0:00:00 > 0:00:03Office not only responding but also producing the lessons learnt report,
0:00:03 > 0:00:10to show that Parliament can be involved in these voting processes.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14Point of order Jonathan Ashworth.I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker.
0:00:14 > 0:00:19I'm sure you have seen the news that a trust in Gloucester has announced
0:00:19 > 0:00:24it is setting up a wholly-owned subsidiary, where hospital trusts
0:00:24 > 0:00:29essentially set up a private company and transfer NHS staff and indeed
0:00:29 > 0:00:33assets into that company. Dozens of hospitals are doing this, or are
0:00:33 > 0:00:39looking at doing this, because of the underfunding of the NHS. It will
0:00:39 > 0:00:44create a workforce with thousands of jobs that could be transferred, and
0:00:44 > 0:00:47essentially it is a back door privatisation. As the Secretary for
0:00:47 > 0:00:54health given new evidence Mike Riddle any notice -- given any
0:00:54 > 0:00:59evidence that the funding of the NHS is the funding of a public health
0:00:59 > 0:01:04service which is being undermined in this way?I thank the honourable
0:01:04 > 0:01:08gentleman for his point of order. I haven't received any notification
0:01:08 > 0:01:13that the Secretary of State intends to make a statement on this issue.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17But I am sure the Treasury bench will have heard the concern, and the
0:01:17 > 0:01:24honourable gentleman well, I'm sure, continue to pursue this through the
0:01:24 > 0:01:32roots that he is well aware of in this house. Thank you. We now come
0:01:32 > 0:01:39to the backbench motion on seasonal migrant workers.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that this house has
0:01:48 > 0:01:51considered the introduction of a seasonal agricultural migrant
0:01:51 > 0:01:55scheme. I would like to thank the backbench business committee for
0:01:55 > 0:01:59accepting this application for such an important debate on the Right
0:01:59 > 0:02:02honourable and honourable members who have supported this application,
0:02:02 > 0:02:06and those in the British agricultural community who have
0:02:06 > 0:02:09campaigned relentlessly on this issue and the work of the APPG, that
0:02:09 > 0:02:15they have carried out. Of which I am the vice-chair. £1.2 billion was the
0:02:15 > 0:02:23value... I will give way, yes.I thank the honourable member for
0:02:23 > 0:02:29giving way, is she not a bit surprised, the word agriculture is
0:02:29 > 0:02:33in the title, but this is not being responded to by Defra but we have a
0:02:33 > 0:02:38Home Office minister responding. Shouldn't Defra put forward their
0:02:38 > 0:02:43position on this crucial issue?I do believe that we have the right
0:02:43 > 0:02:55minister on the front, that is what I am fighting. With the sector grew
0:02:55 > 0:03:00131% over the last two decades, these figures are proof of all of
0:03:00 > 0:03:03the skill, talent and industrious nature of the British farmer. My own
0:03:03 > 0:03:08constituency of Angus reveals the true scale of production that is now
0:03:08 > 0:03:14possible. Despite being less than 3% of the country, we certainly pull
0:03:14 > 0:03:19our weight. We produce over 30% of Scotland's soft fruits. The noble
0:03:19 > 0:03:23strawberry is symbolic of Angus and a wonderful experience for any of my
0:03:23 > 0:03:26constituents to be able to buy a planet on their doorstep which has
0:03:26 > 0:03:30grown in the surrounding countryside. Given the sizeable
0:03:30 > 0:03:34industry, within the first two months of being elected, I
0:03:34 > 0:03:39personally toured all of the major advance in Angus. I was greeted with
0:03:39 > 0:03:45a product with a taste and a flavour that anyone would envy. However I
0:03:45 > 0:03:50was also confronted with something else... A struggling sector.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Automation and modernisation at the centre of the British farming
0:03:53 > 0:03:56sector, as they should be with anyone who wishes to thrive. There
0:03:56 > 0:04:00are certain aspects of getting a crop from the fields to the
0:04:00 > 0:04:03supermarket shelf which requires a human touch and the always rely, to
0:04:03 > 0:04:08a degree, and manual labour. At this time committee picking and
0:04:08 > 0:04:13harvesting of soft crops can only be done effectively by hand. The
0:04:13 > 0:04:16picking of crops requires efficiency, injuries and is
0:04:16 > 0:04:19deceptive level of knowledge. It isn't a simple task. The whole
0:04:19 > 0:04:27production is not down to unskilled labour -- endurance. It is learned
0:04:27 > 0:04:31three years of working on farms. Without question, it is tough work.
0:04:31 > 0:04:36I remember as a child in a free picking was sold to me as a fun day
0:04:36 > 0:04:40out. As soon as the sick feeling overcame me from eating too many
0:04:40 > 0:04:49raspberries, the feeling wore off! The honourable lady has given way, I
0:04:49 > 0:04:56was brought up in Angus in the honourable member's constituency and
0:04:56 > 0:05:02we spent at least half of our summer holidays picking strawberries and
0:05:02 > 0:05:07raspberries, and in October, we would have the potato holidays,
0:05:07 > 0:05:11picking the potato crop. That is how we grew up and learned to work. I
0:05:11 > 0:05:16congratulate the honourable member on the case that she is making, that
0:05:16 > 0:05:21this is actually a skill set that is developed. Sometimes it is even
0:05:21 > 0:05:24genetically passed through generations but it is something that
0:05:24 > 0:05:31we should be protecting. She makes a convincing case but she also believe
0:05:31 > 0:05:35that there is scope for investment in technology, and automation, in
0:05:35 > 0:05:41the area?I thank the member for his intervention. With regards to the
0:05:41 > 0:05:44point around automation, it is incredibly important that we look
0:05:44 > 0:05:50into it but I do not see fully how the soft fruit sector could adapt to
0:05:50 > 0:05:57full automation and there will always be a degree of manual labour.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Presently, around 80,000 men and women make the journey across to the
0:06:01 > 0:06:05United Kingdom to take part in this process. By 2019 it is estimated the
0:06:05 > 0:06:10figure will rise to 95,000, due to the expansion of many farms as well
0:06:10 > 0:06:14as an elongated season due to innovative farming techniques that
0:06:14 > 0:06:18we see. Mini mistake, this is seasonal work, there is no need for
0:06:18 > 0:06:23because all year round. -- make no mistake. They are required during
0:06:23 > 0:06:27the harvest itself. Precision is key. There can be no delays in
0:06:27 > 0:06:32farming. Being too early or too late can have a catastrophic effect on
0:06:32 > 0:06:37the quality and subsequent price. I will give way.I thank her for
0:06:37 > 0:06:42giving way. She just mentioned this season and duration of it. I wonder
0:06:42 > 0:06:46what she thinks the duration is. It has been put to me that roughly the
0:06:46 > 0:06:51season, because of poly tunnels, can be as much as nine months.I thank
0:06:51 > 0:06:58the member for his intervention. I would agree. And if US's recent
0:06:58 > 0:07:02report entitled Change suggests up to ten months but I would say my
0:07:02 > 0:07:05having ten months would cover the harvest of soft fruit and other
0:07:05 > 0:07:10sectors as well. I will give way. There are some other sectors where
0:07:10 > 0:07:14it is more difficult to have such an extended season like the new
0:07:14 > 0:07:17vineyards that we have in the south-east of England and in south
0:07:17 > 0:07:22Wales. It is a very short season and you actually have to make very quick
0:07:22 > 0:07:25decisions about when the right day is to start picking and if you are
0:07:25 > 0:07:29to get the best product out of the grape. Does she accept that we are
0:07:29 > 0:07:34going to have to have some wrapper system as a matter of urgency, if we
0:07:34 > 0:07:52are not going to see all of those grapes, and soft fruit, go to waste?
0:07:52 > 0:07:58In the last few years the recruitment of these 80,000 seasonal
0:07:58 > 0:08:01agricultural workers has become increasingly difficult. It's not a
0:08:01 > 0:08:07problem unique to the UK and has been encountered across Europe. In
0:08:07 > 0:08:14the past Britain's seasonal workers typically came from Eastern Europe.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18- employment and lower living standards in these regions meant the
0:08:18 > 0:08:23possibility of work in Britain was appealing. According to data
0:08:23 > 0:08:28produced by the World Bank in the year 2000 and employment in Rabin
0:08:28 > 0:08:41you, the Gideon: still at 7%, 6.2% and 16 point 2% respectively. In
0:08:41 > 0:08:442017 it was 5.1%. All members present will agree the prosperity
0:08:44 > 0:08:48enjoyed by the states should be applauded and this testimony to
0:08:48 > 0:08:51their own economic endeavours. But the impact the success has had on
0:08:51 > 0:08:59British farming along with other factors including the weakened pound
0:08:59 > 0:09:03and the desire for a more permanent role is why we are here today.
0:09:03 > 0:09:08Without sufficient farmers crops are left to rot in the field. A scene
0:09:08 > 0:09:12which was witnessed last year. Some farmers for the first time had to
0:09:12 > 0:09:15watch their wonderful premium produce waste away in the fields as
0:09:15 > 0:09:23the workforce had dispersed. A recent survey by NFU S horticulture
0:09:23 > 0:09:27and potato members between January and February this year had some
0:09:27 > 0:09:30startling outcomes which I hope will convey the seriousness of the
0:09:30 > 0:09:35consideration. 100% of those who were contacted said they were
0:09:35 > 0:09:39concerned or very concerned about the impact labour shortages would
0:09:39 > 0:09:44have on their businesses in 2018 and beyond. 46% said there was
0:09:44 > 0:09:55difficulty in harvesting the 2017 crop. 65% responded by saying
0:09:55 > 0:10:08implying non-EU workers was more difficult. I will give way.As she
0:10:08 > 0:10:13heard from growers in might instead UNC the particular worry is the
0:10:13 > 0:10:16decline in the number of returning workers. The returning workforce is
0:10:16 > 0:10:21important. They are used to having the same workers coming back year
0:10:21 > 0:10:23after year who already have the skills and knowledge to be effective
0:10:23 > 0:10:32workers. There is a decline and that is a particular worry.I absolutely
0:10:32 > 0:10:43agree. Workers come back for eight, 910 years and we are seeing a
0:10:43 > 0:10:48decline in that particular area. We are losing that skill in British
0:10:48 > 0:10:59farms. The most alarming thing is that if the figures don't stack up
0:10:59 > 0:11:05there is little choice, to how difficult it is. 50% of respondents
0:11:05 > 0:11:09said they were very likely to downsize their business. 42% said
0:11:09 > 0:11:16they would cease collectivity. But if summer fruits which collectively
0:11:16 > 0:11:20represent 90% of growers in the sector is carried out similar survey
0:11:20 > 0:11:25in 2016 which had results which reflected that. However the survey
0:11:25 > 0:11:36which is more recent is certainly more startling. I will give way.I
0:11:36 > 0:11:40was contacted a few months after the referendum by a farmer in my
0:11:40 > 0:11:43constituency who said the farm manager who had been working
0:11:43 > 0:11:50seasonally for him, a Polish gentleman, since Poland had joined
0:11:50 > 0:11:55the EU and a lot of skilled workers had never problems on the board
0:11:55 > 0:11:59until weeks after the referendum when all of them were asked about
0:11:59 > 0:12:11who they were and why they were coming into the UK. That is not
0:12:11 > 0:12:17helping people want to come here to work on farms.I don't think his
0:12:17 > 0:12:23story resonates with any of my farmers in my constituency. I do
0:12:23 > 0:12:26believe this is an issue that has been going on for a number of years
0:12:26 > 0:12:33prior to the referendum in 2016 and any farmer would agree with that.
0:12:33 > 0:12:38Action has to be taken or we will watch the demise of an industry, an
0:12:38 > 0:12:41industry so inherently British. These migrant workers enjoy coming
0:12:41 > 0:12:48to the UK and that's why so many farmers have loyalty from them. They
0:12:48 > 0:12:53are rewarded with a healthy wage. Some pickers earn up to £12 an hour.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Well above the minimum wage. With regard to a solution there is only
0:12:57 > 0:13:00one choice in my view. The introduction of a system which
0:13:00 > 0:13:05prevents individuals from European and non-European states to come to
0:13:05 > 0:13:09the UK specifically to carry out the seasonal work. This is not Labour
0:13:09 > 0:13:12that can be undertaken by the existing British workforce. We do
0:13:12 > 0:13:21not have the numbers in the year which require them. Early starts and
0:13:21 > 0:13:29intense work is the norm. This is skilled work. While one can pick the
0:13:29 > 0:13:32fruit to achieve the rate that is necessary requires stamina and
0:13:32 > 0:13:38skill. Putting it simply, it's hard graft. Without question if the job
0:13:38 > 0:13:43is available British person should be able to have the chance to
0:13:43 > 0:13:50compete on a roll. I am reminded one example which this point. There is a
0:13:50 > 0:13:54producer who has on two instances attempted fine seasonal staff and on
0:13:54 > 0:14:03the first occasion the worker worked with the job centre and there was a
0:14:03 > 0:14:08high volume of local applicants and the producer went on to higher 90
0:14:08 > 0:14:13workers. Within three weeks only ten members of staff remained. In 2017
0:14:13 > 0:14:19the same producer offered 12 jobs, ten employees started and only two
0:14:19 > 0:14:21remain. The job is simply an attractive to the domestic
0:14:21 > 0:14:27workforce. In July last year the member for Tiverton held a debate on
0:14:27 > 0:14:29this topic and he stressed the need for the introduction of a seasonal
0:14:29 > 0:14:42migrant scheme. The need for the scheme has only grown with time. As
0:14:42 > 0:14:47has the support for it. I am so grateful for the encouragement and
0:14:47 > 0:14:54backing from the entire chamber with your representatives urging the
0:14:54 > 0:14:58government to act. This is an issue I have strongly supported since
0:14:58 > 0:15:02coming into office and when I know will require the input of the
0:15:02 > 0:15:07farming community. Following constant lobbying from farmers I
0:15:07 > 0:15:10have taken the case to the Secretary of State for environment and rural
0:15:10 > 0:15:19affairs and the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister herself. I have
0:15:19 > 0:15:22pressed our argument at every level. Every time I have delivered my case
0:15:22 > 0:15:25it has been recognised and I will continue to push for swift action. I
0:15:25 > 0:15:38will give way.Would she agree that this is a is an important issue of
0:15:38 > 0:15:42course but there are many other industries that would like the
0:15:42 > 0:15:48government to look at the immigration status of their workers.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51The government should be doing a very extensive piece of work and
0:15:51 > 0:15:59what the immigration system should look like post-Brexit.Obviously
0:15:59 > 0:16:05there is a lot of work going on through the NEC and that will be
0:16:05 > 0:16:11produced in the autumn. I agree it's not just the agricultural sector but
0:16:11 > 0:16:21hospitality and many other sectors which are worried. I was delighted
0:16:21 > 0:16:23when the honourable member facilities except within invite to
0:16:23 > 0:16:28this last month where we toured the largest fruit from inmates
0:16:28 > 0:16:31constituency. During the meeting repeated questions on the subject I
0:16:31 > 0:16:40was finally promised that a clear as it would be given. It was not in the
0:16:40 > 0:16:43time frame I have requested nor in which the farming community
0:16:43 > 0:16:49requires. They need clarity -- clarity and they needed urgently.
0:16:49 > 0:16:56Why do we need this urgently? Harvest 2018. It's imperative we act
0:16:56 > 0:17:01now. Our farmers cannot plan or ensure the claps they know will be
0:17:01 > 0:17:07harvested. This is an industry in turmoil. The migrant advisory
0:17:07 > 0:17:11committee is preparing a report which will be published in the
0:17:11 > 0:17:17autumn. I contributed to this report following consultation with the
0:17:17 > 0:17:21farmers in my constituency. Stressing the situation in Angus and
0:17:21 > 0:17:24uncertain members present today also added the voices of their own
0:17:24 > 0:17:29constituents. While we do not know the findings of this developing
0:17:29 > 0:17:32report the NEC has been vocal about the necessity of retaining seasonal
0:17:32 > 0:17:42workers in the past. The committee acknowledged the likely events that
0:17:42 > 0:17:47would take place and growers were in general agreement that at least the
0:17:47 > 0:17:50short-term they will find the required supply of seasonal labour
0:17:50 > 0:17:54from Bulgaria remain you. However based on the experience following
0:17:54 > 0:17:59the EU accession of European countries in 2004 growers expressed
0:17:59 > 0:18:06concerns they would find it ethical to recruit workers from Bulgaria and
0:18:06 > 0:18:17Rumania who will likely seek employment in other sectors.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22Farmers were concerned that without the scheme workers would be less
0:18:22 > 0:18:26flexible and reliable. The introduction of a new scheme similar
0:18:26 > 0:18:30to that which was abandoned is the only option. It's imperative we
0:18:30 > 0:18:34create a system that makes the process of coming to work in the UK
0:18:34 > 0:18:39are simple and attractive as possible. So migrant workers have
0:18:39 > 0:18:46the ability to start of dressing potatoes and finish in a tunnel. We
0:18:46 > 0:18:55need a system which enables them to work wherever the man this.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58Countless countries across Europe are having to turn to alternative
0:18:58 > 0:19:03means to secure new Labour sources. Spain is dependent on Labour from
0:19:03 > 0:19:06the north of Africa. Italy has recruited largely missed from
0:19:06 > 0:19:13Bangladesh. We are competing directly with these countries and if
0:19:13 > 0:19:17we don't ensure British farms say the most appealing prospect foreign
0:19:17 > 0:19:23workers will go elsewhere. As I close my opening remarks please
0:19:23 > 0:19:31allow me to say again how much I appreciate all your presence here
0:19:31 > 0:19:39today. There is a need for us to the -- make progress during this debate.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42Since 2013 there have been calls for a seasonal agricultural workers
0:19:42 > 0:19:46scheme and with every year that has passed the situation has become more
0:19:46 > 0:19:52strained. It's an area where we have seen tremendous success in recent
0:19:52 > 0:19:59years. Our standing internationally is impeccable. I am proud of the
0:19:59 > 0:20:06produce we grow across Angus and our UK. I want to ensure our high
0:20:06 > 0:20:09quality product will dominate the shop shelves. We must safeguard this
0:20:09 > 0:20:18industry and I hope this debate will help guarantee this protection.The
0:20:18 > 0:20:27question is as on the order paper.I am delighted to make a very short
0:20:27 > 0:20:41contribution. I just want to make a couple of observations. In terms of
0:20:41 > 0:20:46why I did not intervene and she made a very valuable case and I entirely
0:20:46 > 0:20:52agree with her. I don't know why this hasn't yet happened. We have
0:20:52 > 0:20:59had debates both in November of 2016 and on the back of the select
0:20:59 > 0:21:07committee report in July last year saying categorically there was a
0:21:07 > 0:21:11need for the scheme to be reintroduced in some form. We know
0:21:11 > 0:21:16last year somewhere between ten and 15% of the fruit vegetables that was
0:21:16 > 0:21:21ploughed back into the crowd because of the lack of available labour.
