16/03/2018

0:00:21 > 0:00:30Order, order. The motion is that this house to sit in private, As

0:00:30 > 0:00:35many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

0:00:35 > 0:00:52ayes have it -- decision, clear the lobby.

0:02:32 > 0:02:38The motion is that this house do sit in private. As many as are of the

0:02:38 > 0:02:54opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. Tellers for the ayes...

0:15:42 > 0:15:45Please investigate the delay in the aye lobby, which I have reason to

0:15:45 > 0:15:51believe is not heavily populated.

0:16:11 > 0:16:32Order, order.The ayes to the left, one. The noes to the right, 114the

0:16:32 > 0:16:40ayes to the left, one. The noes to the right, 114. So the Noes have it.

0:16:40 > 0:16:48We will now proceed to read the orders of the day.Unpaid Trial Work

0:16:48 > 0:16:58Periods (Prohibition) Bill, second reading.Mr and spend and McNeill.I

0:16:58 > 0:17:05beg that the aye Bill now be read for a second time. I found out from

0:17:05 > 0:17:11the House of Commons rivalling Philipp library the other day that

0:17:11 > 0:17:17there is a shortage of welders in the UK. Please bear with me. I met

0:17:17 > 0:17:24an apprentice welder at the other day, a 19-year-old who lives in

0:17:24 > 0:17:28Canterbury Kent. A beautiful historic town is Canterbury, I once

0:17:28 > 0:17:32visited it and can attest to that. This will then apprentice is doing

0:17:32 > 0:17:36very well in college, and spends a day every week in Dover with a

0:17:36 > 0:17:44welding company. He is a focused young man, he is motivated, he is

0:17:44 > 0:17:47certainly looking forward to the future. He is an asset to the

0:17:47 > 0:17:54community, and an asset to his neighbours, a burden on the body. He

0:17:54 > 0:17:58has also multilingual, he speaks four languages very efficiently. I

0:17:58 > 0:18:13am not sure that is normal for welders. I know at several welders

0:18:13 > 0:18:17who can speak of least two language is. He has got a great future ahead

0:18:17 > 0:18:24of him, especially for the average age of welders in the UK being 55.

0:18:24 > 0:18:31We have a chronic shortage of skills in the UK, particularly in welding.

0:18:31 > 0:18:34This young man is a fascinating back story. His journey to Canterbury was

0:18:34 > 0:18:42a long one. He was previously a refugee, having escaped Eritrea at

0:18:42 > 0:18:48the age of 16 to avoid conscription and the brutal military, and moved

0:18:48 > 0:18:54through the Sahara, a fortnight in a lorry and a fortnight in a pick-up

0:18:54 > 0:19:02truck to Tripoli in Libya. He told me that if anybody filled out --

0:19:02 > 0:19:06fell out of the pick-up truck, you would have been left behind, and to

0:19:06 > 0:19:14be left behind Anisa have a desert, the prognosis would not be great. He

0:19:14 > 0:19:18mentioned that some bad things happened to girls, and I will leave

0:19:18 > 0:19:27that they are. From Tripoli, he boarded a boat. The former Glenwood

0:19:27 > 0:19:36is he speaks, one is English, and is also fluent in Arabic, Aramaic and

0:19:36 > 0:19:40his native tongue. They sailed two days from Libya before being picked

0:19:40 > 0:19:49up by a bigger boat, and Italian navy ship which took them happily to

0:19:49 > 0:19:56Italy. He has also picked up two words of another language. Everybody

0:19:56 > 0:20:01was very happy when they arrived in Italy after crossing the Sahara and

0:20:01 > 0:20:04the Mediterranean, they were taken to a reception centre and given

0:20:04 > 0:20:10plenty of food. That was at least the first part of his journey. From

0:20:10 > 0:20:13the reception centre, he then travelled to Rome, and spent two

0:20:13 > 0:20:22weeks living at a railway station, before moving through France to the

0:20:22 > 0:20:27famous Calais Jungle. He lived there with other Eritreans for a while. He

0:20:27 > 0:20:29told me that there could be tensions between different groups and the

0:20:29 > 0:20:36Jungle. Obviously people would be stressed in that situation.Thank

0:20:36 > 0:20:42you for the story about the remarkable young man. It amazed me

0:20:42 > 0:20:46of a young woman I worked with nearly a decade ago who was

0:20:46 > 0:20:49separated from her mother on her journey here, and his mother sadly

0:20:49 > 0:20:53died before she could see her again. Does he agree with me that these

0:20:53 > 0:20:59incredible young people deserve so much better than these avoidable

0:20:59 > 0:21:02rules that caused so much human misery, and would he urge other

0:21:02 > 0:21:06members of the House when they think about how they are going to vote

0:21:06 > 0:21:10today, to think about those young people and do the right thing?I

0:21:10 > 0:21:14thank the Honourable lady for her intervention. She's simply sums up

0:21:14 > 0:21:21what I have put together in a rather large speech. -- succinctly sums up.

0:21:21 > 0:21:25I expect a number of members will want to make interventions, which is

0:21:25 > 0:21:29welcome, because points like that are welcome. Eventually, he made it

0:21:29 > 0:21:34across the English Channel, in the back of a refrigerated lorry. Things

0:21:34 > 0:21:38were fine until somebody switched off the exaggeration system, and

0:21:38 > 0:21:47being in an unsolicited tight space for 24 people got very hot.

0:21:47 > 0:21:51Eventually, one of them contacted the emergency services. They were

0:21:51 > 0:21:55located by the GPS system on the mobile phone. In December 2016, they

0:21:55 > 0:22:03made the news. Luckily, none of them were in any way badly injured or

0:22:03 > 0:22:07medically affected by that experience. They were then taken to

0:22:07 > 0:22:11a reception centre in Kent. Before he found his way to Canterbury,

0:22:11 > 0:22:15where he lived in communal accommodation with other refugees.

0:22:15 > 0:22:18Over time in Canterbury, some people volunteered to help with the

0:22:18 > 0:22:24refugees at a refugee charity there, and they got to know him. He now

0:22:24 > 0:22:27lives with one of them. It seems that Canterbury is quite the place,

0:22:27 > 0:22:33it is not the stereotype that is given by many in the newspapers of

0:22:33 > 0:22:37people struggling and complaining about migrants and refugees. In

0:22:37 > 0:22:40Canterbury, people seem to be very welcoming. There is a big Eritreans

0:22:40 > 0:22:45community encountered very, which is where he has gravitated to, and

0:22:45 > 0:22:52Canterbury can really be quite proud of the way it has treated.My

0:22:52 > 0:22:56honourable friend makes an exceptionally powerful and

0:22:56 > 0:23:00compelling speech. Does he agree with me that his friend is one in a

0:23:00 > 0:23:05long line of refugees from places like Germany, Hungary, Iraq, who

0:23:05 > 0:23:08have made a significant economic contribution and other conservation

0:23:08 > 0:23:14is to society across the UK? Absolutely correct, and

0:23:14 > 0:23:18unfortunately some people look at this as being pounds, shillings and

0:23:18 > 0:23:23pence. We should certainly look at the humanity first. Was 19 and has

0:23:23 > 0:23:28viable ambition, he will certainly achieve a lot more than he has so

0:23:28 > 0:23:36far.Is it not the case that we need to focus on our humanity? I

0:23:36 > 0:23:40presented a petition from two of my primary schools where they had done

0:23:40 > 0:23:46a project putting themselves in the position of child refugees. They

0:23:46 > 0:23:49have drawn little suitcases with what they would take, what was most

0:23:49 > 0:23:53precious to them, and the thing that struck me was that in every suitcase

0:23:53 > 0:23:57was a photograph of their family. We should be doing the same as them,

0:23:57 > 0:24:01and if we are a bit too old to imagine ourselves as children, can

0:24:01 > 0:24:07we imagine the help and support we wish others would give our children

0:24:07 > 0:24:12in these circumstances?Again, the honourable lady makes a very

0:24:12 > 0:24:18compelling point. If we look back at our own histories, my own background

0:24:18 > 0:24:22is how one Scottish and Ireland, and certainly the last century, my

0:24:22 > 0:24:28people have been in need of help when it moved across areas of the

0:24:28 > 0:24:33world. I think the people of Canterbury can hold their heads up

0:24:33 > 0:24:42high.I just want to thank information in my constituency --

0:24:42 > 0:24:48thank information in my fantastic constituency.She is very welcome,

0:24:48 > 0:24:50and can intervene on any further mention of Canterbury as she

0:24:50 > 0:24:57chooses. I was also given a blog from one corner of the United

0:24:57 > 0:25:03Kingdom, and this is the experience of refugees in not just the United

0:25:03 > 0:25:09Kingdom but other places, when you get beyond the headlines and down to

0:25:09 > 0:25:14people are, as the honourable lady from Central Ayrshire side, it comes

0:25:14 > 0:25:29to common humanity. In my own constituency...I am thankful for

0:25:29 > 0:25:31him given me. I would like to congratulate him not only on this

0:25:31 > 0:25:37Bill but also his powerful speech. The agree with me that the keyword

0:25:37 > 0:25:42is refugee, and that people forget what and who a refugee is? It is

0:25:42 > 0:25:46somebody fleeing a place they love, their home, they do not want to

0:25:46 > 0:25:51leave, but circumstances that we cannot even begin to imagine mean

0:25:51 > 0:25:54that they literally grasped the first things that come to hand, and

0:25:54 > 0:26:01they flee their home, looking for a place of refuge.The honourable lady

0:26:01 > 0:26:05is correct, and I will later quote from one of our colleagues, the

0:26:05 > 0:26:08member from Dundee West in the debate on the 22nd of February,

0:26:08 > 0:26:13which he says that the point of being a refugee should be

0:26:13 > 0:26:15remembered, why people are travelling in that situation. I

0:26:15 > 0:26:21thank her for her support on the Bill, and also her colleague from

0:26:21 > 0:26:23Bromley and Chislehurst, sitting alongside my distant cousin, I

0:26:23 > 0:26:42think. I will leave that, I do not want to want in any more trouble!

0:26:42 > 0:26:46Following what the right honourable lady said opposite, that if the

0:26:46 > 0:26:51Government today said that this bill was wrong because it would act as a

0:26:51 > 0:26:57pool factor, is it not true that it is a push factor. People are fleeing

0:26:57 > 0:27:01appalling conditions, and if we hear from the Treasury banks the idea

0:27:01 > 0:27:06that this bill would create a pool factor, I think that we should vote

0:27:06 > 0:27:10against the Government just on that reason alone. We need to support

0:27:10 > 0:27:15these people who are fleeing appalling conditions.The honourable

0:27:15 > 0:27:18gentleman is absolutely right, the blog that I have seen under the name

0:27:18 > 0:27:27of the Government,... Hopefully the Government will think again over the

0:27:27 > 0:27:35worst they have chosen, because I think that the member for Central

0:27:35 > 0:27:40Ayrshire...I thank the honourable member for giving way, and may I

0:27:40 > 0:27:43congratulate him on bringing this important bill forward. Would he

0:27:43 > 0:27:47agree that worse governments are often constrained because they think

0:27:47 > 0:27:52that the public are hostile to reunions and immigrants, the reality

0:27:52 > 0:27:56is that once the public know the details, of the circumstances in

0:27:56 > 0:28:00which the individuals concerned are fleeing, then they are in fact a

0:28:00 > 0:28:05very positive about this, the run many examples of this in Liverpool,

0:28:05 > 0:28:08when there have been threats at times to remove people, the public

0:28:08 > 0:28:15have rallied round those refugees.I thank the honourable lady for a

0:28:15 > 0:28:18stellar point, that is correct. We know that from our own experience in

0:28:18 > 0:28:22here. When we start understanding, we changed our minds about things,

0:28:22 > 0:28:29and other people do the same.Can I congratulate my fellow island MP for

0:28:29 > 0:28:34bringing this bill forward. The important point that he made, and

0:28:34 > 0:28:38used a very powerful word, motivation. Those of us that have

0:28:38 > 0:28:42seen refugees either in camps, or in processing, without families, UCB

0:28:42 > 0:28:48loneliness at .net this is, but when you see them together -- you see the

0:28:48 > 0:28:57loneliness at that -based is -- etched on their faces.When I was

0:28:57 > 0:29:02listening to the story on Wednesday, then, I was uncertain in my mind

0:29:02 > 0:29:05that I wouldn't have had the motivation at my age or any other

0:29:05 > 0:29:10age to go over the Sahara for four weeks into Mac different transport,

0:29:10 > 0:29:19and then to go into Mac different boats. I can recall the first time I

0:29:19 > 0:29:26was on about. It certainly wasn't it doesn't experience. -- a pleasant

0:29:26 > 0:29:38experience.I am grateful for giving way, and there is evidence that

0:29:38 > 0:29:47diasporas in all parts of countries and chambers, but every member of

0:29:47 > 0:29:52this house has had the fortune to go to and institution of high

0:29:52 > 0:30:05education. Most of our lives have been enriched by academics who

0:30:05 > 0:30:11arrived as refugees, either from the Nazis or elsewhere, but we have all

0:30:11 > 0:30:14benefited directly or indirectly.My honourable cousin makes a fantastic

0:30:14 > 0:30:19point, and it goes to show that we have to see this in

0:30:19 > 0:30:24multi-dimensions, because seeing somebody as just a refugee in here

0:30:24 > 0:30:34and now, not as an academic or a welder leaves us in a narrow path.

0:30:34 > 0:30:37May I congratulate my honourable friend, who mentioned the correction

0:30:37 > 0:30:43between his own constituency -- connection between his own

0:30:43 > 0:30:48constituency and that in Ireland. There are lessons to be learned well

0:30:48 > 0:30:53over the last two and a half years we have accepted 40 refugees are

0:30:53 > 0:30:57families who are adding to the diversity and the economy and the

0:30:57 > 0:31:02long-term sustainability of the entire UK. This is a positive thing,

0:31:02 > 0:31:06and members opposite should vote for it.I absolutely agree, and I would

0:31:06 > 0:31:12like to say that mention of Canterbury by the SNP is by no way a

0:31:12 > 0:31:21politically aggressive move.As further two points that have been

0:31:21 > 0:31:25made elsewhere this morning, about the fact that it has widespread

0:31:25 > 0:31:29support throughout our communities, and would he join me in

0:31:29 > 0:31:33congratulating the inspirational young people of the rights

0:31:33 > 0:31:38respecting group of Hermitage Academy in Helensburgh who have been

0:31:38 > 0:31:40campaigning on and gathering petitions on this issue for months

0:31:40 > 0:31:44now, and there is edition numbers 1100 people in their towns of

0:31:44 > 0:31:49Helensburgh, and when major liver that petition to Parliament as they

0:31:49 > 0:31:53will do soon, if possible, will he join me and meet the inspirational

0:31:53 > 0:31:58young group and welcome them to this place.I would be very glad...

0:31:58 > 0:32:02Privileged in fact to meet the young people of Hermitage Academy, because

0:32:02 > 0:32:09I think that the steps and they thinking that they have done... My

0:32:09 > 0:32:14final mention of Canterbury, just to say that Johannes is getting on well

0:32:14 > 0:32:17with life in Canterbury, he has got a good group of friends there, he

0:32:17 > 0:32:23supports Manchester United, and I shall leave that what it is.

0:32:23 > 0:32:25LAUGHTER If I could make some progress and I

0:32:25 > 0:32:35would give way. Moving from Canterbury to somewhere with an

0:32:35 > 0:32:40easier pronunciation, to my constituency, we have a good fortune

0:32:40 > 0:32:43to have a young man that he was 17 who has written a blog that has come

0:32:43 > 0:32:49to my attention. I think it is worth reading out and giving boys, because

0:32:49 > 0:32:54he is reading in a different forum. "From The time when I was told I was

0:32:54 > 0:32:56to travel to Stornoway, the first thing that into my mind was, where

0:32:56 > 0:33:01is that? It is in Scotland. All I know about Scotland is that it is a

0:33:01 > 0:33:07part of the UK, and it is cold there. I didn't even think that

0:33:07 > 0:33:11Stornoway was on an island in the middle of the athletic. Loads of

0:33:11 > 0:33:15things that are coming to me, bad ideas, how would people be there?

