0:00:00 > 0:00:02any benefit that accrues from the subsidiary actually goes to the NHS
0:00:02 > 0:00:07because it is fully owned by the public sector.Order. Urgent
0:00:07 > 0:00:13question, Alistair Carmichael.I'd like to thank you for allowing this
0:00:13 > 0:00:17urgent question and giving us a voice in this chamber today. I wish
0:00:17 > 0:00:22to ask the Secretary of State for environment, food and rule affairs
0:00:22 > 0:00:26if you'd make a statement on the progress of negotiations relating to
0:00:26 > 0:00:28future fisheries management associations after the UK leaves the
0:00:28 > 0:00:37EU.Thank you. I'd let to thank you for this opportunity to update the
0:00:37 > 0:00:42house. Can I begin by paying tribute to the hard work of ministers and
0:00:42 > 0:00:46especially the civil servants of our country's negotiating team who
0:00:46 > 0:00:49concluded an agreement on the nature and length of the implementation
0:00:49 > 0:00:58period which will help us to prepare for life after Brexit. An agreed
0:00:58 > 0:01:02text will now go to the March Council of the European Union and
0:01:02 > 0:01:06after that council at the end of this week the Prime Minister will
0:01:06 > 0:01:10update the house on Monday. The house will be aware there are
0:01:10 > 0:01:11important legal and technical questions relating to fisheries
0:01:11 > 0:01:16management which means it occupies a special position in these
0:01:16 > 0:01:21negotiations. Both the EU and our negotiators were always clear
0:01:21 > 0:01:24specific arrangements would have to be agreed for fisheries. Our
0:01:24 > 0:01:29proposal to the EU was there during the implementation period we'd sit
0:01:29 > 0:01:33alongside other coastal states as a third country and equal partner in
0:01:33 > 0:01:38annual quota negotiations and in making that case we did so after
0:01:38 > 0:01:40full consultation with representatives of the fisheries
0:01:40 > 0:01:44industry. We pressed hard during negotiations to secure this outcome
0:01:44 > 0:01:50and we are disappointed that you were not willing to move on this.
0:01:50 > 0:01:55However, it is the case that thanks to the hard work of our negotiating
0:01:55 > 0:02:00team, the text was amended from the original proposal and the commission
0:02:00 > 0:02:03have agreed to amendments to the text which provide additional
0:02:03 > 0:02:07reassurance. The revised text clarifies the UK's share of quotas
0:02:07 > 0:02:12will not change during the implementation period and the UK can
0:02:12 > 0:02:15attend international negotiations. The agreement includes an obligation
0:02:15 > 0:02:20on both sides to act in good faith throughout the implementation period
0:02:20 > 0:02:24and any attempt by the EU to operate in a way which would harm the
0:02:24 > 0:02:28fishing industry would breach that obligation. These arrangements were
0:02:28 > 0:02:32all dig-mac only apply to negotiations in December 2019 where,
0:02:32 > 0:02:41at the table, and in December 2020, we will be negotiating fishing
0:02:41 > 0:02:44opportunities as a third country and independent coastal state deciding
0:02:44 > 0:02:48who can access our waters and on what terms for the first time in
0:02:48 > 0:02:56over 40 years. It is important we use this transition period to ensure
0:02:56 > 0:03:00we can negotiate as a third country and independent coastal state in
0:03:00 > 0:03:042020 to maximise the benefits for our coastal communities to ensure we
0:03:04 > 0:03:09can control who accesses our waters, on what times and ensure we manage
0:03:09 > 0:03:13our marine resources sustainably. We are already looking at a range of
0:03:13 > 0:03:22considerations for future fishing opportunities. In the UK, exclusive
0:03:22 > 0:03:27economic zone. There is a significant prize at the end of the
0:03:27 > 0:03:30implementation period and it is important that all of us in every
0:03:30 > 0:03:40area accept this and period is necessary. For our coastal
0:03:40 > 0:03:47environment, it is an opportunity. It is critical that all of us in the
0:03:47 > 0:03:54interest of the whole nation keep our eyes on that prize.I'd like to
0:03:54 > 0:03:57thank the Secretary of State for that answer. As recently as two
0:03:57 > 0:04:02weeks ago the Prime Minister didn't see this as a necessary step. I have
0:04:02 > 0:04:07to tell him if he doesn't already know it that the mood in fishing
0:04:07 > 0:04:14communities today is one of palpable anger. This is not what they were
0:04:14 > 0:04:18promised. And the basic question the Secretary of State has to answer
0:04:18 > 0:04:25today is this. If they can let us down like this over the deal on a
0:04:25 > 0:04:28transitional period, how do we know they will not do it again when it
0:04:28 > 0:04:32comes to the final deal? When it comes to it, will they trade away
0:04:32 > 0:04:38access for waters to access for markets or anything else? Mr
0:04:38 > 0:04:41Speaker, the house needs to hear today how this bizarre arrangement
0:04:41 > 0:04:48is going to work in practice. The EU Norway deal in macro is due to
0:04:48 > 0:04:52expire at the end of this year. We thought it would be rolled over for
0:04:52 > 0:04:5712 months. Is it still going to be the case? And Swat Valley will there
0:04:57 > 0:05:06be to the EU Commission agreeing another bad heels for our feet? The
0:05:06 > 0:05:09Secretary of State should know that British boats have a particular
0:05:09 > 0:05:15problem with hate as a choke species. That is a problem for our
0:05:15 > 0:05:21fleet and nobody else. Does he really expect the other 27 member
0:05:21 > 0:05:25countries are going to come up with a solution to something that is a
0:05:25 > 0:05:31problem only for us and not for them? Mr Speaker, it is reported the
0:05:31 > 0:05:37government's Chief Whip today turned back yesterday told his backbenchers
0:05:37 > 0:05:44it isn't like the fishermen are going to vote Labour. If that is
0:05:44 > 0:05:48true, it betrays a certain attitude and the Secretary of State shouldn't
0:05:48 > 0:05:53be complacent. He should not take it for granted that in the future they
0:05:53 > 0:05:59will be voting Tory either.I'm very grateful to the honourable gentleman
0:05:59 > 0:06:04Orchestra and detailed comments. The first thing I'd happily acknowledge
0:06:04 > 0:06:07is there is disappointment in fishing communities. I know as
0:06:07 > 0:06:10someone whose father was a fish merchant and his grandparents went
0:06:10 > 0:06:15to see two fish I understand how fishing communities feel about the
0:06:15 > 0:06:20situation. I share the disappointment. The second thing is
0:06:20 > 0:06:22the honourable gentleman asks about future negotiations and the role we
0:06:22 > 0:06:28will play. There is a unique 12-month period leading up to 2019
0:06:28 > 0:06:32when at the end of 2019 in the December council the EU will argue
0:06:32 > 0:06:38on the UK's behalf the UK will be there as part of the delegation,
0:06:38 > 0:06:42consulted in order to ensure all the legitimate interests he raises are
0:06:42 > 0:06:49fairly represented. It's also the case he raises the discard ban. The
0:06:49 > 0:06:52truth is every single fishing nation is affected by it and buy a choke
0:06:52 > 0:06:56species and that we operate collectively with our neighbours in
0:06:56 > 0:07:00order to ensure that we have the correct means of marine conservation
0:07:00 > 0:07:05because unless we have a system that involves the discard ban, we can
0:07:05 > 0:07:09have overfishing which has led in the past to an unhappy outcome to
0:07:09 > 0:07:14fishing communities. The final point is that of course no one takes any
0:07:14 > 0:07:17one vote for granted, certainly not the votes of people who work so hard
0:07:17 > 0:07:21in order to make sure we have food and played. The only party in this
0:07:21 > 0:07:25house actually committed to leaving the common fisheries policy is the
0:07:25 > 0:07:32Conservative Party.
0:07:32 > 0:07:39I should say, in Fenners, our colleagues in the Democratic
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Unionist Party share that as well. It's critical that we ensure that
0:07:42 > 0:07:50leaving the common fisheries policy at the end of that, means that the
0:07:50 > 0:07:57communities that all of us have the one of representing benefit from
0:07:57 > 0:08:01what that will bring.Another secretary state knows that 45 years
0:08:01 > 0:08:04ago the fishermen felt they have a very bad deal. They want their
0:08:04 > 0:08:09fishing rights back. Can I be reassured by him that as we have
0:08:09 > 0:08:11this interim deal that we can actually register ourselves as an
0:08:11 > 0:08:17independent coastal state, so that on the 1st of January 21 we have
0:08:17 > 0:08:22complete control of our waters?Yes, my honourable friend the chairman of
0:08:22 > 0:08:25the select committee is absolutely right. One of the things we can do
0:08:25 > 0:08:31is make sure that not just from the 1st of January 2021, but in December
0:08:31 > 0:08:342020, that we are negotiating as an independent coastal state and we
0:08:34 > 0:08:39will be able to join the fishermen management association in advance of
0:08:39 > 0:08:45those, which any state has to be part of to ensure that the marine
0:08:45 > 0:08:48environment is adequately protected. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm grateful
0:08:48 > 0:08:51to the right honourable member for Orkney and Shetland for securing
0:08:51 > 0:09:01this urgent question and for the secretary state's opening comments.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03But I still have several questions. The secretary of state, alongside
0:09:03 > 0:09:05fisheries minister, have asserted time and time again that the UK
0:09:05 > 0:09:10would take back absolute control of the Borders after leaving the
0:09:10 > 0:09:12European Union and the London Fisheries Convention. Following
0:09:12 > 0:09:16those announcements, we know that the rest of the Government has been
0:09:16 > 0:09:20having very different conversations with the EU 27. The announcement
0:09:20 > 0:09:24made by the sexual state for exiting the European Union and the chief
0:09:24 > 0:09:30negotiator Michel Barnier, head of the negotiations, made clear that
0:09:30 > 0:09:34the UK would continue to be part of the fisheries policy in a
0:09:34 > 0:09:36post-Brexit transition period, extended to 2020. The announcement
0:09:36 > 0:09:42that the total allowable catch will remain unchanged during the
0:09:42 > 0:09:47transition period contradicts all previous Government statements, and
0:09:47 > 0:09:49it is understandable that many coastal MPs and fishing divinities
0:09:49 > 0:09:54feel so angry and let down. The government backed's failure to meet
0:09:54 > 0:09:58previously stated aims through negotiations is one that requires
0:09:58 > 0:10:02greater explanation and examination on the floor of the house. This
0:10:02 > 0:10:04Government must be absolutely clear about who is leading the
0:10:04 > 0:10:08negotiations on fishing and what its position is. Has the government
0:10:08 > 0:10:13backed failed to secure the desired position, as advocated by the
0:10:13 > 0:10:15fisheries minister, all was that never the position of the
0:10:15 > 0:10:20negotiating team? If the red line has moved, and the secretary of
0:10:20 > 0:10:24state tell the house if there has been an exchange and what wasn't
0:10:24 > 0:10:35secured instead? Last week, I asked the Fisheries Minister if he had
0:10:35 > 0:10:41seen the negotiation, and what was the response? He said at the end of
0:10:41 > 0:10:43the day does not matter what the European Union asks for, but what we
0:10:43 > 0:10:48are prepared to grant it. Can the secretary of state be explicit in
0:10:48 > 0:10:52outlining what the Government is prepared to grant the EU in relation
0:10:52 > 0:10:55to fisheries? Can he also inform the house what the transition
0:10:55 > 0:10:59arrangement with EU will mean for the London Convention? Sexual state
0:10:59 > 0:11:04will have seen the comments from the less than satisfied fishing -- the
0:11:04 > 0:11:08Secretary of State will have seen the comments from less than fishing
0:11:08 > 0:11:13amenities. It must have a sustainable approach at its very
0:11:13 > 0:11:16core. What we now need from the Government is a move away from the
0:11:16 > 0:11:19chaotic approach we have seen this week, and instead honesty and
0:11:19 > 0:11:23clarity about the negotiating position and exactly what that
0:11:23 > 0:11:28means, Mr Speaker, for the fishing industry.I am grateful to the
0:11:28 > 0:11:32honourable lady for her questions. The first thing to make clear is
0:11:32 > 0:11:36that the London Fisheries Convention we will be leaving, and we will be
0:11:36 > 0:11:39out of that, and the Common fisheries policy, by the time the
0:11:39 > 0:11:43fermentation period ends. It is also important to recognise that during
0:11:43 > 0:11:50the period that the fermentation period covers, it will be the case
0:11:50 > 0:11:54that our share of total allowable catch will not be altered. This is a
0:11:54 > 0:11:58protection during the period of 2019 for all of those that want to make
0:11:58 > 0:12:01sure that we have, during that period, the stability required in
0:12:01 > 0:12:07order to prepare for the additional opportunities that will come at the
0:12:07 > 0:12:10end of this fermentation period. The critical point remains that the
0:12:10 > 0:12:16dividing line, I hesitate to say it redline, but the dividing line
0:12:16 > 0:12:19between the Government and its supporters and those that are its
0:12:19 > 0:12:21critics is that we believe when we leave the European union we should
0:12:21 > 0:12:24leave the Common Fisheries Policy. It is not the position of any other
0:12:24 > 0:12:27party in this house that we should leave the Common Fisheries Policy
0:12:27 > 0:12:30and take advantage of the opportunities that accrue. In that
0:12:30 > 0:12:34regard, the comments of my right honourable friend about the capacity
0:12:34 > 0:12:41of the UK to say what it will accept and what it will not accept refers
0:12:41 > 0:12:44clearly and unambiguously to what will occur after the implimentation
0:12:44 > 0:12:48period ends and we are an independent coastal state outside
0:12:48 > 0:12:55the European Union.Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent
0:12:55 > 0:13:00question. I think it shows the level of interest in this subject across
0:13:00 > 0:13:03the house. I am sure the secretary of state will understand that there
0:13:03 > 0:13:08is no way I can sell this deal in the transition period as anything
0:13:08 > 0:13:15like a success to fishing amenities in Moray, Scotland or the UK. Can
0:13:15 > 0:13:17the Secretary of State confirm that when we leave the Common Fisheries
0:13:17 > 0:13:23Policy in 2020 we will have full control over fish stocks and vessel
0:13:23 > 0:13:30access? If fishing amenities feel let down and anger that this
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Government is doing at the moment, they need that guarantee.That will
0:13:33 > 0:13:36be the case across the north-east of Scotland and across the United
0:13:36 > 0:13:40Kingdom, people will be disappointed that the proposal that we sought to
0:13:40 > 0:13:45ensure that would apply for 2019 did not apply for that year. I think it
0:13:45 > 0:13:49is also important to recognise that this is a 12 month additional
0:13:49 > 0:13:57extension to the maintenance of the EU
0:13:57 > 0:14:00extension to the maintenance of the EU, and we accept that to secure the
0:14:00 > 0:14:03greater prize, which he is right to remind the house is only available
0:14:03 > 0:14:08if we leave the Common Fisheries Policy, take back control and make
0:14:08 > 0:14:10absolutely clear to other countries that access and quotas will be in
0:14:10 > 0:14:19our hands.Mr Speaker, with the Conservatives it is always somebody
0:14:19 > 0:14:25else's false, Mr Speaker. When the Conservatives tag -- somebody else's
0:14:25 > 0:14:32fault. When they took us into the Common Fisheries Policy, Scotland's
0:14:32 > 0:14:35fishermen were described as expendable. We are used to Scottish
0:14:35 > 0:14:38Tory sell-outs, but even Scotland's fishermen will be surprised how
0:14:38 > 0:14:44quickly that one was turned around. Will the Minister tell me at what
0:14:44 > 0:14:46point the fishermen became a bargaining chip, or has that been
0:14:46 > 0:14:51the case all along? Does he agree with me that we are now in the worst
0:14:51 > 0:14:55of all worlds, that we are in the Common Fisheries Policy, but no say,
0:14:55 > 0:15:00and will he also tell me why, over the years, the SNP has proposed
0:15:00 > 0:15:04changes to bring greater control over fishing policies, but they have
0:15:04 > 0:15:08been rejected? Does he agree with me that it is because it is a big
0:15:08 > 0:15:11industry in Scotland, important to the Scottish Government, but means
0:15:11 > 0:15:14nothing at Westminster?
0:15:18 > 0:15:20Mr Speaker, psychologists have a phenomenon called projection, it
0:15:20 > 0:15:23means when you describe someone else you are really talking about
0:15:23 > 0:15:27yourself. It is really interesting that the Scottish National Party
0:15:27 > 0:15:31spokesman should talk about always blaming somebody else. It always
0:15:31 > 0:15:35being somebody else's fault. For a party that has raised grievance to
0:15:35 > 0:15:44an artform, they have a downed cheek making that case. They have a
0:15:44 > 0:15:53particular cheek making that case, because it is the Scottish
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Nationalists's policy to stay in a customs union and the Common
0:15:56 > 0:16:04Fisheries Policy. The party that is committed to giving Scottish
0:16:04 > 0:16:06fishermen and all fishermen across the United Kingdom a brighter future
0:16:06 > 0:16:11by leaving the Common Fisheries Policy is this party and this
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Government. I'm afraid the 90 seconds of concentrated... What is
0:16:15 > 0:16:21the word? It is probably unparliamentary. The 90 seconds that
0:16:21 > 0:16:26we just heard from the gentleman, I think, will be met with the contempt
0:16:26 > 0:16:30it deserves.I think it was 56 seconds. The honourable gentleman
0:16:30 > 0:16:36has involved in some statistical rounding. John Redwood?Will the
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Government go to the council that we can say the deal from the EU is
0:16:39 > 0:16:44unacceptable, that we voted to take back control of fish, money, Borders
0:16:44 > 0:16:48and laws, we have accepted a two year, nine month transitional
0:16:48 > 0:16:52period, so will the Government just get on with it?I completely
0:16:52 > 0:16:54understand the Right Honourable Gentleman's feelings on this matter.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58I want to reassure him that our negotiating team negotiated hard
0:16:58 > 0:17:09coming good faith, and armed with the support of our fisheries
0:17:09 > 0:17:12industry to try to get the best possible deal. We did not get
0:17:12 > 0:17:15everything we wanted, but it is the case that it is the view of this
0:17:15 > 0:17:17Government, and I think the majority of people in this house, that we
0:17:17 > 0:17:20need to make sure that this negotiation period succeeds to get
0:17:20 > 0:17:23the greater prize that Brexit gives at the end of it.I would like to
0:17:23 > 0:17:26congratulate the honourable member for submitting this urgent question.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30The truth is that the Tories are treating this industry as
0:17:30 > 0:17:33expendable. The Secretary of State talked about revival. But industry
0:17:33 > 0:17:37can't revive based on the status quo the Government has delivered on the
0:17:37 > 0:17:41CFP. Does he understand why my constituency, Great Grimsby, will
0:17:41 > 0:17:44see this as a total sell-out, with not even a say at the negotiating
0:17:44 > 0:17:49table for the next two years?It is not the case that anybody on this
0:17:49 > 0:17:52side of the house regards fishing communities or the fishing community
0:17:52 > 0:18:04as expendable. That is why we are
0:18:08 > 0:18:10investing more in our top-level marine scientific advisory bodies,
0:18:10 > 0:18:12why we are investing more in the marine management organisations that
0:18:12 > 0:18:14will be responsible for making sure our fisheries industry is effective.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16Why we are investing more in protection vessels to ensure that
0:18:16 > 0:18:19the opportunities, DC opportunity from outside the CFP can be properly
0:18:19 > 0:18:21taken advantage of. The idea we don't care about fisheries and the
0:18:21 > 0:18:24idea we are not investing in their future, it is not true. The
0:18:24 > 0:18:25honourable lady may express disappointment. I will frankly
0:18:25 > 0:18:27expressed his appointment that we did not secure everything we wanted
0:18:27 > 0:18:30in these negotiations. It is vitally important we all focus on the bigger
0:18:30 > 0:18:33prize ahead, and I can completely understand why there are some
0:18:33 > 0:18:37people, and I exempt the honourable lady, who wants to make partisan
0:18:37 > 0:18:39points. But the future of the fishing industry is bigger than
0:18:39 > 0:18:48that.Mr Speaker, why won't my right honourable friend and Sir
0:18:48 > 0:18:53specifically the question raised by our honourable friend for Moray? Why
0:18:53 > 0:18:57will he not give a guarantee that in 2020 we will take back control over
0:18:57 > 0:19:03our fishing and our waters?I had believed, and I must apologise to
0:19:03 > 0:19:08the house if I did not make it clear, that I made it clear in my
0:19:08 > 0:19:12original statement that even before the transition period ends, we will
0:19:12 > 0:19:15be negotiating as an independent coastal state. I hope that is
0:19:15 > 0:19:18sufficient guarantee and reassurance to my right honourable friend, as
0:19:18 > 0:19:25well as my honourable friend, the member for Moray.Given we export
0:19:25 > 0:19:28such a large proportion of prawns and other shellfish to Europe,
0:19:28 > 0:19:35shouldn't we have the freest possible trade with Europe?Yes.
0:19:35 > 0:19:36Jacob Rees-Mogg?
0:19:40 > 0:19:44I am slightly concerned by my right honourable friend's tone in relation
0:19:44 > 0:19:47to negotiations that the European Commission would not allow us
0:19:47 > 0:19:50something. In a negotiation, surely it is a question of what importance
0:19:50 > 0:19:54we put on something as to whether we get it? Therefore, I ask my right
0:19:54 > 0:20:00honourable friend what did we get in return?The big prize that we have
0:20:00 > 0:20:03secured is an implimentation period that allows us as a country to
0:20:03 > 0:20:05prepare for all of the benefits Brexit will bring. Having campaigned
0:20:05 > 0:20:15with the Right Honourable Gentleman ensure that Britain can leave the
0:20:15 > 0:20:18European Union, it is important we do so in good order. It allows us
0:20:18 > 0:20:21the time and space to do just that. As the sector stayed well knows,
0:20:21 > 0:20:25meetings of the fisheries Council tend to go on into the early hours.
0:20:25 > 0:20:31-- the secretary of state. Could he clarify, under the terms of the
0:20:31 > 0:20:36transitional agreement, whether Britain will have the possibility of
0:20:36 > 0:20:42being in the room when those decisions are made, or does Article
0:20:42 > 0:20:46125 of the draft agreement mean that we will be able to provide comment?
0:20:46 > 0:20:50If we can only provide comments, what impact does he expect the
0:20:50 > 0:20:54comments to have one final decisions are taken in the meeting itself?It
0:20:54 > 0:21:00is very clear we will be consulted, not just consulted in a perfunctory
0:21:00 > 0:21:05way. The scientific advice and evidence that our top-level marine
0:21:05 > 0:21:09scientists generate will also shape the negotiations. It is only for one
0:21:09 > 0:21:14year, December 19, that we will be in that position. The principle of
0:21:14 > 0:21:18the European Union operating in good faith towards the UK is one that I
0:21:18 > 0:21:21do take seriously, because if the European Union were to act in a way
0:21:21 > 0:21:25come in at one year, that would demonstrate bad faith, apart from
0:21:25 > 0:21:28the mechanisms that police the withdrawal agreement and the
0:21:28 > 0:21:30implantation period, it would also be the case that Britain, having
0:21:30 > 0:21:33taken back control of its waters, might be in a position to be less
0:21:33 > 0:21:39generous than the EU would want us to be.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43The economy of Cleethorpes and its adjoining towns have never really
0:21:43 > 0:21:46recovered from what locals see as the betrayal in the original
0:21:46 > 0:21:54negotiations to enter the EU. During the times, successive governments
0:21:54 > 0:21:58have not given sufficient attention to coastal communities. Can the
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Secretary of State assure me that he and other government departments
0:22:01 > 0:22:05will support these coastal communities to a greater extent, but
0:22:05 > 0:22:11a clean now they've got to wait that little bit longer before the
0:22:11 > 0:22:15benefits of leaving the EU are fully felt?I think my friend Mike is
0:22:15 > 0:22:22right in two areas. Number-1-mac, we are the waiting longer before we are
0:22:22 > 0:22:33out of the common fisheries policy.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38As we mentioned earlier, to reverse that trend, it's important we
0:22:38 > 0:22:41recognise the particular challenges coastal communities face in the
0:22:41 > 0:22:44decline of fishing is one of acquiring attention from the
0:22:44 > 0:22:55government.I must declare an interest. My daughter Lisa Roberts
0:22:55 > 0:22:59and her partner Sean Williams bought a fishing vessel master and they are
0:22:59 > 0:23:03ambitious and excited at the start of their business venture. What the
0:23:03 > 0:23:08minister proposes means they now face a maelstrom of perishable
0:23:08 > 0:23:11foodstuffs held up at customs, continued pressure on seafood
0:23:11 > 0:23:17species and no say over quotas and alternative catches. In what way has
0:23:17 > 0:23:26and he used the fishermen and women as Brexit bait?May I wish the
0:23:26 > 0:23:31honourable lady's all the very best in taking to see. Coming from a
0:23:31 > 0:23:35family with a fishing heritage myself, I know the risks and rewards
0:23:35 > 0:23:41that come from pursuing fishing opportunities. In her very eloquent
0:23:41 > 0:23:46question she conflated a variety of issues, some to do with quotas, some
0:23:46 > 0:23:51to do with trading opportunities. When it comes to future negotiations
0:23:51 > 0:24:02over trade should be separate fishing.It is just as well the
0:24:02 > 0:24:09implementation period is shorter than was sought, isn't it?As
0:24:09 > 0:24:15ever... I have to say that my honourable friend sums up my
0:24:15 > 0:24:24thoughts with more pith and eloquence than I can aspire to.
0:24:24 > 0:24:30Sometimes, the Minister is so able he beguiles the house and we are
0:24:30 > 0:24:36unsure what he believes. Following the example he has just given, can
0:24:36 > 0:24:43he offered two yess to these questions, when we leave will be
0:24:43 > 0:24:47control fishing waters totally? Wilkie offer every fishing port
0:24:47 > 0:24:53Freeport status?I can say yes to the first. On the second, that is
0:24:53 > 0:24:59above my pay grade. As for knowing what I believe, I think the best
0:24:59 > 0:25:05guide has always been the honourable gentleman's capacity to get to the
0:25:05 > 0:25:13heart of the matter, as he does so effectively on this issue.Brixham
0:25:13 > 0:25:16in my constituency lands the most valuable catch in England so will
0:25:16 > 0:25:20the Secretary of State visit it in person to meet with all parts of the
0:25:20 > 0:25:28sector to do dig-mac discuss the serious concerns they have that the
0:25:28 > 0:25:37final deal...My honourable friend has been persistent lobbyist for
0:25:37 > 0:25:40Brixham and all those associated with that industry privately and I'd
0:25:40 > 0:25:46like to thank her for the work she has done. The industry in Brixham
0:25:46 > 0:25:51has a highly effective and able advocate and of course I will visit
0:25:51 > 0:25:55those fishermen in her constituency to explain to them how we intend to
0:25:55 > 0:25:57ensure that after the implementation period the opportunities available
0:25:57 > 0:26:05to them are theirs to enjoy.When is the Secretary of State going to
0:26:05 > 0:26:11explain to the house article 157 of the draft agreement that was
0:26:11 > 0:26:15discussed between the Secretary of State for exiting the EU and Michel
0:26:15 > 0:26:21Barnier which sets out a new joint committee between the EU and UK for
0:26:21 > 0:26:26deciding all matters in relation to the transition period including
0:26:26 > 0:26:28fisheries, citizens' rights, everything, but gives no power
0:26:28 > 0:26:34whatsoever for Parliament to have any say on any of those issues? How
0:26:34 > 0:26:39can Parliament, having heard his decision today, have this voice
0:26:39 > 0:26:45during this transition period?I know the honourable gentleman takes
0:26:45 > 0:26:50seriously his duties. One thing I'd say is there is a draft agreement
0:26:50 > 0:26:56which covers a variety of issues. I am answering questions relating to
0:26:56 > 0:27:02fishing. That draft agreement will be agreed in March, I hope. The
0:27:02 > 0:27:05Prime Minister will be here on Monday and she will be giving a
0:27:05 > 0:27:09statement then and there will be an opportunity to have the honourable
0:27:09 > 0:27:15gentleman's question answered fully. Like many fishermen across Scotland,
0:27:15 > 0:27:20I feel very badly let down by this deal because not going to take
0:27:20 > 0:27:25control of our waters as quickly as we'd hoped. Wonder if my honourable
0:27:25 > 0:27:30friend will give me the guarantee that we will seek control of our
0:27:30 > 0:27:35vessels and mortars after we finally come out of this initial period as
0:27:35 > 0:27:39we leave the EU?Can I thank the honourable gentleman for mentioning
0:27:39 > 0:27:45and raising the role of the Scottish Federation for fishing. I felt his
0:27:45 > 0:27:51response to Dave balancing the disappointment many felt that we got
0:27:51 > 0:27:55the right deal at the end of this process was a constructive approach,
0:27:55 > 0:28:00reflected in the question put by my honourable friend and it is the case
0:28:00 > 0:28:05that we will seek to secure those opportunities of the Scottish
0:28:05 > 0:28:10fishermen 's Federation and others want to secure.What a load of
0:28:10 > 0:28:14codswallop from the Secretary of State who is all out at sea on this
0:28:14 > 0:28:18issue. They will never be trusted ever again by the Scottish
0:28:18 > 0:28:21fishermen. He drew a lead line with the leader of the Scottish
0:28:21 > 0:28:27Conservatives which has gone quicker. Can he save us time and
0:28:27 > 0:28:31tell us what is the next thing the Schoeman can expect from his
0:28:31 > 0:28:36government?I have enormous affection for the honourable
0:28:36 > 0:28:47gentleman. It doesn't diminish the respecter of affection it has for
0:28:47 > 0:28:52him. It is his party's policy to remain in the single market and the
0:28:52 > 0:28:58common fisheries policy. As a result, his capacity to criticise
0:28:58 > 0:29:03any other party in this house for seeking to secure additional
0:29:03 > 0:29:05opportunities for fishermen in Scotland and elsewhere is undermined
0:29:05 > 0:29:09by the fact he doesn't believe in giving those opportunities to
0:29:09 > 0:29:17anyone.I thank the Secretary of State for his statement but also
0:29:17 > 0:29:30he'll remember his visit to New. I hate to prolong the point but will
0:29:30 > 0:29:34the Secretary of State categorically confirm that in 2021 it'll be our
0:29:34 > 0:29:43decision who fishes in UK waters from 2021, that we regain and retain
0:29:43 > 0:29:48control, and will he be announcing a fund to improve and enhance our
0:29:48 > 0:29:52vessels, airports and processing plants to prepare for that date?I
0:29:52 > 0:29:57did enjoy my visit, and I'm grateful for the honourable friend that he
0:29:57 > 0:30:02does on behalf of his constituency. It is the case Article 1 to five in
0:30:02 > 0:30:08the draft agreement makes it clear that we think fishing opportunities
0:30:08 > 0:30:14for the period of the implementation period, and given it ends in 2020,
0:30:14 > 0:30:19the December 2020's councils negotiations are not covered by this
0:30:19 > 0:30:22agreement so I can give him the reassurance he and constituents
0:30:22 > 0:30:29seek.Unlike some of those who have been trying to work themselves into
0:30:29 > 0:30:33a lather about this decision, I, along with the Secretary of State,
0:30:33 > 0:30:39did canvas to leave the common fisheries policy and the EU in
0:30:39 > 0:30:43totality but I must say to him I can remember the promises made when we
0:30:43 > 0:30:47visited Aberdeen. Many people will be alarmed and concerned about this
0:30:47 > 0:30:55particular agreement and I'd like to ask you one thing. He has said that
0:30:55 > 0:30:59during the transition period that EU will act in good faith and not seek
0:30:59 > 0:31:07to undermine existing fishing communities. Given the record to
0:31:07 > 0:31:13eight in these negotiations, how can he be sure that legislation,
0:31:13 > 0:31:15directive and rules will not be put in place which will further
0:31:15 > 0:31:20undermine the fishing industry? First of all my honourable friend
0:31:20 > 0:31:28has been a consistent campaigner to leave the EU and the CFP and the
0:31:28 > 0:31:31role he plays as a champion for those who have argued for that is
0:31:31 > 0:31:36exemplary. I sympathise with the concerns people express about the
0:31:36 > 0:31:40past record of governments with respect to the fishing industry.
0:31:40 > 0:31:45What I'd say is that the opportunities that exist after we
0:31:45 > 0:31:49leave our considerable and it is only one year, December 2019, when
0:31:49 > 0:31:54we will rely on that good-faith provision, with respect to
0:31:54 > 0:31:57fisheries. As I mentioned earlier in response to the questions from
0:31:57 > 0:32:01Labour colleagues, if the EU were to choose to act in a way in that year
0:32:01 > 0:32:05that acted against our interests, the consequences that would follow
0:32:05 > 0:32:12for all would not be happy.For decades, EU crawlers have plundered
0:32:12 > 0:32:16our waters, fished in ways that have caused damage to our marine
0:32:16 > 0:32:20environment and it seems to be that is the situation the Scottish
0:32:20 > 0:32:27Government are prepared to accept in perpetuity. Whilst I am... And,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30indeed, we further comments they don't trust the EU in the year, I'm
0:32:30 > 0:32:35afraid I haven't trusted that EU in its negotiation strategies over the
0:32:35 > 0:32:40fisheries policy for a long time. Can be Secretary of State confirm we
0:32:40 > 0:32:44will have greater control not only of our fisheries but our fishing
0:32:44 > 0:32:47processes that have been so damaging to the Marine environment and a lot
0:32:47 > 0:32:54of us would like to see the end of? Yes, it isn't the case of the
0:32:54 > 0:32:59fishing industry benefiting by being outside the CFP, but the marine
0:32:59 > 0:33:03environment benefits. And the point the Scottish Government who want to
0:33:03 > 0:33:08keep us in the CFP, they want to deny Scottish fishermen 's the
0:33:08 > 0:33:14opportunities of leaving the CFP, and, in that position, their
0:33:14 > 0:33:22protestations ring hollow this afternoon.The paradox of this is
0:33:22 > 0:33:26that conservative fishery ministers have been very successful in the
0:33:26 > 0:33:29common fisheries policy in negotiating more sustainable
0:33:29 > 0:33:37catches. In his 25 year environment plan, he talks about all fish stocks
0:33:37 > 0:33:40being recovered to and maintained at levels that can produce their
0:33:40 > 0:33:48maximum yield, which is an exact replica of the EU's CFP. In that
0:33:48 > 0:33:52plan, he neglects to mention the linked application of the
0:33:52 > 0:33:56precautionary principle to fisheries management. Can he reassure the
0:33:56 > 0:34:01house that in the future fisheries fill there will be no return to the
0:34:01 > 0:34:08bad old days of days at sea or fishing effort?A number of
0:34:08 > 0:34:10important points raised in that question. Yes, previous fishing
0:34:10 > 0:34:16ministers in this government, particular Richard Benning, have
0:34:16 > 0:34:20done a lot to improve the CFP and making a bad situation better. The
0:34:20 > 0:34:25second point is she is right that in the 25 year environment and there is
0:34:25 > 0:34:28an commitment to ensuring we follow the signs in order to ensure we have
0:34:28 > 0:34:32the best approach to making sure fish stocks are healthy and
0:34:32 > 0:34:35sustainable in the future. The broader point about the
0:34:35 > 0:34:39precautionary principle, it's clear during the time we've been in the
0:34:39 > 0:34:43EU, there have been a number of things that have worked against the
0:34:43 > 0:34:46informal interests of this country, the precautionary principle properly
0:34:46 > 0:34:52applied can be a very powerful tool in order to ensure our environment
0:34:52 > 0:34:55is protected and enhanced and we will be saying more about the
0:34:55 > 0:34:59environmental principles that have evolved in our time in the EU and
0:34:59 > 0:35:05the means by which we will keep in line with these principles in due
0:35:05 > 0:35:09course.I granted this urgent question because I was clear in my
0:35:09 > 0:35:12mind the matter warranted the attention of the House of Commons
0:35:12 > 0:35:16today. I think the judgment vindicated by the level of interest
0:35:16 > 0:35:20in participating. I am keen to accommodate the inquisitorial
0:35:20 > 0:35:25appetite of the house but that is now a premium, given there are two
0:35:25 > 0:35:31statements to follow, on a degree of brevity. It is normally demonstrated
0:35:31 > 0:35:36by the honourable gentleman the member for New Forest West but he
0:35:36 > 0:35:40has already asked his question. Can I exhort Connex to follow his
0:35:40 > 0:35:47excellent example.I'll keep this short. As my honourable friend agree
0:35:47 > 0:35:52that we owe a debt to our fishing communities? And that we must not
0:35:52 > 0:35:55guaranteed to the EU at the end of this implementation period any level
0:35:55 > 0:36:06of access is in favour of a longer term trade deal?Yes.Splendid.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09Today is Saint Cuthbert's Day so it's right to celebrate the
0:36:09 > 0:36:14wonderful seafood of Northumberland from kippers to Lindisfarne oysters
0:36:14 > 0:36:17injured by my constituents and exported around the world but should
0:36:17 > 0:36:21be coastal communities who depend on them ever have believed that a Tory
0:36:21 > 0:36:25party funded by the city would provide and prioritise a deal on
0:36:25 > 0:36:34fishing as highly as a deal on finance?It is Saint Cuthbert's day
0:36:34 > 0:36:40and Saint Cuthbert was given a gift of fish in order to sustain him. It
0:36:40 > 0:36:46is a day resident for a number of reasons. Actually, it is a
0:36:46 > 0:36:52conservative government that has been invested in all the steps
0:36:52 > 0:36:56required in order to make sure we can take advantage of the
0:36:56 > 0:37:01opportunities when we leave the CFP. We want to ensure her constituents
0:37:01 > 0:37:09and others are protected when their fishermen are engaged.Jeeves used
0:37:09 > 0:37:16to encourage Worcester to eat more fish. It is good for the brain.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19As the British fishing industry has been hammered over decades with our
0:37:19 > 0:37:23membership of the Common Fisheries Policy, we have now been given a
0:37:23 > 0:37:26guarantee we will be leaving towards the end of the implantation period.
