07/12/2017

0:00:00 > 0:00:00Four Seasons. Beyond that, I cannot say much, commercial issues for

0:00:00 > 0:00:05them. He is right to raise it and I hope I can reassure him CQC close to

0:00:05 > 0:00:15what is happening.Point of order. On September the 13th of this year,

0:00:15 > 0:00:20this House unanimously passed a motion to revoke the higher

0:00:20 > 0:00:23education regulations 2016 which imposed the Government's latest hike

0:00:23 > 0:00:27in tuition fees. The Government have refused to give effect to the will

0:00:27 > 0:00:31of the House but the leader promised under her new convention we would

0:00:31 > 0:00:37get a statement within 12 weeks. Mr Deputy Speaker, like yesterday, the

0:00:37 > 0:00:42final day of the 12 weeks, we got a written statement, it added almost

0:00:42 > 0:00:46nothing new and left us none the wiser on the Government's promised

0:00:46 > 0:00:49review of higher education funding. It confirmed however that the

0:00:49 > 0:00:54Government will continue to ignore the clear will of this House and our

0:00:54 > 0:00:59conventions allowing Parliament's say on that meat secondary

0:00:59 > 0:01:01legislation. I would like to ask if you can tell us your understanding

0:01:01 > 0:01:10of the so-called convention? -- on the secondary legislation. As the

0:01:10 > 0:01:13Leader of the House giving you an indication of when ministers should

0:01:13 > 0:01:18or will respond by all statements rather than written to the House and

0:01:18 > 0:01:24can you give us any guidance on how the House can have a say on

0:01:24 > 0:01:26secondary legislation? This government is riding roughshod over

0:01:26 > 0:01:31the democratic will of this House. How can we ensure this House is

0:01:31 > 0:01:40respected?I think we have heard enough today. Right. Thank you to

0:01:40 > 0:01:44the honourable member for giving me notice of the question. She has

0:01:44 > 0:01:53asked quite a few things. The Minister, let us go through it, has

0:01:53 > 0:01:57made a detailed written statement on the matter yesterday which has

0:01:57 > 0:02:03followed the Leader of the House understanding of the 26th of

0:02:03 > 0:02:07September. If the honourable member finds this unsatisfactory which

0:02:07 > 0:02:13obviously she does, there are various avenues open, most

0:02:13 > 0:02:15immediately, education questions on Monday, I am sure that is already

0:02:15 > 0:02:22apparent as a good place to start. The Leader of the House's new

0:02:22 > 0:02:24convention, as a senior frontbencher, she may wish to pursue

0:02:24 > 0:02:29the matter through the usual channels. I hope they will be open

0:02:29 > 0:02:35to try to ensure you get the answer. If not, and I know you are not a

0:02:35 > 0:02:39shy, retiring Northerner like myself, I am sure you could go

0:02:39 > 0:02:42directly and have a meeting with the Leader of the House to take it

0:02:42 > 0:02:48forward. No more further points of order. We now come to prison reform

0:02:48 > 0:02:53and safety. Welcome to the bank which motion on prison reformers

0:02:53 > 0:03:01safety. -- backbench motion on prison reform and safety.Can I

0:03:01 > 0:03:05start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for having given

0:03:05 > 0:03:10us the opportunity to bring this debate to the floor of the House on

0:03:10 > 0:03:13this very important topic? Can I also thank the co-sponsor of the

0:03:13 > 0:03:17motion, right honourable member and other members of the committee on

0:03:17 > 0:03:24both sides of the House who have contributed to our work over the

0:03:24 > 0:03:27last two years or more in this Parliament and the one beyond? I

0:03:27 > 0:03:33also wanted a tank the organisations involved in prison reform -- I also

0:03:33 > 0:03:39wanted to thank. They have assisted us with advice and experience, as

0:03:39 > 0:03:48well as indeed the cooperation as a committee from officials of Her

0:03:48 > 0:03:51Majesty's prison and probation service and prison officers across

0:03:51 > 0:03:55the country. They are all deserving of our thanks. I will give way. You

0:03:55 > 0:04:01will appreciate... I would like to make a bit of progress.I would like

0:04:01 > 0:04:07to check the honourable member made a visit to the prison as part of the

0:04:07 > 0:04:12investigations and saw the fantastic work done there with invisible walls

0:04:12 > 0:04:20making people's huge difference to people's attitudes as to how prison

0:04:20 > 0:04:24can prevent reoffending?We visit a number of prisons on a regular

0:04:24 > 0:04:29basis, we are aware of the good work done at Park. I hope people

0:04:29 > 0:04:34understand if I try to develop what causes us to bring the motion to

0:04:34 > 0:04:42this house and the terms in which we do it. We cannot avoid the reality

0:04:42 > 0:04:46that our prison system has reached a stage where we have to use the

0:04:46 > 0:04:51phrase a crisis now. It does not come lightly. Over 30 years of

0:04:51 > 0:04:58experience practising criminal law on the visiting prisons to advise

0:04:58 > 0:05:01prisoners and subsequently working in the criminal justice sector with

0:05:01 > 0:05:09since I have been in this House. This leads me to the inevitable

0:05:09 > 0:05:13conclusion we are seeing a system under unprecedented strain. I say

0:05:13 > 0:05:18that not for one second outing the good intentions of the Minister on

0:05:18 > 0:05:22the bench today or his predecessors, not doubting the good intentions of

0:05:22 > 0:05:27the current Secretary of State or his predecessors, and not doubting

0:05:27 > 0:05:31the good intentions of the management of Her Majesty's prison

0:05:31 > 0:05:36and probation service and the real good work we see when we go around

0:05:36 > 0:05:41the country carried out by many individuals within that service.

0:05:41 > 0:05:48But... Can I develop this point customer but the reality is, despite

0:05:48 > 0:05:52extra money being put into the system over the last year or so

0:05:52 > 0:05:57following the report, despite the good work, all of the indicators

0:05:57 > 0:06:06when we looked at the situation in both our two reports, on safety and

0:06:06 > 0:06:11reform in the 2016 sessions, all the indicators then and since going in

0:06:11 > 0:06:20the wrong direction. I will give way.I'm really grateful. I am

0:06:20 > 0:06:24really grateful to the right honourable gentleman... Although he

0:06:24 > 0:06:28deserves it, not yet! I agree very much with the point he is making.

0:06:28 > 0:06:32Does he agreed the truth is we simply incarcerate too many people,

0:06:32 > 0:06:36particularly people with mental health problems, a staggering

0:06:36 > 0:06:44percentage of people in prison have mental health problems? And many

0:06:44 > 0:06:47also have autism or learning disabilities. We need to get people

0:06:47 > 0:06:50the treatment they need to help them avoid the criminal justice system in

0:06:50 > 0:06:55the longer run.The right honourable gentleman raises an important point,

0:06:55 > 0:07:00I personally agree with him. Although it is not directly touched

0:07:00 > 0:07:04upon in the reports giving rise to this debate, our committee has

0:07:04 > 0:07:11agreed not to embark upon a new inquiry looking at the prison

0:07:11 > 0:07:14population up to 2025, projections. The issues he raises will be

0:07:14 > 0:07:20important in that inquiry. I give way.I am most grateful. Does he

0:07:20 > 0:07:24agree with me that levels of literacy among prisoners is a

0:07:24 > 0:07:32problem and I understand that over 30% of people in prison have a

0:07:32 > 0:07:36reading age of an 11-year-old customer isn't this something that

0:07:36 > 0:07:45does need to be addressed?-- an 11-year-old? He is right. The

0:07:45 > 0:07:47previous Secretary of State reflected upon it and emphasised on

0:07:47 > 0:07:52a number of occasions that absolutely correctly, if we do not

0:07:52 > 0:07:57turn our prisons into places of education, we will be failing and we

0:07:57 > 0:08:01will continue to see reoffending. It is a real issue. Part of the problem

0:08:01 > 0:08:04is the low attainment of those people when they come in, very often

0:08:04 > 0:08:09linked with considerable numbers of other issues of social deprivation,

0:08:09 > 0:08:15lack of proper parenting very often, unstable family backgrounds,

0:08:15 > 0:08:20particularly high percentage having been in care, for example. The

0:08:20 > 0:08:23educational attainment is... Can I just finished? It needs to be

0:08:23 > 0:08:30tackled. One of the real concerns we have found is that because of other

0:08:30 > 0:08:33pressures on the system, many establishments are running regime is

0:08:33 > 0:08:37so restricted it is virtually impossible for prisoners even those

0:08:37 > 0:08:41who are well motivated, to access some of the educational facilities

0:08:41 > 0:08:45which ought to be there. The most important point. I am grateful. I

0:08:45 > 0:08:51will give way.

0:08:51 > 0:08:54Would my honourable friend agree with me that actorly prison can

0:08:54 > 0:09:08offer a second chance at that education and finding the right

0:09:08 > 0:09:13track? Very often charities like Green and Gross, who work in the

0:09:13 > 0:09:15prison is a notebook in particular, but who I work within my

0:09:15 > 0:09:17constituency, actually help enable people to understand and connect

0:09:17 > 0:09:19with the environment and learn about food and nutrition and the basics of

0:09:19 > 0:09:27life that many of us take for granted?I do recognised very good

0:09:27 > 0:09:31work that is done. But we need to have a programme of prison reform

0:09:31 > 0:09:36that genuinely enables us to draw that good work together, and puts it

0:09:36 > 0:09:39under a comprehensive and holistic strategy. For example the very good

0:09:39 > 0:09:43work that is done by many of those people on those programmes ought to

0:09:43 > 0:09:47be reinforced by a more imaginative use of release on temporary licence

0:09:47 > 0:09:53as we follow that up. Sadly we have seen a decrease of about 40% of

0:09:53 > 0:09:56release on temporary licence over the last couple of decades. That is

0:09:56 > 0:10:00an indicator going in the wrong direction.I right honourable friend

0:10:00 > 0:10:06might agree with me that if we could engage many more of these outside

0:10:06 > 0:10:10bodies, local authorities, experts in health, the environment, like the

0:10:10 > 0:10:13wildlife trust, who have good programmes on rear dilatation, we

0:10:13 > 0:10:18could save money if we had the right framework set up a benefit those

0:10:18 > 0:10:21offenders going on the causes because we would help to skill them

0:10:21 > 0:10:25up and give them confidence going into the outside world?My

0:10:25 > 0:10:31honourable friend is right and I can't do better than quote from a

0:10:31 > 0:10:4219th-century American Prison Reform Trust, Osborne. A politician, a

0:10:42 > 0:10:46return to good works, which might seem like a tautology, but he became

0:10:46 > 0:10:50immersed in the prison system and became prisons reform commissioner

0:10:50 > 0:10:55in New York just before the First World War. He said this and it is

0:10:55 > 0:10:59true today: Not until we think about prisons as in reality education

0:10:59 > 0:11:05institutions shall we come within sight of a successful system. And by

0:11:05 > 0:11:11successful system, he said I mean one that not only ensures a quiet,

0:11:11 > 0:11:20orderly, well-behaved prison, but restores to society the largest

0:11:20 > 0:11:23number of intelligent and honest citizens. He was right then and it

0:11:23 > 0:11:30rings true now as well.Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, and thank

0:11:30 > 0:11:35you very much, my honourable friend. I was recently very glad to speak to

0:11:35 > 0:11:38a group of sixth form students studying modern studies and they

0:11:38 > 0:11:42asked me about prisons and I said in the first opportunity I would ask

0:11:42 > 0:11:47one of their questions on the floor of the Mouse. My honourable friend

0:11:47 > 0:11:50is so well versed on the subject so I will literally asking one of their

0:11:50 > 0:11:55questions. Do you think the support offered to those prisoners with

0:11:55 > 0:11:58mental health disorders is effective?All be evidence our

0:11:58 > 0:12:01committee has seen so far is that it is not effective at the present

0:12:01 > 0:12:05time. We have far too many people in Britain suffering from mental health

0:12:05 > 0:12:10difficulties. The former Prime Minister David Cameron stressed that

0:12:10 > 0:12:17point very rightly in a speech back in late 2015. In February. My

0:12:17 > 0:12:21honourable friend remembers it vividly. The point is that the

0:12:21 > 0:12:26loosely well-made. While there are some people who we will always have

0:12:26 > 0:12:30to imprison or deserve to go to prison, and I saw another of those

0:12:30 > 0:12:34in my career as a barrister in criminal law, there are many others

0:12:34 > 0:12:40who are therefore other more complex reasons. Bad choices, lack of

0:12:40 > 0:12:44support, lack of background, poor education. Issues around mental

0:12:44 > 0:12:49health. We need to be much more discerning and to do that, we need

0:12:49 > 0:12:52to have a much more sophisticated approach to our penal policy,

0:12:52 > 0:12:57including putting in place genuinely robust alternatives to custody in

0:12:57 > 0:13:03the right places for those who are not a threat and a danger to the

0:13:03 > 0:13:07public and who can be reformed without going into prison. That is

0:13:07 > 0:13:11critical. We have not yet achieved that. We have got to have a system

0:13:11 > 0:13:18in which both sentences and the public have confidence, and proper

0:13:18 > 0:13:21rehabilitation for those who are incarcerated. But since virtually

0:13:21 > 0:13:24everybody will be released at some point or other, we must make sure we

0:13:24 > 0:13:28released them in a better state to contribute to society than we do at

0:13:28 > 0:13:33the moment. I will give way and then I will have to make some progress.

0:13:33 > 0:13:37He is absolutely right to emphasise the issue of education and

0:13:37 > 0:13:40rehabilitation, but can I also add to that the critical role of access

0:13:40 > 0:13:49to family? And can I commence to him the Joint Committee on Human Rights

0:13:49 > 0:13:53report on mental health in prisons and looking at the risks to young

0:13:53 > 0:13:56people in particular about offenders with mental health problems who

0:13:56 > 0:13:59didn't always guarantee access to family support at critical times

0:13:59 > 0:14:05when they were self harming and at risk of suicide?I know other

0:14:05 > 0:14:08honourable friend of mine are likely to take up those points in the

0:14:08 > 0:14:13course of the event. Can I finally make these points? While we welcome

0:14:13 > 0:14:16the number of the initiative the government are taken, there is still

0:14:16 > 0:14:19more that needs to be done. We particularly regret the loss of the

0:14:19 > 0:14:23prison element of the prison and courts built from the last

0:14:23 > 0:14:27Parliament because placing that statutory purpose including

0:14:27 > 0:14:31rehabilitation for prisons would have been an important umbrella, if

0:14:31 > 0:14:36you like, to link up the work that is done. But having a proper prison

0:14:36 > 0:14:39reform and safety plan is welcome and that is good news but again we

0:14:39 > 0:14:43need to put that into a full context, and we need to seek

0:14:43 > 0:14:49positive actions and not just the good aspirations that are set out.

0:14:49 > 0:14:52Having a genuinely independent and robust inspectorate is essential. It

0:14:52 > 0:14:55is therefore regrettable again that we have so far lost the opportunity

0:14:55 > 0:15:00to place not just the chief inspector of prisons but the whole

0:15:00 > 0:15:04inspectorate as an institution on the statutory basis and to

0:15:04 > 0:15:08strengthen the requirement for his recommendations to be complied with.

0:15:08 > 0:15:12It is pretty scandalous at the moment that a minority of his

0:15:12 > 0:15:16recommendations in some cases are dealt with. That needs to change.