0:33:15 > 0:33:21How would the people look like? For me, it was then unknown place. I was

0:33:21 > 0:33:25worried about the language. I would he have some England, -- English,

0:33:25 > 0:33:29and I could improve by practising. The most important thing that I was

0:33:29 > 0:33:33the key about is how that people would deal with my family,

0:33:33 > 0:33:37specifically the women in my family who wear the hijab, and it is

0:33:37 > 0:33:41something safer the people where I am going to. What I thought about

0:33:41 > 0:33:45here is that everybody is looking after themselves, nobody cares about

0:33:45 > 0:33:49the rest, I was completely wrong. Now I have got to say sorry for how

0:33:49 > 0:34:02I was thinking about them. The thing that surprises me most,

0:34:09 > 0:34:12is the charity shops, event and even a small shops, there is at least one

0:34:12 > 0:34:15charity box. Volunteers, people here deal with volunteering as part of

0:34:15 > 0:34:18their duties, for a while I thought that they got paid for that, but all

0:34:18 > 0:34:21I know, it is a priority for them. I ask myself, how do they do this, the

0:34:21 > 0:34:24answer is that they feel for each other, they love to do this, and

0:34:24 > 0:34:27they love to say thank you. In general, I like it here, it is a

0:34:27 > 0:34:30island in the middle of the sea, but you feel the life here. You can be

0:34:30 > 0:34:33like anybody here. What can you do more than an old man asking you

0:34:33 > 0:34:35where you are from and after you answer, he starts telling you, you

0:34:35 > 0:34:38are very welcome in my city, we are sorry about what is happening there.

0:34:38 > 0:34:42What can I do for you? Please ask for help when you need it.

0:34:42 > 0:34:48Unfortunately, I didn't realise that, but humanity first,... " we

0:34:48 > 0:34:53have seen that from Canterbury, we have seen that from a number of

0:34:53 > 0:34:58places.I thank my honourable friend for giving way, I commend him for

0:34:58 > 0:35:04bringing this bill today has. I am incredibly proud that I have been

0:35:04 > 0:35:11able to welcome a number of refugee families from Syria, but in my --

0:35:11 > 0:35:13can my honourable friend provides reassurance to some of those who

0:35:13 > 0:35:18have had to feed violence from some close family members, that his bill

0:35:18 > 0:35:21will not have an impact on their safety?Absolutely not, because this

0:35:21 > 0:35:26bill is enabling averages here to sponsor the... They will be choosing

0:35:26 > 0:35:35who will...I am grateful to the honourable member for giving way.

0:35:35 > 0:35:40This brought the member of -- element of humanity into this. I

0:35:40 > 0:35:47know that certainly listening to the words of his constituent, and how he

0:35:47 > 0:35:50felt in anticipation of his first visit to Stornoway, I have got to

0:35:50 > 0:35:54say, the first time I went to Stornoway, I felt much the same.

0:35:54 > 0:35:56But, for the most part my misgivings were ill founded.

0:35:56 > 0:36:03LAUGHTER I think, the significance of the

0:36:03 > 0:36:08stories that we were hearing, and I have similar expresses from my own

0:36:08 > 0:36:14consistency, should surelygive some succour to those who are thinking

0:36:14 > 0:36:19about supporting this bill, but are concerned about how it will be

0:36:19 > 0:36:25scene. Clearly the message is that there is a positive political

0:36:25 > 0:36:29advantage to supporting this bill. Nobody should be afraid of it.

0:36:29 > 0:36:33Absolutely correct. I hope that we see the honourable member at

0:36:33 > 0:36:41Stornoway later.Emburey grateful to the honourable gentleman and can I

0:36:41 > 0:36:52congratulate him. Will you join with me and congratulate... Largest

0:36:52 > 0:36:59refugees by a country mile in our country.Very pleased to thank that

0:36:59 > 0:37:02council and congratulated. And it brings me onto Aberdeenshire Council

0:37:02 > 0:37:05that I was going to mention, as well. Apparently there are a of

0:37:05 > 0:37:10Syrians watching the debate in Aberdeenshire, today. They are

0:37:10 > 0:37:14watching it I am told on Facebook with their hearts in their mouths.

0:37:14 > 0:37:23Aberdeenshire Council needs to be congratulated. Thank you to the Tory

0:37:23 > 0:37:26councillors of Aberdeenshire Council, and the Labour councillors

0:37:26 > 0:37:29of Aberdeenshire Council, the Liberals, Greens, independent and

0:37:29 > 0:37:34the SNP councillors of Aberdeenshire Council, and they have all united

0:37:34 > 0:37:37today to support this bill. The thing about this bill is that it

0:37:37 > 0:37:41could have been introduced by any member in this house. It is a bill

0:37:41 > 0:37:46that is conceived by a partnership of good Samaritan organisations, the

0:37:46 > 0:37:50British Red Cross, Oxfam, the refugee Council, the UNHCR, and

0:37:50 > 0:37:56amnesty to name but some. This bill has the support of MPs from seven

0:37:56 > 0:38:04political parties. Conservatives, labour, SNP, DUP, liberal, green. --

0:38:04 > 0:38:12and paid country. This shouldn't be a bill of party politics. This is

0:38:12 > 0:38:17not a bill about red, blue, yellow, it is about compassion and at the

0:38:17 > 0:38:25honourable member for Orkney and Shetland said just a few minute ago,

0:38:25 > 0:38:38humanity.Can I say that this debate comes 46 years after my wife and I

0:38:38 > 0:38:43took a family into our house, and we just had a get-together. What I have

0:38:43 > 0:38:47not heard from him, or the good Samaritan organisations, is what

0:38:47 > 0:38:50numbers of people would be eligible under this bill, who are not already

0:38:50 > 0:38:57eligible.The honourable member asked a good question, and from the

0:38:57 > 0:39:02information that I have directly, a number of years ago, it would have

0:39:02 > 0:39:06been about 400, but it is probably 800 to 1000 at the moment you would

0:39:06 > 0:39:12be helped. It is not a huge number, but I thank him and commend him for

0:39:12 > 0:39:16what he has done with refugees in the past, and he sees the benefit of

0:39:16 > 0:39:21that today in his own personal life, and there are a number of examples

0:39:21 > 0:39:26of that. Indeed, this bill has taken the UK into line with the rest of

0:39:26 > 0:39:33Europe. It has only brought it in line. If I have only criticisms, my

0:39:33 > 0:39:37bill is so small and unspectacular. So I'm spectacular that we should

0:39:37 > 0:39:43have no pub at all and passing this bill. You would have to have a very

0:39:43 > 0:39:49hard heart not to ensure these very limited measures I ask for, today,

0:39:49 > 0:39:53do not become law. Can I say how grateful I am for the support of

0:39:53 > 0:39:56people have done well in their lives, but yet have made it their

0:39:56 > 0:40:00concern and business to use their position to help the least well off

0:40:00 > 0:40:05in the world. Some of these are celebrities are actors and

0:40:05 > 0:40:07actresses, pop stars who have used their position to highlight the bill

0:40:07 > 0:40:15and give it their time, very freely indeed.Thank you for giving way,

0:40:15 > 0:40:18and May I congratulate him on the powerful speech that he has making,

0:40:18 > 0:40:24and the amount of support he has gathered. In my Livingston

0:40:24 > 0:40:27constituency, people have come and made their home, set up a business

0:40:27 > 0:40:33battery claims leather sofas into shoes and bags, and is now

0:40:33 > 0:40:38supporting and employing to disabled people in the West Lothian and

0:40:38 > 0:40:42Livingston area. That is exactly the kind of people that we want to

0:40:42 > 0:40:46welcome into our community, who come and make the fabric of our society

0:40:46 > 0:40:50richer.Absolutely. And it is a lost of the host countries as they have

0:40:50 > 0:40:56had -- it is the loss of the host countries that have had to -- that

0:40:56 > 0:40:59they have had to flee. It is mostly decent members of the public who

0:40:59 > 0:41:04have been writing, you can conceive of the enormity of refugees, of

0:41:04 > 0:41:08people fleeing to safety have had to go through, and they're in their

0:41:08 > 0:41:12droves have been very supportive. Often, as members of Parliament, we

0:41:12 > 0:41:15have got to see the issues that it requires to put us in their shoes,

0:41:15 > 0:41:19of physics this is quite dissimilar to our own. That but our abilities

0:41:19 > 0:41:29to emphasise at great -- empathised at great stretch. How can we begin

0:41:29 > 0:41:37to know what it is like to be a refugee who has fled from Syria,

0:41:37 > 0:41:43crossed seas, and then faced a gruelling adversarial asylum system?

0:41:43 > 0:41:48How can we feel what it is like to be a 17-year-old in Eritrea, who had

0:41:48 > 0:41:51escaped because he did not want to be murdered like his brother because

0:41:51 > 0:41:55he did not want to be forcibly conscripted indefinite and into the

0:41:55 > 0:41:59army. I'd don't know, and I don't want to know, and I don't want many

0:41:59 > 0:42:05other people to know about this in future.

0:42:06 > 0:42:10If you to support the honourable member's Bill wholeheartedly. Many

0:42:10 > 0:42:18of my constituents in Cardiff Central, have written to me from all

0:42:18 > 0:42:21persuasions backing this. I do not have any concerns about the spill,

0:42:21 > 0:42:26and I hope that of any members do, the ball with those until committee

0:42:26 > 0:42:29stage and passes Bill today.I think the honourable lady makes a

0:42:29 > 0:42:33fantastic point, because it is to the committee stage that people

0:42:33 > 0:42:38should take their concerns. The concerns will be minor, and if they

0:42:38 > 0:42:44are in any way Major, they can be addressed properly at Amity stage.I

0:42:44 > 0:42:50thank the honourable member for giving way, he is making many valid

0:42:50 > 0:42:53points and I have been lobbied on this Bill by constituents like other

0:42:53 > 0:42:59members in this House, but both in favour and against. I think it is in

0:42:59 > 0:43:03bonds to keep the right tone, and accusing people of having an empathy

0:43:03 > 0:43:06bypass because they have a different belief of the best way of helping

0:43:06 > 0:43:13people is something we can probably avoid in this debate.Let's hope we

0:43:13 > 0:43:18see that and goal coming to fruition, and I look forward to

0:43:18 > 0:43:20seeing the honourable gentleman with others in the lobbies at some stage

0:43:20 > 0:43:26today. There can indeed be many ways of approaching things, and all

0:43:26 > 0:43:30others need to learn a bit more about the subjects in all manner

0:43:30 > 0:43:36around this. But certainly I think it is very difficult to be arguing

0:43:36 > 0:43:40against enabling people to read a refugee camp to join family and

0:43:40 > 0:43:47relatives.Can I firstly just congratulate you for bringing this

0:43:47 > 0:43:51Bill? Would he agree with me that, as one of the wealthiest countries,

0:43:51 > 0:43:56we have the capacity to support these people who are in desperate

0:43:56 > 0:44:01need, and what we actually like it is maybe the political will? This

0:44:01 > 0:44:05was demonstrated so well by my predecessor, who secured the

0:44:05 > 0:44:09amendment which forced the Government to actually allow 3000

0:44:09 > 0:44:14unaccompanied child refugees. Absolutely, the honourable lady is

0:44:14 > 0:44:20correct. We sometimes have a limited thinking, 3000 people seems like it

0:44:20 > 0:44:25a lot. If they were all in my front room, what would that mean? But in a

0:44:25 > 0:44:29country of 65 million people, it is a drop in the ocean. Given the skill

0:44:29 > 0:44:33shortages we have in some people we could be taking in, it is actually a

0:44:33 > 0:44:38narrow interests to do exactly this, especially in the Reed at a time and

0:44:38 > 0:44:42are more refugees in the world at any time since the Second World War.

0:44:42 > 0:44:47How could become behind their lives, their stories, their tragedies, and

0:44:47 > 0:44:51make sense collectively of all those statistics? It is hard to fathom

0:44:51 > 0:44:56when we start to think of numbers. But today's Bill is not about

0:44:56 > 0:45:01refugees or immigration, and anyway it is not about the war in Syria or

0:45:01 > 0:45:04human rights abuses in Eritrea. First and foremost, this Bill is

0:45:04 > 0:45:12about family. It is something each others will recognise, it is the

0:45:12 > 0:45:14photograph in the suitcase the children thought they would want to

0:45:14 > 0:45:18bring with them if they were refugees. That no matter how much

0:45:18 > 0:45:22families argue and disagree with one another, families belong together,

0:45:22 > 0:45:26and they certainly should not be in a situation where they are forced

0:45:26 > 0:45:30apart. This is not an immigration issue, it is a protection issue, as

0:45:30 > 0:45:33the member of Dundee West said in a debate on Westminster Hall on the

0:45:33 > 0:45:3922nd of February.I also congratulate the honourable member

0:45:39 > 0:45:43for bringing this Bill, and I absolutely support it, as I also

0:45:43 > 0:45:49represent a community with many refugees. Would the member not agree

0:45:49 > 0:45:55with me that those of us who have listened over the years to the

0:45:55 > 0:46:03Holocaust memorial events over the years, and heard the stories of the

0:46:03 > 0:46:12now elderly people who came over on Kinder transport and so on, would he

0:46:12 > 0:46:15not agree that those who survived without their families, how

0:46:15 > 0:46:21traumatic that was? And I have also, and I'm sure he has, too, heard the

0:46:21 > 0:46:25stories of those who were able to be connected with their families or

0:46:25 > 0:46:30some family members after the war, and what a difference that made. And

0:46:30 > 0:46:37how can one forget, how can one not to link those two sets of stories?

0:46:37 > 0:46:40The honourable lady is absolutely correct, and if we look back at

0:46:40 > 0:46:46history with the benefit of pounds -- hindsight, wide and we do more?

0:46:46 > 0:46:52There is a bit of nervousness at the moment of doing, but when it is

0:46:52 > 0:46:55done, people are eternally grateful. Not just those who have been saved,

0:46:55 > 0:46:58but those who have done the savings can look themselves in the mirror

0:46:58 > 0:47:02with a lot more pride than they would otherwise be able to do. This

0:47:02 > 0:47:07Bill is about families who have been torn apart by war and who want to be

0:47:07 > 0:47:10reunited, but cannot due to the current rules. It is about families

0:47:10 > 0:47:16facing the decision of whether to stay separated or to undertake

0:47:16 > 0:47:19potentially dangerous journeys across land, Desert and see to be

0:47:19 > 0:47:22together again. Certainly there is nobody who would want the male

0:47:22 > 0:47:26members of their family wanting to be tempted to go with people

0:47:26 > 0:47:35traffickers across the Sahara. I will give way.Does he recognise

0:47:35 > 0:47:38that Unicef report that a majority of young people that are

0:47:38 > 0:47:42unaccompanied child migrants have been subjected to sexual abuse on

0:47:42 > 0:47:46their journey to the UK, and we have an obligation to support those young

0:47:46 > 0:47:50people going through the most appalling times?The honourable

0:47:50 > 0:47:56gentleman is absolutely correct. It is sort of a judgment call as to how

0:47:56 > 0:48:00much we talk about that, because we know it happens but we know that

0:48:00 > 0:48:03many people are watching this debate, for whom it is maybe a bit

0:48:03 > 0:48:09too close to them. But we have got to bear that in mind when we are

0:48:09 > 0:48:13making decisions about refugees as legislators. Currently, adult

0:48:13 > 0:48:16refugees who have been the most is refugees in the UK are able to

0:48:16 > 0:48:22sponsor the -- their spouse or partner as well as children under

0:48:22 > 0:48:25the age of 18 to join them in the UK, and we have to thanks excessive

0:48:25 > 0:48:37Government 's to thank for that. But that is only one side of the coin,

0:48:37 > 0:48:40and those family members are living an extremely dangerous

0:48:40 > 0:48:43circumstances. We are looking to have the other side of the coin

0:48:43 > 0:48:51addressed as well, were under 18 's can bring in an sponsor family

0:48:51 > 0:48:55members and get family members together in both directions. In

0:48:55 > 0:49:00recent weeks, the British Red Cross has helped two Syrian couples

0:49:00 > 0:49:03reunite. Imagine the moment of elation when the loved ones were

0:49:03 > 0:49:07finally reunited in the UK. Just hours before, they had been

0:49:07 > 0:49:11separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of bombs. Refugee family

0:49:11 > 0:49:16reunion is truly a life changing, and that is why so many refugees and

0:49:16 > 0:49:20people who moved to this country like welders and whatever are now

