05/07/2017

:00:13. > :00:23.To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if you will...

:00:24. > :00:33.We all recognise that public sector workers do a fantastic job. Over the

:00:34. > :00:37.past seven years, we have seen major improvements in our public services.

:00:38. > :00:44.Crime is down with a greater proportion of police on the front

:00:45. > :00:49.line. My children going on to apprenticeships and University. Our

:00:50. > :00:56.NHS is looking after more people than at any other time. Government

:00:57. > :01:02.pay policy is designed to be fair to public sector workers who works so

:01:03. > :01:08.hard to deliver the strong public services. But we also must provide

:01:09. > :01:15.those public services on a sustainable basis for the future. In

:01:16. > :01:21.many services, workers have received additional pay on the 1% increase.

:01:22. > :01:30.Teachers have had a 3.3% increase. In 2015-16, more than half of nurses

:01:31. > :01:36.and other NHS staff had an increase of over 3%. Military service

:01:37. > :01:40.personnel also saw a average additional increase of 2.4%.

:01:41. > :01:46.Salaries in the public sector remain comparable to those in the public

:01:47. > :01:51.sector. -- private sector. In addition, many benefit from

:01:52. > :01:56.entitlements. And the rise in the personal allowance worth 1000 pounds

:01:57. > :02:04.per year to a basic rate taxpayer. Mr Speaker, we are currently

:02:05. > :02:08.competing the pay review process for 2017-18. We have accepted the pay

:02:09. > :02:14.review body recommendations made for doctors, the NHS and the Armed

:02:15. > :02:17.Forces. We will be looking at very carefully at the recommendations on

:02:18. > :02:22.the remainder and making determinations in the usual way. As

:02:23. > :02:26.the Chancellor said on Monday, our policy on public sector pay has

:02:27. > :02:29.always been designed to strike the right balance of being fair to our

:02:30. > :02:33.public sector workers and fair to those who pay for them. That

:02:34. > :02:42.approach has not changed and the Government will continually assessed

:02:43. > :02:49.that balance. Can I try welcome the right honourable lady to her post?

:02:50. > :02:57.When we asked a question of the Chancellor, we expect the Chancellor

:02:58. > :03:02.to respond to that question. It was simple. We just wanted simple

:03:03. > :03:07.clarity about whether the pay cap still is in force. That is all we

:03:08. > :03:12.ask for. It confirms the response we have received what most commentators

:03:13. > :03:19.are now saying. This is not a Government, this is a cabinet of

:03:20. > :03:24.absolute chaos. Let me explain to the opposition that's actually the

:03:25. > :03:32.existing Government policy as set out in the comrades of spending

:03:33. > :03:38.review 2015, due to be ratified today in the Supply and

:03:39. > :03:44.Appropriations Bill, is a 1% pay cap still. This is the text that to

:03:45. > :03:50.which the various pay review bodies are still working. They are written

:03:51. > :03:56.to and told that their recommendations and proposals have

:03:57. > :04:00.to reflect, the Government was not policy on public sector pay award.

:04:01. > :04:05.Over the last week we have seen absolute confusion in Government,

:04:06. > :04:08.total disarray. The question we are proposing is who actually speaks for

:04:09. > :04:14.the Government on this issue? On the day of the Queen's speech, number

:04:15. > :04:19.ten was briefing at the end of posterity and relaxing the pay cap

:04:20. > :04:22.only to be contradicted by an incandescent briefing from number

:04:23. > :04:29.11. LAUGHTER

:04:30. > :04:35.Daily fearful, number ten then backs down. Prodded by primaries, it must

:04:36. > :04:40.be tough living next to a destructive neighbour. You cannot

:04:41. > :04:46.stand them, you try to get rid of and you cannot get on with. We

:04:47. > :04:52.received in the press, Mr Speaker, the wisdom of the right honourable

:04:53. > :04:56.member for Axbridge who supports the idea of a public sector worker

:04:57. > :05:05.getting a better pay deal, followed up by his past campaign manager

:05:06. > :05:11.turned political assassin, the new Environment Secretary who actually

:05:12. > :05:16.supports against the Chancellor. The whole process degenerates into

:05:17. > :05:26.farce. We have David Cameron earning 1000 -- ?100,000 per Speech saying

:05:27. > :05:32.that 1% its average. A grown-up debate? I agree. What we have seen

:05:33. > :05:39.is Cabinet ministers scrapping in the school playground. Cut of Mac

:05:40. > :05:49.from the real world. The Chancellor has no understanding why our public

:05:50. > :05:56.sector workers are so angry. Tax cuts to the rich and corporations

:05:57. > :06:03.while their pay is cut. Can the Chief Secretary car hi-fi wide the

:06:04. > :06:09.Government's estimates on the orders paper today will accommodate the

:06:10. > :06:13.reported of up to the Fire And Rescue Services which I am told is

:06:14. > :06:18.subject to to Government funding? Moreover, if we are tasty and other

:06:19. > :06:23.Government U-turn, which in the case of public sector pay we would

:06:24. > :06:28.welcome. How were they find the 5 billion needed and they say would be

:06:29. > :06:34.saved by the 1% pay cap? RB being confronted by get another un-costed

:06:35. > :06:38.commitment within weeks of a parliament commencing? It is the

:06:39. > :06:47.magic money tree again. The Government's own report on Monday

:06:48. > :06:57.showed how much doctors and nurses paid for. Does the Chancellor think

:06:58. > :07:01.it is very given... Given 20% more nurses left the nursing register

:07:02. > :07:06.than joined it this year does the Chancellor agreed the chief

:07:07. > :07:13.executive of the Royal College of nurses, for every day the cap is in

:07:14. > :07:18.place it is haemorrhaging? Can the chief Secretary to us went will an

:07:19. > :07:21.actual decision be made about the future of the pay cap? Will public

:07:22. > :07:26.sector workers have to wait until the next Budget report of finding

:07:27. > :07:32.out whether they will have decent paper the next two years? Should the

:07:33. > :07:36.Chancellor right to the pay review bodies formally to say they are free

:07:37. > :07:43.to do what is right by public service and pay them a fake para

:07:44. > :07:56.what this year? -- their pay award -- fair pay award. I am here today

:07:57. > :08:01.to answer his questions because I am responsible for this policy area. I

:08:02. > :08:06.think that is entirely appropriate even if you does not want to see me

:08:07. > :08:09.in the dispatch box. As has been outlined by the Chancellor and by

:08:10. > :08:15.minister, our policy remains in place. Because it is the responsible

:08:16. > :08:21.thing to do. It is the responsible thing to balance the importance of

:08:22. > :08:27.recruiting and retaining high-quality people in our public

:08:28. > :08:29.services and also making sure that our public's finances remain

:08:30. > :08:34.sustainable so we can continue to see the improvements in our public

:08:35. > :08:41.services that we have seen under this Government. Can I say, Mr

:08:42. > :08:44.Speaker, that some of the Shadow Chancellor's comments went

:08:45. > :08:54.disingenuous. He did not reflect the fact... Order. I am sure at the

:08:55. > :09:02.honourable lady has a versatile vocabulary. She cannot say

:09:03. > :09:13.disingenuous. That is an imputation of dishonour. I do withdraw that.

:09:14. > :09:22.Perhaps the honourable gentleman was mistaken in what you might have

:09:23. > :09:25.said. We did see and 2015-16 teachers see 3.5% worth of

:09:26. > :09:34.progression pay, more than half of nurses and NHS workers get over 3%.

:09:35. > :09:38.And military service personnel received 2.4%. I suggest the

:09:39. > :09:42.honourable gentleman includes those facts in the figures next time he

:09:43. > :09:51.speaks. As for the Fire Service, he knows perfectly well that those

:09:52. > :09:57.policies are set independently -- by Government. I think it is wrong we

:09:58. > :10:01.are hearing the Government top down our public services -- hearing the

:10:02. > :10:06.opposition top down our public services when we see improvements,

:10:07. > :10:09.more people are attracted into the public services, the best

:10:10. > :10:15.performance ever in our education system and our health system. As for

:10:16. > :10:21.un-costed commitments, the honourable gentleman has ?16 billion

:10:22. > :10:27.worth of un-costed commitments. He also asked me about the pay review

:10:28. > :10:31.process. The process is simple - we have received recommendations from

:10:32. > :10:35.pay review bodies already this year. They make decisions based on the

:10:36. > :10:40.individual circumstances within those sectors. We have followed all

:10:41. > :10:44.of their recommendations. We will look at the further recommendations

:10:45. > :10:49.we need to make decisions on, and we will look at that balance between

:10:50. > :10:53.affordability and making sure that we retain and recruit high-quality

:10:54. > :10:58.public sector workers. This is the right approach. It is not saying we

:10:59. > :11:01.are going to open up the cheque-book, bankrupt our public

:11:02. > :11:07.services and see people lose jobs. Which is exactly what happened in

:11:08. > :11:10.countries like Greece which took that approach, took their eye of the

:11:11. > :11:15.public finances. The honourable gentleman needs to take a more

:11:16. > :11:21.balanced approach in the way he looks at this issue. During these

:11:22. > :11:30.other fractures proceedings to date, one member has been the embodiment

:11:31. > :11:33.of calm and serenity. That members should be imitated by others. And

:11:34. > :11:40.will now be called to contribute. Mr Kenneth clerk.

:11:41. > :11:51.They are not adjectives that have been applied to me during my

:11:52. > :11:57.political career. May I thank my right honourable friend. We keep the

:11:58. > :12:04.economy on track for a steady, sustainable growth in future and we

:12:05. > :12:08.steadily eliminate the problem of debt and deficit that we inherited.

:12:09. > :12:15.Does she also agree with me that if she were to give way to the lobby on

:12:16. > :12:19.the subject, it would be a political disaster because the government

:12:20. > :12:23.would be accused of a U-turn and surrender and it would set a fire

:12:24. > :12:29.wave of pay claims across the whole public sector which the opposition

:12:30. > :12:33.are looking forward to take part in, if they can provoke them. It could

:12:34. > :12:39.possibly be an economic disaster and not in the interest of the many

:12:40. > :12:42.people, the private and public sector, are having economic

:12:43. > :12:46.difficulties and this time and want to look forward to a much more

:12:47. > :12:53.prosperous future as we get our economy enter health again. My

:12:54. > :12:59.honourable friend has huge experience in these areas. He is

:13:00. > :13:03.correct to say that we need to take account of public services and how

:13:04. > :13:07.we sustainably finance public services for the long-term. We need

:13:08. > :13:13.to look at those specific issues in each sector about where we do need

:13:14. > :13:18.to recruit and retain staff, but we also need to look at Furnace with

:13:19. > :13:22.the private sector. At the moment we have roughly come parable salaries

:13:23. > :13:27.between their public and the private sector. What we need to do as a

:13:28. > :13:31.country is to ensure we improve our productivity, improve our growth

:13:32. > :13:36.rate, and that is the way we will see everybody benefits. This

:13:37. > :13:39.government has a fantastic record of getting people into work. We have

:13:40. > :13:43.the lowest unemployment level since the lowest unemployment level since

:13:44. > :13:50.1975 and we need to make sure we continue with that. We had all hoped

:13:51. > :13:55.today would bring some commitment and certainty from the government on

:13:56. > :13:59.public sector pay, instead we see stonewalling of public sector

:14:00. > :14:05.workers from the dispatch box well members of the Cabinet abandon

:14:06. > :14:09.collective responsibility. Perhaps that is more about those ministers

:14:10. > :14:12.desire to undermine the Chancellor and Prime Minister than their

:14:13. > :14:18.commitment to public sector workers, as evidenced today in the Times. The

:14:19. > :14:23.Prime Minister wanted to and then something today but could not get

:14:24. > :14:30.ministers to agree a line. A report from academics was published quietly

:14:31. > :14:36.by the government's one Department. It showed that real wages fell by 6%

:14:37. > :14:40.and for some by 3p and I were. Perhaps part of the reason why this

:14:41. > :14:45.last decade has been the worst for a wage growth in the last 200 years

:14:46. > :14:50.and why we continue to seek in rises in and work poverty. Can the

:14:51. > :14:58.secondary advise why our dedicated police, firefighters and nurses, who

:14:59. > :15:03.put their lives on the line for us, what they need to do to earn a fair

:15:04. > :15:08.pay rise. Does she support the former Prime Minister's comments by

:15:09. > :15:15.David Cameron yesterday, whose editors selfish for those two

:15:16. > :15:20.campaign for a pay cut? We have got very clear process by which he is

:15:21. > :15:26.determined. We have independent pay review bodies make recommendations

:15:27. > :15:34.on areas like the police, on areas like the nurses, and we will look

:15:35. > :15:43.very quickly -- carefully at those recommendations. That is a

:15:44. > :15:48.responsible approach to take. That is the approach that will see an

:15:49. > :15:58.economy grow and unemployed -- unemployment continued to be in a

:15:59. > :16:02.positive direction. We know that suitors -- 2010 there have been

:16:03. > :16:10.13,000 more nurses employed by the NHS. I am worried that the party's

:16:11. > :16:17.offers that could lead to a cut in the number of nurses, given there

:16:18. > :16:24.was a ?68 billion black hole in the manifesto finances. Could my right

:16:25. > :16:29.honourable friend assured me, that she not only looks at every level of

:16:30. > :16:34.pay but also making sure we can continue to afford to employ more

:16:35. > :16:39.nurses and also that we continue to focus on sound finances and a strong

:16:40. > :16:47.economy to pay for the numbers of nurses we need. She is right to

:16:48. > :16:51.point out that by having this balanced policy, we have protected

:16:52. > :16:56.jobs in the public sector and we have protected those imported

:16:57. > :17:01.services. The old BR outlined in the report that our policy protects the

:17:02. > :17:06.jobs of 200,000 public sector workers. That is important for those

:17:07. > :17:11.people but it is also important for our constituents who receive those

:17:12. > :17:14.public services and are seeing improvements in schools, in

:17:15. > :17:19.hospitals, in terms of the level of crime coming down. It is important

:17:20. > :17:23.we take that balanced approach. Does the Chief Secretary not except that

:17:24. > :17:28.there is a fundamental difference in the economic conditions when the 1%

:17:29. > :17:32.cap was introduced which was when there was a feeling of large-scale

:17:33. > :17:36.unemployment and inflation, from the present-day wearer chronic labour

:17:37. > :17:46.shortage throughout their public sector, where salaries have been

:17:47. > :17:52.eroded. I would say to the honourable gentleman, right

:17:53. > :17:57.honourable gentleman, forgive me. I would say that first of all public

:17:58. > :18:04.sector pay is come parable with private sector pay. And in addition,

:18:05. > :18:08.public sector pensions are set at a higher level on average than private

:18:09. > :18:14.sector pensions. The pay review bodies have a remit to look at

:18:15. > :18:16.retention and recruitment. When they make their independent decisions, of

:18:17. > :18:21.course I will look at all of the recommendations that are due to come

:18:22. > :18:28.out of those bodies. But he has again made the same omission that

:18:29. > :18:32.was made earlier, which is a lot of those roles have pay increments,

:18:33. > :18:37.independent from that one present. So we have seen teachers pay

:18:38. > :18:43.increase by 3.3% in the last year for which we have got records. He is

:18:44. > :18:47.not right to say it is solely the 1%. In fact public sector workers

:18:48. > :18:55.are rewarded and a number of different ways. A recent study shows

:18:56. > :19:03.that public sector productivity fell by 5.7% in the long period

:19:04. > :19:07.1997-2014. Isn't the way forward better pay for a smarter working?

:19:08. > :19:10.Here was that give something for something so the taxpayer wins, the

:19:11. > :19:19.service user wins and the employer wins? My right honourable friend is

:19:20. > :19:22.correct to say that we do want to see improvement in our public

:19:23. > :19:26.services. I highlighted earlier education where we are seeing more

:19:27. > :19:29.children going to good and outstanding skills, a health service

:19:30. > :19:36.which is dealing with more patience than it ever has in the past. And

:19:37. > :19:42.school policy, pay policy is set by individual academies, for example.

:19:43. > :19:46.We are giving more freedoms over pay and overpay determination. But it is

:19:47. > :19:50.important that we looked at the public finances as a whole and make

:19:51. > :19:53.sure that overall we are living with no means as a whole and make sure

:19:54. > :19:59.that overall we are living within our means of the country. Mr

:20:00. > :20:04.Speaker, right now 130 workers at an officer being told that their place

:20:05. > :20:08.of work will be closed, that their jobs relocated up to an hours drive

:20:09. > :20:15.away. Haven't these public sector workers suffered enough from the

:20:16. > :20:22.seven years pay cut. Is it not wrong that they need to find more money to

:20:23. > :20:30.pay to and from work? The honourable lady refers to a job centre in her

:20:31. > :20:36.constituency. I am sure that the DWP were looking at how those people can

:20:37. > :20:42.be assisted, and it is something I am happy to deal with the DWP

:20:43. > :20:48.secretary on her behalf. In Chelmsford, we are very proud of

:20:49. > :20:53.being one of the places where nurses trained at the great Anglia Ruskin

:20:54. > :20:58.University. It is good to hear my honourable friend speaking about how

:20:59. > :21:03.nurses have benefited from pre-progression and lower taxes to

:21:04. > :21:08.the increments. Part of increasing the prosperity of public sector

:21:09. > :21:10.workers is increasing the training opportunities and there is great

:21:11. > :21:20.excitement about the introduction of degree apprenticeships. But also

:21:21. > :21:24.having more money in your pocket and affordable housing. Can the Minister

:21:25. > :21:29.confirm that part of increasing prosperity is not just the pay, but

:21:30. > :21:32.also having a strong economy to deliver more houses and more

:21:33. > :21:39.training for more skilled opportunities. She is right that we

:21:40. > :21:44.need to look at the wider package that people receive. Whether that is

:21:45. > :21:51.support for a pension, whether it is additional flexibility is, whether

:21:52. > :21:56.it is additional elements of pay and training. And training and

:21:57. > :21:59.progression is extremely important. I remember visiting Chelmsford

:22:00. > :22:02.prison where they are also looking at training opportunities for prison

:22:03. > :22:07.officers. I know that is something we're looking through the public

:22:08. > :22:11.sector because job satisfaction derives from owning things. Of

:22:12. > :22:15.course purely is important, I would not deny that, it is also about

:22:16. > :22:19.working conditions and people on the front line feeling empowered that

:22:20. > :22:22.they can do their jobs well and they are contributing. Being a public

:22:23. > :22:26.servant is incredibly important. What we need to show is that we're

:22:27. > :22:29.giving people on the front line that ability to be make decisions and

:22:30. > :22:38.really improve people's lives for the better. As a public sector

:22:39. > :22:46.worker, how much has own pay increased since 2010? How has her

:22:47. > :22:50.productivity increased since 2010? And can the country afford her pay

:22:51. > :22:59.increase? And if so does she agree with me that Britain deserves a pay

:23:00. > :23:09.increase customer might pay has gone both up and down since 2010. My pay

:23:10. > :23:14.is set independently. I think the important point is that the pay of

:23:15. > :23:19.public sector workers is determined by these pay review bodies. I take

:23:20. > :23:24.the recommendations very seriously. And that is the way that we should

:23:25. > :23:29.approach this issue, rather than trying to politicise it and say that

:23:30. > :23:34.we need a blanket approach, what we have set these public sector bodies

:23:35. > :23:45.the remit to make those decisions themselves. When is the government

:23:46. > :23:49.going to introduce the ?95,000 cap on exit payments for public sector

:23:50. > :23:53.workers? The legislation on the statute book but has not been

:23:54. > :23:59.implemented. Why cannot it be implemented soon so we do not have

:24:00. > :24:04.any more payments like the ?300,000 paid earlier for the leader of

:24:05. > :24:12.Bournemouth Council to leave? I will be happy to discuss that later with

:24:13. > :24:15.my honourable friend. The rise in inflation, the recommendations of

:24:16. > :24:19.pay review bodies and the closing of the gap between the public and

:24:20. > :24:24.private sector pay has given focus to the whole issue of the current

:24:25. > :24:31.pay policy. Would she agree with me that the rhetoric about austerity,

:24:32. > :24:36.and costed and and financed amendments to the Queen's Speech are

:24:37. > :24:39.no substitute a look at the tax implementations, the borrowing

:24:40. > :24:46.implications and implications another parts of the public sector

:24:47. > :24:51.over the review policy? We need to look at, not only the issue of

:24:52. > :24:54.fairness, public sector workers which is important, not only the

:24:55. > :24:59.issue of recruitment and retention, but also the overall health of the

:25:00. > :25:02.British economy so we can make sure that we carry on having low

:25:03. > :25:07.unemployment rates, we carry on seeing growth in our economy and we

:25:08. > :25:12.deal with the debt at which as a result of the great recession that

:25:13. > :25:17.we suffered as a country. And we need to pay out that debt, we need

:25:18. > :25:24.to get the deficit further down so that we can continue to enjoy high

:25:25. > :25:30.quality public services. As someone who worked as a nurse during the pay

:25:31. > :25:33.cap and pay freeze, can I say how difficult that is as a public sector

:25:34. > :25:41.worker and as a nurse. But the issue is greater than pay rises, it is the

:25:42. > :25:48.pay structure. There was an increment system where people were

:25:49. > :25:55.waiting 56 years -- 5-6 years before they got the pay rises they

:25:56. > :26:03.deserved. The pay structure isn't working and that needs to be looked

:26:04. > :26:08.as urgently as the pay cap. Her great expertise as a former nurse

:26:09. > :26:15.shows in the detailed question she has asked. We do need to make sure

:26:16. > :26:19.that we reform public services and we make sure that people have the

:26:20. > :26:24.opportunity to progress and be trained in the roles that they do.

:26:25. > :26:29.One of the roles of the pay review body is to look at those structures

:26:30. > :26:34.as well as looking at the rates of pay. And certainly during the

:26:35. > :26:38.process that they go through the take evidence from front line

:26:39. > :26:41.workers, from unions, from experts in the area, and I hope they will

:26:42. > :26:49.take those issues into consideration.

:26:50. > :26:56.The Chief Secretary referred to productivity increases in the public

:26:57. > :27:01.sector. I wonder what she would say when we saw firefighters racing into

:27:02. > :27:04.Grenfell Tower paramedics and police racing into the Manchester Arena.

:27:05. > :27:11.Doctors and nurses who worked round the clock and others in the medical

:27:12. > :27:15.profession to say people's lives. What would she say about

:27:16. > :27:21.productivity increases by those people who serve the people of the

:27:22. > :27:25.country? Those firefighters and police and other people in the

:27:26. > :27:31.emergency services have done a tremendous job and I am sure we are

:27:32. > :27:36.age and the grateful that they put themselves in the line of danger on

:27:37. > :27:45.a regular basis. He is right to point that out. Productivity, what

:27:46. > :27:49.does it mean? It means as we talked earlier, empowering people on the

:27:50. > :27:53.front line make decisions, to do things more quickly. When I see

:27:54. > :27:57.people working as nurses and teachers, sometimes they will say

:27:58. > :28:02.they want to see less bureaucracy so they can get on with the real jobs

:28:03. > :28:06.they have been employed to do. That is why the police are spending more

:28:07. > :28:10.time on the front line. Productivity means giving people more job

:28:11. > :28:14.satisfaction. They can spend more of their time doing the job they have

:28:15. > :28:18.come into the public services to do. That is why we are reforming the

:28:19. > :28:27.public services and seeing those improvements. Does my right

:28:28. > :28:33.honourable friend agree that it is vitally important to balance

:28:34. > :28:42.fairness to public servants and taxpayers who pay for the public

:28:43. > :28:45.services? We need to have a continual balance of making sure we

:28:46. > :28:51.are fair to people working in the public services, giving them the

:28:52. > :28:56.training and opportunities that they deserve. That they are being

:28:57. > :28:59.unfairly paid. And at the same time making sure they will be able to

:29:00. > :29:04.continue working in those services in the future. If we look at what

:29:05. > :29:09.happened in Greece when the deficit got out of control, we saw a 36%

:29:10. > :29:14.reduction on health service spending. The gentlemen opposite may

:29:15. > :29:17.groan, but they need to look at the facts about what happens when you

:29:18. > :29:28.make un-unfunded spending commitments. Can we be Claire that

:29:29. > :29:33.the IMF has said that Labour's spending plans would lead to the

:29:34. > :29:42.highest levels of taxation we have ever seen in peacetime Britain? --

:29:43. > :29:49.IFS. This would lead to people losing their jobs, not moderate

:29:50. > :29:57.proposals. The chief Secretary rightly outlined there is more to

:29:58. > :30:04.the package for public service workers including pensions. But it

:30:05. > :30:10.is ?80 per week. Their workloads are increased twofold, so isn't it the

:30:11. > :30:16.truth the Government knows the cost of everything and the value of

:30:17. > :30:21.absolutely nothing? What we care about is how good our public

:30:22. > :30:27.services are serving the public and that we want to have highly

:30:28. > :30:32.motivated people working in our public services who feel valued and

:30:33. > :30:40.properly remunerated. That is why we have these independent body to make

:30:41. > :30:46.these decisions. Members on all sides will want to see strong wage

:30:47. > :30:51.increases for those in the bottom end whatever sector. Can the

:30:52. > :30:55.Minister tell us about what the new National Living Wage will do to the

:30:56. > :30:58.incomes of those on the bottom end and can chicken from it will us one

:30:59. > :31:05.of the strongest minimum wages in the world? I congratulate my

:31:06. > :31:16.honourable friend on the road he had in that policy. We are raising wages

:31:17. > :31:20.for those on lowest incomes and basic rate taxpayers have seen a

:31:21. > :31:25.?1000 reduction in their tax Bill. That is important for dealing with

:31:26. > :31:35.the cost of living. But also making sure it always pays for people to go

:31:36. > :31:40.into work. In a very readable book, austerity, history of the dangerous

:31:41. > :31:51.idea, austerity always fails either at the ballot box or people... If it

:31:52. > :31:58.would concentrate on growth, the deficit would take care of itself.

