25/04/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.understand the honourable gentleman has been campaigning on this issue

:00:00. > :00:07.for some time. He cannot make bitterness because we are in purdah.

:00:08. > :00:18.-- we cannot make commitments because BR in purdah. Thank you, Mr

:00:19. > :00:22.Speaker. I seek your advice on parliamentary protocol in a member

:00:23. > :00:32.of that into another member's constituents as part of a campaign.

:00:33. > :00:38.Conservative brand of paper out of the camera cut it Castle Alexis.

:00:39. > :00:44.Asking them to vote for the Conservative candidates. I know a

:00:45. > :00:48.summit in her own constituency that have not received any such litter.

:00:49. > :00:56.This is the second time that she has been campaigning for the

:00:57. > :01:01.Conservative latte, using high status as a MP in my constituency

:01:02. > :01:06.without informing. She is fully aware that in the British

:01:07. > :01:09.parliamentary system one member represents a single constituency and

:01:10. > :01:16.conventions have developed so that one in the's relations with her

:01:17. > :01:19.constituents are preserved. I have had a number of complaints from

:01:20. > :01:27.constituents, some of whom are now confused as to proved a member of

:01:28. > :01:31.Parliament is. My constituency office is receiving phone calls from

:01:32. > :01:37.constituents who think this must been the boundary changes have gone

:01:38. > :01:43.through and may not probably Debra presented. As far as I'm concerned,

:01:44. > :01:45.this is unacceptable. I'd be grateful for your comments and

:01:46. > :01:58.advice on this serious matter. Hasn't it always been the case that

:01:59. > :02:01.there is a member right on Conservative Party notepaper a

:02:02. > :02:08.political message to anyone, that is in order. It is only if you are

:02:09. > :02:12.representing yourself as an MP on a particular constituency using our

:02:13. > :02:25.stations stationery that it as a problem. I would like to clarify

:02:26. > :02:30.that the letters assigned... MP. We can and won't have a debate on the

:02:31. > :02:33.matter. The honourable lady was courtesy and after giver her

:02:34. > :02:41.intentions to raise this matter, for which I thank her. I'm attending to

:02:42. > :02:46.the substance of what he says and to the remarks of the Minister. I must

:02:47. > :02:53.say to her, that disquiet in Google experience may have been, and

:02:54. > :02:57.relatively irregularly although it may occur, it is not clear to me

:02:58. > :03:04.that the honourable member has broken any convention. It is not

:03:05. > :03:12.clear to me. It is certainly at invention to notify any member of an

:03:13. > :03:16.intention to visit Anna public capacity, it is also very well

:03:17. > :03:20.established that a member should not purport to represent an offer to

:03:21. > :03:28.represent people who are not hierarchies constituents. Writing,

:03:29. > :03:33.however, and a campaigning context on party notepaper, though it may

:03:34. > :03:39.not happen very frequently, is not, and have experience in these

:03:40. > :03:41.the long-standing convention. What I the long-standing convention. What I

:03:42. > :03:49.would like to say to the honourable lady because I tutor can send

:03:50. > :03:53.seriously. I do appreciate the concern, but it does seem to me that

:03:54. > :04:00.Carter sees between members of the House, which are important, at best

:04:01. > :04:03.arrived at and adhered to by informal discussions between

:04:04. > :04:12.colleagues. It is not desirable that they should ritually attempted to be

:04:13. > :04:17.resolved by being raised on this floor of the House with each year.

:04:18. > :04:25.That is to say, this is very clear, that is to say, they are not matters

:04:26. > :04:28.of order, they are matters of an informal agreement and

:04:29. > :04:36.understanding. It is much better between neighbouring colleagues if

:04:37. > :04:44.such understandings can be reached. We believe it there for now. Members

:04:45. > :04:56.are perfectly free to go if this wet. We a point of order. Question

:04:57. > :05:02.should be answered in a timely and substantive manner. On the 24th of

:05:03. > :05:08.manager I tabled a question asking how much the Government spent on

:05:09. > :05:15.advertising and the Evening Standard newspaper in the last financial

:05:16. > :05:17.year. Over a month later, I still haven't received a substantive

:05:18. > :05:24.answer to the question. The Government announced they would

:05:25. > :05:30.winding down without providing an answer. The public might draw an

:05:31. > :05:37.occlusion may have something embarrassing they don't want to be

:05:38. > :05:43.revealed during an election campaign. As anything the Speaker

:05:44. > :05:51.can do to compel them to reveal matters like this? I appreciate his

:05:52. > :05:58.concern. The content of ministers answers is not a matter for the

:05:59. > :06:05.chair. That is matter is closed to play for the Minister giving a

:06:06. > :06:11.response. However, I would like to repeat my repeated exhortation to

:06:12. > :06:11.ministers to give timely and substantive responses, and excellent

:06:12. > :06:15.teaching and might I am regularly teaching and might I am regularly

:06:16. > :06:21.joined by the Leader of the House. Many ministers at at a premium to

:06:22. > :06:27.add ceiling to that principle and expectation. I do agree that it is

:06:28. > :06:36.unsatisfactory if the Government is unable to get a substantive answer

:06:37. > :06:40.to a named the question tabled well before the date. No doubt the

:06:41. > :06:46.concern articulate it has been heard on the Treasury bench. And so far as

:06:47. > :06:52.seeks my advice, it is encapsulated seeks my advice, it is encapsulated

:06:53. > :06:57.in one sentence. The honourable gentleman should seek to speak to

:06:58. > :07:01.the Leader of the House, the member for Aylesbury, sooner rather than

:07:02. > :07:16.later. LAUGHTER

:07:17. > :07:20.No semicolon was required! I'm always grateful to the honourable

:07:21. > :07:26.gentleman for his observations, even gentleman for his observations, even

:07:27. > :07:30.when they are proffered in a disorderly manner from a sedentary

:07:31. > :07:44.position. If there are no farther points of order. There is a point of

:07:45. > :07:51.order. That is extremely kind of you Mr Speaker. This is from one of the

:07:52. > :07:58.largest buying cooperatives in this country. I gave one of these ties to

:07:59. > :08:03.the last Prime Minister hoping they would wear one,. With the Speaker

:08:04. > :08:14.agree with me that the semicolon is a very ten thing and it should be

:08:15. > :08:18.used more often? I agree. The honourable gentleman as an authority

:08:19. > :08:21.on the matter and on a number of other matters relating to language

:08:22. > :08:28.and syntax. We will leave it there for now. If there are no points of

:08:29. > :08:37.order. We come now to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move that lead

:08:38. > :08:40.be given to bring and a bill to require the Financial Conduct

:08:41. > :08:47.Authority to make rules restricted charges for an offer drives

:08:48. > :08:52.overdrafts in certain circumstances and for certain purposes. I want to

:08:53. > :08:57.begin by urging all parties to include in that election manifesto a

:08:58. > :08:59.commitment to capping charges on these unauthorised overdraft.

:09:00. > :09:03.Following great work by my honourable friend, the member from

:09:04. > :09:08.Walthamstow, huge progress has been made on the charges faced by people

:09:09. > :09:14.who access finance to payday loans with the introduction of a cap.

:09:15. > :09:20.Mandated by the financial services in 2013, the SCA have introduced a

:09:21. > :09:24.cat sitter 24p per month for anyone borrowing 100 pounds for 30 days.

:09:25. > :09:27.Millions of people are struggling with spiralling debts and

:09:28. > :09:32.overdrafts. They deserve to be protected from excessive charges and

:09:33. > :09:37.practices that only make the situation worse. We have seen from

:09:38. > :09:41.the payday loan cap that this can be achieved. Legislation would allow

:09:42. > :09:44.the Financial Conduct Authority to implement a gap without delay, and

:09:45. > :09:51.with out the risk that the banks would also delay. Imagine you are

:09:52. > :09:56.?200 overdrawn. It is not great, but since you have an arranged

:09:57. > :10:01.overdraft, you will not incur charges. It will not cost you

:10:02. > :10:06.anything except for the entrance. Then I direct debit was to MPs into

:10:07. > :10:10.an unauthorised overdraft. Unless you can quickly pay money into your

:10:11. > :10:14.account, you will quickly start to rack up charges. Going as little as

:10:15. > :10:20.?10 overdrawn can mean charges of ?5 per day from your high street bank.

:10:21. > :10:23.Research published in February found that customers needing to borrow as

:10:24. > :10:31.little as ?100 could be charged up to seven times more, ?156, by some

:10:32. > :10:36.major high street banks. The Financial Conduct Authority allows

:10:37. > :10:43.payday loan companies to charge more. Bank overdraft charges only

:10:44. > :10:49.apply to monthly charges. Consumers who need to borrow ?100 could pay up

:10:50. > :10:53.to ?180 in fees if they borrow over two months from the high street bank

:10:54. > :10:57.in the form of an unauthorised overdraft. The same applies if the

:10:58. > :11:00.goods just a few pence over the overdraft limit. These charges are

:11:01. > :11:08.totally disproportionate to the offence committed. Last year, banks

:11:09. > :11:11.made ?1.2 billion from charges an unauthorised overdraft, mostly from

:11:12. > :11:15.financially vulnerable customers. These are customers that banks

:11:16. > :11:19.should be helping, not pitting farther into the red. These are

:11:20. > :11:23.Markets Authority have labelled in Markets Authority have labelled in

:11:24. > :11:28.the report as a captive audience for the banks and the high charges. They

:11:29. > :11:32.have described unauthorised overdraft as the biggest single

:11:33. > :11:38.problem in the personal banking market. Action needs to be taken.

:11:39. > :11:42.The charity estimates that 1.7 million people in the UK are trapped

:11:43. > :11:43.in an overdraft cycle, and consistently use overdraft to meet

:11:44. > :11:51.essential as well as emergency cost. essential as well as emergency cost.

:11:52. > :11:55.Too many vulnerable people who are already struggling regular have to

:11:56. > :12:00.go into an overdraft or over and overdraft limit have the

:12:01. > :12:03.difficulties exacerbated. Many families live constantly and that

:12:04. > :12:10.overdrafts. This is impossible choices between meeting because of

:12:11. > :12:16.essential bells are going farther over their limit. As these build-up,

:12:17. > :12:21.families find it increasingly hard to get out of the date the. Last

:12:22. > :12:27.year, stepped inside with their clients with overdraft debt to

:12:28. > :12:34.explore their experiences. It found that people regular go over their

:12:35. > :12:36.overdraft limit. 62% of the people that the charity helped

:12:37. > :12:40.overdraft let, regularly exceed the overdraft let, regularly exceed the

:12:41. > :12:47.limit as it struggled to make ends meet. These borrowers face average

:12:48. > :12:52.charges of ?45 per month was slipping into an authorised

:12:53. > :12:56.overdraft. This adds up to a massive ?225 per year of unauthorised

:12:57. > :13:02.overdraft charges, and for many people, the charges are much higher

:13:03. > :13:11.than that. The charity has told me of two cases of vulnerable people

:13:12. > :13:14.being placed into debt by the banks. If 42-year-old man racked up

:13:15. > :13:23.overdraft charges after losing his job. And dressed men that on

:13:24. > :13:31.average, 80p per was added to his debt -- ?80 per month. The second

:13:32. > :13:41.case was a 38 killed women, who faced by the overdraft debt. -- a

:13:42. > :13:47.38-year-old woman. She slipped into an unplanned overdraft buying just

:13:48. > :13:52.?90. That led to a cycle in which was consistently and and out of

:13:53. > :13:57.unauthorised overdrafts. Heart overdraft increased by ?1000 due to

:13:58. > :14:00.lose interest charges. These people, like so many others, were already in

:14:01. > :14:05.difficulty and trying to manage their debts from day to day.

:14:06. > :14:08.Overdraft out amongst the most widely used credit products in the

:14:09. > :14:16.market, and form part of a worrying trend in our economy. Saving ratio

:14:17. > :14:22.as a nation is at record low. Our household debt ratio is at 145%, up

:14:23. > :14:28.6% in the past year. Unsecured debt has grown by 10% in just 12 months.

:14:29. > :14:32.I am worried about the sustainability of our personal

:14:33. > :14:37.finances, and are to murder man to heavily reliant on debt and personal

:14:38. > :14:41.borrowing. The Government need to do more to insure our economy is not

:14:42. > :14:44.built on the shallow foundations of debt at overdraft, but instead is

:14:45. > :14:50.built on investment and secure and decently paid jobs. Rising debt is

:14:51. > :14:53.symptomatic of a wider problem in our economy. Reflected and growth

:14:54. > :14:58.levels and in rising levels of inequality. We need an economy that

:14:59. > :15:04.works for the many and not just for the few, and the banking sector that

:15:05. > :15:10.does the same. Last year, the FA Vase markets authority published a

:15:11. > :15:16.review which disappointingly fell fell short of introducing a cap.

:15:17. > :15:21.Instead, the Port said that banks would be required to set their own

:15:22. > :15:25.ceilings on charges in the form of a monthly maximum charge. However,

:15:26. > :15:31.most banks already have that. It might be 5p per day are 90p per

:15:32. > :15:36.month. The problem is that we need a lower cap set by directly letters

:15:37. > :15:41.are not individually by the banks. They monthly maximum as proposed by

:15:42. > :15:47.the authority will do absolutely nothing to stop the deepening of the

:15:48. > :15:54.persons debt crisis. Banks should not punish people with

:15:55. > :15:58.disproportionate charges. Competition in this sector of the

:15:59. > :16:01.years has got weaker still with the years has got weaker still with the

:16:02. > :16:06.merger of our many high street banks. The recent travels of the

:16:07. > :16:14.Co-op bank, which is lower charges than many good entries problems.

:16:15. > :16:19.Every overdraft users are the least like despite bank account. Given the

:16:20. > :16:24.there is little incentive for them there is little incentive for them

:16:25. > :16:29.want to deny the banks of the right want to deny the banks of the right

:16:30. > :16:30.to charge for their services, but there should be fairness and

:16:31. > :16:43.proportionality. In fact, the impact opposite is the

:16:44. > :16:47.case. Most of us, Mr Speaker, regard banks as more reputable and fathom

:16:48. > :16:53.payday lenders, so it is a bitter irony, a better deal for this... To

:16:54. > :16:56.go to a payday lender then their high street bank. Banks need to

:16:57. > :17:01.improve their behaviour, and I urge them to step in and their customers.

:17:02. > :17:06.. After this year may passion the buck to the authority, the FCA as

:17:07. > :17:12.may be welcome decision to include this issue in its welcome review

:17:13. > :17:18.into high cost credit which will report later this year. But neither

:17:19. > :17:22.take action, the FCA would benefit from a mandate from Parliament, so I

:17:23. > :17:26.urge them to support this bill and make the changes a reality to help

:17:27. > :17:31.the customers being ripped off by their banks. This cannot continue.

:17:32. > :17:37.The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the

:17:38. > :17:40.Bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:17:41. > :17:52.think temp macro one has it. Stephen Hammond, Sir David Amis, and

:17:53. > :18:36.George Carrigan and myself. Unauthorised Overdrafts (Cost of

:18:37. > :18:42.Credit). Friday the 12th of May. Thank you. Order, the clerk will now

:18:43. > :19:02.proceed to read the orders of the day. Finance (No. 2) Bill. Order.

:19:03. > :19:13.Order Finance (No. 2) Bill. We begin with... Relating to more than one

:19:14. > :19:18.tax with the question that clause one standard part of the Bill with

:19:19. > :19:21.which it will be convenient to consider the causes, schedules and

:19:22. > :19:29.amendments listed on the selection paper. Thank you very much, Mr

:19:30. > :19:33.Chairman. I will speak briefly to this first group in today as we have

:19:34. > :19:38.a lot to get through this afternoon. Obviously I will attempt to address

:19:39. > :19:43.any points during the debate. I should start by noting the changes

:19:44. > :19:48.to the Bill members will have observed. The Finance Bill is

:19:49. > :19:51.proceeding on the basis of consensus and the request of the opposition,

:19:52. > :19:56.we are not proceeding with a number of causes in this bill as we know

:19:57. > :20:03.with policy change, this could make a contribution to the public

:20:04. > :20:07.finances and the Government will... I should note the Government remains

:20:08. > :20:11.committed to the digital future of the tax system, Prince poll widely

:20:12. > :20:19.accepted across the House. The Government recognises the need for

:20:20. > :20:24.proper measures as... Why the Government has pursued this measure

:20:25. > :20:29.in the next parliament in light on the pressures of time it is now

:20:30. > :20:34.applied. Mr Chairman, clauses one and three provide for the annual

:20:35. > :20:36.charging of income tax in the current financial year and maintain

:20:37. > :20:42.the basic higher and additional rates at the current level. The

:20:43. > :20:46.annual charge legislated for in the Finance Bill is essential for its

:20:47. > :20:50.continued collection and well enabled the funding of vital public

:20:51. > :20:54.services in the coming year. Painting in the rates including the

:20:55. > :20:59.tax-free personal allowance and the point where people pay the higher

:21:00. > :21:04.rate of tax means we are showing important manifesto commitments.

:21:05. > :21:15.This year, increases to the personal allowances will put a basic rate

:21:16. > :21:19.income tax bill by over ?1000. Class four maintains a starting rate limit

:21:20. > :21:24.for savings and can apply to the savings of those with lower earnings

:21:25. > :21:32.at its current level of ?5,000, tenth 2017 tax year. Clauses are 17

:21:33. > :21:38.and 18 both make changes to the taxation of pensions with 18

:21:39. > :21:42.legislating for a significant measure announced at the spring

:21:43. > :21:47.budget, it makes changes to ensure pension transfers to recognise a

:21:48. > :21:53.busy pension schemes after the 9th of March 2017 will be taxable, the

:21:54. > :21:58.charge will not apply if both the individual and the pension savings

:21:59. > :22:01.are in the same country both within the European economic area are the

:22:02. > :22:05.scheme is provided by the individual's employer. Before the

:22:06. > :22:14.changes were announced in the spring budget, someone retiring abroad but

:22:15. > :22:17.not face a charge to anywhere in the world providing it met certain

:22:18. > :22:25.requirements. Oversee pension transfers have become incredibly

:22:26. > :22:29.marketed in way of gaining unfair tax advantaged an pension savings.

:22:30. > :22:36.This is contrary to the policy rationale for allowing transfer

:22:37. > :22:43.of... Discharge deters those seeking to gain tax advantages by

:22:44. > :22:54.transferring the pensions abroad, stopping those genuinely needing to

:22:55. > :23:01.transfer being able to do so. To make a more consistent taxation of

:23:02. > :23:04.domestic pensions. Plus 21, simplifies the payment of

:23:05. > :23:06.distributions by some type of investment fund with the

:23:07. > :23:14.introduction of the personal saving allowance of 98% of... In line with

:23:15. > :23:20.this, the clause removes requirement to deduct tax at source, which then

:23:21. > :23:27.later needs to be re-claimed by the saver. Turning to clauses 45 to 47,

:23:28. > :23:31.the final ones in this grouping, these provide for the removal of the

:23:32. > :23:36.tax advantages of the employee shareholder status for arrangements

:23:37. > :23:40.entered in after the 1st of December 20 16. This is in response to

:23:41. > :23:44.evidence suggesting the status was not used as intended by companies

:23:45. > :23:51.and was not delivering value for money. This status was introduced to

:23:52. > :23:56.give workplace flexible D2 creates a new class of employee as members

:23:57. > :24:00.might aware, but it has come apparent the status was used as a

:24:01. > :24:04.tax planning device rather than for the intended purpose of helping

:24:05. > :24:08.businesses to recruit. Evidence shows companies, particularly when

:24:09. > :24:13.by private equity funds, we using shareholder status as the tax

:24:14. > :24:22.efficient ways of rewarding hires stuff. -- hire staff. This continued

:24:23. > :24:28.to be the case despite the introduction of the lifetime limit

:24:29. > :24:34.on capital gains tax. The Government therefore announced in the Autumn

:24:35. > :24:39.Statement 2016 that it would remove the tax relief associated with the

:24:40. > :24:42.to new arrangements at the next to new arrangements at the next

:24:43. > :24:47.legislative opportunity. The action we are taking in this Finance Bill

:24:48. > :24:54.tackles abuse and the fairness of the tax system. I therefore move

:24:55. > :25:02.that these clauses and associates schedules stand part of the Bill.

:25:03. > :25:13.Thank you, Mr chav. I would like to thank the Minister for the which I

:25:14. > :25:16.fully concur with. For some weeks, my colleagues and everybody have

:25:17. > :25:22.been preparing for this. With a view to having a number of public bill

:25:23. > :25:26.committee sessions spanning over a number of weeks to properly

:25:27. > :25:32.scrutinise the Finance Bill. This has been the context of my comments.

:25:33. > :25:36.The Prime Minister's announcement at number ten and the subscribed vote

:25:37. > :25:43.backs succeeded means we do not have since sufficient time to give the

:25:44. > :25:46.full bill the time it deserves and ensure many members will appreciate

:25:47. > :25:51.that. It is clear that the pressure without we're under with the snap

:25:52. > :25:56.election, otherwise they would not introduce the longest Finance Bill.

:25:57. > :25:59.That being said, the opposition recognises the scenario wherein

:26:00. > :26:09.anti-government's was hostility to levy taxes. That is why we have

:26:10. > :26:14.acted in good faith to ensure an version of the Bill can be passed

:26:15. > :26:18.before Parliament is dissolved. On our approach to the pre-election

:26:19. > :26:23.process and the presentation of the condensed version. The question of

:26:24. > :26:29.fiscal responsibility and balanced against Parliamentary scrutiny is an

:26:30. > :26:33.issue. There is a responsibility to ensure taxpayers there is little

:26:34. > :26:37.disruption as possible and we will not attempt to block anything in

:26:38. > :26:42.this bill. There have been levy is to allow business as usual for

:26:43. > :26:49.companies. Nor will we obstruct tax in the process of collection. But we

:26:50. > :26:56.cannot give in the Government a white card on this, we have made

:26:57. > :26:59.that clear. There are things that should wait until after the general

:27:00. > :27:06.election to allow them to be properly scrutinised. One example is

:27:07. > :27:14.the soft drinks levy. The Finance Bill before Rose shows what has read

:27:15. > :27:23.being implemented. This is includes the decision to raise alcohol duty

:27:24. > :27:29.in line of inflation. As I said in my speech at the second reading,

:27:30. > :27:33.writing business rates and inflation is putting a perfect storm for small

:27:34. > :27:38.businesses, and therefore the decision to rise this duty is

:27:39. > :27:42.something of a risk. In relation to insurance premium tax, another

:27:43. > :27:48.measure we would like to avoid, but is included, that this bill is going

:27:49. > :27:55.through is the rise. It has already been doubled and the... If there was

:27:56. > :27:59.a longer process, we would have sought to challenge this, so there

:28:00. > :28:04.is no surprise in that one. The measure is already in effect due to

:28:05. > :28:10.the resolutions. With tax avoidance, it is time for a wholesale shift in

:28:11. > :28:13.how we approach this given the economy in recent years. It

:28:14. > :28:24.initially contained initiatives and we will come back to these in due

:28:25. > :28:30.course. Mr chair, utilisation of tax, we will come back to

:28:31. > :28:39.digitisation of tax. It will come as a sigh of relief to many small

:28:40. > :28:43.businesses. No one is against the digitalisation of the tax system,

:28:44. > :28:49.but we do not agree with the rush to implement it. In relation to the

:28:50. > :28:53.soft drinks levy, a large portion of this has been consulted on heavily

:28:54. > :29:01.in Government with cross-party support. The soft drinks levy

:29:02. > :29:06.industry is popular with the public and a poll indicated it did have

:29:07. > :29:10.huge amounts of support. I want to take the opportunity to pay tribute

:29:11. > :29:17.to Jamie Oliver and the obesity Alliance who has campaigned on this

:29:18. > :29:22.and in obesity strategy. I must compliment the Minister in her

:29:23. > :29:28.current and previous roles as a strong advocate of this. We would

:29:29. > :29:32.like to see, if possible, a review of that particular sugar tax levy in

:29:33. > :29:36.due course, I'm sure the Minister may wish to comment on that. I'm

:29:37. > :29:41.sure there will be a whole range of issues in terms of multi-byte

:29:42. > :29:44.discounts on unhealthy foods. That could be part of that. In

:29:45. > :29:49.conclusion, as a responsible opposition. We will not stand in the

:29:50. > :29:54.way of passing this before the election, there are some measures

:29:55. > :29:57.that a Labour Government would bring back and we will have the

:29:58. > :30:02.opportunity to scrutinise those in due course. As far as we are

:30:03. > :30:05.concerned, we need to get this through, we need to be responsible

:30:06. > :30:12.and we will support the Government web that responsibility is

:30:13. > :30:18.required,. Could I say to the House, I'm going to bring in the member of

:30:19. > :30:31.Copland. Can we remember courtesies. We do not intervene on the main

:30:32. > :30:35.speech. Trudy Harrison. Thank you, Mr Hoyle, for the opportunity to

:30:36. > :30:40.deliver my maiden speech as the newly elected member of Parliament

:30:41. > :30:46.for Copland. This may be one of the last debates of this Parliament. I

:30:47. > :30:50.would like to pay tribute to my predecessor Jamie Reid who was the

:30:51. > :30:57.member for Copland from 2005 until he stood down in January this year.

:30:58. > :31:00.It is Jamie who I have two thanks for introducing me to politics. The

:31:01. > :31:05.very first Parliamentary debate I ever watched was a Westminster Hall

:31:06. > :31:11.debate called upon by Jamie and also attended by other Cumbrian members.

:31:12. > :31:17.My own rubble friends for Penrith and the Borders. This was to

:31:18. > :31:22.discover the future of my children's school.