0:49:20 > 0:49:24watching this because it will affect that a change to their lives.I

0:49:24 > 0:49:28wonder if my honourable friend will share my concern that legal aid is

0:49:28 > 0:49:32not available for these cases, and when changes were brought around to

0:49:32 > 0:49:39legal aid, it wasn't a stated there would be more savings. Would the

0:49:39 > 0:49:44half £1 billion there that has been saved possibly help of some of these

0:49:44 > 0:49:51cases?I think the honourable lady makes a good document. I am here and

0:49:51 > 0:49:54there are quite a lot of speakers, and I know I haven't made a lot of

0:49:54 > 0:49:58progress in the last 25 minutes because I have taken a number of

0:49:58 > 0:50:03interventions, so can I appealed to members if they want to intervene to

0:50:03 > 0:50:07do so sparingly? We want to get this to a close at some point today and

0:50:07 > 0:50:16think of other people's business.I might be a long-lost relative from

0:50:16 > 0:50:23Somerset, Mr Speaker. Is it not right that the Lord Chancellor is

0:50:23 > 0:50:26actually undertaking a review of legal aid reforms, that is going to

0:50:26 > 0:50:29include looking at legal aid for immigration cases? Solas Government

0:50:29 > 0:50:34is taking out an bold, this could well be included in that review.I

0:50:34 > 0:50:38think that is great. We know that there is legal aid available already

0:50:38 > 0:50:46in Scotland. And I'm glad to hear the honourable lady's intervention,

0:50:46 > 0:50:50but they are not mutually exquisite approaches. So therefore, she is

0:50:50 > 0:50:54welcoming that she can most certainly welcome the Bill, I will

0:50:54 > 0:50:59personally escorted through the lobbies later on if need be.They

0:50:59 > 0:51:09are's can offer you can't refuse!At the Leave this Bill is moving loved

0:51:09 > 0:51:13ones together. Clause one does justice. It asks that a statement

0:51:13 > 0:51:23changes to immigration rules for both houses, in response to debates

0:51:23 > 0:51:31and family in both places. The Bill acknowledges that, which is why it

0:51:31 > 0:51:35operates in this way. The minister we say that I'm still attempting to

0:51:35 > 0:51:40use primary legislation to amend the rules, because the honourable lady

0:51:40 > 0:51:43will be aware, there is no other way for a non-minister to effect changes

0:51:43 > 0:51:48to those rules. If she would like to intervene and say that the Bill is

0:51:48 > 0:51:56unnecessary, I wouldn't gladly give way to hear that. -- I would. Clause

0:51:56 > 0:51:59one sets out the relationships that would be covered by refugee family

0:51:59 > 0:52:05reunion. It includes those that already have the right, and expand

0:52:05 > 0:52:08that a number of ways. There is a long list I could put in this Bill.

0:52:08 > 0:52:13Right honourable members could have spent the entire debate thinking of

0:52:13 > 0:52:17distant relatives who, if we have been forced to leave our homes and

0:52:17 > 0:52:20communities because of a vicious deadly conflict, we would like to

0:52:20 > 0:52:26think we could bring our relatives with those to safety. But I have

0:52:26 > 0:52:28focused on some of the most egregious that are not covered by

0:52:28 > 0:52:33current rules. Under the current rules, a parent recognise that a

0:52:33 > 0:52:37refugee in the UK can sponsor their children under the age of 18 to join

0:52:37 > 0:52:41them, but of that child has not turned 18, they are not all

0:52:41 > 0:52:46semantically eligible. Mohammed is a former lawyer from Syria, who was

0:52:46 > 0:52:52recognised as a refugee in the UK after applying for asylum. He

0:52:52 > 0:52:55immediately began to apply for a family reunion so that his wife and

0:52:55 > 0:52:59children could live with him and safety in the United Kingdom.

0:52:59 > 0:53:02Devastatingly, the family was forced to leave their two oldest children

0:53:02 > 0:53:07behind because they were operating. He told the British Red Cross they

0:53:07 > 0:53:14are a close family. His little kids ask every day, what happened? Will

0:53:14 > 0:53:20rejoin us? Wenbo we see them's he has no idea and does not know what

0:53:20 > 0:53:24to tell them. The Minister may argue that the Government has recognised

0:53:24 > 0:53:33that children in these circumstances should be eligible, but the point is

0:53:33 > 0:53:36the guide updated in summer 2016 provided clearer direction to the

0:53:36 > 0:53:42Home Office than may fall to be granted Family Reunion in

0:53:42 > 0:53:46exceptional circumstances. Out of that list as children over the age

0:53:46 > 0:53:50of 18 still being dependent on their parents, yet despite those changes,

0:53:50 > 0:53:57last year with Anthony first nine months of 2017, only 49 people were

0:53:57 > 0:54:00granted Family Reunion in exceptional circumstances. My Bill

0:54:00 > 0:54:04seeks to move that group of children into the main body of the rules. If

0:54:04 > 0:54:07the Government accept the principle that these children should be

0:54:07 > 0:54:12eligible to be reunited as they do through the guidance, then I hope

0:54:12 > 0:54:17they will support at least that element of the Bill.I congratulate

0:54:17 > 0:54:20him on the Bill today, I support it wholeheartedly. Vitamins B of a

0:54:20 > 0:54:26story I heard from Oxfam and at a gentleman whose son was left behind

0:54:26 > 0:54:30in Turkey while the tyre family was resettled here in the UK. The sun

0:54:30 > 0:54:34was the main breadwinner of that family. Thus the honourable member

0:54:34 > 0:54:38agree that this is helpful for the families here and helpful for the

0:54:38 > 0:54:45integration of the UK's society if we bring those children home?

0:54:45 > 0:54:49Absolutely, everybody is a winner when this unnecessary bureaucracy is

0:54:49 > 0:54:51removed or designs to help people rather than hinder them. The

0:54:51 > 0:54:55honourable lady makes a very good point. The Government can hopefully

0:54:55 > 0:54:59support at least that element of the Bill, because bringing these young

0:54:59 > 0:55:03people family doesn't the rules. Firstly, it would give those

0:55:03 > 0:55:07families applying the reunited more certainty that they are eligible.

0:55:07 > 0:55:12There is no separate family application form to be reunited

0:55:12 > 0:55:18outside the rules. The family then has to rely on caseworkers seeing

0:55:18 > 0:55:21that there are exceptional circumstances, and applying their

0:55:21 > 0:55:24discretion. For those families able to reunite under the discretionary

0:55:24 > 0:55:28element of the rules, there are further problems when the family

0:55:28 > 0:55:33member arrives in the UK. Under the main Family Reunion rules, family

0:55:33 > 0:55:36members coming to the UK get the same type of leaders they built that

0:55:36 > 0:55:39they are joining. This means they are granted five years leave to stay

0:55:39 > 0:55:44in the UK, and are able to access support to help the family rebuild

0:55:44 > 0:55:48their lives together, including ensuring they have suitable housing

0:55:48 > 0:55:50and enough financial assistance to help them integrate into the new

0:55:50 > 0:55:54homes. But for family members reunited outside the rules, they do

0:55:54 > 0:55:59not get the same type of lead. They will usually be granted 33 months,

0:55:59 > 0:56:05and subject to restrictions that refugee status is not, including not

0:56:05 > 0:56:08having the course to public funds. They will face a longer part of the

0:56:08 > 0:56:12settlement from the family members they are joining, and can find

0:56:12 > 0:56:15themselves living in overcrowded accommodation or can experience

0:56:15 > 0:56:21homelessness. So after having credit Matip back story, the current story

0:56:21 > 0:56:25can be quite difficult as well. The Bill will allow refugee children to

0:56:25 > 0:56:30sponsor the closest family members to join them. Currently, the UK is

0:56:30 > 0:56:33one of only two countries in the EU that does not allow children who

0:56:33 > 0:56:37have been recognised as refugees to have any Family Reunion writes, that

0:56:37 > 0:56:41is the crux of the matter that we have to change. That is a small

0:56:41 > 0:56:45piece that this Bill does, and as I said earlier, we are not doing

0:56:45 > 0:56:48enough but at least we are doing that. While most countries in the EU

0:56:48 > 0:56:55are signed up to the family reunion directive, which grants separated

0:56:55 > 0:56:58children Family Reunion writes, the UK along with Ireland and Denmark

0:56:58 > 0:57:06did not opt in to that. But I want them -- Ireland amended domestic

0:57:06 > 0:57:11legislation to allow this, while the UK did not. Children have therefore

0:57:11 > 0:57:14been recognised in the UK Government as being in need of international

0:57:14 > 0:57:18protection, and it has been accepted it as an safe for them to return

0:57:18 > 0:57:22home, but are still kept apart from their parents. Young boys and girls,

0:57:22 > 0:57:27many of them will have faced untold horrors after fleeing their home, I

0:57:27 > 0:57:35left that those who would be best placed to support them.

0:57:35 > 0:57:40I am grateful for you giving way. He has made a good point, I think he is

0:57:40 > 0:57:44saying that every other European country apart from Denmark believes

0:57:44 > 0:57:49that a child should have the right to come join them, so any argument

0:57:49 > 0:57:53that the Government make today, is an argument that is not accepted in

0:57:53 > 0:57:58Germany, is France, Italy, and every other European country. Why should

0:57:58 > 0:58:03those arguments be different for the UK? Would you like to originate on

0:58:03 > 0:58:08that?I think that the honourable gentleman has raise an important

0:58:08 > 0:58:13point. I think there is a feeling from some, and excused used by some

0:58:13 > 0:58:19that this as it passes, will encourage people to send their

0:58:19 > 0:58:24children first. I will deal with that point later, but if that point

0:58:24 > 0:58:27was through, then it would be happening in those other countries,

0:58:27 > 0:58:30that the honourable gentleman mentions, therefore it is not true

0:58:30 > 0:58:37at all. If legal aid was the point, that all the refugees of England and

0:58:37 > 0:58:41Wales would be going to Scotland. People settle in places for a whole

0:58:41 > 0:58:50variety of personal circumstances, but these things help people settle

0:58:50 > 0:58:56and...May I congratulate the honourable gentleman on an important

0:58:56 > 0:59:01speech. Is he also aware that this issue is being cited in some areas

0:59:01 > 0:59:09as being the reason why Italy, and Greece, are not placing children and

0:59:09 > 0:59:14child refugees in the UK as part of the Dubs Amendment, because they are

0:59:14 > 0:59:19concerned that if there were any other country in Europe, they would

0:59:19 > 0:59:24be room reunited with their family, but in the UK, they would not.

0:59:24 > 0:59:27However, there are 240 places offered by local authorities that

0:59:27 > 0:59:31are empty as a result, and we are not filling those Dubs Amendment

0:59:31 > 0:59:35places, because there is such a gap between the UK's position and the

0:59:35 > 0:59:39rest of Europe's on this.Can I thank the honourable lady for that,

0:59:39 > 0:59:44and I was not aware of that fascinating point. The idea that

0:59:44 > 0:59:47other countries are choosing not to send their children to the UK... Out

0:59:47 > 0:59:55of common decent seat, in the best interests of those children, in fear

0:59:55 > 0:59:58that they could not be reunited with family. This makes even more

0:59:58 > 1:00:11imperative. Surely, we should be ensuring that that happens as the

1:00:11 > 1:00:17honourable lady points out. The children affected -- one of the

1:00:17 > 1:00:26children affected by the rules, is a boy growing up in Eritrea. In 2010,

1:00:26 > 1:00:29his brother was taken by the soldiers, and was never heard from

1:00:29 > 1:00:35again. Then, when he was 16, soldiers came to his school. He

1:00:35 > 1:00:40never returned. Age 16, he told his family that he had fled Eritrea. He

1:00:40 > 1:00:45did not know where he planned to go. That is the point about legal aid or

1:00:45 > 1:00:50whatever, he just needed to go, but he had to keep moving. He passed

1:00:50 > 1:00:56through Sudan, Libya, over the Mediterranean, and he fattens up in

1:00:56 > 1:00:59the United Kingdom. After applying for asylum, he was recognised -- he

1:00:59 > 1:01:05ends up in the UK. After applying for asylum, he was unable to be

1:01:05 > 1:01:09re-knighted with his family in Britain. The UK has offered him a

1:01:09 > 1:01:14new home. But what home could he have particularly at that age

1:01:14 > 1:01:21without his family? One refugees said, a refugee without a family, is

1:01:21 > 1:01:26like a body without a soul. That is something that is going to be in an

1:01:26 > 1:01:29amnesty report coming. The Government have previously asserted

1:01:29 > 1:01:33that allowing children to sponsor their family members to join them,

1:01:33 > 1:01:40sending the children to the UK, said that they can act as sponsors.

1:01:40 > 1:01:46Numerous peers to rose to take on this argument, before Christmas, and

1:01:46 > 1:01:49I congratulate them, echoing what Mr Justice said in the tribunal, that

1:01:49 > 1:01:54there is no evidence undermining it, it's been reproved factor of

1:01:54 > 1:02:03argument. The draft of Article 50 was one of those peers who took it

1:02:03 > 1:02:07on forcefully. He described the Government's indications that

1:02:07 > 1:02:12families in countries like Syria, Libya, Eritrea Zidane, could sit

1:02:12 > 1:02:16down together and make a cold calculation to send a child on a

1:02:16 > 1:02:24long journey across desert and see that might take several months or

1:02:24 > 1:02:27even years, so as to secure the right to send the family to join

1:02:27 > 1:02:33them. It is very difficult to disagree with the noble lord on this

1:02:33 > 1:02:41when he called it a joke. The Government has refuge over --

1:02:41 > 1:02:46recognised... There is no special definition of a refugee than a child

1:02:46 > 1:02:52having to meet that is different from an adult, they have two passed

1:02:52 > 1:02:57the same test, and if they are recognised as refugees, it is

1:02:57 > 1:03:00because of their need of international protection. It is

1:03:00 > 1:03:02therefore surely only right that these children are able to meet

1:03:02 > 1:03:07their family members, as adult refugees would be able to. A

1:03:07 > 1:03:13situation that has been described as perverse. This is the other side of

1:03:13 > 1:03:19the coin that this bill is dealing with. It would allow siblings under

1:03:19 > 1:03:2725 to join them. I had her not to make it, I had heard not to assert

1:03:27 > 1:03:30that parents would callously send their children on life-threatening

1:03:30 > 1:03:36journey is just so that they can later join them. I urge her to use

1:03:36 > 1:03:39instead recognise that children are better off being with their parents,

1:03:39 > 1:03:43with those who support them, to bring them to the UK, and bring the

1:03:43 > 1:03:48UK into line with the vast majority of the rest of Europe, so that

1:03:48 > 1:03:51people who are recently refugees in Greece and Italy can have trust and

1:03:51 > 1:03:58faith in the United Kingdom. Without wanting to pay out the minister to

1:03:58 > 1:04:01much, she may well argue that there are provisions for a wider group of

1:04:01 > 1:04:10family members to be reunited. These the lady... This bill is not needed,

1:04:10 > 1:04:14she would say. However, the right honourable lady is aware, those

1:04:14 > 1:04:20roots do not cover all family relationships that I just described,

1:04:20 > 1:04:31nor are they accessible for refugees.