0:21:21 > 0:21:27There are reasons why some Labour may not want to come which is also
0:21:27 > 0:21:32to do with the change in the value of the pound. But they didn't come
0:21:32 > 0:21:35because there was little encouragement for them to come. This
0:21:35 > 0:21:44scheme is all about trying to make sure there is sufficient labour from
0:21:44 > 0:21:48abroad who have come traditionally, this is not recent, it has happened
0:21:48 > 0:21:52for decades, but it been more important recently because we
0:21:52 > 0:21:57haven't got enough of our own domestic labour. People talk about
0:21:57 > 0:22:01technology has been one of the answers but unfortunately technology
0:22:01 > 0:22:12can't yet pick strawberries. Not without bruising them. So my first
0:22:12 > 0:22:15point is I don't understand why it's taken so long. Either DEFRA have not
0:22:15 > 0:22:32made strong enough representations. When it comes to delivery on a
0:22:32 > 0:22:39fairly basic part of the DEFRA responsibility, well we haven't seen
0:22:39 > 0:22:46any real action. This is a pretty important issue for the farming
0:22:46 > 0:22:53community. I know that because I have lobbied regularly by the NFU
0:22:53 > 0:22:56and other parts of the farming industry to be told this is maybe
0:22:56 > 0:23:03not their top concern that it's one of their major concerns.
0:23:03 > 0:23:08The first point is why has it not happened? Is it that the Secretary
0:23:08 > 0:23:12of State hasn't been able to make efficient representation or is it at
0:23:12 > 0:23:19the moment the Home Office seems to want to block any attempt to allow
0:23:19 > 0:23:23people in to this country to get the numbers down, even when they are
0:23:23 > 0:23:26desperately needed, as they are in this sector. As the honourable lady
0:23:26 > 0:23:33said very well. My second point is, and my concluding point, is that we
0:23:33 > 0:23:41need to recognise that the whole of the rural community feels that they
0:23:41 > 0:23:45are not being listened to when it comes to an issue such as this.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49Given the way in which they have tried to make this representation is
0:23:49 > 0:23:57over time and in a detailed and comprehensive and thoughtful manner.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00She quoted all of the figures, I will not in any way try to
0:24:00 > 0:24:08reproduce. But my understanding here is that unless we get those numbers,
0:24:08 > 0:24:13then businesses will go out of business. Fruit and vegetables will
0:24:13 > 0:24:19not be picked and indeed, it is unjust, dare I say, that part of the
0:24:19 > 0:24:25agricultural industry. The dairy industry has regularly employed
0:24:25 > 0:24:28people who need to come from abroad because of the nature of the
0:24:28 > 0:24:32experiences that they get, the English they will learn, and indeed
0:24:32 > 0:24:36the way in which we have looked after them generation early. Again
0:24:36 > 0:24:41there is a second underlying point about this, rural versus the
0:24:41 > 0:24:46European economy. I make no bones in representing the rural community in
0:24:46 > 0:24:54this constituency. I still think that it is important that we get
0:24:54 > 0:25:00that point of view across. It is only two important that we make sure
0:25:00 > 0:25:08our industry, the farming industry, is able to have a very strong voice
0:25:08 > 0:25:15which means we get action. Between Defra being unable to deliver this
0:25:15 > 0:25:18and the Royal community feeling isolated and unable to deliver on
0:25:18 > 0:25:23one of its key demands, we need assurance from the Home Office today
0:25:23 > 0:25:28that they will move this forward -- rural community. It is too late this
0:25:28 > 0:25:34year. There I say it, the harvest is well underway in the sense that it
0:25:34 > 0:25:40has been planted and maybe we can believe that somebody somewhere is
0:25:40 > 0:25:45going to pick their spurt I am not being funny, who is going to want to
0:25:45 > 0:25:49change the whole of their life experience by suddenly thinking,
0:25:49 > 0:25:54come May, June, July, I will go to Britain! People make plans. They
0:25:54 > 0:26:02make plans months months in advance and yet all they have been given is
0:26:02 > 0:26:07no assurance whatsoever that there is a scheme they can get a Visa for,
0:26:07 > 0:26:12no experience whatsoever that they are being, dare I say, welcomed in
0:26:12 > 0:26:15this country because there is an underlying view now that they are
0:26:15 > 0:26:21either not needed or, if they are needed, they are needed in much
0:26:21 > 0:26:26lesser numbers than they used to be. I do ask the Home Office, please can
0:26:26 > 0:26:31we have a scheme back in place? Hopefully it is a scheme that will
0:26:31 > 0:26:37do what the old scheme used to do, which was very efficient. I do not
0:26:37 > 0:26:42know where was removed. It was not while I was in this house. I was not
0:26:42 > 0:26:48part of any decision but we are now seeing that, dare I say, there are
0:26:48 > 0:26:55catastrophic consequences. Surely it is a tragedy, when food is wasted
0:26:55 > 0:26:59because you cannot pick it? So we need an answer today. We need a
0:26:59 > 0:27:04scheme, if not for this year, we certainly need one for next year.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08Maybe people will reconsider what they are going to do and still come
0:27:08 > 0:27:15to this country. But, I do pre-that the Home Office, with death
0:27:18 > 0:27:22-- with Defra, can get their act together and get the scheme in
0:27:22 > 0:27:26place. It is desperately needed. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, it
0:27:26 > 0:27:30is a pleasure to follow the honourable member for Stroud and I
0:27:30 > 0:27:32would like to congratulate the honourable member finders for
0:27:32 > 0:27:37securing the debate and putting the case for farmers in Angus forward so
0:27:37 > 0:27:41passionately. In my constituency of Chichester we are home to a fresh
0:27:41 > 0:27:45food industry that has an annual turnover in excess of £1 billion.
0:27:45 > 0:27:51And 9000 full-time employees. This industry has thrived for several
0:27:51 > 0:27:54reasons. Not least because apparently we are the brightest part
0:27:54 > 0:27:59of the UK. With our sunny climate and coastal proximity, which
0:27:59 > 0:28:03magnifies brightness by up to 10%. It makes Chichester a great place to
0:28:03 > 0:28:07grow fruit and vegetables. The growers in my area can only continue
0:28:07 > 0:28:13to grow, in every sense of the word, if they have the workforce to
0:28:13 > 0:28:18harvest their crops. According to the chairman of the West Sussex
0:28:18 > 0:28:22growers Association, the impact of Brexit or the EU referendum are
0:28:22 > 0:28:26already having an effect. Investment locally has been held back by many
0:28:26 > 0:28:31growers, as they await the outcome of the negotiations. I'm aware that
0:28:31 > 0:28:35some of their costs of raw materials have increased by up to 20%, due to
0:28:35 > 0:28:40the falling value of the pound on the international market. On the
0:28:40 > 0:28:44flip side, our currency devaluation has made home-grown crops more
0:28:44 > 0:28:48competitive, so for some sales are up. Seasonal migrant labour within
0:28:48 > 0:28:52the growing industry has been part of its history since the post-war
0:28:52 > 0:28:58period. The work they do is often physically exerting, repetitive, but
0:28:58 > 0:29:01skilled. I can personally attest to this as I have had the opportunity
0:29:01 > 0:29:09to pick peppers, where they supply 50% of all UK peppers that are sold
0:29:09 > 0:29:15in supermarkets nationwide. Many growers are struggling to maintain
0:29:15 > 0:29:20levels of Labour needed. The NFU industry survey identified a
0:29:20 > 0:29:26shortage of 13% across the 20 17th season, peaking in September at 29%.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30One fifth of businesses said last year had been the hardest
0:29:30 > 0:29:34recruitment year compared to a previous years. Furthermore, growers
0:29:34 > 0:29:38in my area claim that recruiting more skilled employees, who are
0:29:38 > 0:29:42fluent in English, has recently been much harder. They have attributed
0:29:42 > 0:29:46this to the lower value of the pound, meaning seasonal workers can
0:29:46 > 0:29:52earn just as much, or more, in other European countries. And we are
0:29:52 > 0:29:58competing for that talent. As a consequence, 73% of UK industry
0:29:58 > 0:30:00employers are taking steps to encourage seasonal recruitment with
0:30:00 > 0:30:08wages are up by 9% in 2017 over the previous year. The rural industries
0:30:08 > 0:30:12have generally made efficiencies and increase productivity by using
0:30:12 > 0:30:18advanced robotics to move rows and rows of hops through giant glass
0:30:18 > 0:30:23houses to packaging. As an industry, the utilisation of technology is
0:30:23 > 0:30:27key. Growers and farmers in my area have invested heavily but there are
0:30:27 > 0:30:30still points where people are needed, most commonly during the
0:30:30 > 0:30:37picking stage. In Chichester, the industry is keen to upscale and
0:30:37 > 0:30:41train their employees and they have begun to impairment training schemes
0:30:41 > 0:30:43like the apprentice ship level. In the coming weeks, several growers
0:30:43 > 0:30:49are meeting with colleges to see how they can collaborate on
0:30:49 > 0:30:55apprenticeship schemes using the levy and home-grown resources. On my
0:30:55 > 0:31:00visit to Tangmere, I met a former worker from Poland who now runs the
0:31:00 > 0:31:04whole of the operation. Like in any industry, hard work and talent is
0:31:04 > 0:31:11with promotion. For example, Paul Hunter, a local producer of soft
0:31:11 > 0:31:13fruits in my constituency, has an entire management team from
0:31:13 > 0:31:18Bulgaria. Since the referendum, immigration control has been
0:31:18 > 0:31:22discussed by people in the industry at length. Due to the short-term
0:31:22 > 0:31:27nature and skill level of the majority of the work, we need to
0:31:27 > 0:31:31create a migration tool to ensure our rural industries are able to
0:31:31 > 0:31:35attract and recruit the people that they need. Many, including the NFU,
0:31:35 > 0:31:43are calling for the reintroduction of the scheme which could be an
0:31:43 > 0:31:47appropriate mechanism to ensure security for the sector while
0:31:47 > 0:31:50maintaining control of our immigration system. Whatever system
0:31:50 > 0:31:54we put in place, it must facilitate seasonal workers to come to this
0:31:54 > 0:31:59country to fear filled the needs of the sector. The system needs to be
0:31:59 > 0:32:04as frictionless as possible and allow for a mate application, high
0:32:04 > 0:32:10levels of automation and ensure there are few barriers as possible
0:32:10 > 0:32:14to much-needed Labour. Flexibility is required to take into account
0:32:14 > 0:32:18crops with longer harvest seasons, or for skilled workers, those who
0:32:18 > 0:32:24are offered career progression. Whilst the rural industries are
0:32:24 > 0:32:29concerned about workers as we leave the EU, they also see opportunities
0:32:29 > 0:32:33as a consequence. Many are hopeful about access to international
0:32:33 > 0:32:37markets, where we can sell quality produce. Others feel there may be
0:32:37 > 0:32:40opportunities to expand our market share domestically, as some crops
0:32:40 > 0:32:45are and are grown in the UK, like tomatoes, of which a massive 80% are
0:32:45 > 0:32:50imported. That is despite having perfect growing conditions in
0:32:50 > 0:32:55Chichester. Moving forward we must do what we can to ensure we have a
0:32:55 > 0:32:58suitable mechanism in place to support the growing industry. And
0:32:58 > 0:33:05when they have the right workforce but they need, when they are needed.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08If we get this right I'm confident the industry will continue to thrive
0:33:08 > 0:33:14in my constituency and across the UK.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22Thank you. Kerry McCarthy.Thank you, I would like to thank the
0:33:22 > 0:33:24backbench committee for agreeing on this important debate and the
0:33:24 > 0:33:30Honourable member, I thought she made an excellent speech, it could
0:33:30 > 0:33:33not have come at a more critical time for British farmers, despite
0:33:33 > 0:33:38the weather outside the summer season and the harvest season will
0:33:38 > 0:33:43be upon us before we know it. I'm glad to have been able to co-sponsor
0:33:43 > 0:33:45the application as another vice chair of the APPG for fruit and
0:33:45 > 0:33:51vegetable farmers. We have heard how important migrant labour is to the
0:33:51 > 0:33:55farming sector and that is true all year round. Not just for seasonal
0:33:55 > 0:33:59work but it is true across the supply chain. Not only in picking
0:33:59 > 0:34:03but in packaging and processing, through to the retail and
0:34:03 > 0:34:07hospitality sectors. Not only low skill jobs but highly skilled jobs.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11Food scientists, for example, and vets, I will mention them again
0:34:11 > 0:34:16later. It is important to state that seasonal workers, migrant workers,
0:34:16 > 0:34:21they have made a huge contribution to the British economy. The rhetoric
0:34:21 > 0:34:28around the Brexit campaign about being a drain on local resources was
0:34:28 > 0:34:33not matched out by the figures. They have a lower than average use of the
0:34:33 > 0:34:37NHS and they put money into the local economy. As we are hearing
0:34:37 > 0:34:43today, they will be much missed on these shores. The debate today is
0:34:43 > 0:34:45about seasonal migrant labour, which is where the most pressing problem
0:34:45 > 0:34:50is. This is not just a far-off problem that we need to deal with in
0:34:50 > 0:34:57the distant post Brexit period future. The reality is the shortage
0:34:57 > 0:35:01in seasonal workers is happening now. There are alarming reports that
0:35:01 > 0:35:05food is rotting in British farms as there is no one available to harvest
0:35:05 > 0:35:12it. In total, last year something like 4300 jobs were left unfilled. A
0:35:12 > 0:35:14farm in Scotland had to leave up to 100 tonnes of blueberries at the
0:35:14 > 0:35:19cost of half £1 million. Another farm in Kent could not find workers
0:35:19 > 0:35:24to pick 2000 tonnes of raspberries which cost than £700,000. This is
0:35:24 > 0:35:29because whilst demand for British fruit and vegetables have risen
0:35:29 > 0:35:35dramatically, demand for strawberries has grown by 107% rule.
0:35:35 > 0:35:41The ability to source migrant workers has fallen. In September
0:35:41 > 0:35:49there was a 27% shortage identified. We had at a recent meeting of the
0:35:49 > 0:35:54APPG for fruit farmers, the farming Minister attended it. We have from a
0:35:54 > 0:35:59farm in Kent, I think it was the same one, who said he lost £700,000.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03He was already incurring significant losses due to a shortage of labour
0:36:03 > 0:36:07and he was talking about moving a substantial part of his business to
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Spain. Clearly that is something we don't want to see happen. Aside the
0:36:10 > 0:36:19obvious problem with food waste, these could jeopardise their thin
0:36:19 > 0:36:23profit margins of farmers, putting their entire business is at risk.
0:36:23 > 0:36:27There is a risk of cutting the ongoing supply of quality British
0:36:27 > 0:36:32food, getting to supermarkets. As well as tarnishing the British brand
0:36:32 > 0:36:36abroad before even getting our own food out of the ground. The truth
0:36:36 > 0:36:39is, as we've heard, it is becoming far more difficult to attract
0:36:39 > 0:36:44workers. In recent years agriculture has become heavily reliant on
0:36:44 > 0:36:49workers from Eastern Europe, particularly some EU countries.
0:36:49 > 0:36:54Migrants make up about 20% of regular full-time staff in the
0:36:54 > 0:36:59agriculture sector, a vast majority from Romania and Bulgaria. Recorded
0:36:59 > 0:37:05estimates show that 90-90% of seasonal agricultural workers from
0:37:05 > 0:37:09other EU countries but as people from these countries have the right
0:37:09 > 0:37:13work and set up in the EU, they are not looking for seasonal work but
0:37:13 > 0:37:16permanent and better paid jobs in towns and cities rather than rural
0:37:16 > 0:37:20areas. Places where they can bring their families with them that have
0:37:20 > 0:37:25better schools and local opportunities for family members to
0:37:25 > 0:37:29get jobs. Places where they can make a life. We saw this with Polish
0:37:29 > 0:37:34workers. We've heard from farmers how, whereas if you go back a few
0:37:34 > 0:37:38years, perhaps 90% of their labour force would be from Poland. That has
0:37:38 > 0:37:43very much disappeared and is being replaced by newer countries, the
0:37:43 > 0:37:45Romanians and Bulgarians but now they are following the Polish
0:37:45 > 0:38:01workers into permanent jobs in towns and cities.
0:38:02 > 0:38:09It is expensive and have provided over the union has done excellent
0:38:09 > 0:38:16work highlighting some of those concerns in its From Plato To Plate
0:38:16 > 0:38:20report. We can about the role of gang masters, even human trafficking
0:38:20 > 0:38:24in the agricultural sector in this country. The Labour shortage is
0:38:24 > 0:38:29real, and immediate threat. While not being alarmist, I don't think
0:38:29 > 0:38:32other members raising these concerns are being alarmist either. The
0:38:32 > 0:38:37government urgently needs to address this. This was recognised by the
0:38:37 > 0:38:41environment rural and food affairs select committee. Last week, did an
0:38:41 > 0:38:46inquiry into Labour restraints, and published a report and took evidence
0:38:46 > 0:38:53from Home Office Minister and a letter minister as well. We
0:38:53 > 0:38:58concluded that we do not share, this is a quote, we do not share the
0:38:58 > 0:39:01confidence of the government that the sector does not have a problem.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05That was the evidence we had. We felt there was a huge degree of
0:39:05 > 0:39:09complacency coming from ministers that it would all be fine and we
0:39:09 > 0:39:14didn't need any urgent response. The report says, we do not share the
0:39:14 > 0:39:18confidence of the government that the sector doesn't have a problem.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21On the contrary evidence admitted to this inquiry suggests the current
0:39:21 > 0:39:25problem is in danger of becoming a crisis of urgent measures are not
0:39:25 > 0:39:29taken. We also had real concerns about the lack of empirical evidence
0:39:29 > 0:39:34that the government was basing its decisions on, and the statistics
0:39:34 > 0:39:40were very flawed that they were using. We sent in another
0:39:40 > 0:39:43recommendation, we are concerned that the industry has such different
0:39:43 > 0:39:48experiences to those reported by the government. In other words the
0:39:48 > 0:39:51government was not listening to experiences directly from people
0:39:51 > 0:39:56working and running businesses in the sector. To carry on the quote,
0:39:56 > 0:40:00it is apparent that statistics used by the government are not able to
0:40:00 > 0:40:04provide a proper indication of agriculture's Labour needs. These
0:40:04 > 0:40:09statistics and the utility pump monitoring supply of and demand the
0:40:09 > 0:40:13seasonal Labour must be renewed by the end of 2017 to give the sector
0:40:13 > 0:40:18confidence in the adequacy of the official data on which employment
0:40:18 > 0:40:23policies will be based after the UK leaves the EU. To say that the
0:40:23 > 0:40:27government response in October last year was weak is an understatement.