:31:23. > :31:28.I saw the positive impact MPs could have in their local communities, and

:31:29. > :31:33.the powerful influence support could break even and at areas, which I had

:31:34. > :31:37.previously felt would never be anyone's political priority. Like

:31:38. > :31:45.me, Jamie was born, raised and educated in coupling. In the fine

:31:46. > :31:54.Georgian tanks and CROWD: Georgian town of Whitehaven. He worked hard

:31:55. > :31:58.for rural communities. He placed a strong emphasis on improving health

:31:59. > :32:01.and education. And announcing his decision to stand down last

:32:02. > :32:05.December, he said he could achieve more for our community by returning

:32:06. > :32:12.to work within the nuclear industry at Sellafield rather than remaining

:32:13. > :32:17.a Labour member of Parliament. Jamie was a relentless, proud supporter of

:32:18. > :32:19.our local and district. He championed the world-class

:32:20. > :32:25.specialists kills that major towns and villages. He worked hard to make

:32:26. > :32:29.the case for coupling to host a new nuclear power station adjacent to

:32:30. > :32:34.Sellafield. He it was based on the strong belief that our workforce is

:32:35. > :32:43.best placed to power the northern powerhouse. After all, Copeland

:32:44. > :32:51.welcomed the world's first nuclear reactor in 1950. A local knowledge

:32:52. > :32:57.within the nuclear industry is internationally recognised and

:32:58. > :33:00.respected. Sellafield's safety record is exceptional, and an

:33:01. > :33:05.example of outstanding performance across the globe. Jamie said,

:33:06. > :33:12.Copeland's this days are ahead. I agree with this statement and have

:33:13. > :33:16.courted it many times! I would like to take this opportunity to thank

:33:17. > :33:25.Jimmy for his commitment, and wish him all the best and his new role.

:33:26. > :33:31.Copeland has for centuries pioneered a modern industrial strategy. Our

:33:32. > :33:35.largest town, Whitehaven, was once Britain's largest trading port with

:33:36. > :33:40.an extraordinary shipbuilding reputation thanks to the locally

:33:41. > :33:45.grown oak trees used to build a boat. An ancestor sailed the world

:33:46. > :33:53.securing deals, returning with goods which created racial global trading

:33:54. > :33:57.centre. Perhaps that is why we voted to leave the EU with such a high

:33:58. > :34:00.majority, because Hatherley provides confidence in our ability to export

:34:01. > :34:07.our knowledge and products across the globe. Like Pioneers, B don't

:34:08. > :34:16.veins. As ship sales decline, we dug veins. As ship sales decline, we dug

:34:17. > :34:30.deeper prosperity. Mining transformed the towns in our area.

:34:31. > :34:41.We are perhaps best known in Cumbria for a delightful little rabbits.

:34:42. > :34:50.Peter Rabbit. And his friends. Two named just one of beauty spot of,

:34:51. > :34:55.adorable characters. Artists and poets have found inspiration in the

:34:56. > :34:58.beautiful Cumbrian countryside. Once both themselves were sent under

:34:59. > :35:07.doctor 's orders to my home village of little to aid his recovery from a

:35:08. > :35:15.chest infection. With 32 miles of coastline, Diana and our landscape

:35:16. > :35:18.is good for the soul. We are situated in the Lake District

:35:19. > :35:25.natural park boundary, which I really do hope will become the

:35:26. > :35:28.second world Heritage site of Copeland, complementing Hadrian 's

:35:29. > :35:34.Wall. We eagerly await a decision in July to confirm another world first,

:35:35. > :35:39.the first UNESCO world Heritage site to include an entire national park

:35:40. > :35:44.thanks to a 20 year project by the Lake District National Park

:35:45. > :35:47.authority and local communities pitting Cumbria and the same

:35:48. > :35:55.international platform as it Tasman international platform as it Tasman

:35:56. > :36:00.Halle and the Great Barrier Reef. Where I was brought up I would open

:36:01. > :36:05.Mike curtains in the morning to reveal Britain's best view of

:36:06. > :36:12.angling's highest mountain. Well before swimming was trendy, I would

:36:13. > :36:19.slam and England's deepest lake. It is easy to see why this was the last

:36:20. > :36:27.place of mountaineering, and by the local markets town enjoy such

:36:28. > :36:42.popularity with this festival. Whilst the... Our landscape and

:36:43. > :36:47.cultural heritage is of course man-made. It is vitally important to

:36:48. > :36:51.industry. Both are planned and industry. Both are planned and

:36:52. > :36:56.lowland to ensure we can all benefit from the quality food production,

:36:57. > :37:03.the highest standards of Anna from welfare, -- animal welfare on which

:37:04. > :37:06.Copeland is so dependent. I could not get my maiden speech without

:37:07. > :37:10.thanking and acknowledging that I would not be standing in this House

:37:11. > :37:18.today if it were not for the fantastic and unwavering support of

:37:19. > :37:24.my family, friends, Jean Unity. My husband, my parents, brother and

:37:25. > :37:33.daughters, Gabrielle, Savannah, Francisco and rosemary. They have

:37:34. > :37:38.been incredible towers of strength. From the moment I decided to stand,

:37:39. > :37:43.campaigning, delivering leaflets and campaigning, delivering leaflets and

:37:44. > :37:46.knocking on doors. My girls have become persuasive activist. It has

:37:47. > :37:54.become wonderful to see their interest in politics growing. Having

:37:55. > :38:02.for teenage daughters, I was also delighted to accept the balance of

:38:03. > :38:06.female MPs to 456. Equalling their balance between all of her sleep's

:38:07. > :38:12.well members and the current number of male members. Though there was a

:38:13. > :38:17.change of reference NI Mother's Day cards this year. Gone were the

:38:18. > :38:22.thanks for the practical tasks of washing, cooking and cleaning, and

:38:23. > :38:25.generally being there, each one instead revert to a theoretical

:38:26. > :38:30.role, referencing and relation and pride. That is what a by-election

:38:31. > :38:34.does to family life. You can only imagine their comments about another

:38:35. > :38:43.round of doorstep challenges! LAUGHTER

:38:44. > :38:47.It is, after all, our children and young people that now in securing a

:38:48. > :38:52.bright future for Britain and inspiring the next generation's

:38:53. > :38:54.leaders. I was Theresa May's speech at the Conservative conference last

:38:55. > :38:57.year, and the Conservative conference last year, and was so

:38:58. > :38:59.commitment to deliver for Great commitment to deliver for Great

:39:00. > :39:06.Britain, and impressions for our country resonated with my own. I

:39:07. > :39:10.said to myself, that is me, that is what I want for my community. I

:39:11. > :39:14.stood because I want to get on and stood because I want to get on and

:39:15. > :39:19.make things happen. I want to be part of a proactive, positive team

:39:20. > :39:28.that makes tremendous difference to my community, the land of Copeland

:39:29. > :39:36.glory. My husband and I moved from Whitehaven to belittle, a small

:39:37. > :39:46.village in the south to raise and young family. We wanted our girls to

:39:47. > :39:50.attend a small primary, and we found a perfect one. In 2000 insects, I

:39:51. > :39:58.discovered their skill was really struggling to make ends meet. It

:39:59. > :40:11.desperately needed extra funding. . The problem was I declining numbers.

:40:12. > :40:19.I realise the whole town was declining. I realise the challenge

:40:20. > :40:25.was far more extensive. Copeland desperately requires investment, an

:40:26. > :40:29.infrastructure to be able to thrive. Both professionally, working for the

:40:30. > :40:39.Council, and personally, working with the community, I want to ship

:40:40. > :40:46.policy, and help our community become the key to our future. We

:40:47. > :40:50.want to ship the strategic vision from Bootle. It will become the

:40:51. > :40:55.beacon of hope for other Ronald Koeman it is. We worked hard to

:40:56. > :41:04.secure the Lake District National Park application. Well bank will

:41:05. > :41:09.bring 50 homes, ever tell, enterprise areas, and will attract

:41:10. > :41:15.public and private investment. In total, for Bootle, that'll mean an

:41:16. > :41:17.extra 61 homes, new businesses, and when complete, ?29 of and when

:41:18. > :41:25.complete, ?29 of annual investment. I stood in the Copeland by election

:41:26. > :41:31.to make a success of the new strategy, to be an asset to the

:41:32. > :41:34.northern powerhouse, and to realise our potential to be a global

:41:35. > :41:37.exporter of knowledge and products. But Copeland needs investment. I

:41:38. > :41:40.know that as a pioneering, know that as a pioneering,

:41:41. > :41:46.hard-working, and a bit of hard-working, and a bit of

:41:47. > :41:51.community, we can succeeds with Government support. We have the

:41:52. > :41:57.potential, the natural resources, and the landscape were people love

:41:58. > :42:01.to love, love, and invest. We have every reason to be optimistic we

:42:02. > :42:03.will be an asset to the country. Copeland 's is on the brink of

:42:04. > :42:11.most exciting, game changing most exciting, game changing

:42:12. > :42:18.transition. But we need investment to kick-start it. I campaigned on

:42:19. > :42:28.sex vital points. -- seeks vital points. I wanted to make a success

:42:29. > :42:38.of Brexit. I wanted secure new building to attract international

:42:39. > :42:46.investment. Our Government must commit two new nuclear. An

:42:47. > :42:53.infrastructure is holding back our ability to diversify and thigh.

:42:54. > :42:59.Building resilience against poverty, which wrecks lives and livelihoods

:43:00. > :43:06.is also essential. Access is a key enabler, particular NI rule area. If

:43:07. > :43:10.you really are to compete in a global marketplace. Including mobile

:43:11. > :43:15.and connectivity will make a huge difference to our ability to do

:43:16. > :43:20.business on a global market and to ensure a bright future for our young

:43:21. > :43:22.people. The announcement and the spring budget supporting an enormous

:43:23. > :43:30.increase in technical apprenticeships is wonderful news.

:43:31. > :43:38.To secure services, west, in hospital and Whitehaven, ensuring

:43:39. > :43:39.that we keep our 24-hour, seven day a week, consultant led maternity has

:43:40. > :43:43.been one of my aims to write my been one of my aims to write my

:43:44. > :43:48.election campaign and as a member of Parliament. I was born at that

:43:49. > :43:52.hospital, and all for my daughters were too. My community has

:43:53. > :44:00.demonstrated very clearly the importance of maintaining such an

:44:01. > :44:03.essential service. I have been able to meet with the Secretary of State

:44:04. > :44:10.for Health and have visited the hospital to seek new wards, and to

:44:11. > :44:12.meet the staff to understand the barriers are having a fully

:44:13. > :44:19.operational departments in the future. We now have a fully staffed

:44:20. > :44:23.maternity departments. The trust has been removed from special measures,

:44:24. > :44:29.already invested by this Government, already invested by this Government,

:44:30. > :44:38.we have the funding secured for the final phase of the hospital's

:44:39. > :44:42.construction. Supporting a for the recruitment drive is my priority.

:44:43. > :44:45.Positive action, listening to concerns, tackle problems head-on,

:44:46. > :44:52.working with our community who really care as for many years been

:44:53. > :44:55.my mantra. I will continue to strive enthusiastically forward because I

:44:56. > :45:00.believe passionately in Copeland. Its people and its potential.

:45:01. > :45:05.Tanning to today's debate on the Finance Bill, I have seen that this

:45:06. > :45:12.Government as they only Government that can deliver a stronger, more

:45:13. > :45:17.secure economy. The economy is indeed getting stronger, and

:45:18. > :45:21.growing. Employment rates are at record highs and the deficit has

:45:22. > :45:28.been reduced in honestly sends its brief financial crisis peaked. We

:45:29. > :45:31.are in a much stronger position than 2010, but I recognise that you must

:45:32. > :45:37.not become complacent, we must continue to reduce the country's

:45:38. > :45:42.debt and the deficit even farther. We cannot, as previous Labour

:45:43. > :45:47.governments have done, borrow endlessly to sell holes. We need to

:45:48. > :45:51.get the public finances in good order to safeguard our future, the

:45:52. > :45:56.future I want from my daughters and their generation. Finally, Copeland

:45:57. > :46:02.has been my home since I was born. It is an area I know and love. The

:46:03. > :46:07.opportunity to represent the community is I grew up in as a

:46:08. > :46:13.member of Parliament is truly a great honour, and I will ensure that

:46:14. > :46:19.our towns and rural communities voice is heard loud and clear. I'm

:46:20. > :46:27.utterly committed to fighting hard to deliver on promises made to my

:46:28. > :46:30.constituent during the election. I am extremely grateful for the time

:46:31. > :46:31.you have allowed and for the opportunity to deliver my maiden

:46:32. > :46:44.speech in this debate. Can I just say to the parable lady,

:46:45. > :46:51.can I offer for her to join the rugby league group? Thank you very

:46:52. > :46:59.much Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I take the opportunity warmly welcome the

:47:00. > :47:02.new member of Copland. I am particularly pleased we have finally

:47:03. > :47:09.broken that Barry of the number of women being elected, I am delighted

:47:10. > :47:14.that has happened. As a child, I holidayed in her constituency and

:47:15. > :47:17.visited where Beatrix Potter crated the animals and the Museum and I

:47:18. > :47:22.remember it very fondly and I'm can see the passion she can speak with

:47:23. > :47:29.her constituency and the man she cares about the area, truly local

:47:30. > :47:34.MP, so a huge welcome to the House, who knows if we will see you act...

:47:35. > :47:41.Who knows if we will be back in June! In terms of turning back to

:47:42. > :47:48.the first grouping we have today, specifically around income tax and

:47:49. > :47:57.more generally, on the way this bill is progressing in Parliament.

:47:58. > :48:00.Obviously with the surprise announcement of a general election,

:48:01. > :48:07.this Finance (No. 2) Bill 's far different from what it was to look

:48:08. > :48:14.before it was brought to the House. I am sure the ministers are in a

:48:15. > :48:23.similar position, we only received provisional notification last night

:48:24. > :48:27.to changes, so there is not going to be the level of scrutiny over some

:48:28. > :48:31.of the things, but there will also be a slight level of confusion in

:48:32. > :48:35.the proceedings today given the fact that have been so many things

:48:36. > :48:43.withdrawn. I wanted to to welcome the Government withdrawing the

:48:44. > :48:47.dividend tax rate threshold change. That is something we argued against

:48:48. > :48:50.in second reading and something we have spoken about and how later to

:48:51. > :48:54.the Government and I am pleased they have chosen to do that today given

:48:55. > :48:59.that was a particularly contentious part of what was put forward. A

:49:00. > :49:04.couple of more general things around income tax and the changes, I said

:49:05. > :49:08.previously, and I am quite happy to state again, I appreciate the

:49:09. > :49:12.increases the Government has made to personal allowance and the increases

:49:13. > :49:18.to the minimum wage. I have said before, and I will say again, I do

:49:19. > :49:22.not think these go far enough, we do not have... We have a national

:49:23. > :49:29.living wage, but there is no calculation on whether people can

:49:30. > :49:32.live on this. Thank you very much for the points. The national living

:49:33. > :49:37.wage is not actually a real living wage, it is... It is not go far

:49:38. > :49:42.enough and is only available for people over the age of 25. I agree

:49:43. > :49:47.with my colleague in Glasgow on that. I think it is a problem that

:49:48. > :49:51.this increase on the minimum wage is not applied to under 25 's. It's

:49:52. > :49:56.because you are under 25 does not mean you are doing less of a job

:49:57. > :50:01.then anyone who is over 25 and they should be just as applicable to get

:50:02. > :50:08.the minimum wage as those who are older. The only issue is with the

:50:09. > :50:16.tax credit changes more than balance out the amount of people I

:50:17. > :50:20.getting... People are at the bottom getting... People are at the bottom

:50:21. > :50:29.of the pile and worse off due to this. I think despite the fact the

:50:30. > :50:35.Government can't stand to talk about the facts about how great this is,

:50:36. > :50:39.how great this is, and when people are working our worse off as a

:50:40. > :50:45.result of tax credit changes. One more general thing around taxation,

:50:46. > :50:50.the Government has made a view suggestions and some have been

:50:51. > :50:56.withdrawn and some not, around the taxation of self-employment. The

:50:57. > :50:59.Government is intending to try and equalise employment and

:51:00. > :51:02.self-employment and the taxation levels that people face in those two

:51:03. > :51:06.situations. However the thing that is missing from this is people who

:51:07. > :51:11.are in self implement to not get the same benefits as those in

:51:12. > :51:16.deployment. No maternity leave, holiday entitlement to lament, they

:51:17. > :51:20.do not get those things. I will argue that if the Government is

:51:21. > :51:25.making changes to self-employment, it needs to do so in the ground. It

:51:26. > :51:30.needs to stop tinkering and look at the whole situation, it needs to do

:51:31. > :51:35.a proper review and it needs to come back with the results of the review

:51:36. > :51:44.and consult on any changes to make, rather than... For example, changes

:51:45. > :51:49.with little pre-consultation being with little pre-consultation being

:51:50. > :51:52.done, it needs to properly consult how taxation should look for

:51:53. > :52:00.individuals whether they are employed or self-employed. I am not

:52:01. > :52:07.sure that the terror review goes far enough. I would like to see the

:52:08. > :52:10.Taylor review take into account self-employment in the round and

:52:11. > :52:16.take in all of the factors that says those who are self-employed. We need

:52:17. > :52:19.to remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, the changes that have been in the self

:52:20. > :52:24.employed landscape in recent years. We have seen an increase in women

:52:25. > :52:27.unemployed, we have seen a massive increase in older people who are in

:52:28. > :52:32.self-employment and I think the changes the Government are making

:52:33. > :52:35.does not take in to account changes in the landscape. I would like to

:52:36. > :52:41.see this as a whole thing rather than a tinkering thing. In terms of

:52:42. > :52:45.this grouping, Mr Deputy Speaker, that was pretty much all I had to

:52:46. > :52:53.say, Pat to welcome the withdrawal of the dividend tax threshold

:52:54. > :52:59.changes. Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I also congratulate the Honourable

:53:00. > :53:03.member for probe on a fine maiden speech and thank her for her

:53:04. > :53:09.well-deserved condiments to her predecessor and the said as he did.

:53:10. > :53:12.She spoke with passion and understanding of her beautiful

:53:13. > :53:17.constituency, as well as Peter Rabbit. I don't think any of us here

:53:18. > :53:21.will envy her, this speedy transition from by-election to

:53:22. > :53:25.general election. I congratulate her. I made my own maiden speech to

:53:26. > :53:31.this house on the remaining stages of the 1987 Finance Bill, so there

:53:32. > :53:37.is a certain symmetry in my making my last remarks on this one. On the

:53:38. > :53:45.substance of the Bill, it is too often overlooked, this was talking

:53:46. > :53:49.about a bouncing public spending, but whilst it is often talked about

:53:50. > :53:56.balancing the budget, the last Government to do so was Labour in

:53:57. > :54:01.2001, 2000 two. Right now it makes sense to invest more in

:54:02. > :54:06.infrastructure, training and public services with action to come back

:54:07. > :54:13.poverty and secure Brexit determines which enable our country to grow and

:54:14. > :54:18.our country to flourish. I wish we had a Finance Bill the social

:54:19. > :54:24.justice, standing up for the many, not the few. And that is what we

:54:25. > :54:32.need a Labour Government for. It has been a privilege to be an MP in and

:54:33. > :54:37.out of Government, and I thank the staff of the House, the library,

:54:38. > :54:46.those whose keep hope us safe, and I'm grateful to all colleagues and

:54:47. > :54:51.wish them well for the future. A huge thank you to all who have

:54:52. > :54:56.helped me surfer 30 years for the wonderful constituency of Oxford

:54:57. > :55:03.East, my family and friends, my neighbours, our party members and

:55:04. > :55:07.supporters, my trade union members, my office staff and party organisers

:55:08. > :55:16.across the years. Most of all, my constituents. Thank you. Can I wish

:55:17. > :55:22.you well. Can I also thank the members for Copeland for such a

:55:23. > :55:26.passionate and entertaining speech. It is good to have a representative

:55:27. > :55:32.of the land of Beatrix Potter here in this chamber. I will be slightly

:55:33. > :55:38.wicked and say I listened very carefully to her last point about

:55:39. > :55:42.the Government and the deficit and that the Government was bringing the

:55:43. > :55:46.deficit down. I'm sure she knows that there is a forecast in rise in

:55:47. > :55:51.Government bothering this financial year and she may wish to ask why.

:55:52. > :55:58.One question for the Minister in this grouping of questions, in the

:55:59. > :56:02.minister's introduction, she notably failed white clause five has been

:56:03. > :56:07.withdrawn. This is the clause referring to the proposed reduction

:56:08. > :56:11.in dividend income that that investors in sparking bunnies can

:56:12. > :56:23.take. If the Government in Paris to buy that caused and is that why it

:56:24. > :56:24.is being withdrawn? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:56:25. > :56:48.contrary, "no". The ayes habit. As many as are of the opinion, say

:56:49. > :56:55."aye". To the contrary, "no".. The question is that clause six stand

:56:56. > :57:04.part of the Bill. Act stop the ayes habit. We now come to group to

:57:05. > :57:13.taxation and income tax avoidance and tax evasion. Minister to move.

:57:14. > :57:18.Thank you. Perhaps before I say something about the group to, if I

:57:19. > :57:23.could comment on both the maiden speech and the retirement speech. It

:57:24. > :57:31.was a real honour to be here in the chamber for the Honourable MP for

:57:32. > :57:36.Copeland's speech. She reminded many of us on this side of the chamber

:57:37. > :57:41.has she inspired us to make the journey up to her constituency in

:57:42. > :57:47.that we were supposing a fantastic woman with a passion of her

:57:48. > :57:53.community. I had many friendly dealings with Jamie Reid and I was

:57:54. > :57:56.in the Department of Health, so I welcome her comments. Vista

:57:57. > :58:02.Chairman, it was a wonderful maiden speech and I look forward to many

:58:03. > :58:06.from her in the future. I wish her and her rather long-suffering family

:58:07. > :58:11.for the weeks ahead. She spoke with conviction about the contribution of

:58:12. > :58:17.nuclear power, but I rather think in the forthcoming campaign it will be

:58:18. > :58:20.girl power to the fore. To the Honourable member of Oxford East, it

:58:21. > :58:28.is nice to hear members reflect upon their time in this house and the way

:58:29. > :58:32.they have served, and as he noted, a nice book ending with a Finance Bill

:58:33. > :58:37.debate and a final contribution on Treasury matters and, of course, he

:58:38. > :58:42.paid tribute to his constituents. I'm sure in these circumstances, one

:58:43. > :58:46.has less time than once thought to do a round of goodbyes, but I am

:58:47. > :58:51.sure he will be continuing to be active in his community, and I

:58:52. > :58:59.congratulate him on his speech and thank him on perhaps of the House.

