02/03/2016

:00:12. > :00:22.The review is independently lead and evidence led as well. It will be

:00:23. > :00:26.evidence put forward to consider, and the importance of its

:00:27. > :00:29.considerations will be about the state pension the review will

:00:30. > :00:35.consider changes in life expectancy as well as wider changes in society.

:00:36. > :00:41.It is also useful at this point to remind the house why this kind of

:00:42. > :00:55.review is necessary. In 1945, a man retiring at 65 had a life expectancy

:00:56. > :01:02.of between 60 and 63. This rose to 27 years after retirement under

:01:03. > :01:09.current timescales. Women went from 18 years in retirement to 29.5 years

:01:10. > :01:13.in retirement. In future, generations their would rightly

:01:14. > :01:18.expects that we should reflect those changes in how we set the pension.

:01:19. > :01:22.It is right that pensions should reflect these changes in life

:01:23. > :01:28.expectancy. Future generations will not thank us if we did nothing and

:01:29. > :01:31.didn't have the courage to ensure pensions are sustainable to avoid

:01:32. > :01:39.them picking up the Pelle. -- the bill. This review is not... It will

:01:40. > :01:44.not cover the existing pension age timetable up to April 20 28. We have

:01:45. > :01:48.already provided legislation for this and the review will not look to

:01:49. > :01:54.change the state pension age up to this point. The Labour government

:01:55. > :02:00.first legislated for state pension rises beyond 65. But without any

:02:01. > :02:04.commitment to an independent review. When we brought forward the pensions

:02:05. > :02:09.Bill in 2013, Labour seemed to have a change of heart. They agreed with

:02:10. > :02:14.us for the need for a regular independent review of the state

:02:15. > :02:18.pension age. The Shadow Secretary of State at the time, the honourable

:02:19. > :02:21.member for Birmingham Hodge Hill said, the Secretary of State and I

:02:22. > :02:26.have no difference of opinion on the need regularly to review the state

:02:27. > :02:32.pension age. So that is what we are doing. Under that legislation, we

:02:33. > :02:36.are required to appoint an independent reviewer who will make

:02:37. > :02:40.recommendations to him on future state pension age arrangements. We

:02:41. > :02:47.have appointed John Cridland to lead this work. Under the legislation we

:02:48. > :02:52.are required to report in 2017 on this, and that is what we will do.

:02:53. > :02:55.This review is part of the Government's reforms to pensions to

:02:56. > :03:03.ensure that they are of audible from the long. But it is right to

:03:04. > :03:06.recognise those who have reached their pensionable age and worked

:03:07. > :03:10.hard and done the right thing and providing for their families, and we

:03:11. > :03:15.are delivering for them. As a result of our triple lock, pensioners will

:03:16. > :03:20.be receiving a basic state pension over ?1100 higher than they were at

:03:21. > :03:25.the start of the last Parliament. We are providing greater security, more

:03:26. > :03:28.choice, and dignity for people in retirement. Whilst also ensuring the

:03:29. > :03:37.system is sustainable for the future. My Lords, I start by

:03:38. > :03:43.thanking the noble lady for repeating the statement delivered in

:03:44. > :03:47.the other place. One of the matters which is characterised this

:03:48. > :03:52.Government's approach to pensions, both changes to the state and

:03:53. > :03:57.private pensions, has been the lamentable approach to communicating

:03:58. > :04:05.change. This has manifested itself in the frustrations of the group,

:04:06. > :04:08.misunderstandings of over why a minority of those retiring after the

:04:09. > :04:16.5th of April this year will receive the full rate of ?155 of the new

:04:17. > :04:18.state pension. These issues arising from the so-called new

:04:19. > :04:22.flexibilities. Can I ask what assurance will the Minister gave

:04:23. > :04:27.about not repeating the mistakes of the past when the review, which is

:04:28. > :04:33.being undertaken, brings forward its recommendations. The terms of

:04:34. > :04:38.reference were cryo consideration of what is suitable state pension

