08/02/2018

0:00:00 > 0:00:01Minister about the matter with which she has been extraordinarily closely

0:00:01 > 0:00:11involved in. Some latitude. I wish to make a statement on the

0:00:11 > 0:00:18independent review of local community health NHS Trust conducted

0:00:18 > 0:00:24for NHS and published today. What happened to patients of Liverpool

0:00:24 > 0:00:27community is common before anything else, a terrible personal tragedy

0:00:27 > 0:00:33for all of the families involved. Report also makes clear the

0:00:33 > 0:00:38devastating impact on many of the front line staff as well. On behalf

0:00:38 > 0:00:41of the government, I want to apologise to them and I know the

0:00:41 > 0:00:46whole house would want to extend our sympathies to everyone. I would like

0:00:46 > 0:00:52to pay tribute, as Mr Speaker has correctly identified to the

0:00:52 > 0:00:57honourable member for West like. The people of Merseyside know only too

0:00:57 > 0:01:01well the cost of attempting to silence the victims and campaigners

0:01:01 > 0:01:06of those seeking justice. As this report makes clear, their personal

0:01:06 > 0:01:11commitment to get to the truth on behalf of the victims of the

0:01:11 > 0:01:14Liverpool community trust, her personal courage and asking

0:01:14 > 0:01:20difficult questions of those in senior positions in the NHS and the

0:01:20 > 0:01:22persistence and precision of her search for accountability are all

0:01:22 > 0:01:27vindicated today. We in this house and across the wider health and

0:01:27 > 0:01:35social care service for her debt of gratitude. I would like to thank the

0:01:35 > 0:01:40doctor and his team for this excellent report, as with as

0:01:40 > 0:01:44reported on NHS Foundation Trust, it is clear, forensic and at times and

0:01:44 > 0:01:48devastating account of failures in the care of Liverpool community

0:01:48 > 0:01:55trust by its management from its board and its regulators. The report

0:01:55 > 0:01:59covers the period from the transformation in November 2010 to

0:01:59 > 0:02:03December 2014 and it describes an organisation that was, and I quote,

0:02:03 > 0:02:07dysfunctional from the outset was that the consequences of this for

0:02:07 > 0:02:11patient care were in some cases are following in the report details a

0:02:11 > 0:02:17number of incidents of patient harm, including pressure sores, fractured

0:02:17 > 0:02:23hips and five never events. That was in the dental service, and

0:02:23 > 0:02:29incredibly high number on one organisation. The failures of the

0:02:29 > 0:02:31organisation were more starkly apparent in the services provided

0:02:31 > 0:02:37that Liverpool prison. The trust built to properly risk assessed

0:02:37 > 0:02:41patients for nutrition and hydration and did not effectively manage

0:02:41 > 0:02:46patients at a high risk of suicide. The review has in addition identify

0:02:46 > 0:02:50serious failures in medicine management in Liverpool prison.

0:02:50 > 0:02:54There are many more examples of poor care and its impact on patients and

0:02:54 > 0:03:00on staff in the report. What compounds the shock and the lack --

0:03:00 > 0:03:03is the lack of insight displayed at the time by the organisation into

0:03:03 > 0:03:09these failures. This was the very opposite of a culture of learning,

0:03:09 > 0:03:14with incidents on or played down, warning signals ignored and other

0:03:14 > 0:03:20priorities are allowed to take place -- to take the place of patient

0:03:20 > 0:03:23safety and tear for the vulnerable. We have seen this sort of moral

0:03:23 > 0:03:30drift before. Most obviously at mid Staffordshire and Morecambe Bay. As

0:03:30 > 0:03:32with mid Staffordshire and the management of Liverpool community

0:03:32 > 0:03:36that far too much emphasis on achieving trust status, the review

0:03:36 > 0:03:40states and I quote, the trust undertake an aggressive cost

0:03:40 > 0:03:46improvement plan. Targeting the £30 million reduction over five years.

0:03:46 > 0:03:52This represented a cut in resources of approximately 22%. We were

0:03:52 > 0:03:55surprised that such an ambitious financial reduction was not

0:03:55 > 0:04:02scrutinised more closely by both commissioners and regulators. There

0:04:02 > 0:04:08is a direct line from the decisions made by the trust in this reckless

0:04:08 > 0:04:13manner to the harm experienced by patients. An early report by

0:04:13 > 0:04:19solicitors in March 2016 reported that the interim Chief Executive,

0:04:19 > 0:04:24who took over from Burnley Castle, found in her first week that there

0:04:24 > 0:04:31was an understanding by £3 million on district nursing. These teams

0:04:31 > 0:04:37were devastated because there weren't allowed to recruit, some of

0:04:37 > 0:04:45them down 50%. This is a nursing service whether Doctor says patients

0:04:45 > 0:04:52were experiencing great large pressure sores, grade three. This

0:04:52 > 0:04:55was accompanied by the hallmark of an organisation that has lost sight

0:04:55 > 0:04:59of its purpose. As the doctor states, and I quote, the evidence

0:04:59 > 0:05:05that we had and saw amply confirmed the existence of a bullying culture

0:05:05 > 0:05:09within the trust. Focus almost entirely on achieving foundation

0:05:09 > 0:05:16trust status. An adequate staffing levels, your staff morale, and are

0:05:16 > 0:05:20HR practice went unheeded. This was the end result of an inexperienced

0:05:20 > 0:05:25leadership that was not capable of rising to the challenges presented

0:05:25 > 0:05:31by the trust. Following an Staffordshire report, the doctor

0:05:31 > 0:05:35recognises that steps have been taken to introduce independent Sunni

0:05:35 > 0:05:39led inspection by the sea QC. The government has introduced special

0:05:39 > 0:05:44measures regime with an NHS improvement. Alongside as we have

0:05:44 > 0:05:47put in place a number of measures to create a wider culture of learning

0:05:47 > 0:05:51and improvement was that the Secretary of State has offered a

0:05:51 > 0:05:55great deal of personal leadership in helping to create this culture.

0:05:55 > 0:05:58Including the establishment of an independent Chief inspector for

0:05:58 > 0:06:02hospitals. I met him yesterday and spoke again with this morning. The

0:06:02 > 0:06:09recent introduction of measures to support trusts to learn from deaths

0:06:09 > 0:06:13and improve patient safety. I'm sure that I'm not alone in finding an

0:06:13 > 0:06:20astonishing that the doctor found there was a small minority of

0:06:20 > 0:06:25individuals who refused to cooperate with the review. I wholeheartedly

0:06:25 > 0:06:32agree with his view that it remains the duty of all NHS staff to assist

0:06:32 > 0:06:38as fully as they are able, with investigations and reviews that are

0:06:38 > 0:06:44directed towards improving future services. Mr Speaker, all but one of

0:06:44 > 0:06:50the board of the Liverpool trust shirked their legal and moral

0:06:50 > 0:06:52responsibility to be candid about the organisation that the

0:06:52 > 0:07:00government. In large complex organisations, responsibility and

0:07:00 > 0:07:04accountability are always distributed to some degree. It is

0:07:04 > 0:07:09the case that the higher up in the organisation someone is, the greater

0:07:09 > 0:07:14their degree of responsibility. In this case, those individuals were

0:07:14 > 0:07:21Burnley Castle as Stevie -- Stephen -- chief executive and France Malloy

0:07:21 > 0:07:25as chair. From reading the report, the each must take a significant

0:07:25 > 0:07:32share of the responsibility of these findings. Honourable members will,

0:07:32 > 0:07:35I'm sure, have noted the conclusions to the clinical governance section

0:07:35 > 0:07:40of the report, which highlights the responsibility of the former chief

0:07:40 > 0:07:45executive of the trust for the system of clinical governance and

0:07:45 > 0:07:49its fairness. It would appear that while the former chief executive is

0:07:49 > 0:07:54now able to see there were failures in clinical governance, she does not

0:07:54 > 0:08:00have as strong sense of responsibility as one might expect.

0:08:00 > 0:08:06She is no longer employed in the NHS but continues to have a role working

0:08:06 > 0:08:12within the NHS in Wales. In response to this report, the government

0:08:12 > 0:08:19intends to take a number of actions. First, the government accepts the

0:08:19 > 0:08:24recommendations of the doctor in school. Whilst this was a report

0:08:24 > 0:08:30commissioned by NHS improvement, I will write to all the organisations

0:08:30 > 0:08:33named in the recommendations set out in section six of the report, asking

0:08:33 > 0:08:37them to confirm what steps they will take to implement the

0:08:37 > 0:08:41recommendations, or set that there are reasons for not doing so. I will

0:08:41 > 0:08:45ensure copies of that response are shared with the health Select

0:08:45 > 0:08:53Committee. One recommendation is specifically for the Department of

0:08:53 > 0:08:59Health and social care, as set out in paragraph 6.5 page 64. This

0:08:59 > 0:09:05relates to a review of sea QCs fit and proper person test. Ryan ten to

0:09:05 > 0:09:08discuss the terms of the review with the member for West Lancashire and

0:09:08 > 0:09:14will appoint somebody to undertake the review within the coming days. I

0:09:14 > 0:09:18believe that review will need to address the operation and purpose of

0:09:18 > 0:09:23the fit and proper test. Including but not limited to when an

0:09:23 > 0:09:28individual moves from the NHS in England to another part of the

0:09:28 > 0:09:31United Kingdom. Where they believe that subsequently provide health

0:09:31 > 0:09:35care services to the NHS from another health care role. Such as

0:09:35 > 0:09:40with a charity or a health care company differing levels of

0:09:40 > 0:09:46professional regulation such as a Chief Executive computer one who is

0:09:46 > 0:09:51a non-clinician. The failure to cooperate with the review with this

0:09:51 > 0:09:57nature and what the consequences of that should be. Indeed, to review

0:09:57 > 0:09:59the effectiveness of such investigations themselves when they

0:09:59 > 0:10:03are conducted. I will be pleased to hear the views of the Honourable

0:10:03 > 0:10:08member for West Lancashire and those of the health Select Committee on

0:10:08 > 0:10:12these issues. Third, I've asked the Department to review the

0:10:12 > 0:10:17effectiveness of sanctions were records go missing in the trust. For

0:10:17 > 0:10:21her records appear to have been destroyed. Force, I've asked the

0:10:21 > 0:10:25Department for advice on what disciplinary action can be taken

0:10:25 > 0:10:31against individuals in relation to the findings of this report.

0:10:31 > 0:10:35Clearly, due process needs to be followed. It is important we address

0:10:35 > 0:10:41a revolving door culture that has existed in parts of the NHS, where

0:10:41 > 0:10:46individuals move the other NHS bodies often facilitated by those

0:10:46 > 0:10:51tasked with regulating them. I will ask NHS improvement and NHS England

0:10:51 > 0:10:56to clarify the circumstances under which rules were found facilitated

0:10:56 > 0:11:00for individuals identified in the report as bearing some

0:11:00 > 0:11:06responsibility for the issues at the trust. I have spoken with colleagues

0:11:06 > 0:11:10at the Ministry of Justice and confirmed to the House that they

0:11:10 > 0:11:15intend to investigate the issues arising from this report in respect

0:11:15 > 0:11:24of HMP Liverpool specifically and the prisoner state more generally.

0:11:24 > 0:11:30All organisations and individuals make mistakes. This is an

0:11:30 > 0:11:34opportunity to learn and improve, we will do all we can to provide

0:11:34 > 0:11:38support. Where however there is any kind of cover-up or a blinkered

0:11:38 > 0:11:43denial of what has happened, members of this House and the victims of

0:11:43 > 0:11:48that wrongdoing have a right to expect accountability. The Member

0:11:48 > 0:11:53for West Lancashire has done the NHS a great service. I will place a copy

0:11:53 > 0:11:57of the Kirk at review in the House of Commons library. The government

0:11:57 > 0:12:02is acting in for on the findings. -- enough all.

0:12:06 > 0:12:09Can I start by adding my appreciation to the tenacity my

0:12:09 > 0:12:12honourable friend the Member for West Lancashire has shown in

0:12:12 > 0:12:18pursuing this matter of a number of years? She has led the way in

0:12:18 > 0:12:21tackling this injustice fearlessly and relentlessly, in that respect

0:12:21 > 0:12:27she is an example to all members in this place. I agree with the

0:12:27 > 0:12:34Minister that this report is a vindication of her courage. Isn't it

0:12:34 > 0:12:40shameful this scandal only came to light because a member of Parliament

0:12:40 > 0:12:47gave a voice to those who are afraid to speak out. This report lays bare

0:12:47 > 0:12:52a catalogue of failure which caused harm to patients across Merseyside

0:12:52 > 0:12:56between 2010-14. It is a grim example of the regulated pressures

0:12:56 > 0:13:00on board management failures from staff being repeated on and off huge

0:13:00 > 0:13:04concern is that some of these babies came after the final publication of

0:13:04 > 0:13:14the Francis Report. -- some of these failures. Patients having the wrong

0:13:14 > 0:13:19tooth fixed by dentists, patients on care award suffering fools with

0:13:19 > 0:13:24broken bones or pressure ulcers. We have to make sure the pain

0:13:24 > 0:13:28experienced by so many patients and their families is properly detailed

0:13:28 > 0:13:32unrecognised. We must make sure the NHS is able to learn from these

0:13:32 > 0:13:34events and that systems are put in place to ensure they never happen

0:13:34 > 0:13:39again. Can I put on record our thanks from the side of the House to

0:13:39 > 0:13:43Doctor Bill Kirk and the work his team have done in carrying out this

0:13:43 > 0:13:46investigation and helping us to understand what has gone wrong.

0:13:46 > 0:13:52Today's report says patients suffered unnecessary harm because

0:13:52 > 0:13:56the senior leadership team was out of its depth. Let's be clear what

0:13:56 > 0:14:00lies at the heart of this: unrealistic cost-cutting without

0:14:00 > 0:14:08regards to the consequences which leads to patients being harmed. The

0:14:08 > 0:14:11report exposes serious problems around cost-cutting, in the case of

0:14:11 > 0:14:16the local community motivation was the drive to receive status. The

0:14:16 > 0:14:19trust discipline and suspended staff who blew the whistle about poor care

0:14:19 > 0:14:25and its controversial plans to save bash staff in order to save money.