0:15:16 > 0:15:22Similarly placing the prison ombudsman on the statutory books,

0:15:22 > 0:15:26and regrettably we are not there yet. I hope we will find legislative

0:15:26 > 0:15:28opportunities to do this and I believe that is where the minister

0:15:28 > 0:15:33would like to go but we must not lose that off the agenda. We know

0:15:33 > 0:15:36and others will refer to the fact that at the moment our indicators on

0:15:36 > 0:15:41safety both in relation to self harm, suicide, prison on prisoner

0:15:41 > 0:15:44assault and assaults on staff continue to go in the wrong

0:15:44 > 0:15:48direction. More prison officers have been put in but it comes back to the

0:15:48 > 0:15:51point that we have got to look in the round at how many people we are

0:15:51 > 0:15:58sending to prison and why and what sort of regimes they have. We have

0:15:58 > 0:16:03seen reference to an action plan on prison safety and reform. What we

0:16:03 > 0:16:08hope to see our specific strategies unemployment, mental health, women

0:16:08 > 0:16:12in prison, and specific strategies around retention and recruitment of

0:16:12 > 0:16:17officers, thus keeping experienced officers, which is particularly

0:16:17 > 0:16:20important. A proper robust inspection mechanism where the

0:16:20 > 0:16:26inspectorate including excellent people are genuinely able to do what

0:16:26 > 0:16:29is necessary. Wheels and a tad more transparency. I know my honourable

0:16:29 > 0:16:33friend the member for Banbury is going to talk about transparency and

0:16:33 > 0:16:39data. -- we also need more transparency. It cannot be right

0:16:39 > 0:16:43that the 29 Britons inspected this year, 21 were judged not to be poor

0:16:43 > 0:16:49or good. -- of the 29 prisons inspected this year, 21 were judged

0:16:49 > 0:16:58to be poor or not good. We need to use the changes that have been made

0:16:58 > 0:17:02to the structure of the prison and probation service to refresh that

0:17:02 > 0:17:08culture at every level. I think that is the most pressing matter. There

0:17:08 > 0:17:12is great work done further down but all too often prison officers and

0:17:12 > 0:17:16governors have said to us that they feel cut out sometimes of what can

0:17:16 > 0:17:21still be too hierarchical in the chain of command. That needs to

0:17:21 > 0:17:27change. Prison reform at the end of the day was rightly described by

0:17:27 > 0:17:32David Cameron as being a great progressive cause. It should be, it

0:17:32 > 0:17:36should be for politicians on all sides of the political divide. A

0:17:36 > 0:17:44former Home Secretary who became Prime Minister said that one of the

0:17:44 > 0:17:48purposes of prisoner was to seek the treasure in the heart of every man.

0:17:48 > 0:17:56That was Winston Churchill in 1910. I say to the Prime Minister, having

0:17:56 > 0:18:00had the same career trajectory, that sort of phrase would have a very

0:18:00 > 0:18:03good fit with their desire to tackle the burning injustices in society

0:18:03 > 0:18:07because some of the injustices and challenges in prisons are as acute

0:18:07 > 0:18:11in our society as anywhere else. We hope to have more specific responses

0:18:11 > 0:18:14from the minister to the reports we have made and a further indication

0:18:14 > 0:18:17of the direction of travel. And above all, I hope this House will

0:18:17 > 0:18:23not let the issue slide away down the agenda.The question is as on

0:18:23 > 0:18:27the order paper. David Hanson.Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Five

0:18:27 > 0:18:38minutes. Starting from now! Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is a

0:18:38 > 0:18:40particularly hard-hitting motion. If members and honourable members read

0:18:40 > 0:18:44the motion, they will see it is not drawing back challenges the prison

0:18:44 > 0:18:50service faces. It is important today that as a select committee we focus

0:18:50 > 0:18:53on specific issues, and we will do this, and put to the minister what

0:18:53 > 0:18:59the response of the government will be to those major challenges. As the

0:18:59 > 0:19:02honourable member for Bromley and Chislehurst, the very good chair of

0:19:02 > 0:19:06the select committee, has said, those challenges are deteriorating.

0:19:06 > 0:19:11The situation is getting worse. The problems in prisons are

0:19:11 > 0:19:15exacerbating. While staff are doing an excellent job and trying their

0:19:15 > 0:19:19best in difficult circumstances, it is clear that when we face a

0:19:19 > 0:19:23situation where we have 300 deaths in prison custody in the last 12

0:19:23 > 0:19:28months, of which 77 were self-inflicted, when we see self

0:19:28 > 0:19:33harm reaching record highs and increasing by 12% over the 12

0:19:33 > 0:19:36months, when we see the number of incidents requiring hospital

0:19:36 > 0:19:42attendance rising by 9% over the past 12 months, when we seek

0:19:42 > 0:19:47prisoner on prisoner assaults rising to record highs, or when we see for

0:19:47 > 0:19:52example assaults on staff continuing to rise, and when we see the number

0:19:52 > 0:19:56of hospital admissions continuing to rise, there is some real talent in

0:19:56 > 0:20:01the system. I would contend there is a challenge because of a reduction

0:20:01 > 0:20:04in resource. There is a challenge because of reduction in staff but

0:20:04 > 0:20:16there is also a challenge because of the increase in the amount of

0:20:16 > 0:20:18psychoactive substances and drugs getting into prison. It is a

0:20:18 > 0:20:20difficult job and a difficult challenge but if we don't get the

0:20:20 > 0:20:23basics right in our prison system, then the elements of reform, rear

0:20:23 > 0:20:25dilatation and turning out positive individuals back into society will

0:20:25 > 0:20:34be hampered by those incidents. -- reform and rehabilitation.With

0:20:34 > 0:20:37people taking their own lives that the rate of one every three days in

0:20:37 > 0:20:41the last year, does he agree that the prison service should set to

0:20:41 > 0:20:45zero suicide ambition and we should be seeking to save every life and it

0:20:45 > 0:20:51is intolerable that so many people are losing their lives in the prison

0:20:51 > 0:20:55system?Absolutely. The threat assessment and self harm assessment

0:20:55 > 0:20:58are extremely important but that requires staffing to keep a watch on

0:20:58 > 0:21:02individuals and to support them through challenging mental health

0:21:02 > 0:21:05problems very often, particularly in the first few days and weeks of

0:21:05 > 0:21:10incarceration where people are coming off alcohol and drugs, or

0:21:10 > 0:21:15arriving in prison with severe mental health challenges. The reason

0:21:15 > 0:21:19this is important, Mr Deputy Speaker, is because in my view we

0:21:19 > 0:21:23need to look at how we can tackle these issues in a positive way. One

0:21:23 > 0:21:29of the real challenges is to ensure that we do undertake very strongly a

0:21:29 > 0:21:33review of the strategy, particularly on psychoactive substances and

0:21:33 > 0:21:38drugs. The government has said for example that it has rolled out tests

0:21:38 > 0:21:42were psychoactive substances across the state. Perhaps the minister can

0:21:42 > 0:21:46tell us how many today have taken place at what the outcome would be?

0:21:46 > 0:21:50The government has said they have trained 300 dogs to detect

0:21:50 > 0:21:52psychoactive substances. Perhaps the minister can tell us whether every

0:21:52 > 0:21:59prison has access to the dogs and how many of the dogs are ensuring

0:21:59 > 0:22:03that we tackle and catch substances that are smuggled in? The government

0:22:03 > 0:22:08has said it is making possession of psychoactive substances in prison is

0:22:08 > 0:22:11a criminal offence and I would look at how we monitor and enforce that

0:22:11 > 0:22:16legislation. I think the minister should look at introducing planned

0:22:16 > 0:22:21searches in prisons of prisoners. I think it is important that the

0:22:21 > 0:22:24minister looks that prison officers in particular, and whether there

0:22:24 > 0:22:27should be searches of prison officers and delivery staff. I spoke

0:22:27 > 0:22:30to prison officers this week he would welcome that because they want

0:22:30 > 0:22:35to weed out potential corruption among members of staff and I think

0:22:35 > 0:22:39it is important that we have some indication of how that will be

0:22:39 > 0:22:42undertaken generally. I want to see if the minister wants to undertake

0:22:42 > 0:22:47particularly further steps to ensure that all category C prisons have

0:22:47 > 0:22:50netting around them to stop individuals throwing material into

0:22:50 > 0:22:55prisons for drugs. I want to see and ensure that we have the

0:22:55 > 0:22:59re-establishment of the dogs units, not just regionalised resource which

0:22:59 > 0:23:03they are now, but also a local resource which can be allocated

0:23:03 > 0:23:09locally. I think it is important that we look at particularly the

0:23:09 > 0:23:13criminal gangs inside prison and outside prison making money from the

0:23:13 > 0:23:16delivery of drugs into prison through many means as a whole. What

0:23:16 > 0:23:20I don't get from the government and I think this is shared by external

0:23:20 > 0:23:24agencies like the Inspectorate of prisons, is what the overall

0:23:24 > 0:23:29strategy is. There are individual measures but I don't get the overall

0:23:29 > 0:23:31strategy. I would like some indication from the minister as to

0:23:31 > 0:23:35what is happening with regard to reformed prisons. Yesterday we had a

0:23:35 > 0:23:40report about a prison which showed that every indicator was going in

0:23:40 > 0:23:44the wrong direction. All those indicators were causing more drugs,

0:23:44 > 0:23:47more self harm, more attacks on staff in a reformed prison. I think

0:23:47 > 0:23:51we need to know who is accountable for that and what the plan is to

0:23:51 > 0:23:57drive improvements in that prison forward.

0:23:57 > 0:24:05Time is pressing. When his other minister came to the Justice

0:24:05 > 0:24:12Committee, recently, he talked about Oak Hill training centre, I asked

0:24:12 > 0:24:17him a question, is the Minister satisfied the performance now is at

0:24:17 > 0:24:23a level you are satisfied with? The Minister replied, currently, they

0:24:23 > 0:24:28are. Since that report and inquiry discussion, there has been a report

0:24:28 > 0:24:32which has shown yet again that the establishment is not performing to

0:24:32 > 0:24:36the standards it should do and I want to know from the Minister, what

0:24:36 > 0:24:42concrete steps are being taken to improve performance and if the

0:24:42 > 0:24:50improvement is not made, will the Minister seek to remove the contract

0:24:50 > 0:24:56from G4S?Thank you. It is a pleasure to follow both honourable

0:24:56 > 0:25:00gentleman and to work with them on the committee. I should apologise to

0:25:00 > 0:25:05the House I will not be here for wind ups, I have already apologised

0:25:05 > 0:25:08to the Minister and the Deputy Speaker. My heart is currently in

0:25:08 > 0:25:15the High Court where my District Council and brilliant campaigning

0:25:15 > 0:25:18group is bringing a judicial review against the Clinical Commissioning

0:25:18 > 0:25:23Group for their failure to consult us properly on changes to our local

0:25:23 > 0:25:27hospital. I will be going there immediately after I have spoken.

0:25:27 > 0:25:31Nothing else could stop me from talking about prisons. As colleagues

0:25:31 > 0:25:36in this house know very well! I realised my time in the judicial

0:25:36 > 0:25:40review yesterday how much I as a former civil servant care about

0:25:40 > 0:25:47evidence and about good government. That is why I am going to focus on

0:25:47 > 0:25:53data and the importance of data provision in what I say today. I am

0:25:53 > 0:25:56disappointed the prisons and courts Bill did not make it into the

0:25:56 > 0:26:01Parliamentary session but I accept many of the changes envisaged do not

0:26:01 > 0:26:06require legislation but can be taken forward in other ways. These changes

0:26:06 > 0:26:10must be driven by reliable performance data. In my two and a

0:26:10 > 0:26:16half years on the committee, we have asked successive ministers for

0:26:16 > 0:26:20up-to-date information on prison safety indicators, such as,

0:26:20 > 0:26:25incidents of disorder, staffing levels, activity levels, including

0:26:25 > 0:26:29number of hours each day prisoners spend locked in their cells. Our

0:26:29 > 0:26:33efforts have resulted in better quality data on recruitment and

0:26:33 > 0:26:38retention but we have struggled to scrutinise the Government's efforts

0:26:38 > 0:26:41to improve the situation because we have not received the information we

0:26:41 > 0:26:46need. The Secretary of State delivered welcome news when he

0:26:46 > 0:26:51appeared in front of the committee in October and told us about the

0:26:51 > 0:26:55justice data hub which went live the following day. I would encourage

0:26:55 > 0:26:59honourable members but not in the course of the debate to look up the

0:26:59 > 0:27:03justice data hub on the Ministry of Justice website. It holds

0:27:03 > 0:27:08information ranging from the perception of prisoners on safety,

0:27:08 > 0:27:16programme completions and deaths in custody. I am far from techie, but I

0:27:16 > 0:27:21found it easy to use. A step in the right direction. But much of the

0:27:21 > 0:27:24information is based on annual statistical releases. If we are

0:27:24 > 0:27:29really committed to reform, we need more data that drills down on

0:27:29 > 0:27:35specifics. We need to know how much time prisoners are spent locked in

0:27:35 > 0:27:39cells on a daily basis and work out whether the funding given to the

0:27:39 > 0:27:43most under pressure prisons has actually had an impact. I am in

0:27:43 > 0:27:50regular contact with the governor of a prison in my constituency, he was

0:27:50 > 0:27:53very understanding when I had to postpone our meeting scheduled for

0:27:53 > 0:27:59this afternoon. The prison recently underwent an inspection and areas of

0:27:59 > 0:28:03improvement were identified. Without comparative performance data, and

0:28:03 > 0:28:07knowing where he stands in comparison with other prisons, it is

0:28:07 > 0:28:10very difficult for governor to feel genuinely empowered to achieve

0:28:10 > 0:28:16better outcomes we are looking for. We must also know more about what

0:28:16 > 0:28:20our prisoners are doing when they have completed their sentences. The

0:28:20 > 0:28:24online hub can tell us how prepared they feel for release but nothing

0:28:24 > 0:28:29more about those who find housing or employment after they have left

0:28:29 > 0:28:33prison. We know there are fantastic organisations working to prepare

0:28:33 > 0:28:42prisoners for release. The Langley house trust provides specialist

0:28:42 > 0:28:46housing and programmes supporting the community for people seeking to

0:28:46 > 0:28:52live crime free, just 2.6% of the people their housing are

0:28:52 > 0:28:54re-convicted, one of the lowest rates in the country. I will give

0:28:54 > 0:29:02way.Does she share my concern therefore that Westminster council's

0:29:02 > 0:29:06rough sleeping strategy, the borough with the highest incidence of rough

0:29:06 > 0:29:11sleeping in the country, they found one in three rough sleepers had been

0:29:11 > 0:29:17released from prison? We absolutely have to put them in a secure home,

0:29:17 > 0:29:22central to the issue of prisoner release.I could not agree more that

0:29:22 > 0:29:26housing is absolutely key to proper rehabilitation of offenders. I do

0:29:26 > 0:29:30not think I would be breaching any confidences if I said the Justice

0:29:30 > 0:29:34Select Committee will be trying to work with other select committees in

0:29:34 > 0:29:38Parliament to ensure we cover the issues related to housing fully in

0:29:38 > 0:29:46the coming parliamentary session. Another organisation transforms

0:29:46 > 0:29:49lives through the challenge to change programme including

0:29:49 > 0:29:53post-release mentoring. To break the cycle of reoffending, we must have

0:29:53 > 0:30:02more data to target projects like these. But come on a data driven

0:30:02 > 0:30:06department is a laudable ambition but it is vital the statistics do

0:30:06 > 0:30:13more than scratch the surface. Safe and decent prison conditions

0:30:13 > 0:30:17promoting rehabilitation, it is complex. It must be well rounded in

0:30:17 > 0:30:22evidence, finding solutions to the problems our prisons face requires

0:30:22 > 0:30:28us to delve much deeper than we have done. In conclusion, off I go to

0:30:28 > 0:30:33court to deal with the way good government is run, but I would ask

0:30:33 > 0:30:36all honourable members to remember when considering prisons that data

0:30:36 > 0:30:46really matters.Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As a newly elected member

0:30:46 > 0:30:49of the Commons Justice Select Committee, it gives me pleasure to

0:30:49 > 0:30:56speak in the debate. Last Thursday, members of the committee visited HMP

0:30:56 > 0:31:02Rochester. It holds 740 prisoners and conditions in the Victorian

0:31:02 > 0:31:05prison were described as deplorable by the independent monitoring board.

0:31:05 > 0:31:09In March, 2017, the Government announced it would be closed and

0:31:09 > 0:31:16replaced. In October, 2017, it was put on hold. Many of the facilities

0:31:16 > 0:31:20are in a state of disrepair. For instance, the classroom in which

0:31:20 > 0:31:28rehabilitation lessons took place had a leaking roof. I will give way.