:59:00. > :59:06.Let me turn to group two, taxation of employment income and clause on

:59:07. > :59:09.income tax and evasion. I know there are a number of clauses and

:59:10. > :59:12.schedules in this group including a new clause from the Honourable

:59:13. > :59:18.member for Aberdeen North. I'm going to focus on clause seven and a

:59:19. > :59:22.schedule which refers to workers and services provided to the full

:59:23. > :59:26.service to intermediaries which might be of interest to members, but

:59:27. > :59:36.I will address other areas in the course of the debate. Clause seven

:59:37. > :59:40.and schedule one show of payment... Individuals working in the public

:59:41. > :59:45.sector. The tax system needs to keep pace with the different ways in

:59:46. > :59:49.which people are working. As the Chancellor set out in the Autumn

:59:50. > :00:01.Statement, the public 's finances face a risk. The Government

:00:02. > :00:03.estimates in 2021, 22, the people wanting to work through company will

:00:04. > :00:08.be through six billion pounds. This goes through people working through

:00:09. > :00:14.their own personal service company, if it were not for that company,

:00:15. > :00:21.they would not be cost as employees. There is a design that individuals

:00:22. > :00:25.work in a similar way to employees, they hate broadly the same taxes as

:00:26. > :00:32.employees. However, noncompliance with these rules is currently

:00:33. > :00:39.widespread, H MRC estimates 10% who should operate these do so. But a

:00:40. > :00:44.?100 million is lost every across the economy around 20% relates to

:00:45. > :00:49.noncompliance in the public sector. This is neither sustainable nor

:00:50. > :00:54.further. We think there was a responsibility to taxpayers that

:00:55. > :00:57.people working for them are paying the right amount of tax. It is

:00:58. > :01:02.therefore right that individuals doing the same job should be taxed

:01:03. > :01:03.in a similar way regardless of whether or not they are working to a

:01:04. > :01:12.company. The changes being made addresses

:01:13. > :01:16.They may have responsibility for They may have responsibility for

:01:17. > :01:20.determine whether or not the payroll working rules applies to the public

:01:21. > :01:24.authority is the individual is working for from the sex of April

:01:25. > :01:29.2017, they also make the public authority agency or other third

:01:30. > :01:35.responsible for operating PAYE on responsible for operating PAYE on

:01:36. > :01:41.those payments. This will improve compliance with the rules. It is

:01:42. > :01:48.also important to note that the reform does not introduce a new tax

:01:49. > :01:49.liability nor does it affect it generally self-employed. It will

:01:50. > :01:55.simply ensure the current rules are simply ensure the current rules are

:01:56. > :01:58.implied as intended. If clarity is needed, each MRC have watched

:01:59. > :02:06.extensively through stakeholders to develop the new digital check

:02:07. > :02:09.service which people can use to help implement the changes. That has been

:02:10. > :02:15.licensed last month and used many thousands of times. To assess people

:02:16. > :02:24.and looking at how to apply those rules. On that note, I've had people

:02:25. > :02:26.mentioned to me that no matter what information they pretend, it has

:02:27. > :02:31.always told them that they have got to pay a higher level of tax than

:02:32. > :02:36.the previously expecting to. I had concerns with the meat about that

:02:37. > :02:41.tool and the shortcomings with that and the fact that HMRC is always

:02:42. > :02:49.asking them to pay too high level of tax. I think the best thing ability

:02:50. > :02:55.can do is to send of that through immediately and before disillusion

:02:56. > :02:58.in order that HMRC can look at the factual issues. I'd be surprised,

:02:59. > :03:06.but let as asked them to look at the but let as asked them to look at the

:03:07. > :03:10.practical issues she raises and perhaps why we're off or doing other

:03:11. > :03:13.things that is something they can look at FC supplies the information

:03:14. > :03:17.in the next few days. They have worked with the Cabinet Office to

:03:18. > :03:20.produce guidance for public produce guidance for public

:03:21. > :03:28.authorities and have supported them to implement the changes. There is

:03:29. > :03:34.an amendment the Government has laid, and that is a technical

:03:35. > :03:38.amendment to ensure the reform only applies to the public sector, as set

:03:39. > :03:45.out in the initial announcement. The Government believes it is essential

:03:46. > :03:54.to ensure that those in receipt academic correct amount of tax and

:03:55. > :04:05.that these titles raise as a sandal amount of ready by forcing that

:04:06. > :04:19.compliance by 2122. I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the

:04:20. > :04:24.bell. Thank you very much. I would like to talk about the issues raised

:04:25. > :04:33.in gripping to a new clause one. Starting off with a IR 35 Ashes that

:04:34. > :04:37.the Minister has covered in some detail. We still have real concerns

:04:38. > :04:43.about the changes. Just the other day, somebody said to me that they

:04:44. > :04:47.will no longer bad for public sector contracts on the basis of the

:04:48. > :04:51.changes made and an IR 35. I think that is a real concern, and it is

:04:52. > :04:59.something we have raised before particularly in the context of rural

:05:00. > :05:04.communities. People like teachers, nurses, unemployed through

:05:05. > :05:09.intermediaries to very good reasons, it is sometimes difficult to get

:05:10. > :05:15.people to come to rural communities. We are in concerned this is going to

:05:16. > :05:19.have a real disadvantage particular for rural communities who rely on

:05:20. > :05:24.teachers and doctors and individuals working in the public sector who are

:05:25. > :05:28.understand that this is having an understand that this is having an

:05:29. > :05:33.impact of ready, but it would be very interesting for the Government,

:05:34. > :05:36.and would appreciate it, if they would come back and letters know

:05:37. > :05:40.what differences has made is not just to the Government's tax take

:05:41. > :05:50.but what differences has made to our community is and what impact this

:05:51. > :05:55.has had. Having read the documents, the document about the changes, I

:05:56. > :06:01.don't think they recognise the impact that this could have on

:06:02. > :06:04.interesting to see that going interesting to see that going

:06:05. > :06:08.forward, this has a ready been implemented, the change has already

:06:09. > :06:12.been made, so we are already working within this, so I would imagine

:06:13. > :06:20.would be able to see the outcomes within six months. Around tax

:06:21. > :06:26.avoidance, and a new clause in relation to it, this is something

:06:27. > :06:29.that the SNP has spoken about at length in this Parliament and will

:06:30. > :06:36.continue to speak about at length. Tax avoidance is something that is a

:06:37. > :06:44.real concern, and it contributes to the Government's tax gap. There is a

:06:45. > :06:47.gap of ?36 billion. There was a report in 2014 that suggests this is

:06:48. > :06:53.something larger companies like the United Kingdom struggle with. Trying

:06:54. > :07:04.to get people to not avoid tax. Small countries are much better at

:07:05. > :07:12.this. Just pointing that out. Best news -- we asked the Chancellor of

:07:13. > :07:16.the executive in two months review best practices and listen to

:07:17. > :07:21.combating tax evasion and bring forward a report on this review. We

:07:22. > :07:26.are asking this because we don't think that the United Kingdom is the

:07:27. > :07:29.best place in the world at tackling tax avoidance, we certainly don't

:07:30. > :07:33.think it is the best that all of the different ways of tackling tax

:07:34. > :07:36.avoidance, and there is a huge amount we can learn from different

:07:37. > :07:41.countries about what they are doing. I think this would be a really

:07:42. > :07:48.sensible way forward and I hope the Government would be keen to accept

:07:49. > :07:53.this new clause. The other thing... Just around tax avoidance, something

:07:54. > :08:00.else we mentioned is about the protection of whistle-blowers. They

:08:01. > :08:06.tend to have very pure health, are tend towards very poor health

:08:07. > :08:06.because of whistle-blowing. It is really important people are

:08:07. > :08:10.encouraged to come forward if they encouraged to come forward if they

:08:11. > :08:13.easy as possible for them to come easy as possible for them to come

:08:14. > :08:19.forward, because we need them to come forward and tell as the

:08:20. > :08:23.practice is going wrong, and were tax dodging is happening. We would

:08:24. > :08:27.support the Government in any mood at with make to encourage

:08:28. > :08:34.whistle-blowers and to allow them a better environment in which to come

:08:35. > :08:41.forward. Lastly, around Brexit, and around the possibility of the United

:08:42. > :08:47.Kingdom becoming a tax haven. We would absolutely reject the notion

:08:48. > :08:51.that the United Kingdom after Brexit should just reduce taxes to nearly

:08:52. > :08:58.nothing. That does not work if you want to have public services like

:08:59. > :09:05.the NHS. It simply... I'm hoping everyone here is supportive of the

:09:06. > :09:12.NHS, but I get by the Honourable member of for Glasgow believes the

:09:13. > :09:16.aunt. We need the NHS to be supported, and any taxes to, and to

:09:17. > :09:22.support it. I thank the Honourable Lady forgetting away. This year

:09:23. > :09:27.degree that order should be on maximising the tax take. The

:09:28. > :09:31.reduction in tax could lead to an increase in tax take. I agree with

:09:32. > :09:35.bookies should be an maximising tax take but I would go rounded and a

:09:36. > :09:40.different way. I would try to different way. I would try to

:09:41. > :09:45.encourage companies and individuals and the economy to grow, trying to

:09:46. > :09:47.get people into more productive jobs, and increase productivity. An

:09:48. > :09:52.increase in productivity is something the Government has

:09:53. > :09:58.mentioned and something we have been good at in Scotland recently. It is

:09:59. > :10:07.higher than at sides of the border. That is why I would start. -- than

:10:08. > :10:14.size of the border. I am just about size of the border. I am just about

:10:15. > :10:21.to vanish. Our new goal. We have got plenty of time. I thank the

:10:22. > :10:30.Honourable Lady forgetting way. Very briefly, does she not agreeing that

:10:31. > :10:34.by reducing tax in this country, reducing corporation tax in

:10:35. > :10:38.particular, we are more likely to attract inward investment and new

:10:39. > :10:45.companies from around the globe to this country, thereby producing the

:10:46. > :10:48.taxes to pay for our public services. I do not believe that

:10:49. > :10:56.there is a huge amount of evidence for that. And companies are looking

:10:57. > :11:00.at where to base their headquarters, corporation tax doesn't feature all

:11:01. > :11:03.that highly on the list of places. They are looking for good and the

:11:04. > :11:08.structure, good schools, good support in this journey and it is

:11:09. > :11:18.four and a vigil. Corporation tax is not at the top of that list. I would

:11:19. > :11:28.do other things first. It will be someday. That is the end of my

:11:29. > :11:38.comments. Thank you. The question is that clause seven stand part of the

:11:39. > :11:45.it. As many as are of the opinion, it. As many as are of the opinion,

:11:46. > :11:58.say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The aye savant.

:11:59. > :12:05.That close 11 stand part of the bell. As many as are of the opinion,

:12:06. > :12:13.say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The aye have it. Closes 12 to 16,

:12:14. > :12:17.the question is that clauses 12 to 16 stab part of the bill. As many as

:12:18. > :12:24.are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the nose

:12:25. > :12:28.17 and 18 stand part of the bill. As 17 and 18 stand part of the bill. As

:12:29. > :12:35.many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:12:36. > :12:39.aye have full stop the question is that 19 and 20 stand part of the

:12:40. > :12:46.bell. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:12:47. > :12:49.think the nose have it. The question is closed 21 stand part of bill. As

:12:50. > :12:55.many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:12:56. > :13:01.ayes have it. The question is clauses 22 to 44 sad part of the

:13:02. > :13:12.bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:13:13. > :13:14.think the nose have it. The question is that clauses 45 to 47

:13:15. > :13:17.of the bell. As many as are of the of the bell. As many as are of the

:13:18. > :13:24."no". The ayes have it. We come to "no". The ayes have it. We come

:13:25. > :13:37.clause 40 eight. The Government clause 40 eight. The Government

:13:38. > :13:40.amended for a proposed clause 48, the question is should the amendment

:13:41. > :13:47.be made. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:13:48. > :13:48."no". The ayes have it. The question is that clause 48 as amended

:13:49. > :13:51.part of the bell. As many as are of part of the bell. As many as are of

:13:52. > :14:00.the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes covered.

:14:01. > :14:03.Clauses 49 to 56. The question is that they stand part of the bell. As

:14:04. > :14:08.many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. I

:14:09. > :14:16.think the nose have it. We now come to the next set. The group on the

:14:17. > :14:20.value added tax and the question that clause 47 stand part of the

:14:21. > :14:28.bill with which it will be conveniently considered schedules 19

:14:29. > :14:33.and two. Thank you very much. I beg to move that clause 57 stand part of

:14:34. > :14:41.the bell. No VAT is charged by an adapted vehicle by an four disabled

:14:42. > :14:46.allow wheelchair users to allow allow wheelchair users to allow

:14:47. > :14:50.independent has been abused by an scrupulous people. They are selling

:14:51. > :14:56.the vehicles on for additional profit. We have discovered for

:14:57. > :15:03.example that one person purchased 30 BMW's under the scheme in one day,

:15:04. > :15:09.and another part 100 vehicles of the nature I would describe as

:15:10. > :15:14.high-performance sports cars and the like, again, that was an under two

:15:15. > :15:25.years. This is clear abuse of the scheme, and the scheme's integrity

:15:26. > :15:30.as questioned by this behaviour. Clause 57 bullish set the number of

:15:31. > :15:32.vehicles and individuals are some in under half of that individual may

:15:33. > :15:44.purchase under the scheme to one every three years. There is.

:15:45. > :15:49.Foster's the legislation recognises that the replacement vehicle make

:15:50. > :15:56.genuine need to be practice within the period. An addition, because

:15:57. > :16:02.makes it mandatory for elasticity met paperwork to HMRC as well as

:16:03. > :16:06.apply penalties to those abusing the scheme. We expect those changes will

:16:07. > :16:11.support those who it is intended to add the cost of about ?40 million

:16:12. > :16:15.per year by reducing fraud and saving taxpayers up to ?80 million

:16:16. > :16:19.over the next five years. The Chancellor announced these changes

:16:20. > :16:24.in the Autumn Statement, and they were welcomed by key stakeholders

:16:25. > :16:25.including disabled motor UK, who stated that disabled motoring UK

:16:26. > :16:28.supporting the efforts of the supporting the efforts of the

:16:29. > :16:30.Government to safeguard the scheme and make sure it is only access by

:16:31. > :16:41.eligible disabled motorists. It is our intention we tackle this

:16:42. > :16:45.fraud but continue to offer financial support to disabled

:16:46. > :16:53.wheelchair users to lead independent lives. I moved that clause 57 stands

:16:54. > :16:58.part of the bill. Let me turn to new clause two. Scheduled by the SNP. We

:16:59. > :17:06.returned to a subject that has had the doting in this chamber before.

:17:07. > :17:10.The issue of VAT on Scottish fire and rescue. This new clause has been

:17:11. > :17:14.tabled by the honourable member for Aberdeen North. It requests that the

:17:15. > :17:18.Treasury commissioned a review of the VAT treatment of the Scottish

:17:19. > :17:22.police authority and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Reporting

:17:23. > :17:29.the costs of VAT at present and how this would change if they were

:17:30. > :17:33.eligible for refunds. Mr Chairman, to recover by comments that have

:17:34. > :17:38.been made from this dispatch box before, to receive sections 33 VAT

:17:39. > :17:43.refunds a body must receive funding through local taxation and perform a

:17:44. > :17:47.function of a local authority. Now in 2012 the Scottish Government

:17:48. > :17:52.restructured its regional police and Fire Services into two national

:17:53. > :17:56.bodies. Police Scotland be Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Both are

:17:57. > :18:01.funded locally and do not, let me complete the exposition, if I can,

:18:02. > :18:08.of why this doesn't qualify. Both those bodies are funded centrally,

:18:09. > :18:13.rather than through local taxation, therefore do not meet eligibility

:18:14. > :18:16.criteria for section 33 VAT refunds. The Treasury warned the Scottish

:18:17. > :18:21.Government in advance that making these changes would result in the

:18:22. > :18:24.last of VAT refunds and so in deciding to go ahead be Scottish

:18:25. > :18:29.Government fully considered the costs and benefits of doing so

:18:30. > :18:32.including the loss of VAT refunds. Therefore, there is no additional

:18:33. > :18:36.benefits to be had from the Government committing Resorts and

:18:37. > :18:41.time to produce a report on this issue. I therefore urge the

:18:42. > :18:45.committee to reject new clause two. Just before I finish give way.

:18:46. > :18:51.I wonder if the Chief Secretary can tell us how London legacy and

:18:52. > :18:55.England are funded. These are all matters that have been

:18:56. > :19:00.covered before. I referred the honourable lady two comments I've

:19:01. > :19:04.made previously in response to similar comments and interventions.

:19:05. > :19:08.It is not just in finance Bill is that these measures have been

:19:09. > :19:12.discussed, but also during the passage of the Scotland Bill there

:19:13. > :19:17.was discussion of this. Again, the message was the same. This was a

:19:18. > :19:21.decision taken in the full knowledge of the VAT consequences, therefore I

:19:22. > :19:27.urge her to reject the tabled new clause which calls Riverview.

:19:28. > :19:34.Thank you, very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. If the Minister changes the

:19:35. > :19:38.consideration of the Scottish police and fire I promise not to raise this

:19:39. > :19:43.again in the house. I see she's getting fed up of discussing this,

:19:44. > :19:47.and frankly, so am I. But if the Government were to move on this we

:19:48. > :19:54.would not raise it again. Would she give way? The other option open to

:19:55. > :19:58.the Government would be to devolve power over VAT to the Scottish

:19:59. > :20:02.parliament so that it could make all these decisions. We were promised

:20:03. > :20:04.the most powerful legislature in the world so why doesn't the Government

:20:05. > :20:09.live up to that commitment and give us the powers we need?

:20:10. > :20:15.I agree with my colleague. What we have is devolved portions of VAT

:20:16. > :20:19.which actually makes not a huge amount of sense. Although we welcome

:20:20. > :20:23.any new power was coming to be Scottish parliament it would be much

:20:24. > :20:29.better if we had all control over fat rather than just an income. In

:20:30. > :20:36.terms of this, the Scottish police and Fire Service are charged VAT,

:20:37. > :20:41.and like highways England, which is a national English body, and like

:20:42. > :20:47.London legacy which is a national UK wide body. Both of those the UK

:20:48. > :20:50.Government has created exemption for because the UK Government decided

:20:51. > :20:58.was a good idea. They have not done this for Scottish police and fire.

:20:59. > :21:01.This is costing the Scottish people because Scottish police and Scottish

:21:02. > :21:07.Fire have to pay this VAT bill to the UK Government rather than having

:21:08. > :21:14.the money to spend. But she give way? Yes. There's that charge is

:21:15. > :21:19.costing Scotland's emergency services tens of millions of pounds

:21:20. > :21:24.per year. Does she agree with me that both her constituents and mine

:21:25. > :21:26.would rather this money was spent fighting crime and funding emergency

:21:27. > :21:29.services rather than plugging the holes in the Tory government budget

:21:30. > :21:35.because of poor planning and budgeting?

:21:36. > :21:39.I absolutely agree with my colleague. In June 2016 it was

:21:40. > :21:46.reported that Scotland's single police force has paid ?76.5 million

:21:47. > :21:51.in VAT since it was formed in the three years previously. It remains

:21:52. > :21:54.unable to claim that tax. The UK Government has created exemption is

:21:55. > :21:59.for other bodies it sees as important. Why are London Legacy And

:22:00. > :22:04.Highways England more important than Scottish police and Scottish Fire?

:22:05. > :22:10.We ask the UK Government to change this. The question is that clause 57

:22:11. > :22:20.stand as part of the bill. Decision-macro. The ayes have

:22:21. > :22:26.we now stand with the question at clause lifted becomes part of the

:22:27. > :22:34.bill with which it is convenient to consider the question at clause 59

:22:35. > :22:37.stands as part of the bill. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Clause 58

:22:38. > :22:42.legislate is for the increase in standard rates premium tax from 12%

:22:43. > :22:46.to 10% as announced at the Autumn Statement 2016. This change will be

:22:47. > :22:51.effective from the 1st of June this year. Clause 59 makes minor changes

:22:52. > :22:57.to provision so insurers cannot artificially avoid is paying the new

:22:58. > :23:01.rate of tax by adjusting contact days. The Government remains can

:23:02. > :23:05.admitted to the fiscal mandate of eliminating the deficit. Much as but

:23:06. > :23:09.she. The Government is forecast to have reduced the deficit by two

:23:10. > :23:14.thirds by the end of this year. In 2018 and 19 debt will fall for the

:23:15. > :23:20.first time in 16 years. However, we cannot be complacent. A recent

:23:21. > :23:25.report highlights the challenges posed on an ageing population.

:23:26. > :23:32.Projecting debt almost trebling by 234% over the next 50 years. If no

:23:33. > :23:36.further action is taken. I'm so sorry to interrupt the honourable

:23:37. > :23:42.lady, but I speak on behalf of a Scout group who are most concerned

:23:43. > :23:48.about the impact insurance premium tax increases will have on

:23:49. > :23:51.charities. Not just Scout groups. Has she considered this matter since

:23:52. > :23:55.my boyfriend raise this previously, and does she have good news if not

:23:56. > :24:07.for the whole charity sector, at least for the -- honourable friend

:24:08. > :24:14.raise this. I am happy to put his local Scout group on the record, as

:24:15. > :24:22.it were. I attended and spoke at a charity tax conference recently. The

:24:23. > :24:26.point I made to them is that whilst we aren't speaking exceptions for a

:24:27. > :24:29.number of reasons, some of them logistical, there are a lot of

:24:30. > :24:34.different ways in which the Government exempts and tries to tax

:24:35. > :24:38.for charities and sports them in other ways. The existing tax reliefs

:24:39. > :24:42.that go to charities and community groups in this country are worth

:24:43. > :24:46.many billions, and there are many that are not taken up as much as

:24:47. > :24:51.recovered. In particular, I don't know if the honourable gentleman

:24:52. > :24:55.noted it, that the issue of Scout groups got a very thorough airing

:24:56. > :25:00.during the passage of the gift aid donation scheme measures that we

:25:01. > :25:05.took through the house last autumn. Measures designed to help groups

:25:06. > :25:10.like that but do a lot of their fundraising outside of the

:25:11. > :25:13.headquarters, as it were. So whilst I can't give him comfort on this

:25:14. > :25:17.issue, I would draw his attention to the fact that there are many other

:25:18. > :25:21.ways in which we have two relief groups with the groups, particularly

:25:22. > :25:29.that recent change which I would encourage him to discuss with the

:25:30. > :25:36.Scout group because, that one was taken very much with them in mind

:25:37. > :25:41.with regard to collecting donations. Thank you very much. Essentially,

:25:42. > :25:46.this is one of the taxes the Government is keeping in. It's the

:25:47. > :25:49.third tax rising 18 months for insurance premium tax. With the

:25:50. > :25:54.minister justify why the Government is proposing this third increase

:25:55. > :26:02.which increases the rate by 20%? Well above the rate of inflation.

:26:03. > :26:05.Well, yes, I am coming to that. I think the Chancellor was admirably

:26:06. > :26:10.clear in the way he laid this out for the house at the time. The

:26:11. > :26:15.Government has worked to eliminate the deficit and invest in Britain's

:26:16. > :26:18.future. We want to ensure the public finances remain sustainable.

:26:19. > :26:23.Building resilience to future shocks. We've prioritised as a

:26:24. > :26:27.government tax changes to help ordinary working families and

:26:28. > :26:33.encourage businesses to invest in the UK. We are supporting jobs and

:26:34. > :26:40.helping people's money to go further we've committed to investment in the

:26:41. > :26:45.national productivity investment fund for infrastructure and an ?2

:26:46. > :26:52.billion for social care which relieves pressure is on the NHS. Now

:26:53. > :26:55.an increasing insurers tax means we can mean time the balance between

:26:56. > :27:01.that investment and control the deficit. The Government gives the

:27:02. > :27:05.Blacks pretty impressed. There is a tax on insurance not in any way

:27:06. > :27:09.obliged to pass on the tax of higher premiums. As if they pass on the

:27:10. > :27:13.increase it will be spread thinly across a wide range of people and

:27:14. > :27:16.businesses. In line with the informal agreement between the

:27:17. > :27:20.Government and the social age and of British insurers firms should have

:27:21. > :27:24.been given over six months notice giving them time to implement the

:27:25. > :27:28.change. This gives insurers proper warning of a rate change and ensures

:27:29. > :27:33.the correct rate of tax on a policy is known when the policy is

:27:34. > :27:38.arranged. The changes made by clause lifted will raise approximately ?850

:27:39. > :27:42.million every year to reduce the deficit whilst assuring we can fund

:27:43. > :27:48.spending commitments. That is the answer to the previous intervention.

:27:49. > :27:51.Insurance premium taxes are not consumers, it will be insurance

:27:52. > :27:56.companies tries whether to pass on 2% rate increase. Even if increases

:27:57. > :28:01.were passed on in foil the impact would be very modest, costing

:28:02. > :28:05.households less than 35p a week on average. The changes made by close

:28:06. > :28:11.59 protect revenue earning sure they cannot avoid paying the new rate of

:28:12. > :28:15.IP TV adjusting contract dates. The Government, as I said, is committed

:28:16. > :28:19.to reducing the deficit while still investing in the UK. This requires

:28:20. > :28:23.some difficult decisions, including the 2% increase to the standard rate

:28:24. > :28:28.of IPT. This change will be invaluable in funding vital public

:28:29. > :28:31.spending, such as the additional ?2 billion committed for social care.

:28:32. > :28:43.Therefore, I moved that the clause stands part of the bill. Thank you,

:28:44. > :28:48.Mr Deputy Speaker. It's really interesting to hear the ministers

:28:49. > :28:53.say it only costs an average of 35p a week, 35p a week is quite a lot,

:28:54. > :29:00.particularly if you don't have an extra 35p a week. The ABI says that

:29:01. > :29:04.UK consumers and businesses already pay relatively high levels of IPT.

:29:05. > :29:10.It cannot be right that people are being forced to pay an increasingly

:29:11. > :29:14.high price for doing the responsible thing Mr Deputy Speaker, this is, as

:29:15. > :29:20.was said by my colleague, this is the third increase. At the start of

:29:21. > :29:25.parliament it was something like 3%, and 6.5, by 9.5. This has been

:29:26. > :29:30.increasing over the course of this Parliament. This is a tax on people

:29:31. > :29:34.doing the right thing. It is a tax on people insuring their homes and

:29:35. > :29:39.properties. I agree with the honourable member who spoke about

:29:40. > :29:44.the Scout group. This is also a tax on charities and organisations that

:29:45. > :29:52.are providing a brilliant experience for young boys and girls. I think

:29:53. > :29:56.that this has not been considered in to drag the Government has loved at

:29:57. > :30:03.this unseen opportunity to get a view extra pennies then. Absolutely.

:30:04. > :30:09.I'm very grateful for the honourable lady giving way. She, like me, may

:30:10. > :30:13.have a rural constituency with lots of young drivers experiencing high

:30:14. > :30:15.cost of insurance. Would she welcomed many signs from the

:30:16. > :30:20.Minister that this would be looked at in the future with respect to the

:30:21. > :30:24.impact it may have on the young, particularly if it impacts social

:30:25. > :30:29.mobility on the young? I appreciate the honourable member coming in with

:30:30. > :30:35.that. I don't actually have a rural constituency but I do live near one.

:30:36. > :30:39.I recognise that issues are faced by younger drivers. Particularly in

:30:40. > :30:44.rural areas we want young people to be able to access services. We want

:30:45. > :30:47.them to drive safely and afford insurance when they do so they can

:30:48. > :30:53.travel and access jobs and opportunities. And training, should

:30:54. > :30:58.they need to. I would agree with the member from the Conservatives, and

:30:59. > :31:02.ask, also, that this is one of the areas the Government looks at going

:31:03. > :31:07.forward. We cannot continue to see hikes in insurance premium tax. A

:31:08. > :31:12.20% hike is absolutely ridiculous, especially hot on the heels of other

:31:13. > :31:16.hikes in insurance premium tax. The Government needs to look seriously

:31:17. > :31:21.at this and commit to no further increases next Parliament.