:31:59. > :32:05.Spending on the economy to create about growth? I understand the

:32:06. > :32:15.honourable gentleman's party voted to support our pay policy earlier

:32:16. > :32:19.this year. The IFS has estimated that Labour's proposal will cost ?9

:32:20. > :32:24.billion per year which is double what was in the manifesto. Given

:32:25. > :32:29.that would involve such significant borrowing, does the chief Secretary

:32:30. > :32:34.agreed that when we borrow a pay interest, our interest Bill is ?50

:32:35. > :32:40.billion per year. That is ?50 billion less to invest in our public

:32:41. > :32:48.services. That is right. Also, future generations will pay for the

:32:49. > :32:54.services that we are enjoying today. That is wrong. We need to live

:32:55. > :33:00.within our means. Make sure people are properly rewarded. Make sure we

:33:01. > :33:03.are fair between public and private sectors. That is what this

:33:04. > :33:12.Government's ballast policy is achieving. My union represents

:33:13. > :33:20.workers from across the public sector. Nurses, teachers, cleaners,

:33:21. > :33:25.they are not subject to increments and asking when they will get fair

:33:26. > :33:30.pay for the hard work they do for all of us. Would she agree that in

:33:31. > :33:41.light of increases in inflation and living standards,... Our policy

:33:42. > :33:45.balances the need to make sure that people are properly remunerated.

:33:46. > :33:49.That is what the pay review bodies look at. Also to make sure that

:33:50. > :33:52.those public sector services are sustainable in the long term. As

:33:53. > :33:57.well as making sure people are properly paid, the wider package is

:33:58. > :34:06.as good as possible, we need to make sure those jobs are protected and

:34:07. > :34:10.secure in the long term. Does the Minister agree with me that as a

:34:11. > :34:21.result of Labour's economic mismanagement in 2008 - 2009,

:34:22. > :34:30.average wages... The question must be heard. Everyone in this Chamber

:34:31. > :34:36.must be heard. Thank you. As a result of Labour's economic

:34:37. > :34:43.mismanagement in 2008-2009, average private sector pay fell

:34:44. > :34:47.significantly while public sector pay remains stable. Will the

:34:48. > :34:51.Minister agree with me that it is very important when we look at the

:34:52. > :34:55.pay review body but make recommendations, we recognise the

:34:56. > :35:02.real challenges faced by small businesses when they are outpaced by

:35:03. > :35:08.public sector earnings. And as small businesses, their employers are

:35:09. > :35:12.creating the majority of jobs in this country. Will she make sure

:35:13. > :35:19.those pay review bodies take into account the small business people's

:35:20. > :35:26.fuse in that process? We have got to a position where public sector pay

:35:27. > :35:31.is comparable with private sector pay and also public sector workers

:35:32. > :35:36.often have some pension entitlement on top of that. I think getting to a

:35:37. > :35:41.position where they are comparable for the skills that those people

:35:42. > :35:45.have is fair. It is forever those businesses who we need to create

:35:46. > :35:51.wealth in our country so we can find those public services. Therefore

:35:52. > :35:55.both workers in private and public sector. I do not think there is

:35:56. > :35:59.anything much more important than getting people into work, giving

:36:00. > :36:02.people the sense of pride, responsibility, the ability to earn

:36:03. > :36:06.for themselves and their family. Nothing is more important than that

:36:07. > :36:10.and this Government should be proud of what we have achieved. The lowest

:36:11. > :36:16.levels of unemployment since 1975. It is very dangerous, the idea that

:36:17. > :36:20.we would either put that had risk by making our public finances

:36:21. > :36:27.unsustainable, by pricing small businesses out of the market. I see

:36:28. > :36:31.the father of the House is leaving the Chamber but I hope the calm and

:36:32. > :36:33.serenity you brought to the Chamber will linger with us for some time to

:36:34. > :36:49.come. This issue is also about Furness, a

:36:50. > :36:54.word I have heard repeatedly. Liverpool clinical Commission group

:36:55. > :37:04.paid themselves increases of between 15 and 81%, a nonexecutive getting

:37:05. > :37:08.?105,000. An NHS investigation confirmed this is far outside the

:37:09. > :37:14.rules yet the accountable officer and the governing body have not been

:37:15. > :37:17.held to account. Does this send a message from the Government to the

:37:18. > :37:26.NHS that you can do what you want, and that the take-up will be

:37:27. > :37:28.selectively applied and is not fair? It is important that all public

:37:29. > :37:41.sector bodies stick within the rules. I draw the House's attention

:37:42. > :37:47.to my declaration as a working NHS Dr. My right honourable friend has

:37:48. > :37:52.told rightly about the effect that increments have on progression pay

:37:53. > :37:57.and those who have received an increase. In the NHS, there are

:37:58. > :38:03.500,000 staff at the top of the pay scale who have received in real

:38:04. > :38:09.terms pay is lies. They work above and beyond the call of duty, they

:38:10. > :38:11.gave up their days of back when there were terrorist attacks in

:38:12. > :38:17.London and Manchester. They need a pay rise. Would she recognise that

:38:18. > :38:23.many are turning to agency, the local agency Bill in the NHS is ?4

:38:24. > :38:26.billion advising and part of dealing with the local agency cost is

:38:27. > :38:41.increasing the pay of permanent staff? Doctors and other medical

:38:42. > :38:48.staff do a vital job and have faced big challenges. I agree. We are

:38:49. > :38:54.reducing the agency spent over time in the NHS. What I think is

:38:55. > :38:58.important is that we look over all at the affordability for the public

:38:59. > :39:01.sector and that is the remit that the independent pay review bodies

:39:02. > :39:08.take. They hear the evidence from the experts on the front line, they

:39:09. > :39:11.make the recommendation, and we accepted the recommendation for

:39:12. > :39:16.doctors that was put forward to us. We accepted the recommendation for

:39:17. > :39:25.nurses and other NHS workers as well. We respect that pay review

:39:26. > :39:31.body process. Put simply, does the chief Secretary think it's fair that

:39:32. > :39:35.public sector workers facing a cap, face for example a rise from 55 and

:39:36. > :39:47.7% in energy prices at a time when the chief executive of SSE has had a

:39:48. > :39:54.70% increase in his pay? Is that fair? We are taking action as a

:39:55. > :40:03.Government on energy costs. We are as I have said making sure that

:40:04. > :40:09.public sector workers increased increments in addition to the 1%. We

:40:10. > :40:15.are taking action to raise the tax threshold so people on basic rate

:40:16. > :40:19.are now paying ?1000 less tax. The honourable gentleman needs to take

:40:20. > :40:26.account of the whole package. I think he is cherry picking some

:40:27. > :40:31.bits. Is the chief Secretary of the Treasury aware that the Scottish

:40:32. > :40:36.Government sets pay for 485,000 public sector workers, close to 90%

:40:37. > :40:39.of the total public sector workers in Scotland. Would she agree with

:40:40. > :40:43.the statement of the Cabinet Secretary for health on the 10th of

:40:44. > :40:47.May in the Scottish Parliament when the Scottish Government voted

:40:48. > :40:50.against a pay increase for NHS staff that we believe there can continue

:40:51. > :41:01.to be value in the independent pay review process and is she as -- is

:41:02. > :41:08.she aware of the Nuffield trust report that there is an? It is nice

:41:09. > :41:12.to have one of my Scottish colleagues point out about the fact

:41:13. > :41:18.what is happening in Scotland when we have seen the SNP failed to

:41:19. > :41:21.deliver, worse performance in the Scottish NHS, school standards in

:41:22. > :41:30.Scotland fall, and that is a huge shame. You are a very excitable

:41:31. > :41:44.Denison of the House. -- denizen. I hope you will simmer down, Mr

:41:45. > :41:52.Stevens, and regain your composure. The change for NHS staff finally but

:41:53. > :41:56.them on a fair rate of pay with an independent pay review body. Since

:41:57. > :42:03.2010, the Coalition Government and Tory governments have systematically

:42:04. > :42:10.undermines pay rates by capping and freezing wages. This Government all

:42:11. > :42:21.too ready to discount is fantastic. It would see that a fair pay award

:42:22. > :42:25.is just that, a fantasy. The honourable lady does not acknowledge

:42:26. > :42:31.that over half of those people on agenda for change are receiving

:42:32. > :42:41.average incremental pay of 3.3% of the. My right honourable friend will

:42:42. > :42:45.be aware that the NHS has attracted workers from across the EU

:42:46. > :42:48.particularly in nursing. In looking at how we set public sector pay,

:42:49. > :42:54.will she look at international comparisons across the EU to ensure

:42:55. > :42:58.that the pay is set in such a way as to continue to attract these very

:42:59. > :43:01.much needed staff to Britain and does she have any data which she has

:43:02. > :43:12.been able to consider on this so far? The pay review bodies are

:43:13. > :43:20.responsible for gathering the data about how we ensure that we retain

:43:21. > :43:24.and recruit the high-quality staff we need in our NHS and certainly

:43:25. > :43:28.that is something I note they looked at and their report this year. And

:43:29. > :43:39.I'm sure they will look at in the future. In the exceedingly fine city

:43:40. > :43:42.of Norwich, we have three NHS trusts, two local authorities and a

:43:43. > :43:46.teaching hospital, thousands of public sector workers to contribute

:43:47. > :43:50.to our economy and who at present are struggling to make ends meet.

:43:51. > :43:54.Surely this Government must understand that posterity is dying

:43:55. > :43:58.at his feet, investing these people, left the public sector pay cap, and

:43:59. > :44:08.invest in Norwich's local economy. It is a win- win for everyone. I

:44:09. > :44:13.would say to my fellow Norfolk MP we are seeing improved public services

:44:14. > :44:18.in Norfolk including the health service and local schools. That is a

:44:19. > :44:22.result of this Government reform and services, investing in them and also

:44:23. > :44:31.making sure people are receiving pay that helps retain and recruit the

:44:32. > :44:36.best possible start. -- staff. I understand it is independent and

:44:37. > :44:42.will remain so but what is the context for those pay bodies? When

:44:43. > :44:46.they make reviews, will they take into account historic pay rises, the

:44:47. > :44:53.cost of living and extra influences such as Brexit?

:44:54. > :45:01.The answer is reset the remit further Peabody last year. Those

:45:02. > :45:06.reports have all been submitted. We have already responded to some of

:45:07. > :45:11.them, there are further reports to respond in due course and later on

:45:12. > :45:15.this year, we will set the remit for the 1890 Peabody 's.

:45:16. > :45:29.. What we are doing is talking up the commitment of the people who

:45:30. > :45:35.work of them despite the return of government and the way they are

:45:36. > :45:39.treating them. When she looks at job satisfaction, what contributes to

:45:40. > :45:44.job satisfaction is having time to spend with patients the nurses need.

:45:45. > :45:49.The NHS is under such strain, they cannot spend time with the nurses

:45:50. > :45:57.because there is so much demand. Why will she not do it through the pay

:45:58. > :46:04.review? The honourable lady has just topped the MH S down in the question

:46:05. > :46:09.she has just asked. -- NHS. The NHS is doing a tremendous job. We are

:46:10. > :46:15.reducing the bureaucracy be so nurses can spend more of their time

:46:16. > :46:19.with patients. The Health Secretary is driving an agenda of reform,

:46:20. > :46:27.which is delivering better public services. It is worth remembering

:46:28. > :46:31.that had the Labour Party won the general election after the great

:46:32. > :46:36.recession, they committed to tough action on pay, including other 1%

:46:37. > :46:53.cap on public sector pay. Does my honourable friend think that because

:46:54. > :47:05.they do not... I think it is an issue of false consciousness on the

:47:06. > :47:08.opposition front bench. Karen Smith. The pay review bodies operate within

:47:09. > :47:15.a budget that is set by government. It is a political decision to not

:47:16. > :47:23.accept a recommendation. Therefore I was in Parliament I served as an NHS

:47:24. > :47:27.manager. They play a crucial role in both patient care and safety. Would

:47:28. > :47:31.she agree that the equity of treatment in relation to be is

:47:32. > :47:38.crucial forcing managers and all levels of management and the health

:47:39. > :47:45.service to ensure the best recruitment and retention of the

:47:46. > :47:50.best. We have accepted all of the recommendations of the pay review

:47:51. > :47:56.bodies that we have reported on so far this year. And they are able to

:47:57. > :48:01.make sure -- able to the recommendations they feel fit. They

:48:02. > :48:04.are independent and what the advisers and they have to take

:48:05. > :48:16.account of areas like retention and recruitment. Unemployment has fallen

:48:17. > :48:20.63% in my constituency since 2010 and I have many nurses and teachers

:48:21. > :48:25.working in my constituency. But I also have care workers Conor, all of

:48:26. > :48:30.them have benefited from the tax changes introduced by this

:48:31. > :48:36.government which means they have an extra ?1000 in their pockets, in

:48:37. > :48:42.their take-home pay. Will the Chief Secretary agree with me that by

:48:43. > :48:50.doing it through tax changes it doesn't discriminate between private

:48:51. > :48:54.sector or public sector workers? Private and public sector workers

:48:55. > :48:59.both have a vital part to play in the economy of this country and by

:49:00. > :49:06.taking people out of tax we have reduced the tax bills of basic rate

:49:07. > :49:12.tax payers by ?1000. The opposition, instead, are proposing to have the

:49:13. > :49:16.highest levels of taxation in this country's peacetime history. And who

:49:17. > :49:20.do we think that will fall on? It would follow in precisely the people

:49:21. > :49:29.that we have been talking about and today's debate. Questions and

:49:30. > :49:36.answers will need to be shorter. They are becoming ever longer as the

:49:37. > :49:40.session has proceeded. 55% of public sector workers are not covered by

:49:41. > :49:45.review bodies, including most of our own civil servants and some of those

:49:46. > :49:51.on the very lowest incomes. Will the chief secretary give any hope that

:49:52. > :49:53.real pay rises will be considered further 3 million public sector

:49:54. > :50:02.employees without a review body and what will be the mechanism for doing

:50:03. > :50:08.so? As for those people who are under the purview of the pay review

:50:09. > :50:13.bodies, we also need to make sure that we are retaining and recruiting

:50:14. > :50:23.the best possible civil servants, at the same time as making sure that it

:50:24. > :50:26.is affordable for the public purse. Has the Shadow Chancellor knows, the

:50:27. > :50:31.former Prime Minister did not say it was selfish for a dedicated public

:50:32. > :50:35.service workers to ask for a pay rise. He argued it is selfish and

:50:36. > :50:40.immoral for politicians to offer benefits to the voters of today paid

:50:41. > :50:47.by the voters of tomorrow. Would my right honourable friend agree that

:50:48. > :50:53.it is a important to balance their pay in the public sector with

:50:54. > :50:58.passing on a strong economy not saddled by DAC? My honourable friend

:50:59. > :51:03.makes an excellent points. We need to make sure our public finances are

:51:04. > :51:07.properly sustainable so we can find those public services in the future.

:51:08. > :51:18.And so we do not burden the next generation. Will the chief secretary

:51:19. > :51:22.right to the cheers of all the pay review bodies because those serving

:51:23. > :51:26.on pay review bodies are incredibly frustrated and asked them to set out

:51:27. > :51:32.the true cost of a nurse, a teacher, a soldier, and therefore report back

:51:33. > :51:39.to this parliament so that we can assess the independence of their

:51:40. > :51:44.research? I am sure the honourable lady is aware of that all of the

:51:45. > :51:48.documentation of this year's PE process will be published so she

:51:49. > :51:53.will be to see the research they have looked at, the people that they

:51:54. > :51:56.have interviewed, in coming to the determination they have. And in due

:51:57. > :52:02.course I will be writing to the public sector, sorry the pay review

:52:03. > :52:11.bodies, for the remit for the following year. Thank you, Mr

:52:12. > :52:16.Speaker. Public sector workers are the guardians of a nation in terms

:52:17. > :52:20.of our security, our health, our education and infrastructure. So we

:52:21. > :52:25.need to do something for the lower paid. Can I suggest to my honourable

:52:26. > :52:29.friend, given that corporation tax receipts have increased by 21% in

:52:30. > :52:34.the past year, the revenues have increased. Can we not have a special

:52:35. > :52:41.redistribution fund where we use those increased revenues to help the

:52:42. > :52:45.lowest paid public sector workers? I thank my honourable friend for his

:52:46. > :52:49.question. He will be aware that the flexibility we give the pay review

:52:50. > :52:56.bodies is such that they can decide to give higher rises to those on the

:52:57. > :52:59.lowest incomes in the public sector, and also point out that those on the

:53:00. > :53:03.lowest incomes have benefited most from the raising of the personal

:53:04. > :53:07.allowance as well. So there are various ways in which we need to

:53:08. > :53:15.make sure we support those on the lowest levels of pay. The Scottish

:53:16. > :53:20.Government announced last week that it is lifting the pay cap. And the

:53:21. > :53:29.Labour Welsh government as the ability to do the same thing. But in

:53:30. > :53:36.reality and labour in Wales as... 30,000 Welsh nurses are having their

:53:37. > :53:39.pay cut in real terms. I would like them to explain to Welsh workers

:53:40. > :53:47.wide beaver mean the lowest paid country in the United Kingdom? That

:53:48. > :53:53.isn't the sort -- devolved issue and an issue for the Welsh government.

:53:54. > :54:02.-- that is a devolved issue. I am close to this debate. I served in

:54:03. > :54:07.Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service. I am aware of the good work my

:54:08. > :54:18.colleagues do. I have two daughters in nursing. Wine is an exhilarating

:54:19. > :54:22.nurse. I am not hearing... What I'm hearing from the benches opposite.

:54:23. > :54:27.They seem to enjoy their work, they worked very hard. My colleagues in

:54:28. > :54:32.their service work hard. Is there a risk that if we continue to give

:54:33. > :54:36.increased wages to the public sector, that causes a spiral,

:54:37. > :54:47.inflation goes up on mortgages go up. It is the value of your

:54:48. > :54:54.take-home aid in your pay packet. The honourable gentleman points out

:54:55. > :55:00.the impact on the economy if we see unsustainable increases. We do need

:55:01. > :55:06.to look at the overall package of part lick sector workers, the

:55:07. > :55:10.reduced taxes that most public sector workers are paying. -- public

:55:11. > :55:18.sector workers. And other areas like training. We need to make sure that

:55:19. > :55:22.any pay raises are sustainable. I am sure you agree that public servants

:55:23. > :55:28.are the backbone of our country. But the average full-time public sector

:55:29. > :55:32.employee will have lost ?4073 in real terms by 2020 because of the

:55:33. > :55:40.decisions of this real -- this government. Does she think that is

:55:41. > :55:43.fair? I do not recognise the figure that the honourable lady has put

:55:44. > :55:48.forward. I have outlined earlier that we have seen increments are

:55:49. > :55:53.nearly as like teaching, in areas like nursing, and in the armed

:55:54. > :55:58.services. Of course, we need to make sure we have got the balance between

:55:59. > :56:02.fairness and affordability. I outlined earlier. But that is what

:56:03. > :56:07.we have been doing. That is why we have been able to sustain high

:56:08. > :56:10.quality public services, at the same time as reducing the deficit and

:56:11. > :56:16.leading to the lowest unemployment we have seen for 40 years. The

:56:17. > :56:20.factors with unsustainable introduce in public spending we would see

:56:21. > :56:28.higher taxes, higher interest rates and a much worse outcome for working

:56:29. > :56:33.people in this country. -- increases. The fact that we are

:56:34. > :56:37.spending more on debt interest ban on a school encapsulates why we

:56:38. > :56:42.should be fear across the generations when it comes to setting

:56:43. > :56:46.a public sector pay. Does she agree with me there is nothing right or

:56:47. > :56:55.moral in making cheap promises based on money we do not have? The Labour

:56:56. > :57:04.government left us in a position of having a huge deficits and a huge

:57:05. > :57:06.debt which we have had to deal worth over the last Parliament and

:57:07. > :57:12.continues to hang over us. And that is why the only path is a

:57:13. > :57:17.sustainable path of making sure that we grow our economy, we can enjoy

:57:18. > :57:28.even better public services and we can see people's pay increases

:57:29. > :57:34.across the board. I think it is safer the chamber to hear from Mr

:57:35. > :57:38.Chris Stephens. As a passionate trade unionist for 20 years, my

:57:39. > :57:46.notion sometimes get the better of me. Can I ask the chief strategy of

:57:47. > :57:50.the Treasury to confirm that he is so low in some government

:57:51. > :57:55.departments that 40% of employees of these departments receipt of tax

:57:56. > :57:58.credits. Can I ask if she will publish each government department

:57:59. > :58:05.how many employees are in receipt of tax credits? -- Chief Secretary of

:58:06. > :58:11.the Treasury. We pay good rates of pay across the civil service. We

:58:12. > :58:16.need to make sure that it is sustainable and that we can carry on

:58:17. > :58:23.making sure that we have good services, both in the civil service

:58:24. > :58:28.and the waders public sector. -- wider. The public are rightly so fed

:58:29. > :58:33.up with politicians playing politics with the NHS so let's listen to what

:58:34. > :58:39.the NHS pay review board has evidence and Z. Is my honourable

:58:40. > :58:42.friend aware that the NHS pay review board has said, we do not see

:58:43. > :58:51.significant recruitment issues related to pay. That is exactly why

:58:52. > :58:56.we have independent pay review bodies, is to give us impartial

:58:57. > :59:03.advice and make recommendations. And we accepted the recommendation that

:59:04. > :59:09.that body made in full. NHS consultants in my constituency tell

:59:10. > :59:14.me that morale in the NHS is at an all-time low and that is leading to

:59:15. > :59:18.recruitment and retention. I understand that certain members of

:59:19. > :59:22.the Cabinet are in favour of ending their public sector pay cap. Will

:59:23. > :59:26.the government heed their calls and give public sector workers the pay

:59:27. > :59:33.rise they deserve? I am not sure if she has heard the last hour of

:59:34. > :59:36.discussion we have been having. We need to maintain sustainable public

:59:37. > :59:37.finances at the same time as being fair to workers in the public

:59:38. > :59:51.sector. In my mind to constituency, the

:59:52. > :00:00.local NHS Trust has been crippled by the PFI deal. The money could have

:00:01. > :00:02.been used for pay rises. Does the chief Secretary agreed that sound

:00:03. > :00:10.economic planning in the health service is the best way to provide

:00:11. > :00:14.their pay in the future? PFI is yet another example of how the Labour

:00:15. > :00:21.Party spend money that they did not have and left future public service

:00:22. > :00:28.organisations schools and hospitals with debts that they are now having

:00:29. > :00:35.to deal with. Which is why we should not heed the irresponsible collars

:00:36. > :00:39.from the party officer. Can I start by suggesting to the Minister that

:00:40. > :00:44.when she tried to draw a distinction between taxpayers and public

:00:45. > :00:48.service, public servants are taxpayers. She cannot continue to

:00:49. > :01:01.draw that Andre distinction. Could I introduce mathematics to this? 1.2%

:01:02. > :01:08.and 2.2%, but pay is capped at 1%, would the Minister acknowledged that

:01:09. > :01:13.is a real time squeeze? In the election just on the Prime Minister

:01:14. > :01:18.was challenged about using food banks and the Prime Minister said it

:01:19. > :01:24.was a complex issue. How much does she attributed the pay gap to the

:01:25. > :01:33.complex issue? We have the 1%. We also have incremental pay in many of

:01:34. > :01:42.those public service professions. 2.4% in the Armed Forces, 3.3% in

:01:43. > :01:45.the teacher 's in 2015, 16. The party officer that need to tell

:01:46. > :01:52.people about the whole picture and not cherry pick particular numbers.

:01:53. > :01:59.I'm sure the Secretary will agree with me that public sector members

:02:00. > :02:05.are taxpayers. We need to look at the whole picture including the

:02:06. > :02:11.major tax cuts since 2010 for those on the lowest wages. The party

:02:12. > :02:16.opposite wants to count some things in their sums but not other things.

:02:17. > :02:29.They are picking numbers rather than looking at the big picture. Would

:02:30. > :02:35.the Minister please confirm that new Government guilds about a 10% but

:02:36. > :02:38.that ingest rate is likely to rise as are the cost to this country

:02:39. > :02:45.which will mean less money for our public services? He is right to

:02:46. > :02:51.point out the macro economic picture. The fact that if we do not

:02:52. > :02:56.have a confident deficit reduction plan which this Government has

:02:57. > :02:59.pursued by the last seven years, the financial markets will lose

:03:00. > :03:06.confidence and the effect on working people would be a rise in interest

:03:07. > :03:14.rates, a rise in housing costs, and problems for the Government in terms

:03:15. > :03:17.of our borrowing. Mr Speaker, to declare an interest, my wife is a

:03:18. > :03:26.primary school teacher currently working as a teaching assistant.

