0:00:00 > 0:00:00important role for Britain but just as a provider of military power but
0:00:00 > 0:00:06wisdom and skill, history and tradition and refutation. --
0:00:06 > 0:00:16reputation.Could he make a statement on the political situation
0:00:16 > 0:00:23in Catalonia.The events of the past few weeks and Catalonia are a matter
0:00:23 > 0:00:26of public record. The Catalonian authorities held a referendum on
0:00:26 > 0:00:29independence on the 1st of October that was found by the Spanish courts
0:00:29 > 0:00:35to be illegal under the Spanish constitution. Holding it was
0:00:35 > 0:00:40therefore illegal and an attempt to undermine the rule of law. The
0:00:40 > 0:00:44Catalan parliament then unilaterally declared independence on the 27th of
0:00:44 > 0:00:51October. Majesty's, does not and will not recognise this declaration
0:00:51 > 0:00:55of Independence, based on a vote that was declared illegal by the
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Spanish courts and we continue to want to see the rule of law upheld,
0:00:58 > 0:01:03the Spanish constitution respected and Spanish unity was preserved.
0:01:03 > 0:01:09Beastie situation in Catalonia is an internal matter for Spain and its
0:01:09 > 0:01:14people. The Spanish Government has set a date in December for regional
0:01:14 > 0:01:17elections, this provides a path to return to the rule of war which is
0:01:17 > 0:01:22an important principle that the UK strongly supports for all the people
0:01:22 > 0:01:26of Catalonia to have your say the democratic processes that are
0:01:26 > 0:01:31consistent with the Spanish constitution. -- rule of war. --
0:01:31 > 0:01:37rule of law. The alley close friend whose strength and unity matters to
0:01:37 > 0:01:41us and we consider that essential that
0:01:48 > 0:01:52. But I am asking the Government to act in two ways, to call on the
0:01:52 > 0:01:59parties in Catalonia to enter into talks and secondly Forrest Doi for
0:01:59 > 0:02:05us to facilitate progress.No one can doubt this is a political rather
0:02:05 > 0:02:08than legal matter. Getting both parties to talk is the way forward.
0:02:08 > 0:02:14In this situation the UK Government has a responsibility and
0:02:14 > 0:02:17opportunity, firstly to ensure the safety and security of UK citizens
0:02:17 > 0:02:22living in Catalonia and secondly as a leading European power, member of
0:02:22 > 0:02:29the Council of Europe, either the EU and of Nato and the United Nations
0:02:29 > 0:02:34Security Council, this is happening in our neighbourhood. Thirdly and
0:02:34 > 0:02:37uniquely, the UK Government has a recent experience of an independence
0:02:37 > 0:02:42referendum carried out in Scotland and lastly by agreement. We have
0:02:42 > 0:02:50some advice to offer and of course the hard-won peace agreements in
0:02:50 > 0:02:53Northern Ireland rests partly on the opportunity for all to have a see
0:02:53 > 0:02:59any referendum. And my debate on Catalonia the minister replying said
0:02:59 > 0:03:03that no request for advice had been made by the Spanish Government and
0:03:03 > 0:03:12none offered by the UK Government. I now ask that that often be made.I
0:03:12 > 0:03:15do not share the view of how Britain should take an interest in the
0:03:15 > 0:03:18internal fears of Spain. Talks of them are an internal matter, it is
0:03:18 > 0:03:25in deed a legal matter and in the same way we held an independence
0:03:25 > 0:03:30referendum it was with the law without any case of Spain it is not.