:31:22. > :31:29.I have two points. First, to reiterate to the Minister, because

:31:30. > :31:37.she artfully shifted to saying there was a 2% rise in the tax. It is a

:31:38. > :31:44.two percentage point tax rise, 20% tax rise. I ask the Minister how she

:31:45. > :31:48.can justify that massive increase relative to inflation. She did not

:31:49. > :31:55.reply. As a Conservative tax cutter, I suppose she is embarrassed. I have

:31:56. > :32:04.another question I would like the Minister to answer. Can she rule out

:32:05. > :32:07.extending the provision of IPT? Clearly, IPT has been hit on by the

:32:08. > :32:11.Government because it is one of the few things it has not legislated not

:32:12. > :32:18.to increase is a form of taxation that will change doubtless in the

:32:19. > :32:21.Conservative manifesto. As long as this is the taxpayer sitting on

:32:22. > :32:26.because it is the one they have left, with the Minister very clearly

:32:27. > :32:31.states that they will not in future years extend IPT to the insurance

:32:32. > :32:38.market, which would net them more money? The question is that clause

:32:39. > :32:42.50 stand part of the bill. As many of that opinion is a aye. On the

:32:43. > :32:53.contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:32:54. > :33:00.We now come to the group on landfill tax, alcohol duties, other duties of

:33:01. > :33:03.taxation, oil, gas and etc. We begin with the question of whether clause

:33:04. > :33:10.60 should be part of the bill, with which it is convenient to consider

:33:11. > :33:15.the clauses listed on the selection paper. Minister to move.

:33:16. > :33:20.Thank you very much. In this part of the debate, I planned to focus my

:33:21. > :33:25.comments particularly on alcohol duties, which I anticipate being of

:33:26. > :33:29.the greatest interest to honourable members. Other clauses within this

:33:30. > :33:35.group provides for other changes and we also have a new cause tabled for

:33:36. > :33:38.the honourable member for Aberdeen North baby oil and gas industry,

:33:39. > :33:43.which we might come to. Let me turn to clause 65 first. It sets out

:33:44. > :33:48.changes to alcohol duty rates taking effect on the 13th of March 20 17.

:33:49. > :33:54.The budget and ends that the duty rates on beer, wine cider and

:33:55. > :34:00.spirits would stay flat in real terms. This is in line with devious

:34:01. > :34:07.policy forecasts. As I know that members are probably aware, alcohol

:34:08. > :34:10.duties rise by RPI inflation each year, meaning there is a cost to the

:34:11. > :34:18.Exchequer Secretary de -- freezing or cutting alcohol duty rates. If

:34:19. > :34:21.there was a cut in 2017, the Government would have had instead to

:34:22. > :34:26.raise taxes in other areas of the economy, to cut public spending or

:34:27. > :34:28.increase the public deficit. Consumers and businesses continue to

:34:29. > :34:32.benefit from the previous alcohol duty changes, which initial

:34:33. > :34:41.estimates suggest will save them around ?3 billion in duty between

:34:42. > :34:43.fiscal year is 2015-2017. I will set out briefly how other Government

:34:44. > :34:47.policies have affected different rings in the sector. Let me turn to

:34:48. > :34:51.spirits duty. The Government recognises the important

:34:52. > :34:55.contribution that Scotch whisky makes to both the economy and local

:34:56. > :35:00.communities. The Scotch Whisky Association, who I had a meeting

:35:01. > :35:10.with and a chance to hear from directly, estimate that Scotch

:35:11. > :35:16.whisky, whisky ads -- Scotch whisky ads moans of pounds to the economy.

:35:17. > :35:19.I understand distilleries provide an important source of employment firm

:35:20. > :35:25.rural communities. The Scotch Whisky Association estimate that export to

:35:26. > :35:29.200 countries and every continent was worth ?4 billion last year and

:35:30. > :35:38.accounted for nearly 20% of all UK entered ex-pats. -- exports. Exports

:35:39. > :35:43.in malts were exceeding ?1 billion for the first time last year. More

:35:44. > :35:49.Scotch whisky is sold in France in one month land cognac in an entire

:35:50. > :35:56.year. We are committed to supporting this great British success story. It

:35:57. > :36:06.was one of the first food and drink products to feature in our campaign.

:36:07. > :36:13.There was a trade visit to India last year as well. There is a

:36:14. > :36:17.potential for whisky to grow to 5% of the market with the right trade

:36:18. > :36:21.agreement. That would be equivalent to a 10% increase in the current

:36:22. > :36:25.global trading Scotch. Since ending the spirits duty escalator in 2014,

:36:26. > :36:31.the tax and a bottle Scotch whisky is now 90p Lord Barnett would have

:36:32. > :36:36.otherwise -- lower than it would have otherwise been. There has been

:36:37. > :36:42.an amendment to diverse list in relation to spirits. This would not

:36:43. > :36:47.help exports because no duty is paid on exported spirits. It would help

:36:48. > :36:50.those selling instead in the UK market. The amendment would cost the

:36:51. > :36:54.exchequer and so increase the deficit by around ?100 million this

:36:55. > :36:59.year. The Government is therefore, for the reasons I have indicated,

:37:00. > :37:06.not least the Bottom Line scorecard cost, rejecting this amendment as it

:37:07. > :37:10.were not help exporters of whisky or other spirits and it is underfunded.

:37:11. > :37:15.Clause 65 keeps spirit duty rates flat in real terms so consumers will

:37:16. > :37:23.continue to benefit from the previous change to spirits duty

:37:24. > :37:29.rates. I should touch, while we're on spirits, and another great

:37:30. > :37:36.British success. The gin industry. I was informed with industry

:37:37. > :37:42.specialists that gin sales exceeded ?1 billion for the first time in the

:37:43. > :37:46.UK recently. I expect that many others will be partaking in a number

:37:47. > :37:52.of these products in the week ahead. I said a number of us! Perhaps in

:37:53. > :38:00.celebration, perhaps sustenance, perhaps in who knows what? It is

:38:01. > :38:05.good that we put on record these British success stories, as they

:38:06. > :38:15.say. I was also told that the number of gin brands has more than doubled

:38:16. > :38:18.since 2010. Yes, doubles all-round. A typical bottle of gin and means

:38:19. > :38:22.80p Lord Barnett would have been since we ended the spirit duty

:38:23. > :38:28.escalator. As for Scotch whisky, there is no UK duty payable on

:38:29. > :38:35.exported gym. Turning to bear, we also ended the beer duty escalator

:38:36. > :38:42.to help pubs. Pubs play an important role in promoting responsible

:38:43. > :38:46.drinking and are important in June July. Brewers make an important

:38:47. > :38:50.contribution to local Connelly 's and the increase in the number of

:38:51. > :38:55.small brewers in recent years has increased diversity and choice in

:38:56. > :38:59.the beer market by promoting a larger range of beers. That has

:39:00. > :39:03.benefited all brewers. This does not undo the previous year due to cuts

:39:04. > :39:11.and freezes. The Government cut the tax on a typical pint in previous

:39:12. > :39:16.years and froze duty rates last year. As a result of this, drinkers

:39:17. > :39:21.are paying 11p less in tax on a typical pint this year than they

:39:22. > :39:25.would otherwise have. On Wine jetty, the Government is also committed to

:39:26. > :39:35.supporting the UK wine industry. First joint industry and Defra round

:39:36. > :39:40.table resulted in industry targets, including targets to increase wine

:39:41. > :39:45.production tenfold by 2020. The wine sector will continue to benefit from

:39:46. > :39:49.previous changes to wine duty rates. Cider makers also play an important

:39:50. > :39:54.role in rural economies, using over half the apples grown in the UK. The

:39:55. > :40:00.duty on a typical pint of cider remains around half of that on a

:40:01. > :40:05.typical pint of beer. The tax remains law as it would have -- than

:40:06. > :40:10.it would have been because of the Government's decision to change

:40:11. > :40:14.cider duty rates since 2014. To conclude, we fully recognise the

:40:15. > :40:18.importance of the alcohol industry to the economy and local

:40:19. > :40:22.communities. I have talked and met with failure 's representatives from

:40:23. > :40:25.across the alcohol industry and will continue to engage with them. The

:40:26. > :40:32.cuts and freezes in duty rates, since ending the alcohol duty

:40:33. > :40:39.escalator is, will continue to save businesses around ?3 billion of duty

:40:40. > :40:43.between fiscal year 2013 and 2017. However, a loving alcohol duties to

:40:44. > :40:46.follow every year in real terms would be unsustainable in the long

:40:47. > :40:52.term. If alcohol duties had been frozen or cut at G2017, the

:40:53. > :40:58.Government would have had to raise taxes in other areas of the economy

:40:59. > :41:02.or increase the public deficit. This increases duties in line with

:41:03. > :41:09.inflation, has assumed in the fiscal forecasts. This is not a return to

:41:10. > :41:13.the real time increases this year. I move that this clause stays part of

:41:14. > :41:18.the bill. I will start talking about alcohol

:41:19. > :41:24.and whisky in particular and then I will move on to talk about oil and

:41:25. > :41:26.gas. Specifically around whisky, I appreciate the minister taking the

:41:27. > :41:32.time to talk about the country vision of the Scottish whisk the

:41:33. > :41:37.industry. -- whisky industry. It is indeed contribute to the economy,

:41:38. > :41:41.particularly the 40,000 jobs and 7000 in the real economy. Those are

:41:42. > :41:47.really important, particularly for Scottish rural communities. The

:41:48. > :41:54.changes that were made previously to spirit duty meant that there was

:41:55. > :41:56.confidence in the industry again. And we saw Bill change in the

:41:57. > :42:00.industry and last couple of years because of the positive moves the UK

:42:01. > :42:13.Government made in relation to spirit duty. A dozen new

:42:14. > :42:18.distilleries open and others in planning. But changes will mean that

:42:19. > :42:23.every ?4 ?5 spent on whisky go to the Government's Coffer. My

:42:24. > :42:28.colleague from the Isle of Bute, chairperson of the all-party group

:42:29. > :42:37.on Scotch whisky, spoke at length, well, only four minutes, on this,

:42:38. > :42:39.and a second reading of the bill. I appreciate the minister talking

:42:40. > :42:42.about the gin industry and the real success story it has been,

:42:43. > :42:50.particularly for these new distilleries. It takes a well to

:42:51. > :42:55.mature Scotch whisky but not gin. The issue that we have got is the

:42:56. > :42:58.context this is seen in. I understand the minister saying that

:42:59. > :43:05.this would not affect people selling these products abroad, but given

:43:06. > :43:08.that most of the producers selling whisky are also selling whisky in

:43:09. > :43:14.the domestic market, it does have an effect on those selling abroad,

:43:15. > :43:18.obviously. In the wider context of Brexit, in the context of the fact

:43:19. > :43:21.that the trade deals that we currently have won the longer exist

:43:22. > :43:24.and we will have to negotiate new trade deals, negotiate a trade deal

:43:25. > :43:29.with the EU and sell whisky to France, as a minister mentioned, we

:43:30. > :43:33.will need to have a trade deal. In order for that to happen. We will

:43:34. > :43:38.meet trade deals with the countries we currently trade with in the EU

:43:39. > :43:44.free trade agreements. A major concern for those of us who

:43:45. > :43:50.represent constituencies that have involvement in whisky is about the

:43:51. > :44:01.protected geographical indication. It is only using -- it is an EU

:44:02. > :44:03.thing. Because of this data is, people are not allowed to bottle

:44:04. > :44:09.whisky somewhere else and Colin Scotch whisky. We're set to lose

:44:10. > :44:15.that protection when the UK leaves the EU. It is really important that

:44:16. > :44:20.this Government does what it can to ensure that the Scotch whisky

:44:21. > :44:25.industry continues today with the trade -- to be able to trade and

:44:26. > :44:32.protect its brand. I do not see that coming through. If the UK Government

:44:33. > :44:35.were not have raised the duty on whisky and spirits particularly in

:44:36. > :44:38.this budget, it would have given much more confidence to the industry

:44:39. > :44:41.going forward and they would have been and are much better position to

:44:42. > :44:44.take decisions because they would have known that they have the

:44:45. > :44:49.confidence of the UK Government. Moving to oil and gas... We have two

:44:50. > :45:04.amendments on the papers in relation to oil and gas. New clause three and

:45:05. > :45:09.me cause four. -- clause four. The first one is around the investment

:45:10. > :45:11.allowances. Now, this Tory Government has come up with the we

:45:12. > :45:17.are one of the most competitive physical regimes for oil and gas.

:45:18. > :45:24.That is all well and good. We are one of the most mature fields in the

:45:25. > :45:29.world, also. We are having to do things in the North Sea to implement

:45:30. > :45:32.new technologies that we have never seen before. So there is a huge

:45:33. > :45:36.amount of innovation from our companies having to go on in order

:45:37. > :45:44.for them to be able to achieve the UK Government's recovery strategy.

:45:45. > :45:49.This first new clauses about investment allowances and the

:45:50. > :45:53.Corporation tax rates on companies producing oil and gas. The UK

:45:54. > :45:59.Government has put the tax up and down, but it has not at any stage

:46:00. > :46:03.sit down and looked at the entire taxation of the oil and gas industry

:46:04. > :46:08.and said, we are operating in a new scenario. It has kept taxes that we

:46:09. > :46:12.have had since oil and gas began to be taken from the North Sea. It is

:46:13. > :46:15.time for UK Government to look at the tax structure and regimes and

:46:16. > :46:21.see how it can incentivise companies to ensure that they are getting the

:46:22. > :46:25.best out of the North Sea and securing jobs in the north-east of

:46:26. > :46:31.Scotland and beyond for as long as possible.

:46:32. > :46:40.I'd like to talk about my new clause four in my name and that of the SNP.

:46:41. > :46:45.It's about the competitiveness of UK registered companies. I've mentioned

:46:46. > :46:48.deep commissioning but I've also mention new fields. This is a

:46:49. > :46:53.similar clause to the one we moved last year in the Finance Bill. This

:46:54. > :46:57.is something I would like to see the Government take action on. Whenever

:46:58. > :47:02.I meet with supply chain companies or individuals who are working at

:47:03. > :47:07.the coal face, if you like in oil and gas, they tell me this is a

:47:08. > :47:11.major issue. We are seeing decommissioning beginning in the

:47:12. > :47:16.North Sea. There are some fields at the end of their lives, some in the

:47:17. > :47:20.North Sea are at the end of usable life, whatever we do they are at the

:47:21. > :47:26.end of their life. They are being decommissioned. This is new for us.

:47:27. > :47:30.Companies are having to innovate. We don't want to see any of the jobs

:47:31. > :47:34.created in decommissioning going abroad if we can help it. We would

:47:35. > :47:39.like to see this government look at what it can do to the tax regime to

:47:40. > :47:45.ensure those jobs are kept in the UK as far as possible. In relation to

:47:46. > :47:50.new fields we are asking about that. I spoke during the second reading in

:47:51. > :47:57.relation to small pools, those which have less than 50 million barrels of

:47:58. > :48:00.oil. They are not in this tax system, in this fiscal situation,

:48:01. > :48:06.they are not particularly economically viable. The vast

:48:07. > :48:11.majority will not be exploited. Within the current tax regime. If we

:48:12. > :48:16.were seeing changes to the tax regime in order to see those small

:48:17. > :48:19.pools being exploited, if we were seeing further encouragement for

:48:20. > :48:24.companies and the ability to develop new technologies, for example, so

:48:25. > :48:29.that we can access those small fields, then we would see the UK

:48:30. > :48:36.Government's tax take increase as a result of fields being exploited. If

:48:37. > :48:39.we just leave them babies going to be a problem, particularly further

:48:40. > :48:44.down the line. That would be is going to be a problem. They rely on

:48:45. > :48:49.installations that are currently rare. If the big installation in the

:48:50. > :48:53.middle goes, is decommissioned, we lose access to smaller fields around

:48:54. > :48:59.about. This is something the UK Government needs to be on top of

:49:00. > :49:05.today. The last thing is something that made me pretty angry at the

:49:06. > :49:08.budget debate and budget speeches. The UK Government 's, the Chancellor

:49:09. > :49:14.stood up and announced that he was going to make it easier for

:49:15. > :49:18.companies to transfer late life assets. Installations near the end

:49:19. > :49:23.of usable life. He said we are going to have a commission to look into

:49:24. > :49:27.this. This is the same thing he announced last year at the budget,

:49:28. > :49:30.except last year he didn't say he would have a commission. If they'd

:49:31. > :49:43.done it last year they wouldn't need a commissioned this year. I know

:49:44. > :49:47.this is technical, but the Government needs to get in gear and

:49:48. > :49:49.make these changes so these assets can be transferred from the big

:49:50. > :49:57.player was got other things to focus on to a nuclear coming in. -- new

:49:58. > :50:01.player coming in. I appreciate the Government has a commission. I would

:50:02. > :50:05.rather they had done it last year. Even though they didn't we are on

:50:06. > :50:12.board in supporting that change as soon as. The question is that clause

:50:13. > :50:16.six stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To

:50:17. > :50:30.the contrary, 'no'.. The nose have it. The question is that clause 62

:50:31. > :50:36.to 63 stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say

:50:37. > :50:42.'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . I think the noes have it. The noes

:50:43. > :50:45.have it. The question is that clause 64 and 65 stand part of the bill. As

:50:46. > :50:56.many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . The

:50:57. > :51:05.ayes have it. The question is that clause 66 to 67 stand part of the

:51:06. > :51:08.bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. .

:51:09. > :51:12.I think the noes have it. The question is that clause is 68 to 69

:51:13. > :51:19.stand part of the bill, As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the

:51:20. > :51:25.contrary, 'no'. , the ayes habit. The question is that clause 70 stand

:51:26. > :51:31.part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the

:51:32. > :51:40.contrary, 'no'.. I think the noes habit. Have it. We now come to a

:51:41. > :51:48.vote on the soft drink industry levy. A question that forms a

:51:49. > :51:57.clauses amendments and schedules listed on the selection paper.

:51:58. > :52:02.Minister? Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Clauses 71 to 107 of the

:52:03. > :52:07.Finance Bill contain provisions for a new tax caused the soft drink

:52:08. > :52:11.industry levy to be introduced from April 20 18. This is a key pillar in

:52:12. > :52:18.the Government's childhood obesity plan and welcomed by public health

:52:19. > :52:21.campaigners. Tackling obesity is an international challenge of the UK

:52:22. > :52:25.has one of the highest of these debates in the developed world.

:52:26. > :52:28.Childhood obesity is a concern. Nearly one third of children aged

:52:29. > :52:33.two to 15 are overweight or obese and we know many of these children

:52:34. > :52:36.go on to become obese adults. Obesity drives disease, as we are

:52:37. > :52:41.reminded as we can do the underground station at the moment in

:52:42. > :52:51.Westminster by the Cancer Research UK posters. It increases the risk of

:52:52. > :52:54.heart disease, type two diabetes, stroke and cancer. The NHS spends

:52:55. > :52:59.over ?6 billion a year across the UK dealing with obesity related costs.

:53:00. > :53:04.It is estimated between 27 and ?46 billion every year. This cannot go

:53:05. > :53:07.on. Sugary drink so one of the biggest contributors to childhood

:53:08. > :53:16.obesity and a source of empty cavities. Technical calories. They

:53:17. > :53:21.typically contain nine teaspoons of sugar. Some have as many as 13

:53:22. > :53:25.teaspoons. This can be more than double the daily recommended intake

:53:26. > :53:33.in one cannot drink. The Government recognises this as a problem and so

:53:34. > :53:36.do many others. 60 officers are calling on a tax on sugary drink and

:53:37. > :53:41.a petition has been signed in favour. This issue has received a

:53:42. > :53:45.high level of cross-party support. Some soft drinks reducers recognised

:53:46. > :53:50.sugar levels in their drinks were a problem to and start to reduce sugar

:53:51. > :53:54.content moving consumers towards diet and sugar free variance and

:53:55. > :53:58.reducing portion sizes for high sugar beverages. But reducing the

:53:59. > :54:03.added sugar is now a public health priority. This new levy is needed to

:54:04. > :54:07.speed up the process. It is specifically designed to encourage

:54:08. > :54:11.the industry to move faster. We gave the industry to use to make progress

:54:12. > :54:14.on this, and we can see it's already working. Since the Government

:54:15. > :54:19.announced the levy last March we've seen a number of major producer

:54:20. > :54:24.accelerates their work to read sugar out of their soft inside escape the

:54:25. > :54:29.charge. This includes Tesco who have already read formerly did the whole

:54:30. > :54:36.brand of in brand soft drinks to not play the levy. Similar moves from

:54:37. > :54:42.Lucozade, Ribena and Irn-Bru. The fact that 40% of all drinks have now

:54:43. > :54:48.been reformatted by the introduction of the levy and we see international

:54:49. > :54:51.action. Other countries like Ireland, Spain, Portugal, as Sony

:54:52. > :54:56.and South Africa have brought forward similar proposals. Because

:54:57. > :55:03.of this reformulation we now expect the levy to raise around ?385

:55:04. > :55:06.million per year which is less than the ?520 million originally

:55:07. > :55:10.forecast. We are clear this is its excess. The Government will still

:55:11. > :55:14.find the department bread and budget with the ?1 billion the levy was

:55:15. > :55:22.originally expected to raise including money to double the

:55:23. > :55:24.primary school sports premium, deliver funding for school breakfast

:55:25. > :55:27.clubs and ?415 million to be invested in it have the pupils

:55:28. > :55:31.capital programme. Devolved administrations will receive ballot

:55:32. > :55:34.funding in the usual way. The Secretary of State for Education

:55:35. > :55:40.recently announced how some of the money would be spent, particularly

:55:41. > :55:43.around be healthy pupils capital programme. The levy has shown that

:55:44. > :55:48.the Government means business when it comes to reducing hidden sugar in

:55:49. > :55:52.everyday foods. This willingness to take bold action depends on other

:55:53. > :55:57.major part of our plan. Public Health England's sugar reduction

:55:58. > :56:02.programme. This is a ground-breaking programme to seek 20% cuts in sugar

:56:03. > :56:06.by 2020 across the top nine food categories that contribute the most

:56:07. > :56:11.two children's sugar intake. It's been acknowledged, not least by

:56:12. > :56:15.industry that this is challenging, but one that industries are

:56:16. > :56:18.committed to achieving and the sugar reduction programme will cover some

:56:19. > :56:23.of the drinks products which are not part of the levy such as milk -based

:56:24. > :56:26.drinks. The programme is already bearing fruit. We've seen

:56:27. > :56:30.announcements and commitments with regards to reducing levels of sugar

:56:31. > :56:35.in some of these products. Now, I know some would like to see the levy

:56:36. > :56:39.go further, in particular I have before me to amendments proposed by

:56:40. > :56:48.the member for Aberdeen North which would remove the exclusion for high

:56:49. > :56:51.milk content drinks containing at least 75% milk. We oppose those

:56:52. > :56:53.amendments, milk and milk products are a source of protein, calcium,

:56:54. > :56:58.tasking, phosphorus and iodine as well as B-2 and B12. One in five

:56:59. > :57:04.teenage girls do not get enough calcium, one in ten teenage boys. It

:57:05. > :57:08.is essential vacancy in the required amount of nutrients which aid bone

:57:09. > :57:13.formation and promote healthy growth as part of a balanced diet. As

:57:14. > :57:18.experts agree that naturally occurring sugars are not a concern

:57:19. > :57:22.from an obesity perspective, and not included within the definition of

:57:23. > :57:27.free sugars. Of course, we want is milk -based drinks to contain less

:57:28. > :57:31.added sugar and they will, therefore, be part of the sugar

:57:32. > :57:37.reduction programme. Producers will be charged unsupported to redo

:57:38. > :57:41.studied sugar content by 20% by 2020. Public Health England have

:57:42. > :57:46.committed to publishing a detailed assessment of the progress against

:57:47. > :57:50.the 20% target in March 2020, and I committed before the house that we

:57:51. > :57:55.will also revealed the exclusion milk -based drinks in 2020 based on

:57:56. > :57:59.the evidence from Public Health England's assessment of progress

:58:00. > :58:04.against the sugar reduction targets. Therefore I urge members to reject

:58:05. > :58:08.the post amendments in light of that assurance, and allow us to review

:58:09. > :58:12.the evidence in 2020, two years after the levy has begun and decide

:58:13. > :58:18.whether milk is drink should be brought within scope. Mr Chairman,

:58:19. > :58:22.obesity is a problem that has been decades in the making. We aren't

:58:23. > :58:26.going to solve it overnight. These soft drinks levy is not going to be

:58:27. > :58:32.a silver bullet, but it is an important part of the solution. This

:58:33. > :58:36.government's plan, with the levy as its flagship policy is the start of

:58:37. > :58:39.a journey marking a major step towards dealing with our national

:58:40. > :58:48.obesity crisis. I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the

:58:49. > :58:51.bill. Kirsty Blackman. Bank you, very much. On the soft drinks

:58:52. > :58:56.industry never see the Minister is correct. There has been a huge

:58:57. > :59:01.amount of cross-party 's board for the general thrust of this. The move

:59:02. > :59:08.towards tackling obesity, particularly childhood obesity. As I

:59:09. > :59:14.said we are largely supportive of the levy, however, our concern is

:59:15. > :59:17.that it doesn't go far enough. Our concern is that there are loopholes

:59:18. > :59:23.that the Government could have chosen to close when it was writing

:59:24. > :59:29.this bill. The single biggest cause of rentable cancer is obesity. More

:59:30. > :59:33.than 18,100 cancers are you are associated with excess weight.

:59:34. > :59:38.Cancer research says that sugary drinks are the number one source of

:59:39. > :59:43.sugar for 11 to 18-year-olds. For a start but is terrifying. Thinking

:59:44. > :59:48.about this statistic, I appreciate the Government has chosen to take

:59:49. > :59:54.action on this. The Government's response about milk -based drinks,

:59:55. > :59:58.concerns me. And the actual fact about milk -based drinks are

:59:59. > :00:05.particularly excluded concerns me. Will she give way? Thank you for

:00:06. > :00:09.giving way. Does she agree with me that the problem with admitting milk

:00:10. > :00:13.-based drinks from the provisions of this bill is that parents may

:00:14. > :00:16.mistakenly think that those drinks are healthier than soft drinks which

:00:17. > :00:22.have the extra tax. This is not the case. I think that's

:00:23. > :00:26.absolutely right. Given what the Minister has said about milk -based

:00:27. > :00:32.drinks containing protein, calcium and other nutrients, that is true,

:00:33. > :00:36.but so does milk! Children could just drink milk without the added

:00:37. > :00:42.sugar. This is one of those areas where there is added sugar bad

:00:43. > :00:48.people don't realise. People do not realise quite how much added sugar

:00:49. > :00:51.is in there. It's the same as past the sources for example. Parents do

:00:52. > :00:56.not realise when they see a milkshake on the shelf but about

:00:57. > :01:03.could have as much sugar as they can of fizzy juice. The download gentle

:01:04. > :01:11.practice suggested that milk -based drink should be included. -- general

:01:12. > :01:15.dental practice. The health based to committees as milk -based drink

:01:16. > :01:16.should be included. Clause four amendments would remove the

:01:17. > :01:30.exemption for milk -based drinks. I appreciate the Government saying

:01:31. > :01:35.they will review this in 2020 and that they have decided to make that

:01:36. > :01:41.change. Ota promise that coming in in the future. -- or promising that.