:03:27. > :03:33.Will the Chief Secretary ensure that the rising cost of living and the

:03:34. > :03:36.independent pay review body recommendations are properly taken

:03:37. > :03:43.into consideration when setting public pay policy for next year's

:03:44. > :03:47.settlements? That is one of the factors that the pay review bodies

:03:48. > :03:55.look at along with areas like recruitment, retention, making sure

:03:56. > :03:57.that the pay settlement is affordable. They have the

:03:58. > :04:03.responsibility of speaking to people like your wife who work in the

:04:04. > :04:06.public services, hearing what they have to say and making a

:04:07. > :04:10.determination. There are different issues across different public

:04:11. > :04:17.services and I think it is wrong to suggest this is a one size fits all.

:04:18. > :04:22.The Shadow Chancellor mentioned inequality. In fact, income

:04:23. > :04:30.inequality is down since 2010 and now the top 1% will pay 27% of all

:04:31. > :04:33.income tax. A higher proportion than ever it was under Labour. Doesn't

:04:34. > :04:38.this show that the Labour Party tried to talk tough when it comes to

:04:39. > :04:44.a quality but it comes to the Conservatives to deliver? The Shadow

:04:45. > :04:56.Chancellor does not like the fact to get in the way of his rants. Point

:04:57. > :04:59.of order. I fail to declare the fact that my wife is a primary school

:05:00. > :05:05.teacher as I did when I asked another relevant question and I

:05:06. > :05:13.apologise and thank you for allowing me to correct the record. Thank you

:05:14. > :05:25.for putting that on the record. Statement, the Minister of... I

:05:26. > :05:35.would like to update the House on the ongoing work to rehouse the

:05:36. > :05:39.victims of Grenfell Tower stop three weeks have not passed. It soon

:05:40. > :05:43.became clear that the delivery of the initials response on the ground

:05:44. > :05:49.was simply not the norm. Since then, much has been done to support

:05:50. > :05:57.victims. To see that justice is done and ensure that other buildings

:05:58. > :06:00.around the country are safe throughout, our first priority has

:06:01. > :06:04.been helping victims who have suffered such an unspeakable trauma.

:06:05. > :06:09.We have been working hard to ensure they have all the help they need.

:06:10. > :06:15.Securing emergency accommodation and making financial and emotional

:06:16. > :06:18.support available as quickly as possible. The response efforts have

:06:19. > :06:28.been coordinated by the Grenfell Tower this post -- response team. It

:06:29. > :06:31.has been drawn from local councils, wider Government sector, voluntary

:06:32. > :06:35.sector, police, health and Fire Service as well as central

:06:36. > :06:42.Government. I would like to express my heartfelt thanks to them for all

:06:43. > :06:47.their immense efforts of the last few weeks. The new leader of the

:06:48. > :06:53.Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, Elizabeth Campbell, has

:06:54. > :06:56.given a apology for the inadequate initial response. She has asked for

:06:57. > :07:03.help from central Government to put things right. As the committee

:07:04. > :07:07.Secretary set out in a written statement, we will establish an

:07:08. > :07:10.independent task force to help the Royal Borough of Kensington and

:07:11. > :07:16.Chelsea build the capability to deal with the longer-term challenge of

:07:17. > :07:19.recovery. The Prime Minister promised that we would make an offer

:07:20. > :07:25.of temporary housing to all of those who lost their homes as a result of

:07:26. > :07:29.the fire within three weeks. These are good quality, fully furnished

:07:30. > :07:34.homes that families can move on from emergency accommodation and live

:07:35. > :07:39.rent free in a proper home whilst permanent accommodation on equal

:07:40. > :07:53.terms is found. 115 families from Grenfell Tower and Walk have been

:07:54. > :07:57.identified needing such outing. I can confirm that every family has

:07:58. > :08:02.been offered a temporary home. 139 have received offers of

:08:03. > :08:07.accommodation. 19 families have not yet been ready to engage in this

:08:08. > :08:11.process. We need to respect that. Some are still in hospital as a

:08:12. > :08:15.result of their injuries. In some cases, the people on the grounds

:08:16. > :08:19.offering the family support have been clear it would be inappropriate

:08:20. > :08:24.at this time to ask them to make a decision about where they will live.

:08:25. > :08:31.These families, Mr Speaker, have been through unimaginable trauma. We

:08:32. > :08:37.need to go as debased that they want to go. What matters above all else

:08:38. > :08:42.is what the individually want. The Grenfell Tower 's response team has

:08:43. > :08:47.been working with 139 families currently engage with the process to

:08:48. > :08:51.match them with appropriate debris accommodation and talk to them about

:08:52. > :08:57.their long-term needs. The housing team has identified and secured over

:08:58. > :09:05.200 good quality property so that residents can have a choice of where

:09:06. > :09:09.to live some I know have raised concerns about the quality. All

:09:10. > :09:14.properties have been inspected by the housing team to make sure they

:09:15. > :09:18.are in a good condition. My right honourable friend the Communities

:09:19. > :09:23.Secretary personally as seen an example of the kind of property on

:09:24. > :09:26.offer. Representatives of local residents groups have been a steward

:09:27. > :09:33.of the quality and seen them. If the shadow minister would find it

:09:34. > :09:41.helpful, I would like to visit some of these properties with him to

:09:42. > :09:45.insure him of equality. The properties are local. This means

:09:46. > :09:49.that families can continue to go to the same GP, the near vendor

:09:50. > :09:54.relatives and send children to the same school. 14 of us are temporary

:09:55. > :09:59.accommodation have been accepted, three families have moved in, and I

:10:00. > :10:02.expect this family to increase -- I expect this number to increase but

:10:03. > :10:06.we have to respect the pace at which the families which to move. I have

:10:07. > :10:11.personally met over 30 of the families affected directly. From

:10:12. > :10:17.talking to them I understand there are many reasons they are reluctant

:10:18. > :10:21.to take up these offers. Some might choose to remain in hotels until

:10:22. > :10:24.they have a permanent tenancy offer. We understand one of the big issues

:10:25. > :10:30.holding people back is the lack of trust. Some families were told they

:10:31. > :10:34.were moving into Grenfell Tower on it every basis and then, years

:10:35. > :10:39.later, they were still there. Their concerns are entirely

:10:40. > :10:43.understandable. That is trust that we need to work out to earn. We also

:10:44. > :10:49.have to respect their decision that they do not wish to move out of

:10:50. > :10:52.temporary accommodation before permanent housing is available. We

:10:53. > :10:57.will keep on making offers to families of local homes we think

:10:58. > :11:00.would be suitable for them. No one, Mr Speaker, will be forced into a

:11:01. > :11:05.home that they do not want to move into. A number of reports have been

:11:06. > :11:12.made claiming people are being told to move far from London. Or that

:11:13. > :11:19.they may be deemed homeless if they do not accept an offer. I want to be

:11:20. > :11:23.clear to the House, if this is ever suggested to a victim, then it is

:11:24. > :11:28.completely unacceptable. I have already stated that if anyone is

:11:29. > :11:30.aware of an individual family not receiving the offer we have

:11:31. > :11:36.promised, please tell me. We will fix this. I repeat that called to

:11:37. > :11:40.the House now. Let me set out again what the Government has committed to

:11:41. > :11:45.do. Every household debt is ready to talk has been offered temporary

:11:46. > :11:49.accommodation. -- puzzle that is ready to talk. We'll continue to

:11:50. > :11:54.work with families to make sure their needs are met. Everyone whose

:11:55. > :11:59.home was destroyed by the fire will be guaranteed a new home on the same

:12:00. > :12:04.terms as the one they lost. This means paying the same rent with the

:12:05. > :12:07.same level of security and in the same area. And when it comes to

:12:08. > :12:11.permanent housing, we have already announced a new block of social

:12:12. > :12:18.housing that will provide 68 new homes in Kensington. We're working

:12:19. > :12:21.with a number of developers to develop similar properties either in

:12:22. > :12:27.Kensington and Chelsea are very close to North Kensington. So that

:12:28. > :12:32.families can stay in the same area. These negotiations are not yet

:12:33. > :12:35.concluded and we need to work closely with residents to make sure

:12:36. > :12:39.that the sort of properties we are able to make available will match

:12:40. > :12:43.what they want. There are 17 leaseholders who lost their homes

:12:44. > :12:48.and we're making sure do not lose out financially because of the fire.

:12:49. > :12:52.I met with a group of the leaseholders and we are working with

:12:53. > :12:58.them individually to find the right solution for them. On my visit to

:12:59. > :13:00.the Westway, hearing the harrowing accounts of survivors has been the

:13:01. > :13:14.most humbling and moving The families that I've met have been

:13:15. > :13:18.through unimaginable pain. This is a tragedy that should never have

:13:19. > :13:22.happened. And we are determined to do all that we can to make sure

:13:23. > :13:29.something like this never happens again. Sir John Healey. Thank you Mr

:13:30. > :13:36.Speaker, can I welcome the Minister to this dispatch box for his first

:13:37. > :13:39.oral statement in this job. And thank him for the copy of his

:13:40. > :13:45.statement. Can I also had the thanks from our site to John Balladur and

:13:46. > :13:50.the emergency response team as well as to the community organisations

:13:51. > :13:55.still supporting survivors. The Minister has had a testing first few

:13:56. > :14:00.weeks. I hope he knows now that whatever he says it is the

:14:01. > :14:06.government's actions that count in getting Grenville Tower residents to

:14:07. > :14:09.help and new housing they need. -- Grenfell Tower residents. And giving

:14:10. > :14:15.the wider local community in North Kensington the confidence that what

:14:16. > :14:19.is promised will be done. I have to say to him, the government's been

:14:20. > :14:24.slow to act, it's been off the pace at each stage following this

:14:25. > :14:29.terrible tragedy. And it's clear from this statement that in some

:14:30. > :14:34.ways it still is. After the fire, in this house, the Prime Minister said,

:14:35. > :14:41.and I quote "I have fixed a deadline of three weeks for everybody

:14:42. > :14:48.affected to be found a home nearby". Three weeks are up. Get whole

:14:49. > :14:51.families who have lost everything -- yet whole families who have lost

:14:52. > :14:56.everything are still in hotels and hostels. Just three of the 158

:14:57. > :15:01.families from Grenfell Tower have moved into a fresh home. And these

:15:02. > :15:05.are only temporary, not what the Prime Minister first set. Plus only

:15:06. > :15:10.11 others have so far been found somewhere that they feel they can

:15:11. > :15:16.say yes to. So why have so few families been successfully matched

:15:17. > :15:20.with fresh accommodation? And is it the case, as I've been told, some

:15:21. > :15:27.have been offered accommodation with too few bedrooms, or in another

:15:28. > :15:32.tower block, or, indeed, with bizarre conditions attached,

:15:33. > :15:37.including milk overnight stay for family or friends. -- including no

:15:38. > :15:42.overnight stay. A hotel room is no home and temporary housing is no

:15:43. > :15:46.place to rebuild shattered lives. So when, when will all those now

:15:47. > :15:53.homeless from the fire be offered a new permanent home? The Minister

:15:54. > :15:58.mentioned the 68 homes in Kensington Road, in that development. They were

:15:59. > :16:01.already allocated for social housing, so how many extra social

:16:02. > :16:06.homes as the government or the Council made available in the

:16:07. > :16:10.borough? Will the government guaranteed the number of new social

:16:11. > :16:15.homes planned before the fire will be increased by at least the number

:16:16. > :16:18.needed now as a result of the fire? And what assessment has the

:16:19. > :16:23.government made with the mea of London and the other London boroughs

:16:24. > :16:29.of the knock-on consequences on temporary accommodation, social

:16:30. > :16:33.housing and council waiting list across the city. The Minister

:16:34. > :16:38.mentioned a recovering task force for Kensington and Chelsea. This is

:16:39. > :16:43.the task force sent in now to take over from the task force sent in

:16:44. > :16:49.three weeks ago. Kensington and Chelsea is a failing council. It has

:16:50. > :16:54.even fails to admit it is failing. And the fundamental concern about

:16:55. > :17:00.this council is not just capability, it's the total lack of trust that

:17:01. > :17:05.residents or anyone else had in it. And the government concedes this by

:17:06. > :17:09.sending in the task force. Yet leaves the Council in charge. We on

:17:10. > :17:14.this site, Mr Speaker, want the task force to work, but doubt that it

:17:15. > :17:18.will. It can advise, but it cannot act. It lacks the powers of decision

:17:19. > :17:25.or action that commissioners would bring. And public confidence in this

:17:26. > :17:28.council will just not be restored by replacing one set of leaders by

:17:29. > :17:36.politicians from the same ruling group. So what will be the tests for

:17:37. > :17:40.this task force? And what will be the tests for further council

:17:41. > :17:46.failings before ministers take the full intervention steps needed as

:17:47. > :17:50.they have in other areas? And finally, Mr Speaker, the fears

:17:51. > :17:55.following the fire go well beyond Grenfell Tower, as do the

:17:56. > :18:00.consequences. Hundreds of thousands of people whose homes are in

:18:01. > :18:05.high-rise blocks across the rest of the country want to know their homes

:18:06. > :18:10.are safe. And this means the full building has been tested for fire

:18:11. > :18:13.safety. Not just one component of the cladding outside. All

:18:14. > :18:21.replacement cladding and fire prevention works necessary to

:18:22. > :18:26.guarantee safety are done. And that no remedial action is delayed, or

:18:27. > :18:30.not done, because the council or housing association hasn't got the

:18:31. > :18:36.funding. So how much funding as the government set aside for these

:18:37. > :18:41.costs? Has the Treasury agreed access to the contingency fund, and

:18:42. > :18:47.will he today, to give reassurance to tower block residents, make the

:18:48. > :18:52.clear commitment to full upfront funding for whatever work is needed

:18:53. > :18:57.to make these high-rise homes safe? When ministers have rightly said you

:18:58. > :19:07.can't put a price on people's lives, this is what it means. Mr Speaker I

:19:08. > :19:12.thank the Right Honourable gentleman for his comments. Perhaps I can take

:19:13. > :19:14.interim appointees raised. First, in terms of actions, they think we've

:19:15. > :19:19.been very clear, the Prime Minister has made clear the initial response

:19:20. > :19:22.wasn't good enough. She said that at the dispatch box. My ministry

:19:23. > :19:27.colleagues and I have been engaged in meetings with the community

:19:28. > :19:31.individual basis but also in terms of community meetings. That work

:19:32. > :19:37.will continue. The three-week offer the right honourable gentleman

:19:38. > :19:41.refers to was to make sure that we offered people who wanted to the

:19:42. > :19:46.temporary accommodation. He's talked about numbers. As I said, we're

:19:47. > :19:51.working with all the families involved and I would expect that

:19:52. > :19:54.number to rise. I know he will acknowledge, I know everyone in the

:19:55. > :19:58.house will acknowledge, it is not up to government, indeed any member in

:19:59. > :20:03.this house, to determine the pace at which families should move. That has

:20:04. > :20:08.to be up to them. We have to treat them with sensitivity. And that's

:20:09. > :20:15.very much what we're doing. He talked about whether people are

:20:16. > :20:19.being housed in tower blocks, that is not the case. I know there was

:20:20. > :20:23.initially some reporting about tower blocks. I believe that was in

:20:24. > :20:31.relation to emergency accommodation in hotels. That will tower blocks.

:20:32. > :20:37.We responded to that. He talked about the affordable housing. Can I

:20:38. > :20:42.just confirmed, Mr Speaker, Kensington Row was not designated

:20:43. > :20:46.social housing it was affordable housing, so this is a net increase.

:20:47. > :20:51.We are looking to provide a net increase in the number of homes in

:20:52. > :20:55.the social sector. He made reference to the task force, the independent

:20:56. > :21:04.recovery task force that has now been appointed. This will report

:21:05. > :21:08.directly to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. We

:21:09. > :21:12.should be in a position to announce further details over the coming

:21:13. > :21:17.weeks. I just want to be very clear about this, there's a special focus

:21:18. > :21:23.on this recovery task force on housing, regeneration and community

:21:24. > :21:28.engagement. Mr Speaker, the right honourable gentleman talked about

:21:29. > :21:32.high-rise blocks. And I do understand that those living in

:21:33. > :21:37.similar blocks across the country will have concerns. But that is why

:21:38. > :21:40.we acted immediately. We made sure we informed local authorities and

:21:41. > :21:45.housing associations of checks they needed to do. We put in place a

:21:46. > :21:49.regime for them to send us the cladding materials on any building

:21:50. > :21:55.they felt was suspect. That testing has been going on at pace. We've

:21:56. > :21:58.been very clear that local authorities and housing associations

:21:59. > :22:03.should do whatever is necessary to keep people safe. If there are

:22:04. > :22:05.issues to do with funding, we'll work with individual local

:22:06. > :22:10.authorities and housing associations. But it is absolutely

:22:11. > :22:19.vital that we make sure that everyone who lives in such a block

:22:20. > :22:25.is kept safe. He will also know that he talked about wider tests. When we

:22:26. > :22:29.wrote to local authorities and housing associations on the 22nd of

:22:30. > :22:33.June, we also asked to look at issues related to conciliation and

:22:34. > :22:35.to check that. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has

:22:36. > :22:41.appointed on the 27th of June an expert panel to advise on these

:22:42. > :22:47.matters. The expert panel met on Thursday the 29th of June and agreed

:22:48. > :22:49.that a range of matters it will look at, particularly to consider whether

:22:50. > :22:56.there are immediate initial actions to be taken to secure the safety of

:22:57. > :23:02.additional high-rise buildings. Mr Speaker, I know this is a subject

:23:03. > :23:05.that I wish we weren't here having to debate. But what I would say, I

:23:06. > :23:08.found this actually in the discussions I've had with colleagues

:23:09. > :23:14.from around the house, this is a time for us to be working together.

:23:15. > :23:18.There is a public inquiry. There is a criminal investigation underway.

:23:19. > :23:22.They will apportion blame and they will leave no stone unturned. This

:23:23. > :23:26.is the time for us to work together, so I say again to colleagues

:23:27. > :23:31.including the right honourable gentleman. If there are any

:23:32. > :23:36.individuals any of us feels are not getting the right level of support,

:23:37. > :23:41.please, come to me, I stand ready to assist and help. Mark Wolsey. It's

:23:42. > :23:45.very clear the Minister fully understands the very great

:23:46. > :23:48.challenges the residents face. Anyone who has had dealings with

:23:49. > :23:53.their local authority housing department will recognise the

:23:54. > :23:57.difficulties of quickly finding accommodation, particularly in an

:23:58. > :24:00.area of high housing demand such as North Kensington. And will perhaps

:24:01. > :24:04.understand a long-term solution will take time. I wonder if the Minister

:24:05. > :24:08.can provide reassurances to residents that their needs will be

:24:09. > :24:14.paramount and they'll be given a choice of housing suitable for their

:24:15. > :24:18.needs. Mr Speaker I can absolutely confirm that to my honourable

:24:19. > :24:20.friend. As I said, it actually doesn't matter what any of us in

:24:21. > :24:24.this house think about the accommodation that is on offer, what

:24:25. > :24:28.matters is what the individual families think. We're going to keep

:24:29. > :24:32.working with them to make sure we get the right accommodation in the

:24:33. > :24:37.right area, which meets their needs. Kirsty Blackman. Thank you very much

:24:38. > :24:42.Mr Speaker, I like to thank the Minister again for his statement.

:24:43. > :24:46.And also for coming to the house so regularly with statements, it's very

:24:47. > :24:51.much appreciated across the house. There have been some reports, Mr

:24:52. > :24:55.Speaker, about some of the families currently not having security in the

:24:56. > :24:58.emergency accommodation they are in, and being concerned about where they

:24:59. > :25:02.might be sleeping tonight or tomorrow night, not having certainty

:25:03. > :25:06.within that emergency accommodation. I would appreciate if the Minister

:25:07. > :25:08.could update us on the situation there, particularly with regards to

:25:09. > :25:14.those still in emergency accommodation. I'd like to ask about

:25:15. > :25:17.what support, Mr Speaker, the families are being given when moving

:25:18. > :25:21.into temporary accommodation to ensure they have the ability to buy

:25:22. > :25:26.your purchase or get those things that make a home-made home. Toys for

:25:27. > :25:30.children, ornaments, things that make a home not just a shell. I

:25:31. > :25:35.appreciate properties are fully furnished, but that is not all the

:25:36. > :25:41.things a family needs for example. I hope we will continue to receive

:25:42. > :25:47.updates. I appreciate that the public inquiry will be taking place,

:25:48. > :25:52.into the circumstances that led up to this matter. We've asked it be as

:25:53. > :25:55.wide as possible and that the residents views be taken into

:25:56. > :25:59.account at all times about the nature of the inquiry. I'd also like

:26:00. > :26:05.to ask that the minister commits to looking at the response put in place

:26:06. > :26:09.after this, and to do either an inquiry, some sort of assessment as

:26:10. > :26:12.to how the response came about, so we can ensure going forward, if

:26:13. > :26:15.there is ever need, and we hope there isn't, needs to respond to a

:26:16. > :26:19.disaster like this again, that we come across the nations of the UK,

:26:20. > :26:25.are learning from what has happened here, so we can put in the best

:26:26. > :26:32.response possible. Mr Speaker, I thank the honourable lady for her

:26:33. > :26:36.words, acknowledging that ministers have been coming forward on a

:26:37. > :26:39.regular basis to update. That is right, that is exactly what we

:26:40. > :26:46.should be doing, particularly at this time. She raises a number of

:26:47. > :26:49.points. With regard... I appreciate in the initial stages there were

:26:50. > :26:54.concerns some people were being asked to move at very short notice.

:26:55. > :26:56.I believe that has been rectified. People are going to be given much

:26:57. > :27:01.more notice and we're going to try to keep people in the hotels which

:27:02. > :27:04.they become familiar with so long as they are happy with those. I've had

:27:05. > :27:08.individual conversations relating to hotel accommodation with some of the

:27:09. > :27:11.families and we've managed to fix that. When it comes to money,

:27:12. > :27:16.absolutely, if you've lost absolutely everything, you need to

:27:17. > :27:22.make sure you have ready funds available to replace that. We have a

:27:23. > :27:29.discretionary fund, 249 payments of ?500 have been made so far to those

:27:30. > :27:37.of Grenfell Tower and Grenville walk. 840 payments have been made in

:27:38. > :27:41.terms of discretionary payments to others in the wide area. The total

:27:42. > :27:46.spend is two and a half million pounds. Of course, where funding is

:27:47. > :27:51.required, we will make sure that is available.

:27:52. > :27:58.Shall talk about a public enquiry, Sir Martin Moore-Bick has been

:27:59. > :28:01.appointed and has already met victims, survivors, members of the

:28:02. > :28:04.local community, and I just want to be clear once again, I know the

:28:05. > :28:08.house already knows this, but legal support for victims will be provided

:28:09. > :28:13.so they can play a full part. Clearly it is up to the judge to

:28:14. > :28:17.determine the scope of the enquiry. But I'm sure he will have heard

:28:18. > :28:21.people want is fall and enquiry as possible. World, I'm keen to

:28:22. > :28:26.accommodate the level of interest in this extremely serious matter, about

:28:27. > :28:30.which I suspect there will be many statements in the weeks to come but

:28:31. > :28:35.I just advise the house that both of these subsequent debates are well

:28:36. > :28:38.subscribed, especially the debate on Israel - Palestine, that is very

:28:39. > :28:44.heavily subscribed, and therefore I must leave time for that, so what is

:28:45. > :28:49.required in each case is a short, preferably single sentence,

:28:50. > :28:54.question. Sir Oliver Heald. My honourable friend mentioned there

:28:55. > :28:59.are a number of families who have not yet engaged over rehousing, and

:29:00. > :29:01.of course the community in Latimer Road and Westway have been

:29:02. > :29:07.marvellous and putting their arms around these families, but would he

:29:08. > :29:09.confirm that even if there is a delay before the families engage,

:29:10. > :29:15.they will still have the same priority, they will still be given

:29:16. > :29:19.the rights of rehousing that he has mentioned? I can absolutely confirm

:29:20. > :29:22.that and can I also pay tribute to the local community and volunteers

:29:23. > :29:27.who have worked so hard to support these families. Is the Minister

:29:28. > :29:33.aware that, despite the press narrative of survivors refusing

:29:34. > :29:35.million pound luxury flats, some are being offered totally unsuitable

:29:36. > :29:39.accommodation? In particular one man who I think the Minister has met,

:29:40. > :29:43.who runs his own business and cares for his elderly disabled mother was

:29:44. > :29:48.offered a home in a poorly maintained and rat infested estate

:29:49. > :29:51.that is about to be demolished. For this traumatised family who escaped

:29:52. > :29:55.with their lives while rescuing their neighbours, what kind of peace

:29:56. > :29:58.and stability could they possibly find in this frankly shameful offer?