0:14:25 > 0:14:35-- to slash staff. What protections have been put in place for staff who

0:14:35 > 0:14:37raise concerns about cost-cutting? Today's report notes the irony of

0:14:37 > 0:14:42staff reductions being agreed at the same board meeting that an earlier

0:14:42 > 0:14:45considered the invocations of the Francis Report. This alone should

0:14:45 > 0:14:48have raised alarm bells about the capacity of board members to

0:14:48 > 0:14:52challenge the trust. The NHS still faces huge workforce shortages so

0:14:52 > 0:14:56what update can the Minister give us on how the 10-year workforce

0:14:56 > 0:14:59strategy has been received? What additional measures for the strategy

0:14:59 > 0:15:03include the guarantee safe levels of staffing over the country, in

0:15:03 > 0:15:10community as well as acute services? I'm pleased the Minister recognises

0:15:10 > 0:15:12concerns that managers responsible can often go into leadership roles

0:15:12 > 0:15:16in other parts of the health service or indeed Private providers to the

0:15:16 > 0:15:22NHS in another capacity. Can the Minister advise how many people

0:15:22 > 0:15:24refuse to corporate with this investigation who are still employed

0:15:24 > 0:15:29in some part of the NHS? Is there anything in existing terms and

0:15:29 > 0:15:32conditions that can be used to require cooperation in future? Is

0:15:32 > 0:15:36there any form of address in existing policies and procedures

0:15:36 > 0:15:41that we can use against these people? The report also said

0:15:41 > 0:15:45regulators were distracted by higher profile services like acute care,

0:15:45 > 0:15:49the service general says today oversight failures were partly

0:15:49 > 0:15:52indubitable to organisational changes that were taking place

0:15:52 > 0:15:56during the D12 health and social care act. What is the government

0:15:56 > 0:15:59going to do to ensure national rarities are not allowed to

0:15:59 > 0:16:03interfere with local oversight? The report raises serious concerns about

0:16:03 > 0:16:07the quality of health care in prisons. HMP Liverpool has

0:16:07 > 0:16:10significant challenges and the new provider of the health service at

0:16:10 > 0:16:13the prison has said it cannot continue with the contract on the

0:16:13 > 0:16:18level of funding available. Our Ministry of Justice will investigate

0:16:18 > 0:16:22these matters generally but can the Minister assure us that prison

0:16:22 > 0:16:26health care is properly supported and resource to Merseyside and

0:16:26 > 0:16:29elsewhere across the country? In conclusion, paragraph one of the

0:16:29 > 0:16:32review findings sums up the devastating impact of these multiple

0:16:32 > 0:16:37failings. It says, staff were overstretched, demoralised and in

0:16:37 > 0:16:42some instances bullied. That significant unnecessary harm

0:16:42 > 0:16:47occurred to patients. In the unprecedented financial squeeze, the

0:16:47 > 0:16:49NHS currently faces, we need assurances from the Minister that

0:16:49 > 0:16:53patients and staff will come before finance and that is the last time

0:16:53 > 0:17:01today we hear such a damning message about what is going on in our NHS.I

0:17:01 > 0:17:04thank the Shadow Minister for those questions and the manner in which

0:17:04 > 0:17:09you put them before the House. In terms of the first key issue he

0:17:09 > 0:17:13raised, which is to what extent are the measures in place now to address

0:17:13 > 0:17:22this sort of issue, should it arise, post Francis review, a trust with

0:17:22 > 0:17:27high mortality rate, a new region has been put in place in terms of

0:17:27 > 0:17:34the Tube expected of hospitals, Ted Baker, and also the specific regime

0:17:34 > 0:17:39with NHS improvement. This is a report that was commissioned by NHS

0:17:39 > 0:17:43improvement itself, has a new chair in Dido Harding, a senior figure

0:17:43 > 0:17:50from the business community. That regime has put in place 37 hospitals

0:17:50 > 0:17:58into special measures so far. The methodology used to allow it

0:17:58 > 0:18:04regulators to areas of concern has also been revised, so far more

0:18:04 > 0:18:09importance is now placed on staff surveys and patient surveys. Though

0:18:09 > 0:18:17it does still remain to be explained why a trust could pay as so many

0:18:17 > 0:18:19compromise agreements, could respond to so many staff disciplinary

0:18:19 > 0:18:25issues, no doubt I recognise the honourable gentleman will have many

0:18:25 > 0:18:33concerns from the trade unions locally. In terms of some of the

0:18:33 > 0:18:38earlier reports, to what extent that tingled concerns that should have

0:18:38 > 0:18:41been addressed. That's why I signalled my desire in my reports to

0:18:41 > 0:18:45look at these issues and ensure particularly round the fit and

0:18:45 > 0:18:49proper test we ensure that those address, though he will be aware the

0:18:49 > 0:18:55fit and proper test only pertains to board level appointments within the

0:18:55 > 0:18:59NHS as opposed to all roles, so we must look at the scope,

0:18:59 > 0:19:01effectiveness of the investigation and particularly as he recognised

0:19:01 > 0:19:11the revolving door element. In terms of other issues we raised, I think

0:19:11 > 0:19:13we clearly need to ensure due process is followed and I must

0:19:13 > 0:19:19remind the House of the difficulties around any enforcement with Goodwin,

0:19:19 > 0:19:28if you look at Sharon Smith, and child services, and people quite

0:19:28 > 0:19:31rightly deserve to be able to expect due process and all members of the

0:19:31 > 0:19:36House would ask that. The victims will rightly ask, how can the chief

0:19:36 > 0:19:40executive with this catalogue of issues then move within the NHS

0:19:40 > 0:19:45rather than be fired? That is the sort of question I know the Member

0:19:45 > 0:19:47for West Lancashire has concerns around an I'm sure many members of

0:19:47 > 0:19:52the House likewise the House committee. I look forward to working

0:19:52 > 0:19:56with him in the spirit in which he has raised these issues, I know they

0:19:56 > 0:20:00are issues we share and issues the House as a whole wants us to get a

0:20:00 > 0:20:08hold of.Could I start by paying tribute to my colleague on the

0:20:08 > 0:20:12health Select Committee, the Member for West Lancashire? She is a

0:20:12 > 0:20:16remarkable parliamentarian and advocate the patient safety. We all

0:20:16 > 0:20:20on the House Select Committee look forward to working alongside her to

0:20:20 > 0:20:28examine in full the recommendations from the report. I welcome the

0:20:28 > 0:20:31Minister 's commitment to taking forward a review of the fit and

0:20:31 > 0:20:36proper person test. On the wider issues raised by this report,

0:20:36 > 0:20:41clearly where you continue to cut staff and funding from community

0:20:41 > 0:20:45services that are terrible consequences for patient care. Will

0:20:45 > 0:20:50the Minister assure the House that he will rework and closely alongside

0:20:50 > 0:20:54the Care Quality Commission to identify other trusts in which these

0:20:54 > 0:20:57kinds of issues are likely to arise? Because of the workforce and funding

0:20:57 > 0:21:07pressures that are now being faced. Happy to work with my honourable

0:21:07 > 0:21:13friend with this, she will be aware from reading the reports that what

0:21:13 > 0:21:18drove this, to be explicit in making clear the finances were there for

0:21:18 > 0:21:21the existing service, that set out at the outset of the report what

0:21:21 > 0:21:28drove this was a wholly unrealistic attempt to seek financial trust

0:21:28 > 0:21:33status with a cost improvement plan that was simply undeliverable. A

0:21:33 > 0:21:36massive reduction without any attempt to reconcile that with the

0:21:36 > 0:21:43service levels of staffing vacancies. When staff raise those

0:21:43 > 0:21:48concerns, they were bullied and harassed, on occasions was suspended

0:21:48 > 0:21:55without due cause. The culture has significantly changed and measures

0:21:55 > 0:21:59have been put in place as to how NHS improvement will address those

0:21:59 > 0:22:06issues. In terms of seeing to what extent the culture was driving this

0:22:06 > 0:22:11issue, I refer back to the remarks I made my speech where the new chief

0:22:11 > 0:22:16executive went in and found a significant underspend of £3 million

0:22:16 > 0:22:23in the district nursing budget. According to the report. At the same

0:22:23 > 0:22:27time, that had significant vacancies and patient harm. It was that

0:22:27 > 0:22:30culture that was driving the issue and is that culture we need to put

0:22:30 > 0:22:37an end to.I'd like to thank the Minister for their statement on echo

0:22:37 > 0:22:42his comments now, for the families and staff involved in this over the

0:22:42 > 0:22:49years. I also paid to be to the honourable member for West

0:22:49 > 0:22:52Lancashire, her tenacity sums up what is wrong with the system at

0:22:52 > 0:22:58present. In terms of observations and recommendations, the Minister

0:22:58 > 0:23:00has acknowledged some individuals did not cooperate with the

0:23:00 > 0:23:05investigation. Is there a case for law changed to prevent this in the

0:23:05 > 0:23:10future, or at very least employment sanctions to apply to such

0:23:10 > 0:23:15personnel? In terms of the fit and proper person test the government

0:23:15 > 0:23:21has put in place, any new standards agreed high retrospectively to board

0:23:21 > 0:23:25members currently in place? They have acknowledge the revolving door

0:23:25 > 0:23:30culture, it's important the fit and proper test is done properly, and

0:23:30 > 0:23:36will be review executive pay for chief executives and senior staff.

0:23:36 > 0:23:41What is going to be done to properly protect whistle-blowers in future to

0:23:41 > 0:23:48allow them to come forward? Clearly funding and resources are really

0:23:48 > 0:23:55important, and this report lays bare the objectives of foundation status

0:23:55 > 0:24:00and £30 million saving by 22% reduction and resources, rather than

0:24:00 > 0:24:04the true goal of clinical quality. What is going to be done to ensure

0:24:04 > 0:24:09that regulators pick up the search contrasts in future, and what

0:24:09 > 0:24:13responsibility does the government take in terms of funding and that

0:24:13 > 0:24:17drive for efficiency savings. Lastly, does the Minister agree that

0:24:17 > 0:24:21this confirms the failings of the trust system and that going forward,

0:24:21 > 0:24:25in the privatisation of the NHS, with profit before care, that cannot

0:24:25 > 0:24:33be allowed by the end of future free-trade deals?The honourable

0:24:33 > 0:24:36gentleman raises an important point, a number of important points, but

0:24:36 > 0:24:39particularly around whistle-blowers which is one of the warning signals

0:24:39 > 0:24:43that clearly failed here. Regulations have been changed as he

0:24:43 > 0:24:48will be aware in the past, there was a culture in which compromise

0:24:48 > 0:24:53agreements were plied with gagging clauses attached, which prevented

0:24:53 > 0:24:55visibility of those comprise agreements and that's why one of the

0:24:55 > 0:24:59questions I have asked on receipt of this report is widely compromise

0:24:59 > 0:25:03agreements that were being paid were not being escalated to the board and

0:25:03 > 0:25:09indeed what site if any did regulators have of those compromise

0:25:09 > 0:25:12agreements. Clearly financial payments will have been made and

0:25:12 > 0:25:16therefore there should be an audit trail around those payments. He also

0:25:16 > 0:25:21raised the issue in terms of what changes have been made, and another

0:25:21 > 0:25:26area where my honourable friend the Secretary of State has placed a huge

0:25:26 > 0:25:30amount of importance given the leadership is around patient safety

0:25:30 > 0:25:35guardians and ensuring that within trusts, there are people tasked

0:25:35 > 0:25:39specifically with giving voice to patients. My predecessor the Member

0:25:39 > 0:25:46for Lindner in one of his many very sensible areas of advice to me was

0:25:46 > 0:25:51that wherever I go and visit a trust, to have a one-on-one meeting

0:25:51 > 0:25:54with that individual, in terms of the status of that individual within

0:25:54 > 0:25:58a trust and also in order to gather information from them. That's

0:25:58 > 0:26:19something I know he assiduously dead on all his visits.

0:26:19 > 0:26:24is is this is a report that was back that goes back to 2010 in terms of

0:26:24 > 0:26:29its timescale but it's important the NHS learned from the issues that

0:26:29 > 0:26:35were set out. Can I add my tribute to the member for West Lancashire,

0:26:35 > 0:26:40she is a formidable parliamentarian and has done very good work on this.

0:26:40 > 0:26:46This report is shocking.Back in March 2015 following another

0:26:46 > 0:26:51incident, the public administration Select Committee produced a report

0:26:51 > 0:26:54investigating clinical incidents in the NHS.

0:26:55 > 0:26:59It recommended the setting up of the health services safety investigation

0:26:59 > 0:27:05Branch. The government has published that draft bill. Could the minister

0:27:05 > 0:27:08said when that bill will go into pre-legislative scrutiny so we can

0:27:08 > 0:27:13change this culture and have an open and learning culture that we should

0:27:13 > 0:27:21have in our NHS, very much as we see in the airline industry.My right

0:27:21 > 0:27:24honourable friend raises a very important point in terms of the

0:27:24 > 0:27:28draft bill and consultation and I am not in position to announce a date

0:27:28 > 0:27:32for that, that will be announced by Burgess -- business managers in the

0:27:32 > 0:27:35usual way and we have to recognise the importance of the series of

0:27:35 > 0:27:41measures and she is quite right to allude to that as one of the

0:27:41 > 0:27:44measures in the review and the France's report which is all part of

0:27:44 > 0:27:48changing the culture, one I very much want to signal to the House

0:27:48 > 0:27:54today. The report identifies where there are clearly remaining issues

0:27:54 > 0:27:59that need to be tackled. That is the service he has given to us through

0:27:59 > 0:28:09this report we have to focus on others government.Thank you Mr

0:28:09 > 0:28:14Speaker. Thank you for your indulgence, I don't intend to test

0:28:14 > 0:28:19your patience today by dealing with the detail of these matters. I will

0:28:19 > 0:28:25do that through the Select Committee and other mechanisms available to

0:28:25 > 0:28:30me. Thank you Mr Speaker. I will thank the Minister for his kind

0:28:30 > 0:28:34words and his comprehensive statement in response to the

0:28:34 > 0:28:42excellent work of Dr Kirkup and his team. I would like to thank Dr

0:28:42 > 0:28:45Kirkup and paid tribute to his thoroughness and independence and

0:28:45 > 0:28:50thank him most sincerely on behalf of the staff and the patients in

0:28:50 > 0:29:00Liverpool who suffered really badly at the hands of this. I want to say

0:29:00 > 0:29:03dictatorship, regime, whatever it was but it was done in our name,

0:29:03 > 0:29:10done in the name of the NHS and they deserve justice. After the review,

0:29:10 > 0:29:18the report and now this report, and another report on the way and

0:29:18 > 0:29:22hearing is due soon, it really is important that the NHS ensures that

0:29:22 > 0:29:26justice, not only is done, but this seemed to be done. Governments of

0:29:26 > 0:29:35all parties, the higher echelons of the NHS have closed ranks to protect

0:29:35 > 0:29:41themselves and this has got to stop. The senior people were able to

0:29:41 > 0:29:45inflict such harm on staff and patients and just what into other

0:29:45 > 0:29:51senior NHS jobs with 6-figure salaries and in this case it be

0:29:51 > 0:29:59arranged by the Northwest regional of NHS, Lynn Simpson, it is simply

0:29:59 > 0:30:04staggering. I still can't answer the question as the Minister himself

0:30:04 > 0:30:08posed, why wasn't the Chief Executive and this board fired? Why

0:30:08 > 0:30:13weren't they sacked? It's incomprehensible. Nothing has been

0:30:13 > 0:30:18learned over these last four years, as only a few weeks ago, the NHS are

0:30:18 > 0:30:24presiding over another LCA in the Wirral Hospital trust. I will

0:30:24 > 0:30:28continue to pursue these matters with vigour on behalf of the staff

0:30:28 > 0:30:35and patients. I would like to place on record that I don't see, for

0:30:35 > 0:30:39everybody who is affected, I don't see this report is the end, far from

0:30:39 > 0:30:45it. I know the Minister has a legal and forensic background and I would

0:30:45 > 0:30:50ask him, how will he assure this has that these matters will be dealt

0:30:50 > 0:30:55with properly by the executive and there will be no more cover-ups.

0:30:55 > 0:30:59Cover-ups and back door deals have ended once and for all. I know the

0:30:59 > 0:31:03Secretary of State has said on so many occasions, this will stop and

0:31:03 > 0:31:07we will not keep moving field executives round and yet it

0:31:07 > 0:31:14continues to happen and I will say, quite honestly, that I asked the

0:31:14 > 0:31:20question of a minister last year and he answered me in good faith. He

0:31:20 > 0:31:26said, the NHS I don't participate in moving staff around, not only remain

0:31:26 > 0:31:30unproven and nearly happened in the Wirral a few weeks ago, the message

0:31:30 > 0:31:34has got to go out that you do this kind of stuff, we will make sure you

0:31:34 > 0:31:38don't escape. The NHS has to be accountable and those in

0:31:38 > 0:31:46responsible.I think the Honourable lady for those comments and in reply

0:31:46 > 0:31:55to her questions, as I set out in my opening remarks, I have asked NHS

0:31:55 > 0:31:58improvement and NHS clarify the circumstances under which those

0:31:58 > 0:32:03rules were bound and facilitated as found in the sport for bearing

0:32:03 > 0:32:06responsibilities with the issues with the trust and that was a

0:32:06 > 0:32:14central question that she pulls on one in which I await the answer. In

0:32:14 > 0:32:18terms of the sense of cover-up and things Janey, I would point out that

0:32:18 > 0:32:22the Secretary of State has provided leadership in terms of the culture

0:32:22 > 0:32:27change around patient safety and the recognition is across the House

0:32:27 > 0:32:31following the full situation in mid Staffordshire that changes need to

0:32:31 > 0:32:38be made on patient safety and the NHS itself as recognise that. NHS

0:32:38 > 0:32:43improvement also has new leadership and the this report themselves. In

0:32:43 > 0:32:49terms of the changes that have been in place, I look to the sea QC

0:32:49 > 0:32:53regime and the Chief Inspector and methodology and speaking to him

0:32:53 > 0:32:58yesterday, every hospital has now been visited with that new

0:32:58 > 0:33:05methodology and that programme will now start to accelerate and target

0:33:05 > 0:33:08as following visits have done. The methodology used for that has

0:33:08 > 0:33:12evolved in terms of the importance in areas such as staff service.