0:40:27 > 0:40:31It shows shocking complacency. It rejected the hard facts and data
0:40:31 > 0:40:36presented to the committee by the sector and failed to acknowledge
0:40:36 > 0:40:41that its own statistics were not fit for purpose in terms of seasonal
0:40:41 > 0:40:46Labour in specific sectors. The strong feeling I have had in these
0:40:46 > 0:40:50discussions both and McInnes select committee was that the ideological
0:40:50 > 0:40:55fervour Brexit among certain ministers and with that unbending
0:40:55 > 0:40:59support for curbs on freedom of movement have overridden any
0:40:59 > 0:41:02common-sense approach to the problem, the response was very much
0:41:02 > 0:41:07we voted to stop freedom of movement, that is our approach, no
0:41:07 > 0:41:13matter what evidence we have that this will harm the British economy.
0:41:13 > 0:41:18I have heard that the tourism minister, the then tourism minister,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21now in the Treasury, the honourable member for Salisbury, took a
0:41:21 > 0:41:26different approach when in the Department of culture, media and
0:41:26 > 0:41:30sport, and went in to bat for the tourism sector, saying hospitality
0:41:30 > 0:41:33absolutely needs flexibility to bring migrant workers over. That
0:41:33 > 0:41:37approach was not replicated by the farming minister. I think it's one
0:41:37 > 0:41:42reason why we are where we are now. It was welcome that the Environment
0:41:42 > 0:41:48Secretary made positive noises about introducing or reintroducing
0:41:48 > 0:41:51seasonal agricultural workers scheme in his recent speech to the NFU.
0:41:51 > 0:41:56This scheme was scrapped in 2013 because the evidence was that we
0:41:56 > 0:42:00didn't need it because we have these workers from accession countries
0:42:00 > 0:42:04like the Romanians and the Bulgarians. But as I have said, that
0:42:04 > 0:42:08is no longer the case. And it is worrying that we are only now just
0:42:08 > 0:42:12starting to talk about the possibility of reintroducing these
0:42:12 > 0:42:16when it will be far too late to get such a scheme in place the harvest
0:42:16 > 0:42:23this year. Yet I am not convinced that reintroducing seasonal
0:42:23 > 0:42:26agricultural workers scheme would solve the problem. Many people who
0:42:26 > 0:42:29would previously have done this work don't want to do it. They don't need
0:42:29 > 0:42:35to do it any more, the exchange rate, the uncertainty following the
0:42:35 > 0:42:38referendum, the feeling unwelcome, even the British weather means that
0:42:38 > 0:42:42working elsewhere in the EU is more attractive. The economic situation
0:42:42 > 0:42:47in the own countries has improved to the extent that perhaps they don't
0:42:47 > 0:42:51need to come here and certainly the poor exchange rate means the
0:42:51 > 0:42:59financial benefits of doing so and much less, being able to take any
0:42:59 > 0:43:04home, run the gap between what they would pay here and in their own
0:43:04 > 0:43:07countries is not suitable. Even in countries like Poland, we have heard
0:43:07 > 0:43:11that they can't get work as other, they are looking to Ukraine to do
0:43:11 > 0:43:16their own agricultural work. -- they can't get workers either. I just
0:43:16 > 0:43:21don't see how far we can carry this chase after cheaper Labour, looking
0:43:21 > 0:43:27ever further afield. Ager or two ago I was on a flight of Stansted to
0:43:27 > 0:43:31Moldova, full of Romanian workers clearly hopping on budget flights to
0:43:31 > 0:43:35work here and go back home at the weekend. Looking further afield,
0:43:35 > 0:43:40easyJet is not going to bring in workers from Vietnam or Cambodia the
0:43:40 > 0:43:48£30 a time. The giveaway.I wonder if she is aware that someone who is
0:43:48 > 0:43:52now a Cabinet minister suggested that the farmers should start
0:43:52 > 0:43:57preparing to bring in people from Sri Lanka. I don't know if that
0:43:57 > 0:44:04Minister agreed to pay their flights.That's the case, to what
0:44:04 > 0:44:08extent do we keep chasing this? As other countries become more
0:44:08 > 0:44:10affluent, why would they come here instead of coming to other countries
0:44:10 > 0:44:17where they could earn more?No, clearly she has studied these
0:44:17 > 0:44:23matters closely. The source scheme brought in people from all kinds of
0:44:23 > 0:44:28places, from Africa and Asia and so forth. When the scheme ended that
0:44:28 > 0:44:35opportunity for those people ended as well, does she welcome mat?I
0:44:35 > 0:44:40think we will have to look further afield. And just casting doubts on
0:44:40 > 0:44:46whether that would be enough to attract workers, even in some of the
0:44:46 > 0:44:57countries we previously recruited from, in Kenya, British companies,
0:44:57 > 0:45:03we would be able to attract workers to come to Britain for the British
0:45:03 > 0:45:09summer. When this production in the own backyard. For all the talk of
0:45:09 > 0:45:11stepping up recruitment of British workers, something the government
0:45:11 > 0:45:19focused on heavily in its response to the EFFRA report, talking about
0:45:19 > 0:45:23the role of agriculture in universities, I think it's important
0:45:23 > 0:45:27that we encourage more people to go into agriculture going to the food
0:45:27 > 0:45:30sector but these are not the type of jobs were talking about at the
0:45:30 > 0:45:35moment. And the problem with attracting British workers is that
0:45:35 > 0:45:42the areas with unemployment don't tend to be closer to areas that need
0:45:42 > 0:45:45these workers. Students are mentioned but they have other
0:45:45 > 0:45:49options and as the Honourable member said, this is tough work. We are not
0:45:49 > 0:45:59just talking about fruit picking, even if the sun is shining, we are
0:45:59 > 0:46:04talking about picking Brussels sprouts in the freezing cold, it is
0:46:04 > 0:46:14not something people do because they fancy making a bit of pocket money.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18The sector will also have difficulty in accessing skilled Labour won
0:46:18 > 0:46:27freedom of movement ends in areas filled by EU workers, 90% of
0:46:27 > 0:46:31abattoir that's come from EU countries and most have arrived in
0:46:31 > 0:46:35the last five years so they are not automatically covered by the right
0:46:35 > 0:46:42to stay here. The process is complicated, expensive and slow.
0:46:42 > 0:46:46There is no environment Minister here today but I would like to know
0:46:46 > 0:46:50and perhaps the Home Office minister can tell us to what extent the
0:46:50 > 0:46:55Environment Secretary has made a submission to the immigration
0:46:55 > 0:46:58advisory committee on the future needs of the sector as well as
0:46:58 > 0:47:05pushing the source. At board level the border secretary sees the
0:47:05 > 0:47:10solution lying in a move from, and I quote, more capital intensive
0:47:10 > 0:47:22approach. Robotic fruit harvesting is said to be five years away, that
0:47:22 > 0:47:26means five years of times going under. Even over those five years
0:47:26 > 0:47:30and will only be the largest and most profitable business that can
0:47:30 > 0:47:35afford to buy into those technologies. In areas until the
0:47:35 > 0:47:40automation is not possible, asparagus has to be picked
0:47:40 > 0:47:44individually, raspberries to delegate not to be picked by hand.
0:47:44 > 0:47:49To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is part of a broader concern
0:47:49 > 0:47:52and I would have liked the Environment Secretary to have come
0:47:52 > 0:47:55before the House this week when the agriculture command paper was
0:47:55 > 0:48:02published. I welcome most of... I've just put up a statement welcoming
0:48:02 > 0:48:06much of what is in that command paper and the whole concept of
0:48:06 > 0:48:12moving into public money for public goods. I hope he will consider
0:48:12 > 0:48:21strong case made by people in the sector for making sector more
0:48:21 > 0:48:24environmentally friendly, but we also need to look at the economic
0:48:24 > 0:48:27viability of the sector, and Labour is crucial to that. So we need
0:48:27 > 0:48:36answers from the Home Office. And we need a much stronger focus from the
0:48:36 > 0:48:42DEFRA team, not here today, and what they will do to address this crisis.
0:48:42 > 0:48:48Thank you, DEFRA. I congratulate my honourable friend, the Member for
0:48:48 > 0:48:53Angus for securing this important debate and giving us the opportunity
0:48:53 > 0:48:58to have this important and urgent conversation in the chamber. I thank
0:48:58 > 0:49:03her for all the work she is doing to campaign for seasonal workers. It is
0:49:03 > 0:49:09a pleasure to campaign with her on this. With fields in Mike Kent
0:49:09 > 0:49:16constituency currently blanketed in snow, as I'm sure is the case for
0:49:16 > 0:49:21pretty much all of us, the pleasures of summer strawberries and what
0:49:21 > 0:49:25foods seem far off. But that's not the case for our fruit and vegetable
0:49:25 > 0:49:29growers. They are already very worried that they won't have enough
0:49:29 > 0:49:36workers to harvest the crop this year. The NFU has been gathering
0:49:36 > 0:49:39extensive data on this growing problem of the workforce shortage.
0:49:39 > 0:49:48And for example in May last year there was a national shortage of
0:49:48 > 0:49:529000 workers, late in the year 60% of Apple and pear growers said they
0:49:52 > 0:49:56were short of Labour for the harvest. We know that last it was
0:49:56 > 0:50:01difficult. This year will be harder and as for further into the future,
0:50:01 > 0:50:09farmers are very worried. This uncertainty has consequences. It
0:50:09 > 0:50:13takes between three and six years to grow a productive fruit tree. We
0:50:13 > 0:50:19know that farmers are putting off investment decisions because of
0:50:19 > 0:50:26their fears of future access to Labour. 31% of top food growers say
0:50:26 > 0:50:28the uncertainty about stuff has made them change their investment plans.
0:50:28 > 0:50:35So some are reducing investment, some are scaling down their
0:50:35 > 0:50:39businesses, some say they will chop down and scrub up their orchards.
0:50:39 > 0:50:45And this is particularly sad in worrying in the context of the last
0:50:45 > 0:50:53couple of decades which have been a great British success story for
0:50:53 > 0:50:56fruit and vegetable growing, this has been a great area of growth for
0:50:56 > 0:51:02our economy, for example home-grown berry production has increased by
0:51:02 > 0:51:09over 100% in the last 30 years and strawberries have gone from being a
0:51:09 > 0:51:17luxury which a family might occasionally I for special events to
0:51:17 > 0:51:20being something which is now a common part of a family's weekly
0:51:20 > 0:51:29shop in the summer. And frequently British berries are being bought.
0:51:29 > 0:51:34The UK production of fruit and vegetables is a great success story
0:51:34 > 0:51:38and a growing industry that we should be supporting. But, unless we
0:51:38 > 0:51:45fix this Labour shortage, prices will go up. Fewer people will be
0:51:45 > 0:51:50able to afford British fruit and vegetables. That growth may well
0:51:50 > 0:51:58reverse, and we will see a share of the fruit and vegetables that we
0:51:58 > 0:52:04currently consume, British produce, replaced by imports. And as the
0:52:04 > 0:52:08honourable member for Bristol East said moments ago, a farmer in my
0:52:08 > 0:52:12constituency is not alone amongst many in shifting production overseas
0:52:12 > 0:52:20because of the shortage of workers here. Madam Deputy Speaker, Labour
0:52:20 > 0:52:24shortages are not just a problem in Britain, as other members have said
0:52:24 > 0:52:29this afternoon, the whole of the European Union is struggling to
0:52:29 > 0:52:33recruit their workforce for picking fruit and vegetables. Germany,
0:52:33 > 0:52:39Holland, Spain, Portugal and Poland already have permit schemes that
0:52:39 > 0:52:45enable them to recruit workers from beyond the EU.
0:52:46 > 0:52:50In the UK if we were to introduce our own seasonal workers scheme that
0:52:50 > 0:52:53allows our growers to compete on a level playing field with their
0:52:53 > 0:52:59foreign competitors. Now, I appreciate, I have had it said to me
0:52:59 > 0:53:02many times since I have been a member of Parliament for a Kent
0:53:02 > 0:53:06constituency will be grey lot of fruit, that this is a common topic
0:53:06 > 0:53:10of conversation. I have often heard people say, why can't British people
0:53:10 > 0:53:17do the work? In the past we had a lot of people coming out of London
0:53:17 > 0:53:21to pick fruit in the holidays. I have constituency tell me they first
0:53:21 > 0:53:25came to Kent from the East End of London to pick fruit when they were
0:53:25 > 0:53:31children, along with the hops or the students in the workforce for doing
0:53:31 > 0:53:35this. I have spoken to growers in my constituency about this. They too
0:53:35 > 0:53:41would like to recruit British workers, local workers, to pick and
0:53:41 > 0:53:44pack for fruit and they have tried to do so and they have advertised
0:53:44 > 0:53:54locally. Some of them have sometimes managed to recruit locally but the
0:53:54 > 0:53:58local workforce does not supply the labour that they need. Part of the
0:53:58 > 0:54:02problem, this is a good thing, is that we have very low unemployment.
0:54:02 > 0:54:07In my constituency there are about 700 people currently claiming
0:54:07 > 0:54:13jobseeker's allowance but in the season, farmers in my constituency
0:54:13 > 0:54:19require a seasonal workforce of 5-10,000 workers. On one farm, it
0:54:19 > 0:54:26employs 1000 seasonal workers. Those 700 people in my constituency cannot
0:54:26 > 0:54:37plug the gap.I represent a constituency which produces about
0:54:37 > 0:54:4030% of fresh produce in the country with a big demand for seasonal
0:54:40 > 0:54:45labour, as it always has done, for a very long time. Would she concede
0:54:45 > 0:54:51that the ready supply of relatively inexpensive labour displaces
0:54:51 > 0:54:55investment in recruitment and skills and displaces investment in
0:54:55 > 0:54:58technology and automation. That is the macroeconomic evidence from
0:54:58 > 0:55:03around the world as well as in this country. And the Maxima right
0:55:03 > 0:55:07honourable friend makes an important point, that when employees have
0:55:07 > 0:55:13access to a ready supply of relatively cheap labour, then they
0:55:13 > 0:55:19may choose to supply that workforce can be used that workforce, rather
0:55:19 > 0:55:23than invest in technology. We do know that there are particular
0:55:23 > 0:55:26challenges, for instance with the automated picking of soft fruit. I
0:55:26 > 0:55:32will come to that in a moment. Although we would like to see more
0:55:32 > 0:55:37automation, it isn't something that will be achieved overnight. We need
0:55:37 > 0:55:41a near-term solution to the media labour problem hand-in-hand with
0:55:41 > 0:55:44investment in the technology which can help us to shift to a less
0:55:44 > 0:55:50labour-intensive industry.I'm grateful to the noble friend for
0:55:50 > 0:55:57giving way. Will she join me in making some really valuable points,
0:55:57 > 0:56:00with migrant workers helping constituency workers but also work
0:56:00 > 0:56:04with me and others to put pressure on the government to make sure we
0:56:04 > 0:56:07are championing our agricultural industries and increasing their
0:56:07 > 0:56:11prestige and the jobs they create, so they become viable options for
0:56:11 > 0:56:15young people and really show young farmers the great contribution they
0:56:15 > 0:56:21are making in constituencies like mine and the honourable lady's?I
0:56:21 > 0:56:27agree that they should be championing agricultural industries
0:56:27 > 0:56:31and enabling more young people to go into agriculture. There is a
0:56:31 > 0:56:35challenge for farmers recruiting for all kinds of jobs where they would
0:56:35 > 0:56:37hope to recruit skilled British Labour Burt Young people are not
0:56:37 > 0:56:43going into the sector. Absolutely, we should encourage that -- but
0:56:43 > 0:56:49young people. And then that which you also agree with me, that while
0:56:49 > 0:56:52we all support greater investment in technology within the agricultural
0:56:52 > 0:57:00sector, if you take hillsides in South Devon, you will never have a
0:57:00 > 0:57:01technological solution for harvesting in those kinds of
0:57:01 > 0:57:07conditions.I thank my honourable friend for the point. I am wary to
0:57:07 > 0:57:11say never but something for sure is that with certain landscapes or
0:57:11 > 0:57:20certain produce, it is very difficult to do an entirely
0:57:20 > 0:57:25automated production chain. It simply is not possible, or it is a
0:57:25 > 0:57:30very long way off. In the process of getting them, we should make sure we
0:57:30 > 0:57:34do not destroy industry so that if we do not manage to stay in the
0:57:34 > 0:57:38industry now we will not have the opportunity to all sorts of
0:57:38 > 0:57:48wonderful fruit production in future. The final part in who as we
0:57:48 > 0:57:51can employ, it has already been said this afternoon, one thing that has
0:57:51 > 0:57:56changed is the duration of the season, and thanks to poly tunnels
0:57:56 > 0:58:00we have a longer fruit growing season which is far longer than
0:58:00 > 0:58:09student holidays, with the expectations of the consumer and the
0:58:09 > 0:58:12supermarkets, and the requirement for certain level intensities, and
0:58:12 > 0:58:17consistency in production, it means that having a casual student
0:58:17 > 0:58:20workforce to do this simply is not the right answer for modelling
0:58:20 > 0:58:27production. I would also say that, long-term, recruiting people from
0:58:27 > 0:58:33further and further afield is probably not the answer either. And
0:58:33 > 0:58:38it probably will not make sense to fly people from the other side of
0:58:38 > 0:58:43the world to come and pick fruit indefinitely. As I said, I think
0:58:43 > 0:58:48automation will gradually replace manual labour more and more and in
0:58:48 > 0:58:52parts of the production line, it already is. There are large amounts
0:58:52 > 0:58:56of automation in the production line and particularly for vegetables
0:58:56 > 0:59:02rather than soft fruit. Growers to tell us that the robotic picking of
0:59:02 > 0:59:07soft fruit is a long way off. A robot has been developed but it is
0:59:07 > 0:59:10very slow and it will be able to do it at remotely degrade or cost
0:59:10 > 0:59:18effectiveness that is expected by supermarkets and consumers. Fruit is
0:59:18 > 0:59:22very different from when you are manufacturing a product where you
0:59:22 > 0:59:28have a consistent part that needs to be put up to the thing. Every bit of
0:59:28 > 0:59:33soft fruit is different. It requires a huge amount of sophistication from
0:59:33 > 0:59:37the vision system and artificial intelligence. I do think it is out
0:59:37 > 0:59:46there but we are some way off.