1:04:35 > 1:04:38Clause one of the bill also gives the Home Secretary a discretionary

1:04:38 > 1:04:44power to grant a family reunion application, in other circumstances,

1:04:44 > 1:04:49where doing so maybe in the best interests of the child, because a

1:04:49 > 1:04:54family member, be in the carries circumstances, as a result of

1:04:54 > 1:05:00emotional, psychological, financial dependency, or as she may see

1:05:00 > 1:05:07otherwise fit. Can I trust the refugee team, who e-mailed me the

1:05:07 > 1:05:13other afternoon, to say that the trust supports the mental health of

1:05:13 > 1:05:22young refugees, and the refugee team here, with the support of the chief

1:05:22 > 1:05:26executive, Paul Jenkins, wishes to procure the support. Thank you very

1:05:26 > 1:05:32much for those working, who have taken time to get away from their

1:05:32 > 1:05:37busy lives, and who to write any mail in support of that. Family

1:05:37 > 1:05:39reunion is primarily about bringing families back together, but it

1:05:39 > 1:05:45should also be seen as a safe and legal route for refugees to escape

1:05:45 > 1:05:48dangerous circumstances. The Home Secretary, last month, television

1:05:48 > 1:05:52that the UK has reached the halfway point in resettling 20,000 refugees

1:05:52 > 1:06:03from the Syrian conflict, and this must the congratulated. -- must be

1:06:03 > 1:06:08congratulated. For the purposes of family reunion, it is only the

1:06:08 > 1:06:12relative of the UK, that -- in the UK that needs to be officially

1:06:12 > 1:06:16recognised as a refugee. The beneficiaries of family reunion are

1:06:16 > 1:06:20often the most honourable. In 2017, most family reunion visas work

1:06:20 > 1:06:26issued from people to Eritrea, Zidane, and Syria. -- Sudan and

1:06:26 > 1:06:39Syria. Despite the global refugee crisis being worse since... In

1:06:39 > 1:06:44recent years, the number of people applying asylum in the UK has

1:06:44 > 1:06:49fallen. 86% of refugees live in the world's poorest countries, not

1:06:49 > 1:06:59richest countries, expanding the provisions for them to find safety

1:06:59 > 1:07:08in our country is to our benefit as well as their benefit. This is what

1:07:08 > 1:07:18Klaus two is about. Until the passing of that act, legal

1:07:18 > 1:07:22assistance has been available. With its removal, even those families

1:07:22 > 1:07:26that are eligible to be reunited face significant hurdles, in being

1:07:26 > 1:07:29able to navigate the process. In their report, not so

1:07:29 > 1:07:33straightforward, the British Red Cross set out the many bureaucratic

1:07:33 > 1:07:43and practical barriers families face. At a recent event in

1:07:43 > 1:07:47parliament, MPs said first-hand about the impact of not having legal

1:07:47 > 1:07:54aid can have. And I am sure that our honourable member, said about Sara

1:07:54 > 1:08:00Foster, a case worker, with the British Red Cross, said that... For

1:08:00 > 1:08:06refugees who have been able to work, while the decision to work buster

1:08:06 > 1:08:11waiting for a decision to an asylum application, meeting these costs can

1:08:11 > 1:08:16prove near impossible. Sarah told us that families resort to loans from

1:08:16 > 1:08:26an sleepless lenders, and are living on virtually nothing to make the

1:08:26 > 1:08:33support that they need to make application fireball. She told us of

1:08:33 > 1:08:36one applicant who she met in a supermarket, who had been recognised

1:08:36 > 1:08:44as a refugee, and in his shopping basket were packet of 10p noodles.

1:08:44 > 1:08:50He plans to live on that the next few weeks to save up for the legal

1:08:50 > 1:08:54costs to bring his children to safety. These are the situations

1:08:54 > 1:08:57that we are dealing with, Madam Deputy Speaker. These are the

1:08:57 > 1:09:01situations that too many people are facing, and I would like just to

1:09:01 > 1:09:06wind up by thanking the British Red Cross, the UN refugee agency, the

1:09:06 > 1:09:12refugee Council, Amnesty International, Oxfam, for their

1:09:12 > 1:09:15support in this bill, and particular John Fenton for his extremely

1:09:15 > 1:09:19brilliant help, and I would like to thank many of the brilliant

1:09:19 > 1:09:22charities and supporters who have been in touch, and those who work

1:09:22 > 1:09:28every day to be in touch, and to help refugees, and also the baroness

1:09:28 > 1:09:33working on this area in the House of lords, the NHS refugee team, and one

1:09:33 > 1:09:43of the first people to get in touch with me, the landlord in Kent, who

1:09:43 > 1:09:47got in touch to ask how he could help. He has a refugee family.

1:09:47 > 1:09:53Across the United ended, we have seen tremendous support for this

1:09:53 > 1:09:57bill. People want to do the right thing, and I hope that members today

1:09:57 > 1:10:01will ensure that the right thing happens, and we see that this bill

1:10:01 > 1:10:09will progress at the very least to the next stage. Thank you very much.

1:10:09 > 1:10:17The question is that this bill be read a second time. David Warburton.

1:10:17 > 1:10:21Thank you very much, and it is a privilege and a pleasure to follow

1:10:21 > 1:10:36the honourable gentleman, the member for oh, it's gone... I nailed it. I

1:10:36 > 1:10:41really do congratulate, and I commend him for bringing this bill

1:10:41 > 1:10:47to the House, and for his moving persuade them -- persuasive, and

1:10:47 > 1:10:51fascinating speech. I don't just commend him for bringing it to the

1:10:51 > 1:10:55House, but also for building so much support around it, because this

1:10:55 > 1:11:00Israeli and important debate, and an important bill, and it is -- this is

1:11:00 > 1:11:05really an important debate and an important bill, and it is a subject

1:11:05 > 1:11:10close to my heart. Many of us will remember the Dubs Amendment in 2016,

1:11:10 > 1:11:15to the immigration act, when that came before the House in April that

1:11:15 > 1:11:18year. On the back of the Dublin regulation, which said that refugee

1:11:18 > 1:11:28families have a right to stay together. On the back of that, the

1:11:28 > 1:11:33Dubs Amendment looks too obviously extend that to unaccompanied

1:11:33 > 1:11:36children fleeing war in Syria, living at the time in the Calais

1:11:36 > 1:11:42camp. He did not have any family that. I was one of only five men as

1:11:42 > 1:11:46of this side of the House to feel sufficiently strongly to support

1:11:46 > 1:11:50that amendment and vote against the Government. Just three of us now

1:11:50 > 1:11:54remain on the benches. By honourable friend, the member for Colchester,

1:11:54 > 1:11:59who is just leaving the chamber, was the other, but the pressure that was

1:11:59 > 1:12:03exerted at the time was enough to persuade the Government to

1:12:03 > 1:12:07subsequently accept the amendment, and its provisions, and I mention

1:12:07 > 1:12:16all that because this area of policy is one which I have thought about

1:12:16 > 1:12:20carefully, and we all need is good to know that, particular as the

1:12:20 > 1:12:25landscape shifts and changes.

1:12:25 > 1:12:30It is only by exploring these issues that we come to the right

1:12:30 > 1:12:33conclusions. In doing so, I think we need to look carefully at the

1:12:33 > 1:12:39background to the situation today. If we look at the UK's reaction to

1:12:39 > 1:12:44the appalling humanitarian crisis in Syria, I think we can be proud of

1:12:44 > 1:12:51what is an impressive record. Almost 2.5 billion in aid has been

1:12:51 > 1:12:55committed since 2012. This not only represents our largest ever response

1:12:55 > 1:13:08to a humanitarian crisis but I believe we are second only to the

1:13:08 > 1:13:11United States in providing support and far ahead of our European

1:13:11 > 1:13:13neighbours. This support has been focused on educating refugees who

1:13:13 > 1:13:15found themselves in countries like Jordan, Lebanon, as well as helping

1:13:15 > 1:13:18them to find jobs. These are big numbers, over half a million

1:13:18 > 1:13:23children in Syria have been in education thanks to UK aid and tens

1:13:23 > 1:13:27of thousands enrolled in schools in surrounding countries. In terms of

1:13:27 > 1:13:33refugees coming to the UK, in 2016, at the height of the crisis in the

1:13:33 > 1:13:39Calais camps, the UK settled more refugees from outside Europe than

1:13:39 > 1:13:45any other EU state. In fact, figures show that over a third of people

1:13:45 > 1:13:51resettled in the EU actually came to the UK. In that process, the most

1:13:51 > 1:13:54vulnerable refugees have been supported through the settlement

1:13:54 > 1:13:58programmes that offer a safe and legal routes to protection and are

1:13:58 > 1:14:06specifically designed also to keep families together. By 2020, 20,000

1:14:06 > 1:14:10refugees from Syria will have been settled. Around half of which have

1:14:10 > 1:14:15already arrived here. Without wanting to list more figures, over

1:14:15 > 1:14:22the past five years, nearly 25,000 family reunion visas have been

1:14:22 > 1:14:26issued and since 2010, 50,000 people have been given protection status in

1:14:26 > 1:14:36the UK.It is a powerful speech. I wonder if he can reiterate the point

1:14:36 > 1:14:42on the refugees, we are seeking support. This country has a powerful

1:14:42 > 1:14:46record of supporting refugees in situ, in the region, where they are

1:14:46 > 1:14:49most vulnerable and the most vulnerable of those we are bringing

1:14:49 > 1:14:54them to safety on these shores and I wonder if he could address that

1:14:54 > 1:14:58issue in particular.My honourable friend reads my mind and has

1:14:58 > 1:15:07obviously been looking ahead. Not literally, I promise six under

1:15:07 > 1:15:09current rules, partners must rightly show that their relationship if they

1:15:09 > 1:15:14are coming here, predates their exile, and that it is ongoing and

1:15:14 > 1:15:17that both parties have an intent to continue the relationship here.

1:15:17 > 1:15:23Children must show they are related and under 18, unmarried and not

1:15:23 > 1:15:27living an independent life. Family reunion visas themselves are exempt

1:15:27 > 1:15:32from some of the usual criteria. There is no need to demonstrate

1:15:32 > 1:15:36adequate finance to support dependents and offenders do not have

1:15:36 > 1:15:40to demonstrate proficiency in English and there is no processing

1:15:40 > 1:15:43charge or immigration health surcharge will. When it comes to

1:15:43 > 1:15:56other family members, quite rightly, there are exceptions and additional

1:15:56 > 1:15:58compassionate circumstances that can be taken into account. These kinds

1:15:58 > 1:16:01of exceptions could apply to help a dependent child over a team or an

1:16:01 > 1:16:05unaccompanied child with a relative in the UK. As their House will know,

1:16:05 > 1:16:10family reunion can be enacted through other resettlement schemes,

1:16:10 > 1:16:13the mandate and Gateway schemes offer routes for refugees to be

1:16:13 > 1:16:18settled in the UK where this is in their best interest and both of

1:16:18 > 1:16:24these games recognise family ties as part of this calculation. A family

1:16:24 > 1:16:29links are also one of the grounds for eligibility under the Syrian

1:16:29 > 1:16:32vulnerable person resettlement scheme and the children at risk

1:16:32 > 1:16:37scheme is also helping to resettle up to 3000 people and their families

1:16:37 > 1:16:41from the Middle East and North Africa region over the course of

1:16:41 > 1:16:45this Parliament. I think the key part of looking closely at this area

1:16:45 > 1:16:50has to be a focus on how best we target our responses and are

1:16:50 > 1:16:53supported as my honourable friend pointed out earlier. If we change

1:16:53 > 1:16:59policy here in the UK, if we signal and signpost ourselves as a more

1:16:59 > 1:17:05open door, how will this influence behaviour and therefore lives? Those

1:17:05 > 1:17:08facing civil war and persecution, as we have heard, had little choice

1:17:08 > 1:17:13about fleeing their homeland, but what follows that, how best can we

1:17:13 > 1:17:20step in to support?I am grateful to the honourable gentleman giving way,

1:17:20 > 1:17:24but if these children have been accepted as refugees does he not say

1:17:24 > 1:17:29that the cost to the government, local government and everyone else

1:17:29 > 1:17:35in their future years, will be less if they are part of a family and

1:17:35 > 1:17:37have a successful life and a successful settlement and are not

1:17:37 > 1:17:48left here as orphans?That is a very good point and I appreciate the

1:17:48 > 1:17:51intervention. Cost is not the matter here, this is really about... It is

1:17:51 > 1:17:55about what factors will influence behaviour. What will be the result

1:17:55 > 1:18:04of a change of policy? Because I think...He is making a very

1:18:04 > 1:18:07powerful speech, a great deal of which I agree with and I recognise

1:18:07 > 1:18:11the great deal that the government has done in many areas but in terms

1:18:11 > 1:18:16of change of policy, one of the policy changes and it is modest and

1:18:16 > 1:18:21that is to make it easier for those who have fled in fear to get around

1:18:21 > 1:18:27the very difficult requirements to provide documentation, for example,

1:18:27 > 1:18:32in order to access Legal Aid. I am sure he will know that the British

1:18:32 > 1:18:39Red Cross found some families were missing documents. He will know that

1:18:39 > 1:18:42frequently, if you are genuinely fleeing in fear, you do not have

1:18:42 > 1:18:48time to go through a check list of document you might need later. This

1:18:48 > 1:18:52bill does, in a very modestly, improves things in a direction he

1:18:52 > 1:18:59has argued for in the past.There is a lot to be said for what he has

1:18:59 > 1:19:06just said. And as he knows, exceptional compassionate

1:19:06 > 1:19:10circumstances do exist and the Home Office guidance allows for this. He

1:19:10 > 1:19:14is absolutely right, there are issues about that and there are

1:19:14 > 1:19:20timing issues. The practicalities, the logistics of the situation can

1:19:20 > 1:19:26often mean that that is not as easy...The gentleman asks a very

1:19:26 > 1:19:32legitimate question in what will be the impact of change? We have heard

1:19:32 > 1:19:36today from the right honourable lady, the chair of the Home Affairs

1:19:36 > 1:19:39Select Committee, that current policy is one that is leading to

1:19:39 > 1:19:44authorities in Greece and Italy not sending children who would otherwise

1:19:44 > 1:19:48be eligible under the Dubs Amendment, is the honourable

1:19:48 > 1:19:55gentleman comfortable with the status quo?Not entirely. And I

1:19:55 > 1:20:00think we need to look closely at that and look closely at how the

1:20:00 > 1:20:09Dubs Amendment scheme is being run and and how it has been runs. I'd do

1:20:09 > 1:20:14not think councils have taken it on in the way that they perhaps should

1:20:14 > 1:20:20have done. Secondary movements are important. I think... I am not sure

1:20:20 > 1:20:25that secondary movements really do improve lives and I think that there

1:20:25 > 1:20:31are precedents, there are examples that we can look at. In 2015,

1:20:31 > 1:20:36Germany's asylum seeker intake increased by 155% as a result of

1:20:36 > 1:20:44people reacting specifically to policy change. More than 20% of

1:20:44 > 1:20:47those people who sought that asylum in Germany that year were from the

1:20:47 > 1:20:50Balkan countries, which have been conflict free for more than 20

1:20:50 > 1:20:53years. Those people were not seeking refuge, they were seeking

1:20:53 > 1:21:01opportunity.Just to be clear with the honourable gentleman, what we

1:21:01 > 1:21:05are doing is we are putting under eight teams in the same category as

1:21:05 > 1:21:09overrated. They are already here and we are giving them a right to family

1:21:09 > 1:21:17life. That is what they want and if that is what they want to make their

1:21:17 > 1:21:21lives better,... There is an argument were some would say that

1:21:21 > 1:21:23under that act over eight teams neither family more. We should give

1:21:23 > 1:21:31it to the under 18 's, they are here.I am sure no one would

1:21:31 > 1:21:35disagree with the fact that it would not be in the end chest... It would

1:21:35 > 1:21:39only be in the interest of people traffickers and no one else's, for

1:21:39 > 1:21:44children to be encouraged to leave their families and undertake a

1:21:44 > 1:21:46perilous, difficult and dangerous journeys in the hope that the

1:21:46 > 1:21:51relatives might be able to join them in the future. How much worse if

1:21:51 > 1:21:58they found themselves forced to do that? In my experience, chairing an

1:21:58 > 1:22:02enquiry into resilience into extremism in North Africa and the

1:22:02 > 1:22:06Middle East, has shown that there an appalling number of criminal gangs

1:22:06 > 1:22:12looking to exploit vulnerable people in the region. Our role must be to

1:22:12 > 1:22:16provide support first in the region, upholding for all of the reasons we

1:22:16 > 1:22:20have heard, that those who need international protection should be

1:22:20 > 1:22:25able to claim this in the first safe country they reach.Has he had the

1:22:25 > 1:22:32benefit of reading the report from last summer, an independent enquiry

1:22:32 > 1:22:36into the situation of separated and unaccompanied minors in Europe? If

1:22:36 > 1:22:40he does, he will see that using evidence, they knocked the myth of

1:22:40 > 1:22:45the pool factor on its head.I have not read it and I would be

1:22:45 > 1:22:49interested to read it and I will look that bad. Thank you very much.

