24/10/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.the run-up to all fiscal events but I've certainly heard my honourable

:00:00. > :00:12.friend 's comments and will take them as a representation. Order.

:00:13. > :00:19.Urgent question. John Woodcock. Thank you. To ask the Foreign

:00:20. > :00:20.Secretary if he'll make a statement on the liberation of Raqqa and the

:00:21. > :00:36.future of the campaign. Can I thank the honourable gentleman

:00:37. > :00:40.for his continued engagement on this important issue. Raqqa was

:00:41. > :00:46.officially liberated on the 20th of October. The Assyrian Democratic

:00:47. > :00:50.forces supported by the global coalition against Daesh began

:00:51. > :00:55.operations to liberate Raqqa in June 20 17. Military operations are

:00:56. > :00:57.ongoing. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence

:00:58. > :01:05.has highlighted the UK's continue leading role, and we paid tribute in

:01:06. > :01:10.this House to their courage, commitment and effectiveness of

:01:11. > :01:12.British forces overseas. The UK is the second-largest military

:01:13. > :01:18.contributor to the global coalition and plays a role in the humanitarian

:01:19. > :01:23.response. The liberation of Raqqa follows significant Daesh

:01:24. > :01:28.territorial losses in Iraq including Mosul. Daesh has lost over 90% of

:01:29. > :01:31.the territory it once occupied in Iraq and Syria. The Foreign

:01:32. > :01:36.Secretary will provide a full update to the House in due course on the

:01:37. > :01:39.counter Daesh campaign including the operation to liberate Raqqa and I

:01:40. > :01:45.look forward to providing further information in due course. Can I

:01:46. > :01:51.thank the Minister for that response. He will recall that in

:01:52. > :01:54.November 2015 the then Prime Minister David Cameron made the case

:01:55. > :02:02.for the liberation of Raqqa which has now been achieved, as central to

:02:03. > :02:06.asking this House to endorse the air strike campaign from the RAF, which

:02:07. > :02:12.has been taking place in Syria since that point. I would speak for the

:02:13. > :02:15.whole house in adding to the Minister's tributes to the

:02:16. > :02:20.professionalism of the Royal Air Force, how they have carried out.

:02:21. > :02:28.There are significant questions over the conduct of some of the actions

:02:29. > :02:34.by some of the forces in this campaign. The RAF has been

:02:35. > :02:39.exemplary. In the short time I have, there are many questions that flow

:02:40. > :02:47.from this. Three broad areas. First of all, what is the future in the

:02:48. > :02:53.region? If the Minister can address how the UK will engage in attempting

:02:54. > :03:00.to bring an end to the civil War which has already claimed around

:03:01. > :03:07.500,000 lives, the vast majority actually at the hands of the Syrian

:03:08. > :03:15.regime under President Assad, secondly, what will be the UK role

:03:16. > :03:23.in reconstruction of the region? Thirdly, what will be the next steps

:03:24. > :03:29.in the global campaign to defeat not only Daesh, which is clearly

:03:30. > :03:35.disintegrating, but the evil ideology which has perverted so many

:03:36. > :03:42.people in the region and has enticed to many Brits to come and join? If

:03:43. > :03:51.in his response he can answer not only that but what the future will

:03:52. > :04:00.be for the Brits who have been over to the region and now may be seeking

:04:01. > :04:03.to return, and in conclusion, if I may say Mr Speaker. The Minister has

:04:04. > :04:08.always been assiduous on this matter. I say to the government that

:04:09. > :04:17.their failure to offer a statement to this House following the

:04:18. > :04:22.liberation not only does it suggest a lack of respect for Parliament and

:04:23. > :04:28.the British people, on whom we were asked to make the decision to send

:04:29. > :04:34.the Royal Air Force into a theatre of combat, but also there is a worry

:04:35. > :04:40.that it suggests a complacency and lack of grip which has too often

:04:41. > :04:44.been the hallmark of the aftermath for governments both colours, in

:04:45. > :04:52.attempting to maintain stability in the region following conflict. I'm

:04:53. > :04:55.not going to make any evaluative comments about the motivation or

:04:56. > :04:58.conduct of the government, suffice to say that the benefit of those who

:04:59. > :05:04.aren't members of the House but attending to our proceedings, that

:05:05. > :05:09.one of the principal motivations for the Speaker in selecting an urgent

:05:10. > :05:16.question is the judgment that the matter needs to be treated of in the

:05:17. > :05:21.House. Implicitly perhaps, that a government offer of a statement

:05:22. > :05:25.might reasonably have been expected. Minister of State Alistair Burt.

:05:26. > :05:31.Thank you, Mr Speaker and thank you to the honourable gentleman. To deal

:05:32. > :05:36.with his last point first. There has been a range of statements made

:05:37. > :05:45.regular periods in relation to both Iraq and Syria counter Daesh. I

:05:46. > :05:49.intend to present a full statement which covers the range of activities

:05:50. > :05:56.recently. I'd take his point about the liberation of Raqqa, a statement

:05:57. > :05:59.is expected and will come in due course and cover other things. He

:06:00. > :06:01.was right to raise the urgent question and I'm very happy to

:06:02. > :06:13.respond. Yes, reminding the house that David

:06:14. > :06:19.Cameron asked the house to support activity, because of the impending

:06:20. > :06:23.crisis to civilians in the area where Daesh was active, and the

:06:24. > :06:28.horrendous stories of abuse that were emerging. It is indeed to the

:06:29. > :06:31.credit of the house that it recognised and supported that

:06:32. > :06:35.action, and we have seen it carried through extraordinarily by those

:06:36. > :06:41.forces that the house asked to take part. As far as the UK military

:06:42. > :06:50.contributions are concerned, to date, the RAF has conducted 1609

:06:51. > :06:57.strikes in Iraq, and Syria. 1348 in Iraq, 261 in Syria, using six

:06:58. > :07:02.Typhoons, we have 1350 military personnel committed in the region,

:07:03. > :07:07.UK troops have helped to train over to 57,000 Iraqi security forces so

:07:08. > :07:10.far, which says a lot for the stabilisation in future so we pay

:07:11. > :07:14.tribute to the forces and what they have done and the quality and

:07:15. > :07:18.accuracy of air strikes with which they have been involved. The

:07:19. > :07:23.honourable gentleman asked three specific questions, what happens

:07:24. > :07:27.next in terms of activity stabilisation issues and ideology?

:07:28. > :07:32.What happens next? Partner forces are closing in on Daesh's presences

:07:33. > :07:41.in the river valley with the border with Iraq. Iraqi security forces are

:07:42. > :07:43.closing in on Daesh and ensuring the ultimate military defeat. Nobody

:07:44. > :07:52.should underestimate the importance of Raqqa to Daesh ideology, the fall

:07:53. > :07:57.of Mosul and Raqqa is a tremendous blow to those who would have harmed

:07:58. > :08:01.us and the taking of those cities are of immense importance. In terms

:08:02. > :08:07.of stabilisation, in immediate terms we stepped up humanitarian support,

:08:08. > :08:11.the Secretary of State announced an extra ?10 million this weekend to

:08:12. > :08:16.restore health facilities, deliver medical support and relief, and

:08:17. > :08:20.crucially clearly for landmines and explosives because in leading the

:08:21. > :08:23.city, Daesh left a reminder of their killing machine behind them and we

:08:24. > :08:28.are providing immediate support in relation to that but will, of

:08:29. > :08:32.course, moved to have further stabilisation in due course as the

:08:33. > :08:37.area becomes more stable. Lastly, she made the point in relation to

:08:38. > :08:42.ideology. He is quite right to suggest that military action on the

:08:43. > :08:46.ground is only one part of the contest with Daesh's ideology. We

:08:47. > :08:52.must be prepared for them to change form, return to terrorist groups,

:08:53. > :08:57.with more adherents to is evil ideology. We will tackle extremists

:08:58. > :09:01.on simultaneous fronts by preventing foreign fighters from returning to

:09:02. > :09:04.their country of origin. We will continue degrading their poisonous

:09:05. > :09:08.narrative, decreasing their ability to generate revenue and denying a

:09:09. > :09:15.safe haven in the virtual world as well. I was able to make the case in

:09:16. > :09:20.the UN recently, also to ensure bringing Daesh to justice. Finally,

:09:21. > :09:24.the honourable gentleman raised the point of returning fighters,

:09:25. > :09:29.fighters returning to the UK can, of course, expect to be questioned

:09:30. > :09:34.about their role and it would be a matter for the director of public...

:09:35. > :09:38.The Crown Prosecution Service said any evidence against them. Fighters

:09:39. > :09:43.who are captured in Iraq or Syria must be treated according to the

:09:44. > :09:49.laws of armed conflict that they can one expect to stand trial if

:09:50. > :09:54.offences are alleged against them. Mr Speaker, we should reject the

:09:55. > :09:57.language coming out of Russia comparing the bombing of Raqqa to

:09:58. > :10:02.the bombing of Dresden. Nonetheless, the result is not dissimilar. Will

:10:03. > :10:07.my right honourable friend try and rectify a wrong which is so often

:10:08. > :10:10.affecting us in the aftermath of these events by calling for a donor

:10:11. > :10:14.conference and showing British leadership so that we can begin to

:10:15. > :10:20.rebuild Raqqa and rebuild what little remains of a shattered life

:10:21. > :10:24.of the inhabitants and those who used to live them? My right

:10:25. > :10:28.honourable friend is correct to point to the immediate mystery of

:10:29. > :10:32.the aftermath of those caught in the conflict, and the recognition the

:10:33. > :10:37.world has, that it has a responsibility to work with those on

:10:38. > :10:40.the ground, to rebuild areas of conflict, because that's the best

:10:41. > :10:47.way of preventing conflict happening again. Firstly, the political

:10:48. > :10:50.reconciliation so there is no sectarian difficulties in Iraq or

:10:51. > :10:58.Syria, as these places return to conventional governance. The Syrian

:10:59. > :11:01.Democratic forces have been at pains to minimise damage to the

:11:02. > :11:07.infrastructure of the city as they have advanced but in an urban battle

:11:08. > :11:11.like this, it's impossible to advanced against an enemy like Daesh

:11:12. > :11:14.without causing damage at all. It must be remembered that their

:11:15. > :11:18.tactics do not adhere to the conventions of warfare. They

:11:19. > :11:22.booby-trapped buildings, taking other desperate measures to protect

:11:23. > :11:27.their vile interests including the use of schools and hospitals of

:11:28. > :11:34.their tactical -- is their tactical HQs. There will be a stabilisation

:11:35. > :11:38.programme put forward, and it will come after there has been some

:11:39. > :11:45.political decisions to ensure that reconstruction follows commitments

:11:46. > :11:48.of those involved in the governance of Syria. I don't know about a donor

:11:49. > :11:56.conference but I will take that story back to the Foreign Secretary.

:11:57. > :12:00.Thank you for granting this urgent question, and let me thank the

:12:01. > :12:03.Minister for his opening remarks, I wholeheartedly agree with his

:12:04. > :12:08.sentiments and for once we are in union. The victory against Daesh in

:12:09. > :12:13.Raqqa is a vital blow against an evil death cult and it makes a

:12:14. > :12:17.mockery of their intentions to produce a caliphate. It shows them

:12:18. > :12:21.for the weaklings and cowardice that they are. It's a reminder of the

:12:22. > :12:27.battle that we and our allies were fighting on this very day 75 years

:12:28. > :12:32.ago, the battle that destroyed the Nazis ambitions to control Egypt. We

:12:33. > :12:36.recalled Churchill's words after that hard-fought victory and perhaps

:12:37. > :12:39.we can turn them around? This is not the end of the beginning of Daesh

:12:40. > :12:43.but the beginning of their end and we should be grateful for that. I

:12:44. > :12:47.have some questions for the Minister and I hope he can address them in

:12:48. > :12:50.his response, if he is unable to do so and we rely on the Foreign

:12:51. > :12:55.Secretary to do so, we must make sure that he can answer these

:12:56. > :12:59.questions. The first was the government's response to the

:13:00. > :13:02.humanitarian crisis, the question has already been asked but the

:13:03. > :13:10.second question is now that Daesh is in disarray in Syria, can he tell

:13:11. > :13:14.the house, what is Britain's ongoing military mission in Syria? In short,

:13:15. > :13:19.what is our strategy for the future of Syria and what is the role for

:13:20. > :13:22.the military in that strategy? Particularly, what steps will be

:13:23. > :13:30.government take to rebuild a form of sustainable governance in Raqqa and

:13:31. > :13:35.what role will the groups who helped in that play in the future

:13:36. > :13:38.administration, if any, and with Arab opposition forces who have

:13:39. > :13:43.played a pivotal role in the campaign, will they be represented

:13:44. > :13:49.as part of a genuinely viable peace process for Serie A as a whole? If

:13:50. > :13:56.there is one thing that we can agree on, is the last thing that the

:13:57. > :14:00.Middle East needs right now, another vacuum -- the peace process for

:14:01. > :14:04.Syria. ?200 million has been channelled since 2015 to support the

:14:05. > :14:09.so-called moderate opposition in Syria. Can the house be guaranteed

:14:10. > :14:12.today that none of the money has ended up in the hands of Al-Nusra or

:14:13. > :14:18.other jihadist groups because it would be a tragedy if, while rightly

:14:19. > :14:21.celebrating the destruction of Daesh in Raqqa, we have British taxpayer

:14:22. > :14:30.money being funnelled into organisations that are just as bad.

:14:31. > :14:35.Firstly, can I warmly welcome the remarks of the right honourable lady

:14:36. > :14:37.on the front bench. Highly appropriate and much appreciated.

:14:38. > :14:42.This is something the whole house has been engaged in collectively and

:14:43. > :14:46.she speaks as she does and it is appreciated by all. The houses

:14:47. > :14:51.demonstrating that as far as Daesh is concerned in its ideology there's

:14:52. > :14:56.nothing between us and it will be a united front against them. I'm

:14:57. > :15:01.pleased she mentioned Al Alamein, partly because I was there on

:15:02. > :15:07.Saturday. The much travelled Minister managed to get the

:15:08. > :15:09.opportunity to represent Her Majesty's government laying the

:15:10. > :15:18.wreath on the half of the United came -- United Kingdom to

:15:19. > :15:23.commemorate this at 75th anniversary of that battle that turned the tide

:15:24. > :15:26.of the war and the tide in Africa. I was proud to stand with members of

:15:27. > :15:32.the Commonwealth who fought with the Desert rats and those from the UK,

:15:33. > :15:35.and those who represented the German and Italian governments, to

:15:36. > :15:43.recognise that 75 years after Europe has achieved much by coming together

:15:44. > :15:46.and demonstrating the tolerance and ability of forgiveness which, I'm

:15:47. > :15:51.afraid, is rather lacking sometimes in other parts of the Middle East

:15:52. > :15:56.where memories are long and dates are often remembered for the wrong

:15:57. > :15:59.reasons but I am proud to represent the United Kingdom, along with

:16:00. > :16:07.representatives of the military and our ambassador, and also served Tim

:16:08. > :16:14.Laurence, representing Commonwealth graves Commission, of whom he is the

:16:15. > :16:18.vice-chairman, I apologise, Admiral Tim Laurence. In response to the

:16:19. > :16:23.questions, humanitarian relief recognised ongoing as detailed and

:16:24. > :16:28.more information if she wishes. As far as the military is concerned,

:16:29. > :16:33.recognising firstly that we do not quite know what will come next. The

:16:34. > :16:38.military will remain engaged as long as there is a need for them to be

:16:39. > :16:43.there, as I indicated the strategy to further close off the avenues for

:16:44. > :16:49.Daesh in the Euphrates Valley will be supported by UK personnel, until

:16:50. > :16:51.there is the possibility that military action can recommence and

:16:52. > :16:57.coalition forces can be put under pressure. The coalition forces and

:16:58. > :17:01.their activity clearly, it is essential that the coalition which

:17:02. > :17:05.came together, which the honourable lady rightly says comprises a large

:17:06. > :17:11.number of those from the Kurdish region, in Syria and Iraq, and those

:17:12. > :17:15.from other areas, there are ongoing discussions as to how the coalition

:17:16. > :17:19.will stay together. But I do think it is premature to say anything

:17:20. > :17:24.about disbanding, they should be kept in place until there is no

:17:25. > :17:26.further military threat and it will be advised by my right honourable

:17:27. > :17:31.friend committee secretary for defence or Foreign Secretary in due

:17:32. > :17:36.course. In terms of support going in the wrong direction, I remember

:17:37. > :17:41.since 2011 it has been a continued concern that trying to provide

:17:42. > :17:45.support for legitimate opposition forces recognising that in those

:17:46. > :17:52.very difficult circumstances arms get traded, money gets traded, and

:17:53. > :18:00.there has been a determination to ensure that supplies that went to

:18:01. > :18:04.forces, to support them, did not go in the wrong direction. As far as is

:18:05. > :18:09.possible, that is still the case and that is carried out. I cannot say

:18:10. > :18:12.with absolute certainty, not a single pound or element of aid has

:18:13. > :18:16.gone in the wrong direction. There are difficulties on the ground where

:18:17. > :18:19.forces must cooperate with one another to overcome Daesh but it is

:18:20. > :18:23.the absolute determination of the government to ensure that as far as

:18:24. > :18:31.possible the risk is minimised and I can assure the honourable lady that

:18:32. > :18:34.is the case. It's an extraordinarily busy and conscientious bee, and I

:18:35. > :18:39.speak for the whole house in saying how delighted we are that he

:18:40. > :18:41.represents us on these important occasions in all sorts of different

:18:42. > :18:49.parts of the globe. Doctor Gillian Lewis. -- Doctor Julian Lewis. Does

:18:50. > :18:52.the Minister except that the reason bombing Daesh was so much more

:18:53. > :18:57.controversial in Syria than it was in Iraq is the same as the reason

:18:58. > :19:03.why there were so many more aria air strikes in Iraq then there have been

:19:04. > :19:07.in Syria, namely that we wanted the ground forces of the government to

:19:08. > :19:12.win in Iraq, but we claim not to want the ground forces of the

:19:13. > :19:17.government to win in Syria. Does he accept that the outcome of the

:19:18. > :19:24.welcome squeezing out of Daesh in Syria is that this is down to a

:19:25. > :19:27.combination of the Kurdish led Syrian democratic forces, and the

:19:28. > :19:32.Syrian government forces, whether we like it or not, and the so-called

:19:33. > :19:37.70,000 moderates are now well and truly dominated by Islamist 's and

:19:38. > :19:44.we ought to be careful who we support, as the opposition spokesman

:19:45. > :19:50.said? I'm not going to go over previous discussions in relation to

:19:51. > :19:54.this, Mr Speaker. I understand the point my right honourable friend

:19:55. > :19:58.asks, but the coalition forces in relation to Syria that have been

:19:59. > :20:04.back in relation to Iraq to contain a variety of forces, but not Syrian

:20:05. > :20:08.regime forces. We still hold, and our right to, hold a Syrian regime

:20:09. > :20:12.responsible for a large proportion of the atrocities in Syria which

:20:13. > :20:15.should not be forgotten or glossed over. President al-Assad is

:20:16. > :20:20.responsible for launching murderous attacks on his own people and is

:20:21. > :20:21.right to separate insofar as possible coalition forces fighting

:20:22. > :20:33.Daesh from those in their regime. We welcome the news that Daesh have

:20:34. > :20:40.been defeated in Raqqa after the three-year rule over the city. We

:20:41. > :20:44.also welcome the pledge of the humanitarian aid. Does the Minister

:20:45. > :20:50.agree that in order to sustain a military achievement in Raqqa,

:20:51. > :21:04.rebuilding efforts need to start immediately? What funds have have

:21:05. > :21:12.been allocated for Raqqa and the wider region? Jihadists needles had

:21:13. > :21:18.to be captured where possible and tried for heinous war crimes, some

:21:19. > :21:26.of which can only be tried in The Hague, for the whole world to

:21:27. > :21:30.witness, rather than, and I quote, the only way of dealing with them

:21:31. > :21:37.would be to kill them. This would of course only fuel IS recruitment. I

:21:38. > :21:43.thank the honourable gentleman for his support. Those two elements of

:21:44. > :21:50.the stabilisation of reconstruction after conflict. That my right

:21:51. > :22:00.honourable friend addressed the other day. That is to provide the

:22:01. > :22:03.immediate assistance needed. That helps to clearly for landmines,

:22:04. > :22:08.restock hospitals and mobile surgical units, provide 145,000

:22:09. > :22:17.medical consultations, immediate relief for innocent people that have

:22:18. > :22:23.been displaced and improved access to clean water and care for pregnant

:22:24. > :22:28.women. Longer term, resources have not yet been allocated. But will be

:22:29. > :22:34.done in conjunction with UN and other donors who will be providing

:22:35. > :22:38.support. The honourable gentleman put his finger on the necessity for

:22:39. > :22:44.inclusive governance in a difficult area, and that will be a matter for

:22:45. > :22:46.the Syrian people and will also be a matter for the political

:22:47. > :22:51.negotiations which we expect to start in Geneva in November to look

:22:52. > :22:56.at the overall governance where we will have to take into account the

:22:57. > :23:06.political situation in the area, which will be difficult. In terms of

:23:07. > :23:09.those returning to the UK and the situation there, just to make it

:23:10. > :23:14.clear as the Defence Secretary said on the 12th of October, those who go

:23:15. > :23:19.to Syria put themselves in danger. Those who go to Syria to take action

:23:20. > :23:24.against the UK and the interests put themselves in particular danger, and

:23:25. > :23:27.if they are involved in conflict or planning actions which will take the

:23:28. > :23:33.lives of British citizens, they run the risk of being killed themselves.

:23:34. > :23:36.Those who surrender to forces, those in the area, must expect to be

:23:37. > :23:40.treated by the laws of armed conflict and to be treated properly

:23:41. > :23:46.and humanely in terms of being brought to justice. Those who return

:23:47. > :23:50.to the UK will also be questioned about their activity and brought to

:23:51. > :23:55.justice. It's important that justice is seen as the ultimate outcome for

:23:56. > :23:59.those who have committed wrong, but those who are a present danger to

:24:00. > :24:08.the UK run a greater risk and it is right that they do so. May I thank

:24:09. > :24:15.my right honourable friend for his detailed and full answers. May I

:24:16. > :24:19.pressed him on a couple of areas that he hasn't yet addressed. Does

:24:20. > :24:25.he not agree that the finality of the conflict in Raqqa gives daylight

:24:26. > :24:30.Russia's claimed that it was supporting the fight against Daesh.

:24:31. > :24:33.Does this... May I therefore call upon him and his colleagues to

:24:34. > :24:38.represent the Russian government that the actions they are taking in

:24:39. > :24:43.Syria are against the interests of humanitarianism and against the

:24:44. > :24:47.interests of civilians? Could he perhaps represent them but what they

:24:48. > :24:54.are actually doing is making a new problem for themselves in the

:24:55. > :24:59.future. I thank my honourable friend and the chairman of the Foreign

:25:00. > :25:07.Affairs Committee. Russia's engagement in this has clearly been

:25:08. > :25:10.to stabilise the Assad regime and their primary objective has been to

:25:11. > :25:16.secure their interests in Syria, and through Assad secure their interests

:25:17. > :25:19.that way, rather than recognise he had turned against his own people

:25:20. > :25:25.and join in a coalition of interest to secure a peaceful transition and

:25:26. > :25:31.reform as part of the end of the conflict. It's clear there are

:25:32. > :25:35.operations against Daesh which haven't been taken part in by regime

:25:36. > :25:40.forces or those who have supported them like the Russians, and other

:25:41. > :25:45.actions being taken. I'm not sure if it's true to say that in all cases

:25:46. > :25:48.Russia hasn't taken action against Daesh forces, they will have done so

:25:49. > :25:58.when those forces were threatening the regime. That is when they will

:25:59. > :26:05.have taken that action. However, the Geneva talks that will start will

:26:06. > :26:09.inevitably involve Russia as a participant in trying to see what we

:26:10. > :26:13.can do now towards the end of the conflict to provide stabilisation. I

:26:14. > :26:17.can make it clear the UK will echo remarks made by the chairman of the

:26:18. > :26:21.foreign affairs select committee. We recognise Russia's responsibility in

:26:22. > :26:27.the conflict but now they have a responsibility to remedy some of the

:26:28. > :26:31.problems they have caused. Some members of this has received and

:26:32. > :26:35.continue to receive considerable abuse for the decision we tech in

:26:36. > :26:41.November 2015 to support the extension of the RAF mission to

:26:42. > :26:44.Syria. Does the liberation of Raqqa and this considerable setback to

:26:45. > :26:55.Daesh not show we were absolutely right? Yes, in a word. We've been

:26:56. > :26:59.learning over time Mr Speaker the consequences of not taking action.

:27:00. > :27:04.We've all learned there are consequences of action and

:27:05. > :27:08.consequences of in action, and sometimes the choices are

:27:09. > :27:11.impossible. It's perfectly clear, decisions not to do anything will

:27:12. > :27:14.almost inevitably result in the situation becoming gradually worse

:27:15. > :27:18.and more difficult for those involved. The right decisions have

:27:19. > :27:22.got to be taken on intervention or not but the decision of the House to

:27:23. > :27:33.support the determination to take action in Syria was the right one.

:27:34. > :27:36.Is he aware that a young person in my constituency was radicalised at

:27:37. > :27:43.university, went to Raqqa via Turkey. She and dozens of others are

:27:44. > :27:50.authors of their own peril. Does he agree every effort should be made to

:27:51. > :27:56.get them out safely? Mr Speaker, we've no facility to get British

:27:57. > :27:59.citizens out of Syria. Those who have gone to Syria haven't been able

:28:00. > :28:06.to access consular support because we cannot put British officials that

:28:07. > :28:10.risk in trying to deal with that. Those who have gone to Syria have

:28:11. > :28:15.gone at their own risk. Inevitably some people will return. I hope

:28:16. > :28:20.those who have a story to tell about turning against Daesh are able to

:28:21. > :28:23.convince others this is a false ideology and not to be seduced into

:28:24. > :28:32.travelling abroad, may have a role to play in making that story clear.