0:31:28 > 0:31:35Allah on that point,-- on that point, it is extremely important we

0:31:35 > 0:31:40go and have the data around the importance in terms of training and

0:31:40 > 0:31:46education and in terms of the prisoners education trust and the

0:31:46 > 0:31:50Ministry of Justice report, reoffending goes down by an average

0:31:50 > 0:31:57five percentage points, extremely important.I thank my honourable

0:31:57 > 0:32:01friend for that intervention and I agree education is absolutely at the

0:32:01 > 0:32:05heart of the rehabilitation of offenders and such a crucial point

0:32:05 > 0:32:09which is why at Rochester, when it rains, lessons have to be cancelled

0:32:09 > 0:32:15because the roof leaks, it has to be urgently addressed, if we are to

0:32:15 > 0:32:20reform our prisons and improve standards. Visiting cells in

0:32:20 > 0:32:24Rochester, we saw prisoners in cramped and sanitary conditions. One

0:32:24 > 0:32:28housed three men with a toilet screened by little more than plastic

0:32:28 > 0:32:33sheeting and no toilet lid. The perimeter fence is low and not

0:32:33 > 0:32:39comprehensively covered by CCTV. This has led to drugs, particularly

0:32:39 > 0:32:41spice and other psychoactive substances, frequently being thrown

0:32:41 > 0:32:46over the fence, with 47 drug-related instances been reported in just one

0:32:46 > 0:32:51week. We were told it would cost £300,000 to install CCTV system fit

0:32:51 > 0:32:56for purpose and the benefits would be immeasurable. Wheels are visited

0:32:56 > 0:33:00the drug rehabilitation wing but the 12-step rehabilitation programme had

0:33:00 > 0:33:04to stop when the prison received its now rescinded closure notice. These

0:33:04 > 0:33:08are the conditions the Governor and the staff at HMP Rochester are

0:33:08 > 0:33:13battling with on a daily basis and I want to commend the work they do.

0:33:13 > 0:33:16One of the key factors in rehabilitation and safety in prisons

0:33:16 > 0:33:23is the prison population. It has been fluctuating around the 85,000

0:33:23 > 0:33:27mark for nearly a decade and as of this month, it now stands at 80

0:33:27 > 0:33:316000. The Government has repeatedly been asked why the numbers continue

0:33:31 > 0:33:35to grow and their answer usually follows the template that more

0:33:35 > 0:33:40people are convicted of six related offences and serving longer

0:33:40 > 0:33:46sentences -- sex related offences. But we must also look at the wider

0:33:46 > 0:33:50picture to understand fully why our prison population continues to rise.

0:33:50 > 0:33:54We cannot look at offences and sentence length alone to answer the

0:33:54 > 0:33:59question. Long-term cuts to mental health services, addiction support

0:33:59 > 0:34:03and housing have played a part and had an impact on the prison

0:34:03 > 0:34:05population through reoffending rates. The Ministry of Justice

0:34:05 > 0:34:14latest figures for 2015 have shown that 29.6% of offenders in the

0:34:14 > 0:34:18October- December 20 15th cohort reoffended within a year. Cuts mean

0:34:18 > 0:34:21less support when they are individuals who require more than

0:34:21 > 0:34:29most. The no fixed abode study from 2016 estimated a third of released

0:34:29 > 0:34:34prisoners have no accommodation to go to when leaving prison. The

0:34:34 > 0:34:36combined homelessness and information network report on rough

0:34:36 > 0:34:40sleeping in London showed 33% of people seem sleeping rough had some

0:34:40 > 0:34:45experience of being in prison. Let me repeat that, a third of all

0:34:45 > 0:34:51prisoners are likely to be homeless upon release.I will give way. Would

0:34:51 > 0:34:55she not agree with me it plays into the point of the honourable member

0:34:55 > 0:35:00for Banbury about not being able to keep the data, it is well to health

0:35:00 > 0:35:04outcomes of those who seek rough are less good and we find ourselves in

0:35:04 > 0:35:08this never-ending cycle bouncing between the street, prison, in and

0:35:08 > 0:35:14out of the system, with little care and attention to find the treasure

0:35:14 > 0:35:20in that man's soul, as the honourable underside?I thank her

0:35:20 > 0:35:27for the intervention and one of the issues raised is people in prison

0:35:27 > 0:35:32for short sentences of two, three months. -- the honourable member

0:35:32 > 0:35:36said. There is no chance for there to be rehabilitation in that time.

0:35:36 > 0:35:41What we need to look closely at this community-based sentencing for

0:35:41 > 0:35:45people so they can get rehabilitation and come out of the

0:35:45 > 0:35:48cycle of prison and homelessness, prison and homelessness. A very

0:35:48 > 0:35:57important point. In order to reduce reoffending rates, we need to stop

0:35:57 > 0:36:01the spiral of prison services being eviscerated, leaving inmates with

0:36:01 > 0:36:06little help in their rehabilitation work. I think it is a commonly held

0:36:06 > 0:36:11view across this House that prison is not merely there to punish

0:36:11 > 0:36:16offenders, protect society and act as a deterrent, it must also exist

0:36:16 > 0:36:20to rehabilitate and re-educate. These aims can ultimately reduce the

0:36:20 > 0:36:23risk of reoffending by providing services to inmates that will

0:36:23 > 0:36:27provide them with the necessary skills which upon their release from

0:36:27 > 0:36:31prison mean they will be best equipped to fit back into society

0:36:31 > 0:36:36and mitigate their chances of falling into that cycle of criminal

0:36:36 > 0:36:40behaviour. When prisoners are incarcerated, the state is

0:36:40 > 0:36:43responsible for their well-being. We must not view this responsibility

0:36:43 > 0:36:48lightly. If we are to reduce crime and in turn the prison population,

0:36:48 > 0:36:57we must fix the wider pieces of the complex jigsaw. Our prison system is

0:36:57 > 0:37:00operating at close to maximum capacity. This is not sustainable

0:37:00 > 0:37:05and it is not a simple case of longer sentences for more serious

0:37:05 > 0:37:08crimes. We have a collective responsibility to ensure the system

0:37:08 > 0:37:12in which these prisoners are treated as comprehensive in its ability to

0:37:12 > 0:37:16provide rehabilitation, only then will we see the prison population

0:37:16 > 0:37:24decline. In conclusion, it is clear there are multiple things that must

0:37:24 > 0:37:30be addressed in order for us to secure decent and sustainable prison

0:37:30 > 0:37:33reforms to ensure the prison population is manageable and kept at

0:37:33 > 0:37:37a safe level. I have only been able to draw attention to a small number

0:37:37 > 0:37:41of concerns and I hope fellow members will touch on other issues.

0:37:41 > 0:37:45Until the prison population is under control, I fear reform and safety

0:37:45 > 0:37:51standards will suffer. Three people to a room in a Victorian era prison

0:37:51 > 0:37:59with limited sanitation, little or no rehabilitation work, uncertain

0:37:59 > 0:38:03futures inside and outside of prison, this is not where we should

0:38:03 > 0:38:08be in a 21st-century justice system. We have by no means the worst prison

0:38:08 > 0:38:12service in the world but we could and should be doing better and I

0:38:12 > 0:38:15look forward to furthering these aims with my fellow committee

0:38:15 > 0:38:21members in due course. Thank you.I have three questions for the

0:38:21 > 0:38:27minister. Some of the comments we have heard about the concerns we

0:38:27 > 0:38:31have about the quality of the ageing estate and the living conditions of

0:38:31 > 0:38:37prisoners, my first question is, what is he going to do about it? My

0:38:37 > 0:38:41second question relates to the current status of the Government

0:38:41 > 0:38:47closure plans and the plans to update and replace the ageing

0:38:47 > 0:38:51prisons we have, what is he going to do about it? The third question I

0:38:51 > 0:38:57have is about the impact the uncertainty of closures creates in

0:38:57 > 0:39:01terms of what the prisons themselves are trying to do to update and to

0:39:01 > 0:39:09improve their own facilities. The first question, he will have seen,

0:39:09 > 0:39:12as we have, responses from the Chief Inspector of Prisons and he will

0:39:12 > 0:39:19have heard from members who have spoken today, we see in many prisons

0:39:19 > 0:39:22that showers, lavatory facilities, they are full and dilapidated and

0:39:22 > 0:39:32there are no credible or affordable plans for refurbishment.

0:39:32 > 0:39:35The chief inspector of prisons in a report that he published only a

0:39:35 > 0:39:40couple of months ago said that prisoners are held in conditions

0:39:40 > 0:39:44that would fall short of what most lambs on the public would consider

0:39:44 > 0:39:50reasonable or decent. -- most members of the public would consider

0:39:50 > 0:39:54reasonable or decent. My first question about what the government

0:39:54 > 0:39:59is doing to address this is very relevant. In relation to the second

0:39:59 > 0:40:04of my questions about the state of the government closure plans, the

0:40:04 > 0:40:09minister himself said only a couple of months ago that while his first

0:40:09 > 0:40:13priority is to ensure public protection and provide accommodation

0:40:13 > 0:40:20for all the centres by the courts, the commitment to close old prisons

0:40:20 > 0:40:25remains a very viable option that he wishes to continue with. I would

0:40:25 > 0:40:29like to hear some detail about what is happening with that programme. We

0:40:29 > 0:40:40have already seen in the prison estate transformation programme that

0:40:40 > 0:40:43reconfiguring the estate into three functions to look after reception,

0:40:43 > 0:40:48training and resettlement, and those three are crucial to the better

0:40:48 > 0:40:58treatment of prisoners. The ministry also was given £1.3 billion in 2015

0:40:58 > 0:41:03as part of the spending review to invest over the next five years to

0:41:03 > 0:41:06transform the prison estate. I would like to know what exactly is

0:41:06 > 0:41:11happening to that and what progress is being made and how that is being

0:41:11 > 0:41:22dealt with. The point that I would make in relation to the third of my

0:41:22 > 0:41:33questions, which was to do with the impact and uncertainty of closure on

0:41:33 > 0:41:36staff morale, I would echo the points made by the honourable

0:41:36 > 0:41:41member, about the visit to Rochester prison. I was not able to go on that

0:41:41 > 0:41:46visit myself but it is crucial that the lessons from that visit Ireland.

0:41:46 > 0:41:52One of the lessons was that governors told the committee that

0:41:52 > 0:41:57the decision about investing in maintenance or improving the

0:41:57 > 0:42:02facilities had not gone ahead since the announcement that the prison was

0:42:02 > 0:42:07going to close. As we have already heard, the old 1840s prison

0:42:07 > 0:42:20buildings there are described as deplorable and deteriorating. That

0:42:20 > 0:42:23impact on recruitment, which had been frozen in this prison, and the

0:42:23 > 0:42:32way the situation was proving demoralising to staff. Those are the

0:42:32 > 0:42:36most pertinent questions I would like to ask.I am really grateful to

0:42:36 > 0:42:39my honourable friend for raising Rochester. He may like to know that

0:42:39 > 0:42:43specifically we've found on one wing some 22 showers had been out of

0:42:43 > 0:42:50operation for months. And when we spoke to people there, the

0:42:50 > 0:42:53facilities management contractors do not see the governors as their

0:42:53 > 0:42:59client. They see their client relationship being with M O J

0:42:59 > 0:43:01Commercial and that needs to be got right because that actually means

0:43:01 > 0:43:08the governors get nowhere.We can have short interventions and the

0:43:08 > 0:43:11honourable member was hoping to get two minutes at the end. He's eating

0:43:11 > 0:43:18into his own two minutes and he will understand if he doesn't.I fully

0:43:18 > 0:43:21accept the point that the honourable member has made. It goes back to

0:43:21 > 0:43:27what I said about the prison having given up on trying to invest any

0:43:27 > 0:43:32money into refurbishment of the prison, trying to replace the ageing

0:43:32 > 0:43:36facilities there, and I have already quoted from the chief inspector of

0:43:36 > 0:43:40prisons that in many prisons shower and lavatory facilities are filthy

0:43:40 > 0:43:46and dilapidated. So those three questions that I asked, what is the

0:43:46 > 0:43:51government going to do to address our concerns about the quality of

0:43:51 > 0:43:54the ageing estate, what is the government doing about the current

0:43:54 > 0:44:01programme of reform and estate modernisation, and what impact the

0:44:01 > 0:44:05uncertainty over closures is having on both the prisons themselves and

0:44:05 > 0:44:10on the life of the prisoners? I think they are the most relevant

0:44:10 > 0:44:18questions that I would like to ask today.Jonathan Edwards.The English

0:44:18 > 0:44:24prison system is in crisis. It is failing inmates, prison officers and

0:44:24 > 0:44:26fundamentally society. As the heartening motion for this debate

0:44:26 > 0:44:30brought forward by the honourable members makes clear. Building more

0:44:30 > 0:44:34prison places will not solve the problem. The prison population tends

0:44:34 > 0:44:38to expand to fill the places available, often even before they

0:44:38 > 0:44:42are built. As the Howard League put it, trying to deal with only the

0:44:42 > 0:44:46supply of prison resources and places will not work. We now need to

0:44:46 > 0:44:50manage demand and the process asks fundamental questions about who we

0:44:50 > 0:44:54sent to prison and why. It is therefore surprising the UK

0:44:54 > 0:45:04Government is adopting the strategy of building an industrial sized

0:45:04 > 0:45:07prison complex in my nation. I am going to focus my remarks on the UK

0:45:07 > 0:45:10decision to outsource the crisis to Wales rather than to fix it. The

0:45:10 > 0:45:17Ministry of Justice opened HMP Brad Wing earlier this year. It can hold

0:45:17 > 0:45:212100 male prisoners and it will not be a revelation to many in the House

0:45:21 > 0:45:23that piling a few thousand prisoners into a small corner of rural Wales

0:45:23 > 0:45:28is not expected to be conducive to rehabilitation, whether it is the

0:45:28 > 0:45:31left-leaning Howard League or descent of the social justice,

0:45:31 > 0:45:34founded by the member for Chingford and Woodford Green, they are all in

0:45:34 > 0:45:39agreement. These prisons do not rehabilitate. What is even more

0:45:39 > 0:45:42galling is this prison is not built to meet the demands of the nation in

0:45:42 > 0:45:52which it is being built. Bedwin will have 800 more inmates than spaces in

0:45:52 > 0:45:57Wales. The new prison will be built in Port Talbot and again it is not

0:45:57 > 0:46:00being built for our needs. 1600 inmates to be shipped into Port

0:46:00 > 0:46:06Talbot. You do not need to have a medal to work out that adding this

0:46:06 > 0:46:10to the 800 existing surplus places in Bedwin to the 1600 at the

0:46:10 > 0:46:14proposed prison would mean 2400 places more than required in Wales.

0:46:14 > 0:46:20The truth of the matter is that Wales is England's affordable penal

0:46:20 > 0:46:24colony. Westminster is turning the old south Wales into a homage of

0:46:24 > 0:46:2819th-century New South Wales. These are not my words. They are the

0:46:28 > 0:46:34comments of Francis Crick, CEO of the Howard League. She went as far

0:46:34 > 0:46:38to draw a parallel between the infamous botany Bay penal colony and

0:46:38 > 0:46:43Wales. It is an extreme but fitting analogy. Plaid Cymru has always been

0:46:43 > 0:46:47against the building of these monstrous prisons in Wales but

0:46:47 > 0:46:52currently the plans are going ahead with the Labour was governed's

0:46:52 > 0:46:57blessing and the Labour Welsh government in Cardiff could stop the

0:46:57 > 0:47:01development if they so wished because it is being built on was

0:47:01 > 0:47:05government land. If only for once they would put the interests and

0:47:05 > 0:47:08requirements of Wales first. Wales does not want or need another super

0:47:08 > 0:47:15prison, much as it did not need the first. Because of the issues in

0:47:15 > 0:47:20jurisdiction, Westminster can still impose prisons on Wales. Scotland

0:47:20 > 0:47:23and Northern Ireland have more generous devolution settlement is.

0:47:23 > 0:47:27The existing situation is far from perfect but we need Welsh solutions

0:47:27 > 0:47:32to Welsh problems. Welsh offenders are being sent over the border to

0:47:32 > 0:47:35England, damning indictment of the current policy as applied to Wales.