0:33:12 > 0:33:17There are a number of measures that have been made and special measures

0:33:17 > 0:33:22regime is also very much at the heart of that, so a number of steps

0:33:22 > 0:33:29which are taken. Is underpinned by the fact we need a balance between

0:33:29 > 0:33:33the duty of candour, the ability for people to learn from mistakes, which

0:33:33 > 0:33:39will happen in an organisation, an appointment with 5 million people.

0:33:39 > 0:33:43The sense that people are able to escape responsibility by moving

0:33:43 > 0:33:49within the system. From my discussions with people within the

0:33:49 > 0:33:53NHS, there is very much a recognition of that, a recognition

0:33:53 > 0:33:57that has changed significantly but clearly in the issues that come from

0:33:57 > 0:34:01this report today, the House will have to see further reassurance. As

0:34:01 > 0:34:06for her question as to how I will insure and the government will

0:34:06 > 0:34:12ensure that these issues are implemented and not covered up, I

0:34:12 > 0:34:17don't think anyone doubts the honourable lady will be using all

0:34:17 > 0:34:22the Parliamentary tools to proceed with this matter, including as a

0:34:22 > 0:34:25senior Member of the House Select Committee, I'm aware that other

0:34:25 > 0:34:30Members of the House Select Committee on Liverpool waiver tree,

0:34:30 > 0:34:34it is a former shadow health minister, will take a significant

0:34:34 > 0:34:37interest in this issue and I know the cheer of the House Select

0:34:37 > 0:34:42Committee will do so and I have had regular discussions and look forward

0:34:42 > 0:34:46and intense and the fit and proper test and the issues we take forward

0:34:46 > 0:34:49as to how we benefit from the expertise from her celebrity, it is

0:34:49 > 0:34:53clear there have measures and it is right that we recognise that much

0:34:53 > 0:34:58work has been done in the NHS to change this culture to ensure the

0:34:58 > 0:35:04warning signs are there and insurers and this never happens again. It's

0:35:04 > 0:35:09clear that there are specific issues in the report that need to be

0:35:09 > 0:35:14answered and I share very much her desire that is needed.There is

0:35:14 > 0:35:18another ministerial statement to follow and that although the debate

0:35:18 > 0:35:23on matters to be raised before the forthcoming settlement is not now

0:35:23 > 0:35:28going to take place, no fewer than 19 honourable members wish to take

0:35:28 > 0:35:35part in the debate on community banking. There is a premium upon

0:35:35 > 0:35:39brevity and having had these important matters call aired,

0:35:39 > 0:35:46affected no appeal to colleagues to ask single sentence essay questions

0:35:46 > 0:35:56without a great preamble for then we will progress towards other matters.

0:35:56 > 0:35:58My honourable friend will be aware that he said that the situation was

0:35:58 > 0:36:03at Liverpool prison with the trust having no understanding of its

0:36:03 > 0:36:07requirements and the role as health provider, health care staff and a

0:36:07 > 0:36:12very difficult situation. Does he feel there is a need for better

0:36:12 > 0:36:18liaison between health and justice? Over these sorts of facilities in

0:36:18 > 0:36:31prison? Is the CQC in a position to carry out inspections or do they

0:36:31 > 0:36:34need help? On the first point I spoke with colleagues in the

0:36:34 > 0:36:38Ministry of Justice yesterday on the specific issue, I very much agree

0:36:38 > 0:36:43with his position that standards of care for those in prison should be

0:36:43 > 0:36:48the same as those within the NHS more widely, he will be aware that

0:36:48 > 0:36:52NHS England have taken over commissioning for health care

0:36:52 > 0:36:57services 2013. Part of the changes that have been made but they will

0:36:57 > 0:37:03know that in the report there were local factors like

0:37:03 > 0:37:09conflict-of-interest referenced by Dr Kirkup that goes to the heart of

0:37:09 > 0:37:12the service in the local community trust and in prisons. There were

0:37:12 > 0:37:15local factors but he is right with the wider issues that we need to

0:37:15 > 0:37:21learn from.How many members of the board failed to co-operate with this

0:37:21 > 0:37:28scathing review and can you name them what might only one member of

0:37:28 > 0:37:36the board cooperated with the review from which one can the juice that

0:37:36 > 0:37:43the rest did not.Given I am relatively new to this department,

0:37:43 > 0:37:46it would be wise as a minister to clarify to what extent individuals

0:37:46 > 0:37:51should be named but I'm happy to confirm that the chair of the board

0:37:51 > 0:37:57did not cooperate.

0:37:59 > 0:38:04Will the Minister agree with me that this report shows that leadership

0:38:04 > 0:38:09really matters in our local NHS and what further steps can he take to

0:38:09 > 0:38:14ensure that transparency, which is so important to clinical quality and

0:38:14 > 0:38:20patient safety can really be understood as important for hospital

0:38:20 > 0:38:24trusts.The on already is absolutely correct and that is why we are

0:38:24 > 0:38:29increasing the numbers of doctors by 25% and looking at how we increased

0:38:29 > 0:38:32the number of clinicians in leadership positions within trusts

0:38:32 > 0:38:38and how we actually insure that variants within leadership, which is

0:38:38 > 0:38:42one of the key issues, NHS has billions needed by the variance

0:38:42 > 0:38:47between trusts is far too wide and those are the issues I'm looking at.

0:38:47 > 0:38:52Given that health is devolved to the Scottish Government you might wonder

0:38:52 > 0:38:57why I asked what I ask but will the Minister of State reassure me that

0:38:57 > 0:39:01the report will be shared with the Scottish NHS and Scottish Government

0:39:01 > 0:39:05and can he reassure me that as and when senior appointments are made,

0:39:05 > 0:39:07there will be an ongoing constructive and informed dialogue

0:39:07 > 0:39:12across the border and you will see why I ask that question.

0:39:12 > 0:39:16Very happy to give him that the issuance and he raises a very

0:39:16 > 0:39:20important point because it's not just those moving within the United

0:39:20 > 0:39:25Kingdom that is an issue, its potential was moving to a charity

0:39:25 > 0:39:27that is providing services to the NHS, it might be to a private

0:39:27 > 0:39:31company providing health care or other roles in the health care

0:39:31 > 0:39:39landscape.Did I press the minister a little further on his reference to

0:39:39 > 0:39:43work revolving doors and the worrying statement that this is

0:39:43 > 0:39:47facilitated by those who are tasked with regulating it. Could I suggest

0:39:47 > 0:39:52that the Minister also looks at democratic accountability not just

0:39:52 > 0:39:57within the appointments with officials but also more widely in

0:39:57 > 0:40:04the NHS.And very happy to look at the suggestions. He's a member of

0:40:04 > 0:40:09house Select Committee and I alluded in my remarks, my desire to work

0:40:09 > 0:40:11with members of the committee on these issues. Mr Speaker, if you

0:40:11 > 0:40:15look at the previous debate we had, the statement was about culture in

0:40:15 > 0:40:20this house and what was heart of both my honourable friend's question

0:40:20 > 0:40:26and the issues seen here, is the issue of culture and the need for

0:40:26 > 0:40:29that culture to change and the Secretary of State has done a great

0:40:29 > 0:40:35deal on patient safety to do that and I'm happy to work with the

0:40:35 > 0:40:41honourable member to take that further.What lessons can be learned

0:40:41 > 0:40:46by Liverpool community trust and other underperforming trusts from

0:40:46 > 0:40:49the successful turnaround of some 20 trusts under the government new

0:40:49 > 0:40:54special measures scheme?

0:40:54 > 0:40:58The honourable lady is quite right, there are 37 trusts that have gone

0:40:58 > 0:41:03into special motions but a number have moved out not just of special

0:41:03 > 0:41:07measures but from improvement into good as well. That goes to a much

0:41:07 > 0:41:12wider challenge within the NHS, whether its procurement or workforce

0:41:12 > 0:41:16planning, whether it's mentoring for junior doctors. I met with the

0:41:16 > 0:41:21family of a junior doctor last week, regarding the issues around men

0:41:21 > 0:41:24touring and support particularly in the first year out of medical

0:41:24 > 0:41:27College. There's a number of issues which trusts have shown leadership

0:41:27 > 0:41:32on and I think the key issue which the special measures regime has

0:41:32 > 0:41:34shown is the scope to use that best practice much more widely across the

0:41:34 > 0:41:43sixth. -- across the system.I agree it vital we expose and tackle

0:41:43 > 0:41:46failings in the NHS especially when they put people at harm. Does the

0:41:46 > 0:41:53Minister agree that this case highlights that money is not always

0:41:53 > 0:41:56the only answer, also effective and responsible leadership and

0:41:56 > 0:42:00management.At the heart of these findings were what drove the issue

0:42:00 > 0:42:10here is not money, he specifically set that out in terms of the finance

0:42:10 > 0:42:14services, the desire to seek foundation trust status that led to

0:42:14 > 0:42:17a wholly unrealistic cost improvement plan, and link to that

0:42:17 > 0:42:22it was the unwillingness to actually address where issues arose as a

0:42:22 > 0:42:31consequence of that.I would like to thank my constituency neighbour the

0:42:31 > 0:42:35Member for West language for all the work she has done on this issue. To

0:42:35 > 0:42:38reiterate the point is that have been made, it's important we have

0:42:38 > 0:42:43the right culture in our NHS but also that those who compromise

0:42:43 > 0:42:46patient safety should be brought to task and be punished. And that we

0:42:46 > 0:42:51should know about this on the action that is taken to them. It will just

0:42:51 > 0:42:58keep happening if not.My honourable friend is absolutely right. If I

0:42:58 > 0:43:01draw his attention to the statement Ted Baker, the chief inspector of

0:43:01 > 0:43:06hospitals has made, where he points out one of the review findings which

0:43:06 > 0:43:13is that the CTC are now in a better position to find the challenge an

0:43:13 > 0:43:17unsafe care and poor standards. That is a finding from the doctor but it

0:43:17 > 0:43:21also reflects the excellent work he and his doctor had been doing to

0:43:21 > 0:43:24ensure inspections are moving forward and are much more rigorous.

0:43:24 > 0:43:31In picking up the issues we have today.As a member of the Justice

0:43:31 > 0:43:34Select Committee we have taken a particular interest in Liverpool

0:43:34 > 0:43:38prison. Will he assure me this review will look at the suicide

0:43:38 > 0:43:47potential business to the system is right?My honourable friend is right

0:43:47 > 0:43:51to allude to learning those lessons, particularly in the case of

0:43:51 > 0:43:55vulnerable people in prison and the risk accrued as a result. I spoke

0:43:55 > 0:44:00with the Minister for offender management yesterday, he was

0:44:00 > 0:44:05actually at HMP Liverpool last week. I know they have taken a great

0:44:05 > 0:44:08interest in this report and I'm sure will bring forward any further

0:44:08 > 0:44:14actions in the usual way.Thank you Mr Speaker. Does my honourable

0:44:14 > 0:44:21friend the -- see an ongoing role for the doctor in order to keep

0:44:21 > 0:44:27putting things right?I am happy to discuss the doctor Kirk moving

0:44:27 > 0:44:32forward any future opportunities like that. What is clear is this is

0:44:32 > 0:44:36an excellent report and very much builds on the work that he at

0:44:36 > 0:44:41Morecambe. There is a huge amount forced to take forward from the

0:44:41 > 0:44:49findings in this report.Statement, the Parliamentary Secretary for

0:44:49 > 0:44:57pensions and financial inclusion. Thank you. With permission, I will

0:44:57 > 0:45:01make a statement following the Opposition Day debate on state

0:45:01 > 0:45:05pension age, the decision to equalise the state pension age for

0:45:05 > 0:45:09men and women dates back to 1995 and addresses a long-standing inequality

0:45:09 > 0:45:14between men and women's state pension age. This change is part of

0:45:14 > 0:45:17a wider social trend towards gender equality but was also a decision

0:45:17 > 0:45:28partly as a result of legal cases relating to pension provisions. In

0:45:28 > 0:45:32the Brown years, a state pension fixed at 65 was deemed no longer

0:45:32 > 0:45:38affordable sustainable. The pensions act of 2007 deemed an increased to

0:45:38 > 0:45:43age 60 six, six to seven and 68. The Coalition government wanted further

0:45:43 > 0:45:47changes under the 2011 pensions act which accelerated equalisation of

0:45:47 > 0:45:50women's state pension age and brought forward increase in men and

0:45:50 > 0:45:59women's state pension age to 66 by 20 20. Parliament considered a range

0:45:59 > 0:46:02of alternative options resulting in a 1.1 billion concession that capped

0:46:02 > 0:46:07the maximum increase any woman would see in her state pension age at 18

0:46:07 > 0:46:12months, relative to the 1995 timetable. Many members raise the

0:46:12 > 0:46:19issue of communications in the November debate. Since 1995, the

0:46:19 > 0:46:21government has gone to significant lengths to communicate these

0:46:21 > 0:46:25changes. He were noted privately but and an advertising campaign was

0:46:25 > 0:46:30carried out. Individual letters were posted out. Those affected by the

0:46:30 > 0:46:381995 act changes were sent letters informing them of the changes with

0:46:38 > 0:46:43the state pension age, with letters sent to 1.2 million women. Those

0:46:43 > 0:46:47affected by the 2011 act changes were sent letters between January

0:46:47 > 0:46:532012 on November 2013 which involves sending over 5 million letters on a

0:46:53 > 0:46:56company leaflet. Life expectancy and state spending what has driven these

0:46:56 > 0:47:02changes. Society has changed in countless ways since the 1950s and

0:47:02 > 0:47:06life expectancy is no exception. A girl born in 1951 was expected to

0:47:06 > 0:47:13live to 81. A boy to 77. By 2018, the latest ONS Coldwater begins show

0:47:13 > 0:47:17an increase by over ten years for nearly one girls and over 12 years

0:47:17 > 0:47:24for boys. 292 and 89 respectively. Life expectancy of old ages has also

0:47:24 > 0:47:27gone up during this period and is projected to continue to increase in

0:47:27 > 0:47:33future years. These welcome increases in life expectancy of

0:47:33 > 0:47:36course have implications for the state pension. As people live

0:47:36 > 0:47:40longer, they invariably also spend longer in retirement. Had we not

0:47:40 > 0:47:44equalise the state pension, women would be expected to stand over 40%

0:47:44 > 0:47:48of their adult lives in retirement, a proportion which would only

0:47:48 > 0:47:52continue to increase. The situation is not sustainable for any

0:47:52 > 0:47:55government and means increasing taxes for the working population.