:28:33. > :28:37.In welcoming the liberation of Raqqa from Daesh, we recognise this is a

:28:38. > :28:41.city that has experienced death and displacement on a huge scale. For

:28:42. > :28:46.the 8000 civilians left, they are in a devastated city without access to

:28:47. > :28:50.drinking water, sewerage, electricity, schools, hospitals and

:28:51. > :28:54.the forces of Assad are a few kilometres away. Where does he think

:28:55. > :28:59.responsibility for the rebuilding of Raqqa lies, and what will the UK

:29:00. > :29:04.Government do to minimise any delays in this, arising from what he

:29:05. > :29:09.referred to as political decisions? I think the truth of it is, in a

:29:10. > :29:13.sense it's not a question of responsibility. Certainly the people

:29:14. > :29:18.of the area haven't caused their own destruction. It makes sense for the

:29:19. > :29:22.world to be supportive of efforts that will ensure a return to

:29:23. > :29:27.normality, that people have decent lives. You can expect the UK to play

:29:28. > :29:31.a leading part in supporting those efforts to rebuild schools,

:29:32. > :29:39.hospitals and the economy. I think it's something the world will in. In

:29:40. > :29:43.terms of the responsibility of the state, clearly the UK holds the

:29:44. > :29:48.regime responsible for a significant part of what has been inflicted upon

:29:49. > :29:52.their people. There has to be a political decision about moving

:29:53. > :29:59.forward with the political process, before reconstruction can begin.

:30:00. > :30:02.Decisions have got to be taken. It doesn't stop the immediate

:30:03. > :30:06.humanitarian assistance in difficult situations to take place, but

:30:07. > :30:12.longer-term reconstruction must follow a political settlement. Could

:30:13. > :30:19.my right honourable friend outline, if he knows how many Daesh

:30:20. > :30:28.terrorists have escaped from Raqqa and where they might be headed? I

:30:29. > :30:35.don't know the answer to that question because it's impossible to

:30:36. > :30:37.gauge. Talk seems to centre around the low thousands of foreign

:30:38. > :30:42.fighters. I think over time it will become more clear. I'm not sure I

:30:43. > :30:47.can say anything more accurate than that. It's clear some will attempt

:30:48. > :30:50.to return to the whole area of the region and beyond from where they

:30:51. > :30:56.came from. Some countries have supplied more fighters than others.

:30:57. > :31:00.They will be a risk until they have all been interviewed, and those who

:31:01. > :31:11.are responsible for crimes have been brought to justice for those crimes,

:31:12. > :31:15.and others dealt with in other ways. My friend from Exeter referred to

:31:16. > :31:23.the vote two years ago, unfortunately I wasn't able to take

:31:24. > :31:27.part in that vote. But I welcome the liberation of Raqqa. But as the

:31:28. > :31:36.Minister said, doesn't it prove that you can't win conflicts of this kind

:31:37. > :31:41.simply from the air? You have to have ground forces. Can he take the

:31:42. > :31:47.opportunity to reiterate our praise for the Syrian Democratic forces,

:31:48. > :31:51.and particularly for the Kurds of Syria who have played a pivotal

:31:52. > :32:00.role, and told the Turkish government stop attacking them?

:32:01. > :32:05.Again, I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman who has always

:32:06. > :32:08.been clear in his determination to take what he considered to be the

:32:09. > :32:14.right action, regardless of political pressure against it. He's

:32:15. > :32:19.been very courageous to do so. There are some battles which clearly

:32:20. > :32:24.cannot be fought without ground troops, as recent conflicts in Iraq

:32:25. > :32:34.and Syria have shown. There would have been known liberation of Mosul

:32:35. > :32:38.from the no liberation of Raqqa. The UK hasn't taken part in those and

:32:39. > :32:43.others have done so without support elsewhere. He was right to mention

:32:44. > :32:47.the leadership of Kurdish forces in relation to the coalition forces,

:32:48. > :32:51.who have been operating in Raqqa and the extraordinary work they have

:32:52. > :32:56.done. Whatever difficult situations may be faced back in the Kurdish

:32:57. > :32:59.region of Iraq, it's clear those fighters and those they represent

:33:00. > :33:02.deserve to be treated with the greatest of respect, and any

:33:03. > :33:06.political situation needs to be handled with great care and a lot of

:33:07. > :33:15.dialogue between states, not undue pressure or force. I welcome the

:33:16. > :33:19.news that Raqqa has been liberated from Daesh, especially Paradise

:33:20. > :33:22.Square where they carried out public beheadings. I want to thank the

:33:23. > :33:28.Minister for all the work he has done in securing a UN resolution to

:33:29. > :33:30.locate and prosecute Daesh. Could the Minister provide us with an

:33:31. > :33:42.update on that but also on the Geneva process? I'm grateful to her

:33:43. > :33:46.kind remarks. I was pleased to have the honour of moving the resolution

:33:47. > :33:51.at the UN recently, which was adopted unanimously by the Security

:33:52. > :33:58.Council to further the work commenced by the Foreign Secretary,

:33:59. > :34:03.the Foreign Minister of Iraq, to bring to justice those who have been

:34:04. > :34:07.responsible for the crimes of Daesh, and to institute an investigative

:34:08. > :34:11.process which will help in that work, and the UK will support that

:34:12. > :34:24.and can see that resolution carried through. I met him in New York and

:34:25. > :34:33.hopeful the Geneva process will will start in November but an absence of

:34:34. > :34:37.conflict will help that process. And a situation where the people of

:34:38. > :34:41.Syria have the chance to choose their leadership and one that isn't

:34:42. > :34:46.imposed upon them. The Minister said some helpful things today, not least

:34:47. > :34:50.about the cost of inaction being as possibly great as the cost of

:34:51. > :34:54.action, a point made forcefully in the paper written by the honourable

:34:55. > :34:59.member of the Tonbridge and mauling and Jo Cox, the cost of doing

:35:00. > :35:03.nothing. In relation for the Minister agree it's vital that those

:35:04. > :35:08.who have committed war crimes in Syria are brought to justice and

:35:09. > :35:12.will he update the House on the British government's role in making

:35:13. > :35:16.sure the Syrian government has prosecuted a campaign that has been

:35:17. > :35:17.brutal and has bombed hospitals is brought to justice in whatever way

:35:18. > :35:27.is possible? I thank the honourable lady for the

:35:28. > :35:31.question, I hope it will please her when I'm meant the leader of the

:35:32. > :35:36.White Helmets -- I met the leader of the White Helmets while I was there,

:35:37. > :35:39.I give enormous credit to what they have achieved and her work and the

:35:40. > :35:43.work of others in supporting them. In relation to bringing people to

:35:44. > :35:47.justice, it's clear that those responsible for war crimes in any

:35:48. > :35:51.circumstances, whether they belong to Daesh or the regime, should know

:35:52. > :35:55.that justice is available against them. The processes against Daesh

:35:56. > :35:59.are clear and the processes against the regime will be more difficult, I

:36:00. > :36:06.suspect but where there is evidence it should be prosecuted and pursued

:36:07. > :36:09.and the UK will be determined to see that carried through. I do not

:36:10. > :36:12.suspect for a moment it will be particularly easy. Mr Speaker, like

:36:13. > :36:16.all colleagues I welcome the military defeat of Daesh in Raqqa,

:36:17. > :36:26.what stance has the international community taken to ensure that that

:36:27. > :36:32.faculty microcode the region is not fuelled. My honourable friend's

:36:33. > :36:39.knowledge of the area is considerable. We remember his long

:36:40. > :36:43.campaign in making sure that we refer to Daesh as Daesh. We pay

:36:44. > :36:50.tribute to that. The militias operating in the region which are

:36:51. > :36:56.not always under control of coalition forces or in Iraq, every

:36:57. > :37:01.attempt, as far as I am aware, has been made to ensure that the forces

:37:02. > :37:06.occupying the grounds are under the control of the coalition, and

:37:07. > :37:11.therefore try and minimise any danger of sectarian activity. We do

:37:12. > :37:15.have two remember some of the militia have been involved in close

:37:16. > :37:19.fighting and helping to relieve the areas. It is essential that those

:37:20. > :37:23.who are responsible for them play a part in building a consensual

:37:24. > :37:27.process of governance, and do not use them for sectarian purposes.

:37:28. > :37:33.It's an opportunity for some to show new colours and take a different

:37:34. > :37:44.direction than they have in the past, building stability rather than

:37:45. > :37:49.disruption. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister referred rightly to the

:37:50. > :37:54.accuracy of the 261 British strikes on Daesh in Syria, by which I

:37:55. > :38:00.presume he also means to say that no, to his knowledge, no civilians

:38:01. > :38:04.were casualties of British strikes. By contrast, the Russians said that

:38:05. > :38:10.their whole aim in Syria was to attack Daesh and put an end to them.

:38:11. > :38:14.95% of their attacks appear to have been on other opponents of Assad,

:38:15. > :38:20.does that mean the Russians are liars or incompetent? Let me deal

:38:21. > :38:25.with the first part of the honourable gentleman's question

:38:26. > :38:30.first. Not .31% of coalition air strikes result in a credible report

:38:31. > :38:34.of civilian casualties, highlighting the care taken to avoid such

:38:35. > :38:38.casualties by the coalition. Whilst we have not seen any evidence that

:38:39. > :38:43.we have caused civilian casualties, it is in the same as saying we have

:38:44. > :38:47.not and will not do so, in closing up and fighting against a ruthless

:38:48. > :38:49.terrorist enemy that uses civilians as human shields. Hopefully the

:38:50. > :38:55.relief of Raqqa will make the likelihood still less than it

:38:56. > :38:59.originally was. In relation to other air strikes that have taken place

:39:00. > :39:04.and the use of other forces, it is a question for others to answer, that

:39:05. > :39:09.the right honourable gentleman is correct. The care taken by the

:39:10. > :39:15.coalition, particularly by the RAF, the rules of engagement in avoiding

:39:16. > :39:19.strikes where it is known for civilians is clear. Others need to

:39:20. > :39:23.be responsible for their actions but actions which have unnecessarily

:39:24. > :39:27.taken civilian lives and air strikes that have done so make the process

:39:28. > :39:30.of reconciliation afterwards so much harder and fuelled the causes of

:39:31. > :39:38.further conflict which the UK has tried desperately hard not to do.

:39:39. > :39:43.The Minister has mentioned Iran, can I ask for his judgment on whether or

:39:44. > :39:51.not he thinks the role played in Syria and Iraq reflects a threat to

:39:52. > :39:54.our interests? I wish we had more time, Mr Speaker. My honourable

:39:55. > :39:57.friend's knowledge of the area is considerable and he brings it with

:39:58. > :40:03.him to the house. I think we have been clear in trying to say that

:40:04. > :40:07.there is evidence of Iran being a disrupter in the region. And its

:40:08. > :40:11.activities in both Iraq and Syria, and in Syria supporting the Assad

:40:12. > :40:15.regime and supporting their own interests in doing so but taking

:40:16. > :40:19.part and being complicit with a leader waging war upon his own

:40:20. > :40:28.people has made the region more unstable. And in Iraq, they must now

:40:29. > :40:32.allow Iraqis to run Iraq. The Iraqi government to run a unified Iraq,

:40:33. > :40:37.and must recognise their influence is confined to the border. And that

:40:38. > :40:41.they have an opportunity to play a part in making the peace in the

:40:42. > :40:44.region, but can only do so if they listen to the concerns of others and

:40:45. > :40:50.recognise their influence can be used for better and in different

:40:51. > :40:55.ways than they have done up to now. Mr Speaker, can I thank the Minister

:40:56. > :40:58.for the work he has done on this difficult issue? Can I ask if he has

:40:59. > :41:03.any idea how many UK nationals have left the UK to fight with Daesh and

:41:04. > :41:06.the work they are doing with the Home Office to identify these

:41:07. > :41:16.individuals and where possible repatriate? The short answer is I do

:41:17. > :41:22.not know. I do not have a figure. We have always come as far as I

:41:23. > :41:25.remember, we have worked on the numbers of relatively low hundreds,

:41:26. > :41:30.but we do not know. I'm not going to put a figure on it. That would be

:41:31. > :41:35.plucking a figure out the air but the numbers are not huge or as great

:41:36. > :41:39.as some from other places. In terms of dealing with people when they

:41:40. > :41:44.return, let me make clear that those who make their way... There is no

:41:45. > :41:51.facility to return people, as I say. Certainly not from Syria. There are

:41:52. > :41:54.no personal there and we have no responsibilities to do so in any

:41:55. > :41:58.way. If people make their way back to the UK and are identified as

:41:59. > :42:02.those taking part in complex in Syria and Iraq, they will be

:42:03. > :42:06.detained and they will have to answer questions, while it is found

:42:07. > :42:09.out exactly what they have done. It is the right and proper way of doing

:42:10. > :42:16.so and those who commit offences can expect to face justice. My

:42:17. > :42:18.constituents in Kettering I increasingly alarmed about the

:42:19. > :42:25.number of British jihadists who have been fighting our Armed Forces

:42:26. > :42:29.personnel in Iraq and Syria. My understanding is that they have

:42:30. > :42:34.identified about 850 of them, of whom about 400 are back in the UK.

:42:35. > :42:40.Please correct me if I am wrong, I do not believe there has been a

:42:41. > :42:43.single prosecution for any offence. Can I make the Minister understand

:42:44. > :42:47.that if no effective action is taken against these people in this

:42:48. > :42:51.country, it is a positive signal for future potential jihadists to say we

:42:52. > :43:02.can go and fight British services overseas because nothing will happen

:43:03. > :43:04.to us when we return? Many terror offences have territorial

:43:05. > :43:08.jurisdictions which means that people can be prosecuted in British

:43:09. > :43:13.courts for terror activities in Syria or anywhere else in the world.

:43:14. > :43:17.Any decision will be taken by the Crown Prosecution Service on a

:43:18. > :43:22.case-by-case basis. It requires evidence of what people have done.

:43:23. > :43:26.It doesn't require rounding people who have been in a particular place,

:43:27. > :43:31.detaining them without legal process for doing so. It is essential that

:43:32. > :43:36.it is found out what are doing and that will require the kinds of

:43:37. > :43:40.investigative work that I announced to the house earlier, we have

:43:41. > :43:43.promoted through the UN investigations unit which is

:43:44. > :43:49.entirely designed to uncover evidence which brings people to

:43:50. > :43:53.justice. It's a question of holding this number of people in reasonable

:43:54. > :43:57.bounds so people know that there are people who have gone there and to

:43:58. > :44:01.recognise that it is a number that is not as great as those from other

:44:02. > :44:06.countries. There a determination in the UK make certain those who put

:44:07. > :44:12.the country at risk, if they are returning, can expect to be

:44:13. > :44:15.questioned, brought to the notice of the security authorities, and

:44:16. > :44:21.subject to controls thereafter, according to our existing law. They

:44:22. > :44:26.will be prosecuted and rightly so if they break the law. Thank you, Mr

:44:27. > :44:34.Speaker. I'm sure that the whole house would agree with me when we

:44:35. > :44:38.offer our thanks and congratulations to those and their families who have

:44:39. > :44:43.participated in operation shader, what efforts are being made, given

:44:44. > :44:50.what we learned in Falluja about the industrial use of IUDs in domestic

:44:51. > :44:56.properties and in the ground we are supporting those who cleared the

:44:57. > :45:02.IUDs? I thank durable lady and she is right to thank those and their

:45:03. > :45:06.families for the sacrifices in Bob -- I thank the honourable lady. They

:45:07. > :45:15.deliberately targeted some of the money given to deal with IUDs and

:45:16. > :45:21.explosives in Iraq and Mosul. The UK is contributing to the landmine

:45:22. > :45:26.tearing effort and will continue to do so. Further to earlier, right

:45:27. > :45:31.honourable member is mentioning returning fighters to the UK, there

:45:32. > :45:39.are a number in my constituency who have actively supported Daesh in

:45:40. > :45:44.Syria and are now back home. I appreciate comments with regard to a

:45:45. > :45:48.cross government response to those individuals and prosecutions where

:45:49. > :45:53.it is appropriate but, in addition to that, can I be assured that to

:45:54. > :45:56.keep the wider community safe, in my constituency and across the country,

:45:57. > :46:01.that security services will be monitoring the activities of those

:46:02. > :46:05.who have returned, even if they cannot be prosecuted because there

:46:06. > :46:12.is insufficient evidence to ensure they are not radicalising their

:46:13. > :46:16.communities on return to the UK? Absolutely right, more than 60

:46:17. > :46:22.countries provide data to Interpol to build a global database of

:46:23. > :46:30.foreign fighters who work with Daesh, which has grown from 40

:46:31. > :46:34.people in 2013 to 13,000, which continues to grow. This information

:46:35. > :46:43.helps us ensure that people in the UK are safer. The Speaker paid

:46:44. > :46:53.tribute to the Kurdish Peshmerga forces in their fights in Syria.

:46:54. > :47:02.When the Iraqi military and militia captured Kurdish held territory,

:47:03. > :47:08.about splintering and he Daesh forces in future? Mr Speaker, the

:47:09. > :47:13.Foreign Office and myself are in pretty close contact with the Iraqi

:47:14. > :47:16.government and the Kurdish regional government in Iraq. Our

:47:17. > :47:21.understanding is the process of recovering so-called disputed

:47:22. > :47:25.territory has not been done through conflict but by agreement between

:47:26. > :47:33.the government of Iraq and Peshmerga forces and Kurdish authorities. We

:47:34. > :47:38.have been at pains to do all we can to say to both regional governments

:47:39. > :47:44.and the Iraqi authorities to do nothing to risk a conflict, there

:47:45. > :47:49.are Shia militias in the area but I understand responsible parties are

:47:50. > :47:51.doing all they can to avoid conflict so a return to the dialogue must

:47:52. > :48:01.take place between Kurdish representatives and the Iraqi

:48:02. > :48:05.government in September. There is a significant presence of Al-Qaeda in

:48:06. > :48:08.the Arabian Peninsula and Daesh in Yemen. What assessment has the

:48:09. > :48:12.government made of the extremist threat in Yemen and what support

:48:13. > :48:17.I'll be giving to the ground troops are Saudi Arabia, the UAE and

:48:18. > :48:23.government forces who have tried to defeat the extremists in that

:48:24. > :48:26.country? -- are we getting? A slightly wider question that in

:48:27. > :48:34.regards to Daesh it is pertinent. We do not take part in the coalition

:48:35. > :48:41.operating in Yemen, directly of course, the UK representatives are

:48:42. > :48:45.available to ensure that international humanitarian law is

:48:46. > :48:52.adhered to by those taking action using munitions supplied by the UK.

:48:53. > :48:56.The work is ongoing but is not a direct part of the coalition. We

:48:57. > :49:00.supported the coalition aims in pushing back and insurgency against

:49:01. > :49:06.an elected government which we believe are open to the risk of more

:49:07. > :49:14.ungoverned space in Yemen, wish UQ AP can operate with Daesh, we are

:49:15. > :49:16.working extremely hard on efforts for negotiations starting again so

:49:17. > :49:20.the conflict can come to an end as that is all that will secure the

:49:21. > :49:24.area and deal with the risk of Al-Qaeda in the peninsular, the

:49:25. > :49:38.honourable gentleman is quite correct. Mr Speaker, one of the most

:49:39. > :49:44.horrifying elements of the war is the use of food. 90% of the United

:49:45. > :49:48.Nations aid trying to get through checkpoints are turned back. Can he

:49:49. > :49:54.tell us what the government is doing about that case and more broadly how

:49:55. > :49:59.they are trying to fight President Assad's wage of starvation?

:50:00. > :50:06.He's right, the area has returned to medieval conditions of war and siege

:50:07. > :50:10.in which humanitarian aid, which ought to get through, is not allowed

:50:11. > :50:15.to get through because of forces on the ground. We make strenuous

:50:16. > :50:18.efforts through the UN and humanitarian agencies who do

:50:19. > :50:22.extraordinary work and we should pay tribute to those working on the

:50:23. > :50:26.ground in dangerous conditions to provide relief to try and get things

:50:27. > :50:37.through. But it is difficult and will continue to make that case. In

:50:38. > :50:42.relation to Raqqa, a lot of aid has been provided by the UK and 88,000

:50:43. > :50:46.monthly food rations. When we can get things through we do and it's no

:50:47. > :50:55.doubt the refusal of aid is used as a weapon of war and should not be.

:50:56. > :51:00.It's in the interests of Assad and Putin to suggest life is returning

:51:01. > :51:05.to normal in Syria. In the light of the meeting in Geneva in November

:51:06. > :51:08.that the Minister has spoken about, can he say what more the UK

:51:09. > :51:16.Government will be doing to ensure that Russians and other actors are

:51:17. > :51:20.aware that they can be no lasting peace in Syria while Assad continues

:51:21. > :51:29.to rule there and while there is not a role for peace-loving Sunnis and

:51:30. > :51:39.all of the communities in Syria. In conversations with the P5, the House

:51:40. > :51:43.can be absolutely clear that the points the honourable gentleman has

:51:44. > :51:49.made were made to them. Russia is protecting its own interest in Syria

:51:50. > :51:52.in what we consider to be an unconscionable manner. There can

:51:53. > :51:55.only be a political resolution which gives the people of Syria the free

:51:56. > :52:06.choice to choose their government. This isn't an easy process, and we

:52:07. > :52:12.are giving all backing to Staffan de Mistura. It is essential the people

:52:13. > :52:16.of Syria have the choice of their own president to govern in the

:52:17. > :52:20.future. In some parts things are returning to normal but in areas of

:52:21. > :52:26.serious conflict the situation is still miserable for civilians

:52:27. > :52:34.attacked by their own government. I would like to congratulate him for

:52:35. > :52:39.securing this urgent question. The decision to take military action in

:52:40. > :52:43.Syria was obviously very controversial, but the decision in

:52:44. > :52:49.my view was the right one. I want to pay tribute to the RAF and the

:52:50. > :52:53.military servicemen and women in the region today and their

:52:54. > :53:03.professionalism. I want to ask a question to do with UK foreign

:53:04. > :53:08.fighters who may have left Syria and ended up in refugee camps in Turkey.

:53:09. > :53:17.What are we doing to track those people down and return them to

:53:18. > :53:22.justice? As I mentioned earlier, the acquisition of names onto the

:53:23. > :53:26.Interpol database is extending the reach of national authorities in the

:53:27. > :53:30.more than 60 countries where foreign fighters have gone to fight in Iraq.

:53:31. > :53:36.But will provide the base for when those return. I'm not aware at the

:53:37. > :53:45.moment of any efforts being taken to go to camps in order to identify

:53:46. > :53:48.people before they return. I will find the answer and make sure it's

:53:49. > :53:57.made available through the next statement of the Foreign Secretary.

:53:58. > :54:01.Happily, the campaign against Daesh in Syria is coming to an end and

:54:02. > :54:08.bringing hope to millions who suffered abuse from these evil

:54:09. > :54:13.madmen. Is he concerned in light of events in Kirkuk last week that a

:54:14. > :54:16.and Iran are turning their attention militarily towards the Kurds, and

:54:17. > :54:20.does he see this as a potential source of conflict in the future,

:54:21. > :54:28.and what role does he believe he can play and the government can play?

:54:29. > :54:33.The first role I hope I can play is to try and urge the House to be

:54:34. > :54:38.cautious of reports coming out from the region. It's not always entirely

:54:39. > :54:41.clear what is happening on the ground and there are vested

:54:42. > :54:48.interests trying to stir up more conflict than need be. At present

:54:49. > :54:53.there is sufficient relationship between Baghdad and representatives

:54:54. > :54:56.of the Kurdish government to enable dialogue to take place so that

:54:57. > :55:02.conflict is avoided. I don't believe it is true that Iraq and Iran have

:55:03. > :55:06.turned their attention to conflict in the Kurdish region. There is a

:55:07. > :55:14.risk of conflict but everything we know about Prime Minister Abadi has

:55:15. > :55:18.indicated he doesn't want to see conflict and that is being mirrored

:55:19. > :55:25.by those in the Kurdish region. We are using all our efforts to make

:55:26. > :55:29.sure that remains the case but we should be doing all we can both in

:55:30. > :55:31.this House and at government level to try and urge the dialogue

:55:32. > :55:41.necessary which we think is taking place. Point of order, Mr Ian

:55:42. > :55:46.Stewart. Thank you Mr Speaker. You'll be aware of the growing level

:55:47. > :55:53.of abuse and intimidation in many parts of our political system. Such

:55:54. > :56:04.toxicity and danger is something which you have commendably

:56:05. > :56:08.championed against yourself. May I ask if you have received any

:56:09. > :56:11.indication from the women and equalities Minister if she wishes to

:56:12. > :56:18.make a statement to the House to clarify the legal obligations or

:56:19. > :56:24.political parties under the equalities act, and could you advise

:56:25. > :56:30.me on how such matters might be urgently considered by this House.

:56:31. > :56:38.I'm grateful to the gentleman for his point of order. I've received no

:56:39. > :56:47.such indication as yet from the Minister for Women and Equalities,

:56:48. > :56:50.who as it happened I saw last night at an event in which she spoke

:56:51. > :56:56.eloquently and with conviction on the subject of the importance of

:56:57. > :57:05.interfaith harmony. It is open to a Minister to volunteer a statement.