:01:42. > :01:45.I appreciate that they have done that.

:01:46. > :01:51.The question is that clause 71 stand part of the bill. As many as of that

:01:52. > :01:59.opinion say aye. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have

:02:00. > :02:04.it. As many of that opinion say aye. To

:02:05. > :02:09.the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to the

:02:10. > :02:16.group on fulfilment businesses, digital reporting, and including

:02:17. > :02:19.provisions. We begin with the question that clause 108 stand part

:02:20. > :02:23.of the bill, with which it would be convenient to consider the clauses,

:02:24. > :02:38.amendments and schedules on the selection paper. Kirsty Blackman.

:02:39. > :02:44.I beg to move. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the Government

:02:45. > :02:50.withdrawing the provisions in this. I understand the Government

:02:51. > :02:57.commitment, but I think the changes are reasonable. Thank you. With your

:02:58. > :03:02.indulgence, I thought this would be an appropriate moment to pay tribute

:03:03. > :03:06.to the member for Chichester, the outgoing member for Chichester, and

:03:07. > :03:10.chairperson of the Treasury Select Committee. The Treasury Select

:03:11. > :03:14.Committee has paid a lot of attention to making tax digital.

:03:15. > :03:17.There can be no more fitting tribute to the member for Chichester's

:03:18. > :03:23.leaving this House than the Government withdrawing making tax

:03:24. > :03:27.digital. The honourable member's tribute, selling used to myself, is

:03:28. > :03:35.most appropriate and a do thank him for that. -- is certainly news to

:03:36. > :03:38.myself. The Government does not support the first clause 108.

:03:39. > :03:43.Apologies for not making that clear before. With regard to the comment

:03:44. > :03:47.about making tax digital, I refer colleagues to the statement I made

:03:48. > :03:53.at the beginning of the first group. The question is that clause 108

:03:54. > :03:57.stand part of the bill. As many as that opinion say aye. On the

:03:58. > :04:04.contrary, no. I think the noes have it, the noes have it. The question

:04:05. > :04:11.is that clauses 109 - 126 stand part of the bill. As many of that opinion

:04:12. > :04:17.say aye. To the contrary, no. The noes have it, the noes have it. The

:04:18. > :04:23.question is that clause 127 stands part of the bill. As many of that

:04:24. > :04:30.opinion say aye. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have

:04:31. > :04:34.it. We now come to the motion to transfer clause 127, which we

:04:35. > :04:39.debated in a previous group. The question is that clause 127 be

:04:40. > :04:48.transferred to the end of line 34 on page 77. As many as that opinion say

:04:49. > :04:53.aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The

:04:54. > :04:59.question is that clauses 128-1 and June stand part of the bill. As many

:05:00. > :05:04.as are all that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. I think the noes

:05:05. > :05:10.have it, the noes have it. I called the Minister to move Government

:05:11. > :05:18.amendments 5-9 to clause 134 formerly. Government amendments 5-9

:05:19. > :05:22.to clause one of June 30 four as on the amendment paper. The question is

:05:23. > :05:29.that the amendments be made. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:05:30. > :05:36.The question is that clause 134, as amended, stays part of the bill. The

:05:37. > :05:45.ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is that clause one to 35

:05:46. > :05:48.stand part of the bill. -- 135. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I

:05:49. > :05:55.call the Minister to move Government amendment ten to schedule one

:05:56. > :05:58.formally. Government amendment ten proposed to schedule one as on the

:05:59. > :06:06.Amendment paper. The question is the Amendment be made. I think the ayes

:06:07. > :06:09.have it, the ayes have it. The question is that schedule one, as

:06:10. > :06:15.amended, the first kettle to the bill. As many as are backed opinion,

:06:16. > :06:21.say aye. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I called to move Government

:06:22. > :06:29.amendments 11 and 12 to schedule to formally. Proposed to schedule two.

:06:30. > :06:35.The question is that the Amendment be made. The ayes have it, the ayes

:06:36. > :06:44.have it. The question is scheduled to as amended be the second schedule

:06:45. > :06:55.of the bill. I think the ayes have it. I am joking. -- choking. That

:06:56. > :07:01.would have pleased some people! I call the Minister to move Government

:07:02. > :07:07.amendments 13-29 to schedule three formally. Government amendments

:07:08. > :07:14.13-29 proposed to schedule three as on the Amendment paper. The question

:07:15. > :07:18.is the amendments be made. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:07:19. > :07:25.The question is that schedule three, as amended, be the bill. As many as

:07:26. > :07:30.are that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. The eyes it, the ayes

:07:31. > :07:37.have it. I call the Minister to move Government amendments 30-36 for

:07:38. > :07:43.more. Government amendment is 30-56 proposed to schedule for as on the

:07:44. > :07:49.Amendment paper. -- schedule for Mac. The ayes have it, the ayes have

:07:50. > :07:57.it. The question is that schedule four, as amended, either Phil

:07:58. > :08:00.schedule to the bill. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The

:08:01. > :08:04.question is that schedule is five and six be the fifth and six

:08:05. > :08:09.schedule to the bill as well. As many as are of that opinion, say

:08:10. > :08:14.aye. To the contrary, no. The noes have it, the noes have it. The

:08:15. > :08:23.question is that schedule 7 be the fifth schedule... That is right. The

:08:24. > :08:29.question is that schedule 7 be the fifth schedule to the bill. As many

:08:30. > :08:34.that are of that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have it,

:08:35. > :08:45.the ayes have it. The question is that schedules 8-15 be the sixth at

:08:46. > :08:54.213 schedules of the bill. -- up to 13. The noes have it. I called to

:08:55. > :09:01.have schedule 57 to 16 for my. -- formally. The question is that the

:09:02. > :09:04.Amendment is made. As many that are of the opinion say aye. The ayes

:09:05. > :09:20.have it, the ayes have it. The question is that schedules 17

:09:21. > :09:24.and 18 to be the seventh and eighth schedules to the bill. As many that

:09:25. > :09:29.are of that opinion say aye, nor contrary, no. The noes have it, the

:09:30. > :09:37.noes have it. The question is 19-23 be the seventh to 11th schedules to

:09:38. > :09:41.the bill. As many at the Mac of that opinion, say aye. The ayes have it,

:09:42. > :09:52.the ayes have it. The question is that schedule 17-24 the their 12th

:09:53. > :09:57.to 17th schedules to the bill. I think the noes have it, the noes

:09:58. > :10:02.have it. The question is that they do report the bill as amended to the

:10:03. > :10:06.House. As many that are of that opinion say aye, to the contrary,

:10:07. > :10:28.no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order, order.

:10:29. > :10:35.Order. Anne Begg to report the committee has gone through the bill

:10:36. > :10:41.and directing me to report the same, with amendments. Under the order of

:10:42. > :10:46.the House of yesterday, we shall now moved to the remaining stages. No

:10:47. > :10:51.amendments on consideration. I shall now suspend the House for no more

:10:52. > :10:56.than five minutes in order to make a decision about certification. The

:10:57. > :11:00.bells on the run two minutes before the House resumes. Following my

:11:01. > :11:04.certification, the Government will table the appropriate consent

:11:05. > :11:08.motion, copies of which will be made available in the vote office and

:11:09. > :17:21.will be distributed by door keepers. Order.

:17:22. > :17:42.Order! Order! For the purposes of standing order number 80 two I

:17:43. > :17:48.certified clause two is relating exclusively to England, Wales and

:17:49. > :17:51.Northern Ireland. And within devolved legislative competence.

:17:52. > :17:55.Order number 82 bel four, the following amendment as relating

:17:56. > :18:01.exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is the

:18:02. > :18:06.omission of clause 60 of the bill, in committee of the whole house.

:18:07. > :18:12.Copies of certificates are available in the vote office and on

:18:13. > :18:19.Parliamentary website. And a standing order number 83 M and 83 S,

:18:20. > :18:24.the consent motion is therefore required for the bill to proceed.

:18:25. > :18:28.Copies of the motion are available on the roads office and have been

:18:29. > :18:35.made available to members in the chamber. Does the Minister intend to

:18:36. > :18:40.move the motion? And a standing order number 83 M, the house must

:18:41. > :18:44.forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee England,

:18:45. > :19:14.Wales and Northern Ireland. Order! Order! Order! They will now be a

:19:15. > :19:18.debate on the consent motion for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

:19:19. > :19:22.I remind honourable member is that all members may speak in the debate

:19:23. > :19:26.but if there are divisions only members representing constituencies

:19:27. > :19:31.in England, Wales and Northern Ireland may vote on a consent

:19:32. > :19:36.motion. I call a minister to move the consent motion for England,

:19:37. > :19:40.Wales and Northern Ireland. The question is the consent motion

:19:41. > :19:51.relating to England, Wales and Northern Ireland as on the notice

:19:52. > :19:54.paper. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. .

:19:55. > :20:27.The ayes have it. I beg to report that the legislative

:20:28. > :20:31.grand committee, England, Wales and Northern Ireland has consented to

:20:32. > :20:39.the certified clause and certified amendment of the Finance number two

:20:40. > :20:46.bill. Third reading? The question is that the bill be now read the third

:20:47. > :20:51.time, Minister. Thank you, very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to

:20:52. > :20:57.move that the bill now be read a third time. Before I say a few words

:20:58. > :21:02.about in summary about the bill, and the few brief comments, could I just

:21:03. > :21:07.beg your indulgence to make a couple of remarks about colleagues. Earlier

:21:08. > :21:13.in the debate the right honourable member for Oxford East was present

:21:14. > :21:18.and made a valedictory speech. I did make reference to that in the

:21:19. > :21:25.remarks I made subsequent to that but I wasn't in a position to put on

:21:26. > :21:31.the record his record of service to the country, not just as a

:21:32. > :21:35.parliamentarian since 1987, but as a Minister of State for education and

:21:36. > :21:40.employment between 97 and 99 at the Treasury as Chief Secretary between

:21:41. > :21:45.99 and 2002, and that Secretary of State for Work and Pensions between

:21:46. > :21:50.2002 and 2004. Whilst he's not in his place I would ask that his front

:21:51. > :21:55.bench conveyed these sentiments to him, and perhaps draw his attention

:21:56. > :22:00.to the fact that I placed on record, on behalf of the Government and all

:22:01. > :22:05.colleagues are thanks for his service as a government minister

:22:06. > :22:11.over that period of time. With the house's indulgence, may I make a

:22:12. > :22:16.second tribute, having very recently been informed that the right

:22:17. > :22:21.honourable member, the member for Chichester is not seeking

:22:22. > :22:24.reselection at this election. I would ask, want to comment a liberal

:22:25. > :22:37.on him. He's been EMP he's been the MP for Chichester

:22:38. > :22:43.since 1987. Members may be her where he was a senior economist before

:22:44. > :22:46.entering Parliament. He is, of course, a very senior

:22:47. > :22:52.parliamentarian, it is no surprise that when we moved to electing our

:22:53. > :22:57.select committee chairs that he was elected overwhelmingly with a boat

:22:58. > :23:01.across parties, and, of course, in recent times he has served in one of

:23:02. > :23:07.the most senior positions that Parliament has, if not the most

:23:08. > :23:14.senior. As chairman of the liaison committee. In all of those roles he

:23:15. > :23:19.has been enormously distinguished and I speak for everyone in seeing

:23:20. > :23:23.very, very well liked. I have known him over the years I've been in

:23:24. > :23:28.Parliament, but as a Treasury minister I have come to know him

:23:29. > :23:33.better in recent months, and indeed, responded to his letters on many

:23:34. > :23:38.occasions and discussed them in the sidelines, as it were on a number of

:23:39. > :23:42.occasions. Throughout all those dealings, I have seen all that

:23:43. > :23:46.experience and all those qualities brought to bear. I would just like

:23:47. > :23:52.to say that for me, as a minister, he has been kind and wise and I will

:23:53. > :23:57.miss him enormously. Will belong to the third reading of the debate.

:23:58. > :24:01.Madam Deputy Speaker, the economy is fundamentally strong and this bill

:24:02. > :24:04.Caesars take another step forward in building a stronger economy and

:24:05. > :24:08.healthier society. As we have discussed this afternoon the bill is

:24:09. > :24:12.proceeding on the basis of consensus. In number of key policy

:24:13. > :24:25.changes to the tax system such as measures to tackle tax

:24:26. > :24:28.avoidance are being brought forward in a Finance bill at the first

:24:29. > :24:31.opportunity after the election. Even in short and from the bill takes

:24:32. > :24:33.action in three areas that have been consistent priorities. Firstly, the

:24:34. > :24:42.measures take further action is to reduce the deficit. This bill takes

:24:43. > :24:46.the next steps to achieve a fairer, more sustainable tax system. It

:24:47. > :24:50.makes clear the taxes to much keep pace with the different ways people

:24:51. > :24:54.work to ensure fair treatment between individuals. It also

:24:55. > :24:58.demonstrates our continued commitment to tackling tax avoidance

:24:59. > :25:01.and evasion to level the playing field for the honest majority of

:25:02. > :25:08.businesses and individuals that pay what they owe. Finally, in a cause

:25:09. > :25:12.particularly close to my heart is a former health minister, this Bill

:25:13. > :25:16.marks an important step in Chaplin childhood obesity by legislating for

:25:17. > :25:21.the soft drinks industry levy. Something I noted we have achieved a

:25:22. > :25:25.great deal of cross-party consensus. This will deliver a brighter and

:25:26. > :25:31.healthier future for our children. I'm delighted we were able to bring

:25:32. > :25:34.it to the statute book. In conclusion, the Finance Bill

:25:35. > :25:38.supports our commitment to a fair and sustainable tax system which

:25:39. > :25:43.offers support to public services and gets the country back to living

:25:44. > :25:46.within its means. In that regard it sits within this government's

:25:47. > :25:52.long-term commitment to improving the strength of our economy and I

:25:53. > :25:57.commend it to the house. The question is that the Bill be now

:25:58. > :26:02.read a third time. Just before I call the opposition spokesman, may I

:26:03. > :26:07.echo, on behalf of the whole house, the kind words that the minister has

:26:08. > :26:12.said, particularly about to be honourable member is for Oxford East

:26:13. > :26:18.and Chichester. But also for all other honourable member is present

:26:19. > :26:24.this afternoon and have taken part in this Bill and many similar bills

:26:25. > :26:29.assiduously, and brilliantly, on behalf of their constituents and who

:26:30. > :26:36.won't be here during the next Parliament. The whole house wishes

:26:37. > :26:41.them all very well indeed. Petered out. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:26:42. > :26:46.Speaker. Can I concur with the comments you've made and the Commons

:26:47. > :26:50.the Minister has made in relation to the right honourable member for

:26:51. > :26:55.Oxford East and the member for Chichester. May I comment on my

:26:56. > :26:57.honourable friend the member for Wolverhampton South West who will

:26:58. > :27:05.also be leaving the chair. The house. It seems to me that some

:27:06. > :27:12.people have got time off for good behaviour, it seems to me. As I, can

:27:13. > :27:16.I just make a point in relation to the honourable member for Ealing

:27:17. > :27:23.North and the second Scout group he was very concerned in relation to

:27:24. > :27:29.the insurers premium tax, well, I don't think he won on that

:27:30. > :27:34.particular one. However, he has won on the sugar tax, where we will save

:27:35. > :27:43.the teeth of the Scout group on that particular action. Good news for

:27:44. > :27:48.teeth, bad news for dentists, I suspect. But anyway. I alluded

:27:49. > :27:52.earlier on to the fight that the bill was the longest finance bill

:27:53. > :28:01.that has been presented to the housing 135 clauses. 792 pages,

:28:02. > :28:04.clauses on pensions advice, overseas pensions, personal portfolios,

:28:05. > :28:10.shareholding schemes, insurance premium tax, passenger duty, duties

:28:11. > :28:15.in general, fraudulent evasion, digital reporting, data gathering

:28:16. > :28:22.and umpteen schedules. And almost each of those clauses and schedules,

:28:23. > :28:26.and many others, have had some degree of scrutiny, but not

:28:27. > :28:30.necessarily be amount of scrutiny we would like. Given the General

:28:31. > :28:38.Election has rather unhelpfully intervened in our deliberations.

:28:39. > :28:42.But, as they say, that's democracy, Madam Deputy Speaker. Scrutineers

:28:43. > :28:47.the fundamental role of Parliament. So when we can't get enough time for

:28:48. > :28:52.that role, for that scrutiny role, we need to ensure measures are not

:28:53. > :28:57.simply pushed through willy-nilly. I don't think they have been in that

:28:58. > :29:02.regard. We have to have a balance between tax-raising and the

:29:03. > :29:05.dampening effect that can have on business and society. That can be a

:29:06. > :29:10.difficult balance. That balance has been drawn pretty well today. I've

:29:11. > :29:14.referred previously to the issue about productivity and the economy.

:29:15. > :29:21.And the need to raise our game in relation to that. I productivity is

:29:22. > :29:25.a driver of economic growth. Whatever position, I hope that to

:29:26. > :29:30.some degree this Bill will help push along about productivity growth. If

:29:31. > :29:37.I may turn to be soft drinks levy the Minister has referred to. The

:29:38. > :29:44.primary school sports premium over 160 million going up to 320 million

:29:45. > :29:51.annually money for breakfast clubs and expansion and be fact that 57%

:29:52. > :29:55.of the public support the levy and obesity Alliance found that the levy

:29:56. > :30:02.could save up to 144,000 adults and children from obesity and prevent

:30:03. > :30:11.19,000 cases of type two diabetes and avoid, as I alluded to before,

:30:12. > :30:14.270,000 decayed teeth. I welcome the Minister's commitment to review in a

:30:15. > :30:19.couple of years in relation to advice from Public Health England.

:30:20. > :30:24.Of course, some measures aren't in, some will come back and we will

:30:25. > :30:28.bring measures back. We hope those measures, one way or another, will

:30:29. > :30:41.be scrutinised. And on that point, I conclude. Kirsty Blackman. Thank

:30:42. > :30:46.you, very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The debate has been very

:30:47. > :30:51.like this today. It has tended to be fairly quiet with not many of us

:30:52. > :30:55.speaking. Can I echo the comments made about the right honourable

:30:56. > :30:59.member is for Chichester and Oxford East and the honourable member for

:31:00. > :31:03.Wolverhampton South East who I had the pleasure of serving on the

:31:04. > :31:07.finance committee with last year and was constantly impressed by his

:31:08. > :31:11.incredible level of knowledge about the things we were discussing. I'll

:31:12. > :31:21.be sorry to see him go from this place. I got a few things to raise

:31:22. > :31:25.in Malaysia to the Finance Bill. -- in relation to the Finance Bill.

:31:26. > :31:29.We've had it curtail debate on the Finance Bill, finance member two

:31:30. > :31:34.bill this year. We'll be seeing a new one in the next session. But

:31:35. > :31:39.this, honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker is one of the most bizarre things

:31:40. > :31:44.I've had the chance to be a part of since I was elected, this Finance

:31:45. > :31:49.Bill is the fact that last week, on Tuesday, we had the second reading.

:31:50. > :31:57.And on Tuesday morning everything was going to proceed as normal. We

:31:58. > :31:59.were going to have two days of committee with the whole house and

:32:00. > :32:01.something like six out of Public Bill Committee and two days for the

:32:02. > :32:19.report stage and third reading. It is really totally bizarre. The

:32:20. > :32:23.amendments we had last night and intention from the Government, it

:32:24. > :32:26.was appreciated that the Government... That I received the

:32:27. > :32:29.notification to withdraw from some things last night. I appreciate that

:32:30. > :32:34.but it is very little notice to go through properly all of the matters

:32:35. > :32:40.that are in this and to work out what the Government had to proceed

:32:41. > :32:45.with. This has been very difficult to operate under the circumstances

:32:46. > :32:51.and very difficult to provide the appropriate scrutiny in the lack of

:32:52. > :32:58.time we have had. The SNP have done our best on this. We have spoken in

:32:59. > :33:03.every section today. We are the only party other than the Government to

:33:04. > :33:06.table amendments on this bill. I would like to briefly mention,

:33:07. > :33:10.before I talk about the provisions in this bill, the way that this

:33:11. > :33:15.Government tackles budgetary scrutiny and the standing orders in

:33:16. > :33:24.the way that they are written and a that this House looks at financial

:33:25. > :33:27.matters. In the past, the budget process, I have mentioned is

:33:28. > :33:32.marginally better but it is still not great. I have mentioned a number

:33:33. > :33:35.of times the better budgets report and I absolutely backed the call

:33:36. > :33:38.made by organisations that made the better budget report to have the

:33:39. > :33:47.public Bill Committee of the Finance Committee having a quick hearings.

:33:48. > :33:54.It is important this House does that and whatever Government comes in

:33:55. > :33:57.after the election should allow dealings in the Public Bill

:33:58. > :34:05.Committee stage. It would make a difference to the level of scrutiny

:34:06. > :34:14.we can provide. However, there are different individuals in the

:34:15. > :34:17.Treasury Committee as to the Finance Committee. The Minister knows that

:34:18. > :34:28.once I start ringing something up, I am not good at letting it go. I

:34:29. > :34:33.realise that these were put in place by this Government. In terms of the

:34:34. > :34:35.specific provisions by this bill, I welcome, as I said earlier today,

:34:36. > :34:45.some of the things the Government has taken it. I welcome the decision

:34:46. > :34:47.making tax digital. It would be better to bring it back following

:34:48. > :34:51.the general election and I appreciate that that decision was

:34:52. > :34:57.taken. I also particularly welcome the withdrawing of the dividend

:34:58. > :35:00.threshold. I think that was something that we did not feel like

:35:01. > :35:02.we had adequate time to screw them eyes and they appreciate the

:35:03. > :35:11.Government taking that measure to the bill. Just a few things that

:35:12. > :35:15.are, I suppose, not on the bill or that have got to the third reading

:35:16. > :35:27.stage. Around tax evasion, a new cause we tabled in religion to

:35:28. > :35:32.tax evasion. And to bring back a proper full report on all other ways

:35:33. > :35:36.in which international comparisons have been successful in tackling

:35:37. > :35:39.tax. I get that there might be peace deal bits of work being done on the

:35:40. > :35:43.Tassel report on this would be incredibly helpful for the

:35:44. > :35:46.Government going forward to nature the right decisions are being taken

:35:47. > :35:51.about tackling tax evasion. We are also clear that there is still not

:35:52. > :35:54.enough detection for whistle-blowers and that we are indebted to those

:35:55. > :35:57.individuals that do come forward and we would like to encourage them to

:35:58. > :36:02.do so. Anything the Government can do around that would be welcome. On

:36:03. > :36:07.self-employment, last year byes-mac Finance Bill made some changes to

:36:08. > :36:10.those employed through intermediaries and this Finance Bill

:36:11. > :36:13.has done the same. And the changes that the transfer proposed in

:36:14. > :36:18.relation to national insurance and road back on, all of those are

:36:19. > :36:24.piecemeal changes to self-employment. If the comment is

:36:25. > :36:26.going to did anything with self-employment, any is to do it

:36:27. > :36:31.properly and look at everything that affects the taxation of self

:36:32. > :36:35.employed individuals and it needs to look at the tax credits of those

:36:36. > :36:41.individuals. Also in things like childcare vouchers. All those things

:36:42. > :36:44.need to be taken in the round, in addition to pension entitlement,

:36:45. > :36:52.holiday entitlement, maternity leave entitlement and in a proper tax

:36:53. > :36:54.system that should appropriately tax individuals are self-employed, as is

:36:55. > :36:59.providing them with appropriate benefits and encourage them to start

:37:00. > :37:03.businesses and to lead employment and begin their own business or

:37:04. > :37:07.leave unemployment and begin their own business. The more that we can

:37:08. > :37:12.do on that and a less shifting the Pope posts, the better the situation

:37:13. > :37:18.we will be in. Touching on oil and gas... The UK Government could do

:37:19. > :37:21.more around oil and gas. UK Government could do more than giving

:37:22. > :37:27.confidence to oil and gas industry. I would very much like it if the UK

:37:28. > :37:29.Government were to look at small pools and changes they could make to

:37:30. > :37:35.attack tax region around small pools. UK Government committed to

:37:36. > :37:40.maximising the economic strategy put in place by Sir Ian Wood. They have

:37:41. > :37:45.said that I'm back that strategy. However, they are not following this

:37:46. > :37:48.up with enough measures. Oil and gas has not been given the level of

:37:49. > :37:52.priority by this Government that it should be given. It is incredibly

:37:53. > :38:00.important to the economy of the UK as a whole as well as the economy of

:38:01. > :38:05.Scotland. There has been a massive reduction in a number of jobs in

:38:06. > :38:07.recent years. I'm not asking for this Government to significantly

:38:08. > :38:12.reduce the rate of tax for oil and gas. What I'm this Government to do

:38:13. > :38:18.is looking at incentivising investment and looking at those more

:38:19. > :38:26.difficult to reach pools. I am not asking for massive giveaways. It

:38:27. > :38:31.could be a net benefit to Government, not costing anything. I

:38:32. > :38:34.do not ask for an amazing, massive reduction in headline rates of tax.

