20/03/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.we are working with the regional schools commission to make sure they

:00:00. > :00:07.will be provision of those who want to study without having to leave the

:00:08. > :00:10.borough. We must now move on. Before I called the honourable gentleman,

:00:11. > :00:16.the member for Denton and Redditch to ask his urgent question, I would

:00:17. > :00:21.emphasise to the house that this question relates to issues

:00:22. > :00:26.highlighted by the appointment of the Right Honourable gentleman a

:00:27. > :00:29.member of Tatton to the editorship of the London Evening Standard for

:00:30. > :00:34.the operation of the advisory committee on business appointments

:00:35. > :00:39.and the ministerial code. It is not, repeat not, about the conduct of the

:00:40. > :00:46.right Honourable member and I will not countenance supplementary

:00:47. > :00:51.questions which are critical of the conduct of the Right Honourable

:00:52. > :00:57.member. Order. As the house will be aware, criticisms of the conduct of

:00:58. > :01:05.honourable land right honourable members of this house may be made

:01:06. > :01:11.only one substantive motions. Urgent question, Mr Andrew Gwynne. Thank

:01:12. > :01:14.you. To ask the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on the

:01:15. > :01:19.operation of the advisory committee on business appointments and the

:01:20. > :01:23.ministerial code in light of the appointment of the Right Honourable

:01:24. > :01:30.member for Tatton to the editorship of the London Evening Standard.

:01:31. > :01:47.Minister Ben Gummer. , Mr Speaker, I am very grateful indeed. For

:01:48. > :01:52.bringing attention to the house. The ministerial code requires that

:01:53. > :01:54.former ministers must seek advice from the independent advisory

:01:55. > :01:57.committee about any appointments or employment they wish to take up

:01:58. > :02:02.within two' years of leaving office. Might Honourable friend left his

:02:03. > :02:04.role in government in July last year. Information on advice given to

:02:05. > :02:11.him regarding previous appointment has been published on the committee

:02:12. > :02:17.website. I understand is particular role mentioned was received by the

:02:18. > :02:21.committee on March 13 and is currently being considered. When the

:02:22. > :02:26.committee has fully consider this application it will provide its

:02:27. > :02:32.advice to my right honourable friend. Until this advice is made

:02:33. > :02:41.public that is confidential process although no doubt a matter of

:02:42. > :02:43.significant interest to this house. Thank you Mr Speaker and I would

:02:44. > :02:54.like to thank you first before granting this urgent question and I

:02:55. > :03:00.will seek to adhere to your wish not to refer to the right honourable

:03:01. > :03:07.member. This is a matter of great concern as we have seen in the media

:03:08. > :03:11.of the weekend. It was addressed to the Prime Minister not with respect

:03:12. > :03:15.to the minister but I do appreciate his commitment to ensuring that more

:03:16. > :03:30.is done in future to prevent a repeat of the most recent incident.

:03:31. > :03:32.The current rules around business appointments were established to the

:03:33. > :03:36.suspicion that the decisions and statements of serving ministers

:03:37. > :03:41.might be influenced by the hope of future rewards in the form of a job

:03:42. > :03:49.offer or other monetary gains. This regarding these rules deeply

:03:50. > :03:55.undermines public trust in the democratic process and the trust of

:03:56. > :04:00.the work of the member of Parliament and this house itself. It does a

:04:01. > :04:05.disservice to those members that respect the trust praised them by

:04:06. > :04:11.their constituents who spend every hour of their day fighting for their

:04:12. > :04:15.constituents interests. And who ensure that proper attention to the

:04:16. > :04:22.representative role of an MP is given. As a vocation to public

:04:23. > :04:34.service should require. In 2012 and enquiry into the Cobra suggested it

:04:35. > :04:36.should be replaced but the government provided assurances that

:04:37. > :04:43.the current system and the ministerial code was robust enough

:04:44. > :04:48.to prevent behaviour or actions that may add worse bring this house into

:04:49. > :04:53.this weird or further the tragic low standing this profession is sadly

:04:54. > :04:57.held on. Yet I am forced here to date to ask the government again how

:04:58. > :05:03.they will address another case and to give assurances that the current

:05:04. > :05:10.system has not provided yet another opportunity for a conflict of

:05:11. > :05:16.interests to be exploited. To hold on outside interest is perhaps

:05:17. > :05:20.defensible but to hold several time consuming outside commitments that

:05:21. > :05:30.have a deep overlap with the political role of what is best to be

:05:31. > :05:35.a full-time commitment is impossible to defend. Will the Minister confirm

:05:36. > :05:38.what action the government intends to take against ex-ministers who

:05:39. > :05:44.appeared to be in breach of the ministerial code on their failure to

:05:45. > :05:48.seek advice from Acoba before accepting an appointment? And will

:05:49. > :05:57.he consider his government response to the 2012 review into Acoba and

:05:58. > :06:00.provide a stronger system, able to command the confidence of this house

:06:01. > :06:06.and the public because it is what we deserve. I think the honourable

:06:07. > :06:11.gentleman and I have to say I can see why he took this excuse to drag

:06:12. > :06:26.himself away from the Shadow Cabinet awayday... Which I can imagine. I

:06:27. > :06:30.know he will be missing with every single cell in his body and that is

:06:31. > :06:37.why I will give him the short answer he can return as quickly as

:06:38. > :06:42.possible. As the honourable gentleman has rightly said, much has

:06:43. > :06:48.already been done in this important area. The Prime Minister revised the

:06:49. > :06:54.ministerial code when she took office. It is a matter of the

:06:55. > :06:57.concern to her and that is why for the first time the ministerial code

:06:58. > :07:06.of p to it the advice to ministers on leaving office about seeking the

:07:07. > :07:10.advice and assurances or approbation and indeed sense of Acoba: the

:07:11. > :07:13.independent advisory committee on business appointments. But the

:07:14. > :07:17.important thing to say about that process is that it is indeed

:07:18. > :07:20.independent. And I hope he will not mind there for if I do not make any

:07:21. > :07:23.comment about this particular case because they are considering it and

:07:24. > :07:27.it would be wrong for me to prejudice their decision to say one

:07:28. > :07:30.way or another what my view was or what the government view was. Not

:07:31. > :07:37.that we have a view until we have received the independent advice from

:07:38. > :07:45.the independent committee. He makes a broader point about employment

:07:46. > :07:49.outside this house and about outside interest. He will know that his

:07:50. > :07:52.colleagues and also members on this side of the house sitting in the

:07:53. > :07:57.committee for standards in Public life will be looking at this matter

:07:58. > :08:01.again. It is a matter of ongoing concern to the public widely, it has

:08:02. > :08:03.been for many years, and it is something this house will have to

:08:04. > :08:07.grapple with in the years ahead which is why I welcome the committee

:08:08. > :08:10.looking at it again. And I have no doubt this is something that will

:08:11. > :08:14.return to the house at a later point. But the honourable gentleman

:08:15. > :08:19.makes a wider point about vocation and it is one I would like to

:08:20. > :08:23.address directly. It is a very important matter. Members in this

:08:24. > :08:26.house on both sides, no matter whether in opposition or on the

:08:27. > :08:30.government benches, in my expense and I'm sure in his as well, come to

:08:31. > :08:35.this place almost all of them because they believe in public

:08:36. > :08:39.service. And that should inform their decisions, not just about

:08:40. > :08:43.their own interest but about the wider interests of democracy and the

:08:44. > :08:48.representative system that we seek to represent. And I'm sure that all

:08:49. > :08:53.members in the way that they deport themselves today in this discussion

:08:54. > :08:59.will bear that in mind. Mr Speaker... When I heard that this

:09:00. > :09:03.urgent question had been granted I thought it was important to be here.

:09:04. > :09:10.Although unfortunately we have missed the deadline for the Evening

:09:11. > :09:16.Standard. In my view, Mr Speaker, this Parliament is enhanced when we

:09:17. > :09:21.have people of different experience take part in our robust debate and

:09:22. > :09:24.when people who have held senior ministerial office continued to

:09:25. > :09:29.contribute to the decisions we have to make. But I will listen to what

:09:30. > :09:36.my colleagues have to say in this debate. I'm interested to hear.

:09:37. > :09:43.I am not sure there is much more I should or could add to my right

:09:44. > :09:49.honourable friend's points. International happiness today, and

:09:50. > :09:58.we can see some people that are pretty happy...

:09:59. > :10:02.LAUGHTER. But, it does strike me that we have heard it all when we

:10:03. > :10:05.get a minister standing up to give a response to a perfectly reasonable

:10:06. > :10:12.and sensible question and make a joke about it, when the Honourable

:10:13. > :10:19.member thinks it's a matter of mere amusement. You cannot be caught

:10:20. > :10:27.treating the House and the people as a load of... This is disgraceful and

:10:28. > :10:33.many to know what the government is good to do about it. This morning,

:10:34. > :10:37.as with all mornings I had the pleasure of reading assessments do's

:10:38. > :10:39.column in the daily record and all I would say is that there is a

:10:40. > :10:46.tradition in this House of contributing to newspapers, it is

:10:47. > :10:51.important... LAUGHTER And elsewhere, even in the

:10:52. > :10:56.assembly in Hollywood. What it is important to remember in this is it

:10:57. > :11:01.is not what the Speaker has said of the particulars but in the

:11:02. > :11:05.generality of whether members should have interests or employment outside

:11:06. > :11:08.of this House. That is why I'm glad that the committee is looking about

:11:09. > :11:14.in detail and no doubt members across the House will wish to

:11:15. > :11:25.consider the recommendations in dude caught. I draw the House tonight

:11:26. > :11:30.attention... The Minister will be aware that Acoba, sponsored by the

:11:31. > :11:33.Cabinet office is with in the remit of the public administration and

:11:34. > :11:41.constitutional affairs committee of which I am a member, and the

:11:42. > :11:46.chairman is abroad. Our committee has an enquiry into the role of

:11:47. > :11:51.Acoba which is remaining open and on which which we have not reported and

:11:52. > :11:55.our enquiry will take into account these new requirements and we will

:11:56. > :11:59.consider what further efforts to take. Will the Minister agree that

:12:00. > :12:03.it is important that the relevant committees of this House are able to

:12:04. > :12:11.carry out the remit in a copper fashion and make recommendations

:12:12. > :12:16.East on evidence? I completely agree with her and she is right to remind

:12:17. > :12:20.the House that there is an enquiry at the moment and we will look with

:12:21. > :12:25.interest on the enquiry. My honourable friend has already

:12:26. > :12:27.contributed to that enquiry and is required will make further

:12:28. > :12:35.contribution should the enquiry wish. Could I returned the Minister

:12:36. > :12:39.to fill issue of ministerial code, and ask whether he thinks there is

:12:40. > :12:44.any need for reform of the code or for enforcement of the code and if

:12:45. > :12:52.so what would be the mechanism for doing that? The ministerial code

:12:53. > :12:58.determines how ministers should behave and that is serving

:12:59. > :13:02.ministers, it does not have a direct impact on ex-ministers, the reason

:13:03. > :13:07.she will understand. What it does do is to advise ex-ministers of their

:13:08. > :13:10.responsibilities should they leave their position and has been

:13:11. > :13:16.toughened up in that respect in the last few months before this current

:13:17. > :13:20.discussion happen. It is important that the committee, the advisory

:13:21. > :13:24.committee, gives its recommendations before we move on to broader matters

:13:25. > :13:27.of reform, because at the moment the questions are predicated on an

:13:28. > :13:31.answer that I would not like to predetermine.

:13:32. > :13:39.I draw the House's attention to my entry. In considering these matters,

:13:40. > :13:45.Mr Speaker, is it not extremely important that the House always

:13:46. > :13:49.seeks to attract the widest possible cross-section, including retaining

:13:50. > :13:53.the services of those who have held high office? Is it not a matter of

:13:54. > :13:57.regret that the first time, I think in my 30 years on enough in this

:13:58. > :14:05.House, there is no former Prime Minister in either of the two Houses

:14:06. > :14:09.of Parliament? That is the view that this House has traditionally taken,

:14:10. > :14:15.and it is for this House, not the government on its own, to make a

:14:16. > :14:19.decision in the long term about the balance is wishes to have

:14:20. > :14:22.traditionally and to this point this House is determined that it is right

:14:23. > :14:29.from members of Parliament to have the opportunity of having a rider

:14:30. > :14:33.interact. -- a wider. It is not the meat to say at this point. It is

:14:34. > :14:42.important that whatever we are discussing at this juncture... In

:14:43. > :14:48.1523, Cardinal Wolsey became the Bishop of Durham, he never visited

:14:49. > :14:52.his diocese, what steps is the Minister going to take to make sure

:14:53. > :14:59.the honourable members do not stop behaving like medieval clerics

:15:00. > :15:03.rather than modern politicians? Thomas Wolsey Lee was a proud boy of

:15:04. > :15:08.Ipswich and was proud to go back as often as he could. I have no

:15:09. > :15:12.complaints about Thomas Wall Street. I cannot speak for his constituents

:15:13. > :15:17.all for his parishioners. What I can say is that it will be for all of

:15:18. > :15:25.our constituencies in 2022 judged the means and managing of what we

:15:26. > :15:29.discharge our... And it is for us to get electric at this point and put

:15:30. > :15:35.ourselves up for re-election on that basis. Is my right honourable friend

:15:36. > :15:42.able to tell the House, is he aware that the Cabinet office received

:15:43. > :15:46.representations from Her Majesty's opposition about the ink

:15:47. > :15:56.compatibility with the role of Chancellor of the extractor...

:15:57. > :16:01.LAUGHTER I endeavour in everything I do to be as assiduous as my

:16:02. > :16:04.predecessor in my ministerial responsibilities as of yet I have

:16:05. > :16:10.not been able to undercut anything of the kind he suggests. The context

:16:11. > :16:16.of potential overspending in key marginal seats, and at the same time

:16:17. > :16:20.concerns about appointments of MPs in very safe seats, does this not

:16:21. > :16:25.show the stark difference between the parties and candidates' approach

:16:26. > :16:29.to marginal seats and safe seats and show there is a real problem of

:16:30. > :16:35.representations and an issue with first past the post as a system?

:16:36. > :16:39.This is a niche interest the Liberal Democrats all of whom have marginal

:16:40. > :16:45.seats, I know. But it is important to say that, what I do find

:16:46. > :16:49.extraordinary about that question is that there are members on both sides

:16:50. > :16:53.of this House who have very safe seats who are incredibly assiduous

:16:54. > :16:56.in the way the intent of their constituents, members sitting

:16:57. > :17:01.opposite, members behind me who have 60s who are assiduous and it is

:17:02. > :17:07.wrong to Castor Spurgeon is unknown. -- he'll have safe seats. Can I

:17:08. > :17:11.commend the Minister his judicious handling of this question and can I

:17:12. > :17:15.also underlined the importance to all abuzz for respecting

:17:16. > :17:20.constitutional principles, is it not the case that is an independent body

:17:21. > :17:24.and this needs to be respected. Do not believe in a free pass and

:17:25. > :17:27.therefore that proprietors should have the right to appoint who they

:17:28. > :17:30.believe is right to be editor without the executive of anybody

:17:31. > :17:33.else interfering in that decision and is it not as the case that

:17:34. > :17:40.whoever represents the constituencies should be up to its

:17:41. > :17:44.voters not to be position to decree? As ever, my right honourable friend

:17:45. > :17:48.is very good at making clear the liberties that underpin our

:17:49. > :17:52.democracy into often we forget. Those of those who were here at the

:17:53. > :17:58.time remember how difficult it was to restore the reputation of this

:17:59. > :18:03.House after the expenses scandal. Is there therefore not a wider issue

:18:04. > :18:10.here, about the way in which the public look upon what they would

:18:11. > :18:14.describe as the "Political class", and the feeling justified or

:18:15. > :18:18.otherwise that we are all greedy and on the make, we have got to be

:18:19. > :18:28.careful we are not all part of the Saint Roch. The honourable gentleman

:18:29. > :18:32.was in this House where in three... I have to say that he will know of

:18:33. > :18:39.previous examples where this has happened. I do think it is important

:18:40. > :18:43.that we actually judge this situation in the context of whether

:18:44. > :18:46.we think that members of Parliament should have employment outside.

:18:47. > :18:50.There are arguments on both side and it is important that we do not

:18:51. > :18:58.reduce this to an ad hominem attack which would create buried at policy.

:18:59. > :19:01.May I gently say to the honourable member that it has never been

:19:02. > :19:06.suggested that during the five or six weeks that he was in Copeland as

:19:07. > :19:10.Labour Party organiser for the campaign, nobody ever suggested that

:19:11. > :19:19.he abandoned or did anything wrong by way of his constituents? Mr

:19:20. > :19:23.Speaker, across this House members of all parties worked extremely hard

:19:24. > :19:29.and especially when you have the ultimate second job as a minister,

:19:30. > :19:32.as the Secretary of State, as Chancellor of the Exchequer and also

:19:33. > :19:37.as a Prime Minister, would my right honourable friend agree with that

:19:38. > :19:42.anyone who does any of the work in addition to their duties as a member

:19:43. > :19:46.of Parliament actually brings huge amounts of experience into this

:19:47. > :19:53.chamber that makes all abuzz represent everyone in this country

:19:54. > :19:58.even better and would he also agree with me that the ultimate judge on

:19:59. > :20:04.this are the constituents who at the ballot box computers out of the do

:20:05. > :20:11.not like what we do. I thank my right honourable friend and she is

:20:12. > :20:13.right to say that ultimately the judge of our behaviour and

:20:14. > :20:20.performance would be constituents. There are very strong arguments to

:20:21. > :20:25.allow people to have outside influences and the other way but

:20:26. > :20:29.they need to be reconciled with more time and more thought than would be

:20:30. > :20:33.deserved at an urgent question. I repeat my earlier point that I

:20:34. > :20:37.really do believe that all abuzz duty not just to our own interests

:20:38. > :20:44.women make these decisions actually to the wider reputation of our

:20:45. > :20:55.democracy. -- that all of us have a duty not just to our own interests.

:20:56. > :20:59.At risk of upsetting the new editor of my city's newspaper, I think

:21:00. > :21:04.there is an air of complete unreality of some of the exchanges

:21:05. > :21:08.this afternoon. The trust of the public in both politicians and media

:21:09. > :21:13.has never been so low. What it do to the trust of the public in

:21:14. > :21:18.politicians with the idea that people could have a number of roles

:21:19. > :21:22.including editing in newspaper, what is it deeper the reputation of media

:21:23. > :21:27.in a near our fake news to have someone editing a newspaper who has

:21:28. > :21:35.no qualifications to do so? And I would ask the Minister, in relation

:21:36. > :21:39.to the question of the honourable member for whole North about

:21:40. > :21:44.apprenticeship bonding I know that I want a printed gene bonding in

:21:45. > :21:46.London and so would be editor of my local newspaper, but what would the

:21:47. > :21:52.right honourable member Bottas and think? We cannot ask ministers to

:21:53. > :21:57.speculate about what individual right honourable member 's would

:21:58. > :22:01.think. What ever the conflict may be I am the determinant of what is an

:22:02. > :22:06.orderly question and I would ask the honourable gentleman to graciously

:22:07. > :22:10.accept that I'm trying to do the right thing in balancing different

:22:11. > :22:13.considerations, but we must adhere to order. The Minister is a text

:22:14. > :22:17.just fell out and he will answer in a way that is orderly and not in a

:22:18. > :22:24.way that isn't, I know. I thank the honourable gentleman, he is incisive

:22:25. > :22:29.in a way yes his question and I agree with him that we have a

:22:30. > :22:33.challenge, all abuzz in raising the reputation of our democratic

:22:34. > :22:38.institutions. That all of ours. That would not be served by a minister of

:22:39. > :22:42.the Crown coming to the dispatch box on Monday to give a new policy

:22:43. > :22:47.announcement just to suit the particular agenda of the day. It is

:22:48. > :22:51.a matter for the House to come to a wider consideration of whether they

:22:52. > :22:55.think it is right or wrong people to have outside interests, I think

:22:56. > :23:00.there are arguments on both sides. In the meantime, all need to

:23:01. > :23:10.consider our individual duties to the wider body politic in the way

:23:11. > :23:14.that we behave. But he has a justified reputation for his

:23:15. > :23:19.devotion and assiduous work that he was on his ministerial duties, as it

:23:20. > :23:30.diminished in anyway his ability to serve his constituents? It has not,

:23:31. > :23:35.in any way at all. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the Minister please

:23:36. > :23:39.referred to the advisory committee, the dilemma that exists when a

:23:40. > :23:46.former minister is given a particular appointment on the basis

:23:47. > :23:49.of his geographical location, but then subsequently secures a further

:23:50. > :23:57.appointment which flatly contradicts the interest that he was meant to

:23:58. > :24:03.serve but that previous appointment? Pana London standard editor look

:24:04. > :24:08.after the Northern Powerhouse? Haase can a. That is not for me to make

:24:09. > :24:11.that determination it is but the independent advisory committee and

:24:12. > :24:15.they will make a recommendation to my right honourable friend. I know

:24:16. > :24:19.he wants me to say something controversial, but it would be wrong

:24:20. > :24:23.to undermine the process which is going through at the moment in the

:24:24. > :24:24.committee and it would be wrong for me to prejudice that decision by

:24:25. > :24:35.saying one thing or the other. Many people in this House have

:24:36. > :24:39.second jobs, yours is speak of this House, and you do it assiduously

:24:40. > :24:49.while being able to serve your constituents. Could the Minister

:24:50. > :24:53.please help me to understand which jobs would be considered acceptable

:24:54. > :25:01.by the government or by another statutory body? Many people write

:25:02. > :25:11.books, own land and property. Should they therefore sell into monastic

:25:12. > :25:16.simplicity and become a political class or should they represent the

:25:17. > :25:25.economy and people of this country by maintaining an intact body of

:25:26. > :25:32.effort with other people? I congratulate... We must have a fair

:25:33. > :25:36.hearing to members on both sides and to the Minister. Earlier members

:25:37. > :25:42.were moaning that the Minister needed to speak up a bit. The

:25:43. > :25:50.Minister is immensely courteous. The House should be courteous to the

:25:51. > :25:57.Minister. My congratulations to my honourable friend the moving himself

:25:58. > :26:07.up and speaking order of the debate. We might need an extra bottle of

:26:08. > :26:13.water. Thank you. Welcome to the Public Accounts Committee. We are

:26:14. > :26:22.here to look at Ambulance Services on the back of a study done by the

:26:23. > :26:27.National Audit Office which... It is one this House is right to discuss,

:26:28. > :26:37.should do so with time and the dignity, and I would suggest it is

:26:38. > :26:41.not the right place to do it now. Is the Minister aware that these are

:26:42. > :26:46.roughly the same kind of arguments emanating from both sides of the

:26:47. > :26:53.House as they were 40 years ago when we attempted to set up the register?

:26:54. > :26:58.It has not changed except, over the years, there has been a desire by

:26:59. > :27:05.the majority members to ensure that the register and the duties of MPs

:27:06. > :27:14.are strengthened. The real question to be answered now, how can a

:27:15. > :27:23.full-time politician be a full-time editor of the daily newspaper? It is

:27:24. > :27:28.one of the many reasons why Ed I admire the honourable gentleman. He

:27:29. > :27:30.walked out of the pit, stricter displays, and gave an experience to

:27:31. > :27:35.the House of Commons that few people on both benches would be able to

:27:36. > :27:39.provide. It is of enormous rally to this House. I am not in a position

:27:40. > :27:45.to make a judgment that he invites me to make. I would ask that the

:27:46. > :27:49.committee on business interests provide the Independent report first

:27:50. > :27:53.before we judge this particular incident and that he contributes his

:27:54. > :27:59.thoughts to the wider considerations. I believe that there

:28:00. > :28:01.are strong arguments in his favour and strong arguments on the other

:28:02. > :28:05.side and they should be discussed. As my right honourable friend has

:28:06. > :28:10.said, there is a fine balance between those who have outside

:28:11. > :28:15.interests and those who do not. I believe that this House is enriched

:28:16. > :28:22.by those who have outside interests. And I further believe that they do

:28:23. > :28:30.not enhance this House. That may I say to the honourable member, a

:28:31. > :28:31.Labour Party swearword when he talks with his faux outrage? Can I remind

:28:32. > :28:49.him of Tony Blair? Those two words on the one likely to

:28:50. > :28:55.anger the benches opposite the members on our own site. I think it

:28:56. > :28:58.is very difficult to frame this debate by looking at particular

:28:59. > :29:05.examples because we have to look at the generality. There are 650 MPs.

:29:06. > :29:09.Many have different interests outside. Some are in professions and

:29:10. > :29:13.summoned the charitable sector. When we go down this road, we will have

:29:14. > :29:23.to judge which things we judge to be more valuable than others. That is a

:29:24. > :29:30.very difficult path to travel down. Tomorrow, I have meetings in this

:29:31. > :29:33.place from 8:30am until 8:30pm, including two select committees, and

:29:34. > :29:39.we have several ex-ministers chairing committees and doing an

:29:40. > :29:42.excellent job. Is that not where the expertise should be directed, to

:29:43. > :29:48.scrutinising the work of the Executive and chewing a job here and

:29:49. > :29:50.not somewhere else? I am sure that my right honourable friend will

:29:51. > :29:57.continue to contribute to this House. I have got no doubt that he

:29:58. > :30:02.will continue to do so over the months ahead. It is right we all

:30:03. > :30:07.contribute in our own ways, the way we best discharge our talents, and I

:30:08. > :30:16.would hope that would be the same for all MPs. The honourable member

:30:17. > :30:24.for Tatton's honourable friends have all jumped to his defence and used

:30:25. > :30:29.the argument that this interest will help the member state in Parliament.