:04:39. > :04:43.require consideration of what a suitable state pension age is in the

:04:44. > :04:47.future. This is what the noble Baroness states, the review will be

:04:48. > :04:55.focused on the longer term and will not cover the existing timetable to

:04:56. > :05:00.April 2028. Could the minister please reconcile these two

:05:01. > :05:03.positions? It is a classic case of confused communication which fuels

:05:04. > :05:10.like elation about the Government's true intent. -- which fuels

:05:11. > :05:15.speculation. Do we take it that there is no intention of revisiting

:05:16. > :05:19.the position of those women in their mid-50s who are adamant they

:05:20. > :05:25.received inadequate notice of their state pension age rise? The review

:05:26. > :05:31.has did take a view on how changes to state pension age rises supports

:05:32. > :05:38.affordability. Can I ask therefore, is the triple lock within its scope?

:05:39. > :05:42.We accepted the 2014 provision which required a periodic review of the

:05:43. > :05:48.pension age. We know that life expectancy is generally increasing,

:05:49. > :05:51.no more so that this does not always equate with healthy years of life.

:05:52. > :05:58.We know also that health inequalities will remain stubbornly

:05:59. > :06:03.persistent. How does the Minister consider these factors should be

:06:04. > :06:10.reflected in a fair approach to the pension age? And can the review

:06:11. > :06:14.cover an assessment of the adequacy of Social Security arrangements for

:06:15. > :06:22.those who cannot sustain work before reaching an extension pension age.

:06:23. > :06:26.We wish John Cridland well with his review, transparency consultation

:06:27. > :06:27.and a clear recognition of the need for long-term notification of any

:06:28. > :06:42.changes will be vital. I thank the noble lord for his

:06:43. > :06:54.comments. I would like to request and invite all noble Lords to be in

:06:55. > :06:57.touch with the review so that we can ensure on issues relevant to the

:06:58. > :07:02.consideration of long-term changes in the state pension age and state

:07:03. > :07:07.pension age policy. This is the opportunity to do that. It will be

:07:08. > :07:10.an independent review which will consider all the relevant factors,

:07:11. > :07:17.and it will be up to the reviewer who will welcome such evidence. The

:07:18. > :07:25.review is about the state pension age. And it is also about the longer

:07:26. > :07:32.term, so I repeat that it will not consider any changes to the state

:07:33. > :07:42.pension age timetable that is already legislated for up to 2028.

:07:43. > :07:47.Can we just clarify that point - I have got a copy here saying that

:07:48. > :07:48.what a suitable pension age in in the immediate future and the longer

:07:49. > :08:04.term. The government made it clear that

:08:05. > :08:08.this is about the changes for the longer term and the appropriate

:08:09. > :08:12.framework for state pension age policy. No changes will be

:08:13. > :08:19.considered and the reviewer will not be looking at making or recommending

:08:20. > :08:30.any changes to the timetable before 2028. Stephen Webb as pensions

:08:31. > :08:36.minister, set up a system for gradual rising of the pensions age,

:08:37. > :08:41.why is the government seeking so soon to unpick this consensus and is

:08:42. > :08:44.it contemplating changes that will fall harshly on low income and

:08:45. > :08:48.especially women who depend on the state pension and have no private

:08:49. > :08:55.pot to enable them to retire earlier? I would like to assure the

:08:56. > :09:01.noble lady that this is not about picking anything, it was legislated

:09:02. > :09:09.for in the 2014 pensions act, we are mealy following the legislation was

:09:10. > :09:12.introduced. I welcome the statement from the lady minister and the

:09:13. > :09:17.setting up of an independent enquiry. I can only offer my

:09:18. > :09:22.sympathy to the chairman because pension age, is as she knows, a hot

:09:23. > :09:28.potato politically. There was a debate in the Commons last week

:09:29. > :09:32.about the whole case of the baby boomer women, a motion only lost by

:09:33. > :09:39.a few votes calling for action from the government about transitional

:09:40. > :09:42.provision for these women. Would the minister, who in a previous in