0:37:26 > 0:37:30Could he use his good office to ensure that we find imaginative ways
0:37:30 > 0:37:35to get some support to the fishing industry as we embark into this new
0:37:35 > 0:37:39era.Yes, my right honourable friend is absolutely right. The point was
0:37:39 > 0:37:44made very well by the member for St Ives as well. We will be saying
0:37:44 > 0:37:48more, with the publication of a fisheries White Paper, but
0:37:48 > 0:37:54additional steps to prepare for life after the transition period.When
0:37:54 > 0:38:00will we actually know the detail about the great future he is
0:38:00 > 0:38:09referring to, before or after the 29th of March 2019?Before.I share
0:38:09 > 0:38:13the disappointment of north-east fishermen, with a transition deal
0:38:13 > 0:38:17that falls short of what they hoped for. Can the secretary of state
0:38:17 > 0:38:21guarantee that the first January 2021 we will leave the Common
0:38:21 > 0:38:26Fisheries Policy, take back control of our waters, set our own fisheries
0:38:26 > 0:38:30management policies, and quotas? Will he looks including that in a
0:38:30 > 0:38:35fisheries Bill? Does he share the concern that I have, and the
0:38:35 > 0:38:36Scottish fishermen is federation, that the SNP Scottish Government
0:38:36 > 0:38:41will keep us in the Common Fisheries Policy in perpetuity, and it would
0:38:41 > 0:38:48sell Scotland's fishermen out, in perpetuity?My honourable friend is
0:38:48 > 0:38:51absolutely right in every particular. It was instructive when
0:38:51 > 0:38:54the chief executive of the Scottish fishermen is federation was
0:38:54 > 0:38:57interviewed on the radio, he made it clear how disappointed he was in the
0:38:57 > 0:39:03Scottish Government's determination to keep us in the Common Fisheries
0:39:03 > 0:39:06Policy.Given the assurances that I and others over the past year were
0:39:06 > 0:39:09given right from the Prime Minister down that we would leave the Common
0:39:09 > 0:39:16Fisheries Policy in March 2019, who actually was negotiating this? And
0:39:16 > 0:39:21did they really care about fishing? It seems to me, and I would like the
0:39:21 > 0:39:25Secretary of State to answer this, did the officials actually argue
0:39:25 > 0:39:28that we could be left out right away and it would be nothing to do with
0:39:28 > 0:39:37the implementation period?A very direct question, absolutely it was
0:39:37 > 0:39:44the case. I shan't... Well, we had an immensely hard-working team of
0:39:44 > 0:39:47officials that negotiated incredibly hard on our behalf. They were in
0:39:47 > 0:39:52constant touch with ministers every step of the way. They encountered
0:39:52 > 0:39:56intransigence on the part of the EU, which was disappointing. I make no
0:39:56 > 0:40:00bones about it. One thing that cannot be faulted is the hard work,
0:40:00 > 0:40:02determination, mastery of detail and determination to get the very best
0:40:02 > 0:40:07deal for Britain of the civil servants, and I will not hear a word
0:40:07 > 0:40:18said against them.Going forward, what confidence or guarantee can you
0:40:18 > 0:40:27give that control of our seas will not be sacrificed on the altar of
0:40:27 > 0:40:32Brexit?My honourable friend is absolutely right to stress that one
0:40:32 > 0:40:35of the great prizes of Britain leaving the European Union is taking
0:40:35 > 0:40:38back control of our territorial waters. That is why we must maintain
0:40:38 > 0:40:50our eyes on that great prize at the end of the process.Mr Speaker, I am
0:40:50 > 0:40:53a daughter of a man that was a member of the Grimsby deep sea
0:40:53 > 0:40:56fishing fleet, so I know it is one of the hardest jobs in the world. It
0:40:56 > 0:41:02does not stop me understanding that the processing side of the industry
0:41:02 > 0:41:05is incredibly important to coastal communities such as Grimsby and
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Peterhead. On that basis, will the Secretary of State guarantee that
0:41:09 > 0:41:13the processing side of the fishing industry will not be sacrificed to
0:41:13 > 0:41:20other priorities in trade deal negotiations?The honourable lady
0:41:20 > 0:41:24makes a very good point. I have had productive talks with
0:41:24 > 0:41:27representatives of fish processing organisations. Absolutely, we
0:41:27 > 0:41:30appreciate they have specific demands in terms of access to other
0:41:30 > 0:41:37markets and also for Labour, which we will do everything possible to
0:41:37 > 0:41:45help them achieve.The SNP have admitted they would hand powers of
0:41:45 > 0:41:48fisheries not to Edinburgh or London, but to Brussels. Can my
0:41:48 > 0:41:51right honourable friend assure me that wouldn't happen?I can give a
0:41:51 > 0:41:55guarantee that under no circumstances would I ever adopt the
0:41:55 > 0:42:01craven and abject surrender that the Scottish Government take towards the
0:42:01 > 0:42:03European Union by accepting that the Common Fisheries Policy should
0:42:03 > 0:42:10persist ad infinitum.The future of the fishing industry as a
0:42:10 > 0:42:17politically sensitive issue in Hull, and Ukip have talked about a fishing
0:42:17 > 0:42:19fleet being re-established there. Wasn't one of the main promises that
0:42:19 > 0:42:26we would see our removal... Sorry, we would retain territorial rights
0:42:26 > 0:42:31around fishing from day one. Isn't that a promise that has been broken
0:42:31 > 0:42:37to the people Hull?We will, when implantation period ends, the
0:42:37 > 0:42:40exclusive economic zone that is ours to police and control will be ours
0:42:40 > 0:42:48to police and control.If during plantation period they can't cut the
0:42:48 > 0:42:52quota, what is to stop them increasing their quota? Having said
0:42:52 > 0:42:55that, those that were bitterly disappointed with this outcome will
0:42:55 > 0:43:00take no lectures from those that never wants to take back control.I
0:43:00 > 0:43:04entirely understand my right honourable friend's position. I
0:43:04 > 0:43:07explained a little bit earlier the good faith provisions and other
0:43:07 > 0:43:11guarantees that are there. The outcome is not what we wanted, but
0:43:11 > 0:43:13it is one that affords fishermen protection during implantation
0:43:13 > 0:43:23period.Fishermen in Plymouth feel utterly betrayed by the decision
0:43:23 > 0:43:29announced yesterday. What does this mean for the reform of the
0:43:29 > 0:43:33unworkable discards ban, especially for mixed fisheries in the
0:43:33 > 0:43:35south-west?The discard ban is necessary in order to ensure we have
0:43:35 > 0:43:44responsible management of all species. We are working on ways that
0:43:44 > 0:43:52it is applied in a way that makes sure that concerns on behalf of his
0:43:52 > 0:43:56constituents are addressed.The fishermen in Cornwall do feel very
0:43:56 > 0:43:59disappointed, and in some cases angry, and yesterday's announcement.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03Can I ask, when he is visiting Devon, if he would come further and
0:44:03 > 0:44:07meet with the fishermen of Cornwall as well? Will he lay out clearly for
0:44:07 > 0:44:11the fishermen of Cornwall that the fermentation period would only
0:44:11 > 0:44:13affect one year's quota negotiations, that the quotas will
0:44:13 > 0:44:18be protected during the time, and that by the end of the transition
0:44:18 > 0:44:22period we will be taking back control of fishing waters.Hits the
0:44:22 > 0:44:28nail on the head and I look forward to meeting him later this year.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35In defence of this negotiating debacle, the secretary of state says
0:44:35 > 0:44:39that we always knew that there would be important legal technical
0:44:39 > 0:44:45questions to be resolved. If that is so, why, less than ten days ago, did
0:44:45 > 0:44:50he and Ruth Davidson promise fishermen across the UK that we
0:44:50 > 0:44:57would be leaving the CFP in March 2019?It is the case that there are
0:44:57 > 0:45:00important questions that need to be resolved. The one thing that the SNP
0:45:00 > 0:45:10are promising is that we will never leave the CFP. What is instructive
0:45:10 > 0:45:13about the SNP is that in so many of their questions they talk about Ruth
0:45:13 > 0:45:17Davidson. They never talk about a single fishermen, species, they
0:45:17 > 0:45:22never talk about a single community. They only attacked the leader of the
0:45:22 > 0:45:30Scottish Conservatives. Why? They are feart!
0:45:31 > 0:45:37Will he confirm that in the transition agreement we will
0:45:37 > 0:45:41continue to market fish and fish products seamlessly and frictionless
0:45:41 > 0:45:48leak into the EU, and that is his aim for the time after it ends?We
0:45:48 > 0:45:51wanted to have it as friction free as possible, the trade agreement
0:45:51 > 0:45:58with the EU and with other nations. On Friday, the topic of the day was
0:45:58 > 0:46:02let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07When we joined the Common Market effort, he sold the fishing sector
0:46:07 > 0:46:15for a bowl of potage. Can he give the guarantee that they will not and
0:46:15 > 0:46:21have not been sold out by a transitional agreement that leaves
0:46:21 > 0:46:26the EU in control of fishing policy? I appreciate the issues he raises
0:46:26 > 0:46:31and I will do everything possible to address the concerns of fishermen,
0:46:31 > 0:46:34and I look forward to working with him and colleagues across the
0:46:34 > 0:46:39political divide in Northern Ireland to provide that reassurance.My
0:46:39 > 0:46:45right honourable friend is absolutely right to highlight the
0:46:45 > 0:46:50prize in agreeing a implimentation period. How will the UK voice be
0:46:50 > 0:46:57heard and respected in the quota allocation for 2020?In 2020, my
0:46:57 > 0:47:03honourable friend will be reassured to know, I hope, the UK will be
0:47:03 > 0:47:08negotiated and as an independent coastal state. It will be the case,
0:47:08 > 0:47:12the negotiations in 2019 will take place on the basis that we will be
0:47:12 > 0:47:15consulted, that our science will be part of the process by which a great
0:47:15 > 0:47:18Enigma code arrangements are reached, and the good-faith
0:47:18 > 0:47:21guarantees that I discussed earlier will be there in order to safeguard
0:47:21 > 0:47:24UK interests for the limited 12-month period.
0:47:29 > 0:47:34The quotas for 2020 will now be set by the European Union with some
0:47:34 > 0:47:37consultation from the British government. Now that the ball has
0:47:37 > 0:47:41been handed back to the European Union, what guarantees, Secretary of
0:47:41 > 0:47:46State give to the industry that we will get the ball back?My
0:47:46 > 0:47:52honourable friend again reasserts the vitally important point, worthy
0:47:52 > 0:47:56EU for any reason in 2019 to behave in a way that were contrary to our
0:47:56 > 0:48:02long-term interests, it would also be contrary to their long-term
0:48:02 > 0:48:05interests. I agree that the opportunities the transition deal
0:48:05 > 0:48:09provides... Forgive me, the opportunities at the transition deal
0:48:09 > 0:48:14are critically important and we must secure them. We have accepted a sub
0:48:14 > 0:48:17optimal outcome, but it is only for an additional 12 months and we must
0:48:17 > 0:48:23keep our eyes on the prize.Far from to use his own words a sea of
0:48:23 > 0:48:28opportunity, all this deal does is underline what the heath, Thatcher
0:48:28 > 0:48:31and major governments did when they preceded this, that the Tories are
0:48:31 > 0:48:37happy to throw Scotland's fishing industry over the side. Isn't it the
0:48:37 > 0:48:44time that he and his other Tory sprats were also discarded?Again, I
0:48:44 > 0:48:52have noticed in questions from the Scottish Nationalists ventures,
0:48:52 > 0:48:57there have been more mentions of the Scottish Tory leader, and more bad
0:48:57 > 0:49:00puns, than any references to science or economic. They will need to do
0:49:00 > 0:49:03better than name-calling and joke making if it is going to be taken
0:49:03 > 0:49:10seriously as a defender of the interests of Scottish fishermen.
0:49:10 > 0:49:14Wolf-fish and minute is up and down this country will be hanging their
0:49:14 > 0:49:19heads in shame at this discussion so far. Ted Heath in the 1970s said
0:49:19 > 0:49:24fishermen were expendable. Margaret Thatcher in the 80s signed up to the
0:49:24 > 0:49:27original Common Fisheries Policy. That consigned fishermen to decades
0:49:27 > 0:49:31of mismanagement. John Major signed up to be revised Common Fisheries
0:49:31 > 0:49:35Policy, scrapping vessels and destroying livelihoods. Given this
0:49:35 > 0:49:44continued betrayal, will things be any different post Brexit?
0:49:44 > 0:49:47Absolutely, I have enormous respect and affection for the honourable
0:49:47 > 0:49:49gentleman, who I think is a great campaigner. Respectfully, I must
0:49:49 > 0:49:55point out, I don't doubt his commitment at all, but the party
0:49:55 > 0:49:58platform on which he stands would keep imprisoned in the Common
0:49:58 > 0:50:02Fisheries Policy, as opposed to the opportunities outside, which we and
0:50:02 > 0:50:08our friends in the Democratic Unionist Party support.I think I
0:50:08 > 0:50:11make at five different Conservative Scottish MPs that asked for the same
0:50:11 > 0:50:19promise from the Secretary of State. He has been so obsessed with this
0:50:19 > 0:50:24#SNP line that he hasn't given the guarantee. Is not the case that
0:50:24 > 0:50:28Scotland could have devolved power over immigration if they left the
0:50:28 > 0:50:30European Union. Same Secretary of State promised that we would
0:50:30 > 0:50:35definitely leave the Common Fisheries Policy on March 20 19.
0:50:35 > 0:50:39That promise is worthless. Isn't that the case that any promise he
0:50:39 > 0:50:42makes to the people of Scotland in future will be just as worthless as
0:50:42 > 0:50:47those made in the past?I think it is the case that the promise that
0:50:47 > 0:50:49the Scottish National Party have made to keep us on the Common
0:50:49 > 0:50:56Fisheries Policy and the European union was come pensively rejected at
0:50:56 > 0:51:01the ballot box. There is a simple choice, that Scotland faces. Does it
0:51:01 > 0:51:05remain within the European Union or the Common Fisheries Policy under
0:51:05 > 0:51:09the SNP, or liberated if this Government has its way? On that
0:51:09 > 0:51:15choice, so much hangs, including the future of the SNP.Again, just goes
0:51:15 > 0:51:18to show that at any negotiating table you want some of there that
0:51:18 > 0:51:27will stand up for the issues that matter to you, the Brexit or the
0:51:27 > 0:51:30CFP, and if Scotland's fishing community is expendable to the
0:51:30 > 0:51:33government. At what stage did the secretary of state know that
0:51:33 > 0:51:36fisheries were going to be a bargaining chip, and what did the
0:51:36 > 0:51:41Government secure in return?
0:51:41 > 0:51:46Both sides made it clear fishery would have to be handled separately
0:51:46 > 0:51:48from the other issues in this implementation period and it was
0:51:48 > 0:51:51always clear we would have to have specific arrangements and one of the
0:51:51 > 0:51:55things that is different about fisheries is even before the
0:51:55 > 0:51:58implementation period ends we will operate independently outside the
0:51:58 > 0:52:04constraints of the EU. It is also the case that in having that
0:52:04 > 0:52:11capacity in 2020, we are in a position to secure the larger prize,
0:52:11 > 0:52:25which the SNP rejects.Right... Thank you, Mr Speaker. We know Heath
0:52:25 > 0:52:34said fishermen are expendable and Thatcher got us into the CFP. A
0:52:34 > 0:52:40quote from the head of the Danish fishermen's association. He said,
0:52:40 > 0:52:46Britain has never ever challenged the quotas. We have in every
0:52:46 > 0:52:51negotiations. It doesn't matter whether we are in the CFP not, the
0:52:51 > 0:52:56UK Government cannot be trusted. Does he agree?I enjoyed hearing the
0:52:56 > 0:53:02same quotes in the honourable gentleman's questions a few minutes
0:53:02 > 0:53:10ago. Getting repeats from the SNP is quite something. But in particular
0:53:10 > 0:53:14the point in his question he betrayed a misunderstanding of the
0:53:14 > 0:53:21relative stability which underpins the quotas.I've suggested over the
0:53:21 > 0:53:24years that only when all the fishing waters of Europe are returned to
0:53:24 > 0:53:29their own countries will the fish industries be saved and the UK must
0:53:29 > 0:53:33lead the way in that process. Will the government publicly urged the
0:53:33 > 0:53:42abolition of the CFP which has been a disaster?My admiration for the
0:53:42 > 0:53:45honourable gentleman knows no bounds and the CFP has been bad not the
0:53:45 > 0:53:50Britain but for fishing across the EU. My only hope is that he will
0:53:50 > 0:53:58have an opportunity not just to see our shared ambition be fulfilled but
0:53:58 > 0:54:01I'm hoping he will be able to persuade European colleagues to
0:54:01 > 0:54:07reform their own governments in a way which is genuinely liberating.
0:54:07 > 0:54:13Looking at the faces on the Scottish Tories opposite, never before has
0:54:13 > 0:54:20done up like a keeper been more appropriate. The UK Government
0:54:20 > 0:54:24betrays Scottish fishing communities once again. Could the Secretary of
0:54:24 > 0:54:31State explain to the bewildered constituents of my constituency will
0:54:31 > 0:54:36why he's signed them up as a disastrous -- why he signed them up
0:54:36 > 0:54:41to something he described as disastrous on worse conditions than
0:54:41 > 0:54:48they currently experience now? Can he explain why he has done that?
0:54:48 > 0:54:51Listening once again to another Scottish National Party 's spokesman
0:54:51 > 0:54:55denying the reality of their adherence to the Common fisheries
0:54:55 > 0:54:59policy, and also attempting to cover it up with a weak pun I felt what I
0:54:59 > 0:55:01was witnessing was yet another audition for someone to appear on
0:55:01 > 0:55:08Alex Salmond's arty .com talk show, a combination of bad taste and poor
0:55:08 > 0:55:16humour exhibited by so many on those benches.Order. Statement, the
0:55:16 > 0:55:30leader of the house. Andrea Letson. -- Andrea Letson.I should like to
0:55:30 > 0:55:34make a very short statement regarding business for tomorrow. The
0:55:34 > 0:55:36business for tomorrow will now be consideration of a business of the
0:55:36 > 0:55:40house motion followed by proceedings on the Northern Ireland regional
0:55:40 > 0:55:45rates and energy Bill. The house will then be asked to consider a
0:55:45 > 0:55:50further business of the house motion before moving on to proceedings on
0:55:50 > 0:55:54the Northern Ireland assembly members pay bill. Thursday's
0:55:54 > 0:55:57business will remain as previously announced, a general debate on the
0:55:57 > 0:56:00economy and I will make my usual statement announcing further
0:56:00 > 0:56:11business on Thursday. I concur.I am grateful to the
0:56:11 > 0:56:19shadow leader. That is probably the shortest statement and response in
0:56:19 > 0:56:28recent history of the house. Order, statement, the Minister for small
0:56:28 > 0:56:35business consumers and corporate responsibility. Andrew Griffiths!
0:56:35 > 0:56:42Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I am pleased to announce two
0:56:42 > 0:56:45honourable members and Right Honourable members the government
0:56:45 > 0:56:48has today published a consultation on corporate governance and
0:56:48 > 0:56:52insolvency. Copies of the consultation have been placed in the
0:56:52 > 0:57:00libraries of the house. The UK is recognised as having a leading
0:57:00 > 0:57:03international reputation for corporate governance. It gives us an
0:57:03 > 0:57:07international competitive advantage and is an important factor in making
0:57:07 > 0:57:11the UK the best place in the world in which to invest and do business.
0:57:11 > 0:57:16The government is determined to ensure our corporate governance
0:57:16 > 0:57:21regime remains the envy of the world. Large corporate failures
0:57:21 > 0:57:26happen rarely but when they do their affect on stakeholders, such as
0:57:26 > 0:57:30employees and smaller suppliers, can be very damaging. In those
0:57:30 > 0:57:34situations, it is important to ensure those in charge of the
0:57:34 > 0:57:39company acted properly and fully discharge their responsibilities.
0:57:39 > 0:57:43The government is determined to ensure our corporate governance
0:57:43 > 0:57:46framework clarifies those responsibilities, protect the
0:57:46 > 0:57:49economy and enhances public confidence while continuing to
0:57:49 > 0:57:53foster conditions for business to thrive. Last year we announced a
0:57:53 > 0:57:56number of reforms to strengthen the corporate governance framework in
0:57:56 > 0:58:02relation to executive pay, the voice of employees and wider stakeholders
0:58:02 > 0:58:06in the boardroom and corporate governance in large, privately held
0:58:06 > 0:58:10businesses. These are now being delivered and all of them will
0:58:10 > 0:58:14contribute to more robust and well founded decision-making in our large
0:58:14 > 0:58:17companies. We are determined Mr Speaker to learn the lesson from
0:58:17 > 0:58:22corporate failures such as Karelian and we believe we can do more to
0:58:22 > 0:58:29strengthen the corporate governance framework as it implies -- applies
0:58:29 > 0:58:35in corporations. We want to reduce the risk of companies failing. And
0:58:35 > 0:58:40to strengthen the responsibilities of directors of firms when they are
0:58:40 > 0:58:44in or approaching insolvency. The consultation will focus on green
0:58:44 > 0:58:48measures. Number one, considerable public concern arises when owners of
0:58:48 > 0:58:52a distressed business, including within a group of companies, sell on
0:58:52 > 0:58:57that business without proper regard for its future prospects or the
0:58:57 > 0:59:01interests of its creditors or employees. We propose to require
0:59:01 > 0:59:05directors, including directors of holding companies in respect of
0:59:05 > 0:59:09sales of subsidiaries, to have a greater regard to any future
0:59:09 > 0:59:13consequences of the sale of an insolvent or near insolvent company
0:59:13 > 0:59:17for which they are responsible. In doing so we will ensure we do not
0:59:17 > 0:59:22put barriers in the way of credible business rescue efforts. We don't
0:59:22 > 0:59:27want to make it impossible to rescue businesses in distress. Secondly,
0:59:27 > 0:59:32considerable public concern has been raised where a company in financial
0:59:32 > 0:59:37difficulty has been rescued by new investment only to find when it
0:59:37 > 0:59:42subsequently fails that the new investors have set up a series of
0:59:42 > 0:59:45complex financial schemes to protect their investment or minimise their
0:59:45 > 0:59:53losses at the expense of other creditors. We will give insolvency
0:59:53 > 0:59:56practitioners the additional necessary powers to claw back for
0:59:56 > 1:00:00the benefit of creditors money which has been siphoned off through
1:00:00 > 1:00:05complex financing arrangements. Third, concerns have been raised
1:00:05 > 1:00:09including by a number of Honourable members about the difficulties
1:00:09 > 1:00:13raised when a company has been dissolved but is then found to have
1:00:13 > 1:00:18outstanding debts or allegations of director misconduct. Often these
1:00:18 > 1:00:23devolved companies will reappear. If UNIX like in a slightly different
1:00:23 > 1:00:28form with a slightly differently and start operating again. At present,
1:00:28 > 1:00:31the insolvency service doesn't have the powers necessary to investigate
1:00:31 > 1:00:37these cases. We are determined they will. These measures will complement
1:00:37 > 1:00:40those published yesterday by the Department for Work and Pensions in
1:00:40 > 1:00:45a White Paper entitled Protecting Defined Benefit Pension Schemes,
1:00:45 > 1:00:48which puts forward stronger powers for the pensions regulator to
1:00:48 > 1:00:53prevent and punish those deliberately endangering a pension
1:00:53 > 1:00:56scheme. Corporate failures like Carillion have raised concerns about
1:00:56 > 1:01:01other aspects of corporate governance framework. I don't wish
1:01:01 > 1:01:03to anticipate the current investigations leading up to the
1:01:03 > 1:01:08failure of Carillion but I intend to use this consultation to seek views
1:01:08 > 1:01:13on a number of areas where it may be that we can do more to strengthen
1:01:13 > 1:01:16the rules within which UK companies operate. These are areas including
1:01:16 > 1:01:22whether steps should be taken to improve governance, accountability
1:01:22 > 1:01:27and internal controls within complex company group structures, whether
1:01:27 > 1:01:30there are further opportunities to strengthen the role of shareholders
1:01:30 > 1:01:34in stewarding the companies in which they have investments, and third
1:01:34 > 1:01:39whilst the payment of dividends should remain for the directors to
1:01:39 > 1:01:43decide, having regard to their obligations and guidance, whether
1:01:43 > 1:01:47legal and technical framework within which these decisions are made could
1:01:47 > 1:01:51be improved and made more transparent and fair. Whether
1:01:51 > 1:01:54decommissioning and use of professional advice by directors is
1:01:54 > 1:02:00done so without proper awareness of director's duties. And how the
1:02:00 > 1:02:04supply chain and other creditors can be better protected in the event of
1:02:04 > 1:02:07major insolvency whilst preserving interests of shareholders. The
1:02:07 > 1:02:12reforms we are proposing will help prevent corporate failure,
1:02:12 > 1:02:14strengthen the UK's business environment, contributing to the
1:02:14 > 1:02:19success of our industrial strategy and cement our reputation as one of
1:02:19 > 1:02:25the best places to work, invest, and do business. Mr Speaker, I commend
1:02:25 > 1:02:33the statement to the house.Order. Can I gently point out that members
1:02:33 > 1:02:37who were not present for the statement can't come into the
1:02:37 > 1:02:42chamber and expect to be called to ask a question. That is not on,
1:02:42 > 1:02:49sorry.I thank the Minister for his statement and for making it so on
1:02:49 > 1:02:54time, as he was. There are to make substantive proposals on claw back
1:02:54 > 1:02:58and disqualification of directors. That is revision already in
1:02:58 > 1:03:03insolvency law for claw back of assets for example assets sold at
1:03:03 > 1:03:08undervalue. There is also provision in company law for disqualification
1:03:08 > 1:03:11of directors due to incompetence or recklessness. There are proposals
1:03:11 > 1:03:16set out by the Minister on claw back are extremely unclear so can the
1:03:16 > 1:03:19minister explain how these provisions added to existing rights
1:03:19 > 1:03:24rather than repeat them? Second, there are a number of much vague
1:03:24 > 1:03:32promises, what do these mean given the insolvency law powers? How will
1:03:32 > 1:03:38these new powers stop reckless behaviour? The consideration of
1:03:38 > 1:03:42legal and technical framework within which decisions are made on payment
1:03:42 > 1:03:45of dividends and how it could be improved and made more transparent,
1:03:45 > 1:03:50what does this mean? How can they been made more transparent and how
1:03:50 > 1:03:54would that protect against the greed and excessive payments of dividends,
1:03:54 > 1:03:58as we saw with Carillion? Strengthening the role and
1:03:58 > 1:04:02responsibility of shareholders in stewarding the companies in which
1:04:02 > 1:04:08they have investment. What does this even mean? Frankly, it is
1:04:08 > 1:04:12meaningless platitude. Third, the government appears to be consulting
1:04:12 > 1:04:17rather than acting. Does the government agree it is time for
1:04:17 > 1:04:20action not consultation? They are consulting on the Taylor review
1:04:20 > 1:04:24which in itself was a consultation. What good are these consultations to
1:04:24 > 1:04:28people currently working in companies providing public services
1:04:28 > 1:04:32at risk of collapse? Fourth, the government isn't known for being
1:04:32 > 1:04:36proactive. Rather, it is always mopping up after the event. None of
1:04:36 > 1:04:42these problems are new. Companies going insolvent and leaving pension
1:04:42 > 1:04:47deficit or asset stripping are not novel, look at the case of BHS.
1:04:47 > 1:04:50These are problems the government should have already anticipated and
1:04:50 > 1:04:53I ask the Minister why it's taken the government until now to begin to
1:04:53 > 1:04:59act and only make tentative steps? Fifth, we must have a bolder and
1:04:59 > 1:05:03more imaginative approach to corporate governance. Large
1:05:03 > 1:05:06companies are not the toys of directors and shareholders, they
1:05:06 > 1:05:10don't exist merely to make a small group of people extremely wealthy.
1:05:10 > 1:05:14They are the product of the hard work and effort of their workforce
1:05:14 > 1:05:21and suppliers. They provide services which the public use. Is at the
1:05:21 > 1:05:25heart of shareholder decisions so how do today's Triposo safeguard the
1:05:25 > 1:05:30long-term interests of companies for the workforce and for the public
1:05:30 > 1:05:35good? Six, has the government made any assessment of the viability of
1:05:35 > 1:05:38inter-server and any companies with public sector contracts? What steps
1:05:38 > 1:05:41is the government taking to ensure these companies don't collapse? Will
1:05:41 > 1:05:49the government Institute Project bank accounts? Mandate and enforce
1:05:49 > 1:05:52payment of public sector contract is within 30 days and set up a new
1:05:52 > 1:05:56model which allows the government to step in when construction companies
1:05:56 > 1:06:02collapse has met all of which Labour has called on the government to do.
1:06:02 > 1:06:07Lastly, Mr Speaker, how would any of these proposals meaningfully have
1:06:07 > 1:06:10helped the workers, pensioners and suppliers of Carillion? The amount
1:06:10 > 1:06:14paid in dividends at ten two was the same as the pensions deficit over
1:06:14 > 1:06:20the same period. Has the government done any assessment of what more the
1:06:20 > 1:06:22workers, pensioners and suppliers would have received under these new
1:06:22 > 1:06:33plans. If not, why not?A little bit like a machine gun, those questions
1:06:33 > 1:06:39came thick and fast and I thank the honourable lady for them. I am
1:06:39 > 1:06:44somewhat surprised, Mr Speaker. Went two went into insolvency, the
1:06:44 > 1:06:47honourable lady at a party demanded we learn the lessons from the
1:06:47 > 1:06:54Carillion failure. We, today, just a few weeks later, have come forward
1:06:54 > 1:06:58with proposals to prevent something similar from happening and she
1:06:58 > 1:07:06criticises us for failure. The collie, her frontbencher who shadows
1:07:06 > 1:07:11me, criticised us for yet another consultation in their press freeze
1:07:11 > 1:07:16and then says Labour has launched our own consultation into corporate
1:07:16 > 1:07:21review.
1:07:21 > 1:07:30Mr Speaker, the measures here will make a massive difference to the
1:07:30 > 1:07:35prospects and the way companies are regulated to ensure a more robust
1:07:35 > 1:07:43and accountable regime in the boardroom. Yesterday, the Department
1:07:43 > 1:07:45for Work and Pensions brought through a White Paper that
1:07:45 > 1:07:51introduces a huge number of extra regulations and gives powers to the
1:07:51 > 1:07:56pension regulator to impose punitive fines, several faience, criminal
1:07:56 > 1:08:01sanctions, director disqualification. She says, what
1:08:01 > 1:08:05have we been doing over the period of time we have been in office? Of
1:08:05 > 1:08:12course, we have brought through pay ratio reporting, a new register of
1:08:12 > 1:08:18companies, we enforce shareholder opposition, strengthening the voice
1:08:18 > 1:08:29of the employees and representatives in the boardroom. She talks about
1:08:29 > 1:08:34Interserve. It would be inappropriate to give a case-by-case
1:08:34 > 1:08:38probity on businesses, because it could impact on their share price,
1:08:38 > 1:08:43and I'm sure somebody of her would understand that. She talks about
1:08:43 > 1:08:48Project bank accounts. She will be well aware that, in January, the
1:08:48 > 1:08:53consultation the Government have launched in relation to Project bank
1:08:53 > 1:08:56accounts closed, and we will be coming forward with our proposals in
1:08:56 > 1:09:02relation to that consultation in the coming weeks. She talks about
1:09:02 > 1:09:06payment within the public sector. I can inform her that the special
1:09:06 > 1:09:11manager in relation to PwC has already agreed that for companies
1:09:11 > 1:09:18that are providing services for Carillion, there will be paid in 30
1:09:18 > 1:09:22days. It is a requirement for all contractors that accept government
1:09:22 > 1:09:25contracts to pay their supply chain within 30 days. We will be coming
1:09:25 > 1:09:29forward with further proposals about how we can improve that and make it
1:09:29 > 1:09:34robust. She talks about the disqualification. Of course,
1:09:34 > 1:09:39directors can be disqualified for up to 15 years. That prevents them from
1:09:39 > 1:09:46acting as a director, taking part directly or indirectly, anyone
1:09:46 > 1:09:50contravening it is altercation is committing a criminal offence. These
1:09:50 > 1:09:54are real, punitive powers. She talks about dividends. Of course, there is
1:09:54 > 1:09:59nothing wrong, Mr Speaker, in healthy companies paying dividends.
1:09:59 > 1:10:05In fact, many of our pension schemes rely on the profits that are paid
1:10:05 > 1:10:08from dividends. She talks about dividends as if they are a dirty
1:10:08 > 1:10:10word. Actually, they are something and a healthy business to be
1:10:10 > 1:10:15applauded. Mr Speaker, the house can be reassured that this is just the
1:10:15 > 1:10:23next step in a robust, detailed, for some review of our corporate
1:10:23 > 1:10:27government regime, to make sure that we protect the taxpayer, we protect
1:10:27 > 1:10:32pensioners and we protect the workers in all of those companies
1:10:32 > 1:10:39that do such a good job. Thank you. What is his ambition for when his
1:10:39 > 1:10:45excellent proposals will actually be implemented?As the honourable
1:10:45 > 1:10:48gentleman will know, we have not hang about in relation to
1:10:48 > 1:10:55improvements within the corporate governance structure. We will
1:10:55 > 1:11:01shortly be laying a further CFP, which will enhance even further the
1:11:01 > 1:11:06measures we have brought in. The consultation will take place within
1:11:06 > 1:11:11the normal rules of a consultation and we hope to bring forward the
1:11:11 > 1:11:15proposals as a matter of urgency. Can I thank the Minister for
1:11:15 > 1:11:19advanced sight of his statement. In terms of engagement, will the
1:11:19 > 1:11:23Government consider proposals to force chief executives and company
1:11:23 > 1:11:26directors to engage directly with small-business owners or groups
1:11:26 > 1:11:31affected individuals? In the recent instances of the global
1:11:31 > 1:11:34restructuring group and Royal Bank of Scotland branch closures, there
1:11:34 > 1:11:39has been a refusal on the part of directors to meet those. Affected As
1:11:39 > 1:11:42my honourable friend from Glasgow North pointed out, a lot of the
1:11:42 > 1:11:44problems which this consultation seeks to address could have been
1:11:44 > 1:11:54avoided simply through engagement with those in charge. With costs
1:11:54 > 1:11:59preventing individuals from pursuing legal options after being affected
1:11:59 > 1:12:01by insolvency, will the government back a strategy look of ways of
1:12:01 > 1:12:04ensuring that legal recourse is available to those that will already
1:12:04 > 1:12:11be in financial difficulties as a result of insolvency? In terms of
1:12:11 > 1:12:13contracts and pensions protections, small businesses should not be the
1:12:13 > 1:12:17ones to suffer when a failed large company goes bust, and it should not
1:12:17 > 1:12:22only be high-profile cases where the Government steps in to protect
1:12:22 > 1:12:27pensions. What measures will this strategy take to ensure that small
1:12:27 > 1:12:33and medium-sized enterprises are protected when contract or payments
1:12:33 > 1:12:38are halted due to large companies collapsing, and that any protection
1:12:38 > 1:12:42for creditors is mirrored by protection for workers and pension
1:12:42 > 1:12:46holders? Finally, these proposals are aimed at improving the range of
1:12:46 > 1:12:50options available following a company becoming insolvent. However,
1:12:50 > 1:12:52a proactive approach can help prevent this happening in the first
1:12:52 > 1:12:58place. Would he agree that one way to ensure this would be for
1:12:58 > 1:13:02organisations to take profit warning seriously, and not continue to hand
1:13:02 > 1:13:08out contracts to firms that issue them?I thank the honourable
1:13:08 > 1:13:13gentleman for those detailed and very, very important questions. He
1:13:13 > 1:13:17asks a number of questions, particularly in relation to small
1:13:17 > 1:13:19businesses. As the Small Business Minister, I take those questions
1:13:19 > 1:13:24extremely seriously. What we see is not just large corporate collapses
1:13:24 > 1:13:29that affect small businesses. We saw that in the case of Carillion,
1:13:29 > 1:13:35thousands of small businesses in the supply chain. Actually, the collapse
1:13:35 > 1:13:37of small business affecting other small businesses. I think we will
1:13:37 > 1:13:42all have seen in our own constituencies cases of small
1:13:42 > 1:13:45businesses who lose money because of a Phoenix business, we have seen
1:13:45 > 1:13:49them before, they change their name, they go into liquidation, we see
1:13:49 > 1:13:53them reappearing again, the same people, selling the same products,
1:13:53 > 1:13:56fleecing people, time and time again. The abilities we are giving
1:13:56 > 1:14:05the solvency services, investigating companies that have already been
1:14:05 > 1:14:10dissolved, will go a long way to sending a very, very clear message
1:14:10 > 1:14:14to directors that think they can get away with it in that way and fleece
1:14:14 > 1:14:16small businesses, that the insolvency service will come and get
1:14:16 > 1:14:20them. He talks about pensions. I think it is very, very important
1:14:20 > 1:14:23that directors very clearly understand, through this white paper
1:14:23 > 1:14:28and through this consultation, and through the DWP White Paper, that
1:14:28 > 1:14:32there are consequences if you fleece your pension fund. That those are
1:14:32 > 1:14:36not only finds, those are not only penalties, but you will spend time
1:14:36 > 1:14:40in prison if you have been found to be fleecing your pension fund in a
1:14:40 > 1:14:52way that is unacceptable. Finally, he talks about the need for us to
1:14:52 > 1:14:54ensure ethical business in relation to the way small businesses are
1:14:54 > 1:15:02treated. We saw in the spring statement just last week the
1:15:02 > 1:15:05Chancellor, a clear recognition, clear understanding, that small
1:15:05 > 1:15:07businesses are being fleeced, particularly in relation to late
1:15:07 > 1:15:11payments. The Chancellor said that he would consult on how we could end
1:15:11 > 1:15:18the scourge of late payments. If we could do that, not only would we see
1:15:18 > 1:15:23£14 billion taken from the pockets of big businesses and put into the
1:15:23 > 1:15:26pockets of small business, but we could also see that when
1:15:26 > 1:15:31insolvencies do happen, like Carillion, it is not 128 days of
1:15:31 > 1:15:36payments that are in the bank accounts that go bust, it is only
1:15:36 > 1:15:4430.Can I welcome this announcement? As a former business owner myself, I
1:15:44 > 1:15:50have seen the impact on small businesses and large companies
1:15:50 > 1:15:54become insolvent. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to
1:15:54 > 1:15:59protect small businesses and those in the supply chain?I agree with
1:15:59 > 1:16:04the honourable gentleman. That is why we are specifically consulting
1:16:04 > 1:16:11in this document about what more we can do to protect small businesses.