0:59:49 > 0:59:56There is a recognition of the need for investment in research and
0:59:56 > 1:00:00development to improve productivity. There is also an industrial strategy
1:00:00 > 1:00:04challenge fund to support this area. I would urge the government to do
1:00:04 > 1:00:07even more to consider how to incentivise automation in the
1:00:07 > 1:00:14horticulture industry. To be clear, the benefits of that automation are
1:00:14 > 1:00:17particularly for the future. We have to deal with the immediate problem
1:00:17 > 1:00:21farmers have with their ability to harvest fruit this year and in the
1:00:21 > 1:00:27next few years.She's right, of course, we will continue to have a
1:00:27 > 1:00:33demand for Labour. It is not static for the reason she has just given.
1:00:33 > 1:00:36In Lincolnshire colleagues are working with the university in
1:00:36 > 1:00:40Lincoln to look at the masses she has described. I invite my
1:00:40 > 1:00:44colleagues to do so with their own local universities. There is real
1:00:44 > 1:00:48progress to be made in looking at where greater productivity can stem
1:00:48 > 1:00:51from greater automation and technology as well as the investment
1:00:51 > 1:00:56in skills that I mentioned earlier. I indeed agree with my right
1:00:56 > 1:01:04honourable friend. Just to talk briefly about the health dimension
1:01:04 > 1:01:07of this debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. There have been headlines
1:01:07 > 1:01:12only this week that more than seven in every ten people born between the
1:01:12 > 1:01:16early 1980s and the mid-19 90s will be overweight by the time they reach
1:01:16 > 1:01:22middle age. That is seven in ten. We know that one in five children are
1:01:22 > 1:01:26obese by the time they leave primary school, and one part of tackling the
1:01:26 > 1:01:30obesity crisis we face in society is to encourage people to eat more
1:01:30 > 1:01:38healthily. On average, our fruit and veg consumption needs to increase by
1:01:38 > 1:01:4264% to be in line with the government's dietary guidelines and
1:01:42 > 1:01:45one of the biggest factors influencing people's food choices is
1:01:45 > 1:01:49price. The price of fruit and vegetables has already been going
1:01:49 > 1:01:56up. On average prices of the most popular vegetables rose by 3.2% last
1:01:56 > 1:02:00year. Fruit prices rose by 7.2%, compared to overall inflation of
1:02:00 > 1:02:072.7%. Just the other day I happened to be talking to a couple of mothers
1:02:07 > 1:02:11who told me how they are shopping around to get the best value fruit
1:02:11 > 1:02:18and veg. Choosing, for instance, a shop which sells carrots at 39p per
1:02:18 > 1:02:22bag, including the funny shaped ones, because that was the sort of
1:02:22 > 1:02:26value they wanted in order to be able to give their children a
1:02:26 > 1:02:31healthy diet. But they are worried that the rate of increase in the
1:02:31 > 1:02:35prices of fruit and vegetables. They are worried if they will be able to
1:02:35 > 1:02:38continue to afford fresh fruit and vegetables for their families if the
1:02:38 > 1:02:43prices of fruit and veg continue to go up. I will happily give way. Webb
1:02:43 > 1:02:48thank you for giving way. I would say that fruit and veg is seasonal
1:02:48 > 1:02:51and the price of it is seasonal and about availability and supply and
1:02:51 > 1:03:00demand. It was interesting you chose carrots. I own a current factory and
1:03:00 > 1:03:07it is in my registered interests! -- current factory. The lifting is
1:03:07 > 1:03:11mechanised and the washing and selection, but the price of carrots
1:03:11 > 1:03:15and vegetables has never been so low. We are in a very competitive
1:03:15 > 1:03:24industry. Warren I will defer to my honourable friend's expertise on
1:03:24 > 1:03:27carrots.The reason I gave carrots as an example was because it was
1:03:27 > 1:03:32mentioned by these two mothers. The point that I was making is how price
1:03:32 > 1:03:36sensitive they are. I have heard people say that fruit and veg is
1:03:36 > 1:03:45really cheap, and that is not a factor in people's shopping choices.
1:03:45 > 1:03:52This was to illustrate that actually took the Krakow shoppers look
1:03:52 > 1:03:56carefully at specific prices of fruit and vegetables. As prices are
1:03:56 > 1:04:02going up, and on average as I mentioned for fruit that has gone up
1:04:02 > 1:04:07by 7.2%, that kind of rises going to affect people's choices and their
1:04:07 > 1:04:14ability to purchase fresh fruit and vegetables for their families. A
1:04:14 > 1:04:18problem that I particularly wanted to make, with labour shortage is
1:04:18 > 1:04:21happening now and on the horizon, I am worried that will only push up
1:04:21 > 1:04:27the price of fruit and vegetables further. A seasonal workers scheme
1:04:27 > 1:04:36would help British growers keep producing affordable fruit and
1:04:36 > 1:04:39vegetables. But while on the subject, I do think the new
1:04:39 > 1:04:43agricultural policy is an opportunity to go further and it is
1:04:43 > 1:04:51an opportunity for us as a country to try and look further to look at
1:04:51 > 1:04:54the production and consumption of fruit and vegetables, and look at
1:04:54 > 1:04:58how we can support growers more. Looking the whole way along the
1:04:58 > 1:05:03supply chain, at how we can reward retailers, also for selling healthy
1:05:03 > 1:05:09food and overall, what we can do to our cultural policy -- agricultural
1:05:09 > 1:05:13policy to enable consumers to buy healthy fruit and vegetables so the
1:05:13 > 1:05:17British people can eat a healthier diet. We have a golden opportunity
1:05:17 > 1:05:22right now to do that, as we rethink the agricultural policy. But none of
1:05:22 > 1:05:28that would be possible without a workforce to pick and pack the
1:05:28 > 1:05:33produce that we grow. Madam Deputy Speaker, I once again urge the
1:05:33 > 1:05:37government to introduce a seasonal agricultural workers scheme, to not
1:05:37 > 1:05:42make our growers keep on waiting, to put an end to this uncertainty and
1:05:42 > 1:05:50get on with it.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I say first of
1:05:50 > 1:05:56all it is a pleasure to follow the honourable member for Faversham and
1:05:56 > 1:06:00Mid Kent. I suspect we know some of the same farmers and they were quite
1:06:00 > 1:06:04comp entry about how she represents them on this issue. I would say that
1:06:04 > 1:06:10I hope she rediscovers her inner Remainer and join us in a campaign
1:06:10 > 1:06:15to stay in the European Union -- complimentary. Farmers I have spoken
1:06:15 > 1:06:19too would like us to do exactly that. I would like to congratulate
1:06:19 > 1:06:23the honourable member for Angus in securing the debate. She and others
1:06:23 > 1:06:27have given us an opportunity to reminisce on Strobl picking and Ross
1:06:27 > 1:06:30Perot picking of our youth. I would like to reminisce on mine, which
1:06:30 > 1:06:34took place in France when I picked strawberries for 50 hours a week at
1:06:34 > 1:06:40ten francs an hour. After my first day of straw brew picking, I was
1:06:40 > 1:06:43sick as well. I dreamt of picking strawberries throughout the rest of
1:06:43 > 1:06:49the month because that is what I was doing and I can also confirm that
1:06:49 > 1:06:52the explosive capacity of the Rasberry is much greater than that
1:06:52 > 1:06:56of a strawberry and on impact, a Rosebery makes a bigger stain than a
1:06:56 > 1:07:06strawberry! But I welcome the fact that she is secure in this debate.
1:07:06 > 1:07:10And with the knowledge that I have through family that have farmers in
1:07:10 > 1:07:14Kent. What they have seen is that already there has been a significant
1:07:14 > 1:07:18downturn in the number of workers coming from places like Bulgaria or
1:07:18 > 1:07:26Romania and that is happening for a number of reasons. Because The value
1:07:26 > 1:07:31of the pound has reduced, and it has also happened as a result of their
1:07:31 > 1:07:34own economy is growing strongly and I would argue strongly as a result
1:07:34 > 1:07:39of their membership or in part as a result of their membership of the
1:07:39 > 1:07:42EU. Whilst in this house occasionally people are reluctant to
1:07:42 > 1:07:47talk of the benefits of the EU, I would say in relation to the
1:07:47 > 1:07:52economies of Bulgaria and Romania, I suspect they have played a
1:07:52 > 1:07:59significant part in that and as they have, in growing economies, I feel
1:07:59 > 1:08:03concerned that the UK, in the process of Brighton, is making it
1:08:03 > 1:08:09harder for us to export to the very markets that we have helped to
1:08:09 > 1:08:12create three supporting those countries membership of the European
1:08:12 > 1:08:15Union. What they are finding in terms of the workers coming now is
1:08:15 > 1:08:20that they are older, and they are less well educated. It is no longer
1:08:20 > 1:08:25students who are coming, it is an older section of the population who
1:08:25 > 1:08:29often do not speak English in the way that students who used to come
1:08:29 > 1:08:32did and often no students were coming partly because they wanted to
1:08:32 > 1:08:36practice their English, they wanted to earn some money but also they are
1:08:36 > 1:08:40looking at whether the UK was a country where they wanted to stay on
1:08:40 > 1:08:44longer term, clearly that is not something which is of less interest
1:08:44 > 1:08:51to them because of the perception and more of the United Kingdom since
1:08:51 > 1:08:57the vote on the 27th of June 20 16.
1:08:57 > 1:09:01As several members have already highlighted, don't expect these
1:09:01 > 1:09:07people to be replaced by UK workers. The honourable member for Faversham
1:09:07 > 1:09:10referred to the 700,000 people on jobseeker's allowance in her
1:09:10 > 1:09:17constituency and between 5000 and 10,000 people who come to work on a
1:09:17 > 1:09:23seasonal basis in the farmers and the surrounding area, if they were
1:09:23 > 1:09:30working there would not replace the 5000 to 10,000 to work in Kent.
1:09:30 > 1:09:34Given that, as we heard, the honourable member for Angus
1:09:34 > 1:09:38confirmed that the picking season can last up to ten months, it is a
1:09:38 > 1:09:42substantial period of time that those workers are needed. One farmer
1:09:42 > 1:09:48I spoke to said that yes, he had always sought British workers to
1:09:48 > 1:09:55come and work in his farm, and in six workers he had one who applied
1:09:55 > 1:10:04and lasted two and a half weeks. We're not going to find in the UK
1:10:04 > 1:10:07jobs market people replacing all the people working in a seasonal
1:10:07 > 1:10:15capacity at the moment. Where do they see the workers coming from?
1:10:15 > 1:10:19Clearly as countries like Bulgaria and Romania are getting stronger as
1:10:19 > 1:10:24they have alternative is now in terms of Spain and Germany being
1:10:24 > 1:10:29more attractive perhaps because of the fall in the value of a pound, we
1:10:29 > 1:10:33need to look further afield. I don't agree that we need to look as far
1:10:33 > 1:10:40afield as Sri Lanka because the cost, the farmer I spoke to reckoned
1:10:40 > 1:10:45that the additional cost might be three times the cost of bringing
1:10:45 > 1:10:49someone from Ukraine, a cost that the farmer will bear which makes our
1:10:49 > 1:10:53industry less competitive. Which is what is happening as a result of the
1:10:53 > 1:11:00profile of the workers being older and less productive. This adds to
1:11:00 > 1:11:08costs which will also lead to an increase in food prices as a result
1:11:08 > 1:11:15of a less productive workforce. The old SAWS scheme did allow workers
1:11:15 > 1:11:26from Ukraine to come, 40 million Ukrainians are waiting for the
1:11:26 > 1:11:31market to be open to them, the Moldovans and the Russians. All
1:11:31 > 1:11:35members familiar with the scheme were no that scheme was ready
1:11:35 > 1:11:42tightly controlled scheme, it was not scheme where people came to the
1:11:42 > 1:11:46UK, worked and then disappeared into the jobs market. They came here,
1:11:46 > 1:11:51they worked hard, they earned money and then went home. So there wasn't
1:11:51 > 1:11:59an issue with people disappearing and working and officially. That is
1:11:59 > 1:12:04what they are calling for, I believe that what has happened in Poland is
1:12:04 > 1:12:09that Poland is now providing visas to Ukrainians so Poland is
1:12:09 > 1:12:15benefiting from an influx of Ukrainians and is making their
1:12:15 > 1:12:25agricultural sector much more productive. They are earning the
1:12:25 > 1:12:30princely sum of £20 a day working in Poland, not something we would want
1:12:30 > 1:12:33to replicate here but it just demonstrates that they are accessing
1:12:33 > 1:12:37those workers and it is contributing to their agriculture whilst ours is
1:12:37 > 1:12:44suffering. Now in the south at least, in Kent, the Member for
1:12:44 > 1:12:50Faversham and Mid Kent did highlight some cases where produce had not
1:12:50 > 1:12:53been picked, but I think on the whole Kent has just about managed
1:12:53 > 1:12:57this year and this coming season is going to present the real challenge
1:12:57 > 1:13:03for them. And so any scheme needs to be up and running now, it is not a
1:13:03 > 1:13:07scheme that the new financial year, April, sometime towards the end of
1:13:07 > 1:13:11the year, that is a scheme that needs to be up and running now
1:13:11 > 1:13:15because the season is a ten month season and these people are needed
1:13:15 > 1:13:19now, not in months' time. And many members will have heard figures
1:13:19 > 1:13:28quoted by the NFU of a 12.5% shortfall in seasonal workers this
1:13:28 > 1:13:31year, and the situation is not likely to improve in the next 12
1:13:31 > 1:13:38months. Again a number of members have rightly pointed out that while
1:13:38 > 1:13:42longer term automation, perhaps, may provide part of the solution and has
1:13:42 > 1:13:46done in some industries, in relation to the agriculture sector, currently
1:13:46 > 1:13:49it cannot. So it is not a case of saying, people are using cheap
1:13:49 > 1:13:54Labour and not therefore investing in equipment, there's not the
1:13:54 > 1:13:58equipment to invest in, yet. There may be in five years' time in terms
1:13:58 > 1:14:04of apple picking and plum picking. I am happy to give way.Thank you to
1:14:04 > 1:14:15the honourable member for giving way. I own a current factory. There
1:14:15 > 1:14:20is enormous mechanisation in vegetable picking, and in top fruit
1:14:20 > 1:14:24picking, if not soft fruit picking. I would say to him that the
1:14:24 > 1:14:29availability of relatively cheap Labour did stop enormous investment
1:14:29 > 1:14:32in mechanisation and that mechanisation has come down greatly
1:14:32 > 1:14:41in price. Would he agree that some of what we are speaking about would
1:14:41 > 1:14:48encourage factories to mechanise. Agree and I am happy for his
1:14:48 > 1:14:51intervention, there has to be a balance and my understanding is,
1:14:51 > 1:14:58yes, particularly in a packing environment, you Jim and can be done
1:14:58 > 1:15:02with mechanisation but in relation to things like apple picking and
1:15:02 > 1:15:08plum picking it is not there yet. It may not be for four or five years,
1:15:08 > 1:15:17knows. There's a lot of talk about technological solutions being the
1:15:17 > 1:15:22solution to the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland or the
1:15:22 > 1:15:25border between Camden and Westminster! Yet in practice those
1:15:25 > 1:15:30blue sky solutions don't exist. Although one person suggested that
1:15:30 > 1:15:34drones might be the solution to the border between Northern Ireland and
1:15:34 > 1:15:37Ireland and maybe that is the solution to picking plums and
1:15:37 > 1:15:43doubles as well. Realistically those solutions are not there yet. What is
1:15:43 > 1:15:50the solution. Many will not be surprised that the Liberal Democrats
1:15:50 > 1:15:54will continue to campaign for vote on the deal so that if people don't
1:15:54 > 1:15:59like what they are being offered in terms of an eventual deal struck
1:15:59 > 1:16:02between the UK Government and the EU, they have a chance of pulling
1:16:02 > 1:16:09away from it and stopping Brexit. If that doesn't happen what is the
1:16:09 > 1:16:18immediate solution to the problem we have with a SAWS scheme. It is
1:16:18 > 1:16:24clearly to allow workers from EU and increasingly non-EU countries to
1:16:24 > 1:16:29come to the UK in control schemes that have worked effectively in the
1:16:29 > 1:16:33past, it will be about helping on the technological front to ensure
1:16:33 > 1:16:39that the investment does go into the areas where that can make a
1:16:39 > 1:16:43difference, it does make a seasonal scheme, I've heard senior ministers
1:16:43 > 1:16:47in the past saying we could sorted out by introducing six-month visas,
1:16:47 > 1:16:50that would be sufficient. We have heard now that the season is ten
1:16:50 > 1:16:54months long so they need to be longer than the six month proposal.
1:16:54 > 1:16:58And I think if all that can be implemented now, not at the end of
1:16:58 > 1:17:02the year, not the next season, then there is a realistic prospect that
1:17:02 > 1:17:09most of our farmers will be able to pick all their crops if this is not
1:17:09 > 1:17:12acted on now, then there is a real risk that the reports towards the
1:17:12 > 1:17:19end of this year will be about a substantially greater proportion of
1:17:19 > 1:17:28fruit and vegetables being left to rot, I was going to complete but I
1:17:28 > 1:17:33will pause and give way.Before he sits down, is it possible that our
1:17:33 > 1:17:36farmers will get through this year because freedom of movement is still
1:17:36 > 1:17:39available and there are access to eastern European migrants who
1:17:39 > 1:17:44hopefully will come to work. But next year 's rate kicks in, freedom
1:17:44 > 1:17:52of movement will end. It's about point that we need innovative
1:17:52 > 1:17:58solutions so that the crop could be picked.I agree entirely that there
1:17:58 > 1:18:03needs to be a sense of urgency about this. Although as I understand it,
1:18:03 > 1:18:08it was a U-turn by the government yesterday were having said that
1:18:08 > 1:18:13March 2019 was the cut off date, they will allow that to continue in
1:18:13 > 1:18:17the transition. So if that is correct they that might help the
1:18:17 > 1:18:22industry for a few more years. On that point DEFRA am happy to
1:18:22 > 1:18:28conclude and thank the Member for and for securing the debate.Sarah
1:18:28 > 1:18:35Wollaston.Madam Deputy Speaker and is a pleasure to follow the member.