:29:59. > :30:04.And I would really like to know who considered that kind of

:30:05. > :30:08.accommodation to be suitable? Mr Speaker, we do not want any family

:30:09. > :30:13.to be placed in accommodation is unsuitable, so could I invite the

:30:14. > :30:16.honourable lady to join me and the Shadow minister. Let's go and visit

:30:17. > :30:23.some of these properties and make sure that she is also happy with the

:30:24. > :30:27.quality of what is on offer. Eddie Hughes. Thank you Mr Speaker, in his

:30:28. > :30:31.statement the minister suggested some of those who were in Grenfell

:30:32. > :30:34.Tower had been there five years, despite being assured it was

:30:35. > :30:38.temporary accommodation. Can the Minister assure us that those now

:30:39. > :30:44.placed in temporary accommodation won't subsequently have described as

:30:45. > :30:50.permanent? I absolutely can offer that assurance, Mr Speaker. Vera

:30:51. > :30:55.Hobhouse. Will the Minister agree that the uptake of only 14 families

:30:56. > :30:58.for temporary accommodation is disappointing, and if he does not

:30:59. > :31:01.agree that it is to do with the quality of the housing but the lack

:31:02. > :31:08.of trust, what is being done to build this trust? Mr Speaker, I just

:31:09. > :31:11.want to go back to the point that I think the pace at which this happens

:31:12. > :31:15.has to be at the behest of the families but there is an issue about

:31:16. > :31:18.lack of trust. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has

:31:19. > :31:22.written letters directly to families affected, setting out very clearly

:31:23. > :31:31.what it is we are offering but we have to continue to build on that

:31:32. > :31:36.trust. In addition to the discretionary funds, can I ask the

:31:37. > :31:40.what ministers have had to ensure whether there are house holidays --

:31:41. > :31:46.there are policies in place that they are paid out as quickly as

:31:47. > :32:00.possible? I can confirm the Treasury are looking at overall matters. Does

:32:01. > :32:03.the minister know how many of the households in Grenfell had previous

:32:04. > :32:06.experience of the homelessness system? Because though that have all

:32:07. > :32:11.now it is feral, that they were living in bad quality accommodation,

:32:12. > :32:14.such -- subject to frequent moves, insecure, and in some cases staying

:32:15. > :32:18.in temporary accommodation for up to a decade. Does he understand that is

:32:19. > :32:22.the context that feeds the catastrophic mistrust of residence

:32:23. > :32:25.and he needs to deal with those wider factors as well as the

:32:26. > :32:29.immediate reality. I have already acknowledged there has been a lack

:32:30. > :32:37.of trust. This is what ministers on the side make sure we work to

:32:38. > :32:41.restore. The Minister has referred to a number of leaseholders who hold

:32:42. > :32:47.their only sin the flat and could he outlined what steps he has taken to

:32:48. > :32:52.ensure their security? I met with a number of the leaseholders

:32:53. > :32:55.yesterday. We have asked them to provide us with further information

:32:56. > :33:06.relating to their lease, and we expect from next week to start

:33:07. > :33:09.having those individual discussions. There have been two fires in my

:33:10. > :33:14.constituency since the Grenfell Tower and they were not in

:33:15. > :33:19.high-rises. Can the minister explain what systematic action is being

:33:20. > :33:22.taken to prevent other fires, because people are very concerned,

:33:23. > :33:27.and secondly, what will he do to make sure we strengthen the powers

:33:28. > :33:35.of the regulators to address the concerns of residents when they

:33:36. > :33:38.raised the alarm bells? I talked about the expert advisory panel that

:33:39. > :33:42.will look at many of these matters but as the Prime Minister herself

:33:43. > :33:44.said last week's PMQs, we will need to look much more widely at what has

:33:45. > :33:50.under different governments, different councils, and we will make

:33:51. > :33:53.sure we get to the bottom of this. It is absolutely vital people feel

:33:54. > :34:00.safer that is what we are going to make sure happens. I thank the

:34:01. > :34:03.Minister for his statement. And for providing assurances to survivors

:34:04. > :34:07.that they will be supported at a pace that they want. There have been

:34:08. > :34:10.disputed reports in the media over the number of missing residents. But

:34:11. > :34:17.efforts have been made to help identify missing residents? Mr

:34:18. > :34:20.Speaker, we want to build up is for a list as possible of people who

:34:21. > :34:26.were in that building at that tragic time. And as my honourable friend

:34:27. > :34:29.will know, the director of prosecutions has come forward and

:34:30. > :34:35.said people will not be prosecuted if they were subletting illegally.

:34:36. > :34:38.They are going to be exempt from prosecution, so I hope if there are

:34:39. > :34:41.people who are aware of those who were in the building that we do not

:34:42. > :34:48.know about, I hope they will come forward. I would like to share the

:34:49. > :34:51.words of my constituent, Jess. "I Am a firefighter and went into Grenfell

:34:52. > :34:55.Tower, rescuing an unconscious girl from the 12th floor. Myself and my

:34:56. > :34:58.fellow firefighters will never forget the horrors of that night and

:34:59. > :35:02.the fact we could not rescue everyone, but we are not to blame

:35:03. > :35:06.for these deaths. The shocking and tragic fire in Grenfell Tower was

:35:07. > :35:10.available. I have never seen a building go up in flames quickly. It

:35:11. > :35:15.took minutes for the fire to hop from floor before. This tragedy has

:35:16. > :35:19.shown the laws on fire safety and building and not fit for purpose.

:35:20. > :35:24.But would the Minister said to Mike constituent and what support have

:35:25. > :35:27.you put in place for workers like? I would firstly pay tribute to the

:35:28. > :35:29.incredible work the firefighters did that night, not just that night but

:35:30. > :35:37.they do every day throughout the year. In terms of support, I am

:35:38. > :35:40.aware that we need to make sure trauma counselling is available on

:35:41. > :35:43.that is happening also for the firefighters. That is vital. The

:35:44. > :35:46.public enquiry is there to get to the bottom of what happened, and

:35:47. > :35:50.that is what we are going to make sure takes place. Ultimately, we

:35:51. > :35:57.cannot have something like this, this kind of tragedy, ever happening

:35:58. > :35:59.again in our country. The minister spoke about the importance of

:36:00. > :36:04.building trust amongst the community. Would he agree it is

:36:05. > :36:08.important we don't inadvertently diminished trust in the judge and

:36:09. > :36:12.the enquiry, Judge Moore Bick, without good cause? Of course we

:36:13. > :36:15.would all like to see the judiciary in this country more accurately

:36:16. > :36:20.represent the population, but we mustn't cast aspersions on their

:36:21. > :36:23.impartiality before they have even begun their enquiry. My honourable

:36:24. > :36:27.friend is absolutely right. Sir Martin has already met some of the

:36:28. > :36:37.victims and survivors and I think we need to allow him to sit out the

:36:38. > :36:40.full scope of his enquiry. We are losing the installation protection

:36:41. > :36:44.that the cladding offers and when winter comes if that cladding is not

:36:45. > :36:49.replaced, those homes may struggle to be warm and dry. Can ministers

:36:50. > :36:53.say what assessment they are making now that need to have those

:36:54. > :36:59.buildings properly insulated the winter, so that people are warm, dry

:37:00. > :37:02.and save? As the honourable lady will know, in cases where the

:37:03. > :37:07.cladding is coming down, new cladding is also planned to go up,

:37:08. > :37:11.which is noncombat dial. May I just commend the Minister on his very

:37:12. > :37:19.calm and dignified approach today on what has been a dreadful disaster.

:37:20. > :37:21.It has struck me and all of us in Northern Ireland are terribly

:37:22. > :37:26.affected and deeply moved by what has happened in that tower block. It

:37:27. > :37:32.concerns me that those who have survived are now facing an

:37:33. > :37:37.indeterminate length of time in different accommodation. I think it

:37:38. > :37:44.would help matters enormously if the government would commit to help with

:37:45. > :37:48.the rents if the rents are hired them what they have been used to add

:37:49. > :37:53.Grenfell Tower. I think there is a moral obligation on behalf of the

:37:54. > :37:58.government to give that reassurance to them. The emergency accommodation

:37:59. > :38:02.is rent-free, I should have explained myself properly. The

:38:03. > :38:05.financial provisions the Minister referred to for local authorities

:38:06. > :38:09.who are trying to sort out throughout the country seems very ad

:38:10. > :38:12.hoc. Would it not be much better to set up a specific fund local

:38:13. > :38:18.authorities can draw down and make therefore a proportionate amount of

:38:19. > :38:22.money available to local authorities in Wales? What is important is we

:38:23. > :38:24.respond to the needs of individual authorities and local councils are

:38:25. > :38:33.is what will do in conversations with them. Can I gently say, at

:38:34. > :38:36.local level a fund about whose control won't work, the local

:38:37. > :38:40.community don't want the usual suspect in charge of Kensington and

:38:41. > :38:44.Chelsea. Will he say today that there will not be any loss for

:38:45. > :38:47.social or affordable housing, that every single unit that is used will

:38:48. > :38:51.be replaced? It is wrong that people on waiting lists are being made to

:38:52. > :38:57.pay the price and they will suffer the consequence of Grenfell. Mr

:38:58. > :39:00.Speaker, there is a change of leadership, as he knows, at the

:39:01. > :39:08.Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and there is the independent

:39:09. > :39:14.task force that my right honourable friend has now announced. Can I just

:39:15. > :39:17.said, in terms of the quality of the housing that people will be putting

:39:18. > :39:25.in on a permanent basis, that absolutely has to be of very good

:39:26. > :39:29.quality that is what we will insure. We all know who the villains of the

:39:30. > :39:32.piece are, but I think it is right that we mention the heroes, and I

:39:33. > :39:37.thank the Minister for his war of words today. And also his gratitude

:39:38. > :39:40.to those councils like the London Borough of Ealing who have committed

:39:41. > :39:45.resources and staff to help that he will be aware that one of the most

:39:46. > :39:49.active groups within the area are the local faith communities, Saint

:39:50. > :39:52.Francis of Assisi, what plans does he have for meeting collectively

:39:53. > :39:59.with this group to have done so much for so many people with so few

:40:00. > :40:03.resources in the area? Mr Speaker, we have committed to meet with

:40:04. > :40:07.community groups, we have already done so, ministers have only done so

:40:08. > :40:10.and he is absolutely right. My right honourable friend has also met some

:40:11. > :40:16.of these groups, as has my honourable friend the Minister of

:40:17. > :40:19.State at the Home Office. But I absolutely understand it is vital

:40:20. > :40:21.that we understand with these community groups and faith groups to

:40:22. > :40:27.make sure they provide their input as well.

:40:28. > :40:34.I felt the Minister showed real humility in his contribution.

:40:35. > :40:39.Humility I should say not shown by his Secretary of State at the local

:40:40. > :40:42.government conference, who sought to attack the local government sector

:40:43. > :40:47.for the failings of an individual council. If he won't stick up for

:40:48. > :40:50.local government, I will and I will say this, Kensington and Chelsea do

:40:51. > :40:54.not represent local government as a whole. My question is this:

:40:55. > :40:59.regulations will take time to resolve, and to work through and to

:41:00. > :41:03.find better quality regulation for building control, but today there

:41:04. > :41:07.are properties being built with government money through the housing

:41:08. > :41:10.investment fund the ball to Greater Manchester and Birmingham, East

:41:11. > :41:16.Anglia etc, where we can be insistent that sprinters are

:41:17. > :41:19.installed today. Can -- sprinklers. I am sorry to say this to the

:41:20. > :41:21.honourable gentleman but my right honourable friend has been working

:41:22. > :41:26.incredibly hard on this issue from day one on this issue with me. This

:41:27. > :41:35.is a time for us to come together on this issue particularly. May I...

:41:36. > :41:44.With regard to building regulations we have an expert panel, we

:41:45. > :41:47.understand... Mr Dennis Skinner. I think if the government in

:41:48. > :41:56.particular wants a little bit of advice from a mere observer of this

:41:57. > :42:01.tower in I think it's time we had an end to government members and their

:42:02. > :42:06.supporters howling with derision at the very mention of health and

:42:07. > :42:13.safety, and having resolutions to get rid of red tape and regulation.

:42:14. > :42:17.The truth is, had there been more red tape and regulation in those

:42:18. > :42:23.blocks, we wouldn't be talking about it today. Minister. I respectfully

:42:24. > :42:29.point out to the honourable gentleman regulations were set out

:42:30. > :42:34.in 2006 and there was of course a Labour government. The reality is we

:42:35. > :42:39.have to learn lessons. We have to learn lessons from this. Where

:42:40. > :42:48.people have lessons to offer, we will listen. Order. Point of order,

:42:49. > :42:50.Barbara Paul Kealy. On a point of order Mr Speaker, on Monday evening

:42:51. > :42:53.the Secretary of State for Health published a written ministerial

:42:54. > :42:58.statement suggesting local authority access to the ?2 billion funding for

:42:59. > :43:03.social care announced in the spring budget will now be dependent on

:43:04. > :43:05.performance against targets for delayed transfer of care meaning

:43:06. > :43:11.some councils could lose funding they've already planned to spend

:43:12. > :43:14.this year. Today, Mr Speaker, the local government Association has

:43:15. > :43:20.been left with no choice but to withdraw its support for guidance on

:43:21. > :43:25.better care funding. Social care is already in crisis, this can only

:43:26. > :43:28.make things worse. Have you had a statement from the Secretary of

:43:29. > :43:31.State for Health as to whether he intends to come to the house to make

:43:32. > :43:33.a statement and where this leaves funding for social care to give

:43:34. > :43:38.honourable members the chance to make tweet ask questions? The short

:43:39. > :43:41.answer is that I've received no indication of any attention by a

:43:42. > :43:46.minister to come to the house to make a statement on that matter. I'm

:43:47. > :43:52.very conscious of the important that the honourable lady and probably

:43:53. > :43:58.others attached to it. And also of the evident urgency which she

:43:59. > :44:02.attaches to the subject. The honourable lady is an experienced

:44:03. > :44:07.member of the house and, as we approach the summer recess, I rather

:44:08. > :44:13.imagine that she will diligently keep an eye on the subject. And if

:44:14. > :44:16.she is dissatisfied with what is set, or by the absence of anything

:44:17. > :44:24.being said, she knows that there are options available to her to secure

:44:25. > :44:30.the attention of and comments by the relevant minister. Point of order,

:44:31. > :44:33.Stuart Malcolm MacDonald. Thank you very much Mr Speaker, you will be

:44:34. > :44:39.aware this new parliament and the previous parliament, my colleagues

:44:40. > :44:43.and I had a partly successful campaign to save Glasgow's job

:44:44. > :44:49.centres from closure. More than an hour ago I read in the press about

:44:50. > :44:54.the department's plans. 35 minutes ago, the department's plans were

:44:55. > :44:57.laid down in the house through a ministerial written statement.

:44:58. > :45:01.Despite a request for there to be an oral statement so we can have a full

:45:02. > :45:07.and proper discussion on these matters. Mr Speaker, can you advise

:45:08. > :45:12.me and my colleagues how we can get a minister to that dispatch box to

:45:13. > :45:15.ask why there has been no published equality impact assessment, wider

:45:16. > :45:20.consultation responses still haven't been published six months later, so

:45:21. > :45:24.we can hold them to account on the fact they still want to close seven

:45:25. > :45:27.of our city's job centres. The short answer is that I am in a position to

:45:28. > :45:34.advise the honourable gentleman who I thank for his point of order. The

:45:35. > :45:39.essence of my advice is to impress upon the honourable gentleman the

:45:40. > :45:43.importance of repetition. The honourable gentleman has raised the

:45:44. > :45:47.issue now, and his representations will have been heard on the Treasury

:45:48. > :45:55.bench. And the honourable gentleman, who is a seasoned habitue of the

:45:56. > :45:59.chamber will know that tomorrow we have business questions. Now, I

:46:00. > :46:05.firmly expect the honourable gentleman to be in his place and to

:46:06. > :46:12.be bobbing with great intensity up and down in order to catch my eye to

:46:13. > :46:17.question the leader of the house on weather and, if so, when, there will

:46:18. > :46:20.be an oral statement on this matter. I look forward to seeing the

:46:21. > :46:27.honourable gentleman bright eyed and bushy tailed in his seat in the

:46:28. > :46:33.chamber tomorrow morning. If there are no further points of order, the

:46:34. > :46:37.clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Supply and

:46:38. > :46:43.appropriation Main Estimates Bill, second reading. The minister to move

:46:44. > :46:54.for money? The question is that the bill now be read a second time. The

:46:55. > :47:04.ayes habit. The bill will be read to the third time. The ayes have it. We

:47:05. > :47:07.come to motion number two on the Northern Ireland order. The Minister

:47:08. > :47:22.to move. Minister Chloe Smith. Thank you very much indeed Mr

:47:23. > :47:26.Speaker. I beg to move that the draft justice and security Northern

:47:27. > :47:30.Ireland act 2007, extension of the provisions of the 20 17th that was

:47:31. > :47:35.laid before this house on the 22nd of June the approved. Under this

:47:36. > :47:39.order, trials without jury can take place in Northern Ireland for a

:47:40. > :47:45.further two years from the 1st of August 20 17. The current provisions

:47:46. > :47:48.expire on the 31st of July. Whilst this is the fifth such extension of

:47:49. > :47:53.these provisions, I hope to leave members in no doubt as to the

:47:54. > :47:56.continued necessity of such provisions for another two years.

:47:57. > :47:59.May I take the opportunity to welcome the dignity Speaker, Madam

:48:00. > :48:05.Deputy Speaker, to her place for the first time in which I stand at this

:48:06. > :48:07.dispatch box, I'm sure we all enjoyed serving under her

:48:08. > :48:10.chairmanship this afternoon. Honourable members will be aware of

:48:11. > :48:12.the lethal threat posed by terrorists in Northern Ireland.

:48:13. > :48:15.Dissident republican terrorist groups continue to plan and mount

:48:16. > :48:18.attacks with the principal aim of killing or maiming those who serve

:48:19. > :48:23.the public in all communities so bravely. Police officers, prison

:48:24. > :48:27.officers and members of the Armed Forces are the main focus of these

:48:28. > :48:32.attacks. The terrorists continued use of explosive devices and other

:48:33. > :48:35.weaponry continues to cause death and injury. Individuals linked to

:48:36. > :48:38.paramilitary organisations also continue to undermine peace and the

:48:39. > :48:41.rule of law in Northern Ireland. Through the use of violence and

:48:42. > :48:46.intimidation in both Republican and Loyalist communities. I want to

:48:47. > :48:50.assure honourable members that the government wishes to end the

:48:51. > :48:54.exceptional system of nonjury trials as soon as it is no longer

:48:55. > :48:57.necessary. But this should only happen when the circumstances allow.

:48:58. > :49:01.Otherwise we risk allowing violence and intimidation to undermine the

:49:02. > :49:10.criminal justice process in Northern Ireland. Regrettably, yes, of

:49:11. > :49:16.course... Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I'm delighted to say for

:49:17. > :49:20.the first occasion I'm delighted to welcome the new minister to the

:49:21. > :49:23.dispatch box to debate this important piece of legislation. It

:49:24. > :49:27.would be helpful to the house if the minister would indicate the types of

:49:28. > :49:33.trials the individuals who have gone through this procedure, this nonjury

:49:34. > :49:38.trial procedure in the recent past, and indicate whether they have in

:49:39. > :49:41.fact been Loyalist paramilitary 's, republican paramilitaries or

:49:42. > :49:48.predominantly one or the other, that would be helpful, I think. I thank

:49:49. > :49:54.the honourable lady for her comments. What I shall do initially

:49:55. > :49:57.in my remarks here is I want to set up the types of the conditions under

:49:58. > :50:02.which such a trial can be granted first of all, which I think will

:50:03. > :50:07.begin to help answer the question she puts. I shall also come onto the

:50:08. > :50:13.numbers of such trials that we see. I worked, as she appreciates, be

:50:14. > :50:18.able to comment on any lift cases or bats give every single detail she

:50:19. > :50:26.asks for, but I endeavour to give the house a strong sense of what

:50:27. > :50:32.these trials are used for. Allow me to intervene again. I'm busy not

:50:33. > :50:37.asking the Minister to comment upon those cases or ongoing, but we've

:50:38. > :50:39.had this procedure, non-jury trials in Northern Ireland, sectional to

:50:40. > :50:45.Northern Ireland, and I fully understand it's important, nonjury

:50:46. > :50:47.trials, in the context of Northern Ireland. What I think the minister

:50:48. > :50:52.needs to explain to the community and the house is that this is not a

:50:53. > :50:57.one-sided process, but those who've been through it has been convicted

:50:58. > :51:00.or indeed acquitted, they come from both loyalist and republican

:51:01. > :51:06.paramilitary groups. I think that would be helpful. The simplest short

:51:07. > :51:10.answer is, yes, indeed, that is the case, it is absolutely the case that

:51:11. > :51:15.the provisions we are looking at here have and will apply across

:51:16. > :51:20.communities. There is no doubt of that. Allow me to continue with the

:51:21. > :51:23.rest of my opening remarks, then I shall be sure to try to answer

:51:24. > :51:31.everything else in the course of this committee. I was just making

:51:32. > :51:35.the point, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the government wishes to end

:51:36. > :51:39.this because it is an exceptional system, and wishes to do so as soon

:51:40. > :51:45.as circumstances allow. While many attacks that would have wanted to

:51:46. > :51:49.visit violence and intimidation upon the criminal justice process, many

:51:50. > :51:53.such attacks have been disrupted, the security situation today does

:51:54. > :51:58.remain much the same as it was in 2015 when the house last looked at

:51:59. > :52:02.these measures. The threat from terrorism in Northern Ireland is

:52:03. > :52:06.assessed to be severe. This year alone four national-security attacks

:52:07. > :52:09.have occurred in Northern Ireland including the wounding of a police

:52:10. > :52:14.officer serving the community. It would be remiss, I think, of the

:52:15. > :52:16.government to dispose of these provisions now, given this threat.

:52:17. > :52:20.And the impact that threat might have on the delivery of criminal

:52:21. > :52:24.justice to all communities in Northern Ireland. I think also it

:52:25. > :52:27.might be a weak argument to suggest that because we have these

:52:28. > :52:32.provisions for a long time we should move on from them. In the last two

:52:33. > :52:37.years attacks by dissident republicans Loyalist paramilitaries

:52:38. > :52:42.have put countless innocent lives in danger. Members may be aware of the

:52:43. > :52:47.incident on the Crumlin Road in Belfast when two police officers

:52:48. > :52:51.came under attack from dissident republicans, leaving one officer

:52:52. > :52:54.badly injured. The forecourt of a busy filling station was sprayed

:52:55. > :52:59.with automatic gunfire, demonstrating the utter disregard

:53:00. > :53:04.these groups show for human life, and the harm they pose to ordinary

:53:05. > :53:09.members of the public. Sadly, this despicable attack was not an

:53:10. > :53:14.isolated incident, there were four confirmed national-security attacks

:53:15. > :53:19.in 2016. Four so far this year, underlying the persistence of the

:53:20. > :53:22.threat we face. The presence of dissident republicans and

:53:23. > :53:24.paramilitaries in Northern Ireland means violence and intimidation

:53:25. > :53:29.remains a concern for the wider community. There have been figures

:53:30. > :53:34.released by the police service in Northern Ireland, the SNI, joint

:53:35. > :53:37.there has been an increased number of security related deaths over the

:53:38. > :53:44.past three years, as well as an increasing trend in the number of

:53:45. > :53:51.paramilitary assaults is 2012-2013. Police and public

:53:52. > :54:00.in 2016-17 there were 137 arrests and 19 charges related to terrorism.

:54:01. > :54:06.I pay tribute to the work of the PS and I and their partners because it

:54:07. > :54:13.is having an impact on the threat. But the security situation remains

:54:14. > :54:18.serious. On that point, may I speak from personal experience, there is

:54:19. > :54:22.huge intimidation in some of these courts of the witnesses. From the

:54:23. > :54:29.public gallery. Which is very difficult to control. And I have to

:54:30. > :54:37.tell you, I was frightened. I welcome my honourable and gallant

:54:38. > :54:44.colleague's experience. Brought to bear on this debate. He is right.

:54:45. > :54:46.I'm just about to go on to the circumstances in which nonjury

:54:47. > :54:53.trials are appropriate. It comes on to these very points about

:54:54. > :54:59.intimidation of those involved in the justice process. I think he will

:55:00. > :55:06.also be aware of some other jury reforms which have been committed

:55:07. > :55:10.administratively, which I hope to see succeed. I think the Minister

:55:11. > :55:14.for giving way. I think the information she has outlined, she's

:55:15. > :55:19.making the case very, very well. That this system should be renewed.

:55:20. > :55:24.Would she agree with me that it is essential for all sections of the

:55:25. > :55:30.community in Northern Ireland to support security forces and the work

:55:31. > :55:33.they are doing. Yes, I would, Madam Deputy Speaker, yes, I would. We are

:55:34. > :55:38.talking here today about a threat that grows across all communities,

:55:39. > :55:42.goes to the wider public, I hope I've begun to make that clear in my

:55:43. > :55:46.remarks. I'll go onto the precise ways in which justice is threatened.

:55:47. > :55:52.And what these measures in front of us here today are for. Nonjury trial

:55:53. > :55:55.provisions are available in exceptional circumstances in

:55:56. > :55:59.Northern Ireland, where a risk to the demonstration of justice is

:56:00. > :56:02.suspected, jury tampering for example, whereby intimidation,

:56:03. > :56:07.violence or threat of violence against members of the jury could

:56:08. > :56:11.result in a convert conviction or acquittal. The DPP may issue a

:56:12. > :56:15.certificate that allows nonjury trial to be held in relation to any

:56:16. > :56:18.trial on indictment of a defendant and anyone tried with that

:56:19. > :56:25.defendant, if it meets a defined test, which falls within one of four

:56:26. > :56:28.conditions. The first, is that the defendant is always an associate of

:56:29. > :56:31.a member of a proscribed organisation, or has at any time

:56:32. > :56:41.been a member of an organisation when it was proscribed. Secondly,

:56:42. > :56:46.the offence was committed on behalf of such an organisation, or that an

:56:47. > :56:48.organisation was involved with or assisted in the carrying out of an

:56:49. > :56:59.offence. All that an attempt was ... Or that eight proscribed

:57:00. > :57:03.organisation was otherwise involved in that attempt. Or that the offence

:57:04. > :57:07.was committed to any extent is directly or indirectly as a result

:57:08. > :57:12.of or in connection with or in response to religious or political

:57:13. > :57:16.hostility. A case that falls within one of these four conditions will

:57:17. > :57:21.not automatically be tried without a jury because the DPP must also be

:57:22. > :57:23.satisfied there is a risk the administration of justice might be

:57:24. > :57:29.impaired if a jury trial were to be held. I should be clear at this

:57:30. > :57:34.point for those with a historical view, I would like to be clear this

:57:35. > :57:38.is not a Diplock system, this is not a system that pertain before 2007.