1:22:49 > 1:22:55It sounds interesting. The pull factor does appear to be something

1:22:55 > 1:23:00that is cited time and time again and in Germany, there is a clear

1:23:00 > 1:23:03example of that and I would be intrigued to know how it is they

1:23:03 > 1:23:10have come to the opposite conclusion. I think that we need to

1:23:10 > 1:23:14look at the quickest and least precarious route for safety, rather

1:23:14 > 1:23:19than travelling into and across Europe to reach the UK. Having said

1:23:19 > 1:23:23that, it is also vital that we are in a position to continually review

1:23:23 > 1:23:29and mould policy to adapt ourselves to changing circumstances. As the

1:23:29 > 1:23:36member Bill seeks to do. I am very pleased, as I said, that we are able

1:23:36 > 1:23:46to debate it and I hope... As my honourable friend, the member for

1:23:46 > 1:23:50mid-Worcestershire, as he said, I warned against using language like

1:23:50 > 1:23:58empathy bypass, because I don't think... It is in the interest of a

1:23:58 > 1:24:03friendly, productive, nonpartisan debate, because we all have views,

1:24:03 > 1:24:09we all have our own... We all obviously feel empathy and we may

1:24:09 > 1:24:15express that in different ways, all opinion can be equally and properly

1:24:15 > 1:24:20express, I hope and value. Let me just get to the end. I am very

1:24:20 > 1:24:26pleased that the Justice Secretary is undertaking the review of Legal

1:24:26 > 1:24:32Aid reforms. In his review, he will be properly addressing the Legal Aid

1:24:32 > 1:24:36changes in respect of immigration cases. I look forward to the report

1:24:36 > 1:24:41later this year and any changes that will result. Of course, on top of

1:24:41 > 1:24:45all this and perhaps above all, in tackling the plight of refugees, we

1:24:45 > 1:24:51need to look at the causes. The government must continue, as I have

1:24:51 > 1:24:56every faith that will, to support international efforts to find a

1:24:56 > 1:24:59comprehensive and sustainable solution to the root causes of the

1:24:59 > 1:25:04refugee crisis. Yes, we must respond, carefully and deliberately

1:25:04 > 1:25:07to the consequences of the situation in the Middle East, but we must

1:25:07 > 1:25:12focus hard on the matter itself. This, I finish that the government

1:25:12 > 1:25:15will continue to do and I am sure that the whole House will support

1:25:15 > 1:25:24those efforts.Vicky Foxcroft. Thank you. I want to begin by

1:25:24 > 1:25:27congratulating my honourable friend on the second reading of his bill.

1:25:27 > 1:25:31There are many of us in this house who feel strongly about this subject

1:25:31 > 1:25:35and I am grateful for the opportunity to make my own

1:25:35 > 1:25:40contribution to the debate. I suspect, like many of my honourable

1:25:40 > 1:25:45friends who are here today, my interest in this bill comes from

1:25:45 > 1:25:50personal experiences gained at my advice surgery. Lewisham Deptford

1:25:50 > 1:25:54has more than its fair share of immigration casework and many of the

1:25:54 > 1:25:59cases my staff and I deal with are very troubling. However, it is those

1:25:59 > 1:26:04which fall within the scope of this bill but are often the most

1:26:04 > 1:26:09traumatic. In December last year, I met with a Somali woman who is

1:26:09 > 1:26:22caring for her four nieces and nephews in Lewisham

1:26:22 > 1:26:25after their father was murdered in front of them and their mother back

1:26:25 > 1:26:27home in Somalia. The mother disappeared for several years and it

1:26:27 > 1:26:29was discovered that she had sought asylum in Cyprus. She is

1:26:29 > 1:26:33experiencing deteriorating physical health as well as suffering from the

1:26:33 > 1:26:36mental trauma. My constituent is in the process of trying to reunite her

1:26:36 > 1:26:43sister with her children, but under current rules, the sister has to

1:26:43 > 1:26:46undergo a lengthy, stressful and costly process of applying for a

1:26:46 > 1:26:53visa to settle here. The Lewisham refugee and migrant network, and

1:26:53 > 1:26:56excellent but overstretched and under resourced service which

1:26:56 > 1:27:05operates in my constituency...Thank you. I know what good work it has

1:27:05 > 1:27:10done. Was she recognised the work for action for refugees in Lewisham

1:27:10 > 1:27:21who would also be assisted by the provisions set out in this bill.I

1:27:21 > 1:27:31agree. We have so many organisations who do so much great work. I was

1:27:31 > 1:27:35told about a woman from Gambia who claimed asylum in the UK with her

1:27:35 > 1:27:40youngest child in 2011 after finding out that the government forces were

1:27:40 > 1:27:41looking for her husband and family.

1:27:50 > 1:27:53Her eldest daughter turned 18 in the intervening years and has not been

1:27:53 > 1:27:59allowed to roam reconvened with our family in the UK. These are

1:27:59 > 1:28:01vulnerable people, and as my honourable and right honourable

1:28:01 > 1:28:08friend is well no, it is stressful enough to negotiate the Home Office

1:28:08 > 1:28:12system without adding the extra difficulties associated with having

1:28:12 > 1:28:19suffered significant trauma. The cost of making a Visa, is also a

1:28:19 > 1:28:28significant barrier. If you allow me to lighten the mood is likely at

1:28:28 > 1:28:33this point, I say that I am proud of the work of my local council, the

1:28:33 > 1:28:38London Borough of Lewisham, who have been doing great work to support

1:28:38 > 1:28:44refugees, and are formally agreed to join the resettlement programme in

1:28:44 > 1:28:50September 2016, Lewisham Council has housed 15 families from Syria, which

1:28:50 > 1:28:55was the second-highest number of any London borough. As an Lewisham

1:28:55 > 1:28:59Council also assures me that it has offered 24 Kappes is for

1:28:59 > 1:29:04unaccompanied refugee children, but the Home Office has only used one of

1:29:04 > 1:29:09them. This is completely unacceptable.She points out the

1:29:09 > 1:29:13case in Lewisham, which you point out that this is the case with

1:29:13 > 1:29:17Labour led councils across the country, where they are offering to

1:29:17 > 1:29:21put more up, but the Government is not using them, and the Government

1:29:21 > 1:29:26needs to take action immediately to utilise these places.I absolutely

1:29:26 > 1:29:28agree with everything that my honourable friend has just said,

1:29:28 > 1:29:32like I was saying that this is completely unacceptable. We have got

1:29:32 > 1:29:37a council that is willing to help, and no doubt, hundreds of honourable

1:29:37 > 1:29:42children who are in a position where they need their help. In conclusion,

1:29:42 > 1:29:47because I want to be brief, because I want us to is how -- us to have a

1:29:47 > 1:29:52vote on this, like many of us here today, I firmly believe that if a

1:29:52 > 1:29:56child refugee has been granted the right to be in the UK, his or her

1:29:56 > 1:30:00parents or carers should also be granted that right. Equally,

1:30:00 > 1:30:05children who grew up in this country, should be allowed that

1:30:05 > 1:30:10right, even after they reach the age of 18. This bill would unable both

1:30:10 > 1:30:16of these things do happen, whilst also providing vital financial

1:30:16 > 1:30:21support in the form of legal aid. Families are being torn apart by the

1:30:21 > 1:30:31current rules, and this simply has to change.Thank you, Madam Deputy

1:30:31 > 1:30:35Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow both my honourable friend the member

1:30:35 > 1:30:40for Somerton and Frome who spoke of his commitment to this issue, and

1:30:40 > 1:30:44highlighted his concerns about his bill in a very constructive way, I

1:30:44 > 1:30:47thought, contrary to the way that sadly I am afraid the honourable

1:30:47 > 1:30:55gentleman presented earlier, and also to follow the honourable lady,

1:30:55 > 1:30:59who shared her insight from her constituency, which is a very

1:30:59 > 1:31:04different constituency from mine, and I respect what you contributed

1:31:04 > 1:31:08to the debate, and the insight that she gave me, but the Government has

1:31:08 > 1:31:13done much good in this area which I support, even so, I rise concerns,

1:31:13 > 1:31:17as did my honourable friend, but this bill in the name the honourable

1:31:17 > 1:31:21member for Western Isles and others, and whilst it is a pleasure to serve

1:31:21 > 1:31:27under the honourable members on the trade committee, where sometimes,

1:31:27 > 1:31:31even we agree, I am afraid on this matter, the substance of this bill,

1:31:31 > 1:31:36I have my doubts will stop even without doubting his intentions, he

1:31:36 > 1:31:42is wrong in this area. Of course I will give way.I am very grateful. I

1:31:42 > 1:31:53will happily discoursing, to the lobby, we can discuss this.The

1:31:53 > 1:31:57honourable gentleman escorts me all around the world as we build

1:31:57 > 1:32:00positive trade relationships with our friends around the world, and I

1:32:00 > 1:32:04will talk about some of that, and perhaps we continue to agree rather

1:32:04 > 1:32:11than on the substance of this bill. Let asked is considerable this bill

1:32:11 > 1:32:15asks. It aims to require the Home Secretary to widen immigration rules

1:32:15 > 1:32:22to grant visas to a wide range of relatives. By making it easier for a

1:32:22 > 1:32:27parent to join a child refugee, this could incentivise families to send

1:32:27 > 1:32:32their child ahead, on a perilous journey, often in the hands of

1:32:32 > 1:32:39unscrupulous people traffickers. The bill wishes to amend the legal aid

1:32:39 > 1:32:48sentencing and punishment of assist the -- of offenders act, but this is

1:32:48 > 1:32:52taxpayers' money, and we must therefore be very responsible about

1:32:52 > 1:32:56how we spend it. This bill makes no mention of how to encourage

1:32:56 > 1:33:00integration, how to provide education, how to offer other

1:33:00 > 1:33:02opportunities refugees, nor does it make any attempt to tackle the

1:33:02 > 1:33:06situation is that people are fleeing, rather than it simply

1:33:06 > 1:33:13accept that this will continue to be the case. I will.Thank you to my

1:33:13 > 1:33:18noble friend for giving way. Could I just go out in to consider this.

1:33:18 > 1:33:25This is a bill about refugees, not economic migrants, with whom one

1:33:25 > 1:33:32might have some sympathy, but these are people who are fleeing war,

1:33:32 > 1:33:38persecution, terror, on a scale frankly that's none of us can even

1:33:38 > 1:33:42begin to imagine. So, the idea that you would willingly put your child

1:33:42 > 1:33:51in such an even more perilous place, is frankly for the ferries.I

1:33:51 > 1:33:55respect the honourable lady's contribution, and her right to make

1:33:55 > 1:34:00them to the House, but equally, as she lets me extend my argument, I

1:34:00 > 1:34:04think she will understand why I have concerns about this process, and

1:34:04 > 1:34:08wire have concerns about the use, potentially of those aren't stupid

1:34:08 > 1:34:12as people traffickers, and some people, even in this country, --

1:34:12 > 1:34:25potentially of potentially abuse at the hands of people traffickers.

1:34:25 > 1:34:29Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the honourable gentleman for

1:34:29 > 1:34:34giving way, and I speak for the ferries, but logic would dictate

1:34:34 > 1:34:40that we are dealing with a war-torn area, and that people will do

1:34:40 > 1:34:44incredibly desperate things, such as those that the honourable gentleman

1:34:44 > 1:34:49has outlined, and I don't think it is for the ferries at all. It is a

1:34:49 > 1:34:53sad reality of countries around the world that also is these things to

1:34:53 > 1:34:57happen.I thank my honourable friend for his contributors, and indeed, I

1:34:57 > 1:35:00think you support this point. I think that debate is continuing

1:35:00 > 1:35:05behind me, but in discussing why I believe that this bill is misguided,

1:35:05 > 1:35:12it would seem important for us to discuss the current system that...

1:35:12 > 1:35:15This is history, is important to where we are, today. Principally,

1:35:15 > 1:35:22the UK that is a party to the UK's 1951 Convention relating to the

1:35:22 > 1:35:27status of refugees, and the protocol which expanded coverage beyond

1:35:27 > 1:35:34Europe and fleeing World War II. It is important to note that the

1:35:34 > 1:35:39convention does not, the UN Convention does not provide an

1:35:39 > 1:35:42automatic right to family reunion refugees. The convention does,

1:35:42 > 1:35:47however, recommend that signatories take the necessary measures for the

1:35:47 > 1:35:51protection of the refugee's family, which contends that the Government

1:35:51 > 1:35:56does at present. The Government daily takes more account than this

1:35:56 > 1:36:00proposed bill dies of protection of refugees family, by reducing the

1:36:00 > 1:36:05pressure is on family members, as my honourable friend the memorable day

1:36:05 > 1:36:14till Basil, said, questions which I believe this bill could amplify. 30

1:36:14 > 1:36:19years on from the UN Convention, and 20 on from the protocol amending it,

1:36:19 > 1:36:27Article three of the 1989 UA -- 1989 UN Convention ensures that the

1:36:27 > 1:36:35best... Home Office officials, when assessing asylum claims must

1:36:35 > 1:36:39already, therefore, consider the best interest of a child. A similar

1:36:39 > 1:36:46consideration must be taken under a number of UK's governments under

1:36:46 > 1:36:51international law. The UK is a signatory, because of our historic

1:36:51 > 1:36:55desire to spread British values, and often where British values lead, the

1:36:55 > 1:37:00world has followed. And it is often said that the convention was

1:37:00 > 1:37:03originally conceived by Churchill and drafted mainly by British

1:37:03 > 1:37:08lawyers. It is perhaps ironic that I would contends shameless ambulance

1:37:08 > 1:37:12chasing lawyers now uses Convention as a stick to hit Britain with in

1:37:12 > 1:37:16all sorts of situations, perhaps work bye were seen in their

1:37:16 > 1:37:24behaviour in Northern Ireland and Iraq. Some of the worst offenders in

1:37:24 > 1:37:28the legal profession use their skills to actually purport that

1:37:28 > 1:37:31certain people are refugees when they are not, devaluing the

1:37:31 > 1:37:35argument, that should be rightly agreed across the whole house that a

1:37:35 > 1:37:40genuine refugees should have the support of this country.I thank the

1:37:40 > 1:37:44honourable gentleman forgiving way. Do you share my concern that whilst

1:37:44 > 1:37:50it sounds great, Russia is actually a signatory, and we can look at it

1:37:50 > 1:37:56abysmal human rights record under Putin.My honourable friend

1:37:56 > 1:38:02anticipates my argument, and he reminds me that in my maiden speech,

1:38:02 > 1:38:06when I referred to King John who wrote from his castle in my

1:38:06 > 1:38:10constituency to sign the Magna Carta, he created rights for the

1:38:10 > 1:38:16first time in 1215. I said in my maiden speech, human rights were not

1:38:16 > 1:38:21conceived in 1998, they have existed for centuries, they did not exist in

1:38:21 > 1:38:31a vacuum. Rights were balanced by responsibilities. Rights must be

1:38:31 > 1:38:34balanced by responsibilities, to prevent them to carving to harm, and

1:38:34 > 1:38:39by response please is the rest of our country.I am extremely grateful

1:38:39 > 1:38:43to the honourable gentleman, since he is giving us a history lesson,

1:38:43 > 1:38:47isn't the best example in history of a mother sending her child on a

1:38:47 > 1:38:54perilous journey that of placing roses in a basket because of what

1:38:54 > 1:39:01she feared would happen to him, shouldn't we be drawing on that kind

1:39:01 > 1:39:05of example rather than telling us about his fears that the push or

1:39:05 > 1:39:07pull factor?If the honourable gentleman had been paying attention

1:39:07 > 1:39:14from the back of the class, he would have heard me say repeatedly that I

1:39:14 > 1:39:16support genuine refugees being looked after by Britain and allies

1:39:16 > 1:39:21in the world, but the trouble is that this system can be abused. That

1:39:21 > 1:39:25is why the European Convention on human rights, in Article eight

1:39:25 > 1:39:29provide a qualified right to respect family and private life, whilst this

1:39:29 > 1:39:34can be interfered with the purpose of maintaining effective immigration

1:39:34 > 1:39:38controls, the interference must be proportionate. The refugees cannot

1:39:38 > 1:39:42easily return to their families, in that case, the Home Office must take

1:39:42 > 1:39:53respect for family life into account. A final example is the

1:39:53 > 1:39:56Dublin regulation, which does prioritise respect for a family

1:39:56 > 1:40:02reunion about certain other considerations, such as which state

1:40:02 > 1:40:07a refugee in Nisha Lee entered the EU. The Government supported this,

1:40:07 > 1:40:11-- initially entered the EU. The Government supported this and

1:40:11 > 1:40:19another a £10 million fund. It is important to note that again, no

1:40:19 > 1:40:23automatic right of family reunion was conferred. These rules only

1:40:23 > 1:40:27determine which country a person can stay in whilst they await a

1:40:27 > 1:40:35decision. The problem is that the United Kingdom respect it -- it is

1:40:35 > 1:40:40vital that other countries respect... Described as the

1:40:40 > 1:40:48electronic centrepiece of the Dublin regulations, your DAC is a central

1:40:48 > 1:40:51system of fingerprints. Police authorities in Germany said that

1:40:51 > 1:40:56they couldn't keep up. There was a similar situation in Greece, which

1:40:56 > 1:41:00estimated in 2000 betting that more of a third of people arriving were

1:41:00 > 1:41:05not fingerprinted, and in Italy, too. Greece and Italy have the

1:41:05 > 1:41:10highest numbers recorded under category to Mac, -- under category

1:41:10 > 1:41:18to Mac. After 18 months, category two data is raised, enabling people

1:41:18 > 1:41:22to apply for asylum in another EU member state, even if they cannot be

1:41:22 > 1:41:27entitled to do so. This is wrong, because Italy and Greece are safe

1:41:27 > 1:41:31countries. Any member opposite that wishes to disagree with me, should

1:41:31 > 1:41:36take that up with the ambassadors for those countries. There is no

1:41:36 > 1:41:40reason for a genuine refugees fleeing horrific violence and

1:41:40 > 1:41:44persecution, not to see a flood of relief and safety on arrival in

1:41:44 > 1:41:49either country. And obviously, for the avoidance of doubt, it is right

1:41:49 > 1:41:52for the United Kingdom to play our part, and we do. But perhaps the

1:41:52 > 1:41:56reason that so many of the arrivals are not registering their

1:41:56 > 1:42:00fingerprints is that they have not been refugees fleeing conflict,

1:42:00 > 1:42:04whether in Syria, or as were in the Middle East, but are economic

1:42:04 > 1:42:14migrants from countries further afield, perhaps sub-Saharan Africa.