0:03:30 > 0:03:36In respect of UK citizens I believe I am right in saying we have had no
0:03:36 > 0:03:46reported consumer problems and I hope that remains the case.Is this
0:03:46 > 0:03:50not a cause for celebration, fast that at least no violence has
0:03:50 > 0:03:58adopted of a significant nature and Spain and secondly that the example
0:03:58 > 0:04:03of the way in which we are handled independence questions whichever
0:04:03 > 0:04:08side we are on an ocean to the Scottish independence, perhaps it is
0:04:08 > 0:04:15cause for satisfaction and example to others.Obviously there were some
0:04:15 > 0:04:20scenes on television of acts of violence and they are not the sort
0:04:20 > 0:04:24of things we want to see but the fundamental point is whether or not
0:04:24 > 0:04:28this declaration of Independence of the referendum was legal and it was
0:04:28 > 0:04:34not. In terms of the comparison between Scotland and Catalonia, no
0:04:34 > 0:04:39two situations are alike and eg to be considered in their own context
0:04:39 > 0:04:43and what is clear is that in this case the vote and subsequent actions
0:04:43 > 0:04:54in the Catalan parliament were neither legal nor constitutional.I
0:04:54 > 0:04:58was introduced to hear the contribution and they agree with
0:04:58 > 0:05:04him. I believe we are currently in a very dangerous session with the
0:05:04 > 0:05:12future of Catalonia has been turned into a binary choice between a
0:05:12 > 0:05:14unilateral decoration of Independence and direct rule from
0:05:14 > 0:05:19Madrid. I do not believe that either of those choices offers a
0:05:19 > 0:05:22satisfactory solution to this crisis and I do not believe that either
0:05:22 > 0:05:25choice is what the majority of Catalans or Spaniards actually want.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29I believe that what the majority wants to see his peaceful sensible
0:05:29 > 0:05:33dialogue between parties to try and find a resolution. That is what the
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Socialist party of Catalonia supports and the Socialist party of
0:05:37 > 0:05:42Spain and we support our sister parties in that endeavour. We are
0:05:42 > 0:05:45currently seeing from the governments of Spain and Catalonia
0:05:45 > 0:05:50is far from peaceful and sensible dialogue as it is possible to get.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53From Madrid we see the use of officially sanctioned violence and
0:05:53 > 0:06:05intimidation by the police,, scenes that are horrific to watch. Forward
0:06:05 > 0:06:11over the last month by equally heavy handled political tactics and from
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Barcelona we see a unilateral declaration of Independence based on
0:06:14 > 0:06:17a referendum which has no constitutional basis on which the 2%
0:06:17 > 0:06:21of Catalan residents were not permitted to take part and if that
0:06:21 > 0:06:2740% chose not to take part. Neither of these approaches offers a
0:06:27 > 0:06:30sustainable way forward, neither is a fear of democratic way to proceed
0:06:30 > 0:06:34and my fear is that the longer we are stuck with this false binary
0:06:34 > 0:06:37choice, the deeper and more entrenched the divisions will become
0:06:37 > 0:06:40and the harder it will be to negotiate a peaceful solution. It is
0:06:40 > 0:06:48a matter of urgency, we recall on both sides to step back to ease the
0:06:48 > 0:06:50confrontational rhetoric and heavy-handed tactics and start
0:06:50 > 0:06:53listening to what the majority of people in Spain and Catalonia
0:06:53 > 0:06:57actually want which is peace, dialogue and an edge to division.
0:06:57 > 0:07:02What is the UK Government doing to promote this? Or does Brexit success
0:07:02 > 0:07:06from our ability to pay any in Europe that the honest answer is not
0:07:06 > 0:07:19a lot.I agree with the second part of her response which is that as
0:07:19 > 0:07:25usual not a lot, this was illegal and against the rule of law. I do
0:07:25 > 0:07:28disagree anyway she portrays this as a choice. This is not a binary
0:07:28 > 0:07:33choice as she describes, it is a binary choice between upholding the
0:07:33 > 0:07:43rule of law or not.I understand the reluctance to and to feel in Spanish
0:07:43 > 0:07:48internal affairs and respect the view of the Foreign Office that the
0:07:48 > 0:07:50referendum was illegal. My constituents were disturbed to see
0:07:50 > 0:07:54Spanish police removing other boxes and people being prevented from
0:07:54 > 0:07:58voting. We do however have a very strong legitimate interest in the
0:07:58 > 0:08:02way in which Spain regards our sovereign citizens and Gibraltar.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05Can he confirm that Spain and respects their wishes to remain
0:08:05 > 0:08:14British.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18We fully support Spain and upholding the working of its constitution and
0:08:18 > 0:08:27we will stand with Spain in opposing illegalities literally see.A lot of
0:08:27 > 0:08:31fake news has come out of Catalonia, not least a number of casualties
0:08:31 > 0:08:35which was inflated by the Catalan authority. One woman saying she had
0:08:35 > 0:08:41every single finger broken one by one by the police, then later went
0:08:41 > 0:08:46on television to say this was not true, none of them had been broken.