:30:30. > :30:37.It quite clearly is not contributing to the House. The Minister also says

:30:38. > :30:43.that people standing in the face for re-election but unfortunately,

:30:44. > :30:49.you've got safe seats with voters do not have a choice, so will the

:30:50. > :30:53.government look at this? The former leader of the honourable gentleman's

:30:54. > :31:01.party writes a column for a newspaper. I am not sure... I am not

:31:02. > :31:04.saying that is right or wrong. The reaction suggests they may feel

:31:05. > :31:10.guilty about putting the question. The point is, this is not an easy or

:31:11. > :31:18.binary decision to come to because when is it to March, one, two, five?

:31:19. > :31:24.This is a decision that the House should come to after a long and

:31:25. > :31:28.careful thought and it would be good if people actually expressed in

:31:29. > :31:31.those terms rather than expressing outrage when indeed, on their own

:31:32. > :31:38.side, they have their own members who have outside interests. Given

:31:39. > :31:43.some of the contributions for the benches opposite, it is a shame the

:31:44. > :31:48.honourable member does not still dish up ministerial jobs because a

:31:49. > :31:54.few of them would deserve that. But this issue of public concern is very

:31:55. > :31:58.widespread and disaffection with the political process, I would say, is

:31:59. > :32:05.even more acute in the North of England. What am I to say to my

:32:06. > :32:09.constituents who feel time again that, despite all the talk of the

:32:10. > :32:18.Northern Powerhouse, we had done the London? I share her concern. It is

:32:19. > :32:26.one that together we will have to rebuild. Genuinely, if we conduct

:32:27. > :32:30.politics in a way which is disrespectful in order to get the

:32:31. > :32:37.day's headlines the next day, we will only continue to undermine the

:32:38. > :32:41.politics that we all seek to serve. That is why we need to understand

:32:42. > :32:47.this calmly, dispassionately and make sure we come to the right

:32:48. > :32:52.decision. That is why we are devolving power to Manchester,

:32:53. > :32:58.precisely so we can get that kind of representation she is calling for an

:32:59. > :33:01.as conservatives we are keen to see that devolution happen, and I hope

:33:02. > :33:07.she is happy with that result when it finally comes to pass over the

:33:08. > :33:11.next few months. The minister seize this moment to congratulate all

:33:12. > :33:17.those colleagues on all sides of the House who serve as reservists and

:33:18. > :33:20.practices doctors and nurses? Does this not illustrate the opposition

:33:21. > :33:25.is more concerned with the nature of the employment rather than the

:33:26. > :33:34.employment itself? My honourable friend, my neighbour, is a

:33:35. > :33:38.practising doctor. My honourable friend is a practising nurse. These

:33:39. > :33:42.are two people who bring particular expertise and skills to our chamber,

:33:43. > :33:47.which would not otherwise be there. There are good reasons and arguments

:33:48. > :33:50.for that but there are reasons and arguments to the country. They are

:33:51. > :33:54.balanced and we need to have that discussion and come to a conclusion

:33:55. > :34:02.because, whatever conclusion we come will have profound implications for

:34:03. > :34:08.the way our democracy functions. I do not own any broad rolling acres,

:34:09. > :34:16.sadly. But I do have some skin in the game is the author of the red

:34:17. > :34:20.column entitled pound notes. However, I am concerned, where as I

:34:21. > :34:24.would not wish to attack anybody in this House nor would I be clement is

:34:25. > :34:27.the former leader of my party, I feel the Minister should perhaps

:34:28. > :34:31.have a quiet word with one of his colleagues about the ministerial

:34:32. > :34:35.code and the actual job that Members of Parliament are doing. 20% of the

:34:36. > :34:40.work comes into my office probably should not be done by an MP, so can

:34:41. > :34:45.we get some good out of this sorry business and look at first

:34:46. > :34:49.principles, go back to basics? I agree with much of what the

:34:50. > :34:54.honourable gentleman has said and as ever he speaks a great deal of

:34:55. > :35:00.sense. And a former age, he would've been granted many thousands of acres

:35:01. > :35:10.just for making the point. I declare an interest as a former NCT J

:35:11. > :35:12.qualified journalist and a member of the National Union of Journalists,

:35:13. > :35:19.which I hope the right honourable member of Tampa and will join in

:35:20. > :35:23.short course. Much has been made of the potential political conflict of

:35:24. > :35:25.interest but would they also like to address potential commercial

:35:26. > :35:28.conflicts of interest, especially given the Treasury is one of the

:35:29. > :35:37.biggest spenders and newspaper advertising? Would he published

:35:38. > :35:41.details of that expenditure? I remember the honourable gentleman's

:35:42. > :35:46.contributions to BBC Look East with interest. He is right to say the

:35:47. > :35:49.government spends money on newspaper advertising. It does so

:35:50. > :35:56.independently and as arranged by civil servants. Indeed, a colleague

:35:57. > :36:00.of his asked a Parliamentary question about the nature of the

:36:01. > :36:06.spend of the last few years and I provided the answer, which is in the

:36:07. > :36:11.library. When the former Chancellor Thomas does a surplus in 2020, none

:36:12. > :36:15.of us were expecting him to go about it quite in this manner, but I am

:36:16. > :36:20.concerned that the right honourable member maybe overstretching himself.

:36:21. > :36:25.Will it take account of the European working Time regulations in ensuring

:36:26. > :36:34.he is not damaging women's health by working excessive hours? I am not

:36:35. > :36:40.sure any of us complies faithfully to the European working Time

:36:41. > :36:43.directive. My right honourable friend was an industrious man as

:36:44. > :36:47.Chancellor of the Exchequer. No doubt he will continue to be

:36:48. > :36:53.industrious in whatever form he wishes to take. The Minister said

:36:54. > :36:58.earlier that day by the rumble member had not received the advice

:36:59. > :37:01.was stopped Cani confirm that honourable and right Honourable

:37:02. > :37:05.members are not in breach of the rules by announcing positions until

:37:06. > :37:08.they have received advice? Cani also confirmed they have no teeth to

:37:09. > :37:16.enforce rules that have been breached? It is the act to make

:37:17. > :37:20.recommendations and conditions, and they often enforce conditions. In

:37:21. > :37:26.the period leading up to 2010 and just after, of the 43 ministers who

:37:27. > :37:31.made applications to take outside employment, only 12 were allowed to

:37:32. > :37:35.do so without conditions. They are able to provide conditions. It is

:37:36. > :37:39.for them to judge specifically in this case had they feel the process

:37:40. > :37:43.has been undertaken. They will take into account all the evidence and

:37:44. > :37:47.will publish that on the Internet very soon and honourable lady will

:37:48. > :37:53.be of the seared, as will everyone else. Many people will think that

:37:54. > :37:57.parliamentarians, before the end of this place, should have sufficient

:37:58. > :38:00.life experience. But does the Minister believe they should be an

:38:01. > :38:05.upper limit on the number of outside jobs that MPs are allowed to take?

:38:06. > :38:12.That is something the committee is thinking about and it is entirely

:38:13. > :38:17.right that the House should do so. I want to point out to her that one of

:38:18. > :38:21.the reasons I believe we are in this situation the colleagues of hers and

:38:22. > :38:27.mine have identified, politicians being held in low esteem, is the

:38:28. > :38:32.culture that grew up over the 15 years of immediate answers to

:38:33. > :38:37.stories in the press just in order for the government to show that it

:38:38. > :38:42.was ahead of some media game. That's not the way to get faith and

:38:43. > :38:46.politics or trust in politicians. We need to be considerate and

:38:47. > :38:52.deliberative and think carefully about the problems in front of us,

:38:53. > :38:54.including members of this House who should discuss this dispassionately

:38:55. > :39:01.and calmly and with dignity in the weeks and months ahead.

:39:02. > :39:08.I've only got one job, representing the people of the City of Chester.

:39:09. > :39:15.Can the Minister confirm or comment on the fact that... Should not be

:39:16. > :39:23.accepted formally or announced until they have announced the conditions

:39:24. > :39:26.of that job. I think we'll look at this particular case and make their

:39:27. > :39:29.judgment on it and the process that's happened independently. I

:39:30. > :39:33.think he won't mind if I don't make a point at this stage because it

:39:34. > :39:36.will prejudice what they say. Let's see what they say and we will bend

:39:37. > :39:39.no doubt want to return to the matter, because this house will

:39:40. > :39:47.continue to be interested in it. Thank you. Point of order. Through

:39:48. > :39:50.you Mr Speaker, may I thank the opposition for rating this point. I

:39:51. > :39:54.think they've done a tremendous job in uniting this side of our house

:39:55. > :39:59.behind our right honourable friend the member for Tatham. The

:40:00. > :40:05.honourable gentleman knows perfectly well that is not a point of order,

:40:06. > :40:11.but he's made his own point in his own way and it is on the record. And

:40:12. > :40:22.we'll leave it there. Order. In a moment I shall call Alison Pulis to

:40:23. > :40:30.make and application for leave to propose a debate on an important

:40:31. > :40:34.matter... In a moment I will call if the honourable gentleman would be

:40:35. > :40:37.kind enough to do me the courtesy... I will call Alison to make an

:40:38. > :40:41.application for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important

:40:42. > :40:44.matter that should have urgent consideration under standing order

:40:45. > :40:51.number 24. The honourable member has up to three minutes in which to make

:40:52. > :40:55.such an application. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek to propose how

:40:56. > :41:00.should debate an important matter that should have urgent

:41:01. > :41:06.consideration, the introduction of the sex exemption in terms of tax

:41:07. > :41:14.credits, which I will refer to as the rape clause. Since it was

:41:15. > :41:17.proposed in the summer budget 2015I have pursued this matter

:41:18. > :41:21.relentlessly. I have used every means available to me through

:41:22. > :41:24.questions on debates on no fewer than 25 occasions in this house. The

:41:25. > :41:29.Government should by now have had adequate time to either we find or

:41:30. > :41:33.buy my preference abandoned this deeply flawed policy. The reason I

:41:34. > :41:37.am calling for this debate is there are deep gaps which will leave

:41:38. > :41:41.vulnerable women expose. The Government has sought to reassure me

:41:42. > :41:47.many times that women making a claim under the rape clause will be

:41:48. > :41:54.treated sensitively, that they can go through third-party professionals

:41:55. > :41:56.like nurses or social workers. Answers to written Parliamentary

:41:57. > :42:00.questions I have tabled an expose there has been no training, none, in

:42:01. > :42:05.domestic violence or in the application of the policy to these

:42:06. > :42:11.660,000 third-party professionals with the policy due to come into

:42:12. > :42:14.force very soon on the 6th of April. This puts vulnerable women seeking

:42:15. > :42:18.to make a claim presenting herself to a GP, nurse or social worker to

:42:19. > :42:27.reveal her third child was conceived as a result of rape. For that

:42:28. > :42:32.professional to establish this without training, what kind of

:42:33. > :42:35.response can she expect to get Tristram Hunt the Government are

:42:36. > :42:39.still saying today that they will bring forward guidance. When? I

:42:40. > :42:44.remind houses policy goes live on the 6th of April, in the middle of

:42:45. > :42:47.recess. How will we know, as parliamentarians, if the Government

:42:48. > :42:51.has done what it says it will do? I have also had information shared

:42:52. > :42:55.with meats by a member of HMRC staff who wishes to remain anonymous. This

:42:56. > :42:59.member of staff told me the sensitive unit that will deal with

:43:00. > :43:03.rape clause claims will not go live until the 6th of April. Until then

:43:04. > :43:06.HMRC staff are crossing their fingers they don't get enquiries

:43:07. > :43:12.from the public about a sensitive issue for which they have not been

:43:13. > :43:15.trained. Utterly unacceptable. The Government has been dodging scrutiny

:43:16. > :43:19.on this issue from the start, burying this at the back of the 2016

:43:20. > :43:23.budget. Being Fulston to hold a consultation they didn't want to

:43:24. > :43:29.run, sneaking out the response to that consultation during Trump's

:43:30. > :43:34.inauguration and laying statutory instrument three last week to avoid

:43:35. > :43:37.debate in this house. I feel compelled to appeal to you, Mr

:43:38. > :43:41.Speaker, to grant this emergency debate. Women who have faced the

:43:42. > :43:46.worst trauma of their lives, being raped on becoming pregnant as a

:43:47. > :43:50.result, the most serious and dangerous sexual assaults on being

:43:51. > :43:54.forced to relive that trauma just to claim tax credits. It's a despicable

:43:55. > :44:00.invasion of privacy. I think we owe it to these women and their children

:44:01. > :44:07.to hold these ministers to account. Leave to propose a debate on a

:44:08. > :44:10.matter that should have urgent consideration, the introduction of

:44:11. > :44:13.the nonconsensual exemption in terms of tax credits. I've listened

:44:14. > :44:17.carefully to the application from the honourable member but I'm not

:44:18. > :44:21.did this matter is proper to be discussed under standing order

:44:22. > :44:26.number 24. The standing order does not permit me to give my reasons to

:44:27. > :44:30.the House. I shall therefore simply observe that a prayer has been

:44:31. > :44:38.tabled against the regulations and I would hope and anticipate that the

:44:39. > :44:45.usual channels will find time for it to be debated.

:44:46. > :44:50.Order. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day.

:44:51. > :45:01.Citizens Courts Bill, second reading. I called the Secretary of

:45:02. > :45:07.State for Justice, Liz Truss. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the

:45:08. > :45:12.Bill now be read a second time. This Bill makes the most significant

:45:13. > :45:18.changes to the prisons act 1952 since it past 65 years ago. For the

:45:19. > :45:22.first time it will be clear that the Government isn't just responsible

:45:23. > :45:27.for housing prisoners, it will also be clear that a key purpose of

:45:28. > :45:33.prisons is to reform prisoners and prepare them for their return to the

:45:34. > :45:36.community. This means getting prisoners off drugs, into work and

:45:37. > :45:42.improving their education whilst they are in prison. Together with

:45:43. > :45:46.greater powers for governors, performance tables and sharper

:45:47. > :45:51.inspections, more people will leave prisons preformed on this look cut

:45:52. > :45:54.the 15 billion cost to society of reoffending that we all face every

:45:55. > :45:59.year. I will give way to the honourable gentleman.

:46:00. > :46:03.People want to be angry about prisoners and say it is all their

:46:04. > :46:10.own fault but a large proportion of people in prison have suffered major

:46:11. > :46:14.brain traumas through fights or various other different means.

:46:15. > :46:17.Actually the support that is available in the wider community

:46:18. > :46:22.through the health service can fully rehabilitate them and bring them

:46:23. > :46:24.back into society but the support in prison is still very weak. Will the

:46:25. > :46:28.Government be doing more to tackle that?

:46:29. > :46:34.The honourable member is absolutely right, that many people in prison to

:46:35. > :46:38.suffer from serious issues like the ones he raises. That's why we going

:46:39. > :46:43.to give prison governors to commissioning powers over health

:46:44. > :46:47.services in their prisons, so they can design around the needs of those

:46:48. > :46:53.offenders, helping them get the treatment they need so they can live

:46:54. > :46:58.a law for life once they leaves prison. This Bill will also usher in

:46:59. > :47:01.a new era for our courts, modern sizing a process that remains

:47:02. > :47:07.fundamentally unchanged from the Victorian era. -- modernising

:47:08. > :47:11.process. Our reforms create a system fit for the 21st century. This will

:47:12. > :47:15.provide better protection for vulnerable victims and witnesses, it

:47:16. > :47:20.will improve access to justice for ordinary walking -- working people,

:47:21. > :47:23.will be able to access the courts and a simpler and more efficient

:47:24. > :47:27.way. It will also promote our reputation for global legal

:47:28. > :47:30.excellence on the best place to do business. I will now talk through

:47:31. > :47:34.the detail of the Bill but first I will give way to the honourable

:47:35. > :47:38.gentleman. Can I say I welcome the access to

:47:39. > :47:43.justice proposals contained in the Bill. I would urge her to discuss

:47:44. > :47:45.with the devolved administrations, in particular Northern Ireland,

:47:46. > :47:49.hopefully when we get a government up and running again, that the

:47:50. > :47:52.process there will be rolled out to Northern Ireland that we can share

:47:53. > :47:56.in the expertise and the expense of that system that you have put in

:47:57. > :48:00.place. I thank the honourable member for

:48:01. > :48:03.his point. I understand he's had a demonstration of our system and I

:48:04. > :48:09.look forward to discussing it with him further, about how we can share

:48:10. > :48:14.best practice. Prisons rightly punish those who break the law. But

:48:15. > :48:19.they should be a place of safety and reform, where prisoners can turn

:48:20. > :48:24.their lives around and lead a law for life outside prison. Sadly that

:48:25. > :48:28.is not the case at the moment. The levels of violence in our prisons

:48:29. > :48:32.are too high, as last week's shocking attack on the young officer

:48:33. > :48:36.at Oak Hill shows and I'm sure the thoughts of all of those in this

:48:37. > :48:41.house with him and his family at this very difficult time.

:48:42. > :48:47.We also have very worrying levels of self harm and deaths in custody. The

:48:48. > :48:51.prison safety and reform white paper which I launched in November, set

:48:52. > :48:56.out a clear plan, combining immediate action to increase

:48:57. > :49:00.staffing level and tracking drugs, drones and phones with radical

:49:01. > :49:03.reforms to get offenders off drugs, into work and away from crime for

:49:04. > :49:07.good. I will take some intervention in a minute once I've made a bit of

:49:08. > :49:12.progress. Whilst there is much we can do and are doing operationally,

:49:13. > :49:16.part one of this Bill addresses areas that require primary

:49:17. > :49:22.legislation. First of all the Bill enshrines into law the purpose of

:49:23. > :49:27.prison and it sets out the prisons must aim to Duque four things. First

:49:28. > :49:32.they must protect the public, holding prisoners securely is a core

:49:33. > :49:36.job at the prisons, protecting the public from the risk that offenders

:49:37. > :49:43.pose an prisons must do all they can to prevent security failures.

:49:44. > :49:46.Secondly, prisons must reform and rehabilitate offenders. They must

:49:47. > :49:51.give them the opportunities to allow them to turn their back on crime,

:49:52. > :49:55.which means tackling drug and alcohol addiction. It means tackling

:49:56. > :49:59.the mental health issues. It means giving offenders opportunities to

:50:00. > :50:02.work and get training and apprenticeships whilst there are in

:50:03. > :50:06.prison and also to improve their English and maths and to maintain

:50:07. > :50:10.family ties. I will give way to my honourable friend.

:50:11. > :50:13.I am most grateful to my right honourable friend. May I say how

:50:14. > :50:17.much I welcome this legislation, which seems to me to be going

:50:18. > :50:22.exactly in the right direction, in terms of reforming prisons. But she

:50:23. > :50:26.will also be aware that ultimately the ability to deliver these

:50:27. > :50:30.programmes is going to be intimately dependent on reducing prison

:50:31. > :50:35.overcrowding. Because without it, we've seen on many previous

:50:36. > :50:38.occasions that however good the programmes, they found as the

:50:39. > :50:42.prisons come under strain. Can she keep that in mind and is anything

:50:43. > :50:44.she can tell the House in the course of the second reading of what

:50:45. > :50:50.strategy she might have in mind to try and address that issue?

:50:51. > :50:54.I thank my honourable friend for his question. We have of course held the

:50:55. > :50:59.prison population stable for the last six years. There are some

:51:00. > :51:04.areas, such as sex offences, where we've seen sentences rise and I

:51:05. > :51:07.think that is right, because those are serious crimes that weren't

:51:08. > :51:11.receiving the level of punishment that we would expect. However, as

:51:12. > :51:17.I've said before and I made in the speech a few weeks ago, I think

:51:18. > :51:21.there is more we can do to prevent people committing those crimes that

:51:22. > :51:25.lead to custody, by tackling issues earlier on, whether that is drug

:51:26. > :51:29.addiction, alcohol abuse, whether it is not being in education and

:51:30. > :51:35.training. I look forward to saying more about that in due course. I

:51:36. > :51:38.will give way. I'm grateful to the Lord Chancellor

:51:39. > :51:44.for giving way. Nobody will disagree with the statements she is made

:51:45. > :51:47.relating to clause one of the Bill, they are sensible and sound. She

:51:48. > :51:52.must recognise all the indicators are rising on self harm, assault and

:51:53. > :51:55.every other indicator we have on there are six and a half thousand

:51:56. > :52:00.fewer officers than seven years ago. Could she tell us how many officers

:52:01. > :52:04.she is recruited to date, how many she expects to recruit and how she

:52:05. > :52:10.can keep a prison population as it was in 2010 with few officers?

:52:11. > :52:14.As the honourable gentleman knows we have a programme to recruit 2500

:52:15. > :52:19.additional officers across the estate. I can confirm we've started

:52:20. > :52:24.in ten of the most challenging prisons. We've now successfully

:52:25. > :52:28.secured those complement of officers in those first ten prisons, which we

:52:29. > :52:33.said we would do by the end of March. We now have a record number

:52:34. > :52:39.of officers in training, over 700, but I don't and I it's a challenging

:52:40. > :52:43.task to recruit those officers. But as the honourable gentleman knows

:52:44. > :52:46.from his experience as Prisons Minister, it's vital we do that

:52:47. > :52:48.because it's only by having qualified and skilled officers that

:52:49. > :52:53.we will help turn those lives around. I'm not just interested in

:52:54. > :52:57.numbers. I'm also interested in the career prospects we give officers,

:52:58. > :53:01.the additional training we give officers and that's why we are

:53:02. > :53:07.putting in an additional 2000 senior officer posts across the country.

:53:08. > :53:13.Those will be paid upward of ?30,000 and those will reward officers who

:53:14. > :53:15.got additional training in areas like mental health. But as the

:53:16. > :53:17.honourable gentleman realises, it takes time to recruit and train

:53:18. > :53:21.those officers. But am absolutely determined to do that because

:53:22. > :53:25.alongside these reforms, that is what is going to make the difference

:53:26. > :53:32.on the ground in our prisons, having trained officers that can make a

:53:33. > :53:38.difference. I will give way. I think I can help with an idea. 10%

:53:39. > :53:43.of the prison population, actually it's more like 15%, foreign

:53:44. > :53:46.prisoners. The ones from Albania, Jamaica, Somalia, Nigeria, they make

:53:47. > :53:50.up about 20% of foreign prisoners. Surely we can have arrangements

:53:51. > :53:53.whereby these prisoners are sent back to their own friendly

:53:54. > :53:58.countries, including Commonwealth countries it might help with

:53:59. > :54:01.arrangements for both countries. My honourable friend is absolutely

:54:02. > :54:05.right. I'm pleased to say a record number of foreign offenders were

:54:06. > :54:08.sent back last year, but we are doing even more on this and are

:54:09. > :54:12.making progress. My honourable friend the Prisons Minister is

:54:13. > :54:17.working on that very hard. I will give way to my honourable friend. I

:54:18. > :54:22.am very grateful to the right honourable lady for giving way. Can

:54:23. > :54:25.I also welcomed the Bill, particularly the emphasis that is

:54:26. > :54:28.put under the purpose of prison. She will be aware one of the most

:54:29. > :54:32.successful young offender programmes is that it's run by National Grid,

:54:33. > :54:35.which has been going for many years and they now have 80 partner

:54:36. > :54:41.companies working with them. They have got the reoffending rate down

:54:42. > :54:45.from the average, which is way over 50% to 7%. In particular some of

:54:46. > :54:50.their partner companies have been working really hard with Brixton

:54:51. > :54:55.prison with this release on temporary licence. I understand

:54:56. > :54:59.Brixton has recently been removed from the road to yell regime and is

:55:00. > :55:04.causing some difficulty because there are no other prisons in London

:55:05. > :55:08.that satisfy those criteria. -- ROTL. Which she look into this and

:55:09. > :55:12.think about putting this on the face of the Bill because this ROTL scheme

:55:13. > :55:18.is really working for young offenders. The honourable lady was

:55:19. > :55:22.keen to prove that her intervention was erudite and compressive and in

:55:23. > :55:25.that mission I think the honourable lady has been successful, or even

:55:26. > :55:28.the right honourable lady. I thank my right honourable friend

:55:29. > :55:34.for her point. She is absolutely right that it's by getting employers

:55:35. > :55:39.who want to employ people on the outside and getting them to train

:55:40. > :55:43.offenders on the inside that will help create that path into work that

:55:44. > :55:48.reduces reoffending. I've been to Brixton and seen the work they are

:55:49. > :55:52.doing with offenders, which is fantastic. I know that the questions

:55:53. > :55:57.she posed is already being addressed by my right honourable friend the

:55:58. > :56:02.Prisons Minister. We won the ability for people to be able to get that

:56:03. > :56:07.experience in work, so they can leave prison into a job and lead a

:56:08. > :56:12.lawful life. We are also launching a strategy unemployment, to try and

:56:13. > :56:16.get more employers like National Grid and Simpsons on Holford that

:56:17. > :56:19.already do fantastic work, to sign up to employing those ex-offenders

:56:20. > :56:25.because that benefits all of us. I will give way.