1:42:14 > 1:42:18Would he recognise that Britain is one of six countries around the

1:42:18 > 1:42:23world where it meets the 0.7% target on spending on international aid and

1:42:23 > 1:42:28so few other countries are doing that including many around the

1:42:28 > 1:42:33European Union?That is an excellent point and again, he pre-empts my

1:42:33 > 1:42:38remarks, because I will talk about aid which I think is a vital part of

1:42:38 > 1:42:43this debate. Before I do, I wanted to refer to what one of my

1:42:43 > 1:42:57constituent said to me, Graham, he wrote to me and he said the majority

1:42:57 > 1:42:59of would-be asylum seekers have landed on Mediterranean coasts and

1:42:59 > 1:43:02have then chosen to cross several countries, all of which could have

1:43:02 > 1:43:04provided refuge. This seems to contradict the argument that they

1:43:04 > 1:43:09are escaping from persecution and water. I would suggest that

1:43:09 > 1:43:12honourable members should listen to people in the country and listen to

1:43:12 > 1:43:17the views of people in the country, rather than belittling them, because

1:43:17 > 1:43:24this of course is the establishment view of people, who then need to

1:43:24 > 1:43:32consider what people feel in the country. They have all been

1:43:32 > 1:43:36criticising this constituent and maligning his views, but this

1:43:36 > 1:43:41constituent wrote in that same e-mail of his personal belief in a

1:43:41 > 1:43:46sensible and compassionate system of accepting genuine refugees. I agree

1:43:46 > 1:43:55with him. I must make some progress. So the UK's commitment under

1:43:55 > 1:43:59international law, which we clearly follow and the letters I have

1:43:59 > 1:44:07received from constituents,...Point of order.The people we are talking

1:44:07 > 1:44:12about in the bill are already here. This is another topic. That is not a

1:44:12 > 1:44:18point of order. The honourable gentleman will continue his speech.

1:44:18 > 1:44:21The commitments under international law which the UK clearly follows

1:44:21 > 1:44:25more closely than other countries and the letters I have received from

1:44:25 > 1:44:32constituent shows that the UK does care about refugees. Under the

1:44:32 > 1:44:35Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement scheme, the UK

1:44:35 > 1:44:40resettled over 10,500 people by last month. The Home Secretary

1:44:40 > 1:44:43highlighted several points which I think are important to reiterate

1:44:43 > 1:44:58today as to why we should be proud. This is the largest number of

1:45:00 > 1:45:02any European country. Nearly half of those resettled have been children.

1:45:02 > 1:45:04We are over halfway to honouring our commitment and the government is

1:45:04 > 1:45:07considering whether the UK's should extend its target. Over 500 children

1:45:07 > 1:45:10have been resettled under a different scheme or the children at

1:45:10 > 1:45:16risk scheme, plus 220 unaccompanied children were resettled under the

1:45:16 > 1:45:22immigration act and another 8000 Syrian asylum seekers have been

1:45:22 > 1:45:27granted asylum since 2011. The UK operates the gateway protection

1:45:27 > 1:45:32programme which allows resettlement of up to 750 refugees every year,

1:45:32 > 1:45:39referred to the UK by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees under the

1:45:39 > 1:45:441951 Convention. We have the mandate refugee programme and the Home

1:45:44 > 1:45:51Office considers asylum from those granted refugee status and either a

1:45:51 > 1:45:55local office or the British Embassy in the country of refuge and to have

1:45:55 > 1:46:00close ties to the UK, including but not limited to the family here.

1:46:00 > 1:46:05Applying to the UK through the immigration system is also one

1:46:05 > 1:46:12additional option open to refugees. In total, since 2010, the UK has

1:46:12 > 1:46:25provided asylum or protection to 28,000 children and in the last five

1:46:25 > 1:46:30years, 24,700, 24,700 family reunion visas have been granted, over 5000

1:46:30 > 1:46:36of the 8000 decisions on family reunion applications between October

1:46:36 > 1:46:422016 and September 20 and two thirds were granted. But those were all

1:46:42 > 1:46:48these schemes have in common, of course, is that UN recognised

1:46:48 > 1:46:53refugees living overseas resettled in the UK. In 2016, the UK resettled

1:46:53 > 1:46:59more refugees from outside Europe than any other EU member state. The

1:46:59 > 1:47:02UK will gladly resettled genuine refugees living overseas where this

1:47:02 > 1:47:06is deemed to be in their best interest, but crucially, without

1:47:06 > 1:47:13people being encouraged to undertake life-threatening journeys to apply.

1:47:13 > 1:47:19The UK has resettled many thousands of refugees, even if people, members

1:47:19 > 1:47:24opposite, might choose to dismiss that. The UK has spent billions in

1:47:24 > 1:47:28aid as my honourable friend has mentioned already to help look after

1:47:28 > 1:47:33refugees in the countries where the first sought refuge. Perhaps in

1:47:33 > 1:47:39their own country, even in their own country, only yesterday morning

1:47:39 > 1:47:45listening to the Today programme, I heard from several residents living

1:47:45 > 1:47:49under bombardment in Easter and good, the opposition rebel

1:47:49 > 1:47:55stronghold on the edge of Damascus. An English language teacher, the

1:47:55 > 1:48:01mother of one family with young daughters and once the -- one son,

1:48:01 > 1:48:07she met her husband in 1990 and almost 20 years ago, they moved to

1:48:07 > 1:48:10Easter Guta from the US to be close to his elderly parents. Here is what

1:48:10 > 1:48:20she said. This is my kitchen. Here we used to the fridge as a cupboard

1:48:20 > 1:48:24to store things then. My daughter is doing the dishes. I know the world

1:48:24 > 1:48:29is waiting for us to evacuate but it is not right. It is not right to

1:48:29 > 1:48:33kick someone out of their own land, it is not right to force people to

1:48:33 > 1:48:38leave. What will happen to them. They will just be displaced people,

1:48:38 > 1:48:42wherever they go, people will look down on them. How do I think all

1:48:42 > 1:48:53this will end? I am not

1:48:56 > 1:48:59sure, to tell you the truth. I know what I hope and I hope something

1:48:59 > 1:49:02good will happen and that everything will be OK and that is what I tell

1:49:02 > 1:49:04myself. Everything will be OK. While members opposite seemed to be

1:49:04 > 1:49:07disinterested in the life experience of someone who is living through a

1:49:07 > 1:49:09living hell, I pray that she is right. I believe, Diana makes an

1:49:09 > 1:49:13excellent point. All the more relevant to us today, because this

1:49:13 > 1:49:19is her lived experience. She and her family are surviving, no more than

1:49:19 > 1:49:23that, in an underground shelter, a basement. Perhaps we should listen

1:49:23 > 1:49:28to people like Diana and not just assume that we know how they think

1:49:28 > 1:49:35and feel. Perhaps we should not be forced to flee their countries and

1:49:35 > 1:49:40to make dangerous journeys halfway across the world. And that is why we

1:49:40 > 1:49:47should be proud of all the aid and the 25 million, 25 million food

1:49:47 > 1:49:53rations the UK has given. Back in 2016, David Cameron pledged an

1:49:53 > 1:49:57additional 1.2 billion of support for refugees from Syria, including

1:49:57 > 1:50:03in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey. Last year the government unveiled a £1

1:50:03 > 1:50:08billion aid package for Syrian refugees, providing food, shelter,

1:50:08 > 1:50:12vaccines, health care, skills and job opportunities so they do not

1:50:12 > 1:50:16feel forced to make the perilous and potentially life-threatening journey

1:50:16 > 1:50:22to Europe. There are many other UK aid projects as well, including 300

1:50:22 > 1:50:27million towards a facility for refugees in Turkey, 200 million

1:50:27 > 1:50:31towards economic development opportunities in Jordan. Almost 200

1:50:31 > 1:50:33million to support Palestinian refugees. To those people listening

1:50:33 > 1:50:38on the radio and watching on television, it should be crystal

1:50:38 > 1:50:43clear, the UK does care and this government does care. I care and

1:50:43 > 1:50:51that is why we should not virtue the signal today. Even with a clear

1:50:51 > 1:50:54commitment to helping refugees show, I believe it is important that we

1:50:54 > 1:51:02retain clear control over our asylum seeker system. What is disgraceful

1:51:02 > 1:51:06is members not being heard in this House for their own views, which

1:51:06 > 1:51:12every member should be entitled to espouse. Let me continue in that

1:51:12 > 1:51:19vein. Take Sweden. The Guardian, no criticise of immigration of course,

1:51:19 > 1:51:25described the situation in Sweden it is almost bursting point.

1:51:25 > 1:51:29Continuing, there have been small riots in Malmo over the demolition

1:51:29 > 1:51:32of a migrant camp set up for Palestinians and a general sense

1:51:32 > 1:51:36that the fabric of Swedish society is under strain. These are not my

1:51:36 > 1:51:39words, these are the words of the Guardian newspaper. The Telegraph

1:51:39 > 1:51:46does not cross things over, they say when asylum seekers had their case

1:51:46 > 1:51:49rejected, most disappeared, on average seven out of ten of those

1:51:49 > 1:51:54facing deportation just banished or rather they stay in the country and

1:51:54 > 1:51:56keep gaining a system that could have been designed for ease of

1:51:56 > 1:52:01exploitation.I would gently say to my honourable friend, this is not

1:52:01 > 1:52:08one of his greatest contributions. Those parties stands proud on

1:52:08 > 1:52:14offering places of refuge, especially to children in conditions

1:52:14 > 1:52:20that he is actually described. Could I please remind him, this bill is

1:52:20 > 1:52:25about people who are our genuine refugees, who have been granted that

1:52:25 > 1:52:29status and I think if he could confine his comments to that, it

1:52:29 > 1:52:35would all progress in a much pleasanter way.I respect my

1:52:35 > 1:52:44honourable friend, and I respect her position as a sponsor of this bill.

1:52:44 > 1:52:48She is entirely right, it is entirely her right to be able to do

1:52:48 > 1:52:52that, but equally it is also my right and the right of every member

1:52:52 > 1:52:56to have contrary views and my argument that I outlined earlier is

1:52:56 > 1:53:03that some people, some people, game the system and that is wrong. That

1:53:03 > 1:53:07is wrong. And the risk of this bill, in my view, is that it could

1:53:07 > 1:53:12encourage more people to do that, more people to take that dangerous

1:53:12 > 1:53:16journey, that it could encourage more children to be put in harms way

1:53:16 > 1:53:20and even the children that Sweden attempts to resettle can suffer if

1:53:20 > 1:53:24refugees are granted asylum without careful management. The Telegraph

1:53:24 > 1:53:32said in 2004 it was absorbing about 400 children a year. Five years ago,

1:53:32 > 1:53:37this had grown to 2600 and even then the system was starting to creep.

1:53:37 > 1:53:44Last year, 35000 and accompanied children claimed asylum in children

1:53:44 > 1:53:48-- in Sweden, 35,000, providing the right characters so many would

1:53:48 > 1:53:52overwhelm a superpower let alone a small Nordic state. Care homes have

1:53:52 > 1:53:56been set up quickly and they fall short of what is needed to protect

1:53:56 > 1:54:01the staff and the children. A 22-year-old working out one of the

1:54:01 > 1:54:05homes was stabbed to death. This is no loan case. 18 points were found

1:54:05 > 1:54:10in an abandoned house with no toilets and no heating, the

1:54:10 > 1:54:13temperature was well below zero. They were slipping on the floor.

1:54:13 > 1:54:24Many under the' to keep warm and one was just nine years old. After being

1:54:24 > 1:54:27placed in a care home, they ran away and were sleeping rough again. There

1:54:27 > 1:54:30are anger at children who are sent ahead by the desperate families.

1:54:30 > 1:54:35This is the point that my honourable friend made earlier. There are

1:54:35 > 1:54:40trafficked children who are sent ahead by desperate families. There

1:54:40 > 1:54:47are also trafficked children who may be in the hands of gang masters and

1:54:47 > 1:54:51before sleep -- may be forced into work and prostitution. There are

1:54:51 > 1:54:53children living in abandoned buildings often sucked into a

1:54:53 > 1:54:55criminal underworld. The article concluded that the lesson from the

1:54:55 > 1:54:59continent is clear, to let in more immigrants than you can handle leads

1:54:59 > 1:55:11to trouble, but to admit that more children order.Can we calm it down

1:55:11 > 1:55:16a bit, please? I am sure the honourable gentleman is returning to

1:55:16 > 1:55:21the bill.I am getting very close and thank you for your intervention.

1:55:21 > 1:55:27I just need to make that quotation clear, it is not my words, it is the

1:55:27 > 1:55:31words that I am quoting from the article that said the lesson of the

1:55:31 > 1:55:35continent is clear, to let in more immigrants than you can handle leads

1:55:35 > 1:55:40to trouble, but to admit more children than you can care for,

1:55:40 > 1:55:46leads to tragedy. I should also, before I wind up, I should refer to

1:55:46 > 1:55:50Germany as well. Where a similar situation has been seen were up to 1

1:55:50 > 1:55:55million refugees and migrants entered in 2015. The Telegraph

1:55:55 > 1:55:59reporter, obviously, off a terrible incident on December the 19th which

1:55:59 > 1:56:05saw a failed asylum seeker from Tunisia allow a truck into a

1:56:05 > 1:56:12Christmas market stand in Berlin leaving 12 people dead. -- plough a

1:56:12 > 1:56:19truck. Perhaps no event was more disgusting, more disgraceful than

1:56:19 > 1:56:23the events on New Year's Eve 2015 in Cologne where the BBC reported that

1:56:23 > 1:56:28more than 1000 criminal complaints were filed, and was of them alleging

1:56:28 > 1:56:32sexual assault. An officer with the federal police put in his report

1:56:32 > 1:56:37about that night, saying that women, unaccompanied or not, had to run a

1:56:37 > 1:56:44literal gauntlet of heavily intoxicated men. It was impossible

1:56:44 > 1:56:48to describe the situation we were confronted with, Chaos could have

1:56:48 > 1:56:52lead to injuries. That is a consequence, while a majority of

1:56:52 > 1:56:56Germans would still say, the refugees...