:09:43. > :09:48.Carnation, showed great sympathy for these baby boomer women experts

:09:49. > :09:56.concerned that this is not within the remit of the new appointed

:09:57. > :10:03.review? I stress to the noble lady and noble Lords that if there are

:10:04. > :10:08.any issues they would like to raise with the independent reviewer,

:10:09. > :10:12.lessons to be learned from the past by issued that should be considered

:10:13. > :10:16.for the future, please do raise them with the review. It is an

:10:17. > :10:20.independent review looking at all the relevant factors. Will the

:10:21. > :10:24.Minister give the house and assurance today that if the

:10:25. > :10:29.independent review ruled that that category of women, which I have do

:10:30. > :10:33.declare an interest, I fall within that group of women and also served

:10:34. > :10:41.as Shadow Minister for women's pensions for a year. That the

:10:42. > :10:44.government will accept any regulations accept that the

:10:45. > :10:50.government did not allow ten years for them to prepare for a changed

:10:51. > :10:55.retirement age? They will consider long-term changes to the state

:10:56. > :11:01.pension age, it will not be making any recommendations for changes

:11:02. > :11:07.before that which is currently legislated up to 2028. Could we say

:11:08. > :11:10.if the review would take into account the ability for people to

:11:11. > :11:16.work beyond the age of 65, bearing in mind that some people have a very

:11:17. > :11:21.physical job and may not be able to work after that time? My Lords, as

:11:22. > :11:24.the terms of the reference made clear, the independent review will

:11:25. > :11:30.consider changes in life expectancies as well as all other

:11:31. > :11:35.relevant factors. If I could ask the Minister if the independent reviewer

:11:36. > :11:39.will be provided by the government with an official terms of reference?

:11:40. > :11:42.We have seen a press release but will there be a formal terms of

:11:43. > :11:48.reference in terms of shaping the work he will do? Will it be possible

:11:49. > :11:52.for him to consider some of these schemes that have been used

:11:53. > :11:57.previously by Scandinavian countries which simply index the entries in

:11:58. > :12:05.the basic state pension age to the increase in longevity as it goes

:12:06. > :12:09.forward, both up and down. Indeed, my Lords, this will be an

:12:10. > :12:13.independent review. All of these matters are a matter for the

:12:14. > :12:17.reviewer and I would urge as many noble Lords are possible to make

:12:18. > :12:23.representations to the review, it will consult widely across society

:12:24. > :12:27.and a cross interest groups to ensure that all of these relevant

:12:28. > :12:32.factors are considered. Does the Minister accept there is a deep

:12:33. > :12:39.unfairness in having a single retirement age irrespective of

:12:40. > :12:42.background? In my home city, two wards, one mile apart have a

:12:43. > :12:48.difference in life expectancy of 11 years. So that those who are better

:12:49. > :12:54.off, with more state pensions for longer and also enjoyed it

:12:55. > :13:03.disability free years. Does the Minister accept that every time she

:13:04. > :13:08.raises the state pension age, disadvantage people are more likely

:13:09. > :13:12.to incur disabilities earlier so they enter retirement already unfit,

:13:13. > :13:21.unwell and unable to enjoy retirement. She raises relevant

:13:22. > :13:26.points and I would like once again to stress that this review is not

:13:27. > :13:30.just about raising the state pension age but about considering what is

:13:31. > :13:35.the appropriate way to run state pension age policy and I would

:13:36. > :13:39.encourage her to raise those issues with the reviewer. Would be Minister

:13:40. > :13:47.approved the wording of the press release that has been referred to

:13:48. > :13:51.with the word immediacy in it? My Lords, the press release has been

:13:52. > :13:57.compiled by the Department. And the wording of the release has of course

:13:58. > :14:06.been approved. European Union referendum, data referendum etc

:14:07. > :14:11.regulations, Baron sanely St John's. My Lords, before us today are two

:14:12. > :14:16.motions, each of which goes to the heart of the United Kingdom 's place