0:08:46 > 0:08:53Can the Minister assure us that if in this country a counsellor were to
0:08:53 > 0:08:57agree an illegal budget, they would be pursued by the law. That is all
0:08:57 > 0:09:00of this land, and we will respect the law of other countries when it
0:09:00 > 0:09:11is pursued beer as well.I agree very strongly and say that each
0:09:11 > 0:09:16country has its laws, and those laws in each country is made by a
0:09:16 > 0:09:20sovereign parliament, and do not forget that Spain is a working
0:09:20 > 0:09:33democracy, should be upheld. We have been saying so. We should a very
0:09:33 > 0:09:42firm statement last week when the declaration of Independence took
0:09:42 > 0:09:46place, standing firmly with Spain and upholding the constitution.Is
0:09:46 > 0:09:49there any need for the government to provide additional guidance to the
0:09:49 > 0:09:53tens of thousands of Brits living in Catalonia, but also those planning
0:09:53 > 0:10:04on holiday in the next year?I would think much of life will continue as
0:10:04 > 0:10:09normal. I do not wish to dissuade tourists wrangling there. In terms
0:10:09 > 0:10:15of demonstration and violence, things have calmed down, and they
0:10:15 > 0:10:20were very tightly focused on the first wave. , great people to
0:10:20 > 0:10:23continue going as tourists, and in the same spirit we welcome Spanish
0:10:23 > 0:10:33people here.Will he accept that the most fundamental of all principles
0:10:33 > 0:10:37is the right of people to determine their own future? Does he not recall
0:10:37 > 0:10:42that the unilateral declaration of Independence by the United States of
0:10:42 > 0:10:52America, Norway, Slovenia, were all illegal and unconstitutional, does
0:10:52 > 0:10:57he agree that if the law makes it illegal for people to express an
0:10:57 > 0:11:04opinion, the law must change, rather than the people? There is conclusive
0:11:04 > 0:11:08evidence of the Spanish state sending people into demonstrations
0:11:08 > 0:11:12to incite violence against the police, there is conclusive evidence
0:11:12 > 0:11:23of excess of police brutality. How can it be law to threatened to
0:11:23 > 0:11:29arrest a blogger who's opinion the King president does not agree with?