0:47:35 > 0:47:38The devolution of the prison state and criminal justice system must be

0:47:38 > 0:47:48a priority. Putting thousands of prisoners on top of each other in

0:47:48 > 0:47:52these conditions is not conducive to rehabilitation or safety, for those

0:47:52 > 0:48:01detained or those doing the detaining. The lines of

0:48:01 > 0:48:05modern-day... All of the evidence shows that smaller and more human

0:48:05 > 0:48:10prisons that do not put economies of scale ahead of outcomes are what the

0:48:10 > 0:48:14prison estate need. I want to close with a plea to the UK and the worst

0:48:14 > 0:48:18government. Listen to the 9000 signatories on the petition against

0:48:18 > 0:48:22the Port Talbot prison. Listen to the experts from every inch of the

0:48:22 > 0:48:26political spectrum which advise against these but he must prisons.

0:48:26 > 0:48:30Listen to the inmates, the residents, Wales. We will not

0:48:30 > 0:48:37becoming the 's penal colony. I want to raise with the prisons minister

0:48:37 > 0:48:41today three issues that could promote progress in effective

0:48:41 > 0:48:45prisoner form, all of which relate to improving prisoner contact with

0:48:45 > 0:48:53families and which in summary I will state at the outset. Firstly, the

0:48:53 > 0:48:58need to consider the appointment of a deputy director for families

0:48:58 > 0:49:02burying staff and priority given to drugs and violence of prisons.

0:49:02 > 0:49:05Secondly the need to speed up the long-awaited policy announcement on

0:49:05 > 0:49:10the release on temporary licence revised procedures. Thirdly, whether

0:49:10 > 0:49:14Skype and other innovative face to face digital platforms could be used

0:49:14 > 0:49:24to strengthen prisoner' family ties. The member for Bedfordshire

0:49:24 > 0:49:32important up of quality contact with families for prisoners for their

0:49:32 > 0:49:37rehabilitation. His leadership paved the way towards the excellent Farmer

0:49:37 > 0:49:41review. The need to replicate the good practice which does exist

0:49:41 > 0:49:47across the prison estate in supporting prisoners' family ties

0:49:47 > 0:49:52and to redress inconsistencies in this area was one of the key

0:49:52 > 0:49:57messages in the Farmer review published this year. Its full title

0:49:57 > 0:50:01is The Importance Of Strengthening Family Ties To Prevent Reoffending

0:50:01 > 0:50:06And Reduce Intergenerational Crime. I wanted to thank the Prime Minister

0:50:06 > 0:50:12in this place today for the wholehearted commitment he has made

0:50:12 > 0:50:18in implementing every single one of the total recommendations of the

0:50:18 > 0:50:22Farmer review in full. Another reason why the review has gained

0:50:22 > 0:50:26traction in government so successfully is why senior officials

0:50:26 > 0:50:30are so committed to the family's agenda, either because they have

0:50:30 > 0:50:33been governors in prisons and they have seen first hand what a

0:50:33 > 0:50:37difference good family contact makes. However this important agenda

0:50:37 > 0:50:45cannot be dependent on individuals' conviction that it matters. Civil

0:50:45 > 0:50:53servants more on. Paul Paper is leaving at the end of the year. I

0:50:53 > 0:50:56want to pause here to acknowledge the decades of excellent service he

0:50:56 > 0:51:04has given to our prison service. His stubborn pursuit of reform and

0:51:04 > 0:51:07championing prisoners' families, who are among the most elected and

0:51:07 > 0:51:11stigmatise people in this country. Currently he has his work alongside

0:51:11 > 0:51:15his responsibilities as deputy director of custody for London and

0:51:15 > 0:51:19Thames Valley, a large group of prisons. In other words he has the

0:51:19 > 0:51:25families' agenda tagged onto a demanding existing workload. Does he

0:51:25 > 0:51:29agree it is time to give this agenda the same priority within a

0:51:29 > 0:51:32management structure within the prison system as drugs and violence?

0:51:32 > 0:51:37Each of these has got a deputy director dedicated to it. If family

0:51:37 > 0:51:41relationships is to be the golden thread running through our prisons,

0:51:41 > 0:51:45then we need senior staff mandated to keep this issue salient until it

0:51:45 > 0:51:51is embedded on the estate as firmly as action to combat drugs and

0:51:51 > 0:51:54violence. Indeed family involvement drives improvements in these other

0:51:54 > 0:52:00areas. Moving on, may I ask also that the minister kindly look at

0:52:00 > 0:52:08speeding up the development and announcement of the ROTL policy,

0:52:08 > 0:52:12which allows for temporary release of prisoners where it is safe to do

0:52:12 > 0:52:15so to undertake activities to benefit their resettlement including

0:52:15 > 0:52:20rebuilding closer ties with their family. If men have undertaken

0:52:20 > 0:52:24parenting and other family learning courses for example about how to be

0:52:24 > 0:52:27a responsible father, then open conditions such as ROTL give them

0:52:27 > 0:52:32the opportunity to put theory into practice. There will always be the

0:52:32 > 0:52:35exceptional negative incident reported but evidence shows that

0:52:35 > 0:52:39high rate of compliance with ROTL turns and consequential reduction in

0:52:39 > 0:52:47reoffending rates are positive. For example, an offender could attend a

0:52:47 > 0:52:51parent teacher evening as well as case conferences to discuss their

0:52:51 > 0:52:54child protection and care proceedings. It also helps families

0:52:54 > 0:52:58adjust to having the person around more. Many prisoners begin to feel

0:52:58 > 0:53:02less legitimate as a parent, making it difficult to build rounded

0:53:02 > 0:53:06relationships with their child. ROTL would help boost their confidence as

0:53:06 > 0:53:13a parent but indicators suggest that all forms of ROTL have fallen

0:53:13 > 0:53:16significantly since 2013. Governors have been waiting for guidance on

0:53:16 > 0:53:22this for over a year and do need this now. And finally can I ask the

0:53:22 > 0:53:27minister whether Skype or other face-to-face platforms could be used

0:53:27 > 0:53:31to aid prisoner family contact time enabling visitors to digitally visit

0:53:31 > 0:53:37their homes and see their family members in that context?

0:53:38 > 0:53:44Can my first apologise if I am not able to be here at the wind-ups but

0:53:44 > 0:53:48also take the opportunity to commend the diligence of the Justice Select

0:53:48 > 0:53:51Committee for bringing this debate forward? It is incredibly important

0:53:51 > 0:53:57the House has a chance to focus on this issue of safety and reform.

0:53:57 > 0:54:01There are lots of organisations in the wider community also

0:54:01 > 0:54:07campaigning. I would like to draw the House's attention to the

0:54:07 > 0:54:11community trade union, the largest trade union in the private prison

0:54:11 > 0:54:16sector, they have a very strong set of recommendations and campaigns for

0:54:16 > 0:54:24the safer justice sector and I would to take a look at the work of the

0:54:24 > 0:54:32Community Trade Union. That would add to the issue. I want to talk

0:54:32 > 0:54:34about Her Majesty's prison Nottingham in my constituency of

0:54:34 > 0:54:41Nottingham East. In recent times, we have sadly seem some very difficult

0:54:41 > 0:54:45pressure is starting to grow and we have had five deaths in custody

0:54:45 > 0:54:51since the summer, some of which have been suicides, some of which we have

0:54:51 > 0:54:55still not had the coroner's report from. Still early days to know

0:54:55 > 0:55:02whether there is a pattern of events that have been common throughout

0:55:02 > 0:55:09those. But I have been to meet the Governor and I have spoken with the

0:55:09 > 0:55:13very diligent independent monitoring board, volunteers who go in every

0:55:13 > 0:55:18week to check out things like safety in the prison and effectively I

0:55:18 > 0:55:23think the biggest problem is the cycle of drugs and smuggling which

0:55:23 > 0:55:28many honourable members have alluded to, spiced, how the strokes are

0:55:28 > 0:55:31getting into the prison, it really has to get national attention.

0:55:31 > 0:55:36Sometimes they are thrown over prison walls, but more often than

0:55:36 > 0:55:42not, and it is very difficult to be fully certain, there is a smuggling

0:55:42 > 0:55:47process where prisoners themselves secrete drugs upon their person,

0:55:47 > 0:55:55they bring them in to jail. And of course, you have the inmates who are

0:55:55 > 0:56:04finding themselves affected by those psychoactive substances. But in a

0:56:04 > 0:56:08way, it is just as bad that our gang operations going on in the prison is

0:56:08 > 0:56:11putting pressure on some offenders who go out on licence, halfway

0:56:11 > 0:56:17through the sentence, and incredibly, they are almost driven

0:56:17 > 0:56:21to reoffend deliberately to break their licensed to then go back into

0:56:21 > 0:56:27prison in order to smuggle more drugs back in. An astonishing idea

0:56:27 > 0:56:32that in the 21st century, we have reoffending as a way of making a

0:56:32 > 0:56:35living, that there are some prisoners who are in that particular

0:56:35 > 0:56:40cycle. I want to urge the Minister to think creatively about how to

0:56:40 > 0:56:45break that particular problem. Yes, there is a question of resources.

0:56:45 > 0:56:49Although we have had a ridiculous number of experienced officers taken

0:56:49 > 0:56:53out in recent years, I know things are stabilising now. But the

0:56:53 > 0:56:58experienced officer set is really what we are in need of retaining and

0:56:58 > 0:57:02making sure it does not get worse. I want to encourage the Minister to

0:57:02 > 0:57:06think about ways of breaking the cycle of people reoffending on

0:57:06 > 0:57:15licence, perhaps randomising which prisons re-offenders are returned

0:57:15 > 0:57:21to, it could stop this notion that the prisoner breaks their licence

0:57:21 > 0:57:25and knows they will go back into a particular prison, if we can break

0:57:25 > 0:57:29that, I know there are networks across other prisons which is

0:57:29 > 0:57:33difficult to break, but we need some creative solutions to this. It is

0:57:33 > 0:57:39important the key worker programme that has started in Nottingham is

0:57:39 > 0:57:44extended so that officers can get to know inmates a little bit more

0:57:44 > 0:57:48effectively because it is not just those on vulnerable watch who sadly

0:57:48 > 0:57:54we have seen taking their own lives and that is an important programme

0:57:54 > 0:57:58to be continued. Also, on communication, making sure we

0:57:58 > 0:58:03regularise access to telephone calls the prisoners because there is a

0:58:03 > 0:58:09smuggling problem for mobile telephones too. If there was access

0:58:09 > 0:58:12to approved family members and some of the pressures and strains on

0:58:12 > 0:58:18those who are inmates could be lessened. We need creative

0:58:18 > 0:58:22solutions, resources are part of this, but it is not just about that,

0:58:22 > 0:58:29which is why I am grateful we have had the opportunity for this

0:58:29 > 0:58:38important debate for the House to pay attention to today.I am very

0:58:38 > 0:58:41delighted to follow the honourable member from Nottingham, mentioning

0:58:41 > 0:58:45his own experiences of his local prison. I am pleased to be part of

0:58:45 > 0:58:50this debate and I think there is general consensus in the Chamber our

0:58:50 > 0:58:54prison system is not perfect but I would like to acknowledge the

0:58:54 > 0:58:58Government has an ambitious programme to reform the situation

0:58:58 > 0:59:01benefiting not only offenders but communities across the country. I

0:59:01 > 0:59:10welcome in particular the 2005 prison officers to be appointed and

0:59:10 > 0:59:19body cameras for prison officers and the police. I want to focus my

0:59:19 > 0:59:22speech on gardening and the environment in the prison system. I

0:59:22 > 0:59:25make no excuses for that because I think there is lots of potential

0:59:25 > 0:59:31here to be helpful and we know that imprisoning somebody itself does not

0:59:31 > 0:59:36reduce reoffending rates. To do that, as has been mentioned, we have

0:59:36 > 0:59:42to try and give these people skills to up their employability chances

0:59:42 > 0:59:48and help them to reintegrate back within the community and that is

0:59:48 > 0:59:51where environmental and gardening schemes can really help. I mentioned

0:59:51 > 0:59:57before in this place and many prisons of course are very old, very

0:59:57 > 1:00:04little green space. There is definite data to show that if you

1:00:04 > 1:00:09are not in contact with green space and nature, there is an impact on

1:00:09 > 1:00:13your mental health. I want to talk about a couple of good schemes. The

1:00:13 > 1:00:18Eden Project have teamed up with Dartmoor prison to transform disused

1:00:18 > 1:00:22exercise yard a gardening project within the resettlement unit with

1:00:22 > 1:00:28local residents buying vegetables, flowers and eggs. This kind of

1:00:28 > 1:00:32scheme is beginning to crop up in prisons across the country. When I

1:00:32 > 1:00:37was a television reporter, I went to a prison near Bristol and they had a

1:00:37 > 1:00:43fabulous gardening project and they had state greenhouses and they won

1:00:43 > 1:00:51gold medals at Chelsea. Lots of those projects need to be reinstated

1:00:51 > 1:00:55or we need to regenerate some. The conservation foundation is about to

1:00:55 > 1:00:59start a gardening against the odds project in Wandsworth and the

1:00:59 > 1:01:03project will extend across three exercise yard is currently just

1:01:03 > 1:01:09tarmac bringing together prisoners, staff, the community, leading

1:01:09 > 1:01:10horticulturalists and environmentalists. This can

1:01:10 > 1:01:17stimulate mental and physical health and it teaches skills and

1:01:17 > 1:01:20disciplines that can improve employability and I have recently

1:01:20 > 1:01:25met with the institute representing the landscape industry, £6 billion

1:01:25 > 1:01:30industry, they are crying out for people to go and work for them.

1:01:30 > 1:01:33There are opportunities if we can give people skills in these areas

1:01:33 > 1:01:38once they get back into the working world. Lots of these projects are

1:01:38 > 1:01:42not costly, they are cost effective and highly beneficial, so I hope the

1:01:42 > 1:01:46Minister might make reference to them and I know in a previous

1:01:46 > 1:01:50question I asked, the Minister mentioned they do run a prisoner

1:01:50 > 1:01:53gardening competition and I was invited to be a judge and I hope you

1:01:53 > 1:01:58will stick to the offer because I would like to do that. The Forestry

1:01:58 > 1:02:05Commission run... Of course I will give way.I would like to confirm

1:02:05 > 1:02:11the invitation to my honourable friend to be a judge in the prison

1:02:11 > 1:02:15gardening competition at the convenience, the invitation is open.