:57:39. > :57:42.They raise a clear distinction between this system and the pre-2007

:57:43. > :57:47.Diplock court arrangements. Those saw a presumption that all

:57:48. > :57:50.bejewelled defences were tried by a judge alone. Today in Northern

:57:51. > :57:52.Ireland there is a clear presumption that a jury trial will take case

:57:53. > :58:01.tweet place in all cases. In line with commitments previously

:58:02. > :58:07.made in Parliament in 2015 before the expiry date of July 2017 that

:58:08. > :58:12.brings us today, the Secretary of State felt a full consultation on

:58:13. > :58:15.whether or not it should be extended. The consultation concluded

:58:16. > :58:19.in February this year and received a total of ten responses from a range

:58:20. > :58:26.of interested individuals and groups in Northern Ireland. I am extremely

:58:27. > :58:31.grateful for the generosity of the Minister has shown in taking

:58:32. > :58:34.interventions. Before the Minister moves on to the conclusions of the

:58:35. > :58:43.consultation and drawing her marks to an end it would actually be

:58:44. > :58:46.interesting to know how often the DPP has issued the certificates. He

:58:47. > :58:51.has not been at all hesitant in doing so and it would also be

:58:52. > :58:54.helpful when he has refused to issue those certificates. In the Mononoke

:58:55. > :59:02.of cases I think that sort of information would be very helpful to

:59:03. > :59:09.everyone. I will be happy to provide that, I will post here and providers

:59:10. > :59:13.exactly those figures. In the calendar year 2017 which obviously

:59:14. > :59:19.is still running, we have four certificates issued so far by the

:59:20. > :59:27.DPP under this act. In the 2016 calendar year, that number was 19,

:59:28. > :59:34.19 certificates were issued. Those refused in 2016 was one. I would

:59:35. > :59:36.like also just take this moment to give the proportion because I think

:59:37. > :59:42.that is quite a list of further house. To give a proportion here of

:59:43. > :59:50.the number of Crown Court cases that have been dealt with by means of a

:59:51. > :59:54.nonjury trial, and this is the 2017 figure, it is not .5%. I would like

:59:55. > :00:02.to make clear to the house at this point how were these provisions are,

:00:03. > :00:08.how infrequently they are used and also I think the refusals figure

:00:09. > :00:12.gives a view of the ways the DPP makes those decisions carefully.

:00:13. > :00:18.This is not any form of rest the decision, it is something where due

:00:19. > :00:21.care and attention is applied. I was speaking about the responses

:00:22. > :00:25.received in the consultation and I do hope you don't mind me taking the

:00:26. > :00:29.time to put this on record for those who have an interest. I will say at

:00:30. > :00:35.this point that the Secretary of State has already received relevant

:00:36. > :00:41.briefing from security officials to understand the underlying threats.

:00:42. > :00:45.The Secretary of State has decided to renew nonjury trial for a further

:00:46. > :00:48.two years and to give them under further independent review and that

:00:49. > :00:53.is what I bring here to the house today. As an extra and new measure

:00:54. > :00:59.of assurance, the independent review of the act, the Justice and security

:01:00. > :01:01.Northern Ireland act 2007, will review the nonjury trial system as

:01:02. > :01:07.part of his annual review cycle and the results of that will be made

:01:08. > :01:19.available to the public in his published report. We must recognise

:01:20. > :01:23.Northern Ireland is in a unique situation and it continues to be an

:01:24. > :01:29.important factor in supporting the effective delivery of the criminal

:01:30. > :01:35.justice process. Certain jury trials in Northern Ireland would not be

:01:36. > :01:39.safe from disruption by those involved. Many of whom make their

:01:40. > :01:42.presence known in Northern Ireland's close-knit communities or indeed in

:01:43. > :01:49.the public galleries of the courtrooms. I thank the Minister for

:01:50. > :01:53.giving way, given that some paramilitary organisations are also

:01:54. > :01:56.involved in organised crime, is she confident that jurors in other

:01:57. > :02:03.trials are not being intimidated by those organisations? I thank my

:02:04. > :02:06.honourable friend for that remark. That reminds us actually of the

:02:07. > :02:12.importance of the four conditions that apply here. If there were some

:02:13. > :02:17.link under those four conditions, any trial may be considered under

:02:18. > :02:22.these processes. The DPP must be satisfied that one of those four

:02:23. > :02:29.conditions is met, but also that justice may be put at risk by the

:02:30. > :02:34.holding of a jury trial. So I think the honourable lady can rest assured

:02:35. > :02:42.that these provisions are available for all types of criminal cases, if

:02:43. > :02:47.they are relevant to the conditions. During 2016, as I have just been

:02:48. > :02:53.outlining, and 2017, a very small number of these cases were, of these

:02:54. > :02:57.certificates, were issued. I would just like to add at this point that

:02:58. > :03:01.the DPP acts with a great measure of independence. He is there to

:03:02. > :03:07.exercise his discretion in deciding whether or not to issue a

:03:08. > :03:12.certificate. This is his role to do, and indeed also I note the current

:03:13. > :03:17.DPP is due to retire this year, and he will have exercised these jetties

:03:18. > :03:24.and many others in great service over the years. The figures, as I

:03:25. > :03:29.say, are very small in comparison to the total burden of Crown Court

:03:30. > :03:31.cases, so I would like to think in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:03:32. > :03:36.that honourable members can be assured the Secretary of State has

:03:37. > :03:42.not taken this decision lightly to seek to extend the nonjury trial

:03:43. > :03:46.powers, to renew the system lightly. We strongly believe that the system

:03:47. > :03:51.is on balance a proportionate and necessary measure in light of the

:03:52. > :03:55.unique risks facing Vikram justice process in Northern Ireland. Just

:03:56. > :03:59.before the Minister concludes, can she tell us whether in the very

:04:00. > :04:04.small number of cases that have gone before the nonjury court, there is

:04:05. > :04:09.any evidence of appeals being put forward and indeed being successful

:04:10. > :04:18.in part as a result of the way in which they were tried in the first

:04:19. > :04:20.place? There are indeed ways to challenge these certificates, legal

:04:21. > :04:26.challenges can and have been brought. I won't go into those in

:04:27. > :04:31.great detail here, if you will excuse me, because they are on

:04:32. > :04:36.record and available for others to look at, although I would draw one

:04:37. > :04:43.interesting point out actually from one of the pieces of case law, where

:04:44. > :04:47.it is noted that to not have a jury trial is not the same as to not have

:04:48. > :04:52.a fair trial and I think that is a crucial piece of reassurance from

:04:53. > :04:57.today who may be thinking deeply about the measure from which I

:04:58. > :05:02.asking their support. Would the Minister have a comment on the

:05:03. > :05:07.Northern Ireland bars concerns that the criteria under which the

:05:08. > :05:14.challenge can be brought under section seven of the 2007 act is

:05:15. > :05:18.really very narrow, and confined to exceptional circumstances? That is a

:05:19. > :05:21.concern that the bar in Northern Ireland clearly has an comes out in

:05:22. > :05:27.the consultation, and expects to be addressed in some way and I wonder

:05:28. > :05:33.if the Minister can comment on it? I am grateful for my honourable friend

:05:34. > :05:37.and my gallant friend for his contributions, and he speaks from

:05:38. > :05:43.great experience also from indeed this very dispatch box on these very

:05:44. > :05:49.issues. He is right, that the consultation responses, whilst being

:05:50. > :05:54.very broadly in favour of continuing this system, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:05:55. > :05:58.and indeed many of the responses noted that they had faith in the

:05:59. > :06:03.Secretary of State's decision, such as that would be, whilst expressing

:06:04. > :06:08.that confidence, there were some points of detail that I can well see

:06:09. > :06:14.that could be looked at in the future. But what I would say, in

:06:15. > :06:19.relation to this order here today is that these provisions expire this

:06:20. > :06:23.month. I am asking the house to take the decision to extend them now for

:06:24. > :06:31.immediate purposes, and that is somewhat separate to the broader

:06:32. > :06:37.questions that we might in due cause look at the potential reforms. The

:06:38. > :06:41.independent review I have spoken about is a very good opportunity to

:06:42. > :06:46.draw out all of these issues. I would also take the opportunity to

:06:47. > :06:54.put on record here today that the very complexity of these issues

:06:55. > :06:56.reminds us why we want to see a Minister of State in Northern

:06:57. > :07:00.Ireland so that a Minister of justice can properly be playing

:07:01. > :07:06.their part in these issues, as well. To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:07:07. > :07:09.we want to, we would love to be able to do away with these measures as

:07:10. > :07:14.early as we possibly could, but that could only ever be done when

:07:15. > :07:20.circumstances would allow it. We want a system that remains in place

:07:21. > :07:23.to be fair and effective, necessary, appropriate and proportionate. We

:07:24. > :07:26.look forward to discussing it further under the annual independent

:07:27. > :07:31.review that I have referenced, but for now I commend this order to the

:07:32. > :07:36.house, Madam Deputy Speaker. The question is as on the order paper.

:07:37. > :07:39.Stephen Pound. Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I

:07:40. > :07:47.join the whole house in welcoming you to your seat. I learned when I

:07:48. > :07:50.was a very junior whip under your leadership that your eye misses

:07:51. > :07:53.nothing, and I'm sure that will be your experience it will stop during

:07:54. > :07:58.my time in the whips's offers one of my opposite members was the opposite

:07:59. > :08:04.lady on the other side and I welcome her to her position, and also the

:08:05. > :08:10.honourable gentleman. Can I say from the outcome that on this side of the

:08:11. > :08:14.house we do not tend to oppose this order for reasons that will be self

:08:15. > :08:18.evident. I also think the involvement of David Seymour as

:08:19. > :08:20.independent reviewer in this is a very powerful step forward, and

:08:21. > :08:24.there have been some issues in the past about the transparency of the

:08:25. > :08:29.process. I understand Barra McGrory is leaving this year and I endorse

:08:30. > :08:35.the kind comments made by the Minister. The fact that I think

:08:36. > :08:41.there has been one judicial review of his decisions says a great deal

:08:42. > :08:44.for his skin Dyche skill and impartiality custom I appreciate

:08:45. > :08:49.there have been some people on certain sides of house that have

:08:50. > :08:55.he is more than capable of being completely objective, whereas we

:08:56. > :09:00.remember Sir Alastair Fraser who held the post for over 20 years, we

:09:01. > :09:04.welcomed Barra McGrory and certainly look forward to the new appointment.

:09:05. > :09:08.I think the points that the Minister made about the current situation

:09:09. > :09:13.needs to be considered very sombrely and soberly. It is just over a year

:09:14. > :09:22.ago that Adrian Ismay was killed on his way to work at HMP hide bank.

:09:23. > :09:25.That was just over a year ago. We obviously remember the death of

:09:26. > :09:33.David black a bit earlier. The situation is dangerous. You

:09:34. > :09:38.mentioned explosive finds. One of the sad statistics we have before us

:09:39. > :09:47.is that in the period August 20 15th of July 2016, there were 246 such

:09:48. > :09:51.incidents of explosive disorder disposal, including 35 IEDs. The

:09:52. > :09:55.situation is serious and demand serious response and I think the two

:09:56. > :10:00.proposals the Minister has made today, one, the renewal of the order

:10:01. > :10:07.as from 2007 and the second thing, the involvement of the independent

:10:08. > :10:14.reviewer go a long way forward. I am very grateful to the Shadow

:10:15. > :10:20.spokesperson for Northern Ireland in responding to this debate for

:10:21. > :10:23.assuring the house that in fact he supports the renewal of this

:10:24. > :10:30.measure. I would be very comforted to know that in fact his party

:10:31. > :10:34.leader supports the need for nonjury trials in Northern Ireland, and for

:10:35. > :10:37.as long as they are needed in Northern Ireland I would like to

:10:38. > :10:43.know that his party leader supports them to stop I am very grateful, it

:10:44. > :10:45.is a little bit above my pay grade, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I shall

:10:46. > :10:49.certainly speak to my party leader and make sure that he actually sends

:10:50. > :10:55.a note to the honourable lady, who is very fond of, who I happen to

:10:56. > :11:01.know. Can I just say this is my third shot around the paddock on

:11:02. > :11:06.this particular issue. In June 2013 when the right honourable and

:11:07. > :11:09.gallant gentleman the member for Hemel Hampstead, we manage to do

:11:10. > :11:13.with this in seven minutes. Sadly the next time we dealt with it in

:11:14. > :11:18.July 2015 when the right Honourable gentleman for wire and Preston North

:11:19. > :11:21.occupy the seat, it was up to 22 minutes. I am not in any way imply

:11:22. > :11:24.we are on a particular scale, however I think it is important in

:11:25. > :11:29.view of some of the new evidence we are discussing today that we take a

:11:30. > :11:34.little bit of time. I think the role of the independent reviewer of the

:11:35. > :11:39.justice and security 2007 act is crucial, and can I recommend to the

:11:40. > :11:41.house the report of David Seymour, and my gratitude to the Northern

:11:42. > :11:47.Ireland Office for making this available, and all the work they

:11:48. > :11:50.have done. This report is salutary, and this report actually says why

:11:51. > :11:55.business in Northern Ireland is so serious. I have to say I know more

:11:56. > :11:56.about stop and search on the causeway close and blends than I

:11:57. > :12:04.ever read wanted to know. I thank the honourable member for

:12:05. > :12:10.giving way. I'm glad the opposition is supporting the measures he will

:12:11. > :12:14.know that my constituency, which is visited a number of times, as the

:12:15. > :12:18.highest level of dissident republican threat. And Mr Blacker

:12:19. > :12:24.was murdered in my constituency, he will know the necessity of having

:12:25. > :12:27.this. Madam Deputy Speaker I absolutely know that and one of the

:12:28. > :12:31.things that strikes many of us on our visits to Northern Ireland is

:12:32. > :12:34.not just the staggering beauty of that part of the world, but the

:12:35. > :12:39.persistence of fear that still applies. I salute all public

:12:40. > :12:41.servants, elected or not elected, who hold the line in Northern

:12:42. > :12:45.Ireland in the most horrendous circumstances. I pay tribute not

:12:46. > :12:50.just of the honourable gentleman, but to so many others who have

:12:51. > :12:55.suffered. Returning to not necessarily stop and search, but the

:12:56. > :13:00.report of the independent reviewer, which is a solid body of work, it

:13:01. > :13:03.should be studied. I am personally extremely glad that in future this

:13:04. > :13:08.will contain some oversight of the process. I think the only challenge

:13:09. > :13:15.that has gone to judicial review of the decision of the DPP, which was

:13:16. > :13:19.not upheld, there is still a feeling amongst some people, some people who

:13:20. > :13:23.feel it's a closed process, that the PSI welcome to the DPP and will

:13:24. > :13:27.require a certificate to be issued. The DPP quite rightly runs the

:13:28. > :13:34.template of the four tests over it and makes a decision. But it does

:13:35. > :13:36.depend, to a certain degree, on the individual characteristics,

:13:37. > :13:40.intelligence and knowledge of the DPP. In the case of DPP, he has

:13:41. > :13:44.proven time and time again he is more than capable of this. But there

:13:45. > :13:49.were some people who said there should be some element of external

:13:50. > :13:53.examination and some oversight. I think in a very fine piece of

:13:54. > :13:56.Parliamentary footwork, and legislative improvement, the

:13:57. > :14:00.Minister has answered those objections. Certainly I'm assuming

:14:01. > :14:05.in two years' time, I have no way of knowing whether I will be here,

:14:06. > :14:10.Madam Deputy Speaker. If I am it'll be because I haven't been given

:14:11. > :14:15.promotion, if not I will have been demoted. I will look forward to be

:14:16. > :14:18.reading, to be honest if I'm not at the dispatch box I'll read it

:14:19. > :14:25.anyway, to see where we are with the situation. We now have the renewal

:14:26. > :14:28.of this particular order. I would hope that, I thoroughly endorse the

:14:29. > :14:33.point is the honourable lady made early on about the desire to see the

:14:34. > :14:36.institutions in the assembly up and running again. We want to see those

:14:37. > :14:41.institutions operating again. We know that the people of Northern

:14:42. > :14:45.Ireland deserve better then an impasse, than a vacuum. We know the

:14:46. > :14:48.quality of elected representatives in Northern Ireland is such that

:14:49. > :14:51.they are more than capable of coming to this sort of agreement and I look

:14:52. > :14:54.forward to it being done very soon. I reiterate the point made right at

:14:55. > :15:01.the very beginning about this being a reluctant piece of legislation.

:15:02. > :15:04.When we consider this in June 20 13th the government minister said on

:15:05. > :15:08.the back of the government wished to see a return to full jury trials as

:15:09. > :15:12.soon as possible. This goes for all of us. We do not want to see

:15:13. > :15:16.criminal nonjury trials, they don't exist anywhere else in the United

:15:17. > :15:20.Kingdom. There may be an increase in civil nonjury trials but in terms of

:15:21. > :15:23.criminal nonjury trials they don't exist anywhere else. The fact they

:15:24. > :15:30.do exist is because of the difficult and exceptional circumstances.

:15:31. > :15:39.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I've been inadvertently promoted. It's

:15:40. > :15:41.flattering and very kind of the honourable gentleman, I was never a

:15:42. > :15:51.professor of law at Queens University. One thing to draw to the

:15:52. > :15:55.honourable member's attention, I was so disconcerted, displeased, angry,

:15:56. > :15:59.with his response when I asked about the attitude of his party leader

:16:00. > :16:03.towards nonjury trials, because of course the criminal Justice act of

:16:04. > :16:10.2003 provides non-jury trials through the whole of the United

:16:11. > :16:14.Kingdom. Thank you very much indeed, I do apologise for elevating you. It

:16:15. > :16:18.would have been a matter of time before you had been the full

:16:19. > :16:22.professor of law. I was under the impression. I'm one of the few

:16:23. > :16:25.members of Parliament, my previous occupation I was a sailor and a

:16:26. > :16:28.strive rather than a lawyer, which is fairly unusual. I was under the

:16:29. > :16:35.impression we didn't have nonjury criminal trials, but we do have

:16:36. > :16:38.nonjury civil trials that in fraud cases. I'm more than happy to be

:16:39. > :16:42.corrected. What I'm looking for today is to hear from the Minister

:16:43. > :16:45.how the mechanics of the process will be with the independent

:16:46. > :16:49.reviewer reporting, will it be an annual report, biannual, six

:16:50. > :16:53.monthly? Will it be laid in the library? Will there be a statement

:16:54. > :16:56.to the house? Could I ask, bearing in mind we are entering pretty

:16:57. > :17:02.choppy waters in Northern Ireland, if she would consider a wider

:17:03. > :17:06.involvement of the opposition, the shadow Secretary of State, in these

:17:07. > :17:09.matters. We on this side are proud of the bipartisan approach we

:17:10. > :17:12.continue to take in matters relating to Northern Ireland. There are very

:17:13. > :17:17.few points that divide us on this, we all want the same thing in

:17:18. > :17:20.Northern Ireland, peace and decency, honesty, economic success and the

:17:21. > :17:24.rule of law, we all want that. Certainly on this side of the house

:17:25. > :17:28.we pledge ourselves to working in a bipartisan way and I would like to

:17:29. > :17:30.see wider involvement with the shadow Secretary of State in future

:17:31. > :17:35.because inevitably, certainly over the next few months, there will be

:17:36. > :17:39.more, I hesitate to use the word direct rule, but certainly more

:17:40. > :17:43.direct involvement from London. We are approaching July 12, approaching

:17:44. > :17:47.a tricky time in the Northern Irish year. I think what we're doing here

:17:48. > :17:51.today will show confidence on both sides of the house in the rule of

:17:52. > :17:55.law in Northern Ireland. It will show people have not taken their eye

:17:56. > :17:59.off the ball, and that the ministers moved to include David Seymour in

:18:00. > :18:03.the process is a good and positive one. On this side of the house, we

:18:04. > :18:07.will not be opposing, in fact we endorse and support, the extension

:18:08. > :18:12.of the nonjury trial legislation for a further two years and I thank you.

:18:13. > :18:16.Laurence Robertson. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, can I also welcome

:18:17. > :18:22.you to your position. I very much look forward to working with you in

:18:23. > :18:26.the house. Can I also welcome the Minister to her position? And of

:18:27. > :18:31.course wish her well in the role. It's a little bit unfortunate this

:18:32. > :18:35.is the second time this week we've had to discuss Northern Ireland

:18:36. > :18:40.matters in this respect. Of course on Monday we heard a statement from

:18:41. > :18:45.my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, really updating

:18:46. > :18:49.us on whether progress is, where discussions are in Northern Ireland,

:18:50. > :18:54.with regards to bringing the parties together to restore the assembly and

:18:55. > :18:57.the executive. That was not good news, unfortunately, but of course

:18:58. > :19:01.we do wish him well in those negotiations. As has been said in

:19:02. > :19:05.the house already today, decisions should be taken in Northern Ireland

:19:06. > :19:10.by people, local politicians are elected by the people of Northern

:19:11. > :19:15.Ireland. So we do hope that progress will be made in that respect. I was

:19:16. > :19:19.a shadow minister for a number of years and we dealt with many issues

:19:20. > :19:25.upstairs in committee, perhaps as many as 18 MPs, all dealing with

:19:26. > :19:28.very, very important matters, only a fraction of those would be from

:19:29. > :19:34.Northern Ireland. That was absolutely no way to run a province.

:19:35. > :19:38.I do hope we can move forward with those negotiations and discussions.

:19:39. > :19:43.It's also unfortunate we are in a position where we do have to renew

:19:44. > :19:48.this legislation. Again, when I was shadow minister some years ago, I

:19:49. > :19:52.think we help these discussions and found it necessary to extend the

:19:53. > :19:55.period of time under which we could have nonjury trials. None of us

:19:56. > :20:01.actually wants to see that be the case. It's one of the central tenet

:20:02. > :20:05.of English law, United Kingdom law, that we are tried by our peers.

:20:06. > :20:11.Judged by those who we work with, and we live alongside. By way of a

:20:12. > :20:18.jury. That is the way it should be. It's very unfortunate we have to

:20:19. > :20:24.extend this facility today. Though as I understand it, as the

:20:25. > :20:27.honourable member for North town has mentioned, across, I think across

:20:28. > :20:31.Great Britain, we have section 44 of the criminal Justice act 2003, which

:20:32. > :20:38.does allow for nonjury trials to take place. I'm not sure, I've not

:20:39. > :20:42.looked into that degree of detail, how that particular act differs from

:20:43. > :20:48.the measure which we have in place in Northern Ireland. I don't know

:20:49. > :20:53.whether there is any opportunity to make the role two into one at some

:20:54. > :20:56.point in the future. Even though we do obviously have special

:20:57. > :20:59.circumstances in Northern Ireland, obviously we seem to have him in

:21:00. > :21:04.Great Britain as well, because of the existence of that particular

:21:05. > :21:11.legislation. As I say, it's always regrettable when we get to that

:21:12. > :21:15.point. I'd like to really ask, I suppose, where the specific threat

:21:16. > :21:19.is perceived to be coming from. The Minister has quite rightly said

:21:20. > :21:23.there is a very small fraction of cases which are tried in this way,

:21:24. > :21:28.but it would be interesting to know actually what kind of offences they

:21:29. > :21:32.were that were tried in this way, if she doesn't have that information

:21:33. > :21:36.immediately, perhaps she might be able to write to honourable members

:21:37. > :21:39.who are interested, what sort of cases are tried in that way. Are

:21:40. > :21:44.there any particular offences, is there a pattern here which needs to

:21:45. > :21:49.be tried in that particular way? Where was the threat perceived to be

:21:50. > :21:54.coming from? It was a point raised by the honourable lady for North

:21:55. > :21:59.town. I think it is important to try to identify where the problem is,

:22:00. > :22:04.because it's not all bad news in Northern Ireland. I've touched on

:22:05. > :22:07.two pieces of bad news. Also on Monday the Secretary of State

:22:08. > :22:11.mentioned is looking to make, is certainly reviewing, the case of

:22:12. > :22:15.political donations. He wants to move to a position where they are

:22:16. > :22:18.more transparent. Something when I was chairing the select committee in

:22:19. > :22:22.the last parliament we did look at we did urge a move in that

:22:23. > :22:28.direction. Because we do want to make Northern politics more normal.