1:16:11 > 1:16:17We have seen lots these failures were clever directors, with clever
1:16:17 > 1:16:21advisers, clever lawyers, cleverest tax accountants, put in place a
1:16:21 > 1:16:23regime that allows them to walk away scot-free, while hard-working
1:16:23 > 1:16:29businessmen and women in our constituencies pay the price. This
1:16:29 > 1:16:35consultation looks at how we can put an end to that and be on the side of
1:16:35 > 1:16:42the small guy.Will the Minister consider extending the consultation
1:16:42 > 1:16:48to other non-governmental contract, just so it is a new way of doing
1:16:48 > 1:16:54business? Secondly, what will he do to protect apprentices from court in
1:16:54 > 1:17:01that subcontracting chain, losing the apprenticeship with an SME, the
1:17:01 > 1:17:07lifeblood of the economy?Two important questions. As a customer,
1:17:07 > 1:17:13the Government has a role to play. We give billions of pounds of
1:17:13 > 1:17:16contracts, and we have the power in our own hands to ensure that it is
1:17:16 > 1:17:22treated properly. We will be coming forward in the very near future with
1:17:22 > 1:17:25a clearer set of principles and clearer set of tools in which we
1:17:25 > 1:17:31will ensure that the supply chain is treated properly, paid fairly and
1:17:31 > 1:17:37those 30-day terms is what we expect of our suppliers. In relation to
1:17:37 > 1:17:42apprentices, I agree with her that, unfortunately, in the case of
1:17:42 > 1:17:46business collapse, and we accept that businesses will always go bust,
1:17:46 > 1:17:54it is a case of the realities of the way that they work...There were
1:17:54 > 1:18:00enough in the 90s!The way in which the business environment works. The
1:18:00 > 1:18:03employees are at the heart of this consultation and the heart of the
1:18:03 > 1:18:11decisions that we make.Can I congratulate the Minister on the
1:18:11 > 1:18:13statement and also on launching the much-needed consultation. As a
1:18:13 > 1:18:17member of the select committee that is requiring the route inquiring
1:18:17 > 1:18:25into the collapse of -- that is inquiring into the collapse of
1:18:25 > 1:18:30Carillion, the company did not even give the insolvency service the
1:18:30 > 1:18:36names of all of the parts of the group. Should steps be taken to
1:18:36 > 1:18:38improve governance and accountability in groups of
1:18:38 > 1:18:46companies with complex structures.I think the honourable gentleman has
1:18:46 > 1:18:50hit the nail on the head. I commend the work that his select committee
1:18:50 > 1:18:55has been doing in shining a light into the realities of the weight
1:18:55 > 1:19:01Carillion operated. In the very early days of the Carillion
1:19:01 > 1:19:03collapse, when the Government welcome to protect vital services
1:19:03 > 1:19:07that were being delivered and protect the 18,500 people employed
1:19:07 > 1:19:10by them, it became very clear this was a hellishly complicated
1:19:10 > 1:19:18business, with a hellishly overcomplicated structure. It is
1:19:18 > 1:19:26still a difficult job in trying to untangle that web that we saw in the
1:19:26 > 1:19:29Carillion business structure. If it is, so many weeks on, difficult for
1:19:29 > 1:19:34the insolvency agency to untangle this business, how much more
1:19:34 > 1:19:39difficult must it have been to run it? It is very clear that we need
1:19:39 > 1:19:43clear, accountable business structures in our businesses today.
1:19:45 > 1:19:48Can I welcome ace sensible set of proposals, particularly on value
1:19:48 > 1:19:52extraction through complex arrangement. Can I ask the minister
1:19:52 > 1:19:57what he currently can do, and will in future be able to do, in respect
1:19:57 > 1:20:03of companies like Toys "R" Us, where we had a management team led by a
1:20:03 > 1:20:08man called Frank, who, over a long period of time, were able to loot
1:20:08 > 1:20:14the company, loading it up with debt, using complex and tax havens,
1:20:14 > 1:20:19and leaving behind a legacy of 580 million pension funds and 3000
1:20:19 > 1:20:26redundancies. What can he do?I like the Right Honourable Gentleman for
1:20:26 > 1:20:30that. -- I thank. He has vast experience our Secretary of State
1:20:30 > 1:20:33for our department. He is right in identifying the value extraction
1:20:33 > 1:20:41element in this document. As I alluded to earlier, we see that when
1:20:41 > 1:20:45a businesses particularly taken over, the directors of the company
1:20:45 > 1:20:49purchased it often put in place complicated measures in order to
1:20:49 > 1:20:52protect their own back, in order to make sure whatever happens to that
1:20:52 > 1:21:04business, they are not impacted. The powers within this would allow us to
1:21:04 > 1:21:11recoup and recover that amount of money, not just for directors, for
1:21:11 > 1:21:14shareholders, but for contractors and creditors within the supply
1:21:14 > 1:21:22chain. In relation to toys -- Toys "R" Us, he recognises that some
1:21:22 > 1:21:27businesses will always fail. This Government is very clear that this
1:21:27 > 1:21:33set of measures, particularly putting the emphasis on the
1:21:33 > 1:21:37responsibility not just of directors but also our shareholders, and I
1:21:37 > 1:21:40think this is a very important point, that shareholders,
1:21:40 > 1:21:42particularly institutional shareholders, have a voice in the
1:21:55 > 1:22:03Could I ask him to extend this consultation or perhaps a future on
1:22:03 > 1:22:06into the forced liquidations of often small and sometimes slightly
1:22:06 > 1:22:19vulnerable businesses, by
1:22:21 > 1:22:23banks and other creditors, which are totally unnecessary and could be
1:22:23 > 1:22:28resolved by other means and retain jobs as opposed to leaving bust
1:22:28 > 1:22:30businesses which should be thriving. Mr Speaker, we have seen over recent
1:22:30 > 1:22:34weeks the impact the banks can have on small businesses when they act
1:22:34 > 1:22:38inappropriately. I've been meeting with the PPP recently to see how we
1:22:38 > 1:22:50can get more accountability -- the APPG. Eye would be delighted to meet
1:22:50 > 1:22:57with the honourable gentleman to find out what ideas he has.Mr
1:22:57 > 1:23:01Speaker, can I ask for some clarification please. Could you tell
1:23:01 > 1:23:05me if it is usual when an MP from a constituency visits a different
1:23:05 > 1:23:09constituency for them to let that member no because in the last ten
1:23:09 > 1:23:13days two MPs from the benches opposite have visited my
1:23:13 > 1:23:17constituency and I've had no notice. You never know, we might have
1:23:17 > 1:23:25another visit coming up shortly.The short answer to the honourable lady,
1:23:25 > 1:23:29and I thank her for it, is a member visiting another member's
1:23:29 > 1:23:39constituency on public business should notify and it should be done
1:23:39 > 1:23:43in a timely way. It is a matter of Parliamentary courtesy, a
1:23:43 > 1:23:51long-standing convention of the House. It's about -- a regrettable
1:23:51 > 1:23:55situation if honourable members feel the need to raise this on the floor
1:23:55 > 1:24:00of the House. Members should simply show a basic level of courtesy and
1:24:00 > 1:24:03respect for each other in these matters. If there are no further
1:24:03 > 1:24:09points of order we come now to the presentation of Bill Secretary
1:24:09 > 1:24:19Bradley.
1:24:20 > 1:24:31Northern Ireland anticipation and adjustment spill.
1:24:38 > 1:24:46I beg to move leave be given to bring in a bill to bring in fire
1:24:46 > 1:24:52information for occupants of high-rise buildings. Following the
1:24:52 > 1:24:56tragic events at Grenfell Tower there's been a great deal of
1:24:56 > 1:25:00attention focused on the urgent need to improve fire safety including
1:25:00 > 1:25:03materials for construction, the effectiveness of building
1:25:03 > 1:25:07regulations and the need for string close. The safety of residents of
1:25:07 > 1:25:13high-rise buildings is the overriding concern and our efforts
1:25:13 > 1:25:17should be concentrated on ensuring that they are afforded the best
1:25:17 > 1:25:21protection. To this end, the setting up of the independent review of
1:25:21 > 1:25:29building regulations and fire safety was a vitally important step and we
1:25:29 > 1:25:32look forward to seeing her report and recommendations which are
1:25:32 > 1:25:38believe expected in the spring. In the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower
1:25:38 > 1:25:43fire, like many other members of Parliament, I made inquiries about
1:25:43 > 1:25:51the high-rise residential buildings in my own constituency, their
1:25:51 > 1:25:55physical safety but also the extent to which residents knew what to do
1:25:55 > 1:26:01in the event of a fire. I would like to put on record my gratitude to
1:26:01 > 1:26:04Hampshire Fire and rescue and the excellent work they did to carry out
1:26:04 > 1:26:11inspections of high-rise buildings and also making home safety visits,
1:26:11 > 1:26:21and importantly responding to fantastic way to residents'
1:26:21 > 1:26:26concerns. However it became clear to me that one of the issues causing
1:26:26 > 1:26:29concern was the lack of transparency about who was responsible for fire
1:26:29 > 1:26:35safety in their building. And the lack of information made available
1:26:35 > 1:26:40to them. This lack of information and transparency was first raised
1:26:40 > 1:26:45with me by a constituent in Basingstoke who was renting a flat
1:26:45 > 1:26:54from a leaseholder in a privately owned high-rise residential block.
1:26:54 > 1:26:58He was seeking to satisfy himself about the safety of the building in
1:26:58 > 1:27:01which he lived but he found it incredibly difficult to access this
1:27:01 > 1:27:05sort of information. In the first place it was unclear who was
1:27:05 > 1:27:09responsible for fire safety, and the managing agent would not tell him
1:27:09 > 1:27:16who even owned the freehold of the building. It transpired the managing
1:27:16 > 1:27:19agents were the responsible person but refuse to give him access to
1:27:19 > 1:27:24fire risk assessments on the basis they didn't routinely make them
1:27:24 > 1:27:28available to residents. Eventually when I secured a copy of the fire
1:27:28 > 1:27:32risk assessment and sent it to my constituents, he was very concerned
1:27:32 > 1:27:37to find out that a number of fire risks had been raised within the
1:27:37 > 1:27:43report, including serious faults on the vent control panel which the
1:27:43 > 1:27:48report identified as a hazard for escape routes and evacuation. He
1:27:48 > 1:27:53went on to try and find out whether remedial actions had been taken but
1:27:53 > 1:27:56then received conflicting information. One way in which he
1:27:56 > 1:28:01could have raised these issues would be if the managing agent for the
1:28:01 > 1:28:05building, the responsible person, were to hold a residents meeting to
1:28:05 > 1:28:09enable occupants to receive information and to scrutinise what
1:28:09 > 1:28:13action had been taken. However the managing agents didn't feel it
1:28:13 > 1:28:23necessary to hold such a meeting and instead issued correspondence which
1:28:23 > 1:28:26in practice was with the leaseholder of the individual flat and not the
1:28:26 > 1:28:30actual occupants. When I worked with my local authority, I found out...
1:28:30 > 1:28:34Try to find out how other high-rise buildings were managed in my
1:28:34 > 1:28:38constituency with regards to fire safety. The borough council are very
1:28:38 > 1:28:42supportive of the proposition that the responsible person should hold
1:28:42 > 1:28:46an annual meeting to clarify fire safety strategy for the building and
1:28:46 > 1:28:49to allow an opportunity for residents to raise any queries they
1:28:49 > 1:28:58might have. It was clear the practice in my constituency varies
1:28:58 > 1:29:04greatly. On managing agents said they hold annual meetings with
1:29:04 > 1:29:08residents on an annual basis and the fire safety arrangements issue was
1:29:08 > 1:29:12on the agenda, and in fact a meeting had been held just prior to the
1:29:12 > 1:29:21Grenfell Tower fire. Other organisations, including for the
1:29:21 > 1:29:23building where my constituent lives, didn't see the need for such a
1:29:23 > 1:29:28meeting so the main purpose of this bill is to require the responsible
1:29:28 > 1:29:34person for all high-rise residential buildings to hold an annual meeting
1:29:34 > 1:29:38for all residents to inform them of the fire risk assessment and to
1:29:38 > 1:29:42address all the fire safety issues that might have been raised.
1:29:42 > 1:29:46Currently the responsible person for any high-rise building is required
1:29:46 > 1:29:50to have fire risk assessments of the building carried out regularly.
1:29:50 > 1:29:55These will identify any fire risks in the building and require remedial
1:29:55 > 1:30:00works to be carried out. However, there is no requirement currently
1:30:00 > 1:30:03for these assessments to be shared with residents, no transparency
1:30:03 > 1:30:07which might help improve the safety of people living in high-rise
1:30:07 > 1:30:14accommodation. From the experience in my constituency, there is some
1:30:14 > 1:30:17good practice but that is not necessarily widespread. I believe
1:30:17 > 1:30:21residents have a right to know where the fire risks have been identified
1:30:21 > 1:30:27in their building and to be allowed to come to their own conclusions of
1:30:27 > 1:30:33the level of risk they are willing to accept. An annual meeting should
1:30:33 > 1:30:37be held to go through the fire risk assessment and to review and report
1:30:37 > 1:30:42on the measures being taken to address any risks identified. In
1:30:42 > 1:30:45this way, progress on rectifying problems will be transparent to
1:30:45 > 1:30:50residents. An annual residents meeting would also be a useful form
1:30:50 > 1:30:57of communication about fire safety with residents who may not be the
1:30:57 > 1:31:02leaseholders of those flats. When the interim report was published in
1:31:02 > 1:31:10December last year, it recognised the need to reassure residents an
1:31:10 > 1:31:15effective system was in place to maintain safety and the buildings
1:31:15 > 1:31:19which were their homes. This bill will ensure the responsible person
1:31:19 > 1:31:22holds an annual meeting for residents to share with them the
1:31:22 > 1:31:26fire risk assessment and make sure residents are aware of how fire
1:31:26 > 1:31:30safety is being managed in their own home. This should be in line with
1:31:30 > 1:31:34the direction of travel of the independent review but goes a step
1:31:34 > 1:31:39further. It provides residents with more information and a greater
1:31:39 > 1:31:43degree of transparency than has been the case to date. Everyone who lives
1:31:43 > 1:31:47in a high-rise building has the right to know if there are fire
1:31:47 > 1:31:52issues that have been identified, how they have been tackled and most
1:31:52 > 1:31:56importantly what they should do in the event of a fire. At the moment
1:31:56 > 1:32:04there is no transparency, Apache practice, residents deserve better
1:32:04 > 1:32:12and I recommend the proposed bill to the House.The question is that the
1:32:12 > 1:32:15right honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many of
1:32:15 > 1:32:25that opinion say I... On the contrary know. The ayes have it. Who
1:32:25 > 1:32:31will prepare and bring in the bill? Mr Iain Duncan Smith, Stephen
1:32:31 > 1:32:35Hammond, Theresa Villiers, Sarah Champion, Harriet Harman, David
1:32:35 > 1:32:40Lammy, just Phillips, Lucy Powell and myself, Madam Deputy Speaker.
1:32:40 > 1:32:51Mrs Maria Miller.
1:33:09 > 1:33:19Fire safety information Bill.Second reading what day?26th of October.
1:33:19 > 1:33:2626th of October. We now come to the Northern Ireland budget anticipation
1:33:26 > 1:33:34and adjustments bill. Business of the House motion. Minister to move?
1:33:34 > 1:33:41The question is the Northern Ireland budget anticipation and adjustments
1:33:41 > 1:33:54bill motion as on the order paper. As many of that opinion, say aye. On
1:33:54 > 1:34:04the contrary no. The ayes have it. The clerk will now proceed to read
1:34:04 > 1:34:08the orders of the day.Northern Ireland budget anticipation and
1:34:08 > 1:34:23adjustments bill, second reading. Somebody say now.Now!Secretary of
1:34:23 > 1:34:26State Mrs Karen Bradley.As I set out to the House in my statement
1:34:26 > 1:34:29last week, in order for the UK Government to uphold its commitments
1:34:29 > 1:34:33in the interest of all parts of the community in Northern Ireland, there
1:34:33 > 1:34:37are series of steps required to safeguard public services and
1:34:37 > 1:34:41finances. The bill before the House today represents the first of those
1:34:41 > 1:34:48steps with the legislation scheduled to followed tomorrow. I take these
1:34:48 > 1:34:51measures with the greatest of reluctance, I have deferred action
1:34:51 > 1:34:56until it was clear it would not be possible for a restored executive to
1:34:56 > 1:34:58take this legislation forward but as we approach the end of the financial
1:34:58 > 1:35:03year it is important we proceed now to give certainty that the Northern
1:35:03 > 1:35:06Ireland civil service look to continue to protect and preserve
1:35:06 > 1:35:11public services. Last year the UK Government had to step in and asked
1:35:11 > 1:35:15parliament to legislate for 2017/18 budget for Northern Ireland. Again,
1:35:15 > 1:35:23not a step we wanted to take but it gave the Northern Ireland this --
1:35:23 > 1:35:30Northern Ireland civil service the ability to perform what they needed
1:35:30 > 1:35:35to do. No direction were set out for how spending decisions should be
1:35:35 > 1:35:38made, instead they set out in more
1:35:38 > 1:35:40departmental spending allocations within which permanent secretaries
1:35:40 > 1:35:45could deliver on their respective responsibilities. That act was bat
1:35:45 > 1:35:48in November, since then the Northern Ireland civil service have continued
1:35:48 > 1:35:51assessing where pressure is like across the system and reallocated
1:35:51 > 1:35:56resources as required. In addition the UK Government is committed in
1:35:56 > 1:36:02November to providing £50 million of support arising from the agreement
1:36:02 > 1:36:11to address pressures. Of that, we agreed £20 million would be made
1:36:11 > 1:36:13available in 2017/18 with the remainder to form part of the
1:36:13 > 1:36:18resource totals available in 20 18th/ 19th and that additional
1:36:18 > 1:36:22funding was confirmed in the supply and appropriation anticipation and
1:36:22 > 1:36:30adjustments act which received Royal assent last week. Those changes must
1:36:30 > 1:36:34now be reflected in the legal spending authority provided to the
1:36:34 > 1:36:39Northern Ireland Administration and that is what this bill does. In
1:36:39 > 1:36:44addition, the Bill provides for a vote on account of the early months
1:36:44 > 1:36:47of next year to give legal authority for managing day-to-day spending in
1:36:47 > 1:36:52the run-up to that Estimates process. Honourable and right
1:36:52 > 1:36:56honourable members may recall there was no such action this year with no
1:36:56 > 1:37:00budget legislation for Northern Ireland before November. This meant
1:37:00 > 1:37:03the Northern Ireland civil service had to rely on section 59 of the
1:37:03 > 1:37:12Northern Ireland act to issue cash and resources. These are emergency
1:37:12 > 1:37:16powers intended to be used only in the absence of more orthodox legal
1:37:16 > 1:37:20authority. As we take forward legislation to formalise the budget
1:37:20 > 1:37:23for last year, I don't consider it would be appropriate if we didn't
1:37:23 > 1:37:29provide the usual vote on account facility. A facility provided to UK
1:37:29 > 1:37:31Government departments through our own spring supplementary Estimates
1:37:31 > 1:37:35process.
1:37:35 > 1:37:39To be very clear, this is not a budget for the overhead. The bill
1:37:39 > 1:37:46does not seek to set out in the legislation the guidelines I sat in
1:37:46 > 1:37:50March. They will be taken forward in a budget bill in the summer, as is
1:37:50 > 1:37:53the case for the United Kingdom finances as a whole. Of course, I
1:37:53 > 1:37:57have this budget bill will be brought forward by an executive but
1:37:57 > 1:38:01we must be prepared for the potential it would be game foot to
1:38:01 > 1:38:07this Parliament to gain budget certainty. Nor does it seek to vote
1:38:07 > 1:38:10any new money is the Northern Ireland. The total to which it is
1:38:10 > 1:38:15related at either locally raised or have been subject to previous vote
1:38:15 > 1:38:20in parliament, most recently in the supply and appropriation adjustments
1:38:20 > 1:38:25bill. Instead, the bill looks back to confirm spending totals for
1:38:25 > 1:38:282017-18 to ensure Northern Ireland civil service has a secure legal
1:38:28 > 1:38:33basis for its spending in the past year. As such, it formally allocates
1:38:33 > 1:38:38the £20 million of confidence and supply funding already committed for
1:38:38 > 1:38:432017-18. It is not concerned with any of the £410 million set out in
1:38:43 > 1:38:47my budget statement last week which will be a matter for the UK
1:38:47 > 1:38:50estimates in the summer and foreign Northern Ireland budget bill
1:38:50 > 1:38:54thereafter. Taken as a whole, it represents the minimum necessary
1:38:54 > 1:38:57intervention to secure public finances at this juncture.
1:38:57 > 1:39:00I will turn very briefly to the content of the bill, as it will
1:39:00 > 1:39:06largely rehearse the discussions my predecessor, who I know will be with
1:39:06 > 1:39:09us when he has finished a piece of secondary legislation he is involved
1:39:09 > 1:39:15in upstairs. He is here, still here, good. Bringing forward the Northern
1:39:15 > 1:39:19Ireland budget before this house. I'm delighted to see he is here and
1:39:19 > 1:39:22know he will contribute later when he has served on the secondary
1:39:22 > 1:39:26legislation observes. In short, it authorises Northern
1:39:26 > 1:39:29Ireland departments and other bodies to incur expenditure and use
1:39:29 > 1:39:33resources for the financial year ending on 31st of March, 2018.
1:39:33 > 1:39:39Clause one authorises the money out of the Consolidated fund of Northern
1:39:39 > 1:39:43Ireland. The allocation levels for each Northern Ireland department and
1:39:43 > 1:39:47the other bodies in receipt of these funds are set out in schedule one
1:39:47 > 1:39:50which also states the purpose for which these funds are to be used.
1:39:50 > 1:39:58Clause two authorises the use of resources amounting to £80 million
1:39:58 > 1:40:03by the Northern Ireland departments and other bodies listed in clause
1:40:03 > 1:40:08three, subsection two. Clause three sets revise limits on accruing
1:40:08 > 1:40:11resources including operating a non-operating resources in the
1:40:11 > 1:40:15current financial year. These are all largely as they appeared in the
1:40:15 > 1:40:19Northern Ireland budget 2017 and the revised totals for departments
1:40:19 > 1:40:23appear in schedules one and two the bill." McGrath does not have a
1:40:23 > 1:40:28parallel in that act. It sets out the power for the NIC efforts to
1:40:28 > 1:40:41issue out of the NI Consolidated fund some £7.35
1:40:45 > 1:40:48billion in cash for the forthcoming financial year. This is the voting
1:40:48 > 1:40:50account provision I have audio line. It is linked across six which does
1:40:50 > 1:40:53the same in terms of resources. The value is set as a standard at around
1:40:53 > 1:40:5645% of the sum is available in both regards in the previous financial
1:40:56 > 1:40:59year. Schedules three and four operate on the same basis, with each
1:40:59 > 1:41:01department to allegation set at 45% of the previous year. Clause five
1:41:01 > 1:41:02permit some temporary borrowing powers the cash management purposes.
1:41:02 > 1:41:05As I have already noted, these sums relate to those that have ready been
1:41:05 > 1:41:08voted by Parliament, together with revenue generated locally in
1:41:08 > 1:41:12Northern Ireland. There is no new money contained within this bill.
1:41:12 > 1:41:14There is simply the explicit authority to spend involve the
1:41:14 > 1:41:19monies that have already been allocated. Of course.
1:41:19 > 1:41:23Thank you. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me
1:41:23 > 1:41:27to intervene. She will be well aware under the allocation to the
1:41:27 > 1:41:35executive office, it actually, in detail, expresses actions associated
1:41:35 > 1:41:40with the preparation and implementation of the historical
1:41:40 > 1:41:46institutional abuse inquiry report on findings. What exactly is going
1:41:46 > 1:41:49to be implemented and done? It is long overdue, very long overdue,
1:41:49 > 1:41:55what is going to happen in Northern Ireland as a result of today's bill?
1:41:55 > 1:41:57Madam Deputy Speaker I thank the honourable lady for her
1:41:57 > 1:42:04intervention. We have, the two of us have discussed this at the select
1:42:04 > 1:42:08committee and also in this house. As I have said, what this bill does is
1:42:08 > 1:42:13agrees the money that has already been spent in regard to the heart
1:42:13 > 1:42:18inquiry. That was an inquiry set up by the executive and therefore it is
1:42:18 > 1:42:24quite right that in this bill we agree that that money that has been
1:42:24 > 1:42:29spent has been properly unlawfully spent. In terms of the treatment of
1:42:29 > 1:42:32the victims of historical abuse, and she will know, as we all do, we'll
1:42:32 > 1:42:40wish to seek those victims see the justice that they so rightly deserve
1:42:40 > 1:42:44but she will also know that this was an inquiry set up by the executive
1:42:44 > 1:42:48and is therefore quite right that it should be, the recommendations dealt
1:42:48 > 1:42:51with by the executive. It's a great shame we don't have an executive to
1:42:51 > 1:42:55deal with these things. It would be constitutionally inappropriate for
1:42:55 > 1:43:01this house to determine the actions that should be taken in regard to
1:43:01 > 1:43:05those recommendations, because this house did not set up that inquiry,
1:43:05 > 1:43:09it was set up by the executive, and that is the right place for the
1:43:09 > 1:43:12recommendations to be considered and decisions taken about those
1:43:12 > 1:43:15recommendations. But I'm unaware of the point she races and I know we
1:43:15 > 1:43:19will continue to discuss this point. Going back to the bill, it would
1:43:19 > 1:43:23ordinarily have been taken through the assembly and as such at clause
1:43:23 > 1:43:35seven there are a series of adaptations that ensure
1:43:35 > 1:43:38that once approved by both houses of Westminster the bill will be treated
1:43:38 > 1:43:40as though it were an assembly budget at, enabling Northern Ireland public
1:43:40 > 1:43:42finances to continue to function, notwithstanding the absence of an
1:43:42 > 1:43:45executive. Alongside the bill itself I have also laid before the House as
1:43:45 > 1:43:47a command paper a set of supplementary Estimates for the
1:43:47 > 1:43:49departments and bodies covered by the bill. These estimates which have
1:43:49 > 1:43:53been prepared by the Northern Ireland finance set out in greater
1:43:53 > 1:43:58detail. As honourable and right honourable members may note, this is
1:43:58 > 1:44:02a different process to that which we might ordinarily see that estimates
1:44:02 > 1:44:08at Westminster, where the estimates documents precedes the former budget
1:44:08 > 1:44:11document and is proved. This will be the case as the assembly. As was the
1:44:11 > 1:44:14case in November, the bill provides the layering of the command paper
1:44:14 > 1:44:18takes the place of an estimates document laden approved before this
1:44:18 > 1:44:25assembly. Again, to enable public finances to flow smoothly.
1:44:25 > 1:44:30Thank you and I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. Could I
1:44:30 > 1:44:33asked my right honourable friend, assuming an executive was
1:44:33 > 1:44:38reconstituted at some stage during the year, perhaps say in six months'
1:44:38 > 1:44:43time, would members of that executive have any ability to
1:44:43 > 1:44:50fiddle, change, adjust the budget she is proposing or is it set for
1:44:50 > 1:44:55the year? No, my honourable and gallant friend
1:44:55 > 1:44:58is correct. The members of the assembly and members of the
1:44:58 > 1:45:03executive would have the power to change the allocations as set out in
1:45:03 > 1:45:08the budget and to change decisions taken. He will know, as I said in my
1:45:08 > 1:45:14statement last week, that's what I did last week was the bare minimum
1:45:14 > 1:45:22required to allow the NIC S to be able to continue to function and
1:45:22 > 1:45:25deliver public services but there are many political decisions and it
1:45:25 > 1:45:28would not be appropriate to take on this place as we do not have the
1:45:28 > 1:45:31executive power to do so. But the executive would do, and I would
1:45:31 > 1:45:39therefore urge numbers of the assembly to do what they can as the
1:45:39 > 1:45:48comeback to Stormont and to take executive decision-making powers. So
1:45:48 > 1:45:51I hope honourable and right honourable members will agree this
1:45:51 > 1:45:55is very much a technical step we are taking as we approach the end of the
1:45:55 > 1:45:58financial year. It looks backwards rather than forward, though it does
1:45:58 > 1:46:01avoid the use of emergency powers for the forthcoming financial year.
1:46:01 > 1:46:07Of course I will give away.I am very grateful, thank you again. I'm
1:46:07 > 1:46:10extremely grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me to move
1:46:10 > 1:46:13onto different topic, the Independent reporting commission.
1:46:13 > 1:46:21Given the rise in North Down regrettably of loyalist paramilitary
1:46:21 > 1:46:24activity in North Down I'm curious to know of the independent reporting
1:46:24 > 1:46:29commission set up by the previous Secretary of State, to distinguish
1:46:29 > 1:46:32Secretary of State, who I think was present and is not present just at
1:46:32 > 1:46:36the moment in the chamber. What exactly does the independent
1:46:36 > 1:46:41reporting commission do for its money, since paramilitary activity
1:46:41 > 1:46:45seems to be increasing instead of decreasing, which was its remit when
1:46:45 > 1:46:50set up? Madam Deputy Speaker, I have the
1:46:50 > 1:46:54honour of meeting Mitchell trees while I was in the US last week. I
1:46:54 > 1:46:59think there were a number of members opposite who also may have had the
1:46:59 > 1:47:05chance to meet him. I expect the independent reporting Council,
1:47:05 > 1:47:09commission to report shortly with interim findings. I know the members
1:47:09 > 1:47:12will be visiting Northern Ireland shortly and I hope to have a meeting
1:47:12 > 1:47:15at that point but I'm well aware of the point she races Poistogova
1:47:15 > 1:47:23something I discussed with Mr Reece whilst in the United States.
1:47:23 > 1:47:30Can she just clarify for me, funding apparently for implementing the
1:47:30 > 1:47:38recommendations of the Hart Report is on schedule two but also on
1:47:38 > 1:47:40schedule three which conflict slightly with the point made
1:47:40 > 1:47:44earlier. I wonder if she can clarify that, Saint schedule three appears
1:47:44 > 1:47:51to anticipate spend on the Hart inquiry, which we would all welcome
1:47:51 > 1:47:54but the Secretary of State hasn't said so explicitly.
1:47:54 > 1:48:02I thank my honourable friend. As I said it might earlier remarks,
1:48:02 > 1:48:06forward-looking expenditure is merely approving in the way we were
1:48:06 > 1:48:13doing the normal budget process for here in this house. 45% of spending.
1:48:13 > 1:48:15We have done exactly the same allocations as was spent in the
1:48:15 > 1:48:22previous year, to enable the money is to be spent but it is not giving
1:48:22 > 1:48:25decision-making power to say this is how the money should be spent. It is
1:48:25 > 1:48:33merely giving approval that monies can be spent by those departments. I
1:48:33 > 1:48:36appreciate it's not an entirely satisfactory situation but it is
1:48:36 > 1:48:40what is required to be done to enable departments to continue to be
1:48:40 > 1:48:44able to function and provide public services and we will in the summer,
1:48:44 > 1:48:47of course, come through with the full budget process, which I hope
1:48:47 > 1:48:51will be done at Stormont by a restored executive but if not it
1:48:51 > 1:48:55will have to be done in this house. I thank the Secretary of State for
1:48:55 > 1:49:01giving way. She will know it is the perpetrator that pays and is
1:49:01 > 1:49:04punished not the taxpayer. Poggi ensure that going forward, if there
1:49:04 > 1:49:08is not an assembly in six months' time that it will be the
1:49:08 > 1:49:14institutions who perpetrated those faults and indeed those horrible
1:49:14 > 1:49:17pernicious attacks on individuals, that they will be the people made to
1:49:17 > 1:49:20pay, not the taxpayer picking up the bill.
1:49:20 > 1:49:23Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the honourable gentleman's comments
1:49:23 > 1:49:28indicate to this house that there is not perhaps universal support for
1:49:28 > 1:49:33every recommendation that has been made in the Hart inquiry and that is
1:49:33 > 1:49:37why it is important we have a restored executive in Stormont back
1:49:37 > 1:49:39and make decisions about those recommendations and enable justice
1:49:39 > 1:49:44to be delivered. If I may, I will conclude my remarks. Of course I
1:49:44 > 1:49:50will. I thank the Secretary of State. She
1:49:50 > 1:49:53confirmed the legal position is for is this bill is concerned and what
1:49:53 > 1:49:58it purports to do and will do if past. Can she confirmed that in
1:49:58 > 1:50:01terms of the written ministerial statement allocating £410 million of
1:50:01 > 1:50:07the money at the start of the financial year, governments and
1:50:07 > 1:50:10northern Ireland can plan on spending that money?
1:50:10 > 1:50:13I thank the right honourable gentleman. He is right. This
1:50:13 > 1:50:18statement sets out the Dippenaar mental allocations, what this bill
1:50:18 > 1:50:22does is give Parliamentary approval. -- departmental allocations. It
1:50:22 > 1:50:25gives approval to start spending money. It is what is required for
1:50:25 > 1:50:30that at the start of the financial year but not setting the final
1:50:30 > 1:50:32allocations, it is merely giving approval that departments can start
1:50:32 > 1:50:38to spend. We are saying this money can now be spent to public services
1:50:38 > 1:50:44can be delivered. His absolute right, the £410 million delivered
1:50:44 > 1:50:48from the confidence and supply agreement for 2019-20 years in the
1:50:48 > 1:50:51allocations as set out in the ministerial statement on the
1:50:51 > 1:50:53departments can work on the basis that they can start to spend that
1:50:53 > 1:50:58money. The point again comes, this bill
1:50:58 > 1:51:02supplied it provides a secure footing for the Northern Ireland
1:51:02 > 1:51:05civil service. It is on that platform might budget of six to
1:51:05 > 1:51:09build. That will need to be the subject of formal legislation in the
1:51:09 > 1:51:13summer, as a further Northern Ireland budget bill. That is one I
1:51:13 > 1:51:17sincerely hope, as I have or dissent, will be taken forward by
1:51:17 > 1:51:20restored executive, but if required, that is something we as the UK
1:51:20 > 1:51:23Government would be prepared to progress, as we uphold our
1:51:23 > 1:51:26responsibilities to the people of Northern Ireland.
1:51:26 > 1:51:30In the meantime, it is those allocations, if I may finish my
1:51:30 > 1:51:38sentence, which that the NICS to prepare and plan for the year ahead.