:56:26. > :56:33.She has mentioned already how important staffing is. It is to be

:56:34. > :56:37.welcomed, the roll-out of a 1-6 ratio in public sector prisons. What

:56:38. > :56:40.I do not understand is why that would not apply to private prisons

:56:41. > :56:45.because they deal with the same challenges as those in the public

:56:46. > :56:52.sector. I thank the Honourable lady. I should clarify that what is is a

:56:53. > :56:56.1-6 caseload. What that means is each officer will have

:56:57. > :57:01.responsibility for six offenders, which they are in charge of making

:57:02. > :57:07.sure the offenders are safe but encouraging them to reform while

:57:08. > :57:10.they are imprisoned. I tell her that their head of the prison service is

:57:11. > :57:15.in discussions with the private sector prisons to make sure they

:57:16. > :57:21.also have access to the same level of staffing. We want that to apply

:57:22. > :57:25.in both the private and public sector. I do need to make a bit more

:57:26. > :57:31.progress, otherwise I will not get through this in time. I am feeling

:57:32. > :57:37.generous. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful

:57:38. > :57:42.to the Lord Chancellor in giving way. She has set out this aspiration

:57:43. > :57:47.before. I wonder if maybe now she can set out a timescale as to when

:57:48. > :57:50.it will be we will get the ratios and the imbalance between the public

:57:51. > :57:56.and private sector corrected. When will that happen? I can assure the

:57:57. > :58:00.honourable gentleman it is on the same timescale as the public sector

:58:01. > :58:05.programme, so over the next year and a half is when we will deliver that.

:58:06. > :58:10.I will give way to my honourable friend. Thank you for giving way. I

:58:11. > :58:15.commend her for much of what she is doing in this bill. I was just

:58:16. > :58:20.curious as to why, when she makes great pains to stress the importance

:58:21. > :58:23.of mental health and the links with reoffending and the importance of

:58:24. > :58:29.reducing self harm and other issues in prisons, why, when one of the

:58:30. > :58:34.fundamental duties is not to promote and protect the mental health and

:58:35. > :58:38.well-being of prisoners? I know my honourable friend takes a strong

:58:39. > :58:42.interest in this area. I can assure him in terms of the commissioning

:58:43. > :58:45.arrangements for governors, they will get those powers to specify

:58:46. > :58:50.mental health treatment in their own prisons. At the moment, governors

:58:51. > :58:54.have complained to me that mental health services are only available

:58:55. > :58:58.five days a week and that is an issue when someone arrives in the

:58:59. > :59:01.prison at the weekend with serious health issues. What they will be

:59:02. > :59:08.able to do is co-commissioners services. Under the categories of

:59:09. > :59:13.reforming and rehabilitating offenders, we have also announced

:59:14. > :59:20.there will be specific performance metrics and some of those will be

:59:21. > :59:24.covering health issues. We will be saying more about that in due

:59:25. > :59:30.course. It is part of the reform measures we are putting in place and

:59:31. > :59:34.it will be covered in the specific performance agreements that

:59:35. > :59:39.individual prisons have with me as Secretary of State. I will give way

:59:40. > :59:44.on one more occasion and then I will make progress. I'm grateful for

:59:45. > :59:49.giving way. Astin Grange prison in York has the lowest reoffending rate

:59:50. > :59:52.in the country. For two years, the Government has been saying it will

:59:53. > :59:58.close the women's prison. Will the Lord Chancellor look at that again

:59:59. > :00:02.confirmed she will not do that because it is such an excellent

:00:03. > :00:05.prison? I will be happy to that issue and will be launching a new

:00:06. > :00:13.strategy for women offenders about how we can better make sure that we

:00:14. > :00:18.deal with underlying issues, whether that is substance abuse, whether it

:00:19. > :00:23.is issues of abuse and domestic violence, so that we can get a

:00:24. > :00:29.better solution and prevent women from committing the crimes that lead

:00:30. > :00:37.them into custody. We will cover what the honourable lady has

:00:38. > :00:41.specifically mentioned. Also preparing prisoners for life outside

:00:42. > :00:46.prison. As has already been mentioned. Making sure there is

:00:47. > :00:52.sustainable employment, making sure there is a home for the offender to

:00:53. > :01:03.go to is vitally important in reducing reoffending. I will give

:01:04. > :01:06.way. There is a prison in my constituency. They have been

:01:07. > :01:10.pioneers in a programme called jobs, friends and families. Could I ask

:01:11. > :01:13.the minister to have a look at some of the programme is being run by

:01:14. > :01:15.this prison to see if we can incorporate that because it does

:01:16. > :01:21.make a difference to people's lives? I would be very happy to see the

:01:22. > :01:25.details of that scheme. What we are doing in our performance measures

:01:26. > :01:29.and the way we are looking at the governors being empowered is areas

:01:30. > :01:34.like family ties will be included. Governors will be given control of

:01:35. > :01:38.their budget for helping prisoners with their family ties. We have had

:01:39. > :01:44.a report from Lord Farmer, who I am meeting this week to discuss

:01:45. > :01:50.further. As well as having work, a home to go to, having a supportive

:01:51. > :01:54.family, it can be a very important part of rehabilitation. All of those

:01:55. > :02:00.things, the governor needs to look at. What I am setting out is very

:02:01. > :02:04.clear expectations of what prisons should be doing but not how they

:02:05. > :02:07.should do it. I believe it is up to the individual governor to look at

:02:08. > :02:11.what works in their area, what works for the people in that individual

:02:12. > :02:16.prisons, and to be given flexibility to be able to deliver things in an

:02:17. > :02:19.innovative way. That is very important as well. I'll be very

:02:20. > :02:23.clear about the standards we expect that how they do it will be much

:02:24. > :02:30.more down to governors and that is very important. Does the Lord

:02:31. > :02:36.Chancellor agreed that one of the key recommendations of Lord Farmer

:02:37. > :02:42.is going, in itself, if we are able to tackle the links with families,

:02:43. > :02:46.in itself reduce reoffending? He will show that 63% of the children

:02:47. > :02:51.of offenders themselves grow up to offend. Does she agree it is

:02:52. > :02:55.important that we intervene early to ensure that does not actually

:02:56. > :03:01.happen? My honourable friend is absolutely correct on that point. We

:03:02. > :03:05.do have an issue with those children often feeling that they have done

:03:06. > :03:10.something wrong. It is absolutely wrong they should be punished for a

:03:11. > :03:15.crime their parent has committed. I am determined to do what we can to

:03:16. > :03:20.make sure that innovative schemes like storybook dads, which helps to

:03:21. > :03:23.keep a link between father and also mothers and their children, are

:03:24. > :03:29.protected whilst those individuals are in prison. Finally, we also need

:03:30. > :03:34.to maintain a prison environment that is safe and secure. Britain's

:03:35. > :03:39.need to feel safe or staff in prisons. As well as tackling violent

:03:40. > :03:42.incidents and creating the right culture and atmosphere, we need to

:03:43. > :03:48.provide support to probable prisoners and make sure we have

:03:49. > :03:53.sufficient levels of staffing to provide that safety and security.

:03:54. > :03:57.The bill makes clear how I, as Secretary of State, will account to

:03:58. > :04:02.Parliament for progress in reforming offenders that this is the first

:04:03. > :04:07.time. This is the first time that in legislation it will be clear that

:04:08. > :04:11.the Secretary of State is responsible for reforming offenders

:04:12. > :04:14.and the Secretary of State me, will have to report to Parliament about

:04:15. > :04:18.what I do. That is a very important change we will see happening in the

:04:19. > :04:22.culture of our prisons. For the first time there will be

:04:23. > :04:26.accountability at Cabinet level for not just whether or not prisons will

:04:27. > :04:32.be safe, which is important, not just whether or not we are providing

:04:33. > :04:36.enough prison places but whether, whilst those individuals are under

:04:37. > :04:39.the care of the state, whether their lives are being turned around

:04:40. > :04:52.whether they are being reformed and whether they leave prison with

:04:53. > :04:53.better prospects are more likely to lead a

:04:54. > :04:56.law-abiding life? I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I have

:04:57. > :05:00.been listening very closely to this of the debate which has been

:05:01. > :05:07.extremely consensual. There is a great deal of common hope invested

:05:08. > :05:11.in the institution in Wrexham. We are hugely impressed with the staff

:05:12. > :05:16.are picking up on the point she is making, will she report back on a

:05:17. > :05:21.regular basis of the progress of that particular prison? Many of the

:05:22. > :05:26.aspects of the philosophy we are talking about, I think it has been

:05:27. > :05:33.carried forward in practical terms, and it would be extremely important

:05:34. > :05:42.to measure that as time passes. We are looking at the progress made and

:05:43. > :05:51.learning the lessons across our prison estate. The Lord Chancellor

:05:52. > :05:54.is very generous in giving way to me twice that she will be aware that

:05:55. > :06:02.people with autism are disproportionately represented in

:06:03. > :06:06.the criminal justice system. In Feltham, it was the first prison to

:06:07. > :06:11.have accreditation at being autism friendly for that they've found that

:06:12. > :06:14.reduced violence and help people with mental health problems. Many

:06:15. > :06:19.people are going through the accreditation process. Will she give

:06:20. > :06:21.consideration to make sure that all establishments go through this

:06:22. > :06:26.accreditation process because I believe it will deliver a safe

:06:27. > :06:29.environment in prisons for our officers and those that are

:06:30. > :06:33.incarcerated? I thank my honourable friend. I will look at that. I know

:06:34. > :06:40.she has a long accordance standing up for people with autism are making

:06:41. > :06:43.sure they have proper support. I just want to finish the point. We

:06:44. > :06:54.have to move on to the court section of the bill. She is very kind. In

:06:55. > :06:58.the Bill, it says the report has set out the extent to which prisoners

:06:59. > :07:04.are meeting the purpose mentioned in section a one. What happens if the

:07:05. > :07:10.prisons generally do not meet those purposes? What will the Secretary of

:07:11. > :07:16.State do about it? What can she do about it? What will happen if she

:07:17. > :07:22.does nothing about it? My honourable friend, who served as shadow prisons

:07:23. > :07:28.minister, has a very important point to make here. What the bill does, as

:07:29. > :07:33.well as creating a framework for the minister, we are also setting up the

:07:34. > :07:38.new Executive agency, Her Majesty 's prison and probation service from

:07:39. > :07:42.the 1st of April which will focus on the operational management of

:07:43. > :07:46.prisons and probation. We will have new standards so performance

:07:47. > :07:50.measures will appear in performance tables, so the public will feature

:07:51. > :07:55.chance apparently and accountability what is going on in prisons. At the

:07:56. > :07:59.moment we do not know what the employment rate out of a particular

:08:00. > :08:08.prisoners, or how good a prison is at improving English and maths for

:08:09. > :08:10.people the prison or how effective they are at getting people off

:08:11. > :08:12.drugs. Those measures will be published. That will bring much

:08:13. > :08:18.greater scrutiny and accountability for the public. In addition to that,

:08:19. > :08:22.what I'm doing a the powers of the prison inspectorate. But the

:08:23. > :08:29.inspectorate will be able to do, and the Chief inspector in particular it

:08:30. > :08:34.will trigger an urgent response from the Secretary of State in the most

:08:35. > :08:38.serious of cases. If a prisoner is failing to meet those standards, it

:08:39. > :08:41.will mean the Secretary of State must respond within a specific

:08:42. > :08:47.timetable and will have to take action in terms of an action plan to

:08:48. > :08:54.improve that specific prison. At the moment that is not in place. I will

:08:55. > :09:01.give way. I assume this is intended to be visible. If the Secretary of

:09:02. > :09:07.State did not respond within the times suggested, the Government

:09:08. > :09:10.would be appearing in court. They will be given specific powers to

:09:11. > :09:14.make sure it happens will do what the bill also do as it will place

:09:15. > :09:18.the prisons and probation ombudsman on a statutory footing the giving

:09:19. > :09:23.him greater authority and statutory powers in investigating deaths in

:09:24. > :09:28.custody. The bill also supports our efforts to stop drug use and crime

:09:29. > :09:31.enabled by a legal mobile phones. It enables phone network operators to

:09:32. > :09:33.disrupt unlawful use of mobile phones in custody. I will give way

:09:34. > :09:43.to the honourable lady. I just wanted to ask if she could

:09:44. > :09:47.answer very quickly in the case of the prison escape who is

:09:48. > :09:51.accountable? The Governor is accountable for what happens in

:09:52. > :09:56.their prison but ultimately there is a line management structure, through

:09:57. > :09:59.to the head of the prison service and ultimately to the Secretary of

:10:00. > :10:05.State. I'm moving on to the other measures

:10:06. > :10:12.in the Bill. The Bill also supports swifter responses to the effects of

:10:13. > :10:16.psycho reactive substances. What they do with fuel debt and violence

:10:17. > :10:21.and they can have a very severe impact on prisoners help. We rolled

:10:22. > :10:25.out new tests for psychoactive substances last year and we were the

:10:26. > :10:29.first jurisdiction in the world to do that. The Bill also strengthens

:10:30. > :10:35.our ability to keep up with the speed at which the substances

:10:36. > :10:44.evolve. It allows for quick testing for newly identified psychoactive

:10:45. > :10:48.substances based on guidelines in the guidelines. Madam Deputy

:10:49. > :10:53.Speaker, we face challenges in our prisons that will not be solved in

:10:54. > :10:56.weeks or months, but am absolutely determined to turn the situation

:10:57. > :11:00.around. We now have the resources to do that, we are investing an

:11:01. > :11:05.additional ?100 million a year and we have a clear plan to do that.

:11:06. > :11:11.What the measures in this Bill do is provide a structure under which that

:11:12. > :11:18.accountability and scrutiny can take place, so that we can see how our

:11:19. > :11:22.prisons are improving over time. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Bill

:11:23. > :11:26.introduces major reforms to the courts and justice system, which I

:11:27. > :11:29.announced in my joint memorandum with the Lord Chief Justice and

:11:30. > :11:34.senior President of the tribunal 's in September. It will introduce more

:11:35. > :11:39.virtual and online hearings, put in place greater protection for

:11:40. > :11:42.witnesses and victims and provide greater support for excellent judges

:11:43. > :11:47.and magistrates. I want to take a moment to page tribute to the Lord

:11:48. > :11:51.Chief Justice, a great reformer who has spearheaded these reforms and

:11:52. > :11:56.who will retire later this year. I also want to thank the senior

:11:57. > :12:00.President of tribunal rules. Their vision for a caught and tribunal

:12:01. > :12:04.system that is just, proportionate and accessible lies at the very

:12:05. > :12:08.heart of the reforms set out in this Bill. These reforms are a tribute to

:12:09. > :12:12.their tireless work alongside other senior members of the judiciary. I

:12:13. > :12:22.will give way. I'll be half of the Justice select

:12:23. > :12:24.committee associate ourselves with her comments about the Lord Chief

:12:25. > :12:28.Justice. Would she reflect as to whether or not it is passing through

:12:29. > :12:34.the House, this Bill may not give an opportunity to revisit the retiring

:12:35. > :12:38.age of the senior judiciary at 70, which runs against the behaviour of

:12:39. > :12:43.much of the rest of society and our economy. It might be an opportunity

:12:44. > :12:47.to consider. I thank the chairman of the select

:12:48. > :12:54.committee for introducing this hotly debated issue into this discussion

:12:55. > :12:59.about the Bill, which is not, this measure is not part of the Bill. I

:13:00. > :13:03.have had discussions on this issue with the senior judiciary. I don't

:13:04. > :13:07.think there is currently a consensus on that issue, but it's certainly

:13:08. > :13:12.something that I think we should consider in due course, but as I

:13:13. > :13:18.said, at the moment, there is not a consensus on that issue.

:13:19. > :13:24.Yesterday we announced we are bringing forward the roll-out of

:13:25. > :13:26.reforms, allowing rape victims to prerecord their cross-examination,

:13:27. > :13:31.sparing them from the trauma of giving evidence during the trial.

:13:32. > :13:34.This follows successful pilots of these measures for child victims of

:13:35. > :13:40.all crimes. This will not produce the right to a fair trial. During

:13:41. > :13:43.the pilots for vulnerable victims there was no significant change in

:13:44. > :13:47.the conviction rate but what we did see was more early guilty pleas and

:13:48. > :13:55.fewer cracked trials, which means less stress and trauma for all of

:13:56. > :13:57.those participating in the case. I want to praise the determined

:13:58. > :14:04.leadership of the president of the Queen 's bench division and the

:14:05. > :14:08.senior presiding judge. They have been vital to developing the plans

:14:09. > :14:13.for rolling out these provisions for child victims and victims of sexual

:14:14. > :14:19.offences in all Crown Courts. Given in some of our crown courts we have

:14:20. > :14:25.almost 50% of cases are sexual cases, I think this is a very

:14:26. > :14:28.important reform that will help and support people who have to go

:14:29. > :14:31.through this terrible experience and really make improvements in this

:14:32. > :14:37.situation. I will give way. Thank you. This is a very welcome

:14:38. > :14:43.announcement but it will mean more cases will have to be included in

:14:44. > :14:50.the roll-out of section 28 due to be completed by December 20 17. The

:14:51. > :15:01.sexual assault referral centre in Manchester has video link to the

:15:02. > :15:10.court. With the Secretary of State considers the facilitation of this

:15:11. > :15:16.venue? I thank the honourable lady. I am in

:15:17. > :15:20.principle in favour of using alternative venues apart from

:15:21. > :15:25.courts, which can often be conducive to people giving their best possible

:15:26. > :15:27.evidence in a less intimidating environment. It's something I will

:15:28. > :15:31.have to discuss with the senior judiciary. We're working very

:15:32. > :15:35.closely with them on this issue. I am certainly in favour of using

:15:36. > :15:39.places like sexual assault referral centres to make sure we give the

:15:40. > :15:43.best possible support to victims and witnesses in a very difficult time

:15:44. > :15:47.they have to go through. The measures set out in this Bill

:15:48. > :15:50.will further enhance our ability to protect vulnerable witnesses and

:15:51. > :15:54.modernise the courts and tribunal system. Our changes to the system

:15:55. > :16:00.should reflect, should be reflected in better legal support that is

:16:01. > :16:04.focused on early help and representation. That is why we are

:16:05. > :16:08.bringing forward a legal support green paper in early 2018, setting

:16:09. > :16:16.up proposals to update the system of legal support in a modern court

:16:17. > :16:21.system. Less time navigating the system and more legal time spent on

:16:22. > :16:24.giving people legal advice and legal representation. Parts two and three

:16:25. > :16:29.of the Bill will take forward measures relating to procedures in

:16:30. > :16:33.civil, family and criminal matters and the organisation and functions

:16:34. > :16:38.of courts and tribunals. I will talk through each in turn. I will give

:16:39. > :16:42.way. I am most grateful to her for giving

:16:43. > :16:47.way. One of the areas that causes me concern, in terms of representation

:16:48. > :16:53.in court, is matrimonial proceedings, which I think are some

:16:54. > :16:58.of the most difficult, emotional and contentious areas in our courts and

:16:59. > :17:03.where there is very little legal representation that is publicly

:17:04. > :17:07.funded. Is the Lord Chancellor content with the current situation,

:17:08. > :17:14.and which areas to she think needs most attention?

:17:15. > :17:18.If the honourable gentleman is asking me am I content with the

:17:19. > :17:23.current situation, know I am not content. We do need to reform the

:17:24. > :17:30.family justice system. We need to help people get earlier resolution

:17:31. > :17:37.of their, the issues that they have. We need to get better, I think, at

:17:38. > :17:41.helping families, and I'm a big fan of the family Court and the work

:17:42. > :17:47.they do in supporting families. That's why my honourable friend and

:17:48. > :17:51.I will be bringing forward a green paper on family justice, which looks

:17:52. > :17:56.at the system in a holistic way and looks at how we can do things

:17:57. > :18:00.better. Within the family justice system. But I think there are

:18:01. > :18:06.certainly areas of improvement. I do think it's an important step that we

:18:07. > :18:10.are banning the ability of alleged abusers to be able to cross examine

:18:11. > :18:14.their victims in court. This was done in the crown courts in the

:18:15. > :18:19.1990s and we are only now catching up with that in the family courts. I

:18:20. > :18:22.think it is very important that we give family courts the priority in

:18:23. > :18:27.the system that they deserve, because it's very important that we

:18:28. > :18:30.deal with these difficult issues in peoples lives in a sensitive way as

:18:31. > :18:34.possible. This Bill will also make sure that

:18:35. > :18:38.victims and witnesses in the criminal courts receive the support

:18:39. > :18:42.they deserve. It will extend the use of video links and virtual hearings,

:18:43. > :18:46.which have multiple benefits. First of all it will allow victims to be

:18:47. > :18:50.eligible to be taking part in cases without having to meet their

:18:51. > :18:56.religion attacker face-to-face. In future, around 180,000 victims and

:18:57. > :18:59.witnesses a year will have the opportunity to give evidence remote

:19:00. > :19:05.suites, from a convenient location or in advance of the hearing. It

:19:06. > :19:07.will enable more bail hearings to take place through video link and

:19:08. > :19:10.away from the court room, saving time and money. It will increase the

:19:11. > :19:14.efficiency and effectiveness of the overall process, by allowing a

:19:15. > :19:17.number of decisions to be made outside the traditional court room

:19:18. > :19:22.and will save people time in travelling to court, saving around

:19:23. > :19:26.112,000 journeys from prisons to court each year.

:19:27. > :19:32.I will give way. I am most grateful. Again, I support the thrust and

:19:33. > :19:36.intention behind this. In the case of victims, of course, normally

:19:37. > :19:41.victims are the first witness for the prosecution. But where you are

:19:42. > :19:46.dealing with witnesses, is there not a risk, and how are we going to

:19:47. > :19:49.factor in the possibility that the question you may wish to ask the

:19:50. > :19:53.witness is changed by the evidence that precedes the witness giving

:19:54. > :19:58.that evidence? And we're going to have to have a system in place to

:19:59. > :20:01.deal with that if a fair trial processes to be maintained.

:20:02. > :20:06.My honourable friend makes a very important point, that a fair trial

:20:07. > :20:11.is at the heart of our justice system. What we are establishing

:20:12. > :20:16.is... We've already got rules committees, we're establishing a new

:20:17. > :20:19.online rules committee as well, which will be managed by the

:20:20. > :20:24.judiciary. They will look at these issues in detail, to make sure that

:20:25. > :20:28.a fair trial is always paramount in these cases.

:20:29. > :20:33.The Bill will also enable screens to be installed in court and Wales to

:20:34. > :20:37.allow the public to observe virtual hearings from court buildings

:20:38. > :20:41.anywhere in the country. List of all open cases will be published online

:20:42. > :20:45.and results will be made available digitally. This will ensure that

:20:46. > :20:49.justice is done and also that it is seen to be done. The Bill will

:20:50. > :20:54.streamline the pre-trial process and make changes to the way cases are

:20:55. > :20:58.allocated in the crown and Magistrates' Court. Defendants will

:20:59. > :21:01.be able to indicate a plea online in all cases, allowing the courts to

:21:02. > :21:07.make administrative decisions without the need for a hearing. We

:21:08. > :21:11.are also stripping out almost 30,000 unnecessary first hearings for the

:21:12. > :21:17.most serious offences in the Magistrates' Court each year. The

:21:18. > :21:21.Bill will abolish local justice areas, simplifying the structure our

:21:22. > :21:23.Magistrates' Court and removing the bureaucracy and geographical

:21:24. > :21:29.constraints that cause inefficiencies and delays. It will

:21:30. > :21:33.allow those charged with some of the most straightforward

:21:34. > :21:36.non-imprisonable offences to resolve their cases entirely online. I could

:21:37. > :21:40.give the House is an example. A commuter charged with failure to

:21:41. > :21:43.produce a ticket can log onto a website, have all the options

:21:44. > :21:47.clearly explained to them and accept a conviction and pay a set penalty

:21:48. > :21:51.instantly online, without waiting for a magistrates to process their

:21:52. > :21:57.case. My honourable friend will be aware

:21:58. > :22:02.that a number of Magistrates' Courts were closed in preceding years,

:22:03. > :22:05.including the court in Bedford by the justices themselves, despite the

:22:06. > :22:12.best efforts of my honourable friend, the member for Cambridge in

:22:13. > :22:15.north-west. Will these measures help allay my constituents concerns about

:22:16. > :22:18.additional travel for some of those offences they have cause question

:22:19. > :22:26.what will this give them some comfort that their concerns will be

:22:27. > :22:29.allayed? I represent a rural constituency and

:22:30. > :22:34.understand people's concerns about having to travel far. What these

:22:35. > :22:38.hearings will enable people to do is to be able to do more online, so

:22:39. > :22:44.they don't need to travel to court. To be able to use virtual videos.