1:18:35 > 1:18:40I would like to congratulate my honourable friend the Member for
1:18:40 > 1:18:43Angus were bringing this debate, and to all those who have spoken so
1:18:43 > 1:18:52compellingly about the absolute need for us to address this. We do not
1:18:52 > 1:18:58have the luxury of time on our side. Physically I am sure members across
1:18:58 > 1:19:01the House would like to join me in paying tribute to our farmers and
1:19:01 > 1:19:06fissures. If we think it is called here imagine what it is like on
1:19:06 > 1:19:10Dartmoor farm in now or on Abe Brixton trawler. I think we would
1:19:10 > 1:19:14all pay tribute to all of those putting food on our plates and thank
1:19:14 > 1:19:19them for what they do. I would like to particularly thank Riverford farm
1:19:19 > 1:19:22in my constituency and all the farmers who have written to me about
1:19:22 > 1:19:29this issue, and the NFU for the work they are doing to collect evidence
1:19:29 > 1:19:33of this. But one thing I would like to say is, referring to the fact
1:19:33 > 1:19:38that we don't have the luxury of time, the point has been made very
1:19:38 > 1:19:43compellingly to me by Riverford Farm, that it is this autumn that
1:19:43 > 1:19:46they have those crunch decisions to make about employing for the
1:19:46 > 1:19:51following year. There is still great uncertainty about the transition
1:19:51 > 1:19:55period and as we have heard so compellingly from members across
1:19:55 > 1:20:01this House, even if we do have a transition in place, there is here
1:20:01 > 1:20:04and no shortage of workforce and the seasonal agricultural workers scheme
1:20:04 > 1:20:09is a mechanism we could use to address that. Of course I realise
1:20:09 > 1:20:14that the government has commissioned the immigration advisory committee
1:20:14 > 1:20:20to research the impact of leaving the EU on the UK Labour market and
1:20:20 > 1:20:23how to align immigration policy with a modern industrial strategy but my
1:20:23 > 1:20:27concern is that that is not due to report into the autumn. And it will
1:20:27 > 1:20:33take time to then implement such a scheme after that. I just don't
1:20:33 > 1:20:37think we have the luxury of that time. And given that already in
1:20:37 > 1:20:40place across the EU are many nations that already supplement their
1:20:40 > 1:20:47workforce with a seasonal agricultural workers scheme. Would
1:20:47 > 1:20:50the minister in her response to this debate, would she give some hope
1:20:50 > 1:20:54that the government will make a decision on this? That the Home
1:20:54 > 1:20:58Office will decide sooner than we would expect from the current
1:20:58 > 1:21:04timetable of a report coming forward from the autumn? Because it is the
1:21:04 > 1:21:06uncertainty that is delaying investment here and now for the
1:21:06 > 1:21:13future. So we really do need to have something to take back to our
1:21:13 > 1:21:16constituents and these important businesses who after all already
1:21:16 > 1:21:21making great efforts to recruit locally but as we have heard, even
1:21:21 > 1:21:27with all those efforts and the scheme is going in to try to
1:21:27 > 1:21:30encourage and retain a UK-based workforce, they are absolutely
1:21:30 > 1:21:37dependent on having a supplemented workforce from outside the country.
1:21:37 > 1:21:43And particularly as the mother of someone who works in the robotics
1:21:43 > 1:21:47industry, I do appreciate the investment that is going into these
1:21:47 > 1:21:51technological solutions. I am afraid it simply is not going to provide
1:21:51 > 1:21:57all the answers that we need in order to make sure that our crops
1:21:57 > 1:22:01are picked in a timely manner, because there can be nothing more
1:22:01 > 1:22:05heartbreaking than seeing crops rotting in the fields as I am sure
1:22:05 > 1:22:12that the minister will reflect in her closing remarks.Thank you to
1:22:12 > 1:22:15the honourable member, thank you for giving way. I just want to reflect
1:22:15 > 1:22:18that we have heard from other members that the Labour force will
1:22:18 > 1:22:24have to come from outside the EU and outside the EEA. Is this not, as we
1:22:24 > 1:22:29leave the EU, an opportunity for policy to employ people from outside
1:22:29 > 1:22:34the EEA area and if we were not leaving, there may not be the same
1:22:34 > 1:22:40opportunity because of EU regulation.
1:22:40 > 1:22:45Is I remain of the view that we should actually be focusing also on
1:22:45 > 1:22:52the issues of frictionless trade and keeping close links to our European
1:22:52 > 1:22:57Union partners, as we exit the EU. But I think these issues will arise
1:22:57 > 1:23:01irrespective of that, as we have heard. So I do think that this is
1:23:01 > 1:23:06something that, whatever the situation with transition, I hope
1:23:06 > 1:23:09the minister will consider this as something that we could use to
1:23:09 > 1:23:13supplement the arrangements that we will have. But most of all, I would
1:23:13 > 1:23:17like the Minister to give us some indication of when we are likely to
1:23:17 > 1:23:23see a decision, because for farmers in my constituency, here and now,
1:23:23 > 1:23:26they are starting to make decisions about their future plans and
1:23:26 > 1:23:34investment that will not only impact their businesses, but remember, that
1:23:34 > 1:23:40they also employ a local workforce in many other capacities. And it
1:23:40 > 1:23:44will affect them. So I think the implications for our industry are
1:23:44 > 1:23:48very far reaching and I hope the Minister will give some indication
1:23:48 > 1:23:58of when we will see an answer.Kate Green.Thank you Madam Deputy
1:23:58 > 1:24:02Speaker, it is great to sit in the chair. Let me congratulate the
1:24:02 > 1:24:06honourable member for Angus on an excellent introduction to this
1:24:06 > 1:24:10debate and thank the business committee for making time for it.
1:24:10 > 1:24:16May I also draw the houses attention to an interest that I declare in
1:24:16 > 1:24:23relation to support I received from the good-faith partnership who work
1:24:23 > 1:24:27with me on migration issues. They have just started in the last few
1:24:27 > 1:24:30days, and I will give you details of this comment on the register later
1:24:30 > 1:24:37this week. I also speak as chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group --
1:24:37 > 1:24:44All Party Parliamentary Group. Last year, they produced a report on the
1:24:44 > 1:24:48impact specifically on small and medium-sized enterprise of the loss
1:24:48 > 1:24:56of access to labour from the European Union post Brexit. We heard
1:24:56 > 1:24:59evidence from employers and recruiters across a range of
1:24:59 > 1:25:03sectors, not just agriculture, and food processing, but clearly there
1:25:03 > 1:25:11is an important and urgent need faced by that sector. One of the
1:25:11 > 1:25:15employers that we heard from highlighted the need for access to
1:25:15 > 1:25:21skilled but also so-called unskilled Labour at times of heightened need,
1:25:21 > 1:25:26whether that was in agriculture and food processing. We also heard from
1:25:26 > 1:25:29other sectors including air conditioning and heating, central
1:25:29 > 1:25:34heating engineers. We have also heard in this debate in the
1:25:34 > 1:25:40hospitality sector, there are peaks over the summer and at Christmas.
1:25:40 > 1:25:45The point was made to us that regarding customer services or
1:25:45 > 1:25:49catering, while it is seen as unskilled jobs, they cannot be
1:25:49 > 1:25:54characterised as unskilled in terms of the nature of what needs to be
1:25:54 > 1:26:01carried out. This variety of sectors and job roles, reflecting a need for
1:26:01 > 1:26:08seasonal Labour, points to tailor-made solutions. What we have
1:26:08 > 1:26:12heard this afternoon is that should not preclude the upscaling of the
1:26:12 > 1:26:17domestic workforce and increasing participation among underemployed
1:26:17 > 1:26:22sectors of the domestic workforce, like older workers, but I do think
1:26:22 > 1:26:26that it is important, as we heard again this afternoon, that seasonal
1:26:26 > 1:26:31jobs are not always attractive to UK workers. But isn't just that they
1:26:31 > 1:26:35cannot be bothered doing them in all cases, it may be that they live in
1:26:35 > 1:26:38the wrong part of the country and have family commitments they cannot
1:26:38 > 1:26:44move to take seasonal work. Lope making it similarly unviable for UK
1:26:44 > 1:26:49workers to take some of these posts. And the arduous physical nature of
1:26:49 > 1:26:57the work, which we heard about, which means that older workers may
1:26:57 > 1:27:03struggle to take up work in those jobs too. Already, Madam Deputy
1:27:03 > 1:27:07Speaker, other sectors have been expressing alarm about the impact of
1:27:07 > 1:27:14Brexit on long-term access to Labour, as one professor has said,
1:27:14 > 1:27:18it isn't just a case of choosing which migrants come to this country
1:27:18 > 1:27:21but making sure that we get the right migrant labour that we need
1:27:21 > 1:27:26which chooses to come to us. Even as early as the beginning of last year,
1:27:26 > 1:27:36alarm bells were sounding from arrangement lawyers and recruiters.
1:27:36 > 1:27:40In the drinks business last year, hospitality and agriculture may
1:27:40 > 1:27:45struggle to find staff as Brexit negotiations got underway. Similar
1:27:45 > 1:27:50concerns were expressed by Tim Romney of the Lake District hotels
1:27:50 > 1:27:56Association in fabric 2017. As the honourable member for Chichester
1:27:56 > 1:28:00rooted out, it's important to note not just short-term labour market
1:28:00 > 1:28:04needs but long-term needs are often met by seasonal workers coming and
1:28:04 > 1:28:10staying on and progressing in industries in this country over a
1:28:10 > 1:28:15longer period. The recruitment and employment consortium reports that
1:28:15 > 1:28:20recruiters were already struggling to fill some low skilled roles
1:28:20 > 1:28:26before the 2016 referendum. They point out that increasing labour
1:28:26 > 1:28:30shortages could lead ultimately to higher costs for consumers as a
1:28:30 > 1:28:34result of higher recruitment costs, greater bureaucracy to bring in
1:28:34 > 1:28:44migrant workers, the cost of freezers recover users, the enquiry
1:28:44 > 1:28:49would be unable to absorb it and pass it on to customers. Consumers
1:28:49 > 1:28:53may also experience a knock-on effect on service levels, and for
1:28:53 > 1:29:00the workers themselves, potentially there would be an increased risk of
1:29:00 > 1:29:05exploitation and illegal working which would cause concern. The
1:29:05 > 1:29:09recruitment consortium also say, as we have heard repeatedly, that while
1:29:09 > 1:29:13automation is clearly part of the solution to our labour needs in a
1:29:13 > 1:29:17number of seasonal sectors it would only be practically and economically
1:29:17 > 1:29:21viable for some of the Labour performed by low scale seasonal
1:29:21 > 1:29:28workers. At least for the foreseeable future. That is quite
1:29:28 > 1:29:33long interim solutions which are needed in those sectors. Whatever
1:29:33 > 1:29:39immigration schemes ministers are devising, in the coming months as we
1:29:39 > 1:29:43anticipate departure from the EU, they must not be solely designed on
1:29:43 > 1:29:50the basis of EU workers currently working in full-time permanent
1:29:50 > 1:29:53positions and having to replace that form of labour in the UK. The
1:29:53 > 1:29:59evidence clearly points to a need for a range of tailored solutions.
1:29:59 > 1:30:02It may suggest, and we have heard a lot this afternoon about the
1:30:02 > 1:30:06possibility of reinstating the seasonal agricultural workers scheme
1:30:06 > 1:30:14and other sector specific solutions, the Institute for employment of
1:30:14 > 1:30:18studies has pointed out it will increase in complexity for
1:30:18 > 1:30:25employers. The focus must be on deciding simple and cost-effective
1:30:25 > 1:30:29reasonably priced application processes. Recognising that it is
1:30:29 > 1:30:33employers who will bear the costs that they will pass them on to
1:30:33 > 1:30:38customers at the end of the line. It is not possible to look at blanket
1:30:38 > 1:30:46approaches for setting a salary or skills thresholds and it is
1:30:46 > 1:30:49appropriate these processes take place at the borders to enable
1:30:49 > 1:30:54migrant workers to come in. At the same time, immigration strategy must
1:30:54 > 1:30:58pay careful attention to the impact on host communities. Local
1:30:58 > 1:31:03authorities need to be supported and encouraged to develop strategies for
1:31:03 > 1:31:06integration, even of short-term workers, to improve community
1:31:06 > 1:31:14cohesion and avoid seasonal workers facing ostracism. The government
1:31:14 > 1:31:20will absolutely rightly want to give attention to the risks of
1:31:20 > 1:31:25exploitation and did its most extreme form trafficking and abuse.
1:31:25 > 1:31:28Clearly it requires the enforcement of decent working conditions,
1:31:28 > 1:31:32minimum wages, and it requires working with employers and
1:31:32 > 1:31:38deployment bodies, and also ensuring that there are good sources of
1:31:38 > 1:31:42independent information and advice available to migrant workers. Both
1:31:42 > 1:31:49in their home countries and when they arrive here. All of these
1:31:49 > 1:31:56strategies, Madam Deputy Speaker, I emphasised in the global compact on
1:31:56 > 1:32:02migration being negotiated at the United Nations. For a holistic
1:32:02 > 1:32:05strategy in the immigration white Paper, which we anticipate in the
1:32:05 > 1:32:10next few months, and I conclude, I was saying to the minister, that it
1:32:10 > 1:32:14is important that strategy and white paper comes forward as soon as
1:32:14 > 1:32:26possible. Clarity is needed for businesses and workers alike.Madam
1:32:26 > 1:32:29Deputy Speaker, may I start by congratulating my honourable friend
1:32:29 > 1:32:34on what is an important issue for many agricultural businesses across
1:32:34 > 1:32:38the United Kingdom? She described very well the issues and challenges,
1:32:38 > 1:32:43I do not intend to repeat them in the short time available this
1:32:43 > 1:32:50afternoon. A number of agricultural businesses on the borders rely on
1:32:50 > 1:32:55seasonal migrant workers. It is important to make a short
1:32:55 > 1:32:59contribution to this debate. I'm delighted to have the opportunity to
1:32:59 > 1:33:03put on record that the seasonal workers are welcome in the borders
1:33:03 > 1:33:08and contribute hugely to the local economy. Businesses like that of
1:33:08 > 1:33:13Neil Thompson, near Kelso, he employs more than 20 seasonal
1:33:13 > 1:33:19workers to pick over 200 acres of broccoli and cauliflower. These
1:33:19 > 1:33:24workers are reliable and hard-working and they contribute to
1:33:24 > 1:33:27the Scottish Borders. One has been kept on permanently and moved his
1:33:27 > 1:33:33family to the area. There have been challenges in recruiting seasonal
1:33:33 > 1:33:36workers in recent years but I think we have to be careful about
1:33:36 > 1:33:41attributing this to Brexit. Across other sectors, including hospitality
1:33:41 > 1:33:45and health care, the numbers of people coming from the EU to work
1:33:45 > 1:33:52here have been falling. This is a trend which started long before the
1:33:52 > 1:33:59EU referendum was even announced. I give member to -- I give way.I
1:33:59 > 1:34:02appreciate the point the honourable member is making about seasonal
1:34:02 > 1:34:08workers but if you look at figures for Scotland you will see that
1:34:08 > 1:34:10almost 50% of the workforce in hospitality in Edinburgh and Glasgow
1:34:10 > 1:34:14comes from people coming from elsewhere in the European Union. How
1:34:14 > 1:34:19will the seasonal workers scheme helps that when at the moment, as
1:34:19 > 1:34:26members of the European Union, they can come here freely?I'm grateful
1:34:26 > 1:34:35for the member for making that point. In the agricultural sector,
1:34:35 > 1:34:38there are challenges in other parts of the economy, it does not remove
1:34:38 > 1:34:41from the fact that over the last ten years there has been a trend in a
1:34:41 > 1:34:45downward direction in terms of the numbers of workers coming from the
1:34:45 > 1:34:51EU to work in our economy. Work in the UK seems less attractive than it
1:34:51 > 1:34:55did a decade ago. There are a range of factors, members have described
1:34:55 > 1:35:00what those are but most notably it means a drop in the value of the
1:35:00 > 1:35:05pound. Many voices in the industry favour the reintroduction of the
1:35:05 > 1:35:10seasonal agricultural workers scheme which came to an end: Bulgaria and
1:35:10 > 1:35:17Romania's remission to the EU. -- a mission to the EU. We should at
1:35:17 > 1:35:20least look at something similar so opportunities can be brought about
1:35:20 > 1:35:29because of Brexit. There are calls on the UK Government to look at the
1:35:29 > 1:35:33scheme to meet the seasonal needs of farmers not just across Scotland in
1:35:33 > 1:35:37my constituency, but across the United Kingdom. A final point I
1:35:37 > 1:35:42would like to make is the issue which started to highlight the
1:35:42 > 1:35:46importance of maintaining the UK's internal market. Easy movement of
1:35:46 > 1:35:50staff across the UK, something which the Scottish National Party
1:35:50 > 1:35:54government in Edinburgh seems unable to understand. Seasonal migrant
1:35:54 > 1:36:00workers often start working in one part of the UK and travel across the
1:36:00 > 1:36:05country on different jobs in one season. The effect of the SNP's call
1:36:05 > 1:36:07for a separate immigration policy makes it harder for workers to do
1:36:07 > 1:36:13this. As the director of policy at the National farmers union for
1:36:13 > 1:36:18Scotland has said, the last thing that farmers need is a checkpoint at
1:36:18 > 1:36:23Berwick. As is often the case, the needs of the farming sector are the
1:36:23 > 1:36:28same north and south of the border. This is dealt with on a UK wide
1:36:28 > 1:36:33basis rather than done on a Scottish only basis. I will give way to the
1:36:33 > 1:36:36member for Edinburgh West.I appreciate the honourable member for
1:36:36 > 1:36:40giving way but if the last thing the NFU wants is a checkpoint at the
1:36:40 > 1:36:43border, why did he think they would appreciate one between here and
1:36:43 > 1:36:50Europe?I understand the Lib Dem party policy is for us to go back in
1:36:50 > 1:36:55to Europe but the reality is the British people have voted in a
1:36:55 > 1:37:01referendum to leave the European Union, they don't have too accept
1:37:01 > 1:37:04democratic decision of their fellow countrymen and women and any
1:37:04 > 1:37:08suggestion that we should veto the decision suggests they have not made
1:37:08 > 1:37:12the right decision. Get on with Brexit to deliver the best result
1:37:12 > 1:37:15for all of our constituents for Scotland and all of the UK. I
1:37:15 > 1:37:21appreciate the Liberal Democrats do not agree. We must get on with
1:37:21 > 1:37:26Brexit as best as we can. We need to deal with immigration on a UK wide
1:37:26 > 1:37:30basis rather than taking a Scotland only approach and instead of
1:37:30 > 1:37:33constantly pushing for differentiation from the UK, the
1:37:33 > 1:37:37Scottish Government would be better to serve farmers working with UK
1:37:37 > 1:37:40counterparts to make sure they develop a seasonal migrant system
1:37:40 > 1:37:43meeting the needs of Scottish farmers. I conclude by
1:37:43 > 1:37:46congratulating my honourable friend for bringing this important debate
1:37:46 > 1:37:50to the attention of the house. I look forward to working closely with
1:37:50 > 1:37:53her and the United Kingdom government to get the best deal for
1:37:53 > 1:37:59Scottish farms.