0:47:55 > 0:47:59Going as far as some campaigners have urged and revoking the 1995

0:47:59 > 0:48:02pensions act would represent a loss of over £70 billion to the public

0:48:02 > 0:48:07purse. The state pension must be maintained an unaffordable bidding

0:48:07 > 0:48:11for future generations of pensioners and taxpayers, this necessitated the

0:48:11 > 0:48:15government 's actions to equalise and then increase the state pension

0:48:15 > 0:48:23age to the pensions act of 1995, 2007, 2011 and 20 14. Any further

0:48:23 > 0:48:28transitional arrangement would, at great cost, the government has

0:48:28 > 0:48:30considered many options and all of the proposals will be wrought with

0:48:30 > 0:48:35substantial legal problems as well as financial ones. Any amendment to

0:48:35 > 0:48:39current legislation which creates a new inequality between men and women

0:48:39 > 0:48:42would unquestionably be highly dubious as a matter of law. Causing

0:48:42 > 0:48:45younger people to bear a greater share of the cost of the pension

0:48:45 > 0:48:50system in this way would be unfair and undermine the principle of

0:48:50 > 0:48:52intergenerational fairness that is integral to our state pension

0:48:52 > 0:48:56reforms. Let me turn to some of the proposals from the debate. In

0:48:56 > 0:49:02relation to the SNP, they seek a full compensation package of at very

0:49:02 > 0:49:08least the reverse of the 2011 act, the SNP cost of this at £8 million

0:49:08 > 0:49:12but we suggest this is a vast underestimate. This will actually

0:49:12 > 0:49:16cost the taxpayer over £30 billion and potentially more. There is no

0:49:16 > 0:49:19doubt the Scotland Act gives the Scottish Government the power as it

0:49:19 > 0:49:24needs to address this issue. The party opposite have made multiple

0:49:24 > 0:49:29suggestions with many seeking the full compensation packages of 70

0:49:29 > 0:49:31billion, in addition they have proposed in their manifesto keeping

0:49:31 > 0:49:37the state pension age at 66. This would cost over 250 billion more

0:49:37 > 0:49:41than the government's preferred timetable by 2045, 40 six. Payments

0:49:41 > 0:49:45on this scale are an affordable and cannot be justified. The key choice

0:49:45 > 0:49:52the government faces is to increase state pension age or pay lower

0:49:52 > 0:49:55pensions, with an inevitable impact on pensioner poverty. The only

0:49:55 > 0:49:59alternative is to ask the working generation to pay an even larger

0:49:59 > 0:50:04share of their income to support pensioners. I believe successive

0:50:04 > 0:50:08governments have made appropriate the difficult decisions to equalise

0:50:08 > 0:50:13and increase the state pension age. A significant concession was made in

0:50:13 > 0:50:16the 2011 so no woman would see an increase to her state pension age of

0:50:16 > 0:50:21more than 18 months relative to the 1995 timetable. To renege on

0:50:21 > 0:50:27decisions and further increase costs to the public, especially the

0:50:27 > 0:50:34working population, would be unfair and unaffordable.I thank the

0:50:34 > 0:50:38Minister for his statement and for arranging to let me have sight of it

0:50:38 > 0:50:42early this morning. The state pension for women born in the 1950s

0:50:42 > 0:50:48should be set in the wider context of the government's I have to say

0:50:48 > 0:50:50uninspiring track record on pensions. Last July the government

0:50:50 > 0:50:53announced it would be bringing forward the increase in the state

0:50:53 > 0:51:00pension age to 68 in 2037, justifying this on the increase in

0:51:00 > 0:51:04the life expectancy, however in the same week the renowned expert on

0:51:04 > 0:51:11life expectancy, Professor Michael marmot described how a century long

0:51:11 > 0:51:15rise in life expectancy was in his words pretty close to having ground

0:51:15 > 0:51:22to a halt. And had, in his words, outlined since 2010. In part, I have

0:51:22 > 0:51:27to say the consequence of government policy on posterity. Since then,

0:51:27 > 0:51:34statisticians from the official office of statistics revealed by

0:51:34 > 0:51:392041, the life expectancy for men and women would be a year less than

0:51:39 > 0:51:44had been projected just two years previously. In addition, the ONS has

0:51:44 > 0:51:48revealed that though women continue to live longer in good health than

0:51:48 > 0:51:54men, their healthy life expectancy has decreased since 2009. Yet more

0:51:54 > 0:51:59evidence from Public Health England shows how deep inequalities in a

0:51:59 > 0:52:06healthy life expectancy remain. On average, people in the UK are now

0:52:06 > 0:52:09projected to live shorter lives than previously estimated. Does the

0:52:09 > 0:52:17Minister agree? Yet it is in this context that the government is

0:52:17 > 0:52:22failing women born in the 1950s. This statement does nothing to

0:52:22 > 0:52:28address the pensions injustice these women face. The government has had

0:52:28 > 0:52:31multiple opportunities to act, so why is the Minister again refusing

0:52:31 > 0:52:35to use the opportunity of a motion passed by this House to do so to

0:52:35 > 0:52:41take further steps. It is unacceptable that we are having to

0:52:41 > 0:52:45make the same argument and raise the same points again, because this

0:52:45 > 0:52:48government continues to refuse to help these women who are suffering

0:52:48 > 0:52:52and losing out due to the acceleration of the state pension

0:52:52 > 0:52:59age and lack of proper notice. This issue is not going to go away. Why

0:52:59 > 0:53:05does the government continued to act as though it will? This statement is

0:53:05 > 0:53:10sadly but not unsurprisingly yet another example of the government's

0:53:10 > 0:53:14failure to give women born in the 1950s the dignity and respect they

0:53:14 > 0:53:23deserve. It is a missed opportunity to take real action. We have all

0:53:23 > 0:53:27heard stories, often heartbreaking, from many thousands of women

0:53:27 > 0:53:32affected by the changes of how the situation they face is one of

0:53:32 > 0:53:37desperation and fear of poverty. Like Christine in my own

0:53:37 > 0:53:41constituency, 62, now having to wait till 66 to retire, husband had just

0:53:41 > 0:53:46died, father had just died, and in her words, not the cleaning jobs are

0:53:46 > 0:53:49bad thing but I've never done a cleaning job in my life, I'm now

0:53:49 > 0:53:56having to do three to make ends meet until such time until I can retire.

0:53:56 > 0:53:59It is wrong. It is to the government 's shame that it refuses to

0:53:59 > 0:54:04recognise the very real basis for the fears of women like Christie.

0:54:04 > 0:54:08What immediate measures for the government take to adjust this

0:54:08 > 0:54:13appalling situation. Does the Minister understand how difficult it

0:54:13 > 0:54:18is for many women in their 60s to retrain and access decent work? What

0:54:18 > 0:54:22support will his government offer these women or will he repeat the

0:54:22 > 0:54:27bizarre proposal made on the other side of the House that they might

0:54:27 > 0:54:34take up apprenticeships. As we have repeatedly set out, there are

0:54:34 > 0:54:38several immediate actions that the government could and should take but

0:54:38 > 0:54:42time and again they have refused. Can the Minister explain why he

0:54:42 > 0:54:49refuses to offer women a affected by government changes to the state

0:54:49 > 0:54:55pension age is a cost neutral option to draw their state pension at age

0:54:55 > 0:55:0064 as we have proposed. This would allow women who choose it to retire

0:55:00 > 0:55:05up to two years earlier. The pension age is due to rise due to 66 by the

0:55:05 > 0:55:12end of 2020, we reject the proposal from the government to increase the

0:55:12 > 0:55:16state pension age even further. We believe and will act to put in place

0:55:16 > 0:55:21a new review of the pension age specifically tasked with developing

0:55:21 > 0:55:26a flexible retirement policy to reflect both the contributions made

0:55:26 > 0:55:30by people, the wide variations in life expectancy, and the arduous

0:55:30 > 0:55:36conditions of some work. It is also right to extend pension credit to

0:55:36 > 0:55:40those who were due to retire before the increase in the pension age.

0:55:40 > 0:55:45Hundreds of thousands of women would benefit from this offer. Will the

0:55:45 > 0:55:50Minister look again at this proposal? Can I say in conclusion,

0:55:50 > 0:55:57this statement sadly it does nothing to help 1950s born women. Action not

0:55:57 > 0:56:01words are needed if the government is to restore some of the faith and

0:56:01 > 0:56:04dignity that many people feel they have lost as a result of the

0:56:04 > 0:56:08government 's refusal to act and to introduce proper transitional

0:56:08 > 0:56:13procedures. These are women, the women of Britain, who built this

0:56:13 > 0:56:25country. They deserve nothing less.

0:56:25 > 0:56:28Make responses along the lines that he seeks an independent review of

0:56:28 > 0:56:33state pension age and the government did that last year.The review was

0:56:33 > 0:56:37independent of government and major conclusions exactly as set out in

0:56:37 > 0:56:43the Labour Party manifesto that review made support to the assertion

0:56:43 > 0:56:46that the government put forward full. The second issue is that the

0:56:46 > 0:56:50Labour Party used to be credible on matters of finance, sadly that has

0:56:50 > 0:56:55long gone. The Labour Party under the previous Prime Minister Tony

0:56:55 > 0:57:02Blair and Gordon Brown as the 2007 act which raised the state pension

0:57:02 > 0:57:05age, we now have the bizarre situation that the Labour Party

0:57:05 > 0:57:10manifesto says that state pension age should not go beyond 66. They

0:57:10 > 0:57:17are going back upon their own decision in 2007. The credibility is

0:57:17 > 0:57:25sadly lacking and further complicated by the reliance upon the

0:57:25 > 0:57:30Shadow Secretary of State and he repeated it today. He makes it clear

0:57:30 > 0:57:35and I quote from his report, the improvement in life expectancy at

0:57:35 > 0:57:39birth, which had been around in one increase every five years for women

0:57:39 > 0:57:46and every 3.5 for men had slowed since 2010 to a one-year increase

0:57:46 > 0:57:49every ten years for women and every six years for men. The point being

0:57:49 > 0:57:54Mr Speaker, the increase is still going ahead. It may have slowed to a

0:57:54 > 0:57:58degree but is still rising. Life expectancy continues to rise. The

0:57:58 > 0:58:03Labour Party in 2004 agreed that the office for National statistics

0:58:03 > 0:58:06figures should be the figures that are accepted and were then followed

0:58:06 > 0:58:11by the Labour Party thereafter. The ONS did a report last year in

0:58:11 > 0:58:17December on the life expectancy at birth and in 50 years' time by 2060

0:58:17 > 0:58:23seeks, I've expectancy is projected to reach 98 years for females and 96

0:58:23 > 0:58:31for males. Going forward in 2018, we have women that life expectancy on

0:58:31 > 0:58:3790 to one birth and 89 for men. I can briefly touch upon in relation

0:58:37 > 0:58:41to the full working life strategy, something the Labour Party used to

0:58:41 > 0:58:45support and I'm sad to say they don't seem to support. 1.2 million

0:58:45 > 0:58:48people in employment over the age of 65, something that should be

0:58:48 > 0:58:53celebrated. It is entirely right that retraining might not be

0:58:53 > 0:58:57suitable for everyone but it's also right that governments of every kind

0:58:57 > 0:59:01should give opportunities to those who wish to take those things up.

0:59:01 > 0:59:06The number of apprenticeships starts with 53,004 people between the ages

0:59:06 > 0:59:17of 45 and 59 and over 60, 3400 and a nine-month period. That is thousands

0:59:17 > 0:59:19of people taking thousands of opportunities for retraining and it

0:59:19 > 0:59:26should be supported.I remind the House of the substantial business to

0:59:26 > 0:59:30follow which is heavily subscribed, so there is a premium upon brevity.

0:59:30 > 0:59:37From both back and front benches alike. Minimum preliminary, survey a

0:59:37 > 0:59:42focus on the question to the Minister.I will come the truth,

0:59:42 > 0:59:47what impact assessments have the carried out to assess the impact on

0:59:47 > 0:59:55women born in the 1950s as a result. There were multiple impact

0:59:55 > 1:00:03assessments carried out in 1995, in 2007 and 2011 and these matters were

1:00:03 > 1:00:08debated at great length in both houses of parliament on an ongoing

1:00:08 > 1:00:15basis.I thank the Minister for the advance statement but it doesn't say

1:00:15 > 1:00:19very much that's new. The government seems unable to accept that

1:00:19 > 1:00:23irrespective of their policy of abstaining opposition days, there's

1:00:23 > 1:00:26a clear majority in this house in support of the 1950s women. Five

1:00:26 > 1:00:33Conservative backbenchers, six members voted for the SNP motion on

1:00:33 > 1:00:37the 29th of November, that's the second biggest rebellion in this

1:00:37 > 1:00:40Parliament. Perhaps rather than just more bluster and passing the buck,

1:00:40 > 1:00:42the government should be looking at bringing forward proposals to

1:00:42 > 1:00:47address the motion. Improved transitional arrangements for women

1:00:47 > 1:00:53born after the 6th of April 1951 that have been affected by the

1:00:53 > 1:00:57acceleration and increasing state pension age. That is the will of has

1:00:57 > 1:01:00expressed time and again and is not good enough for the Minister to win

1:01:00 > 1:01:02a red herring at the tender Scottish parliament can resolve the

1:01:02 > 1:01:08situation. The pension system and the state pension age is reserved.

1:01:08 > 1:01:12The Scotland Act is clear about that, the Scottish Parliament cannot

1:01:12 > 1:01:16make benefits by way of old-age. It's not the job of the Scottish

1:01:16 > 1:01:20Parliament to clean up the mess made by this UK Government and is not the

1:01:20 > 1:01:24job of the Scottish taxpayer to effectively paid twice to mitigate

1:01:24 > 1:01:30the impact of Tory cuts was the government continues to ignore this

1:01:30 > 1:01:33house and the voices of the 1950s women, they should get ready for

1:01:33 > 1:01:36further debate, questions, petitions and amendments to legislation

1:01:36 > 1:01:40because nobody is going away. This week that had been celebrating the

1:01:40 > 1:01:43suffrage campaign and its not by coincidence that he was the women

1:01:43 > 1:01:49have chosen their colours or their campaign. That was

1:01:52 > 1:01:54in the government must do them justice and pay out.The honourable

1:01:54 > 1:01:59gentleman will know full well that the Scotland Act gave a variety of

1:01:59 > 1:02:04powers under sections 26, 28 and 24 and crucially it is the case that if

1:02:04 > 1:02:11an individual is of working age then they can be addressed with

1:02:11 > 1:02:15assistance by the Scottish Government, not my words, set out in

1:02:15 > 1:02:18coastal clear detail on the 22nd of June by Jean Freeman, my opposite

1:02:18 > 1:02:22number in Scotland and I remind the honourable gentleman on the Scottish

1:02:22 > 1:02:26National Party manifesto which included a commitment to assess the

1:02:26 > 1:02:29impact of these changes and the options open to the Scottish

1:02:29 > 1:02:34Government to provide support to these women. The support, I suggest

1:02:34 > 1:02:38is there, I have written to both my opposite number and the leader of

1:02:38 > 1:02:41the West Minister SNP saying that you can go ahead, the British

1:02:41 > 1:02:45Government is not objected to it in any way that he should get on with

1:02:45 > 1:02:52it.The Minister is aware of my support for local women in Murray

1:02:52 > 1:02:57and I supported the opposition on the motion brought forward. Can I

1:02:57 > 1:03:05ask you to update as for the women looking at the legal challenge taken

1:03:05 > 1:03:10forward by the women affected by these changes.The honourable

1:03:10 > 1:03:13gentleman will be aware there is a legal challenge which has been

1:03:13 > 1:03:17brought forward. I can't comment on the outcome of it, it will be

1:03:17 > 1:03:22resisted by the government. We do not believe it has merit but clearly

1:03:22 > 1:03:28that is a matter for the women to pursue if they want to do but it

1:03:28 > 1:03:36will be definitely be resisted.I'm a fit the Minister missed the point,

1:03:36 > 1:03:42never mind the anger of 1950s women. Today my honourable friend for Stoke

1:03:42 > 1:03:46Central, a citywide pensions road show is happening. So many women

1:03:46 > 1:03:48affected by this that demand has outstripped supply and we cannot let

1:03:48 > 1:03:53everybody in. When will these women see answers and when will they have

1:03:53 > 1:04:01transitional arrangements.This matter was debated at great length

1:04:01 > 1:04:04in 1995, 2007 under the Labour government and was a matter that if

1:04:04 > 1:04:07the Labour government wished to alter the decision they could have

1:04:07 > 1:04:12done so. That particular stage, they take the view that they were

1:04:12 > 1:04:18fiscally sensible and in 2011 this matter was debated by Parliament and

1:04:18 > 1:04:21there was a concession of £1.1 billion after much consideration by

1:04:21 > 1:04:31the size by way of concession.I can only assume that the minister really

1:04:31 > 1:04:37doesn't get this. The consequences and the strength of feeling, not

1:04:37 > 1:04:41just amongst the 1950s women but amongst colleagues is extremely

1:04:41 > 1:04:47angry. I can offer some help, maybe, if he was to meet with myself and

1:04:47 > 1:04:50the honourable member for East Worthing and Shoreham, we could

1:04:50 > 1:04:53share with them the findings of consultation we recently undertook

1:04:53 > 1:05:01on behalf of the state pension equality committee. Maybe then we

1:05:01 > 1:05:04could talk him through the problem and encourage him to do the right

1:05:04 > 1:05:11thing. Acknowledge the problem and come up with a respectful and serve.