:57:06. > :57:13.The honourable gentleman is referring to an ongoing problem,

:57:14. > :57:21.arguably of greater salience, scope and prominence. Than in the past. If

:57:22. > :57:26.there is no such statement but the honourable gentleman possibly

:57:27. > :57:32.supported or accompanied by colleagues from across the House

:57:33. > :57:39.wishes to debate the issues, it is open to him to seek either a 1.5

:57:40. > :57:43.hour debate in Westminster Hall or to approach the chair of the

:57:44. > :57:49.Backbench Business Committee, and to seek a debate under its auspices.

:57:50. > :57:53.That is the best and most practical advice I can give to the honourable

:57:54. > :58:05.gentleman who has raised a serious matter in a measured way. Sorry? I'm

:58:06. > :58:10.sure the government Whip has got something to say but it doesn't need

:58:11. > :58:13.to be said in the chamber. It will be of great interest I'm sure. I'm

:58:14. > :58:18.not sure there's much to add. If it's on the same matter, the answer

:58:19. > :58:23.is no. Order. The honourable lady raised a point of order with me

:58:24. > :58:27.yesterday. She sought my guidance and I offered her my guidance. If

:58:28. > :58:32.the point of order is on a similar matter to that which the honourable

:58:33. > :58:43.gentleman has just raised, and to which I have responded with crystal

:58:44. > :58:47.clarity, there is nothing to add. Further to the point of order and my

:58:48. > :58:57.point of order yesterday, I would like to seek some clarification on

:58:58. > :59:02.the basis of... Order, forgive me. I have really dealt, as I think is

:59:03. > :59:08.extremely clear, with a serious matter raised in a very measured way

:59:09. > :59:13.by the honourable gentleman and given clear advice. If there are

:59:14. > :59:19.people who are unclear on the basis of what I've said, I'm frankly

:59:20. > :59:24.surprised by that, but it is open to them to approach me for further

:59:25. > :59:28.guidance. What they shouldn't seek to do, I'm sure the honourable lady

:59:29. > :59:31.wouldn't seek to do so for one moment, what they shouldn't seek to

:59:32. > :59:35.do is to appease the procedures of the House. I've tried to help the

:59:36. > :59:43.honourable lady and we will leave it there for now. Point of order. Where

:59:44. > :59:51.an MP is elected by Parliament to represent asked on a foreign

:59:52. > :59:55.delegation, and is subsequently sent home from that delegation for

:59:56. > :00:01.inappropriate behaviour, will those cases always be reported back to the

:00:02. > :00:08.body that elected them, and have they been in the past? What I would

:00:09. > :00:13.say to the honourable gentleman is as follows. He's raised an extremely

:00:14. > :00:22.important matter, and again for the avoidance of doubt, I do not

:00:23. > :00:27.consider or treat it like -- treat it lightly. The House will note that

:00:28. > :00:31.the honourable gentleman raised the issue in extremely broad terms. I

:00:32. > :00:38.don't knock him to doing that but I say it by way of factual response. I

:00:39. > :00:42.say to the honourable gentleman on advice about raising a point of

:00:43. > :00:51.order in the House is not necessarily an effective way, or

:00:52. > :00:56.even necessarily a proper way, of pursuing an allegation of

:00:57. > :01:01.impropriety against anybody, whether a member of the House or anybody

:01:02. > :01:07.else. If the honourable gentleman has grounds for supposing there has

:01:08. > :01:11.been impropriety by an honourable or right honourable friend the, falling

:01:12. > :01:17.short of possible criminality which would obviously be considered

:01:18. > :01:23.elsewhere, I ask the honourable gentleman to write to me. I'm sure

:01:24. > :01:29.he's interested in the issue rather than for examples securing

:01:30. > :01:32.Parliamentary attention. I know that wouldn't motivate him in anyway. If

:01:33. > :01:37.he's concerned about the issue, and I respect that, he's got a

:01:38. > :01:42.particular point he wants to raise with me in writing, I assure him and

:01:43. > :01:47.more widely I assure the House that I will give the matter my urgent

:01:48. > :01:53.attention. I hope that's helpful to the honourable gentleman. Further to

:01:54. > :02:01.the point of order, Mr Speaker, my motivation is to clarify what is the

:02:02. > :02:05.policy and procedure of the House, in such a circumstance where a

:02:06. > :02:12.member has been elected at any stage by this Parliament. Will that be

:02:13. > :02:16.reported back? As I've just been advised, where a question is

:02:17. > :02:21.hypothetical, it is quite difficult to provide a concrete answer. I

:02:22. > :02:29.would certainly expect that if a suspected abuse had taken place,

:02:30. > :02:34.that would be reported in all likelihood to the political party of

:02:35. > :02:45.which the suspect was a member, depending upon the nature of the

:02:46. > :02:51.visit, that is to say it visit organised by or with sponsorship

:02:52. > :02:56.from a Parliamentary body, it might also be reported elsewhere? I would

:02:57. > :03:02.hope and expect such occurrences or alleged abuses would be reported,

:03:03. > :03:05.and if they are reported, they can expect, or those who are reported

:03:06. > :03:11.them, can expect them to be investigated. I hope the House can

:03:12. > :03:17.see that far from brushing aside the honourable gentleman's concern that

:03:18. > :03:21.any other member, I am keen those matters should be properly explored,

:03:22. > :03:25.but they are not necessarily best explored via the point of order

:03:26. > :03:31.procedure on the floor of the chamber. The honourable gentleman

:03:32. > :03:35.from Milton Keynes swap my guidance. I gave him clear and practical

:03:36. > :03:41.guidance which I expect he will follow, and if practical guidance is

:03:42. > :03:44.what people want, that is what I am seeking to provide. If there are any

:03:45. > :03:49.further points of order that are unrelated I'm happy to take them, if

:03:50. > :04:00.not we should proceed. We should indeed proceed. The ten minute rule

:04:01. > :04:04.notions. I beg leave to bring in a Bill to make provision for

:04:05. > :04:07.affordable homeownership, to required the inclusion of rent to

:04:08. > :04:12.buy homes in a definition of affordable housing, to make

:04:13. > :04:15.provision for a minimum proportion of new affordable housing to be

:04:16. > :04:23.available on affordable rental by terms, to provide relief from stamp

:04:24. > :04:29.duty when an affordable rent to buy home is purchased, and for connected

:04:30. > :04:33.purposes. It is beyond dispute that homeownership is by far and away the

:04:34. > :04:40.most popular and desirable form of housing tenure. This is confirmed by

:04:41. > :04:46.the British social attitudes survey which shows 86% of people aspire to

:04:47. > :04:50.own a home. Homeownership also lies at the heart of a true property

:04:51. > :04:56.owning democracy in which young and old alike are able to take

:04:57. > :05:02.responsibility for their own lives. Homeownership facilitates

:05:03. > :05:05.flexibility in the size and location of accommodation, taking into

:05:06. > :05:09.account changes in the face of employment or additions to the

:05:10. > :05:12.family. It also encourages long-term financial independence from the

:05:13. > :05:18.state and therefore from taxpayer subsidies. With homeownership so

:05:19. > :05:23.popular and so manifestly in the public interest, one is bound to ask

:05:24. > :05:29.the question why has it been allowed to decline? It is now at a 30 year

:05:30. > :05:40.low of only 63%. I think the answer is a lack of

:05:41. > :05:43.affordability. In most parts of the country, the price of houses has

:05:44. > :05:49.increased far faster than earnings. The greatest impact has been upon

:05:50. > :05:54.younger buyers. In the 1980s, six out of ten of those aged under the

:05:55. > :06:00.age of 40 were homeowners. Now, fewer than four out of ten. To her

:06:01. > :06:05.credit, the Prime Minister clearly wishes to correct this public policy

:06:06. > :06:12.failure, which is having such an adverse impact upon the next

:06:13. > :06:14.generation of aspiring homeowners. Proposals in the affordable

:06:15. > :06:19.homeownership bill should be particularly appealing to the

:06:20. > :06:25.government. This is not least because proposals do not add to the

:06:26. > :06:29.nation's debt but by ensuring some land set aside by the 16 planning

:06:30. > :06:34.agreements for affordable housing is earmarked for homes built for

:06:35. > :06:39.affordable rents to buy. My bill requires the government to put

:06:40. > :06:54.beyond legal dull for local authorities must treat affordable

:06:55. > :06:59.rental by -- rent to buy. For those not familiar with affordable rent to

:07:00. > :07:06.buy, it works by producing an accessible route for those who

:07:07. > :07:13.cannot feed immediately afford a budget. The still require upfront

:07:14. > :07:18.funding but under affordable rent to buy, families take out a fixed

:07:19. > :07:24.five-year renewable short hold tenancy and agree to pay and

:07:25. > :07:30.affordable rent, 80% of the market rent, normally, for a period of

:07:31. > :07:36.five, ten, 15 or 20 years. I paying an affordable rent, families can

:07:37. > :07:40.begin to save towards a deposit. In addition, under the scheme,

:07:41. > :07:43.pioneered by a small number of imaginative local authorities,

:07:44. > :07:48.tenants receive 10% of the property's market value as a gifted

:07:49. > :07:53.deposit to add to their savings and reduce mortgage costs at the point

:07:54. > :07:58.of purchase. On becoming 100% homeowners after five, ten, 15 or 20

:07:59. > :08:02.years, tenants are able to access a wide range of mortgage products,

:08:03. > :08:08.utilising the creditworthiness that they would have developed during

:08:09. > :08:10.their time as tenants. The security of tenure also enables families to

:08:11. > :08:16.develop roots in their local community. The model to which I

:08:17. > :08:23.refer is wholly funded by institutional investors. Substantial

:08:24. > :08:28.funds have been forthcoming but a further ?40 billion will be

:08:29. > :08:34.available under the system for new affordable homes, at no cost to the

:08:35. > :08:41.Exchequer. It can provide homes at ?200,000 each. That could provide

:08:42. > :08:45.200,000 such homes. A significant way of addressing the problem we

:08:46. > :08:51.have with housing in the country. But this is all subject to one

:08:52. > :08:55.caveat, which is the purpose of this bill to address. Currently,

:08:56. > :09:00.affordable rent to buy doesn't come clearly within the definition of

:09:01. > :09:05.affordable housing. The bill requires it should so do. There

:09:06. > :09:09.needs to be an explicit reference to affordable rent or buy in the

:09:10. > :09:12.National planning policy framework definition of affordable housing.

:09:13. > :09:16.Such clarity would enable many more local authorities to take forward

:09:17. > :09:22.these innovative schemes. There should be no problem with clarifying

:09:23. > :09:25.the definition for in traditional affordable rent to buy schemes, one

:09:26. > :09:27.in three purchases are moving directly from the social rented

:09:28. > :09:36.sector and almost all others are from the housing waiting list. The

:09:37. > :09:39.briefing published in late August states there is no all-encompassing

:09:40. > :09:43.definition of affordable housing in England. Indeed, there is a good

:09:44. > :09:48.deal of ambiguity in the way the term affordable is used in relation

:09:49. > :09:54.to housing. Mr Speaker, it is to fill this vacuum which is why I

:09:55. > :09:58.brought forward the bill to provide a definition of affordable rent to

:09:59. > :10:02.buy and subject to consultation this will be the definition. Affordable

:10:03. > :10:08.rent to buy housing is housing made available at a rent level that is at

:10:09. > :10:10.least 20% below market rent, including service charges where

:10:11. > :10:16.applicable, and later made available to the tenant living at the property

:10:17. > :10:21.to buy at a cost which may be less than market value. Provision must be

:10:22. > :10:25.made for receipts and a proportion, thereof, to be recycled for

:10:26. > :10:30.affordable housing provision if the subsidy is withdrawn. Eligibility is

:10:31. > :10:39.determined with regard to local incomes and house prices. I have the

:10:40. > :10:46.housing minister on the Treasury bench will embrace this or a similar

:10:47. > :10:50.definition. -- I hope. Despite Parliamentary questions and letters

:10:51. > :10:57.from a number of colleagues, many of whom are co-sponsors of the bill, we

:10:58. > :11:01.are still waiting for a result. It may be that we are waiting for an

:11:02. > :11:04.announcement made not by my honourable friend that the

:11:05. > :11:09.Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 22nd of November but whether it be

:11:10. > :11:16.now or on the 22nd of November, something must be done about this

:11:17. > :11:19.because we need to open up the ?40 billion of private institutional

:11:20. > :11:30.investment in our housing which we desperately need. If one looks, Mr

:11:31. > :11:37.Speaker, as some of us may do at the and website of affordable

:11:38. > :11:43.homeownership schemes, it is depressing. There is certainly no

:11:44. > :11:48.reference to anything as imaginative as the schemes to which I have been

:11:49. > :11:52.referring. To anyone interested in looking at it, I've avoided the need

:11:53. > :12:07.to do so because it has an overview saying how you can have help with a

:12:08. > :12:12.rent to buy I said, through home owned -- help to buy loans, equity

:12:13. > :12:16.and so on. But it does not address the real problem that there are many

:12:17. > :12:20.people in this country who want to embark on the road to homeownership

:12:21. > :12:26.but cannot even afford to save for a deposit because they are paying full

:12:27. > :12:32.market rent rather than an affordable rent. So, Mr Speaker, I

:12:33. > :12:40.hope the government will take seriously the issues raised in this

:12:41. > :12:44.bill. Finally, the significant fiscal changes affecting housing in

:12:45. > :12:50.the last 30 years is the policy of the Treasury to treat stamp duty as

:12:51. > :12:54.a cash cow. Stamp duty is a significant burden for those moving

:12:55. > :12:57.into homeownership. It's a transaction tax and has had the

:12:58. > :13:02.consequences of reducing the number of transactions. My bill would

:13:03. > :13:06.enable the government to give special relief from the burden of

:13:07. > :13:09.Stamp duty in line with a vow of government policy to promote

:13:10. > :13:17.homeownership among first-time buyers. I also hope we can hear more

:13:18. > :13:20.about that in the budget. The bill, Mr Speaker, should enjoy the support

:13:21. > :13:25.of everybody in this house because it works in the vein of public

:13:26. > :13:30.opinion and would enable more people to reach their aspiration are

:13:31. > :13:36.becoming homeowners in the United Kingdom. I beg to move. Gray the

:13:37. > :13:44.question is the honourable member have lead to bring in the bill? As

:13:45. > :13:55.many are of the opinion say iron? Of the country, no. -- say aye? The

:13:56. > :14:02.ayes habit. You will bring in the bill? Craig Tracy, Phillip Potter

:14:03. > :14:06.bone, Steve double, Robert Halfon, Philip Davies, Sir Edward Leigh, Sir

:14:07. > :14:49.Desmond Swain, and myself. Affordable homeownership bill.

:14:50. > :14:53.Second reading, what day? Friday the 3rd of November, sir. Friday the 3rd

:14:54. > :15:02.of November, thank you. Order. We now come to the emergency debate,

:15:03. > :15:04.just before I called the Shadow Secretary of State for Work and

:15:05. > :15:10.Pensions I should advise the house that the debate can last for a

:15:11. > :15:17.maximum of three hours. There is a very significant number of

:15:18. > :15:21.colleagues in excess of 25 colleagues wishing to speak in the

:15:22. > :15:27.debate. Of course there is no time limit on front speeches, but I would

:15:28. > :15:30.be grateful if the front benches would tailor their contributions to

:15:31. > :15:36.take account of the interest of their backbench colleagues. Debbie

:15:37. > :15:41.Abrahams? Thank you, Mr Speaker. If I could thank you once again for

:15:42. > :15:46.granting the emergency debate. It is so important to the people we

:15:47. > :15:50.represent. It's very important we have the opportunity to return to

:15:51. > :15:56.the issue of University Agricola verse of credit roll out, following

:15:57. > :15:59.in from the debate last week. The motion calling for Paws to the

:16:00. > :16:05.programme was unanimously approved by 299 votes to zero. Since then,

:16:06. > :16:10.we've heard nothing from the government asked they will want to

:16:11. > :16:15.do to fix Universal Credit in response to concerns brought last

:16:16. > :16:25.week. I welcome the minister to his place but I would like to ask why

:16:26. > :16:29.the Secretary of State is. -- is not here to answer. I understand

:16:30. > :16:33.emergencies happen but I've not had a satisfactory response from his

:16:34. > :16:41.office and apparently Downing Street are none the wiser either. The press

:16:42. > :16:48.report the government is considering a reduction to the six-week payment

:16:49. > :16:51.when making a claim. If this is correct, when will this happen and

:16:52. > :16:55.will he explain why the government deems it accessible to cook up

:16:56. > :17:00.acceptable to brief the media but not make a statement to the house?

:17:01. > :17:05.Does he recognise constitutional implications of his government's

:17:06. > :17:11.actions to date? I'm very grateful but did she notice at the weekend

:17:12. > :17:13.virtually every conservative, or representative of the government

:17:14. > :17:19.conservative who spoke to the government on the matter that

:17:20. > :17:23.problems were not the policy but implementation but the six-week

:17:24. > :17:29.delay is a policy decision and it was there from the beginning and is

:17:30. > :17:32.causing the poverty and problems. My honourable friend is absolutely

:17:33. > :17:39.right and I think to be fair some of the Conservatives members opposite,

:17:40. > :17:44.and indeed a Conservative assembly member has recognised real issues

:17:45. > :17:50.with the structural design of Universal Credit and has even said

:17:51. > :17:54.it is indefensible. As it stands, there's overwhelming evidence of the

:17:55. > :18:00.harmful impacts of Universal Credit like rising credit, rent arrears and

:18:01. > :18:02.evictions. The government must take action or face serious

:18:03. > :18:06.constitutional questions. The government has had three sitting

:18:07. > :18:10.days to respond to legislature, keeping the house and the country

:18:11. > :18:17.along with 7 million people expected to be the programme waiting. Will my

:18:18. > :18:21.honourable friend give way? The government figures have indicated

:18:22. > :18:27.that 90,000 families will be transitioned onto Universal Credit

:18:28. > :18:32.service over the next three months, or 90 days. On average, for every

:18:33. > :18:35.day that they delay making a decision on this, would my

:18:36. > :18:38.honourable friend agree that there are about 1000 further families

:18:39. > :18:45.every day who has two weight those six weeks to get further into debt?

:18:46. > :18:51.My honourable friend is absolutely right. That is why it is so urgent.

:18:52. > :18:57.This is why the debate is so urgent. We cannot wait. Although it is a

:18:58. > :19:01.small proportion of the full number who will have Universal Credit

:19:02. > :19:05.rolled out to them, it amounts to a 63% increase in the number of people

:19:06. > :19:14.he will be on full service over the next six months. -- who will be

:19:15. > :19:18.able. Does she accept that 50% of those people who have received

:19:19. > :19:24.Universal Credit have received it early enough and applied for an

:19:25. > :19:31.advanced payment? Just to pick up on my honourable friend is, it is a

:19:32. > :19:38.loan. That is one of the important points that I would like to make.

:19:39. > :19:43.I'm very grateful to the honourable lady, I think she nailed it in a

:19:44. > :19:48.remark she made moments ago. There is to be just three sitting days

:19:49. > :19:55.since the opposition Day debate. Well we to prove suppose that the

:19:56. > :20:00.government response to the debate, is it fair to expect Her Majesty's

:20:01. > :20:11.government to respond to that debate within three sitting days? I will

:20:12. > :20:16.come onto that in a moment because the precedent was set by the current

:20:17. > :20:22.government opposite. Can I make these points? I will come onto that.

:20:23. > :20:27.The government has had three sitting days to respond to the legislature.

:20:28. > :20:31.It may be useful to quote the now first Secretary of State, the member

:20:32. > :20:36.for Ashford who, in the last defeat of the government this type, raced

:20:37. > :20:39.the point of order and said "In the wake of the devastating vote for the

:20:40. > :20:43.government, have you had any indication that the ministers intend

:20:44. > :20:48.to come to the house and make a statement about how they propose to

:20:49. > :20:53.change their policy as the house has now spoken?" That was in 2009 and

:20:54. > :20:58.within 3.5 hours a statement from the then government was made. The

:20:59. > :21:02.member for Ashford changed his tune a little last Thursday when he said

:21:03. > :21:05.all governments had to abide by the rules of Parliament. We are a

:21:06. > :21:09.Parliamentary democracy but as the speaker said last night, opposition

:21:10. > :21:13.day motions like that are non-binding and so do not engage

:21:14. > :21:21.government activity particularly. You

:21:22. > :21:26.This has raised a fundamental question to report said the

:21:27. > :21:29.Government no longer content to fire conservative members of Parliament

:21:30. > :21:35.to vote against opposition Day motions. I will. She referred

:21:36. > :21:40.earlier to the fact that the interim payment was in her words a loan. If

:21:41. > :21:46.it wasn't a loan, it would increase the overall quantum benefits being

:21:47. > :21:51.paid. Is that what she is proposing, to increase the overall quantum of

:21:52. > :21:55.benefits being paid? I will come onto exactly what I am proposing

:21:56. > :21:59.very shortly. If the Government's position is that opposition date

:22:00. > :22:04.bait motions should have no binding effect on the actions of Government,

:22:05. > :22:06.this fundamentally alters the relationship and balance of power

:22:07. > :22:12.between the executive and Parliament, namely the departure

:22:13. > :22:15.vote on legislation and matters of confidence, they can ignore the

:22:16. > :22:20.decisions and will of Parliament. This is very dangerous ground

:22:21. > :22:25.indeed, Mr Speaker. It needs to be seen in the context of the blatant

:22:26. > :22:33.power grab by the executive, as we witnessed at last month's second

:22:34. > :22:37.reading of the EU Withdrawal Bill. It would suggest there is a change

:22:38. > :22:40.in precedent here if the honourable lady is accusing the Government

:22:41. > :22:45.office. These have never been binding on the Government. That is a

:22:46. > :22:50.president, position entrenched by the fixed term Parliament act.

:22:51. > :22:54.Badger, I am grateful to the honourable member for his comment,

:22:55. > :23:02.but the point is that we need to have an urgent response to this

:23:03. > :23:06.really, really important issue. Mr Speaker, what we are calling for is

:23:07. > :23:11.a clear set of proposals from this Government as to how they might

:23:12. > :23:13.reflect the will of the house and pours Universal Credit roll-out,

:23:14. > :23:21.while the issues I raised and many more that I have no time to our

:23:22. > :23:24.fixed. I thank my honourable friend way for securing this debate. Was

:23:25. > :23:27.she surprised as I was about the lack of a denial of the seriousness

:23:28. > :23:30.of the issues that are coming through from the Government benches

:23:31. > :23:33.right now? Those common to give no succour to my constituents, one of

:23:34. > :23:35.them a mother of three currently sipping on her cousin was accurate,

:23:36. > :23:41.effective from home because of nonpayment of rent due to Universal

:23:42. > :23:50.Credit delay. This is not about the Government. This is about real

:23:51. > :23:56.people, our constituents. My honourable friend raises such an

:23:57. > :23:59.important case. It is absolutely shocking in 2017 the fifth richest

:24:00. > :24:03.economy in the world that we are having cases brought to our

:24:04. > :24:07.surgeries day in and day out. The thing is, it is going to get worse

:24:08. > :24:16.and this is unacceptable, absolutely unacceptable. Thank you for giving

:24:17. > :24:19.way. At the moment, it feels to me to pause Universal Credit determined

:24:20. > :24:21.by statutory instrument as you will note has passed, there is another

:24:22. > :24:26.opportunity in January when there will be another month of an in-built

:24:27. > :24:28.bars in the system. If we could find some compromise with the Government

:24:29. > :24:34.and make some significant changes to the policy such as reducing the

:24:35. > :24:38.weight to four weeks. Would that change your point of view? It needs

:24:39. > :24:42.to happen ardently, as the honourable member knows. This is

:24:43. > :24:49.already happening. Already 55 areas this month are having full service

:24:50. > :24:53.rolled out to them. The colder months are upon us. Christmas will

:24:54. > :25:00.be around the corner any moment now. We need urgent response now. I thank

:25:01. > :25:04.my honourable friend forgiving way. I have had a number of cases but one

:25:05. > :25:09.in particular over the last Christmas period waited for two

:25:10. > :25:12.months without any money to get any redress. When we come to the

:25:13. > :25:18.constitutional question on this, democracy can only work if everyone

:25:19. > :25:21.gets involved and it is no good the Government bypassing Parliament to

:25:22. > :25:26.do that. I totally agree with what my honourable friend is saying. We

:25:27. > :25:30.must have a response of Government, a Government that is going to listen

:25:31. > :25:34.to the will of the house and the people that we represent. It is not

:25:35. > :25:39.good enough just to say that it is not a binding motion. We need to

:25:40. > :25:47.have action. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Does she agree

:25:48. > :25:51.with me that the pause is now urgent? The roll-out will begin

:25:52. > :25:57.halfway through November in my area. Six weeks later, it is Christmas.

:25:58. > :26:01.The DWP will not be open on Christmas Day, which means many of

:26:02. > :26:05.my constituents will have to wait until the New Year for any

:26:06. > :26:10.assistance. Which is why our local food bank is looking to collect 15

:26:11. > :26:16.tonnes of extra food to deal with the demand. Does she agree with me

:26:17. > :26:19.that it is time this Parliament listened and the Government listened

:26:20. > :26:25.to what Parliament is saying and acted to alleviate this obviously

:26:26. > :26:32.unavoidable hardship? -- obviously unavoidable. Again, my honourable

:26:33. > :26:35.friend make such an important point and I will pick up on the point you

:26:36. > :26:38.made about the food banks. The good banks are running out of food as

:26:39. > :26:43.this scheme is being rolled out. What is going to happen to these

:26:44. > :26:51.families that desperately need these financial supports? I thank my

:26:52. > :26:54.honourable friend forgiving way. My constituent has severe mental health

:26:55. > :26:58.problems. He has been signed off as sick until December. We go out on to

:26:59. > :27:02.Universal Credit in November and he has been advised that if he doesn't

:27:03. > :27:05.prove that he is looking for work, you will be sanctioned and his

:27:06. > :27:10.benefits will be stopped. Does she agree that it is dangerous where

:27:11. > :27:16.they are essentially overriding the views of registered doctors? Again,

:27:17. > :27:24.my honourable friend make such an important point about the impact of

:27:25. > :27:27.an work conditionality. We know that there are about a million people on

:27:28. > :27:32.zero-hour contracts who may not know from one week to the next whether

:27:33. > :27:38.they are able to work 35 hours a week or not. We know how much harm

:27:39. > :27:41.it is going to do. This is people doing the right thing, potentially

:27:42. > :27:47.being sanctioned if they are deemed that they are not working long

:27:48. > :27:51.enough hours. My horrible event is being very generous with her time. I

:27:52. > :27:56.raised the issue of private sector landlords being reluctant to rent

:27:57. > :27:59.properties to people on the credit. But does she also know that social

:28:00. > :28:03.landlords will more frequently issue a notice indicating that they will

:28:04. > :28:07.seek possession of a property if people are in arrears for only a

:28:08. > :28:09.week, and is it also not scandalous that as people approach the

:28:10. > :28:16.Christmas period that such a letter and read will be hanging over them?

