in retirement. So what are the other choices that we believe

:01:14. > :01:21.should be made to support this? First of all, three specific policy

:01:22. > :01:23.areas that could immediately help address the intergenerational

:01:24. > :01:29.imbalances in a way that does not deprive one generation against the

:01:30. > :01:33.other. First, we want to introduce a real Living Wage, based on what

:01:34. > :01:39.people actually need. We know that the Living Wage commission, when it

:01:40. > :01:42.evaluated the effects of the National Living Wage that has been

:01:43. > :01:46.introduced, said that it failed to provide basic needs of low income

:01:47. > :01:52.households. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies has

:01:53. > :01:56.shown that unless we see significant policy change, real wages are likely

:01:57. > :02:04.to be still lower in 2021 than they were after the recession. We have

:02:05. > :02:08.seen consistent -- consistently seven years of steady still failing

:02:09. > :02:16.to deliver the pre-recession wages that we had. The decline in the

:02:17. > :02:25.value of wages has been driven by what the all in S has described as

:02:26. > :02:28.unprecedented in decline in activity, unprecedented since World

:02:29. > :02:31.War II. At the same time, prices of basic council services and goods

:02:32. > :02:33.have risen dramatically and this long squeeze has been coupled with

:02:34. > :02:39.the Government and the previous coalitions repeated attack on income

:02:40. > :02:43.support provided to Social Security. Many people have already said about

:02:44. > :02:51.the real issue of around in work poverty. 7.4 million people, one in

:02:52. > :02:54.eight, are associated with that child poverty, and I beg to differ

:02:55. > :02:58.with some of the points that have been said that work is the route out

:02:59. > :03:02.of poverty. Four out of five people on low paid work ten years later

:03:03. > :03:06.will still be in low paid work. So to take these dynamics altogether

:03:07. > :03:11.and they really impact on the standard of living.

:03:12. > :03:17.Labour has committed to intervene. At conference last year, the Shadow

:03:18. > :03:22.Chancellor announced he will introduce a real living wage of ?10

:03:23. > :03:26.per hour. That is what is anticipated will be needed in 2020.

:03:27. > :03:40.The second step is to invest in social and

:03:41. > :03:42.affordable housing. I mentioned about my own experience and my

:03:43. > :04:14.daughter's experience. It really needs repeating the

:04:15. > :04:32.rapid the government should invest in replacing stock lost under the

:04:33. > :04:43.right to buy. Finally, the intervention is to address into --

:04:44. > :04:49.intergenerational imbalance is white enrolment to auto saving. 10 million

:04:50. > :04:55.additional workers are estimated to be newly saving as a result of two

:04:56. > :05:03.enrolment. ?17 billion has been put away by low income workers. Still,

:05:04. > :05:09.there are number of workers, 37% of women, 37% of workers with a

:05:10. > :05:13.disability, 20% of black and ethnic minority workers, not eligible for

:05:14. > :05:17.two enrolment. That must be addressed in the review that will be

:05:18. > :05:24.undertaken. We will be pushing hard for this. As I know the pensions

:05:25. > :05:29.minister will be expecting others to do. To conclude, we respect the hard

:05:30. > :05:33.work of the select committee in putting together this report and I

:05:34. > :05:39.broadly agree with the analysis. We believe there are different emphasis

:05:40. > :05:41.and different policy solutions to address the current

:05:42. > :05:52.intergenerational inequality that exist. Thank you. Having learned a

:05:53. > :06:00.word from the earlier today, I hope we have all learned from the

:06:01. > :06:07.sagacious nurse of the Member for Birkenhead. At least I have that on

:06:08. > :06:15.the record. And many other words which I have learned from you. I

:06:16. > :06:19.seriously thank all members from all sides of the House, particularly

:06:20. > :06:23.members of the work camp in and is select committee who contributed.

:06:24. > :06:29.Briefly, I appreciate the comments which have been made about the

:06:30. > :06:32.pensions regulator securing settlement with Sir Philip Green.