1:05:11 > 1:05:16With respect, this matter has been debated since 1995, long before I

1:05:16 > 1:05:21arrived in this house and before the Honourable ready arrived in the size

1:05:21 > 1:05:24and successive governments have taken a similar view as to the

1:05:24 > 1:05:29appropriateness of the action based on affordability, work ability and

1:05:29 > 1:05:37the quality of the legislation. There is a shortage of time for any

1:05:37 > 1:05:44business contacts. All the political parties are involved in this, the

1:05:44 > 1:05:49Conservative, Labour over 13 years did little. None of us have a clean

1:05:49 > 1:05:55hand. Secondly, I would urge the Minister to address freedom possible

1:05:55 > 1:06:00-- the possible options.Labourers's cost neutral option, giving some

1:06:00 > 1:06:04indication of transition and would be Minister accept, the

1:06:04 > 1:06:09Parliamentary ombudsman took some cases and concluded that

1:06:09 > 1:06:12communication has been absolutely shocking by all the political

1:06:12 > 1:06:18governments. -- governance.The honourable gentleman walked through

1:06:18 > 1:06:23the lobby with myself in 2011 to pass the 2011 act when a Liberal

1:06:23 > 1:06:31party was a party of financial discipline. I believe that we took

1:06:31 > 1:06:35the right decision at the particular time for that the so-called cost

1:06:35 > 1:06:40neutral option, I can sure the honourable gentleman that it is

1:06:40 > 1:06:46neither workable nor cost neutral and certainly it is the case that on

1:06:46 > 1:06:49an ongoing basis, the government is sticking to the position it has put

1:06:49 > 1:06:52forward since 1995, the Labour government forward for 13 years and

1:06:52 > 1:07:00the coalition government to give in 2011.The Minister has made a sad

1:07:00 > 1:07:05binary choice between paying a lower pensions or increasing state pension

1:07:05 > 1:07:11age but tensions within government spending is only one aspect. This

1:07:11 > 1:07:16government has introduced Corporation tax which will cost the

1:07:16 > 1:07:22taxpayer £50 billion by the year 2025 other tax cuts will cost £50

1:07:22 > 1:07:26million, so my honourable friend for Glasgow North, Parliamentary

1:07:26 > 1:07:29arithmetic is in favour of changes. Will he take control and actually

1:07:29 > 1:07:37make some sensible choices? We will massively disagree on economic

1:07:37 > 1:07:42theory and taxation because we believe it is right to cut taxes for

1:07:42 > 1:07:47business because businesses are what create the payments that pay for the

1:07:47 > 1:07:53public sector that we also support. The key choice, Mr Speaker, is

1:07:53 > 1:07:56whether government is able to increase state pension age or pay

1:07:56 > 1:08:00lower pensions, that is about the honourable gentleman seems unable to

1:08:00 > 1:08:07accept but I do not agree with as poster taxation. During the

1:08:07 > 1:08:12Minister's rather disappointing and predictable statement, he said again

1:08:12 > 1:08:17as the Prime Minister has toonie and an answer last year, that the women

1:08:17 > 1:08:22will make more weight more than 18 months and it isn't true. Some women

1:08:22 > 1:08:28awaiting six years seven months. Can he explain in very simplistic terms

1:08:28 > 1:08:31how it is these women are wrong and the government are right because

1:08:31 > 1:08:34these women are waiting and waiting and they are not getting their

1:08:34 > 1:08:40pensions.I can refer him to the point that I made in the speech by

1:08:40 > 1:08:44way of opening on the statement earlier. The simple point is that

1:08:44 > 1:08:50the 1995 act brought forward state pension age to 65. The Labour

1:08:50 > 1:08:53government then increase that foot of the coalition government then

1:08:53 > 1:08:56increased and accelerated the process early for that reason why it

1:08:56 > 1:09:00is referred as an 18 month acceleration in 2011 is because that

1:09:00 > 1:09:04is relative to the 1995 act timetable.

1:09:07 > 1:09:11I recently attended the launch of the WASPI Women in my constituency

1:09:11 > 1:09:16and one issue that was raised was the issue of the arbitrary deadline

1:09:16 > 1:09:20of the 31st of March of this year for those wishing to make a

1:09:20 > 1:09:25complaint. The lack of notice they received about these proposed

1:09:25 > 1:09:29changes. Can the Minister confirm that as a deadline on the 31st of

1:09:29 > 1:09:36March and the reason for it?I can get a precise answer to that but I

1:09:36 > 1:09:39will write to him on that specific point but it is the case is the

1:09:39 > 1:09:42maladministration claims being brought whether it is to the

1:09:42 > 1:09:47Independent Case Examiner or whether it is through the ombudsman itself.

1:09:47 > 1:09:52I will write to him with the details.We now come to the Select

1:09:52 > 1:09:57Committee Statement. The honourable lady, the member for Wakefield, the

1:09:57 > 1:10:03chair of the environmental audit committee will speak on the subject

1:10:03 > 1:10:08for up to ten minutes, during which, I remind the House, no interventions

1:10:08 > 1:10:11will be taken. The conclusion of the statement, I will call honourable

1:10:11 > 1:10:14members to put questions on the subject of the statement and call

1:10:14 > 1:10:18the honourable member for Wakefield to respond to these in turn. Members

1:10:18 > 1:10:25can expect to be called only once. Interventions should be questions

1:10:25 > 1:10:33and should be brief. The front bench may take part in questioning.Thank

1:10:33 > 1:10:37you very much Mr Speaker, I am grateful to you and the Backbench

1:10:37 > 1:10:40Business community for giving me the opportunity make this statement on

1:10:40 > 1:10:44behalf of the environmental audit committee about oversight report of

1:10:44 > 1:10:48this session. I'm delighted to share with has a religious report. The

1:10:48 > 1:10:52Ministry of Justice and environmental sustainability, our

1:10:52 > 1:10:57committee's remit includes carrying and regular sustainability audits of

1:10:57 > 1:11:04government departments and agencies.

1:11:04 > 1:11:08And, working closely with the National Audit Office, we look at

1:11:08 > 1:11:14whether departments are doing enough to meet their commitments. In the

1:11:14 > 1:11:17last Parliament, we published sustainability audit on the Treasury

1:11:17 > 1:11:26and on the Department for Transport for the stop --. This is... Why did

1:11:26 > 1:11:35we choose the Minister of Justice? The Government is the largest... The

1:11:35 > 1:11:38Government should be leading from the front on sustainability. It has

1:11:38 > 1:11:43signed up to the UN's global goals, and the green and Government

1:11:43 > 1:11:47commitments, which can commit departments to reduce their impact

1:11:47 > 1:11:51on the environment, and it is committed to Government buying

1:11:51 > 1:11:55standards on procurement. These three things, the global goals, the

1:11:55 > 1:12:00commitments, and the buying standards are all aimed at improving

1:12:00 > 1:12:04sustainability. The Ministry of Justice has the second-largest

1:12:04 > 1:12:07estate in Government across 1600 sites. It accounts for 20%

1:12:07 > 1:12:14Government's greenhouse gas, waste and water emissions. It is the

1:12:14 > 1:12:18second largest buyer of goods and services in Government. It spent

1:12:18 > 1:12:29£4.6 billion through external suppliers in 2015-2016. The

1:12:29 > 1:12:33committee recognises the financial pressures that the courts and prison

1:12:33 > 1:12:38services are under, but being green brings franchise still -- financial

1:12:38 > 1:12:46benefits. By improving the way that they use energy, waste and water.

1:12:46 > 1:12:50So, the ministry is committed to putting sustainable development at

1:12:50 > 1:12:54the heart of everything it does, and we, with the assistance of the NAR

1:12:54 > 1:12:58examined whether this was happening. First, we were disappointed that the

1:12:58 > 1:13:04sustainable goals were not mentioned in the ministry's departmental plan,

1:13:04 > 1:13:07despite the Government promising us that they would appear in every

1:13:07 > 1:13:13departmental plan. This is a worrying trend across Government.

1:13:13 > 1:13:16Second, how audit and covered significant weaknesses relating to

1:13:16 > 1:13:20how the ministry manages its sites, its buildings and refurbishment

1:13:20 > 1:13:24projects, is carbon emissions, vehicle fleet, and its approach to

1:13:24 > 1:13:29policy-making. On sites, the ministry's estate is one of the most

1:13:29 > 1:13:35ecological diverse in Government. Its prison and immigration removal

1:13:35 > 1:13:41Centre and centres to contain ten sites are specific interest. Only

1:13:41 > 1:13:50two of which are in a favourable position. We heard about one

1:13:50 > 1:13:58contract who destroyed a national important protected orchid meadow

1:13:58 > 1:14:01but was not penalised or held to account through the contract. The

1:14:01 > 1:14:05ministry wants all of its new buildings to achieve an excellent

1:14:05 > 1:14:13rate under the building research environmental assessment method, so

1:14:13 > 1:14:20new buildings are excellent. It wants... We found that the ministry

1:14:20 > 1:14:25has not assessed the environmental performance for nearly two thirds of

1:14:25 > 1:14:29its new build and refurbishment projects. Of the 54 that did get the

1:14:29 > 1:14:40significant Amax certificate, 14 rail to meet the required standard.

1:14:40 > 1:14:47But, also, risk the health of inmates from overheating. When the

1:14:47 > 1:14:51analysis being put forward, it is predicated on good or at excellent

1:14:51 > 1:14:55standards being achieved, so the building costs more to one or to

1:14:55 > 1:14:59manage, so that it is not actually meeting the project case that has

1:14:59 > 1:15:06been set out. We also examined her Majesty's courts and Tribunal

1:15:06 > 1:15:12services. Since 2010, 103 magistrates and 54 County Court have

1:15:12 > 1:15:15closed, and the ministry is consulting on plans to close nine

1:15:15 > 1:15:19more courts. There were gaps in guidance to staff on how to sell off

1:15:19 > 1:15:25court tribunal is, and the oversight of the contractors also showed gaps.

1:15:25 > 1:15:28For example, people tasked with selling these buildings were unaware

1:15:28 > 1:15:33of their statutory duty to tell historic England if the buildings

1:15:33 > 1:15:41were listed, or of particular local significance, and failed to minimise

1:15:41 > 1:15:48the risk of new owners letting the buildings fall into disrepair. In my

1:15:48 > 1:15:55own constituency, a building has been left to fall into ruins after

1:15:55 > 1:15:59being sold, and that leads local taxpayers to foot the bill. On

1:15:59 > 1:16:06flights, and reducing its carbon footprint, the ministry did not meet

1:16:06 > 1:16:10its targets. In fact, domestic flights are increasing. We found

1:16:10 > 1:16:16that people flying between London and Anglesey 108 flights in one

1:16:16 > 1:16:21year, when there is a perfectly good train service. 98 flights between

1:16:21 > 1:16:28London and Cardiff. Flight also between Manchester and... The

1:16:28 > 1:16:31ministry did not provide any explanation for the increase. On

1:16:31 > 1:16:37vehicles, in the autumn by object, the Chancellor committed that 25% of

1:16:37 > 1:16:40all cars in central Government departments should be electric, yet

1:16:40 > 1:16:46only two of the ministry's 1500 vehicle car Ultra low emission

1:16:46 > 1:16:51vehicles. We find that the ministry does not systematically undertaken

1:16:51 > 1:16:54by mental impact assessments for new policies, and there is a particular

1:16:54 > 1:17:01example of this: The Government tried to remove the fix cap... But,

1:17:01 > 1:17:06failed to look at the environmental impact of this decision, despite

1:17:06 > 1:17:10environmental groups saying that it would have a chilling effect on

1:17:10 > 1:17:13access to environmental justice. During our hearing, the ministry

1:17:13 > 1:17:17acknowledged many of its shortcomings, and has been working

1:17:17 > 1:17:21to improve its oversight, consistent and performance. This is welcome,

1:17:21 > 1:17:28but we urge it to improve in three areas: To follow it in guidance when

1:17:28 > 1:17:33making policy. There is a certain irony about the department tasked

1:17:33 > 1:17:38with upholding the law failing to meet its own legal requirements in

1:17:38 > 1:17:43certain areas, and providing guidance to staff and contractors,

1:17:43 > 1:17:46and finally, to improve oversight of governments were sustainability,

1:17:46 > 1:17:51including governance of its contractors, particular, for

1:17:51 > 1:17:56example, on buying standards around prison food. So, our

1:17:56 > 1:18:00recommendations, we want the ministry to set more ambitious

1:18:00 > 1:18:06targets for 2019 - 2020. We found that it was setting its targets too

1:18:06 > 1:18:11low. So that then they could say, we have met them a year or two early.

1:18:11 > 1:18:14That is no good. They need to be setting on the right side of

1:18:14 > 1:18:20impossible. They need to develop the sustainability policies and set the

1:18:20 > 1:18:26global goals and set that Howard will meet existing targets. It is to

1:18:26 > 1:18:29improve it estate management and systematically collect environmental

1:18:29 > 1:18:33ratings that are bigots for all refurbishment and new build

1:18:33 > 1:18:40projects. It should survive -- -- rating certificates for all of our

1:18:40 > 1:18:44bushman and new build projects. It should provide guidance for

1:18:44 > 1:18:49oversight on contractors but how to manage estate sustainably. This is

1:18:49 > 1:18:54including an specific scientific interests. This is particularly

1:18:54 > 1:19:00important in the wake of the collapse of Carillion which was an

1:19:00 > 1:19:05contractor on several prisons that we look at. They must show

1:19:05 > 1:19:09leadership to the rest of central Government on sustainability. So, Mr

1:19:09 > 1:19:14Speaker, if the UK is to be the at least for grant of sustainability,

1:19:14 > 1:19:21the Government must lead by example. The Ministry of Justice is failing

1:19:21 > 1:19:25to meet this requirement. If the ministry's responds to our report, I

1:19:25 > 1:19:31expect to see a clear plan X getting how can sons and addressing our

1:19:31 > 1:19:38goals. I look forward to the Government to's response, and in

1:19:38 > 1:19:44this overlooked but vital part of Government activity. I thank you Mr

1:19:44 > 1:19:52Speaker and the House for giving me the opportunity to raise this today.

1:19:52 > 1:19:56Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I would like to thank the honourable

1:19:56 > 1:20:00member for Wakefield for her very detailed and considered report. And

1:20:00 > 1:20:06the point that she makes today, these invaluable point that she has

1:20:06 > 1:20:10made and the Ministry of Justice will respond in due course in the

1:20:10 > 1:20:17usual way.Except for that grace less tribute for the minister, such

1:20:17 > 1:20:21has been a force in the incisiveness as well as the cobwebs of scope of

1:20:21 > 1:20:25the honourable lady's statement. That she has left the House

1:20:25 > 1:20:31speechless. I trust that the appropriate extract from the

1:20:31 > 1:20:38official report will be put up on her wall in one of the rooms in her

1:20:38 > 1:20:43home. LAUGHTER

1:20:43 > 1:20:47We also now come to the second select committee statement. The

1:20:47 > 1:20:51committee is the same as the previous treatment, and I called the

1:20:51 > 1:20:58chair of the work and pensions select committee.Mr Speaker I hope

1:20:58 > 1:21:04that I will leave the House silenced by my report, to them. But, to do so

1:21:04 > 1:21:10in record speed. On the 5th of December, last year, the House

1:21:10 > 1:21:15passed a motion saying that the you select committee for Work and

1:21:15 > 1:21:22Pensions Secretary reviewed the five project assessment reviews on

1:21:22 > 1:21:26Universal Credit. The Government went beyond that. All of the papers

1:21:26 > 1:21:33were almost unreadable. That, they are now, thanks to turn from pigs is

1:21:33 > 1:21:40into a silk purse. Owes everything to our clerk and when members read

1:21:40 > 1:21:45the report, they will understand precisely our debt to him. My

1:21:45 > 1:21:50request, Mr Speaker is to ask your help on two fronts. First of all,

1:21:50 > 1:21:51this huge project

1:21:51 > 1:21:56help on two fronts. First of all, this huge project, huge in

1:21:56 > 1:22:01Government finance, huge in respect of what it could and might do to our

1:22:01 > 1:22:04constituents, is based on no business case, at all. I am

1:22:04 > 1:22:11therefore, very pleased, indeed, to see my friend now in the Treasury,

1:22:11 > 1:22:19sitting there, may I ask through you, Mr Speaker that he does not

1:22:19 > 1:22:23approve further development of Universal Credit until the Treasury

1:22:23 > 1:22:31has received the... And secondly, these reports talk about the

1:22:31 > 1:22:38industrialisation of claims. This is a roll-out of a benefit which is, to

1:22:38 > 1:22:44put it at its kind list, hit and miss. -- kindest. The problem is

1:22:44 > 1:22:48that it could bring to our constituents are beyond imagination.