:22:29. > :22:31.We do have some good news there. Today is not good news that we have

:22:32. > :22:37.to extend this measure, but I have no hesitation in supporting the

:22:38. > :22:40.government as it seeks to do so. Thinking back to when we have looked

:22:41. > :22:46.at this issue before, I know we raised the issue of whether a single

:22:47. > :22:49.judge actually sits in the nonjury trials, or if there are any

:22:50. > :22:54.occasions when more than one judge sits on these trials. I seem to

:22:55. > :22:58.remember at the time being told that because of the limited number of

:22:59. > :23:03.judges available perhaps it was the case that one judge usually sat. I

:23:04. > :23:06.would like to ask, given there is a very small number of cases, as

:23:07. > :23:11.suggested by the Minister, which are tried in this way, is it not

:23:12. > :23:16.possible for more than one judge to preside over these cases? Again it

:23:17. > :23:22.is with a heavy heart we have two introduced this, or extend this

:23:23. > :23:26.legislation. But I do support the government in doing so for the

:23:27. > :23:30.reasons which have been given. We do hope we can continue to move forward

:23:31. > :23:36.to the point where, actually, it's not necessary to make this the norm,

:23:37. > :23:39.where we do not need this kind of legislation on the statute books,

:23:40. > :23:43.because Northern Ireland will have moved towards the place we want it

:23:44. > :23:47.to be. Sadly it's not there yet for the reason the Minister has given,

:23:48. > :23:52.but I wish her well in that respect, thank you. Deidre Brock. Thank you

:23:53. > :23:55.madam debit is bigger, what a delight it is to see you in your

:23:56. > :24:00.place. I and other members of my party look forward very much to

:24:01. > :24:07.working with you in future. I'm going to be very brief, but I would

:24:08. > :24:12.like to be clear at the outset that the SNP won't oppose this extension

:24:13. > :24:15.today. That doesn't, however, I or the SNP offer unconditional support

:24:16. > :24:22.to the printable despite the extra and very welcome matter the Minister

:24:23. > :24:25.has spoken. I have questions about the human rights implications in

:24:26. > :24:29.terms of being seen to be fair trial. I want to make it clear I

:24:30. > :24:31.believe the prosecutors and judiciary involved are impartial and

:24:32. > :24:35.I have no concerns about their probity. But justice need an

:24:36. > :24:41.impartial face to show to the world as well as an impartial body

:24:42. > :24:43.corporate. The balance authorities in Northern Ireland will have to

:24:44. > :24:47.strike is between the efficient running of the justice system with

:24:48. > :24:52.fair and sustainable verdicts, and the need to respect, of course, the

:24:53. > :24:57.basic human right of a fair trial. Where we are talking about serious

:24:58. > :25:02.crimes, we need to be seeing serious scrutiny of the courts in operation.

:25:03. > :25:05.There is a great deal to be said. As has already been said by members in

:25:06. > :25:09.the house, for the principle of being judged by a jury of your

:25:10. > :25:13.peers. There is also a great deal to be said for having to protect

:25:14. > :25:18.justice from perverse decision is made as a result of intimidation. So

:25:19. > :25:21.while we passed this today, do let us give some thanks and praise to

:25:22. > :25:28.the prosecutors and judges and defence agents who deliver justice

:25:29. > :25:32.in Northern Ireland. One last thing before I sit down, this has been the

:25:33. > :25:35.most important point of all, made by other members. I was delighted to

:25:36. > :25:38.hear the Minister and Shadow Minister agree on this, the

:25:39. > :25:42.decisions like this one we are taking today are more properly taken

:25:43. > :25:47.at Stormont. Admittedly it is a little difficult at the moment, but

:25:48. > :25:50.people are elected by the people of Northern Ireland should be taking

:25:51. > :25:54.these decisions about policing and the delivery of justice. These

:25:55. > :25:58.decisions should be devolved to Stormont. However, the SNP will in

:25:59. > :26:02.spite of these reservations not oppose this today.

:26:03. > :26:07.And I say what a delight it is to see you in your place. Can I also

:26:08. > :26:12.congratulate the Minister, it's good to see her in her place. I'm very

:26:13. > :26:17.much interested in the comments by the honourable lady, the member for

:26:18. > :26:24.Edinburgh North and Leith. In terms of safety, clearly, we need to be

:26:25. > :26:27.very concerned about whether this arrangement is going to risk

:26:28. > :26:31.verdicts being less safe than would be the case in the system we enjoy

:26:32. > :26:35.throughout the rest of the United Kingdom. She will presumably have

:26:36. > :26:40.seen table five of the consultation response. It's an interesting table.

:26:41. > :26:47.It shows, actually, chances of acquittal are higher. Under a

:26:48. > :26:51.non-jury system. Those figures are quite clear. What I'm slightly

:26:52. > :26:57.worried about, it touches on remarks made by my honourable friend the

:26:58. > :27:02.chairman of the select committee, let's say for the time being the

:27:03. > :27:07.chairman of the select committee... Around Informatics. And what those

:27:08. > :27:11.numbers actually represent. Who are those who were given over to a

:27:12. > :27:17.nonjury trial, who were those tried by a jury? Without that granularity

:27:18. > :27:22.it is very difficult to make head or tail of those figures. On the face

:27:23. > :27:29.of it, taken at face value, it looks as if this process is safe. And a

:27:30. > :27:34.number of the consultees suggest that is indeed the case. We need to

:27:35. > :27:39.derive some comfort from that. I certainly support the proposition

:27:40. > :27:44.outlined by the Minister. I think it's important to understand this is

:27:45. > :27:48.part of a process. This is not Diplock courts. In 2007 when this

:27:49. > :27:53.legislation was passed, it was felt at that time things were

:27:54. > :28:00.sufficiently normal in Northern Ireland to move to this next level.

:28:01. > :28:05.The question will be when we are sufficiently normal in Northern

:28:06. > :28:09.Ireland to enable us to default to the 2003 position, that is the

:28:10. > :28:16.criminal Justice act of 2003. Which under very exceptional

:28:17. > :28:20.circumstances, and using a very high earning indeed, allows for nonjury

:28:21. > :28:23.trials. It's pretty clear we're not there yet and independent reviewers,

:28:24. > :28:30.the honourable gentleman who speaks from the front, the opposition front

:28:31. > :28:33.bench, said, appears to be content with the current situation and

:28:34. > :28:38.believes the situation has not changed sufficiently for us to fail

:28:39. > :28:45.to pass this extension of two years at this particular point.

:28:46. > :28:55.We are truly cautious about this difference from Northern Ireland

:28:56. > :29:00.from the rest of the United Kingdom, which sets to one side of this

:29:01. > :29:06.precious jury system that we have that is so fundamental to the way

:29:07. > :29:09.that criminal justice runs in the United Kingdom. I think David

:29:10. > :29:14.Seymour is absolutely right. Not enough has changed for us to

:29:15. > :29:20.consider not extending this particular point. We have heard

:29:21. > :29:24.about the five deaths last year, the 29 bombings, the 61 shootings. It is

:29:25. > :29:28.extraordinary for most of us who live in the rest of the United

:29:29. > :29:31.Kingdom, in a small part of the country, Northern Ireland, for this

:29:32. > :29:35.to be carried out as a remarkable thing, and clearly points towards

:29:36. > :29:40.the situation Northern Ireland not yet being sufficiently normal for us

:29:41. > :29:47.to consider setting aside the provisions of section seven of the

:29:48. > :29:54.2007 act and relying instead on the 2003 criminal Justice act. However

:29:55. > :29:58.one or two of the respondents to the consultation have asked some

:29:59. > :30:02.questions and touched upon one of them in my intervention and one of

:30:03. > :30:05.them is, assuming we will indeed at some point in the future, I hope

:30:06. > :30:14.sooner rather than later, the thought that 2003 act, as opposed to

:30:15. > :30:17.the provision of sector 74 2007 act, what then do we need to put in

:30:18. > :30:22.place, in other words what do we need to do in preparation for that

:30:23. > :30:25.point so we can protect those who are engaged in one way or another in

:30:26. > :30:31.the criminal justice systems that people not intimidated? The PS and I

:30:32. > :30:37.have made it very clear as you might expect that they see real problems

:30:38. > :30:43.in getting into alternatives, protecting people in the community

:30:44. > :30:46.from the sort of intimidation that the 2007 act is supposed to put in

:30:47. > :30:49.place will stop I can fully understand where they are coming

:30:50. > :30:52.from, that the PS and I might shrink from the proposition that they might

:30:53. > :30:56.be an alternative to the provisions of the 2007 act. It would be

:30:57. > :31:02.extremely onerous indeed for them but we need to start thinking about

:31:03. > :31:06.how we can put in place measures that will come into force after we

:31:07. > :31:11.decide that we no longer need section seven of the 2007 act, since

:31:12. > :31:14.most of us hope that will be sooner rather than later and that may very

:31:15. > :31:22.well mean some sort of protection for those involved in the system. I

:31:23. > :31:25.suppose my only other issue, other than the narrative I would rather

:31:26. > :31:29.like to see in respect to table five so that we can no more clearly, it

:31:30. > :31:34.touches upon one or two comments that have been made this afternoon

:31:35. > :31:38.around who these people are who are being tried by this auto and the

:31:39. > :31:42.means, because only with that information can we really make sense

:31:43. > :31:49.of Informatics like table five. As I said in my intervention on the

:31:50. > :31:57.Minister, the grounds of the inclusion of section seven of the

:31:58. > :32:03.2007 act for the legal challenge issue are really quite restrictive,

:32:04. > :32:06.quite stringent. It has been pointed out by the chief executive of the

:32:07. > :32:10.bar of Northern Ireland that we might like to review that and I very

:32:11. > :32:14.much welcome the review that the minister spoke about and hope very

:32:15. > :32:22.much it will be included in that, because in our enthusiasm to ensure

:32:23. > :32:25.that we are as normal in Northern Ireland as the rest of the United

:32:26. > :32:30.Kingdom and that we do as little as is necessary to except Northern

:32:31. > :32:35.Ireland for normal criminal justice system we have come we do need to

:32:36. > :32:40.look at detail like this to ensure that where we can improve matters in

:32:41. > :32:43.the way that the bar in Northern Ireland appears to be suggesting

:32:44. > :32:47.that we do that if at all possible, but with that in mind I certainly

:32:48. > :32:53.support the measure the minister is proposing to the house today. First

:32:54. > :32:59.overall can I just welcomed the ministerial announcement today. It

:33:00. > :33:03.is important we have in Northern Ireland every opportunity to address

:33:04. > :33:11.the issues in whatever way we can. One of those is the armoury of

:33:12. > :33:18.having the nonjury trials. If we look at the facts, and the

:33:19. > :33:23.honourable and right honourable members and gallant members, the

:33:24. > :33:28.rise in paramilitary activity has caused great concern to me as a

:33:29. > :33:31.member of Parliament, and I have had meetings with the PS and I and

:33:32. > :33:34.intent to have another meeting just next week with some of the local

:33:35. > :33:44.council just to address this issue as well. But when we look at the

:33:45. > :33:47.issue of what they are involved in, paramilitary criminal activity, it

:33:48. > :33:50.is the availability of drugs to all levels of society would almost an

:33:51. > :33:54.impunity which scares me, which worries me, and we need to address

:33:55. > :34:01.that issue. We also have paramilitary activity in relation to

:34:02. > :34:06.protection rackets, in relation to trafficking and prosecution. They

:34:07. > :34:12.have their hands in every pie they can and everything they can do to be

:34:13. > :34:17.involved in where there is money creation, so we have two address

:34:18. > :34:22.those issues, and address very clearly the godfathers, those who

:34:23. > :34:26.are behind, pulling the strings. So what we need is this type of

:34:27. > :34:29.legislation, which enables us in the cases where it is appropriate to

:34:30. > :34:36.take on those people and put those people in prison, where they should

:34:37. > :34:40.be. I think as we look forward towards a holiday break and that

:34:41. > :34:44.tremendous and glorious 12th of July celebration that we have, when

:34:45. > :34:49.everything good culturally in history will be on show, and I would

:34:50. > :34:53.invite all of the honourable and right honourable members to come to

:34:54. > :34:56.Northern Ireland and explain some of those wonderful things. I know the

:34:57. > :35:00.Shadow minister has had the opportunity to come over many times

:35:01. > :35:03.to see first-hand, and there has also been some of the Association

:35:04. > :35:09.dinners we have heard, and those have been good occasions. If there

:35:10. > :35:14.is a free dinner, it is usually an occasion to be there, but there you

:35:15. > :35:19.are! CHUCKLING It was a nonalcoholic event, but

:35:20. > :35:22.there you are. Just to say it is good to have the interest from the

:35:23. > :35:27.members in the house and those who have participated or will

:35:28. > :35:30.participate and are hereby their very presence that there is a real

:35:31. > :35:38.interest in Northern Ireland and we appreciate that. To respond

:35:39. > :35:42.effectively to paramilitary activity and the activity levels there has

:35:43. > :35:46.been in the province, the bomb attacks, the murder attempts, it is

:35:47. > :35:54.worth reminding ourselves of some of those statistics and how they

:35:55. > :35:59.compare to 2015. Five security related deaths, more than 2015, 29

:36:00. > :36:07.bombings as other way members have referred to. 29 more bombing

:36:08. > :36:13.incidents than 2015. 66 paramilitary thoughts, 14 more than 2015. There

:36:14. > :36:18.is clearly a need to address legislatively, at least to have the

:36:19. > :36:23.opportunity to do that, to address the rising tide there is in

:36:24. > :36:30.paramilitary activity, so while the jury trial as the Minister has

:36:31. > :36:35.referred to is only 2%, it is vital and I believe critical that we have

:36:36. > :36:41.in our armoury nonjury trials and the ability to use it when necessary

:36:42. > :36:44.to catch those involved in criminal activity through the court process

:36:45. > :36:49.and put them in jail, where they should belong. Therefore it is

:36:50. > :36:55.welcoming to know that our government, led by the Minister, led

:36:56. > :37:00.by the Prime Minister as well, are all in support of this legislation.

:37:01. > :37:02.They are fully committed to ensuring that criminal activities across

:37:03. > :37:06.Northern Ireland will be severely dealt with, and if the non-jury

:37:07. > :37:13.trials is the method of doing that, let's do it, irrespective of what

:37:14. > :37:16.that might be. So we can all ensure that the critical activities --

:37:17. > :37:20.criminal activities across Northern Ireland are decreased and that

:37:21. > :37:22.normality, because we all look towards normality, we live in a

:37:23. > :37:25.different Northern Ireland today than we did many years ago but there

:37:26. > :37:32.are still some tips -- steps to take. Along with the shadow minister

:37:33. > :37:33.and all other ministers who have spoken, we are particularly

:37:34. > :37:37.interested to see the Northern Ireland assembly get back on the

:37:38. > :37:42.road again and that democracy is in place, but it can only happen with

:37:43. > :37:47.great respect if other parties except the reality of the situation,

:37:48. > :37:51.and enter into talks, talks that can deliver the long-term vision of

:37:52. > :37:55.peace that we all want, but one that is based and will be acceptable to

:37:56. > :38:03.the Unionist population, which very clearly we support, thank you. May I

:38:04. > :38:07.join colleagues across the house in congratulating you on your election,

:38:08. > :38:11.Madam Deputy Speaker, and welcoming the Minister to her place? I rise

:38:12. > :38:16.today to speak briefly to extend the nonjury

:38:17. > :38:23.as the minister indicated from the dispatch box, this is a pragmatic

:38:24. > :38:27.and practical response to the unique circumstances we continue to

:38:28. > :38:30.experience in Northern Ireland. This would be the fifth extension of the

:38:31. > :38:34.provisions in the first introduced in 2007 by the then Labour

:38:35. > :38:37.government, but the temporary nature of the provisions does indicate the

:38:38. > :38:41.fact the government acknowledges this is a unique and acceptable

:38:42. > :38:45.situation, a situation that should be reviewed on a regular basis as my

:38:46. > :38:48.honourable and gallant friend indicated. It is a credit to this

:38:49. > :38:53.house that we make Parliamentary time available to do so. It is also

:38:54. > :38:57.a situation that should be ended as soon as it is no longer needed, as

:38:58. > :38:59.the Minister rightly said when the security situation in Northern

:39:00. > :39:04.Ireland improves and is much more stable. But as the whole house will

:39:05. > :39:07.now unfortunately the security situation remains volatile and in

:39:08. > :39:12.some cases of serious concern. In the last year alone there have been

:39:13. > :39:15.five security related deaths, more than 60 shooting incident and my

:39:16. > :39:24.study bombing incidents recorded by the PS Anaya.

:39:25. > :39:34.Members across the whole house will now it remains severe. That is its

:39:35. > :39:39.official classification and it continues to pose some risks to the

:39:40. > :39:50.criminal justice system. The extension of this order is

:39:51. > :39:53.necessary. As other honourable members have indicated, there are

:39:54. > :40:01.some safeguards in the order, which make it a practical response. Less

:40:02. > :40:04.than 2% of all Crown Court cases are tried in these positions, the

:40:05. > :40:07.Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland has to meet a

:40:08. > :40:11.statutory test before he can issue his certificate. The judge in the

:40:12. > :40:14.trial must give reasons for his decision and people convicted under

:40:15. > :40:19.this provision are still entitled to the right of appeal. In short, this

:40:20. > :40:23.is a fair and proportionate measure, designed to target a very small

:40:24. > :40:28.number of exceptional cases and reflects the unique situation in

:40:29. > :40:31.Northern Ireland. Other honourable and gallant friends have referred to

:40:32. > :40:35.the government's public consultation, which I have also come

:40:36. > :40:39.and I want to draw the house's attention to a few of those point

:40:40. > :40:43.and I hope they can be given weight when members decide to support this

:40:44. > :40:46.or not. Firstly it is important to note that the majority of

:40:47. > :40:50.respondents to the consultation supported the extension of the

:40:51. > :40:53.order. The Chief Commissioner of the Northern Ireland human rights

:40:54. > :40:53.commission acknowledge the ongoing security imprecations and suggested

:40:54. > :41:05.it should be extended. The the PSNI itself has argued there are

:41:06. > :41:08.a limited number of cases where continuing risks to the

:41:09. > :41:12.administration of justice justifies extension of this order, and that

:41:13. > :41:16.others including the Independent review of the 2007 act, he says and

:41:17. > :41:19.I quote, nothing has happened or changed in the last two years to

:41:20. > :41:23.justify bringing these arrangements to an end. They are very

:41:24. > :41:26.authoritative and weighty contributions and I hope that

:41:27. > :41:32.members across the house will pay heed to them as we explore the

:41:33. > :41:36.extension of this order. I am also heartened that the government in it

:41:37. > :41:44.in response to the consultation reiterated its commitment. It

:41:45. > :41:47.recognises the temporary nature of the 2007 provisions and committed to

:41:48. > :41:54.keeping the operation of the provisions under the independent

:41:55. > :41:57.review of the 2007 act, who as other honourable members have said is

:41:58. > :42:00.doing a good job. I welcome all of these commitment is, they clearly

:42:01. > :42:03.demonstrate the government's commitment to make sure the draft

:42:04. > :42:07.order today is a proportionate response, which mitigate some of the

:42:08. > :42:16.ongoing risks to the security situation in Northern Ireland.

:42:17. > :42:23.I also welcome the efforts of the Secretary of State and all parties

:42:24. > :42:26.in Northern Ireland to restoring as soon as possible the default

:42:27. > :42:29.administration at Stormont, allowing the people of Taiwan to have

:42:30. > :42:34.jurisdiction over all kinds of matters that affect them from public

:42:35. > :42:38.services to the economy, security, the administration of justice. That

:42:39. > :42:42.is the long-term solution and something will want to see. A

:42:43. > :42:48.restored executive is the long-term way to address these key issues. But

:42:49. > :42:54.whilst we across this has worked towards the normalisation of

:42:55. > :42:57.politics we must all recognise the unique security situation that

:42:58. > :43:03.pertained in Northern Ireland. So I will support the extension and

:43:04. > :43:09.encourage other members to do so as well. I know everyone across this

:43:10. > :43:13.House and from all parties can acknowledge the significant progress

:43:14. > :43:16.there has been in Northern Ireland over the course of the last 30 years

:43:17. > :43:21.and that has been incredibly welcome. But on these benches and

:43:22. > :43:24.from others who have gone to Northern Ireland and seen the

:43:25. > :43:28.situation, put too many communities that progress has not been

:43:29. > :43:34.sufficient and there is a journey to go towards full transformation and

:43:35. > :43:40.peace. I know that was recognised in the good relations strategy. And

:43:41. > :43:44.that did recognise how far we have come but also recognised that more

:43:45. > :43:47.needs to be done to ensure those remaining communities can be brought

:43:48. > :43:56.fully to the table of transformation and peace. Northern Ireland has so

:43:57. > :44:00.much to give but for too long that potential has been stifled by the

:44:01. > :44:04.scourge of terrorism. I want to say that what is required in this

:44:05. > :44:08.situation is unreserved condemnation of terrorism but also working with

:44:09. > :44:12.those communities to try to ensure that transformation is fully

:44:13. > :44:17.complete. To that end I echo the words of so many already in this

:44:18. > :44:21.House that the best way to do that is by having a strong and stable

:44:22. > :44:26.government in Northern Ireland. Delivering for people and ensuring

:44:27. > :44:30.that that journey can be completed. This matter is not a devolved matter

:44:31. > :44:37.that we are discussing today but that stable government would help to

:44:38. > :44:42.secure that piece moving forward. The DUP have always been of the view

:44:43. > :44:45.that there is no need to bring the institutions in Northern Ireland

:44:46. > :44:49.down. And at this stage we said no barrier to getting those

:44:50. > :44:56.institutions re-established. -- we see no barrier. We urge all to drop

:44:57. > :45:00.redlines and get back into government to get delivery on health

:45:01. > :45:05.and education and that is the best way to build a stable future for

:45:06. > :45:10.everyone. Turning to the particular matter in relation to this debate it

:45:11. > :45:14.is with some sorrow that I stand here to welcome the fact that this

:45:15. > :45:18.extension will be in place in terms of the vote of this House drizzly

:45:19. > :45:24.but subject to that this extension will be in place for a further two

:45:25. > :45:28.years. I do think it. Unfortunately there aren't too many places issues

:45:29. > :45:34.around intimidation and threats. We had some of those figures today and

:45:35. > :45:39.for some people I know to listen to the scale of that ongoing activity

:45:40. > :45:43.may come as a shock. The reality is for the majority of people in

:45:44. > :45:47.Northern Ireland their day-to-day experience of living in Northern

:45:48. > :45:51.Ireland has changed dramatically and that is welcome. But there still is

:45:52. > :45:57.this threat ongoing from dissident republicans and across both

:45:58. > :46:06.communities. I do want as a previous member of the bar and spokesperson

:46:07. > :46:09.for the DUP and justice, I paid tribute to our justice system in

:46:10. > :46:15.Northern Ireland that for many decades through the darkest days of

:46:16. > :46:19.the troubles the judiciary and also those working as barristers and

:46:20. > :46:25.solicitors had to put up with many threats and intimidation. Not just

:46:26. > :46:28.jury members, the court served Northern Ireland well during that

:46:29. > :46:34.period under the Diplock system and that must continue to be protected,

:46:35. > :46:37.albeit in much smaller numbers and that is welcome, but still exist in

:46:38. > :46:43.the justice system and integrity of that must continue to be protected.

:46:44. > :46:46.And justice must be served. It is the centre of our democracy in

:46:47. > :46:49.Northern Ireland so it is with sorrow but I welcome the fact that

:46:50. > :46:54.this proposal has come here today and give my commitment that I will

:46:55. > :47:01.do all I can in the next number of years try to remove the necessity

:47:02. > :47:07.for this type measure. It is good to see you in your seat today Madam

:47:08. > :47:13.Deputy Speaker. I trained to work in criminal law and thiols -- always

:47:14. > :47:17.have a strong regard for trial by jury so it is with regret that we

:47:18. > :47:21.have the situation where we cannot sensibly offer that right. Therefore

:47:22. > :47:28.I think it is only right that this order it approved today by the

:47:29. > :47:32.House. An interesting -- interested to hear some of the reasons behind

:47:33. > :47:36.this. And hearing the comments from the member for Belfast South.

:47:37. > :47:40.Visiting Northern Ireland last year it is clear that things have changed

:47:41. > :47:44.and a lot has moved on since the agreement is back in the late 1990s.

:47:45. > :47:49.Yet there is still an undercurrent that makes this type of provision

:47:50. > :47:56.necessary. You only have to walk through part of the Falls Road to

:47:57. > :48:00.see the signs PSNI shortened to people should not inform to realise

:48:01. > :48:07.that people would still subvert the criminal justice system. And if we

:48:08. > :48:11.must protect the system of justice by making sure there is a slightly

:48:12. > :48:16.different provision to deal with those cases where someone may not be

:48:17. > :48:19.able to get a fair trial or a perverse outcome due to intimidation

:48:20. > :48:26.or potential threat, that maybe the jury system is not appropriate. When

:48:27. > :48:29.I trained in the Diplock courts, there were cited in England as a

:48:30. > :48:35.scenario where there was not trial by jury and of course as pointed out

:48:36. > :48:40.there are circumstances where there are provisions in UK law because of

:48:41. > :48:43.extreme circumstances weather has been intimidation of the jury and

:48:44. > :48:50.where someone has sought to avoid justice by that process. Of course

:48:51. > :48:53.it is not possible to have a democracy without Borders law and

:48:54. > :48:56.people must know that there is provision to prevent them using

:48:57. > :49:01.violence to avoid the justice that they should face. Of course it is

:49:02. > :49:05.welcome that the numbers are falling and the figures given by the

:49:06. > :49:10.Minister to give comfort that this is a provision only used when

:49:11. > :49:14.absolutely necessary. Whilst this is not to return to the Diplock courts

:49:15. > :49:17.by the back door it is about containing that principle that a

:49:18. > :49:21.justice system under attack can respond in a way that maintains

:49:22. > :49:25.fairness. But people still get a trial, still get the opportunity to

:49:26. > :49:29.put forward their case and all the burdens of evidence are still on the

:49:30. > :49:33.prosecution. Yet they do not have a jury of 12 people who can be

:49:34. > :49:44.intimidated or seen as a chance to deliver a result that is not the one

:49:45. > :49:47.justice demands. So for me it is with a sense of regret being here to

:49:48. > :49:50.support this measure but I think it is an absolute proportionate measure

:49:51. > :49:52.and I do not think the justice system in Northern Ireland can be

:49:53. > :49:55.without it at this moment. Of course we would all hope there does not

:49:56. > :49:58.need to be another renewal of this measure but I think it is about

:49:59. > :50:03.bringing practical not just philosophical. Although projections

:50:04. > :50:07.of a criminal trial are there, the only differences there is no jury

:50:08. > :50:12.that can intimidated. Or would feel it could not give a fair verdict.