:22:45. > :22:48.What we've seen is that is reducing travel needs right across the

:22:49. > :22:52.country. Also, if they want to observe a case in another part of

:22:53. > :22:55.the country, they will be able to go into their court with special

:22:56. > :23:00.permission to be able to observe that case, so it should give more

:23:01. > :23:06.access for victims and witnesses to the justice process. I will give

:23:07. > :23:14.way. All these plans for online

:23:15. > :23:21.communication are wonderful. If only you have the ability to get quality

:23:22. > :23:28.broadband. So in parts of my constituency, broadband as low as

:23:29. > :23:32.25% of capability, how on earth are people going to be able to access

:23:33. > :23:35.justice when they cannot possibly do anything online because of appalling

:23:36. > :23:40.broadband? We are doing a lot to improve

:23:41. > :23:44.broadband across the country. The online system is not mandatory. The

:23:45. > :23:48.paper process will be available. But I've been looking recently at

:23:49. > :23:52.virtual hearings taking place across the country and in some areas of the

:23:53. > :23:56.country, like the south-west of England, there is very high take-up

:23:57. > :24:01.of these hearings, because it does help people in rural areas who do

:24:02. > :24:05.have long distances to travel to get caught, to be able to use

:24:06. > :24:11.broadband... The West Country is leading the way at the moment. What

:24:12. > :24:14.we're looking at is how we can encourage courts across the country

:24:15. > :24:18.to do the same thing. I'm very pleased to say that civil justice is

:24:19. > :24:22.at the forefront of our reforms. I was proud to announce a new business

:24:23. > :24:25.and property court last week, with the Lord Chief Justice and the

:24:26. > :24:29.chance of the High Court. These courts are the vanguard of our

:24:30. > :24:34.world-class justice system and making sure that global Britain

:24:35. > :24:38.leads the world in law. They were based in London, Leeds, Bristol,

:24:39. > :24:44.Manchester and Cardiff. And I think they represent the fact that our

:24:45. > :24:48.courts and our commercial courts don't just serve the City of London,

:24:49. > :24:52.which is of course important, but significant regional centres across

:24:53. > :24:54.the country. This Bill introduces a new online court which will enable

:24:55. > :25:07.more people... I promise this is an uncontroversial

:25:08. > :25:12.intervention this time. Does she agree one of the strengths of our

:25:13. > :25:16.commercial courts, as well as the integrity of the Judiciary Committee

:25:17. > :25:19.as the Blatty to enforce judgments worldwide, and that includes within

:25:20. > :25:23.the European Union? Does she accepted his most important in the

:25:24. > :25:32.Brexit negotiations that the ability to force judgments remains a top

:25:33. > :25:37.priority? My honourable friend is correct about that point. As well as

:25:38. > :25:42.making sure that these commercial courts are right across regions of

:25:43. > :25:46.our country, we need to make sure we have mutual enforcement of

:25:47. > :25:51.judgments. We have a commitment to do that as the Government. It is

:25:52. > :25:55.something I have agreed with the Secretary of State for exiting the

:25:56. > :26:00.EU. That is a priority for this government's negotiations. The bill

:26:01. > :26:04.introduces a new online court to enable people to resolve civil

:26:05. > :26:09.claims of up to 25,000 simply and easily online. These online services

:26:10. > :26:17.will increase access to justice. The bill will reform procedures so

:26:18. > :26:19.people can make witness statements rather than statutory declarations

:26:20. > :26:22.in relation to certain traffic and air quality offences in the Crown

:26:23. > :26:27.Court. It means people will not have to go into court to go through the

:26:28. > :26:31.process. It will streamline the attachment of earnings orders,

:26:32. > :26:39.giving the council the same powers as the High Court. We also want our

:26:40. > :26:43.excellent judiciary and magistrates to be better supported on a wet they

:26:44. > :26:48.do. This bill will allow judges and all of our courts in tribunal is to

:26:49. > :26:53.make greater and more effective use of authorised court staff, to assist

:26:54. > :26:57.them with tasks such as dealing with routine applications or ensuring

:26:58. > :26:59.compliance with court directions this will allow our judicially to

:27:00. > :27:05.prioritise their time and expertise on the matter is whether you need it

:27:06. > :27:07.most. The bill will bring the legislative framework for the

:27:08. > :27:11.compliment tribunal system in close alignment with that of the wider

:27:12. > :27:17.tribunal system. It will confirm responsibility for making this usual

:27:18. > :27:21.rules to the Tribunal procedure committee. Employment judges will be

:27:22. > :27:25.able to delegate routine tasks to approach the trade or qualified

:27:26. > :27:30.staff. Overall, these reforms will benefit tribunal users whose cases

:27:31. > :27:34.will be resolved more quickly and proportionately. Madam Deputy

:27:35. > :27:39.Speaker, we have the most highly regarded judiciary in the world.

:27:40. > :27:43.They are a beacon of independence, expertise, commitment to the rule of

:27:44. > :27:47.law. The Lord Chief Justice and I are working closely together to make

:27:48. > :27:52.role for judges and magistrates in a role for judges and magistrates in a

:27:53. > :27:56.transformed and modern justice system. We are putting into place

:27:57. > :28:01.reforms that recognise magistrates as an integral part of the judicial

:28:02. > :28:05.family. The judicial is an important part of our Constitution and its

:28:06. > :28:10.continued independence is vital for the rule of law. We must continue to

:28:11. > :28:16.uphold very high standards and to select its members purely on merit.

:28:17. > :28:21.That means ensuring that people want to apply, that they feel valued, and

:28:22. > :28:25.they have good working conditions. I value the work the judiciary does

:28:26. > :28:29.from the magistrates and tribunals to the High Court and Supreme Court.

:28:30. > :28:34.As Lord Chancellor I am determined to support them in all they do. Part

:28:35. > :28:38.four the bill takes forward measures to ensure our judiciary has the

:28:39. > :28:44.support and opportunities they need for a fulfilling and successful

:28:45. > :28:51.career. This bill will strengthen leadership structures in the

:28:52. > :28:58.judiciary, providing clear career progression for the judges and

:28:59. > :29:00.ensuring we have the widest possible range of talent coming into the

:29:01. > :29:02.judiciary will make it easier to be more flexible, allowing judges to

:29:03. > :29:07.gain experience with different types of cases and helping with career

:29:08. > :29:10.progression. This bill will enable the judicial appointments commission

:29:11. > :29:15.to assist with this selection exercises in other parts of the

:29:16. > :29:20.world, sharing leading expertise within the commission. Part five of

:29:21. > :29:26.the bill tackles the rampant compensation culture that has

:29:27. > :29:30.developed around whiplash claims. Just before she moves on, she said

:29:31. > :29:34.quite rightly how much she values magistrates and the work they do.

:29:35. > :29:39.When can we expect the Government to allow magistrates to send people to

:29:40. > :29:42.prison for 12 months for an offence rather than six months? That is

:29:43. > :29:47.something this government has been promising to do for quite some time.

:29:48. > :29:50.I thank my honourable friend for his dog with support of magistrates will

:29:51. > :29:56.appears right about the fantastic work they do. -- his dog-eared

:29:57. > :30:01.support. I am happy to discuss this with him further. Part five of the

:30:02. > :30:08.bill tackles a rampant compensation culture that has developed around

:30:09. > :30:11.whiplash claims. The numbers of road traffic accident claims are 50%

:30:12. > :30:15.higher than they were ten years ago it was that despite the fact there

:30:16. > :30:21.are fewer accidents and safer cars on our roads. The bill will enable

:30:22. > :30:24.us to introduce a transparent tariff system of fixed proportionate

:30:25. > :30:29.compensation for whiplash claims with an injury duration of up to two

:30:30. > :30:33.years. It will make sure all claims will be supported by good quality,

:30:34. > :30:37.medical evidence, provided by accredited experts. I will give way

:30:38. > :30:45.to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor.

:30:46. > :30:47.Shouldn't she use this bill to put into place a fairer, more balanced

:30:48. > :30:51.framework, for calculating personal injury compensation lump sum

:30:52. > :30:55.insurance payments following the seismic decision she made on the

:30:56. > :31:01.discount rate a few weeks ago? It will not just potentially raise our

:31:02. > :31:05.constituents insurance premiums vary significantly but for the tax payer,

:31:06. > :31:09.NHS litigation, the Treasury are saying it could add 2 billion as

:31:10. > :31:14.next year and ?1 billion thereafter. Surely there is a better balance

:31:15. > :31:18.this bill could introduce? I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:31:19. > :31:24.point. I can assure him he will not have to wait long. I agree with him

:31:25. > :31:28.that the system needs reform. I'll be bringing forward a consultation

:31:29. > :31:35.before the Easter recess. I look forward to hearing from him in the

:31:36. > :31:40.consultation. I'm grateful for her generosity. Can she tell the Has

:31:41. > :31:45.whether compensation tariff figures for whiplash came from question up

:31:46. > :31:48.what evidence was there for the governor to put these figures in the

:31:49. > :31:52.consultation document? I think the honourable gentleman will have

:31:53. > :31:56.noticed we have changed the figures in response to the consultation

:31:57. > :31:59.document. They were adjudged to have been fair and reasonable for the

:32:00. > :32:12.level of injury we are talking about in this case. Will you give way? Can

:32:13. > :32:17.I ask the Lord Chancellor if she were considered just very slightly

:32:18. > :32:22.widening the definition of whiplash injuries in clause 61 to include

:32:23. > :32:27.injuries to the lower back, as well as the upper back? I thank my

:32:28. > :32:31.honourable friend for that point. That was an issue covered in the

:32:32. > :32:36.consultation. We have brought it back, listening to what people fed

:32:37. > :32:41.through in the consultation. This bill will enter the unfairness of

:32:42. > :32:44.higher premiums for motorists while ensuring fair compensation remains

:32:45. > :32:49.available for genuinely injured claimants. Madam Deputy Speaker...

:32:50. > :32:56.The prison and courts bill will usher in a new modern hero for our

:32:57. > :33:01.prisons, courts and justice system. -- modern era. It will make sure

:33:02. > :33:08.that our prisons are places of reform, so that offenders have the

:33:09. > :33:13.skills they need to return to society, secure employment and turn

:33:14. > :33:17.their back on crime. It will create a courts and tribunal system to

:33:18. > :33:21.protect the most vulnerable and is more straightforward and accessible

:33:22. > :33:25.for all. It will enable the Judiciary Committee the demands of

:33:26. > :33:27.the modern justice system and in harms our reputation for legal

:33:28. > :33:33.excellence around the world. I commend it to the house. The

:33:34. > :33:40.question is that the bill now be read a second time. Richard Bergen.

:33:41. > :33:45.Rank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to start off by echoing the

:33:46. > :33:51.Justice Secretary's and is about the young prison officer, who was

:33:52. > :33:55.attacked in Oak Hill last week. Want to take this opportunity to pay

:33:56. > :34:00.tribute to all our prison officers doing such a good job in such

:34:01. > :34:05.difficult circumstances. Madam Deputy Speaker, I also want to start

:34:06. > :34:09.my contribution by thanking the Secretary of State, who telephoned

:34:10. > :34:13.me the evening before the publication of the bill to discuss

:34:14. > :34:17.its contents with me, and I also want to thank the courts and

:34:18. > :34:23.tribunal 's minister in the same way for meeting with me last week to

:34:24. > :34:27.discuss the bill in further detail. I have only been in this place for a

:34:28. > :34:33.limited amount of time and it is a custom more often honoured in the

:34:34. > :34:37.breach and observance. I was pleased they contact me on this very

:34:38. > :34:40.courteous and informative way. I will also thank the House of Commons

:34:41. > :34:44.library for its borough and clear briefing, which has assisted myself

:34:45. > :34:49.and staff, and doubtless other members and their staff as well. On

:34:50. > :34:53.to the current landscape, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today we are

:34:54. > :35:00.discussing a bill to amend procedures in our prisons and in our

:35:01. > :35:05.courts. This bill was back in the days when the former member for

:35:06. > :35:09.Witney was Prime Minister. The right honourable member for Surrey Hughes

:35:10. > :35:14.was just a secretary and the right honourable member for Tatton could

:35:15. > :35:18.not find time to edit a daily newspaper. Much has changed since

:35:19. > :35:23.then we have waited a long time for this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:35:24. > :35:30.are not opposed to this bill. Indeed be welcome and support much of the

:35:31. > :35:34.contents of the bill. However, where we disagree, or believe the

:35:35. > :35:38.Government should go further, then we will pursue amendments in

:35:39. > :35:44.committee. This bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, comes at a time of jewel

:35:45. > :35:48.crises. A dangerous and declining prisoner state and thousands of

:35:49. > :35:52.people who have been priced out of access to justice. Let me set out

:35:53. > :35:58.the reasons for these crises and what the bill must offer to make a

:35:59. > :36:02.real difference. In relation to prisons, it has been the Secretary

:36:03. > :36:09.of State's 's fortune to inherit a brief, dominated from day one, by

:36:10. > :36:14.the crisis in our prisons. It is not a crisis of the current Secretary of

:36:15. > :36:19.State's making that is one created by the Conservative government cuts

:36:20. > :36:25.agenda. The statistics often cited in this place but they are worth

:36:26. > :36:30.repeating. Overcrowding in 68% of our prisons, approximately 77,000

:36:31. > :36:36.prison places, but more than 84,000 people in our prisons. In the 12

:36:37. > :36:42.months to September 2016, over 25,000 prisoner assault incidents

:36:43. > :36:49.within prisons. The 31% increase on the figure to September 2000 and 15.

:36:50. > :36:57.Madam Deputy Speaker, assaults on prison staff reached 6430. An

:36:58. > :37:02.increase of 82% since 2006 and a 40% increase from the year before. There

:37:03. > :37:11.were more than 37,750 incidents of self harm. This was an increase of

:37:12. > :37:17.61% can compare to September 2006, and a national increase of 23% on

:37:18. > :37:24.the previous year. And, in the 12 months to December 2016, there were

:37:25. > :37:31.354 deaths of prisoners in custody, that of which were self inflicted.

:37:32. > :37:36.It was that government decision to cut 7000 front-line prison officers,

:37:37. > :37:45.which has doubtlessly contributed in large part to the crisis. And that,

:37:46. > :37:50.allied to the disastrous decision to prioritise our probation service, so

:37:51. > :37:53.that effective rehabilitation of offenders has become all but extinct

:37:54. > :37:59.on successive Conservative governments. I am very grateful. I

:38:00. > :38:04.want to support our prison officers and help to protect them. One moment

:38:05. > :38:11.I intend to table later on, during the passage of the bill, is that

:38:12. > :38:15.anybody who is a prisoner, who assaults the prison officer, should

:38:16. > :38:19.no longer be automatically released halfway through their prison

:38:20. > :38:24.sentence. I think that would have a big impact on the prison officers

:38:25. > :38:28.Association. I'm sure they would welcome that may deter some violence

:38:29. > :38:33.we see in the prisons. If I were to table such an amendment but with the

:38:34. > :38:37.honourable member show his support? Thank you for the intervention. We

:38:38. > :38:47.will be in the bill committee looking at ways with my honourable

:38:48. > :38:51.friend, the member for Halifax, and others, and ensuring that we put the

:38:52. > :38:56.safety of our prison officers first and I would argue on par with that

:38:57. > :39:01.of police officers. So, these are all challengers. They are challenges

:39:02. > :39:05.of overcrowding, violence, and failing to reform. All challenges

:39:06. > :39:10.that this bill must confront and surmount. In relation to courts and

:39:11. > :39:14.tribunal is, the bill sets out proposals to modernise the way our

:39:15. > :39:22.courts operate. This, of course, is welcome. I can testify from my own

:39:23. > :39:25.decade as an employment tribunal lawyer, when in bleak house, Dickens

:39:26. > :39:30.complained about the turgid pays, with which courts dealt with cases,

:39:31. > :39:34.he could have been speaking for our age as well as his own. Technology

:39:35. > :39:40.has begun to appear in court rooms in which it was previously,

:39:41. > :39:43.glaringly absent. It is vital, Madam Deputy Speaker, that these

:39:44. > :39:48.innovations do not come at the expense of access to justice. In

:39:49. > :39:52.recent years, when the Conservatives have released documents with the

:39:53. > :39:57.word transforming in the title, it usually has meant shorthand for

:39:58. > :40:06.cutting, diminishing, and failing. Think about transforming legal aid.

:40:07. > :40:07.Think about transforming rehabilitation. Therefore,

:40:08. > :40:11.transforming our justice system, one of the papers which has so

:40:12. > :40:16.influenced this bill, must not result in the same. It was the Lord

:40:17. > :40:21.Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, who said last year, this was his words, our

:40:22. > :40:26.system of justice has become unaffordable to most. So, I am glad

:40:27. > :40:29.that the Secretary of State praised Lord Thomas in her speech full he

:40:30. > :40:33.was certainly correct when he said our system of justice has become

:40:34. > :40:37.unaffordable to most. I would welcome it if the Secretary of State

:40:38. > :40:43.with baby on praising Lord Thomas to agreeing with his analysis of his

:40:44. > :40:50.barriers to access the justice. Lord Thomas said what the honourable

:40:51. > :40:56.gentleman says he said but he will be aware that Lord Thomas is also

:40:57. > :41:00.supportive of all the measures that are proposed in the Bill, in terms

:41:01. > :41:04.of reforms of the courts, particularly in terms of the

:41:05. > :41:07.technology we use to allow access to courts which so many people are

:41:08. > :41:13.saying was going to be denied. He is supportive of all the measures.

:41:14. > :41:17.Thank you for that intervention. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I made

:41:18. > :41:20.clear at the outset of my speech, we are not opposing this Bill at second

:41:21. > :41:25.reading. We welcome a number of the measures in the but think the

:41:26. > :41:29.Government should go further. I hope that The right honourable member

:41:30. > :41:34.will agree with me that reform shouldn't come at the expense of

:41:35. > :41:37.access to justice and if Lord Thomas, we all hold in high esteem,

:41:38. > :41:42.is saying our system of justice has become unaffordable to most, that is

:41:43. > :41:46.something we must in this house on both sides take very seriously.

:41:47. > :41:52.Nothing more poignantly demonstrates what Lord Thomas said about the

:41:53. > :41:57.access to justice than the 70% in reduction of employment tribunal

:41:58. > :42:06.cases following the coalition's introduction of tribunal fees. This

:42:07. > :42:10.committee must provide answers to these problems. Technology alone is

:42:11. > :42:16.not a panacea nor must it be utilised to mask further cuts to

:42:17. > :42:21.public funding. On the subject of whiplash, Madam Deputy Speaker, a

:42:22. > :42:25.key feature of this Bill and which has seen much coverage in recent

:42:26. > :42:30.weeks, is the proposed reform to whiplash claims. Many were pleased

:42:31. > :42:35.that when the Bill appeared it did not include raising the small claims

:42:36. > :42:40.limit for all personal injuries. So the Government can be congratulated

:42:41. > :42:44.for listening on listening a little, but we should be clear that these

:42:45. > :42:50.reforms to whiplash are based on the false premise. We've heard the

:42:51. > :42:56.Secretary of State say today there is a rampant culture, a rampant

:42:57. > :43:00.compensation culture. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no epidemic of

:43:01. > :43:04.fraudulent claims. The British people are not on the fiddle or on

:43:05. > :43:09.the make in a way that the Government so disparagingly

:43:10. > :43:16.suggests. In relation to prisons, Madam Deputy Speaker... I will do.

:43:17. > :43:19.I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way and the

:43:20. > :43:23.tone of what he is saying is in agreement with much of what's being

:43:24. > :43:26.said and that is welcome. I will say when it comes to whiplash claims,

:43:27. > :43:31.how does he explain the fact that the number of accidents is going

:43:32. > :43:37.down enormously, yet the number of whiplash claims is going up

:43:38. > :43:43.nevertheless, by 50%? Could it have something to do with fraud?

:43:44. > :43:46.Thank you for the intervention. The number of whiplash claims in recent

:43:47. > :43:52.years has reduced. What I would also say this is in recent years and has

:43:53. > :43:59.stud. There is also a duty, a duty upon insurers to defend claims are

:44:00. > :44:03.not pay out if claims are fraudulent. Part one of this Bill...

:44:04. > :44:07.I will do. I'm grateful to my honourable friend

:44:08. > :44:12.for giving way. Could he help me... The Government have made a claim to

:44:13. > :44:17.whiplash proposals will reduce insurance premiums for drivers by

:44:18. > :44:20.around ?40. Has he become aware of any evidence to back up this claim,

:44:21. > :44:24.and if so could he help share it with the committee on the House

:44:25. > :44:29.because we'd be very interested in examining it?

:44:30. > :44:32.Thank you for that intervention. Unfortunately the Government has

:44:33. > :44:42.provided no cast-iron assurances that this saving will be passed on

:44:43. > :44:47.to drivers if it exists at all. I am grateful with my honourable friend.

:44:48. > :44:51.Would he agree it's wrong to penalised people with valid personal

:44:52. > :44:55.injury claims because of possible rises being driven by cowboy claims

:44:56. > :44:59.companies that are cold calling people with suggestions they should

:45:00. > :45:02.make claims no basis in basis in reality in this Bill does nothing to

:45:03. > :45:07.address? I agree with the point my honourable

:45:08. > :45:15.friend makes. They can't be injured people who should be made to pay the

:45:16. > :45:17.price for the behaviour, the minority of unscrupulous companies

:45:18. > :45:22.engaging in the practices she describes. On the subject of

:45:23. > :45:29.prisons, the Secretary of State started her contribution today by

:45:30. > :45:34.explaining how the Bill introduces a statutory purpose to prisons,

:45:35. > :45:38.protecting the public, reforming and rehabilitating offenders, preparing

:45:39. > :45:42.prisoners for life outside prison and maintaining an environment that

:45:43. > :45:47.is safe and secure. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course we agree with

:45:48. > :45:52.those aims. Most people believe that's what prisons are meant to be

:45:53. > :45:57.doing already anyway. But what is also crystal clear is that those

:45:58. > :46:04.things are not happening today. The main problems in prisons cannot be

:46:05. > :46:06.disputed. Violence, drugs, overcrowding and understaffing. To

:46:07. > :46:11.combat those threats effectively we need a plan for order, a plan to

:46:12. > :46:15.reduce the demand and supply of drugs, a plan to manage the prison

:46:16. > :46:21.population and recruit and retain prison officers. So where is any of

:46:22. > :46:28.that in this Bill itself? Where are the practical measures in this Bill

:46:29. > :46:33.to realise those goals? Madam Deputy Speaker, will be returning to this

:46:34. > :46:38.the -- these issues that the committee stage. Can I try to help

:46:39. > :46:40.my honourable friend? There is a theme running through the

:46:41. > :46:44.Government's approach to this. In the prisons in court Bill, the

:46:45. > :46:50.Government's approach to evidence is somewhat cavalier. Most of us would

:46:51. > :46:52.accept there is likely to be a cause-and-effect in cutting 6500

:46:53. > :46:59.prison officers and only replacing them with 2500 with the introduction

:47:00. > :47:03.of massive employment tribunal claims figures and a lack of access

:47:04. > :47:07.to justice and the Bazaar compensation tariff proposals for

:47:08. > :47:11.whiplash, with no evidence as to where the Government got their

:47:12. > :47:14.figures from just an assertion from the Secretary of State they believe

:47:15. > :47:18.in fair compensation. I believe in Santa Claus as well!

:47:19. > :47:22.Thank you for that intervention. My honourable friend puts it very well

:47:23. > :47:27.indeed. Evidence is required in court and evidence is required in

:47:28. > :47:30.this place. I would submit that there is evidence lacking to back up

:47:31. > :47:36.some of the Government's proposals. I will finish my point and then I

:47:37. > :47:40.will give way. It's simply the case with the Government's review into

:47:41. > :47:43.employment tribunal fees which basically says there was nothing to

:47:44. > :47:48.see here, despite the evidence showing there has been a 70%

:47:49. > :47:51.reduction in cases being brought to employment tribunal. I will give

:47:52. > :47:54.way. I am glad the honourable gentleman

:47:55. > :47:58.is in agreement with so much of what is in this Bill but would he also

:47:59. > :48:01.agree there is a white paper alongside this Bill that does

:48:02. > :48:06.contain a lot of the evidence that he is searching for?

:48:07. > :48:11.Of course we have considered the white paper but the point I made

:48:12. > :48:15.earlier if we will be returning to these practical proposals at the

:48:16. > :48:19.committee stage in attempting to approve the Government's Bill. I

:48:20. > :48:23.would also ask, Madam Deputy Speaker, do the ministers consider

:48:24. > :48:29.the resettlement of prisoners might also be a worthy aim in the Bill?

:48:30. > :48:35.Too many prisoners leave prison without a home to go to. That is a

:48:36. > :48:39.barrier to so many things, including to getting a job. This hampers

:48:40. > :48:46.rehabilitation... I will give way. Is my honourable friend aware of the

:48:47. > :48:51.project which offers a prisoner who is ready to take the step of moving

:48:52. > :48:58.out of drugs, out of the sending, into work, claiming no other

:48:59. > :49:04.benefits and housing benefits. They become a companion, preparing good

:49:05. > :49:08.stew selling a shop, restoring and repairing goods... No real cost

:49:09. > :49:12.other than housing benefit to the state and support for people to

:49:13. > :49:18.absolutely change their lives and it into work. Is that not something you

:49:19. > :49:23.should be following? The project as fantastic work and is the kind of

:49:24. > :49:27.that not only helps turn round the lives of inmates but also helps to

:49:28. > :49:31.protect society. The majority of people who go into prisons come out

:49:32. > :49:36.of our prisons and live next door to all of us. The project helps to give

:49:37. > :49:40.people a stake in society and reduce reoffending. I believe the

:49:41. > :49:45.Government can learn much from such projects. As I was saying, leaving

:49:46. > :49:50.prison without a home to go to is a barrier to so many things, including

:49:51. > :49:53.to getting a job and this hampers peoples and reintegration into

:49:54. > :50:00.society in the way that I mentioned and my honourable friend explained.