1:22:48 > 1:22:56The cost to taxpayers could be and will be enormous. Might I therefore,

1:22:56 > 1:23:01seek your help in getting time to allow many more members of the House

1:23:01 > 1:23:08of Commons to comment about how Universal Credit is affecting or not

1:23:08 > 1:23:12affecting their constituents. May I by thanking you the opportunity of

1:23:12 > 1:23:22presenting this report as a select committee to the House.Thank you,

1:23:22 > 1:23:26Mr Speaker. Just very briefly to thank the right honourable gentleman

1:23:26 > 1:23:31for Birkenhead for the report. Obviously, I have been before his

1:23:31 > 1:23:35select committee May last few days, and the number of his points have

1:23:35 > 1:23:40made in the report, he raised as well in that session that we had to.

1:23:40 > 1:23:45But, of course, consider this, and my up honourable friend has also

1:23:45 > 1:23:48indicated obviously that we will work closely together with the

1:23:48 > 1:23:57Treasury in reviewing the contents of this, thank you.Thank you, Mr

1:23:57 > 1:24:02Speaker. In paying tribute to the excellent work by the chavvy select

1:24:02 > 1:24:09committee, and the select committee as a whole, can I -- by the chair of

1:24:09 > 1:24:15the select committee. Does my right honourable friend share my concern

1:24:15 > 1:24:21that over seven years after it was first announced, and repeated resets

1:24:21 > 1:24:26and delays, it is clear that the Government still cannot provide

1:24:26 > 1:24:30evidence for its key claim that people claiming Universal Credit

1:24:30 > 1:24:36will be more likely to find employment, not just the single

1:24:36 > 1:24:40unemployed people without children, before cuts to work allowances, who

1:24:40 > 1:24:44appear any statistics that the Government sites, but the few full

1:24:44 > 1:24:51range of people, single parents, the self-employed, carers, disabled

1:24:51 > 1:24:53people, who are now claiming Universal Credit, as the full

1:24:53 > 1:24:59service is rolled out?I am immensely grateful for that

1:24:59 > 1:25:04question, because the central part of any business case is based on

1:25:04 > 1:25:07that there would be this movement from benefit into work. We know that

1:25:07 > 1:25:12the Government has no up to date data on that yet it is pressing

1:25:12 > 1:25:17ahead. That is why I ask my friend who is at the Treasury that they do

1:25:17 > 1:25:22not sanction further cash for this programme until the Department for

1:25:22 > 1:25:28Work and Pensions has produced that business case.Thank you, Mr

1:25:28 > 1:25:34Speaker. I want to begin by thanking the work of the chair of the DWP

1:25:34 > 1:25:40committee for this report. Given that the key economic assumption,

1:25:40 > 1:25:46and allying Universal Credit will deliver much improvement employment

1:25:46 > 1:25:49outcomes, and a full business case for the biggest reform of the

1:25:49 > 1:25:54welfare state in 50 years have not been made, that he share my concern

1:25:54 > 1:26:00is that claimants have been pushed into dire financial straits because

1:26:00 > 1:26:04it is not fit for purpose. We know that the Government says that it is

1:26:04 > 1:26:08confident about the progress of Universal Credit, but does he agree

1:26:08 > 1:26:15that any say be more openness about its internal review?

1:26:15 > 1:26:23The internal sharing of information. My underscore what the honourable

1:26:23 > 1:26:28lady says that there were constituents are on the rough end of

1:26:28 > 1:26:36this if it all goes wrong.To use your terminology, pithy question.

1:26:36 > 1:26:41Does the honourable gentleman feel that the process so far is one where

1:26:41 > 1:26:44it is IT focused and not person focused than that of the problem.

1:26:44 > 1:26:59Does he agree.It is neither that nor person focused.We come to the

1:26:59 > 1:27:03backbench motion on community bank closures. To move the motion I call

1:27:03 > 1:27:11Ruth Sneath.Can I thank the Backbench Business committee for

1:27:11 > 1:27:16granting this debate for sponsoring this timing and incredibly important

1:27:16 > 1:27:22intervention. Can I thank colleagues for their support of today's debate.

1:27:22 > 1:27:25A vote on a Friday afternoon just before recess demonstrate how

1:27:25 > 1:27:29important this issue is two hours and the communities that we

1:27:29 > 1:27:36represent. Madam Deputy Speaker, like many colleagues, I am angry and

1:27:36 > 1:27:42frustrated, as are my constituents in the last three months, and the

1:27:42 > 1:27:47towns I am so privilege to represent have all had bank branch closure

1:27:47 > 1:27:52announcements, ripping the financial heart out of my towns. What on earth

1:27:52 > 1:27:56is happening? The high street bank has played a fundamental role in our

1:27:56 > 1:28:01local economy.And our local communities for generations. It has

1:28:01 > 1:28:05been a rear constant in the ever-changing landscape of our

1:28:05 > 1:28:09market towns and city centres. These bank branches have provided and

1:28:09 > 1:28:15continue to provide a vital function for the local customers. Whether it

1:28:15 > 1:28:21is the pensioner withdrawing her money for the week or the young

1:28:21 > 1:28:27family looking to take their first steps onto the housing ladder. I am

1:28:27 > 1:28:32sure you like I can remember the intake -- being taken into the bank

1:28:32 > 1:28:39to sign up for your first account. A big moment. For me it was a NatWest

1:28:39 > 1:28:44account with a ceramic piggy bank. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker,

1:28:44 > 1:28:47as I proudly represent the potteries, how could I not celebrate

1:28:47 > 1:28:53the fact that my piggy bank was a genuine piggy bank, Woody, made in

1:28:53 > 1:28:58my constituency. These cherished childhood memories for so many of us

1:28:58 > 1:29:03suddenly may not be may not be available to the next generation.

1:29:03 > 1:29:06For millions of people up and down the country the services that local

1:29:06 > 1:29:09rented provide are as necessary as they have ever been but they are

1:29:09 > 1:29:17disappearing.Thank you for giving me and I congratulate her on

1:29:17 > 1:29:21securing the debate, my first bank was the Midland bank at 11. I have

1:29:21 > 1:29:26been a member of at 424 years much my shock. In relation to shrinking

1:29:26 > 1:29:36bank services, following NatWest get the decision to close the banks in

1:29:36 > 1:29:40my constituency, available now on the B1 banked left and Michael

1:29:40 > 1:29:43constituency, 58,000 people within the geographical area with one bank.

1:29:43 > 1:29:47Does she agree with me that it is a shocking failure of the banking

1:29:47 > 1:29:51system and banks are not following through on the banking schemes they

1:29:51 > 1:29:56are meant to be doing an communities. I agree with my

1:29:56 > 1:30:07honourable friend and many others won't agree. There is a genuine

1:30:07 > 1:30:11issue about the responsibilities of community banking because, Madam

1:30:11 > 1:30:15Deputy Speaker, when I got my first paying in book, there were 20,585

1:30:15 > 1:30:23branches across the country. By 2012, that figure had dropped to

1:30:23 > 1:30:27just 8837. In the last three years alone, we have seen a further 1500

1:30:27 > 1:30:31branches closed. That doesn't include the announcement of further

1:30:31 > 1:30:37closures made in the last three months the hole that these closures

1:30:37 > 1:30:41the bang goes far beyond an empty shop front and for the elderly or

1:30:41 > 1:30:44disabled, a three mile journey to the nearest branch is more than an

1:30:44 > 1:30:52inconvenience. In my constituency, we are facing the loss of well use

1:30:52 > 1:30:56local bank branches. And the impact on local residents and local

1:30:56 > 1:31:02businesses will be severe. We are facing the prospect of losing our

1:31:02 > 1:31:06very last bank branch, a local Lloyds. Roseland is the mother

1:31:06 > 1:31:11tongue of the potteries, as the whole house will be aware. It is on

1:31:11 > 1:31:16to the school of art and the Wellworth Institute report filth of

1:31:16 > 1:31:20October to the outstanding Titanic Brewery. If these guys go ahead,

1:31:20 > 1:31:24there will no longer be a solitary single bank. What message does that

1:31:24 > 1:31:29send to a community that are doing everything it can to support local

1:31:29 > 1:31:32businesses and improve our town centre. When did community banking

1:31:32 > 1:31:37become a phrase devoid of meaning? In Kidsgrove on Tunstall, Co-op

1:31:37 > 1:31:39customers are faced with the prospect of losing their local

1:31:39 > 1:31:45branches. The last remaining Co-op banks in my constituency. As a

1:31:45 > 1:31:49resident of Tunstall and the customer myself, I know how popular

1:31:49 > 1:31:54these branches are and the impact of the disappearance. Walk into any one

1:31:54 > 1:31:58of these branches at virtually any time of day and you will find people

1:31:58 > 1:32:01queueing. They are used by hundreds of residents as well as local

1:32:01 > 1:32:05businesses. Petitions against the closure have already attracted

1:32:05 > 1:32:09thousands of signatures. Residents have contacted me about what these

1:32:09 > 1:32:15closures mean for them. I must thank Cazalet Carl Robinson for leading

1:32:15 > 1:32:19the campaign, collecting over 1200 signatures so far and to Tom

1:32:19 > 1:32:21Simpson, Lucy Kelly and the local traders in Tunstall and Tunstall

1:32:21 > 1:32:26market for their efforts as well as the wonderful Jim Cartwright for her

1:32:26 > 1:32:32coordination of the campaign. These closures will have an immediate

1:32:32 > 1:32:37effect and impact on people's lives for the iPad from elderly

1:32:37 > 1:32:40constituents who use the Tunstall Co-op branch who will be forced

1:32:40 > 1:32:44instead to travel three miles by unreliable public transport to a

1:32:44 > 1:32:51city centre with no public conveniences. People in in their 70s

1:32:51 > 1:32:54and 80s for those with a disability, this is more than an inconvenience,

1:32:54 > 1:32:59it is a genuine struggle. This was brought home to me by one story I

1:32:59 > 1:33:01have from a constituent whose parents have used this band for many

1:33:01 > 1:33:06years. They are not technologically savvy, a weakness I and I'm sure

1:33:06 > 1:33:10others across the House share and they find it difficult to use an ATM

1:33:10 > 1:33:14to pay for things in shops using debit cards. If the House but humour

1:33:14 > 1:33:18me just for a moment, I would like to quote from my constituent about

1:33:18 > 1:33:23what he has to say about the closure... My parents are 81 and 83

1:33:23 > 1:33:29years old. They have used the Co-op bank in Tunstall for many years. The

1:33:29 > 1:33:34staff nor my parents very well. They are exceptionally helpful,

1:33:34 > 1:33:36supportive, patient and ensure that the understand everything that they

1:33:36 > 1:33:41need to when they leave. Knowing that my parents have this kind of

1:33:41 > 1:33:44support when I am unable to be there every day provides me with a great

1:33:44 > 1:33:50deal of reassurance. I am extremely grateful for this. I am sure we all

1:33:50 > 1:33:56know people who benefit from this level of personal service and for

1:33:56 > 1:34:00who the faceless and building world of online banking simply will not

1:34:00 > 1:34:06work. In fact, in my great city, too many of my constituents don't even

1:34:06 > 1:34:11have access to the Internet. In the last three months, the ONS suggests

1:34:11 > 1:34:18that up to 51,000 people, one in four of over 16 is in Stoke-on-Trent

1:34:18 > 1:34:24haven't accessed the Internet. One in four. For the record, that's over

1:34:24 > 1:34:28double the national average, which makes talk of Internet banking of

1:34:28 > 1:34:35the panacea of this crisis absolute nonsense. For businesses, these

1:34:35 > 1:34:38closures present a genuine challenge for their business. For those who

1:34:38 > 1:34:43trade primarily in cash, it is neither safe nor practical to expect

1:34:43 > 1:34:48staff to travel halfway across the city in order to deposit money. For

1:34:48 > 1:34:52small businesses with a limited number of employees. The time this

1:34:52 > 1:34:57will take out of their day is a real hindrance. One of the defence is

1:34:57 > 1:35:01that are often given in advance of these closures is that nearby ATMs

1:35:01 > 1:35:05will continue to be available. Get hundreds of these even are at risk

1:35:05 > 1:35:10of being closed down thanks to the proposed overhaul of the Link

1:35:10 > 1:35:14network what is more common services provided by external ATMs are

1:35:14 > 1:35:20incredibly limited, even compared only to the automated services

1:35:20 > 1:35:25available in bank branches. The Post Office also provides a valuable

1:35:25 > 1:35:32service and in 3000 locations and soon including my town is the last

1:35:32 > 1:35:38banking retailer in town. The restructuring process has led to

1:35:38 > 1:35:42branches closing and we don't know what the future holds. Of course,

1:35:42 > 1:35:44while the Post Office can support customers looking to withdraw or

1:35:44 > 1:35:50deposit cash, intense provide the same range of services as a bank can

1:35:50 > 1:35:54-- it cannot provide.Does she agree with me that many people actually

1:35:54 > 1:35:58are not necessarily aware of the services available in Post Office

1:35:58 > 1:36:02and if they are, they don't always want to do their banking on a local

1:36:02 > 1:36:07shop that may be busy now a lot of post offices are based.I couldn't

1:36:07 > 1:36:11agree more with the honourable member. In fact, one of my concerns

1:36:11 > 1:36:16is that no assessment is done, not diminished vision of local post

1:36:16 > 1:36:19offices about whether they have the capacity to with these issues when a

1:36:19 > 1:36:24bank closure occurs in a community. This leads me onto my next point.

1:36:24 > 1:36:27Britain has often been described as a nation of shopkeepers. What does

1:36:27 > 1:36:33it say about us if we are unable to maintain the National banking

1:36:33 > 1:36:37infrastructure that our small traders need. There is a safety

1:36:37 > 1:36:42aspect to these closures as well. Should the final Lloyds branch in

1:36:42 > 1:36:47verse and prose the only remaining ATMs will be inside shops, there

1:36:47 > 1:36:50will be no external ATMs are available in the town and nowhere to

1:36:50 > 1:36:54withdraw cash after closing time. If I were to go for a drink in bursa

1:36:54 > 1:36:57and one evening and as the vice-chair of the all-party group it

1:36:57 > 1:37:06would be impolite not to, there will be nowhere for me to get cash out.

1:37:06 > 1:37:10To pay for a taxi home, for example. For many young women, I'm not sure

1:37:10 > 1:37:15if I still fall and that category are not, on a Friday night... Thank

1:37:15 > 1:37:21you very much an unending witty speaker! The prospect of walking as

1:37:21 > 1:37:26a petrol station typhoid may leave them feeling vulnerable and afraid.

1:37:26 > 1:37:31All of this is merely a snapshot of the human impact that the decline in

1:37:31 > 1:37:34community bank branches is having on communities like mine. I am deeply

1:37:34 > 1:37:37concerned about what will happen to other towns should these branches

1:37:37 > 1:37:41disappear. I had hoped that the banks would share or at least

1:37:41 > 1:37:47understand that concern. Instead, when I met with representatives from

1:37:47 > 1:37:51the co-operative bank, no longer associated with the co-operative

1:37:51 > 1:37:56group, my concerns were dismissed and ignored. When I pointed out that

1:37:56 > 1:38:01the impact assessments were riddled with obvious inaccuracies, the

1:38:01 > 1:38:04merely shrugged and said it would make no difference to their

1:38:04 > 1:38:07decision. They treated me and my constituents with contempt and they

1:38:07 > 1:38:12should be utterly ashamed of themselves. This is a bank that once

1:38:12 > 1:38:15distinguished itself in its commitment to ethical finance. So

1:38:15 > 1:38:18tell me what is ethical about leaving a community without a

1:38:18 > 1:38:22lifeline and ignoring their objectives. What is responsible

1:38:22 > 1:38:27about providing an incompetently researched impact assessment which

1:38:27 > 1:38:31sites nearby alternative branches which closed down a year ago. What

1:38:31 > 1:38:35is caring about hearing the concerns of 80-year-old men and women, who

1:38:35 > 1:38:38have used the local branch their whole lives and simply saying to

1:38:38 > 1:38:42those people, the world has moved on, there is an app for that now.