1:02:15 > 1:02:21Hoping I will be allowed out by the whips. I think this is a very

1:02:21 > 1:02:25important initiative and once we get more attention for it, more people

1:02:25 > 1:02:29will enter. I thank the Minister for that. The Forestry Commission run a

1:02:29 > 1:02:35very interesting offenders and nature scheme offering typically

1:02:35 > 1:02:40working with volunteers on nature conservation in woodland sites and

1:02:40 > 1:02:45they do different tasks like building foot paths, creating walks,

1:02:45 > 1:02:49establishing ponds, learning about conversation and the environment --

1:02:49 > 1:02:55learning about conservation. And they address factors contributing to

1:02:55 > 1:03:00reoffending. The Phoenix recovery are a charity working with people in

1:03:00 > 1:03:04and out of prison struggling with drug and alcohol addiction and the

1:03:04 > 1:03:08drug problem in our prisons has been much referred to today. This project

1:03:08 > 1:03:12is supported by the national Lottery and they run a recovery through

1:03:12 > 1:03:15nature programme aiming to connect people using the services of the

1:03:15 > 1:03:20charity with nature to assist their recovery and those who participate

1:03:20 > 1:03:28have an incredible 41% higher chance of recovery than the national

1:03:28 > 1:03:32average. There is mileage in this. Many of the ideas I have referenced

1:03:32 > 1:03:36today are mentioned in a pamphlet many colleagues joined in with

1:03:36 > 1:03:39writing with the conservative environment network calling for a

1:03:39 > 1:03:43more holistic approach to environmental policy across

1:03:43 > 1:03:48departments. This government is doing great work on the environment

1:03:48 > 1:03:53now, bringing it into many areas, but let us add an environment strand

1:03:53 > 1:03:57to the prison reform. I do not know how many members went to see the

1:03:57 > 1:04:04Paddington America to film. Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps you did? --

1:04:04 > 1:04:11Paddington 2. It is fantastic. Paddington used cooking to improve

1:04:11 > 1:04:16the lives of prisoners and I am saying, let us use gardening. It is

1:04:16 > 1:04:21challenging. It is not the answer to everything but it would be one small

1:04:21 > 1:04:26added tool in the box, in the greenhouse, might I say, that might

1:04:26 > 1:04:29help us to address this problem which ultimately will improve the

1:04:29 > 1:04:38lives of so many people and they deserve it.Nelson Mandela said, no

1:04:38 > 1:04:46one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its nations. A

1:04:46 > 1:04:52nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but

1:04:52 > 1:05:01its lowest ones. At 3.94 billion annual expenditure, prisons take up

1:05:01 > 1:05:04the largest share of the Ministry of Justice's budget, going towards

1:05:04 > 1:05:12maintaining the 118 adult prisons and keeping 86,000 in prison. It

1:05:12 > 1:05:21works out as a staggering that the book as a member of the just select

1:05:21 > 1:05:28committee on week ago I visited a young offenders institute. --

1:05:28 > 1:05:31Justice Select Committee. I was heartened to see the education and

1:05:31 > 1:05:35training provided but I was very concerned to learn that because of

1:05:35 > 1:05:38staffing levels, young people were not getting their 27 hours of

1:05:38 > 1:05:42education they are supposed to. Instead they were receiving half of

1:05:42 > 1:05:47that amount. This would seriously hamper the rehabilitation of these

1:05:47 > 1:05:52young men and also increase the chances of them reoffending. Another

1:05:52 > 1:05:56concern I had was the number of black, Asian and minority near the

1:05:56 > 1:06:00young offenders there and I want to link this to the review from David

1:06:00 > 1:06:05Lammy about improving outcomes in the criminal justice system

1:06:05 > 1:06:12published in September of this year. As stated in the review, black,

1:06:12 > 1:06:15Asian and minority ethnic prisoners make up 3% of the population but

1:06:15 > 1:06:19over 12% of the adult prison population and the proportion of

1:06:19 > 1:06:28under 18s in custody has risen from 25% in 2006 1041% in 2016. They are

1:06:28 > 1:06:33disproportionately in the criminal justice system and costing taxpayers

1:06:33 > 1:06:39at least 309 million each year. The review by David Lammy highlighted

1:06:39 > 1:06:43three key things for action and these are strengthening the link

1:06:43 > 1:06:47between scrutiny and decision making on fairness of the system and that

1:06:47 > 1:06:54means using the principle of explain or reform. If there is not an

1:06:54 > 1:06:56explanation, and evidence -based explanation for the disparities,

1:06:56 > 1:07:03they should be addressed through reform. Addressing trust deficit, it

1:07:03 > 1:07:08was found more than half of the British-born BME people believe

1:07:08 > 1:07:10criminal justice system discriminates against particular

1:07:10 > 1:07:16groups compared to 35% of British born white people. Identifying where

1:07:16 > 1:07:20responsibilities lie beyond the criminal justice system, such as

1:07:20 > 1:07:24with parenting, that exploitation of young people and closer working with

1:07:24 > 1:07:27communities to hold offenders to account. The review made 35

1:07:27 > 1:07:32recommendations and looked at ways these relate to prison among other

1:07:32 > 1:07:39areas for preventing reoffending. Touching on some of the

1:07:39 > 1:07:43recommendations, one of which was collecting data, I would like to

1:07:43 > 1:07:50know what the Government's plan to do in relation to collecting and

1:07:50 > 1:07:53disclosing data on ethnicity of prisoners and offenders? Concerns

1:07:53 > 1:07:59around issues of basic screening and resettlement and I am aware of

1:07:59 > 1:08:02problems faced by rehabilitation centres and subcontractors in

1:08:02 > 1:08:06receiving data to help them informed their view about what help a

1:08:06 > 1:08:10prisoner may need for resettlement. I'm firmly of the view more

1:08:10 > 1:08:14investment is needed for resettlement to work in prison. As

1:08:14 > 1:08:17honourable members have mentioned already, there are serious concerns

1:08:17 > 1:08:22about the state of some of the older prisons with living conditions being

1:08:22 > 1:08:25poor and inadequate. Honourable members may have recently read about

1:08:25 > 1:08:28the appalling conditions at HMP Liverpool will stop another concern

1:08:28 > 1:08:36is the staff in the prisons with 95 out of 104 HMP PS prisons being

1:08:36 > 1:08:41understaffed. There are presently 13% fewer operational prison staff

1:08:41 > 1:08:45than in 2010 and we all know full condiment staff is required to keep

1:08:45 > 1:08:51prisoners safe, protected from violence and reduce drug use in

1:08:51 > 1:08:55prisons. One of the reasons that such a demand for psychoactive drugs

1:08:55 > 1:08:58is the fact many prisoners are locked up for long periods of time.

1:08:58 > 1:09:03It is a widely held view more purposeful activity out of the cells

1:09:03 > 1:09:08is a good way to reduce the demand for drugs. More staffing would help

1:09:08 > 1:09:12keep vulnerable prisoners safe. It is worrying that in 2016 there were

1:09:12 > 1:09:21120 suicides in prison, doubled the number from 2012.

1:09:21 > 1:09:28We need to give prison staff safe as well. In the 12 months prior to

1:09:28 > 1:09:35March 2017, there was a 32% increase in assaults on staff on the previous

1:09:35 > 1:09:3912 month period. In conclusion, the minister has a lot of work to do if

1:09:39 > 1:09:46they want to reduce reoffending in our prisons in the future.Prison

1:09:46 > 1:09:50safety and reform will continue to be major priorities for the justice

1:09:50 > 1:09:53committee until the challenges facing prisons are stabilised. I

1:09:53 > 1:09:57want to focus on the issue of Governor empowerment and an young

1:09:57 > 1:10:04adults in our prisons. The rise in assaults, self harm, self-inflicted

1:10:04 > 1:10:08deaths are all unsurprising with rising prisoner numbers, over

1:10:08 > 1:10:14occupied prisons, understaffing, and the wave of psychoactive drugs

1:10:14 > 1:10:16washing over prisons, which has been happening over the last couple of

1:10:16 > 1:10:22years. But how can the system turned prisoners' lives around when too

1:10:22 > 1:10:28many are locked up the 22 hours a day and unable to reach education,

1:10:28 > 1:10:33treatment or work? And these challenges are major for prison

1:10:33 > 1:10:40governors, but also for ministers, those in the MOJ, and those in the

1:10:40 > 1:10:45prisons and probation service. Back in the Queen's Speech of 2016,

1:10:45 > 1:10:49prisons were plans to be independent legal entities with the power to

1:10:49 > 1:10:53enter into contracts, generate income and appoint their own boards.

1:10:53 > 1:10:58Both the Secretary of State at one of his ministers more recently has

1:10:58 > 1:11:02said that ministers remain committed to continuing working towards making

1:11:02 > 1:11:08prisons places of safety but also of reforming them. Now the justice

1:11:08 > 1:11:13committee on which I have been sitting since September agrees that

1:11:13 > 1:11:17the prison management and provision of safe and secure prison conditions

1:11:17 > 1:11:22that promote rehabilitation are complex activities that must be well

1:11:22 > 1:11:26grounded in evidence. And I would add what is crucially important is

1:11:26 > 1:11:31adequate resources. I remember once upon a time there were ideas that

1:11:31 > 1:11:35governors could be incentivised to reduce reoffending rates of those

1:11:35 > 1:11:41released from their own establishments. Even now there are

1:11:41 > 1:11:45many good examples of positive good practice taking place in prison and

1:11:45 > 1:11:51many of those have been mentioned by members here today. But overarching

1:11:51 > 1:11:55this, there appears to be no joined up strategy on rehabilitation or

1:11:55 > 1:12:02even of reform. When the prison system appears to be always in

1:12:02 > 1:12:07crisis management mode. This is exactly the time when there needs to

1:12:07 > 1:12:16be clear lines of accountability between the Ministry of Justice,

1:12:16 > 1:12:26NPPS and prison members. To members of the justice department, these

1:12:26 > 1:12:32lines seem to be fuzzy at best. What is the current status of devolution

1:12:32 > 1:12:36to governors? What the board governors been given to prevent the

1:12:36 > 1:12:40power agenda? Where is the review of reformed prisons? And overarching

1:12:40 > 1:12:48this, where are the leaders and who gets upset when there are failures?

1:12:48 > 1:12:51And I want to move on to young adults in the criminal justice

1:12:51 > 1:12:57system and I draw the attention of the House to the people who

1:12:57 > 1:13:02initiated the transition to adult that alliance. Young adults aged 18

1:13:02 > 1:13:06to 25 are distinct group. Only 10% of the general population but

1:13:06 > 1:13:11accounting for 17% of those sent to prison every year. Admittedly a drop

1:13:11 > 1:13:15from a quarter but still too many at a key stage in their lives, their

1:13:15 > 1:13:19vulnerable lives. We know that when policymakers, sentences and

1:13:19 > 1:13:23practitioners take into account development or majority and the

1:13:23 > 1:13:27particular needs of young adults, research shows they are more likely

1:13:27 > 1:13:35to grow out of crime. These results were reflected in a key

1:13:35 > 1:13:39recommendation of the justice committee in its inquiry of young

1:13:39 > 1:13:46adults and 2016. Add a week ago, the MOJ released a study that supports

1:13:46 > 1:13:48transition to adulthood's long-standing campaign to take

1:13:48 > 1:13:55account of young adults' maturity in our service design and delivery.

1:13:55 > 1:13:58Given the research findings, what assurance can the government gave

1:13:58 > 1:14:02that it would provided a distinct regime for young adult offenders as

1:14:02 > 1:14:08proposed by the alliance and the justice committee? And in

1:14:08 > 1:14:12conclusion, we all have to ask ourselves what our prisons for? I

1:14:12 > 1:14:15would hope that instead of just warehousing prisoners as too often

1:14:15 > 1:14:21seems to be the case, the Secretary of State for Justice and the prisons

1:14:21 > 1:14:24minister will themselves take responsibility for ensuring our

1:14:24 > 1:14:32prisons are humane, safe, turn lives around and reduce reoffending.I

1:14:32 > 1:14:37hope given the short time that I will restrict my comments to

1:14:37 > 1:14:43conditions at my local prison, Wormwood Scrubs, especially as this

1:14:43 > 1:14:46debate coincides with the publication of the independent

1:14:46 > 1:14:51monitoring report last week. Let me start by paying tribute to the

1:14:51 > 1:14:54chairman of the board. And his members and his predecessor. They

1:14:54 > 1:15:01have done an excellent job and so do the majority of staff at the prison

1:15:01 > 1:15:07who show dedication and professionalism. I was initially

1:15:07 > 1:15:10heartened by this press release which said there would be positive

1:15:10 > 1:15:14changes in some areas such as a deduction of more CCTV and a new

1:15:14 > 1:15:18system for prisoners to access their property. It is right that in July

1:15:18 > 1:15:24this year Wormwood Scrubs went from grade one, the worst grade, and I am

1:15:24 > 1:15:29thankful only a handful of prisons are at that level at any one time,

1:15:29 > 1:15:33to great two, but I am afraid that is probably where the good news

1:15:33 > 1:15:37stops. We have got to be very frank about this. There is nothing new

1:15:37 > 1:15:41about problems that Wormwood Scrubs. Many years ago there were problems

1:15:41 > 1:15:45of violence against prisoners and there had been poor management in

1:15:45 > 1:15:51the past. The report in April last year talked about them being rat

1:15:51 > 1:15:53infested and overcrowded, with some prisoners being too frightened to

1:15:53 > 1:16:00leave their cells. The difficulty is that the problems now very

1:16:00 > 1:16:06specifically around underfunding and quality services and low numbers of

1:16:06 > 1:16:10staff, despite what we are told by the government is increasing staff,

1:16:10 > 1:16:12they have now cut it back dramatically under the coalition

1:16:12 > 1:16:20government. There were 57 members of staff out and only 21 in last year.

1:16:20 > 1:16:26Let me give a flavour of what I am talking about. Complaints made by

1:16:26 > 1:16:29prisoners are sometimes handled inappropriately or passed to the

1:16:29 > 1:16:33staff member who was the subject of the complaint. Lack of maintenance

1:16:33 > 1:16:36means that prisoners are frequently subjected to conditions that are

1:16:36 > 1:16:44indecent, not suitable for them to live in. Health. Unacceptable delays

1:16:44 > 1:16:53in accessing medical treatment. Care UK, not able to provide staff for

1:16:53 > 1:16:57triage and screening processes. Looking at the key issue of safety,

1:16:57 > 1:17:0240 to 50 violent incidents in a typical month, 25% of which are

1:17:02 > 1:17:07gang-related, the second highest number of prisoners moved by Tornado

1:17:07 > 1:17:12teams, four deaths in custody. There is a terrible contract are

1:17:12 > 1:17:14culturally and responsible for maintenance who are always

1:17:14 > 1:17:24criticised. Beds import conditions, -- beds in poor conditions, no

1:17:24 > 1:17:27working urinal is in parts of the prison, medieval conditions that

1:17:27 > 1:17:35people are living in. If I look at the education services, back in

1:17:35 > 1:17:39June, 24% attendance rate at classes, the library closed for

1:17:39 > 1:17:49several weeks because the contract could not fix something there. The

1:17:49 > 1:17:52art is based in the Governor's Althouse outside the prison but

1:17:52 > 1:17:56there is no art teaching going on inside the prison. These are

1:17:56 > 1:18:00terrible condition. Let me draw your attention to other aspects that have

1:18:00 > 1:18:03given me terrible concern. It has the worst record in London for

1:18:03 > 1:18:08accessing legal help. What that actually means in practice when

1:18:08 > 1:18:11solicitors are trying to see clients, and I'm quoting all the

1:18:11 > 1:18:15time from the report here, prisoners are effectively being denied access

1:18:15 > 1:18:22to legal advice. I would ask the minister to particular look at that.

1:18:22 > 1:18:26That is not acceptable in any of our prisons where prisoners are going to

1:18:26 > 1:18:32court. This is a 45% remand prison in that way. The last point I want

1:18:32 > 1:18:40to make is in relation to rehabilitation. I am afraid... To

1:18:40 > 1:18:48quote on this, the private community rehabilitation company, NTC Novo,

1:18:48 > 1:18:54which I remember was not a good appointment, does not sufficiently

1:18:54 > 1:18:56engage with prisoners before they are released and far too many are

1:18:56 > 1:19:01released without any accommodation to go to. Is it any wonder that

1:19:01 > 1:19:05reoffending rates are what they are when this is the background? It is

1:19:05 > 1:19:19not an accident that we are talking about companies like Care UK, C and

1:19:19 > 1:19:25Carillion. We were told there would be a prisons revolution but the

1:19:25 > 1:19:27Justice Secretary did not stay around long enough. It is hard for

1:19:27 > 1:19:32him to be the underdog that I champion but he was following the

1:19:32 > 1:19:37member for Epsom and Ewell, which is a tip, follow that member into a

1:19:37 > 1:19:43job! What is this minister going to do to address the appalling

1:19:43 > 1:19:50conditions taking place every day in our prisons?I want to concentrate

1:19:50 > 1:19:54on just one aspect of the prison system and that is the workforce.

1:19:54 > 1:19:58Prison officers are working with people with complex mental health

1:19:58 > 1:20:02issues, people that have experienced trauma throughout their lives, and

1:20:02 > 1:20:04working day in and day out with people who might assault them,

1:20:04 > 1:20:08keeping watch over people who want to end their lives, at the forefront

1:20:08 > 1:20:13of organised crime and drugs, they have got to work in high conflict

1:20:13 > 1:20:16and high tension situations, and they suffer intolerable abuse.

1:20:16 > 1:20:28Prison officers have told me

1:20:29 > 1:20:31about unbelievable and disgusting practice named potting where prison

1:20:31 > 1:20:34officers stop a bucket of excrement over the head of a prison officer

1:20:34 > 1:20:36and they are routinely spat at. Today 20 staff on the prison assault

1:20:36 > 1:20:39are assaulted every day but somehow they are not seen as front line

1:20:39 > 1:20:41workers. I would like to challenge that in the strongest terms. Their

1:20:41 > 1:20:44workers behind closed doors but their heroics should be seen and

1:20:44 > 1:20:48valued in the same way as other public sector workers. The increase

1:20:48 > 1:20:52in violence and tension in prisons cannot of course be seen in a

1:20:52 > 1:20:57vacuum. It is part of the perfect storm that has been mentioned today.