:50:01. > :50:03.So the Secretary of State will have overall responsibility for the

:50:04. > :50:07.statutory aims... I will give way. I am so grateful to the honourable

:50:08. > :50:10.gentleman for giving way and welcome his support for many of the

:50:11. > :50:14.provisions of this Bill. Will he also agree with me that the National

:50:15. > :50:19.Grid scheme that was started all those years ago by Doctor Mary

:50:20. > :50:21.Harris is really valuable in finding homes for prisoners? They take

:50:22. > :50:26.prisoners out on temporary licence, they pay them, they find them a job,

:50:27. > :50:32.they have money on the bank and they often find them a home. That is why

:50:33. > :50:36.this programme is so successful. Would he agree with me that really

:50:37. > :50:39.they should be rolled out right across the prison system,

:50:40. > :50:45.particularly as we need about 1.8 million engineers by the year 2020

:50:46. > :50:48.across the whole of the UK? It is certainly a very worthwhile

:50:49. > :50:54.and welcome programme, which is why I've been arguing that the Bill

:50:55. > :50:57.should specifically referred to this kind of practice.

:50:58. > :50:59.In relation to the Secretary of State having overall responsibility

:51:00. > :51:04.for the statutory aims, I think we do need to know more what this would

:51:05. > :51:10.mean in practice and will the Secretary of State tell us who will

:51:11. > :51:14.decide if the Secretary of State is for filling her response abilities?

:51:15. > :51:20.We welcome the additional powers given to the Inspector of prisons.

:51:21. > :51:24.The inspector's report means little, if not nothing, if their

:51:25. > :51:29.recommendations are simply ignored. The Bill, as we've heard earlier,

:51:30. > :51:33.says the Secretary of State must respond within 90 days. Firstly, it

:51:34. > :51:37.would be interesting to know how that period of time has arrived at,

:51:38. > :51:41.but beyond responding to the report, what else will the Secretary of

:51:42. > :51:47.State be required to do? Because many stakeholders tell me that

:51:48. > :51:53.failure to take any action in response to the report of the

:51:54. > :51:58.independent monitoring board contribute to the prisons crisis.

:51:59. > :52:05.The recent tragic death of Dean Saunders is a sad case of what can

:52:06. > :52:10.go wrong when mental health issues and our prison system collide. So

:52:11. > :52:13.has the Secretary of State considered whether she or prison

:52:14. > :52:19.governors should also be required to respond to those findings? And could

:52:20. > :52:22.the role of the governor be more effectively scrutinised through a

:52:23. > :52:28.system of peer to peer review right across the prison estate, whether

:52:29. > :52:33.public or private? The urgent notification system is welcomed but

:52:34. > :52:36.again, how is the 28 day time limit in which to respond arrived at? And

:52:37. > :52:43.does the concept of urgency not demand a shorter period than that?

:52:44. > :52:49.There have been attempts in the past to put prisons and probation

:52:50. > :52:55.ombudsman on a statutory footing and perhaps that is within reach, but

:52:56. > :53:00.that is all the Bill dials in that regard. So what thought did the

:53:01. > :53:03.Justice Secretary give to expanding, or augmenting its powers? There is

:53:04. > :53:08.nothing in this Bill which addresses the need to improve the experience

:53:09. > :53:14.and care of those who come to prison with mental health problems, or even

:53:15. > :53:21.weather prison is the right place for many of them in the first place.

:53:22. > :53:25.On the subject of communications in prisons and mobile phones, blocking

:53:26. > :53:30.the use of unauthorised mobile phones in our prisons is clearly an

:53:31. > :53:34.urgent task and of course, we fully support it.

:53:35. > :53:38.But other measures would complement this innovation and reduce the trade

:53:39. > :53:42.in mobile phones. Committed and hardened criminals will seek out

:53:43. > :53:46.mobile phones to try to continue their criminal enterprises and

:53:47. > :53:51.activities from inside our prisons. But for those prisoners who just

:53:52. > :53:54.want to phone home or phone a friend, greater access to affordable

:53:55. > :54:00.payphones for monitored calls will help to reduce the demand for

:54:01. > :54:08.mobiles. Currently some prisons have payphones in cells, however most

:54:09. > :54:11.prisons have just payphones on the prison wing and at association time

:54:12. > :54:18.the prisoners end up queueing and may not get to use that phone before

:54:19. > :54:23.their association time is up. I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, better

:54:24. > :54:26.access to affordable payphones, with privacy from other inmates, would

:54:27. > :54:32.reduce the demand for mobile phones. But of course we welcome the

:54:33. > :54:38.Government's measures to block the unauthorised use of mobile phones.

:54:39. > :54:42.Developing and using an effective way of testing for psychoactive

:54:43. > :54:47.substances is also vital. However, that alone won't deal with the

:54:48. > :54:51.demand and supply of those substances. Recent reports from

:54:52. > :54:55.inspectorates have found that overcrowding and a shortage of

:54:56. > :55:00.prison officers means intelligence led drug tests are sadly a rarity.

:55:01. > :55:05.But the best and most effective way of reducing the demand for drugs is

:55:06. > :55:07.to ensure a full and purposeful programme for all prisoners, so that

:55:08. > :55:17.their time in prison is occupied. Many of these problems with which we

:55:18. > :55:24.are now grappling can be linked to the disastrous decision to cut

:55:25. > :55:28.prison officer numbers by 7000, or 30%, since 2010. The public sector

:55:29. > :55:32.pay freeze has made recruitment more difficult and without sufficient

:55:33. > :55:36.numbers of officers in prisons they cannot maintain order, they don't

:55:37. > :55:41.have time to mix with prisoners and gather intelligence. Nor do they

:55:42. > :55:48.have the time to conduct searches, fabric checks of cells or drugs

:55:49. > :55:53.testing. I will give way. In the context of insufficient staff, does

:55:54. > :55:57.he welcomed the establishment of prisons ombudsman with considerable

:55:58. > :56:01.powers, including the power to direct the form of the response to

:56:02. > :56:06.be made by the secretary of state to a report from the ombudsman? It is a

:56:07. > :56:09.considerable power and if we have a strong ombudsman who would be

:56:10. > :56:13.prepared in certain circumstances became necessary to face up to the

:56:14. > :56:16.Secretary of State that is a powerful protection when the

:56:17. > :56:18.ombudsman investigates deaths as deaths as well as other complaints.

:56:19. > :56:32.That is a very important point, of course we

:56:33. > :56:34.support a strong ombudsman we want reassurances that the Secretary of

:56:35. > :56:37.State will not just have to respond to the ombudsman but had to take

:56:38. > :56:39.action on the basis of the findings of the ombudsman. Prison officers

:56:40. > :56:42.that I speak to wants to help offenders turn the lights around,

:56:43. > :56:48.they want more responsibility and to be part of a value profession. They

:56:49. > :56:50.don't want to be viewed as just turn keys but successive Conservative

:56:51. > :56:57.justice secretaries have diminished their role. Away from the Bill, the

:56:58. > :57:02.government has, as mentioned earlier, set out plans for league

:57:03. > :57:05.tables and greater autonomy for prison governors. One wonders why

:57:06. > :57:09.the government are persisting with the league tables idea when it was

:57:10. > :57:15.first dismissed by the Chief Inspector of prisons, Peter Clarke,

:57:16. > :57:18.at the Justice committee in January. The Prison Governors Association

:57:19. > :57:22.have said that league tables will not achieve anything other than to

:57:23. > :57:27.risk demoralising staff and unfairly judging the senior management team.

:57:28. > :57:32.Perhaps that is what prompted the prisons minister to tell the Justice

:57:33. > :57:36.committee it would be performance data. The Prison Governors

:57:37. > :57:39.Association also fears increased governor autonomy coinciding with

:57:40. > :57:46.increased responsibility for the Justice Secretary may result in,

:57:47. > :57:51.heaven forbid, in blame being pushed their way, saying governors are

:57:52. > :57:53.being asked, this is what the Prison Governors Association have said,

:57:54. > :57:56.governors are being asked to sign up to agreements that will become

:57:57. > :57:59.effective in five weeks with insufficient detail on what they

:58:00. > :58:04.will be held account for. The risk is the prison reform Bill will

:58:05. > :58:10.become the prison blame Bill. Further inroads into overcrowding

:58:11. > :58:14.and the chaos could be made by considering who is being remanded

:58:15. > :58:17.and why. Whether some offenders with mental health problems need a

:58:18. > :58:22.different approach and in dealing with a backlog of IPP prisoners. We

:58:23. > :58:27.see insufficient action to address any of these things. We were told,

:58:28. > :58:31.Madam Deputy Speaker, that this bill will transform the lives of the

:58:32. > :58:36.offenders, but just saying that is the case won't make it so because

:58:37. > :58:43.transforming lives means first transforming their system. I want to

:58:44. > :58:50.turn now to the subject of quartz and tribunal 's, which I touched

:58:51. > :58:55.upon earlier. Since 2010 government legal aid cuts have robbed thousands

:58:56. > :59:00.of the legal representation which should be there right. Many of them

:59:01. > :59:05.are those who are most in need of legal representation, people in

:59:06. > :59:08.debt, people claiming welfare benefits, people facing marital

:59:09. > :59:17.breakdown and people facing housing problems, those are just some of the

:59:18. > :59:24.examples. In 2012/13 724,243 civil law cases were funded by legal aid.

:59:25. > :59:30.After the legal aid sentencing and punishment of offenders act that

:59:31. > :59:35.figure plummeted. It plummeted to 258,460, now, I do recognise that

:59:36. > :59:41.some on the benches opposite will toast these figures, as evidence of

:59:42. > :59:48.a job well done, but in reality what else is this bug proof of access to

:59:49. > :59:51.justice denied? The Coalition Government introduced employment

:59:52. > :59:57.tribunal fees and that measure resulted in a 70% reduction in the

:59:58. > :00:00.number of cases brought. The long delayed review that I mentioned

:00:01. > :00:07.earlier essentially concluded that there is nothing to see here, and it

:00:08. > :00:11.said that while there is clear evidence that the fees have

:00:12. > :00:14.discouraged people from bringing claims, there is no conclusive

:00:15. > :00:19.evidence they had been presented -- prevented from doing so. And only

:00:20. > :00:25.illegal treatment by employers flouting the law of the land had

:00:26. > :00:29.reduced by 70%. It is the number of cases that have reduced by 70%, not

:00:30. > :00:34.the number of incidences of illegal treatment. I will give way. Isn't it

:00:35. > :00:38.the case that if someone get something for nothing it is likely

:00:39. > :00:41.they will take it up, and that was the core problem with employment

:00:42. > :00:45.tribunal is, when people had to pay absolutely nothing to get access. It

:00:46. > :00:52.is right if one goes to court that one pays some kind of fee. That is a

:00:53. > :00:57.very useful intervention because it lays clear what the conservative

:00:58. > :01:03.view on access to justice is. The idea of something for nothing. If

:01:04. > :01:06.somebody has not been paid them a national minimum wage, why should

:01:07. > :01:10.they be charged to ensure they get that money back Barack Obama if

:01:11. > :01:14.someone has not been paid their proper wage, if somebody has been

:01:15. > :01:20.discriminated against on grounds of modernity, disability, or pregnancy

:01:21. > :01:23.related discrimination, to say that these are people looking for

:01:24. > :01:30.something for nothing is outrageous and it takes me back to the time

:01:31. > :01:35.when I was an employment lawyer acting for these people that the

:01:36. > :01:40.honourable member dismisses in such a cavalier fashion. I remember the

:01:41. > :01:44.first time I lodged a case after the fees were introduced, I lodged a

:01:45. > :01:48.case and it said on the employment tribunal service website, customer,

:01:49. > :01:54.please enter your cos -- credit card details. Isn't that shameful once we

:01:55. > :01:57.start looking at our citizens attempting to assert their statutory

:01:58. > :02:01.rights, whether it is the right for the minimum wage or not be

:02:02. > :02:04.discriminated against, when we primarily see them as consumers and

:02:05. > :02:08.not citizens attempting to assert rights made in this place and it

:02:09. > :02:13.shows the priorities of our society and our justice system have been

:02:14. > :02:18.warped by this government. I will give way. I am grateful to him,

:02:19. > :02:22.would he agree with me that part of the difference of opinion here, of

:02:23. > :02:24.course, is that some on the opposition benches apparently have

:02:25. > :02:29.overlooked the fact that employment tribunal is a very often brought by

:02:30. > :02:33.people who have no job, they have no income, that is why they are

:02:34. > :02:37.bringing a tribunal case. It is very different from a big commercial

:02:38. > :02:47.dispute where one pays court fees for access to justice. Tribunal fees

:02:48. > :02:52.to people with no job is the substance of the reason they have a

:02:53. > :02:56.tribunal. This is a very important point indeed. People are being

:02:57. > :03:01.charged employment tribunal fees that exceed the underpayment of the

:03:02. > :03:07.wage about which they are complaining, so that really

:03:08. > :03:14.discourages claims. He is failing to mention that this was a policy which

:03:15. > :03:19.was designed, in part, to have more cases conciliators, and now instead

:03:20. > :03:23.of 23,000 cases a year going to a case, 92000 and half of them are

:03:24. > :03:33.resolved, and of course that is free. The objective of the Coalition

:03:34. > :03:38.Government in introducing employment Tribunal fees was to strengthen the

:03:39. > :03:41.hand of employers, including unscrupulous employers, and weaken

:03:42. > :03:45.the hand of the individual employees and that is why it is a policy that

:03:46. > :03:52.from the perspective of the government has worked. That is what

:03:53. > :03:55.it was about, and as for ACAS conciliation, the ACAS conciliation

:03:56. > :03:59.offered now is compulsory conciliation and it isn't the same

:04:00. > :04:03.as the role of ACAS in the past when people have issued an employment

:04:04. > :04:07.tribunal case. There is no professional advice given on the

:04:08. > :04:12.value of the case and just because a claim has been not issued or a match

:04:13. > :04:15.has been discontinued, doesn't mean there has been resolved

:04:16. > :04:20.satisfactorily and both parties on an equal footing. To make it clear,

:04:21. > :04:28.Labour would abolish employment Tribunal fees because Labour

:04:29. > :04:35.believes in access to justice. The honourable member shakes his head.

:04:36. > :04:37.He shakes his head, but the honourable members comments earlier

:04:38. > :04:45.about people looking for something for nothing shows how out of touch

:04:46. > :04:48.here's so I will give way. I am suggesting that the honourable

:04:49. > :04:56.gentleman 's policies giving something for nothing. Morvan

:04:57. > :05:05.implicit in the honourable gentleman 's ill considered comments are the

:05:06. > :05:09.fact that to allow people to seek justice in the employment courts

:05:10. > :05:16.without paying money is something for nothing. That is a disgraceful

:05:17. > :05:21.comment and I look forward to publicising it as widely as we can.

:05:22. > :05:27.The government needs to think again when it comes to employment tribunal

:05:28. > :05:33.fees. If we move from a system where very many cases go to the industrial

:05:34. > :05:36.tribunal, the employment tribunal, to one where most cases are

:05:37. > :05:42.conciliators, what is wrong with that? It is a much easier way for

:05:43. > :05:48.people to get justice? The problem is that the prize that is being paid

:05:49. > :05:56.is the price of access to justice and to ask at least on this side of

:05:57. > :06:01.the house that is unacceptable. Is the government seriously contending

:06:02. > :06:10.that 70% of claims brought before 2013 were somehow fraudulent? If so,

:06:11. > :06:14.that is absolutely outrageous. Can my friend repeat the figures because

:06:15. > :06:19.I thought you said round terms that after these changes there were

:06:20. > :06:23.500,000 fewer cases and the Minister has indicated that 70,000 more cases

:06:24. > :06:27.go to arbitration, that is a big gas and still over 400,000 people who

:06:28. > :06:33.aren't getting access to justice. That is right. That is completely

:06:34. > :06:37.right, and the final point I will make on this subject before I move

:06:38. > :06:41.on to courts and tribunal closures is that employment tribunal fees,

:06:42. > :06:45.the introduction of them, have harmed not only those who would

:06:46. > :06:49.bring a case but it has harmed those who would never dream of bringing a

:06:50. > :06:53.case, the reason being that if their employer knows there is virtue no

:06:54. > :06:57.chance if they break the law of an employee bringing a case against it

:06:58. > :06:59.actually gives a green light to one scrupulous employers because they

:07:00. > :07:02.know that the risk is so much diminished of them being held to

:07:03. > :07:07.account and this goes to the root of what access to Justices. Legal

:07:08. > :07:12.rights are basically worthless if you can't enforce them, if you can't

:07:13. > :07:19.rely on them for reason of lack of resource or any other on the subject

:07:20. > :07:25.of courts and tribunal closures, to government programmes in marked a

:07:26. > :07:29.total of 243 courts and tribunal 's foreclosure and this has obvious and

:07:30. > :07:36.long-lasting effects on the principle of local justice. The cuts

:07:37. > :07:39.have led to an increased number of people forced to represent

:07:40. > :07:45.themselves and as far back as 2014 figures such as the Lord Chief

:07:46. > :07:49.Justice Lord Chief Thomas were warning of the rise of unrepresented

:07:50. > :07:56.litigants, of litigants in person. The Justice committee in 2015 in its

:07:57. > :08:01.report into the impact of this said that the result is that the courts

:08:02. > :08:05.are having to expend more resources to assist litigants in person and

:08:06. > :08:12.require more funding to cope. We know that and we know that litigants

:08:13. > :08:17.in person clog up the system and actually make the court system less

:08:18. > :08:21.efficient. We, members of parliament, know as well that from

:08:22. > :08:28.our advice Sissons at the weekend is that they are full of people who

:08:29. > :08:31.need a lawyer but cannot get one. Ministers seem to treat the

:08:32. > :08:36.involvement of lawyers and potential litigation is fundamentally a bad

:08:37. > :08:41.thing. This misses much of the point. Those honourable members who

:08:42. > :08:45.ever needed to use a lawyer, those who have ever been lawyers

:08:46. > :08:50.themselves, will know the valuable role lawyers play in dissuading

:08:51. > :08:54.clients from ill-advised litigation, from encouraging fair settlement

:08:55. > :08:57.where possible, and settlement that is fair and beneficial to the client

:08:58. > :09:06.and in shortening the length of proceedings in court. To that end,

:09:07. > :09:10.the probation contained in part two of cross-examination of the abuse by

:09:11. > :09:14.the abuse is of course very, very welcome. The stark evidence from

:09:15. > :09:19.groups such as a women's aid is that this gap in the law was being used

:09:20. > :09:25.as a further means of control and a further means of abuse. Yet, despite

:09:26. > :09:31.the fact that we very much welcome this measure, it cannot be left

:09:32. > :09:34.unsaid that the reason that this problem became so pronounced it was

:09:35. > :09:40.because of the government 's legal aid cuts. It is very damaging and

:09:41. > :09:49.profound way that exacerbated a very serious problem. The body of family

:09:50. > :09:52.solicitors make it clear that the impact of this has led to an

:09:53. > :09:58.increase in litigants in person, meaning we have seen a rise in the

:09:59. > :10:02.number of defendants cross-examining those that they have abused.

:10:03. > :10:11.To turn to the subject of modernisation. Few would disagree

:10:12. > :10:15.the court system needs modernising and digitising. Some would say it is

:10:16. > :10:19.in more need of modernisation than this place. But there remains too

:10:20. > :10:25.much paper involvement when technology has made it possible for

:10:26. > :10:30.much documentation to be stored and amended using tablets and the like.

:10:31. > :10:34.Technology alone doesn't demolish barriers to access to justice, it

:10:35. > :10:37.can exacerbate the risks. Madam Deputy Speaker, we favour

:10:38. > :10:43.streamlining justice and reducing unnecessary court hearings and

:10:44. > :10:48.recognise that part two of this Bill seeks to achieve that. But as the

:10:49. > :10:53.chair of the bar Council has warned, the fact that online courts, in his

:10:54. > :10:57.words, might encourage defendants to plead guilty out of convenience when

:10:58. > :11:01.in fact they may not be guilty of an offence in a matter how small, risks

:11:02. > :11:05.injustice. We have to be mindful of that. The Law Society also issued a

:11:06. > :11:11.caution in its briefing on this Bill, saying although we welcome the

:11:12. > :11:14.introduction of these measures as a way to improve efficiency, there are

:11:15. > :11:19.serious risks associated with them in the absence of adequate access to

:11:20. > :11:23.legal advice. Safeguards must be in place to ensure that the defendant

:11:24. > :11:29.is aware of the consequences of indicating that plea in writing and

:11:30. > :11:33.other measures highlighted above. Madam Deputy Speaker, online courts

:11:34. > :11:37.again present the opportunity for a modern and desirable way of using

:11:38. > :11:42.technology to reduce court hearings and deal with preliminary matters

:11:43. > :11:46.and hopefully an efficient way. The Law Society again in its briefing

:11:47. > :11:50.cautions that online convictions should be thoroughly tested and

:11:51. > :11:57.reviewed before being expanded. We therefore hope the Government will

:11:58. > :12:01.be open to amendments which allow for reviews to take place after a

:12:02. > :12:06.specified time, which would seem sensible to do so. Virtual hearings,

:12:07. > :12:11.procedures on papers only and written plea and mode of trial

:12:12. > :12:14.procedures will all need to be reviewed in time. The Government

:12:15. > :12:18.needs to give closer consideration to safeguards and we will seek to

:12:19. > :12:26.achieve those safeguards. In relation to whiplash... The

:12:27. > :12:30.clauses contained in part five of this Bill will have come as a relief

:12:31. > :12:34.to many. The Government has backed away from increasing the small

:12:35. > :12:39.claims limit across personal injury, and that is indeed welcome. But the

:12:40. > :12:45.Government, as we know, sees the personal injury lawyer lurking

:12:46. > :12:49.around every corner. The Minister for courts and tribunals even

:12:50. > :12:54.mistook me for a personal injury lawyer! There is a former personal

:12:55. > :13:00.injury lawyer behind me, although he only has one job now... But the

:13:01. > :13:03.Association of Personal Injury Lawyers made clear in written

:13:04. > :13:09.evidence to the justice committee that even when whiplash statistics

:13:10. > :13:14.are combined with the number of injuries registered by insurers as

:13:15. > :13:19.neck and back injuries there has been, as I said earlier, a

:13:20. > :13:23.significant fall of 11% since 2011-12. There are profound problems

:13:24. > :13:28.which exist with the tariff system proposed. As the Government has

:13:29. > :13:33.accepted, the amount it set out elsewhere are low but too low.

:13:34. > :13:37.Companies -- compensation must be in line with the extent of the injury.

:13:38. > :13:42.When taken together in the increase of the small claims to ?5,000, all

:13:43. > :13:47.victims of road traffic accidents, not only victims of whiplash, would

:13:48. > :13:51.not be entitled to recover legal costs where the compensation does

:13:52. > :13:54.not exceed ?5,000. That will inevitably deter people from

:13:55. > :13:59.accessing legal representation and deter genuine claims. So the

:14:00. > :14:04.Government should consider, Madam Deputy Speaker, ensuring victims of

:14:05. > :14:08.road traffic accidents are able to recover their legal costs.

:14:09. > :14:13.We've heard repeatedly, and it's a subject we touched upon earlier,

:14:14. > :14:18.that the proposals in the Bill will lead to reduced premiums by as much

:14:19. > :14:22.as ?40 a year on average. The Law Society has questioned the accuracy

:14:23. > :14:25.of these figures. It says that the pass rates on which they are

:14:26. > :14:30.predicated are difficult to predict and it is unclear how the 85%

:14:31. > :14:35.savings rate has been calculated. As my honourable friend made the point

:14:36. > :14:39.in his intervention earlier, it's a matter of evidence, or in this case

:14:40. > :14:44.lack of it. Most obviously there is no mechanism by which insurers can

:14:45. > :14:49.be made to pass on any savings to consumers. We hear a lot of insults

:14:50. > :14:52.thrown at the British people about a rampant claims culture, about people

:14:53. > :14:57.being on the make and on the fiddle. We here a lot less about the

:14:58. > :15:05.behaviour of some insurers when it comes to saving to defend weak

:15:06. > :15:09.claims and we hear a lot less about how much the insurance industry are

:15:10. > :15:13.making out of all of this. And only a tiny minority of companies, by the

:15:14. > :15:17.way, insurance companies, have said they will pass on any savings.

:15:18. > :15:22.So, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Government needs to take action to

:15:23. > :15:29.win those guarantees. And to conclude, I will look forward to the

:15:30. > :15:33.remainder of the debate today. As I started by saying, Labour does not

:15:34. > :15:38.oppose the Bill at second reading but we do lament that it lacks so

:15:39. > :15:41.much. I'd suggest that the Bill itself must transform, if the Bill

:15:42. > :15:53.is to transform. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:15:54. > :16:00.start by thanking the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State

:16:01. > :16:02.for the courtesy she has shown to me as chair of the select committee, in

:16:03. > :16:07.keeping me appraised as to the progress of this Bill. It is very

:16:08. > :16:11.welcome. Although there have been occasions that when the select

:16:12. > :16:15.committee has come up with constructive criticism or

:16:16. > :16:18.counterintelligence to the Government throughout the

:16:19. > :16:22.ministerial team you engage with this positively. I welcome the deal

:16:23. > :16:26.and the tone of my right honourable friend's speech very much indeed.