:50:13. > :50:15.Due to an implicit level of intimidation that may be present if

:50:16. > :50:21.they were trying a particular case. It is about paying tribute to those

:50:22. > :50:25.who continue to administer law and order and justice in the most

:50:26. > :50:27.difficult and challenging circumstances with people known to

:50:28. > :50:32.be those who would seek to intimidate and avoid being held

:50:33. > :50:38.responsible for the crimes they have committed. So I say this is the

:50:39. > :50:45.proportionate measure and something that sadly is necessary and

:50:46. > :50:57.something that has my full support. I just want to make a few points. I

:50:58. > :51:02.want to raise some issues. Of course I had expected the Minister when I

:51:03. > :51:07.made an intervention to have the full information at hand. And that

:51:08. > :51:14.was about the type of trial and the type of defendant that has been

:51:15. > :51:17.involved or who has been involved in non-jury trial. And the honourable

:51:18. > :51:22.member for Tewkesbury and the honourable member for South West

:51:23. > :51:27.Wiltshire said in fact it would be helpful if we did have some

:51:28. > :51:32.indication of both defendants who had gone through this process.

:51:33. > :51:38.Whether acquitted or not. By happy coincidence before coming into the

:51:39. > :51:41.Chamber I have a look at some research papers and I will stand to

:51:42. > :51:46.be corrected by the Minister if this is not the case, and have

:51:47. > :51:49.inadvertently mentioned these individuals but I do not think I

:51:50. > :51:55.have. So let me give some examples to the House. Michael Stone. Michael

:51:56. > :52:02.Stone, a very infamous, not famous, Stone, a very infamous, not famous,

:52:03. > :52:10.infamous murderer, Milltown murderers. Loyalist paramilitary. A

:52:11. > :52:17.gentleman called Chris Ward, apparently involved in the Northern

:52:18. > :52:21.bank robbery. A huge bank robbery. I would not like to say where the

:52:22. > :52:31.money went but I think a lot of the suspect it went to the IRA. The

:52:32. > :52:39.murder of Robert McCartney. A ghastly, horrible murder. These are

:52:40. > :52:45.past cases. It is simply to give an example of those cases where

:52:46. > :52:52.non-jury trials I understand have been used. So all very serious

:52:53. > :52:59.issues, serious cases indeed. I think it is wholly appropriate to

:53:00. > :53:03.remind the House that this is an exceptional procedure, non-jury

:53:04. > :53:10.trials in these circumstances under the 2007 justice and security act is

:53:11. > :53:30.a very exceptional process. I would just remind the House also that as

:53:31. > :53:33.part of that 2007 legislation, no inference may be drawn by the court

:53:34. > :53:36.that a certificate has been issued in relation to the trial. I think

:53:37. > :53:47.that is important because our judiciary in Northern Ireland has

:53:48. > :53:50.been mentioned, the legal profession and judiciary in Northern Ireland

:53:51. > :53:54.terrorist threat over many long terrorist threat over many long

:53:55. > :53:56.years. The judiciary in Northern years. The judiciary in Northern

:53:57. > :54:03.Ireland are rigorously impartial and independent. The fact that the

:54:04. > :54:11.statistics show that acquittals from non-jury trials are very much in

:54:12. > :54:17.line with jury trials indicates that this is a very fair process, even if

:54:18. > :54:23.it is non-jury, it is a fair process we have remarkable judges who show

:54:24. > :54:29.impeccable judgment and also their impartiality. May I also just add

:54:30. > :54:42.with reference to the outgoing and retiring Director of Public

:54:43. > :54:48.Prosecutions, I know in fact there has been criticism of him including

:54:49. > :54:49.relation to the fact that he had relation to the fact that he

:54:50. > :54:58.been in a past life involved in advising those members who received

:54:59. > :55:03.comfort letters from both the Labour government and also the Conservative

:55:04. > :55:10.government. However in his evidence to the Northern Ireland affairs

:55:11. > :55:14.select committee as the deep -- as the DPP he made it quite clear that

:55:15. > :55:20.no one who received comfort letter could rest easy in their bed when he

:55:21. > :55:23.was director of the Department of Public prosecutions. I think he has

:55:24. > :55:27.been totally impartial in carrying out its functions at the DPP. It is

:55:28. > :55:31.a difficult job in Northern Ireland. The non-jury trial system in

:55:32. > :55:36.Northern Ireland is a challenge for everyone. But as the Minister knows

:55:37. > :55:42.and other members have given statistics about continued

:55:43. > :56:55.paramilitary activity, loyalist and republican, it is of serious

:56:56. > :57:31.concern. The threat Thank you madam death to the Speaker

:57:32. > :57:37.may I just say how that chair becomes you? -- Madam Deputy

:57:38. > :57:46.Speaker. Can I welcome the Minister to her new position as well, if that

:57:47. > :57:50.will get me to be called more often? Madam Deputy Speaker, I was the Army

:57:51. > :57:59.incident commander at Ballykelly, as many people know. The Ballykelly

:58:00. > :58:07.bomb, which detonated just after 11pm on six December 1980 two. The

:58:08. > :58:15.bomb was placed by the Irish National liberation Army, and took

:58:16. > :58:20.the lives of 17 young people. Several girls, I think four girls,

:58:21. > :58:27.but 11 soldiers, six of them were from my company. Including Lance

:58:28. > :58:32.Corporal Clinton Collins, who I had just finished playing squash with

:58:33. > :58:40.two hours before. And he had been promoted that Dave to Lance

:58:41. > :58:46.Corporal. For years later, I was the lead Army witness in the trial of, I

:58:47. > :58:57.think, five bombers in Belfast Crown Court. There was no jury, but if

:58:58. > :59:05.there had have been, they would have been grossly intimidated by what

:59:06. > :59:11.happened in that court. Throughout the evidence I gave, I was barracked

:59:12. > :59:22.from the public gallery, with words like" you're a dead man", "You've

:59:23. > :59:26.had it". Of course, it was incredibly unsettling and the court

:59:27. > :59:32.procedures couldn't seem to do much about it. Actually, after my

:59:33. > :59:37.evidence, not because of my evidence, I'm sure, the accused

:59:38. > :59:47.changed their pleas from not guilty to guilty. And they went down for

:59:48. > :59:58.what was meant to be life, but actually turned out to be only a few

:59:59. > :00:10.years. For my part, I was placed on a published terrorist death list.

:00:11. > :00:17.Indeed, a few years later, a terrorist team came to my house in

:00:18. > :00:27.Brussels, where I was serving as a Lieutenant Colonel in Nato, got out

:00:28. > :00:34.of the car, and spoke to my 13-year-old son, playing in the

:00:35. > :00:46.front garden. The intended to kill me. They asked my son whether his

:00:47. > :00:56.daddy was home. His daddy was home, but my son, perhaps alerted by the

:00:57. > :01:05.appearance and possibly the accent of the three men that approached

:01:06. > :01:11.him, said no, my daddy's not home. My daddy works three miles away in

:01:12. > :01:26.Nato headquarters, and he is not here. The men got back into their

:01:27. > :01:36.car and left. They killed two other servicemen on the German border

:01:37. > :01:45.later. They were trying to take vengeance on me for giving evidence

:01:46. > :01:52.in a court. I dread to think how much intimidation there would have

:01:53. > :01:58.been for people who may have been in the jury on that case. I dread to

:01:59. > :02:04.think how much intimidation would still continue to this day for

:02:05. > :02:15.trials like that, and others, as we have heard in the chamber this

:02:16. > :02:19.afternoon. Let me be absolutely clear none of us wants to have

:02:20. > :02:29.trials without a jury, no one in this place, but, right now, Northern

:02:30. > :02:33.Ireland requires nonjury trials, and every single member of this house

:02:34. > :02:44.should back that. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you, Madam

:02:45. > :02:50.Deputy Speaker, and can I begin my brief closing remarks by thanking my

:02:51. > :02:53.honourable friend for Beckenham for that moving and sombre and timely

:02:54. > :02:58.illustration of exactly the issues we are dealing with today. I am sure

:02:59. > :03:05.on the half of the whole house I thank him for showing that

:03:06. > :03:10.particular piece of his family's unfortunate incident. This is an

:03:11. > :03:15.appropriate point, is it not, to show our appreciation for the work

:03:16. > :03:20.of our Armed Forces, without whose courage we would never have had a

:03:21. > :03:23.political settlement, and to express our concern that former service

:03:24. > :03:33.personnel still face the possibility of trial formatters arriving out of

:03:34. > :03:35.the trouble is, -- for matters arising out of the troubles when

:03:36. > :03:42.terrorist murderers are able to walk free. I thank the honourable

:03:43. > :03:46.gentleman for his contribution. He will be very aware that at this

:03:47. > :03:49.point I am not able to deal with the fullness of the issues he raises,

:03:50. > :03:54.except to say in brief that we would all wish to see a way of dealing

:03:55. > :03:57.with legacy issues in Northern Ireland that is fair, balanced and

:03:58. > :04:02.proportionate, and we shall have to return to those more fully at a

:04:03. > :04:05.later time. I want to be able to work my way through some of the

:04:06. > :04:10.requests that have been made of me here this afternoon, and I shall do

:04:11. > :04:14.my best to move quite swiftly. Can I first of all thank the opposition

:04:15. > :04:22.spokesman, the honourable member for Ealing North, for his support for

:04:23. > :04:25.these measures, and for the additional reasons he adds to the

:04:26. > :04:33.argument that I think many of us share here today. He has asked how

:04:34. > :04:37.the review mechanism will work, and I can confirm that it is for the

:04:38. > :04:43.house for David Seymour to decide on the exact mechanisms of the

:04:44. > :04:47.independent review. His previous work has been very thorough and he

:04:48. > :04:50.will bring that oversight and transparency that we would all wish

:04:51. > :04:54.for the this subject, and I think that in some way 's answers some of

:04:55. > :04:56.the other points that have been made this afternoon, where there are

:04:57. > :05:00.bigger issues than we have in this order in front of us today. That

:05:01. > :05:11.independent review report will then be laid before both houses. With

:05:12. > :05:15.that be on an annual, biannual, six monthly basis? Annual, or at least I

:05:16. > :05:21.should say, the review will be part of David Seymour's annual review

:05:22. > :05:27.cycle, which I think I said in my annual remarks and I'm happy to make

:05:28. > :05:31.clear for the record. Moving on to the comments made by the erstwhile

:05:32. > :05:39.chair of the select committee, indeed still is, as we no doubt

:05:40. > :05:45.we'll see his service again in the house. He and a number of others

:05:46. > :05:50.have asked about the mechanisms of the criminal Justice act 2003, and I

:05:51. > :05:56.can confirm for the house that that act certainly remains in force. The

:05:57. > :05:59.threshold is different for the provisions in there. I am also

:06:00. > :06:05.looking at the honourable lady from North Down, who raised these very

:06:06. > :06:12.same points. Obviously the 2007 act was brought into power after the CJ

:06:13. > :06:18.a of 2003. The positions -- provisions we are looking at are

:06:19. > :06:23.designed to be complimentary to that act. The provisions we are looking

:06:24. > :06:28.at today are specific to Northern Ireland and were designed to be a

:06:29. > :06:34.way to dress its legacy of paramilitary activity and the risks

:06:35. > :06:42.that come from that to the population at large. I am afraid I

:06:43. > :06:47.must press on, I have a few minutes left to be able to answer quite a

:06:48. > :06:52.few people's points, the member for chook spree also asked whether one

:06:53. > :06:57.judge or more sat on these trials. I can confirm that in a nonjury trial

:06:58. > :07:03.it is a single judge. He and others have also asked what the trend is of

:07:04. > :07:06.the types of trials that use these provisions. As I confirmed earlier

:07:07. > :07:14.to the house, certainly we see provisions here, excuse me, trials

:07:15. > :07:16.here that have come from both the Republican and the loyalist sides of

:07:17. > :07:20.the community but what we have also seen drawn out in the debates today

:07:21. > :07:28.is that these are for criminal trials of all types, so long as the

:07:29. > :07:32.request falls under one of the four conditions and that the DPP is

:07:33. > :07:39.satisfied on the fifth point, then a certificate May be issued. I do note

:07:40. > :07:44.that others, the honourable lady from North Down, have gone further

:07:45. > :07:54.into what type of defendant have we seen under these provisions. I won't

:07:55. > :08:01.comment on individual cases in front of this chamber, except to confirm

:08:02. > :08:04.it very much is designed to be of use across communities and to

:08:05. > :08:10.protect the general public from the scourge of intimidation here. Moving

:08:11. > :08:15.on to the comments made by the honourable lady for Edinburgh and

:08:16. > :08:19.Leith. She asked about the human rights implications under this

:08:20. > :08:24.subject, and I am glad to have an opportunity to say a little more

:08:25. > :08:30.here. Of course, first of all, in the explanatory memorandum that the

:08:31. > :08:36.house has before it, the Secretary of State is of course clear that in

:08:37. > :08:39.his view the provisions do not infringe on equality and human

:08:40. > :08:48.rights measures. That is the simple part. But the more context part is

:08:49. > :08:58.that one of the reasons we feel it is necessary is that they've project

:08:59. > :09:05.-- protect's jewellers human rights. It is a Dureau's right to enjoy

:09:06. > :09:10.family life, to enjoy privacy. When I'm talking about the potential

:09:11. > :09:13.intimidation of juries, we must remember the way in which those

:09:14. > :09:22.apply, and indeed also it is possible to argue that if a person

:09:23. > :09:25.does not receive an unbiased jury trial, then it is possible that

:09:26. > :09:30.their rights as a defendant have also been compromised. I raised

:09:31. > :09:32.these points in brief just to say to the honourable lady and two others

:09:33. > :09:41.that these are complex issues, we feel confident that the act we are

:09:42. > :09:44.looking at today does not compromise human rights, and indeed upholds to

:09:45. > :09:49.the extent possible in the circumstances the right to a fair

:09:50. > :09:57.trial. Moving on to the points made by my honourable friend the South

:09:58. > :10:03.West Wiltshire, again he wanted granularity in the risks of where

:10:04. > :10:05.these measures have been used. As I say, I will not comment on

:10:06. > :10:08.individual cases but I would be happy to write to him and other

:10:09. > :10:16.members who have raised this point with a little more detail to further

:10:17. > :10:25.illustrate the kind of measures, excuse me, the kind of trials these

:10:26. > :10:32.may apply to. I would reiterate in response to my honourable friend 's

:10:33. > :10:38.that we do all want to look towards a world where these provisions are

:10:39. > :10:43.not necessary, and we have the opportunity to do that with the

:10:44. > :10:48.independent review coming up. Moving on to comments made by the

:10:49. > :10:53.honourable member for Strangford, I am glad to welcome his comments,

:10:54. > :10:56.because he emphasises the range of paramilitary criminality we are

:10:57. > :11:01.facing here and I am grateful for him for having placed that on the

:11:02. > :11:05.record of the house. I am equally grateful to the honourable members

:11:06. > :11:08.for haven't and Belfast South, for having illustrated further the

:11:09. > :11:13.reasons we should all be able to further support these measures and I

:11:14. > :11:27.particularly welcome the lady for Belfast South but only to her role.

:11:28. > :11:35.Moving on to the remaining points made by the honourable lady from

:11:36. > :11:40.North Down, I just wanted to dwell a little further on to the points of

:11:41. > :11:50.the Criminal Justice Act 2003. This has been used in England in two

:11:51. > :11:54.cases, most recently in 2004 come and a case that is in front of Leeds

:11:55. > :11:57.Crown Court this year. It has not yet been used in Northern Ireland,

:11:58. > :12:01.but as I said before, the two systems are designed to become

:12:02. > :12:07.Clement Ric. The remaining point I would just make under this heading

:12:08. > :12:11.is that the measures made available in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 do

:12:12. > :12:15.not address one remaining issue we are looking at here, which is the

:12:16. > :12:20.potential for bias injuries, and when we are talking around the

:12:21. > :12:23.potential perversion of a justice system, this is the remaining type

:12:24. > :12:26.of provision we haven't particularly been able to speak about the Vale

:12:27. > :12:47.have the time to go into in more detail.

:12:48. > :12:56.I am confident the honourable lady and some of her near neighbours are

:12:57. > :13:07.familiar with these issues, and like the whole house, want to CNN to --

:13:08. > :13:16.want to see an end to it, want to see a move to renew, refresh the

:13:17. > :13:22.executive in Northern Ireland so that they can play their part in

:13:23. > :13:25.ensuring a robust criminal justice system that serves all the

:13:26. > :13:29.communities of Northern Ireland. I will draw my comments to a close

:13:30. > :13:42.there, I commend this audit to the House. The question is as on the

:13:43. > :13:48.order paper, those see aye. On the contrary, no. I think the ayes have

:13:49. > :13:55.it, the ayes have it. Point of order. In the last half an hour, the

:13:56. > :13:58.Department for pensions have made available a written statement

:13:59. > :14:05.outlining the closure of Jobcentres across the country, leading to a

:14:06. > :14:10.loss of 750 jobs, including in my constituency. This story was buried

:14:11. > :14:16.to the media today and though minister has come to the House to be

:14:17. > :14:19.able to be scrutinised or asked questions about this catastrophic

:14:20. > :14:25.decision which will lead to jobs. That shows contempt for the House,

:14:26. > :14:28.for scrutiny and for the people who are losing their jobs. I wonder if

:14:29. > :14:31.you could advise me of how we can ensure that when government

:14:32. > :14:42.ministers make an announcement, they do it properly in this House. This

:14:43. > :14:46.was raised earlier by another honourable member. And I am sure the

:14:47. > :14:51.Treasury benches will be aware it has been raise a second time and is

:14:52. > :14:56.therefore a cause of some concern to honourable members. The Speaker

:14:57. > :15:00.earlier advised that perhaps honourable members might consider

:15:01. > :15:07.raising this ad business questions tomorrow. So I think I will leave it

:15:08. > :15:18.at that. We now come to the general debate on the Israel and Palestine

:15:19. > :15:24.talks. Thank you. I am pleased to move that this House has considered

:15:25. > :15:28.Israel and Palestinian talks. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm conscious

:15:29. > :15:31.looking around the chamber, that there are a lot of colleagues

:15:32. > :15:34.wanting to speak and is a great deal of knowledge about the subject in

:15:35. > :15:39.the House. Accordingly I don't intend to speak along from the

:15:40. > :15:42.dispatch box by opening on the basis that would give me more time at the

:15:43. > :15:45.end to respond to some of the questions that are bound to come

:15:46. > :15:49.out. Having knocked around this issue for about 30 years, as some of

:15:50. > :15:54.those here have done, I know many of the issues are well-known and

:15:55. > :15:57.therefore a restatement of them is probably less effective than dealing

:15:58. > :16:02.with questions and looking at current issues, and so that is what

:16:03. > :16:05.I intend to do. Forgive me if I don't have anything in an opening,

:16:06. > :16:10.no offence is intended, but it is intended to give me more time when I

:16:11. > :16:15.close to deal with the major questions if I may. I am pleased the

:16:16. > :16:20.debate has been tabled and to have the opportunity to discuss the

:16:21. > :16:23.important issue. A just and lasting settlement between Israelis and

:16:24. > :16:27.Palestinians that resolves the elements of conflict between them

:16:28. > :16:32.and delivers peace for all the peoples is long overdue. And desired

:16:33. > :16:36.by friends are both all over the world. And lasting peace between the

:16:37. > :16:40.Israelis and Palestinians will only come about through a two state

:16:41. > :16:48.solution negotiated between the parties, that is the UK's position.

:16:49. > :16:51.I am grateful for my right honourable friend the giving away,

:16:52. > :16:57.and I welcome his place. Isn't one of the tragedies of this conflict

:16:58. > :17:01.that for many, many years, both sides seemed to know what a deal

:17:02. > :17:06.looks like, but sadly never get there. One of the views in the

:17:07. > :17:12.middle east, in the region, is part of that is because how Mass cannot

:17:13. > :17:16.agree, and some will say they do not want to see a peace deal because it

:17:17. > :17:24.doesn't suit their personal interests. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:17:25. > :17:29.there are many blockages on the way to peace, and the number of them

:17:30. > :17:34.will come up during the course of the debate. Hamas's position is

:17:35. > :17:39.plainly one of them. There are plenty. It is indeed, as my

:17:40. > :17:43.honourable friend said, long-standing tragedy that the broad

:17:44. > :17:46.outlines of what many of those considered to be a deal are

:17:47. > :17:48.available and are known, but the steps needed to convert that into

:17:49. > :17:57.action have not yet been taken. What the Israeli government in

:17:58. > :18:02.relation to the extension of the settlements in Jerusalem, and what

:18:03. > :18:08.discussions have the government had about sanctions? If I was able to

:18:09. > :18:12.pursue my original course of action, which was a state a few things and

:18:13. > :18:16.put some things on the record and then deal with the questions,

:18:17. > :18:25.settlements will come up. It might take two more intervention just

:18:26. > :18:30.now... The honourable lady, please. I congratulate him on his elevation

:18:31. > :18:34.to the front bench again. Could I ask him his view on some of the

:18:35. > :18:40.peace builders, the ecumenical visitors, who accompany various

:18:41. > :18:47.groups between both parties and attempt to build bridges? Again, I

:18:48. > :18:52.will come to issues like to track possibilities in time. So many

:18:53. > :18:56.people have a contribution to make, and it's one of the agonies of what

:18:57. > :19:00.we are talking about, that so many people urge goodwill and want to see

:19:01. > :19:05.the resolution and that the blockages on the way that prevented

:19:06. > :19:10.happening, but everyone with good intent is welcome into the process.

:19:11. > :19:16.Can I welcome him back again to the front bench, it is good to see him

:19:17. > :19:21.back in his plays, and also back at the FCO. This debate too often

:19:22. > :19:25.becomes polarised, can we establish one thing, which is that in all

:19:26. > :19:30.things, this debate should be reasonable? Will he condemned the

:19:31. > :19:33.recent march in London and the banner of flags? And some of the

:19:34. > :19:39.plundering of those who consider ourselves to be supporters of the

:19:40. > :19:44.state of Israel? In the general election campaign, I had a supporter

:19:45. > :19:49.of the leader of edition screaming his name as me, then proceeding to

:19:50. > :19:54.describe me as Israeli scum and Zionist scum for the simple fact I

:19:55. > :19:57.listed myself as a friend of Israel, and a friend of the Palestinian

:19:58. > :20:07.people. That behaviour is unacceptable. I thank my honourable

:20:08. > :20:11.friend for his remarks. It has become a sad part of our political

:20:12. > :20:20.life has been commented upon by colleagues on both sides, that the

:20:21. > :20:24.extremism of language and the deliberate design to hurt or

:20:25. > :20:30.belittle those of different views has become part of modern political

:20:31. > :20:33.discourse. In issues such as this, which is extremely sensitive, which

:20:34. > :20:38.is well balanced, in which there are strong views on both sides, and

:20:39. > :20:43.deeply ingrained worries and insecurities about taking steps

:20:44. > :20:48.forward, that sort of language is absolutely no place and should

:20:49. > :20:53.not... Never have any place in this House, but for those outside, it

:20:54. > :20:57.doesn't help their arguments or any of us to reach to reach to our

:20:58. > :21:03.friends to find a solution. If I take one more and then I would like

:21:04. > :21:06.to make some progress. I likewise welcome. Affirmative the

:21:07. > :21:12.intervention of my honourable friend, many of my constituents were

:21:13. > :21:17.upset and offended to see the flag flying on the streets of London at

:21:18. > :21:23.the recent rally. What can the government do to stop this? This is

:21:24. > :21:27.a representation of a due hating terrorist organisation, and can

:21:28. > :21:37.anything be done to ban this hateful organisation? I am pleased to be

:21:38. > :21:41.back at the dispatch box, I'm grateful for so many kind comments

:21:42. > :21:51.and appreciated. It is the base like this that remind me what I've got

:21:52. > :21:56.myself back into. I saw the flags, the military arm is prescribed in

:21:57. > :22:02.the UK, we have no contact with the political wing of Hezbollah. I saw

:22:03. > :22:08.pictures of flags which belonged to them, which portrayed arms upon them

:22:09. > :22:13.and a little sticker designed to deflect legal action. I am not

:22:14. > :22:17.acting as a lawyer, I do not know whether the carrying of those flags

:22:18. > :22:23.with that sticker or against the law or not, and I think that is for a

:22:24. > :22:26.call to raise. However, I would add I can't see in the circumstances

:22:27. > :22:31.they add anything to the debate or enable the people of the UK to take

:22:32. > :22:34.a full part in the reasons and difficult discussions we need to

:22:35. > :22:37.have over this issue, no matter how strongly we feel about them pull

:22:38. > :22:44.some I'm grateful my honourable friend has raised it. If I may not,

:22:45. > :22:50.let me carry on, the right honourable gentleman, who is a great

:22:51. > :22:55.friend, will get a chance to speak. I share the frustration of all of us

:22:56. > :23:00.at the lack of progress in relation to any peace settlement. The tragic

:23:01. > :23:04.situation on the ground at present Devon says the urgency of the need

:23:05. > :23:08.to progress towards peace. We need to see revived efforts from the

:23:09. > :23:11.Palestinian authority and the Israeli government, and we urge both

:23:12. > :23:17.sides to work together to meet their obligations under the Oslo accords.