1:38:42 > 1:38:47Let's be clear, a bank which treats people this way cannot claim to be a

1:38:47 > 1:38:53community anything and they should be embarrassed to even try. As the

1:38:53 > 1:38:57statistics demonstrate, this problem is not limited to North

1:38:57 > 1:38:59Staffordshire, it is a national problem, certainly, but that does

1:38:59 > 1:39:05not mean that the hardship is evenly distributed, far from it. In fact,

1:39:05 > 1:39:10research from Nottingham University found that between 1995 and 2012,

1:39:10 > 1:39:12the areas that suffered the largest decline in branch numbers are

1:39:12 > 1:39:16characterised by unemployment rates and levels of renting from the

1:39:16 > 1:39:20public sector that are far above the national average. They concluded

1:39:20 > 1:39:25that the least affluent South of the population has borne the brunt of

1:39:25 > 1:39:29two thirds of net closures. People making those decisions might follow

1:39:29 > 1:39:34the reality of market forces but Madam Deputy Speaker, I follow

1:39:34 > 1:39:38abandoning people and communities who need you most. Whatever you

1:39:38 > 1:39:41choose to college, the facts are the same, the poorest and most

1:39:41 > 1:39:46honourable people in our country, especially those in rural or

1:39:46 > 1:39:49inner-city areas are frequently discriminated against in the bank's

1:39:49 > 1:39:54decision-making processes. The social cost of excluding low-income

1:39:54 > 1:39:59customers from mainstream financial services can be severe. It can risk

1:39:59 > 1:40:04driving people into less legitimate but more visible and convenient sing

1:40:04 > 1:40:10methods of finance, including loan sharks, legal and otherwise. The

1:40:10 > 1:40:14cost of these closures goes beyond the individual. They have long-term

1:40:14 > 1:40:17repercussions for the whole community. The campaign for

1:40:17 > 1:40:20community banking services has argued that bank closures contribute

1:40:20 > 1:40:25to the commercial decline of an area, as better of consumers change

1:40:25 > 1:40:29the purchasing habits and begin to shop, bank and even socialise

1:40:29 > 1:40:34further afield. Worse still, closures are associated with a real

1:40:34 > 1:40:43decline in local bank lending. The lending declined by 63% in four

1:40:43 > 1:40:47schools that was a bank branch and it grows to 104% for postcodes that

1:40:47 > 1:40:52lose the last bank in town. The impact on our high streets and local

1:40:52 > 1:40:58businesses and on future regeneration can be devastating.

1:40:58 > 1:41:04So, what does that mean where local people are coming together to lift

1:41:04 > 1:41:09their community up and push against years of decline? There was a time

1:41:09 > 1:41:13in the local bank was thought of as the heart of the community, so

1:41:13 > 1:41:18perhaps it still is. So, what happens to a community when it loses

1:41:18 > 1:41:22its heart? What happens when the bunch is a collision of a town is

1:41:22 > 1:41:25cut off mid-beat? What happens when the last financial lifeline

1:41:25 > 1:41:30disappears and leads the elderly and vulnerable without support? The

1:41:30 > 1:41:38world we live in is not the same as it was ten years ago. Times change,

1:41:38 > 1:41:41technology is changed and we must change with them. We also must do

1:41:41 > 1:41:50move to ensure... And we must recognise that there remains a place

1:41:50 > 1:41:54for community banking, for local lending and phosphates to phase

1:41:54 > 1:42:01advice. Which means, we need the -- face to face advice. There need to

1:42:01 > 1:42:07be imaginative and consider sector and can mean wide solutions, not

1:42:07 > 1:42:13pass the buck and playing their customers. And if they would do it

1:42:13 > 1:42:18voluntarily, Mr Speaker, then we'll have to force them to? The banking

1:42:18 > 1:42:26sector has options. They could invest in multifunctional ATMs so

1:42:26 > 1:42:34that customers can pay in money, they could find more extensively

1:42:34 > 1:42:37community-based financial education, assisting people with online

1:42:37 > 1:42:41banking. They could even, Madam Deputy Speaker, find access to

1:42:41 > 1:42:45broadband in some of the harder reached communities, so that their

1:42:45 > 1:42:49customers could access online banking. And yet, all we have had

1:42:49 > 1:42:55from the sector is silence. Madam Deputy Speaker, we need to ensure

1:42:55 > 1:43:00that our banks are working in everyone's interest, not just their

1:43:00 > 1:43:09own. I move the motion.The question is as only order paper, Mr William

1:43:09 > 1:43:17Wragg? Thank you very much, indeed. It is a pleasure to follow the

1:43:17 > 1:43:21honourable lady, the member for Stoke north, who gave a splendid

1:43:21 > 1:43:25estimation of the issues that we face in the country, as well as

1:43:25 > 1:43:29showing the dedication that she has shown to her constituents in her own

1:43:29 > 1:43:32constituency. A testament to the numbers here this afternoon. It is

1:43:32 > 1:43:40likely that we all have an interest in this issue. In the last 25 years,

1:43:40 > 1:43:45in the UK, the closure of nearly 10,000 bank branches, which is over

1:43:45 > 1:43:51half of all of them. This rate has accelerated more than 600 large

1:43:51 > 1:43:56closures in the past year. It is right that we should embrace

1:43:56 > 1:43:59technological change, but the rise of new approaches, including online

1:43:59 > 1:44:02banking means that you are faced with a decline of traditional

1:44:02 > 1:44:08banking. Many customers have a preference for in branch banking,

1:44:08 > 1:44:13preferring face to face service, the chance to talk to people, to get

1:44:13 > 1:44:18financial advice, to access their money is physically, and having the

1:44:18 > 1:44:23security of receiving a paper record to prove their banking transactions.

1:44:23 > 1:44:28One of banking's redeeming features against a backdrop of scandals has

1:44:28 > 1:44:32been the personal relationship that bank still offer to customers.

1:44:32 > 1:44:35Members of the community often struggle when a bank closes, and

1:44:35 > 1:44:39this is important for elderly vulnerable people who may not be

1:44:39 > 1:44:43using online banking. Now, my own constituency in recent years, which

1:44:43 > 1:44:47suffer from the closure of a number of local banks, and like other

1:44:47 > 1:44:53members, I am sure, my constituency has swelled as a result. In May two

1:44:53 > 1:45:00dozen 15, Lloyds bank in marked its bank would be up for closure. At the

1:45:00 > 1:45:06time, I presented a 583 petition to this has on the half of local

1:45:06 > 1:45:13residents to call on Lloyds to reconsider its decision. The bank

1:45:13 > 1:45:16went ahead regardless. This position made it harder for hundreds of

1:45:16 > 1:45:21customers to access their money and to get financial advice and face to

1:45:21 > 1:45:25face service. The NatWest has also recently closed branches in two

1:45:25 > 1:45:31local towns. The last case was particularly galling. As the

1:45:31 > 1:45:39justification given by NatWest at the time for its closure, during the

1:45:39 > 1:45:45statue she consultation process, was considering an act another branch as

1:45:45 > 1:45:50an alternative. But if you mark after shutting the first branch, the

1:45:50 > 1:45:54branch announced its intention to close the other branch to. Customers

1:45:54 > 1:45:58who had taken earlier assured about a back up branch in good faith, felt

1:45:58 > 1:46:02that they had been treated as full is, and that the behaviour of the

1:46:02 > 1:46:06bag in this instance made a mockery of the process of consulting on

1:46:06 > 1:46:12closures. Of course, if customers feel sufficiently overlooked, banks

1:46:12 > 1:46:16may find that they start voting with their debit card and switch

1:46:16 > 1:46:21accounts. Whilst I accept that decisions on bank closures are

1:46:21 > 1:46:26ultimately a commercial decision, I would urge all banks to show more

1:46:26 > 1:46:29consideration of the needs of customers and how they must best be

1:46:29 > 1:46:36met. They must think carefully before making a bank closure,

1:46:36 > 1:46:40particularly in rural or semirural areas. Whilst it may not be a matter

1:46:40 > 1:46:48for the Government to intervene directly on a decision on a regular

1:46:48 > 1:46:51basis, the Government do have a role in providing access to banking

1:46:51 > 1:46:59services. Therefore, we should consider placing a duty on the

1:46:59 > 1:47:02Financial Conduct Authority to promote financial inclusion as one

1:47:02 > 1:47:09of its core objectives. This could include a mandate to require

1:47:09 > 1:47:12financial services to meet certain standards every nation to service.

1:47:12 > 1:47:18This should require the design of products and services to be more

1:47:18 > 1:47:21inclusive and maintain central services for people who may not be

1:47:21 > 1:47:24online. During my research for this debate, I was pleased to learn that

1:47:24 > 1:47:29a lot of the services offered by banks now that can be done over the

1:47:29 > 1:47:33post office counter. The post Office continues to offer basic banking

1:47:33 > 1:47:41services to many bank customers, and 99% of banks personal and 95% of its

1:47:41 > 1:47:45business customers are now able to withdraw cash, make deposits and

1:47:45 > 1:47:51make balance enquiries at the post office counter. All post offices can

1:47:51 > 1:47:55take cash deposits of up to £2000. However, this begs two important

1:47:55 > 1:48:04questions: Firstly, what is being done to ensure that local people are

1:48:04 > 1:48:08aware of the options available following the closure of their local

1:48:08 > 1:48:12branch? And secondly, and perhaps crucially, whilst this is good news

1:48:12 > 1:48:16for customers, why is it deemed acceptable for privately owned

1:48:16 > 1:48:20banks, and indeed publicly owned bank in some circumstances, to close

1:48:20 > 1:48:27their own branches and rely on the state owned Post Office to make

1:48:27 > 1:48:31their transactions for them. Are they making a profit whilst the

1:48:31 > 1:48:35overhead costs are met by the post office? In conclusion, I would like

1:48:35 > 1:48:39to thank everybody for turning up today and participating in this

1:48:39 > 1:48:42debate. I look forward to hearing contributions and the response from

1:48:42 > 1:48:49the Minister.Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank you for

1:48:49 > 1:48:55calling me so early in this debate, because I have a very long way to

1:48:55 > 1:48:59travel, and I like to apologise and not being there when the winding up

1:48:59 > 1:49:02speeches take place. It is not intentional. Can I also congratulate

1:49:02 > 1:49:09the honourable member for making a first-class speech. I believe that

1:49:09 > 1:49:12she covered every single point, and I'm left with almost nothing to say

1:49:12 > 1:49:16as a result of this, which is rather distressing for someone like me who

1:49:16 > 1:49:23have a tendency to be verbose, but there we are. This issue causes me a

1:49:23 > 1:49:26amount of personal pain, because I have a number of friends who work

1:49:26 > 1:49:31for the Royal Bank at all levels of that bank, and my comment about the

1:49:31 > 1:49:35Royal Bank of Scotland are not intended particular at the Royal

1:49:35 > 1:49:40Bank of Scotland, but at the system in general. In my constituency, we

1:49:40 > 1:49:46are faced with the closure of three branches. One of which, in the

1:49:46 > 1:49:50north-west, maybe on hold. However, in the old Royal Borough of Tain and

1:49:50 > 1:49:57wit, the intention is to close them. I have never seen an issue that is

1:49:57 > 1:50:01causing so much deep unhappiness amongst my constituents. Call me

1:50:01 > 1:50:05old-fashioned, but the bank manager was as much a part of the social

1:50:05 > 1:50:10structure of these communities as was the doctor, the Minister, and

1:50:10 > 1:50:16the schoolteacher. I think, particularly of what happens... From

1:50:16 > 1:50:25little acorns, mighty oaks grow. Someone with a business idea could

1:50:25 > 1:50:29go to the branch of their back and say to the manager I've got this

1:50:29 > 1:50:34idea, will you take a punt? And I have seen him my hometown, some

1:50:34 > 1:50:37serious the big businesses grow in my lifetime from absolutely nothing

1:50:37 > 1:50:44to do but -- at all by a brave that by the bank manager. Do not

1:50:44 > 1:50:48underestimate that. The point about the post offices: Our main post

1:50:48 > 1:50:54office in the town of Tain closed. Our post offices now very well

1:50:54 > 1:50:58start, but it is essentially newsagent. The app between the

1:50:58 > 1:51:01counter where you do your business and the magazines is only the

1:51:01 > 1:51:04difference between these two ventures. If you are trying to bank

1:51:04 > 1:51:08large amounts of money at the same time as Mrs McKenzie is trying to

1:51:08 > 1:51:13buy her copy of the Scots Magazine, and it all gets muddled. And

1:51:13 > 1:51:17frankly, the staff are getting hassled, and I do not envy their

1:51:17 > 1:51:22position one little bit. And just a short anecdote, to reflect on banks.

1:51:22 > 1:51:29My first bank account was opened when I became a student. My father

1:51:29 > 1:51:33gave me £15. It was with the Royal Bank of Scotland. In due course I

1:51:33 > 1:51:37spent it all, because I was a young first-year student and I didn't know

1:51:37 > 1:51:42what I was doing. So, when my grant cheque came in, I opened another

1:51:42 > 1:51:49account in the Bank of Scotland. And I spent all that. The trouble came

1:51:49 > 1:51:54when the two bank manager spoke to each other and they told my dad.

1:51:54 > 1:52:00There was absolutely no end of trouble over that, but in a way, for

1:52:00 > 1:52:03those of you heart who are experts on age moll, that conversation,

1:52:03 > 1:52:09perhaps not completely correct today, headed off a potential

1:52:09 > 1:52:12multiple debt situation, and I was pulled up and stop where I had to

1:52:12 > 1:52:17be. That was probably to my great benefits. It is about the human

1:52:17 > 1:52:26face, of course it is, because juice the something for... And actually

1:52:26 > 1:52:30say, don't worry, the payment will not be a footie days. That can be

1:52:30 > 1:52:34the difference between peace of mind or mental torture. It takes -- for a

1:52:34 > 1:52:44feud is. We talk about online banking, well, I can tell you. If I

1:52:44 > 1:52:49hit the icon here, it says that I have been logged out, no matter how

1:52:49 > 1:52:54hard I try, I cannot get back in again. I do not have a clue, just

1:52:54 > 1:53:00like I was 18. So, it is not for everyone. I think, that the issue

1:53:00 > 1:53:05here, as has been said by the member, is one for Government.

1:53:05 > 1:53:14Because the only way that we are going to stop the endless gloomy

1:53:14 > 1:53:20slide of closures, is that the Government to say, wait, what is the

1:53:20 > 1:53:23public service responsibility, here? And to come forward with some

1:53:23 > 1:53:29thought and guidance, perhaps as has been suggested by combining banking

1:53:29 > 1:53:35facilities, getting them to work together for a one-stop shop. So,

1:53:35 > 1:53:42Madam Deputy Speaker, I would close by saying I look for something

1:53:42 > 1:53:45coming from the Government to say, we recognise that this is their

1:53:45 > 1:53:51responsibility, that this is a danger to society, and that these

1:53:51 > 1:53:55are the proposals that we intend to bring forward, and I wait, and I am

1:53:55 > 1:54:02at up to Mr, and I hope there will be something that will sort this one

1:54:02 > 1:54:08and fraud. -- I am an optimist. Thank you very much. I am grateful

1:54:08 > 1:54:14to the back bench committee for granting this debate. This is an

1:54:14 > 1:54:18important issue, particularly in rural constituencies such as my own.

1:54:18 > 1:54:23My constituency of some 250 square mile in West Sussex consists only of

1:54:23 > 1:54:28small market towns and villages. Varane large towns, and if one of

1:54:28 > 1:54:36those villages, which have high streets -- there are no large towns.