:38:35. > :38:37.I asked for the Government to listen to companies that are coming

:38:38. > :38:40.forward, asking for small and reasonable changes, some of which

:38:41. > :38:46.will increase the UK Government's tax take, rather than decrease it.

:38:47. > :38:49.Again, I ask the Government to look particularly at the amendment is

:38:50. > :38:54.have brought forward. Particularly at the suggestions we are making. I

:38:55. > :39:03.appreciate the changes they are hoping to make in late light assets.

:39:04. > :39:08.-- late light them at life assets. Those are long overdue. As soon as

:39:09. > :39:15.that can be lamented, the better. -- implemented. We are looking at,

:39:16. > :39:19.whatever Government comes in, having a new budget and a new finance bill.

:39:20. > :39:25.We have not seen, from this Government, any recognition. We are

:39:26. > :39:31.nearly one year on from the Brexit referendum. It is nearly one year on

:39:32. > :39:48.from Matt and we have not seen any discussion of finances.

:39:49. > :39:57.-- from the Brexit foot. We have not seen any recognition of any of these

:39:58. > :40:02.things after nearly a year on. I hope that when this parliament comes

:40:03. > :40:04.back to new session with the new Government, we could see the

:40:05. > :40:10.Government recognising the financial impact that Brexit Bill have. We can

:40:11. > :40:15.see them recognising the impact it will have on jobs. And we will see

:40:16. > :40:23.real changes and real recognition of this Government taking into account

:40:24. > :40:29.the effects of Brexit. During the Coalition Government,

:40:30. > :40:36.fiscal policy was unnecessarily tight. And our constituents have

:40:37. > :40:44.paid the price on that. We have now moved to a position in seven years

:40:45. > :40:50.where, despite the Prime Minister in her election campaign saying that

:40:51. > :40:54.taxes will be lower under a Conservative Government is

:40:55. > :40:57.re-elected, not actually seeing lower than what. Secondly, this

:40:58. > :41:02.year, on projections, which might not come to pass, of course,

:41:03. > :41:06.taxation as a percentage of national income is likely this year to be the

:41:07. > :41:13.highest in peace time in the United Kingdom. That is not exactly a low

:41:14. > :41:20.tax Government. And I think trying to pretend that one is, as a

:41:21. > :41:24.Conservative Party Government, is unfortunate in a general election.

:41:25. > :41:31.And it also leads to what I regard as an unfortunate trend on both

:41:32. > :41:37.sides of this House to talk about taxation as if it were an evil in

:41:38. > :41:41.and of itself. Taxation pays for the public services which all our

:41:42. > :41:47.constituents enjoy. And I have no problem with taxation if it is fair

:41:48. > :41:54.and sustainable, as the minister called about in her opening remarks.

:41:55. > :41:58.And if, as she also talked about, we can't down on tax avoidance. I only

:41:59. > :42:03.wish that this outgoing Government and to ever incoming Government were

:42:04. > :42:09.a little more forceful in public register of beneficial ownership of

:42:10. > :42:16.offshore held accounts and funds, particularly since about half of

:42:17. > :42:20.that amount, as far as we can tell, around the world, is held in British

:42:21. > :42:25.Overseas Territories. So the United Kingdom has a huge role to play. I

:42:26. > :42:29.salute the role that the Conservative Government has thus far

:42:30. > :42:33.played in this, but there is father to go and I hope that on the 9th of

:42:34. > :42:40.June, we will have an incoming Labour Government which will take it

:42:41. > :42:44.a lot further. I have done and seven at eight Finance bills of my time in

:42:45. > :42:48.this House, and some honourable members know, this will be my final

:42:49. > :42:51.speech to the House because I am retiring at the general election and

:42:52. > :42:57.I will be putting my feet up in the garden and watching the rest of you

:42:58. > :43:01.working. But I think that one has to try, as the right honourable member

:43:02. > :43:04.for Chichester, who has rightly been praised earlier in the debate,

:43:05. > :43:10.always tried, to be realistic about what is going on. And what is going

:43:11. > :43:14.on is that under the Coalition Government and the Conservative

:43:15. > :43:24.Government in the past two years, inequality of income has fallen.

:43:25. > :43:31.That is true. Unemployment has fallen fantastically. In round

:43:32. > :43:38.terms, employment is up by 2.75 million. That is a fantastic

:43:39. > :43:41.achievement. About one in five of those new jobs is a zero hours

:43:42. > :43:45.contracts and not all zero hours contracts are decried by those who

:43:46. > :43:54.have them. The proportion of workers who are working part-time in that

:43:55. > :43:58.seven years has hardly changed. There will be some who are working

:43:59. > :44:03.part-time and would prefer to work full-time, but many of those who are

:44:04. > :44:07.working part-time, including within that 2.75 million more jobs, choose

:44:08. > :44:15.to do so. And they should have the flexibility to do so. But that

:44:16. > :44:24.achievement on falling unemployment has been bought on a sea of debt.

:44:25. > :44:31.The national debt in the last seven years has gone up by almost 70%. And

:44:32. > :44:39.enormous amount in peace time in seven years. It is an enormous

:44:40. > :44:43.amount. And the deficit, I have to say, to this outgoing Government, it

:44:44. > :44:52.is a bit like Gordon Brown's old and real. -- golden rule. It was a car

:44:53. > :44:56.that kept getting kicked down the road, that Government borrowing

:44:57. > :45:01.should, on the economic cycle, be balanced. And then Gordon Brown, as

:45:02. > :45:06.Chancellor and Prime Minister, kept redefining what the economic cycle

:45:07. > :45:11.was. To try to make the figures work-out. With this Government and

:45:12. > :45:15.the previous Government, the annual deficit, which is still enormous, is

:45:16. > :45:21.always going to be sorted out in five years' time. Well, I am not

:45:22. > :45:27.sure how many of my constituents believe that any more. Particularly

:45:28. > :45:34.in a year when I think I am right in saying that the Government of

:45:35. > :45:39.Greece, through measures which I think, certainly many on this site

:45:40. > :45:43.allows adding Government benches Woodside Dommett site to painful and

:45:44. > :45:50.disruptive and unacceptable, but based upon those measures, forced

:45:51. > :45:53.upon them by the International Monetary Fund, will record surplus

:45:54. > :45:58.on its current account. Here we have on the wealthy UK, with the

:45:59. > :46:00.Government which, itself and predecessors for five years before,

:46:01. > :46:05.were saying, we want to get the deficit down and we will get it down

:46:06. > :46:12.in five years. And it is with another five years.

:46:13. > :46:17.They are doing far, far worse than the Government of Greece that is an

:46:18. > :46:23.indictment of seven of Conservative government. My constituents have had

:46:24. > :46:36.the pain, but they have not had the game. Inequality of wealth, in has

:46:37. > :46:40.increased markedly. And that is not only something which I, as a

:46:41. > :46:47.socialist finds distasteful, but I as a citizen of the United Kingdom

:46:48. > :46:52.worry about because we did it that they face ID becomes too an equal

:46:53. > :46:57.then there will be, or there is a severe risk of social fractures that

:46:58. > :47:03.if a society becomes to any goal. We see it in the housing market where

:47:04. > :47:10.we have a situation where many people will never have affordable

:47:11. > :47:17.housing. They will never have it. And those who do have affordable

:47:18. > :47:22.housing will often in the next generation get it because parents or

:47:23. > :47:26.grandparents did, and those individuals inherited a deposit or

:47:27. > :47:34.house from earlier generations in their family who owned property.

:47:35. > :47:39.That trend will lock in inequality in our society. Inequality which

:47:40. > :47:46.both sides of this house professed to decry and wish to address. And it

:47:47. > :47:51.will be logged into the housing market because, in the last ten

:47:52. > :47:56.years in particular in the United Kingdom, we have not built or

:47:57. > :48:03.created nearly enough housing units, and it has huge, huge social

:48:04. > :48:08.implications when that trend creates rigid inequality which will not be

:48:09. > :48:16.possible to overcome, whatever we do on schooling in this country. It

:48:17. > :48:22.will be locked in. Do you inherited own payments on your house, or don't

:48:23. > :48:26.you? That is very sad for our society. A society in which average

:48:27. > :48:32.earnings are still below what they were nine years ago, before the

:48:33. > :48:37.crash. That's average earnings. Average incomes have risen, because

:48:38. > :48:42.of the triple lock. That average earnings are still below. That is

:48:43. > :48:45.not all the Government's fault. They have made good steps, I don't think

:48:46. > :48:54.they've gone far enough on the national living wage, they are

:48:55. > :49:00.converts. They opposed the minimum wage on principle in 1998, but this

:49:01. > :49:06.government has gone a lot further than I and many on these benches

:49:07. > :49:10.expected it to do in terms of a statutory minimum wage. I don't

:49:11. > :49:13.think they've gone far enough and I think that's bad for social

:49:14. > :49:22.cohesion, poverty in this country and economic growth. In a capitalist

:49:23. > :49:27.society one way to drive productivity, one way, is higher

:49:28. > :49:33.wages. So that there is a substitution of capital for Labour

:49:34. > :49:38.and when you substitute capital for Labour, very often, you get higher

:49:39. > :49:43.productivity. Overall. Not in every case, but very often. But we do need

:49:44. > :49:48.to do more. The Government has made some steps in this regard. We don't

:49:49. > :49:56.think they've gone nearly far enough. As related to technical

:49:57. > :50:00.training and upscaling the workforce, I have to say the

:50:01. > :50:04.Conservative benches have been very late to that party. We have a target

:50:05. > :50:10.of 3 million apprentices which may or may not be met. One fears it may

:50:11. > :50:14.be met through redefining courses and training schemes which many of

:50:15. > :50:17.us would not regard as apprenticeships to call them

:50:18. > :50:22.apprenticeships and make figures work. That is always a danger. But

:50:23. > :50:26.it is laudable that the Government wants to take policies from Labour

:50:27. > :50:32.and increase the level of training and technical training in our

:50:33. > :50:36.economy. This finance bill will help, somewhat, in that regard. But

:50:37. > :50:40.what we've also had in the last seven years, and it's not addressed

:50:41. > :50:45.in this bill, is insufficient infrastructure spending and we have

:50:46. > :50:49.had and are having, what I regard, as inappropriate infrastructure

:50:50. > :50:56.spending. We are going to be spending less, as I hope, about ?60

:50:57. > :51:00.billion or more on the a jest to railway line which is a very bad

:51:01. > :51:10.allocation of capital for transport spending. -- HS2. We are on course

:51:11. > :51:14.to be spending too much higher literacy prizes, indirectly, money

:51:15. > :51:19.on Hinkley point see nuclear director which will be built by a

:51:20. > :51:23.bankrupt French company, only still going because it's been bailed out

:51:24. > :51:28.by its state owners, the French government. Using a design which has

:51:29. > :51:32.never worked anywhere in the world, being tried in Finland and in

:51:33. > :51:38.Normandy and those project are years overdue. And use over budget.

:51:39. > :51:44.Perhaps, massively overbudget, I should say. But is this government's

:51:45. > :51:48.approach to English are just spending. We on these benches

:51:49. > :51:53.recognise that they have started to borrow some of our policies in terms

:51:54. > :51:58.of energies and domestic energy caps. But they have not gone far

:51:59. > :52:03.enough on integer to spending and have somewhat lost their way on some

:52:04. > :52:09.of these big projects, I think. The final issue, for me, it was

:52:10. > :52:15.mentioned by the honourable member for Aberdeen North, when she spoke

:52:16. > :52:20.earlier today, Brexit. It looms over all of us and all out residuals but

:52:21. > :52:25.doesn't quite loom over this finance bill which is somewhat surprising.

:52:26. > :52:32.The Treasury before the referendum last summer was very keen to put our

:52:33. > :52:37.projections of out what Treasury officials thought would be the

:52:38. > :52:41.consequences of a Brexit wrote in that referendum. I thought that was

:52:42. > :52:48.an entirely appropriate use of Treasury resources government whose

:52:49. > :52:53.official was to support the United Kingdom remaining in the European

:52:54. > :52:59.Union. We had all those projections, but since the 23rd of June last

:53:00. > :53:04.year, it seems to me to have gone somewhat quiet in that regard. Now,

:53:05. > :53:12.I appreciate that the United Kingdom is still come in round terms, 100

:53:13. > :53:16.weeks away from leaving the EU. That makes it more difficult to make

:53:17. > :53:22.projections as to what is likely to happen with our economy, partly

:53:23. > :53:29.because we don't know what the Brexit package will be. That, there

:53:30. > :53:35.are some signs of concern in the markets about Brexit. Which I don't

:53:36. > :53:40.think are adequately reflected in the financial measures proposed by

:53:41. > :53:46.the outgoing government and measures proposed in this finance bill. And I

:53:47. > :53:51.really think the Government, if it were, unfortunately, to my view, to

:53:52. > :53:55.be re-elected, it ought to get its act together a bit more and more

:53:56. > :54:00.publicly about where it sees the economy going with Brexit. I

:54:01. > :54:04.appreciate, as I said, that cannot be done easily when we don't know

:54:05. > :54:10.what the final package will look like, whether it will be a hard

:54:11. > :54:14.Brexit with no package at all. But to reassure the markets, and to

:54:15. > :54:19.reassure our constituents, whichever side they might have been an the

:54:20. > :54:24.referendum vote, the Government of the day, from the 9th of June, does

:54:25. > :54:31.have to be, I think, rather more open about the direction of travel

:54:32. > :54:36.and what it is doing to be proactive, rather than reactive to

:54:37. > :54:41.the whole process of Brexit and its effects upon the economy. Whichever

:54:42. > :54:46.colour of government it is, because without that greater clarity, the

:54:47. > :54:52.markets will be more concerned and more spooked, and our constituents

:54:53. > :54:58.will be more concerned and more worried than they need to be. Of

:54:59. > :55:03.course, nobody has a crystal ball. But a bit of projection forwards,

:55:04. > :55:11.more so than has been the case I think would be helpful to all of us.

:55:12. > :55:15.Here here. The question is that the bill be now read the third time, As

:55:16. > :55:28.many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'.. The

:55:29. > :55:31.ayes have it. The ayes habit. Health service medical supplies, cost bill,

:55:32. > :55:38.lords, consideration of Lord's message. The motion to be taken is

:55:39. > :55:43.to disagree to the Lords amendment three B with which it will

:55:44. > :55:49.consider... Of which we will consider government amendments a and

:55:50. > :55:56.B in blue. I call the Minister to move to disagree with Lords

:55:57. > :56:00.amendment, three B. Mr Philip Dunn. Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move

:56:01. > :56:05.that this house disagrees with the Lords in their amendment three B.

:56:06. > :56:12.But proposes, instead, amendments a and B in lieu. When we last debated

:56:13. > :56:17.this bill I reminded the house of its importance and I don't post to

:56:18. > :56:21.go over that ground once again. Save for noting the three primary

:56:22. > :56:25.purposes of the bill which are, firstly to give powers to align

:56:26. > :56:30.broadly on a statutory scheme with the controlled prices of branded

:56:31. > :56:34.medicines with voluntary schemes and introducing the possibility of a

:56:35. > :56:38.payment percentage for the statutory scheme. This would deliver ?90

:56:39. > :56:46.million funding for the NHS every year. Secondly, it gives us stronger

:56:47. > :56:50.powers to set prices of an branded generic medicines where companies

:56:51. > :56:56.charge and justifiably high prices in the absence of competition.

:56:57. > :56:59.Thirdly, it is quiet companies in the supply chain for medicines,

:57:00. > :57:05.medical supplies and other related products to provide as with

:57:06. > :57:09.information. We intend to use this information to operate our pricing

:57:10. > :57:13.schemes and reimburse community pharmacies for the products they

:57:14. > :57:19.dispense. And assure ourselves that the supply chain, or specific

:57:20. > :57:24.products, provide good value for money for the NHS and the taxpayer.

:57:25. > :57:30.During the passage of the bill in the other place, we agreed with 23

:57:31. > :57:36.amendments, made by their Lordships, and those we accept have made this a

:57:37. > :57:40.better bill. We were Jack did just a single amendment. And despite the

:57:41. > :57:45.strengths of our art and the other place has now made amendment three

:57:46. > :57:50.B. Which, to all intents and purposes has the same effect as the

:57:51. > :57:54.original amendment. It would introduce a duty on the Government

:57:55. > :57:59.to exercise its functions to control costs and take into account the need

:58:00. > :58:02.to promote and support a growing life sciences sector. To ensure

:58:03. > :58:10.patients have access to new medicines. As I explained previously

:58:11. > :58:14.to this house, this amendment, which is no different in fact, would

:58:15. > :58:18.undermine one of the core purposes of the bill to enable the Government

:58:19. > :58:22.to put effective cost controls in place. In our view this could

:58:23. > :58:26.encourage companies to bring legal challenges where the cost controls

:58:27. > :58:30.have not, in themselves, promoted growth in the life sciences

:58:31. > :58:35.industry. This could significantly hinder the Government's ability to

:58:36. > :58:39.exercise its powers effectively to control cost. This would have a

:58:40. > :58:48.particularly detrimental effect if the Government were to take action

:58:49. > :58:51.to control the price of an unbranded generic medicine, where it is clear

:58:52. > :58:58.that the company is exploiting the NHS. There was cross-party agreement

:58:59. > :59:02.when we debated the bill. The Government might be challenged not

:59:03. > :59:06.because the cost was inappropriate but the action does not promote the

:59:07. > :59:12.life sciences sector. This would, of course, could be the right thing for

:59:13. > :59:17.the NHS, for patients and taxpayers. The powers in the Bill that enabled

:59:18. > :59:23.this kind of action have received universal, cross-party support in

:59:24. > :59:27.both houses. So the debate on this issue in the other place we have

:59:28. > :59:31.clarified they did not intend to undermine the core purpose of the

:59:32. > :59:35.bill. Rather, the intent was to ensure there is a mechanism laid out

:59:36. > :59:39.on the face of the Bill to ensure the Government causes two floors did

:59:40. > :59:45.not reflect on the impact of price control schemes in terms of impact

:59:46. > :59:51.on the industry. And access to cost-effective medicines. So with

:59:52. > :59:55.this clarity the Government is now putting forward an amendment in lieu

:59:56. > :59:58.of Lord's's amendment CBE, which will achieve that intent without

:59:59. > :00:06.undermining the core purpose of the bill. Consultation requirements are

:00:07. > :00:12.already set out in section 236 of the NHS act. Riots implementation of

:00:13. > :00:17.any new Star Trek price control implements and is. This amendment,

:00:18. > :00:24.-- statutory price control implements. They must be consulted

:00:25. > :00:30.on before proceeding with a new statutory scheme. These are,

:00:31. > :00:36.firstly, economic consequences for the life sciences industry in the

:00:37. > :00:41.UK. Secondly, consequences for the economy. And thirdly, consequences

:00:42. > :00:46.for patients, to whom health service medicines are to be supplied and for

:00:47. > :00:49.other health service patients. The acquirement is framed in this way in

:00:50. > :00:53.order not only to consider the economic consequences for the life

:00:54. > :00:57.sciences industry, and for patients who may benefit from new medicines,

:00:58. > :01:03.but also to balance these factors against widely considerations. I am

:01:04. > :01:07.sure the house will agree that while a thriving life sciences industry

:01:08. > :01:12.under access to new medicines are highly desirable, this must not come

:01:13. > :01:14.at any cost. It is the Government responsibility to achieve the right

:01:15. > :01:20.balance and to be held accountable it.

:01:21. > :01:23.As with all consultations, Government must give all responses

:01:24. > :01:28.due consideration before finalising policy. Setting these particular

:01:29. > :01:31.requirements out in the face of the bill does not limit the scope of

:01:32. > :01:35.consultation, offering both Government and consultees the

:01:36. > :01:41.opportunity to give all relevant issues proper consideration. The

:01:42. > :01:45.amendment is specific to section 260 three. That is to say, the powers to

:01:46. > :01:50.put a statutory scheme in place for medicines. Where action is being

:01:51. > :01:53.taken against a specific incident the Mac incidence of high prices for

:01:54. > :01:56.individual medicine, it would not be appropriate for this to be subject

:01:57. > :02:03.to such wide-ranging consultation. In these cases, the NHS Act already

:02:04. > :02:07.requires consultation with the appropriate industry body or bodies,

:02:08. > :02:15.prior to exercise of his powers. With this amendment, the Government

:02:16. > :02:18.has, we believe, address the substance of the concerns raised by

:02:19. > :02:24.the honourable gentleman at each stage, to his credit, for

:02:25. > :02:27.consistency, in consideration of this bill. And by members and the

:02:28. > :02:32.other place. I hope people therefore welcome this amendment am and I beg

:02:33. > :02:43.to move. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lord's in

:02:44. > :02:46.the amendment, 3B. I would like to thank the Minister

:02:47. > :02:48.for approaching the outstanding areas of concern in such a

:02:49. > :02:56.conciliatory manner, which has allowed us to approach this

:02:57. > :03:00.amendment the Government has brought forward today. We are keen that the

:03:01. > :03:03.NHS gains better control of the costs of medicines and close some of

:03:04. > :03:06.the loopholes in the system that has been subjected blatant abuses in

:03:07. > :03:11.recent years, as we have discussed in the passage of this bill. The

:03:12. > :03:14.negotiations on the amendment where, by their nature, speedy but no less

:03:15. > :03:21.effective. I doubt we will be so fortunate with Brexit discussions on

:03:22. > :03:24.the future. Jeremy Clarkson of the bill, we have heard very clearly the

:03:25. > :03:30.current state of affairs which does not serve the Asians or taxpayer as

:03:31. > :03:42.well as they could. -- during the discussion of the bill.

:03:43. > :03:47.Where that to be applied to health spending across the board, many of

:03:48. > :03:51.the exchanges we have had across the dispatch box in the last 12 months

:03:52. > :03:55.of soul could have been a little less lively. Despite this increase

:03:56. > :03:59.in spending, the Minister will be aware that there are serious

:04:00. > :04:02.concerns still being raised about the availability of new treatments.

:04:03. > :04:09.I would like to take a few moments to read some of the specific

:04:10. > :04:13.concerns patients have had. And the budget impact test that could see

:04:14. > :04:15.introduction is of treatments that cost ?20 million a year delayed by

:04:16. > :04:19.three years. We are still concerned that some patients with certain

:04:20. > :04:24.conditions will be this report only affected by this. One condition,

:04:25. > :04:29.type two diabetes, there are several drugs available for it that cost the

:04:30. > :04:34.NHS more than ?20 million a year due to the patient number involved.

:04:35. > :04:42.There is one that costs ?21 million, and other cost 41 million, another

:04:43. > :04:49.?77 million and lastly another that ?70 million. Can the Government tell

:04:50. > :04:55.us and estimated number of patients that could be affected by the

:04:56. > :05:00.introduction of the impact test? Can the Minister confirm this will

:05:01. > :05:04.impact on patients' right to treatment under the NHS

:05:05. > :05:13.Constitution? We have seen the 18 week consultation effectively

:05:14. > :05:17.abandoned. Also of concern is the fact that this could apply to end of

:05:18. > :05:21.life drugs. For those patients, there is no time to waste. What can

:05:22. > :05:27.the Minister do to ensure that valuable time is not wasted when

:05:28. > :05:30.drugs at the impact tests for those patients? Coming back to the

:05:31. > :05:35.amendment, we are content that it takes us to more or less the place

:05:36. > :05:40.that previous amendments did without having the effect of binding the

:05:41. > :05:43.hand of the Government totally. We welcome concessions made, which

:05:44. > :05:49.means we support this new amendment. By requiring the Secretary of State

:05:50. > :05:51.to consult on enacting any powers and dumber on the life sciences

:05:52. > :05:56.sector and most importantly, patients, we have an extra safeguard

:05:57. > :06:00.that we hope will ensure the right balance is struck between

:06:01. > :06:03.controlling cost, promoting life sciences industry and making sure

:06:04. > :06:12.patients get access to new treatments as quickly as possible.

:06:13. > :06:17.We consider it just as important for the other two areas to be getting

:06:18. > :06:20.into a coma and other new rules are developed. This is important because

:06:21. > :06:30.at the moment we have significance in terms -- significant concerns

:06:31. > :06:33.about the stifling of investment. On that, the imminent departure of

:06:34. > :06:37.European medicines agency from these shores is against a worrying

:06:38. > :06:41.backdrop of investment falling in the sector by 20% in just over three

:06:42. > :06:45.years. And the reduction in investment is not just about the

:06:46. > :06:49.impact this has on growth and jobs in the country. It also has a

:06:50. > :06:59.profound impact on patients as well. International comparisons of health

:07:00. > :07:04.technology assessment report in May showed cancer patients are missing

:07:05. > :07:07.out on innovative treatments being made available. For every 100

:07:08. > :07:11.European patients who can access new medicines in the first year

:07:12. > :07:15.available, just 15 UK patients had this same access. This is clearly

:07:16. > :07:19.something we need to reverse. We hope this amendment will go some way

:07:20. > :07:21.to reversing that trend in for a consultation process that requires

:07:22. > :07:25.the Secretary of State to specifically consider these issues

:07:26. > :07:29.will mean that if the consultation is genuine, if it is open-minded and

:07:30. > :07:33.involves a complete conscientious and considered examination of the

:07:34. > :07:37.responses to it, then we will hopefully see a system that protects

:07:38. > :07:44.and supports our industry. But, most importantly, reaffirms one of the

:07:45. > :07:50.founding principles of the NHS. Treatment should be free to all at

:07:51. > :07:55.the point of use. That is something we are all keen to defend. In

:07:56. > :07:57.conclusion, we will support this amendment and keep a close eye on

:07:58. > :08:01.the many issues that we have raised today which I'm not going to go away

:08:02. > :08:10.just because there is now a general election. -- which are not going to

:08:11. > :08:15.go away. This will be my last appearance in the chamber before the

:08:16. > :08:22.general election. I would like to thank you for your courtesy in this

:08:23. > :08:27.place. Behind-the-scenes, and offer what goes on to make sure these

:08:28. > :08:32.debates have a coherence and fluency that might appear effortless to the

:08:33. > :08:37.outside work. We can assure them, it most definitely is not. I have found

:08:38. > :08:41.everyone behind-the-scenes yet to be very helpful and well, and it has

:08:42. > :08:44.made it easy for me to do my job. On that note, I will finish by saying

:08:45. > :08:50.that this has been much more than a job to me. It has been a privilege

:08:51. > :08:53.of my life to represent the de Boer Ellesmere Port and felt that at the

:08:54. > :08:59.election, I have the opportunity to continue to do that. -- represent

:09:00. > :09:03.the people of Ellesmere Port. I thank for his extreme kind words and

:09:04. > :09:10.courtesy, which he always shows at the dispatch box and in the chamber.