1:37:59 > 1:38:05Peter Grant.Thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker. And to
1:38:05 > 1:38:09everyone here, happy Saint Davids Day and happy first day of spring in
1:38:09 > 1:38:15case anyone didn't notice! I commend the honourable member for Angus for
1:38:15 > 1:38:23having secured many years ago, I suspect before some members see were
1:38:23 > 1:38:26born, I worked for the Health and Safety Executive in Dundee and I
1:38:26 > 1:38:30spent time in Angus and Perthshire visiting small businesses. One thing
1:38:30 > 1:38:39it taught me was in relation to direct employment in food processing
1:38:39 > 1:38:43and places like Perthshire, the number of small family owned
1:38:43 > 1:38:47businesses and other professions that rely on agriculture is massive.
1:38:47 > 1:38:52If got the mechanics, the engineers, the blacksmiths, lawyers,
1:38:52 > 1:38:57accountants, haulage subcontractors, as well as the jobs visible, people
1:38:57 > 1:39:00working in the fields and effectively the whole economy of
1:39:00 > 1:39:08that part of Scotland is underpinned by that produce industry, that is
1:39:08 > 1:39:16what it is so important to protect it. Quality fruit and veg adds £300
1:39:16 > 1:39:21million a year, 10% of our entire agricultural output, almost as much
1:39:21 > 1:39:28as the more obvious industries of dairy and sheep farming for example.
1:39:28 > 1:39:33And I hope that whatever happens of our relationship with the EU and
1:39:33 > 1:39:39others, that those who rightly take us pride in producing some of the
1:39:39 > 1:39:46best fruit and veg in the world continue to market it under the
1:39:46 > 1:39:51brand, branded as good as anything can be in anything else in the
1:39:51 > 1:39:58world. But we know that in a single year one corporative based in Angus
1:39:58 > 1:40:04reported a loss of income of £660,000 simply because of Labour
1:40:04 > 1:40:09shortages and a single year, that's one cooperative of 18 growers which
1:40:09 > 1:40:15is not likely to be any different from lots of others. This is an
1:40:15 > 1:40:21industry, this is a part of our economy under severe stress, and as
1:40:21 > 1:40:24the honourable member from North Perthshire said, it is difficult
1:40:24 > 1:40:29this year if the government does not act and act very quickly, next year
1:40:29 > 1:40:32and the following year could become impossible. We could see what has
1:40:32 > 1:40:37been an iconic part of Scottish project of decades if not centuries,
1:40:37 > 1:40:41we could actually see an end to soft fruit growing and parts of Scotland.
1:40:41 > 1:40:45I'm going to come onto the UK Government 's response to that
1:40:45 > 1:40:49potential threat later. It was reported in the Guardian last summer
1:40:49 > 1:40:55that a survey by the NFU had found that between January and May 2017
1:40:55 > 1:41:04families in the UK recruited a total of 13,400 workers. 14 of them were
1:41:04 > 1:41:11from England, not 14,000, not even 140 but 14 out of almost 13,400 were
1:41:11 > 1:41:15from the UK. Other speakers have already commented on the complex
1:41:15 > 1:41:20reasons why it is simply not credible to expect overseas seasonal
1:41:20 > 1:41:25migrant workers to be replaced by home grown workers any time in the
1:41:25 > 1:41:30next ten, 15, 20 years, maybe never at all. The industry will not last
1:41:30 > 1:41:38that long if they can't pick the fruit. We must also remember that as
1:41:38 > 1:41:43well as the potentially disastrous impact on parts of the agriculture
1:41:43 > 1:41:46sector, the government 's attitude to immigration, treating it as
1:41:46 > 1:41:51numbers to be dragged down at all costs, affects so many more of the
1:41:51 > 1:41:54things that settling in Scotland and many other parts of the UK we should
1:41:54 > 1:42:00be proud of having built up over the years. Scotland, for the size of its
1:42:00 > 1:42:04population, we have possibly more. Universities than anywhere else in
1:42:04 > 1:42:08the world. Partly because of the numbers of overseas students and the
1:42:08 > 1:42:12numbers of exceptionally talented, dedicated overseas research staff,
1:42:12 > 1:42:19lecturers, and other stuff, who just now come over clearly under freedom
1:42:19 > 1:42:22of movement who have stopped coming and stopped expressing an interest
1:42:22 > 1:42:28in coming because they are not sure of their rights at this time,
1:42:28 > 1:42:31clearly, the demands on NHS queues and this is a very mature and our
1:42:31 > 1:42:37minds. They rely heavily on incoming workers as well. I hope it's not
1:42:37 > 1:42:39stretching the relevance, Madam Deputy Speaker, to mention a
1:42:39 > 1:42:42consultant surgeon in Glasgow this morning walked for three hours in
1:42:42 > 1:42:47the snow to get to work in Paisley. That is the dedication that we see
1:42:47 > 1:42:50from NHS workers regardless of where they have come from and we should
1:42:50 > 1:42:59always recognise that. The article I referred to in the Guardian, from
1:42:59 > 1:43:03last year, one employment agency, a director of an organisation called
1:43:03 > 1:43:07Hobbes Labour solutions exist to bring in seasonal workers to support
1:43:07 > 1:43:13the UK agriculture sector, he said the grim reality is that the
1:43:13 > 1:43:18perception from overseas is that we are xenophobic, we are racist. We
1:43:18 > 1:43:23might take exception to that. We might like to think that we are not
1:43:23 > 1:43:28but is if that is why we are perceived by even 10% of people who
1:43:28 > 1:43:31might have been thinking of coming to work in the UK then we have a
1:43:31 > 1:43:37problem. And it is a sad undeniable fact that one of the immediate
1:43:37 > 1:43:42impacts of the referendum vote in June 2060 was a massive spike in
1:43:42 > 1:43:47racially motivated crimes in many parts of the UK. And EU nationals
1:43:47 > 1:43:57living in the UK in the thousands have told us that they have
1:43:57 > 1:44:01experienced an increase in racially motivated attacks, they have begun
1:44:01 > 1:44:07to feel they are no longer welcome, and they have been made to feel that
1:44:07 > 1:44:09they may not be welcome either. By not saying that was the government
1:44:09 > 1:44:13's intention in calling a referendum, and not saying it is the
1:44:13 > 1:44:16intention of the 17 million people voted to leave but we must face the
1:44:16 > 1:44:23fact that one consequence of that referendum has been allowed to
1:44:23 > 1:44:28develop in a way that makes people from the EU feel less well, and less
1:44:28 > 1:44:31valid than before. And if the government keeps denying that, then
1:44:31 > 1:44:43the problem will only get worse. Madam Deputy Speaker.I think we've
1:44:43 > 1:44:47heard from the honourable member from Angus and Perthshire in that
1:44:47 > 1:44:52debate that although some parts of fruit and vegetable growing industry
1:44:52 > 1:44:58can be mechanised, some parts just now can't, and are not likely to be
1:44:58 > 1:45:04mechanised for several years, if not more. So that solutions that simply
1:45:04 > 1:45:07rely on significant investment in mechanisation might work for parts
1:45:07 > 1:45:15of the industry. They certainly will not work for our soft fruit growers.
1:45:15 > 1:45:25Last year, there was a debate on seasonal agricultural workers, the
1:45:25 > 1:45:30then minister gave an assurance that the system could be introduced
1:45:30 > 1:45:37within five to six months if necessary. I suggest that it is
1:45:37 > 1:45:40necessary and we should be looking to introduce it within less than
1:45:40 > 1:45:46five to six months if possible, the government may have accepted that
1:45:46 > 1:45:51there is a need to change the bad decision taken, I suggest that the
1:45:51 > 1:45:56need has now been established. I will give way.I thank my honourable
1:45:56 > 1:46:04friend forgiving way. We heard from the committee in Fife on that very
1:46:04 > 1:46:10issue and have frustratingly difficult he had found it to get
1:46:10 > 1:46:15traction, as he founded, to meet and discuss these solutions for dealing
1:46:15 > 1:46:20with this looming crisis such as SAWS. Would he join with me in
1:46:20 > 1:46:26calling an Home Office officials to me with other experts to try to find
1:46:26 > 1:46:38a way out of this Brexit thing. Absolutely and I would extend it to
1:46:38 > 1:46:43other services, the Home Office need to meet the people who work in
1:46:43 > 1:46:46agriculture and the health services and the social care services, to
1:46:46 > 1:46:55hear from them, emigration on a permanent basis or migration on a
1:46:55 > 1:47:04temporary basis, I will give way to my honourable friend.Field is an
1:47:04 > 1:47:12urgent requirement for a scheme with a five to six time limit being
1:47:12 > 1:47:17presented, why is the Home Office soaked cloth eared to the demands of
1:47:17 > 1:47:21the seasonal agricultural workers scheme, is it something to do with
1:47:21 > 1:47:23this self-defeating obsession of immigration and everything having to
1:47:23 > 1:47:27be put through this lens and stopping people coming to this
1:47:27 > 1:47:31country?I don't think that criticism applies only to the Home
1:47:31 > 1:47:35Office, it applies to the entire Cabinet, the entire government. This
1:47:35 > 1:47:38much too much of an obsession about immigration is a bad thing that has
1:47:38 > 1:47:41to be brought down at whatever cost and it's becoming clear that of the
1:47:41 > 1:47:45government is going to get anywhere close to delivering the headline
1:47:45 > 1:47:50reduction and immigration that they claim would be a good thing then the
1:47:50 > 1:47:52health services will sever, the agricultural sector will suffer and
1:47:52 > 1:47:58a great many other industries will suffer as well. I was somewhat
1:47:58 > 1:48:04surprised to the contribution from the honourable member for Selkirk,
1:48:04 > 1:48:09although he made some good points, he is in complete denial of the fact
1:48:09 > 1:48:14that although this problem is not entirely a creature of Brexit, it
1:48:14 > 1:48:18existed to an extent before Brexit, anyone who claims that Brexit isn't
1:48:18 > 1:48:24making the problem worse really needs to get back to planet Earth!
1:48:24 > 1:48:30It is blatantly obvious that one consequence, not only of the vote
1:48:30 > 1:48:38itself, but of the vile xenophobia that characterised so much of the
1:48:38 > 1:48:41debate, and inevitable consequence was always going to see, and we are
1:48:41 > 1:48:47seeing it, however the Honourable gentleman might put it, it has made
1:48:47 > 1:48:51the UK are less attractive place for people to want to come and live and
1:48:51 > 1:48:57work in. It blames part of it in the fall in the value of the pound, I
1:48:57 > 1:49:00wonder what might have made the pound go through the floor towards
1:49:00 > 1:49:06the end of the third week in June 2016? I wonder what might have upset
1:49:06 > 1:49:08the international economists and business people at that time? It
1:49:08 > 1:49:13didn't seem to affect the dollar or the Euro so it can't be blamed on
1:49:13 > 1:49:17global changes. Maybe the government are trying to blame other things.
1:49:17 > 1:49:21Even the House of Commons library, not usually renowned for taking
1:49:21 > 1:49:27sides in a political debate, in fact rightly renowned for not doing so,
1:49:27 > 1:49:32the briefing they have put out today says that since the closure of SAWS
1:49:32 > 1:49:37and particularly in the run-up to the UK's exit from the EU, that
1:49:37 > 1:49:41employers have found it more difficult to recruit staff from
1:49:41 > 1:49:45overseas. The government 's response as well as assurances that they got
1:49:45 > 1:49:52in July 2016 have not been taken any further, there has been a mention of
1:49:52 > 1:49:56the DEFRA consultation paper published just days ago. I find it
1:49:56 > 1:50:04interesting that the former environmental secretary now in
1:50:04 > 1:50:07Scotland, will remember fondly promises from the Environment
1:50:07 > 1:50:10Secretary shall issue and us that one consequence of Brexit would be
1:50:10 > 1:50:14that Scotland could have control of its own immigration policy! Maybe
1:50:14 > 1:50:20the member from the Borders might want to remind the Environment
1:50:20 > 1:50:23Secretary, they must've taken leave of their senses if they thought that
1:50:23 > 1:50:30was a possibility. In their DEFRA document, or 64 pages of it, the
1:50:30 > 1:50:38wood seasonal obvious ones. The crisis facing the sector by the
1:50:38 > 1:50:42inability to hire seasonal workers is hardly even recognised by the new
1:50:42 > 1:50:47DEFRA flagship consultation and presumably draft policy. When they
1:50:47 > 1:50:51talk about the Labour force is needed in agriculture they talk
1:50:51 > 1:50:54about investment and schools to mechanise, they are talking about
1:50:54 > 1:50:58engineers and the science and technology workers, some things that
1:50:58 > 1:51:00are not needed in parts of agriculture, talking about things
1:51:00 > 1:51:06that will make no difference to the soft fruit industry and other parts
1:51:06 > 1:51:08of agriculture because mechanisation is not realistic there. That gives a
1:51:08 > 1:51:14worrying impression that the software industry -- soft fruit
1:51:14 > 1:51:17industry is going to be allowed to literally wither on the vine. Madam
1:51:17 > 1:51:22Deputy Speaker says the government wrongly abandoned this scheme in
1:51:22 > 1:51:302013, -- Madam Deputy Speaker, who knew better than all the farmers and
1:51:30 > 1:51:33NFU and energy Scotland? The Home Secretary, you know better about
1:51:33 > 1:51:38agriculture than all the people who worked on it. Since the scheme was
1:51:38 > 1:51:42abandoned, the difficulties that the agriculture sector are going to face
1:51:42 > 1:51:44have been made substantially worse and will continue to get
1:51:44 > 1:51:51substantially worse.I thank the Honourable gentleman and I
1:51:51 > 1:51:55appreciate that it is an important subject in his constituency and he
1:51:55 > 1:52:01has made important points.I just ought to point out to the chamber
1:52:01 > 1:52:06that if the second debate that has Duterte place this afternoon had not
1:52:06 > 1:52:10been cancelled, the time limit for backbench speeches on this debate
1:52:10 > 1:52:14would have been approximately seven minutes. Normal on the debate of
1:52:14 > 1:52:20this kind of Thursday afternoon. The reason why the second debate has
1:52:20 > 1:52:25been cancelled was not in order that some members here could make
1:52:25 > 1:52:30speeches twice as long as they would have done in other circumstances is
1:52:30 > 1:52:34because of the very unusual weather circumstances under which we are
1:52:34 > 1:52:39operating. And while members might be aware only of what is happening
1:52:39 > 1:52:45in this chamber, I have in mind the hundreds of employees in this
1:52:45 > 1:52:49building who will have difficulty getting home to their families today
1:52:49 > 1:52:53and every extra minute that is taken in speeches and here is stopping
1:52:53 > 1:52:58someone getting a train that might not be cancelled. I know the
1:52:58 > 1:53:01Honourable gentleman is the most Honourable gentleman and normally
1:53:01 > 1:53:05sticks very carefully to time limits. We don't have a time limit
1:53:05 > 1:53:09this afternoon but he has taken twice as long as he would have taken
1:53:09 > 1:53:14if I had per day time limit on in normal circumstances. So I am sure
1:53:14 > 1:53:22he will bear that in mind. Peter Grant.
1:53:22 > 1:53:25Point of order, Mr Wishart. That's a very important role in you just made
1:53:25 > 1:53:29and I wonder whether it is worthwhile to abandon the business
1:53:29 > 1:53:34this afternoon now so that members of staff can get home in order to
1:53:34 > 1:53:39make it and get home because of the inclement weather.I appreciate the
1:53:39 > 1:53:43point the honourable gentleman is making, I do not have the power or
1:53:43 > 1:53:47inclination to abandon the business but I am making an appeal to the
1:53:47 > 1:53:53decency of members to say that sometimes if one is making a point,
1:53:53 > 1:54:01it can be made very quickly and just as effectively. Peter Grant.Thank
1:54:01 > 1:54:05you Madam Deputy Speaker, I have taken on board your comments, I was
1:54:05 > 1:54:09winding up anyway. Had there been a proposal from the government to
1:54:09 > 1:54:12amend standing orders today to bring forward a moment of interruption I
1:54:12 > 1:54:16do not think any of us would have opposed that, even those of us who
1:54:16 > 1:54:18have known since Wednesday that we were not getting home until
1:54:18 > 1:54:25tomorrow.Order, this is a challenge to a point I have just made from the
1:54:25 > 1:54:27chaff. It isn't
1:54:30 > 1:54:37-- I have just made from the chair, it isn't always necessary to make
1:54:37 > 1:54:41rules, I am making absolutely no criticism of him, I'm merely
1:54:41 > 1:54:44pointing this out and he is not the only person who has exceeded the
1:54:44 > 1:54:50seven minutes that would have been the time limit. Mr Grant.Thank you
1:54:50 > 1:54:57again, Madam Deputy Speaker. The scheme was abandoned wrongly,
1:54:57 > 1:55:01erroneously, arrogantly, by a Home Secretary who would not listen to
1:55:01 > 1:55:07the people most affected. That continues to be the tone the
1:55:07 > 1:55:11government has in relation to Brexit and almost anything else. Of course
1:55:11 > 1:55:17it is all the Scottish Government 's fault. The reason we are having this
1:55:17 > 1:55:21debate at all, the reason why we have to consider reintroducing the
1:55:21 > 1:55:27scheme is because the government's continued obsession that
1:55:28 > 1:55:32freedom of movement is a bad thing. Freedom of movement of ideas and
1:55:32 > 1:55:38beliefs is, in my view, an unqualified and unreservedly good
1:55:38 > 1:55:42thing. I will say again to the Minister, although it is not her
1:55:42 > 1:55:46decision to make, can she go back to her government and say to them that
1:55:46 > 1:55:49the way to prevent the massive disruption to the agricultural
1:55:49 > 1:55:58sector and other sectors, in the economy, isn't simply to introduce
1:55:58 > 1:56:03SAWs with the difficulties we will have this year but to reconsider
1:56:03 > 1:56:08unilateral decisions about freedom of movement, to look again and if we
1:56:08 > 1:56:11want to isolate ourselves further from the biggest market in Europe,
1:56:11 > 1:56:14to remain in the single market and remain in the customs union and most
1:56:14 > 1:56:19of the difficulties raised today will be reduced, if not resolved,
1:56:19 > 1:56:28altogether.I will speak briefly and quickly. It is my pleasure to speak
1:56:28 > 1:56:33in this debate and I congratulate my honourable friend for securing this.