1:54:36 > 1:54:41If one of those villages loses its banking facilities that immediately

1:54:41 > 1:54:46have a knock on effect to the businesses which are in the village

1:54:46 > 1:54:57or small market town, to the neighbours, and it is of little use

1:54:57 > 1:55:00to those businesses, and indeed it is very inconvenient to be told that

1:55:00 > 1:55:05we had to travel to a settlement which is some miles away. Very

1:55:05 > 1:55:10often, following his closures, there has not been an alternative retail

1:55:10 > 1:55:17high Street facility in the same village or small market town. We

1:55:17 > 1:55:20start off with a collective agreement that it is important that

1:55:20 > 1:55:28we maintain banking Brazil it is in this area. -- these areas. We are

1:55:28 > 1:55:32not yet in a position where we have a cashless dam a cashless society.

1:55:32 > 1:55:37Local charities, many of them are still ready to collect in cash, and

1:55:37 > 1:55:43indeed checks, and they need these facilities as well. That said, I

1:55:43 > 1:55:47think there are two important point, here. I think that we have to

1:55:47 > 1:55:49acknowledge the march of technology, and the huge growth in the numbers

1:55:49 > 1:55:54of customers that are now using online banking services, and that

1:55:54 > 1:55:58has changed entirely the shape of retail banking, and the numbers of

1:55:58 > 1:56:02people who are visiting some of the high Street banks in my constituency

1:56:02 > 1:56:11base closures, Belgian unsustainably small level. And, it was absolutely

1:56:11 > 1:56:20-- fell to an unsustainably small level. Police forces confronted with

1:56:20 > 1:56:29the reality and taxi very few people in deed... Only a handful of people

1:56:29 > 1:56:32were visiting police stations, many of those actually requiring

1:56:32 > 1:56:37reporting to be made at the police stations, recognise that it was not

1:56:37 > 1:56:42actually the best way for police to maintain a footprint of their

1:56:42 > 1:56:45community, by maintaining an underused building. And, there were

1:56:45 > 1:56:49more innovative ways for the police to maintain presence in the local

1:56:49 > 1:56:52committees, and that could very often be through shared communities,

1:56:52 > 1:56:57through setting up pop up shops in pace were lots of people were, for

1:56:57 > 1:57:02instance in supermarkets, and indeed developing their online presence.

1:57:02 > 1:57:08And that, actually, represent a change in the nature of business of

1:57:08 > 1:57:20policing, the shape of policing, and how it's

1:57:20 > 1:57:23Forces could instantly withdrawn, there has the presence in

1:57:23 > 1:57:26communities. It may take a different form but there has to be a presence

1:57:26 > 1:57:32and accessibility. We have the opportunity of ensuring that local

1:57:32 > 1:57:35banking services can be provided in these communities on an ongoing

1:57:35 > 1:57:42basis by post offices and we have heard from my honourable friend,,

1:57:42 > 1:57:47following the new Deal the Post Office has done with Lloyds, the

1:57:47 > 1:57:53coverage they can provide for basic banking services is now very high.

1:57:53 > 1:58:0699% for individual private customers and 95% for businesses. I suspect

1:58:06 > 1:58:08there is relatively low awareness that post offices can provide the

1:58:08 > 1:58:16services, so I agree with the honourable member to have set that

1:58:16 > 1:58:20it's quite important there is a proper campaign of information to

1:58:20 > 1:58:24local businesses were high feedbacks are lost to explain what services

1:58:24 > 1:58:32can be provided by the local post offices. It's not good enough to put

1:58:32 > 1:58:36out a newsletter saying the bank is closing to their customers. The

1:58:36 > 1:58:40banks have a responsibility and they should exercise it. I think it's

1:58:40 > 1:58:46important that we maintain the post office network and ensure if these

1:58:46 > 1:58:51post offices are to become local banking hubs as well as providing

1:58:51 > 1:58:54other services which they do, which is a great opportunity for the post

1:58:54 > 1:58:58offices, a useful way to maximise the asset and ensure the investment

1:58:58 > 1:59:04that is made in the post office network can be realised.I take on

1:59:04 > 1:59:07board entirely what the honourable gentleman is saying but surely where

1:59:07 > 1:59:12you have. This using a retail premises that is entirely

1:59:12 > 1:59:15unsuitable, it must be up to the post office network to negotiate

1:59:15 > 1:59:19suitable retail premises rather than unsuitable for the service he is

1:59:19 > 1:59:25talking about. White man we have two insure the post office premises, if

1:59:25 > 1:59:30they become the only banking services which are in a village or

1:59:30 > 1:59:36small market town are suitable.The post office, in identifying premises

1:59:36 > 1:59:41is to ensure is the case and that the banking services can be

1:59:41 > 1:59:45provided. In my constituency over the past few days, the online

1:59:45 > 1:59:50systems have been down. There have been no banking services as a

1:59:50 > 1:59:54result. There have been problems in various villages and small market

1:59:54 > 2:00:01towns in my constituency where suitable post office can be found.

2:00:01 > 2:00:04Suitable premises cannot be found and we have a suspension of post

2:00:04 > 2:00:09office services for a period of months, even though the Post Office

2:00:09 > 2:00:14policy is that there will be a Post Office outlet in those communities.

2:00:14 > 2:00:19It cannot happen if the post office is become increasingly important

2:00:19 > 2:00:23because they are now providing banking facilities as well as all

2:00:23 > 2:00:25the other important facilities they were providing for the local

2:00:25 > 2:00:33community. We need some more creative thinking in this area and

2:00:33 > 2:00:39we cannot just allow the banks to step away from their

2:00:39 > 2:00:43responsibilities and take away from the thinking and responsibility that

2:00:43 > 2:00:46they have to ensure better services in this regard. I agree with the

2:00:46 > 2:00:49honourable lady with a point she was making an government has a role to

2:00:49 > 2:00:55play because it's about stepping in the market isn't working properly.

2:00:55 > 2:00:58It's not working because there is insufficient demand for banking

2:00:58 > 2:01:02services in these areas in their traditional form but those services

2:01:02 > 2:01:07are still very important to local communities whose high streets are

2:01:07 > 2:01:12under great stress. Our high streets in rural areas have been suffering

2:01:12 > 2:01:19from the impact of globalisation and competition from our online retail

2:01:19 > 2:01:24services. It's very difficult for the small businesses to keep their

2:01:24 > 2:01:27heads above water as it is an banking services are very important

2:01:27 > 2:01:33for them. If the government's objective helmet in the vibrancy of

2:01:33 > 2:01:38these high streets and it is, some very active measures to ensure that

2:01:38 > 2:01:44post offices are promoting the best banking services and they are well

2:01:44 > 2:01:47publicised, the banks are stepping up to the plate and helping

2:01:47 > 2:01:51contribute to ensure the banking services can be universal and are

2:01:51 > 2:01:53just as good as the services provided before. All those things

2:01:53 > 2:01:59can be done. I had a use meeting with post office senior management

2:01:59 > 2:02:04to discuss this. My honourable friend didn't predecessor

2:02:04 > 2:02:08acknowledged these points and I know the government is concerned to

2:02:08 > 2:02:12ensure that banking services are provided by the must look forward to

2:02:12 > 2:02:18what can be created here using the network we already have for post

2:02:18 > 2:02:22offices and ensure they are provided properly and I don't think it helps

2:02:22 > 2:02:27us just to look backwards and think we can set a retail banking model in

2:02:27 > 2:02:33aspect when it is actually failing because it will not provide the

2:02:33 > 2:02:39services necessary for the wider community and supplies are very

2:02:39 > 2:02:42small number of customers. We need banking services in these areas,

2:02:42 > 2:02:45they could be provided more creatively and inevitably but it

2:02:45 > 2:02:54needs government help and needs the bank to play their part as well.

2:02:54 > 2:02:58Before I call the next honourable member to speak. I ought to point

2:02:58 > 2:03:03out for the sake of clarity that we are in very unusual circumstances

2:03:03 > 2:03:09today because the timing of this business has changed and changed and

2:03:09 > 2:03:17changed again and I appreciate that this is the last before a recess and

2:03:17 > 2:03:22people who have long distances to travel are in some difficulty. I

2:03:22 > 2:03:29have allowed for more leniency than is usual, first of all in the timing

2:03:29 > 2:03:34of people arriving for the beginning of the debate and secondly in the

2:03:34 > 2:03:40timing of their departure, either before or after the windups. I would

2:03:40 > 2:03:45like to make it absolutely clear to the House that this does not create

2:03:45 > 2:03:51a precedent, absolutely not. We have a combination of circumstances today

2:03:51 > 2:03:58which is highly unusual and that is why I have allowed leniency. Not on

2:03:58 > 2:04:07other occasions.I'm sure on behalf of all of us, we seek your words and

2:04:07 > 2:04:11thank you for your consideration this afternoon. Could I congratulate

2:04:11 > 2:04:13my honourable friend, the member for Stoke-on-Trent North and the

2:04:13 > 2:04:19honourable member list -- member for his oral. Listening to the Right

2:04:19 > 2:04:22Honourable member for Arundel and South Downs, I listen carefully to

2:04:22 > 2:04:27what he said but I'm afraid he seemed to be talking himself into a

2:04:27 > 2:04:32bank closure by his statements because it is about banking services

2:04:32 > 2:04:39by Dale we can also focus on a need to creatively think about the sort

2:04:39 > 2:04:44of sustainable bank community hub that is necessary, maybe not in our

2:04:44 > 2:04:48cities or even what down the street and walked past six banks in half a

2:04:48 > 2:04:52kilometre but for our small town communities and semirural

2:04:52 > 2:04:57communities around the United Kingdom for whom it is the bank's

2:04:57 > 2:05:00presence in and a new sustainable form that we are fighting for and

2:05:00 > 2:05:07championing today. In August 2017, Reuters reported bank branches

2:05:07 > 2:05:12across Britain have closed at a rate of 300 per year since 1989. The

2:05:12 > 2:05:17Daily Mail reported in December 2017 that over 1000 branches had caused

2:05:17 > 2:05:25in the two years of 2015 and 2016 and a record 802 branches closed in

2:05:25 > 2:05:312017. The accelerating pace of closures appears relentless. In my

2:05:31 > 2:05:37dog Valley constituency. The town of tech Hill lost its last banking

2:05:37 > 2:05:432015, and 2016 the tone of Thorn lost its HSBC branch and in November

2:05:43 > 2:05:492017. RBS served notice that the tone would also lose its mass --

2:05:49 > 2:05:53NatWest branch and eternal board is to lose its last bank branch also, a

2:05:53 > 2:05:59NatWest. The previous government's response to this relentless wave of

2:05:59 > 2:06:03bank orders was to announce an access to banking protocol in March

2:06:03 > 2:06:0920 15. It is clear now that the protocol was not what it seems. It

2:06:09 > 2:06:13laid out a timetable for consultation about the impact and

2:06:13 > 2:06:17the provision of alternative banking. No mechanism to stop a

2:06:17 > 2:06:23branch closing. The process for closure has been determined, a

2:06:23 > 2:06:27mechanism to hold a closure is nonexisting. Communities have no

2:06:27 > 2:06:32more chance of stopping the closure than they did in 2015. The

2:06:32 > 2:06:37government has done and is doing nothing to change this, it is a

2:06:37 > 2:06:40private matter, commercial matter. We have been told on several

2:06:40 > 2:06:44occasions during Prime Minister's Questions in recent times. It is as

2:06:44 > 2:06:47if closures when an inconvenient truth that the government declines

2:06:47 > 2:06:53to collect statistics on closures or how many communities are now without

2:06:53 > 2:06:59any banking services. The banks would have you believe that it is a

2:06:59 > 2:07:04story of enlightened pensioners managing their eyes as an direct

2:07:04 > 2:07:06debits on their smartphones, the truth is harder to get to. This

2:07:06 > 2:07:13house is not nostalgic. All opposed to telephone or smartphone banking,

2:07:13 > 2:07:17we're not against people managing payment on their PCs. The selective

2:07:17 > 2:07:23figures provided by RBS NatWest to justify closure provide a completely

2:07:23 > 2:07:27different -- distorted impression of the worth of the NatWest branch to

2:07:27 > 2:07:34each of the towns Ndong Valley. RBS were keen to tell me that 88% of

2:07:34 > 2:07:40customers and 86% of foreign customers now bank in other ways.

2:07:40 > 2:07:43Just 40 custom zones and 69 and Thorn attend a branch on a weekly

2:07:43 > 2:07:46basis. The time viewed for this estimate was not provided to me.

2:07:46 > 2:07:52When a member of my staff went to NatWest in midweek in mid-January, a

2:07:52 > 2:07:56quiet post-Christmas week, they saw a queue outside the bank before it

2:07:56 > 2:08:01opened at 10am and at 1045 they found a queue more than ten deep in

2:08:01 > 2:08:06the bank with several counters in use. When I asked RBS how many

2:08:06 > 2:08:11transactions take place at this branch, in the first hour of each

2:08:11 > 2:08:14day since the New Year, the bank refused to disclose this

2:08:14 > 2:08:21information. It was commercially sensitive, I was told. Now would RBS

2:08:21 > 2:08:26furnish me with what proportion of the customers of person he --

2:08:26 > 2:08:29pensioners, how many transactions took place in each branch in the

2:08:29 > 2:08:33last year by neither branch opened the weekend on a Saturday morning,

2:08:33 > 2:08:37where footfall could be more frequent. So much for dialogue and

2:08:37 > 2:08:45consultation. When I say to Ross McEwan, RBS chief executive. And the

2:08:45 > 2:08:47personal business lending chief executive, please an opportunity

2:08:47 > 2:08:51with offers to meet a senior representative when you refuse to

2:08:51 > 2:08:55provide information which may demonstrate that small businesses,

2:08:55 > 2:08:57pensioners of the community generally may need the services

2:08:57 > 2:09:04provided under Thorn and other branches than you care to admit. In

2:09:04 > 2:09:07response to a question about the possibility of branches sharing

2:09:07 > 2:09:12premises to make them more viable, I was told by Mr Matheson that

2:09:12 > 2:09:18NatWest's arrangement with the post office means the post offices are

2:09:18 > 2:09:21now shared premises, on that basis, why have any branches at all, the

2:09:21 > 2:09:27post office is NatWest. Where is the genuine attempt to find a model for

2:09:27 > 2:09:30sustainable banking in these communities? Instead of small

2:09:30 > 2:09:36corners in corner shops, why can't post offices be located in secure

2:09:36 > 2:09:39bank premises, sharing them with more than one bank. Why can several

2:09:39 > 2:09:46banks have staff in both places. Bank sharing overheads in secure

2:09:46 > 2:09:52premises to create a community of banking hub. That could be a win-win

2:09:52 > 2:09:58situation. Where is the attempt to bring young people into branches,

2:09:58 > 2:10:02some real outreach to make them see the bank as more than an app on a

2:10:02 > 2:10:07smartphone. I don't know about colleagues around the House today

2:10:07 > 2:10:12but I am getting lobbied by banks about the latest application to

2:10:12 > 2:10:16provide for financial inclusion. They are always telling me about how

2:10:16 > 2:10:19they want to do more in our schools and communities to give people the

2:10:19 > 2:10:24skills to not only press a button on a computer or click on an

2:10:24 > 2:10:29application but to actually understand what financial literacy

2:10:29 > 2:10:33really means. They are always lobbying as but I don't see any

2:10:33 > 2:10:37effort to attract young people into branches to help them with financial

2:10:37 > 2:10:41decisions and let's not stop at young people. Many of my

2:10:41 > 2:10:44constituents do not have a bank account at all and have never had

2:10:44 > 2:10:48one. There are plenty of other people who still don't know quite

2:10:48 > 2:10:53how to go about getting a mortgage or how to run and I sat for to save

2:10:53 > 2:10:54or pay off debt.

2:10:57 > 2:11:02My honourable friend is making an excellent point to attract people

2:11:02 > 2:11:05into branches. Many banks have been dinners over a number of users try

2:11:05 > 2:11:08to drive people out of the branches by taking essential services away

2:11:08 > 2:11:16from that branch.

2:11:16 > 2:11:22In I absolutely agree. You would think that they... It is this a self

2:11:22 > 2:11:25fulfilling prophecy that they are creating. Madam Deputy Speaker,

2:11:25 > 2:11:29Parliament needs to demand more from Government, and more from the big