1:57:07 > 1:57:12The UK has the potential to face similar issues. One issue I want to

1:57:12 > 1:57:16talk about as I begin to close, and I suspect the members opposite will

1:57:16 > 1:57:22be delighted to hear me begin to close, is that learning English is

1:57:22 > 1:57:26central for integration in British society. In giving refugees

1:57:26 > 1:57:30opportunities, and in the case of 20,000 children resettled since

1:57:30 > 1:57:382010, and education. But this Bill does not deal with this, with

1:57:38 > 1:57:43integration or opportunities. It does not think through the

1:57:43 > 1:57:46implications it would cause, it does not think about the hard-working

1:57:46 > 1:57:52people up and down our land to have aspirations for their families also.

1:57:52 > 1:57:56Hard-working people who should not suffer because of the strain on

1:57:56 > 1:58:04public services that could be created by this policy. In

1:58:04 > 1:58:08conclusion, the present family reunion policy is designed to

1:58:08 > 1:58:12provide a safe and legal route with no application fee to be paid, for

1:58:12 > 1:58:17those dependent family members to join their refugee family in the UK.

1:58:17 > 1:58:21This avoids the need for family members to make dangerous journeys

1:58:21 > 1:58:25to seek protection. I have highlighted many other excellent

1:58:25 > 1:58:28refugee resettlement schemes, and it is crucial our efforts are

1:58:28 > 1:58:32concentrated on making sure these existing schemes are used to full

1:58:32 > 1:58:36effect and that the current law works properly and effectively

1:58:36 > 1:58:40without the need for family members to make dangerous journeys. This way

1:58:40 > 1:58:46we can help people who need it most. Anyone can provide individual heart

1:58:46 > 1:58:48wrenching situations where the current legislation does not work

1:58:48 > 1:58:54for an individual, but it is easy to vote for something here without

1:58:54 > 1:58:57thinking through the consequences. It is easy to get caught up in

1:58:57 > 1:59:00virtue signalling without a second thought but the men, women and

1:59:00 > 1:59:04children we are here to represent. It is easy to cast aside the views

1:59:04 > 1:59:09of the British people, as some did opposite, who are generous people,

1:59:09 > 1:59:12happy to provide a beacon of hope to so many around the world, but who

1:59:12 > 1:59:17want to see their money went well spent and to want to look after

1:59:17 > 1:59:21their own families. To do so would be wrong for the British people. We

1:59:21 > 1:59:25must do what is best for those who are at risk of being trafficked or

1:59:25 > 1:59:30making life-threatening journeys. You must do what is best for the

1:59:30 > 1:59:35millions of refugees, of whom we can help more and to greater effect by

1:59:35 > 1:59:37providing billions in aid to save them in the lands they call their

1:59:37 > 1:59:43own. We must do what is best to keep control of our system and to protect

1:59:43 > 1:59:46the hard-working, decent, charitable, but silent majority

1:59:46 > 2:00:00across the United Kingdom.Shame! Shame!Order!I thank my honourable

2:00:00 > 2:00:07friend for bringing this is Bill to Parliament, in contrast to the

2:00:07 > 2:00:11previous member, he doesn't know the difference between a migrant and

2:00:11 > 2:00:16refugee angiography hasn't read this Bill. I thank my constituents, all

2:00:16 > 2:00:19of whom support this Bill and to have contacted me in the run-up to

2:00:19 > 2:00:28this debate. We must remember that today, we face unprecedented times.

2:00:28 > 2:00:33Over 65 million people around the world have been forced from their

2:00:33 > 2:00:36homes due to conflict, persecution and the effects of climate change.

2:00:36 > 2:00:41That is the entire population of the UK. Over 22 million of these

2:00:41 > 2:00:46refugees, and half of them are children. Everyone in this house has

2:00:46 > 2:00:49been a child, so let's keep this at the heart of what we are talking

2:00:49 > 2:00:54about today. Many have been torn apart from their families, disparate

2:00:54 > 2:00:58to be reunited. They are being kept apart thanks to bureaucratic hurdles

2:00:58 > 2:01:04and UK policy. Our rules are restrictive and on fear and the

2:01:04 > 2:01:07refugees who have reached safety in the UK can find it impossible to

2:01:07 > 2:01:11bring their family members to join them. Currently, the only family

2:01:11 > 2:01:15member is allowed to join adult refugees in the UK are their partner

2:01:15 > 2:01:20and dependent children, all me if they had under the age of 18.

2:01:20 > 2:01:23Unaccompanied children granted refugee status have no right to

2:01:23 > 2:01:28reunite with any family member. This means those family members who are

2:01:28 > 2:01:32separated and remain outside the UK are left with the invidious choice

2:01:32 > 2:01:38of staying out in the dangerous places or embarking on treacherous,

2:01:38 > 2:01:42expensive, unregulated journeys. Or May after surviving this journey and

2:01:42 > 2:01:49reaching our shores does the UK recognise their family members.

2:01:49 > 2:01:56Let's not forget last year, 3000 people died crossing the dangerous

2:01:56 > 2:01:59journey across the Mediterranean. The disgraceful border that the EU

2:01:59 > 2:02:05has put up against the shores of northern Africa.Would he agree with

2:02:05 > 2:02:11me that there are many excellent volunteers in the Mediterranean area

2:02:11 > 2:02:15to assist those people in desperate need, and that sometimes, that part

2:02:15 > 2:02:20of the world is looking more like a cemetery and somewhere where we are

2:02:20 > 2:02:26actually saving people's lives?I wholeheartedly agree. Had it not

2:02:26 > 2:02:30been for the support of these volunteers, the numbers would likely

2:02:30 > 2:02:35be far greater than I am reading here today. Additionally, legal aid

2:02:35 > 2:02:39has not been made available for refugee family reunion since 2012,

2:02:39 > 2:02:45which makes it even more difficult. Recent report by Oxfam and the

2:02:45 > 2:02:48refugee Council highlights negative rules. Overwhelming evidence finds

2:02:48 > 2:02:53at reuniting refugee families of some the best chance of living

2:02:53 > 2:02:57settled and fulfilling lives. No one in this house would not want that,

2:02:57 > 2:03:04I'm sure. Separation can have a devastating impact. Rehabilitation

2:03:04 > 2:03:09from automatic experiences and the ability to adapt. I want to turn my

2:03:09 > 2:03:13attention towards the Bill. It has cross-party support and seeks to do

2:03:13 > 2:03:17three things. I will be six linked, because some people clearly don't

2:03:17 > 2:03:23understand what it is about. Firstly, it expands the criteria on

2:03:23 > 2:03:27who qualifies as a family member, so young people who have turned 18 and

2:03:27 > 2:03:31elderly parents can live in safety with their families in the UK. It

2:03:31 > 2:03:35will also give unaccompanied refugee children the right to sponsor the

2:03:35 > 2:03:47whole family so they can rebuild their lives together in a new

2:03:47 > 2:03:57community. It's not rocket science. I am proud that Scotland has a long

2:03:57 > 2:04:02history of welcoming refugees. Over the past two years, communities have

2:04:02 > 2:04:06demonstrated a compassion and understanding by welcoming over 2000

2:04:06 > 2:04:11Syrian refugees, one of whom I spoke about here in the chamber on Monday.

2:04:11 > 2:04:17I heard comments today that refugees are driven by an centre. He as an

2:04:17 > 2:04:22incentive. On Tuesday, that same person heard from his family, that

2:04:22 > 2:04:26both his cousin and uncle had been killed. If that is an incentive,

2:04:26 > 2:04:31then I think we should all recognise that is one we all share is very

2:04:31 > 2:04:36important and why people become refugees in the first place. We have

2:04:36 > 2:04:43a saying in Scotland and it's a welcome seeing, we are all Jock

2:04:43 > 2:04:46Samson's parents. And we have another saying, Scotland is not fill

2:04:46 > 2:04:53up. That simple yearning we all have to be with her mum, dad, son or

2:04:53 > 2:04:57daughter. Family reunion is also a safe and legal routes of protection

2:04:57 > 2:05:02that refugees can pursue in order to bring loved ones of the UK. The

2:05:02 > 2:05:05current system for uniting families is stacked against those who need it

2:05:05 > 2:05:11and it is stacked needlessly. We need to introduce humanity into the

2:05:11 > 2:05:17system and this Bill does just that. Lastly, after being out for a light

2:05:17 > 2:05:21refreshment with colleagues, I was on my way back here to my home and I

2:05:21 > 2:05:24went through Liverpool Street station. If anyone has stopped for

2:05:24 > 2:05:31the moment there, you will see the bronze statue about British values.

2:05:31 > 2:05:3710,000 children who came across years during the Second World War,

2:05:37 > 2:05:40fleeing persecution in Nazi Germany. What we talked about today is

2:05:40 > 2:05:49several hundred. I think we can all get up to that job, surely.Would

2:05:49 > 2:05:53you agree that those parents send their children here to keep those

2:05:53 > 2:05:58children safe, not so that they could join them? Although, isn't it

2:05:58 > 2:06:06a pity we could not make that facility?I share every word that

2:06:06 > 2:06:12has been said by the Honourable member. Thank you. Lastly, this is

2:06:12 > 2:06:17about humanity. All of us are human, all of us happy children and that is

2:06:17 > 2:06:27why I ask you all to support this Bill.I am delighted to be a sponsor

2:06:27 > 2:06:31of this Bill and is supported and I congratulate the honourable member

2:06:31 > 2:06:35for bringing it forward. I pay tribute to the work of the British

2:06:35 > 2:06:41Red Cross and others who have done a great deal to assist this matter. I

2:06:41 > 2:06:47was a member of the Conservative Party when Ted Heath ) admitted

2:06:47 > 2:06:51refugees from Ugandan Asia. I am proud of that. In my community now,

2:06:51 > 2:06:58we have a happy and prosperous community of former Ugandan Asians,

2:06:58 > 2:07:03no proud British people. That is the spirit of my party and I hope

2:07:03 > 2:07:10members across the house will remember. That is the spirit in

2:07:10 > 2:07:16which my honourable friend spoke earlier. Other contributions have

2:07:16 > 2:07:23perhaps not come up to that spirit. I simply say this, this is a Bill

2:07:23 > 2:07:28which is consistent with government policy. Government policy, well

2:07:28 > 2:07:32explained by my honourable friend, has sought to address real issues. I

2:07:32 > 2:07:35don't criticise anything the government has done in relation to

2:07:35 > 2:07:39the work we have done to support refugees in the region, to try and

2:07:39 > 2:07:44make it possible to make new lives nearer to home rather than to embark

2:07:44 > 2:07:49on dangerous journeys. All of that is right. The money we have

2:07:49 > 2:07:53invested, all that is good. And this Bill does not seek to criticise or

2:07:53 > 2:08:00undermine that in any way. It deals with the specific area of the law in

2:08:00 > 2:08:05relation to family reunion, a concept which is accepted in our law

2:08:05 > 2:08:09and indeed, is accepted in government policy. The issue is,

2:08:09 > 2:08:15however, that in practice, some areas of the law do not work well or

2:08:15 > 2:08:18fail. The Bill does no more than try to improve the law in that regard

2:08:18 > 2:08:24and make it work in a favour fashion, for, as has been observed,

2:08:24 > 2:08:31a very small number of people. The real issues about pull factors, be

2:08:31 > 2:08:35they right or wrong, are addressing other policy initiatives that the

2:08:35 > 2:08:39government has put in place, that nothing to do with this Bill. This

2:08:39 > 2:08:44is a modest but very useful measure and it would do well to keep in

2:08:44 > 2:08:51context. I want to deal with a couple of points. Yes, the position

2:08:51 > 2:08:55of legal aid in family reunion geysers is being considered by the

2:08:55 > 2:08:59Lord Chancellor and I am glad of that. The Justice select committee

2:08:59 > 2:09:03has pressed long and hard for there to be a review of that. But that

2:09:03 > 2:09:09does not mean that you should not also seek to entrench the laws in

2:09:09 > 2:09:15this Bill. It is very important, the evidence we had, there was a

2:09:15 > 2:09:18misapprehension that cases of this kind are simple and straightforward.

2:09:18 > 2:09:22The evidence clearly demonstrated from practitioners in the fields,

2:09:22 > 2:09:28British Red Cross and other lawyers, do demonstrate that in the vast

2:09:28 > 2:09:33majority of cases, it is in fact quite complicated. And you only have

2:09:33 > 2:09:38to think, genuine refugees, the genuine refugee leaves in fear. As I

2:09:38 > 2:09:43made the point earlier, they are not likely to have time or inclination

2:09:43 > 2:09:47to go to a tick box exercise as to what documentation they may need at

2:09:47 > 2:09:52some point further down the future, under regulations of which they had

2:09:52 > 2:09:56no knowledge by the very nature of things at the time they leave. They

2:09:56 > 2:10:02then have to go through the process, which is diabetic -- for perfectly

2:10:02 > 2:10:07good reasons, they have to do so and almost invariably, there will be a

2:10:07 > 2:10:11foreign language, they have to do so under circumstances of stress and

2:10:11 > 2:10:19pressure. I notice from the research of the British Red Cross, in

2:10:19 > 2:10:24something like 74% of family reunion cases, at least one of the original

2:10:24 > 2:10:28documentation that is required under current rules was missing. That is

2:10:28 > 2:10:34hardly surprising, the way these people have fled and have ended up

2:10:34 > 2:10:38here, and properly accepted, I emphasise, as refugees, under the

2:10:38 > 2:10:42legal conventions. Hardly surprising. They then have to go

2:10:42 > 2:10:47through the rigmarole of producing witness statements, affidavits, to

2:10:47 > 2:10:56explain why those missing. Or to seek to get in touch with embassies

2:10:56 > 2:10:59or consulates or powers, which by their nature, are hardly likely to

2:10:59 > 2:11:01be friendly to them to try and seek alternatives. The idea you can do

2:11:01 > 2:11:04that without legal assistance seems to me wrong, and if anyone socks to

2:11:04 > 2:11:08practitioners and judges, they will tell you that much time is wasted,

2:11:08 > 2:11:12both in our court system and for people and difficult circumstance,

2:11:12 > 2:11:17where early legal advice could in fact, not only have potty just

2:11:17 > 2:11:30outcome, but probably would have saved money for the system as well.

2:11:30 > 2:11:34Secondly, at the moment, the issue around exceptional cases is in

2:11:34 > 2:11:42guidance. That is something that, in practice, the bar on these cases is

2:11:42 > 2:11:46extremely high, being rare is the phrase that is used. That may go

2:11:46 > 2:11:49further than is appropriate, particularly without legal advice to

2:11:49 > 2:11:53help you through the minefield as to how you get over it, or not, the

2:11:53 > 2:12:00bar. The Bill seeks to put that same principle but that is an exceptional

2:12:00 > 2:12:09case into statute and that has the advantage of converting different

2:12:09 > 2:12:16rights. I will give way.

2:12:16 > 2:12:22I agree with most of what he said. There is another problem, people are

2:12:22 > 2:12:27meant to believe it takes 13 weeks when it takes months. That can cause

2:12:27 > 2:12:34unnecessary hardship and delays and anxiety. He is entirely right. Any

2:12:34 > 2:12:39delay in any kind of tribunal case causes pressure and hardship and

2:12:39 > 2:12:42makes far less effective justice because the longer things drag on,

2:12:42 > 2:12:47the harder it is to make sure evidence is good and genuine. It is

2:12:47 > 2:12:52particularly hard in cases like this. I do hope that honourable

2:12:52 > 2:12:55members will support this bill and if they do not feel they can support

2:12:55 > 2:13:00it or they think that changes are needed, that they will not prevent

2:13:00 > 2:13:09it going forward. We will see changes and improvements can be made

2:13:09 > 2:13:18at the committee stage.As someone who believes passionately, someone

2:13:18 > 2:13:24who believes passionately that I joined the party of Harold Macmillan

2:13:24 > 2:13:28and indeed of Margaret Thatcher, who did a great deal to support the

2:13:28 > 2:13:34communities that came from East Africa when she became leader of our

2:13:34 > 2:13:37party, at I hope no one will stand in the way of this bill making

2:13:37 > 2:13:50progress today.Thank you. Let me begin by thanking the honourable

2:13:50 > 2:13:54member who has introduced this bill and all the other members who have

2:13:54 > 2:13:59signed to support this bill. Deputy Speaker, I want to start by putting

2:13:59 > 2:14:08on record my thanks for the joint group of Oxfam, Red Cross, refugee

2:14:08 > 2:14:11Council, UNHCR and the UN International and many other

2:14:11 > 2:14:17charities for their campaign on this issue. The coalition of charities

2:14:17 > 2:14:21shows the breadth and the strength of support for a refugee family

2:14:21 > 2:14:29reunion. And we have also seen this morning that many members have put

2:14:29 > 2:14:32forward clear and convincing arguments in support of the bill

2:14:32 > 2:14:37today. I will use my time, which will be brief, because I want to

2:14:37 > 2:14:45ensure that we do have a vote on this, to outline why the Bill

2:14:45 > 2:14:49appeals to Labour values of fairness, respecting human rights

2:14:49 > 2:14:55and protecting the vulnerable in our society and therefore, why we will

2:14:55 > 2:14:59be supporting it. The Labour Party believes in respect for human

2:14:59 > 2:15:05rights, they are at the centre of our approach to foreign policy,

2:15:05 > 2:15:09development and treatment of migrants and refugees on our soil.