:09:11. > :09:14.Thank you very much, Madam Deputy is bigger. Like the honourable member

:09:15. > :09:22.for Ellesmere Port, obviously this will be my last time speaking in the

:09:23. > :09:25.chamber before dissolution. As a newbie, I would like to be tribute

:09:26. > :09:30.to the staff of the House have made it much easier for us to come in

:09:31. > :09:34.here than we had expected. I am also glad that it is on a bill that, in

:09:35. > :09:38.actual fact, despite some abroad is agreement is, we have worked cross

:09:39. > :09:44.party across the chamber to actually do a piece of work that we all

:09:45. > :09:47.agreed needed to be done. I'll is a welcome the Government's amendment,

:09:48. > :09:52.although I would have to say I would have laid out the three sections the

:09:53. > :09:57.other way round. Because actually the whole point of the NHS and the

:09:58. > :10:01.reason we're discussing it is the number one importance being patient

:10:02. > :10:08.access. I would not have put them third, I would put them first.

:10:09. > :10:10.Because I think it is really an issue for patients and it really is

:10:11. > :10:16.a fear for patients not getting access to drugs. As was mentioned by

:10:17. > :10:22.your noble member from the Labour front bench is, we have a

:10:23. > :10:26.significant delay that is measurable in comparison to other countries. --

:10:27. > :10:38.by the honourable member. If certain types of cancer appeared, --

:10:39. > :10:43.compared, we can see that some... Where we fall down is with people

:10:44. > :10:50.with advanced disease and that is why we must not delay. In regards to

:10:51. > :10:53.the budget assessment, the concern I have is that we will interact with

:10:54. > :10:58.the loss of the European Medicines Agency. I am not talking about

:10:59. > :11:01.losing their agency itself, but not being part of the scheme. We know

:11:02. > :11:07.that there is a danger that drugs are being presented for licensing in

:11:08. > :11:09.the United Kingdom at a later date than they currently are for the US

:11:10. > :11:18.and the EU as being major markets. It is likely that we would be due --

:11:19. > :11:21.be behind Japan. If we are seen as a hostile market, and I don't mean we

:11:22. > :11:25.should simply hand over any amount of money, but if we are seen as a

:11:26. > :11:29.hostile market where there is an expected delay of expensive drugs

:11:30. > :11:36.for three years, there is a danger that international pharmaceuticals

:11:37. > :11:39.will say, do you know what, we will license everywhere else and then

:11:40. > :11:43.come back to the UK in a few years. That means our patients would have a

:11:44. > :11:47.significantly delayed access. We need to think about how that feeds

:11:48. > :11:51.in to things like trials and research. That is when it does feed

:11:52. > :11:55.into the life sciences system. Because if we are not using what is

:11:56. > :12:01.considered the gold standard drug at the time of the new international

:12:02. > :12:11.trial, we will not be able to take part in the comparison of that gold

:12:12. > :12:14.standard with a new drug. The UK has led the EU research network, the

:12:15. > :12:19.biggest in the world. And we have been major players in that. It is

:12:20. > :12:24.important that we realise how building in this delay from NHS

:12:25. > :12:31.England could undermine that. Surely it should be part of the Nice

:12:32. > :12:34.process. It should be clear to pharmaceuticals that when they come

:12:35. > :12:37.as a drug, the prize, what process they have to go through, what

:12:38. > :12:40.evidence they will have to bring forward and how they will have to

:12:41. > :12:47.negotiate and bring forward a price. And I fear that we will have a delay

:12:48. > :12:51.in drugs being licensed. That will affect us in Scotland, even though

:12:52. > :12:55.Nice decisions do not apply to us. If a drug is simply not licensed

:12:56. > :13:02.here, it will be irrelevant for the Scottish Medicines Consortium and it

:13:03. > :13:06.might not choose to fund it because it is an unlicensed medicine. I

:13:07. > :13:17.think we need to be looking at how the loss of the European Medicines

:13:18. > :13:24.Agency Dental Will Work With This. -- will work with this. The drugs it

:13:25. > :13:29.will hit his new cancer drugs because they are expensive. It will

:13:30. > :13:36.hit drugs for new diseases that the MA have led on because they are

:13:37. > :13:43.bespoke and inevitably and -- expensive. But if someone came up

:13:44. > :13:48.with a fabulous cure for dementia, the budget assessment would be

:13:49. > :13:51.triggered. I thank her for giving way. I agree with her about what she

:13:52. > :13:55.says about the European drugs agency. I have had lots of letters

:13:56. > :14:02.regarding that from people who are concerned about it. The results also

:14:03. > :14:08.the delay in the Government actually being a price. I sometimes think

:14:09. > :14:11.that these drugs companies take the Government to the cleaners. I thank

:14:12. > :14:15.him for his intervention but that is obviously why the Government are

:14:16. > :14:19.trying to have this bill, to have a degree of control and do not have

:14:20. > :14:23.just run away drugs costs. Of course we agree with that and that is in

:14:24. > :14:29.the bill. But it is trying to have that there is a predictable system

:14:30. > :14:32.of licensing in the UK where a pharmaceutical company will know

:14:33. > :14:39.what they have to do and then to the table. -- bring. It might mean that

:14:40. > :14:44.there has to be more flexible digital only Nice process. But to go

:14:45. > :14:48.through the Nice process and be defined as a cost-effective drug and

:14:49. > :14:56.then hit another barrier that is less predictable, that is not good.

:14:57. > :14:59.The danger of this is that this will affect us in Scotland just as much

:15:00. > :15:04.as in England, regardless of what the drug funding decisions would be,

:15:05. > :15:07.because licensing is reserved. The Government need to take that into

:15:08. > :15:12.account because, as I say, in the order that it is in here, patients

:15:13. > :15:20.are thought whereas I think patients come first. -- patients are third.

:15:21. > :15:23.Thank you. I had not intended to make a significant response in light

:15:24. > :15:28.of this debate but I cannot resist the opportunity, as other colleagues

:15:29. > :15:32.are spoken have taken advantage of the fact that it is their final

:15:33. > :15:35.appearance in this Parliament at the dispatch box, speaking for their

:15:36. > :15:42.parties. So I cannot really resist the opportunity to join that

:15:43. > :15:44.particular club. Underwood like to follow the honourable gentleman in

:15:45. > :15:49.thanking Members of the House for the work that they did. -- I would

:15:50. > :15:53.like. Both in committee and on the floor of the House, in passage of

:15:54. > :15:54.this bill. I would like to congratulate the honourable

:15:55. > :16:02.gentleman, whose peaks of the opposition and Elmden -- Ellesmere

:16:03. > :16:05.Port, who has given us a valedictory perhaps suggesting he will not be

:16:06. > :16:08.returning to this House. In some respects I would welcome mat and in

:16:09. > :16:12.others I would regret it because he has been a very cooperative

:16:13. > :16:16.colleague in his bill. I would also like to place unrecognised thanks to

:16:17. > :16:17.the honourable lady to Central Ayrshire for her contributions to

:16:18. > :16:26.the bill. I would like to thank my

:16:27. > :16:30.Parliamentary Private sector who has been a stalwart supporter and the

:16:31. > :16:35.departmental whip who has joined as in his place today for the work he's

:16:36. > :16:46.done to work the Department of Health, not always the smoothest

:16:47. > :16:49.ride for government whips. But in response to the comments made by the

:16:50. > :16:57.honourable gentleman on the budget impact tests. I think it was a night

:16:58. > :17:01.tried when his challenge for me to identify whether certain specific

:17:02. > :17:07.drugs would be caught by this test or not, and what I can say, of

:17:08. > :17:09.course, is that this applies for new drugs, drugs already licensed and on

:17:10. > :17:15.the list which won't because by the test because they are already

:17:16. > :17:18.licensed and in use. The intent which came through the consultation

:17:19. > :17:24.which concluded in January was that it shouldn't be seen as a threshold

:17:25. > :17:28.which would have a direct impact on the applicability of these drugs. It

:17:29. > :17:34.was designed to provide an opportunity for renegotiating scope

:17:35. > :17:40.for the NHS to try and get a better price when a drug which would have a

:17:41. > :17:45.significant cost to the NHS was in prospect. So although the honourable

:17:46. > :17:51.lady is concerned about the delay of the impact of this bill, and the

:17:52. > :17:55.delay from the masts of the DMA. We don't see this impacting in quite

:17:56. > :18:00.the way she does. We think it will impact in one in five new medicines

:18:01. > :18:05.being brought forward for use in this country. We have, as we've

:18:06. > :18:10.said, on repeated occasions a strong desire to see a vibrant life

:18:11. > :18:13.sciences industry in this country. They have been significant

:18:14. > :18:18.investments in this country since the referendum on the 23rd of June,

:18:19. > :18:27.and with this bill in prospect, so we don't have quite the same fears

:18:28. > :18:30.as have been expressed today. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:18:31. > :18:36.before I beg to move this amendment I would like to say to a colleague

:18:37. > :18:40.from the opposite benches who is here on the previous debate, and

:18:41. > :18:44.served on the committee, the member for Wolverhampton South West has had

:18:45. > :18:51.a distinguished career in this house, and has served on finance

:18:52. > :18:55.bills in the past with me, ad nauseam, and I was therefore

:18:56. > :18:59.pleased, but some trepidation to see him put himself forward to serve on

:19:00. > :19:06.the bill committee here, and he lived up to all expectations. I wish

:19:07. > :19:11.him well. The question is that this has disagrees with the Lords in

:19:12. > :19:18.their amendment three B. Decision-macro. The ayes habit. With

:19:19. > :19:23.the leave of the house we will take government amendments a and B in

:19:24. > :19:30.lieu of Lords Amendments three B together. The Minister to move

:19:31. > :19:33.formally. The decision is that the amendments be made, as many of the

:19:34. > :19:45.opinions they are eyed, of the country no? The ayes habit.

:19:46. > :19:56.Do we take them all separately, or... ? With the leave of the house

:19:57. > :20:01.I will take motions number four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,

:20:02. > :20:11.in 11 together. The Minister to move. The question is as on the

:20:12. > :20:13.order papers. Of the opinions they are icon on the country no. The ayes

:20:14. > :20:29.habit. The petition of residents of Glasgow

:20:30. > :20:35.North West. A similar petition has been signed by 640 people and a

:20:36. > :20:40.further 446 people online. It declares that Post Office Limited

:20:41. > :20:45.has announced that the Post Office on an avenue in Drumchapel is under

:20:46. > :20:49.threat of closure. This provides a vital service for many local

:20:50. > :20:54.residents, the last of which would have a detrimental effect and the

:20:55. > :20:59.impact on the wider community in Drumchapel as well as causing

:21:00. > :21:03.considerable concern for staff. The opportunity to franchise the current

:21:04. > :21:06.office, this could endanger the ongoing provision of services and

:21:07. > :21:15.jobs in the local area as well as the franchise's current, location in

:21:16. > :21:19.the heart of the community. It is noticeable just how busy counters

:21:20. > :21:24.aren't how strongly the community feels about the proposal. The

:21:25. > :21:27.petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the

:21:28. > :21:31.Government to call upon the post office to halt any plans to close

:21:32. > :21:36.the Drumchapel Post Office and ensure that these services and jobs

:21:37. > :21:53.can be maintained and protected in the local area.

:21:54. > :22:10.Petition, Drumchapel. This. I'd like to put forward a petition against

:22:11. > :22:21.cuts in magazines receipt signed by 156 people, who signed online. We

:22:22. > :22:24.urge the Secretary of State for Education to reconsider the former

:22:25. > :22:26.to insurance that Calderdale schools do not lose out and no school

:22:27. > :22:56.receives less than 4800 per pupil. Mind you. Petition, school funding

:22:57. > :23:01.formulae in Calderdale. See Lucas. I rise to present a petition of

:23:02. > :23:06.residents of Wrexham who declared that the petition recognises the

:23:07. > :23:10.long military tradition of Wrexham in North Wales and its relationship

:23:11. > :23:14.with the Royal Welch Fusiliers and Royal Electrical and Mechanical

:23:15. > :23:19.Engineers and declare they are concerned about the pros all to move

:23:20. > :23:24.battalion headquarters from Wrexham to Bristol away from the area which

:23:25. > :23:28.as heard the British Army in Wales for so many years. The petitioners

:23:29. > :23:32.request of the House of Commons urged the Government to retain the

:23:33. > :23:33.current 101 Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers

:23:34. > :23:54.in Wrexham. Here, here. Definitely! Petition, Royal edge cool mechanical

:23:55. > :24:06.engineers at Hightown barracks, Wrexham. I rise to present the

:24:07. > :24:11.petition of residents in the constituency of Clwyd South, of

:24:12. > :24:14.which there are several hundred signatories based on the same

:24:15. > :24:20.petition as that of my honourable friend the member for Wrexham. Our

:24:21. > :24:25.deep concerns on this particular issue. The petitioners request that

:24:26. > :24:31.the House of Commons urges the Government to retain the current 101

:24:32. > :24:34.battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers in Wrexham.

:24:35. > :24:49.It's time the Government listened, Madam Deputy Speaker.

:24:50. > :24:58.Petition, the closure of a medical centre. Sorry, the Royal Electrical

:24:59. > :25:06.and Mechanical Engineers, Wrexham. I apologise, sorry. Bank you, Madam

:25:07. > :25:11.Deputy Speaker, I rise to present a petition signed by 421 residence in

:25:12. > :25:18.the red carpet assiduously. This declares that the decision to close

:25:19. > :25:22.the medical centre will leave over 4000 patients, many of whom are

:25:23. > :25:26.elderly, without a medical practice and require them to travel to a

:25:27. > :25:30.neighbouring village to register with a GP. Petitioners request the

:25:31. > :25:31.House of Commons to urge the Government to prevent the closure of

:25:32. > :25:52.the medical centre. So they should! Thanks, very much. Petition, the

:25:53. > :26:00.closure of a medical centre. Iain Murray. Bank you, I rise to present

:26:01. > :26:03.a petition signed by over 4000 residents of Edinburgh South, the

:26:04. > :26:06.petition declared that the Government has forced a

:26:07. > :26:09.transformation programme on the post office that has placed local

:26:10. > :26:16.branches in jeopardy. Following a report carried out it found that

:26:17. > :26:20.closures had been bad for customers, ranking franchises were slunk

:26:21. > :26:25.round-ups is across a range of indicators including queue times,

:26:26. > :26:29.service times, customer services and advice on products, disabled access

:26:30. > :26:33.and counter positions. The post office had already spent money

:26:34. > :26:37.refurbishing the offices and is now closing and franchising with ?5.9

:26:38. > :26:44.million spent since 2010 reversion 59 offices. They announced they will

:26:45. > :26:48.close in 2016, an average of ?100,000 per branch. Petitioners

:26:49. > :26:53.request the House of Commons urge the Government to suspend the

:26:54. > :26:57.closures and instead ensure the post office works with chrome branches

:26:58. > :27:08.including my morning office to make sure they are more efficient and

:27:09. > :27:18.profitable. -- my Morningside office. Bank you. Morningside. This

:27:19. > :27:34.franchising. I rise to present a petition of some

:27:35. > :27:37.1600 signatures of residents in my constituency. This petition declares

:27:38. > :27:43.that current government proposals for a fairer funding schools do not

:27:44. > :27:48.achieve their funding for pubertal in my constituency. They, and other

:27:49. > :27:52.pupils in the Cheshire East local authority area would be the lowest

:27:53. > :27:57.funded in the country. A level of funding local headteacher state

:27:58. > :28:00.would not enable them to provide the standard of education, facilities

:28:01. > :28:04.and support which are pupils deserve. I fully support this

:28:05. > :28:08.petition. And the petitioners therefore request that the House of

:28:09. > :28:12.Commons urges the Government to review the proposed funding from a

:28:13. > :28:15.to reflect a fairer level of funding for local schools to ensure that

:28:16. > :28:21.children in the local authority area of Cheshire East have the same

:28:22. > :28:39.opportunities as children in similar schools and other local authorities.

:28:40. > :28:44.Find you. There are funding for pubertal

:28:45. > :29:03.I also rise to present a petition on the fear funding for all schools of

:29:04. > :29:07.over 1500 residents of Cheshire East, including 900 from

:29:08. > :29:12.Macclesfield. Also including residence in the constituency of my

:29:13. > :29:15.honourable friend. Who, due to his ministerial role could not do so

:29:16. > :29:22.himself and asked me to do this on his behalf. I am pleased to see him

:29:23. > :29:25.in his behalf on the front bench. The petitioner has requested that

:29:26. > :29:29.the House of Commons urges the Government to review its funding

:29:30. > :29:33.formula for schools to ensure all children have access to properly

:29:34. > :29:35.funded education and invest in the future of our country. The

:29:36. > :29:53.petitioners therefore remain, etc. Petition, fairer funding formula for

:29:54. > :30:02.school pupils in the Macclesfield assiduously and Cheshire is local

:30:03. > :30:05.authority area. I beg to move that this house may now adjourn. The

:30:06. > :30:12.question is that this house do now adjourn. Andy Burnham. Buying queue,

:30:13. > :30:17.Madam Deputy Speaker. Through you, can I thank Mr Speaker for giving me

:30:18. > :30:24.this opportunity to make what will be my last speech in this house. I

:30:25. > :30:29.make it on the subject of contaminated blood, for a simple

:30:30. > :30:34.reason. Knowing what I know, and what I believe to be true, I

:30:35. > :30:40.wouldn't be able to live with myself if I left here without putting it on

:30:41. > :30:45.the official record. I will be honest, it is a speech made with a

:30:46. > :30:50.sense of guilt, in that I believe we are all here, all of us,

:30:51. > :30:56.collectively culpable of failing to act on evidence that is via before

:30:57. > :30:59.us, if only we cared to look. And, by extent from that, failing

:31:00. > :31:03.thousands of our fellow citizens who are the victims of, perhaps, the

:31:04. > :31:07.greatest untold and justice in the history of this country. --

:31:08. > :31:17.injustice. I first want to explain the genesis

:31:18. > :31:22.of this speech. Last year, the chair of the all-party group on

:31:23. > :31:24.contaminated blood, who has done absolutely outstanding work on

:31:25. > :31:31.behalf of those who have continued to struggle for truth and justice.

:31:32. > :31:39.She invited me to a meeting to discuss where next for the campaign.

:31:40. > :31:41.We have had the raising of expectations in the last parliament.

:31:42. > :31:46.A lot of goodwill on both sides of the House. A sense that people

:31:47. > :31:51.wanted to do something to help. That continued in the early part of this

:31:52. > :31:57.Parliament. It continued sense building that something was going to

:31:58. > :32:03.be done. But following the raising of expectations, victims now feel

:32:04. > :32:08.they have been led to the top of the hill, although to be let down once

:32:09. > :32:13.again. Whilst not doubting the sincerity with which it was made,

:32:14. > :32:19.the Government's failure to back the apology from the former Prime

:32:20. > :32:21.Minister at his last PMQs with substantial action has left people

:32:22. > :32:29.filling in the wilderness all over again. -- feeling. To try and find a

:32:30. > :32:33.way forward for them, my rubble friend asked me to Wheatley Group

:32:34. > :32:36.about whether my experience working on their Wells-Burr campaign might

:32:37. > :32:43.provide any insights that would be useful to those still campaigning

:32:44. > :32:55.today after all these years for justice. Suffered. -- my honourable

:32:56. > :33:01.friend asked me this year my experience. The one I thought about

:33:02. > :33:06.it, the more the parallels between the two, the contaminated blood

:33:07. > :33:11.scandal and Hillsborough, became clear to me.

:33:12. > :33:19.Both relate to the 1980s in both resulted from appalling negligence

:33:20. > :33:25.by public bodies. But also, in my view, as I will show today, both

:33:26. > :33:31.have been subject to an orchestrated campaign to prevent the truth from

:33:32. > :33:36.being told. It is that failure to give the victims the truth that

:33:37. > :33:41.compounds the injustice and suffering that they have

:33:42. > :33:45.experienced. Here is what I think is the crux of the problem.

:33:46. > :33:51.Contaminated blood has always been viewed through a financial Prism.

:33:52. > :33:56.That, in my view, sits the Government. It keeps the victims in

:33:57. > :34:02.a position of subservience. Forced to beg for scraps of help from the

:34:03. > :34:06.various funds that have been set up. Either way, let me make clear, I am

:34:07. > :34:11.talking about all governments. Not this particular Government, although

:34:12. > :34:15.I am talking about this Government, am talking about all governments. To

:34:16. > :34:21.the stand that the Government now anything much about this scandal,

:34:22. > :34:27.there is a vague sense that it is an argument about money. In my view, it

:34:28. > :34:33.is in the Government's interest to keep it there. They want to do that.

:34:34. > :34:37.Why? Just as with Hillsborough, if the great British bobby knew the

:34:38. > :34:44.real story here, there would be such a wave of public support coming in

:34:45. > :34:50.behind them that the demands for full and fair compensation simply

:34:51. > :34:57.would not be able to be resisted by the Government. -- the great British

:34:58. > :35:00.public. Such as with Hillsborough, when the truth was told, there was a

:35:01. > :35:04.huge groundswell of support and there had to be action. I believe

:35:05. > :35:08.this is why the Government is not what the truth to be told, because

:35:09. > :35:14.it knows that it would face little place to go in answering those

:35:15. > :35:17.calls. I have brought this debate to this House tonight, Madame David is

:35:18. > :35:24.bigger, to try and break through that impasse. -- Madam Deputy

:35:25. > :35:29.Speaker. I want to refocus everybody on giving victims what they have

:35:30. > :35:37.never had. The truth. From what I know, I believe that this scandal

:35:38. > :35:44.and thence to rekindle cover up on an industrial scale. -- amounts to a

:35:45. > :35:48.criminal cover-up. I want to present direct evidence to support that

:35:49. > :35:54.claim. There are hundreds of victims of this scandal who can point to

:35:55. > :36:00.evidence of missing pages from the medical notes. Crucial pages.

:36:01. > :36:05.Crucial pages missing from their medical notes. Of course, the

:36:06. > :36:13.authorities have an excuse in his cases. -- these. They can always say

:36:14. > :36:19.it was human error, they were lost, when they moved office, boxes were

:36:20. > :36:23.lost and misplaced. As implausible as that excuse is, they can get away

:36:24. > :36:34.with it, because how can you prove otherwise? Tonight, I want to focus

:36:35. > :36:39.on a small number of specific cases which, in my view, revealed

:36:40. > :36:46.deliberate, provable acts of cover-up. Which he give way?

:36:47. > :36:52.I'm very grateful and I would like to pay tribute to his outstanding

:36:53. > :36:56.work around the Hillsborough enquiry and what he achieved there. And

:36:57. > :37:01.obviously there are still more to do. I am so grateful on behalf of

:37:02. > :37:04.the APPG, right honourable friend was willing to share his experiences

:37:05. > :37:09.with us in relation to contaminated blood. I want to raise a point with

:37:10. > :37:18.my right honourable friend specifically, which was about the

:37:19. > :37:21.Lord Owen 's request for documents. When he was the Health Minister in

:37:22. > :37:26.the 1970s, he was told by officials that they had been destroyed. And

:37:27. > :37:28.the archer enquiry, which I am sure my right honourable friend will make

:37:29. > :37:32.reference to, found no reason why that should have happened. I know

:37:33. > :37:38.that my right honourable friend will go on to talk about specific cases

:37:39. > :37:43.of documents being lost or doctored in some way, but just from what

:37:44. > :37:47.happened to a Government minister, and this idea of an industrial scale

:37:48. > :37:53.of up, does my right honourable friend think that, actually, what

:37:54. > :37:58.happened there with Lord Owen and what he's about to describe with the

:37:59. > :38:03.particular individuals just shows how deep-seated this cover-up goes?

:38:04. > :38:12.I think that my honourable friend has put her finger on the point.