:14:17. > :14:21.in the European Union. The first is a statutory instrument which in

:14:22. > :14:25.light of the UK's renegotiated arrangement with the European Union

:14:26. > :14:30.would set the date for the referendum. The second refers to a

:14:31. > :14:35.document published and laid before this house last week, on Monday 22nd

:14:36. > :14:40.February, and this sets out the terms of the new relationship. My

:14:41. > :14:44.lord, I will take each of those interned but perhaps I may be

:14:45. > :14:48.forgiven if I start simply by referring to how much I am looking

:14:49. > :14:54.forward to hearing today the maiden speech of my noble friend, Lord

:14:55. > :15:00.Gilbert a planned ten. In returning to the statutory instrument, this is

:15:01. > :15:04.required to set the date of the referendum. Given the deal achieved

:15:05. > :15:08.by the Prime Minister, it is time to give the British people there say.

:15:09. > :15:14.The Prime Minister has announced his intention to do so on the 23rd of

:15:15. > :15:19.June. But it is for Parliament, in this house and the other place to

:15:20. > :15:24.approve that date. The statutory arrangement gives this house the

:15:25. > :15:28.chance to give its approval today. It does several other things which I

:15:29. > :15:32.will come to but first, let me set out why the government believes the

:15:33. > :15:38.23rd of June is the right day for the poll itself. My Lords, the 23rd

:15:39. > :15:47.of June strikes the right balance between having a proper debate and a

:15:48. > :15:52.timely vote. Any sooner and we risk curtailing the campaign and any

:15:53. > :15:57.later, and we risk testing the patience of the British people. We

:15:58. > :16:03.have to take account of what is real in human life outside the world of

:16:04. > :16:07.politics. Shortly after the 23rd of June, schools start to break up for

:16:08. > :16:12.the holidays and noble Lords will continue to be working after that, I

:16:13. > :16:16.would assume so, we normally do but it would certainly be seen as

:16:17. > :16:20.awkward if we held the referendum while people were on holiday for the

:16:21. > :16:25.summer and that has not been a popular proposal in the past.

:16:26. > :16:28.Delaying beyond June would mean delaying a referendum until

:16:29. > :16:36.September or October. The British people would quite rightly expect to

:16:37. > :16:40.have their say sooner than that. The opportunity yesterday and formally

:16:41. > :16:46.asking her about the problems that might arise if the Queen 's speech

:16:47. > :16:52.was to take place during the course of the referendum campaign. She

:16:53. > :16:56.kindly dealt with that, there is a report this morning that the Queen

:16:57. > :17:01.'s speech will now be held in July, could she confirm if that is the

:17:02. > :17:04.case? I am grateful to the noble Lord, he was indeed helpful

:17:05. > :17:10.yesterday can one of the meetings I have held raising these matters. Can

:17:11. > :17:14.I put it on the record that the answer I gave yesterday, but also

:17:15. > :17:20.respond immediately to his question. I have seen reports in the press,

:17:21. > :17:23.the Times, they made a report, my Lords, that has not been

:17:24. > :17:27.substantiated to me, I am aware of the fact having been Chief Whip for

:17:28. > :17:31.a period of years as well, it would be highly unusual for any

:17:32. > :17:37.announcement of the Queens speech date to be made as early as this. So

:17:38. > :17:42.there is clearly no decision on that matter but I refer to the important

:17:43. > :17:47.fact he does raise about the Queen's speech and the interaction with the

:17:48. > :17:51.referendum. There is, I am assured, no inhibition on having the Queen's

:17:52. > :17:58.speech during a period of a referendum itself. That I think and

:17:59. > :18:02.I hope underlines the initial answer I gave yesterday, I am sure there is

:18:03. > :18:07.no letter or inhibition on that going ahead. My Lords, of course it

:18:08. > :18:13.is important that people have enough time to properly inform themselves

:18:14. > :18:17.of all the options and to understand the consequences of their votes.