:06:33. > :06:42.That is good for members and will bring peace of mind to the 19,000

:06:43. > :06:47.BHS pensioners who have endured uncertainty after the collapse of

:06:48. > :06:50.PHS. I would like to commend the pensions regulator and staff who

:06:51. > :06:59.have worked hard on this and done everything we could have expected of

:07:00. > :07:01.them. This has been an informative and timely debate because recent

:07:02. > :07:07.evidence shows that pensioner poverty is that near record

:07:08. > :07:13.low-level, a good thing for a pension minister to stand here and

:07:14. > :07:19.see. We have seen a dramatic fall in pensioners living in poverty, from

:07:20. > :07:27.40% in the early 70s, to 14% in 2015. I absolutely do not, I hope

:07:28. > :07:34.will never give the impression of complacency on this. Poverty is

:07:35. > :07:42.poverty. Intergenerational fairness is an easy thing to say. My

:07:43. > :07:53.honourable friend from Peterborough spoke of his grandparents. My

:07:54. > :08:05.parents knew poverty. We were brought up with... Mr Speaker, I was

:08:06. > :08:15.going to mention my mother who has a photograph of you on her

:08:16. > :08:24.mantelpiece. You don't know you are born, you lot. We were lucky. Many

:08:25. > :08:30.people have spoken of how lucky my generation was. We were often the

:08:31. > :08:35.first generation to go to university, but I would like to make

:08:36. > :08:38.clear as far as intergenerational fairness is concerned, the answer to

:08:39. > :08:45.intergenerational fairness is not to make pensioners who were. It's to

:08:46. > :08:49.concentrate on building the economy, building extra houses, having better

:08:50. > :08:56.quality education, Apprentices, all of the things which have been

:08:57. > :09:02.mentioned very eloquently. In most cases by many members of the House,

:09:03. > :09:06.what Americans would see a bipartisan basis. I'm pleased to be

:09:07. > :09:12.part of that. The labour market is the strongest it has been for years.

:09:13. > :09:21.In the last year, we have seen 300,000 more disabled people in

:09:22. > :09:28.work, 200,000 more women. The signs are pretty good. It is obviously

:09:29. > :09:33.right that cross-party consensus is showing lower levels of pension

:09:34. > :09:40.poverty is up were the objective. I recognise the valuable work of the

:09:41. > :09:44.select committee in promoting such issues. We want to ensure pensioners

:09:45. > :09:54.are treated with dignity and respect. As the Right honourable

:09:55. > :09:58.gentleman for Birkenhead acknowledged, pensioner poverty is

:09:59. > :10:01.hugely reduced over the last decade, but he and his committee are right

:10:02. > :10:09.to look at the long-term alternatives. They also mention that

:10:10. > :10:14.budgetary matters are important. We cannot talk about pensions, triple

:10:15. > :10:18.lock or any other system, without considering the amount of public

:10:19. > :10:24.expenditure. As far as the triple lock is concerned, everyone would

:10:25. > :10:28.agree that an invaluable element in addressing the issue of pensioners

:10:29. > :10:32.living in low income has been the government's commitment to the

:10:33. > :10:42.trackball lock. The value of the full basic pension related to

:10:43. > :10:54.earnings is at its highest since the 1980s. Up to ?570 more a year than

:10:55. > :10:59.earnings. As stated in the House before, we introduced a triple lock

:11:00. > :11:02.in 2011 and we are committed to continuing it over this parliament

:11:03. > :11:08.because it has protected the income of millions of people. I'm sorry. I

:11:09. > :11:13.haven't got time to give way. I normally would very much like to. As

:11:14. > :11:16.the Member for Weston-Super-Mare pointed out eloquently, we must be

:11:17. > :11:22.careful about burning future generations with money spent today.

:11:23. > :11:26.That was an interesting and eloquent speech. I will discuss his moral

:11:27. > :11:39.Prism on many other occasions within this chamber and outside. As has

:11:40. > :11:44.been widely said, the government is determined to build a country that

:11:45. > :11:48.works for everyone. Coalition government difficult decisions to

:11:49. > :11:51.put the welfare system on a sustainable footing was still

:11:52. > :11:56.protecting the most vulnerable. It's important to remember during this

:11:57. > :11:59.debate that since 2010 the government has focused on reducing

:12:00. > :12:04.the deficit and getting public spending under control to protect

:12:05. > :12:07.future generations from unpayable public debt. It's very important

:12:08. > :12:12.that is recognised and it fits very much in with what my honourable

:12:13. > :12:18.friend is on the side of have been saying. There are clear signs we are

:12:19. > :12:25.prioritising the sustainability of pension provision in this country.