:28:17. > :28:22.Absolutely. What we are hearing about, what is happening now, surely

:28:23. > :28:25.this isn't right. This must stop, this. I'm going to make some

:28:26. > :28:30.progress of that is all right and then I will take further

:28:31. > :28:33.interventions. So we must, for those who may not have been keeping up

:28:34. > :28:36.with the hundreds of stories and we have already heard them now from

:28:37. > :28:40.colleagues from both sides, we must make sure that the Government

:28:41. > :28:46.hardship programme is amended to take account of the real hardship

:28:47. > :28:49.that is happening and this is not just from claimants. It is from

:28:50. > :28:54.charities that are dealing with claimants. It is from many, many

:28:55. > :29:00.other organisations as well. And there are three key issues with a

:29:01. > :29:04.Universal Credit. First of all, around programme design flaws. They

:29:05. > :29:11.have been there since the outset, as I mentioned last week. The cuts that

:29:12. > :29:14.were introduced in 2015 and various implementation failures. So first

:29:15. > :29:18.round the programme launch, as we have heard, the six-week wait being

:29:19. > :29:24.applied to new claimants before any payment is received is particularly

:29:25. > :29:28.Draconian, and having real impact. Four weeks of this is to allow

:29:29. > :29:34.Universal Credit to be backdated, but an additional week week was

:29:35. > :29:37.added as policy and a week awaiting payment to arrive. And this is

:29:38. > :29:45.believed to be one of the primary drivers of the rising debt arrears

:29:46. > :29:49.that we are now seeing. I am very grateful. She refers to a six weeks

:29:50. > :29:53.delay before any payment is received but she is aware that payments are

:29:54. > :29:59.made available at the initial stage suit is not quite the case that it

:30:00. > :30:08.is six weeks before any payment is received. Would you accept that? No,

:30:09. > :30:11.I don't. So half of those in rent arrears entered into rent arrears

:30:12. > :30:14.after making the claim and I think that is so important to stress. One

:30:15. > :30:18.in four we know are waiting more than six weeks. One in ten are

:30:19. > :30:27.waiting more than ten weeks. The Government may claim... Badger, I

:30:28. > :30:31.appreciate my honourable friend giving way. Would she agree with me

:30:32. > :30:35.that with one and a half million people on housing benefit in the

:30:36. > :30:38.private rental sector and private landlords not having the

:30:39. > :30:42.collectability or even the patients that housing associations and

:30:43. > :30:46.councils will have that if 50% of those million and a half people who

:30:47. > :30:53.will be on Universal Credit, should they lose their homes it will be an

:30:54. > :30:57.absolute catastrophe? And we know the real issues around the housing

:30:58. > :31:01.crisis at the moment, so I think the honourable member makes a very fair

:31:02. > :31:14.point indeed. The Government claim that payment one month in arrears is

:31:15. > :31:19.to mimic the world of work. But we know that data published shows that

:31:20. > :31:23.a quarter of the lowest rate, those most likely to be on Universal

:31:24. > :31:26.Credit, are paid every week or fortnightly. As my honourable friend

:31:27. > :31:32.the member for wood or West said, given that nearly 400,000 more

:31:33. > :31:35.people are due to go on Universal Credit over the winter, at this

:31:36. > :31:39.rate, 80,000 people will be waiting more than six weeks and 40,000

:31:40. > :31:46.people more than ten weeks for their first payment. This is my last

:31:47. > :31:48.intervention. I am very grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way.

:31:49. > :31:54.She's making a very important point these policies are not accidental.

:31:55. > :31:57.They are baked into the Universal Credit policy and that is why it is

:31:58. > :32:00.not unreasonable to Aceh governor to respond within three sitting days,

:32:01. > :32:06.to the opposition Day debate last week. But will my honourable friend

:32:07. > :32:11.agree with me with my concern is that the Universal Credit payment is

:32:12. > :32:23.only make you one member of a household and the consequences of

:32:24. > :32:26.that for domestic violence victims? Again, my honourable friend make

:32:27. > :32:30.such an important point. I am going to come onto all the different

:32:31. > :32:33.issues that there are. I raise the issue of the so-called advanced

:32:34. > :32:36.payment and as I have is mentioned in response to the intervention,

:32:37. > :32:41.this is in fact a loan. It has to be paid back in six months. Other

:32:42. > :32:45.design issues I mentioned last week included... I am sorry. I am not

:32:46. > :32:49.taking any more interventions now. Other design issues I mentioned last

:32:50. > :32:54.week included the payment being made to one member of the household,

:32:55. > :32:59.predominantly men. And the second earner is predominantly women,

:33:00. > :33:02.facing much reduced working hours. The severe disability premium

:33:03. > :33:05.payments are not incorporated into Universal Credit. Rent is paid to

:33:06. > :33:10.the claimant rather than the landlord. Self-employed people are

:33:11. > :33:14.subject to the punitive minimum income floor, which fails to reflect

:33:15. > :33:18.the reality of the peaks and troughs in their working hours. And that in

:33:19. > :33:24.work conditionality is coming down the track, meaning a million working

:33:25. > :33:29.people visiting job centres and facing financial sanctions if they

:33:30. > :33:32.fail to work the hours their job coach teams they must. On top of

:33:33. > :33:37.this, Mr Speaker, there is the real-time information was and for

:33:38. > :33:42.which there is no time limit to disputes leading to more delays in

:33:43. > :33:45.payments and of course the child element of Universal Credit, which

:33:46. > :33:52.has been reduced from 20 to 19 years. Turning now to the cuts to

:33:53. > :33:55.the programme since it was introduced, Universal Credit was

:33:56. > :33:59.meant to signify the system, but was also meant to make work pay.

:34:00. > :34:05.Principles we have always supported and still do. Unfortunately, the

:34:06. > :34:08.2015 summer but it sort the rate slashed and the rate at which it was

:34:09. > :34:11.withdrawn has dramatically increased. As the Institute for

:34:12. > :34:15.Fiscal Studies stayed in response to this budget, this meant that the

:34:16. > :34:22.promise that work would always pay was lost. The cuts would the work

:34:23. > :34:25.allowances from ?222 a month to ?192 per month for a couple with two

:34:26. > :34:33.children claiming housing costs. A cut that will result in an estimated

:34:34. > :34:40.340,000 additional people in poverty by 2020. It also left some families

:34:41. > :34:44.as much as ?2600 a year worse off. Those with three children will be

:34:45. > :34:47.facing even more difficulty as the Government has decided that the

:34:48. > :34:53.state should play no role in supporting the life chances of the

:34:54. > :34:55.third child. Mr Speaker, a whole generation of children will now be

:34:56. > :35:00.born without the support offered to their siblings, a break with the

:35:01. > :35:03.historical principle that the state would not punish children for the

:35:04. > :35:08.circumstances of their parents. And single parents have been

:35:09. > :35:15.particularly badly hit. In real terms, a single parent working with

:35:16. > :35:17.two children, a teacher working full-time, will be ?3700 a year

:35:18. > :35:26.worse off. do this is before we reach the

:35:27. > :35:29.government freeze on Social Security which is predicted to push half a

:35:30. > :35:34.million more people over the poverty line and their analysis shows in

:35:35. > :35:39.2020 the freeze will mean a family of four receiving Universal Credit

:35:40. > :35:48.will be ever a worse off, on top of the other cuts I outlined. -- over

:35:49. > :35:53.worse off. Considering the Universal Credit beyond 2020, given that this

:35:54. > :36:02.was introduced with an inflation level at 0.3% and it is now 3%. As I

:36:03. > :36:05.revealed last week, the action group's forthcoming report as to

:36:06. > :36:10.make these cuts will see 1 million more children pushed into poverty,

:36:11. > :36:13.300,000 of them under the age of five. What does it say about this

:36:14. > :36:18.government? That their policies knowingly pushed children into

:36:19. > :36:22.poverty? The Secretary of State, the minister and many others on the side

:36:23. > :36:26.of the house try and suggest data that apparently shows a 3% increase

:36:27. > :36:29.in employment outcomes under Universal Credit when compared with

:36:30. > :36:33.the previous system was evidence that Universal Credit works in

:36:34. > :36:39.getting people into work. However, what they fail to add was that this

:36:40. > :36:43.data was from 2015, before cuts were implemented. Will the Minister

:36:44. > :36:47.commit now to updating this figure or will he retract the numerous

:36:48. > :36:55.times he used these particular statistics? It's also worth noting

:36:56. > :37:03.that the most recent figures show and underspend on tax credits by as

:37:04. > :37:05.much as 2.4% on what was projected by the office of budgetary

:37:06. > :37:11.responsibility. Can the government provide the exact figure on the

:37:12. > :37:15.savings it created? Couldn't some of this underspend be put toward

:37:16. > :37:20.sorting the problems we encounter under the new programme? I will

:37:21. > :37:26.return to this point. I'm so sorry, I won't now. Turning to the

:37:27. > :37:30.implementation failings, leaving aside the many changes to the

:37:31. > :37:34.schedule in the programme of the last few years, the most recent

:37:35. > :37:38.roll-out has been beset with issues. I'm glad the government listened to

:37:39. > :37:43.Labour and will be replacing the high cost phone line to a freephone

:37:44. > :37:46.phone line. Can the Minister provide me with a timetable as to when it

:37:47. > :37:53.will happen and also assure me that the freephone line will not be

:37:54. > :37:58.funded by the taxpayer but by the contractor psycho. Other

:37:59. > :38:02.implementation issues remain including people being denied

:38:03. > :38:08.prescriptions and dental treatments -- by the contractors. And not

:38:09. > :38:13.knowing about alternative arrangements or payments. I have

:38:14. > :38:17.been inundated with e-mails and calls from people telling me their

:38:18. > :38:20.Universal Credit horror stories, the self-employed woman worried she is

:38:21. > :38:25.going to lose her business and home when she goes to Universal Credit.

:38:26. > :38:28.I've had so many from people who are self-employed, you would not believe

:38:29. > :38:33.it. They are really concerned about what it will mean to them. A private

:38:34. > :38:39.landlord, who was worried that three of his tenants owe him thousands of

:38:40. > :38:42.pounds in arrears and Universal Credit, although they had never been

:38:43. > :38:52.in arrears before. Southwark Council estimate on average there are

:38:53. > :38:58.arrears of ?1700 per Universal Credit tenant. Premiums disappear as

:38:59. > :39:04.well as other disability support. Even current and former DWP advisers

:39:05. > :39:10.are expressing deep concerns about the programme and the fate of

:39:11. > :39:16.claimants. I come back to my askeds. Enter the six-week wait, bring it

:39:17. > :39:20.forward by at least one week. If it is two, as widely reported, it would

:39:21. > :39:25.make a huge difference. In short alternative payment arrangements are

:39:26. > :39:29.offered to all claimants at the time of their claim, to suggest it

:39:30. > :39:35.already happens is more than a little disingenuous. The DWP

:39:36. > :39:40.guidance is vague, to say the least. The alternative payment arrangement

:39:41. > :39:48.options include fortnightly payments, split payments and

:39:49. > :39:52.payments directly to the landlord. Thirdly, reconsider closing one in

:39:53. > :39:56.ten job centres at the same time as rolling out the programme, it is

:39:57. > :40:01.nonsensical that this is happening at the same time. Finally, given the

:40:02. > :40:07.latest assessment from the Obiang, which shows a projected 5%

:40:08. > :40:09.underspend which is equivalent to ?660 million, will the government

:40:10. > :40:16.committed to investing it back into the programme, for example, to

:40:17. > :40:22.eliminate the two child limit? Can I also remind him my earlier question

:40:23. > :40:26.on lifting Social Security freeze from 2020? This is all reason for

:40:27. > :40:31.the government to respect the will of the house. This country's elected

:40:32. > :40:36.representatives and pours Universal Credit full-service roll-out. I

:40:37. > :40:41.stand ready to work with them in the national interests to address these

:40:42. > :40:53.issues and avert the disaster that is Universal Credit. The decision of

:40:54. > :41:00.the house on pausing the Universal Credit full-service roll-out, I call

:41:01. > :41:06.the minister Damian Hines... Thank you. We had a very good debate last

:41:07. > :41:11.week, with around 80 members contributing. As I said then, there

:41:12. > :41:15.were passionate, thoughtful and insightful speeches from across the

:41:16. > :41:18.house. I'm also aware that many honourable members wish to take part

:41:19. > :41:22.in the debate today and for that reason I will keep my remarks brief.

:41:23. > :41:31.The honourable lady pushed us to respond to last week's vote. It may

:41:32. > :41:38.help, before coming to substantive measures, I put the boat into

:41:39. > :41:42.context. -- I put the vote into context. We take part fully in all

:41:43. > :41:48.proceedings of the house including opposition debates. Last Wednesday,

:41:49. > :41:55.the secretary... I just said not yet. Large numbers of Conservative

:41:56. > :41:59.MPs made valuable contributions. The decision on whether or not to vote

:42:00. > :42:06.is a matter for members and their parties... And Mr Speaker, as you

:42:07. > :42:13.noted last week, it is a legitimate one to take. Universal Credit was

:42:14. > :42:17.fully legislated for in 2012 and in subsequent SIs and it was debated by

:42:18. > :42:21.Parliament. The honourable lady. I just want to ask the minister if he

:42:22. > :42:29.thought we had such a good debate last week why did his party abstain

:42:30. > :42:33.from voting? Mr Speaker, I will come to many of the things that came out

:42:34. > :42:37.of the debate. As I said, the legitimate decision to vote, or

:42:38. > :42:41.otherwise, in such a debate, there is much that you take from a debate

:42:42. > :42:50.like that and I thought it was a very high-quality session of the

:42:51. > :42:56.house. Mr Speaker, I will not... The right honourable gentleman. I have

:42:57. > :43:00.asked the Secretary of State twice, and now the minister twice. On

:43:01. > :43:05.advice for me to take home to Birkenhead. On the Secretary of

:43:06. > :43:09.State's advice, he says the roll-out of Universal Credit in Birkenhead in

:43:10. > :43:15.November will all go hunky-dory. No need to worry. People are not going

:43:16. > :43:21.to be reduced to hunger and perhaps destitution. On the other hand, we

:43:22. > :43:25.have a food bank in Birkenhead buses on the experience of other areas

:43:26. > :43:29.where the benefits have been rolled out, they will need to raise another

:43:30. > :43:34.15 tonnes of food in the coming year. Should I go home and tell

:43:35. > :43:37.people not to pay any attention to the food bank, they are

:43:38. > :43:43.scaremongering? Or put all of our trust in the Minister that this will

:43:44. > :43:48.work? Mr Speaker, it is right he has put that point forward a number of

:43:49. > :43:52.times. Last time he put it in the context specifically of Christmas, I

:43:53. > :43:58.am aware that organisations like the banks do have an increase in their

:43:59. > :44:08.activity at Christmas time. I think we have to be careful, in describing

:44:09. > :44:16.reasons for the usage of the banks to individual causes... I am

:44:17. > :44:23.responding to the gentleman next to me... I understand the strong

:44:24. > :44:27.passion in the debate but members should respectively wait for the

:44:28. > :44:31.Minister to deal with one intervention before immediately

:44:32. > :44:35.seeking to embark upon another. If I may gently say so I think the

:44:36. > :44:41.Minister himself is a most courteous fellow and should be treated with

:44:42. > :44:47.courtesy. Minister? In response to the right honourable gentleman, the

:44:48. > :44:52.last time we said we do not expected to happen, we want the system to

:44:53. > :44:56.work as well as it can. We approved the advice, on advances to ensure

:44:57. > :45:03.that people get the assistance that they need... If you forgive me,

:45:04. > :45:13.unconscious of the time and the large number of people who wish to

:45:14. > :45:17.take part. This is not the food bank thinking up ideas or targets. This

:45:18. > :45:22.is our food bank talking to other food banks in other areas that have

:45:23. > :45:28.already had the roll-out. On that basis they suggest in the coming

:45:29. > :45:33.year, not just Christmas, they need to raise an additional 15 tonnes of

:45:34. > :45:37.food. Are they scaremongering? Should we put them aside? Should we

:45:38. > :45:42.believe them? The government will not be able to deliver universal

:45:43. > :45:47.benefit without reducing people to hunger? Does that make you proud? I

:45:48. > :45:50.will not say a word against the right honourable gentleman's

:45:51. > :45:54.feedback or suggest they are doing anything else negative or anything

:45:55. > :45:57.like that but in response to the question, we do not expect these

:45:58. > :46:04.things to happen as we want the system to work as well as I possibly

:46:05. > :46:10.can, and it continues to improve in its performance and we continue to

:46:11. > :46:18.evolve and improve the system. If he will forgive me, we also continue an

:46:19. > :46:22.active dialogue with members across the house, and others outside and we

:46:23. > :46:27.listen to concerns. Where we hear about improvements and identify

:46:28. > :46:33.needs to be made, we make them. As the Secretary of State and I said in

:46:34. > :46:39.closing the debate last week, the government will roll out the benefit

:46:40. > :46:43.gradually and adjust as necessary as we go. The opposition are asking for

:46:44. > :46:49.a pause in the roll-out. We already have planned pauses in the roll-out.

:46:50. > :46:53.We just had one and another is scheduled for January. These breaks

:46:54. > :46:57.in the schedule had intentionally been built in. They illustrate my

:46:58. > :47:02.point of a slow and considered roll-out, rather than the

:47:03. > :47:05.alternative Big Bang approach, an approach which members opposite may

:47:06. > :47:12.recognise from 2003, with the disastrous implementation of working

:47:13. > :47:17.tax credits with billions misspent and many families left without money

:47:18. > :47:25.for six months, and many more facing huge repayment bills. The honourable

:47:26. > :47:30.gentleman. If the government is so confident in their position why have

:47:31. > :47:33.they refused to publish the risk register set out for the whole of

:47:34. > :47:40.Parliament? They are asking what has been planned for? These debates risk

:47:41. > :47:43.registers in a number of different policies, this all happened when the

:47:44. > :47:48.Labour Party were in government as well. I think people in general

:47:49. > :47:52.would agree that it is important for the management of government to be

:47:53. > :48:02.able to consider these things in the way that they are. Mr Speaker, the

:48:03. > :48:07.honourable gentleman...? The speaker is a courteous man, I haven't

:48:08. > :48:12.received a response yet, I was open to question him on the point that

:48:13. > :48:17.prior to coming to this point, this policy is flawed because it relies

:48:18. > :48:21.on hardship payments from day one. Hardship payments that should not be

:48:22. > :48:27.a policy decision. He could do the decent thing now and pause this, or

:48:28. > :48:36.even reduce that period. I ask him to respond directly to that point?

:48:37. > :48:40.Mr Speaker, this system replaces a deeply flawed one, and striving to

:48:41. > :48:48.face up head on to endemic problems that we have had for decades. They

:48:49. > :48:53.were left to difficult to deal with. A system where complexity and

:48:54. > :48:56.bureaucracy had so often served to stifle the independence, limit

:48:57. > :49:03.choice and constrain outlook of claimants. And unlike the tax credit

:49:04. > :49:09.roll-out in 2003, the Minister of the government built in a slow

:49:10. > :49:13.roll-out and then proved adaptable in terms of the portal, advances and

:49:14. > :49:18.the ever-increasing speed with which these claims are being made? By

:49:19. > :49:24.honourable friend is quite right, we will not remake those mistakes of

:49:25. > :49:29.the past and that is why it is such a careful and gradual process.

:49:30. > :49:37.Universal Credit, my honourable friend. Would he agree, therefore,

:49:38. > :49:42.that by doing the roll-out in a steady period of time over nine

:49:43. > :49:45.years, it enables us to continue to learn and adapt as we go on and

:49:46. > :49:51.develop the best system which is clearly what we are doing? Mr

:49:52. > :49:56.Speaker, I agree entirely. It is a process so important to going

:49:57. > :50:03.through and optimising the system is Universal Credit helps you into

:50:04. > :50:06.work, and get on in work. Eventually, we estimate around 7

:50:07. > :50:11.million people will be benefiting from the advantages that it brings

:50:12. > :50:19.with a quarter of a million more people in paid work as a result. It

:50:20. > :50:22.is already working. Three separate studies show with Universal Credit

:50:23. > :50:31.people getting to work faster than with JS say and when they are there,

:50:32. > :50:39.they do not face the cliff edges that have held people back. Thank

:50:40. > :50:42.you, Mr Speaker. The debate in January, January the 16th, the

:50:43. > :50:46.government listen to the debate and some requests. There have been

:50:47. > :50:50.changes which have improved but it is the cuts and savage

:50:51. > :50:57.implementation of the sanctions that are the hardest and giving a loan to

:50:58. > :50:58.somebody already in debt does not help at all, we should not be doing

:50:59. > :51:06.that. Well, we do think that having a

:51:07. > :51:11.system with conditionality is important. The level of sanctions is

:51:12. > :51:15.down quite significantly your idea and the vast majority of people are

:51:16. > :51:23.not receiving sanctions. As you yourself said... I am very grateful

:51:24. > :51:28.to the Minister. Wallaby flexibilities Labour asked for was

:51:29. > :51:33.the opportunity to pay rent direct to the landlord so that the tenancy

:51:34. > :51:38.is protected. Is that something the ministers considering? Not only

:51:39. > :51:40.considering, but in response to my Right Honourable friend, over a

:51:41. > :51:48.third of tenants in the social rented section have had arrangements

:51:49. > :51:55.for vulnerable claimants, for those for whom that particular arrangement

:51:56. > :52:02.is important. As you said last week, Mr Speaker, what we do in this house

:52:03. > :52:06.is important. Members insights are important as well. Indeed, members

:52:07. > :52:13.of Parliament are uniquely placed to funnel and convey feedback, critique

:52:14. > :52:16.and proposals for improvements. I thank my honourable friend forgiving

:52:17. > :52:20.way and I would pay tribute to him since debris of this year he has

:52:21. > :52:24.engaged with my constituents to improve Universal Credit, but taking

:52:25. > :52:28.into account this debate that we have had in the last few days, would

:52:29. > :52:34.you not agree with me that to make Universal Credit truly flexible and

:52:35. > :52:39.personalised, but also fair, it is now necessary to ensure that first

:52:40. > :52:46.payments are made faster and private sector landlords are able to set up

:52:47. > :52:51.payments on the same basis as social landlords? Well, Mr Speaker, we are

:52:52. > :52:54.continuing to improve processes and that does include on that point he

:52:55. > :52:59.made around making sure that alternative payment arrangements in

:53:00. > :53:03.the private rented sector work as well as they can. That is an issue

:53:04. > :53:07.on which he and I have had an opportunity to talk before. And from

:53:08. > :53:15.the debate last week... Yes, of course. In looking at what might be

:53:16. > :53:18.available to him, would you look at the situation in Northern Ireland,

:53:19. > :53:22.where by default payments are made directly to the landlord? Where

:53:23. > :53:28.payments are made only two weekly basis unless claimants request

:53:29. > :53:34.otherwise, and where splits payments again are made on the basis of

:53:35. > :53:37.demands from the individual claimants, if those changes were

:53:38. > :53:44.introduced in Northern Ireland and are working effectively, would he

:53:45. > :53:50.take some guidance from that? It is of devolution that that you will get

:53:51. > :53:55.different systems operating as there is a different approach in Northern

:53:56. > :53:57.Ireland. A different approach again in Scotland. There is a different

:53:58. > :54:01.approach again in Scotland. They're not exactly the same. Just for

:54:02. > :54:05.clarity, I should mention that all three of the things that he has

:54:06. > :54:09.identified, that is to say rent paid directly to landlords as we does

:54:10. > :54:14.disgust and also more frequent claimants and split payments which

:54:15. > :54:18.came up. All these things are possible in England as well when

:54:19. > :54:21.appropriate for individuals. I do want to press on now because I don't

:54:22. > :54:27.want to take up too much time from the debate. From last week's debate,

:54:28. > :54:31.as well as the general commentary received and heard, I have also

:54:32. > :54:37.taken away a number of points that were raised for action. There were

:54:38. > :54:41.some individual cases and also a policy in process matters. These

:54:42. > :54:46.included, as we were just saying, how we can prove arrangements for

:54:47. > :54:52.direct rent payments, our approach in cases of domestic abuse, the

:54:53. > :54:57.process for housing benefit. There were also informational issues that

:54:58. > :54:59.came up. The response to my honourable friend for Gloucester, I

:55:00. > :55:03.committed to publishing the roll-out schedule for the landlord portal and

:55:04. > :55:06.trusted Partner status. The question was put by the Honourable lady from

:55:07. > :55:12.Newport about staffing levels. In fact, we are increasing, not

:55:13. > :55:15.decreasing our staffing levels to come home at the roll-out of

:55:16. > :55:20.Universal Credit. The honourable lady for Oxford East asked about the

:55:21. > :55:24.process for third party representatives acting for clients

:55:25. > :55:29.and I do recognise that we can do more in providing clear information

:55:30. > :55:32.on matters such as these and I commit to doing so. As well as

:55:33. > :55:34.reporting to the house as a whole, we are also making sure that

:55:35. > :55:40.additional information is provided to members as it comes to their

:55:41. > :55:48.constituency and we are running a number of sessions in the house for

:55:49. > :55:51.both members and others. For the final intervention. I am grateful to

:55:52. > :55:55.the Minister forgiving way. Those of us who've had some experience of

:55:56. > :55:59.working within Government and rolling out policies nor that just

:56:00. > :56:03.because a policy change of policy is announced doesn't mean it is

:56:04. > :56:10.actually happening on the ground and I would urge him to accept the call

:56:11. > :56:15.for a pause to guarantee that the changes he says he is making are

:56:16. > :56:19.actually filtering through on the ground. That is a problem. It is not

:56:20. > :56:23.a new problem within Government, but if he pauses, some of these changes

:56:24. > :56:29.can be made so people's lives don't have to supper. I am grateful to the

:56:30. > :56:31.honourable lady for that intervention and of course we

:56:32. > :56:34.monitor those things constantly, and as I was saying earlier, this is

:56:35. > :56:44.also one of the reasons why we do have a number of three scheduled

:56:45. > :56:49.pauses in the sequence. It is a fundamental reform. It is a lot of

:56:50. > :56:52.change. It is a new benefit. It is a new IT system. It is a new

:56:53. > :56:58.operational system. We evolved new ways of working with partners and

:56:59. > :57:01.yes that does bring it with it some challenges. But implementation is at

:57:02. > :57:07.a very measured pace, spreading over nine years from 2013 two 2022. In

:57:08. > :57:14.the next four months, Universal Credit will move from covering 8% of

:57:15. > :57:19.the benefit recipient population to 10%. This careful, gradual approach

:57:20. > :57:25.means we can continually adjust and evolve the programme. You can see

:57:26. > :57:31.that enhancements like the landlord portal and trusted partners in the

:57:32. > :57:35.refreshed approach to advances and many, many other back of house and

:57:36. > :57:39.systems changes. You see this effect coming through in the huge

:57:40. > :57:43.improvements in the first time accuracy. I apologise to both of the

:57:44. > :57:47.Right Honourable lady standing up, but I want to bring my remarks to a

:57:48. > :57:54.conclusion because I know that many people on both sides of the house,

:57:55. > :57:59.probably including them, intend to contribute to the debate. Mr

:58:00. > :58:02.Speaker, with every phase and in every respect, the development of

:58:03. > :58:07.Universal Credit has been all about enhancing the way it helps you get

:58:08. > :58:11.into work and get on in work. Already, Universal Credit is

:58:12. > :58:16.transforming lives and we want more families to benefit from the

:58:17. > :58:21.satisfaction from the self esteem and from the financial security that

:58:22. > :58:28.comes from progressing to a job, a better job, and a career. Neal Gray.