:16:27. > :16:30.This is an important Bill and it's important for a number of reasons.

:16:31. > :16:34.Firstly because it deals with some very important topics. Secondly,

:16:35. > :16:40.because it is wide enough in scope to merit acting as a framework for

:16:41. > :16:45.further improvement as we go forward.

:16:46. > :16:49.I will start with prisons, with your permission, but I will confine

:16:50. > :16:53.myself to that. Prisons is obviously the most significant issue that sits

:16:54. > :16:58.upon the right honourable lady's agenda and it is the matter of

:16:59. > :17:01.greatest concern to the Justice select committee. We issued a number

:17:02. > :17:05.of reports in the course of this Parliament, as we did in the

:17:06. > :17:11.previous one, about the situation in our prisons. Let's be blunt, the

:17:12. > :17:14.situation is grim. That is not the doing of my right honourable friend

:17:15. > :17:17.but something that has grown over a number of years and under the watch

:17:18. > :17:21.of governments and different political complexion is as well. We

:17:22. > :17:26.do now need to tackle this as a matter of real urgency.

:17:27. > :17:30.There are a number of factors, no simple reason why we have got into

:17:31. > :17:33.the difficulty we have in our prisons and similarly there is no

:17:34. > :17:37.single silver bullet as to a solution either. One that is in the

:17:38. > :17:42.Bill is a very valuable and worthwhile framework on which to

:17:43. > :17:47.hang a wider suite of reforms. I hope very much that my right

:17:48. > :17:51.honourable friend will take courage to be bold and radical in those

:17:52. > :17:57.reforms. My side of the House should not be

:17:58. > :18:02.afraid of being advocates of prison reform. It is a fundamental and

:18:03. > :18:08.important social cause and I'm proud to be a member of a party that has a

:18:09. > :18:12.long tradition of advocating social reform running back through

:18:13. > :18:19.Wilberforce, through Shaftesbury, through the reforming work of

:18:20. > :18:23.Richard 's cross, his Home Secretary and of others. The right honourable

:18:24. > :18:28.lady takes on the proposals of my right honourable friend the member

:18:29. > :18:33.for Surrey Heath, follows in a radical Tory tradition and it's one

:18:34. > :18:37.I welcome and one we should not be afraid to make the case for. Of

:18:38. > :18:43.course I will give way. He's making available contribution

:18:44. > :18:47.and I agree about the many merits of this Bill. Does he not agree with me

:18:48. > :18:55.it is a missed opportunity, in terms of improving the opportunities for

:18:56. > :18:58.prisoners, improving the deadlock reducing the rates of reoffending by

:18:59. > :19:04.not having improving and protecting the rights, the mental health of

:19:05. > :19:09.prisoners on the front page of the Bill in clause one?

:19:10. > :19:13.It's a perfectly fair point my honourable friend makes. I imagine

:19:14. > :19:15.it's going to be almost impossible to put every single objective upon

:19:16. > :19:20.the face of the Bill and I suspect it will be set by ministers that

:19:21. > :19:24.these are intended to be the broad and overarching objectives. But the

:19:25. > :19:28.issue of mental health in prisons is a most profound and important one. I

:19:29. > :19:32.would have no objection were it to be on the face of the Bill, but

:19:33. > :19:36.equally I think the most important thing is the political goodwill of

:19:37. > :19:40.ministers to ensure that within the frame arc of the Bill, even as it

:19:41. > :19:45.currently stands, it remains a top priority. I hope he and I and others

:19:46. > :19:48.who share this concern across the House will be able to work hard to

:19:49. > :19:54.make sure that is delivered. That is part of the reason that we

:19:55. > :19:58.need to tackle prison reform. Part of what we seek to do is give a

:19:59. > :20:03.legal framework. Part of that itself is in the Bill. The rest of it, in

:20:04. > :20:07.important measures, is set out in the white paper, which was a very

:20:08. > :20:12.significant and progressive document in the right sense of the world. Let

:20:13. > :20:18.me make this point... -- right sense of the word. What we need across the

:20:19. > :20:22.House to recognise is that we must have political will to tackle

:20:23. > :20:27.reform, and that includes creating a climate of public opinion that

:20:28. > :20:33.accepts that political reform is not a soft option, it is not something

:20:34. > :20:40.that is done out of a kind of soft-headed liberalism on doing

:20:41. > :20:45.good... It is done first sound and profound social, moral and ethical

:20:46. > :20:49.reasons and also brings with it real societal and economical benefits. I

:20:50. > :20:53.will give way. Thank you for giving way. As he will

:20:54. > :20:57.be aware, the white paper set out a whole range of proposals to deal

:20:58. > :21:02.with increasing violence, increasing self harm and persistently high

:21:03. > :21:11.levels of reoffending. Given that we know, as he outlined in his remarks,

:21:12. > :21:15.the profound connection between poor mental health of prisoners on those

:21:16. > :21:18.issues, including substance misuse, which is often linked with poor

:21:19. > :21:22.mental health, it does seem very surprising to me that in clause one

:21:23. > :21:26.that is not on the face of this Bill a mention of improving the mental

:21:27. > :21:31.health of prisoners. I suspect my honourable friend will

:21:32. > :21:34.return to that topic as the Bill makes its progress and there may be

:21:35. > :21:39.other opportunities for others to do so as well. Certainly, in the course

:21:40. > :21:43.of our ongoing enquiries into prison reform, the select committee has

:21:44. > :21:48.already taken some evidence in relation to the difficulties of

:21:49. > :21:51.mental health provision. We had practitioners, and give evidence to

:21:52. > :21:56.us recently and that is certainly a topic we will want to return to and

:21:57. > :21:58.I know others may address in the course of this debate. I will give

:21:59. > :22:02.way to my honourable and landed friend.

:22:03. > :22:07.Thank you to my friend for giving way. He mentioned that the need for

:22:08. > :22:13.political will. He is correct in saying so, but if you ask members of

:22:14. > :22:18.the public, both on an individual basis but on a more organised basis,

:22:19. > :22:20.what they think about the current state of our prisons on what they

:22:21. > :22:26.think needs to be done in our justice system, they are much more

:22:27. > :22:30.liberal than politicians give them credit for. We need to be braver and

:22:31. > :22:37.get on with this, rather than allow ourselves to be pushed around by

:22:38. > :22:40.various, shall we say, disobliging organs to the media who want us to

:22:41. > :22:44.be more and more Draconian in the way we deal with prisons.

:22:45. > :22:50.My honourable friend is absolutely right. He moves me very neatly onto

:22:51. > :22:55.the next thing I was almost about to say, because that political will

:22:56. > :22:59.does require us, sometimes, to stand up against the writers of Bellerin

:23:00. > :23:06.headlines and those who actually pose as voices of public opinion but

:23:07. > :23:14.actually seek to be manipulators of it. I'd actually say the truth is in

:23:15. > :23:18.everybody's interest that we reduce reoffending because the more we do

:23:19. > :23:23.that, the fewer victims that are of crime. That is in everybody's case a

:23:24. > :23:26.good right of centre and left of centre case for reform and we shall

:23:27. > :23:29.make it across the House. I will give way to the honourable lady

:23:30. > :23:33.opposite first. Thank you. Would the honourable

:23:34. > :23:37.gentleman agree that one of the ways we could actually dramatically cut

:23:38. > :23:44.reoffending would be if we looked at how many people are revolving door

:23:45. > :23:47.entrance in and out of prison, not because of criminal intent but

:23:48. > :23:52.because of their mental health condition drives them to behave in a

:23:53. > :23:56.way that actually leads them inevitably into the arms of the

:23:57. > :24:00.police, because they are becoming the social workers for the mentally

:24:01. > :24:03.ill, and into the criminal justice system rather than to our

:24:04. > :24:08.psychiatric hospitals that are massively overcrowded and

:24:09. > :24:12.underfunded. The honourable for lady makes a very fair and reasonable

:24:13. > :24:20.point. That is a significant factor. I practised as a criminal lawyer for

:24:21. > :24:23.the better part of 30 years. I both prosecuted undefended, so I had no

:24:24. > :24:28.compunction about sending away people who have committed serious

:24:29. > :24:31.crimes, but equally when I defended people, and when I looked at some of

:24:32. > :24:37.those whom I prosecuted in the course of that career, there were

:24:38. > :24:41.some people who were dangerous, were unpleasant and in some cases

:24:42. > :24:45.downright evil and they deserved to go to prison and is deserved to go

:24:46. > :24:50.to prison for a very long time. There were others who were weak and

:24:51. > :24:56.who were stupid. Some who were greedy and sometimes, particular for

:24:57. > :24:59.those who were greedy, that to deserved punishment and prism is

:25:00. > :25:04.appropriate for that, but there were also those who were weak, who were

:25:05. > :25:09.vulnerable, who found themselves in a situation where they were easily

:25:10. > :25:14.coerced. People who have made a series of errors in the course of

:25:15. > :25:17.their lives. People who suffered either from mental, physical or

:25:18. > :25:22.other illness or real other social pressures around them, and we do

:25:23. > :25:26.have to be much more discriminating and sophisticated in the way in

:25:27. > :25:31.which we deal with defendants in our justice system.

:25:32. > :25:37.I will make this point first and then I will give way to our

:25:38. > :25:40.honourable friend. Present doesn't always work, it works for some

:25:41. > :25:45.people but not for everybody all of the time and we have to be a rave

:25:46. > :25:50.enough to have a political debate to say that and as my honourable

:25:51. > :25:54.learned friend the former Solicitor General rightly says, the public are

:25:55. > :25:57.much more alert and that and realistic about that and much more

:25:58. > :26:04.willing to buy that argument. We just simply need to have the courage

:26:05. > :26:07.to make it. I will give way. I am not entirely sure where my

:26:08. > :26:11.honourable friends go out in an evening during the day, I am not

:26:12. > :26:19.sure lawyers dinner parties reflect public opinion at large, but would

:26:20. > :26:22.my honourable friend accept that since Michael Howard started the

:26:23. > :26:27.trend of sending more people to prison the crime rate has fallen, so

:26:28. > :26:30.what would my honourable friend make about that direct correlation

:26:31. > :26:38.between the prison population going up in the crime rate going down? I

:26:39. > :26:46.rather suspect I have met a broader selection of society then you can

:26:47. > :26:51.meet in the average bookmakers! 's I think we can sometimes have to be

:26:52. > :26:55.prepared to stand up and challenge the stereotypes were ever in the

:26:56. > :27:00.political spectrum they come from. It diminishes the value of prison if

:27:01. > :27:06.we adopt a knee jerk approach to locking people up and throwing away

:27:07. > :27:10.the key is always the best solution in all circumstances. It is for the

:27:11. > :27:14.dangerous. I had no compunction as saying that those involved in the

:27:15. > :27:18.Brinks mat trial in which I was involved deserve to go away to

:27:19. > :27:23.prison for very long times. One was later convicted of murder and a very

:27:24. > :27:30.serious murder indeed and I hope they stay in prison for a very long

:27:31. > :27:34.indeed. Equally those who commit crimes to feed drugs habits aren't

:27:35. > :27:39.not served by lengthy prison sentences, nor to the point the

:27:40. > :27:44.public is not served in the long run because the real difficulty that we

:27:45. > :27:47.face is theirs. We incarcerate more people per hundred thousand of

:27:48. > :27:52.population than virtually any other of our western European comparators.

:27:53. > :27:57.It is more than Spain, more than France, which has a very similar

:27:58. > :28:01.demographic and social logical economic problems and indicators to

:28:02. > :28:07.ourselves. They are a good comparator in many respects. We have

:28:08. > :28:11.over 140 per 100,000 of population, France about 98 per hundred thousand

:28:12. > :28:18.population. I will make this the point before I give way to my

:28:19. > :28:23.honourable friend. We shall bear in mind that our rate of incarceration

:28:24. > :28:27.is practically double that of Germany, a country very similar to

:28:28. > :28:33.ourselves and many other respects. That cannot be because of some

:28:34. > :28:39.inherent greater criminality on the part of the British people, it is

:28:40. > :28:40.simply that we do not perhaps at the moment have a sufficiently

:28:41. > :28:49.sophisticated suite of alternatives to custody to give, if you like, a

:28:50. > :28:54.robust and publicly acceptable alternative so sentences often feel

:28:55. > :28:58.obliged to fall back on custody. Another point about reminded that

:28:59. > :29:03.when people are in custody generally Germany and the Netherlands in

:29:04. > :29:06.particular are able to do a better job of rehabilitation because their

:29:07. > :29:11.reoffending rates are much lower. That is why short sentences, I think

:29:12. > :29:14.the government recognises as much as other, -- commentators, very seldom

:29:15. > :29:18.have a positive effect on the government are right and to be

:29:19. > :29:21.commended in saying that we need to look at prison reform in terms of

:29:22. > :29:24.what happens imprisons and we also need to look at what happens when

:29:25. > :29:28.people come through the great -- Gate and the support they get in the

:29:29. > :29:33.community and also at what diversionary activities can be put

:29:34. > :29:35.in early on when people come into contact with the criminal justice

:29:36. > :29:39.system to make sure they proceed no further down that path. It is a

:29:40. > :29:46.holistic approach and the government is right in that regard. He has been

:29:47. > :29:50.typically gracious and kind, but notwithstanding the point he made,

:29:51. > :29:54.the fact that the matter is that for every 100 -- every 1000 crimes

:29:55. > :29:57.committed in this country only about 19 are sent to prison which is one

:29:58. > :30:01.of the lowest ratios of every single country in the world and perhaps you

:30:02. > :30:04.could tell us which countries have a lower ratio of people get sent to

:30:05. > :30:09.prison per 1000 crimes committed, because that is the best measure of

:30:10. > :30:16.how many criminals we sent to prison, rather than the population

:30:17. > :30:20.percentages. My honourable friend perhaps neglects to say that

:30:21. > :30:22.reporting arrangements are very different in other countries,

:30:23. > :30:26.particular when we deal with younger people in the criminal justice

:30:27. > :30:31.system so the diversion work that is often carried out in those countries

:30:32. > :30:35.in a different way does not give that kind of correlation. I would

:30:36. > :30:40.also point out it is not just in Europe. A number of the states in

:30:41. > :30:44.the United States, which we don't always think, particularly current

:30:45. > :30:49.circumstances, of being a beacon of social progressiveness, are actually

:30:50. > :30:54.more effective than we are in terms of rehabilitation, in terms of

:30:55. > :30:59.meaningful community penalties, and in terms of making sure the Siders

:31:00. > :31:02.is lower. Some of those, I might add, are carried out on the watch of

:31:03. > :31:07.republican governors. There was actually a cost for money base --

:31:08. > :31:11.case for imprisoning fewer people as well as a social outcomes case so we

:31:12. > :31:15.ought to be prepared to make the case for prison reform is being a

:31:16. > :31:21.very important objective of any government. That is why the bill, I

:31:22. > :31:24.think, is an important step in achieving that and of course there

:31:25. > :31:27.is a lot more that is not in the bill that we need to work on. In

:31:28. > :31:32.terms of the bill itself, the statutory purposes a good one. I

:31:33. > :31:38.honour -- I understand my honourable is friend 's friend point about what

:31:39. > :31:45.goes into it but the balance between safety of the public and the inmate

:31:46. > :31:47.with reform rehabilitation and improvement is I think the

:31:48. > :31:54.overarching set of principles to have. The new duties on the

:31:55. > :31:57.Secretary of State are important and I suspect they are justiciable but

:31:58. > :32:03.nonetheless it is important that we have proper accountability

:32:04. > :32:06.mechanisms. In particular the new power for the Chief Inspector of

:32:07. > :32:12.Prisons, to actually have the right to have a response to his report is

:32:13. > :32:16.especially important. The current Chief Inspector is an excellent

:32:17. > :32:21.appointment. I have had the privilege of shadowing his team when

:32:22. > :32:23.they carried out a prison inspection which happened to be my right

:32:24. > :32:27.honourable friend the Justice Secretary 's local prison at Norwich

:32:28. > :32:32.and I have seen a thorough and professional they are about it but

:32:33. > :32:35.as she will know and the prison principles will know and we know on

:32:36. > :32:39.the select committee, one of the great centres of frustration that he

:32:40. > :32:45.has is that repeatedly in some cases the bulk, not just a few, but the

:32:46. > :32:49.overwhelming majority of his recommendations are not taken on

:32:50. > :32:53.board so the ability to make sure that they are taken and a proper

:32:54. > :32:57.reason is given why not is very important because too many it is the

:32:58. > :33:01.same serial offenders at prisons that come around time and time again

:33:02. > :33:05.who reckon their recommendations are being ignored. This is an important

:33:06. > :33:08.legal step that underpins progress on the point has already been made

:33:09. > :33:13.about the prison probation 's ombudsman and I agree with that

:33:14. > :33:18.entirely. These are, I think, important and welcome measures as

:33:19. > :33:23.far as the prisons and dimension is concerned, as are the issues around

:33:24. > :33:25.new psychoactive substances and interference with mobile phones.

:33:26. > :33:30.These are all important steps forward. In terms of the rest of the

:33:31. > :33:34.bill, the modernisation of court proceedings is important and I think

:33:35. > :33:37.it is valuable. I think is the one thing that really to say is that I

:33:38. > :33:40.hope the government has the bill goes forward will bear in mind some

:33:41. > :33:45.of the caveats raised by practitioners, in particular the bar

:33:46. > :33:48.Council and the Law Society but also criminal bar Association and the

:33:49. > :33:51.criminal solicitors Association to make sure we do not have any

:33:52. > :33:54.unintended consequences. It is important when we are dealing with

:33:55. > :33:58.things that potentially give rise to a conviction online people do have

:33:59. > :34:03.the resource to make an informed decision both in relation to the

:34:04. > :34:08.play and that means of election and so forth. Having access to that is

:34:09. > :34:11.important. It can be very useful to all and I know the judiciary believe

:34:12. > :34:20.it could be a good tool but it is important that we have an informed

:34:21. > :34:24.decision on and the result of guilty pleas online is an obvious one in

:34:25. > :34:27.terms of that. Similarly we need to make sure that when there are

:34:28. > :34:33.virtual hearings taking place there is often a very good case of it but

:34:34. > :34:36.it shouldn't drift in it to being a default position. You do not have

:34:37. > :34:40.that for a trial but you can think of other forms of interlocutory

:34:41. > :34:45.proceedings as well aware that could be appropriate and we need to make

:34:46. > :34:48.sure we do not have too broad a brush approach to that but I think

:34:49. > :34:53.the principle is good and we do not have any problem with it. Looking

:34:54. > :34:57.again at some of the remaining matters, chapter eight, the whole

:34:58. > :35:01.question of dealing with the abuse of the situation with litigants in

:35:02. > :35:05.person and family cases and I think the cases accepted across the piece.

:35:06. > :35:09.It has worked well in the criminal jurisdiction for many years now and

:35:10. > :35:12.I hope when we set up the system in regulations as to how this works

:35:13. > :35:16.there won't be an attempt to overcomplicate or engineer it, if I

:35:17. > :35:20.would urge my right honourable friend to take as far as possible

:35:21. > :35:23.the criminal system to lifted across with adjustments that would seem to

:35:24. > :35:27.be a sensible weight and a point that has been made by practitioners

:35:28. > :35:30.is when advocates are asked to take this on under half of the court,

:35:31. > :35:34.into effect, they take on what is often a very heavy burden because

:35:35. > :35:37.the instructions can be detailed and complex and in my experience in

:35:38. > :35:48.these kind of cases they will frequently change as well by the

:35:49. > :35:51.nature of the person you are dealing with and so it is not an easy task.

:35:52. > :35:53.I hope therefore that the rates of remuneration will not be any worse

:35:54. > :35:55.than you get in the criminal jurisdiction. We want the people

:35:56. > :35:58.undertaking this work. Judicial appointments we have referred to and

:35:59. > :36:01.I think that is important. That it is also important that we bear in

:36:02. > :36:04.mind that leadership roles do need to be recognised, given the

:36:05. > :36:11.difficulty that we are having at the moment in recruiting proper High

:36:12. > :36:15.Court judges. Moving then onto the whole question of part five and

:36:16. > :36:19.whiplash, I don't think we can pretend that there is not an issue,

:36:20. > :36:22.and I will be finishing now, this is the fine a point upon which the

:36:23. > :36:27.select committee is already as evidence and we will want to take

:36:28. > :36:30.some more. They think no one can reasonably pretend there is not an

:36:31. > :36:35.issue around whiplash. There are disputes as to the strength of the

:36:36. > :36:39.evidence and that was the result of the heroes that we had. I'm glad the

:36:40. > :36:43.government has moved to a tariff system rather than an outright

:36:44. > :36:46.prohibition on general damages and I think there is some devil in the

:36:47. > :36:51.detail that we may need to consider as we go along. It is around the

:36:52. > :36:57.definition of what whiplash is, within clause 61 and the subclauses

:36:58. > :37:02.and also at the moment there is a tariff system for breach of

:37:03. > :37:05.statutory duty. One can, of course, and practitioners have raised this

:37:06. > :37:09.with me, envisage a number of circumstances in which it is

:37:10. > :37:12.possible to play both negligence and breach of statutory duty as

:37:13. > :37:16.alternatives, and it might be self-defeating if actually we get a

:37:17. > :37:20.sort of an industry in which people seek always to put in an alternative

:37:21. > :37:25.head of claim to take it immediately out of the pure negligence category.

:37:26. > :37:30.Some careful drafting many to be considered to look at the practical

:37:31. > :37:35.effects as far as that is concerned and above all we also need not to

:37:36. > :37:40.allow this to cause us to take our eye off the ball about the abuse of

:37:41. > :37:44.claims management companies. There is work already being done between

:37:45. > :37:49.the ministry and the Commissioner 's office but a lot of problems stems

:37:50. > :37:53.from the claims management companies so on that basis I wish the bill

:37:54. > :37:56.well and it is an important and valuable bill and I am sure there

:37:57. > :37:59.will be lively and constructive debate going forward and I think

:38:00. > :38:03.myself and other members of the select committee will as appropriate

:38:04. > :38:06.endeavour to assist the government in order to make a good bill better

:38:07. > :38:11.and I wish you well in its passage through the house. In order to be

:38:12. > :38:17.helpful to members we have 19 members wishing to speak, and when

:38:18. > :38:20.we worked that out just roughly, if people can respect themselves to

:38:21. > :38:27.about ten minutes it shouldn't be necessary to put any time limits on.

:38:28. > :38:31.Madam Deputy Speaker, I had assumed that I would be summing up for the

:38:32. > :38:36.SNP at the end of the debate. Would that be OK with the chair?

:38:37. > :38:54.Absolutely fine if he wants to resume his seat! Harriet Harman.

:38:55. > :38:58.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This bill gives the house, the

:38:59. > :39:01.Secretary of State, and her prisons minister, the chance to do something

:39:02. > :39:07.which should have been done a long time ago, but which is now urgent.

:39:08. > :39:11.That is to end the death toll of suicidal mentally ill people who

:39:12. > :39:15.take their own lives in our prisons. When the state takes someone into

:39:16. > :39:21.custody we have a duty to keep them safe. Their life becomes our

:39:22. > :39:25.responsibility, and yet prisons are not a place of safety. Last year 12

:39:26. > :39:32.women and 107 men took their own lives while in prison in the custody

:39:33. > :39:35.of the state. The build this government has brought forward

:39:36. > :39:40.affords us the important opportunity to change the law to prevent these

:39:41. > :39:46.tragic deaths and we must seize that opportunity because the problem is

:39:47. > :39:50.urgent and it is growing. We all know the issue of prison reform is

:39:51. > :39:54.not one which brings people out onto the streets or which tops the agenda

:39:55. > :39:58.at election time and unfortunately I wish I could agree with the

:39:59. > :40:04.honourable member who has just spoken, much of which I did agree

:40:05. > :40:08.with him, the chair of the Justice select committee, but when I think

:40:09. > :40:12.it rises up the agenda it is usually not in the cause of liberalising

:40:13. > :40:15.prison regimes but because of demands to make them more Draconian

:40:16. > :40:22.and that makes the job of the Secretary of State and her prisons

:40:23. > :40:25.Minister in any governor -- the government particularly challenging,

:40:26. > :40:28.which is why where it is possible cross-party approach to this is

:40:29. > :40:32.important and why the committee which I have the honour to chair,

:40:33. > :40:36.the joint committee on human rights, which is both cross-party and

:40:37. > :40:40.comprised of members from both this house the House of Lords is

:40:41. > :40:52.conducting an enquiry into suicides in prison.

:40:53. > :40:59.As Mark Saunders, the father of Dean, told committee earlier this

:41:00. > :41:04.month, we don't have capital punishment in this country, yet,

:41:05. > :41:09.when Dean was sent to Chelmsford prison, he was sentenced to death.