0:11:29 > 0:11:33If this had happened in other countries, does he accept the United
0:11:33 > 0:11:38Kingdom would be making representations that it would have
0:11:38 > 0:11:45to stop, because the United Kingdom takes pride that it does not allow
0:11:45 > 0:11:50borders to stand on the way of human rights. Will the government agreed
0:11:50 > 0:11:52to put pressure on the European Union to offer to act as a mediator
0:11:52 > 0:12:01to the wishes of the people of Catalonia and Spain can be resolved
0:12:01 > 0:12:07in a way that does not involve any other unlawful acts by the state.I
0:12:07 > 0:12:14think the answer is no. I consider this an internal matter, it is not
0:12:14 > 0:12:23through other countries to instruct how to perform. Scotland in
0:12:23 > 0:12:26Catalonia and not the same as countries oppressed by the Soviet
0:12:26 > 0:12:30Union, so we should not draw parallels between different
0:12:30 > 0:12:34situations, and the Spanish courts have ruled it was not held within
0:12:34 > 0:12:39the framework. The Scottish Referendum was legal, held following
0:12:39 > 0:12:42the signature of the Edinburgh at agreement between the Scottish
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Government and the United Kingdom government and was overseen by the
0:12:45 > 0:12:54Electoral Commission.He is aware that Spain in this country are
0:12:54 > 0:12:58members of the Council of Europe, and does work with the Venice
0:12:58 > 0:13:05commission that has a code of practice on referendum. This code of
0:13:05 > 0:13:10practice is getting quite ancient, back in 2006 it was first drafted.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14Wouldn't he agree that if you are a member of the Council of Europe, you
0:13:14 > 0:13:17subscribe to the Venice commission, it is importing your referendums
0:13:17 > 0:13:27held under a rule of law, which be maintained?Indeed yes, if that is
0:13:27 > 0:13:30what the code of conduct says and it is clear, the country should do
0:13:30 > 0:13:35things within the rule of law, and in the case of the Catalonian
0:13:35 > 0:13:37referendum and subsequent declaration of Independence, both
0:13:37 > 0:13:46were knocked.The Spanish authorities have learned nothing,
0:13:46 > 0:13:51and forgotten nothing. Wouldn't it be good, as a friend of Spain, but
0:13:51 > 0:13:55with the EU we were to suggest they hold a legally binding referendum on
0:13:55 > 0:14:02the future of Catalonia then everyone could be satisfied?They
0:14:02 > 0:14:06are entitled to do what they choose within the workings of the
0:14:06 > 0:14:15Constitution, but it is not for us to tell them how to go about it.May
0:14:15 > 0:14:20I welcome the measured approach my honourable friend is taking. Could
0:14:20 > 0:14:22he tell me how her majesties government would approach the
0:14:22 > 0:14:28situation in which a warrant power was telling us in how to run our own
0:14:28 > 0:14:33internal affairs? -- which a foreign power was telling us.Indeed I hope
0:14:33 > 0:14:38his committee might look at this in some respects to look at the
0:14:38 > 0:14:44comparative situations across the world. If they were to do so, they
0:14:44 > 0:14:52would conclude things along the lines I have been saying today.If
0:14:52 > 0:14:55the UK Government does not get involved in the internal fears of
0:14:55 > 0:15:00four countries, does that not render the work of a lot of ambassador --
0:15:00 > 0:15:05the internal affairs of other countries, does that not render the
0:15:05 > 0:15:16work of a lot of ambassador is as useless?
0:15:19 > 0:15:23My constituents have sent me a number of e-mails about this, and I
0:15:23 > 0:15:29had a visit to my constituency surgery by a Catalonian Spanish
0:15:29 > 0:15:34constituent. With the Minister agree that the policing style of the
0:15:34 > 0:15:38original poll was heavy-handed, would he agree that the only way
0:15:38 > 0:15:49forward is by peaceful dialogue towards a resolution?I am reluctant
0:15:49 > 0:15:57to speculate but one thing that has been said is that the police did not
0:15:57 > 0:16:01take orders from the government. It is not for me to judge that. This
0:16:01 > 0:16:08was an illegal referendum and is therefore not valid and against the
0:16:08 > 0:16:17rule of law. So it counts for nothing.Lessons could be learned
0:16:17 > 0:16:23from this situation. Many reports say the economic impact will be
0:16:23 > 0:16:29catastrophic, leaving Catalonia as a result. Would he chat with his
0:16:29 > 0:16:35Treasury colleagues and commission work on what this will do for the
0:16:35 > 0:16:42Catalonian economy?It is not for us to deploy resources to make such a