:58:29. > :58:32.Then she very much, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to

:58:33. > :58:35.debate Universal Credit again today and well done to the Shadow Work and

:58:36. > :58:40.Pensions Secretary for securing the debate today. In my two and a half

:58:41. > :58:45.years in this Parliament, I have become accustomed to some big events

:58:46. > :58:49.happening, historical events, such is the nature of politics we are

:58:50. > :58:52.living through now. Last Wednesday, we witness something very rare. Not

:58:53. > :58:56.only a Government losing an opposition Day motion, the first

:58:57. > :58:59.time that has happened for over 40 years, but a Government refusing to

:59:00. > :59:04.concede an engine order to try to win the vote and then the speaker

:59:05. > :59:07.giving as close to a rebuke as is possible for the church to give the

:59:08. > :59:12.Government benches and I pay tribute in that regard to you, Mr Speaker.

:59:13. > :59:17.So I do not believe this Government would have had any intention of

:59:18. > :59:21.respecting last week's debate, last week's vote, or indeed the

:59:22. > :59:25.conventions of this house, where it not for you challenging their

:59:26. > :59:28.behaviour in such a way. But all the house's statement at business

:59:29. > :59:31.questions on Thursday was apparently to be the sum total of the

:59:32. > :59:36.Government's response to the defeat and it no indication of when the

:59:37. > :59:39.Secretary of State would return to the house following the debate, nor

:59:40. > :59:43.did she say which areas of concern the Government was looking to act

:59:44. > :59:46.on. The vigour of the Government last week encapsulated perfectly its

:59:47. > :59:50.approach to difficult decisions. Those decisions may be difficult

:59:51. > :59:52.because of divisions within the Cabinet. They could be difficult

:59:53. > :59:57.because of divisions within the Conservative Party and also divisive

:59:58. > :00:04.amongst our constituents, and this is a Government paralysed by fear,

:00:05. > :00:07.indecision, and a complete lack of strategic direction. It is a

:00:08. > :00:11.Government desperate to deflect, to fair, and delay. And I say that

:00:12. > :00:15.because I think the Government has basically accepted that it needs to

:00:16. > :00:19.do something to key areas which are completely undermining Universal

:00:20. > :00:22.Credit, but rather than accept a partial solution which was offered

:00:23. > :00:26.to them on a plate by a group of Tory backbenchers ahead of the

:00:27. > :00:30.debate last week, Beit defected and deferred, caught up in indecision.

:00:31. > :00:34.They threw up red herrings on the telephone that is tax charges, but

:00:35. > :00:39.refused to do anything substantive on the key policy areas. Every move

:00:40. > :00:43.is a desperate calculation to fight the fires of that particular day.

:00:44. > :00:48.Strong leadership would have seen action last week. Strong leadership

:00:49. > :00:52.would have accepted the parliamentary arithmetic, would have

:00:53. > :00:56.accepted the mood of the house and constituents and accepted it needed

:00:57. > :01:00.to act. Lastly, we saw the desperate weakness of a Government unwilling

:01:01. > :01:04.to defend its flagship social security policy in the lobbies, and

:01:05. > :01:10.what must be a near unprecedented scenario. They completely miss read

:01:11. > :01:13.the house. They had no idea decided to ignore the fact that the main

:01:14. > :01:16.opposition parties were working together to force a vote on

:01:17. > :01:20.Wednesday night. They completely miss read the strength of feeling in

:01:21. > :01:25.the house against credit in its current form and they completely

:01:26. > :01:37.miss read the way you, Mr Speaker, would react to that defeat and the

:01:38. > :01:41.Government's sleekit abstention. They instead had to content with a

:01:42. > :01:45.defeat and an embarrassing rebuke from the chair. And even now, after

:01:46. > :01:49.the Government is dragged to the house, we still get nothing. I feel

:01:50. > :01:52.for the minister who has been forced to substitute the Secretary of State

:01:53. > :01:56.because he has been asked today to defend the indefensible. Mr Speaker,

:01:57. > :01:59.I am hoping events of the last week will have offered some steel to

:02:00. > :02:04.those on the Government backbenchers who pushed hard for reform and

:02:05. > :02:07.accepted the three line whip from the Government to abstain. This is a

:02:08. > :02:13.Government on the run. Now is the time to force on the changes we have

:02:14. > :02:19.all been pushing for. Fixing the six-week wait. Fixing the advance

:02:20. > :02:22.payment being alone. All of this would be a start, but the biggest

:02:23. > :02:26.win would be for the Government just to acknowledge the glaringly

:02:27. > :02:30.obvious, the evidence in front of their eyes, and admit that Universal

:02:31. > :02:36.Credit, as it stands, is failing those it should be helping. I thank

:02:37. > :02:44.the member for giving way. The honourable member put a very good

:02:45. > :02:47.question and asked whether the member was anticipating that the

:02:48. > :02:50.overall pot would increase. She said she would come to it but she did not

:02:51. > :02:55.take the intervention and you didn't answer the question as to whether

:02:56. > :03:02.the overall increase... What is the SNP's on that? That is not a

:03:03. > :03:06.question for me. That is for the Labour Party. This Government should

:03:07. > :03:09.accept the proposals already outlined which would garner the

:03:10. > :03:14.support of the house. But the Government should be going further

:03:15. > :03:16.and we all know it. With the honourable gentleman not agree that

:03:17. > :03:19.the Government is making choices it would be sensible for them to choose

:03:20. > :03:24.to prioritise the incomes of low income families instead of which and

:03:25. > :03:28.prioritising tax cuts and raising the tax threshold, they are

:03:29. > :03:31.prioritising the interests of higher earners will stop does he not agree

:03:32. > :03:36.that there is scope to improve allowances in Universal Credit and

:03:37. > :03:39.help those who are in the least? I absolutely agree with the honourable

:03:40. > :03:43.member and it is something I am going to be coming onto in my speech

:03:44. > :03:47.shortly. But they should be reviewing the cuts to the work

:03:48. > :03:50.allowances, which is acting as a disincentive to work, and making

:03:51. > :03:52.work pay less. They should be reviewing the cuts to housing

:03:53. > :03:56.benefit, which is driving up their careers and something which will be

:03:57. > :04:01.touched on in tomorrow afternoon's debate for sure and they should be

:04:02. > :04:05.reviewing the cuts which is denying those who need it most. They should

:04:06. > :04:08.be fully reviewing and then scrapping the disgusting sanctioning

:04:09. > :04:12.policy which could have cost the life of my constituent Mr Morand and

:04:13. > :04:17.has cost the lives of others. It is something which is the subject of an

:04:18. > :04:20.excellent paper by Sharon Wright of Glasgow University and Peter Dwyer

:04:21. > :04:24.of the University of York in the Journal of poverty and social

:04:25. > :04:29.justice. The Government currently hides behind the illusion of

:04:30. > :04:33.Universal Credit helping those into work and making work pay. They

:04:34. > :04:37.actually believe Universal Credit is working on this basis. Of course,

:04:38. > :04:41.the Secretary of State 's's own figures show that the 2% of job

:04:42. > :04:45.centres will Universal Credit has been ruled out, there has been a

:04:46. > :04:51.mere 3% uplift in employment rates. I give way. We often speaking very

:04:52. > :04:54.similar debates and I understand his passion for supporting some of the

:04:55. > :04:58.most vulnerable people in society and yet when I have been on visits

:04:59. > :05:00.to the job centres that I have talked to people going through the

:05:01. > :05:09.process, the staff are incredibly passionate about it. They are. It is

:05:10. > :05:14.a time for all members to listen to the positives as well as the

:05:15. > :05:18.challengers. I thank the former Minister for his intervention. I

:05:19. > :05:23.said last week and I say again, we agree with the premise of Universal

:05:24. > :05:27.Credit, the ruling together, one payment and the number of benefits

:05:28. > :05:31.that it does, in simplifying the system, but what has happened by

:05:32. > :05:36.successive chancellors and success of Work and Pensions Secretary is,

:05:37. > :05:39.of which there have been too many in recent years, is that the powers and

:05:40. > :05:43.the benefit has been sliced to nothing, and the issues that are

:05:44. > :05:49.currently being faced by Universal Credit are ones that are the cause

:05:50. > :05:53.of governments cutting and cutting again the areas that Universal

:05:54. > :05:59.Credit is supposed to be helping people.

:06:00. > :06:04.If he thinks it has been cut so much, given that there is a

:06:05. > :06:10.government in Scotland with tax-raising powers, he put his money

:06:11. > :06:14.in his pocket, to add extra relief north of the border? The honourable

:06:15. > :06:20.member is better than just to regurgitate the whips

:06:21. > :06:27.interventions... He is far better than that. Also, he knows very well

:06:28. > :06:31.that the Scottish Government is responsible for 15% of Social

:06:32. > :06:35.Security. And the Scottish Government has mitigated over ?400

:06:36. > :06:42.million worth of Tory cuts already. How much more does he expect the SNP

:06:43. > :06:50.Scottish Government to have to clear up the Tory government's mess. I

:06:51. > :06:54.thank the arable friend for giving way, does he recognise the figures

:06:55. > :07:00.that show is 17% increase in rent arrears, a 15% increase in people

:07:01. > :07:06.getting into debt with loan sharks and 87% increase in crisis grants

:07:07. > :07:10.from the Scottish Government in Universal Credit areas? -- the

:07:11. > :07:15.honourable friend. The evidence is there for the government to see. Is

:07:16. > :07:20.the 3% uplift in employment rates really worth the rise and poverty in

:07:21. > :07:26.these areas? Or a crippling rise in rent arrears or a disgusting rise in

:07:27. > :07:32.food bank use? No date on the quality of jobs they are managing to

:07:33. > :07:36.pick up but it forces claimants to sign conditionality forms which

:07:37. > :07:39.force them to take any jobs, regardless of their security or

:07:40. > :07:44.suitability and a threat of sanctioning is forcing them to take

:07:45. > :07:55.it. We know that there is a rising prevalence in low-paid work which is

:07:56. > :07:59.harming UK's productivity rates, destitution forces people to take

:08:00. > :08:06.sustainable and precarious work. I'm grateful for him giving way. My

:08:07. > :08:10.constituent, the disability students Officer at Heriot Watt University

:08:11. > :08:14.pointed out that while under employment support allowance, a

:08:15. > :08:18.disabled person can become a student and continue to claim ESA which will

:08:19. > :08:22.not happen and Universal Credit. Does he agree that it's another

:08:23. > :08:27.loophole the government should close in the interest of disabled

:08:28. > :08:33.students, FAI baby instruction of the house last week to pause the

:08:34. > :08:41.roll-out of Universal Credit -- if they obey the instruction? We all

:08:42. > :08:45.agree that employment as a route out of poverty but what hope do we give

:08:46. > :08:49.to those who are employed and living in poverty? What hope does this

:08:50. > :08:53.government give them as they are currently participating in their

:08:54. > :08:58.only route out of poverty, and yet they still live below the line? Cuts

:08:59. > :09:01.to Universal Credit makes people worse off, and in East Lothian, more

:09:02. > :09:09.than half of the local citizens advice bureau have an average of ?45

:09:10. > :09:14.per week and a third of clients are better off but by only 34p per week.

:09:15. > :09:20.We know from the resolution foundation that this decade from

:09:21. > :09:24.2010 is to be the worst for wage growth in 210 years. Not since the

:09:25. > :09:32.Napoleonic wars have we had it so bad. I'm grateful for the honourable

:09:33. > :09:36.member in giving way. In those calculations, is he including the

:09:37. > :09:41.amount, the 1.3 million people, who do not have to pay tax any more, or

:09:42. > :09:46.the ?1000 that goes straight into the pockets of those owning the

:09:47. > :09:55.least in this country? The tax cuts to the threshold do not help those

:09:56. > :10:01.on the lowest incomes. They don't, it is not the best direction of the

:10:02. > :10:06.funds. If they can go into helping people who were in receipt of work

:10:07. > :10:13.allowances, it would far better assess those on low incomes.

:10:14. > :10:17.Universal Credit isn't making work pay, it makes people pay the price

:10:18. > :10:23.for austerity cuts. Mr Speaker, if the government is serious about

:10:24. > :10:27.Universal Credit and is serious about tackling inequality, they need

:10:28. > :10:35.to get serious about fixing the major problems with Universal

:10:36. > :10:45.Credit. Holland has spoken, it's time the government acted upon this.

:10:46. > :10:49.-- the government has spoken. There will be a four minute limit on each

:10:50. > :10:57.backbench speech with immediate effect. It's good to have that

:10:58. > :11:02.discipline behind one. Let me begin with a process point, if I may. I

:11:03. > :11:07.listened carefully to what the shadow secretary of state said, she

:11:08. > :11:12.accurately quoted what the house decided last week but outside of the

:11:13. > :11:17.house, I'm afraid the Labour Party is misleading people as it says

:11:18. > :11:21.Parliament voted to pause and fix Universal Credit. The motion last

:11:22. > :11:27.week did no such thing. The reason why I mention that, Mr Speaker, is

:11:28. > :11:35.it's very important as the substance of today's debate and the

:11:36. > :11:39.government's response, the house asked the government to pause but

:11:40. > :11:47.did not provide a single reason in that motion about why the government

:11:48. > :11:52.should pause. Actually, I was at the debate last week. I spoke in it. The

:11:53. > :11:56.honourable lady set out some reasons but the motion, what the government

:11:57. > :12:00.has been asked to respond to, contained not a single reason why

:12:01. > :12:08.the government should pause Universal Credit. I thank my right

:12:09. > :12:12.honourable friend for giving way. Isn't it right that if Her Majesty

:12:13. > :12:18.'s opposition added a couple of words to their motion so it read as

:12:19. > :12:24.follows, that this house calls on the government to pause the roll-out

:12:25. > :12:28.of Universal Credit full-service in January 2018, as was announced in

:12:29. > :12:35.the written statement in November 2016 by the government, it may very

:12:36. > :12:38.well be that we could all agree. I'm grateful for the intervention, the

:12:39. > :12:42.reason I mention it is because I will briefly run through one or two

:12:43. > :12:49.of the points the honourable lady said. She is fond of saying that she

:12:50. > :12:53.completely supports the principle of Universal Credit, and what is

:12:54. > :12:56.implemented but then she goes on to list in your report reasons as to

:12:57. > :13:01.why she fundamentally disagrees with all of the key strands of the

:13:02. > :13:06.benefit. She cannot have it both ways. If she does not want Universal

:13:07. > :13:10.Credit to be implement it, stand up and say so. Do not pretend that you

:13:11. > :13:17.agree with the fundamental principles and then say you disagree

:13:18. > :13:21.with every important aspects of it. Listening carefully to some of the

:13:22. > :13:26.things she said in the debate, let me pick up on some issues as to why

:13:27. > :13:31.I think the fundamental motion last week was not one that I could

:13:32. > :13:36.support. She specifically talked about housing. The minister set out

:13:37. > :13:39.clearly, as the Secretary of State did last week, that if there are

:13:40. > :13:44.Universal Credit recipients with issues in managing their rent, they

:13:45. > :13:52.can arrange to have their landlord pay direct. But I do not think we

:13:53. > :13:55.should patronisingly assume that every person on Universal Credit is

:13:56. > :14:00.incapable of managing their rent. Most of them are perfectly capable

:14:01. > :14:06.of managing their finances and show they should be treated accordingly.

:14:07. > :14:11.-- so they should be treated accordingly. Could he then explained

:14:12. > :14:15.to us why it is that two thirds of private landlords are now expressing

:14:16. > :14:21.reluctance to accept Universal Credit claimants for getting a

:14:22. > :14:25.tendency in the first place? I do not the kit is right to pause the

:14:26. > :14:31.roll-out. What is important, which will take place, is the housing

:14:32. > :14:41.porthole which will enable social housing landlords and to communicate

:14:42. > :14:45.with the Department and tenants where there are issues. It does not

:14:46. > :14:49.give the department the opportunity to deal with the issues raised if we

:14:50. > :14:55.pause it, and to fix them. The minister today has been clear. Let

:14:56. > :15:00.me make progress, I only have a couple of minutes left. He listened

:15:01. > :15:05.to the issues raised and I think he has dealt with them but if we pause,

:15:06. > :15:10.we would not have the opportunity to deal with any of these issues. The

:15:11. > :15:16.shadow Secretary of State... I only have a couple of minutes left. The

:15:17. > :15:20.shadow Secretary of State, I noticed between last week and this week, the

:15:21. > :15:27.list of asks had got considerably longer which is what happens when

:15:28. > :15:32.you do not put them in the motion. She specifically wanted to remove

:15:33. > :15:39.waiting days completely in her speech last week. It has always been

:15:40. > :15:42.a factor in the welfare system. I read her speech carefully, she said

:15:43. > :15:48.she wanted to get rid of a waiting period at the beginning. The reason

:15:49. > :15:53.why is simple. If somebody pulls out of work for a few days, you do not

:15:54. > :15:55.want them putting in a Universal Credit claim. It's always been the

:15:56. > :15:59.case with the benefit system that there has been a waiting period

:16:00. > :16:03.which I think is sensible. The minister is already dealt with cases

:16:04. > :16:07.where somebody needs to be paid more frequently and the Minister has

:16:08. > :16:11.accepted, any Secretary of State accepted last week, I only have a

:16:12. > :16:16.minute left, accepted that the system was not paying fast enough

:16:17. > :16:21.but the recent figures showed the Department sped up how quickly

:16:22. > :16:26.people have paid and refreshed guidance to ensure that there are

:16:27. > :16:32.advanced payments which I think is very sensible. They are not loans

:16:33. > :16:35.but advanced payments. Anyone who owns a salary is familiar with the

:16:36. > :16:39.concept of getting it advanced. Looking at all of the issues the

:16:40. > :16:45.honourable lady raised last week in the debate, the Secretary of State

:16:46. > :16:49.dealt with each and every one of those issues thoroughly in the

:16:50. > :16:54.debate last week, and in the motion which called for a pause, not a

:16:55. > :16:58.single reason was set out as to why the government should do so. The

:16:59. > :17:03.Secretary of State, minister and of the House made it clear that as they

:17:04. > :17:07.make changes to the policy they will be reported to the house and that is

:17:08. > :17:11.why I don't find it surprising that after only three sitting days as my

:17:12. > :17:14.honourable friend the member for North Dorset pointed out, the

:17:15. > :17:21.ministers hadn't come to be house but the Minister set it out clearly

:17:22. > :17:25.and it was debated clearly, and I think people should have confidence

:17:26. > :17:32.in a policy that will get more people into work. I came here to do

:17:33. > :17:36.what I and everyone in this place was elected to do, to debate the

:17:37. > :17:43.issues that affect constituents and vote on them. In a way that we

:17:44. > :17:50.believe is best. To support constituents. 299 votes to zero in

:17:51. > :17:54.favour of posing the full roll-out of Universal Credit, until the

:17:55. > :17:58.problems encountered in the pilot scheme are fixed. Not only did the

:17:59. > :18:02.government forfeit their right to vote, but ignored the result and

:18:03. > :18:10.pretended it is not happening, and burying their heads in the sand. I

:18:11. > :18:14.thank the honourable friend for giving way. There is one thing for

:18:15. > :18:22.the government to ignore members on the side of the house but another

:18:23. > :18:27.thing to ignore organisations like Shelter, the CAB, Gingerbread, the

:18:28. > :18:29.child poverty action group, who are at the forefront of dealing with the

:18:30. > :18:37.chaos of this roll-out of Universal Credit. I certainly would, such is

:18:38. > :18:41.the arrogance. One of the leading social housing providers in my

:18:42. > :18:45.constituency told me that 90% of their tenants, already on the pilot

:18:46. > :18:56.scheme, are behind on their rents. In total, these tenants are over

:18:57. > :19:00.?73,000 in arrears, with averages approximately ?830 each. Tenants

:19:01. > :19:04.have told me of a series of problems. The initial seven-day

:19:05. > :19:08.waiting period is not cover housing costs, the month-long assessment

:19:09. > :19:12.period followed by the seven-day weight to pay money into the bank is

:19:13. > :19:20.putting too many people in debt before they have even started on the

:19:21. > :19:23.scheme, and people are forced to rely on as they wait for their

:19:24. > :19:28.money. The government thinks that this is the best way forward, to

:19:29. > :19:36.plough on regardless. That means that on December 13, when the scheme

:19:37. > :19:40.rolled out in Swansea, I am expecting chaos for too many people.

:19:41. > :19:44.It does not take a mathematician to work out that if you transfer 12

:19:45. > :19:49.days before Christmas and the payments take between 35 and 42 days

:19:50. > :19:52.to appear in your bank account, there will be a lot of Swansea

:19:53. > :19:59.residents in dire straits at the worst possible time. I thank the

:20:00. > :20:02.honourable lady for giving way, she makes a powerful speech. Did she

:20:03. > :20:06.agree with me that if the government had a heart it would put that pause

:20:07. > :20:09.on the roll-out of Universal Credit before Christmas and indeed on other

:20:10. > :20:15.benefit sanctions so that nobody goes without over the Christmas

:20:16. > :20:19.period? I certainly do agree. No money or support services over the

:20:20. > :20:22.festive period means that my most vulnerable constituents are going to

:20:23. > :20:30.be desperate. Where is this government's compassion?

:20:31. > :20:35.She refers to mayhem. Can I just tell her that in my area Universal

:20:36. > :20:38.Credit was ruled out 15 months ago and there are some problems, there

:20:39. > :20:41.is no doubt about it, but it is certainly not mayhem and the

:20:42. > :20:45.measures brought in by the Government in recent weeks will

:20:46. > :20:49.certainly fix the vast majority of those problems, so can I give her

:20:50. > :20:54.some comfort and hopefully her constituents some comfort that this

:20:55. > :20:57.will not be mayhem? I do not agree and I can give you examples from the

:20:58. > :21:01.summer where there was mayhem, even before the system came into

:21:02. > :21:05.operation. How many members on the benches opposite can be so oblivious

:21:06. > :21:10.to the predicament they are putting people in? And will you be quiet and

:21:11. > :21:17.listen to what I've got to say? During the holidays, I became aware

:21:18. > :21:20.of empty shelves in the food banks because mothers could not afford to

:21:21. > :21:23.feed their children. They were relying on free school meals during

:21:24. > :21:27.term time but during the school holidays they had no choice other

:21:28. > :21:31.than to visit food banks. So I decided to do something. I set up a

:21:32. > :21:35.lunch club for local children and I anticipated that me and my team

:21:36. > :21:43.would feed 500 children, and you know how many children I ended up

:21:44. > :21:46.feeding over ten days? 6638. That was the scale of the problem and

:21:47. > :21:50.that was before Universal Credit. So how on earth are constituents going

:21:51. > :21:56.to cope with Christmas, with less money coming in and even greater

:21:57. > :22:00.demand for money going out? Should I start planning Christmas lunch club

:22:01. > :22:03.now because I could ask local companies for donations yet again,

:22:04. > :22:07.or will the Government please open your eyes, look at the situation

:22:08. > :22:11.that you are creating and put a hold on the roll out until the

:22:12. > :22:22.fundamental flaws in this ridiculous Universal Credit are resolved? Kenny

:22:23. > :22:28.Tolhurst. And you, Mr Speaker. Last week, we saw Labour's opposition Day

:22:29. > :22:31.feint on the positive of the roll out of Universal Credit and now we

:22:32. > :22:34.are debating the outcome of the opposition Day debate. Universal

:22:35. > :22:38.Credit was a great leap forward and how benefits are claimed and it is

:22:39. > :22:42.replacing an outdated system which is complex and which I have seen

:22:43. > :22:45.from a own experience in my own constituency discourages people from

:22:46. > :22:49.sometimes working more than 16 hours a week. In many cases, I have had

:22:50. > :22:52.constituents who wanted to work more than 16 hours that they have said it

:22:53. > :22:57.is just not worth the hassle, because if they were to do more than

:22:58. > :23:01.16 hours, over a short period of time they would be affected and this

:23:02. > :23:04.would leave them in financial difficulty with weights for benefits

:23:05. > :23:09.being reinstated. Universal Credit will ensure that people are better

:23:10. > :23:12.off in work and will make it far easier for constituents who want to

:23:13. > :23:16.work more hours to gradually increase their hours and to be

:23:17. > :23:22.better off than to be able to do so without worrying about the impact.