:41:10. > :41:15.So, too, it was to die Watlington, whose mother in arms came to

:41:16. > :41:28.Parliament to give evidence to our committee. -- Diane. She set fire to

:41:29. > :41:33.a mattress, was sent to Peterborough prison had to go live. The tragedy

:41:34. > :41:37.of suicide in prison is not new. As the Government acknowledges, it is

:41:38. > :41:44.worsening. Last year, the number of self inflicted death rose by 32%. It

:41:45. > :41:49.is not that this is a new problem, or even one where no one knows what

:41:50. > :41:54.to do. There have, over the years, been numerous weighty reports, which

:41:55. > :41:58.members of this house, members of the House of Lords, judges and many

:41:59. > :42:06.others have contributed to, which have analysed the problems and

:42:07. > :42:10.mapped out solutions. Successive governments have welcomed their

:42:11. > :42:17.proposals, changed policy, a huge new guidelines, but nothing changes

:42:18. > :42:26.except the death toll, which rises. In 1991, we had the wool trouble. In

:42:27. > :42:31.2007, the Corston report. -- Wolf Report. The Bradley report Adalat

:42:32. > :42:37.Andy Harris reports. It's just that we don't -- it is not what we don't

:42:38. > :42:42.know what to do, it's just that we haven't done it. There's no point in

:42:43. > :42:45.having more reviews on new policies or guidance. What is needed is to

:42:46. > :42:52.make sure the changes we all know are needed actually happen in

:42:53. > :42:58.practice. For that to happen, what is needed is a legal framework that

:42:59. > :43:05.will ensure the necessary changes take place because they are required

:43:06. > :43:13.by statute. Reports and guidance, and white papers are not

:43:14. > :43:19.enforceable. And are not... The war is. This is the opportunity to boot

:43:20. > :43:29.into law the changes required. -- law. -- put into law. Because this

:43:30. > :43:37.bill is before we have now, I ask you didn't consider a of new clauses

:43:38. > :43:41.in his in order to put into law the following. There should be a legal

:43:42. > :43:45.maximum of four the number of prisoners at prison officer. When

:43:46. > :43:49.there is not enough staff, sometimes not just two prison officers on a

:43:50. > :43:53.wing of 150 prisoners will stop prisoners remain locked in their

:43:54. > :43:57.cells, medical appointments and educational sessions are missed.

:43:58. > :44:03.They don't get to see the nurse for their medication. Call girl and

:44:04. > :44:06.answers, prison officers then have the time to unlock them for

:44:07. > :44:11.exercise, let alone sit down and get to know the prisoners and, in the

:44:12. > :44:21.vacuum, the worst of the prisoners take charge. Staff become the moral

:44:22. > :44:25.light and defensive, prisoners are at risk. The most vulnerable at

:44:26. > :44:29.risk. You can copy and other people going to prison or the increased the

:44:30. > :44:37.number of prison officers. What the Government has been doing is cutting

:44:38. > :44:42.the number of prison officers while prisoners increase. You can see a

:44:43. > :44:47.clear correlation and in the falling number of prison officers and the

:44:48. > :44:59.high number of prison suicides. I have put the graph 18 week just now,

:45:00. > :45:04.which shows it very clearly. -- graph on a tweet. Unless this

:45:05. > :45:09.changes, death will rise. We need to boot a maximum prison to prison

:45:10. > :45:13.officer ratio. Secondly, a legal maximum time a prisoner can be kept

:45:14. > :45:22.in SL. The governments agree that should be a maximum time prisoners

:45:23. > :45:26.should be locked in their cells. -- cell. It should happen but it

:45:27. > :45:29.doesn't. A legal obligation is required to make sure it does. A

:45:30. > :45:34.legal obligation for the prison service to make sure that each young

:45:35. > :45:38.person, prisoner or adult prisoner with mental health problems has a

:45:39. > :45:42.key worker, whether it's a prison officer or someone else. What

:45:43. > :45:45.matters is that there's an individual the cake was on the

:45:46. > :45:58.ability to bring together all the information from the dagger. -- an

:45:59. > :46:01.individual to bring the information together. Unless it's in the bill,

:46:02. > :46:06.it won't happen. It will remain nothing more than a good intention.

:46:07. > :46:14.Next, unless there's a specified reason that it should be the case,

:46:15. > :46:24.the relatives of a suicidal prisoner should be informed of and invited to

:46:25. > :46:31.take part in the safety reviews. ACCTs. The prisoner should be care

:46:32. > :46:34.about the nose. The family of Dean Saunders says, far from being given

:46:35. > :46:41.the jams to contribute to the measures to be enslaved, it wasn't

:46:42. > :46:48.until the inquest -- the chance to keep him safe. There had been a

:46:49. > :46:54.reviews conducted by Steph who didn't know Dean or anything about

:46:55. > :46:57.him. -- staff. Next, a legal obligation to ensure all young

:46:58. > :47:02.offenders and suicidal prisoners should be able to call a specified

:47:03. > :47:08.ad approved member of their family. One of the most frightening thing is

:47:09. > :47:12.for a prisoner who is suffering the misery and their mental illness is

:47:13. > :47:23.being out of pot with their family. A gas grid, confused, mentally ill

:47:24. > :47:28.prisoner. -- out of touch. Can stand, waiting for a phone call,

:47:29. > :47:31.find their way through numbers. Then technology is perfectly balanced

:47:32. > :47:38.enough now to have suicidal prisoners able to call home. Next,

:47:39. > :47:45.where a prison any to be transferred to a mental hospital, then she'd be

:47:46. > :47:49.a legal maximum time limit between the transfer. -- they are issued B.

:47:50. > :47:58.If they are so ill they can stay in prison, that must happen right away.

:47:59. > :48:02.-- they should be. Under the mental health guidance, that should be no

:48:03. > :48:09.more than 14 days, but it often takes many months. That maximum time

:48:10. > :48:14.limit should be laid down in all. -- law. If the minister said the six

:48:15. > :48:20.things are too detailed and specific for law, I would say, look at the

:48:21. > :48:29.law that apply to education, that apply to health. You will find their

:48:30. > :48:33.legal position for -- provision for ratios, time limits, health

:48:34. > :48:37.treatment. If it's good enough for education and the health service,

:48:38. > :48:43.why not for our prisoners? If the Minister said that these issues

:48:44. > :48:48.don't need to be in law all they can, or already in guidance, I

:48:49. > :48:52.say... They could be in guidance, I say we've done that over and over

:48:53. > :48:58.again and it hasn't worked. Now it's time it must be put into law. If the

:48:59. > :49:03.Minister said these issues are more suitable for regulations and being

:49:04. > :49:07.on the face of the bill, I'm sure I would have no objection to that.

:49:08. > :49:10.Whether they are in primary or secondary legislation is not what

:49:11. > :49:16.matters. What matters is that they should be grouped into law. I never

:49:17. > :49:22.exactly what his civil servants will say when he goes back to his

:49:23. > :49:31.apartment. Label saying it is unnecessary. All they will say it

:49:32. > :49:36.can't be done. I would argue -- may well say. -- all they will say.

:49:37. > :49:39.Being a minister is a great responsibility and relates. I know

:49:40. > :49:45.he's committed to his ministerial role, then I have key will resist

:49:46. > :49:52.the voices that will urge him to do no more than provide over this

:49:53. > :49:57.wretched status quo. I ask the house to help the Minister do what needs

:49:58. > :50:04.to be done by putting these proposed new clauses into the bill. Nothing

:50:05. > :50:07.will bring back Dean Saunders and Diane Watlington, whose heartbroken

:50:08. > :50:20.families gave evidence to Archimedes. Or any of the -- are

:50:21. > :50:25.committees. We, in this house, have the chance to make this Bill Lee

:50:26. > :50:35.Jenning point where we start costing lives. -- where are we stop costing

:50:36. > :50:40.lives. He has an opportunity to make a difference and save lives. I hope

:50:41. > :50:51.he will see that Chen 's and we must make sure he does. -- chance. I

:50:52. > :50:55.congratulate the ministers on putting forward this point and I

:50:56. > :50:58.very much appreciated the informative breathing and technology

:50:59. > :51:04.demonstrations organised by my honourable friend for North East

:51:05. > :51:12.Hertfordshire on the proposed re-forms. They were very helpful. On

:51:13. > :51:17.many points of litigation policy, it moves in a pragmatic way. If I have

:51:18. > :51:22.any overall concerns, they don't relate to general content, but we

:51:23. > :51:26.need to give fuller context to some of its clauses and this I intend to

:51:27. > :51:32.do with a view proposals. On whiplash, we need to keep in mind

:51:33. > :51:37.that the proposals in part five of a policy held in 2010 to reduce a

:51:38. > :51:46.compensation culture that has had a detrimental impact on our society.

:51:47. > :51:50.In MOJ questions in March and today, it seems to question the existence

:51:51. > :51:54.of compensation culture. Frankly, this was an issue which I thought we

:51:55. > :51:59.had positively proven by the time of the last act in 2012, but it seems

:52:00. > :52:05.the issue now is to be re-explained. To start, I would point out that you

:52:06. > :52:11.will notice my honourable friend for Cambridgeshire pointed out earlier

:52:12. > :52:16.that, hello accidents have fallen by 25 design, claims have increased by

:52:17. > :52:22.one third. -- 25%. Incremental measures aimed at reversing this

:52:23. > :52:26.trend. The key problem originated from the dynamic created by the

:52:27. > :52:33.no-win, no fee provisions of Labour's access to justice act 1989,

:52:34. > :52:38.which created an unreal marketplace. Cutting a long story short, by the

:52:39. > :52:42.workings of Labour's act, these have become detached. This is because the

:52:43. > :52:46.client would never directly had to pay any of the fees. So, it followed

:52:47. > :52:52.that they would not care what those these were. Stand-by claims farmers

:52:53. > :52:56.and aggressive gold collars. This was need a further example of Labour

:52:57. > :53:08.supporting a something for nothing system. -- cold callers. To counter

:53:09. > :53:12.this, we ended the accountability of success fees and prevented premiums

:53:13. > :53:18.from the defendant. We moved onto referral fees and addressing cold

:53:19. > :53:25.calling by Agence. We also toughened our care claims handlers. The

:53:26. > :53:30.changes were to reduce insurance premiums by 25%, however it is vital

:53:31. > :53:35.to keep an overall picture of what they congregated situation. For

:53:36. > :53:44.instant, it is considered by the ABI that a lot of whiplash claims are

:53:45. > :53:49.fraudulent. The fraud of figure used at the time was over 5%. I would be

:53:50. > :53:52.interested to hear from the Minister said he believes that insurers are

:53:53. > :53:57.prosecutors have now got the message on this and have opted their game on

:53:58. > :54:03.taking more fraudsters to court. -- upped. I don't think cold calling

:54:04. > :54:06.has been resolved and I want to hear from the Minister whether he has

:54:07. > :54:11.further bosom in this regard. Another important aspect is the

:54:12. > :54:15.small claims and personal injury cases, which is frankly well out of

:54:16. > :54:19.date. All those complaining at the proposals, I would say that this

:54:20. > :54:23.measure is being taken up now, rather than when it was first

:54:24. > :54:29.considered, around 2012, and that shows how God of the Government has

:54:30. > :54:34.been to take one step at a time. I fully support the governments's

:54:35. > :54:40.proposal to increase the RCA limit to ?5,000, including more thoughts

:54:41. > :54:43.before cases are taking. Could the Minister please say whether this

:54:44. > :54:46.would be a requirement for consideration as it is general Small

:54:47. > :54:55.Claims Court back with the use of the tariff not require this? The

:54:56. > :55:00.other injury claims are from ?1000 to only ?2000 rather than ?5,000. My

:55:01. > :55:04.understanding was that if only inflation were to be taken into

:55:05. > :55:09.account, the limit would increase to about ?3000. I appreciate that the

:55:10. > :55:13.change to the small claims limit is a matter for the very legislation

:55:14. > :55:17.rather than in this Bill, there I had the Government might reconsider

:55:18. > :55:25.this level. I recall putting up the general Small Claims Court from

:55:26. > :55:30.?5,000 to ?10,000 and what was said by businesses -- small claims limit.

:55:31. > :55:34.Has been good in practice. I would not attack it to seriously injured

:55:35. > :55:38.accident survivors who need public and legal help, but rather more to

:55:39. > :55:42.the matter of whiplash claims which are of an injuried oration of less

:55:43. > :55:46.than two years and arguably waved through to settlement by insurers

:55:47. > :55:52.who don't want because all other of dealing with each small claim.

:55:53. > :56:03.The average compensation for a six-month injury claim is just under

:56:04. > :56:06.?2000. I support the injury duration proposal but for it not to be taken

:56:07. > :56:10.advantage of their needs to be a better system for organising medical

:56:11. > :56:14.reports. At the moment offers to settle can be made without medical

:56:15. > :56:18.reports, even though in 2014 changes were made to discourage the

:56:19. > :56:23.practice. From now on there will be a ban on settling without medical

:56:24. > :56:27.evidence which I think is to be welcomed. Another related area

:56:28. > :56:36.contributing to the increase in insurance premiums relates to free

:56:37. > :56:41.hire cars loaned out to accident victims. If the government looking

:56:42. > :56:46.at this aspect? The overall saving for these proposals is ?40 per year

:56:47. > :56:52.but this message has been somewhat dilutive by insurers. They are

:56:53. > :56:57.saying that the proposed reduction to -0.75% of the discount rate is

:56:58. > :57:01.applicable to personal injury lump sum payments will result in a

:57:02. > :57:06.significant increase in premium amounts. Insurers are saying this

:57:07. > :57:10.could be up to ?75. I appreciate that the law, not the Lord

:57:11. > :57:13.Chancellor, sets the discount am pleased to see that the government

:57:14. > :57:16.will now consult on and in -- alternative framework but one

:57:17. > :57:19.wonders why the consultation could not have been handled together with

:57:20. > :57:23.the bill. Having said that it is certainly the case that with this

:57:24. > :57:26.bill the government is continuing the increment a bull fight back

:57:27. > :57:33.against compensation culture and I think that is a very good thing. I

:57:34. > :57:36.understand the point is the honourable member is making about

:57:37. > :57:41.the whiplash culture. Does he not appreciate there is an area that the

:57:42. > :57:46.bill does not cover, which is those rogue solicitors who pursue false

:57:47. > :57:50.claims against individuals who have not been involved in car accidents,

:57:51. > :57:56.claiming that they have, and that they had injured individuals, and

:57:57. > :58:00.that it is virtually impossible, like an elderly couple in my

:58:01. > :58:03.constituency, who were harassed therapy, and although there was no

:58:04. > :58:07.evidence of injury the solicitor pursued became and the court threw

:58:08. > :58:13.it out and the solicitors regulatory authority would look at death toll.

:58:14. > :58:16.-- pursue the claim. I agree that Ford is an important part of the

:58:17. > :58:20.overall aspect and the criminal site is not within the bill. I asked the

:58:21. > :58:28.minister earlier if he could address that issue. At the time that was

:58:29. > :58:31.considered that up to 7% of claims are fraudulent and I have now seen

:58:32. > :58:35.that may be less than 1%. That would actually show that has been a

:58:36. > :58:37.dramatic improvement but I would be interested to hear the government

:58:38. > :58:42.view as to whether they accent that and whether they -- what they will

:58:43. > :58:46.do about the 1% if it is that figure. The bill also has a wide

:58:47. > :58:49.variety of proposals in terms of case management and the operation of

:58:50. > :58:53.the courts, all of which taken together well, I believe, make for a

:58:54. > :58:56.much more effective and modern and technology friendly system. Of

:58:57. > :59:01.course the fact that the government is proposing to invest ?1 billion in

:59:02. > :59:05.the courts will do much to assure they remain world-class. There will

:59:06. > :59:09.be less courts but a much better service, I understand by 2022. I

:59:10. > :59:13.hope that some of this money will be used to simplify processes and

:59:14. > :59:16.facilitate nonlawyers ability to navigate the system. Could the

:59:17. > :59:20.minister please give an indication of where the department has got to

:59:21. > :59:24.in terms of using technology to assist litigants in person. In the

:59:25. > :59:29.past technology was often disregarded because it was felt that

:59:30. > :59:33.people did not see its use as delivering good justice as turning

:59:34. > :59:37.up in person. I suggest that this view, particularly with young

:59:38. > :59:38.people, is very out of date. We are moving to a situation where most

:59:39. > :59:43.crime is likely carried out online crime is likely carried out online

:59:44. > :59:47.so I welcome proposals such as to have automatic online convictions

:59:48. > :59:51.with statutory standard penalties for a few criminal offences. I hope

:59:52. > :59:54.this will be shortly reviewed, with the aim of extending the range of

:59:55. > :00:01.offences, likewise enabling claimants to recover money owed

:00:02. > :00:04.entirely online up to ?25,000 will save time and certainly help small

:00:05. > :00:09.businesses. The extension of the use of virtual hearings is to be

:00:10. > :00:13.commended in terms of protecting the vulnerable from those accused of

:00:14. > :00:17.certain crimes, including rape, and also in terms of making justice and

:00:18. > :00:21.efficient. How much more efficient to have police and electronically

:00:22. > :00:23.brought in from the stations online rather than to have them hanging

:00:24. > :00:28.around in court waiting for cases with nothing else to do. Having said

:00:29. > :00:33.that we need good procedural Wilshere to keep the trial is fair,

:00:34. > :00:36.I appreciate, and in some ways the technology is still being developed.

:00:37. > :00:40.I was speaking recently to a criminal district judge who said

:00:41. > :00:44.that he was all in favour of court cameras, except when they didn't

:00:45. > :00:48.work, which was all too frequent for his liking. Apparently private

:00:49. > :00:52.companies who dealt with bridging linkups act strictly to timetables

:00:53. > :00:55.that sometimes do not tie in with the court timings. Are these types

:00:56. > :01:00.of practical issues now going to be ironed out? Of course this will be

:01:01. > :01:04.even more relevant as the act proposes that criminal cases could

:01:05. > :01:08.be conducted virtually, that is where all court participants join

:01:09. > :01:11.the hearing through a live link. The proposal to balance the tech

:01:12. > :01:15.developments with an ability for the public and media tribute virtual

:01:16. > :01:19.courts online is a good safeguard, and a modern reassertion of the old

:01:20. > :01:26.principle that justice needs to be seen to be done. Finally I note that

:01:27. > :01:30.the proposals to reorganise the magistracy and make it a unified

:01:31. > :01:35.judiciary, this is, I believe, exactly right and will provide a

:01:36. > :01:39.similar adaptability when the County Courts were unified and it will

:01:40. > :01:43.actually enhance the concept of the magistrate as a nationally qualified

:01:44. > :01:49.judge, rather than a person tied to a particular bench. I do think that

:01:50. > :01:55.this is a bill that will do much to move our justice system into modern

:01:56. > :02:01.ways of organisation and efficiency. I just want to focus on a number of

:02:02. > :02:04.points in the bill and as my honourable friend for Leeds East

:02:05. > :02:07.said in his opening remarks, the Labour Party will not oppose the

:02:08. > :02:11.bill but that does not mean that we cannot take steps to try and improve

:02:12. > :02:15.from ministers as to what the bill from ministers as to what the bill

:02:16. > :02:21.means in practice, and what the impact of the bill 's provisions

:02:22. > :02:26.mean in practice because like the minister I support the aims of

:02:27. > :02:30.clause one of the bill which says prison is to protect the public,

:02:31. > :02:33.rehabilitate and reform offenders and prepare prisoners for life

:02:34. > :02:37.outside prison and maintain an environment that is safe and secure

:02:38. > :02:42.and nobody can disagree with those objectives, but we do, Madam Deputy

:02:43. > :02:46.Speaker, as indeed my right honourable friend for Camberwell and

:02:47. > :02:49.Peckham said in an excellent speech, there are a number of challenges

:02:50. > :02:55.that the current prison system faces, which are not challenges that

:02:56. > :02:59.have come from nowhere, they have come from deliberate decisions from

:03:00. > :03:04.government policy which the bill has an opportunity to at least look at

:03:05. > :03:08.and potentially rectify. My right honourable friend covered some of

:03:09. > :03:13.the statistics but they are worthy of repetition because we do have a

:03:14. > :03:19.situation whereby now 76 of the prisons in the state, 60%, are

:03:20. > :03:22.overcrowded, and deemed overcrowded by the prisons inspector. We have a

:03:23. > :03:26.position whereby we have an increase of 39% in the number of deaths in

:03:27. > :03:34.prison custody in the last year. We have an increase of 32% in

:03:35. > :03:39.self-inflicted deaths, and we have a massive increase of 22% in the

:03:40. > :03:45.number of self harm incidents reported. We have an increase in the

:03:46. > :03:51.number of assaults on staff and on fellow prisoners by prisoner. If we

:03:52. > :03:55.have an increase in the number of psychoactive substances that have

:03:56. > :03:57.been found in prison. We have an increase in the number of mobile

:03:58. > :04:02.phones that have been found in prison and are therefore getting

:04:03. > :04:07.into prison and we have sadly, as has been mentioned by my honourable

:04:08. > :04:14.friend, a reduction in the number of prison officers by 6335, 20 6% of

:04:15. > :04:22.prison officers falling in their last seven years. These facts do

:04:23. > :04:26.have, in my view, a link. The fact that we have a smaller number of

:04:27. > :04:29.prison officers and we have the same number of prisoners in heaven --

:04:30. > :04:33.prison, and we had prisoners who for a range of reasons are more

:04:34. > :04:37.difficult and more challenging and have been convicted very often a

:04:38. > :04:41.more violent offences means that impact of the prison officer numbers

:04:42. > :04:46.on those statistics is real and effective. I do not object, in fact

:04:47. > :04:51.I support the aims of clause one of the bill, I think we do need to look

:04:52. > :04:55.at what it means in practice and look to have a white Paper in

:04:56. > :04:59.practice links to those objectives. My right honourable friend for

:05:00. > :05:04.Camberwell and Peckham in that excellent speech has made some very

:05:05. > :05:08.positive suggestions in relation to clause one. Timings in cell are

:05:09. > :05:12.extremely important. We need to look at how we link in and establish

:05:13. > :05:17.mechanisms to recognise and support people who have mental health

:05:18. > :05:22.problems. I would add to her list one of family link and distance from

:05:23. > :05:26.home. In the last 12 months I have had to constituency cases, never

:05:27. > :05:30.mind anything else through being a member of the Justice committee, to

:05:31. > :05:34.constituency cases where constituents of mine from North

:05:35. > :05:39.Wales are in first of all the Isle of Wight, in a prison in the Isle of

:05:40. > :05:43.Wight, and secondly in Norwich. The -- for those who do not know the

:05:44. > :05:48.geography of this, the Isle of Wight is 273 miles from my constituency,

:05:49. > :05:51.11 hours on a train. Knowledge is six hours on a train for my

:05:52. > :05:59.constituency and four point five Hours Drive. -- Norwich. If one of

:06:00. > :06:02.the key purposes is reform and rehabilitation surely contact with

:06:03. > :06:07.family is critical to that achievement. I will give way. And

:06:08. > :06:13.grateful. Will he not agree that those two examples could be

:06:14. > :06:17.replicated, but even worse, when one is dealing with young offenders.

:06:18. > :06:20.There are obviously fewer young offender institution that you often

:06:21. > :06:26.find that youngsters are being passed around in the back of these

:06:27. > :06:30.select boxes for hours and hours and hours after court hours and not get

:06:31. > :06:33.into their final destination ant hill nearly midnight, and that is

:06:34. > :06:40.not a good way to rehabilitate anybody. I support the honourable

:06:41. > :06:44.gentleman 's comments. He will know and I know that these matters are

:06:45. > :06:47.not easy to solve. They are difficult challenges to solve. Key

:06:48. > :06:51.to the debate today is what can we do in relation to the bill to

:06:52. > :06:57.perhaps potentially, as my right honourable friend has said, and the

:06:58. > :07:01.question of family into part of the purpose, the statutory back-up of

:07:02. > :07:02.the bill. I was prisons Minister for two years and one month and I know

:07:03. > :07:28.it is difficult. It is a difficult job and difficult policy

:07:29. > :07:32.to change. There are opportunities for us to look at it. In a time that

:07:33. > :07:34.we have I hope the Minister will reflect on these matters steering

:07:35. > :07:36.committee and look at how we can strengthen the objective is to

:07:37. > :07:39.achieve the objectives of the clause with the actions that are taken. I

:07:40. > :07:42.speak now on behalf of the Justice committee and I welcome the fact

:07:43. > :07:44.that the inspectorate is clause two of the bill is being put on a

:07:45. > :07:46.statutory footing. We recognise that the role in visiting places of

:07:47. > :07:48.detention is now a positive development and we recognise and

:07:49. > :07:51.support that the Chief inspector will have regard to the new

:07:52. > :07:53.statutory purpose in prison and I particularly welcome the fact that

:07:54. > :07:55.the government has to respond to the Chief inspectors recommendation

:07:56. > :07:58.within 28 days if urgent or within 90 days with a general expects in

:07:59. > :08:04.and that we have some scrutiny of what those inspections powers are. I

:08:05. > :08:11.welcome the fact that the prisons and probation ombudsman will also be

:08:12. > :08:14.put on a statutory footing and the clause is between four and 20 do

:08:15. > :08:18.that in an effective way. The minister needs to take into account

:08:19. > :08:24.the fact that the Justice committee has welcomed that and I also put

:08:25. > :08:31.down an aspect of challenge that the government accepted the committee

:08:32. > :08:35.recommendation in finalising the protocol on HMI P inspectorate, that

:08:36. > :08:41.it would look at that protocol and produce a final protocol before this

:08:42. > :08:44.bill was published in second reading and the committee was consulted in

:08:45. > :08:49.January on draft protocol but as far as I am aware so far not one final

:08:50. > :08:54.protocol has been agreed and not a final protocol has been published,

:08:55. > :08:57.so I worked again in this developing discussion say that I welcome the

:08:58. > :09:03.statutory footing but I think it is important that we have publication

:09:04. > :09:09.of that protocol at an early stage so that we can look at that and

:09:10. > :09:12.develop it accordingly. The protocol the Justice committee recommended

:09:13. > :09:14.was over when you go on the relationship between the

:09:15. > :09:18.inspectorate and the Ministry of Justice and it has not yet been

:09:19. > :09:21.published. The draft has been published but we need to see in the

:09:22. > :09:25.context of this debate what the relationship is.