:23:18. > :23:20.Both the authorities should do all they can to reverse the negative

:23:21. > :23:25.trends identified in the report released by the middle East Quartet

:23:26. > :23:31.into by 2016. To look at the blockages and balanced in it, in

:23:32. > :23:37.relation to the Palestinian authority. I continue to welcome his

:23:38. > :23:41.commitment to a two state solution. It is important the Palestinian

:23:42. > :23:44.leadership engages with determination and makes a success,

:23:45. > :23:48.having known the present many years I'm sure he's aware of the

:23:49. > :23:55.importance of the opportunity set out by President from's recent

:23:56. > :23:58.engagement. It is critical that the Palestinian leadership implements to

:23:59. > :24:02.recommendations and continued their efforts to tackle terror and

:24:03. > :24:05.incitement to strengthen their institutions and develop a

:24:06. > :24:10.sustainable economy. We must also recognise in this House damage the

:24:11. > :24:13.division between Hamas and the Palestinian authority does to the

:24:14. > :24:19.body politic, ultimately it is the innocent people of Gaza who have

:24:20. > :24:23.suffered from Administration. Hamas faces a fundamental decision about

:24:24. > :24:27.whether it is prepared to accept the principles and join efforts for

:24:28. > :24:29.peace or whether it will continue to use terror and anti-Semitic

:24:30. > :24:33.incitement, leading to terrible consequences for the people of Gaza

:24:34. > :24:40.and Israel and the failure to close it and make progress. Gaza must

:24:41. > :24:44.remain a future constituent part of a future Palestinian state with the

:24:45. > :24:48.West Bank and East Jerusalem as its capital. A further barrier to peace

:24:49. > :24:52.and difficult for the Palestinian authorities to deal with is the

:24:53. > :24:59.attitude taken towards terrorists as martyrs. Although the track record

:25:00. > :25:02.of President Bass has shown his genuine commitment to nonviolence,

:25:03. > :25:08.this still remains an area of great difficulty. On the Israeli

:25:09. > :25:12.government site, it is important the government of Israel continues to

:25:13. > :25:17.reaffirm its commitment to a two state solution. Every Israeli Prime

:25:18. > :25:23.Minister since 1990s has advocated a two state solution as the only to

:25:24. > :25:26.permanently end the conflict and preserve Israel's Jewish and

:25:27. > :25:31.democratic identity. There are differences of opinion within

:25:32. > :25:36.society which has changed a great deal over 30 years. There are

:25:37. > :25:43.concerns about security from other areas, and it is clear in opinion,

:25:44. > :25:48.although everyone wants peace, actually seeing a solution between

:25:49. > :25:52.Israel and $ is not always the first item of the agenda. There's a real

:25:53. > :25:56.deficit of trust on both sides, and we encourage all parties to work

:25:57. > :26:03.together to find a lasting solution. I will give weight to the honourable

:26:04. > :26:07.gentleman. On the question of the two state solution and is ready

:26:08. > :26:12.support, I agree with him about the need for that to be achieved. Does

:26:13. > :26:19.he agree that continued settlement building risks making two states and

:26:20. > :26:23.viable? I'm not sure whether the honourable gentleman wrote my speech

:26:24. > :26:27.or has had early sight of it, but perhaps I can turn to the next

:26:28. > :26:32.paragraph before responding to my colleague. It is vital there is an

:26:33. > :26:36.environment conducive to fresh negotiations and avoid actions which

:26:37. > :26:41.undermine the viability of lasting peace. One such action is building

:26:42. > :26:45.settlements. The UK's view is clear and unchanged, it undermines the

:26:46. > :26:50.prospects of two states for two peoples. I'm concerned by reports

:26:51. > :26:55.this week plans to construct over 1800 new housing units in East

:26:56. > :26:58.Jerusalem. All settlements in the UK's view are illegal under

:26:59. > :27:03.international law. If confirmed, these plans would be the latest

:27:04. > :27:08.example of an accelerating policy of illegal settlement expansion. It

:27:09. > :27:11.takes us further away from it to Z solution, and raises serious

:27:12. > :27:15.questions about the Israeli government's commitment to achieving

:27:16. > :27:18.the shared vision of Israel, living side by side with a viable

:27:19. > :27:22.independent and continuous Palestinian state. We have been

:27:23. > :27:25.clear, and I have said the being clear, that settlements are far from

:27:26. > :27:28.the only problem in this conflict, and in this House we want to be

:27:29. > :27:33.careful we don't get sidetracked on one side or the other, it is not all

:27:34. > :27:37.about one thing or the other. That is a problem, there are simply

:27:38. > :27:41.different things, but the people of Israel deserve to live free from the

:27:42. > :27:50.threat of terrorism and anti-Semitic incitement.

:27:51. > :27:56.We are gravely concerned that an increase in the pace of settlement

:27:57. > :28:00.construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank represents a strategic

:28:01. > :28:05.threat to the peaceful resolution of this conflict. As a strong friend of

:28:06. > :28:08.Israel, we urge the Israeli government to show restraint on

:28:09. > :28:11.settlement constructions and to avoid steps that reduce the prospect

:28:12. > :28:15.of peace and security in the region and make it harder to achieve a

:28:16. > :28:21.front relationship between Israel and the Arab world. I thank my right

:28:22. > :28:26.now friend forgiving way. Is it not worth noting that in recent polling

:28:27. > :28:29.a clear majority of both Israelis and Palestinians want peace and a

:28:30. > :28:34.clear majority are in favour of a two state put solution? But is it

:28:35. > :28:37.also very hard to see that happening when her mass itself remains

:28:38. > :28:43.committed to the destruction of Israel, and does he not agree with

:28:44. > :28:51.me that how mass routinely and completely routinely let down

:28:52. > :28:59.Palestinian people -- how mass -- ten one. The desire in the areas

:29:00. > :29:04.concerned is very much for peace. The awkwardness is how to get there.

:29:05. > :29:08.I said before from this dispatch box there always 100 reasons to say no.

:29:09. > :29:11.We have to find those reasons why people should say yes and I can't

:29:12. > :29:16.think of anyone better than my right honourable friend. I am very

:29:17. > :29:21.grateful to the Minister forgiving way and very pleased to see him back

:29:22. > :29:26.in his rightful place. As we have just been debating in Northern

:29:27. > :29:32.Ireland and history there has taught us one thing, that courageous

:29:33. > :29:34.political leadership and a willingness to compo misers

:29:35. > :29:39.absolutely essential for progress. So does he share my view that it is

:29:40. > :29:45.the absence of such courageous political leadership on the part of

:29:46. > :29:48.all sides in the current Israel- Palestine conflict that is the

:29:49. > :29:54.biggest obstacle to bringing about the piece that all of us wish to

:29:55. > :29:57.see? I think what the right honourable gentleman suggest is that

:29:58. > :30:00.there is a gap into which courageous leadership should come. It is

:30:01. > :30:08.certainly true that for every courageous step taken, there are

:30:09. > :30:10.issues which poor people back, and sometimes demonstrate that a

:30:11. > :30:17.courageous position might not be well enough rewarded. Gaza for

:30:18. > :30:21.example has not brought the swap of land for peace that the Israeli

:30:22. > :30:25.government intended when it left, so sometimes there is pressure that

:30:26. > :30:28.courageous acts are not followed, because it might make the situation

:30:29. > :30:41.worse. What the outside world needs to do is to assist. That is what the

:30:42. > :30:44.situation is calling for. If I may make just a little more progress and

:30:45. > :30:52.then look to finish, otherwise I would be able to fulfil my

:30:53. > :30:59.commitment. A third element, having looked at the United States, if

:31:00. > :31:02.those one area of the world where the recently elected president of

:31:03. > :31:08.the United States is engaged in it is clearly the Middle East and it is

:31:09. > :31:11.Israel. So we welcome his strong leadership on the issue of Middle

:31:12. > :31:15.East peace, as underlined by his visit to the region. It is incumbent

:31:16. > :31:19.upon all parties to seize whatever new opportunities there may be to

:31:20. > :31:26.take the chance of moving forward for peace. So we look forward to

:31:27. > :31:29.working with President Trump and his advisers for a peace deal that meets

:31:30. > :31:36.the requirement of both parties, reflects our long-standing solution

:31:37. > :31:44.for a two state solution. I will take one last intervention if I may.

:31:45. > :31:47.Just coming back to this point, historically when a two state

:31:48. > :31:51.solution has almost been reached, it has been on the basis of

:31:52. > :31:57.negotiations where there were no preconditions between either side,

:31:58. > :32:08.and that has to be a fundamental issue. No preconditions lead to

:32:09. > :32:12.potential two state solution. I agree, it is not for those of us

:32:13. > :32:18.from outside to suggest or dictate terms or anything else, but it is

:32:19. > :32:21.clear that if movement is to be made in a situation where everyone is so

:32:22. > :32:25.familiar with it, there should be as few constraints as possible and

:32:26. > :32:29.having an absence of any condition before Google talk is probably one

:32:30. > :32:34.of those things we all know happens behind-the-scenes, and it is

:32:35. > :32:37.important that is recognised. I thank the Minister forgiving way. I

:32:38. > :32:43.visited the region almost two years ago, and one of the many things that

:32:44. > :32:46.struck me was around the detention of child prisoners in Palestine

:32:47. > :32:49.taken through the military court system and there are many

:32:50. > :32:52.allegations of abuse. I know the Minister is a very decent man and I

:32:53. > :32:57.hope he will look at this within his role. I thank the honourable lady

:32:58. > :33:00.very much, yes, this is an issue I have been long engaged with and

:33:01. > :33:05.there are current discussions going on with the Israeli authorities

:33:06. > :33:09.about the holding of children in military detention, which the United

:33:10. > :33:13.Kingdom has expressed its concern about and she can be assured I will

:33:14. > :33:19.do so again. Two final things if I made to finish, to recognise that

:33:20. > :33:23.this is the centenary of the Balfour declaration, a part of our history

:33:24. > :33:27.which divides opinion in this country in the region, and we will

:33:28. > :33:31.treat it sensibly. I don't think it is incompatible to be proud of the

:33:32. > :33:35.United Kingdom Fozz in the creation of the state of Israel, and yet feel

:33:36. > :33:38.sadness that the long-standing issues between the relative

:33:39. > :33:43.communities created by it have not yet been resolved. It was a historic

:33:44. > :33:47.statement and the UK is proud of its role in the creation of Israel but

:33:48. > :33:52.it is unfinished business, and accordingly in the St Andrew year,

:33:53. > :34:02.we are especially focused -- in this centenary year, the take steps to

:34:03. > :34:05.bring them closer to peace. Does he agree with me that any recognition

:34:06. > :34:11.of a Palestinian state before direct peace talks between the two states

:34:12. > :34:20.would not only be counter-productive, but with damage

:34:21. > :34:24.a long-term two state solution? It is not the United Kingdom's

:34:25. > :34:27.intention to recognise the Palestinian state. We believe it

:34:28. > :34:30.should come in due course in conclusion to the talks that settled

:34:31. > :34:34.the issue and I don't believe that position will change. If I make

:34:35. > :34:39.conclude because the house has been very patient, we will continue to

:34:40. > :34:43.work through multilateral institutions, including the UN and

:34:44. > :34:47.the EU, to support resolutions and policies that enquired,

:34:48. > :34:57.while recognising it will eventually be only for the two sides themselves

:34:58. > :35:01.to come to the success. Can I thank the Lazarus of the front bench

:35:02. > :35:08.forgiving way, but I would hope that before he concludes I would hope he

:35:09. > :35:13.will mention and deal with the extremely unhelpful role of Iran in

:35:14. > :35:16.the affairs of Israel and indeed the wider Middle East and not least in

:35:17. > :35:23.this context of their very strong support for Hezbollah and a mass,

:35:24. > :35:27.and apropos of that, isn't it really time that we call time on this

:35:28. > :35:33.Charente of differentiating between the military and the political wing

:35:34. > :35:36.of Hezbollah rushed up if the right honourable gentleman will forgive me

:35:37. > :35:39.maybe I can come to that issue in conclusion re-remarks because

:35:40. > :35:43.otherwise again I have been unfair to the war by going on too long. The

:35:44. > :35:46.United Kingdom is also strongly supportive of a regional approach to

:35:47. > :35:51.peace. There has never been a better time because of the relationship of

:35:52. > :35:54.Arab states with Israel over a variety of different matters to try

:35:55. > :35:59.and make sure they are playing an active part, both in helping to

:36:00. > :36:03.resolve Palestinian issues, but also recognising that the recognition of

:36:04. > :36:06.Israel, the plugging in of Israel to the economy of the Middle East would

:36:07. > :36:10.have a profound impact right through the Middle East, where there is a

:36:11. > :36:13.demographic bulge and where any jobs will need to be created. There are

:36:14. > :36:18.several good reasons for this to be resolved. We believe Arab states

:36:19. > :36:22.have a particular role to play. In conclusion, we remain committed to

:36:23. > :36:26.encouraging both the Israelis and Palestinians to revive the lies the

:36:27. > :36:31.peace process. International action has an important role to play.

:36:32. > :36:34.Alternately, however, an agreement can only be achieved by direct

:36:35. > :36:38.negotiation between the parties. Only Israelis and Palestinians can

:36:39. > :36:41.bring about the lasting peace that their people seek and that is long

:36:42. > :36:44.over jeweller and I am absolutely certain of a single one of us in

:36:45. > :36:51.this house would want to wish them well in that and encourage them in

:36:52. > :37:04.such efforts. The question is that this house has considered Israel and

:37:05. > :37:08.Palestinian talks. Emily Thornberry. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me begin

:37:09. > :37:11.by welcoming as so many of us have the new Minister of State for the

:37:12. > :37:15.Middle East to his new position. When he fulfilled it in a more

:37:16. > :37:20.junior role, he did so with great distension for a number of years and

:37:21. > :37:24.I am sure he will do so again. And I am sure he will continue to bring

:37:25. > :37:27.the same passion that he always has the cause of finding peace between

:37:28. > :37:35.Israel and Palestine, as he always does do the issues he brings to this

:37:36. > :37:38.house. Madame Debuchy Speaker, my pleasure at welcoming the new

:37:39. > :37:41.Secretary of State to his role is tempered by the fact that I do truly

:37:42. > :37:46.believe that if the government calls a debate on such a serious foreign

:37:47. > :37:51.policy issue as the future of talks between Israel and Palestine, the

:37:52. > :37:56.first time I believe the ten years, then such a debate is held in

:37:57. > :37:58.government time, and it would not be unreasonable to expect in no

:37:59. > :38:02.circumstances that the Foreign Secretary himself would make the

:38:03. > :38:06.effort to lead that discussion. Although, as I say, I don't mean to

:38:07. > :38:10.undermine how much I welcome the Minister and what it is the has said

:38:11. > :38:17.today, I do think that though some members might disagree, can I put it

:38:18. > :38:20.in this way? When Arthur Balfour, Britain's Foreign Secretary, decided

:38:21. > :38:24.100 years ago that the British government should publicly declare

:38:25. > :38:28.its support for a national home for the Jewish people come he wrote the

:38:29. > :38:31.letter in his own name, he did not delegate the task to his junior

:38:32. > :38:35.ministers because Balfour will realise that not only words matters

:38:36. > :38:39.but who says that matters very much. And who is saying them does matter

:38:40. > :38:42.very much. So I regret that the Foreign Secretary has chosen not to

:38:43. > :38:49.speak today, and I am afraid it is all part of a pattern, because since

:38:50. > :38:54.the Yom Kippur War in 1973 we have fought 12 elections in this country,

:38:55. > :38:58.and the party opposite has published 12 manifestos, and during the whole

:38:59. > :39:02.period, the election just gone is only the second time that the Tory

:39:03. > :39:08.party has failed to mention the Middle East even wants and the whole

:39:09. > :39:11.of their manifesto. Even in the 2005 manifesto, a document so parochial,

:39:12. > :39:15.insular and isolationist that it didn't even mention Russia or the

:39:16. > :39:19.United States, even that manifesto at that time said, and I quote, "We

:39:20. > :39:24.will work to achieve peace in the Middle East based on the principle

:39:25. > :39:29.of Israel secure within its borders and a viable Palestinian state". Ten

:39:30. > :39:34.years later in their 2015 manifesto, this is what the Conservative Party

:39:35. > :39:37.said, "We will support a two state solution to the Israel Palestine

:39:38. > :39:45.conflict, robustly defending the right of Israel to defend security

:39:46. > :39:48.while continuing to condemn Palestine settlement building, which

:39:49. > :39:53.undermines the prospect of peace". So we have to ask ourselves what has

:39:54. > :40:02.changed? Why has the party opposite been prepared to spell out their

:40:03. > :40:07.middle East policy in 1997, 2001, 2005, 2010, and just two years ago

:40:08. > :40:12.in 2015? Why was it prepared to do that on all of those occasions, but

:40:13. > :40:23.this latest manifesto says absolutely nothing, or as some might

:40:24. > :40:26.say, klum. I don't know what the Foreign Secretary's explanation is

:40:27. > :40:30.this, and we're not going to find out today. It might be that he might

:40:31. > :40:36.blame Nick Timothy or his good friend Sir Lynton Crosby, but I have

:40:37. > :40:41.got to say that I drafted my section of Labour's manifesto, so why did

:40:42. > :40:44.the Foreign Secretary trust someone else to do it? I am very grateful

:40:45. > :40:48.for the Shadow Foreign Secretary forgiving way. That may be the case

:40:49. > :40:54.the Conservatives did not cover this issue in our manifesto, but at least

:40:55. > :40:58.we didn't elect a leader who views Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends.

:40:59. > :41:01.I think it is important when debating this matter to debate it

:41:02. > :41:06.seriously and to raise serious matters before us, and I am

:41:07. > :41:11.surprised at the tone of that the honourable lady introduces. I have

:41:12. > :41:15.to say that if she wants to continue to use the Lynton Crosby style of

:41:16. > :41:20.politics in this place, I have to say that it is discredited, outdated

:41:21. > :41:24.and doesn't work on and surely it is better to actually engage on the

:41:25. > :41:28.substance of this. And the point that I am making today is that the

:41:29. > :41:31.Conservative Party at the last general election did not mention the

:41:32. > :41:35.Middle East, did not mention Palestine or Israel and I am coming

:41:36. > :41:36.on in my speech to wonder why that is done to put forward a fewer

:41:37. > :41:50.explanations. A great deal of my constituents,

:41:51. > :41:54.many who are Jewish, are worried and troubled by the prospects on that

:41:55. > :42:00.aspires to be the Prime Minister of the UK should describe those two

:42:01. > :42:04.hating organisation as his friends. I will welcome the opportunity the

:42:05. > :42:12.Shadow Foreign Secretary to withdraw those comments which of course much

:42:13. > :42:16.upset. I think one way we could approach this is by looking at the

:42:17. > :42:23.truth of the situation, which is that the leader of my party wishes

:42:24. > :42:27.to engage people in peace, to bring people together and try to get them

:42:28. > :42:33.to discuss matters, because it is only through discussion and

:42:34. > :42:39.agreement that one can get progress. Let me just finished the point I'm

:42:40. > :42:44.making. If everyone will calm down. The point is this, I'm sure the

:42:45. > :42:48.honourable gentleman has some good ideas in terms of what the future of

:42:49. > :42:53.a peace process in Israel and Palestine might look like, it maybe

:42:54. > :42:58.he will get a letter from the Leader of the Opposition asking him up to

:42:59. > :43:02.the second floor and he can discuss it with him. He's happy to discuss

:43:03. > :43:08.the issue of peas and ideas people have and for there to be, for it to

:43:09. > :43:12.be one of the main guns of the Lynton Crosby campaign, which has

:43:13. > :43:17.not worked and to at Kontinen to be used, I won't take any further

:43:18. > :43:23.interventions from this line of the House if it is all about what Lynton

:43:24. > :43:28.Crosby can write. She has rightly talked about the seriousness of the

:43:29. > :43:32.issue, and our focus must urgently be on those living in Israel and

:43:33. > :43:35.Palestine and those who are suffering. What is important to

:43:36. > :43:41.acknowledge is the humanitarian situation and how that has worsened.

:43:42. > :43:47.2 million people are trapped in the Gaza Strip, half of them children.

:43:48. > :43:52.In 2012, the UN said Gaza would be unlovable by 2020, many people say

:43:53. > :43:58.that is already here. Do you not agree, tissue not agree that it is

:43:59. > :44:05.not important to focus on those issues and move forward some of the

:44:06. > :44:08.debate productively today? I think the honourable gentleman, Lady is

:44:09. > :44:15.right, when 80% of people who live in Gaza are independent on aid to

:44:16. > :44:20.survive, it is an important issue. My honourable friend, who will be

:44:21. > :44:23.standing up the debate, will deal with humanitarian issues. If I can

:44:24. > :44:28.go back to the point I was making, I will make some more progress was

:44:29. > :44:33.perhaps messages are sent out to Lynton Crosby for a different

:44:34. > :44:36.script. I've got to say, I drafted my section of the labour manifesto,

:44:37. > :44:43.so why do the Foreign Secretary trust someone else to draft his? The

:44:44. > :44:48.reason, I would suggest, is this... If we have always known in this

:44:49. > :44:53.country, ever since the Balfour declaration 100 years ago, that when

:44:54. > :44:56.states people in this country are prepared to put down their policies

:44:57. > :45:01.on the bill is, they have an impact. When they are set out by the most

:45:02. > :45:08.senior officials, they matter even more. And my fear is that when the

:45:09. > :45:11.Conservative Party fails to set others policies in respect the

:45:12. > :45:16.Middle ease, despite the very important things the honourable

:45:17. > :45:20.gentleman has said today, if it is not put out in the manifesto, not

:45:21. > :45:24.set by the Secretary of State, it does not have the same impact and

:45:25. > :45:29.that is important, because one that the Conservative Party fails to set

:45:30. > :45:34.out its policies, in its official manifesto, people on all sides of

:45:35. > :45:37.the debate, particularly people in Palestine and Israel, are left to

:45:38. > :45:42.interpret the silence they wish. Many of them will come to the

:45:43. > :45:47.conclusion I did. I fear the government could not repeat its 2015

:45:48. > :45:50.language supporting a two state solution. They could not repeat the

:45:51. > :45:54.language condemning illegal settlement building because on both

:45:55. > :45:58.of those points, they do not know as yet where Donald Trump stands. And

:45:59. > :46:02.until they do, they want nothing written in black and white because

:46:03. > :46:11.one day it might put down at odds with him. That isn't good enough. We

:46:12. > :46:15.cannot and it turned -- overturn decades of policies upheld by

:46:16. > :46:21.successive governments just because this pathetic government is happy to

:46:22. > :46:27.play patsy to Donald Trump. I'm very grateful for finally giving way. I

:46:28. > :46:31.can assure her that if her right honourable friend, if he has

:46:32. > :46:36.anything to say about Israel or Hamas, he can do it when he visits

:46:37. > :46:39.Hendon tomorrow, where we had the second largest Jewish community in

:46:40. > :46:45.the country. What I wanted Novus Shadow Foreign Secretary, which has

:46:46. > :46:49.been made clear today, according to her manifesto which she wrote, you

:46:50. > :46:57.will recognise the state of Palestine immediately. Yes or no? If

:46:58. > :47:00.the honourable gentleman will take his seat, relax, listen to the rest

:47:01. > :47:12.of my speech, I'm getting to that at a later stage of my speech. Only two

:47:13. > :47:17.years ago when we had a Coalition government, the then Foreign

:47:18. > :47:20.Secretary said the window of opportunity for a settlement was

:47:21. > :47:28.slowly and slowly vanishing. Would you not agree this is the reason

:47:29. > :47:34.possibly why the government never have really given up? The Minister

:47:35. > :47:39.concerned, when I asked in the question about sanctions and

:47:40. > :47:45.supplements, he referred, he didn't answer it. More importantly, there

:47:46. > :47:50.is 2 million people suffering in Palestine. What is a government

:47:51. > :47:54.going to do about elevating that suffering in relation to sanctions?

:47:55. > :47:58.My honourable friend makes an important point, I noted the

:47:59. > :48:01.Minister is making a note of it and hopefully he'll deal with it. The

:48:02. > :48:08.questions are being asked are important. Let us try to seek some

:48:09. > :48:11.clarity from the Minister of state today on whether government stands,

:48:12. > :48:16.and what they're going to do promote peace, what they will do to promote

:48:17. > :48:20.peace in any of these specific areas that we have set out in our

:48:21. > :48:24.manifesto. On the issue of security, he said there could be no military

:48:25. > :48:28.solution to this complex and all sides must avoid taking action that

:48:29. > :48:32.would make peace harder to achieve. That is what we wrote in May, and

:48:33. > :48:36.should be no party would disagree. We all know there could be no

:48:37. > :48:40.progress towards peace between Israel and Palestine and Palestine

:48:41. > :48:45.unless both sides are sure of their security. The reality is, at present

:48:46. > :48:49.the opposite is true, peace and security are becoming harder to

:48:50. > :48:53.achieve because of the climate of increasing aggression and extremism.

:48:54. > :48:58.The honourable gentleman has referred to that. Whether it is the

:48:59. > :49:00.horrific phenomenon of Palestinians attacking random Israeli civilians

:49:01. > :49:10.and security staff at knives, or running were -- ramming them with