:23:23. > :23:26.It is a gradual roll-out over nine years, living from 8% of pay up to

:23:27. > :23:36.10% and all new claimants. The number of people on Universal Credit

:23:37. > :23:44.as the summer was 590,000 230,000. Nearly 40% of which are in work. The

:23:45. > :23:47.implementation is always difficult. When you're moving from a compact

:23:48. > :23:51.system to a more simple one, there will always be things which will

:23:52. > :23:54.crop up which the Government then works to address. This is shown by

:23:55. > :24:02.the very fact that Government are doing a gradual roll-out. The

:24:03. > :24:05.figures which you mention, did you know that the honourable lady for

:24:06. > :24:10.Swansea East said that there was mayhem before the Universal Credit

:24:11. > :24:15.was ruled out? I'm slightly puzzled by that because it is a gradual

:24:16. > :24:17.process. I would like to thank my honourable friend forgiving way and

:24:18. > :24:23.I think she raises an extremely important point and I think that is

:24:24. > :24:27.showing some inconsistencies in the opposition's argument against

:24:28. > :24:31.Universal Credit. This is shown by the very fact that the Government

:24:32. > :24:35.are doing the gradual roll-out, so that testing can take place and that

:24:36. > :24:41.Government are able to modify and limitation based on what it has

:24:42. > :24:44.learned in by the experience of practical implementation of the

:24:45. > :24:47.scheme. It is clear and ministers have been very clear that claimants

:24:48. > :24:54.who cannot afford to wait are able to get advances up front. These

:24:55. > :24:59.payments are made straightaway. It is just irresponsible scaremongering

:25:00. > :25:07.by the opposition in an attempt to frighten. Negatively trying to

:25:08. > :25:17.betray Universal Credit system as a bad thing. Rather than talking about

:25:18. > :25:20.the benefits. Helping people move into work and assist in making it

:25:21. > :25:24.easier for claimants in the long run, which is a good move forwards

:25:25. > :25:31.in how benefits are delivered to the people that need them. Claimants who

:25:32. > :25:34.need these advance payments because of the particular circumstances will

:25:35. > :25:39.receive advance payments within five days. Which is actually quicker than

:25:40. > :25:43.those claimants who are applying for the old jobseeker's allowance. I

:25:44. > :25:51.will give way to the honourable gentleman. Does she recognise that

:25:52. > :25:54.these have to be paid back? Once Universal Credit is received, which

:25:55. > :25:59.means that someone is already spiralling into debt. I thank the

:26:00. > :26:02.honourable lady for her intervention but there is an assumption that

:26:03. > :26:12.everyone on Universal Credit would already be in debt, which I refused.

:26:13. > :26:15.But for Labour to suggest that this Government want to deliberately

:26:16. > :26:21.disadvantaged people when they need help from the state is quite frankly

:26:22. > :26:26.appalling. I am also amazed, Mr Speaker, by the indignation of the

:26:27. > :26:30.opposition by the outcome of last Wednesday's debate, of which it was

:26:31. > :26:34.just that. An opportunity for the opposition to debate an issue which

:26:35. > :26:39.they wanted to bring forward to the house. However, over the last few

:26:40. > :26:43.weeks, since returning from recess, we have had some major pieces of

:26:44. > :26:46.legislation moving through the house, actual legislation from

:26:47. > :26:53.Government, but in these most important debates where were the

:26:54. > :26:57.opposition? Why were they not in the chamber, debating and questioning

:26:58. > :27:00.the Government, notably the Finance Bill? You would have expected the

:27:01. > :27:10.opposition to be doing exactly that. Or was it not... The committee on

:27:11. > :27:14.Finance didn't even want to its full allotted time, Mr Speaker, in the

:27:15. > :27:17.house. This is quite unbelievable since the opposition have complained

:27:18. > :27:30.not only about not having enough time to debate the important issues,

:27:31. > :27:33.but we have debated in this house. And again, where were the

:27:34. > :27:37.opposition? If the Labour Party truly believed what they were

:27:38. > :27:41.saying, that they do indeed support the principle of Universal Credit

:27:42. > :27:47.they would be working with Government to make sure the roll-out

:27:48. > :27:53.is a success rather than scaremongering and trying to block

:27:54. > :28:02.the good reform to our benefit system. Jack dreamy. Mr Speaker,

:28:03. > :28:06.disaster looms for tens of thousands of Birmingham citizens. With

:28:07. > :28:11.Universal Credit being rolled out less than a fortnight before

:28:12. > :28:15.Christmas on the 13th of December. Our offices as MPs are besieged with

:28:16. > :28:20.worried claimants, people who have suffered previous changes introduced

:28:21. > :28:24.by the Government, and what is clear is that the Government seem to be

:28:25. > :28:31.oblivious to the pain that they are causing. All too often over the

:28:32. > :28:33.years, shamefully demonising those who are claimants and blundering

:28:34. > :28:39.ahead, learning nothing from the mistakes of the past, even on

:28:40. > :28:42.Universal Credit when there is an agreement in principle that the

:28:43. > :28:47.Government seems determined to get it wrong in practice. But on the

:28:48. > :28:52.issue of demonising, I have to tell a story of Angela, who came to my

:28:53. > :28:55.constituency office and wept for 45 minutes as she poured out the fact

:28:56. > :29:00.that she had left school at 16 and train to be a nurse and met her

:29:01. > :29:04.husband in the NHS, got married, but their own home, had three kids, but

:29:05. > :29:08.sadly two of the three were disabled and the eldest was severely

:29:09. > :29:15.disabled. She said about how she was feeding Scotty on one location and

:29:16. > :29:18.then she said she saw on the television I speak about shirkers

:29:19. > :29:23.and strivers. Three weeks later, what started was a whispering

:29:24. > :29:27.campaign against. Two neighbours in particular saying, "Why has she got

:29:28. > :29:33.a car on benefits and we haven't?" Ultimately, what it culminated in,

:29:34. > :29:39.kids listen to their parents. She was out with Scotty in his

:29:40. > :29:42.wheelchair and twice in a period of three weeks, local youths threw

:29:43. > :29:47.stones at him. And I thought to myself then and I think to myself

:29:48. > :29:52.today, "Does the Government not begin to understand the pain it has

:29:53. > :30:01.caused over the years?" Leading the changes in relation to prove the

:30:02. > :30:07.move from -- in the changes to disability benefit. They went ahead

:30:08. > :30:11.with a change would have catastrophic consequences. The owner

:30:12. > :30:16.in my constituency, who fought for her life and tried to keep working

:30:17. > :30:21.but ultimately she got her personal independence payment two weeks

:30:22. > :30:25.before she finally died of breast cancer. Zach was in a wheelchair

:30:26. > :30:29.from three months old and assessed and reassessed and finally got a

:30:30. > :30:35.personal independence payment on the 17th of July, two years ago. He died

:30:36. > :30:38.on the 3rd of August. Does the Government not recognise that on

:30:39. > :30:41.this and so many other fronts like what is happening to those suffering

:30:42. > :30:48.from motor neurone disease who are desperate to secure lifetime award

:30:49. > :30:52.is not to be constantly reassessed as in a very moving contribution by

:30:53. > :30:59.a man who said in an event here, "I am going to die. For god sake, why

:31:00. > :31:02.do you keep reassessing me?" And then we have the quarry worker's

:31:03. > :31:07.union attacking people raising issues like this this morning. They

:31:08. > :31:12.say to me, "Most people are not on Universal Credit but have jobs and

:31:13. > :31:15.what their MP to show some sort of encouragement." Actually, many of

:31:16. > :31:20.them do have jobs. We will never cross the road on the opposite side

:31:21. > :31:24.of support for the working poor, the poor and vulnerable. We found that

:31:25. > :31:27.the welfare state, labourer. We believe in a Britain that looks

:31:28. > :31:31.after the poor and the working poor and the disabled and the vulnerable.

:31:32. > :31:35.I am grateful to my friends are giving way on that point of workers

:31:36. > :31:40.who are claiming Universal Credit. In East Lothian, studies have shown

:31:41. > :31:48.that 80% of people who are working saw no change in their income. 18%

:31:49. > :31:54.increase on average of ?18 31, but 45% of people in works for a fall in

:31:55. > :32:00.net income of ?39 99 a week. What the honourable gentleman does in

:32:01. > :32:03.speaking about real life experience in our constituencies is to bring on

:32:04. > :32:06.that which the Government seems oblivious to. I sometimes question

:32:07. > :32:14.what planet does this Government live on? So we are determined. We

:32:15. > :32:17.are determined that we will get it right and that is why unashamedly

:32:18. > :32:22.led by a Shadow Secretary of State we have been fighting to achieve

:32:23. > :32:25.precisely that. I stress again the principle of Universal Credit, there

:32:26. > :32:30.is agreement across this house, but unless you get it right then the

:32:31. > :32:35.pain will continue and be magnified for tens and hundreds of thousands

:32:36. > :32:41.of people at the next stages. So can I do say this to ministers in

:32:42. > :32:45.relation specifically to Birmingham? Please do not press ahead with the

:32:46. > :32:50.introduction on the 13th of December. Come and listen to some of

:32:51. > :32:55.the heartbreaking cases, people in tears in our constituency offices,

:32:56. > :32:58.saying "What are we going to do over Christmas?" Come and listen to

:32:59. > :33:03.landlords say they will never again let to tenants of Universal Credit.

:33:04. > :33:08.Hear first-hand the real-life experience of the consequences of

:33:09. > :33:17.your actions. Have you no heart? Pause Universal Credit and then get

:33:18. > :33:22.it right. Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is the second time in less than

:33:23. > :33:27.a week but I have stood and spoken in favour of the Government's plan

:33:28. > :33:31.to roll out Universal Credit. Last week, I and my colleagues listened

:33:32. > :33:35.as we were lectured by the opposition. Time and again, it was

:33:36. > :33:43.inferred that because on these benches at election time we blue

:33:44. > :33:46.rosettes, we didn't hear the same difficult tragic cases in our

:33:47. > :33:52.surgeries, didn't work just as hard for those vulnerable individuals who

:33:53. > :33:58.desperately need our help, didn't care as much for the welfare of our

:33:59. > :34:01.constituents. In fact, some even questioned and I heard it again

:34:02. > :34:05.today, whether we were proud that we were pushing our constituents into

:34:06. > :34:13.poverty. And you know what? I find that grossly offensive. I will not

:34:14. > :34:16.give way. I am proud to be a Conservative member of Parliament. I

:34:17. > :34:20.am proud to sit on these benches with colleagues who either worked

:34:21. > :34:24.just as hard, care just as much for the people they represent, as any

:34:25. > :34:29.other member in this house. B clear today, nobody in this place has a

:34:30. > :34:38.monopoly compassion. Socialists, nationalists, liberal, Conservative

:34:39. > :34:45.and green, we are all here first and foremost to serve our constituents.

:34:46. > :34:50.And to infer other to indulge in wild, frankly insulting,

:34:51. > :34:53.generalisations does not help our constituents, does not inform the

:34:54. > :34:57.debate, and does very little for the perception of this place out there.

:34:58. > :35:04.And neither does the group to disco mongering we heard in too much of

:35:05. > :35:07.last week's debate, too infer that because this Government is a Tory

:35:08. > :35:17.Government doesn't care or is it listening to the concerns of people

:35:18. > :35:19.is unfair and simply untrue. Last week, the Secretary of State

:35:20. > :35:23.announced that all DWP claims would be free by the end of the year. A

:35:24. > :35:25.couple of weeks before that, the Secretary of State announced that a

:35:26. > :35:33.more proactive approach would be taken with regard to making

:35:34. > :35:37.available advance payments. I thank my fellow member of the DWP working

:35:38. > :35:42.committee for giving way. Does he agree with me its leaves the issue

:35:43. > :35:45.of the third-party providers. Is he concerned as I am that there are

:35:46. > :35:51.constituent in Glasgow with telephone bills of ?100 using these

:35:52. > :35:57.third-party providers, who are trying to phone help for DWP. I do

:35:58. > :36:00.agree that the question has to be asked about third-party providers

:36:01. > :36:03.and I join him in questioning the government on that. I know the

:36:04. > :36:06.Secretary of State was listening to the work and pensions committee last

:36:07. > :36:09.week when I and other members expressed concern around the amount

:36:10. > :36:13.and quality of data being gathered on advanced payments. None of these

:36:14. > :36:17.actions of a government that is not listening, this debate is about

:36:18. > :36:22.whether we should pause the roll-out of Universal Credit or whether we

:36:23. > :36:26.should press cautiously ahead, learning and evolving and testing

:36:27. > :36:31.and refining the system as we continue to deliver this important

:36:32. > :36:33.and life changing benefit to the people of the UK. In my opinion, not

:36:34. > :36:47.only should we, but we must. Having had a meeting with one of my

:36:48. > :36:51.Snow Hill citizens advice bureau in my constituency, they expressed

:36:52. > :36:58.concerns on the roll-out of the full service. I agree that we need to

:36:59. > :37:02.simplify our benefit system. However, Universal Credit isn't

:37:03. > :37:07.working for most of its claimants. The six-week waiting period is

:37:08. > :37:13.pushing claimants further into debt, and with some of these claimants

:37:14. > :37:17.facing further delays. If they have complicated circumstances, this is

:37:18. > :37:20.forcing claimants to borrow money, rely on food banks and face eviction

:37:21. > :37:26.whilst waiting for their first payment. Although the full service

:37:27. > :37:29.hasn't been implemented into my constituency as yet, the shocking

:37:30. > :37:35.cases I have heard from the citizens advice bureau and other

:37:36. > :37:41.organisations have prompted me to speak out. I agree with many of my

:37:42. > :37:44.colleagues that the government should pause the roll-out until a

:37:45. > :37:55.system that is fully functioning has been put in place. Douglas Ross.

:37:56. > :38:00.Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. You will be aware

:38:01. > :38:05.that I received much criticism for missing the Universal Credit debate

:38:06. > :38:11.last week. So I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this

:38:12. > :38:15.week's, six days on from the last time we discussed it. I do however

:38:16. > :38:22.know the honourable member for Falkirk is not here in the chamber

:38:23. > :38:30.on this of all days. Or Paisley. Where is Paisley? My constituency

:38:31. > :38:34.will see the full roll-out of Universal Credit in April next year,

:38:35. > :38:39.so I followed the debate very closely. I was encouraged that

:38:40. > :38:43.members across the house agreed that the general principles of Universal

:38:44. > :38:47.Credit are correct. We heard it from government benches and all the

:38:48. > :38:52.opposition parties. I also noted the final vote, which was held last

:38:53. > :38:56.Wednesday. As my right honourable friend the member for Forest of Dean

:38:57. > :39:02.alluded to, that result is different to what is Labour are speaking about

:39:03. > :39:05.today. The shadow... Sorry, the opposition, the Leader of the

:39:06. > :39:10.Opposition, tweeted earlier today how Labour had secured an emergency

:39:11. > :39:14.debate on why the government wasn't respecting parliament's approach to,

:39:15. > :39:19.and I quote, pause and fix Universal Credit. That was not the vote in

:39:20. > :39:23.parliament held last week. Yet that is what the leader of the Labour

:39:24. > :39:29.Party is suggesting we are speaking about just now. That is not the

:39:30. > :39:33.case. While there are issues with Universal Credit, and I will come to

:39:34. > :39:37.these in a moment, we also have to acknowledge the benefits. Recent

:39:38. > :39:43.data shows that compared to the old welfare system people on Universal

:39:44. > :39:47.Credit are more likely to find work, people on Universal Credit are more

:39:48. > :39:51.likely to stay in work, and people on Universal Credit are more likely

:39:52. > :39:55.to earn more money in work. I'm sorry, I will simply say that

:39:56. > :39:58.members... Excuse me, I'm sorry, I would simply say to members

:39:59. > :40:02.opposite, you were critical I wasn't here to represent my constituents

:40:03. > :40:08.views, therefore I think during my four minute I will use that

:40:09. > :40:12.opportunity to speak up. As I was saying, there are benefits to this

:40:13. > :40:16.system and it is hardly surprising, given this is a simplified system.

:40:17. > :40:20.I'm also grateful the government is clearly listening to the concerns

:40:21. > :40:25.raised by members across the house, as we saw with the decision on the

:40:26. > :40:29.cost of the helpline. Now I'd also like to imagine, this is an SO 24

:40:30. > :40:35.debate and the last time we had one in this chamber was about another

:40:36. > :40:39.government 's decision not to vote. The honourable gentleman for Perth

:40:40. > :40:42.and North Perthshire said, and I quote, the key thing is that nobody

:40:43. > :40:47.expects them, the government, to change their policy or direction on

:40:48. > :40:51.certain issues, just because you get beat on a Labour Party opposition

:40:52. > :40:58.demotion, that is the last thing people would expect. -- Day motion.

:40:59. > :41:00.While the shadow leader of the house might not expect things to change,

:41:01. > :41:04.I'm encouraged the government is looking to the concerns from across

:41:05. > :41:09.the house. Those of us on these benches as well as those of us on

:41:10. > :41:12.the opposition benches. The responses I've received from the

:41:13. > :41:15.Secretary of State and ministers to constituency queries I've raised

:41:16. > :41:19.have been both constructive and helpful. By dealing with these

:41:20. > :41:22.issues in this way we can ensure Universal Credit, which is accepted

:41:23. > :41:26.across the political spectrum, with agreement in principle, does not

:41:27. > :41:35.only work for everyone, but delivers for everyone as well. Thank you, Mr

:41:36. > :41:39.Speaker, for allowing this debate today, and for your comments on

:41:40. > :41:46.whether or not this debate should be held. Can I also thank the

:41:47. > :41:53.honourable member for old East and Saddleworth for bringing this to the

:41:54. > :41:56.chamber today. -- double. She said today we cannot wait and she is

:41:57. > :42:01.right, we can't wait any longer for the government to listen, finally,

:42:02. > :42:05.to the pleas being made. The government had not only ignored

:42:06. > :42:13.Parliament last week, they've been ignoring calls since the pilot

:42:14. > :42:18.programme in Inverness and Highland councils since 2013. Between

:42:19. > :42:22.2013-2017 have been ministerial meetings, letters, questions,

:42:23. > :42:26.debates, pleading for action. The member for Swansea East talked about

:42:27. > :42:31.the problems being evident before the full service roll-out. That is

:42:32. > :42:36.exactly the case we found in Inverness. We've been pleading for

:42:37. > :42:42.action. The honourable member for Birmingham Erdington spoke about the

:42:43. > :42:47.people who came to his constituency surgeries in tears. I can reflect

:42:48. > :42:53.that, I've also had many people turn up in tears. The disabled, single

:42:54. > :42:58.mothers, the low waged. I had a constituent who turned up to my

:42:59. > :43:03.office on Friday last week, Mr Speaker, who was in tears, tears of

:43:04. > :43:07.gratitude. She said, in her words, for ending her nightmare with

:43:08. > :43:15.Universal Credit... The situation is, it's not just payments, it's

:43:16. > :43:19.missed payments, delayed payments, wrong payments, communication

:43:20. > :43:24.blockages. Debt by default. Those people who talk about scaremongering

:43:25. > :43:28.or not wanting to acknowledge these are facts... I say to them, and

:43:29. > :43:34.listen to the people experiencing this on a day-to-day basis. The

:43:35. > :43:38.humiliation of being asked to go for capability assessment when they are

:43:39. > :43:47.clearly unable. I'm happy to give way. Thank you. Thank you for giving

:43:48. > :43:52.way. Whilst on that point, can you also agree with me that the impact

:43:53. > :43:58.this is having on disabled people is absolutely tremendous. What we've

:43:59. > :44:00.asked for is that this be paused and rectified instead of rolled out when

:44:01. > :44:05.they know it's currently not working. I completely agree and I'm

:44:06. > :44:10.grateful for the point that the honourable member has made. I've had

:44:11. > :44:17.constituencies had their carers help them, struggled to my constituency

:44:18. > :44:22.surgeries, to tell me about the difficulty they are having with the

:44:23. > :44:27.process. People who are blind, incapable of walking unaided, having

:44:28. > :44:31.to go for work capability assessments. It's humiliating and

:44:32. > :44:34.degrading and it should be paused, those things should be fixed and

:44:35. > :44:39.taken out of the system. I'm happy to give way. Thanks to the

:44:40. > :44:46.honourable gentleman for giving way. I've noted as well, they lauded the

:44:47. > :44:49.idea it would be an online system for processing Universal Credit but

:44:50. > :44:54.my constituency, one of the highest claimant count is in Scotland, 35%

:44:55. > :45:00.of the border have access to Internet. 32% of people with be

:45:01. > :45:04.totally unable to access the system, another 32% will have difficulty in

:45:05. > :45:08.doing so, it's a Kafkaesque nightmare that frustrates and

:45:09. > :45:11.demoralises and depresses the poorest and most vulnerable people.

:45:12. > :45:15.I thank the honourable member for his contribution and completely

:45:16. > :45:21.agree. I've experienced within the constituency I represent exactly the

:45:22. > :45:28.same... I'm going to answer this, the honourable... Stop the clock, I

:45:29. > :45:32.said this before, I'll gently say it again to the benefit of the members,

:45:33. > :45:37.a member can't be expected to give way to a second member whilst

:45:38. > :45:41.responding to an intervention from the first. It's a matter of timing,

:45:42. > :45:44.that's all, I understand the commitment of the honourable lady

:45:45. > :45:50.but we have to do these things in an orderly lay. Thank you Mr Speaker. I

:45:51. > :45:54.was clarifying I've experienced exactly the same thing with

:45:55. > :45:59.constituents in mind that the surgery where mobile phone coverage

:46:00. > :46:04.lags behind, especially in rural parts of my constituency. It's not

:46:05. > :46:10.only is about the inability to get online, there is an inability to get

:46:11. > :46:13.on a bus, to actually get to a job centre to maybe use their facilities

:46:14. > :46:19.as well. Bus service is sometimes don't exist. I commend my honourable

:46:20. > :46:23.friend for the work is done in Inverness, everybody in Parliament

:46:24. > :46:27.admires that. On the point of job centres I noticed the Minister when

:46:28. > :46:32.he was talking was shaking his head. He wants to close three out of four

:46:33. > :46:36.job centres in Glasgow East, does he share my concern on that? I'm

:46:37. > :46:41.grateful for my honourable friend's contribution. I think it beggars

:46:42. > :46:46.belief job centres will be closed during this process. Mr Speaker, I

:46:47. > :46:50.want to move on to some of the effects, I'm going to make progress,

:46:51. > :46:53.thank you. I want to move on to some of the effects that have been

:46:54. > :46:59.happening in our constituency over the period of years, since 2013.

:47:00. > :47:03.This isn't new to us, we've experienced this on a daily basis,

:47:04. > :47:08.over 60% of my casework, and this is coming to everybody by the way, over

:47:09. > :47:11.60% of my casework is made up dealing with Universal Credit

:47:12. > :47:17.issues. It's an incredible drain on the resources of my staff, the job

:47:18. > :47:21.centre plus, who are working as hard as they possibly can. The citizens

:47:22. > :47:25.advice bureau, all the other agencies, and the food banks, who

:47:26. > :47:31.are having to pick up the collateral on this. Food bank use is being

:47:32. > :47:35.driven up by Universal Credit. If anybody on the opposition benches

:47:36. > :47:40.cares to listen, and actually listen to people at the sharp end, they

:47:41. > :47:45.will understand this is a fact of life. By the way, if you are

:47:46. > :47:48.donating to the food bank, please take tinned meat and UHT milk, those

:47:49. > :47:54.are the kinds of things they need desperately at the moment. The chair

:47:55. > :47:58.of welfare Scotland told me in the past week that people are now going

:47:59. > :48:03.to food banks asking for food that doesn't need to be cooked. In order

:48:04. > :48:07.they can save the money and electricity to cook the food. How

:48:08. > :48:14.damning is that? To avoid using energy and running up the bills. I

:48:15. > :48:19.would say to the Minister, who I agree with Mr Speaker, I agree, he

:48:20. > :48:23.is a very gracious gentleman. I've spoken to him across this chamber on

:48:24. > :48:28.this issue many times and I understand that. I would say now is

:48:29. > :48:33.the time to listen to the experts, the people who are actually

:48:34. > :48:38.experiencing this. Now is the time to pause this shambles, this chaotic

:48:39. > :48:43.roll-out, and to take the trouble to fix it, to listen to the people

:48:44. > :48:48.struggling through and against the increasing poverty that they are

:48:49. > :48:52.being subjected to. Please come to my summit in Inverness, listen to

:48:53. > :48:57.the agencies. Listen to those people. Hear what they have to say.