1:51:38 > 1:51:42Which she agree with me we all want to see the executive being restored
1:51:42 > 1:51:46but in the absence of that in the medium-term, which agreed the way we
1:51:46 > 1:51:52bring for this process, it is not satisfactory, is at least progress
1:51:52 > 1:51:56but we need to see further progress as to how that money is spent on the
1:51:56 > 1:52:02ground? For much-needed services? I thank the honourable gentleman for
1:52:02 > 1:52:05his contribution. I agree with him, we all want to see devolution
1:52:05 > 1:52:11restored. As I have said, I do this reluctantly, but I am doing what is
1:52:11 > 1:52:16required to enable public spending to continue and public services to
1:52:16 > 1:52:22be delivered. I pay tribute to the civil servants and other public
1:52:22 > 1:52:26servants who have worked tirelessly for the last 14 months doing that,
1:52:26 > 1:52:28exactly that work and I want to make sure they can continue to do
1:52:35 > 1:52:39It is probably mean being thick but I wonder if you can explain the
1:52:39 > 1:52:44difference between scheduled three and schedule four, resource is
1:52:44 > 1:52:49authorised and resources granted for the year ending 31st of March 2000
1:52:49 > 1:52:5219. Many figures look the same but clearly there's a difference in the
1:52:52 > 1:52:57form of words used and I would be grateful for clarification on that
1:52:57 > 1:53:03point.I suspect this is a deeply technical point, it would be helpful
1:53:03 > 1:53:06if I wrote to the honourable gentleman and set out exactly what
1:53:06 > 1:53:11the difference was but I want to assure him we are proving that
1:53:11 > 1:53:15spending can start but not approving final numbers nor how that spending
1:53:15 > 1:53:21happens as part of this process for 2018/ 19. We are proving today the
1:53:21 > 1:53:26monies that have already been spent and making sure they are on a proper
1:53:26 > 1:53:32statutory footing so the finances of Northern Ireland and the NICS can be
1:53:32 > 1:53:37dealt with properly. As I conclude, I will set out once again a point
1:53:37 > 1:53:41I've made several times before. The UK Government is steadfastly
1:53:41 > 1:53:44committed to the Belfast agreement and completely committed to working
1:53:44 > 1:53:49to remove the barriers for devolution and that's because
1:53:49 > 1:53:56Northern Ireland need strong local leadership. But in its absence, this
1:53:56 > 1:54:00bill is a reminder of the UK Government will always uphold its
1:54:00 > 1:54:03responsibilities for political stability and good governance and I
1:54:03 > 1:54:08commend it to the House.The question is the Bill be now read a
1:54:08 > 1:54:20second time. Owen Smith.Madam Deputy Speaker, Mrs a technical step
1:54:20 > 1:54:23today and for instant clarity we will be supporting these technical
1:54:23 > 1:54:27measures and supporting the provisions in the Bill. I wanted to
1:54:27 > 1:54:32begin today by remembering on behalf of all of us in the House Jonathan
1:54:32 > 1:54:38ball and Tim Parry who lost their lives in the IRA atrocity at
1:54:38 > 1:54:45Warrington this 25 years ago today and I know there's been a
1:54:45 > 1:54:49commemoration today where they have been honoured along with the other
1:54:49 > 1:54:54people injured on Monday. I wanted to do that to mark their tragic
1:54:54 > 1:54:59deaths and remind us of the terrible cost of the troubles, and the
1:54:59 > 1:55:05reminder to complete the journey to reconciliation between communities
1:55:05 > 1:55:09and to get to political stability in Northern Ireland because it is
1:55:09 > 1:55:14something we should be reminded of today.Can I thank the honourable
1:55:14 > 1:55:20gentleman, and I want to put on the record my condolences and thoughts
1:55:20 > 1:55:27to his... He's absolutely right, to reflect... That today marks the 25th
1:55:27 > 1:55:30anniversary of a shocking event none of us who lived through that time
1:55:30 > 1:55:38will forget and it's a stark reminder of how far we have come.Of
1:55:38 > 1:55:45course, I welcome those words. The bill we have before us today in
1:55:45 > 1:55:50itself reflects the instability we have presently in Northern Ireland,
1:55:50 > 1:55:54the fact that reconciliation is required. We should remind ourselves
1:55:54 > 1:55:58too it is the seventh year out of the 18 years of the Assembly when
1:55:58 > 1:56:03it's been in suspension in some form or another, a measure of some of the
1:56:03 > 1:56:11problems we face that we still in suspension is -- now after 14
1:56:11 > 1:56:18months. The commemorations remind us too of the desperate need we still
1:56:18 > 1:56:23have for true reconciliation between communities because although the
1:56:23 > 1:56:27piece is robust, we all feel that, the reconciliation I think it's all
1:56:27 > 1:56:35too fragile. Not withstanding the fact it is a technical budget, a
1:56:35 > 1:56:40technical set of measures today, not formally a budget. I think there are
1:56:40 > 1:56:44lots of questions about it and I hope to pose some of them about the
1:56:44 > 1:56:49form of the Bill, what is in it, and what isn't in it and what should be
1:56:49 > 1:56:54in it, reflecting some of the comments already made by honourable
1:56:54 > 1:56:57and right honourable members of the House. The first is about the form
1:56:57 > 1:57:00of the Bill because the Secretary of State said they have done something
1:57:00 > 1:57:07different this year, not on what their predecessors did, and moved to
1:57:07 > 1:57:14what is in effect a version of the budget and the Estimates process we
1:57:14 > 1:57:21have for the rest of the UK at traditional points in the year. I
1:57:21 > 1:57:24think that begs a question the Secretary of State has partially
1:57:24 > 1:57:29explained as to why she's done much because it's an emergency measure,
1:57:29 > 1:57:32but I didn't completely understand why we have gone down that route and
1:57:32 > 1:57:38I think it begs a question about whether this is a further staging
1:57:38 > 1:57:43post on that famous glide path to direct rule. And if it is that that
1:57:43 > 1:57:47is in mind of the Government when they went down this route, I would
1:57:47 > 1:57:51urge them to think harder about how they redouble their efforts to get
1:57:51 > 1:57:55things back up and running. If it isn't straightforwardly a budget
1:57:55 > 1:58:02that we are dealing with today, and if it's only allocating 45% of the
1:58:02 > 1:58:06spending for 2018/ 19th as I understand it, I think the Secretary
1:58:06 > 1:58:09of State said we would have to have another budget bill before the
1:58:09 > 1:58:14summer which equally I think makes the point it's a pretty poor
1:58:14 > 1:58:19substitute for the sort of scrutiny and intelligence and direction we
1:58:19 > 1:58:24would have, had we got the Stormont executive and Assembly setting and
1:58:24 > 1:58:29scrutinising a budget. I think some of the confusion we have perhaps
1:58:29 > 1:58:34heard today about the difference between locations and appropriations
1:58:34 > 1:58:40and the schedule three and four and whether we are allowing for spending
1:58:40 > 1:58:47on the HIA for example is effectively because we have a
1:58:47 > 1:58:51cut-and-paste piece of legislation here. It is the same schedule with
1:58:51 > 1:58:56the same description of objectives and tasks facing the individual
1:58:56 > 1:59:00departments in Northern Ireland as we had in the Northern Ireland
1:59:00 > 1:59:12budget 2017.Those listed in that document... She will not the
1:59:12 > 1:59:18significant change year on year because that is the scope of those
1:59:18 > 1:59:22particular departments where they can spend, that doesn't change in
1:59:22 > 1:59:25this document.She is exactly right, that's the point I was coming onto,
1:59:25 > 1:59:30and the point I was going to make is what a poor substitute that is for
1:59:30 > 1:59:33proper budget process because we don't have any real insight into how
1:59:33 > 1:59:38the money is to be spent or where the priorities lie beyond those
1:59:38 > 1:59:45broad headings. I think we have had some confusion around HIA funding
1:59:45 > 1:59:49today because I think it's clear there is an implication of 45% of
1:59:49 > 2:00:04the money available to address the HIA... And I will come onto the HIA
2:00:04 > 2:00:07more later on. But it's a poor substitute and I think with nothing
2:00:07 > 2:00:11should have a better degree of scrutiny on transparency and
2:00:11 > 2:00:14accountability and we can only have that because this place can not
2:00:14 > 2:00:19properly form a substitute. Want if we get the executive back up and
2:00:19 > 2:00:27running. I would also like to say that all of this places Northern
2:00:27 > 2:00:32Ireland's civil servants in a very invidious position because they are
2:00:32 > 2:00:36taking responsibility for providing services, making now increasingly
2:00:36 > 2:00:44autonomous decisions about services, without really having a political
2:00:44 > 2:00:48master to serve or anything to watch their back if there is a crisis in
2:00:48 > 2:00:51the services they are providing and that's not a situation we would wish
2:00:51 > 2:00:58to place them in and not one that can continue indefinitely so I know
2:00:58 > 2:01:02the Secretary of State is mindful of that and that is one thing that will
2:01:02 > 2:01:05spur on the department to redouble their efforts, and indeed spur on
2:01:05 > 2:01:15the parties. The civil servants will be left carrying the can unless we
2:01:15 > 2:01:19are able to get an executive back up and running. There are three areas
2:01:19 > 2:01:23of expenditure not included in the budget today or only refer to
2:01:23 > 2:01:27obliquely in the case of the HIA that I think could be included in
2:01:27 > 2:01:32the budget and could have been dealt with more fully today, and in the
2:01:32 > 2:01:36coming months. The first is the historical institutional abuse
2:01:36 > 2:01:41inquiry conducted by Sir Anthony Harton which right honourable
2:01:41 > 2:01:44members have referred to already today and it of course made this
2:01:44 > 2:01:48recommendation before the executive collapsed. It recommended the
2:01:48 > 2:01:54hundreds of men and women who survived historical abuse in the 20
2:01:54 > 2:01:57institutions in Northern Ireland should be commemorated and also
2:01:57 > 2:02:05crucially compensated for the abuse they experienced.Would the member
2:02:05 > 2:02:15agree that his taxpaying constituents in Pontypridd and mine
2:02:15 > 2:02:19in Northampton should actually pay the compensation or does he believe
2:02:19 > 2:02:23the institutions who carried out the abuse should be made to pay the
2:02:23 > 2:02:28compensation, given the vast amounts of money some of those institutions
2:02:28 > 2:02:32actually possess?It will be for the Government and hopefully the
2:02:32 > 2:02:36executive to make a determination but my view is it will be both that
2:02:36 > 2:02:41will have to bear some cost, some of the institutions that were involved,
2:02:41 > 2:02:47as happened in the Irish Republic, will have to bear some of the cost.
2:02:47 > 2:02:50Where we have state run institutions, that will be a cost
2:02:50 > 2:02:54borne by the taxpayers but I think the reality is that what we have all
2:02:54 > 2:02:58got to recognise, and I know the honourable gentleman does, is the
2:02:58 > 2:03:03abuse suffered by those individuals was heinous and there must be way
2:03:03 > 2:03:08found for them to be properly compensated. The fact we have this
2:03:08 > 2:03:11impasse in Northern Ireland, it can get in the way of that and we need
2:03:11 > 2:03:15to move forward which is why have a particular question for the
2:03:15 > 2:03:18Secretary of State because my impression on hearing the evidence
2:03:18 > 2:03:27given David Stirling, the head of the Northern Ireland civil service,
2:03:27 > 2:03:30giving evidence of the Northern Ireland affairs select committee
2:03:30 > 2:03:35just a month or so ago was that he was preparing, is preparing
2:03:35 > 2:03:40legislation in respect of the HIA and he said explicitly that if there
2:03:40 > 2:03:44is no executive in place by the summer, was the implication is that
2:03:44 > 2:03:48is when the legislation will be ready, then he will be asking the
2:03:48 > 2:03:52Secretary of State to bring forward legislation in this place, in
2:03:52 > 2:03:56Westminster, in order to give effect to the recommendations of the hard
2:03:56 > 2:04:05inquiry. I thought there was a gap left there, and I want to be sure
2:04:05 > 2:04:09she will bring forward list nation notwithstanding the fact we would
2:04:09 > 2:04:17like Stormont to do so.To be clear, I heard the evidence given by David
2:04:17 > 2:04:23Stirling as well and I have spoken to him about this matter. But
2:04:23 > 2:04:28constitutionally this was an inquiry set up by the executive, it reported
2:04:28 > 2:04:31to the executive, unfortunately the executive was unable to take
2:04:31 > 2:04:34decisions before it collapsed on the recommendations and he will
2:04:34 > 2:04:38understand I know, because of his closeness to this issue throughout
2:04:38 > 2:04:44his long political career, that the constitutional implications of the
2:04:44 > 2:04:48Westminster Parliament or government taking a decision about something
2:04:48 > 2:04:53set up by a devolved institution are not ones to be taken lightly but of
2:04:53 > 2:04:57course if David Stirling should write to me making specific requests
2:04:57 > 2:05:04I would consider them at that point. I am grateful for the Secretary of
2:05:04 > 2:05:08State for the clarification but effectively she double down on what
2:05:08 > 2:05:11she said earlier and my response is to say I don't think that's good
2:05:11 > 2:05:15enough. I believe this is an issue where those people have waited long
2:05:15 > 2:05:20enough. I think the report was before the Assembly claps, I think
2:05:20 > 2:05:24there is widespread political support across the piece that there
2:05:24 > 2:05:31should be compensation paid and I hope therefore, notwithstanding the
2:05:31 > 2:05:34complications and in some sense you would be rescinding measure of
2:05:34 > 2:05:38devolution, we would find it in this place to legislate and provide the
2:05:38 > 2:05:43resources. That's the view of this side of the House and I'm sure the
2:05:43 > 2:05:52Secretary of State will reflect on that.The report from Judge Hart who
2:05:52 > 2:05:55headed that inquiry came a short time after the collapse, and it was
2:05:55 > 2:05:59a point raised to Sinn Fein in terms of the timing of the collapse
2:05:59 > 2:06:02because we established that with Sinn Fein, they knew the report was
2:06:02 > 2:06:08coming and we wanted to hold on in order to make decisions.The
2:06:08 > 2:06:15honourable lady is right, it was a matter of days after the executive
2:06:15 > 2:06:18collapse but it doesn't change my point, that there is widespread
2:06:18 > 2:06:22political support for action on this. David Stirling clearly thinks
2:06:22 > 2:06:26it would be acceptable to legislate in this place and I put on the
2:06:26 > 2:06:29record that on this side of the House we think it would be
2:06:29 > 2:06:32acceptable to legislate in this place and we think the Secretary of
2:06:32 > 2:06:38State should do so. The second area of omission I wish to bring to the
2:06:38 > 2:06:42House's attention is the legacy of the troubles and again I know this
2:06:42 > 2:06:49is something the Secretary of State is reflecting on, we know it was
2:06:49 > 2:06:52part of discussion between the parties in the recent talks that
2:06:52 > 2:06:54have stalled unfortunately, but in the light of the failure of the
2:06:54 > 2:06:57talks I wonder of the Secretary of State could say more about whether
2:06:57 > 2:07:01and how she might bring forward resources and legislation to take
2:07:01 > 2:07:05forward the issue of dealing with the legacy of the past. If she wants
2:07:05 > 2:07:13to entertain -- intervene that would be great.I think it is worth
2:07:13 > 2:07:17confirming what I have said previously about this and no doubt
2:07:17 > 2:07:21we will talk about it again tomorrow during Oral Questions, but I have
2:07:21 > 2:07:26been clear the UK Government is committed to setting up the
2:07:26 > 2:07:30institutions that were agreed in the Stormont house talks process. We
2:07:30 > 2:07:34will consult on how to set those institutions up shortly but we
2:07:34 > 2:07:38remain committed to doing that.
2:07:38 > 2:07:42I'm grateful for that confirmation. I'm sure people in Northern Ireland
2:07:42 > 2:07:46will find it reassuring. I would ask you to consider the plea that the
2:07:46 > 2:07:50Lord Chief Justice made in respect of a separate set of resources to
2:07:50 > 2:07:54allow the few remaining legacy inquests to be taken in a timely
2:07:54 > 2:07:58fashion, because some of the people affected of course are ill, some
2:07:58 > 2:08:03have died already and every passing month, frankly, injustice hanging in
2:08:03 > 2:08:09the air. We could be dealing with that to in this place.
2:08:09 > 2:08:13Third, the bill could and in our view should have included financial
2:08:13 > 2:08:17provision to provide for a pension for the seriously injured victims
2:08:17 > 2:08:24and survivors of the troubles. There were of course around 500 or
2:08:24 > 2:08:27still presently 500 seriously injured physically injured
2:08:27 > 2:08:31survivors, many of whom live in is significant financial hardship
2:08:31 > 2:08:35because of their injuries and loss of earnings in their lives as a
2:08:35 > 2:08:38result of the legacy of the Troubles. Some believe we can
2:08:38 > 2:08:44provide a pension for all of those 500 as among them there are some who
2:08:44 > 2:08:49were injured by their own hand. I believe we think there are six
2:08:49 > 2:08:53loyalists and four Republicans injured by their own actions in the
2:08:53 > 2:08:56Troubles and I acknowledge those concerns on the difficulty it poses
2:08:56 > 2:09:02and I acknowledge honourable members have considerable issues about what
2:09:02 > 2:09:09that would mean for the treatment of victims and how we move forward in
2:09:09 > 2:09:14respect of victims legislation. I will give way.I thank the
2:09:14 > 2:09:19honourable gentleman for allowing me to intervene. I'm thinking also of
2:09:19 > 2:09:24soldiers that many people have actually had compensation and indeed
2:09:24 > 2:09:28pensions. Is the honourable gentleman thinking of them included
2:09:28 > 2:09:36in this 500, or are they separate? The 500 relate to civilian victims,
2:09:36 > 2:09:40but there are, of course, as you say separate provisions in respect of
2:09:40 > 2:09:44injured soldiers. I think the reality is many of the 500 have, of
2:09:44 > 2:09:48course, received some form of financial compensation but for many
2:09:48 > 2:09:54of them that is money that has long since run out and the loss of
2:09:54 > 2:09:58earnings over a protracted period has left significant hardship as the
2:09:58 > 2:10:01daily reality for many men and women in Northern Ireland. I believe this
2:10:01 > 2:10:07is another area where we cannot allow the perfect to be the enemy of
2:10:07 > 2:10:10the good, and notwithstanding the difficulties, I think the Secretary
2:10:10 > 2:10:13of State in particular right now should be thinking about how we
2:10:13 > 2:10:19provide for those people. I wonder if he is equally concerned
2:10:19 > 2:10:22about the military covenant and the full implementation of that in
2:10:22 > 2:10:25Northern Ireland and will he pushed the Secretary of State to make sure
2:10:25 > 2:10:28that occurs also? Of course, that is another very
2:10:28 > 2:10:32important issue. I don't think it's necessarily related to the substance
2:10:32 > 2:10:36of this bill, which is largely about financial measures but I'm sure the
2:10:36 > 2:10:39Secretary of State will have heard it and I will also be continuing to
2:10:39 > 2:10:45talk about the military cabinet and its importance to all of those in
2:10:45 > 2:10:50Northern Ireland. On pensions, however, the Secretary of State
2:10:50 > 2:10:54should know some of the victims, in particular those represented by the
2:10:54 > 2:10:58Wave group will be here to listen to our proceedings,. I would urge her
2:10:58 > 2:11:01to show leadership on this issue and to find the resources to provide
2:11:01 > 2:11:06them with the amount of money they need, because it will be a tiny
2:11:06 > 2:11:12amount of money in the scheme of things but for individuals it will
2:11:12 > 2:11:18be a life-saver. I will. I thank the Secretary of State for
2:11:18 > 2:11:23giving way. He will of course no it isn't just a question of financial
2:11:23 > 2:11:27provision, but we will require legislation. This party is prepared
2:11:27 > 2:11:32to put forward a private members Bill, to propose such a pension for
2:11:32 > 2:11:35seriously injured victims and survivors in Northern Ireland will
2:11:35 > 2:11:43his party that bill? Well, I think it would depend, map
2:11:43 > 2:11:48Madam Deputy Speaker on the nature of that bill, and on how all members
2:11:48 > 2:11:54are treated. I said earlier on about the concerns people have on the
2:11:54 > 2:11:57definition of victim and some individuals who might benefit from
2:11:57 > 2:12:01such a pension. My view is clear, I don't think we can allow the perfect
2:12:01 > 2:12:06to be the enemy of the good. I think even if it means some people who
2:12:06 > 2:12:09were injured by their own hand... Were eventually in receipt of a
2:12:09 > 2:12:13state pension, then I think that would be a price worth paying in
2:12:13 > 2:12:16order to provide the necessary resources for the vast majority of
2:12:16 > 2:12:20innocent Finally Madam Deputy Speaker... I
2:12:20 > 2:12:25will.-- majority of innocent victims. The select committee did
2:12:25 > 2:12:30meet with Wave and look at their proposals. As he looked at the issue
2:12:30 > 2:12:36of how he can design a pension that suffered mental health problems as a
2:12:36 > 2:12:40result of the Troubles, because I suspect it may include more people
2:12:40 > 2:12:44than the 500 formally impound the year he quotes but I don't see how
2:12:44 > 2:12:48you could have a scheme that helpless people as well.The
2:12:48 > 2:12:51honourable gentleman I know from his time in the select committee is very
2:12:51 > 2:12:54familiar with this issue. He's absolutely right, the numbers I
2:12:54 > 2:13:00referred to are the 500 seriously physically injured victims and
2:13:00 > 2:13:06survivors and the 2- £3 million quantum is annual sum associated
2:13:06 > 2:13:10with them receiving some form of a pension. He is right, there is also
2:13:10 > 2:13:14a further significant issue to be considered, those people who have
2:13:14 > 2:13:17been injured permanently and psychologically as a result of the
2:13:17 > 2:13:20Troubles. No, I don't have an absolute idea as to how that would
2:13:20 > 2:13:26be done. I have read the commission's report on how it might
2:13:26 > 2:13:29be achieved and I think that would need to be taken into account, but I
2:13:29 > 2:13:34say again, I think time is passing for all of these victims of the
2:13:34 > 2:13:38Troubles and time is the one thing they cannot afford and therefore I
2:13:38 > 2:13:42would urge all of us in this house to get past these difficulties and
2:13:42 > 2:13:48see a way clear to providing the resources that are needed.
2:13:48 > 2:13:53Thank you for giving way. When we had the debate, the honourable
2:13:53 > 2:13:59gentleman said in his response you would go back to Sinn Fein to see
2:13:59 > 2:14:05how we could move the thing forward. In that period of time has he had
2:14:05 > 2:14:08the opportunity to talk to Sinn Fein to see what their position on the
2:14:08 > 2:14:16Northern Ireland government is?I haven't. Finally, Madam Deputy
2:14:16 > 2:14:19Speaker. Can I say I know the Secretary of State agrees with media
2:14:19 > 2:14:23should be the last year when we are passing a budget in this place
2:14:23 > 2:14:26instead of via Stormont but can I ask her to do a little more to
2:14:26 > 2:14:32outline what she is doing now to ensure that isn't the case. For our
2:14:32 > 2:14:34part, notwithstanding the slightly less than successful intervention by
2:14:34 > 2:14:42the Prime Minister in February we believe the role for the Prime
2:14:42 > 2:14:45Minister to galvanise parties in Northern Ireland, to act as a
2:14:45 > 2:14:48rallying point to try and bring people together, ideally in some
2:14:48 > 2:14:53sort of prime ministerial summit of all of the parties is important.
2:14:53 > 2:14:57These things have worked in the past and we cannot understand why they
2:14:57 > 2:15:03have been refused so much in the last 14 months. We also believe the
2:15:03 > 2:15:06issue of an independent chair to come in and try and take on those
2:15:06 > 2:15:11talks to fruition is something the Secretary of State should be
2:15:11 > 2:15:14considering. If we simply continue with the cycle of failure that we
2:15:14 > 2:15:19have seen in the last year, if we do not try and change things up somehow
2:15:19 > 2:15:23and injected new energy and dynamism into this process than we can all
2:15:23 > 2:15:28see the danger that we do drift towards direct rule, and I know she
2:15:28 > 2:15:31feels that would be grossly retrograde step for Northern
2:15:31 > 2:15:34Ireland, so I would urge her to tell the House today and in the coming
2:15:34 > 2:15:38days what she's doing to make sure that isn't where we end up.
2:15:42 > 2:15:46Thank you. Can I congratulate my right honourable friend bringing for
2:15:46 > 2:15:49this measure. She is right to say this is something none of us wanted
2:15:49 > 2:15:54to seek, but it is preferable to section 59 of the Northern Ireland
2:15:54 > 2:16:00act, not least because it means a crude resources can be used and
2:16:00 > 2:16:03schedules two, three and four make sure those sums of money are
2:16:03 > 2:16:09substantial. But clearly this bill requires a budget to be set at some
2:16:09 > 2:16:14point. We hope in the future it will be set in Stormont are not here but
2:16:14 > 2:16:18it needs to be set. It would be useful to hear from the minister
2:16:18 > 2:16:24when she replies to the speeches of right honourable members that what
2:16:24 > 2:16:28timetable she envisages. I think we have grown used to timetables but
2:16:28 > 2:16:32somewhat flexible in recent months, indeed years, but it would be nice
2:16:32 > 2:16:37to have a sense of when she intends, as she has to bring forward a bill
2:16:37 > 2:16:43here, off when she will do that. I would like to thank the Secretary
2:16:43 > 2:16:48of State for her letter to me on March the 13th on the Northern
2:16:48 > 2:16:49Ireland supplementary estimate, following mine on the 28th of
2:16:49 > 2:16:53February. I think she satisfied all points that I raised on behalf of
2:16:53 > 2:16:58our select committee. Can I pressed her a little on efficiency savings?
2:16:58 > 2:17:01It is understood from the letter that the Northern Ireland
2:17:01 > 2:17:07administration has already scored the official review for 2017-20
2:17:07 > 2:17:15against that target, but that efficiency targets are still
2:17:15 > 2:17:19expected my question is how would this be ensured, will implement it
2:17:19 > 2:17:24and a it and what role she believes the auditor has in this respect? I
2:17:24 > 2:17:28will come back to talk about the role of the auditor in just a few
2:17:28 > 2:17:33minutes, if I may. In my letter I drew attention to the 79 million
2:17:33 > 2:17:41discrepancy between the cash grant and the estimate. The explanation is
2:17:41 > 2:17:44perfectly satisfactory, but my committee's scrutiny work would have
2:17:44 > 2:17:48been greatly assisted by early notification of that apparent
2:17:48 > 2:17:54discrepancy. Be sure, we will scrutinise this bill closely and the
2:17:54 > 2:17:59figures it contains and the budget when it appears. It is very
2:17:59 > 2:18:02important if there are discrepancies that those discrepancies are brought
2:18:02 > 2:18:07to the attention of my committee, or indeed the House, since scrutiny in
2:18:07 > 2:18:12current circumstances in this place is vitally important. Are we any
2:18:12 > 2:18:18further in quantifying the cost of systems envisioned under option two
2:18:18 > 2:18:23of paragraph 49 in December's joint report? If so, where and when will
2:18:23 > 2:18:28they appear in the subsequent estimates question but that is to
2:18:28 > 2:18:32say, the costs that will be involved in creating alternative solutions in
2:18:32 > 2:18:38order to ensure that the border in Northern Ireland is as frictionless
2:18:38 > 2:18:42and seamless as possible. Those costs are likely to be significant,
2:18:42 > 2:18:47if indeed such a solution can be created and it would be good to know
2:18:47 > 2:18:52that sufficient budgetary accommodation has been made for
2:18:52 > 2:18:58them. On the 8th of March in her written ministerial statement the
2:18:58 > 2:19:01Secretary of State announced 100 million from capital resource. It is
2:19:01 > 2:19:05uncommon. The Treasury dislikes and very good reason, so why precisely
2:19:05 > 2:19:09as it is unnecessary against a relatively generous Northern Ireland
2:19:09 > 2:19:14settlement this occasion, to introduce a capitalisation? The
2:19:14 > 2:19:18Treasury has made a rather unusual call for evidence in a piece of work
2:19:18 > 2:19:26it is doing an tourism. It wants evidence and VAT, APD to support and
2:19:26 > 2:19:29improved position for tourism in Northern Ireland. I very much
2:19:29 > 2:19:36welcomed that. My select committee took evidence on the subject
2:19:36 > 2:19:38recently and the Treasury documentation refers to that. It
2:19:38 > 2:19:42does seem to be an unusual intervention. Indeed, since many of
2:19:42 > 2:19:49the things that will help to be done as a response to any such report of
2:19:49 > 2:19:53the Treasury will be devolved. How does the Secretary of State see that
2:19:53 > 2:19:56work being carried forward? I'm sure she'd like me would not wish the
2:19:56 > 2:20:00Treasury to be embarked upon a piece of work that was not at the end of
2:20:00 > 2:20:03the day going to result in recommendations that could be
2:20:03 > 2:20:06carried forward. I imagine therefore that she, in collaboration with the
2:20:06 > 2:20:11Treasury, have worked out a pathway between recommendations that may
2:20:11 > 2:20:15come out of this piece of work and how they are going to be implemented
2:20:15 > 2:20:18and we can't necessarily assume, I'm sure she doesn't, that we will have
2:20:18 > 2:20:22an executive up and running within a time frame that will be suitable for
2:20:22 > 2:20:30this report. Of course I will. Of course, the honourable member is
2:20:30 > 2:20:34right, in respect of some of the recommendations that may come out of
2:20:34 > 2:20:38that report and whether ministers responsible to this house or to the
2:20:38 > 2:20:43assembly take those decisions as a matter we will have to wait and see
2:20:43 > 2:20:47what happens. In terms of the air passenger duty and value-added tax,
2:20:47 > 2:20:51the main purpose of having these reports, those are matters that this
2:20:51 > 2:20:56house. Those are matters for the Chancellor and for the Treasury,
2:20:56 > 2:20:59therefore the main purpose of the report will be a matter for this
2:20:59 > 2:21:04house. But the call for evidence goes much
2:21:04 > 2:21:09further than that and it isn't that chiefly I am concerned about. It
2:21:09 > 2:21:12does imply that competences will be available in the event that there is
2:21:12 > 2:21:17no executive in place that will carry that, otherwise it would be a
2:21:17 > 2:21:21fairly tight and narrow call for evidence.
2:21:21 > 2:21:24The Northern Ireland audit office this year will report on a number of
2:21:24 > 2:21:29things. It is a very, very busy office and we were very pleased
2:21:29 > 2:21:34indeed to be able to meet keirin Dominique recently in Belfast for
2:21:34 > 2:21:40evidence on the work of his department. -- Mr Donnelly. It will
2:21:40 > 2:21:43be reporting on digital transformation in Northern Ireland,
2:21:43 > 2:21:46welfare reform in Northern Ireland, speeding up avoidable delays in the
2:21:46 > 2:21:51justice system, financial health, schools and social investment fund.
2:21:51 > 2:21:56A lot of this has to do with increasing productivity in Northern
2:21:56 > 2:22:00Ireland and rebalancing the economy. It is not discretionary work it is
2:22:00 > 2:22:04of vital importance. It has to do with achieving value for money. My
2:22:04 > 2:22:10question really is, where will this work is leading? Sent if there is
2:22:10 > 2:22:19nobody to scrutinise the auditor, let alone in a body to take forward
2:22:19 > 2:22:22his recommendations, he may be crying in the wilderness. It is a
2:22:22 > 2:22:26bit of an irony that his work is geared towards value for money,
2:22:26 > 2:22:29since under those circumstances, that is to say those recommendations
2:22:29 > 2:22:32not being taken forward, some question would be revolving around
2:22:32 > 2:22:37the value for money posed by the auditor himself. It would be very
2:22:37 > 2:22:41useful to know what thought the Secretary of State have about how
2:22:41 > 2:22:51his reports can be properly examined by perhaps a shadow PAC made up by
2:22:51 > 2:23:08MLA members so some comments can be made on those
2:23:08 > 2:23:13I'd like to ask the Secretary of State is a little bit about the
2:23:13 > 2:23:15guidance she has recently offered permanent secretaries and the state
2:23:15 > 2:23:24of the guidance. On the 12th of March, the Secretary of State in
2:23:24 > 2:23:28answer to my question about budget granularity city had a permanent
2:23:28 > 2:23:34secretaries about her guidance on how money should be spent, she cited
2:23:34 > 2:23:36specifically health transformation money as an example one such was
2:23:36 > 2:23:41taking legal advice on the powers that might be available to her. I
2:23:41 > 2:23:44sympathise to her, dealing with lawyers is a tricky business at the
2:23:44 > 2:23:49best of times and this is I assume a legal minefield and she will want to
2:23:49 > 2:23:55make sure this is got right, not least because if it goes wrong there
2:23:55 > 2:23:58is every prospect of judicial review. I know very well she won't
2:23:58 > 2:24:02publish legal advice, but I wonder if she could publish the guidance
2:24:02 > 2:24:05that she has issued to permanent secretaries because my select
2:24:05 > 2:24:11committee and this House will want to know what guidance she has
2:24:11 > 2:24:17issued, the status of that guidance and the extent to which permanent
2:24:17 > 2:24:21secretaries will be acting upon it. In the measure we had today in the
2:24:21 > 2:24:25schedules, a whole raft of things are listed with big sums of money
2:24:25 > 2:24:31attached to them and it's important to understand whether we are dealing
2:24:31 > 2:24:35with governance by guidance or whether in fact this is simply
2:24:35 > 2:24:39helpful suggestions the permanent Secretary may be guided by because
2:24:39 > 2:24:44of course if he is judicially reviewed at some point for decisions
2:24:44 > 2:24:48made, the court will want to determine what status that guidance
2:24:48 > 2:24:54has and at the moment it appears to me that that is obscure. It becomes
2:24:54 > 2:24:58important in areas like infrastructure, and in the schedules
2:24:58 > 2:25:02to the bill we are discussing today, very large sums of money are
2:25:02 > 2:25:05attached to the Department for infrastructure and we know the
2:25:05 > 2:25:12Minister wishes to pass £400 million for particular infrastructure
2:25:12 > 2:25:17projects in connection with the confidence and supply agreement,
2:25:17 > 2:25:22particularly in two parts, £200 million in one financial year and
2:25:22 > 2:25:26200 in another. It is not clear to me what happens if within the time
2:25:26 > 2:25:30frame of the agreement that money is not spent, and the reason I ask that
2:25:30 > 2:25:38is like most honourable and right honourable members, the natural
2:25:38 > 2:25:43tendency is for these things to run and run. In the event the money is
2:25:43 > 2:25:48not spent, does the money accrued to the Treasury, is it spent on other
2:25:48 > 2:25:52things, as it sit at Stormont waiting for the glorious day of the
2:25:52 > 2:25:58restoration of the executive, what happens to those unspent funds. Can
2:25:58 > 2:26:02we also know more about what big-ticket items the Secretary of
2:26:02 > 2:26:05State has in mind since the wish list published by the executive
2:26:05 > 2:26:09before the collapse of the executive can't integrate or more than the
2:26:09 > 2:26:12York Street interchange which the Secretary of State has mentioned
2:26:12 > 2:26:17recently her remarks. Does the guidance issued for the permanent
2:26:17 > 2:26:20Secretary of the Department for infrastructure site perhaps in
2:26:20 > 2:26:23priority order what things are Secretary of State might think is
2:26:23 > 2:26:29important, that which she is aware is difficult because some of the
2:26:29 > 2:26:33parties in Northern Ireland are not keen on some of the projects and
2:26:33 > 2:26:36rather see other things so it is politically sensitive and it would
2:26:36 > 2:26:41be good to know what guidance the Secretary of State has issued to the
2:26:41 > 2:26:44Department for infrastructure on this important item of public
2:26:44 > 2:26:50expenditure. Can I ask the Secretary of State little bit about health
2:26:50 > 2:26:53transformation, in relation to the 100 million in the confidence supply
2:26:53 > 2:27:00agreement, it is most welcome, but we have to understand what
2:27:00 > 2:27:05transformation means. It isn't simply about opening clinics or
2:27:05 > 2:27:09hospitals, it's also about closing them. Point me last week by the
2:27:09 > 2:27:12honourable member for Pontypridd, and he was right to make the point,
2:27:12 > 2:27:17that there is nothing more political in what we do than the opening and
2:27:17 > 2:27:24closing of health care institutions. I know that very well from my own
2:27:24 > 2:27:27constituency experience. And as it really reasonable to expect
2:27:27 > 2:27:31permanent secretaries to be making decisions of that sort? Indeed would
2:27:31 > 2:27:36they make decisions of that sort? And if they weren't the risk is then
2:27:36 > 2:27:44go will be put on ice. Under those circumstances everybody loses it
2:27:44 > 2:27:48seems to me. One way forward with the legal avenue in which the
2:27:48 > 2:27:52Secretary of State can offer guidance that will perhaps be a
2:27:52 > 2:27:57little more prescriptive than might otherwise be the case. We won't know
2:27:57 > 2:28:00that in this place unless we have sight of the guidance that has been
2:28:00 > 2:28:08issued and are able to examine it. Does the Secretary of State share my
2:28:08 > 2:28:15concerns on policy drift and do nothing becoming the default option?
2:28:15 > 2:28:18The honourable lady the Member for Vauxhall who is not in her place
2:28:18 > 2:28:23gave a great example last week on the decisions needed to secure the
2:28:23 > 2:28:28Commonwealth youth games in 2021 and I know my right honourable friend
2:28:28 > 2:28:32because of her previous portfolio experience in this matter is acutely
2:28:32 > 2:28:36aware of the difficulties around this. A number of decisions have to
2:28:36 > 2:28:40be made around that and yet at the moment there is nobody to make those
2:28:40 > 2:28:45decisions. It's a poignant example around why it is so necessary for
2:28:45 > 2:28:49somebody, somewhere to be able to make those sorts of decisions and I
2:28:49 > 2:28:55know my right honourable friend was recently in Londonderry. It just
2:28:55 > 2:28:58happened she was visiting at the same time as my select committee on
2:28:58 > 2:29:03she will have learned from people in that fine city how frustrated they
2:29:03 > 2:29:09are that nobody appears to be making any decisions right now. This goes
2:29:09 > 2:29:12across community to regardless of community I would say almost, people
2:29:12 > 2:29:22just want things to happen. They see society being pulled back and the
2:29:22 > 2:29:29province has made so much progress over the years in every conceivable
2:29:29 > 2:29:32way, essentially marking time whilst the executive gets its act together
2:29:32 > 2:29:37and they will come a point where, with a heavy heart and the greatest
2:29:37 > 2:29:41of reluctance, ministers here will have to start to make decisions. We
2:29:41 > 2:29:46can all hope for a restoration of the executive but we might be hoping
2:29:46 > 2:29:50for a restoration of the executive in three years' time. In three
2:29:50 > 2:29:58years, the world will look very different place. Bengoa will
2:29:58 > 2:30:02probably have been forgotten. Some of the infrastructure projects may
2:30:02 > 2:30:06well have fallen by the wayside. All of this good stuff will not have
2:30:06 > 2:30:10happened and Northern Ireland will have slipped further behind, in
2:30:10 > 2:30:14every way imaginable. I think that would be a huge failure and I know
2:30:14 > 2:30:20the Secretary of State feels the same way.The honourable gentleman
2:30:20 > 2:30:25is absolutely 100% correct in what he has just said and he's right to
2:30:25 > 2:30:32point out that of course want devolution and efforts must continue
2:30:32 > 2:30:39to ensure that but in the meantime there are community suffering as a
2:30:39 > 2:30:42result of a lack of decision-making and as he is rightly said, in the
2:30:42 > 2:30:46meantime he must ensure decisions are made for the good of everyone
2:30:46 > 2:30:51and that is an extremely important point which I'm sure the Secretary
2:30:51 > 2:30:59of State will have heard very clearly.The honourable gentleman is
2:30:59 > 2:31:05absolutely correct. Can I finish my remarks on the hard inquiry.