2:15:09 > 2:15:18This includes the right to family life. At the moment, the definition

2:15:18 > 2:15:23of who is considered close family for the purposes of family reunion

2:15:23 > 2:15:30is narrow. It includes the spouse or a partner of an adult refugee

2:15:30 > 2:15:35ordered their dependent children under the age of 18. It does not

2:15:35 > 2:15:41include Young siblings, elderly parents or older dependent children.

2:15:41 > 2:15:45Doesn't he agree that the small change of allowing families to

2:15:45 > 2:15:48sponsor their immediate families would be an easy change which would

2:15:48 > 2:15:52affect a small number of child refugees but we have an impact in

2:15:52 > 2:15:58the way that we treat child refugees in this country?Thank you. Let me

2:15:58 > 2:16:02thank the honourable member for his contribution. I do agree and that is

2:16:02 > 2:16:09something that I will also be saying. We have a perverse situation

2:16:09 > 2:16:12where unaccompanied children are not allowed to bring their close family

2:16:12 > 2:16:20members to join them in the same way as an adult can. These are already

2:16:20 > 2:16:27some of the most vulnerable children in our society, they face language

2:16:27 > 2:16:31and cultural barriers on top of the trauma of being forced to flee war

2:16:31 > 2:16:36and violence. We are one of the only countries in Europe to further deny

2:16:36 > 2:16:42them the right to reunite with their families. Evidence shows that

2:16:42 > 2:16:47refugees who are not permitted to be joined by close relatives struggle

2:16:47 > 2:16:54to integrate. It is clear that so long as there are push factors of

2:16:54 > 2:16:57war, violence and persecution, people will be forced to flee from

2:16:57 > 2:17:04their homes. Safe and legal routes to family reunion interrupts the

2:17:04 > 2:17:11work of smugglers and people traffickers. This side of the House

2:17:11 > 2:17:18welcomes some recent government achievements. The treaty committed

2:17:18 > 2:17:22to speeding up the process for refugees in France to join family

2:17:22 > 2:17:27members in the UK. We welcome investment in processing of Dublin

2:17:27 > 2:17:33cases and agree that we need to look at the whole route of refugees. On a

2:17:33 > 2:17:38personal level, I do believe that the Minister takes seriously her

2:17:38 > 2:17:42obligations to refugees. And at once to fulfil Britain's commitments to

2:17:42 > 2:17:48honourable -- vulnerable children in particular. Fulfilling our existing

2:17:48 > 2:17:51commitments is not enough. The government has not yet promised that

2:17:51 > 2:17:57this agreement will continue after Brexit or to bring a change to the

2:17:57 > 2:18:03UK's rules to align them with the current Dublin three permissions. In

2:18:03 > 2:18:09a recent Westminster debate, the minister said, I regarded to be an

2:18:09 > 2:18:15absolute priority to take the 480 young people we have committed to,

2:18:15 > 2:18:22under the Dubs scheme. This is encouraging, but 480 young people is

2:18:22 > 2:18:29well below the original intention of the Dubs Amendment which was to

2:18:29 > 2:18:34resettle 3000 young people. It is significantly less than the 10,000

2:18:34 > 2:18:38refugees a year that the UN has called on Britain to take. The

2:18:38 > 2:18:45refugee crisis is large and a complex challenge. Reforming the

2:18:45 > 2:18:49family reunion rules would be a simple and direct way to help

2:18:49 > 2:18:53refugees in the UK and to deter others from making the dangerous

2:18:53 > 2:19:01journey here. What ever immigration system we have, it should be managed

2:19:01 > 2:19:07fairly. At the moment, our immigration rules are complex and

2:19:07 > 2:19:12enforced inconsistently. The Red Cross found that refugee family

2:19:12 > 2:19:18reunion is not a straightforward immigration matter, only qualified

2:19:18 > 2:19:23legal advisers can deal with the significant and diverse complexities

2:19:23 > 2:19:31of the refugee family reunion process. In his article, yesterday,

2:19:31 > 2:19:36the labours Shadow Justice Secretary expressed sentiment I agree with.

2:19:36 > 2:19:45When people cannot afford to defend their rights, then they are not

2:19:45 > 2:19:51worth the paper written on. This is the case with family reunion at the

2:19:51 > 2:19:57moment. Since 2012, immigration has been outside the scope of legal aid

2:19:57 > 2:20:02in England and Wales, although not in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It

2:20:02 > 2:20:07is only fair that navigating the system up against the bureaucracy

2:20:07 > 2:20:12and resources of the Home Office, applicants should have accessed to

2:20:12 > 2:20:17legal aid. The government is currently undertaking a review of

2:20:17 > 2:20:23legal aid provision. I worry that refugee family reunion will be such

2:20:23 > 2:20:28a small but of this review, a small part of this review, that the urgent

2:20:28 > 2:20:34need in this area, could easily be overlooked. Labour's own review of

2:20:34 > 2:20:38legal aid provision is recommended that areas are family immigration

2:20:38 > 2:20:44law should also be brought back into scope. Specifically family reunion.

2:20:44 > 2:20:48Labour supports this bill because it would reintroduce legal aid for

2:20:48 > 2:20:58every family. In conclusion, we want to live in a society that is fair,

2:20:58 > 2:21:03integrated and respects human rights. We have seen some progress

2:21:03 > 2:21:09on child refugees, but there is clearly more to be done. Reforming

2:21:09 > 2:21:14family reunion rules is a simple but important step to addressing

2:21:14 > 2:21:21anomalies in our refugee system. It would affect a small number of

2:21:21 > 2:21:25people, but it would be transformational for their lives.

2:21:25 > 2:21:30Based on Labour values of fairness, human rights and protecting the most

2:21:30 > 2:21:33vulnerable, we on this side of the House will support the second

2:21:33 > 2:21:39reading and I hope the rest of the members do as well.Thank you very

2:21:39 > 2:21:46much and I am very proud to sponsor this bill. I congratulate the

2:21:46 > 2:21:50honourable gentleman opposite and endorse everything that he's said in

2:21:50 > 2:21:55his excellent opening remarks and of course I fully adopt everything that

2:21:55 > 2:21:59we have said, in particular, by my honourable friend from Chislehurst.

2:21:59 > 2:22:06Ever the lawyer, he makes the valid point that this is a very modest

2:22:06 > 2:22:10piece of legislation, it makes the existing legislation, not just

2:22:10 > 2:22:15proves that, but it also makes it considerably fairer. I would also

2:22:15 > 2:22:19join him in saying to honourable colleagues notably on this side of

2:22:19 > 2:22:31the house, if as I understand, you

2:22:34 > 2:22:36might find yourself in a position unable to support the bill,

2:22:36 > 2:22:39nevertheless, let it go through to its third reading and any of these

2:22:39 > 2:22:42problems can be arrant out. This is a small measure and it is also an

2:22:42 > 2:22:44incredibly important measure. It sends out a strong signal from these

2:22:44 > 2:22:46benches, about the sort of conservatives we are all proud to

2:22:46 > 2:22:52call ourselves and if I may make this observation, it is very easy to

2:22:52 > 2:23:00take a group of people and attached to them a label. Which actually then

2:23:00 > 2:23:05disassociate yourself from seeing each and every person in that group

2:23:05 > 2:23:13as what they are, a human being, with a story to tell. I begin my

2:23:13 > 2:23:18remarks by reminding everybody what a refugee is. Refugee is someone who

2:23:18 > 2:23:27has been forced to leave their country, forced to leave their

2:23:27 > 2:23:32country, to escape persecution, war or natural disaster. So this is not

2:23:32 > 2:23:38a free choice. You don't wake up of a morning and say, I think today I

2:23:38 > 2:23:43will leave everything I have ever known and loved for generations and

2:23:43 > 2:23:49I will make myself a refugee. And I will dwell on that in a moment.

2:23:49 > 2:23:57First, I want to pay tribute to my own conservative council. We have

2:23:57 > 2:24:01taken in four Syrian families, we have accommodated them and provided

2:24:01 > 2:24:05for them and also given them a welcome, we continue to support

2:24:05 > 2:24:10them, because each of those families is in our country for a very good

2:24:10 > 2:24:16reason, not just because they are refugees as I have described, but in

2:24:16 > 2:24:23particular, at least one member of their family suffered in a way which

2:24:23 > 2:24:26really does go beyond some of our comprehension. These are people who

2:24:26 > 2:24:31have had a family member who has either been tortured or has been the

2:24:31 > 2:24:35subject of some sort of sexual abuse or they have a particular medical

2:24:35 > 2:24:41need which means the last place they need to be is in a refugee camp or

2:24:41 > 2:24:45in the sort of accommodation that the Jordanian government has very

2:24:45 > 2:24:49rightly provided for them. There need is even greater and I am proud

2:24:49 > 2:24:54that we have given them a home in my constituency. I am proud of the work

2:24:54 > 2:25:04that

2:25:13 > 2:25:15this government done when it comes to the provision of aid for

2:25:15 > 2:25:18refugees, but if we look at more recent times, the provision we are

2:25:18 > 2:25:20making for the Rohingya Muslims in Bangladesh. When I went to Jordan,

2:25:20 > 2:25:23just over a year ago, as a guest of Oxfam with the honourable member who

2:25:23 > 2:25:26represents tooting, I have to say that that reality, that human being,

2:25:26 > 2:25:28not the label on a group of people, but meeting individuals, was one of

2:25:28 > 2:25:32the most profound things that has ever happened to me in my life,

2:25:32 > 2:25:39because I met that teacher, a man, living in two rooms, with his two

2:25:39 > 2:25:45children and his wife. In the cold, around one of those peculiar gas

2:25:45 > 2:25:53heaters that is provided. I would be very blunt, Mr Deputy Speaker, in my

2:25:53 > 2:25:58description of this remarkable man. I saw in his eyes, frankly, I saw

2:25:58 > 2:26:06Shane. In his eyes. He felt almost ashamed that he was living in these

2:26:06 > 2:26:10circumstances. I am not saying that he was a proud man in any way, but I

2:26:10 > 2:26:15would not be surprised if he was, but to find himself in those

2:26:15 > 2:26:22circumstances, this is a real human being. He did not make this a choice

2:26:22 > 2:26:30three any real desire other than to escape the real horrors of Syria. He

2:26:30 > 2:26:34left his job, he left his home, I met other people who had left

2:26:34 > 2:26:39successful businesses, it does not matter what class or trade they

2:26:39 > 2:26:45might have. They are human beings who fled terrible circumstances,

2:26:45 > 2:26:50they must have been terrible or else they would not have left!

2:26:56 > 2:27:00They scooped up the barest of possessions. They don't think, have

2:27:00 > 2:27:07I got this piece of paper, they just get out.I will give way. I have a

2:27:07 > 2:27:13similar case. A young architect who escaped from Syria, she was

2:27:13 > 2:27:19separated from her husband, and he finally, with help from my office,

2:27:19 > 2:27:24managed to get to the country. They are both practising architects now

2:27:24 > 2:27:27contributing to the country. But they escaped war-torn Syria and were

2:27:27 > 2:27:34separated. This bill will allow other such families to thrive and

2:27:34 > 2:27:43contribute to our country.There are many such examples. I went to a

2:27:43 > 2:27:48refugee camp and met a 19-year-old who had lived in a tin shed for four

2:27:48 > 2:27:53years. His father had had his own business in Syria. Again, he scooped

2:27:53 > 2:27:58up everything and fled through terror. And there was this

2:27:58 > 2:28:0419-year-old. It was a genuinely concerning and distressing sight to

2:28:04 > 2:28:08expedience. Where was his whole? He had been there for four years. He

2:28:08 > 2:28:14didn't want to be in that place. He could not work, and although our

2:28:14 > 2:28:19government is doing a fine job in providing education for his younger

2:28:19 > 2:28:23siblings, for him, where was his whole? Because the second most

2:28:23 > 2:28:28striking feature I experienced was this clear desire to go home. They

2:28:28 > 2:28:33do not want to be living in those conditions. They want to go home,

2:28:33 > 2:28:39they want to go back to the country which they are so proud of. Imagine

2:28:39 > 2:28:42if year after year after year, you could see that possibility of

2:28:42 > 2:28:50returning to your home disappearing? These are remarkable people, their

2:28:50 > 2:28:52hope, their strength, their humanity, the way they kept

2:28:52 > 2:28:57themselves together, somehow with a semblance of pride, has never left

2:28:57 > 2:29:04me. And of course, I will give way. I thank her for giving way. I too

2:29:04 > 2:29:09went to that place and what she has just said about the concern that

2:29:09 > 2:29:14people eventually lose hope. That is absolutely right. Things are not

2:29:14 > 2:29:17easy in Jordan, although they could be worse. Having made that trip,

2:29:17 > 2:29:22would she feel the concern I have about the pull factor arguments,

2:29:22 > 2:29:30that eventually it is too much by people. It is genuine concern.I

2:29:30 > 2:29:35completely understand. But I just don't believe there is any evidence

2:29:35 > 2:29:43to support it. Let us all now stop and just get real. History tells us,

2:29:43 > 2:29:46the honourable gentleman opposite went back to biblical times. We have

2:29:46 > 2:29:52referred to the plight of the Jewish people in countries like Germany.

2:29:52 > 2:29:57These are people living in the most appalling conditions, surrounded by

2:29:57 > 2:30:01war and terror, and it is day after day, it is month after month and it

2:30:01 > 2:30:07has been year after year. To suggest that you take your child and try to

2:30:07 > 2:30:14get it out of that horror, because deliberately, cruelly using it so

2:30:14 > 2:30:21that you can follow it, is frankly as appalling as it is clearly not

2:30:21 > 2:30:27right. It is verging on madness. People don't do it for that reason.

2:30:27 > 2:30:31They may well say, how the hell can I get my children out of here,

2:30:31 > 2:30:35because of the love and concern they have about child, just like the

2:30:35 > 2:30:42Jewish people did in Germany to keep that child safe. Nothing has changed

2:30:42 > 2:30:46in mankind that over the centuries, over the decades, your desired is to

2:30:46 > 2:30:56keep

2:31:03 > 2:31:06your child safe, not to use it as a route for your own escape.Let's

2:31:06 > 2:31:08crush that one. And I would say gently, people, where is the

2:31:08 > 2:31:11evidence that people are doing that? Genuine refugees, is the last thing

2:31:11 > 2:31:13they do. I will give way. I completely agree that family

2:31:13 > 2:31:15reunification is in the interests of health and humanity, but is allotted

2:31:15 > 2:31:19in bed as it can are gangs of human traffickers? It's a genuine concern,

2:31:19 > 2:31:29and if we want to safeguard families and children, we must that concern.

2:31:29 > 2:31:33I say to my honourable friend, we are talking about people who are

2:31:33 > 2:31:43already here. Whose status has been determined as genuine refugees. The

2:31:43 > 2:31:48idea that there are gangs of people smugglers in Syria, going through

2:31:48 > 2:31:53this desperate war zone, with all the destruction, looking for

2:31:53 > 2:31:57families to somehow entice them to put their children into their hands,

2:31:57 > 2:32:05this is just the stuff of fantasy. But the important point I am

2:32:05 > 2:32:12seeking, it really is the stuff of fantasy. It really, truly is. And

2:32:12 > 2:32:18what I want... Hang on. The point I am trying to get to in all of this

2:32:18 > 2:32:23is that it is beholden on all of us to conduct these important debates