:48:58. > :48:59.And get them involved in the process of sorting this out, so that people

:49:00. > :49:07.can live in dignity. Thank you for calling me to speak in

:49:08. > :49:12.this debate. It's a pleasure to have the opportunity to set out I clearly

:49:13. > :49:16.support Universal Credit and its principal aim of ensuring work

:49:17. > :49:20.always pays. I support Universal Credit, the facts... I will in a few

:49:21. > :49:26.moments. I support Universal Credit, and the fact that it simplifies what

:49:27. > :49:30.was an overly complex and bureaucratic system. Like my

:49:31. > :49:33.honourable friend the member for West Aberdeenshire, I've been

:49:34. > :49:37.disappointed in some of the tone of the debate, both today and last

:49:38. > :49:41.week. Today we had accusations of knowingly pushing people into

:49:42. > :49:47.poverty, last week we have the comment it was a calculated cruelty

:49:48. > :49:50.that the Conservative Party was undertaking. When I raised this

:49:51. > :49:56.point there were cries from the opposition, oh yes it is, what a

:49:57. > :49:59.ridiculous assertion. What utter nonsense. Mr Speaker, you don't have

:50:00. > :50:06.to be best friends with members of opposition parties to know there is

:50:07. > :50:12.no monopoly. One party does not have a monopoly on compassion. No one

:50:13. > :50:18.party has a monopoly on care or concern for the most vulnerable. I

:50:19. > :50:23.know... Many members on this side who are driven into politics for

:50:24. > :50:26.their concern for the most vulnerable in our society. Just as

:50:27. > :50:32.there are in each and every political party. So let's not have

:50:33. > :50:40.any more nonsense about calculated cruelty. Where there is a

:50:41. > :50:45.difference... There is a difference on policy. The title of this debate

:50:46. > :50:51.is not the government's response to last week's debate. What is it and

:50:52. > :50:54.what should it be? Mr Speaker, you of course rightly said in response

:50:55. > :50:59.to a point of order, this motion does matter, it is important, it was

:51:00. > :51:01.passed. You said this, as a matter of fact, however, it is not binding.

:51:02. > :51:09.That is the situation. So what should the Government's

:51:10. > :51:14.response be? Let's look at the substance of it. Those on this side

:51:15. > :51:18.of the house want Universal Credit to succeed, but I fear hearing the

:51:19. > :51:22.debate both today and last week that there are those on the other side

:51:23. > :51:26.that do not want to succeed, and I will be delighted to give way. I am

:51:27. > :51:29.grateful to the honourable member. We have been colleagues on past

:51:30. > :51:31.committees and I have a lot of respect for the way he approaches

:51:32. > :51:36.these matters. When a Government first proposed Universal Credit in

:51:37. > :51:39.2011 it said it would lift 9000 people out of poverty including

:51:40. > :51:42.350,000 children. I agree. A lot of blame which should have been

:51:43. > :51:45.welcomed all around the house. What should the Government's ambitions in

:51:46. > :51:54.terms of the number of people that it expects to be lifted out of

:51:55. > :51:58.policy? -- poverty? I also have respect for the member and I look

:51:59. > :52:01.forward to working with her on committees in the future. I have

:52:02. > :52:05.been told about the Minister will be able to confirm that 250,000

:52:06. > :52:08.additional people will be helped into work as a result of this policy

:52:09. > :52:14.and I want to turn to that point as a result. In my view, this is

:52:15. > :52:19.what... No, I want. This is what the Government's should be. It should be

:52:20. > :52:24.to ensure that Universal Credit succeeds. It should be to ensure

:52:25. > :52:30.that it has that transformative potential to get those people into

:52:31. > :52:35.work and to ensure that they stay in work, but secondly this. To continue

:52:36. > :52:43.to test, to learn, and also to rectify during the gradual roll-out?

:52:44. > :52:46.I will give way. Does he agree with me that there are three things the

:52:47. > :52:50.Government could recommend? The first one is for job centres to make

:52:51. > :52:54.sure they breathe all local councils on what Universal Credit is about

:52:55. > :52:57.and how it is being rolled out. The second one is to encourage job

:52:58. > :53:01.centres to have credit union literature to help avoid people

:53:02. > :53:06.getting into loan sharks and debt problems there? And the third one is

:53:07. > :53:09.to work closely with the largest housing associations like the

:53:10. > :53:12.Romford to establish what best practices between housing

:53:13. > :53:17.associations and the job centre. I am grateful to my honourable friend.

:53:18. > :53:21.If I could say better communication absolutely. But each of us as

:53:22. > :53:24.members of parliament in this place bears responsibility for that

:53:25. > :53:29.communication as well, and having heard the responses, we should be

:53:30. > :53:33.passing goes on to our constituents in good faith and in good time. No,

:53:34. > :53:37.I won't. Interims of what the Government should do, it should be

:53:38. > :53:40.listening and it has listened in respect of telephone numbers. We had

:53:41. > :53:46.that exchange last week. There was an assertion that it was a premium

:53:47. > :53:50.number and the invitation for all telephone calls costing 55p,

:53:51. > :53:53.absolute rubbish. They did not. I am pleased that the Government has

:53:54. > :53:57.listened and in fact the Government has gone further and has indicated

:53:58. > :54:01.that all telephone calls to the Department for Work and Pensions

:54:02. > :54:05.will now be free and I welcome that development in due course. But what

:54:06. > :54:10.the Government should not do is listen to those who want this policy

:54:11. > :54:15.to fail. The system is not perfect, but the Government is right to

:54:16. > :54:19.listen and to learn from its mistakes. But Mr Speaker, it is not

:54:20. > :54:24.cruel to encourage people into work. It is not cruel to support people

:54:25. > :54:28.whilst they are in work or to remove barriers from those in terms of

:54:29. > :54:32.increasing hours or removing disincentives for people getting

:54:33. > :54:39.into work. Arguably, the cruelty was in the old system penalising you if

:54:40. > :54:41.you wanted to take on more hours, leaving people trapped on benefits

:54:42. > :54:48.and not enabling people to reach their full potential. Ruth Cadbury.

:54:49. > :54:52.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Last week, the Government party refused to vote

:54:53. > :54:58.on the opposition Day debate motions seeking a pause on the ball out of

:54:59. > :55:01.Universal Credit. The motion was tabled because Universal Credit is

:55:02. > :55:06.not working in the way it is designed and the way many of us

:55:07. > :55:10.wanted it to. The full roll-out of Universal Credit started in my

:55:11. > :55:13.constituency in April 2016 and it is not working for hundreds of my

:55:14. > :55:18.constituents. I know this because they have told me directly and I

:55:19. > :55:23.have also been told by those trying to help them deal with the

:55:24. > :55:27.consequences and the mess. The CHP, the council, revenue and benefits

:55:28. > :55:30.start. Food bags and community organisations, teachers and school

:55:31. > :55:34.welfare officers. And also those whose income and business depends on

:55:35. > :55:38.regular and reliable payments are also feeling the impact. Council

:55:39. > :55:42.housing associations and landlords but also private landlords, many of

:55:43. > :55:45.whom are small businesses, and childcare providers, also small

:55:46. > :55:49.businesses. And employers are telling me of the stress the delays

:55:50. > :55:54.and nonpayment are having on their staff who are also Universal Credit

:55:55. > :55:56.claimants. Their ability to remain in work because they can't afford

:55:57. > :56:01.childcare place any more of the cost of travel to work. At worst,

:56:02. > :56:05.claimants are losing their home and the only temporary accommodation

:56:06. > :56:15.available at a price on the DWP will pay for is well outside London. Too

:56:16. > :56:19.far to commute for those hoping to keep their jobs. My honourable

:56:20. > :56:22.friend is absolutely right. Does she agree that alongside the delays

:56:23. > :56:25.which are such a huge problem, the system is riddled with errors? The

:56:26. > :56:31.administration of it is not working as it should? If I have time, I will

:56:32. > :56:34.come to that very specific point, but other impacts have emerged as

:56:35. > :56:39.the Government cut the funding for DWP staff which adds to waiting time

:56:40. > :56:45.and errors and many will have seen the article in the Independent from

:56:46. > :56:49.a benefits worker and then there were the cut to in work support

:56:50. > :56:52.undercuts to support for third and subsequent children, and for those

:56:53. > :56:57.of us in areas of very high rent levels like West London, where a

:56:58. > :57:02.small family flat costs around three quarters of an average worker's take

:57:03. > :57:07.home pay, there has been no proper adjustment of the local housing

:57:08. > :57:11.allowance, so against all of this evidence, so clearly set out by MPs

:57:12. > :57:19.on all sides of this house last week, the Government refused to vote

:57:20. > :57:22.and three parliamentary days later, has still made no statement in the

:57:23. > :57:25.house in response to the many important and excellent points made

:57:26. > :57:29.in the debate calling for a pause. The leader of the house committed

:57:30. > :57:33.the Government to responding to the debate and the vote. There is no

:57:34. > :57:36.reason why the Secretary of State or a minister could not have come to

:57:37. > :57:39.this house before now, at least with an initial response, and the

:57:40. > :57:44.Minister did not use the opportunity he had earlier to respond to devote

:57:45. > :57:49.last week. The Government's actions, or rather lack of them, holds

:57:50. > :57:53.Parliament in contempt and those already unable to feed themselves or

:57:54. > :57:57.their children, those who are facing eviction or have lost their jobs and

:57:58. > :58:00.lost their dignity and their hope for the future. A particular example

:58:01. > :58:06.from my casework as to why the Government needs to freeze and that

:58:07. > :58:08.a pause on Universal Credit roll out, to different people at

:58:09. > :58:14.different times, whose Universal Credit was stopped when employers

:58:15. > :58:19.paid them at the end of the outgoing month because of the way the weekend

:58:20. > :58:22.fail or the bank holiday, the DWP stopped their claim because they

:58:23. > :58:25.told them they had been paid double that month so they were not entitled

:58:26. > :58:31.to any Universal Credit. It took weeks and weeks of no money to pay

:58:32. > :58:34.the rent, their childcare places being lost, and they were put at

:58:35. > :58:40.risk of losing their jobs. If Universal Credit claim is terminated

:58:41. > :58:43.by the DWP, even by mistake of the DWP, it cannot be reopened. The

:58:44. > :58:49.claimant is required to make a fresh claim and to use a e-mail address.

:58:50. > :58:53.My honourable friend the member for Oldham East has given how several

:58:54. > :58:57.suggestions for changes and improvements to the Universal Credit

:58:58. > :59:00.system including reducing the six-week wait, reinstating the

:59:01. > :59:04.limited capacity for work element for disabled people, assessing

:59:05. > :59:08.suffered by people on their annual income, reinstating the level of

:59:09. > :59:12.work allowances and reducing top up rates. These are some of the

:59:13. > :59:14.improvements that could be put in, the minister could be considered and

:59:15. > :59:19.could have made some additional comment does now. He didn't. The

:59:20. > :59:23.system needs to be properly resourced, have adequate staff, need

:59:24. > :59:27.adequate IT, local authorities and other landlords need to have access

:59:28. > :59:31.to claim data. The Government, by saying that they want the system to

:59:32. > :59:35.work, are in effect admitting there is a problem. The Government needs

:59:36. > :59:41.to do more than just want this system to work. We need to know when

:59:42. > :59:46.they are going to make it work. Mr Speaker, last week after the debate,

:59:47. > :59:51.you said both this place and what we do here matters very much. I agree

:59:52. > :59:59.with you. And so do my constituents. Jeremy Quinn. I'm conscious that I

:00:00. > :00:03.spoke recently in a debate on the Government's responses to supply day

:00:04. > :00:08.debates and I also spoke in Universal Credit. I recognise that

:00:09. > :00:11.this place repetition is not frowned on and hesitation and deviation are

:00:12. > :00:14.positively encouraged in some quarters but I will do my utmost not

:00:15. > :00:18.to try the patience of the house. But the greatest of respect to the

:00:19. > :00:22.proposers, I do question the title of the debate before us. It asks us

:00:23. > :00:26.to debate the Government's response to the decision of the house on

:00:27. > :00:31.Universal Credit. I know the house knows what the process and proposal

:00:32. > :00:36.means and I am not interested in semantic arguments but it does get

:00:37. > :00:41.to the core of the matter. The Commons expressed the view, as you

:00:42. > :00:44.wisely said, Mr Speaker, it gives its advice to the Government on

:00:45. > :00:48.Universal Credit roll-out, but the house cannot on the basis of an

:00:49. > :00:52.opposition date motion for debate take a decision on a matter of

:00:53. > :00:58.Government policy. As we discussed at length previously and was agreed

:00:59. > :01:01.on both sides of the house, declamatory resolutions proposed for

:01:02. > :01:06.debates on opposition date are not bound by and cannot be binding on

:01:07. > :01:09.the Government. I believe this Constitutional Convention has been

:01:10. > :01:14.entrenched by the fixed in Parliament act of 2011, an act that

:01:15. > :01:17.was supported in the manifesto of both the Labour Party and the

:01:18. > :01:20.Liberal Democrats and when it was last debated three years ago today,

:01:21. > :01:24.the opposition spokesman spoke in favour of the act and said his party

:01:25. > :01:26.continue to support its other is not constitutional requirement for the

:01:27. > :01:29.Government to respond to the resolutions of this nature if that

:01:30. > :01:35.is what the opposition choose to table for their supply day debates.

:01:36. > :01:38.If the Government chooses to have to determine when and exactly how they

:01:39. > :01:42.respond, particularly if there are physical consequences to any actions

:01:43. > :01:45.that they determine. Part of the role of this chamber is to hold the

:01:46. > :01:50.Government to account. And I do not think as a result but the debate

:01:51. > :01:54.last week was in anyway fruitless or a waste of time. We had in the media

:01:55. > :01:58.term in terms of holding the Government to account a Government

:01:59. > :02:01.minister under Secretary of State responding to 17 interventions. In a

:02:02. > :02:04.much shorter speeds as afternoon, my honourable friend reply to 11

:02:05. > :02:08.interventions, being held to account by this house. And I have absolutely

:02:09. > :02:12.no doubt that the talented front bench of the Labour Party will do

:02:13. > :02:16.the utmost all the while to ensure that this Government and the

:02:17. > :02:20.decisions we are making on Universal Credit are drawn to the attention of

:02:21. > :02:23.the electorate. We are comfortable with the roll-out and the time that

:02:24. > :02:26.we are taking and the way that we are presenting this to the country.

:02:27. > :02:28.Ultimately, it will be the electorate that decides. They are

:02:29. > :02:34.seeing the view of the opposition and the Government and that is able

:02:35. > :02:37.role for this house to put across. I'm very comfortable with the

:02:38. > :02:41.decision that our Government has taken an implement these changes.

:02:42. > :02:43.When I was talking to my local job centre, expecting the usual litany

:02:44. > :02:49.of failure that accompanies project on all sides, I got enthusiasm and

:02:50. > :02:54.positivity about the system and how responsive it is. I am pleased in

:02:55. > :02:58.the same way that the Government has already proved itself responsive.

:02:59. > :03:01.50% of new claimant securing advances, the consistent improvement

:03:02. > :03:04.in the timetabling to make payments. There may be other measures the

:03:05. > :03:08.Government can use to bolster the success of the system. They would,

:03:09. > :03:12.however, be wholly wrong to possible the bullet of a system that reduces

:03:13. > :03:17.complexity, increases flexibility, and improves on climate outcomes for

:03:18. > :03:21.the recipients. Mass debate on the subject... I will happily give away.

:03:22. > :03:25.I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. Honourable

:03:26. > :03:30.members opposite have talked a lot about improving working incentives.

:03:31. > :03:35.I won't go over the history but I want to tell him that I have

:03:36. > :03:40.constituents who say things like this, "My own personal position is

:03:41. > :03:45.that of a single parent. Parent of my disabled child. I can't work as

:03:46. > :03:54.he has very high and complex needs. The roll-out of Universal Credit is

:03:55. > :04:02.frankly terrifying. It is no good... " the honourable lady is always

:04:03. > :04:09.eloquent and I take very seriously the question that she poses to

:04:10. > :04:14.drawing the attention to the Treasury benches. I can handle

:04:15. > :04:19.specific constituent issues but what I can say is that looking at the

:04:20. > :04:23.generality of employment under this Government and here I approach my

:04:24. > :04:26.end, the last time we debated Universal Credit was on a day that

:04:27. > :04:33.we appear in climate figures out and I assume it was only because of the

:04:34. > :04:37.timing issue of the day that the opposition front bench were unable

:04:38. > :04:42.to weave them to strongly into their speeches on the day, so they didn't

:04:43. > :04:48.welcome the 52,000 increase in employment in that quarter or prior

:04:49. > :04:54.quarter, and they didn't welcome the 250,000 increase in the number of

:04:55. > :04:58.people employed and the fact that an appointment is at its lowest rate

:04:59. > :05:02.since 1975. There is evidence that the Universal Credit is helping this

:05:03. > :05:08.success story. I urge the Government to continue to debate how the system

:05:09. > :05:10.can work better but I would argued on no circumstances to hold the

:05:11. > :05:18.roll-out. Last week I shared with the hows my

:05:19. > :05:22.own experience of benefit delay as a single parent while it was working

:05:23. > :05:27.as a teacher. Last week we all sat and listened to members around the

:05:28. > :05:30.house voice their concerns and their constituents concerns about the

:05:31. > :05:35.impact of Universal Credit. We've heard some horror stories. Only they

:05:36. > :05:39.weren't stories. Mr Speaker, they were accounts of ordinary working

:05:40. > :05:43.people living through the so-called reforms that this government has

:05:44. > :05:49.insisted on pushing through. The concerns raised on this side of the

:05:50. > :05:55.chamber were echoed by gingerbread, the CABG, by crisis. And indeed by

:05:56. > :05:59.some members opposite. Surely the government doesn't plan to ignore

:06:00. > :06:02.the decision made by this house and carry on regardless. The six-week

:06:03. > :06:09.wait is forcing people into further debt. My constituency of crew has

:06:10. > :06:14.been identified as already being one of the most indebted places in the

:06:15. > :06:19.country with almost 4000 children living in poverty. My constituents

:06:20. > :06:22.literally cannot afford to be subjected to this punitive

:06:23. > :06:27.programme. But the government admits the six-week wait is nothing more

:06:28. > :06:33.than a penny-pinching exercise is to mark how dare they patronise us with

:06:34. > :06:37.their excuses. Do they really expect me to explain to my constituents

:06:38. > :06:44.that the government's six-week wait is there to teach them how to better

:06:45. > :06:47.manage their finances? And we keep hearing the stock defence, the

:06:48. > :06:53.Universal Credit is getting more people into work. What type of work

:06:54. > :06:59.is that? Secure work? Work that pays a real living wage? We all know what

:07:00. > :07:05.lies behind as unemployment figures. Poverty pay and precarious work. The

:07:06. > :07:07.truth is simply that this government's policies are hurting

:07:08. > :07:13.ordinary working families, hurting the poorest and hurting the most

:07:14. > :07:19.vulnerable in our society. Mr Speaker, we were told this policy

:07:20. > :07:24.would make work pay, but the IMF says 3 million working families will

:07:25. > :07:30.be made on average ?2500 a year worse off. Feedback referrals have

:07:31. > :07:34.increased by more than double the national average in areas where

:07:35. > :07:37.Universal Credit is on full service and has been rolled out. The

:07:38. > :07:41.government has finally listen to the Labour Party and stopped ripping off

:07:42. > :07:47.constituents with its premium charge helpline. Now they need to listen to

:07:48. > :07:52.the cause of charities and councils and immediately pause and fix the

:07:53. > :07:57.roll-out of Universal Credit before more people are pushed into debt,

:07:58. > :08:05.hunger and hopelessness. A pause would stop the rapid increase in the

:08:06. > :08:09.number being brought under by their programme. I ask the Minister to

:08:10. > :08:12.outline the response to the many concerns that have been brought to

:08:13. > :08:17.his attention today. This is the last chance for the government to

:08:18. > :08:20.show it does have some heart, that it can see sense, that it respects

:08:21. > :08:26.the decisions made by this house, or else it risks consigning itself to

:08:27. > :08:31.the dustbin of history as a government that lacks compassion,

:08:32. > :08:41.competence and credibility in equal measure. Chris Green. The foundation

:08:42. > :08:46.of any policy should be on its vision on its values. The value, the

:08:47. > :08:50.idea that work should always pay is clearly a good value, so many people

:08:51. > :08:55.across both sides of the house agree with that. The system ought to be

:08:56. > :08:59.easy to understand because those accessing it should be able to

:09:00. > :09:04.access it without any challenges, barriers, in their way. And simplify

:09:05. > :09:08.the system from six benefits to one achieve the aim. People should be

:09:09. > :09:12.able to increase or decrease the hours as the work changes or the

:09:13. > :09:15.requirements change. It should be quite straightforward for those

:09:16. > :09:19.people who want to increase their hours, for employers who want to

:09:20. > :09:22.give more hours, to be able to give that work, so people can get more

:09:23. > :09:25.experience. There is more reason for employers to give more training,

:09:26. > :09:31.perhaps for people to gain greater qualifications. That allows

:09:32. > :09:36.progression and, perhaps, promotion, in a place of work, which is very

:09:37. > :09:40.good for those individuals, and good for society around them, and the

:09:41. > :09:43.businesses employing them. I won't give way, we're tight for time. The

:09:44. > :09:50.government is delivering for the poorest. Labour governments have

:09:51. > :09:58.always, Labour periods of government have always resulted in an increase

:09:59. > :10:01.in unemployment from 1997 to 2010, unemployment went from 2.1 million

:10:02. > :10:08.to 2.5 million. This government has seen unemployment dropped below 1.5

:10:09. > :10:14.million. The number of... I'll give way. I thank my honourable friend

:10:15. > :10:17.very much for giving way, and does he also agree that as well as the

:10:18. > :10:22.employment figures rising we've also seen more disabled people back to

:10:23. > :10:26.work, and that is a chance for them to fulfil their potential in the

:10:27. > :10:30.workplace and in life. The honourable lady highlights the

:10:31. > :10:35.really important point. Many people have got into work, fully abled

:10:36. > :10:39.people, and what we need to do is ensure the whole of society, all of

:10:40. > :10:45.our communities, can get into work. The number of children in workless

:10:46. > :10:49.households has fallen in every region since 2010, to a record low.

:10:50. > :10:54.The number of children in workless households fell by 90,000 in the

:10:55. > :10:58.last year. The resolution foundation reported the number of low paid,

:10:59. > :11:04.those on less than two thirds of median wage, is at its lowest level

:11:05. > :11:09.since the 1980s. I won't give way. Labour supported Universal Credit,

:11:10. > :11:13.and have no plans to drop it. And that's my honourable friend the

:11:14. > :11:19.member for the Forest of Dean has highlighted, the initial debate was

:11:20. > :11:24.supposed to be about a pause and six. That was changed to just a

:11:25. > :11:28.pause, a pause to do what? To amend or drop it? There are no proposals

:11:29. > :11:33.were at the moment from the opposition to roll out a new system.

:11:34. > :11:37.We have to have this opportunity to fix for the test, learn and rectify.

:11:38. > :11:43.Only 8% of Universal Credit has so far been rolled out. There are

:11:44. > :11:49.proposals to take it to 10%. This is a very slow, cautious procedure. But

:11:50. > :11:54.of issues... I'm going to get to a number of issues that need to be

:11:55. > :12:01.fixed. The policy will be better if it were closer to its values, for

:12:02. > :12:07.example, I believe it should reward people better than it does at the

:12:08. > :12:12.moment. The seven-day waiting period also ought to be reduced, because

:12:13. > :12:18.that gap, where people don't receive any money, in one week, is a very

:12:19. > :12:22.substantial sum of money for people often on the lowest of wages. The

:12:23. > :12:26.test, learn and rectify approach gives opportunity to continue to

:12:27. > :12:33.improve direct payments and improve the system to landlords, that ought

:12:34. > :12:37.to go forward rapidly. But we also need to reflect on the sense that if

:12:38. > :12:42.an individual is in charge of their own finances, that responsibility

:12:43. > :12:46.actually helps the individual, because when they go into full-time

:12:47. > :12:49.work that is a responsibility they will have then. It's a terrible

:12:50. > :12:53.situation where someone who has been so supported by the state and in a

:12:54. > :12:57.sense dependent upon the state, moves into work and has all the

:12:58. > :13:02.challenges of having a new job. In addition to those challenges, having

:13:03. > :13:07.to realise the lack of support for the loss of that support from the

:13:08. > :13:11.welfare system. We also need to, I believe, change the six-week period.

:13:12. > :13:21.It's a very substantial period, it isn't in the spirit, in the values

:13:22. > :13:24.of Universal Credit. I think the government is demonstrating it is

:13:25. > :13:28.listening and a key part of that has been the introduction of the free

:13:29. > :13:31.telephone service. I don't want the roll-out to be stopped. But for it

:13:32. > :13:37.to go on and I think there needs to be reformed. Astala Khan.