0:16:42 > 0:16:45calculation, but the proper scrutiny of the economy of Catalonia will
0:16:45 > 0:16:52make the facts apparent one way or another.The Minister is right to be
0:16:52 > 0:16:58careful to draw parallels between Catalonia and Scotland. But one
0:16:58 > 0:17:03similarity is the now dissolved government in favour of having an
0:17:03 > 0:17:07independence referendum, just as Scotland did, and under the British
0:17:07 > 0:17:10constitution, the Scottish Parliament did not have the power to
0:17:10 > 0:17:14hold it. Back to the credit of the UK Government, they agreed a process
0:17:14 > 0:17:19with Alex Salmond whereby a referendum could be held. All we are
0:17:19 > 0:17:23asking is for him to use as good offices and experience to suggest a
0:17:23 > 0:17:30similar approach to the Spanish allies.It is up to the government
0:17:30 > 0:17:36of Spain, in the same way that this House's sovereign and agreeing to do
0:17:36 > 0:17:42-- what to do with Scotland, it is up to the Parliament of Spain to
0:17:42 > 0:17:49decide on this and not for us to tell them what course to take.Does
0:17:49 > 0:17:53he agree that notwithstanding the legality or otherwise of the
0:17:53 > 0:17:58referendum, there is an enormous duty on all parties to speak of
0:17:58 > 0:18:04reconciliation and peace moving forward?The best way for
0:18:04 > 0:18:08reconciliation is to get politicians in Catalonia to start by saying they
0:18:08 > 0:18:11will act in the rule of law and the workings of the Spanish
0:18:11 > 0:18:15constitution, then perhaps they would stand a greater chance of
0:18:15 > 0:18:20getting there.What we are witnessing in Catalonia is the
0:18:20 > 0:18:24return of tyranny in western Europe, and would not look kindly on those
0:18:24 > 0:18:28who have turned a blind eye to the actions of the Spanish government.
0:18:28 > 0:18:41Shouldn't the British Government now defend democracy?I am afraid I
0:18:41 > 0:18:48consider the comments that Spain is returning to tyranny nonsensical and
0:18:48 > 0:18:58somewhat ruder than that.As a Scot, the recent inexcusable violence,
0:18:58 > 0:19:03whatever prompted it, in Catalonia has brought home to me how important
0:19:03 > 0:19:06it was that the Coalition government enabled the legal referendum of
0:19:06 > 0:19:10which we have been speaking and ensured a proper democratic
0:19:10 > 0:19:15dialogue. But does not agree that perhaps he could speak to his
0:19:15 > 0:19:21Spanish counterparts and impart the wisdom of having taken that approach
0:19:21 > 0:19:25and counsel them that perhaps reasonable consolatory approaches
0:19:25 > 0:19:35might prevent more violence and further deterioration?I have spent
0:19:35 > 0:19:42the past year parting wisdom to counterparts across the world. This
0:19:42 > 0:19:46government has more faces than Big Ben, because during the Scottish
0:19:46 > 0:19:49independence referendum, they were happy for people all over the world
0:19:49 > 0:19:53to comment, so the idea for the UK Government to stay out of this is
0:19:53 > 0:19:56laughable. Will be not follow the advice of the Scottish Government
0:19:56 > 0:20:00and at least allow people to recognise this and move towards a
0:20:00 > 0:20:04legally binding referendum?I did not quite hear the honourable
0:20:04 > 0:20:12gentleman, I thought he was asking if I recognise the independence?
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Legally binding agreement.This is an internal matter for Spain, and
0:20:15 > 0:20:19now they have taken over the government of Catalonia, the next
0:20:19 > 0:20:29steps can be determined by the Spanish themselves, not by us.The
0:20:29 > 0:20:33Minister started by saying Spain was a respected and good friend and
0:20:33 > 0:20:37ally. If any good friends and allies were to go around beating people in
0:20:37 > 0:20:41the street, we would step in and take action to stop them doing so.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Why will the Minister not do this for Spain?I have already commented
0:20:45 > 0:20:48on this, and I think she has lost the perspective in which she makes
0:20:48 > 0:20:56that judgment.This minister and government likes to hide behind the
0:20:56 > 0:21:00Spanish rule of law and its constitution, so how would he
0:21:00 > 0:21:05respond to a UN expert who has said that Spain is in breach of several
0:21:05 > 0:21:13articles relating to human rights of the ICP PR, enshrined in the Spanish
0:21:13 > 0:21:17constitution, the Spanish government itself exploiting its rule of law.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20We do not hide behind the rule of law, we abide