2:31:05 > 2:31:08Honourable members are absolutely right to mention this in connection
2:31:08 > 2:31:13with the business before us today. The programme for government offers
2:31:13 > 2:31:18a very helpful pointer to ministers who may otherwise feel not
2:31:18 > 2:31:21particularly on safe ground in relation to making decisions and the
2:31:21 > 2:31:27Secretary of State and other ministers say it provides some basis
2:31:27 > 2:31:32on which they can take note of the last expressed democratic view on a
2:31:32 > 2:31:39number of issues. However, on the 12th of March at column 653 which
2:31:39 > 2:31:44deals with the hard inquiry, the Secretary of State suggested it is
2:31:44 > 2:31:48not the business of UK ministers or this place to consider
2:31:48 > 2:31:53recommendations of bodies set up by the executive, let alone implement
2:31:53 > 2:31:56them and she's repeated those sentiments today. It would be
2:31:56 > 2:31:59helpful just to have a bit of clarification because I fear we
2:31:59 > 2:32:04cannot have it both ways. We either observe what previous democratically
2:32:04 > 2:32:09elected bodies have determined before they crumbled or we don't and
2:32:09 > 2:32:13that extends to any bodies they may have established. I think it's an
2:32:13 > 2:32:16important principle because it seems to me that it is legitimate to take
2:32:16 > 2:32:23note of decisions previously made and the clear will of those bodies,
2:32:23 > 2:32:27particularly if there is no great controversy around them and I think
2:32:27 > 2:32:31it would be useful if the Secretary of State could clarify this point so
2:32:31 > 2:32:35we are a little bit clear going forward as to what we can rely upon
2:32:35 > 2:32:40and indeed what she will be relying upon in making any decisions and
2:32:40 > 2:32:47indeed issuing any guidance she might wish to reflect upon. Of
2:32:47 > 2:32:53course I will, just before I was about to sit down.I commend my
2:32:53 > 2:32:55honourable friend for his work and the work of his committee but would
2:32:55 > 2:32:59he acknowledge one of the challenges is there are no recommendations that
2:32:59 > 2:33:04have been agreed by the outgoing executive which obviously makes the
2:33:04 > 2:33:09job of the Secretary of State in determining the right way forward
2:33:09 > 2:33:12into this hugely sensitive issue of the hard inquiry, the
2:33:12 > 2:33:15recommendations that it has sought to bring forward, extremely
2:33:15 > 2:33:21difficult and why she needs to think carefully in terms of how best to
2:33:21 > 2:33:26assess the right way forward.My right honourable friend is
2:33:26 > 2:33:30absolutely right but if you read Hansard from last week you will see
2:33:30 > 2:33:42the argument extended not just to decisions may -- made by the
2:33:42 > 2:33:46Assembly but also the hard inquiry on the issue is whether we are
2:33:46 > 2:33:53guided by the recommendations made by those organisations or not and
2:33:53 > 2:34:00particularly if there appears to be generally cross-party cross
2:34:00 > 2:34:06community acceptance of those recommendations and findings. It's
2:34:06 > 2:34:11the best we have to work on the question really is whether we are
2:34:11 > 2:34:16guided by what happened before the collapse of the executive or we are
2:34:16 > 2:34:31not. I don't think we can easily be selective.Firstly can I start by
2:34:31 > 2:34:35echoing the comments about the recent 25th anniversary
2:34:35 > 2:34:38commemoration of a truly terrible event and I thank him for making
2:34:38 > 2:34:50that point. Why tall are taking decisions that should rightly be
2:34:50 > 2:34:55taken in Belfast. I take the opportunity to repeat the decision
2:34:55 > 2:34:59that policy decisions should be taken by ministers and the devolved
2:34:59 > 2:35:03administrations rather than in Whitehall. Unfortunately there are
2:35:03 > 2:35:07no ministers in the Stormont administration so I find myself in
2:35:07 > 2:35:09reluctant agreement with the Secretary of State that legislation
2:35:09 > 2:35:12must be passed here which will allow public services to operate in
2:35:12 > 2:35:18Northern Ireland. I have to say though, the parties elected to
2:35:18 > 2:35:23Stormont have failed the people who have put the trust in them and
2:35:23 > 2:35:27loaned them their votes. Plenty of excuses are being offered, posturing
2:35:27 > 2:35:31has been done but nobody has come out of negotiations with credit and
2:35:31 > 2:35:40the fact Stormont is still in suspended animation is a disgrace.
2:35:40 > 2:35:45People risked their huge amount to pursue peace. It is to be hoped the
2:35:45 > 2:35:48current set of politicians in Northern Ireland find the strength
2:35:48 > 2:35:52and the humility to get themselves back to the negotiating table to
2:35:52 > 2:35:56thrash out a deal and restart the Assembly so the budgets don't have
2:35:56 > 2:36:00to be passed here in the future. No matter what the reasons or excuses
2:36:00 > 2:36:06for the current position, that is the least effective should be
2:36:06 > 2:36:10entitled to expect. Turning to the bill itself, can I thank the
2:36:10 > 2:36:13Secretary of State for providing it yesterday afternoon, it's always
2:36:13 > 2:36:18good to have sight of legislation before it starts its progress. I'd
2:36:18 > 2:36:22like to take just a few moments to talk about the rational behind us
2:36:22 > 2:36:26tracking as laid out in the explanatory notes. I accept there
2:36:26 > 2:36:32should be no further delay. I acknowledge there is a need to allow
2:36:32 > 2:36:35continued spending on public services and I of course appreciate
2:36:35 > 2:36:39confidence in the supply is important. I find it difficult
2:36:39 > 2:36:45however to accept the delay we have witnessed so far. I will quote
2:36:45 > 2:36:55paragraph in the Explorer in the true notes for -- in the explanatory
2:36:55 > 2:36:59notes for clarity. The need for this bill arises from the lack of an
2:36:59 > 2:37:02agreement and the appointment of an executive within the timescale
2:37:02 > 2:37:06required for a budget bill to be brought through the Northern Ireland
2:37:06 > 2:37:10Assembly. It's taken forward at the latest possible points before the
2:37:10 > 2:37:14risk to public services could manifest. It's not been possible to
2:37:14 > 2:37:17give Parliament more time to scrutinise this bill without risking
2:37:17 > 2:37:22the delivery of public services in Northern Ireland or distracting from
2:37:22 > 2:37:28and undermining the talks aimed at restoring an executive.
2:37:29 > 2:37:31We have watched this situation grinding on for a long time now. We
2:37:31 > 2:37:37haven't been kept in the dark by issues real fabricated and we knew
2:37:37 > 2:37:41it was likely we were trundling towards this point. This
2:37:41 > 2:37:44legislation, in my view, should have been prepared and started in good
2:37:44 > 2:37:47time for it to be considered properly. It could have been
2:37:47 > 2:37:50abandoned if agreement had been reached. I can't accept the progress
2:37:50 > 2:37:55of the budget bill would distract from or undermined the talks aimed
2:37:55 > 2:37:59at restoring power-sharing and getting ministers in place. It might
2:37:59 > 2:38:04well have focused attention and sharpened the negotiations. The
2:38:04 > 2:38:06Secretary of State, to be fair, is not long in the job, a couple of
2:38:06 > 2:38:10months, but I think this should have been foreseen and her or her
2:38:10 > 2:38:13predecessor should have started the process. The drafting could have
2:38:13 > 2:38:16started without compromising anything. That said, we have arrived
2:38:16 > 2:38:19at this point and we have to deal with the situation we have, rather
2:38:19 > 2:38:23than the situation we would have preferred to have had. We have to
2:38:23 > 2:38:26provide the civil servants in Belfast with the resources they need
2:38:26 > 2:38:33to do their job properly and the public servants across Northern
2:38:33 > 2:38:35Ireland some certainty about the funding they need to continue
2:38:35 > 2:38:38operating. Literally, in some cases. I offer no amendment to this bill
2:38:38 > 2:38:46nor seek to impede its progress. I will accept it on the recommendation
2:38:46 > 2:38:49of the head of the civil service in conjunction with the Northern
2:38:49 > 2:38:52Ireland civil service board. Their knowledge of what is likely to be
2:38:52 > 2:38:56needed on the ground over the next financial year I think will outweigh
2:38:56 > 2:39:00any considerations that members here might have. The challenges that will
2:39:00 > 2:39:05lie ahead for them in the near future will be large, I do not envy
2:39:05 > 2:39:11them their tasks. As I said earlier, these decisions would be better
2:39:11 > 2:39:14taken by politicians are elected by that purpose by the people who will
2:39:14 > 2:39:18be affected by these decisions and is to be hoped, devoutly hoped, that
2:39:18 > 2:39:22this will be the last budget for Northern Ireland that gets set here.
2:39:22 > 2:39:26I urge all sides in the negotiations over power-sharing to get back to
2:39:26 > 2:39:31the table and find a resolution. In the meantime, this bill should be
2:39:31 > 2:39:35approved for the sake of keeping the lights and the heating and for
2:39:35 > 2:39:41public services. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can
2:39:41 > 2:39:46I start with an observation? It is interesting the way we are talking
2:39:46 > 2:39:50about Northern Ireland in this place and Brexit, that the benches are
2:39:50 > 2:39:53absolutely heaving and yet when we are talking about the budget for
2:39:53 > 2:39:56Northern Ireland, which is making a real impact on the day to day lives
2:39:56 > 2:39:59of the people in Northern Ireland right now, the benches are less
2:39:59 > 2:40:05fault. So I welcome the bill. Having served on the Northern Ireland
2:40:05 > 2:40:09affairs committee, and I have heard first-hand from some of the
2:40:09 > 2:40:13witnesses who came and attended how difficult life has been for people
2:40:13 > 2:40:16in Northern Ireland without a budget being in place. We heard from the
2:40:16 > 2:40:21Chief Constable of the PSN I how even in ordinary times life is
2:40:21 > 2:40:25difficult in the public sector, but when you are working to a budget
2:40:25 > 2:40:28that has not been set, it is almost impossible, and he explained how
2:40:28 > 2:40:33they were -- there were days, weeks or months where he did not know if
2:40:33 > 2:40:37he had the money to pay his officers. That is an unacceptable
2:40:37 > 2:40:40place to be. We also heard from the business
2:40:40 > 2:40:45community in Northern Ireland in the affairs committee around the
2:40:45 > 2:40:48difficulties that not having an assembly, not having a budget, not
2:40:48 > 2:40:52having an executive was putting on them. They gave a good example of
2:40:52 > 2:40:56the apprenticeship levy, where businesses are paying into it but
2:40:56 > 2:41:01because there is no budget in place, they have no access to the funds and
2:41:01 > 2:41:05apprenticeships in Northern Ireland are hugely at risk. This, for a part
2:41:05 > 2:41:09of the United Kingdom where apprenticeships are needed for all
2:41:09 > 2:41:13communities more than ever, and businesses are finding because of a
2:41:13 > 2:41:19lack of a budget that that apprenticeship levy is falling into
2:41:19 > 2:41:21a type of additional taxation for them.
2:41:21 > 2:41:26Having met the charities in Northern Ireland, particularly Addiction
2:41:26 > 2:41:29Northern Ireland, working with people trying to combat alcohol and
2:41:29 > 2:41:33drug addiction, not having a budget in place is having a huge impact on
2:41:33 > 2:41:37their ability not to provide an immediate service said much, but to
2:41:37 > 2:41:40plan long-term. These are difficult times for charities and not knowing
2:41:40 > 2:41:45where the next pennies are coming from and what direction they
2:41:45 > 2:41:49Northern Ireland government would be going in makes it almost impossible.
2:41:49 > 2:41:55Then we have the Belfast city deal, announced in the UK's budget late
2:41:55 > 2:41:59last year, but which is going absolutely nowhere as far as I know.
2:41:59 > 2:42:03Which is an opportunity for Belfast to build on its infrastructure,
2:42:03 > 2:42:11creates jobs, help... I will give way.
2:42:11 > 2:42:17I thank the honourable lady for giving way. Can I assure her that
2:42:17 > 2:42:23the Belfast City deal is going forward, that is being led by a
2:42:23 > 2:42:27consortium of the local councils. Belfast City Council, Antrim
2:42:27 > 2:42:35Newtownabbey and some others. And Middle East and from. So the absence
2:42:35 > 2:42:41of a devolved government is not in any way inhibiting the progress with
2:42:41 > 2:42:45the City deal, that is directly between central government and local
2:42:45 > 2:42:49government in Northern Ireland. I am very pleased to hear that
2:42:49 > 2:42:53because it is a huge opportunity for Belfast, but a huge opportunity for
2:42:53 > 2:42:56Northern Ireland and if it works well in Belfast, could be a huge
2:42:56 > 2:42:59opportunity for other parts of Northern Ireland in the future. So I
2:42:59 > 2:43:04am extremely pleased to hear that. So there is a huge impact in not
2:43:04 > 2:43:09having a budget set for this financial year, but I am greatly
2:43:09 > 2:43:13concerned that we do not have a budget for the next financial year
2:43:13 > 2:43:16because we have heard time and time again how difficult it has been for
2:43:16 > 2:43:21the charity sector, public services, for businesses. This constant
2:43:21 > 2:43:23uncertainty, a bit like the uncertainty around Brexit, is just
2:43:23 > 2:43:29not feasible for the long-term. I will give way.
2:43:29 > 2:43:33I appreciate the point the member is making, but we should be totally
2:43:33 > 2:43:40pessimistic. Unemployment is the lowest it's been a Northern Ireland,
2:43:40 > 2:43:463.9%, exports are up. We are not the only region of the world that from
2:43:46 > 2:43:49time to time doesn't have a stable government. Indeed, Germany didn't
2:43:49 > 2:43:53have a government first several months earlier this year.
2:43:53 > 2:43:57I thank the honourable gentleman. He makes a valid point, but this... I
2:43:57 > 2:44:04have heard him say himself, Madam Deputy Speaker, that he wants some
2:44:04 > 2:44:07certainty and some direction of travel. It isn't just about setting
2:44:07 > 2:44:11the budget, it's about the scrutiny about how that money is going to be
2:44:11 > 2:44:14spent, because the civil servants in Northern Ireland are doing a
2:44:14 > 2:44:19fantastic job. I think we are all putting on record to date our thanks
2:44:19 > 2:44:23to their dedication and hard work, but there does need to beat
2:44:23 > 2:44:27political decisions about how that money is allocated and there does
2:44:27 > 2:44:30need to be political scrutiny about how that money is being spent. So I
2:44:30 > 2:44:35do agree with my friend the honourable member for South West
2:44:35 > 2:44:39Wiltshire when he said currently there is a sense of Northern Ireland
2:44:39 > 2:44:43treading water and standing still, and actually the good work that is
2:44:43 > 2:44:49being done in reducing unemployment and creating jobs, the great Place
2:44:49 > 2:44:57Northern Ireland is is down to the hard work of people in the councils,
2:44:57 > 2:45:01elected members at council level who are continuing on, despite their not
2:45:01 > 2:45:06being an assembly or an executive, and the civil servants. But so much
2:45:06 > 2:45:10more could be achieved if there was an executive in place. So I have
2:45:10 > 2:45:17three asks of the ministers, because I don't want to be a pessimist and I
2:45:17 > 2:45:20hope I am not sounding too pessimistic but I don't think there
2:45:20 > 2:45:24is honestly a realistic possibility the assembly being re-formed just in
2:45:24 > 2:45:33the next few months. There does need to be serious consideration about
2:45:33 > 2:45:37the impact of not having a long-term budget for the next financial year.
2:45:37 > 2:45:42So, for the first ask, if there are members who will not get background
2:45:42 > 2:45:46that table and restore an assembly, could an assembly be restored with
2:45:46 > 2:45:51those who are willing to do that? And as is the case in this place, if
2:45:51 > 2:45:55MLAs choose not to get on that table, that is a personal decision
2:45:55 > 2:45:59for them. Is there a possibility of setting a budget for the next
2:45:59 > 2:46:03financial year, not just the first few months, so that public sectors
2:46:03 > 2:46:09like the PSNI and charities such as Addiction Northern Ireland, such as
2:46:09 > 2:46:11communities who really desperately need to know the direction of travel
2:46:11 > 2:46:17for their funding at some certainty? And, as was said by the honourable
2:46:17 > 2:46:21member for Edinburgh and Leith, that budget could be set and abandoned if
2:46:21 > 2:46:25an assembly suddenly came back to being.
2:46:25 > 2:46:28My third ask if could the Northern Ireland affairs committee be given
2:46:28 > 2:46:35some sort of task and authority to scrutinise out that spending is
2:46:35 > 2:46:40currently happening? Because without any scrutiny whatsoever, are we
2:46:40 > 2:46:46really sure that the money is being spent in the best interests of the
2:46:46 > 2:46:49people of Northern Ireland weather do welcome bill today, it is much
2:46:49 > 2:46:54needed but there is still a huge amount of work to do. I want to put
2:46:54 > 2:46:57on record my congratulations and thanks to the Secretary of work to
2:46:57 > 2:47:00do. I want to put on record my congratulations and thanks was doing
2:47:00 > 2:47:02so much to try make progress happen. These are difficult circumstances.
2:47:02 > 2:47:06None of us want to be here passing this bill. It is unnecessary
2:47:06 > 2:47:12necessity, but there is still so much work to be done.
2:47:12 > 2:47:20Thank you. Can I may be just personable start by making something
2:47:20 > 2:47:28clear about this debate? It is a technical debate, and I have to say,
2:47:28 > 2:47:31the misconceptions which have been in the chamber from some speakers
2:47:31 > 2:47:39today are not uncommon, because as a member for North Belfast will know,
2:47:39 > 2:47:43when we were in the Northern Ireland assembly and in the Department of
2:47:43 > 2:47:48Finance job, very often this debate degenerated into a budget debate,
2:47:48 > 2:47:53where people came forward with all the things they wanted to spend
2:47:53 > 2:47:57money on, when in actual fact it was nothing to do with setting a budget.
2:47:57 > 2:48:03It was a misconception which the Shadow Secretary of State fell into.
2:48:03 > 2:48:08I don't want to go through all of his mistakes. He talked about this
2:48:08 > 2:48:12being a pretty poor way of dealing with above it. We are not actually
2:48:12 > 2:48:15dealing with the budget, and, of course, this would have been an
2:48:15 > 2:48:21essential step even if it had been in the Northern Ireland assembly.
2:48:21 > 2:48:24Also he talked about these general headings and how it hadn't changed,
2:48:24 > 2:48:30and of course quite right, unless you change the remit of the
2:48:30 > 2:48:35department you would not change the kind of headings of expenditure.
2:48:35 > 2:48:38Though there are significant points that need to be addressed in the
2:48:38 > 2:48:44future by the Secretary of State. So this debate is really about first of
2:48:44 > 2:48:50all, how did departments spend their money last year? And, of course, as
2:48:50 > 2:48:56these figures will show, some of them spent more than what was
2:48:56 > 2:49:00originally allocated. Some spent significantly less than what was
2:49:00 > 2:49:03originally allocated, for example spent over a third less than what
2:49:03 > 2:49:08had been originally allocated. Though I note that this year it is
2:49:08 > 2:49:12going to be allocated the same amount of money as it was given last
2:49:12 > 2:49:17year, even though it underspent by third. Maybe the Secretary of State
2:49:17 > 2:49:21can tell us why that decision was made when there was such a high
2:49:21 > 2:49:29underspend. So it looks back at the past. What was allocated, what was
2:49:29 > 2:49:34spent, what additional money had to be given to some departments, for
2:49:34 > 2:49:39example health and education, and where did that money come from? It
2:49:39 > 2:49:44came from some departments which underspent. And, of course, that
2:49:44 > 2:49:48additional expenditure or that reduction in expenditure has to be
2:49:48 > 2:49:52authorised. This is what this particular bill is doing. Then,
2:49:52 > 2:50:01looking forward, a budget actually has been set for Northern Ireland.
2:50:01 > 2:50:04The Secretary of State did that a couple of weeks ago. Each department
2:50:04 > 2:50:12knows at -- its expenditure limits the next year but until a budget
2:50:12 > 2:50:15bill goes through, and that will take some time, department up to
2:50:15 > 2:50:21have legal authority to spend up until the time that that bill goes
2:50:21 > 2:50:27through. Hence the reason why 45% of the budget is allocated in this
2:50:27 > 2:50:35particular bill, so that departments can, with confidence, spend as they
2:50:35 > 2:50:40know how much money is available to them and they know the kind of
2:50:40 > 2:50:45limits within which they have to spend the money. So I think it's
2:50:45 > 2:50:49important that we can understand what we are actually debating here
2:50:49 > 2:50:56today. This is not about, well you should have given more money to the
2:50:56 > 2:50:59Department for Education. Or the Department for Education should be
2:50:59 > 2:51:02spending money on this, or the inquiry should have more money
2:51:02 > 2:51:07allocated to it. Those are decisions... Though having said and
2:51:07 > 2:51:11having raised those issues, the members who did raise those issues
2:51:11 > 2:51:17have illustrated a very important point, which the Secretary of State
2:51:17 > 2:51:22needs to address. That is that simply giving departments the
2:51:22 > 2:51:26information about the amount of money which they are going to have
2:51:26 > 2:51:32available to them next year does not give them the ability to spend that
2:51:32 > 2:51:37money, because there are some things which civil servants are going to
2:51:37 > 2:51:43need direction about. So having taken the first step, that the
2:51:43 > 2:51:52Secretary of State has taken, namely selling the -- setting departmental
2:51:52 > 2:51:55budget limits, giving us the statement, now going through this
2:51:55 > 2:52:01Bill, which authorises expenditure last year, which is historical, but
2:52:01 > 2:52:05giving some money to start off next year, the big important step and the
2:52:05 > 2:52:13big important political step is that in the absence of an assembly, when
2:52:13 > 2:52:22is she going to then either give permanent secretaries more power, or
2:52:22 > 2:52:26have ministers take responsibility for spending the money which is
2:52:26 > 2:52:32actually allocated? We can bore the House without this afternoon, but
2:52:32 > 2:52:34let me take one example of the Department of the economy.
2:52:38 > 2:52:43Here are some of the things listed the Department of economy will get,
2:52:43 > 2:52:49roughly 1000 million pounds and some of that will be spent on air access.
2:52:49 > 2:52:54If we want to authorise new routes, that is going to require a
2:52:54 > 2:52:59ministerial decision, no civil servant will do that. It's going to
2:52:59 > 2:53:08have to develop regulatory reform on minerals and petroleum licensing. We
2:53:08 > 2:53:17are sitting on one of the most lucrative gold mines not in Europe
2:53:17 > 2:53:20but in the world. There are issues around it and they will not be
2:53:20 > 2:53:34resolved by civil servants. There are hundreds of jobs in the west of
2:53:34 > 2:53:38the province where our role in employment is difficult to obtain
2:53:38 > 2:53:44but to make decisions about that it's not enough to simply say to the
2:53:44 > 2:53:48Department of the economy there is a thousand million pounds. Decisions
2:53:48 > 2:53:54have to be made about and direction has to be given as to the
2:53:54 > 2:53:58development of the regulations and decisions where controversies are
2:53:58 > 2:54:05going to arise. Assistance of the gas and electricity industries,
2:54:05 > 2:54:14particularly relevant to my own constituency. As a result of the
2:54:14 > 2:54:19auction, a power station is likely to close, supplying on occasions 45%
2:54:19 > 2:54:26of the power to Northern Ireland. And a decision has to be made
2:54:26 > 2:54:30because the regulator wants it kept open for three years but there is no
2:54:30 > 2:54:35guarantee it will sell one kilowatt of electricity, and quite rightly
2:54:35 > 2:54:38the owners are saying we are not going to keep it open for three
2:54:38 > 2:54:49years if we are not guaranteed any seals -- any sales.
2:54:49 > 2:54:55Telecommunications infrastructure, it's not included in this bill but
2:54:55 > 2:55:01there has been £150 million allocated for infrastructure and
2:55:01 > 2:55:08broadband in Northern Ireland. But again, the decisions will require
2:55:08 > 2:55:24ministerial direction. We give 60% or 40% of the budget, yet here we
2:55:24 > 2:55:31have a cross-border body. Is it advertising and promoting tourism in
2:55:31 > 2:55:36Northern Ireland? No, tourism in the Irish Republic. The ministerial
2:55:36 > 2:55:40decision is do we continue to spend money to the amount we do on a
2:55:40 > 2:55:45cross-border body like that when it is to the detriment of Northern
2:55:45 > 2:55:55Ireland? Is the member saying very clearly to the House the Secretary
2:55:55 > 2:55:59of State should make those ministerial decisions or that she
2:55:59 > 2:56:06should appoint other ministers from here to make those decisions?
2:56:06 > 2:56:13I'm only taking at random through one department you can do the same
2:56:13 > 2:56:24with every other department. When it comes to spending the money, the
2:56:24 > 2:56:41Secretary of State has a combination. We need a mechanism,
2:56:41 > 2:56:46which will require intervention. Otherwise we will find that the
2:56:46 > 2:56:51departments receive the money and be either continue to spend it as they
2:56:51 > 2:56:55are doing at present without any policy development, without looking
2:56:55 > 2:57:01at the changes which have occurred in Northern Ireland, changes in
2:57:01 > 2:57:04situations, and then undertake to spend the money in that particular
2:57:04 > 2:57:15direction.Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. There are actually three
2:57:15 > 2:57:20options, the third option is we all want to see and that the DUP getting
2:57:20 > 2:57:24back into talks with Sinn Fein to establish the executive and the
2:57:24 > 2:57:32Assembly. So what exactly is holding up the DUP?Let me comment because
2:57:32 > 2:57:41that is where I was wanting to go to. Unfortunately the decisions we
2:57:41 > 2:57:50have had to date, a budget statement two weeks ago, in Northern Ireland
2:57:50 > 2:57:54budget anticipation and adjustments bill, and a full budget bill
2:57:54 > 2:58:02probably in June is the inevitable consequence not of reluctance by the
2:58:02 > 2:58:07DUP to do the work which is required. From the day the election
2:58:07 > 2:58:14was held last year, the very next morning we were saying let's get
2:58:14 > 2:58:19back into Stormont on let's do these things. We didn't lay down any
2:58:19 > 2:58:27conditions. Sinn Fein laid down conditions which fell nothing short
2:58:27 > 2:58:33of blackmail. Blackmail insofar as they make demands for things which
2:58:33 > 2:58:36the new have they gone into an Assembly and asked for some of the
2:58:36 > 2:58:41things which they had asked for in talks, they would never have got
2:58:41 > 2:58:44through the Assembly. They could never have persuaded of the parties,
2:58:44 > 2:58:47even when it came to Irish language, they could never have persuaded the
2:58:47 > 2:58:53other parties must of whom they have said are sympathetic, they could
2:58:53 > 2:58:57never have persuaded those parties to give them the kind of Irish
2:58:57 > 2:59:01language bill they wanted so they made a decision - let's not go back
2:59:01 > 2:59:09into the Assembly until we have been given an assurance that there will
2:59:09 > 2:59:13be delivered as a price of us going into the Assembly something we could
2:59:13 > 2:59:17never have negotiated, we couldn't have debated, we could never have
2:59:17 > 2:59:22argued for, we could never have persuaded anybody to give us had we
2:59:22 > 2:59:28been using the Assembly mechanism. I know the lady from North Down
2:59:28 > 2:59:32continually tries to share the blame on this but let me make something
2:59:32 > 2:59:39clear. The reason why we have this debate here today is not because of
2:59:39 > 2:59:43any reluctance on behalf of my party, it is because we will not
2:59:43 > 2:59:50give into the of blackmail that we have experienced by Sinn Fein. Then
2:59:50 > 2:59:56of course they make it even more difficult because they create such a
2:59:56 > 3:00:00toxic atmosphere in Northern Ireland that even if you were daft enough to
3:00:00 > 3:00:06give them what they wanted, you would have been pilloried for it.
3:00:06 > 3:00:13When you have for example an MP elected to this House but not
3:00:13 > 3:00:20attending, dancing around a garage at midnight, mocking the victims of
3:00:20 > 3:00:25IRA terrorism, people who were taken out by a minibus on their way home
3:00:25 > 3:00:29and gunned down, and then you say we want to sit down and talk to you
3:00:29 > 3:00:34about the way forward and about respect. And when you have the
3:00:34 > 3:00:39former finance minister of the Assembly doing the same, then of
3:00:39 > 3:00:52course it's impossible to reach the kind of agreement that would get us
3:00:52 > 3:00:55back into an Assembly and for that reason we welcome the fact she has
3:00:55 > 3:01:03acted. She hasn't been tardy in this because had this bill being
3:01:03 > 3:01:08presented to the Assembly, it would have been presented around this time
3:01:08 > 3:01:11of the year anyway. Some poor finance minister in the Assembly
3:01:11 > 3:01:20would have been standing up and would have probably endured, and I
3:01:20 > 3:01:23use the words deliberately, probably have endured a six hour debate about
3:01:23 > 3:01:28what should be in the budget and would be gnashing his teeth and
3:01:28 > 3:01:32continually reminding the Speaker this is not what the debate is
3:01:32 > 3:01:37about, and members would have ignored him or her and continued to
3:01:37 > 3:01:46talk about it anyway. If this had been brought forward earlier, we
3:01:46 > 3:01:53would not have known how much departments would have been
3:01:53 > 3:01:57underspent or overspent. This is as close to the end of the year as we
3:01:57 > 3:02:00can possibly get and when it comes to June the final accounts will be
3:02:00 > 3:02:03made available so we will know that if there had been changes in the
3:02:03 > 3:02:07last couple of weeks of the month and adjustments to be made, they can
3:02:07 > 3:02:22be reflected in the figures which are given.Thank you, again. The
3:02:22 > 3:02:25honourable gentleman has painted a bleak picture sadly about the
3:02:25 > 3:02:30prospects for the restoration of a devolved Assembly and an executive
3:02:30 > 3:02:34this side of the summer. That being the case, what the right honourable
3:02:34 > 3:02:42gentleman confirm on the record for the victims of historical
3:02:42 > 3:02:48institutional abuse, that it will be an order for the Secretary of State
3:02:48 > 3:02:57to implement the Hart proposals? These victims are elderly and infirm
3:02:57 > 3:03:02and many don't suffer good health. It should be intolerable that they
3:03:02 > 3:03:07be kept like this.That would be a matter for the Secretary of State,
3:03:07 > 3:03:13though I think it has been pointed out regularly during this debate,
3:03:13 > 3:03:17one of the considerations she should be making when coming to that
3:03:17 > 3:03:21decision is whether or not some of those institutions which at least
3:03:21 > 3:03:27turned a blind eye to the abuse should also be held culpable and
3:03:27 > 3:03:31should have to make some contribution towards the
3:03:31 > 3:03:36conversation. It should not fall totally on the public purse but that
3:03:36 > 3:03:40is a decision which the Secretary of State would have to make, the view
3:03:40 > 3:03:45which we would have on that if we were consulted on it would be that
3:03:45 > 3:03:50yes, there is a role for the state but there is also a role for those
3:03:50 > 3:03:54institutions which at least turned a blind eye to some of the terrible
3:03:54 > 3:04:01abuse that went on and therefore allowed so many victims to
3:04:01 > 3:04:07experience the terrible things which happened to them. In conclusion, Mr
3:04:07 > 3:04:15Deputy Speaker, I welcome this. But I warn the Secretary of State, it is
3:04:15 > 3:04:19but a first step. It is one thing to allocate money to departments, it's
3:04:19 > 3:04:24another thing to ensure that departments and civil servants
3:04:24 > 3:04:28within those departments of the guidance, the direction and the
3:04:28 > 3:04:35authority to spend the money.As always, it's a pleasure to follow
3:04:35 > 3:04:38the right honourable gentleman from East Antrim, who spoke with great
3:04:38 > 3:04:40authority and eloquence and of course he speaks with authority as
3:04:40 > 3:04:46he said as a former minister for Finance in Northern Ireland and he
3:04:46 > 3:04:50and I both have the experience of serving within that office in the
3:04:50 > 3:04:53Northern Ireland executive so I empathise with his frustration when
3:04:53 > 3:05:00it comes to replying to some of these kind of debates because I well
3:05:00 > 3:05:03remember civil servants are preparing a host of answers to
3:05:03 > 3:05:06possible questions that might arise in the course of this kind of debate
3:05:06 > 3:05:11and I remember after a year or to of experience being able to tell them
3:05:11 > 3:05:15they could discard all those preparations since the same issues
3:05:15 > 3:05:18would arise as had risen in every previous debate of this type which
3:05:18 > 3:05:22would be totally relevant to the debate and they should just get on
3:05:22 > 3:05:26and prepare the press release. Thankfully that hasn't been as much
3:05:26 > 3:05:31of that in this debate so far and the right honourable gentleman has
3:05:31 > 3:05:37clearly set out what this bill actually does. I too welcome the
3:05:37 > 3:05:42fact the Secretary of State has brought this bill to the House
3:05:42 > 3:05:50today. I think it is timely and it is the start of decision-making for
3:05:50 > 3:05:54Northern Ireland, ending the drift and it's an important milestone in
3:05:54 > 3:05:58that regard. I fully empathise with the point that was made by the
3:05:58 > 3:06:03honourable member for Lewis when she spoke earlier about the empty
3:06:03 > 3:06:07benches. I suppose in one way you could say it is actually quite a
3:06:07 > 3:06:12good sign in the sense that it seems after all taking decisions at
3:06:12 > 3:06:15Westminster isn't that controversial. At the end of the day
3:06:15 > 3:06:19there seems to be a broad consensus in the sense there is nobody here
3:06:19 > 3:06:27that I heard talking about how terrible it would all be, even here
3:06:27 > 3:06:34to make these points so it is a significant development. And also
3:06:34 > 3:06:38who those who she alluded to him speak about their concern for the
3:06:38 > 3:06:43economy and the future and about having no hard border, when it comes
3:06:43 > 3:06:46to the nitty-gritty financial management and decisions for
3:06:46 > 3:06:51Northern Ireland, they are not here. These are people who speak a lot
3:06:51 > 3:06:56about Northern Ireland in terms of Brexit but who never show interest
3:06:56 > 3:07:03at another time. It raises questions in our mind to what extent Brexit...
3:07:03 > 3:07:07Northern Ireland and the Belfast agreement and our political
3:07:07 > 3:07:13situation is being used by some people to thwart Brexit or to shape
3:07:13 > 3:07:20a Brexit they would like for the whole of the UK.
3:07:20 > 3:07:24So I commend those members of the House on both sides who are here
3:07:24 > 3:07:29today and who are making a contribution on this important
3:07:29 > 3:07:34matter, and it is an important matter. I reiterate the point the
3:07:34 > 3:07:37right honourable member for East Antrim has made already, that we do
3:07:37 > 3:07:41not wish to be in this situation. We would far rather these matters were
3:07:41 > 3:07:48being decided and decisions being taken in Stormont and indeed it is
3:07:48 > 3:07:55ironic that in late December 2016 when the then Finance minister, the
3:07:55 > 3:07:59member of Sinn Fein, had the ability to bring forward measures in the
3:07:59 > 3:08:03budget he refused to do so consistently, to bring matters even
3:08:03 > 3:08:08to the Northern Ireland executive in the fall and certain knowledge they
3:08:08 > 3:08:12would crash the institutions early in January over matters that were
3:08:12 > 3:08:17totally extraneous to the programmes of government or anything they had
3:08:17 > 3:08:22raised in discussion with us prior to that point. I give way.
3:08:22 > 3:08:28Had the member who he is referring still being finance minister and
3:08:28 > 3:08:31this situation arisen, he would probably be breathing a sigh of
3:08:31 > 3:08:34relief because he hadn't the courage to take the political decisions to
3:08:34 > 3:08:40bring forward, the only finance minister ever to do so, would rather
3:08:40 > 3:08:45whinge and point the finger at the party opposite.
3:08:45 > 3:08:48The right honourable gentleman makes an interesting point, because it is
3:08:48 > 3:08:54clear that unlike ourselves, and there is a fairly good illustration
3:08:54 > 3:08:57which proves the point that the right honourable gentleman has made,
3:08:57 > 3:09:02and it is over the issue of welfare reform. In which we were faced with
3:09:02 > 3:09:05a very difficult situation in Northern Ireland, where because of
3:09:05 > 3:09:10welfare cuts and changes to welfare benefits, there were mitigations
3:09:10 > 3:09:15that were negotiated by the then Minister, which certainly helped the
3:09:15 > 3:09:18situation as far as Northern Ireland was concerned, but generally
3:09:18 > 3:09:24speaking presented at difficult position for all the parties in
3:09:24 > 3:09:26Northern Ireland but the parties, including Athos, to those hard
3:09:26 > 3:09:29decisions and brought them to the assembly and Sinn Fein refused to go
3:09:29 > 3:09:33along with it, because of the make-up of the assembly and the veto
3:09:33 > 3:09:38principle, they were able to block it. The institutions almost
3:09:38 > 3:09:42collapsed as a result. We had to have the Stormont house negotiations
3:09:42 > 3:09:46on the fresh start negotiations in order to prevent the collapse of the
3:09:46 > 3:09:50assembly, because as the right honourable gentleman points out,
3:09:50 > 3:09:54there is a refusal on the part of Sinn Fein in particular to actually
3:09:54 > 3:09:59take our decisions. To work within the parameters of a devolved
3:09:59 > 3:10:03legislature that has to set budgets and work within the block grant.
3:10:03 > 3:10:07That is part of the problem. One of the reasons we are now in this
3:10:07 > 3:10:13situation. As far as we are concerned, we have always been in
3:10:13 > 3:10:18the position that we were in December 2016, at the time of the
3:10:18 > 3:10:25elections in March 2017 and every day since: we stand ready in this
3:10:25 > 3:10:30party to get back into the Government immediately, without any
3:10:30 > 3:10:34preconditions, without any red lines, to tackle the issues which
3:10:34 > 3:10:39matter to the people of Northern Ireland and that any survey and any
3:10:39 > 3:10:42poll done right across both communities, the issues that matter
3:10:42 > 3:10:49to people are the issues that matter to people everywhere... Health
3:10:49 > 3:10:52spending, education, infrastructure, housing, the environment. These are
3:10:52 > 3:10:55things people care about and they want their politicians to be
3:10:55 > 3:11:00delivering on them and dealing with them, and so do we. That is why we
3:11:00 > 3:11:04are mystified and why most people in Northern Ireland are bewildered at
3:11:04 > 3:11:09the fact that Sinn Fein could very narrow partisan political issues
3:11:09 > 3:11:13above dealing with these issues. When we put forward a proposition
3:11:13 > 3:11:16that we could do with those issues of concern to Sinn Fein in parallel
3:11:16 > 3:11:20with getting the institutions up and running, with dealings are big
3:11:20 > 3:11:24issues that affect all of us, and would even time-limit the duration
3:11:24 > 3:11:27of the assembly to ensure there was no bad faith on our part, that was
3:11:27 > 3:11:34rejected out of hand. So let us be very, very clear. Devolution is our
3:11:34 > 3:11:38first option and is our clear preference. We are not the barriers
3:11:38 > 3:11:41to devolution in Northern Ireland, nor I believe are other smaller
3:11:41 > 3:11:49parties like the Ulster Unionists. It is very clear what is blocking
3:11:49 > 3:11:54devolution. But the point that we also make over and over again, and
3:11:54 > 3:11:57it's a point that was emphasised strongly by the chairman of the
3:11:57 > 3:12:01Northern Ireland's select affairs committee in his contribution
3:12:01 > 3:12:06earlier. He is absolutely correct in this, is that without prejudice
3:12:06 > 3:12:11kitting devolution up and running, without prejudice efforts to get
3:12:11 > 3:12:16that happening, we do need decisions to be made. A point also alluded to
3:12:16 > 3:12:20by the honourable lady from Lewis. It is the fact there are no
3:12:20 > 3:12:24ministers in place that is causing drift and putting Northern Ireland
3:12:24 > 3:12:28into limbo. It is the reason that we don't have some of the decisions
3:12:28 > 3:12:31made in the Department of the economy that my right honourable
3:12:31 > 3:12:37friend referred to. It isn't the absence of an executive per se but
3:12:37 > 3:12:45the absence of ministers, and as the chairman of the Northern Ireland
3:12:45 > 3:12:48select affairs committee said, this situation cannot go on for much
3:12:48 > 3:12:52longer. The various decisions that need to be made by ministers are
3:12:52 > 3:12:58decisions basically about allocation and prioritisation. Civil servants
3:12:58 > 3:13:04cannot make those decisions, because otherwise they are just making
3:13:04 > 3:13:08personal decisions, they are not accountable. That cannot continue.