1:20:57 > 1:21:03Huge cuts to prison staff, massive increase in the drug Spice and the

1:21:03 > 1:21:06historically high prison population. There have been thousands of prison

1:21:06 > 1:21:10officer jobs cut and I know there has been an effort to recruit more,

1:21:10 > 1:21:14and this is certainly welcomed, but we must and knowledge that they

1:21:14 > 1:21:17enter the service are very different terms and conditions to those with

1:21:17 > 1:21:22longer service and even those with longer service have had their terms

1:21:22 > 1:21:25and conditions radically altered. They are now expected to work much

1:21:25 > 1:21:28longer and recruitment drives inside the capacity to retain the new

1:21:28 > 1:21:34recruits remains in question. I agree with the PO a that 68 is too

1:21:34 > 1:21:40relate the retirement age for such a strenuous and stressful job and I

1:21:40 > 1:21:45support their members to challenge that increased pension age. -- I

1:21:45 > 1:21:57agree with the POA that 68 is too late retirement age. A prison

1:21:57 > 1:22:02officer who I met recently said that their pay was only £13 better off

1:22:02 > 1:22:07today than seven years ago, and this is somebody with 30 years of

1:22:07 > 1:22:11service. That surely cannot be right. Staff shortages are more

1:22:11 > 1:22:15pronounced in the south but those shortages impact on other regions,

1:22:15 > 1:22:19in particular in the North East through the detached duty system. If

1:22:19 > 1:22:22I can get anything out of the debate I would like clarity and assurance

1:22:22 > 1:22:26that the minister will look into this system. A system which sees

1:22:26 > 1:22:30prison officers from my region being asked to work away for prolonged

1:22:30 > 1:22:34periods of time, staying in hotel rooms, being sent to prisons where

1:22:34 > 1:22:37there is not a long-standing relationship with the prisoners,

1:22:37 > 1:22:44where they have no in-depth understanding or knowledge of their

1:22:44 > 1:22:46needs and issues and personalities, making those shifts more precarious.

1:22:46 > 1:22:51The justice select committee found within the 13 months of this scheme

1:22:51 > 1:22:54it cost £63.5 million to the taxpayer and I would like to know

1:22:54 > 1:22:59how much that system has cost to date. If the department should not

1:22:59 > 1:23:02have considered spending that money on incentivising the jobs better and

1:23:02 > 1:23:07making it more likely that people in the southward of life. Many workers

1:23:07 > 1:23:11in the north only accept detached duty because of their own dwindling

1:23:11 > 1:23:15pay, I am told. If we are serious about addressing the crisis in our

1:23:15 > 1:23:18prisons we must start with the workers and make sure they are

1:23:18 > 1:23:23working in safe conditions and that safety is in numbers, I believe.

1:23:23 > 1:23:27There is a concerted effort to keep more experienced workers alongside

1:23:27 > 1:23:32newer staff. Through the cutbacks we have lost far too much

1:23:32 > 1:23:35organisational knowledge and experience in our prison service and

1:23:35 > 1:23:40there must be acknowledgement that this is strenuous front line job.

1:23:40 > 1:23:44And to make these people work until 68 with that really difficult

1:23:44 > 1:23:47fitness test is completely untenable. And it will be more

1:23:47 > 1:23:53expensive for the service to things like temporary injury benefits and

1:23:53 > 1:23:57medical inefficiency payments. We have got to value these workers by

1:23:57 > 1:23:59turning the prison service into a career again rather than just a job

1:23:59 > 1:24:04and we must do this by stopping wasting millions and millions of

1:24:04 > 1:24:07pounds in short-term sticking plaster solutions and really invest

1:24:07 > 1:24:12in the workforce.

1:24:12 > 1:24:21Can I congratulate the honourable gentleman for setting the scene so

1:24:21 > 1:24:23well and for all the very constructive contributions from all

1:24:23 > 1:24:34members from both sides of the Chamber?

1:24:45 > 1:24:49I am very much in the schools at prisons have a key part in the

1:24:49 > 1:24:59structure and a twofold manner. I think of the three Rs, retribution

1:24:59 > 1:25:04for the prisoner because he has done wrong and jail is what the court has

1:25:04 > 1:25:09decided, but alongside that, you need the other part of the three Rs,

1:25:09 > 1:25:14rehabilitation and training. If you have those two things, you have a

1:25:14 > 1:25:17genuine chance of turning people around. I want to see that process

1:25:17 > 1:25:22as part of what we are trying to achieve through the legislation and

1:25:22 > 1:25:28this committee as well. When we look at the raising number of suicides,

1:25:28 > 1:25:33we cannot ignore them and every member has referred to them. They

1:25:33 > 1:25:41have doubled since 2013. The prison population has also doubled and

1:25:41 > 1:25:49suicide in prisons is higher than in the general population. Outside of

1:25:49 > 1:26:00prison, 120 per 100,000 of its suicide is against 10.8 outside. The

1:26:00 > 1:26:04Minister will perhaps respond to it and see what we can do in relation

1:26:04 > 1:26:10to that. The Prison Reform Trust, prisons are more than 7000 people

1:26:10 > 1:26:15more than capacity and assaults, the honourable lady before me, she spoke

1:26:15 > 1:26:19of the prison officers, very much one of the things I am aware of

1:26:19 > 1:26:25because of people in my constituency, they are subject to

1:26:25 > 1:26:30assaults on a regular basis. I am conscious of that as well. The

1:26:30 > 1:26:38increase in assaults, some reports say some prisons have offices

1:26:38 > 1:26:44outnumbered three to one. We must develop the inmates so they are

1:26:44 > 1:26:51beneficial members of society, those who have unfortunately been involved

1:26:51 > 1:26:54in assaulting prison officers, how we change it around, the honourable

1:26:54 > 1:26:59lady not in her place at this moment, one of the things she

1:26:59 > 1:27:02referred to, gardening, and some of the work done in prisons and the

1:27:02 > 1:27:07minister responded by giving her the opportunity to be the judge of that.

1:27:07 > 1:27:11There are things that can be done but we're not seeing enough of it.

1:27:11 > 1:27:15It is also important we must work our hardest to prevent those who

1:27:15 > 1:27:19have served time from becoming repeat offenders. How important it

1:27:19 > 1:27:26is to address that issue. It is how we do that in a way that is

1:27:26 > 1:27:30compassionate, direct, efficient and works. The fact 26% of those who

1:27:30 > 1:27:43have served time to reoffend within six months provides us an example of

1:27:43 > 1:27:46how prison system has failed them. Only one in four have a job upon

1:27:46 > 1:27:48release, only one in five employees say they would likely exclude them

1:27:48 > 1:27:51from the recruitment process... They cannot get accommodation. We have

1:27:51 > 1:27:56very important issues to address. We are witnessing a dramatic change in

1:27:56 > 1:28:00the operation of our prisons with less staff being responsible. Again,

1:28:00 > 1:28:06I say this very gently, and hopefully graciously, but we have

1:28:06 > 1:28:12not seen the number of staff increasing in the prisons that we

1:28:12 > 1:28:17should have seen. There is a dearth of over 2000. Not enough have been

1:28:17 > 1:28:26recruited. I believe 27% of front line staff leave their role before

1:28:26 > 1:28:31two years of service. What are we doing to keep them on board? We must

1:28:31 > 1:28:37establish a support system that helps new staff acclimatise, not

1:28:37 > 1:28:43simply leave. I finish with this, the significantly higher levels of

1:28:43 > 1:28:49mental health issues in prisons, unbelievable 26% for women and 16%

1:28:49 > 1:28:51of men have received or are currently receiving treatment for

1:28:51 > 1:28:56mental health in the first year of their sentence, we all want the same

1:28:56 > 1:29:01thing, everyone in the Chamber, and it is how we achieve that. I look to

1:29:01 > 1:29:07the Minister for his response. We are here to sub for you.-- to

1:29:07 > 1:29:11support you. Before I called a spokesman for the Scottish National

1:29:11 > 1:29:16Party, I am sure it does not compromise my impartiality in the

1:29:16 > 1:29:20chair if I wish him and his colleagues in Paisley the very best

1:29:20 > 1:29:27of luck for the very exciting announcement which will come out in

1:29:27 > 1:29:35about four and a half hours' time about which town or city will be the

1:29:35 > 1:29:42City of Culture 2021. I hope it is going to be Paisley. Good luck!

1:29:42 > 1:29:54Thank you. I was concerned I would be unable to shoehorn a mention of

1:29:54 > 1:29:58Paisley 2021 into the prison reform speech. Thank you, you have done it

1:29:58 > 1:30:03for me. I will carry your wishes back home on the flight, if I make

1:30:03 > 1:30:09it. It is an honour to follow the honourable member. A relatively new

1:30:09 > 1:30:12member of the Justice Select Committee and some of my

1:30:12 > 1:30:17contribution today will be based on my short experience of being a

1:30:17 > 1:30:23member, I should know I am speaking from the front bench of the SNP and

1:30:23 > 1:30:27I will have to tailor my remarks appropriately. The small matter of

1:30:27 > 1:30:31prison reform has dominated much of the work of the Justice Committee

1:30:31 > 1:30:34since I was appointed after the general election and it will

1:30:34 > 1:30:38continue to feature heavily in the coming weeks and months. However,

1:30:38 > 1:30:42this work is not new to the committee, given its good work on

1:30:42 > 1:30:46this issue in the last session, scrutinising reforms which have been

1:30:46 > 1:30:49put forward by previous Justice Secretary is, the Queen's Speech

1:30:49 > 1:30:52earlier this year was a missed opportunity for the Government to

1:30:52 > 1:31:02introduce

1:31:03 > 1:31:06a bill to continue the reforms of the English and Welsh prison

1:31:06 > 1:31:08services. This was unfortunate as the evidence is clear and the

1:31:08 > 1:31:10committee saw for itself last week the prison service is facing very

1:31:10 > 1:31:13real challenges in the Government cannot be distracted by Brexit at

1:31:13 > 1:31:15the expense of modernising the justice systems of England and

1:31:15 > 1:31:18Wales. Despite performance being wide-ranging, I would like to

1:31:18 > 1:31:22confine my remarks to attempt to keep your blood of the criminal

1:31:22 > 1:31:25justice system including attempts to reduce reoffending. The goal of

1:31:25 > 1:31:29keeping people out of prison is a basic premise I'm sure we can all

1:31:29 > 1:31:32agree on. It is good for the individual but vital for wider

1:31:32 > 1:31:39society and economy. Prison is a route appropriate for serious crimes

1:31:39 > 1:31:43but detaining an individual should not be seen as an automatic result

1:31:43 > 1:31:48for anyone who commits a crime. Reducing the prison population is a

1:31:48 > 1:31:55key feature of the Government's reforms, it is easy to see why that

1:31:55 > 1:32:00is the case. An exceedingly high prison population is not uncommon in

1:32:00 > 1:32:03most western democracies but it is still worth noting the total prison

1:32:03 > 1:32:09population in England and Wales on the 1st of March this year was just

1:32:09 > 1:32:13over 8500 people. The recent population trend is cause for great

1:32:13 > 1:32:18concern and there will be a major influence on the reforms the

1:32:18 > 1:32:22Government eventually introduces. An exceedingly high prison population

1:32:22 > 1:32:27serves little good, not good for society, economy, the taxpayer, not

1:32:27 > 1:32:33good for the offender in many cases or the victim. The current prison

1:32:33 > 1:32:36population of England and Wales raises difficult questions and as we

1:32:36 > 1:32:40seek to confront it, we should be asking ourselves whether we are

1:32:40 > 1:32:45detaining the right people or whether the system considers prison

1:32:45 > 1:32:50time to be the automatic outcome for those who commit crimes. The CPS has

1:32:50 > 1:32:53spoken of significant changes affecting the prison service,

1:32:53 > 1:32:57chiefly the prison population has doubled in the last 30 years, while

1:32:57 > 1:33:00subsequent governments have failed to protect funding and staffing

1:33:00 > 1:33:06numbers. It helps to create a much more difficult, stressful and

1:33:06 > 1:33:10dangerous working environment in the prison service. I repeat most other

1:33:10 > 1:33:14European countries are facing similar problems but we should take

1:33:14 > 1:33:19note of the Council of Europe report concluding the UK has the highest

1:33:19 > 1:33:25prison population rate in western Europe. Of around 148 inmates per

1:33:25 > 1:33:31100,000 citizens, well above the European average of 134. In

1:33:31 > 1:33:34Scotland, wheels face similar challenges with our prison

1:33:34 > 1:33:38population -- we also face. The daily average prison population has

1:33:38 > 1:33:49decreased in the last five years falling by over 8% from 8179, in

1:33:49 > 1:33:552011-12, and in addition, in the same period, the young offender

1:33:55 > 1:33:58population has almost halved with numbers for remand and sentence

1:33:58 > 1:34:04prisoners also dropping. The Scottish Government are not

1:34:04 > 1:34:09complacent and at a time when crime is at a 41 year low and reoffending

1:34:09 > 1:34:13is the lowest in 16 years, the prison population is still far too

1:34:13 > 1:34:20high, particularly among female offenders. Delighted.Can I pay

1:34:20 > 1:34:25tribute to my honourable friend who has run an excellent campaign for

1:34:25 > 1:34:30his 2021? I hope he gets the news he is looking for tonight. I commend

1:34:30 > 1:34:32the Scottish Government and the Justice Secretary for the

1:34:32 > 1:34:38progressive approach they have put towards women in the prison system

1:34:38 > 1:34:42and the extra money for community justice services for women.I could

1:34:42 > 1:34:47not agree more. In addition to that, we are going to close the prison in

1:34:47 > 1:34:562020 and demolish the old facility and move 80, I think, women who need

1:34:56 > 1:35:01more secure needs to a new facility and five new community facilities,

1:35:01 > 1:35:08such as the £1.2 million additional investment. Another area where the

1:35:08 > 1:35:11UK Government may want to take inspiration from the Scottish

1:35:11 > 1:35:16Government is the policy of a presumption against short sentences.

1:35:16 > 1:35:21It was recently augmented in the programme for government and a plan

1:35:21 > 1:35:24to consult on an extension to presumption from three months to 12

1:35:24 > 1:35:29months. Overwhelming evidence confirms short sentences simply do

1:35:29 > 1:35:34not work. They disrupt families, communities, restrict employment

1:35:34 > 1:35:38opportunities and make it harder for individuals to access housing.