:12:26. > :12:32.The best example I can give in the limited time available, as mentioned

:12:33. > :12:40.by my honourable friend about the two enrolment, the success of it and

:12:41. > :12:45.the review that is being undertaken, I'm pleased to see that more than ?7

:12:46. > :12:51.million have come out in support of it. I should say that this was

:12:52. > :12:59.introduced by a Labour government, but it was started by a cross-party

:13:00. > :13:03.arrangement and was supported by a cross-party arrangement. She is

:13:04. > :13:10.right to question us on the review. We have been open with it. In terms

:13:11. > :13:17.of intergenerational fairness, the subject of our debate today, I think

:13:18. > :13:26.it is fair to say that the early success of it gives good signs to

:13:27. > :13:32.those who will retire in many years that they will be able to have a

:13:33. > :13:37.clearer idea of what they need to retire. The level of opting out is

:13:38. > :13:42.very low, but that is not a cause for complacency. I would like to

:13:43. > :14:00.quickly point out in the time allowed that the point that has been

:14:01. > :14:03.made by several honourable members, particularly the Member for Swindon

:14:04. > :14:15.North, about apprenticeships because that is crucial to the future. And

:14:16. > :14:23.UTCs. And pleased that the government is on course. It is

:14:24. > :14:38.working with prosperity. Prosperity often comes from skills. From

:14:39. > :14:42.University or alternatives. It is becoming something real and not just

:14:43. > :14:47.a political promise. Mr Speaker, I would like to see that the

:14:48. > :14:52.government's approach to intergenerational fairness is based

:14:53. > :14:56.on ensuring economic prosperity and economic security for working people

:14:57. > :15:05.at every stage of their life, including retirement. The honourable

:15:06. > :15:13.lady for Motherwell pointed out that she is from my generation, I know I

:15:14. > :15:23.look older than she does, but our generation has not been one way be

:15:24. > :15:35.tied. Interest rates shot up. I perfectly understood and that. Life

:15:36. > :15:42.goes up and down. Government has to take that into consideration. The

:15:43. > :15:46.government is committed to improving productivity and innovation which we

:15:47. > :15:49.all agree is for the benefit of everybody in society. And the

:15:50. > :15:57.government is acting to boost productivity, which is crucial to

:15:58. > :16:00.living standards, to reforming job creation and supporting the markets.

:16:01. > :16:07.I would like to end this debate by pointing out that governments have

:16:08. > :16:14.to look at the whole picture. Pensioners, state pension is part of

:16:15. > :16:16.the picture, private pensions are part of the picture. Real

:16:17. > :16:23.intergenerational fairness, which is what most of us want, involves

:16:24. > :16:31.making sure people have long working lives, prosperity from working,

:16:32. > :16:35.enjoying their work, working for a long time and saving for their

:16:36. > :16:39.future. It is for government to guide them from the day they start

:16:40. > :16:53.work until the daily retire about saving for the prosperity of their

:16:54. > :16:57.future. You, Mr Speaker. Order. Under the standing order, I am

:16:58. > :17:02.required to put the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings

:17:03. > :17:05.on the estimates set down for consideration on this day. The first

:17:06. > :17:13.question is the motion on the supplementary estimate for 2016 for

:17:14. > :17:15.the Department of the environment, food and rural affairs. As many as

:17:16. > :17:24.are of the opinion say I. As many as are of

:17:25. > :17:43.the opinion say aye. of the environment,

:17:44. > :17:52.food and rural affairs. As many as are of

:17:53. > :17:54.the opinion say aye. Next, the Department for Work and

:17:55. > :18:02.Pensions. As many as are of

:18:03. > :18:05.the opinion say aye.