3:13:08 > 3:13:12So therefore we do need to ensure that something is done about that
3:13:12 > 3:13:18and done about it in a relatively short space of time.
3:13:18 > 3:13:21I thank my right honourable friend for giving way. Would he agree with
3:13:21 > 3:13:28me that what is part of the problem in the wider community in Northern
3:13:28 > 3:13:32Ireland, many disillusioned with politics, but disillusion and the
3:13:32 > 3:13:40very lack of what he has outlined as ministerial decision making in order
3:13:40 > 3:13:45to address the issues of everyone, not just a small part of the
3:13:45 > 3:13:48community? The honourable member is absolutely
3:13:48 > 3:13:52right. When I have constituency surgeries and meet with them and
3:13:52 > 3:13:57discuss with them as we all do as members of parliament, the matters
3:13:57 > 3:14:00of individual concern or wider issues, over and over again, it
3:14:00 > 3:14:03doesn't matter whether people from a nationalist or unionist background,
3:14:03 > 3:14:07but what they are lamenting is the fact that decisions are not being
3:14:07 > 3:14:13made. The recent lobby of this place by a large group of people
3:14:13 > 3:14:17interested and affected by mental health issues was a glaring example.
3:14:17 > 3:14:25They made a cross-party, cross community plea which was - please
3:14:25 > 3:14:30give us some one that we can lobby. Please give us and that can take
3:14:30 > 3:14:35decisions on a trauma centre for Northern Ireland, and as someone who
3:14:35 > 3:14:39represents the constituency that has the highest rate of suicide in
3:14:39 > 3:14:42Northern Ireland, and indeed the United Kingdom, this is an issue
3:14:42 > 3:14:45which I feel very, very strongly about and there needs to be
3:14:45 > 3:14:50something done about it, in terms of decision-making. We have secured, as
3:14:50 > 3:14:55a result of the confident supply agreement, extra money to be spent
3:14:55 > 3:15:00on mental health specifically in Northern Ireland, but when you talk
3:15:00 > 3:15:03to the civil servants in the Department of Health and elsewhere,
3:15:03 > 3:15:07they are not able to outline how they are going to spend that because
3:15:07 > 3:15:12they have no ministerial direction to stop the money can be allocated,
3:15:12 > 3:15:15as my right honourable friend has said, but decisions within the
3:15:15 > 3:15:18department need to be made by a minister.
3:15:18 > 3:15:24Yes, I will give way. Thank you. I thank my right
3:15:24 > 3:15:29honourable friend from Belfast North for giving weight, and also the
3:15:29 > 3:15:34contribution from my right honourable friend for Antrim East. I
3:15:34 > 3:15:44don't quite understand why a minister will not come to make such
3:15:44 > 3:15:48decisions shortly. We are not at that stage yet, as far as I can
3:15:48 > 3:15:54ascertain, but there seems to me no reason why a minister should not
3:15:54 > 3:16:01take that decision. We're not going back to direct rule, we might be
3:16:01 > 3:16:07going to pragmatic and also legal decisions required to look after the
3:16:07 > 3:16:11community of Northern Ireland. And that might come about, surely,
3:16:11 > 3:16:16relatively shortly. The honourable gentleman makes a
3:16:16 > 3:16:20very sensible and reasonable and pragmatic point, if I may say so,
3:16:20 > 3:16:25and he does it, as always, given his strong interest in affairs to do
3:16:25 > 3:16:29with Northern Ireland. I know he speaks from the heart and from an
3:16:29 > 3:16:32interest to make sure Northern Ireland keeps moving forward. And
3:16:32 > 3:16:40that is our only concern. We want to make sure that everybody
3:16:40 > 3:16:42across-the-board is not detrimentally affected by the lack
3:16:42 > 3:16:46of ministers. Likewise, it was back concerned to ensure people
3:16:46 > 3:16:49across-the-board, in both communities, had their lives
3:16:49 > 3:16:54improved that we argued that the confidence and supply arrangements
3:16:54 > 3:17:01should include an extra £1 billion in cash resources for Northern
3:17:01 > 3:17:06Ireland, to be spent across a range of subjects which would benefit
3:17:06 > 3:17:11everybody. That is in addition to the extra half £1 billion in
3:17:11 > 3:17:17flexibilities, in terms of previous monies allocated.
3:17:17 > 3:17:21I welcome the fact the Secretary of State in recent days has announced
3:17:21 > 3:17:26the budget for Northern Ireland to include the £410 million, the first
3:17:26 > 3:17:30tranche of the substantial part of that confidence and supply
3:17:30 > 3:17:33arrangement. There were people who said over and over again in the
3:17:33 > 3:17:36media and elsewhere that that money would never come to Northern
3:17:36 > 3:17:43Ireland. That it was a pipe dream. It has now been delivered. They also
3:17:43 > 3:17:46said it wouldn't come in the absence of an executive. That has been
3:17:46 > 3:17:50proved wrong as well, although I don't hear them saying much about
3:17:50 > 3:17:55it, though they were very vocal previously. And they also said that
3:17:55 > 3:18:00it couldn't come because there was no Parliamentary authority for it,
3:18:00 > 3:18:03but we are now getting Parliament authorities through this bill for
3:18:03 > 3:18:09the money that is to be spent this financial year, and there will be
3:18:09 > 3:18:13proper Parliamentary authority given to all the rest of it, just as is to
3:18:13 > 3:18:20be expected and is the normal process.
3:18:20 > 3:18:24Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman
3:18:24 > 3:18:28for letting me intervene. I have listened carefully to what the
3:18:28 > 3:18:32honourable gentleman has had to say and he made it quite clear that on
3:18:32 > 3:18:37behalf of his party there are no red lines. He has also made it quite
3:18:37 > 3:18:43clear that his constituents, indeed my constituents, people across
3:18:43 > 3:18:45Northern Ireland are anxious to see their assembly back again and
3:18:45 > 3:18:51ministers making decisions. So what exactly is holding up the DUP
3:18:51 > 3:18:55getting back into talks with Sinn Fein and seeing successfully the
3:18:55 > 3:19:00restoration of devolution in Northern Ireland, for the benefit of
3:19:00 > 3:19:05everybody? Well, I could believe everything the
3:19:05 > 3:19:09right honourable member for East Antrim said. The honourable lady has
3:19:09 > 3:19:13said please don't, so I won't. If she didn't understand it the first
3:19:13 > 3:19:16time, I don't think she is going to understand it even though I repeat
3:19:16 > 3:19:25it. The fact of the matter is we are no barrier to devolution, neither
3:19:25 > 3:19:29are the Ulster Unionists or the DUP. Perhaps more pressure exerted on
3:19:29 > 3:19:33those who are the barrier would be more productive and sensible.
3:19:33 > 3:19:39The fact of the matter is this is a very positive move, in terms of
3:19:39 > 3:19:42breaking the logjam and the drift that has continued for too long in
3:19:42 > 3:19:46Northern Ireland. It sends a very strong message to everyone,
3:19:46 > 3:19:51including the parties that have been reluctant so far in terms of forming
3:19:51 > 3:19:55the executive. That decisions will be taken. Decisions will be taken
3:19:55 > 3:19:59for the good of the people of Northern Ireland.With the right
3:19:59 > 3:20:02honourable gentleman give way?I will.
3:20:02 > 3:20:08Thank you. It is exceedingly generous of the right honourable
3:20:08 > 3:20:12gentleman. I wanted him to reflect for a few moments on the fact I
3:20:12 > 3:20:15think it is tomorrow which marks the first anniversary of the death of
3:20:15 > 3:20:21Martin McGuinness.Martin McGuinness sat in a very successful period of
3:20:21 > 3:20:25devolved government with his then party leader, in Paisley senior.
3:20:25 > 3:20:29Sadly both of them are no longer with us. There was remarkable
3:20:29 > 3:20:33generosity of spirit shown by both gentleman at the time. Could the DUP
3:20:33 > 3:20:36indicate a general state of spirit to get back into talks without any
3:20:36 > 3:20:42hesitation or red lines? The honourable lady is right to
3:20:42 > 3:20:49refer to the efforts that were made by the previous leader in Northern
3:20:49 > 3:20:55Ireland and my previous leader, the great efforts made, and to their
3:20:55 > 3:20:59successors, Peter Robinson, who led the executive to seven years, and to
3:20:59 > 3:21:04Arlene Foster and to Martin McGuinness during that period of
3:21:04 > 3:21:11time as well. I served in the executive, both under Doctor Paisley
3:21:11 > 3:21:15and Mr Robinson so I am aware of the efforts the DUP have made to reach
3:21:15 > 3:21:21out across the communities, to serve with people who for many, many years
3:21:21 > 3:21:24attacked our communities, and indeed attacked us personally, in terms of
3:21:24 > 3:21:31trying to assassinate members of our party and myself and others. So this
3:21:31 > 3:21:37was no easy task. I think generosity of spirit is something which we have
3:21:37 > 3:21:44exhibited in many, over many, many years, many, many years. The fact of
3:21:44 > 3:21:49the matter is that we are still, despite all of what the right
3:21:49 > 3:21:54honourable gentleman from East Antrim alluded to above the toxicity
3:21:54 > 3:21:58of the atmosphere Sinn Fein created, we are still prepared to go into
3:21:58 > 3:22:01government and work devolved government. That shows a pretty
3:22:01 > 3:22:05generous spirit. The fact of the matter is that there are no red
3:22:05 > 3:22:07lines for us because we believe in going about the people's business
3:22:07 > 3:22:12and getting government up and running, and that is what matters.
3:22:12 > 3:22:16And just as an aside, could I say, though it's more than an aside, she
3:22:16 > 3:22:24referred to an anniversary tomorrow, but we have already rightly referred
3:22:24 > 3:22:28to the anniversary today of the Warrington bombing, the anniversary
3:22:28 > 3:22:34yesterday of the savage murder of two army corporal 's, which
3:22:34 > 3:22:38everybody who was alive at the time will remember seeing the footage of
3:22:38 > 3:22:45two young British soldiers who stumbled into a funeral and were
3:22:45 > 3:22:46almost literally torn to death.
3:22:51 > 3:22:56And we should remember that in the eulogies to Martin McGuinness, a
3:22:56 > 3:23:04movement that he led, carried out those atrocities.My right
3:23:04 > 3:23:09honourable friend refers to one of the darkest days to the British Army
3:23:09 > 3:23:12during the troubles but will he join me in contrasting that day to the
3:23:12 > 3:23:20scenes we saw in Lisbon last week when my battalion was welcomed back
3:23:20 > 3:23:29with such great enthusiasm.I'm sure even 30 years ago the good people of
3:23:29 > 3:23:33Lisbon would have given the same welcome to the soldiers he refers
3:23:33 > 3:23:38to. The fact of the matter is that in praise of the peace process and
3:23:38 > 3:23:45the political process in Northern Ireland, the far too little respect,
3:23:45 > 3:23:48far too little praise is given to the members of the Army, the
3:23:48 > 3:23:56services, the police and so on who over many, many decades held the
3:23:56 > 3:24:01ring, protected innocent life both Catholic and Protestant, unionist
3:24:01 > 3:24:06and nationalist, were courageous in their efforts. Only for them we
3:24:06 > 3:24:12wouldn't enjoy the peace we enjoy today. So why rightly there are
3:24:12 > 3:24:15individuals in the political sphere and others who are praised and given
3:24:15 > 3:24:22plaudits and the rest of it, the real heroes are the people of our
3:24:22 > 3:24:26emergency services, our security forces who put on their uniforms,
3:24:26 > 3:24:30and went out and defended people at great cost to themselves. Some
3:24:30 > 3:24:37people asked to bearing the cost in mental and physical trauma ever
3:24:37 > 3:24:47since.It might be appropriate to say Gillian Johnson was murdered by
3:24:47 > 3:24:55the IRA as well and with the family we should remember those, there are
3:24:55 > 3:24:58many forgotten victims.The honourable gentleman is absolutely
3:24:58 > 3:25:05right to draw attention to that particularly brutal slaying as well.
3:25:05 > 3:25:09It's right to remember all of the victims of the troubles in Northern
3:25:09 > 3:25:14Ireland and it's all too easy to gloss over these. We remember them
3:25:14 > 3:25:22not because we want to indulge in talking about the past but because
3:25:22 > 3:25:26it's important to remember the victims and that their sacrifice is
3:25:26 > 3:25:30never forgotten and that we redouble our efforts to try to keep moving
3:25:30 > 3:25:36Northern Ireland forward. That is why we want devolution restored, why
3:25:36 > 3:25:41we want to get the institutions back up and running. I sometimes say to
3:25:41 > 3:25:45those who say let's just get it done, let's call a meeting of the
3:25:45 > 3:25:50Assembly on Monday. Let's call a meeting of the Assembly on Monday.
3:25:50 > 3:25:56Let's go through the process for forming the executive. Let's see who
3:25:56 > 3:25:59stepped forward to form the executive, let's see who refuses to
3:25:59 > 3:26:06step forward, and then all of those who say why can't you all just get
3:26:06 > 3:26:10together, who lump all of the politicians into one group and say
3:26:10 > 3:26:15you are all to blame, then you can all see for yourselves who it is
3:26:15 > 3:26:22that refuses to form the Government. So with this high close, Mr Deputy
3:26:22 > 3:26:27Speaker, let's get this process passed today. Let's get the
3:26:27 > 3:26:30legislation passed tomorrow, let's start getting decisions made, let's
3:26:30 > 3:26:37keep on with the efforts to get devolution and perhaps the Secretary
3:26:37 > 3:26:40of State, encouraged by her efforts in getting this legislation through,
3:26:40 > 3:26:45will come forward with a proposal to get the executive and call the
3:26:45 > 3:26:49Assembly together and invite those who wish to to form a coalition of
3:26:49 > 3:26:54the willing and those who refuse to answer why they are not prepared to
3:26:54 > 3:27:00take on the responsibility of the Government of Northern Ireland.It
3:27:00 > 3:27:05is a pleasure to follow the excellent speeches we have heard
3:27:05 > 3:27:09across the halcyon today, particularly the speeches by my
3:27:09 > 3:27:12right honourable colleagues for north Belfast on the Sandringham. I
3:27:12 > 3:27:16feel they have strongly put across the key issues involved in the
3:27:16 > 3:27:18current situation in Northern Ireland and I would heed their
3:27:18 > 3:27:27advice. It's not often you do sit on the same benches of no fewer than
3:27:27 > 3:27:33two former finance ministers and I'm very conscious that they in the
3:27:33 > 3:27:37House have no doubt, as did officials and I can see some from
3:27:37 > 3:27:40Northern Ireland here today, and I know they will have sat here year
3:27:40 > 3:27:47after year and heard the issues people raise and I don't want to
3:27:47 > 3:27:54breach that too much today but I cannot promise. Before I get into is
3:27:54 > 3:27:59the substance of some of the issues discussed, this is a particularly
3:27:59 > 3:28:02sad day for Northern Ireland because once again we are standing in this
3:28:02 > 3:28:06chamber discussing the business of Northern Ireland when what we want
3:28:06 > 3:28:12is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to be restored from locally elected
3:28:12 > 3:28:15Northern Ireland politicians to be sitting in the local Northern
3:28:15 > 3:28:19Ireland Assembly making decisions for people from Northern Ireland.
3:28:19 > 3:28:22That is what I hear from people all of the time, that is what I hear
3:28:22 > 3:28:26from people on the ground and I think it has been a very good strong
3:28:26 > 3:28:34point that has been raised by the honourable member for Lewis in
3:28:34 > 3:28:37relation to the interest shown by Northern Ireland because I hear, as
3:28:37 > 3:28:44we all do every day from across the benches and the House around the
3:28:44 > 3:28:47interest in Northern Ireland and the interest in the economy and what's
3:28:47 > 3:28:51good for Northern Ireland and how we don't know what's good for Northern
3:28:51 > 3:28:56Ireland, but that is an incredible and stark fact is that there has
3:28:56 > 3:29:00been no government in Northern Ireland for over 14 months at this
3:29:00 > 3:29:06point. In this great democracy we are in, which is the United Kingdom,
3:29:06 > 3:29:11there is a region, Northern Ireland are part of that UK, where there is
3:29:11 > 3:29:16a democratic deficit. We have neither ministers to be accountable
3:29:16 > 3:29:19to the people, we have senior civil servants trying to get by because
3:29:19 > 3:29:24that's all they are doing, and they are under intolerable pressure
3:29:24 > 3:29:27because this is a legal minefield. They don't know and it's not clear
3:29:27 > 3:29:32what decisions can and cannot be made but what they do know is they
3:29:32 > 3:29:38should not and cannot take decisions that ministers ought to be taking,
3:29:38 > 3:29:42yet after 14 months we still don't have ministers in place and that is
3:29:42 > 3:29:49simply not sustainable. Although I welcome the technical bill brought
3:29:49 > 3:29:52forward today and as articulated by my right honourable colleagues,
3:29:52 > 3:29:59there is a lot of confusion at times about these types of technical bill
3:29:59 > 3:30:03is, however it doesn't take away from the fact decisions need to be
3:30:03 > 3:30:06made. It is not sustainable in Northern Ireland for those decisions
3:30:06 > 3:30:14not to be made.She has outlined it very well but the bottom line is
3:30:14 > 3:30:19there is one party who was holding Northern Ireland to ransom, has held
3:30:19 > 3:30:23Northern Ireland to ransom for many years through their previous
3:30:23 > 3:30:28violence but now economically holding the company to ransom and
3:30:28 > 3:30:32that is Sinn Fein.I absolutely agree with my honourable friend and
3:30:32 > 3:30:37I will go on to talk about that a little later in more detail but I do
3:30:37 > 3:30:42want to highlight two key issues. The first is in relation to the
3:30:42 > 3:30:47process involved in this and the process as we lead up to the budget
3:30:47 > 3:30:52which will hopefully be presented in and around June time. Although we
3:30:52 > 3:30:56have two former ministers of finance, I was the last chairperson
3:30:56 > 3:31:00of the Finance committee and the Northern Ireland Assembly on
3:31:00 > 3:31:03collapse and my right honourable friend from north Belfast spoke
3:31:03 > 3:31:08about this in terms of the behaviour of the then finance minister who was
3:31:08 > 3:31:13the Sinn Fein finance minister. There were concerns by Sinn Fein in
3:31:13 > 3:31:17relation to a number of matters. It became clear Sinn Fein were
3:31:17 > 3:31:20intending to bring down the Assembly unilaterally. The only way they
3:31:20 > 3:31:25could do that was by resigning and that was the resignation of Martin
3:31:25 > 3:31:33McGuinness. We and the committee, I and the committee, made strong
3:31:33 > 3:31:36recommendations and representations to the finance minister in writing
3:31:36 > 3:31:40and on the floor of the Northern Ireland Assembly to say the decision
3:31:40 > 3:31:46about the timing of this collapse is yours. They were the only party that
3:31:46 > 3:31:50wanted the collapse. They chose the timing of the collapse and that is
3:31:50 > 3:31:54vitally important for two of the issues mentioned here today. The
3:31:54 > 3:31:58first in relation to the reports of the historical institutional abuse
3:31:58 > 3:32:06inquiry. I as a special adviser and junior minister for a period of
3:32:06 > 3:32:11time, I had responsibility for that policy area. I spoke to many victims
3:32:11 > 3:32:16on an ongoing basis of historical and institutional abuse and their
3:32:16 > 3:32:22stories are powerful stories. Incredibly sympathetic accounts and
3:32:22 > 3:32:26that's why they the executive jointly moved with Sinn Fein to put
3:32:26 > 3:32:36in place legislation and an independent body to deal with these
3:32:36 > 3:32:41matters. When the executive agreed those terms of reference, it was the
3:32:41 > 3:32:44date in which the report would come forward because unlike some of the
3:32:44 > 3:32:52public inquiry legislation, the historical institution legislation
3:32:52 > 3:32:55had a deadline, a period of time with a discretionary power to the
3:32:55 > 3:33:01extent but only for one year. So from the outset of the inquiry, Sinn
3:33:01 > 3:33:06Fein knew exactly when that report would come forward and furthermore
3:33:06 > 3:33:13the chairperson I want to put on record my thanks to the excellent
3:33:13 > 3:33:24work done in that inquiry. He brought the inquiry report in on
3:33:24 > 3:33:33time. Whenever they collapsed it was just days to go until got that
3:33:33 > 3:33:39report. And second issue which I raised directly with the finance
3:33:39 > 3:33:44minister is wide view not hold on for a further week to allow for the
3:33:44 > 3:33:47budget to be presented to this Assembly, for the budget to be
3:33:47 > 3:33:52passed on to give certainty for the people of Northern Ireland, for the
3:33:52 > 3:33:56public services of Northern Ireland. There is no reason and I make this
3:33:56 > 3:33:59clear, one week would have made no difference in terms of that
3:33:59 > 3:34:04collapse. We did not want the collapse to happen but they chose to
3:34:04 > 3:34:14collapse it Sinn Fein the timing. That timing was an already widely
3:34:14 > 3:34:18over -- overdue budget. Sinn Fein will go down as the only party in
3:34:18 > 3:34:25Northern Ireland who failed to produce their number on duty, which
3:34:25 > 3:34:29is to reduce the budget for Northern Ireland. The second important issue
3:34:29 > 3:34:34in relation to the scrutiny of the finance committee is that that
3:34:34 > 3:34:40opportunity is no longer there. It is slightly different from the
3:34:40 > 3:34:43statutory duties of the select committees of this House but there
3:34:43 > 3:34:47is a statutory duty on those committees to scrutinise, to ask for
3:34:47 > 3:34:52evidence which we did. They have called stakeholders departments, we
3:34:52 > 3:34:57took a look at the overall budget position and we would make
3:34:57 > 3:35:01recommendations, and that process simply does not exist under the
3:35:01 > 3:35:04current situation. That is not good for Northern Ireland, not good for
3:35:04 > 3:35:13the budget not to have that process. The DUP are absolutely clear, we are
3:35:13 > 3:35:17prepared to go into government right now. It is as simple as that and if
3:35:17 > 3:35:21there was a calling of the Northern Ireland Assembly tomorrow, we would
3:35:21 > 3:35:27be there. We are not asking for anything. However it is not just the
3:35:27 > 3:35:31DUP, it is the entire of Northern Ireland being held to ransom by one
3:35:31 > 3:35:42party, one party, Sinn Fein, who are being clear - we will not go in
3:35:42 > 3:35:45unless our demands are met and that is not the way to do business. I
3:35:45 > 3:35:49would ask any interested member across this House to look at the
3:35:49 > 3:35:54programme for government, which is agreed between the two parties and I
3:35:54 > 3:35:59have been very only way to make governments work, to make this type
3:35:59 > 3:36:05of power-sharing agreement work, is to focus on what we agree on and not
3:36:05 > 3:36:10to get sidelined or obsessed with the things we don't agree on. Nobody
3:36:10 > 3:36:15will ever say Sinn Fein and DUP are the same party in relation to a
3:36:15 > 3:36:24whole range of policy areas. We accept that in the power-sharing
3:36:24 > 3:36:28agreement so let's get on and focus on what we can agree on, and what we
3:36:28 > 3:36:31can agree on was contained within the last programme for government.
3:36:31 > 3:36:33That is what we should be doing, what we should be implementing.
3:36:33 > 3:36:38There are plenty of issues we know Sinn Fein did not agree with the DUP
3:36:38 > 3:36:46on. We could say we refuse to go into government unless you agree X,
3:36:46 > 3:36:52Y and Z but we don't do that because the people of Northern Ireland need
3:36:52 > 3:36:58key decisions in relation to health, education, access to drugs, in terms
3:36:58 > 3:37:02of the support of their public services. Although this is welcome
3:37:02 > 3:37:06today in relation to a budget bill, what is vital are the decisions that
3:37:06 > 3:37:12need to be made, which haven't been made for 14 months. No government
3:37:12 > 3:37:16can continue like that, no department can continue like that.
3:37:16 > 3:37:23It is not sustainable and not fair on the senior civil servants and
3:37:23 > 3:37:26those trying to exercise and walk this incredibly different line
3:37:26 > 3:37:29between what is legal and what's not with the fear they may end up in
3:37:29 > 3:37:37court at any time in terms of those decisions they are to make.
3:37:37 > 3:37:40I want to very briefly, despite the advice of my colleagues not to get
3:37:40 > 3:37:45into some of the issues, but I do want to raise a number of points of
3:37:45 > 3:37:48concern that have been articulated to me.
3:37:48 > 3:37:51First of all, as mentioned by some others across the House already, we
3:37:51 > 3:38:02will have the victims, severely disabled victims of the Troubles
3:38:02 > 3:38:06with us in the next two days and I have said that with the members and
3:38:06 > 3:38:09I am glad they have shown an interest. It is clear there are
3:38:09 > 3:38:17great needs out there, particularly that they need somebody to listen to
3:38:17 > 3:38:21them, they need somebody to say, can you take up my course customer and
3:38:21 > 3:38:24they need action, most importantly. These are the people who are
3:38:24 > 3:38:35suffering most. Others want to focus on divisive issues. Bit is the
3:38:35 > 3:38:39devices -- on divisive issue on the ground. If they say it is your fault
3:38:39 > 3:38:42because he won't rule over and agree that, that simply cannot be the
3:38:42 > 3:38:46case. We need to listen to people and build consensus. It is a
3:38:46 > 3:38:52divisive issue. Plenty of divisive issues in Northern Ireland, we know
3:38:52 > 3:38:55that, divisive issues all over. We can take the time to talk about it
3:38:55 > 3:38:59but in the meantime, our politicians must get on and should get on with
3:38:59 > 3:39:05doing what they need to do, which is delivering aid to these people who
3:39:05 > 3:39:10have needs, the likes of people who went through the abuse inquiry. I
3:39:10 > 3:39:14would take listening to people throughout that process, they said
3:39:14 > 3:39:17to be very clear, we are not interested in the money, it is not
3:39:17 > 3:39:20about the compensation. This is about truth, this is about getting
3:39:20 > 3:39:24to the bottom of what happened. But I also acknowledge it is important
3:39:24 > 3:39:28that something happens at the end of that inquiry. That report has
3:39:28 > 3:39:28that something happens at the end of that inquiry. That report has, Alain
3:39:28 > 3:39:37has been -- the report has been out. And the education sector, schools
3:39:37 > 3:39:43are contacting all of is at this time worried about their budgets,
3:39:43 > 3:39:46particularly in relation to special educational needs. We are seeing a
3:39:46 > 3:39:51rise of conditions such as autism. We are seeing big challenges in
3:39:51 > 3:39:55relation to the mental health of our young people. There are issues that
3:39:55 > 3:40:00need to be addressed, but those required decisions cannot constantly
3:40:00 > 3:40:05be a roll on. I am asking the Secretary of State today, therefore,
3:40:05 > 3:40:10there is a programme at the moment out there. We have gone too long, 14
3:40:10 > 3:40:14months plus is far too long and I am asking the Secretary of State that
3:40:14 > 3:40:19because of the current situation, a situation that we don't want in
3:40:19 > 3:40:23Northern Ireland, a situation where the negotiations has not produced
3:40:23 > 3:40:27agreement, I'm appealing to the Secretary of State to step up and to
3:40:27 > 3:40:31put in place and to ask her colleagues to put in place ministers
3:40:31 > 3:40:36to make those vital decisions for the good of all of the people across
3:40:36 > 3:40:42both communities and all communities in Northern Ireland.
3:40:42 > 3:40:47A pleasure to follow my colleague from south Belfast. I just want to
3:40:47 > 3:40:53put on record the point that we are here and the title of this is
3:40:53 > 3:40:57Anticipation. There has been a lot of anticipation associated with
3:40:57 > 3:41:01this. I don't want to really regurgitate because I am one of
3:41:01 > 3:41:06those members in the previous assembly who, yes, were told we were
3:41:06 > 3:41:09here to talk about not what you want to spend the money on but on the
3:41:09 > 3:41:14budget and what had happened historically, and you just glibly
3:41:14 > 3:41:18went ahead to go through back the detail of what you had as a wish
3:41:18 > 3:41:23list for your own constituency. But I welcome the ability presented
3:41:23 > 3:41:27before the House today. In doing so, I want to really go back over some
3:41:27 > 3:41:32of the crowd that has already been put forward. We had a difficulty
3:41:32 > 3:41:39last year where we did not have a budget set. As a consequence, that
3:41:39 > 3:41:43left those permanent secretaries and apartments in a very difficult
3:41:43 > 3:41:50position, making spend where they were allowed to make a spend up
3:41:50 > 3:41:54until about 75% of their budget at a certain point. Ultimately we were
3:41:54 > 3:42:00being told they could only spend up to 95% of their total budget,
3:42:00 > 3:42:04leaving Northern Ireland with a black hole, in the region of 600
3:42:04 > 3:42:09million accounted in one year if we had no budget set. Thankfully we
3:42:09 > 3:42:14were able to get a budget put through this house in November of
3:42:14 > 3:42:192017, to allow the total amount allocated to be spent. I appreciate
3:42:19 > 3:42:24that that does create its own difficulties, in that department 's
3:42:24 > 3:42:28cut their cloth accordingly, knowing where they can and cannot make their
3:42:28 > 3:42:33spend. But unfortunately, decision-making is the main area
3:42:33 > 3:42:39where we have had a deficit. The difficulty we have had in the year
3:42:39 > 3:42:45past are there were many projects put on the back burner. Some civil
3:42:45 > 3:42:48servants used the excuse of no political direction as a reason to
3:42:48 > 3:42:55do nothing. I can say that as far as my area is concerned, we have roads
3:42:55 > 3:43:00that need repair. Unfortunately, whenever it comes to monitoring
3:43:00 > 3:43:03rounds we didn't have the opportunity to have the flexibility
3:43:03 > 3:43:07to actually move money where it was needed. That is a big, big problem
3:43:07 > 3:43:12that has occurred. It is not just in Northern Ireland, that is an issue
3:43:12 > 3:43:16that has happened throughout the United Kingdom. But without having
3:43:16 > 3:43:21direction, we have problems within our education sector, problems
3:43:21 > 3:43:28within our health sector. Two of our biggest areas of spend. I had
3:43:28 > 3:43:33occasion in the last month to meet with a delegation of principles from
3:43:33 > 3:43:41schools right across my constituency, representing every
3:43:41 > 3:43:43sector of education, Irish medium included. I can only say there is a
3:43:43 > 3:43:47total on fairness in the way the education funding, and this is
3:43:47 > 3:43:51something which is coming forward, and unfortunately the department are
3:43:51 > 3:43:54saying they cannot make an adjustment because they need
3:43:54 > 3:43:57ministerial direction. We have schools, primary schools that
3:43:57 > 3:44:02receive £2242 per pupil. You have another sector of education that
3:44:02 > 3:44:11will receive five times that per pupil. Where is the equality in
3:44:11 > 3:44:14relation to that matter? Where one pupil is valued at five times the
3:44:14 > 3:44:18level that another pupil is in the ordinary controlled sector of
3:44:18 > 3:44:22education. I think that is something that really needs to be looked at.
3:44:22 > 3:44:26The message that came through from that meeting is principles don't
3:44:26 > 3:44:29necessarily want more money, they want it spread more fairly and
3:44:29 > 3:44:35evenly throughout the education sector, and therefore you will have
3:44:35 > 3:44:38the same outcomes with whatever sector of education you are dealing
3:44:38 > 3:44:41with. That was the message that came out very loud and clear and it is
3:44:41 > 3:44:44something I want to see being driven forward.
3:44:44 > 3:44:48I appreciate we have had all sorts of options being brought forward in
3:44:48 > 3:44:53how we deal with the way forward. All I can say is we are rolling down
3:44:53 > 3:44:56a track and there is a buffer. I appreciate that decisions up to be
3:44:56 > 3:45:03made in June of this year, when we said a budget, but to allow that
3:45:03 > 3:45:07budget to be spent, and I cannot see as having an assembly up by that
3:45:07 > 3:45:11time, we cannot, we will not have
3:45:11 > 3:45:15ministers in position in Northern Ireland to give direction. As a
3:45:15 > 3:45:19consequence, and let's be honest, not all of us have the same faith
3:45:19 > 3:45:23they would deliver it, so as a consequence we need to ensure we
3:45:23 > 3:45:30have direct input from Westminster in relation to ensuring there is
3:45:30 > 3:45:34spend and the spend is made correctly.
3:45:34 > 3:45:41As has been said by our leader in Westminster, the member for North
3:45:41 > 3:45:44Belfast, great play was made in relation to the confidence and
3:45:44 > 3:45:49supply money. One of the messages that we have been very, very sure in
3:45:49 > 3:45:55putting forward with this is not our money, this is money for the whole
3:45:55 > 3:45:59of Northern Ireland and it is to deliver for the whole of Northern
3:45:59 > 3:46:03Ireland in areas where it is going to have the most benefit. I want to
3:46:03 > 3:46:06say that that is something vitally important. It was interesting to
3:46:06 > 3:46:10hear the chair of the Northern Ireland select committee made
3:46:10 > 3:46:15reference to actually the public accounts department, the controller
3:46:15 > 3:46:18and auditor general and public accounts department within Northern
3:46:18 > 3:46:22Ireland and some of the scrutiny rules that might be required. He
3:46:22 > 3:46:26made a suggestion of having, and this is something, he made a
3:46:26 > 3:46:30suggestion that we might well have a scrutiny committee set up which
3:46:30 > 3:46:33would be made up of MLAs from the Northern Ireland assembly. Can I
3:46:33 > 3:46:39say, that is not, your predecessor already made a suggestion at one
3:46:39 > 3:46:44stage this might be a way forward to give the assembly some form of
3:46:44 > 3:46:47business that it would be involved in the scrutiny role of both
3:46:47 > 3:46:55departments and also associated with the PAC. But I think that borrowers
3:46:55 > 3:46:58Northern Ireland is concerned, there are those who actually said that
3:46:58 > 3:47:04they welcome the budget coming forward, but the rot goes Dutch but
3:47:04 > 3:47:07there are those, mention has been made of the previous Minister Foster
3:47:07 > 3:47:16Martin O'Neill has been an local media stating how sad it is to see
3:47:16 > 3:47:19austerity being driven forward in Northern Ireland. Can I say when I
3:47:19 > 3:47:23look at this budget there is an increase carried forward through
3:47:23 > 3:47:27this budget to Northern Ireland, so as a consequence we are getting our
3:47:27 > 3:47:32enquiries. The money is additional we have received for our confidence
3:47:32 > 3:47:36and supply are over and above anything else that is fair and we
3:47:36 > 3:47:40will ensure that that does have some direct benefits to Northern Ireland.
3:47:40 > 3:47:45Also a point but I think we need to be very careful about is that we do
3:47:45 > 3:47:50not stand back and say we don't want to see the Northern Ireland assembly
3:47:50 > 3:47:56back. I for one having been a former member of the Northern Ireland
3:47:56 > 3:47:59assembly, see the benefits of devolution. I believe it is the
3:47:59 > 3:48:04right way forward for Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, we have a
3:48:04 > 3:48:08Damocles held to the back of our necks here and has been held by one
3:48:08 > 3:48:11party, and that party is Sinn Fein. I really believe that we have got to
3:48:11 > 3:48:16actually stand up to them and drive forward and have even an assembly as
3:48:16 > 3:48:24has been mentioned by the member from Lewes, an assembly of the
3:48:24 > 3:48:29willing. Let's be honest, there are those who are willing to go in and
3:48:29 > 3:48:33run Northern Ireland. We are willing and wanting to go into an assembly
3:48:33 > 3:48:37tomorrow. Unfortunately, there are those who have set the red lines. We
3:48:37 > 3:48:40hear red lines being mentioned all the time now but they have set their
3:48:40 > 3:48:45red lines, for issues which they believe they could not drag through
3:48:45 > 3:48:48the Northern Ireland assembly so they used the talks process to drive
3:48:48 > 3:48:54forward their own agenda with their own issues. I believe that Irish
3:48:54 > 3:48:58language is totally toxic to my community and as a consequence, they
3:48:58 > 3:49:01knew it would be totally toxic. I for one believe those are issues
3:49:01 > 3:49:05that were just being put on the table to actually drive us further
3:49:05 > 3:49:11down the road with the Irish Republic proposing to have elections
3:49:11 > 3:49:14in the Irish Republic, I believe Sinn Fein were of a view to ensuring
3:49:14 > 3:49:19that they did not let the Northern Ireland assembly get up and running.
3:49:19 > 3:49:22They were keeping their eye on what was happening in the Republic of
3:49:22 > 3:49:26Ireland. I will. I thank the honourable member for
3:49:26 > 3:49:31giving way. On that point to about the Irish language. The DUP made
3:49:31 > 3:49:35Frittelli we do not object to people speaking the Irish language, having
3:49:35 > 3:49:40their children educated in the Irish language and, indeed, the Government
3:49:40 > 3:49:44in Northern Ireland has contributed millions of pounds towards the Irish
3:49:44 > 3:49:49language and its promotion in education. The fact is when a Sinn
3:49:49 > 3:49:52Fein spokesperson says that every word spoken in Irish is another
3:49:52 > 3:49:59bullet fired in the cause of Irish unity, they politicise a language
3:49:59 > 3:50:03that means it becomes a very divisive issue in Northern Ireland.