1:56:33 > 1:56:39Until 2013 the seasonal agricultural workers scheme facilitated foreign
1:56:39 > 1:56:43workers to work on farms. Before the scheme was closed, 513 farmers used
1:56:43 > 1:56:50the scheme. Seasonal workers from overseas have played a crucial role
1:56:50 > 1:56:53in agricultural industry. Fall of the technology we see on farms, one
1:56:53 > 1:56:57of the automation and Robotics, the human hand is needed for many jobs
1:56:57 > 1:57:00involved in the process of getting food from the farm to the
1:57:00 > 1:57:04supermarket. As we have heard, 80,000 people per year make their
1:57:04 > 1:57:08way into the country to assist in the process. That is why a reliable
1:57:08 > 1:57:12workforce is so important, otherwise we find a situation where fruit and
1:57:12 > 1:57:19crops are left to waste. There was a shortage and 15% of migrant workers
1:57:19 > 1:57:28in the horticultural select committee. There is an enquiry into
1:57:28 > 1:57:32immigration. While members of the committee may ultimately have
1:57:32 > 1:57:35disagreement on how we tackle those, some prefer a regional approach but
1:57:35 > 1:57:39others like myself are inclined to look at a UK wide sectoral response
1:57:39 > 1:57:43there is no question that immigration is necessary and we need
1:57:43 > 1:57:46to ensure that the UK remains an attractive place for individuals to
1:57:46 > 1:57:52start and live. Immigration is desirable and Britain wouldn't be
1:57:52 > 1:58:02half as great today as if it wasn't for it. The scheme will allow
1:58:02 > 1:58:08workers to come into the country to fill the workforce. It had skills
1:58:08 > 1:58:11and labour that our rural businesses need while adding an important
1:58:11 > 1:58:17element of control over the number of people arriving here for work. It
1:58:17 > 1:58:20underpins a significant element of the vote to leave the EU, I cannot
1:58:20 > 1:58:26accept it was right of the government to pull up the
1:58:26 > 1:58:29drawbridge. They won the British are meant to be able to control the
1:58:29 > 1:58:32numbers who come here based on current needs. The worker scheme
1:58:32 > 1:58:37would allow us to do this, opening up at high demand and reducing it
1:58:37 > 1:58:42when a domestic workforce can cover the gaps. Post Brexit opposed to
1:58:42 > 1:58:48immigration will be flexible. We must be able to adapt our approach
1:58:48 > 1:58:53as a society and as the economy changes. Another benefit would be to
1:58:53 > 1:58:57open it up more widely, even prior to 2013 only select European
1:58:57 > 1:59:03countries could take advantage. And like the system to be open to anyone
1:59:03 > 1:59:06with necessary skills and expertise. Earlier this year the home affairs
1:59:06 > 1:59:10select committee released a report that looked at the seasonal worker
1:59:10 > 1:59:14scheme. They said it was well managed by the Home Office and
1:59:14 > 1:59:18growers got a supply of efficient labour, British workers will not
1:59:18 > 1:59:22displaced and integration issues were limited. Following a glowing
1:59:22 > 1:59:26report, why wouldn't we reintroduce a similar scheme now? In addition, I
1:59:26 > 1:59:31would like to see the government bolstering the domestic workforce in
1:59:31 > 1:59:36the UK and encourage locals into this kind of work that it is
1:59:36 > 1:59:39important to recognise that it is hard to recruit in sufficient
1:59:39 > 1:59:44numbers into the UK. With the system allow us to access the labour that
1:59:44 > 1:59:50we need? Contrary to belief, there are a lot of skilled workers, who
1:59:50 > 1:59:53come from abroad. I am delighted to support a motion that would make it
1:59:53 > 1:59:57easier for this to happen. I urge the government to take forward the
1:59:57 > 2:00:00points raised by my honourable friend, the member for Angus, in the
2:00:00 > 2:00:06motion today.In the interest of time will be briefed on my remarks.
2:00:06 > 2:00:10I wish to congratulate the honourable member for Angus in
2:00:10 > 2:00:14securing this debate. As those of us who take the time to go across the
2:00:14 > 2:00:21road and read the EU exit analysis briefing, which has been leaked and
2:00:21 > 2:00:26now is in the public domain, we will know the agricultural industry will
2:00:26 > 2:00:29be one of the most impacted following Brexit. This is in
2:00:29 > 2:00:33addition to the effective the
2:00:36 > 2:00:41doctrine scheme closing at the end of 2013. The scheme was set up in
2:00:41 > 2:00:441945 to address post-war labour shortages and more recently it has
2:00:44 > 2:00:49allowed fruit and vegetable growers to employ migrant workers from the
2:00:49 > 2:00:53European Union and beyond to do short-term agricultural work for a
2:00:53 > 2:00:57maximum of six months. The reason given by the coalition government
2:00:57 > 2:01:01for the closure of the scheme was that there were already sufficient
2:01:01 > 2:01:05numbers of workers to meet the labour needs in agriculture and what
2:01:05 > 2:01:11cultural sectors. But this is not proven to be the case. Since the
2:01:11 > 2:01:15closure of the scheme, the industry is suffering a shortfall in workers,
2:01:15 > 2:01:19and crops have been left on harvested. The viability of the
2:01:19 > 2:01:22industry has been left in the balance. Many in the sector are
2:01:22 > 2:01:27calling for the scheme to be revived or for something similar. As the
2:01:27 > 2:01:30honourable member for Faversham and Mid Kent has previously stated, by
2:01:30 > 2:01:34the very nature of being seasonal work and therefore having a short
2:01:34 > 2:01:42employment period, the work has proved to be historically
2:01:42 > 2:01:49unattractive to British citizens and requirements often far outstrip the
2:01:49 > 2:01:52unemployed population in these areas. The EU has introduced
2:01:52 > 2:01:56protection for seasonal workers in the form of the EU seasonal workers
2:01:56 > 2:02:02directive which was adopted by the UK in 2014. It sets out the
2:02:02 > 2:02:08parameters which states must adhere to. Action is needed now, as 43% of
2:02:08 > 2:02:12labour providers are not expected to be able to source and supply
2:02:12 > 2:02:16sufficient workers for the food and manufacturing distribution sectors
2:02:16 > 2:02:20in 2018, meaning food will be rotting in fields due to labour
2:02:20 > 2:02:24shortages. If the government truly cares about supporting agriculture
2:02:24 > 2:02:31and the horticultural industry, they should introduce a new scheme now
2:02:31 > 2:02:36and make sure that when the immigration bill is introduced,
2:02:36 > 2:02:40migration workers need to be supported in these industries. We
2:02:40 > 2:02:45need to have a long-term solution to Labour shortages in the UK and the
2:02:45 > 2:02:49government shouldn't let British farms go under because of the
2:02:49 > 2:02:52government's arbitrary immigration targets. We need to make sure the
2:02:52 > 2:02:56government's approach to Brexit does not adversely impact jobs and
2:02:56 > 2:02:59prosperity and we have an immigration policy based on the
2:02:59 > 2:03:11needs of the economy.I think others might...I congratulate the
2:03:11 > 2:03:15honourable lady for securing this debate. I will speak briefly. I
2:03:15 > 2:03:19would start off by saying that without wishing to be unhelpfully
2:03:19 > 2:03:23competitive, I think the issue of migrant workers is shown to matter
2:03:23 > 2:03:27in my constituency of Boston and Skegness. Perhaps more than anywhere
2:03:27 > 2:03:31else in the UK, I say that not because of the hugely valuable
2:03:31 > 2:03:35contribution of those people from outside Lincoln city I were largely
2:03:35 > 2:03:38agricultural economy over many centuries or because of the quality
2:03:38 > 2:03:44of the Brassicas but because it was workers primarily from Eastern
2:03:44 > 2:03:47Europe that provoked the vote in Boston and Skegness more strongly
2:03:47 > 2:03:51for Brexit than elsewhere in the country. I have said in this house
2:03:51 > 2:03:55before that we shouldn't be shy of saying that in certain parts of the
2:03:55 > 2:03:59UK immigration was, for the great majority, the prime reason they
2:03:59 > 2:04:02voted to leave the EU. I say it again now. I hope this debate will
2:04:02 > 2:04:06be past the process that's a cause for Britain not only the labour
2:04:06 > 2:04:17force that we need for the future of our agricultural sector but also
2:04:17 > 2:04:19secures an immigration policy that carries with it popular consent and
2:04:19 > 2:04:21is not precipitate widespread discontent that was, in part,
2:04:21 > 2:04:23expressed during the debates we heard in the referendum. If I may, I
2:04:23 > 2:04:27will begin by emphasising that mine is a constituency that has always
2:04:27 > 2:04:31welcomed seasonal workers. At first from the Midlands, then Ireland and
2:04:31 > 2:04:36Portugal, then expanded EU countries. Many shops that may
2:04:36 > 2:04:41otherwise be empty in my constituency that call themselves
2:04:41 > 2:04:43European supermarkets are vibrant new communities that exist because
2:04:43 > 2:04:47of seasonal work but while that vibrant new economy is a great
2:04:47 > 2:04:53thing, the social complications of a huge new community, it has been
2:04:53 > 2:04:57challenging for many in my constituency. The lack of a
2:04:57 > 2:04:59functioning immigration policy surrounding seasonal workers, as a
2:04:59 > 2:05:03result of Tony Blair's decision not to take up transitional options,
2:05:03 > 2:05:07serves to highlight the real need for a functioning seasonal
2:05:07 > 2:05:10agricultural workers scheme such as we used to have and I hope we will
2:05:10 > 2:05:16have again in future. One third of Boston's population is from abroad,
2:05:16 > 2:05:21most often came for seasonal work, with the rights under freedom of
2:05:21 > 2:05:24movement. That approach did not work for my constituency then and it
2:05:24 > 2:05:28would be wrong to suggest it would do so now. What I would argue we
2:05:28 > 2:05:34need instead is an approach that acknowledges the season as much
2:05:34 > 2:05:37longer because of associated industries but also acknowledges
2:05:37 > 2:05:43that when we have the freedom of movement that we have seen
2:05:43 > 2:05:46previously, it results in significantly increased pressures on
2:05:46 > 2:05:50public services and also results in significant social challenges. The
2:05:50 > 2:05:55scheme we are talking about today is needed for vital economic and social
2:05:55 > 2:05:59reasons as well. It is vital that we get this right but also that we
2:05:59 > 2:06:04seize the opportunities that it may present. I would like to plant three
2:06:04 > 2:06:09ideas in the Minister's enormous mind. The first is that the scheme
2:06:09 > 2:06:16should be demand letter, the advisory committee should pay heed
2:06:16 > 2:06:20to the possibilities of mechanisation, which I believe are
2:06:20 > 2:06:25genuinely enormous and I would suggest where she and her place,
2:06:25 > 2:06:29that the honourable member, there is no part of the industry that could
2:06:29 > 2:06:33not in due course be mechanised but we need to pay attention to the
2:06:33 > 2:06:39needs of the industry now. That is, of course, not to say that enormous
2:06:39 > 2:06:43numbers are always necessary but the NFU and major operators like those
2:06:43 > 2:06:47in my constituency must have their voices heard. And we should
2:06:47 > 2:06:50explicitly tidy conditions in which a person lives and the consequent
2:06:50 > 2:06:54pressures they place on local services and housing supply to the
2:06:54 > 2:06:59supply of seasonal work permits. I would argue a sponsor in terms of a
2:06:59 > 2:07:02major operator or properly regulated gang master must indicate the length
2:07:02 > 2:07:07of time a person would definitely be paid for regardless of the work they
2:07:07 > 2:07:10are doing and they should have to prove that they will be housed
2:07:10 > 2:07:14appropriately. Properly done it's a real opportunity to tackle modern
2:07:14 > 2:07:17slavery that taints agricultural work on which this government has
2:07:17 > 2:07:23done so much. Thirdly and finally, I would ask for a final thing. Through
2:07:23 > 2:07:27the sponsorship scheme I have spoken about, we may be able to have a
2:07:27 > 2:07:31nudging influence over regional patterns of migration. There can be
2:07:31 > 2:07:36no border posts between Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire but it may allow
2:07:36 > 2:07:40us to better protect local pressures on some public services, although
2:07:40 > 2:07:45changes to free movement will affect that much more. So, Madam Deputy
2:07:45 > 2:07:50Speaker, I will conclude by saying this economically vital move can be
2:07:50 > 2:07:53a huge opportunity, an opportunity to avoid the mistakes of the past
2:07:53 > 2:07:57and also to shape our country for the better for the future and I hope
2:07:57 > 2:08:00she will consider both sides of the coin as she works on this vital
2:08:00 > 2:08:14project.
2:08:14 > 2:08:21Pete Wishart.Thank you DEFRA. I congratulate the Honourable Lady on
2:08:21 > 2:08:27securing this debate. Her predecessor was such a champion of
2:08:27 > 2:08:33agricultural issues and I think it was he, in a series of debates, with
2:08:33 > 2:08:39proper interventions, who first warned of the danger of losing the
2:08:39 > 2:08:44SAWS and the impact that would have on businesses in both her
2:08:44 > 2:08:50constituency and mine so we owe a great deal to his work. As you know
2:08:50 > 2:08:56DEFRA absence of the finest agricultural businesses in Scotland.
2:08:56 > 2:08:59Strathmore, myself and the Honourable Lady Cher, I used to
2:08:59 > 2:09:06represent her part of it years ago, and part of it has been described as
2:09:06 > 2:09:11the of eastern Scotland. The town of Blairgowrie in my constituency is
2:09:11 > 2:09:15synonymous with the soft food industry, much of the heritage of
2:09:15 > 2:09:26East Perthshire is bound together with tales of a farm and stories of
2:09:26 > 2:09:30luggies, all at risk because of the cloth eared purge of this government
2:09:30 > 2:09:34to seasonal workers and it's self-defeating and damaging
2:09:34 > 2:09:37obsession with seeing absolutely everything through the lens of
2:09:37 > 2:09:41immigration. For this government immigration is something that has to
2:09:41 > 2:09:45be stopped, it is to be curbed. It has become collateral which has
2:09:45 > 2:09:51become a real issue for this, it now threatens the very survival of so
2:09:51 > 2:09:56many farms in my constituency. I try to figure out, why are they so
2:09:56 > 2:10:01resistant to putting forward a seasonal agricultural workers
2:10:01 > 2:10:05scheme? It can only be about immigration. Could the Honourable
2:10:05 > 2:10:09Lady tell me why there is a reticence to put in place such a
2:10:09 > 2:10:14scheme? It is all about immigration, isn't it. I see a blank look so I
2:10:14 > 2:10:18assume that is what it is because Madam Deputy Speaker, everything
2:10:18 > 2:10:22about leaving the EU, for this government is about stopping,
2:10:22 > 2:10:25curbing, doing all they can to stop people coming to this country. In
2:10:25 > 2:10:32the NFU Scotland, helpful and useful report which demonstrates the scale
2:10:32 > 2:10:35that businesses in my constituency and her constituency and all other
2:10:35 > 2:10:42members from Scotland rely on for migrant Labour. Madam Deputy Speaker
2:10:42 > 2:10:50I know it is hard to believe this, with the Beast from the East
2:10:50 > 2:10:53settling in London but the first strawberries of this is never
2:10:53 > 2:10:58actually appeared. They have come from a place in South Wales and
2:10:58 > 2:11:06beating the record set ten years ago in February. It just shows the scale
2:11:06 > 2:11:11of the innovation part of this industry, the technology that has
2:11:11 > 2:11:18been applied, the way this season has been extended to incorporate new
2:11:18 > 2:11:23methods, use a poly tunnels. Now it's from April to the end of
2:11:23 > 2:11:28October, it is fantastic to get up and that of strawberries before
2:11:28 > 2:11:31Easter holidays and still enjoy them before Halloween, that's the type of
2:11:31 > 2:11:35season we are in now, the type of issue we need to address. But what
2:11:35 > 2:11:42remains the same, for all the advent in technology and the way we do
2:11:42 > 2:11:47business is that someone needs to make sure that the crop is planted,
2:11:47 > 2:11:51maintained, and harvested. Someone still has to do that. When I was a
2:11:51 > 2:11:56young lad, we've heard some stories so far, this was traditionally done
2:11:56 > 2:11:59by local and younger people, the young Pete Wishart regularly heading
2:11:59 > 2:12:03out to the fields with his buddy by his side and enjoying the prospect
2:12:03 > 2:12:08of being in the open air to supplement is meagre pocket money in
2:12:08 > 2:12:19the summer. Then in the tatties holiday I would be out getting the
2:12:19 > 2:12:22tatties out of the fields, this is something we all enjoyed and paid
2:12:22 > 2:12:26for my first musical instruments, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the
2:12:26 > 2:12:34contribution that seasonal work in the fields has made to the aspiring
2:12:34 > 2:12:37Wishart as a musician! Now practically all that soft food comes
2:12:37 > 2:12:46from the other side of Europe, and I was in this house when the SAWS was
2:12:46 > 2:12:52actually put in place. I remember all the debates we had about the
2:12:52 > 2:12:55seasonal agricultural workers scheme because the Labour government will
2:12:55 > 2:13:01always quite keen to get shot of it. Not the most friendly government,
2:13:01 > 2:13:04shall we say, towards the countryside and agricultural issues.