:13:38. > :13:45.I am a new member here and last week I was here, unsuccessfully, I didn't

:13:46. > :13:48.have the opportunity to contribute. However I agree with the Minister

:13:49. > :13:58.that the debate was a good debate last week. To me, it is outrageous

:13:59. > :14:04.the government is ignoring the clear will of this house expressed by A

:14:05. > :14:09.vote of 299-0 to pause and fix the roll-out of Universal Credit. This

:14:10. > :14:15.is a real danger to the authority of this Parliament. I want to highlight

:14:16. > :14:20.two issues from my constituency to the Minister: I have a job centre

:14:21. > :14:25.closing in my constituency. Many constituents are worried the low

:14:26. > :14:29.amount of Universal Credit will mean more trips to the job centre, having

:14:30. > :14:34.to travel further. This could result in more sanctions as people are late

:14:35. > :14:42.or miss an appointment. And the second issue... I only have one more

:14:43. > :14:46.short point, then I will see if... The second point is, the rent

:14:47. > :14:49.arrears is higher among Universal Credit claimants, young people

:14:50. > :14:52.cannot receive payments towards housing costs, and the need to

:14:53. > :14:57.borrow money before claimants receive their first payment are all

:14:58. > :15:01.contributing to a high risk of eviction and homelessness. Will the

:15:02. > :15:09.Minister committed to addressing these issues? Is the honourable

:15:10. > :15:15.gentleman completed his speech? I most grateful to the honourable

:15:16. > :15:18.gentleman. Lucy Fraser. How do we encourage more people into work and

:15:19. > :15:24.ensure those not in work have a decent standard of living, it is

:15:25. > :15:28.important. And worthy of debate. It is valuable to debate both the

:15:29. > :15:32.principle behind Universal Credit and government's formulation of the

:15:33. > :15:36.policy. As it is valuable to debate whether, given a further roll-out is

:15:37. > :15:41.due to take place shortly, whether there should be a further pause to

:15:42. > :15:47.resolve and discuss issues such as timing of payments before the

:15:48. > :15:52.roll-out is extended. Both of these, I say, are legitimate concerns. But

:15:53. > :15:56.the difficulty with the motion and debate as it was put last week is

:15:57. > :16:02.that these two issues were conflated into one. The motion before the

:16:03. > :16:08.house on its face purported to raise the second issue. Namely, whether

:16:09. > :16:14.there should be a pause, and a pause alone. A pause, Mr Speaker, is a

:16:15. > :16:22.temporary or brief interruption after which service will resume. The

:16:23. > :16:27.speech in support of the motion went far beyond arguing for a pause and

:16:28. > :16:33.instead identified fundamental weaknesses as she saw it in relation

:16:34. > :16:37.to Universal Credit. She identified no less than 11 individual

:16:38. > :16:45.amendments. Which she wanted to see. She quoted the charity, Gingerbread,

:16:46. > :16:50.who said the errors in the structure of this system itself needed

:16:51. > :16:55.addressing. She said, we cannot allow the devastating impact of

:16:56. > :16:58.Universal Credit roll-out to happen. Mr Speaker, these points are

:16:59. > :17:01.important because when your position brings an opposition Day motion

:17:02. > :17:05.before this house on an important point which affects the lives of our

:17:06. > :17:09.constituents, it's important we as MPs know what we are voting on. When

:17:10. > :17:15.the party opposite puts a motion before this house, and this

:17:16. > :17:19.particular motion, were they intending, Mr Speaker, to request a

:17:20. > :17:22.short and temporary pause to Universal Credit, or were they ask

:17:23. > :17:26.insignificant questions about the operation of Universal Credit?

:17:27. > :17:30.Michaels, Mr Speaker, is the other side of the house, by this motion,

:17:31. > :17:35.were playing politics. And would stick to do is how we voted on this

:17:36. > :17:39.motion. The cars if the government voted in favour of the motion it

:17:40. > :17:42.would be open for them to say they were agreeing with the wider issues

:17:43. > :17:46.of Universal Credit outlined by the honourable member for Oldham East.

:17:47. > :17:50.If they voted against the motion, the opposition would say the

:17:51. > :17:56.government would not even be willing to agree to a short-term temporary

:17:57. > :18:03.measure to fix initial issues with Universal Credit. Would she agree

:18:04. > :18:07.with me that the opposition was Matt motion would have had more

:18:08. > :18:10.credibility if it had actually included the word fix, there was no

:18:11. > :18:14.mention of that, it was simply a pause. I do agree with that because

:18:15. > :18:18.it would have identified what they were addressing, I agree with my

:18:19. > :18:20.honourable member and neighbour for South Cambridgeshire committee asked

:18:21. > :18:26.the honourable member whether she was just asking for an amendment in

:18:27. > :18:30.relationship to the pause. She didn't answer the question. Mr

:18:31. > :18:34.Speaker, we know the other side are playing politics because the

:18:35. > :18:39.honourable member for Welsh all South admitted that in the last

:18:40. > :18:44.standing orders 24 debate that took place. It was put to her by the

:18:45. > :18:47.member for Cheltenham whether she thought it was potentially

:18:48. > :18:51.contentious to put forward a motion for political effect, and she

:18:52. > :18:54.answered, I'm sorry, I thought we were in politics. We are

:18:55. > :19:00.politicians. So that is what we would expect to do in here. Mr

:19:01. > :19:04.Speaker, in this house I expect to debate motions which affect the

:19:05. > :19:11.lives of my constituents. I expect that when I vote it is clear what I

:19:12. > :19:13.have voted on. So I can be held to account. Mr Speaker, that should be

:19:14. > :19:25.the nature of politics. Today, like everyday, and going to

:19:26. > :19:30.be speaking for the many, not the few. And my constituency, and across

:19:31. > :19:39.the United Kingdom, people are worried. They live in fear, and most

:19:40. > :19:44.criminal of all, no one is listening. Many of those

:19:45. > :19:47.constituents feel they are not being listened to, not by the Tories in

:19:48. > :19:55.Westminster, not by the SNP in Scotland. Every day this

:19:56. > :19:59.government's flagship policy on Universal Credit, this is the best

:20:00. > :20:06.example of this... Last week I shared with the house a very simple

:20:07. > :20:09.message I had to the people of Coatbridge and people across the

:20:10. > :20:13.country, this side of the house is listening. My honourable friend from

:20:14. > :20:17.Oldham is listening. The honourable member for Islington North is

:20:18. > :20:20.listening. And the Labour benches are listening. That's why we are

:20:21. > :20:28.here today. I want to start by tackling the myth people want to

:20:29. > :20:32.live on benefits. People are lazy. They are immigrants stealing from

:20:33. > :20:38.British taxpayers. How offensive. How wrong. How damaging. How

:20:39. > :20:43.reflective of the society we are living in today. People don't choose

:20:44. > :20:51.to live on benefits. Millions of children across the United Kingdom

:20:52. > :20:54.are growing up in poverty. I will not give way, I'm going to continue

:20:55. > :20:58.for the backbenchers who also want to speak. Passions are running

:20:59. > :21:05.highly, very highly, but the member must be heard. Mr Gaffney. Thank

:21:06. > :21:09.you, thank you Mr Speaker. These parents go to work. They can't pay

:21:10. > :21:17.their bills. They still have trouble paying bills. They can't fill the

:21:18. > :21:21.fridge. They don't choose to work score live on benefits, this is a

:21:22. > :21:24.country not paying their workers the wages they deserve and it needs to

:21:25. > :21:33.change. Workers need justice. The welfare system was created by

:21:34. > :21:36.the Labour Party and will only ever really be protected and saved by the

:21:37. > :21:40.Labour Party, and I say this and I want to make it clearer. I am not

:21:41. > :21:47.looking to ensure our welfare system isn't accessible, working on

:21:48. > :21:53.delivering for people in need, but I am against a failed system that

:21:54. > :21:57.doesn't work. So far in this country, Universal Credit isn't

:21:58. > :22:05.working. I will give way. I'm grateful. I am grateful to my friend

:22:06. > :22:08.for giving way, would he agree with my constituent who describes

:22:09. > :22:12.receiving Universal Credit is not a choice but the only means for

:22:13. > :22:20.survival, and there is little that is human, supportive, or indeed

:22:21. > :22:23.protective about Universal Credit? We know so many stories across the

:22:24. > :22:28.country of families pushed to breaking point, people who become

:22:29. > :22:33.more and more ill because of the pressure they are put under. We have

:22:34. > :22:37.heard in recent days of attempts from Government to try to control a

:22:38. > :22:41.situation. They now concede that we need to see a cut in the waiting

:22:42. > :22:46.times and receiving payments. Payments that go on food, bills, and

:22:47. > :22:54.simply getting by. That is why this side of the house... And that is why

:22:55. > :23:00.some members on oversight of the house are starting to smell the

:23:01. > :23:04.coffee and would like to know if they agree with the colleagues who

:23:05. > :23:12.have these concerns? I must say, the fact that we were threatened tells

:23:13. > :23:16.me this Prime Minister has only got her job than the ministers of the

:23:17. > :23:21.people across the country who are suffering. I just want to say a word

:23:22. > :23:29.about last week. I had Tory MPs laughing at me. When I was speaking.

:23:30. > :23:35.I saw Tory MPs mocking the moving points raised by honourable members

:23:36. > :23:46.on this side of the house. It was a disgraceful way to behave. And it

:23:47. > :23:50.was made even worse by the fact... Point of order, Mr Simon Hall. I am

:23:51. > :23:53.very grateful and I appreciate that I have not been an house that long

:23:54. > :23:56.and honourable gentleman has cast very serious allegations against the

:23:57. > :24:01.side of the house with no substantiation whatsoever. A number

:24:02. > :24:03.of colleagues have tried to intervene to tease and prise the

:24:04. > :24:08.argument which the honourable gentleman is perfectly putting in

:24:09. > :24:12.order. I take that entirely. But on what he has said on two occasions

:24:13. > :24:17.has certainly caused offence to me and I believe all on the side of the

:24:18. > :24:20.house. Order, order. I can do with only one point of order at a time. I

:24:21. > :24:24.say to the honourable lady for Dewsbury in terms of their

:24:25. > :24:32.contribution, I have heard what the honourable gentleman has said as I

:24:33. > :24:37.understand that he is an equable and even tempered fellow is offended.

:24:38. > :24:40.I'm not sure that I can find a cure for his sense of offence. The

:24:41. > :24:44.honourable gentleman may in his mind have been discourteous, but he was

:24:45. > :24:49.not, although that is a debatable point, as most things are here, it

:24:50. > :24:53.was not disorderly and I hope the honourable gentleman, who is a

:24:54. > :24:57.seasoned graduate of the Oxford union some decades ago has not had

:24:58. > :25:06.his tender sensibilities overly offended. Very well. If there is

:25:07. > :25:09.another point of order, I will take it briefly. Further to the

:25:10. > :25:12.honourable gentleman's point is there, there was an unfortunate

:25:13. > :25:15.occasion in the house last week during the Universal Credit debate

:25:16. > :25:20.when a member opposite benches did make an unfortunate comment or used

:25:21. > :25:24.unfortunate behaviour. He later apologised to the honourable member,

:25:25. > :25:26.so to suggest that there wasn't any mocking or inappropriate behaviour

:25:27. > :25:32.is not true because the honourable member did have the grace to

:25:33. > :25:34.apologise. I am very grateful to the honourable lady for that attempted

:25:35. > :25:39.point of order and I think we will take the view that there has been an

:25:40. > :25:47.exchange. Now, Mr Gaffney, who I think is approaching his peroration,

:25:48. > :25:50.should have an opportunity to do so. Yes, I got an apology and I accepted

:25:51. > :25:54.it and I moved on. It was a distasteful way to behave, but what

:25:55. > :25:57.made it even worse was the fact that you sat on your hands and you did

:25:58. > :26:03.not turn up to do your job. That is what made this matter worse. Order,

:26:04. > :26:07.order. I am enjoying the honourable gentleman's spirited speech but I

:26:08. > :26:13.must say that I did not sit on my hands. I did not fail to turn up to

:26:14. > :26:17.do my duty. I most certainly did my duty. Debate goes through that year

:26:18. > :26:22.and I think that the target of his criticism is other members, but I

:26:23. > :26:29.don't think is targeted me. Mr Speaker, I certainly did not target

:26:30. > :26:32.you. But on a serious note, imagine the people who did not turn up for

:26:33. > :26:37.their appointment for Universal Credit, what happens to them? They

:26:38. > :26:41.get their benefits taken off them. Well let's repeated on the other

:26:42. > :26:46.side of the house. You show no respect. If you can't turn up to do

:26:47. > :26:51.your job, just move over. We are ready and willing to do the job for

:26:52. > :26:59.you. Mr Speaker, I am just about to finish up. Let's hold the Universal

:27:00. > :27:04.Credit. Thanks very much. Mind you, Mr Speaker. It is incredible to

:27:05. > :27:13.follow the honourable member for Coatbridge and Bellshill and his

:27:14. > :27:15.comments. Last Wednesday, when we had the opposition Day debate was

:27:16. > :27:20.the first day in the roll out of Universal Credit. I will be keeping

:27:21. > :27:23.a close eye on that but like everyone I am sensitive to what

:27:24. > :27:26.people are saying about the real cases that are out there. We do need

:27:27. > :27:33.to be sensitive to that. But I have to remind us all why ultimately we

:27:34. > :27:35.are here. It is not just about process or parliamentary vote.

:27:36. > :27:40.Fundamentally, we are here because Gordon Brown committed one of the

:27:41. > :27:43.greatest blunders in UK public policy. Which was to extend the

:27:44. > :27:49.means tested benefits system not just to the poorest, not just to

:27:50. > :27:53.areas of industrial decay, not just to those who are incapacitated, but

:27:54. > :28:01.right across every area of the income stream, creating a massive

:28:02. > :28:06.new era of benefit dependency through the so-called tax credit

:28:07. > :28:12.system. This is a fundamental error. And I don't speak from theory here.

:28:13. > :28:16.Let me talk about my experience. I was running a small business. I had

:28:17. > :28:20.members of staff who refuse to work more than 16 hours because they

:28:21. > :28:23.would lose their tax credits. I even had a case when someone declined a

:28:24. > :28:28.pay rise because of the impact it would have on his tax credits. We

:28:29. > :28:32.have to understand that Gordon Brown created the Road to serfdom. The

:28:33. > :28:35.idea that everybody should be dependent on the state. Well, I

:28:36. > :28:40.fundamentally disagree with that, and I say this, it is impossible to

:28:41. > :28:44.move from a situation where people are so dependent on the state

:28:45. > :28:48.through some cuddly process. It is difficult when people have been made

:28:49. > :28:53.dependent to break them away from that in the way that is best for

:28:54. > :28:58.them. But a system like Universal Credit does that. Of course, it is

:28:59. > :29:00.difficult. Of course, it is an incredibly tricky process. But if

:29:01. > :29:03.you look at its benefits, encouraging people to work more

:29:04. > :29:10.hours and to make the most of their talents, universal support which has

:29:11. > :29:13.work cultures and they can really try to make the most of their

:29:14. > :29:21.ability, that is the sort of system that we want. I give way. Thank you,

:29:22. > :29:25.Mr Speaker. The last Labour Government lifted more than 1

:29:26. > :29:38.million children out of poverty. And paid off more debt than any previous

:29:39. > :29:44.Administration. Fundamentally, what happened was we asked taxpayers to

:29:45. > :29:48.spend 30 billion a year putting a ceiling on wages and productivity.

:29:49. > :29:53.That is basically what happened. Because why would you an more if you

:29:54. > :29:58.are so penalised by the benefits system? Why would you be more

:29:59. > :30:01.productive? And we ask yourself why we have had such flat productivity

:30:02. > :30:05.and flat wage growth. Because we are paying people not to work harder.

:30:06. > :30:07.And there is a fundamental implication of that in the years

:30:08. > :30:13.ahead because we have Brexit coming and we need to remember. What the

:30:14. > :30:16.country voted for and I campaigned for, but in my view the biggest

:30:17. > :30:19.issue was immigration. We want to have sustainable numbers of people

:30:20. > :30:24.coming into this country and if that is to happen and we are to lose

:30:25. > :30:27.access to this almost liberals pool of very hard-working labour,

:30:28. > :30:33.particularly from eastern Europe, we are going to have to get that work

:30:34. > :30:37.from people in the United Kingdom. He is making an extremely passionate

:30:38. > :30:40.case and I would just like to point out an incident in my constituency

:30:41. > :30:43.of Taunton Deane. Recently, a vegetable farmer just said he did

:30:44. > :30:46.not get people to go and work for him and he had to use eastern

:30:47. > :30:49.Europeans. He knows there are people who are unemployed but because of

:30:50. > :30:55.the 16 hour rule, they simply will not take the jobs. Canada is very

:30:56. > :31:01.gently point out that members are relatively recently arrived in the

:31:02. > :31:04.chamber and they then intervene, they do risk stopping colleagues who

:31:05. > :31:07.have been here for some hours from contributing, and I know the

:31:08. > :31:11.honourable lady who is a most courteous person wouldn't want that

:31:12. > :31:14.to happen. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think it is right to look at welfare

:31:15. > :31:20.reform in the context of Brexit because my worry and I say this

:31:21. > :31:24.sincerely is that you look at a scheme which is not to get more

:31:25. > :31:27.British workers. They are now looking to get people from Ukraine

:31:28. > :31:30.Russia. We have got to think about that because at the moment you can

:31:31. > :31:34.only come to this country as an unskilled migrant from the EU, not

:31:35. > :31:38.from outside. So we have got to look at welfare reform to the lens of how

:31:39. > :31:45.British people rise to the challenge of stepping onto the breach. We had

:31:46. > :31:49.an investigation before the general election and we looked at these

:31:50. > :31:52.issues and the trip is large part of our economy are dependent on this

:31:53. > :31:56.migrant labour, and if we are to change that, we have to understand

:31:57. > :32:00.that this source of the forms we bring to an hour just the start.

:32:01. > :32:06.There is going to have to be a real look at education, welfare and

:32:07. > :32:09.training. All of this stuff is not necessarily going to be easy or

:32:10. > :32:12.palatable but it may mothers to a point where instead of having flat

:32:13. > :32:17.wages and flat productivity, British people are given a fair chance. They

:32:18. > :32:21.do their bit. We back then. We give them the support of the Universal

:32:22. > :32:25.Credit system. We have the training and we have a competitive post

:32:26. > :32:28.Brexit economy and I think personally... I am happy to give

:32:29. > :32:32.way. Would he agree with me that welfare needs to be a platform to

:32:33. > :32:37.build from, not a ceiling you can't break out of? Absolutely. What was

:32:38. > :32:42.created through tax credits was a ceiling because it was so... I will

:32:43. > :32:46.not give way again. I respect the honourable lady but I only have a

:32:47. > :32:49.minute left. As a mortgage broker, I found so many cases were for a

:32:50. > :32:53.family it is such an extraordinary amount of the income paying for the

:32:54. > :32:56.tax credit system. That is not healthy and it is not sustainable. I

:32:57. > :33:00.pay credit to the Government for having the courage, yes, the

:33:01. > :33:06.courage, to take these unpopular decisions and sometimes we have two

:33:07. > :33:09.back unpopular decisions because without that the country cannot move

:33:10. > :33:15.forward. We are doing the right thing and we should be proud to do

:33:16. > :33:19.the right thing. Mr Speaker, under Universal Credit, everybody's

:33:20. > :33:25.monthly pay is sent to each MRC automatically through the PAYE

:33:26. > :33:29.real-time information or RTI system. And each MRC then sends it to the

:33:30. > :33:34.DWP to do the Universal Credit calculation. There had been rumours

:33:35. > :33:39.for some time that the RTI, this system, doesn't work very well. I

:33:40. > :33:42.tabled questions to the minister about this. She flatly denied there

:33:43. > :33:48.is a problem and then it emerged last month through a Freedom of

:33:49. > :33:51.information request submitted by a member of the public, Mr John

:33:52. > :34:00.Slater, that there is a thing called, and I quote, "The late,

:34:01. > :34:04.missing, and incorrect RTI project." Well, Mr Speaker, if RTI is late,

:34:05. > :34:07.missing, or incorrect, we have a problem because it is not then

:34:08. > :34:11.possible to do the Universal Credit calculation that is required. So I

:34:12. > :34:18.tabled a question to the Minister to ask what are the remit activities of

:34:19. > :34:21.the late, missing, and incorrect RTI project. The minister said the back

:34:22. > :34:30.and answer telling me it didn't use exist. But fortunately, each MRC was

:34:31. > :34:38.more forthcoming on this point. So I got a written answer last week from

:34:39. > :34:41.the Treasury which said this, "The vast majority of real-time

:34:42. > :34:47.information submissions are accurate and on time, however a very small

:34:48. > :34:51.number of data quality issues create discrepancies and these can have an

:34:52. > :34:56.effect on individual's tax and benefits position." Well, indeed

:34:57. > :35:00.they can, Mr Speaker. If the information is wrong, the benefit

:35:01. > :35:02.calculation will also be wrong. The following day, also from the more

:35:03. > :35:09.helpful at these two developments, the 17th of October, the Exchequer

:35:10. > :35:15.answer is that this, "During the 16-17 tax year, there were 590

:35:16. > :35:23.million payments to individuals reported by RTI." 5.7% of these were

:35:24. > :35:28.reported late. HMRC does not hold the information in respect of

:35:29. > :35:33.missing or incorrect reports. If over 5% of them were just late, then

:35:34. > :35:42.we do have a serious problem. Looking through all the submissions

:35:43. > :35:46.we receive, briefings ahead of this debate I was struck by the one from

:35:47. > :35:50.the Child poverty action group referring to them and I quote,

:35:51. > :35:55.difficulty making claims for Universal Credit, with many online

:35:56. > :35:58.claims seeming to disappear. Universal Credit being underpaid

:35:59. > :36:05.because real-time information provided by HMRC regarding income is

:36:06. > :36:08.not always reliable or accurate. Claimants being paid the run out of

:36:09. > :36:14.Universal Credit for no apparent reason. -- the wrong amount. What is

:36:15. > :36:19.happening here is the IT is not doing what it's supposed to do. My

:36:20. > :36:21.honourable friend for Brentford referred to the anonymous report in

:36:22. > :36:28.the Independent a couple of weeks ago from somebody working in the job

:36:29. > :36:32.centre who talks about the grim reality of administering Universal

:36:33. > :36:39.Credit. By contrast to the enthusiasm the members opposite told

:36:40. > :36:42.us they are working on this. When there is a discrepancy between what

:36:43. > :36:48.people are paid and what HMRC says they were paid, in other words, an

:36:49. > :36:52.RTI problem, it takes ages to sort the problem out. Members

:36:53. > :36:57.representing constituencies where Universal Credit has been fully

:36:58. > :37:04.rolled out report endless mistakes, delays, and errors, which take weeks

:37:05. > :37:09.and weeks to resolve. Another reason why this project's roll-out should

:37:10. > :37:17.be paused and then faced is to stop these problems being inflicted on

:37:18. > :37:21.tens of thousands more. The honourable member for East Ham, very

:37:22. > :37:26.experienced as a pensions minister. I'm sure he'll be aware of the fact

:37:27. > :37:30.universal currency, the pound, is to change what has become a

:37:31. > :37:35.dysfunctional welfare system which not only drains public finances and

:37:36. > :37:42.is very inefficient, it's a huge waste of human potential. Deeply

:37:43. > :37:45.flawed as the old welfare system was and remains, it's still a lifeline

:37:46. > :37:49.for many of the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society and

:37:50. > :37:53.we have to beat cognisant of that. Ministers must handle with extreme

:37:54. > :37:57.care, even while acting with the very best of intentions. I'm sure by

:37:58. > :38:03.now we are all familiar with the shortcomings of the old system. Not

:38:04. > :38:05.only was it very complex and difficult, therefore, both to

:38:06. > :38:10.navigate as a claimant and to operate for the government and job

:38:11. > :38:14.centres. It created huge disincentives to work, as my

:38:15. > :38:19.honourable friend for South Suffolk talked about earlier. Many would-be

:38:20. > :38:24.job-seekers found themselves facing marginal tax rates, which haven't

:38:25. > :38:29.been seen in this country since Denis Healey sat in number 11. The

:38:30. > :38:36.idea of Universal Credit is that it rewards work. You can work the hours

:38:37. > :38:42.you want, effectively it brings in that flexibility, it allows people

:38:43. > :38:45.not to face that difficult decision that has been mentioned by some

:38:46. > :38:52.honourable members, where they have to turn down work in order that they

:38:53. > :38:57.can keep benefits. I will give way. Does he not agree that under the tax

:38:58. > :39:02.credit system under the last Labour government, the claw-back of wages

:39:03. > :39:08.was 39%, whereas under Universal Credit it is 63%. You only keep 37%

:39:09. > :39:15.of what you earn. If you pay tax, it rises to 75%. You keep a quarter of

:39:16. > :39:20.it. I was going to turn onto tax credit. To my experience when I was

:39:21. > :39:25.dealing with that as a personal finance journalist in 2003 when the

:39:26. > :39:29.credit was launched. Work is the only long-term route to financial

:39:30. > :39:33.independence. Not only does long-term unemployment is that an

:39:34. > :39:37.individual's self-confidence and erode their employability, children

:39:38. > :39:42.who grew up in workless households are far more likely never to enter

:39:43. > :39:47.employment themselves. You have generations, generations of people

:39:48. > :39:52.that do not get into work and therefore you bed down poverty. By

:39:53. > :39:55.acclimatising claimants to the rhythms of the working life, being

:39:56. > :40:02.designed to ensure that employment always pays. Universal Credit is not

:40:03. > :40:06.only supporting today's claimants, but helping to steer many of the

:40:07. > :40:10.next generation of way from this welfare system altogether. A very

:40:11. > :40:14.good thing indeed. This is undoubtedly an enormous change. It

:40:15. > :40:19.would have been wise to have chosen to proceed cautiously. The full

:40:20. > :40:25.roll-out of Universal Credit will be completed until 2020, a whole nine

:40:26. > :40:34.years after the policy was first child. And enacted in that regard.

:40:35. > :40:38.Many dry runs in that respect. That is in stark contrast to the time

:40:39. > :40:45.when tax credits were introduced in 2003. I can remember very well at

:40:46. > :40:56.the time, there was huge disruption to millions of people's lives. At