3:50:03 > 3:50:08I thank the honourable member for bringing that forward this
3:50:08 > 3:50:16afternoon, but I can't say I agree with him 100%. I don't necessarily
3:50:16 > 3:50:18hold to speaking Irish but I wouldn't be against those who want
3:50:18 > 3:50:22to learn it and speak it, but I believe there should be a fairness
3:50:22 > 3:50:26and equality in relation to how these cultural issues are funded,
3:50:26 > 3:50:30and I think that is something else that needs to be locked up. That is
3:50:30 > 3:50:33something that I think meets political direction for the
3:50:33 > 3:50:36following year's budget. I appreciate we are dealing with areas
3:50:36 > 3:50:42where there were major, whenever we look at what has been put forward in
3:50:42 > 3:50:45the bill, there are areas and departments that did not make their
3:50:45 > 3:50:47full spend. There were other departments that if you are coming
3:50:47 > 3:50:53forward to the assembly, you'd be having their accounts being
3:50:53 > 3:50:57qualified in relation to overspend and we would have to make a comment
3:50:57 > 3:51:02in the account associated with overspend some departments have
3:51:02 > 3:51:07made. I can see there are those who probably should have learned a
3:51:07 > 3:51:11lesson and a little bit more prudent accounting.
3:51:11 > 3:51:15I appreciate negotiations have gone on in bringing forward the statement
3:51:15 > 3:51:17which came forward, the Budget Statement which came forward last
3:51:17 > 3:51:22week. I note departments will have had some input in relation to what
3:51:22 > 3:51:29that entailed. I want to say that we want to seek political direction in
3:51:29 > 3:51:32ensuring that the spend is made to benefit the whole of Northern
3:51:32 > 3:51:42Ireland for the forthcoming 2018-19 year and I, for one, Assad we are
3:51:42 > 3:51:45here to discuss this. It will be worse when we're having to discuss
3:51:45 > 3:51:52the budget in June. -- are sad we're here to discuss this. Of us will
3:51:52 > 3:51:55have a pet pet project we want to include in that debate and we might
3:51:55 > 3:51:59drag it out but I can say the debate today, I hope the messages going
3:51:59 > 3:52:03forward is loud and clear that we are here because one party failed to
3:52:03 > 3:52:11deliver a budget in 2018-19 and 20,000 17-18 and all the blame
3:52:11 > 3:52:15should be laid at the House of Sinn Fein over what they have caused
3:52:15 > 3:52:19Northern Ireland to suffer in the last year. Thank you.
3:52:22 > 3:52:27Always a pleasure to speak at any stage in any debate in this house. I
3:52:27 > 3:52:36do look forward to the opportunity to be very rear gunner, to use
3:52:36 > 3:52:39terminology very apt in the Armed Forces and services. This debate is
3:52:39 > 3:52:44not one we wanted to bring to this house, but it is one we have here
3:52:44 > 3:52:48and we must do it. I congratulate and thank the Secretary of State and
3:52:48 > 3:52:53the Minister of State for their contributions to make this happen.
3:52:58 > 3:53:03I am not here either to plead for direct rule because I am as
3:53:03 > 3:53:07committed to devolution as this party, and as part of the old
3:53:07 > 3:53:16Assembly from 1988. The work in the Assembly was always hard, to try to
3:53:16 > 3:53:18plough forward against cost and opposition, and sometimes in this
3:53:18 > 3:53:24place as well, and yet it was workable over that period of time
3:53:24 > 3:53:34because people knew they were elected to do a job. There are MLAs
3:53:34 > 3:53:38who have more than capable of doing their job but stopped by a red line
3:53:38 > 3:53:42which may as well be the Red Sea. The problem is we haven't got Moses
3:53:42 > 3:53:48to step forward. Nonetheless the people who are being caught in this
3:53:48 > 3:53:54are everyday people from all sides of community, rich and poor,
3:53:54 > 3:53:59catholic and Protestant, Jew and Muslim, healthy and sick, old and
3:53:59 > 3:54:02young, or are paying the price for the red line erected by Sinn Fein
3:54:02 > 3:54:10which says nothing is more or greater than the Irish language act.
3:54:10 > 3:54:18No child that needs a classroom assistant, no rope that needs
3:54:18 > 3:54:24prepared supersedes the importance of an Irish language act. It is for
3:54:24 > 3:54:29this reason I have set the budget, made the ministerial decisions, get
3:54:29 > 3:54:33the process in place and do what we are capable of doing ourselves and
3:54:33 > 3:54:38prevented from doing back home in the Assembly. Too many constituents
3:54:38 > 3:54:43are need for this to be prolonged any more. At the end of the day we
3:54:43 > 3:54:48are doing this for all of the people of the province. Members said last
3:54:48 > 3:54:53week, I suppose that money will go to unionist areas, it will go to all
3:54:53 > 3:54:57parts of the province. It is very clear where it will be allocated and
3:54:57 > 3:55:05for the record we put that in place. Would be honourable member agree
3:55:05 > 3:55:08with me there is a substantial contrast win the narrow focus Sinn
3:55:08 > 3:55:12Fein talks to bring the Assembly down and the much wider and
3:55:12 > 3:55:17comprehensive focus we took in terms of the confidence and supply motion
3:55:17 > 3:55:24which benefits everybody without exception in Northern Ireland?That
3:55:24 > 3:55:29is absolutely correct, and we were committed to bringing advantages for
3:55:29 > 3:55:32everyone across the whole of the province and did so so all of the
3:55:32 > 3:55:39people of this province, this money has been committed to them. The
3:55:39 > 3:55:47losers are people from all corners of the province. Northern Ireland is
3:55:47 > 3:55:52a disadvantage today because of Sinn Fein's negativity so the people to
3:55:52 > 3:55:57blame for this are quite rightly them. I have parents tearing their
3:55:57 > 3:56:13hair out, that their child could not have help from teaching assistants.
3:56:13 > 3:56:17The need for a classroom assistant, the need for education assessments
3:56:17 > 3:56:25are very clear. Schools such as those who provide specialists and
3:56:25 > 3:56:35help children
3:56:36 > 3:56:47thrive. This should not happen, the school has raised money and they
3:56:47 > 3:56:51don't know what is happening. This I believe is unacceptable and yet our
3:56:51 > 3:56:57schools are forced to accept this, with the caveat blame the
3:56:57 > 3:57:05politicians on the Hill, it is Sinn Fein to blame. The blame lies with
3:57:05 > 3:57:14Sinn Fein. Special schools is a big issue on the news yesterday. I had a
3:57:14 > 3:57:25number of phone calls, as the members will have had as well, and
3:57:25 > 3:57:30parents in my constituency phoned to say they are concerned about where
3:57:30 > 3:57:39their child will lend up and what will happen. Those who do great work
3:57:39 > 3:57:43with disadvantaged young adults as well, and we have problems which are
3:57:43 > 3:57:49very apparent and need addressed right now. Money is flowing in for
3:57:49 > 3:57:55the Irish language schools and other budgets, this is before an Irish
3:57:55 > 3:58:00language act comes into being. I have constituents saying where is
3:58:00 > 3:58:07the quality for my school, when Irish language schools are as happy
3:58:07 > 3:58:12as Larry because they get all the money they want. Where is equality?
3:58:12 > 3:58:17We hear Sinn Fein talk about equality, let's have equality for my
3:58:17 > 3:58:23constituents and constituents across the rest of the province. Where is
3:58:23 > 3:58:37the fairness? How can I explain this to a child who does not speak Irish?
3:58:37 > 3:58:43One college were waiting for a new build, the decision over that stance
3:58:43 > 3:58:48clear as well so these are problems we have got to deal with and every
3:58:48 > 3:58:53school in my constituency and everybody's constituency across the
3:58:53 > 3:58:56whole of the province deals with these issues, people complaining
3:58:56 > 3:59:04they cannot access their GPs, and then GPs complaining they cannot get
3:59:04 > 3:59:13work done urgently. We need to relieve the burden on GP surgeries.
3:59:13 > 3:59:18These are things we are dealing with everyday. Hopefully this budget and
3:59:18 > 3:59:21the allocation of money and ministerial decisions that will come
3:59:21 > 3:59:27will eventually make sure these systems are sorted. Again we have
3:59:27 > 3:59:35A&Es bursting at the seams, and then in holes above the normal. I
3:59:35 > 3:59:42remember my partner telling me the story about hospitals, with two
3:59:42 > 3:59:50people to bed in every ward. Something needs to be done.
3:59:50 > 3:59:57Regarding funding which would improve life for people with
3:59:57 > 4:00:01diabetes, monies need to be released for the nurses who specialise in
4:00:01 > 4:00:05this field and they need to be budgeted for. Type one diabetics in
4:00:05 > 4:00:12my area those with the largest number of type one diabetics
4:00:12 > 4:00:17percentage-wise in Northern Ireland in the whole of the UK, these are
4:00:17 > 4:00:22key issues in our constituency, in my constituency and constituencies
4:00:22 > 4:00:26across the whole of the province. We need to bridge the pay gap for
4:00:26 > 4:00:30nurses and this will not be done without ministerial approval. We
4:00:30 > 4:00:36need care packages to allow Alderley people to retain independence for as
4:00:36 > 4:00:40long as possible. This cannot be signed off without ministerial
4:00:40 > 4:00:45direction. We need to ensure people on restricted diets can access food
4:00:45 > 4:00:50without having to make the case. We also have the sugar levy tax which
4:00:50 > 4:00:57until that monies will come to Northern Ireland, we need someone in
4:00:57 > 4:01:07place to make those decisions.
4:01:08 > 4:01:13The scheme can do well addressing the issue of obesity, and I know my
4:01:13 > 4:01:16honourable friend and members are well aware of that but we want to
4:01:16 > 4:01:20six a scheme like this across the whole of Northern Ireland. It is
4:01:20 > 4:01:25something we should be doing. We also need to... And the funding we
4:01:25 > 4:01:32secured, that 1.4 billion. We need to have the allocated on put in
4:01:32 > 4:01:36place as well. We need the Bella Hitch bypass that benefit so many
4:01:36 > 4:01:48people in my constituency and in Southdown. The MP refuses to come
4:01:48 > 4:01:53here. We are making the point, we are here to speak role of those
4:01:53 > 4:01:58people, I speak from my constituents and maybe some of his constituents.
4:01:58 > 4:02:01I'm very grateful to my honourable friend for giving way, and the
4:02:01 > 4:02:05things I've asked to intervene because I want to put forward an
4:02:05 > 4:02:12alternative proposal in the road widening scheme, that is not the
4:02:12 > 4:02:16case. But my honourable friend has mentioned on a number of occasions
4:02:16 > 4:02:20that something and many things cannot progress because there's a
4:02:20 > 4:02:25lack ministerial appointments. Does the honourable friend agree it would
4:02:25 > 4:02:30be useful for the Minister to indicate whether he is considered
4:02:30 > 4:02:35paragraph four of article four of the departments of Northern Ireland
4:02:35 > 4:02:39order 1999 which indicates a senior official can take the decisions for
4:02:39 > 4:02:43those which fault of their departments in the absence of a
4:02:43 > 4:02:47minister.I banged my honourable friend for his intervention and for
4:02:47 > 4:02:52his solution, and direction to the Minister and the ministers will
4:02:52 > 4:02:57fiercely correspond with their civil servants to find out how it works.
4:02:57 > 4:03:02On more than one occasion we have seen it in action, so if it can
4:03:02 > 4:03:04happen in one department it can happen in all departments so let's
4:03:04 > 4:03:10get that in place. The permanent secretary needs ministerial
4:03:10 > 4:03:16direction. Will someone sign off on a bypass please because I would love
4:03:16 > 4:03:26to see that happening. Too many potholes in roads are damaging cars,
4:03:26 > 4:03:32bringing people to my office who have never seen an elected
4:03:32 > 4:03:36representative before but do so over this matter. I mention one because
4:03:36 > 4:03:42miraculously after a lot of correspondence there was pothole
4:03:42 > 4:03:45which I referred to the Department on a number of occasions and the
4:03:45 > 4:03:49last time I referred dimension to the gentleman that if we don't fix
4:03:49 > 4:03:53that potholes soon, we will be shaking hands with an Australian
4:03:53 > 4:03:57because it was so deep. Cars were getting damaged everyday. Now it is
4:03:57 > 4:04:03fixed and thank the Lord for that. We want to remain competitive
4:04:03 > 4:04:08globally through the Brexit uncertainty. We decision-makers to
4:04:08 > 4:04:13bring us in line with mainland practices. Someone needs to make
4:04:13 > 4:04:21this decision. We have a budget in front of us referring to the
4:04:21 > 4:04:24agriculture sector which is very important and when it comes to
4:04:24 > 4:04:30capital build, I asked the question, where is the monies for the build
4:04:30 > 4:04:37scheme? The scheme you have in England, Scotland and Wales but we
4:04:37 > 4:04:42don't have it in Northern Ireland so we would like to see that in place
4:04:42 > 4:04:47as well. Organisations are doing a tremendous job but cannot operate
4:04:47 > 4:04:57under uncertainty. Again, we look to the budget and to perhaps the
4:04:57 > 4:04:59permanent secretary with the blessing of the Minister of State
4:04:59 > 4:05:04and the Secretary of State doing that. For all of these reasons, Mr
4:05:04 > 4:05:08Deputy Speaker, I'm bringing to you what I should have brought to the
4:05:08 > 4:05:11ministers and safe while setting the budget allocates the powers as well,
4:05:11 > 4:05:15as my right honourable friend for east Belfast referred to and
4:05:15 > 4:05:18referred to very well. To those capable of making decisions and will
4:05:18 > 4:05:22make the decision to stop this floundering about which has left our
4:05:22 > 4:05:27constituents frustrated, unrepresented on second-class
4:05:27 > 4:05:30citizens. I would ask consideration is given to the issues raised today
4:05:30 > 4:05:35when signing the budget of more than this, that the system is enacted to
4:05:35 > 4:05:40run again as a country instead of being in limbo and no man's land,
4:05:40 > 4:05:46the austerity programme. They have tried to break the Assembly, they
4:05:46 > 4:05:49have tried to destroy Northern Ireland, and no matter what language
4:05:49 > 4:05:55you say that in, it is wrong. Let's hope this is the first stage in
4:05:55 > 4:05:59stopping just that. I conclude with this last comment. Northern Ireland
4:05:59 > 4:06:04has weathered the last year but that heavy price has been paid by
4:06:04 > 4:06:09voluntary sector workers, by community groups, by our NHS, our
4:06:09 > 4:06:13education boards and schools. They are done paying for someone else's
4:06:13 > 4:06:17refusal and I look to the Secretary of State and the Minister of State
4:06:17 > 4:06:21and this Government to take the power, make the decisions, get the
4:06:21 > 4:06:28country back on its feet and put Sinn Fein back in the corner they
4:06:28 > 4:06:35already skulk in.Thank you for calling me in this debate,
4:06:35 > 4:06:38understand the Minister of State will be replying to many of the
4:06:38 > 4:06:41points made throughout this debate and I want to add to his list of
4:06:41 > 4:06:48replies that I think are absolutely vital for going forward. I know the
4:06:48 > 4:06:51Minister of State since he's been appointed in looking at the budget
4:06:51 > 4:06:56and how we have got to this point, he's also created an expectation
4:06:56 > 4:06:59because he's been very diligent, he's been going around Northern
4:06:59 > 4:07:04Ireland and visiting the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and
4:07:04 > 4:07:08with many other groups and along with the Secretary of State making a
4:07:08 > 4:07:13case of listening to needs, and I suppose creating an expectation
4:07:13 > 4:07:17those needs will rightly be addressed. Of course to echo
4:07:17 > 4:07:22everything that has been said by every other member in this House, we
4:07:22 > 4:07:26would rather those expectations were being addressed by a functioning
4:07:26 > 4:07:31Northern Ireland executive and Assembly. However, we have to smell
4:07:31 > 4:07:34the coffee at some point and recognise that is not the case at
4:07:34 > 4:07:37the present time and will probably not be the case for the remainder
4:07:37 > 4:07:45part of this year realistically speaking. If that is the case, I
4:07:45 > 4:07:49think that given between now and June the Minister is going to have
4:07:49 > 4:07:54to look at the next budget and how we deal with the incoming
4:07:54 > 4:07:57expenditure and setting targets, I think it is important he does cast
4:07:57 > 4:08:03his mind onto certain matters.
4:08:03 > 4:08:07I want to focus on one part of the portfolio which I have
4:08:07 > 4:08:11responsibility for, the issue of sport. We have a very successful
4:08:11 > 4:08:14sport tourism portfolio. In a moment...
4:08:14 > 4:08:21Indeed, in the coming year we are about to have the northern Ireland
4:08:21 > 4:08:25golf tourism really take off. And, of course, that has been started in
4:08:25 > 4:08:30the last week by the success of Rory McIlroy setting a particular
4:08:30 > 4:08:36standard of achievement. Of course, I will give away.I thank the
4:08:36 > 4:08:40honourable member for giving way. When he speaks of smelling the
4:08:40 > 4:08:43coffee and the importance to our economy of driving things forward,
4:08:43 > 4:08:49will be aware that one of the success stories, one of many in
4:08:49 > 4:08:52Northern Ireland's success stories in the past 14 months is the pure
4:08:52 > 4:08:56roast coffee company in my constituency, which has now struck a
4:08:56 > 4:09:01deal to supply coffee across China. So there is good news and we should
4:09:01 > 4:09:11welcome it. The vast amount of tea drunk in the
4:09:11 > 4:09:15population it is good we are now exporting Coffey! And indeed to the
4:09:15 > 4:09:19largest market in the world. But turning very specifically to the
4:09:19 > 4:09:24issue of golf tourism, we will have an influx of golf tourists coming to
4:09:24 > 4:09:32Northern Ireland for the Irish open and indeed the Open in 2019. The
4:09:32 > 4:09:35organisation but more importantly golf clubs in Northern Ireland and
4:09:35 > 4:09:46Royal Portrush in particular will need certainty about the finance for
4:09:46 > 4:09:49those organisations and tournaments. I am asking the Minister of State to
4:09:49 > 4:09:54make sure that immediately and that there is no delay on this, and that
4:09:54 > 4:09:58immediately those organisations get certainty and clarity about finance
4:09:58 > 4:10:02expenditure for golf tourism, in particular. This is going to be the
4:10:02 > 4:10:07single largest shop window for Northern Ireland going forward. A
4:10:07 > 4:10:12very positive shop window and it needs to therefore been properly
4:10:12 > 4:10:14underwritten by the terms of expenditure.
4:10:14 > 4:10:18I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Would my honourable
4:10:18 > 4:10:22friend agree with me that we have an excellent number of ambassadors for
4:10:22 > 4:10:27golf in Northern Ireland? Including extending congratulations to our
4:10:27 > 4:10:35very own Rory McIlroy, and that this is the perfect time with Rory
4:10:35 > 4:10:38McIlroy back on form and winning across the world to maximise in
4:10:38 > 4:10:42terms of tourism and golf in Northern Ireland, yes, it would
4:10:42 > 4:10:49always be we mentioned Rory, Darren and Graeme but now there are so
4:10:49 > 4:10:53many, I can't get into naming them all the time because you might at
4:10:53 > 4:10:56offend one of them for leaving them out!
4:10:56 > 4:10:59The member for South Belfast is absolutely right, we do have a great
4:10:59 > 4:11:04golf ambassador in Rory and many others. Of course I will give way
4:11:04 > 4:11:08stop here I am very grateful indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker.
4:11:08 > 4:11:11I'm sure the honourable member is coming to the line in his comments
4:11:11 > 4:11:23that makes it quite careerthat Rory McIlroy trained in the Holyrood golf
4:11:23 > 4:11:27club and to put it on the map and I'm sure there will be tourism to go
4:11:27 > 4:11:34and see where he trained to be so successful.That's not where I want
4:11:34 > 4:11:40to be, come on Mr Paisley. I will put the sandwich away and
4:11:40 > 4:11:45come to another discipline, Mr Deputy Speaker, if you don't mind.
4:11:45 > 4:11:50The last executive, in a wisdom, before they were put out of their
4:11:50 > 4:12:02position, very kindly pointed me chairman for motorsport. There are
4:12:02 > 4:12:07motorsport events for January occur in Northern Ireland and before June,
4:12:07 > 4:12:11very significantly the North West 200 will require financial certainty
4:12:11 > 4:12:16from the Minister of State. I would like to make sure he is able to give
4:12:16 > 4:12:21that financial certainty and ensures he talks to the relevant departments
4:12:21 > 4:12:24and indicates that proper finance will be put in place for the largest
4:12:24 > 4:12:30outdoor sporting event that occurs not only in Northern Ireland, but in
4:12:30 > 4:12:35the entire island of Ireland. It attracts over 100,000 people
4:12:35 > 4:12:45annually to the triangle and a significant for sport in Northern
4:12:45 > 4:12:48Ireland and the community relations. Motorsport is one of those things
4:12:48 > 4:12:53that attract all people of all classes and creeds and is something
4:12:53 > 4:12:56Northern Ireland excels in and it is something that requires certainty,
4:12:56 > 4:13:03in terms of the provision of support to allow that race to go ahead. The
4:13:03 > 4:13:14Ulster Grand Prix is also significantly also requiring
4:13:14 > 4:13:17certainty before the August timetable. I would ask the Minister
4:13:17 > 4:13:22of State to look into that and to ensure that those departments are
4:13:22 > 4:13:27properly told by him, told by an Minister, that funding must be put
4:13:27 > 4:13:30in place. Looking forward to 2021, the youth
4:13:30 > 4:13:36Commonwealth Games, plans are already being put in place now for
4:13:36 > 4:13:40the Youth Commonwealth Games. It is a central certainty is given to the
4:13:40 > 4:13:44organisation so they can market Northern Ireland around the world as
4:13:44 > 4:13:48the location, as the destination for those Games. That won't happen in
4:13:48 > 4:13:52the six months before it, that has to happen years in advance and I
4:13:52 > 4:13:56would ask the Minister of State to put his mind to making sure the
4:13:56 > 4:14:00department is put on notice that he will be breathing down their necks
4:14:00 > 4:14:05to make sure there are proper resources for these proper showcase
4:14:05 > 4:14:11event for Northern Ireland is in place. Thank you.
4:14:11 > 4:14:16Thank you very, very much indeed Mr Deputy Speaker. May I say, we've had
4:14:16 > 4:14:18an extraordinarily interesting afternoon which started off with
4:14:18 > 4:14:22almost a political first, almost a Parliamentary first. A Secretary of
4:14:22 > 4:14:27State came to the dispatch box longing to give up power. Desperate
4:14:27 > 4:14:32to actually Slough off some of the responsibilities of office when the
4:14:32 > 4:14:36rest of us, obviously I excuse myself and honourable colleagues
4:14:36 > 4:14:40present, most of us are climbing the greasy pole with rapidity but no,
4:14:40 > 4:14:43the Secretary of State spurns the trappings of authority and wants to
4:14:43 > 4:14:47have no part of it. I have to say, I have an enormous amount of sympathy,
4:14:47 > 4:14:51because in all honesty, what we have heard this afternoon is almost an
4:14:51 > 4:14:55admission of failure. We've heard an admission whereby there are issues
4:14:55 > 4:15:01we are discussing here that we simply shouldn't be discussing. We
4:15:01 > 4:15:05actually do need to talk about the things that really matter to this
4:15:05 > 4:15:07house and four representatives in Northern Ireland to talk about
4:15:07 > 4:15:11things that matter there. We heard an extremely forensic
4:15:11 > 4:15:15analysis from the member for South West Wiltshire on the bill. He'd
4:15:15 > 4:15:19brought to the build the same scalpel like skill he used to bring
4:15:19 > 4:15:23to human beings, most of whom survived. I have to say that in this
4:15:23 > 4:15:27particular case, to break down the bill in the wake he did,
4:15:27 > 4:15:31particularly in his comments on the role of the audit office, and he
4:15:31 > 4:15:35said quite correctly that permanent secretaries should not be dealing
4:15:35 > 4:15:39with the closure of health facility. I think in many ways that brought us
4:15:39 > 4:15:41to the nub of what we were talking about this afternoon. The honourable
4:15:41 > 4:15:47lady for Edinburgh said she was reluctant agreement, but I think in
4:15:47 > 4:15:51a very potent phrase she said, we've got to somehow keep the light and
4:15:51 > 4:15:55heat on. We don't normally talk about heating in these debates, but
4:15:55 > 4:16:00in this particular case, keeping the lights on heat and was entirely
4:16:00 > 4:16:03appropriate. I think the contribution from the honourable
4:16:03 > 4:16:06member of Lewes has attracted much support and comment. I think she
4:16:06 > 4:16:10spoke not just from the heart and a position of authority that I think
4:16:10 > 4:16:15she spoke the essential truth in her contribution. I think the references
4:16:15 > 4:16:21she made to the bill ferocity deal were very, very potent, Mr Deputy
4:16:21 > 4:16:24Speaker, because it is matters like that that really concern the people
4:16:24 > 4:16:27of Northern Ireland rather more than what we are saying here in this
4:16:27 > 4:16:32chamber. I have to say, the honourable member
4:16:32 > 4:16:36for East Antrim showed it again what an immense loss he is to the world
4:16:36 > 4:16:40of higher education. When I think there is an entire education of
4:16:40 > 4:16:42schoolchildren in Northern Ireland who learned that his feet, and
4:16:42 > 4:16:50studied underneath him and survived... But he gave us a
4:16:50 > 4:16:54masterclass again, but he also talked about misconceptions and I
4:16:54 > 4:16:58think he is absolutely right to refer to that. And like his pupils,
4:16:58 > 4:17:03I feel honoured and a better person for having heard that.
4:17:03 > 4:17:08The honourable member for North Belfast, I have to say, widened the
4:17:08 > 4:17:12scope of the bill somewhat and brought us to Brexit among other
4:17:12 > 4:17:15things. He incorporated an extraordinary amount of detail but
4:17:15 > 4:17:19in many ways this is quite correct, because this bill does impact on so
4:17:19 > 4:17:24many other areas. He also talked about going about the peoples
4:17:24 > 4:17:29business. Mr Deputy Speaker, that is a very potent phrase. He is actually
4:17:29 > 4:17:33talking about, we should be going about the people's business in our
4:17:33 > 4:17:36constituencies, whether they be in Northern Ireland or here. Shouldn't
4:17:36 > 4:17:42be doing this and I think the right honourable member for North Belfast
4:17:42 > 4:17:47spoke not just good sense but with great, with a sense of rightness on
4:17:47 > 4:17:50inside and I think it was very, very good to hear it.
4:17:50 > 4:17:55The honourable lady from Belfast South, please I hope she will not
4:17:55 > 4:17:59think me patronising when I say in the short she has been in this House
4:17:59 > 4:18:03she has grown in stature and spoken superbly again. She said, again from
4:18:03 > 4:18:07the heart, that today was a Saturday. In that I think she
4:18:07 > 4:18:11enunciated the spirit of the House. She talked about the demographic
4:18:11 > 4:18:17deficit and I think in passing she referred to the paucity of members
4:18:17 > 4:18:22here present. Mr Deputy Speaker, that is their loss, because we have
4:18:22 > 4:18:25heard some excellent speakers today, including the honourable member for
4:18:25 > 4:18:30Belfast South, who also talked about the impact on SEM and education,
4:18:30 > 4:18:32which are issues we should be concentrating on. We should actually
4:18:32 > 4:18:36talking about them. The honourable member for South
4:18:36 > 4:18:40Antrim talked about the roads that needed repairing and problems in
4:18:40 > 4:18:46health and higher education and may I prevail upon your legendary
4:18:46 > 4:18:48generosity of spirit, Mr Deputy Speaker, to say was a great pleasure
4:18:48 > 4:18:54yesterday to meet the Honourable gentleman from South Antrim with
4:18:54 > 4:18:57Grayson Nesbitt, who worked in the Department of Finance, who came here
4:18:57 > 4:19:01to receive her well-deserved OBE, accompanied by her delightful
4:19:01 > 4:19:07daughter. Normally when the honourable gentleman the Strangford
4:19:07 > 4:19:11stands I feel we have saved the very best for last.
4:19:11 > 4:19:15I thought he was to be the last week. He introduced us to the giant
4:19:15 > 4:19:23pothole of Newton arts. Now this will, I have no doubt, be one of the
4:19:23 > 4:19:27signature destinations in Northern Ireland before long. We had the
4:19:27 > 4:19:31giant 's Causeway and the walled city and we will soon have the giant
4:19:31 > 4:19:39pothole of Newton arts. It would be difficult not to score a hole in one
4:19:39 > 4:19:43where that giant pothole is concerned, but the thought of the
4:19:43 > 4:19:50DUP opening an Australian branch accidentally is one that doesn't
4:19:50 > 4:19:54worry me over much but I understand a certain concerns being expressed
4:19:54 > 4:19:58in the Antipodes. He spoke about important things, like bursaries for
4:19:58 > 4:20:06medical students, and I think it is that combination of the local, the
4:20:06 > 4:20:10minute I, the real bread and butter issues of his local politics with
4:20:10 > 4:20:13the big issues that make him such an excellent speaker.
4:20:13 > 4:20:19The honourable gentleman for North Antrim, I have to say, suddenly led
4:20:19 > 4:20:24us into a completely new direction. The entire House almost led to its
4:20:24 > 4:20:28feet in animation as we started to talk about golf and tourism and the
4:20:28 > 4:20:33Northwest 300. I think we could have actually carried on for another
4:20:33 > 4:20:43couple of hours like this. Yes... When you are talking about, when the
4:20:43 > 4:20:49honourable gentleman is talking about the Northwest 300, Portrush,
4:20:49 > 4:20:54Port Stewart, that triangle, is it a sheer coincidence, I ask my friend,
4:20:54 > 4:20:58that right in the middle of that triangle is the Bushmills
4:20:58 > 4:21:06distillery? LAUGHTER I'm more familiar with Bob Stewart
4:21:06 > 4:21:10than Paul Stewart but there may be a distillery along that route. I also
4:21:10 > 4:21:14remember there is demountable traffic signs and street furniture
4:21:14 > 4:21:19which can be moved to the side, thanks to Joey Dunlop's
4:21:19 > 4:21:23inspirational leadership. Mr Deputy Speaker, although I have referred to
4:21:23 > 4:21:27your legendary generosity of spirit, I think even you might be tempted to
4:21:27 > 4:21:32rise and for me to have to use it were we to go into more discussions.
4:21:32 > 4:21:37Mr Deputy Speaker, can I just say, ultimately we are talking about a
4:21:37 > 4:21:42subject that none of us really want to be addressing here in this
4:21:42 > 4:21:49chamber. Last Thursday I attended the excellent housing conference
4:21:49 > 4:21:52organised and run on the Titanic centre. To hear people talking about
4:21:52 > 4:21:56housing issues in Northern Ireland, the problems of substandard housing,
4:21:56 > 4:21:58the problems of needing to adapt properties for people with special
4:21:58 > 4:22:02needs, those are the issues we should be talking about. This
4:22:02 > 4:22:06afternoon we talked about the York Street instant change. It is that
4:22:06 > 4:22:10that should be discussed in Stormont, not in Westminster. It is
4:22:10 > 4:22:14important and it matters to the people of Northern Ireland. We
4:22:14 > 4:22:18shouldn't be having to even mention that here and now. The honourable
4:22:18 > 4:22:21gentleman for North West Cambridgeshire was referred to
4:22:21 > 4:22:24earlier run by the honourable member for North Antrim when it was
4:22:24 > 4:22:26remarked upon that the honourable gentleman was going around
4:22:26 > 4:22:31travelling in the highways and byways of Northern Ireland stirring
4:22:31 > 4:22:36up expectations and actually giving people the anticipation of delivery.
4:22:36 > 4:22:41I have every confidence and faith in the honourable gentleman for North
4:22:41 > 4:22:45West Cambridge. I consider him a friend, I appreciate that might
4:22:45 > 4:22:47breach Parliamentary protocol and it has broadly doomed his career as
4:22:47 > 4:22:52well, but I consider him a friend. Adding we have a duty to be
4:22:52 > 4:22:55evangelical and optimistic. I think the people of Northern Ireland, the
4:22:55 > 4:22:58great people of Northern Ireland, some of the greatest people I have
4:22:58 > 4:23:01ever had the privilege of meeting, deserve better. They deserve more
4:23:01 > 4:23:06than better, they deserve the best. They deserve the best from their
4:23:06 > 4:23:11elected representatives in their own part of the world. What we have done
4:23:11 > 4:23:14today has been technical, it has been necessary but I wish we hadn't
4:23:14 > 4:23:16had to do it. Thank you.
4:23:21 > 4:23:25Thank you very much Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to be at
4:23:25 > 4:23:35this debate this afternoon. Matt first of all start by thinking, the
4:23:35 > 4:23:38right honourable members across the house for the contributions to
4:23:38 > 4:23:42today's debate. In particular I would like to thank the opposition
4:23:42 > 4:23:46front bench for the support for these necessary steps to safeguard
4:23:46 > 4:23:56public finances, public services, of our government. In bringing for this
4:23:56 > 4:24:01bill, we take a crucially important step for the previous year. Given
4:24:01 > 4:24:08the large the technical measure of what is proposed, I intend to be
4:24:08 > 4:24:14brief, while responding to the detailed points raised. The
4:24:14 > 4:24:23honourable member when he made his opening remarks made reference to
4:24:23 > 4:24:26several points, Secretary of State, indeed responded to many of them but
4:24:26 > 4:24:35I hope he is comforted and that there has been some confusion, and
4:24:35 > 4:24:42appreciate that the issue of victims pensions Earth, devolved to the his
4:24:42 > 4:24:42assembly.
4:24:46 > 4:24:52Dissolve the assembly. My rightful friend, replied that the detail in
4:24:52 > 4:24:55regards to the specific questions, can I do say that as far as
4:24:55 > 4:25:01scheduled three is concerned, this is cash to be drawn down from the
4:25:01 > 4:25:11consolidated fund to pay from... And use of resources only, but it does
4:25:11 > 4:25:17include non-cash items, such as depreciation costs. And on a house
4:25:17 > 4:25:23inquiry, we cover that quite extensively, he would appreciate
4:25:23 > 4:25:28that no recommendations were made by the assembly before collapse, and
4:25:28 > 4:25:34that is something that my right honourable friend, was able to
4:25:34 > 4:25:44confirm. My honourable friend, also spoke of the costs of poor
4:25:49 > 4:25:57-- border. This budget deal deals with the 2070 2018 budget, the
4:25:57 > 4:25:59spending decisions include any allocations required for Brexit
4:25:59 > 4:26:06costs remains for demonstration to take. The
4:26:09 > 4:26:23for the 18 2019 years as well. For the Northern Ireland, can I clarify
4:26:23 > 4:26:28one particular point, and that is, can I clarify one particular point,
4:26:28 > 4:26:35when the Secretary of State spoke in response to a question during the
4:26:35 > 4:26:40statement she gave last week, she spoke of writing to the head of the
4:26:40 > 4:26:46civil service. She spoke of writing to him, rode to the permanent
4:26:46 > 4:26:48secretary, and did
4:26:55 > 4:27:06-- clarify that particular issue. The minister is aware that last
4:27:06 > 4:27:14week, the head of the civil service, gave evidence under oath to be RHI
4:27:14 > 4:27:24inquiry, he did explain that ministers in the past, not all of
4:27:24 > 4:27:28them, some ministers had given instruction to officials, to civil
4:27:28 > 4:27:36servants that decisions about expenditure in order to avoid
4:27:36 > 4:27:42leaking information, sinks they are going to begin budgets, and make
4:27:42 > 4:27:47decisions about the expenditure, but the minister confirmed for the
4:27:47 > 4:27:51benefit of all of us, and indeed the people of Northern Ireland that that
4:27:51 > 4:27:56policy is no longer in place and that they are indeed keeping records
4:27:56 > 4:28:00of those they meet at all meetings that they have in relation to this
4:28:00 > 4:28:10budget.I am grateful to the lady, the right honourable Lady, it would
4:28:10 > 4:28:21not be appropriate for me to comment on it as such.For home I have high
4:28:21 > 4:28:26regard, this is nothing to do with RHI inquiry, I am not asking about
4:28:26 > 4:28:34the RHI, I'm inquiring because it is ongoing, this is a separate issue.
4:28:34 > 4:28:40In evidence to the inquiry, the head of the civil service, confirmed that
4:28:40 > 4:28:45ministers, and they understood that they had given them instructions to
4:28:45 > 4:28:51civil servants that they would not be capped off meetings in order to
4:28:51 > 4:28:58avoid... I'm pleased to say that there is some headshaking here, can
4:28:58 > 4:29:01I just have the minister confirmed that all permanent secretaries who
4:29:01 > 4:29:07are now running have given instructions to civil servants that
4:29:07 > 4:29:09minutes will be kept of all meetings and decisions recorded at those
4:29:09 > 4:29:19meetings.I hope she will appreciate that there are no ministers and the
4:29:19 > 4:29:21Northern Ireland assembly is and is for them to give instructions to
4:29:21 > 4:29:27permanent secretaries, I cannot give her the assurance that she seeks
4:29:27 > 4:29:29because...
4:29:33 > 4:29:38Moving on, the honourable member, I am grateful for her support, she
4:29:38 > 4:29:44spoke of the delay in this bill coming forward, but I hope she will
4:29:44 > 4:29:50appreciate that we have been very keen on trying to get the assembly
4:29:50 > 4:29:55up and running again. And only recently, through intensive talks,
4:29:55 > 4:30:00to try and progress matters. So we have kept this for the last minute,
4:30:00 > 4:30:03because we were hoping that we would not have to take the decisions that
4:30:03 > 4:30:10we are taking today. Mr Deputy Speaker, my honourable friend raised
4:30:10 > 4:30:19a number of issues and I... Gives financial clarity to Northern
4:30:19 > 4:30:27Ireland departments. It reflects the feedback of the Northern Ireland
4:30:27 > 4:30:31civil service budget consultation and advice from the Northern Ireland
4:30:31 > 4:30:35civil service on board key pressures like, such as health and education,
4:30:35 > 4:30:40it is a balanced budget providing secure basis for protecting and
4:30:40 > 4:30:47preserving public services. The, she also spoke of the city deals and of
4:30:47 > 4:30:55course she is aware that work is ongoing, on these deals. Councils,
4:30:55 > 4:31:00civil service, magistrate are all involved, and charging the way for.