2:13:04 > 2:13:09It just wasn't part and parcel of the way a Labour government would
2:13:09 > 2:13:13look at these issues. They had very few members representing countryside
2:13:13 > 2:13:16areas. So than the Conservative government came in and we were told
2:13:16 > 2:13:23not to worry about the seasonal agricultural workers scheme because
2:13:23 > 2:13:29we were in the European union and all these accession countries what
2:13:29 > 2:13:33are people coming freely because of freedom of movement, don't worry
2:13:33 > 2:13:38about the steady supply of Labour. Well, that has worked out perfectly,
2:13:38 > 2:13:42hasn't it? Because we are about to leave the EU and that source of
2:13:42 > 2:13:49migrant Labour will quickly diminish. The Honourable member from
2:13:49 > 2:13:55customers in and there was this key point. Could it be about getting by
2:13:55 > 2:13:59this year? I'm not certain that all the businesses in my constituency
2:13:59 > 2:14:02will survive but somehow they will muddle through because we still have
2:14:02 > 2:14:07that access to Eastern European Labour, and that will go next year,
2:14:07 > 2:14:11unless we have transitional arrangements in place. Maybe the
2:14:11 > 2:14:14Minister could give that assurance now that they will be transition
2:14:14 > 2:14:21until they put their act together. Next becomes critical. I will not
2:14:21 > 2:14:25get into the debate about where we go looking for other migrant workers
2:14:25 > 2:14:30and all this stuff from Ukraine to Sri Lanka. It sounds a bit like
2:14:30 > 2:14:35fantasy, we had such a good source of migrant Labour previously. And
2:14:35 > 2:14:40this other massive disincentive, the exchange rate, the fact that
2:14:40 > 2:14:44seasonal agricultural workers can do it in more clement conditions in
2:14:44 > 2:14:48Spain and southern Europe. And they have the euro so it would be a
2:14:48 > 2:14:51problem. But don't pretend that the climbing exchange rate has nothing
2:14:51 > 2:14:57to do with the chaotic Brexit. It's got everything to do with that. So
2:14:57 > 2:15:01we are taking a double hit when it comes to seasonal and agricultural
2:15:01 > 2:15:06workers. We're not just losing them because of the lack of freedom of
2:15:06 > 2:15:11movement that because of the chaos caused by Brexit meaning that they
2:15:11 > 2:15:21will earn less money than a little here. In several occasions I have
2:15:21 > 2:15:25probably visited most of the farms in my constituency and probably
2:15:25 > 2:15:29those in the Honourable Lady's constituency and I've found an
2:15:29 > 2:15:31incredible melting pot of people from different countries who have
2:15:31 > 2:15:34come to Scotland to sample a different kind of experience. What
2:15:34 > 2:15:42we've seen over the years is to all sorts of cultural evenings, through
2:15:42 > 2:15:46ceilidhs people enjoy the experience of Scotland. These are the brightest
2:15:46 > 2:15:50and the best, the students who will in future years be earning their own
2:15:50 > 2:15:55hard earned euros, and what we want to do is give them a positive
2:15:55 > 2:16:03experience so they will come back to Scotland, that is soft power at its
2:16:03 > 2:16:06very very best, seasonal agricultural workers good for the
2:16:06 > 2:16:10producer, good for the migrant to consider, good for the local
2:16:10 > 2:16:14communities, good for our nation. Minister, sorted, fix it, make sure
2:16:14 > 2:16:20we get it sorted. Another point I want make, Madam Deputy Speaker, I
2:16:20 > 2:16:24have the Houten Institute in my constituency. It does some fantastic
2:16:24 > 2:16:28work in ensuring that the crop especially in raspberries and shall
2:16:28 > 2:16:33bruise and also in potatoes is more resilient and productive, is more
2:16:33 > 2:16:37pest resistant. The people working in this institute are primarily
2:16:37 > 2:16:42European. They are thinking about going away. Why would they stay in a
2:16:42 > 2:16:46country telling them that they the cause of all the problems and its
2:16:46 > 2:16:50defining priority is to make sure that people like them stop coming
2:16:50 > 2:16:54here. Why would they continue to work here, when they have
2:16:54 > 2:16:57transferable skills and could go elsewhere where they would be much
2:16:57 > 2:17:02more welcome and accommodating. So from the field to the laboratory we
2:17:02 > 2:17:09require that Labour. And it is this that we put at risk, Madam Deputy
2:17:09 > 2:17:13Speaker. I have just one message to the Minister. We have debated this
2:17:13 > 2:17:17and debated this. Get it sorted. Put forward a scheme where we note that
2:17:17 > 2:17:20we can go back to our farmers and tell them that they will have
2:17:20 > 2:17:28something in place that will allow them to harvest their crops. 750
2:17:28 > 2:17:31tonnes of Scottish soft food production is dependent on this
2:17:31 > 2:17:36minister doing the right thing. We could end in this situation where
2:17:36 > 2:17:39other we have one of the best products in the world, Oscar shells
2:17:39 > 2:17:44will be packed with foreign produce. That is what matters, Madam Deputy
2:17:44 > 2:17:56Speaker, three words, get it sorted! Here, here. Thank you Madam Deputy
2:17:56 > 2:18:00Speaker. I will be brief with my remarks, in accordance with your
2:18:00 > 2:18:05words. I will start by congratulating the Honourable member
2:18:05 > 2:18:08for Angus for a contribution and all the other members. One thing is
2:18:08 > 2:18:13clear, it appears to be a consensus. That is that the government needs to
2:18:13 > 2:18:20take urgent action. Labour will take decisive action to reinstate the
2:18:20 > 2:18:27SAWS. We will put jobs and prosperity at the centre of our
2:18:27 > 2:18:31approach to Brexit. We will not sacrifice crops and British farming
2:18:31 > 2:18:37businesses to police factions of the Tory party. Farming and agriculture
2:18:37 > 2:18:43have the largest and most pressing needs the seasonal migrant workers.
2:18:43 > 2:18:47The Association of Labour providers estimate that between 90 and 95% of
2:18:47 > 2:18:53seasonal workers in food processing and agriculture are from other EU
2:18:53 > 2:18:58countries, mainly Romania and Bulgaria. The sector is already
2:18:58 > 2:19:04having difficulty finding laboured to meet their needs. Even before we
2:19:04 > 2:19:08wanted to leave just before we voted to leave the EU businesses were
2:19:08 > 2:19:12calling for the government to act to address this Labour shortage. In a
2:19:12 > 2:19:20report by the EFRA committee, it found that the current problem was
2:19:20 > 2:19:24in danger of becoming a crisis if urgent measures were not taken to
2:19:24 > 2:19:29fill gaps in Labour supply. There were also concerned that the
2:19:29 > 2:19:34government did not seem to recognise the scale of the issue. In his
2:19:34 > 2:19:38speech to the National farmers union, the Secretary of State for
2:19:38 > 2:19:42the environment food and rural affairs finally acknowledge the
2:19:42 > 2:19:45extent of the issues but did not government to doing anything about
2:19:45 > 2:19:54it. He said, it is already the case that the supply of Labour from EU 27
2:19:54 > 2:19:56countries is diminishing, as their economies are recovering and
2:19:56 > 2:20:03growing. I understand that you need to see action quickly, not least to
2:20:03 > 2:20:11deal with imminent Pesce in the year ahead. The NFU has put forward
2:20:11 > 2:20:16stronger, and, to my mind, compelling arguments for a seasonal
2:20:16 > 2:20:21agricultural workers scheme. But he stopped there. He did not commit to
2:20:21 > 2:20:23taking any action. The only commitment to the government has
2:20:23 > 2:20:30given is that the migration advisory committee looking into it. Not good
2:20:30 > 2:20:39enough. They want report until September, businesses need to plan
2:20:39 > 2:20:52for next season, the remit is very broad. There is no guarantee that
2:20:52 > 2:20:59the map will find in favour of a seasonal agricultural workers
2:20:59 > 2:21:04scheme, even if they do, come at a longer will it take for the
2:21:04 > 2:21:07government to implement it? Other sectors are reliant on seasonal
2:21:07 > 2:21:13migrant workers. Hospitality, tourism, care work to name a few.
2:21:13 > 2:21:19We've just gone to a winter crisis. The NHS is turning away desperately
2:21:19 > 2:21:24needed staff because Britain has hit the cap on school fees is the third
2:21:24 > 2:21:31month in a row. Cambridge University hospitals said the cab had prevented
2:21:31 > 2:21:38it from recruiting doctors, one specialist in liver surgery. We need
2:21:38 > 2:21:42certainty from many different sectors and a long-term solution to
2:21:42 > 2:21:49Labour shortages in the UK's most important industry. Labour would not
2:21:49 > 2:21:53let British fans go under because of meeting immigration targets, we will
2:21:53 > 2:21:57put jobs and prosperity first. Labour supports fair rules and
2:21:57 > 2:22:01reasonable management of migration. We will design our immigration
2:22:01 > 2:22:05policy based on the needs of the economy. We will not do what this
2:22:05 > 2:22:09government is doing and saying this is our immigration policy and then
2:22:09 > 2:22:20work out what that means the economy afterwards. Thank you.Thank you,
2:22:20 > 2:22:23ceilidhs, I would like to congratulate my honourable friend
2:22:23 > 2:22:27from Angus for this debate and I pay tribute to the eloquent way in which
2:22:27 > 2:22:31she made her points. I have no doubt that her constituents have an
2:22:31 > 2:22:35extremely effective representative in this House. I am also grateful
2:22:35 > 2:22:38for all the other speeches we have heard this afternoon. There has been
2:22:38 > 2:22:42a great deal of consensus which the honourable member opposite is right
2:22:42 > 2:22:45to point out. We have had well-informed contributions although
2:22:45 > 2:22:49I felt early on that I should perhaps have had lunch first, given
2:22:49 > 2:23:01the wide variety of bodies with and about.
2:23:01 > 2:23:05This Government places great value on food and farming industries, we
2:23:05 > 2:23:10recognise them as crucial to the fabric of rural Britain. When I say
2:23:10 > 2:23:14I speak voters are representative of the Government but also in a
2:23:14 > 2:23:20personal capacity, the constituency I represent covers 162 square miles.
2:23:20 > 2:23:25I would like to reassure the honourable member for the SNP who
2:23:25 > 2:23:30yelled I needed to get out in the fields, I certainly do there but I
2:23:30 > 2:23:34was astonished he had been in the House when the source scheme was
2:23:34 > 2:23:41originally introduced because that happened in 1945. He is clearly
2:23:41 > 2:23:45ageing extremely well. My constituency is smaller than that of
2:23:45 > 2:23:51Angus but still has rural areas so I'm well aware of the role the
2:23:51 > 2:23:54farming community play. To say nothing of the vital role they
2:23:54 > 2:23:59perform in putting food on our plates. As honourable members know,
2:23:59 > 2:24:03the Government this week published health and harmony, the future for
2:24:03 > 2:24:08food, farming and the environment in a green Brexit. I'm delighted to
2:24:08 > 2:24:16have my honourable friend from the Defra department here and he will
2:24:16 > 2:24:20concur with me we want to see a more dynamic and self-reliant
2:24:20 > 2:24:23agricultural industry as we continue to compete internationally,
2:24:23 > 2:24:28supplying products of the highest quality to the domestic market and
2:24:28 > 2:24:33increasing our exports. Alongside this we want a reformed agriculture
2:24:33 > 2:24:38and land management policy to deliver a better and richer
2:24:38 > 2:24:43environment in our country. There is a huge opportunity for UK
2:24:43 > 2:24:46agriculture to improve its competitiveness, developing the next
2:24:46 > 2:24:50generation of food and farming technology. I would like to reassure
2:24:50 > 2:24:53members their comments about automation in soft fruit picking
2:24:53 > 2:24:58have not fallen on what ears this afternoon but I'm very conscious
2:24:58 > 2:25:03there are huge parts of the sector which are reliant on arduous, manual
2:25:03 > 2:25:08labour. We want to attract more of our graduates and domestic workforce
2:25:08 > 2:25:12into this vibrant industry. Importantly the white paper
2:25:12 > 2:25:17addresses the issue of apprenticeships. We will create more
2:25:17 > 2:25:20apprenticeships, widen participation and create progression for
2:25:20 > 2:25:27apprenticeships. Our reforms will help meet the needs of employers by
2:25:27 > 2:25:32putting them in control to develop their workforce now and in the
2:25:32 > 2:25:41future and that was the message we heard from across the House. Many
2:25:41 > 2:25:44members talked about the need to make the sector more attractive to
2:25:44 > 2:25:50work in. I would like to talk specifically about the UK's exit
2:25:50 > 2:25:54from the European Union and the issues that brings in relation to
2:25:54 > 2:25:59the workforce. The Government has been clear our first priority was to
2:25:59 > 2:26:03safeguard the position of the EU citizens already in the UK and the
2:26:03 > 2:26:09British citizens living in Europe. The practical consequence is all EU
2:26:09 > 2:26:16citizens currently working in the UK can stay and settle in the UK if
2:26:16 > 2:26:21they so choose. Turning to the period immediately after the UK's
2:26:21 > 2:26:25exit, the Prime Minister was clear in her speech in Florence last year
2:26:25 > 2:26:30that it's our intention for the period of around two years after we
2:26:30 > 2:26:34leave EU citizens will still be able to come and go and work in any
2:26:34 > 2:26:39capacity with a registration system so there will be no cliff edge for
2:26:39 > 2:26:43employers. Only yesterday we set out the rules for those that will arrive
2:26:43 > 2:26:47during the implementation period so individuals planning to live, study
2:26:47 > 2:26:54or work in the UK after March 2000 19th will know the arrangements.
2:26:54 > 2:27:09It's critical to business that those arriving during the implementation
2:27:09 > 2:27:16period will know what to do if they want to stay long term. Our offer is
2:27:16 > 2:27:20the citizens who arrive during the implementation period will be
2:27:20 > 2:27:24eligible after five years to apply for indefinite leave to remain which
2:27:24 > 2:27:32I know is an issue raised earlier. For the time being, the UK remains a
2:27:32 > 2:27:36member of the European Union, with all the rights and obligations of
2:27:36 > 2:27:41membership entails, and employers in the agriculture and food processing
2:27:41 > 2:27:46sectors are free to recruit EU workers to meet their labour needs.
2:27:46 > 2:27:50This debate is timely in that it follows the publication last week by
2:27:50 > 2:27:55the ONS of important sets of numbers. The net migration
2:27:55 > 2:28:00statistics show the rate of net migration has slowed but are still
2:28:00 > 2:28:08positive. The figures indicated that in the event in 2017 there on 90,000
2:28:08 > 2:28:15more EU citizens in the UK than a year earlier. In the period October
2:28:15 > 2:28:21to December 2017 there were 100,000 more EU citizens in the UK labour
2:28:21 > 2:28:26force than a year earlier. I do of course appreciate there is a
2:28:26 > 2:28:29difference between established workers and seasonal workers of the
2:28:29 > 2:28:34kind who predominate in agriculture but it's important we recognise
2:28:34 > 2:28:39there are many EU citizens in the UK and more than there were at the time
2:28:39 > 2:28:45of the referendum. In 2013 in the last seasonal agricultural workers
2:28:45 > 2:28:55scheme was abolished, on the independent advice of the... Sorry,
2:28:55 > 2:28:59we know since then the agricultural sector has been working hard to
2:28:59 > 2:29:02recruit the labour it requires. The honourable members from Stratford
2:29:02 > 2:29:09and answers mentioned are really important aspect about the treatment
2:29:09 > 2:29:13and condition of workers who come over to this country and it is
2:29:13 > 2:29:17important we continually have an eye to modern slavery, that will look at
2:29:17 > 2:29:20the conditions in which people are living, and that they are paid the
2:29:20 > 2:29:25minimum wage, an important part of the review we did with Matthew
2:29:25 > 2:29:30Taylor where he emphasised the need to make sure employees had good
2:29:30 > 2:29:34conditions and pay slips. That remains a priority for the Home
2:29:34 > 2:29:38Office. We recognise the concerns that have been made across the House
2:29:38 > 2:29:43about labour shortages, that's one of the reasons we have conditioned a
2:29:43 > 2:29:49review of the labour market's reliance on EU labour. I know it has
2:29:49 > 2:30:00received many submissions, including from Defra and they will weigh
2:30:00 > 2:30:07heavily on deliberations. My door is open, and officials regularly meet
2:30:07 > 2:30:11people from all sectors of the economy, from business and academia.
2:30:11 > 2:30:17I'm not going to take any interventions. I can also assure
2:30:17 > 2:30:22honourable members we do of course keep the situation under constant
2:30:22 > 2:30:26review, referring specifically to a seasonal agricultural workers
2:30:26 > 2:30:32scheme. My right honourable friend made that point very clearly when he
2:30:32 > 2:30:34addressed the National Farmers' Union conference last week and that
2:30:34 > 2:30:40applies equally to all sectors of the economy. Because we have heard a
2:30:40 > 2:30:44little this afternoon about tourism and other sectors who might also be
2:30:44 > 2:30:47affected. This Government is determined to get the best deal for
2:30:47 > 2:30:53the UK in our negotiations to leave the EU, including for world
2:30:53 > 2:30:59leading... No, I'm sorry I will not give way. Including for our world
2:30:59 > 2:31:02leading food and farming industry. In the meantime we will continue to
2:31:02 > 2:31:07support the industry to work with them and to review the situation
2:31:07 > 2:31:11going forward. I would like the industry to be assured it has
2:31:11 > 2:31:15friends in Government. I look forward to discussing these issues
2:31:15 > 2:31:18again, to keeping the recommendations under close review,
2:31:18 > 2:31:24and I will be appearing shortly before a committee when I'm sure
2:31:24 > 2:31:29this matter will be raised.The honourable gentleman can see the
2:31:29 > 2:31:37Minister does not intend... He knows he cannot make points from a sudden
2:31:37 > 2:31:48-- sub entry position.I also heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, when she asked
2:31:48 > 2:31:56people to keep their contributions short. I will look forward to
2:31:56 > 2:32:00continuing to discuss these matters with colleagues across government
2:32:00 > 2:32:03and making sure the voice of the agricultural sector, which has been
2:32:03 > 2:32:07put forward so effectively by my honourable friend the Member for
2:32:07 > 2:32:13Angus, is continued to be heard. I conclude by thanking all members for
2:32:13 > 2:32:15speaking and particularly to my honourable friend for initiating
2:32:15 > 2:32:25this debate.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The contributions of all
2:32:25 > 2:32:29members on both sides of this chamber and across the country has
2:32:29 > 2:32:35provided a hugely insightful of what I believe a very powerful case for
2:32:35 > 2:32:38our seasonal migrant workforce. The passion demonstrated for our British
2:32:38 > 2:32:43farming industry is palatable and I know there are many others who wish
2:32:43 > 2:32:45to contribute to date but the weather conditions stopped them in
2:32:45 > 2:32:51their tracks. I'm delighted the Minister made positive remarks about
2:32:51 > 2:32:55securing the future of our soft fruit and veg industry with these
2:32:55 > 2:33:00ongoing changing conditions. The arguments in my view are clear, the
2:33:00 > 2:33:03solution is clear, and I will continue to urge the Government to
2:33:03 > 2:33:09continue their work to ensure our farmers are supported and to end
2:33:09 > 2:33:13this unnecessary torturous wait before a system is implemented. We
2:33:13 > 2:33:17desperately need our British produce to be available on our supermarket
2:33:17 > 2:33:22shelves at a price which is affordable and as I said before and
2:33:22 > 2:33:26will say again, I continue this campaign until I get the outcome I
2:33:26 > 2:33:32believe the British farmers and the migrant workers deserve, both for
2:33:32 > 2:33:38Angus and the whole of our UK.The question is as on the order paper.
2:33:38 > 2:33:45As many of that opinion