:38:13. > :38:19.Which is that, with Hillsborough, when we finally got to match up

:38:20. > :38:24.documents held at a local level with those at a national level, the full

:38:25. > :38:29.picture began to emerge. And it is my contention that exactly the same

:38:30. > :38:34.would emerge here. That the direct examples of cover-up I am about to

:38:35. > :38:38.give relating to individual cases would then be put together with what

:38:39. > :38:46.we know about documents held at the national level, or indeed not held,

:38:47. > :38:50.which itself implies wrongdoing. It is the putting together of that

:38:51. > :38:54.picture which, in the end, gives people the truth and allows people

:38:55. > :38:59.to understand how this happened. I will come directly to that point

:39:00. > :39:04.later. Later in my speech. I want to focus on three cases. I highlight

:39:05. > :39:12.these cases not because they are the only ones that I have seen or been

:39:13. > :39:17.sent, I do it because I have met or spoken directly to the individuals

:39:18. > :39:22.concerned, have a high degree of confidence in the facts, and also

:39:23. > :39:30.because I believe these cases are representative of many more. So let

:39:31. > :39:37.me start with the first case. A gentleman who does not want to be

:39:38. > :39:47.named. Who is only named as Stewart, but I do have his full details. I

:39:48. > :39:54.will give way. I think one of the reasons why this has not taken off

:39:55. > :39:57.as a real campaign widely is that victims, understandably, do not want

:39:58. > :40:01.to advertise to those around them what their conditioners. And I pay

:40:02. > :40:04.tribute to those who have talked to Members of Parliament, even on a

:40:05. > :40:09.confidential basis, so that we have ammunition. I think the right

:40:10. > :40:17.honourable gentleman is absolutely correct. There is a stigma related

:40:18. > :40:27.to HIV, appetite is. People do not want to openly talk about it. --

:40:28. > :40:32.hepatitis. Although I have drawn a parallel with Hillsborough, and he

:40:33. > :40:36.was at standing in his support of me with that, there is one major

:40:37. > :40:39.difference. On Hillsborough, the event happened on a day and everyone

:40:40. > :40:45.was watching it and everyone to remember where they wear when the

:40:46. > :40:49.pictures came through. -- can remember. This was a silent scandal

:40:50. > :40:55.that affected people in all parts of the country, all walks of life, not

:40:56. > :40:58.all from the same place. Spread out and maybe not able to organise in

:40:59. > :41:03.the same way that Hillsborough campaigners could organise. That is

:41:04. > :41:08.another reason why, in my view, they have not been able to move things

:41:09. > :41:13.forward. The other reason that the honourable gentleman gave is true as

:41:14. > :41:18.well. I will talk about Stewart. When he was six years old, he was

:41:19. > :41:25.sent to Maidstone Hospital. Sorry, he was sent by Maidstone Hospital

:41:26. > :41:31.for tests to see if he had haemophilia. When he was seven, they

:41:32. > :41:36.wrote back and said all the tests were normal and he did not have a

:41:37. > :41:39.bleeding problem. When he was eight, Stewart attended Maidstone Hospital

:41:40. > :41:42.with a swollen knee. Nothing more. A swollen knee that was not

:41:43. > :41:49.life-threatening and he had no bleeding problem associated with it.

:41:50. > :41:55.But the hospital, Maidstone, with no warning to Stewart or his parents,

:41:56. > :42:01.not all, treated him with 12 transfusions of contaminated blood

:42:02. > :42:04.products over three days. And according to his medical records

:42:05. > :42:14.later, this should not have happened. Maidstone Hospital then,

:42:15. > :42:22.in 1986, unbeknownst to Stewart, wasn't told about it, carried out an

:42:23. > :42:25.HIV and hepatitis test on him. He was never tested for hepatitis C,

:42:26. > :42:33.even though his records show that the test was available at the time.

:42:34. > :42:40.He was never again, tested, in 1989, or call back when other tests became

:42:41. > :42:43.available. Stewart had all of his medical records, except one thing is

:42:44. > :42:50.missing. The batch numbers for the contaminated blood products. He was

:42:51. > :42:56.eventually told that he had an infection for hepatitis C. Listen to

:42:57. > :43:06.this, Madam Deputy to go. January 2013 is when he was told that he was

:43:07. > :43:13.positive for hepatitis C. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. He was also told

:43:14. > :43:20.that it was too long then for him to sue court case, despite the fact

:43:21. > :43:23.that what medical experts had told him was the hospital had been

:43:24. > :43:37.negligent. Let me move to a second case. This case is of a woman called

:43:38. > :43:47.Nicola instant Jones. -- Enston Jones. As a female diagnosed with

:43:48. > :43:50.haemophilia in the 1980s, doctors denied anything was wrong with me

:43:51. > :43:54.and referred to me as having psychological problems. They said

:43:55. > :44:00.nothing was wrong with the treatment that they gave. She said it was not

:44:01. > :44:08.unusual for haemophiliacs growing up then. It was when I was 24, in 1995,

:44:09. > :44:12.that I asked a nurse if I had ever been tested for hepatitis C as my

:44:13. > :44:18.mum had seen the news about haemophiliacs dying from hepatitis.

:44:19. > :44:22.All the symptoms were the same as mine. The nurse laughed and said,

:44:23. > :44:27.you will not have that. Then came back with my medical nods and

:44:28. > :44:35.informed me that I was positive to hepatitis C from a test done in

:44:36. > :44:39.1991. A test I knew nothing about. Like a true haemophiliac, and after

:44:40. > :44:41.spending years of searching for answers, I had suddenly found out

:44:42. > :44:52.why I had suffered health problems since childhood. But, Madam Deputy

:44:53. > :44:58.Speaker, it was only later when Nicola was able to access our

:44:59. > :45:03.medical notes that she found an entry for 1990, which she do to my

:45:04. > :45:08.attention. I have it here now. It says on the notes, discussed

:45:09. > :45:11.hepatitis C. Nicola has told me directly that it never happened and

:45:12. > :45:16.it was never discussed with her in 1990. She found out for the first

:45:17. > :45:28.time in 1995. But the story gets quite a lot worse, Madam Becky --

:45:29. > :45:31.Madam Deputy Speaker. Nicholas said, 19 years later, little did I know

:45:32. > :45:34.that I would be at a police station reporting what I believed to be a

:45:35. > :45:44.criminal act and form of abuse on my own child. Once again, doctors

:45:45. > :45:49.performed tests without consent. Another well-known practice that

:45:50. > :45:52.haemophiliacs are sadly used to. I found out in 2013 at my

:45:53. > :45:57.nine-year-old haemophiliac son had been tested for HIV and hepatitis

:45:58. > :46:02.and no doubt a whole host of other viruses and pathogens, just like I

:46:03. > :46:05.had been when I was younger. Given my daughter has the disorder as

:46:06. > :46:10.well, there is now mired... Dead in my mind that she would have been

:46:11. > :46:12.tested. I found this out dud hand in a letter by chance from another

:46:13. > :46:20.professional asking if my son needed treatment abroad. -- there is no

:46:21. > :46:24.doubt in my mind. It said, this haemophiliac has been tested for HIV

:46:25. > :46:29.and hepatitis, which she is negative to.

:46:30. > :46:38.She had never been told. She had never given consent. Surely this

:46:39. > :46:44.isn't right in this day and age. In my view, that is a criminal act. To

:46:45. > :46:53.test a child without parent's knowledge. Let me come onto the

:46:54. > :47:02.third case, this, actually, is the most troubling of them all. It

:47:03. > :47:09.relates to a gentleman called Kenneth David Bullock, Ken Bullock.

:47:10. > :47:17.Ken was a very high-ranking civilian engineer who worked around the

:47:18. > :47:22.world. In his later career, he spent time advising what was then called

:47:23. > :47:32.the overseas development agency. He was a haemophilia. And, sadly, Ken

:47:33. > :47:38.died in 1998. A very traumatic death, unfortunately. Let me just

:47:39. > :47:48.read from the letter that his widow, Hazel Bullock, sent me. I am so

:47:49. > :47:54.relieved to hear you are still committed to an active enquiry into

:47:55. > :48:00.the contaminated blood tragedy. Between the 15th of November 1983

:48:01. > :48:06.and the 3rd of December 1983, my husband stopped being a haemophilia

:48:07. > :48:13.patient who had been infected with non-A, non-B type hepatitis to being

:48:14. > :48:18.a clinical alcoholic. This accusation continued and escalated,

:48:19. > :48:22.during the next 15 years, completely unknown to him, he was refused a

:48:23. > :48:31.liver transplant in 1998 and left to die still unaware of these appalling

:48:32. > :48:43.accusations. He did not drink alcohol. Mrs Bullock has examined

:48:44. > :48:51.her late husband's medical notes in detail, and again, I have them here

:48:52. > :48:59.in my possession today. An entry from February 1983, on his notes,

:49:00. > :49:03.acute hepatitis, it says. Then another one from March. Non-A, non-B

:49:04. > :49:11.had titres which he probably obtained from cryoprecipitate, the

:49:12. > :49:16.recognised treatment at the time. 1983 again. Exposure to blood

:49:17. > :49:24.products, diagnosis of non-A, non-B was made. However, it would seem at

:49:25. > :49:30.that point, Madam Deputy Speaker, all mention of blood products was to

:49:31. > :49:38.be stopped. Very suddenly. They were never again to be found anywhere in

:49:39. > :49:42.my husband's notes. From the 16th of December 1983 all the hospital

:49:43. > :49:48.records referred only to alcoholic damage to the liver. I have in my

:49:49. > :50:00.possession photocopies of all the following notes. December, 1983,

:50:01. > :50:08.alcohol could be considered. 1994, likes a few beers at weekends. 1995,

:50:09. > :50:20.alcoholic related hepatic dysfunction. 1990 five again,

:50:21. > :50:25.clinical alcoholism. -- 1985 again. 1996, chronic high alcohol

:50:26. > :50:32.consumption. 1998, the year Mr Bullock died, alcohol cirrhosis. Mrs

:50:33. > :50:38.Bullock concludes her letter, my husband died on the 3rd of October

:50:39. > :50:43.1998, at no time during this 15 years should alcohol has been

:50:44. > :50:47.mentioned. My husband's rear and occasional glass of wine was

:50:48. > :50:54.minimal. He never drank beer or spirits. Alcohol was never a part of

:50:55. > :51:04.our lives. And he had his last glass of wine on the 18th of June 1995, my

:51:05. > :51:08.60th birthday. My husband died completely and aware of these

:51:09. > :51:21.accusations. That have shocked family, friends and colleagues.

:51:22. > :51:26.Madam Deputy Speaker, just as the evidence of amended police

:51:27. > :51:31.statements provided the thread that we eventually polled to unravel the

:51:32. > :51:36.Hillsborough cover-up, so I believe the evidence I have just provided

:51:37. > :51:41.must now become the trigger for a wider enquiry into establishing the

:51:42. > :51:47.truth about contaminated blood. There is a very disturbing echo of

:51:48. > :51:52.Hillsborough, is there not, Madam Deputy Speaker? In what I have just

:51:53. > :52:02.said? In that people who are the victims of negligence, by the state,

:52:03. > :52:05.were suddenly the victims of smears perpetrated by those working on

:52:06. > :52:12.behalf of public bodies, particularly smears related to

:52:13. > :52:19.alcohol. To suggest that the disease that afflicted mixed Bullock's liver

:52:20. > :52:22.was self-inflicted. It reminds me, of course, of those front-page

:52:23. > :52:26.newspaper stories that appeared straight after Hillsborough that

:52:27. > :52:30.alleged the Liverpool fans were drunk. It is a time-honoured tactic,

:52:31. > :52:37.deflect the blame from when it should be over to someone else. Now,

:52:38. > :52:41.it is of course possible, that in each of the cases I have mentioned

:52:42. > :52:45.the hospitals and clinicians concerned were acting on an

:52:46. > :52:50.individual basis to prevent their negligent practices being known. But

:52:51. > :52:56.I have to say, I doubt this was the case. My suspicion, as I said to my

:52:57. > :53:03.honourable friend a few moments ago, is that they will be documents held

:53:04. > :53:05.at a national level, even by the Government, regulatory of national

:53:06. > :53:12.bodies that point to a more systematic effort to suppress the

:53:13. > :53:17.truth. I've got to win my possession. So I can save the

:53:18. > :53:21.Minister or the Government time if they suggest there aren't any. There

:53:22. > :53:30.are some. Two documents that I want to put on the official record today,

:53:31. > :53:39.Madam Deputy Speaker. One, a letter, sent from Stanford University's

:53:40. > :53:42.medical Centre in January 1975, to the blood products laboratory, then

:53:43. > :53:49.the UK Government's wholly-owned blood products operation. This

:53:50. > :53:53.letter goes into great lengths, warning about the risk of the new

:53:54. > :54:01.factor eight products that were coming on that to. It said, in

:54:02. > :54:08.relation to one particular products, this gentleman, writing the letter,

:54:09. > :54:17.a Mr Alan, he said of one product, the source of blood is 100% from

:54:18. > :54:21.skid Row. Skid row derelicts, in his words. He is writing to warn the

:54:22. > :54:30.British government about the blood products that are being abused. The

:54:31. > :54:35.second documents is from the Oxford haemophilia Centre, sent in January

:54:36. > :54:43.1982 to all haemophilia Centre directors in England. It is talking

:54:44. > :54:49.about the new products coming on the market, and it says this, after

:54:50. > :54:54.initial production batches may have been tested for infectivity by

:54:55. > :54:58.injecting them into chimpanzees, it is unlikely the manufacturers will

:54:59. > :55:02.be able to guarantee this form of quality control for future batches.

:55:03. > :55:06.It is important to find out by studies inhuman beings to what

:55:07. > :55:12.extent the infectivity of concentrates has been reduced. The

:55:13. > :55:15.most clear-cut way of doing this is administering these concentrates to

:55:16. > :55:22.patients requiring treatment to have not been exposed to large pool

:55:23. > :55:24.concentrates. In other words, let's find out whether these ineffective

:55:25. > :55:30.DCOM in their words come in these products by using them to be buckled

:55:31. > :55:39.patients as guinea pigs. That is what this is saying. Without regard

:55:40. > :55:45.for the consequences. Proof, in my view, of negligence of a very

:55:46. > :55:49.serious kind indeed. And that's what brings me to the point is my

:55:50. > :55:53.honourable friend raised earlier. When we have these documents, the

:55:54. > :56:01.Americans warning in 1975 about blood products derived from blood is

:56:02. > :56:06.taken off convicts on skid row, and then, when we have a letter going

:56:07. > :56:11.out from the haemophilia Centre in Oxford, some seven years later

:56:12. > :56:16.saying that they needed to be a push on trials, give them to patients so

:56:17. > :56:20.we can find out if these products are infectious. My goodness! You

:56:21. > :56:28.soon imagine something might need to be heading here. And that's when you

:56:29. > :56:32.consider the question of a health minister's papers, entire papers, as

:56:33. > :56:39.I understand, to be comprehensively destroyed. And do something they

:56:40. > :56:42.called the ten year rule. I've been a minister. I've never heard of the

:56:43. > :56:50.ten year rule. Have you, Madam Deputy Speaker? In ministers papers

:56:51. > :56:54.destroyed without his consent? It seems to sound alarm bells to me,

:56:55. > :56:57.and to suggest something is seriously amiss, Madam Deputy

:56:58. > :57:02.Speaker. Will my right honourable friend give way? I wondered if my

:57:03. > :57:07.right honourable friend was I shocked as I was to learn that in

:57:08. > :57:11.November 1983 the Health Secretary told parliament that there is no

:57:12. > :57:16.conclusive evidence that aid is transmitted by blood products. Yet

:57:17. > :57:19.months earlier the department was wearing a document that said AIDS

:57:20. > :57:26.was almost certainly transmitted in this way, and the advisory committee

:57:27. > :57:32.on dangerous pathogens told also strong circumstantial evidence that

:57:33. > :57:36.it was blood-borne. It seems, again, there was real issues about what was

:57:37. > :57:43.being told to people, and parliament. And ministers must

:57:44. > :57:45.never, never mislead Parliament, yet clearly, the information being given

:57:46. > :57:51.to parliament back then was not correct.

:57:52. > :57:56.I fear my honourable friend is right, once again. I am aware that

:57:57. > :58:00.Crown immunity was applied to individuals to protect the

:58:01. > :58:09.Government from litigation around this time. I think it does paint the

:58:10. > :58:14.picture, Madam Deputy Speaker, and come you know, this is why we come

:58:15. > :58:18.onto the need to see the papers, well, let's find out. I don't want

:58:19. > :58:23.to stand here and accuse ministers in that government of anything.

:58:24. > :58:26.That's not my purpose. Let's have a look at those papers. Let's see

:58:27. > :58:33.whether or not there was any misleading statement given. What I

:58:34. > :58:38.think we have evidence here in terms of the cases I put before the house

:58:39. > :58:44.today is, number one, people used as guinea pigs. Number two, people

:58:45. > :58:50.given inappropriate treatment, as Stuart was. Number three, tests

:58:51. > :58:57.being done without people's knowledge or consent. Number four,

:58:58. > :59:02.the results of tests, even when they revealed positive results, being

:59:03. > :59:06.withheld for years, decades in some cases from those individuals. It's

:59:07. > :59:11.even been suggested to me that other people, close to those people,

:59:12. > :59:15.Vanguard subsequent infections from people because they didn't know they

:59:16. > :59:21.had taken over you or hepatitis C. They were living their lives and

:59:22. > :59:26.infected other people -- they were HIV-positive or hepatitis C

:59:27. > :59:32.positive, or as we saw in the case of Ken Bullock, the falsification of

:59:33. > :59:34.medical records, smooth and smears to suggest liver disease was

:59:35. > :59:45.self-inflicted. These are criminal acts. Criminal acts. I will give

:59:46. > :59:49.way. Can I pay tribute to him when he was sucked your state for health,

:59:50. > :59:57.because I was in the Department with him at the time. Can I ask him this

:59:58. > :00:00.question, are we saying that the information is immune from the Data

:00:01. > :00:05.Protection Act and the Freedom of Information Act? Has this ever

:00:06. > :00:10.applied? I think people have applied for documents but many have been

:00:11. > :00:14.withheld. I'll come onto this point in a moment. I was a minister in the

:00:15. > :00:19.Department of Health just after the Archer report had come out. And had

:00:20. > :00:23.been responded to by the previous Secretary of State. I came in, and

:00:24. > :00:32.that the instigation of the late Paul Goggins, sought to reopen the

:00:33. > :00:37.whole issue. And received a lot of institutional resistance, if I could

:00:38. > :00:42.put it that way. And yes, I stand here myself out of a sense of guilt.

:00:43. > :00:46.I wish I'd done more over the years. But having pieced it all together, I

:00:47. > :00:49.think the documents that are withheld would fill in some of the

:00:50. > :00:55.gaps that I'm describing today. I will give way. I thank him for

:00:56. > :01:03.giving way. I thank you for the work is done on this issue. The case he

:01:04. > :01:08.describes, the third case he describes, surely is one of

:01:09. > :01:12.defamation. Is it not the case, and would he agree that all families

:01:13. > :01:15.affected, if they haven't already, must access their own medical

:01:16. > :01:20.records or the medical records of family members who have passed away?

:01:21. > :01:40.defamation. The number of people that have said ages are missing,

:01:41. > :01:48.crucial pages are missing, there are so many examples of those. I have

:01:49. > :01:52.put on record things that are provable and criminal and it cannot

:01:53. > :01:58.be left there. This is where the Minister will have to answer this

:01:59. > :02:03.point directly when she responds. I thank my right honourable friend

:02:04. > :02:06.forgiving way. I pay tribute to him and the honourable member for the

:02:07. > :02:16.work that they have done in exposing this.

:02:17. > :02:21.When I had a story from my constituent who lost his wife

:02:22. > :02:29.because of a contaminated blood products that had hepatitis C, I

:02:30. > :02:35.came across as very sinister cover-up and I pay tribute to Mike

:02:36. > :02:40.colleague for exposing it. The whole thing, it is about finance, can we

:02:41. > :02:43.give them a bit more? It has kind of been helpful to the Government

:02:44. > :02:50.because it has never been focusing on the issue that really should be

:02:51. > :02:54.focused on. As I said at the beginning, if the truth were known,

:02:55. > :02:58.the wave of support behind people struggling for the truth would have

:02:59. > :03:02.been massive. The Government would have had nowhere to go, it would

:03:03. > :03:05.have had to have responded. Consequently, people still

:03:06. > :03:10.struggling, like the onward gentleman's constituents. I give way

:03:11. > :03:15.to the honourable gentleman. It seems to me that what he's pointing

:03:16. > :03:18.out three major things. The first is of those still alive who are

:03:19. > :03:23.affected and families need generals held without delay. The second is to

:03:24. > :03:26.have an enquiry into what went wrong all the way through, especially if

:03:27. > :03:32.people have interfered with the preservation of evidence. Whether

:03:33. > :03:36.people are prosecuted is a separate thing, but knowing what happened

:03:37. > :03:44.matters most. But the point that Julie in my mind is that of around

:03:45. > :03:48.1970 or 1971, the difference of blood the nations freely given by

:03:49. > :03:57.the healthy and the point about where the honourable gentleman came

:03:58. > :04:03.from an estate... This should have been passed on as soon as they had

:04:04. > :04:07.any warning at all, from Stamford at anywhere else. That was the direct

:04:08. > :04:12.content of the Stamford letter. I think there was a worry that the NHS

:04:13. > :04:15.was using these products in a completely different context, not

:04:16. > :04:19.understanding the difference between the two systems. That is the

:04:20. > :04:23.Stamford letter. I do not stand Jedinak proclaiming to be an expert

:04:24. > :04:27.on other people's. I am not. What I am doing here is saying what I know

:04:28. > :04:30.to be wrong for the people I have spoken to and then linking it to

:04:31. > :04:33.those documents to say what I believe to be the case. I might not

:04:34. > :04:37.be right, but I think we need to find out whether I am right and that

:04:38. > :04:40.is the point there will be putting to the Government later. I set my

:04:41. > :04:45.will give way. Thank you forgiving way. I was not going to intervene,

:04:46. > :04:49.but this point made by the right honourable member opposite about

:04:50. > :04:54.treatment being needed and generous treatment, generous treatment is not

:04:55. > :05:01.what the victims of this NHS scandal are reading. I have a constituent

:05:02. > :05:05.infected by this scandal as a child at the Manchester Children's

:05:06. > :05:10.Hospital. When he discovered that his cirrhosis meant, if it went

:05:11. > :05:13.untreated, he had a 25% chance of having liver cancer comedy was told

:05:14. > :05:18.he would be denied treatment on the NHS and the treatment he needed to

:05:19. > :05:26.clear the road from his system would cost ?100,000. It was at that point

:05:27. > :05:31.he decided to use the payment he had been made, that was supposed to be

:05:32. > :05:36.some compensation, to try to clear the virus load out of his system.

:05:37. > :05:39.That is the situation people are in, victims and at the moment, and that

:05:40. > :05:43.is the situation my constituent is in. It is a disgrace. They should

:05:44. > :05:49.not be fighting using their own money for their own treatment. It is

:05:50. > :05:55.a total disgrace. Absolutely, Phil, fair compensation. Do not delay. Do

:05:56. > :05:57.it now. Government should do that now. They raised expectations and

:05:58. > :06:12.they should do it and we all supported. I will give way in a

:06:13. > :06:16.moment. Mrs Bullock has been reduced to sending begging letters to the

:06:17. > :06:21.Skipton fund. She is not well herself now. How can that be right?

:06:22. > :06:28.We're making a woman who has lost everything make begging letters. And

:06:29. > :06:31.her husband is no longer there. Her husband was possibly refused a liver

:06:32. > :06:35.transplant because his notes said he was an alcoholic. It is injustice

:06:36. > :06:39.upon injustice here. It is absolutely scandalous. And I hope

:06:40. > :06:42.the houses now understanding why I could not live with myself, as I

:06:43. > :06:46.said at the beginning, if I left this place without telling it

:06:47. > :06:50.directly, what I know to be true. I give way to my right honourable

:06:51. > :06:58.friend. I am very grateful. He has made a very powerful case that there

:06:59. > :07:01.was a systematic cover-up. And by joining together the dots in the way

:07:02. > :07:07.that he does, there is a picture which seems to be emerging and needs

:07:08. > :07:15.to be examined further. But even if he is wrong, and what we are

:07:16. > :07:20.actually confronted with is systemic and ministry at us and medical

:07:21. > :07:23.failures, the argument for immediate compensation for all the people

:07:24. > :07:30.affected is so powerful that the Government do need to look at that

:07:31. > :07:35.ardently. -- urgently. And, if possible, say something urgent Mac

:07:36. > :07:39.sense of what I did today. Absolutely. I could not agree more.

:07:40. > :07:42.It is downright immoral to make them keep begging in the way that they

:07:43. > :07:47.have been forced to do. They raised their hopes and they should deliver

:07:48. > :07:51.on the former premise to's promise, and do what my right honourable

:07:52. > :07:56.friend has just said. In terms of the story that is becoming clear,

:07:57. > :08:01.there is one becoming clear, isn't there? Warnings from the US ignored.

:08:02. > :08:04.He wished to drive on these new products from the haemophilia centre

:08:05. > :08:10.to push them out and find out the results before they know what could

:08:11. > :08:14.happen with them. Problems happened and then there was a situation

:08:15. > :08:18.where, the Government might be exposed to litigation. Let's not

:08:19. > :08:22.have it in the notes of people so that we do not have a story building

:08:23. > :08:25.about how there has been negligence and people might have compensation

:08:26. > :08:30.claims. That is the story I have got. I don't know about anyone else.

:08:31. > :08:33.And some people would say, actually, don't just destroy the notes,

:08:34. > :08:39.falsify them. That is the story. That is why we need to find out

:08:40. > :08:46.whether that is true or not. Because it is my view, Madam Deputy Speaker

:08:47. > :08:49.that these are criminal acts that did not just happen by chance. A

:08:50. > :08:55.major injustice has happened here. When I make a speech tonight, I

:08:56. > :09:00.think of our late, great friend, Paul Goggins, who MS every single

:09:01. > :09:07.day and he did so much to advance the cause of justice of those who

:09:08. > :09:13.suffered. -- who I miss. And his constituents and the promises I have

:09:14. > :09:19.made to them, to act for them in Paul's name. In 2013 debate like

:09:20. > :09:25.this, just before he died, Paul made an impassioned call for, quote, a

:09:26. > :09:29.serious Government backed enquiry with access to all the remaining