:09:26. > :09:31.I also just want to, given the time, talk a little bit about whiplash

:09:32. > :09:35.because the Justice Committee again... This is a challenge for the

:09:36. > :09:42.Minister and four Government, the Justice Committee listened to the

:09:43. > :09:45.committee of insurers and the Association of legal professionals

:09:46. > :09:52.dealing with whiplash cases. I have the say we were not convinced of the

:09:53. > :09:54.governments's case to date. So I'm convinced where we of the

:09:55. > :09:58.governments's case that we have now established a follow-up enquiry

:09:59. > :10:07.which the Minister will have undoubtedly seen. This will call for

:10:08. > :10:10.evidence on whiplash. We have as for now a full enquiry by the Justice

:10:11. > :10:15.Committee with terms of reference and looking at the definitions of

:10:16. > :10:20.whiplash and the prevalence of road traffic accidents with whiplash

:10:21. > :10:24.related claims. Whether or not the governments's fraudulent whiplash

:10:25. > :10:33.claims claims that up, whether they will regulate -- stack up. And

:10:34. > :10:39.particularly to look at the impact of raising the small claims limit to

:10:40. > :10:50.?5,000 for road traffic accidents/ small claims. While this is not in

:10:51. > :10:53.the bill. Also, the role of claims management companies, which have not

:10:54. > :11:02.really been torched on to date. The challenge for the Minister again is

:11:03. > :11:05.when the committee and report stage that rack touched on. Hopefully

:11:06. > :11:12.influencing that debate looking at these matters, the Minister as to

:11:13. > :11:16.come forward and convince this house that the policy he is bringing

:11:17. > :11:18.forward on a cross-party basis with the Justice Committee meet those

:11:19. > :11:21.objectives because I'm still concerned that the claims the

:11:22. > :11:26.Government has made about savings being passed on to motorists and

:11:27. > :11:31.about the level of fraud in the system are not yet tested to the

:11:32. > :11:34.extent of my satisfaction or indeed by the fact the Justice Committee is

:11:35. > :11:39.looking at these matters to the cross-party Justice Committee which,

:11:40. > :11:43.remember, has a conservative majority in it. The consultation

:11:44. > :11:49.paper attached to this also sets out no rationales at all from employment

:11:50. > :11:55.injuries and building reform of Will lash claims. -- whiplash. They stick

:11:56. > :12:01.to the Chancellor last week and was told that the employment injury

:12:02. > :12:09.aspect would be dealt with by SI at the completion of measures in this

:12:10. > :12:12.bill by whiplash. The aspect of whiplash in the bill is the carrot

:12:13. > :12:17.and the ability for the judge to enhance that by 20%. There is a

:12:18. > :12:25.perfectly separate secondary legislation route for which the

:12:26. > :12:29.small claims limit is raised or can be reduced. -- tariff. It is not in

:12:30. > :12:36.this case. I have said to the Minister that they are not in the

:12:37. > :12:39.bill, there's aspect, but a sense they are linked any sense at the

:12:40. > :12:44.Government's consideration of whiplash and you pretty whiplash

:12:45. > :12:56.will be linked in terms of approach to the... The wind of raising the

:12:57. > :13:05.threshold for small claims limit 's is that it relates ?5,000 full load

:13:06. > :13:10.traffic whiplash related claims. -- for road traffic. And then it is

:13:11. > :13:14.?2000. What I'm saying is that the Justice Committee believes those two

:13:15. > :13:19.matters still have a tangential link and that is why the Justice

:13:20. > :13:23.Committee is looking at these provisions for whiplash as part of

:13:24. > :13:26.the year in, it is linked into that the consideration of the employment

:13:27. > :13:29.levels because they are very much aware that, as well as the potential

:13:30. > :13:34.examination of the governments's case for whiplash, there needs to

:13:35. > :13:38.be, at the same time, an examination of the governments's case for

:13:39. > :13:45.industrial injuries and employment injuries. There are a myriad of

:13:46. > :13:49.cases. I don't think now is the time, I'll do them at a later date,

:13:50. > :13:53.but there are a myriad number of cases where industrial injury claims

:13:54. > :13:59.would be detrimental the impacted by the change in the limit. Whilst that

:14:00. > :14:03.is not directly in the Dell... Well, the Minister doesn't work any things

:14:04. > :14:07.even influence I would again where people in my constituency depend on

:14:08. > :14:12.that level of employment injury support to ensure they get justice

:14:13. > :14:16.at work. --. We will return to that at a later date and the Minister is

:14:17. > :14:20.looking quizzical. You will have an opportunity with my colleagues in

:14:21. > :14:23.the Justice Committee to explain his proposals with those of whiplash in

:14:24. > :14:29.the bill to the Justice Committee in due course. To finalise, I would say

:14:30. > :14:34.this. The bill itself as a direction of travel which I think can be

:14:35. > :14:38.supported and you'd be supported. However, the eve of this Bill is

:14:39. > :14:44.what really matters. There are measures the Government can take to

:14:45. > :14:49.improve the bill, reduce the poor indicators growing in their

:14:50. > :14:52.disparity over the past few years over staffing and the type of

:14:53. > :14:57.measures looking at the issues my right honourable friend and those at

:14:58. > :15:05.the Justice Committee seeks the governments to look at a game. --

:15:06. > :15:09.again. Thank you. They say what a great pleasure it is to follow on

:15:10. > :15:13.from the honourable gentleman who speaks with considerable authority

:15:14. > :15:18.when he speaks in this house. May I also start off with repairing

:15:19. > :15:24.members to -- referring members to the interest that I'm now a

:15:25. > :15:30.practising solicitor all. I welcome this Bill. I firmly believe that we

:15:31. > :15:34.have one of the finest if not the finest legal systems in the world. I

:15:35. > :15:38.think the measures that are putting this Bill will ensure that we can

:15:39. > :15:44.maintain our prominent position on the global legal system. I would

:15:45. > :15:50.like to start off by making some comments as regard to the court

:15:51. > :15:56.reform proposals. It's important to recognise that, when we talk about

:15:57. > :16:02.access to justice, we don't mean access being in a physical building

:16:03. > :16:07.called a court. That was an argument I had with many colleagues when I

:16:08. > :16:14.was a minister in charge of call and I had to convey the bad news that

:16:15. > :16:18.many courts where to close. -- courts. The member for Huntingdon

:16:19. > :16:25.had to do likewise a few years beforehand. What this bill does is

:16:26. > :16:30.fulfil what we said in that there are different ways of accessing

:16:31. > :16:34.justice and call. -- courts. I always remember what an African

:16:35. > :16:38.justice minister once said to me. He said he wanted to have a justice

:16:39. > :16:43.system in his country whereby the people living in the villages

:16:44. > :16:47.outside the capital city could access justice through their

:16:48. > :16:51.smartphones. The world is moving on and it's good to see that we are

:16:52. > :16:55.keeping pace with technology that goes with it. I particularly welcome

:16:56. > :17:01.parts two and four of the bill, which deal with the court reform

:17:02. > :17:06.measures. In the past, we have concentrated, all the legal system

:17:07. > :17:11.have concentrated rather too much on process and procedure. But I'm very

:17:12. > :17:17.pleased that this Bill puts the court user centre space and ensure

:17:18. > :17:23.that we have a system that is good for them. The changes will mean that

:17:24. > :17:30.the public who use the court will not necessarily mean to -- have to

:17:31. > :17:34.spend huge time, cost or indeed have to spend their time physically

:17:35. > :17:48.waking and hanging around in a court. -- waging. -- waiting. Having

:17:49. > :17:53.hearings where no party is present in the courtroom. They attended by

:17:54. > :17:59.telephone or video conferencing facilities. The provision of

:18:00. > :18:02.evidence by video link is good for victims and witnesses, particularly

:18:03. > :18:06.vulnerable witnesses and it has to be right that we can have prisoners

:18:07. > :18:11.staying in prison from where they give a video evidence, rather than

:18:12. > :18:16.the time, effort and cost of transporting them to court and

:18:17. > :18:21.transporting them back. Which often leads to delay is because they get

:18:22. > :18:26.caught up in traffic delays. Of course, the modern way of having

:18:27. > :18:31.video conferencing facilities means that witnesses can easily give

:18:32. > :18:37.evidence when they are overseas. It also means that lawyers then have to

:18:38. > :18:40.hang around job outside the courtroom, waiting for ever and a

:18:41. > :18:46.day until they get their ten minutes before the judge. For example, for a

:18:47. > :18:52.bail application. What they can now do is that the barristers can do is

:18:53. > :18:56.stay in their offices and the judges in their chambers, and they can

:18:57. > :19:00.simply good a time when they were all speak and they can have their

:19:01. > :19:08.ten minute conversation. And the bail application can go through. The

:19:09. > :19:11.bill proposes that, whether -- where there are low level offences in the

:19:12. > :19:18.majority are, and where offenders are charged with summary only known

:19:19. > :19:22.violent offences, such as not having a TV licence, and where there is a

:19:23. > :19:25.guilty plea, the offenders can be convicted and given standard

:19:26. > :19:31.penalties by use of an online procedure. Effectively, what this

:19:32. > :19:36.means is that people can come from the lottery of their sitting rooms,

:19:37. > :19:41.using their smartphones, deal with access to justice. And deal with

:19:42. > :19:50.these matters online. Of course, it is important to recognise that where

:19:51. > :19:53.people need not guilty then, for them, the majesty of the court still

:19:54. > :20:00.remains and they can have their court cases in the usual way. For

:20:01. > :20:05.civil cases, I welcome the proposal that in civil cases, proclaimed up

:20:06. > :20:13.to ?25,000, there will be simple, online hearings. -- for claims. It

:20:14. > :20:19.is awarded to remember that some cases may have to go online --

:20:20. > :20:23.off-line. I'm therefore pleased that the bill provides for that and I

:20:24. > :20:30.very much hope that, in this surge towards technological advances, we

:20:31. > :20:33.will never keep that option where, for whatever reason, some cases do

:20:34. > :20:40.have duly dealt with in the usual way and they will be done so. We

:20:41. > :20:46.also have, at present, very complex forms, which are full of legal

:20:47. > :20:52.language. They can be very difficult to deal with. I very much hope that,

:20:53. > :20:57.as they used new forms and get online, that the justice system will

:20:58. > :21:04.use the opportunity to make those forms easier and far more

:21:05. > :21:10.user-friendly. I also hope that the Minister will recognise that not

:21:11. > :21:15.everyone uses modern technology. Some people cannot use it. For

:21:16. > :21:20.example, the elderly and some people who are disabled. I hope the

:21:21. > :21:24.minister will be able to give us an assurance wager that, for those

:21:25. > :21:32.people, it will still remain that there was the opportunity to speak

:21:33. > :21:35.by phone to a person to person meeting as necessary because,

:21:36. > :21:41.otherwise, we are denying access to justice for some people. I would

:21:42. > :21:45.also urged the Minister to ensure that the technological advances that

:21:46. > :21:52.we speak of are such that they are not rendered redundant. Very soon.

:21:53. > :21:59.Advances in technology that we have are so vast that millions of pounds

:22:00. > :22:07.spent to date can suddenly be spent on a system that is outdated in a

:22:08. > :22:13.year or two. I very much I that even ensure his civil servants tried to

:22:14. > :22:22.have a technological system which well how Al for easy adaptation to

:22:23. > :22:26.more when and how they arise. -- will allow for. And that I had a

:22:27. > :22:30.good cost. Part four of the bill, along with schedule 15, deals with

:22:31. > :22:35.the judiciary and the judicial appointments commission. There are

:22:36. > :22:40.various references to senior judicial appointments. I wish to

:22:41. > :22:47.make a general point as regards to appointments. To be absolutely

:22:48. > :22:49.clear, I believe, and I think most people do, that all judicial

:22:50. > :23:00.appointments should be made on merit. That is crucial. That being

:23:01. > :23:06.said, it is fair to say that we still need to make serious advances

:23:07. > :23:09.in terms of having more women, more disabled people, more people from

:23:10. > :23:16.ethnic minorities, more people from a variety of backgrounds, who hold

:23:17. > :23:24.senior judicial positions. And I very much hope that the Ministry of

:23:25. > :23:27.Justice and the judiciary and the judicial appointments commission,

:23:28. > :23:34.will ensure that we continue to have a judicial system that is reflective

:23:35. > :23:40.of the country at large. Sadly, there are still people who believe

:23:41. > :23:44.that it is a question of the old boy network as to whether one gets

:23:45. > :23:49.promoted to senior levels. It is a question of whether they belong to

:23:50. > :23:53.the right dining clubs, golf club, whether they went to the right

:23:54. > :23:57.school or the right university. And there are some people who simply

:23:58. > :24:02.don't read full their names for senior positions -- put forward.

:24:03. > :24:06.Because that is what they believe. Of course, much advance has been

:24:07. > :24:10.made but I very much hope we will to persuade the candidates that they

:24:11. > :24:13.should put themselves forward if they do believe that they may not

:24:14. > :24:20.get through because of the old boy network.

:24:21. > :24:30.The I am mindful of time, as far as prisons are concerned I welcome

:24:31. > :24:35.section 21 that allows public communication providers to block the

:24:36. > :24:39.use of unauthorised mobile phones in prisons. Frankly it is absurd that

:24:40. > :24:46.this has not been done earlier, and it is high time that it was done. I

:24:47. > :24:51.also welcome the provisions in section 22 that allow more powers to

:24:52. > :24:55.test for psychoactive substances in prisons so that prison authorities

:24:56. > :25:02.are able to respond quickly to new drugs. In prisons people are put

:25:03. > :25:07.there because they have to be punished. We all recognise that it

:25:08. > :25:13.is important that we have a regime of education and training so that

:25:14. > :25:18.those individuals, when they are outside again, can play a useful

:25:19. > :25:24.role to society. We rightly talk about education and training, but I

:25:25. > :25:29.think we should talk as much about the health of those prisoners.

:25:30. > :25:32.Particularly mental health. Colleagues from both sides of the

:25:33. > :25:37.house had made reference to mental illness and I very much hope that

:25:38. > :25:42.the minister will be able to give us assurances that it is an issue that

:25:43. > :25:48.he will ensure is looked into to ensure that people who are genuinely

:25:49. > :25:53.unwell, and suffering from mental illnesses, get the treatment that

:25:54. > :25:59.they require in prison. I conclude by simply saying that I welcome this

:26:00. > :26:03.bill and I am particularly pleased that notwithstanding some of the

:26:04. > :26:08.differences that we have on the political divide, nonetheless there

:26:09. > :26:12.was much that we agree on, and I wish the bill well as it progresses

:26:13. > :26:22.through to eventual Royal assent. Thank you. I also welcome much of

:26:23. > :26:27.the contents of this bill and I am very pleased to follow the

:26:28. > :26:30.honourable member for North West Cambridgeshire and I particularly

:26:31. > :26:33.endorse the comments he made in relation to judicial diversity. This

:26:34. > :26:36.is a far reaching piece of legislation although as far as

:26:37. > :26:40.prison reform in particular is concerned we have two into quite a

:26:41. > :26:44.lot of the detail from the white Paper because as others have said,

:26:45. > :26:49.the bill is relatively thin and I'm detailed but like others I very much

:26:50. > :26:53.welcome the establishment of a new statutory purpose for prisons and I

:26:54. > :26:57.also hope that as we take the bill through this house and the other

:26:58. > :27:01.place that there will be opportunities to strengthen and

:27:02. > :27:05.extend it. The Prison Reform Trust have suggested that the statutory

:27:06. > :27:09.purpose should make explicit reference to standards of fairness

:27:10. > :27:14.and decency and, given the problems that we face in our prisons today,

:27:15. > :27:19.the exceptional amount of time that prisoners are landing in cells,

:27:20. > :27:24.engaged, not engaged in purposeful activity, the disturbances that have

:27:25. > :27:28.put in prison and staff safety at risk and the appalling mentor health

:27:29. > :27:31.of many of those in our prisons, I very strongly endorse the need for a

:27:32. > :27:36.purpose that captures those elements of fairness and decency. Like many

:27:37. > :27:41.honourable members who have spoken today I expressed particular concern

:27:42. > :27:46.and the need for good mental health care. At least three or 4% of

:27:47. > :27:49.prisoners have a psychotic illness and 1014% a major depressive illness

:27:50. > :27:55.and up to two thirds a personality disorder according to the Royal

:27:56. > :27:58.College of psychiatrists and many prisoners are so unwell that prison

:27:59. > :28:04.is utterly the wrong place to treat them. I have seen this very starkly

:28:05. > :28:08.in handling a constituency case in the last few months, a case that is

:28:09. > :28:13.really showing that the system doesn't work to ensure that

:28:14. > :28:18.prisoners mental health is paramount. It is a case of a young

:28:19. > :28:22.man accused of a very serious offences and who has been on remand

:28:23. > :28:29.in Manchester prison since before Christmas. He is seriously psychotic

:28:30. > :28:35.and prison is probably not the right price for him to have ever been sent

:28:36. > :28:39.to and yet for months on no secure hospital bed has been found where he

:28:40. > :28:44.can be securely and appropriately cared for so I very strongly endorse

:28:45. > :28:46.the call of my right honourable friend from Camberwell and Peckham

:28:47. > :28:49.that we should have statutory time limits in the bill in relation to

:28:50. > :28:55.the length of time that someone who is so unwell could be kept in

:28:56. > :28:58.prison. I think it is a very important measure that we need to

:28:59. > :29:02.take to ensure parity of esteem between mental health and physical

:29:03. > :29:07.health exist in our prisons, as it does more widely in our health care

:29:08. > :29:10.system. We also know that women in custody have a high incidence of

:29:11. > :29:16.mental health problems and this year we mark tenth anniversary of

:29:17. > :29:19.Baroness Corston 's seminal report into women in custody and a real

:29:20. > :29:23.opportunity I think to make a step change in the way the deal with

:29:24. > :29:25.women in the penal system. The Justice Secretary said that she

:29:26. > :29:29.intends to bring forward a strategy in relation to women in the next few

:29:30. > :29:34.weeks and I very much look forward to looking at that and debating with

:29:35. > :29:37.the government. Can I say to ministers, I hope that the

:29:38. > :29:42.government will take this opportunity not simply to build more

:29:43. > :29:47.new women's prisons far from home and too large to provide the right

:29:48. > :29:51.regime for the particular needs of women. Baroness Corston suggested

:29:52. > :29:54.the need for small and local secure units, not prisons, but those that

:29:55. > :29:59.very particularly catered for the needs of women and this is such an

:30:00. > :30:02.important and once in a generation chance for ministers to transform

:30:03. > :30:06.the next gen are -- nature of the women's estate and I hope they will

:30:07. > :30:12.not miss this opportunity. I am also concerned that the government seems

:30:13. > :30:17.intent on new, large male prisons which I understand will have a

:30:18. > :30:20.population of 2000 prisoners but there are evidence of small prisons

:30:21. > :30:23.doing better according to the centre of social justice and the Prison

:30:24. > :30:26.Reform Trust that showed that prisons with fewer than 400

:30:27. > :30:32.prisoners were more likely to form well than those with 800 and the

:30:33. > :30:37.National Audit Office had a 2018 report that showed small prisons had

:30:38. > :30:40.better ratings. What we don't know is whether there is a difference in

:30:41. > :30:44.reoffending rates between small and large prisons and I would be

:30:45. > :30:47.grateful to hear of anyone in the house can enlighten me on that. If

:30:48. > :30:50.we don't have that information can I very strongly urge ministers to

:30:51. > :30:57.conduct a programme of research to understand that. What we do know,

:30:58. > :31:02.and my right honourable friend referred to this in detail is the

:31:03. > :31:04.importance of family contact and incarceration a long way from home

:31:05. > :31:09.naturally makes that more difficult and according to a 2008 study for

:31:10. > :31:14.the Ministry of Justice family contact reduces recidivism by 39%,

:31:15. > :31:17.that is a substantial reduction. A joint report from Her Majesty 's

:31:18. > :31:21.Inspectorate of prisons and the youth Justice board found that boys

:31:22. > :31:24.who suffered from emotional or mental health problems were less

:31:25. > :31:28.likely to usually have a visitor at least once a week from family and

:31:29. > :31:32.friends than those without mental health problems and yet half of

:31:33. > :31:37.women and one quarter of many on remand receive no family visits.

:31:38. > :31:41.Concentrating prisoners in larger prisons further from home, covering

:31:42. > :31:44.large geographical areas will work against family contact which can

:31:45. > :31:50.make such a difference and I will give away. I totally and utterly

:31:51. > :31:57.endorse all of this speech, that sets out so tragically the fact of

:31:58. > :32:02.women in prison and the difficulties of maintaining their family contact

:32:03. > :32:09.and how often their children end up in care, or farmed out to family

:32:10. > :32:11.members, who can't travel the long distance, particular view a Welsh

:32:12. > :32:15.woman and you have to travel into England to get to see your mum in

:32:16. > :32:21.prison and actually damages the family cohesion that we know is so

:32:22. > :32:25.vital in terms of rehabilitation. I completely agree with my honourable

:32:26. > :32:28.friend and we know that in particular for women in custody, it

:32:29. > :32:30.is women who are usually the main carers of children and the

:32:31. > :32:34.consequences can be devastating, not just for those women but for the

:32:35. > :32:40.children who ought to be our paramount consideration. I support

:32:41. > :32:43.calls which have been put forward by the prison rights and care trust

:32:44. > :32:47.among others that it should be a requirement among sentences to

:32:48. > :32:50.specifically ask about provision for the children of parents who are

:32:51. > :32:54.about to be sentenced to custody, particularly to know where they will

:32:55. > :32:58.spend our first night as their parent faces incarceration. Finally

:32:59. > :33:02.on presents, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we're serious about prison reform

:33:03. > :33:05.I believe we have to face the fact that our fundamental problem is

:33:06. > :33:06.sentencing policy. We incarcerate too many people who don't need to be

:33:07. > :33:23.there and it cost a great deal of and on release too many

:33:24. > :33:26.resume offending. I could not agree more with the Lord Chief Justice --

:33:27. > :33:28.Lord Chief Justice who told the select committee last year that the

:33:29. > :33:30.focus needs to be more rigorous more demanding effective community

:33:31. > :33:32.penalties but those penalties must be available and sentences must have

:33:33. > :33:34.knowledge and confidence in them and that cuts to budgets and

:33:35. > :33:41.presentencing reports and problems with community rehabilitation. I

:33:42. > :33:48.want to comment very briefly on the extensive proposals in the bill in

:33:49. > :33:53.relation to core performance and I have a life interest as a member of

:33:54. > :33:56.the magistrates Association. I recognise the opportunities that

:33:57. > :33:58.modern technology can offer to an official court system but I echo

:33:59. > :34:03.concerns about how vulnerable users will fare in a virtual system. The

:34:04. > :34:07.virtual courts pilot of several years ago offers us very little

:34:08. > :34:10.reassurance, and the impact assessment that the government has

:34:11. > :34:16.produced to accompany this bill tells us nearly nothing. There are

:34:17. > :34:19.real concerns, highlighted by transforming justice amongst others,

:34:20. > :34:25.about the lack of access to legal advice, the impact on lawyer/ client

:34:26. > :34:29.relationships and the intra- act on sentencing, it seems there maybe

:34:30. > :34:32.some inflationary the fairness of the process, public perception and

:34:33. > :34:38.the cost to the public purse, which the impact assessment is quite vague

:34:39. > :34:41.about. I share the concerns of the magistrates Association and others

:34:42. > :34:48.regarding the use of online courts in relation to remand and sentencing

:34:49. > :34:52.vulnerable young people. Significant numbers of those imprisoned have low

:34:53. > :34:54.levels of literacy, numerous seats, or suffer from learning disabilities

:34:55. > :34:57.and they struggled to present their case in the best possible light.

:34:58. > :35:01.They may agree to their case been dealt with in writing or online

:35:02. > :35:04.because it is quick and it gets it over with and it is suggested to

:35:05. > :35:07.them by a police officer in a police station, but that does not

:35:08. > :35:12.necessarily serve the best interests of justice. I also understand the

:35:13. > :35:16.arguments which the honourable member for Huntingdon who is not

:35:17. > :35:22.currently in the chambermaid about the loss of the local justice area

:35:23. > :35:25.being an opportunity for a unified registry and judiciary, but I would

:35:26. > :35:30.say there are advantages as well to local justice, and as the justice

:35:31. > :35:34.select committee identified on its report on the magistrates state last

:35:35. > :35:38.year, the loss of the local justice area must not mean losing the

:35:39. > :35:42.leadership, the peer support, which helps the bench to function