1:35:38 > 1:35:41Short-term sentencing does nothing for reoffending rates and the

1:35:41 > 1:35:48absolute opposite is the case. They do not make a sensible use of all

1:35:48 > 1:35:52too scarce public resources. The Scottish Government's extension of

1:35:52 > 1:35:56the presumption against short sentences has the real opportunity

1:35:56 > 1:35:58to play Scotland at the forefront of introducing transformative justice

1:35:58 > 1:36:05system. Community justice Scotland has commented on the Scottish

1:36:05 > 1:36:09Government's policy saying, a smart justice system replaces ineffective

1:36:09 > 1:36:13short sentences with a focus on addiction, mental health, poverty,

1:36:13 > 1:36:17social exclusion and adverse childhood experiences and recognises

1:36:17 > 1:36:22prevention is better than cure. This move by the Scottish Government has

1:36:22 > 1:36:26been welcomed by the former Deputy First Minister of Scotland and

1:36:26 > 1:36:31Liberal Democrat peer of the other place, the upside down, as I like to

1:36:31 > 1:36:37call it, Lord Wallace. I think I get away with that! He said the policy

1:36:37 > 1:36:40was a welcome and imaginative extension of the presumption against

1:36:40 > 1:36:46short sentences. A former Labour minister also supports the policy,

1:36:46 > 1:36:52saying 60% of those imprisoned for months or less reoffend within the

1:36:52 > 1:36:56year. It is not only helping to reduce the prison population but

1:36:56 > 1:37:04doing so in a way helping to tackle reoffending rates. The UK

1:37:04 > 1:37:07Government's previous white paper placed a strong emphasis on

1:37:07 > 1:37:10preparing prisoners for life after death sentence has come to an end

1:37:10 > 1:37:14and helping to support them change their behaviour. I support many of

1:37:14 > 1:37:19the Government's names such as tackling health and substance misuse

1:37:19 > 1:37:25and preparing them for life after prison and education and training

1:37:25 > 1:37:29but it is important we fund and support the projects, voluntary

1:37:29 > 1:37:33groups and charities who can effectively evidence the positive

1:37:33 > 1:37:38impact the work has on changing the lives of prisoners. The SNP

1:37:38 > 1:37:42Westminster spokesperson for sport, as someone who has always been

1:37:42 > 1:37:45involved with sport, I believe governments of all colours should be

1:37:45 > 1:37:48tapping into the power of sport to help change attitudes and

1:37:48 > 1:37:53behaviours. Rugby man, I'm interested in the work Saracens

1:37:53 > 1:37:58Rugby have done to help reduce reoffending rates. They quite

1:37:58 > 1:38:02rightly point out 70% of young offenders leaving prison in England

1:38:02 > 1:38:10and Wales will reoffend within 12 months. Primarily because of lack of

1:38:10 > 1:38:15aspirations, support and no role models. Saracens have a programme,

1:38:15 > 1:38:19it uses the power of rugby to improve the life chances of young

1:38:19 > 1:38:27people leaving prison. It looks to build career aspirations, provide a

1:38:27 > 1:38:33mentor, links to local sports club and assisting educational routes and

1:38:33 > 1:38:36employment which will in turn give them a sense of belonging and

1:38:36 > 1:38:40surrounds them in a positive environment. The success rate of the

1:38:40 > 1:38:45programme is 92%. They do not return to crime, saving the government and

1:38:45 > 1:38:53taxpayer £1 million per year.

1:38:53 > 1:38:57On the website they published a quote from a participant which said

1:38:57 > 1:39:02the programme taught me belief and direction and that I must be true to

1:39:02 > 1:39:07myself to believe. This programme and others like it show how we can

1:39:07 > 1:39:15use the power of the bought the for tangible benefits. Sport can help

1:39:15 > 1:39:19rehabilitate offenders and it can play an important mobility of role

1:39:19 > 1:39:25that can keep people of all genders away from reoffending. We should

1:39:25 > 1:39:28incorporate sport into the wider reform agenda. The UK Government

1:39:28 > 1:39:36moves forward with reforms and it is mindful to note that it has a

1:39:36 > 1:39:38responsibility to wider society, ensuring communities are safe and

1:39:38 > 1:39:42wrong doing is dealt with in an appropriate manner. However this

1:39:42 > 1:39:46agenda also has a responsibility to those working in the justice system

1:39:46 > 1:39:52and I have to say it is the fact that the number of serious assaults

1:39:52 > 1:39:56on officers in Scottish prisons is 90%, 90% lower than in prisons in

1:39:56 > 1:40:00England and Wales. This is mainly due to the number of officers in the

1:40:00 > 1:40:05system due to the fact that we didn't cut the funding for officers.

1:40:05 > 1:40:10I hope the minister can expand on answers he gave to me recently.

1:40:10 > 1:40:15Given the increase of more than 1300 in the prison population in England

1:40:15 > 1:40:21and Wales, was 2500 officers enough? The target was based on careful

1:40:21 > 1:40:27analysis of what we need, and the model of one prison officer having a

1:40:27 > 1:40:30six prison caseload, and that should be capable of allowing us to do so.

1:40:30 > 1:40:35I would like the minister to give more information on that. Was the

1:40:35 > 1:40:402500 figure arrived at assuming an increase of 1300 in the prison

1:40:40 > 1:40:44population? If so more prison officers need to be hired using the

1:40:44 > 1:40:47one in six ratio. We want to keep people out of prison and this has

1:40:47 > 1:40:53got to include preventative policies that help identify and tackle those

1:40:53 > 1:40:57at risk of offending. I can only hope that as the UK Government moves

1:40:57 > 1:41:04forward in this process, it will reject going down a flawed

1:41:04 > 1:41:08ideological driven approach and will go down and evidence based approach,

1:41:08 > 1:41:11taking on board recommendations made by the Justice Secretary to ensure

1:41:11 > 1:41:17that English and Welsh justice systems are able to operate in an

1:41:17 > 1:41:23efficient manner.I would like to begin by congratulating the justice

1:41:23 > 1:41:26committee and its chair, the member for Bromley and Chislehurst, and all

1:41:26 > 1:41:32the other members of the committee for all their work, and for securing

1:41:32 > 1:41:36today's debate. I previously sat on the committee and it was a most

1:41:36 > 1:41:41valuable experience. The select committee has repeatedly shone a

1:41:41 > 1:41:43spotlight on the ongoing crisis affecting much of our justice system

1:41:43 > 1:41:47and I do believe its work will become more important over the

1:41:47 > 1:41:53coming months, given that the MOJ budget is set to be cut by another

1:41:53 > 1:41:57£800 million, meaning 40% over the decade to 2020, making the MOJ the

1:41:57 > 1:42:02most cut of any government department. That's turning to

1:42:02 > 1:42:05today's topic, our prisons have received vast amount of media

1:42:05 > 1:42:10coverage over the last year, nearly always the wrong reasons. Crisis has

1:42:10 > 1:42:14been used time after time as a descriptive but I believe it is no

1:42:14 > 1:42:20longer sufficient. We have warned of crisis for five years. Crisis is

1:42:20 > 1:42:23unfortunately the new norm. Staff holding the service together are

1:42:23 > 1:42:27expected to do crisis management and the truth is that our prisons are

1:42:27 > 1:42:31now moving beyond crisis and approaching emergency. As Peter

1:42:31 > 1:42:35Clarke, the chief inspector of prisons, with whom I had the

1:42:35 > 1:42:39pleasure of undertaking a prison visit, described in his scathing

1:42:39 > 1:42:43annual report, last year I reported that too many of our prisons have

1:42:43 > 1:42:47become unacceptably violent and dangerous places. The situation has

1:42:47 > 1:42:53not improved. In fact it has become worse. Peter Clarke went on to warn

1:42:53 > 1:42:57that not one young offender institute was deemed safe,

1:42:57 > 1:43:02describing the speed of decline is staggering. He described a

1:43:02 > 1:43:05Dickensian prison system with people, in his words, locked up for

1:43:05 > 1:43:10as much a 23 hours a day, compounded by staffing levels that are too low

1:43:10 > 1:43:14to keep order or run a decent regime that allows prisoners to be let out

1:43:14 > 1:43:20of their cells for training and education. I would argue, Madam

1:43:20 > 1:43:22Deputy Speaker, that it is a government policy of slashing

1:43:22 > 1:43:25hundreds of millions from the prison service budget that has driven us to

1:43:25 > 1:43:30the emergency room. But perhaps the starkest example of the prisons

1:43:30 > 1:43:36emergency is what the joint select committee in its sixth report of the

1:43:36 > 1:43:39session described as the ongoing at rapid deterioration in prison

1:43:39 > 1:43:46safety. I think the justice select committee was right to call it that.

1:43:46 > 1:43:49It is a stain on our nation that self harm and suicide are at record

1:43:49 > 1:43:57levels. And assaults are up almost 80% on 2010. Everyday we now have 74

1:43:57 > 1:44:01people attacked in our prisons, which is one every 20 minutes,

1:44:01 > 1:44:07morning, noon and night. Every single day of the year. And the

1:44:07 > 1:44:12consequences, Madam Deputy Speaker, of this violence, are dire. For the

1:44:12 > 1:44:16prisoners locked nearly permanently in their cells to maintain safety,

1:44:16 > 1:44:21it is almost irrelevant if education, training or mental health

1:44:21 > 1:44:23services are improved, because locked in their cells for that

1:44:23 > 1:44:27amount of time, they remain inaccessible, at great cost for the

1:44:27 > 1:44:32wider society. This violence is closely connected to another scene

1:44:32 > 1:44:36addressed by the select committee, empowering governors and prison

1:44:36 > 1:44:41reforms. The government talks reform agenda delivering a modern prison

1:44:41 > 1:44:47state set for the 21st century, of governors managing education budgets

1:44:47 > 1:44:52to help rebuild at eight reason is that none of this will bear fruit

1:44:52 > 1:44:56until the epidemic of violence is tackled. The central cause of the

1:44:56 > 1:45:02prisons emergency has been the loss of staff. Conservative Justice

1:45:02 > 1:45:05Secretary and cut the number of front line prison officers by 7000

1:45:05 > 1:45:13since 2010. Psychoactive substances, drones and phones, they are all

1:45:13 > 1:45:18serious problems in our prisons, but as the POA says, staffing shortages

1:45:18 > 1:45:22drive the wave of violence. I welcome that the government now

1:45:22 > 1:45:28acknowledges the damage done by thousands of prison officers cuts

1:45:28 > 1:45:32and has tried to reverse its own cuts but the staffing picture is not

1:45:32 > 1:45:39as rosy as the government is seeking to portray it. Despite 1200 extra

1:45:39 > 1:45:43officers recruited over the past year, still one in four of our

1:45:43 > 1:45:47prisons have had a fall in officer numbers over the past 12 months.

1:45:47 > 1:45:54That includes staffing cuts at 25% of the prisons labelled as being of

1:45:54 > 1:45:57concern and in high security prisons it is even worse. Half of those

1:45:57 > 1:46:02prisons have fewer officers than they had a year ago. And for all the

1:46:02 > 1:46:06talk of empowering governors, the number of Governor grade staff has

1:46:06 > 1:46:12been cut by over a third and continues to fall. And staffing

1:46:12 > 1:46:16cannot be permanently resolved separately to the issue of pay. The

1:46:16 > 1:46:21insulting 1.7% recent pay offer was yet another real firms pay cut, one

1:46:21 > 1:46:27of £980 per year for the average prison officer. Falling pay is one

1:46:27 > 1:46:30of the reasons why there is an exodus of experienced officers who

1:46:30 > 1:46:34are now leaving at three times the rate they were leaving back in 2010.

1:46:34 > 1:46:42It is why the government policies are creating a dangerous cocktail of

1:46:42 > 1:46:45experienced prisoners and inexperienced prison staff. Today's

1:46:45 > 1:46:50motion also addresses the wider restructuring of our prisons system.

1:46:50 > 1:46:55The government has destabilised the prison system, I would argue,

1:46:55 > 1:46:58through an erratic perform policy that feared first this way and then

1:46:58 > 1:47:03that way. At the same time as prisons were being stripped of

1:47:03 > 1:47:07valuable resources, both human and financial. This hasn't been helped

1:47:07 > 1:47:12by the constant chopping and changing of those at the top. I have

1:47:12 > 1:47:15been Shadow Justice Secretary for just over 18 months and I have

1:47:15 > 1:47:19already dealt with three Justice Secretary, each with their own

1:47:19 > 1:47:26specific vision of course. One of the current Secretary of State's

1:47:26 > 1:47:30first tasks was to toss aside the prison reform bill and the creation

1:47:30 > 1:47:33of the statutory purpose of prisons, which is especially regrettable

1:47:33 > 1:47:37since it had the support of virtually the whole House. But

1:47:37 > 1:47:41although they have scrapped the bill, one thing remains the same.

1:47:41 > 1:47:46The government's answer to the deep problems in the prison service is

1:47:46 > 1:47:50yet more reform. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am a bit sceptical.

1:47:50 > 1:47:54Concerns with how reform have been undertaken work especially well

1:47:54 > 1:48:01expressed by the governors association President who said that

1:48:01 > 1:48:04governors have seen nothing tangible coming out of the MOJ to ease the

1:48:04 > 1:48:10burden to date. They claim that the MOJ reform programme drains

1:48:10 > 1:48:15resources with expensive policy teams in Whitehall and operational

1:48:15 > 1:48:18experts taken out our prisons and put into the MOJ, and competing

1:48:18 > 1:48:24structures that at times do undermine accountability. In short,

1:48:24 > 1:48:29if real powers rest in new Whitehall teams, if budgets are cut and

1:48:29 > 1:48:32central contracts restrict freedom of decision, then governors are not

1:48:32 > 1:48:38in charge in the way that they should be. So despite talks of

1:48:38 > 1:48:42greater autonomy, prison governors are still suffering the lack of

1:48:42 > 1:48:45control that arose from outsourcing key prison services to the private

1:48:45 > 1:48:49sector. The hiving off of facility management and repairs is

1:48:49 > 1:48:54undermining basic decency in our prisons when prisons are remarking

1:48:54 > 1:48:58it is easy to get drugs than it is to get clean clothing. When

1:48:58 > 1:49:02prisoners go for long periods without properly functioning showers

1:49:02 > 1:49:07or a broken cell window, this does nothing to build the necessary

1:49:07 > 1:49:14institutional trust. It actually makes reforming lives much harder.

1:49:14 > 1:49:17So Labour hasn't just ruled out any more private prisons, we have also

1:49:17 > 1:49:22committed to a review working with prison governors to identify the

1:49:22 > 1:49:25private maintenance and repair contracts that can be brought back

1:49:25 > 1:49:29in-house overtime which would save the state money and improve prison

1:49:29 > 1:49:33conditions. I heard the chair of the justice select committee called for

1:49:33 > 1:49:39an urgent review of these same contracts in the questions earlier

1:49:39 > 1:49:44this week and on this side of the House we fully support his call.

1:49:44 > 1:49:50Madam Deputy Speaker, today's motion quite rightly points out our

1:49:50 > 1:49:54historically high prison population. Prison last act as a deterrent and

1:49:54 > 1:49:59other punishment, yes. Often prison is a fitting sanction, especially

1:49:59 > 1:50:03when a convicted person is a danger to the public. A significant

1:50:03 > 1:50:07minority of people may never be safe to release. But most people will one

1:50:07 > 1:50:15day lead prison so it must also rehabilitate. Too often prison is

1:50:15 > 1:50:19failing to rehabilitate. We now have 10,004 prisoners in jails than we

1:50:19 > 1:50:25have proper places for them. -- 10,000 more prisoners. With

1:50:25 > 1:50:29imitation can't properly take place in overcrowded prisons. The prison

1:50:29 > 1:50:32in Leeds holds twice the number of prisoners it was built to

1:50:32 > 1:50:36accommodate. That is not an exception. The latest figures show

1:50:36 > 1:50:41that almost seven in ten of our prisons are overcrowded. Such

1:50:41 > 1:50:44warehousing of people without any support or access to rehabilitation

1:50:44 > 1:50:48means that when they leave prison, they are likely to be in the same

1:50:48 > 1:50:54position as when they entered, or actually perhaps even worse, drug

1:50:54 > 1:51:05dependent, homeless, without the skills to secure work. Best day in

1:51:05 > 1:51:07prison will be too short to tackle their problems. In fact they may

1:51:07 > 1:51:10actually come out of prison more likely to commit serious crimes. I

1:51:10 > 1:51:13have been struck by the fact that nearly every time they meet a prison

1:51:13 > 1:51:15governor, they tell me we are jailing too many people. That is

1:51:15 > 1:51:19what prison governors are telling me. They ask me why we are using

1:51:19 > 1:51:23vast resources to send someone to prison for a few weeks. They are

1:51:23 > 1:51:26frustrated at seeing the same people over and over when people at the

1:51:26 > 1:51:34front line raise such matters we must all take them very seriously.

1:51:34 > 1:51:40The evidence underlines that for far too many, prison isn't working. Six

1:51:40 > 1:51:43in ten adults released from prison after a sentence of less than ten

1:51:43 > 1:51:47months, which over half of all prisoners receive, commit another

1:51:47 > 1:51:52offence within a year. The cost of reoffending has now hit £15 billion.