4:31:00 > 4:31:04But she had a house will appreciate that we do need the assembly,
4:31:04 > 4:31:07because they have a huge contribution to make in terms of
4:31:07 > 4:31:14progressing those dissolved assemblies. She also made reference
4:31:14 > 4:31:23to the apprenticeship levy, to clarify it has been allocated and
4:31:23 > 4:31:26share of the apprenticeship levy and it is available to the North Island
4:31:26 > 4:31:29civil service for allocating. However, in line with the
4:31:29 > 4:31:36settlement, it is not for the UK Government to dictate how Northern
4:31:36 > 4:31:43Ireland's share is actually spent. And again, this issue highlights the
4:31:43 > 4:31:51need for having that assembly up and running. Mr Deputy Speaker, the
4:31:51 > 4:31:58honourable member, spoke with his customary manner and passion and it
4:31:58 > 4:32:00was good to hear that he upped clarify the purpose of this bill
4:32:00 > 4:32:05board has been some misunderstanding amongst members of the house. The
4:32:05 > 4:32:11honourable member for Belfast North again, passionate speech where she
4:32:11 > 4:32:20normally delivers, -- he normally delivers. From this perspective, the
4:32:20 > 4:32:27crucial decisions to be taken as we do here today. The honourable member
4:32:27 > 4:32:34spoke of a person with periods and it was certainly beneficial to the
4:32:34 > 4:32:39house to hear that. And she also spoke of the need to get decisions
4:32:39 > 4:32:43made and where the example she gave, the special-needs sector and
4:32:43 > 4:32:48education. Which is one of the examples. The honourable member
4:32:48 > 4:32:52again, he spoke of the lack of decisions with examples being given
4:32:52 > 4:32:56an education and health, but he also highlighted the additional funds for
4:32:56 > 4:33:02the supply agreement which, it is important to remember benefit all
4:33:02 > 4:33:15the people of Northern Ireland. The honourable member again, for the
4:33:15 > 4:33:22need to reinforce the need for decisions to be taken and we had two
4:33:22 > 4:33:22Pacific pin specific
4:33:27 > 4:33:30specific questions, I appreciate very much and the House does as well
4:33:30 > 4:33:42the importance to the economy, the answer that he does not want that as
4:33:42 > 4:33:48a matter that involves this simply for the youth Commonwealth Games.
4:33:48 > 4:33:51And at what so important to try to try to get that assembly up and
4:33:51 > 4:33:59running.I wholeheartedly agree that the best case in the world, it is a
4:33:59 > 4:34:03matter for the Northern Ireland assembly, but reality check, the
4:34:03 > 4:34:07assembly is gone. It is gone for now. We would love to have it back,
4:34:07 > 4:34:11but we have to start planning and put in place an emergency plan
4:34:11 > 4:34:14delicate certainty for funding of events going forward. And that does
4:34:14 > 4:34:19not take away from the assembly restored as soon as possible. I just
4:34:19 > 4:34:25hope that it would take that away, please give certainty to these
4:34:25 > 4:34:30organisations in terms of sport, and in terms of our games.I take on
4:34:30 > 4:34:33board with the honourable Joan and says that he will appreciate that
4:34:33 > 4:34:37the bill before us is of a technical nature as I said in my opening
4:34:37 > 4:34:42comments. It is technical, it is specific, if you'll forgive me but I
4:34:42 > 4:34:48will stick to the terms of the building -- bill that is right
4:34:48 > 4:34:56before us. This constituency, I hope he will be pleased to know that last
4:34:56 > 4:35:01Thursday, I was at the market in London supporting some 14 Northern
4:35:01 > 4:35:07Ireland businesses, dealing with food and drink. But I have to say
4:35:07 > 4:35:11that they all seem to be doing very well in terms of business and seem
4:35:11 > 4:35:18to have picked up contacts here in terms of traders here, we will take
4:35:18 > 4:35:20gets
4:35:25 > 4:35:33goods from them in the future. He asked a specific question in terms
4:35:33 > 4:35:37of the Northern Ireland border in 1999. What I will say is that the
4:35:37 > 4:35:42Department of Northern Ireland 1999 in article four, paragraph three,
4:35:42 > 4:35:47the decisions made by senior officials permanent secretaries
4:35:47 > 4:35:51consider legal authorities, every day in line with legislation. But it
4:35:51 > 4:35:57is a technical issue and I hope that that gives you some comfort.For
4:35:57 > 4:36:03that and his right to paragraph three rather than for, as I
4:36:03 > 4:36:09misdirected him earlier. But Mr, does he not believe that just having
4:36:09 > 4:36:15reflected upon the provisions, and of course it opinion may be sought.
4:36:15 > 4:36:19But that piece of legislation fundamentally underlines this
4:36:19 > 4:36:25blanket stance that no decisions can be taken until ministers are
4:36:25 > 4:36:29appointed there. Is their flexibility and a legislation that
4:36:29 > 4:36:34is suggested in the political atmosphere and the discussions that
4:36:34 > 4:36:41we have currently, given that it's there that we should use them.The
4:36:41 > 4:36:43honourable gentleman is a very distinguished lawyer and he would
4:36:43 > 4:36:50therefore appreciate given the context in which I'm speaking, I
4:36:50 > 4:36:54would prefer and I speak as one lawyer to another, to read that
4:36:54 > 4:36:59particular clause in a wider context before I make any more commitments
4:36:59 > 4:37:03to it. And he will appreciate that I am not in a position to make that
4:37:03 > 4:37:07comment right now. And so hopefully he will be content with that. I
4:37:07 > 4:37:17think the smile on his face says that, yes, he
4:37:17 > 4:37:24Mr Deputy Speaker, with the view... The trying his luck in pushing me
4:37:24 > 4:37:27further than at the dock Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to retrieve
4:37:27 > 4:37:31the point made me by my right honourable friend the Secretary of
4:37:31 > 4:37:37State that the Bill before us does not set out... That will be done in
4:37:37 > 4:37:42the summer through a budget bill, I hope by restoring executive
4:37:42 > 4:37:48following on the Government estimates process. The Bill before
4:37:48 > 4:37:52us concerns departmental allocations for 2017 and 2010, reflecting final
4:37:52 > 4:38:04spending totals and revised allocations. It also -- 2018. To be
4:38:04 > 4:38:07clear, Mr Speaker, this is all money that is either locally raised or
4:38:07 > 4:38:13which has been previously subject to a vote in Parliament. This is simply
4:38:13 > 4:38:19about formalizing the allocations of funding during the year in Northern
4:38:19 > 4:38:26Ireland departments. Pastor providing authorisation -- as for
4:38:26 > 4:38:31providing authorisation, I can assure that this is in line with
4:38:31 > 4:38:34usual processes. Laster, Northern Ireland permanent secretaries are
4:38:34 > 4:38:44forced to rely on emergency powers -- last year. I hope collies will
4:38:44 > 4:38:47agree that it would not be acceptable to invite the same
4:38:47 > 4:38:54uncertainty again. The issue of scrutiny and accountability was
4:38:54 > 4:39:00raised and that is important to appreciate that is there. As as been
4:39:00 > 4:39:05set, measures before us relate to the formalizing of allocations with
4:39:05 > 4:39:15the previous financial year. As the Secretary of State said, -- as the
4:39:15 > 4:39:21former Secretary of State said, there are records in place to report
4:39:21 > 4:39:30the... Last week, my right honourable friend the Secretary of
4:39:30 > 4:39:34State placed the first two departmental responses to Northern
4:39:34 > 4:39:44Ireland audit departments www. We stand ready to continue that
4:39:44 > 4:40:01process... Mr Speaker, I wish to emphasise we would be to the De
4:40:01 > 4:40:04Greef rated as low as possible for that to happen. But in the absence
4:40:04 > 4:40:16of an executive, as they sit there public services. This is why it is
4:40:16 > 4:40:21so important that the Bill's second reading his pass today. I beg of
4:40:21 > 4:40:27this bill be read a second time.The question is that the Bill be read a
4:40:27 > 4:40:36second time. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Under the order of the
4:40:36 > 4:40:41House today, which now moved to the committee of the that order.
4:41:01 > 4:41:11We begin with clause one. The question is a close one... -- clause
4:41:11 > 4:41:15one. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. With leave of the committee come
4:41:15 > 4:41:30I will put as one question the clauses 2-9... The ayes have it, the
4:41:30 > 4:41:37ayes have it. Order.
4:41:57 > 4:42:01I begged her for the victim and his counter the Bill directly to report
4:42:01 > 4:42:07the same without amendment.Under the order of the House, we moved
4:42:07 > 4:42:16directly to third reading. To move third reading... Formally. The
4:42:16 > 4:42:20question is that the Bill be read a third time, as many of that opinion
4:42:20 > 4:42:35said I... The ayes have it, the ayes have it. We move on... We've got, my
4:42:35 > 4:42:46work, the numbers have changed, 4-9... The ayes have it, the ayes
4:42:46 > 4:42:55have it. We now come to motion number 9. What's wrong with this
4:42:55 > 4:43:09thing? It does save 9 here. Now come to motion number ten. The ayes have
4:43:09 > 4:43:18it, the ayes have it. This time it's done correctly, where Albright!
4:43:18 > 4:43:30Thank you, Philippa. The less we are all right. -- we are all right. She
4:43:30 > 4:43:45wants to take number nine separately. We've already done
4:43:45 > 4:43:54number nine, were onto 11-21. As many of that opinion CI, the
4:43:54 > 4:44:03contrary know. The ayes have it. A neck of the presentation to put the
4:44:03 > 4:44:08petitions.I'm glad that we got here. It takes a lot to excite the
4:44:08 > 4:44:17good people of Albert Ketelbey and Todd Lockley -- the good people...
4:44:19 > 4:44:32The petition reads, the proposed closure of the average family --
4:44:32 > 4:44:39Aberfeldy. We ask that the Department for Business, industrial
4:44:39 > 4:44:43and judge and the rollback is common to reconsider the community harming
4:44:43 > 4:44:49and flawed argument about bad bank voters. Further notes that the Royal
4:44:49 > 4:44:52Vegas context into account the concerns of petitioners and take
4:44:52 > 4:44:56whatever steps they can to have the planned closure of the branches
4:44:56 > 4:45:02halted and the petitioners remain etc.
4:45:12 > 4:45:22Thank you. Point of order.Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. A number of
4:45:22 > 4:45:25member subsequent visits of the Wells constituency in recent months,
4:45:25 > 4:45:30where the Leader of the Opposition... This was the case last
4:45:30 > 4:45:34Friday, with the visit of the honourable member for Stroud, who
4:45:34 > 4:45:38chaired a public meeting. Numbers ups and have not always found the
4:45:38 > 4:45:43time to give advance notice. Within the stores, the Dutch with English
4:45:43 > 4:46:00chores make upon us, -- English tourism week.Atticus was to remind
4:46:00 > 4:46:03all members of the cells, whichever party they are, Curtis is our dish
4:46:03 > 4:46:08and let the member know if you're going on political business. If it's
4:46:08 > 4:46:13on the record, I'm sure that everybody will note it. Thank you.I
4:46:13 > 4:46:25beg to move that this House do now adjourn.Hold onto your seat. While
4:46:25 > 4:46:30I take you to the history of greater Manchester's transit network. This
4:46:30 > 4:46:35is... Well, we could have two hours on this. But if it's any help, I
4:46:35 > 4:46:39promise not to take us anywhere near that.Unless there's trouble on the
4:46:39 > 4:46:45line number get delayed.I'm grateful if my friend is going to
4:46:45 > 4:46:49give us a history of Manchester's travel number, which I look forward
4:46:49 > 4:46:55to, Willie also join me in paying tribute to the man described as Mr
4:46:55 > 4:47:04MetroLink, counsellor Andrew Fender, with -- without whom we might not
4:47:04 > 4:47:14have a transit...Counsellor Fender, for many people in Manchester, has
4:47:14 > 4:47:19been an inspiration. He is quiet and reserved as a character. He's not
4:47:19 > 4:47:30somebody who grandstands, who seeks attention. The work requires a lot
4:47:30 > 4:47:33of time and dedication, and I have absolutely no doubt that without the
4:47:33 > 4:47:39time that he put in, the transport and greater Manchester, and a
4:47:39 > 4:47:43transit system in terms of the bus network and cycling routes in
4:47:43 > 4:47:46particular, then greater Manchester would not be as against today as it
4:47:46 > 4:47:49is. I think that is a fitting tribute and thank you for that
4:47:49 > 4:47:56intervention. Greater Manchester's tram network opened in 1992, and
4:47:56 > 4:48:02it's not the UK's biggest light rail network. It's essential to greater
4:48:02 > 4:48:07Manchester's economy, we know how important it is. Getting people from
4:48:07 > 4:48:30H a B is important -- from A to B. -- A to B. It covers 60 miles over
4:48:30 > 4:48:3693 stops, but as always and greater Manchester, we are not content to
4:48:36 > 4:48:42stand still. We want to go even further still. At the moment, new
4:48:42 > 4:48:48line is being built and it will provide connectivity in one of
4:48:48 > 4:48:51your's largest employment size. It will mean people across greater
4:48:51 > 4:48:55Manchester will be able to travel across through the city centre onto
4:48:55 > 4:48:59traffic park and capitalising on the jobs that are being created there.
4:48:59 > 4:49:02This builds on the success of the airport my double take people to
4:49:02 > 4:49:11Manchester Airport, which one of our father that it's essential -- it's
4:49:11 > 4:49:18essential for...Just on that subject, ever mindful that the
4:49:18 > 4:49:24Government has committed to reducing pollution levels, dismembered and
4:49:24 > 4:49:30agree that a working modern technology friendly public transport
4:49:30 > 4:49:34system is essential for a city like Manchester and expansion of services
4:49:34 > 4:49:38to attract more people to use the service, making it more effective
4:49:38 > 4:49:45and therefore cost effective and be of benefit to the environment?
4:49:45 > 4:49:48That's a very important point around how important it is for the
4:49:48 > 4:50:06environment and economy. But I might...To the honourable
4:50:06 > 4:50:13gentleman, and Estes in the mode four providing extensions, the end
4:50:13 > 4:50:22of the line comes out to my constituency, and we'd love to see
4:50:22 > 4:50:24that the dots we get true connectivity around the southern
4:50:24 > 4:50:28area.I think that's a very important point. I think there's a
4:50:28 > 4:50:33case to be made, I will come onto some potential routes in the future.
4:50:33 > 4:50:38Not only for the line to be extended on through, but also for a
4:50:38 > 4:50:42connection from Ashton through to Stockport and threw to the airport
4:50:42 > 4:50:47because as much as the connections in outer Manchester city are
4:50:47 > 4:50:56important, so are the orbital links around the ... We ought to be
4:50:56 > 4:51:00ambitious. But we need to do is create a transport mission that will
4:51:00 > 4:51:04take us over decades, and people who laid the foundation for Manchester's
4:51:04 > 4:51:09current MetroLink system came up with that idea. That nugget of how
4:51:09 > 4:51:14Manchester could be different. Many many generations before, and I think
4:51:14 > 4:51:17its apart now that we take on that responsibility for the next
4:51:17 > 4:51:21generation and that we planned that far ahead, and I think that
4:51:21 > 4:51:26Stockport ought to be deed the missionary -- beat the
4:51:26 > 4:51:36beneficiary...
4:51:40 > 4:51:48in the year that began because a leader. And so -- became the Council
4:51:48 > 4:51:54leader. Decommissioned to be turned into a light rail system. Now that
4:51:54 > 4:52:02clearly had a lot of... And a trampling through the town with all
4:52:02 > 4:52:07the traffic chaos, that naturally happens when you use that network,
4:52:07 > 4:52:14not everyone was convinced it would pay dividends. And to be a benefit
4:52:14 > 4:52:23to the town. As he knelt, this connectivity, of the greater
4:52:23 > 4:52:28Manchester, and if it all sits in isolation, it will capitalise on one
4:52:28 > 4:52:32of the best cities in the world, and will be missing out on a trek. Well
4:52:32 > 4:52:42is important was, to have a vision that it could be the best Alton they
4:52:42 > 4:52:52could be -- that it could be. It was significant that the phase three
4:52:52 > 4:53:02lines on investment of £764 million, a connectivity sites. -- it
4:53:02 > 4:53:12connected many sides. It has a good effect on the housing market where
4:53:12 > 4:53:17it was placed. The Metrolink stops is placed, it was a key site for
4:53:17 > 4:53:27housing, and we know that is being redeveloped, which would be the
4:53:27 > 4:53:30subject of a future debate. Demolished to make way for decent
4:53:30 > 4:53:34secure accommodations for people to live in. And to create a thriving
4:53:34 > 4:53:39neighbourhood. It also connected the community that saw a lot of
4:53:39 > 4:53:46clearance, now really fantastic places and houses for people to live
4:53:46 > 4:53:50in, to do is walk to the station to connect them to Rockdale and
4:53:50 > 4:53:55Manchester and further into the network. To connectivity for them is
4:53:55 > 4:54:03vital. People vote with their feet, and the old heavy rail systems, the
4:54:03 > 4:54:08clunker carriages that were used to have on the stations, it carried 1.1
4:54:08 > 4:54:14million passengers a year, which was impressive, but nowhere near as
4:54:14 > 4:54:18impressive as the three points 6 million people who use the current
4:54:18 > 4:54:23Metrolink system on the same line. So we know it as a material effect
4:54:23 > 4:54:27on increasing passenger numbers, and of course the more people on the
4:54:27 > 4:54:31tram, fewer people have to travel by car because they have a genuine
4:54:31 > 4:54:36alternative and environmentally friendly way. If the government are
4:54:36 > 4:54:43serious about this, it is critical that we rebalance the UK economy,
4:54:43 > 4:54:48but also need to understand that if all we do is benefit Manchester in
4:54:48 > 4:54:51the south of Manchester, which have historically been the better
4:54:51 > 4:54:56performing parts of Manchester, and we don't concentrate on northern
4:54:56 > 4:55:00Manchester which is underperformed compared to south, and we miss an
4:55:00 > 4:55:03opportunity to make sure that every part of the Northern powerhouse can
4:55:03 > 4:55:09benefit from future investment. And just to give a sort of context, this
4:55:09 > 4:55:22is not just a knotted Manchester, they return from Manchester South,
4:55:22 > 4:55:2934 point £1 billion a year. And that accounts for 68% of the total GBA
4:55:29 > 4:55:38for greater Manchester. Not saying that South Manchester has an over
4:55:38 > 4:55:41performance, but enough of Manchester can do far better to
4:55:41 > 4:55:43contribute to the
4:55:46 > 4:55:56... On transport, housing, on skills, and on investment. And this
4:55:56 > 4:56:02debate, it's how we might achieve that. And so, if you've ever done
4:56:02 > 4:56:06the Manchester Metrolink track, and you've been taken on a real journey,
4:56:06 > 4:56:12Brad Jabir Mitzi while I take you on a journey of the future, if the
4:56:12 > 4:56:15greater Manchester and government work together on this plan. Somebody
4:56:15 > 4:56:21concentrate on the
4:56:24 > 4:56:31as you are coming down the Metrolink track, and you get to the station,
4:56:31 > 4:56:36the track will turn to the left, towards Manchester. But, in this new
4:56:36 > 4:56:41journey, that we taking today, he could continue straight down Milton
4:56:41 > 4:56:42Road on sunny
4:56:42 > 4:56:52towards middle state -- sunny climb towards Middleton. And head towards
4:56:52 > 4:56:57the park, enjoying with very line that will connect you with greater
4:56:57 > 4:57:03Manchester. You could coming back where you are currently carried on
4:57:03 > 4:57:04to Rockdale, no
4:57:05 > 4:57:15there to ashen go on from there to Ashton Road, onto, Ashton town
4:57:15 > 4:57:25centre where currently the line terminates, ill carry on shift
4:57:25 > 4:57:32Ashton and go on to Ashton town centre, and then the potential of
4:57:32 > 4:57:37creating a loop onto Stockport and onto Manchester Airport, suddenly,
4:57:37 > 4:57:41you're beginning to create what's been dubbed by the Manchester news
4:57:41 > 4:57:48as the Circle line. A way to create proper connectivity across greater
4:57:48 > 4:57:52Manchester, in a way that the motorway currently provides her car
4:57:52 > 4:58:00users. And that would be for many good jobs, far tourist industry, a
4:58:00 > 4:58:08fantastic boost. It also mean it would play a critical part of an
4:58:08 > 4:58:12imported transport hub. It would just be the place where people pass
4:58:12 > 4:58:20through, it mean that all would be absolutely critical as
4:58:20 > 4:58:26interconnectivity between Berry, Rockdale, Manchester and maybe
4:58:26 > 4:58:35further on if we further extensions. It becomes very much important for
4:58:35 > 4:58:38investment, for a generation, and I believe important catalyst for
4:58:38 > 4:58:44rebalancing the economy across greater Manchester. To achieve this,
4:58:44 > 4:58:50we need to be honest, at the moment the financial model is heavily
4:58:50 > 4:58:58predicated, what does this mean for GBA return? But return we get, pound
4:58:58 > 4:59:05for pound on the local economy? This so we assess capital in this
4:59:05 > 4:59:10country, the needs of fundamental rethink. There are to be some
4:59:10 > 4:59:16measure, human capital. So what's a starting point will want everybody
4:59:16 > 4:59:23to have equal opportunity to access decent, well-paid, secure, jobs. To
4:59:23 > 4:59:33access decent sporting facilities? To do that the starting point will
4:59:33 > 4:59:37be a different point. And it would need to be a rebalancing taking
4:59:37 > 4:59:41place. And this is why it's important. You can rebalance from
4:59:41 > 4:59:45two ways, bring the highest performance area down to lowest
4:59:45 > 4:59:52performing area and make an equal. In the economy will suffer as a
4:59:52 > 4:59:59result. Or, we raise our currently underperforming area with investment
4:59:59 > 5:00:03so that everybody thrives across greater Manchester. To do that, we
5:00:03 > 5:00:07do need a different way of assessing returns, because the truth is, on
5:00:07 > 5:00:14any assessment today, building a mile of Metrolink track in, it will
5:00:14 > 5:00:18have a higher return than building a mile of Metrolink track and older.
5:00:18 > 5:00:22Because the starting point is very different, and I do not believe that
5:00:22 > 5:00:25as a way to generate investment plans that rebounds as the economy
5:00:25 > 5:00:32in the way that we need to see. And this debate is about of course,
5:00:32 > 5:00:39setting out a potential room, but I'm not precious about exactly which
5:00:39 > 5:00:46road and which route this ultimately goes on, but I am passionate about
5:00:46 > 5:00:49Alton really realising its potential. I am passionate about
5:00:49 > 5:01:01people in all been having access to high paid jobs, and that their
5:01:01 > 5:01:08horizon is not just at the end industry. But it's much further --
5:01:08 > 5:01:10and industry, but it is much further.
5:01:14 > 5:01:19I'd been helping my son navigate very complex world, it seems of
5:01:19 > 5:01:24apprenticeships and college courses. And we're looking at some
5:01:24 > 5:01:28apprenticeships in the park, which is not far. You get there half an
5:01:28 > 5:01:34hour. By car. This would get engineering classes stop the problem
5:01:34 > 5:01:42was, that our bus system does not connect young people with the park
5:01:42 > 5:01:47in a way that people can get to those jobs to create shift work. If
5:01:47 > 5:01:56you live in Roy ten, and your real person and you want to get to the
5:01:56 > 5:01:58park Fred NAM shift
5:02:00 > 5:02:088am shift start, the buses do not start until later in the morning, so
5:02:08 > 5:02:11if you're a young person that does not have a licence and cannot make
5:02:11 > 5:02:17it thereunder on transport, and you're relying on public transport,
5:02:17 > 5:02:21which would be the boss. Straight you're excluded from jobs were to
5:02:21 > 5:02:26get ships and one of the largest engineering employment location in
5:02:26 > 5:02:33Europe. It is cannot be right. There is none of this debate that's about
5:02:33 > 5:02:36saying, if all we do is build this bit of Metrolink track over here
5:02:36 > 5:02:42then it will all be fixed. My point is more broader mean that we need to
5:02:42 > 5:02:48get transport in greater Manchester for people and we see a significant,
5:02:48 > 5:02:55a significant effort on the part of greater Manchester and its team on
5:02:55 > 5:02:58the greater Manchester combined
5:02:58 > 5:03:03greater Manchester and its team on the greater Manchester combined, on
5:03:03 > 5:03:06the very dedicated officers that work transport for greater
5:03:06 > 5:03:11Manchester. But the truth is, some of this comes down to resources and
5:03:11 > 5:03:17investment. In our experience and greater Manchester unfortunately,
5:03:17 > 5:03:23has been we have lost many bus routes that would connect your
5:03:23 > 5:03:27people with the job opportunities of tomorrow and we need to see
5:03:27 > 5:03:32investment in that. We also need to see proper capsule investment that
5:03:32 > 5:03:35at least brings greater Manchester on par with London. Everyone greater
5:03:35 > 5:03:42Manchester to be thriving, and an active part of the northern
5:03:42 > 5:03:44powerhouse, you can have a northern powerhouse that it is done on the
5:03:44 > 5:03:52cheek. It is to see investment bank we see in this capital city -- that
5:03:52 > 5:03:56we see in this capital city. And if we see a fraction of it, I think
5:03:56 > 5:04:01we'll see a different outcome for young people in greater Manchester.
5:04:01 > 5:04:07From government, is to get behind, not necessarily the eighth is the
5:04:07 > 5:04:10route that we are proposing, that will come out of the feasibility
5:04:10 > 5:04:15report and a technical assessment of what's possible and of course,
5:04:15 > 5:04:18patronage, and whatever physical barriers may be in place. But the
5:04:18 > 5:04:24barrier that should not be in place is the desire to make greater
5:04:24 > 5:04:27Manchester absolutely great. And I can only happen if government comes
5:04:27 > 5:04:32to the table offers real investment, and works of greater Manchester to
5:04:32 > 5:04:41make sure that transport in the future is far better than is today.
5:04:41 > 5:04:45Thank you very much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker, I don't have an
5:04:45 > 5:04:48enormous amount of time I think I have 12 minutes of I understand this
5:04:48 > 5:05:02correctly. So let me just respond to this.The Minister has until 730.
5:05:02 > 5:05:09Than I can extend myself, very glad to hear that. When I heard the name,
5:05:09 > 5:05:14since I can mention it, I cannot refer to the gentleman, it had to be
5:05:14 > 5:05:19referring to one of my great heroes, the former quarterback for the
5:05:19 > 5:05:22Chicago Bears. And the Green Bay Packers. And my sense of excitement
5:05:22 > 5:05:31to being able to respond to him, taking interest in our issues. It is
5:05:31 > 5:05:37no less great having the opportunity to respond to the honourable
5:05:37 > 5:05:42gentleman opposite, who was himself an award-winning leader of counsel
5:05:42 > 5:05:47when he was there. And he is a little confused why we say so but
5:05:47 > 5:05:51some of the responsibilities involved, is responsibly for buses
5:05:51 > 5:05:57and indeed enhanced powers under the new legislation. But his subject
5:05:57 > 5:06:04today and rightfully so is the Metrolink system. And I think
5:06:04 > 5:06:07everyone in this house, and certainly everyone who's travelled
5:06:07 > 5:06:13around it, will agree that it has been a colossal success for the
5:06:13 > 5:06:18economy, and I agree with them and contribute to a government
5:06:18 > 5:06:22standpoint, to the work is done over the past 41 years. Opinion is
5:06:22 > 5:06:27divided as to whether or not he should be regarded as Mr Metrolink
5:06:27 > 5:06:36or Mr transport? We congratulate him and it is very well made point.
5:06:36 > 5:06:40Transport is of an anonymous important to this government and
5:06:40 > 5:06:47absolutely response to his question, and the Northwest, strategic
5:06:47 > 5:06:53development as the North as a whole. We very much agree with local
5:06:53 > 5:06:58partners that is essential for growth and that is why the
5:06:58 > 5:07:02government is investing significantly in local, transport
5:07:02 > 5:07:08infrastructure. Including £15 billion on a network and £6 billion
5:07:08 > 5:07:12on the local fund. This investment is designed specifically to drive
5:07:12 > 5:07:18economic growth that we wish to see, but also, to allow those other
5:07:18 > 5:07:21opportunities for transport, for the social and family benefits that come
5:07:21 > 5:07:25from that, and also to relieve the economy of these temporarily
5:07:25 > 5:07:30reopened the effects of congestion. We are creating a northern
5:07:30 > 5:07:33powerhouse to rebalance the economy, and that is an aim that we commonly
5:07:33 > 5:07:38share. And the reason for creating transport for the North, as in the
5:07:38 > 5:07:45sea, is to provide a local voice that could convene and gather those
5:07:45 > 5:07:48different projects, those different schemes, that total regional
5:07:48 > 5:07:51ambition if you'd like, and one place that would support economic
5:07:51 > 5:07:57growth in the north. And I think the house should know that we will
5:07:57 > 5:08:00invest £13 billion in this Parliament to connect the regions
5:08:00 > 5:08:05better so the cities across that region can pool their strengths and
5:08:05 > 5:08:11create not just a series of city economies or a series of regional
5:08:11 > 5:08:16economies set by geography, but a single powerhouse. A single economy
5:08:16 > 5:08:19as a whole. And greater Manchester is at the heart of that. Of course I
5:08:19 > 5:08:25would be glad to.
5:08:25 > 5:08:28Everything on that point is accepted, and that event we attend
5:08:28 > 5:08:31to Manchester with the Northern Powerhouse Minister was very much in
5:08:31 > 5:08:35the spirit of working together across party political lines for the
5:08:35 > 5:08:39greatest outcome for greater Manchester. It was a point made by
5:08:39 > 5:08:54me at that meeting that went a just two is in place, -- HS2...Every
5:08:54 > 5:09:00journey begins with the local journey. Unless you happen to live
5:09:00 > 5:09:05in a terminus or so. It's also true that as with the MetroLink, the
5:09:05 > 5:09:12secretive HS2 is a capacity story. As much as it is a speed story. The
5:09:12 > 5:09:20capacity has greatly increased over the last few years. This, as I think
5:09:20 > 5:09:24he knows and as the House will know, greater Manchester has seen a
5:09:24 > 5:09:29revolution in this public transport over the past two years. Through the
5:09:29 > 5:09:31innovative greater Manchester transport fund, which combines local
5:09:31 > 5:09:38funding with local funds from... We have seen the introduction of a bus
5:09:38 > 5:09:53corridor, including the death of -- including the... I'd like to pay
5:09:53 > 5:09:56particular tribute to the mayor of greater Manchester further work that
5:09:56 > 5:10:02he's done with Chris Borden in reimagining the possibilities of
5:10:02 > 5:10:17what the... that a further 20 £2 million is being provided to the
5:10:17 > 5:10:23Metro Mayor of their Manchester to support public transport, in --
5:10:23 > 5:10:36improve sustainable travel and... On the rails, this is my specific
5:10:36 > 5:10:38breed, it's worth saying that the great North rail project has allowed
5:10:38 > 5:10:45us to upgrade the adjuster Victoria and connect Manchester's Main to
5:10:45 > 5:10:51railway stations for the first time through... They will provide direct
5:10:51 > 5:10:57links to Manchester Airport from the dot we've also delivered upgrades
5:10:57 > 5:11:02and electrification Liverpool and Manchester and cut the passes
5:11:02 > 5:11:05journey time by 15 minutes since 2015. We have upgraded the route
5:11:05 > 5:11:17between Manchester and Wigan... But of course, at the centre of this
5:11:17 > 5:11:25development has been the success of the MetroLink system. As he rightly
5:11:25 > 5:11:31indulges. This started in 1992 and has continued through to the current
5:11:31 > 5:11:39construction of the traffic park extinction. The first extension to
5:11:39 > 5:11:43though that in 2008, MetroLink embarked on a £1.9 billion
5:11:43 > 5:11:46investment programme that transformed the network and service.
5:11:46 > 5:11:49A tripled in size, providing improved connectivity to jobs,
5:11:49 > 5:11:56retail and leisure opportunities. New facilities made the network even
5:11:56 > 5:12:00more accessible and that's helped to reduce traffic congestion across the
5:12:00 > 5:12:04region, while customer facilities have been upgraded and a brand-new
5:12:04 > 5:12:18fleet of trams... I congratulate him on his timing in arriving in the
5:12:18 > 5:12:32Council to take credit of the... One the civil engineering achievement
5:12:32 > 5:12:35award. Other improvements have included the short extension to
5:12:35 > 5:12:40media village and the second city crossing. That letter project is a
5:12:40 > 5:12:45short but important route designed to alleviate congestion by providing
5:12:45 > 5:12:49a second rep to the city centre. It is helping to improve the
5:12:49 > 5:12:52reliability and resilience of the network and allowing it to operate
5:12:52 > 5:12:57to its full extent. The most recent development is the construction of
5:12:57 > 5:13:02the traffic park extension, which is currently under way. This has been
5:13:02 > 5:13:06funded in part as part of the devolution deal with the greater
5:13:06 > 5:13:08Manchester combined authority which gives the city the greater certainty
5:13:08 > 5:13:14and needs to invest in this and other important local schemes. This
5:13:14 > 5:13:18will link some of greater Manchester's biggest visitor
5:13:18 > 5:13:23destinations as well as running through traffic park. It will be
5:13:23 > 5:13:33owned by the -- service are expected to start in 2020. The result of the
5:13:33 > 5:13:35investment and this exciting development is that MetroLink is now
5:13:35 > 5:13:41the largest lead rail network in the UK with 93 stops across 57 miles of
5:13:41 > 5:13:45track. It is a model for what can be done with steady and sustained
5:13:45 > 5:13:50investment. It is a public transport network that passengers are using in
5:13:50 > 5:13:59large numbers. A massive success overall and a reason why investment
5:13:59 > 5:14:01continues both from the Government's site and from the side of the
5:14:01 > 5:14:08combined authorities. I am aware and the honourable member has been
5:14:08 > 5:14:14making clear today his continued support for further extensions to
5:14:14 > 5:14:16the Manchester Metrolink system. Such is the Ashton Loop line from
5:14:16 > 5:14:30Ashton town centre, and a spur to Middleton. A Circle line, as he has
5:14:30 > 5:14:44described at these in potentia. Now, the future of the network... I
5:14:44 > 5:14:47understand the combined authority have a number of ideas about future
5:14:47 > 5:14:58expansion including possible links, as well as a possible third bag
5:14:58 > 5:15:01across the city centre. I congratulate my honourable friend
5:15:01 > 5:15:09for putting this issue squarely into the public agenda once again. As
5:15:09 > 5:15:14much basic local constituency interests and authorities as much is
5:15:14 > 5:15:24facing central government.
5:15:24 > 5:15:32We will announce a decision... I also understand that TF GM are
5:15:32 > 5:15:36looking for said using tram train technology. The current project to
5:15:36 > 5:15:40provide this between Sheffield and rubber should provide real lessons
5:15:40 > 5:15:47-- Rotherham. The governor will continue to work with a combined
5:15:47 > 5:15:50authorities as it develops its strategies and we will continue to
5:15:50 > 5:15:53consider future bids for funding. Greater Manchester has shown that
5:15:53 > 5:15:59it's able to make use of its own resources without the that that
5:15:59 > 5:16:04there is merit in continuing cooperation and wrinkles and the
5:16:04 > 5:16:07superstructure projects. The system is only one of the light rail
5:16:07 > 5:16:11systems in this country and our view on this is a development and
5:16:11 > 5:16:16transport is very simple. We support it and we think it has massive
5:16:16 > 5:16:20benefits. We've already seen the impact for both passengers and the
5:16:20 > 5:16:23local economy in cities such as Nottingham, Birmingham, and
5:16:23 > 5:16:30Manchester. All three, the system is become integral part of the
5:16:30 > 5:16:36transport network. We supported it because we know that it is part of a
5:16:36 > 5:16:40strong and resilient local economy. The recent announcement by the
5:16:40 > 5:16:44Chancellor of the new £1.7 billion transforming cities fund will
5:16:44 > 5:16:47provide funding for more light rail schemes which will help drive our
5:16:47 > 5:16:50activity and growth in cities where it's most needed. Connecting
5:16:50 > 5:17:03computer these -- communities. The joy of a light rail system is that
5:17:03 > 5:17:08it helps support not merely an integrated transport network, which
5:17:08 > 5:17:13reduces congestion, but one that also is a very good -- is very good
5:17:13 > 5:17:15for our quality and very environmentally from it. It's a
5:17:15 > 5:17:19green form of transport which makes locations better places to live, not
5:17:19 > 5:17:23just better places to get to. We have seen evidence that implementing
5:17:23 > 5:17:32a systems -- if a light rail system... It can bring in tourism
5:17:32 > 5:17:36and give a sense of place and distinction to a place even as
5:17:36 > 5:17:47already distinguished as old. Few other companies these days do not
5:17:47 > 5:17:51think in terms of trends produces when they are to locate. Whether Bay
5:17:51 > 5:17:54offices are going to be or where satellite offices are going to be.
5:17:54 > 5:17:59They note that high rail is popular with their users is reflected in her
5:17:59 > 5:18:05statistics. They show record numbers of passengers using light rail.
5:18:05 > 5:18:12Passenger numbers continue to rise in England and so far, to a record
5:18:12 > 5:18:23267 million since records began in the 1983 -- since 1983. However, we
5:18:23 > 5:18:28also have to be realistic and clear and to say that we acknowledge that
5:18:28 > 5:18:32light rail is not necessarily suitable for every place. There are
5:18:32 > 5:18:36places that are different and have their own set of demands and
5:18:36 > 5:18:55interests. We do feel that there is... The Government will need to
5:18:55 > 5:19:02continue with let me say that Manchester Metrolink has been a
5:19:02 > 5:19:11great success, it has been the -- a success because it has provided the
5:19:11 > 5:19:15that it has been made possible by the combined commitment of
5:19:15 > 5:19:18significant local transfer investment by central government and
5:19:18 > 5:19:25also investment made through the combined authority. We are confident
5:19:25 > 5:19:27that the Petro accessible continued to play a key role in the future
5:19:27 > 5:19:42success of greater Manchester and -- Metrolink.The question is that this
5:19:42 > 5:19:53has to adjourn. The ayes have it. Order, order.