1:51:52 > 1:51:57As a society, I think we need to be asking if we should have jailed 8000

1:51:57 > 1:52:02women last year when the overwhelming majority of those 8000

1:52:02 > 1:52:09women committed nonviolent offence. Half of them in prison for that. If

1:52:09 > 1:52:11Britain is about real imitation as well as punishment, what is the

1:52:11 > 1:52:19point of seven in ten women serving 12 weeks or less in jail? -- if

1:52:19 > 1:52:22prison is about rehabilitation as well as punishment. Alternatives to

1:52:22 > 1:52:27that could free up valuable resources to invest in women's

1:52:27 > 1:52:30centres, community solutions, and to make prison work for those who

1:52:30 > 1:52:36really should be there. We also need to tackle discrimination that means

1:52:36 > 1:52:38there is a greater disproportionality in a number of

1:52:38 > 1:52:42black people in our prisons and there is in the prisons in the

1:52:42 > 1:52:47United States of America. It wastes lives as well as viable public

1:52:47 > 1:52:52funding. There are too many prisoners suffering mental health

1:52:52 > 1:52:56problems who need intensive medical treatment, not incarceration, and

1:52:56 > 1:53:01perhaps most immediately, the cases of IPP prisoners that need to be

1:53:01 > 1:53:05tackled as well. We need to be debating all three issues separately

1:53:05 > 1:53:09on another occasion in this chamber. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker,

1:53:09 > 1:53:14we have a huge amount to do to turn our prisons round, to ensure they

1:53:14 > 1:53:20are places where lives are transformed so that our communities

1:53:20 > 1:53:24become safer places to live, which is our main objective. After nearly

1:53:24 > 1:53:27a decade of failed policies that have cut our prison service to the

1:53:27 > 1:53:32bone, this can't be done and would be done overnight, but I do know

1:53:32 > 1:53:36that the justice select committee and their ongoing scrutiny will play

1:53:36 > 1:53:41a valuable role in helping make our prisons work.

1:53:41 > 1:53:47Thank you. Let me begin by congratulating my honourable friend

1:53:47 > 1:53:53and member and indeed the Justice Select Committee for securing this

1:53:53 > 1:53:59debate and I thank them for all the contributions. I can genuinely say

1:53:59 > 1:54:04almost every contribution today has been in good faith and constructive

1:54:04 > 1:54:14and has had something to merit it. My honourable friend, the member for

1:54:14 > 1:54:17Bromley, set out with characteristic clarity many of the issues our

1:54:17 > 1:54:23prisons face today. As we all know, and indeed the member for Leeds

1:54:23 > 1:54:26mentioned, nearly all prisoners will one day be released and our prisons

1:54:26 > 1:54:31should therefore be places that put offenders on a path to turn away

1:54:31 > 1:54:36from crime after release, providing an environment that is safe and

1:54:36 > 1:54:39secure and provide the right interventions and support to help

1:54:39 > 1:54:45them turn around their lives. No one doubts the challenge we face in

1:54:45 > 1:54:50prison or can expect this will be quick or easy to turn around. I do

1:54:50 > 1:54:53not shy away from conceding our prison system faces unprecedented

1:54:53 > 1:55:00challenges. But I am confident we have a clear and coherent plan to

1:55:00 > 1:55:05phase them, a plan to ensure safety and security of our estate and

1:55:05 > 1:55:09staff, empower our governors to make decision is right for their prisons,

1:55:09 > 1:55:14the right tools in place to support offenders to rejoin society as

1:55:14 > 1:55:21productive citizens. The member for Lewisham West and the member for

1:55:21 > 1:55:26Paisley who was no longer in his place referred to the motion and

1:55:26 > 1:55:36specific point that the House ... The present operation is too high,

1:55:36 > 1:55:42we can all agree and we want it to come down. -- the prison population.

1:55:42 > 1:55:47We have made a judgment not to set an arbitrary target because we will

1:55:47 > 1:55:50not compromise our responsibility either to the victims of offences or

1:55:50 > 1:55:56the safety of the wider public. We will always hold in prison criminals

1:55:56 > 1:56:01whose offences are so grave no other penalty will suffice or pose a

1:56:01 > 1:56:05genuine threat to the public if they were released. The member for

1:56:05 > 1:56:12Paisley mentioned we should have a presumption against a prison

1:56:12 > 1:56:17sentence of less than 12 months. Indeed the case in England and Wales

1:56:17 > 1:56:22is there is a presumption against custody at all and the judge would

1:56:22 > 1:56:28only send someone to prison if they deemed it right to do so. It is

1:56:28 > 1:56:33important to remember our current prison population also reflects the

1:56:33 > 1:56:36number of serious offences including sexual offences coming before the

1:56:36 > 1:56:40courts. This has changed the nature of the sentences we are seeing with

1:56:40 > 1:56:46fewer people being sent to prison on shorter sentences, but more people

1:56:46 > 1:56:51in prison for serious on longer sentences. One example, 4000 more

1:56:51 > 1:56:56six offenders in prison in England and Wales than there were in 2010. I

1:56:56 > 1:57:00can assure the House we will lose have enough prison places for

1:57:00 > 1:57:05offenders sentenced custody and the protection of the public in

1:57:05 > 1:57:10providing justice to victims will remain our principal concern. Our

1:57:10 > 1:57:15latest to statistics show we have operational capacity of 87,370 and

1:57:15 > 1:57:22current headroom of 1241 places. The current population is 86,000 1209

1:57:22 > 1:57:30including 4400 and... 4048 women prisoners. We cannot simply build

1:57:30 > 1:57:35our way out of the situation. We have a plan for bringing new

1:57:35 > 1:57:39capacity to provide modern, cost-effective and fit for purpose

1:57:39 > 1:57:42accommodation to deal with the overcrowding concerns mentioned in

1:57:42 > 1:57:48this estate. A prison which currently has 800 places in use when

1:57:48 > 1:57:53fully operational will provide 2100 places and we have announced plans

1:57:53 > 1:58:02to build four more modern prisons. But to address the challenges in our

1:58:02 > 1:58:08prison system, I am clear that we must first...He has talked about

1:58:08 > 1:58:11capacity and I understand that the work being done but can he help

1:58:11 > 1:58:16about specific point raised which is the slowness in repatriation of

1:58:16 > 1:58:20foreign national prisoners, that would take some pressure off

1:58:20 > 1:58:25capacity, can he help on that?The chairman makes an important point

1:58:25 > 1:58:29about the repatriation of foreign national offenders. He is very aware

1:58:29 > 1:58:34the most effective scheme to repatriate foreign offenders is the

1:58:34 > 1:58:41scheme under which many have been moved out of the UK since 2010. The

1:58:41 > 1:58:44prisoner transfer agreements are also in place and that is more

1:58:44 > 1:58:47challenging because it requires the cooperation of the receiving

1:58:47 > 1:58:51government who do not always seem to be that keen to receive their

1:58:51 > 1:58:55criminals back but there is a cross government task force focused on

1:58:55 > 1:59:00this very point. To realise the vision for prisons, we must make

1:59:00 > 1:59:05sure they are secure environments, free from drugs, violence and

1:59:05 > 1:59:09intimidation. I do not shy away from acknowledging the use and

1:59:09 > 1:59:14availability of drugs is too high and this House has often discuss the

1:59:14 > 1:59:18rise of psychoactive substances in the prisons being a game changer.

1:59:18 > 1:59:23But it was when organised crime moved to take control of supply

1:59:23 > 1:59:31routes in prisons that the situation changed. They are driving the drug

1:59:31 > 1:59:36market and making enormous profits, peddling misery to those around

1:59:36 > 1:59:40them. The activities have been facilitated by new technologies such

1:59:40 > 1:59:46as phones and drones which they have used to try to overcome security.

1:59:46 > 1:59:49These represent an unprecedented threat that we have not faced

1:59:49 > 1:59:55before. As our prison officers and law enforcement partners across the

1:59:55 > 1:59:59country are regularly proving, we are more than up to the task of the

1:59:59 > 2:00:02challenge and the investment in security is bearing fruit. Last

2:00:02 > 2:00:08year, HMP offices recovered over 225 kilograms of drugs from the prison

2:00:08 > 2:00:12estate and the new team of specialist drug investigators have

2:00:12 > 2:00:18already helped secure over 50 years of jail time for those involved and

2:00:18 > 2:00:20we are supporting ongoing investigations across the country.

2:00:20 > 2:00:26Providing officers with the tools they need, introducing drug tests

2:00:26 > 2:00:30for psychoactive substances across prisons, providing every prison with

2:00:30 > 2:00:32detection equipment and training more than 300 sniffer dogs

2:00:32 > 2:00:39specifically to detect drugs. A member asked about the availability

2:00:39 > 2:00:43of sniffer dogs specifically to prisons, the dogs operate on a

2:00:43 > 2:00:47regional basis and are therefore available to prisons to call on as

2:00:47 > 2:00:53and when they need them. We are also investing heavily in security and

2:00:53 > 2:00:59counter-terror measures including 25 million to create the new security

2:00:59 > 2:01:05directorate in HMP PS. We will also invest over 14 million this year to

2:01:05 > 2:01:09transform intelligence, such an disruption capability at local,

2:01:09 > 2:01:12national and regional level to better identify and root out those

2:01:12 > 2:01:18who seek to supply drugs to prisons. This investment includes over 3

2:01:18 > 2:01:21million to establish the serious organised crime unit to relentlessly

2:01:21 > 2:01:24disrupt our most subversive offenders. We are already seeing

2:01:24 > 2:01:28early successes from this new capability and a recent joint prison

2:01:28 > 2:01:33service and police operation at HMP Hewell involving specialist search

2:01:33 > 2:01:40teams and dogs recovered 323 items including 79 mobile phones, 29

2:01:40 > 2:01:44improvised weapons, 50 litres of alcohol and a large quantity of

2:01:44 > 2:01:53drugs.He has indicated this is all intelligence led, but actually, it

2:01:53 > 2:02:02should be routine.The honourable member is absolutely right, but you

2:02:02 > 2:02:08need to know what you're looking for, identified the prison most

2:02:08 > 2:02:12likely to have links with organised crime, 6000 have links with

2:02:12 > 2:02:16organised crime on the outside and they are conduits for drugs into

2:02:16 > 2:02:20prisons and it allows us to be more effective in what we do to combat

2:02:20 > 2:02:26it. It is still very early days but the point I'm making is we are

2:02:26 > 2:02:29seeing success and we intend to build on the successes going forward

2:02:29 > 2:02:34with new plans for drugs which the honourable member mentioned but also

2:02:34 > 2:02:39issues to do with corruption, where it exists, even among few officers,

2:02:39 > 2:02:44and we will talk more about that shortly. Of course, on drugs, it is

2:02:44 > 2:02:50not just about seizing or intercepting drugs, we have a duty

2:02:50 > 2:02:55of care to prisoners, we want to help those offenders with drug

2:02:55 > 2:02:59problems and we have more specialist wings to support them to overcome

2:02:59 > 2:03:02dependencies. We are working closely with health partners to provide

2:03:02 > 2:03:07information, guidance and support to prisoners, visitors and staff on the

2:03:07 > 2:03:11impact and damaging consequences of drugs. Safety of our prisoners has

2:03:11 > 2:03:15been mentioned by a number of honourable members. That is in part

2:03:15 > 2:03:19down to having the right staffing levels to deliver safe, consistent

2:03:19 > 2:03:24regime is and we are making swift progress in recruiting the

2:03:24 > 2:03:30additional 2500 staff in the adult estate we promised in 2016. 1255

2:03:30 > 2:03:33extra prison officers have been recruited over the last year and

2:03:33 > 2:03:39officer numbers are now at the highest level since August, 2013. In

2:03:39 > 2:03:44the use estate, we are likewise expanding front line staff capacity

2:03:44 > 2:03:49in the public sector by about 20% -- in the youth estate. Preventing

2:03:49 > 2:03:53suicide and self harm is also a focus of mine and we are taking

2:03:53 > 2:03:57decisive action to reduce the levels of self harm by strengthening the

2:03:57 > 2:04:03front line. Each individual incident of suicide or self harm is one too

2:04:03 > 2:04:08many and a source of deep tragedy. We have new prevention training to

2:04:08 > 2:04:14give everyone working in prisons, officers and staff, other

2:04:14 > 2:04:16organisations working in prisons, giving them the confidence and

2:04:16 > 2:04:21skills to support people in their care. So far, more than 10,000

2:04:21 > 2:04:26prison staff have started the training and all new prison officers

2:04:26 > 2:04:30and prison custody officer recruits now complete the programme is part

2:04:30 > 2:04:34of initial training. I am glad to say the number of self-inflicted

2:04:34 > 2:04:38deaths in custody is significantly down from last year, although I will

2:04:38 > 2:04:45be the first to admit that there is still a lot of work to be done. The

2:04:45 > 2:04:47chairman of the select committee referred to the architecture of the

2:04:47 > 2:04:54prison system and how we can hold ourselves to account, we are

2:04:54 > 2:04:57strengthening the ability of the inspector to hold the Government and

2:04:57 > 2:05:01the prison service to account, we have introduced a new urgent

2:05:01 > 2:05:06notification process which had formed part of the original bill to

2:05:06 > 2:05:11enable the Secretary of State to be alerted directly in cases where the

2:05:11 > 2:05:15chief inspector has a significant and urgent concern about the

2:05:15 > 2:05:18performance of an individual institution. We launched the process

2:05:18 > 2:05:22last month, the Secretary of State will be directly alerted by the

2:05:22 > 2:05:26chief inspector if an urgent issue needs addressing to ensure

2:05:26 > 2:05:31recommendations are acted upon immediately. A new team of

2:05:31 > 2:05:34specialists accountable to ministers will ensure immediate action is

2:05:34 > 2:05:40taken along with responding within 28 days with a more in-depth plan to

2:05:40 > 2:05:43ensure we see sustained improvement for the prison in the long term. I

2:05:43 > 2:05:49give way.A lot of this sounds like firefighting and the report I quoted

2:05:49 > 2:05:55from and tomorrow we have the report, I don't know if he has seen

2:05:55 > 2:05:59that yet, it is under embargo store, but it shows endemic long-term

2:05:59 > 2:06:06problems that need really powerful solutions -- it is under embargo

2:06:06 > 2:06:10still. I do not hear that coming from the Government at all.The

2:06:10 > 2:06:14honourable gentleman is being unfair. Recruiting more staff,

2:06:14 > 2:06:19investing in intelligence, technology, a drug strategy,

2:06:19 > 2:06:23introducing urgent notification processes, giving more power to the

2:06:23 > 2:06:26Inspectorate, these are things which will solve the issues in our

2:06:26 > 2:06:31prisons. I hear him on the issues of scrubs, there are deep-seated

2:06:31 > 2:06:35challenges there and I admit there are, but prisons are and have always

2:06:35 > 2:06:39been difficult places to manage and they will be so but there is

2:06:39 > 2:06:43significant investment going in to tackle the problems we have in our

2:06:43 > 2:06:47prisons and as I have always said, it will not be done overnight, but

2:06:47 > 2:06:54the actions I am outlining today show our determination and our will

2:06:54 > 2:06:57to overcome these problems to make sure prisons are places of safety

2:06:57 > 2:07:01but also of reform which is why when it comes to employment and education

2:07:01 > 2:07:06which has been touched on in this debate, we have recently announced a

2:07:06 > 2:07:12new network which will be a broker between prisons and also the

2:07:12 > 2:07:17employment sector to make sure they can get work on release, but also

2:07:17 > 2:07:22better on a purposeful activity in prisons. The member did mention that

2:07:22 > 2:07:26sometimes the drug habit is because prisoners on board. Having better,

2:07:26 > 2:07:32purposeful activity is absolutely important, not just for making sure

2:07:32 > 2:07:35they are occupied, so they gain skills, but also have a better

2:07:35 > 2:07:40chance of getting a job on release. The member quite rightly raised the

2:07:40 > 2:07:46issue about the estate and what is happening. Yes, the plan is to

2:07:46 > 2:07:50create 10,000 additional places. Of course, there have been issues

2:07:50 > 2:07:54around maintenance, that is an issue to do with the facilities managers.

2:07:54 > 2:07:59I am in direct contact to make sure that whatever the future plans for a

2:07:59 > 2:08:08prison are, we are maintaining the prison so that the standards of

2:08:08 > 2:08:11decency in our prisons still remain the case, whatever the plan for the

2:08:11 > 2:08:14prison is further down the line. In conclusion, reducing reoffending,