:18:18. > :18:21.Campaigners on both sides of the ard and must have time to set out their

:18:22. > :18:26.cases and have a full and robust debate. We do believe that the 23rd

:18:27. > :18:29.of June is just the right balance. It also meets the practical

:18:30. > :18:34.requirements of the electoral commission. The assessment of

:18:35. > :18:38.readiness published last week notes that the date, "Does not pose any

:18:39. > :18:44.significant risks to a well-run referendum." As well as setting the

:18:45. > :18:48.date, the statutory insurance also establishes the timing for three key

:18:49. > :18:55.stages of the referendum. They are the designation process of the

:18:56. > :18:59.regulated referendum period itself and the pre-poll reporting

:19:00. > :19:02.requirements which this house will report on closely indeed when the

:19:03. > :19:07.referendum act made its passage through this house. The electoral

:19:08. > :19:11.commission's assessment of this endorses the government's approach

:19:12. > :19:15.on each of these areas and notes that the arrangements for a well-run

:19:16. > :19:19.referendum are well advanced. This has been echoed by the joint

:19:20. > :19:23.committee on statutory instruments and by the lordships secondary

:19:24. > :19:27.legislation scrutiny committee. Those have been the instrument,

:19:28. > :19:30.giving it their usual rigorous scrutiny and I am grateful to the

:19:31. > :19:37.members both of those select committees. Those were content with

:19:38. > :19:40.approach being proposed. It is the means the electro- commission

:19:41. > :19:46.appoints the lead campaigners on one or both sides. We have followed the

:19:47. > :19:51.political parties, and referendums act in allowing a total of six

:19:52. > :19:56.weeks, the application window for campaigners will be opened for four

:19:57. > :20:01.weeks from the 4th of March, worthy house to agree later today the

:20:02. > :20:06.statutory instrument to be approved. The commission would then have two

:20:07. > :20:09.weeks, on the first to the 14th of April to decide which, if any,

:20:10. > :20:15.applicants to designate. Noble Lords, many of here who took an

:20:16. > :20:19.active part in the passage of the act, many will remember that

:20:20. > :20:23.designated leader campaigners will receive a number of benefits.

:20:24. > :20:30.Including, but higher spending limit of ?7 million. The free delivery of

:20:31. > :20:33.mailings to every household or every elector. And assuming campaigners

:20:34. > :20:41.are designated on both sides, access to a grant of ?600,000 and a

:20:42. > :20:46.campaign broadcast. My Lords, the regulated referendum period allows,

:20:47. > :20:52.follows the designation process thereafter with no overlap of dates.

:20:53. > :20:55.It will then run for ten weeks from the 15th of April. During this

:20:56. > :21:00.period, full financial and campaigning controls will apply, in

:21:01. > :21:04.particular, spending limits for campaigners. I stress this point

:21:05. > :21:08.because of course, this timetable specifically meets the requests made

:21:09. > :21:14.by members of this house during the passage of the referendum act. Lord

:21:15. > :21:20.Willoughby will speak on this point today. My Lords, finally, the

:21:21. > :21:24.statutory instrument sets deadlines for registered campaigners to report

:21:25. > :21:30.any donations all loans to the electoral commission. It is indeed

:21:31. > :21:32.the first time in a UK wide referendum that sources of

:21:33. > :21:39.significant campaign finance will be visible and public before the poll,

:21:40. > :21:43.ensuring real transparency. This process was refined during the

:21:44. > :21:47.passage through this house of the EU referendum act. I must thank in

:21:48. > :21:51.particular the noble Lord, Lord Jay, for leading that debate with his

:21:52. > :21:56.customary eloquence. At the end of this opening speech, I shall move

:21:57. > :22:00.that the statutory instrument should be agreed to but of course, my

:22:01. > :22:05.Lords, the formal view of the house on that matter will be taken at the

:22:06. > :22:11.very end of proceedings tonight. My Lords, time and -- turning to the EU

:22:12. > :22:16.negotiation. The British public made it clear that they were not content

:22:17. > :22:20.with the UK's relationship with Europe. The Prime Minister sought to

:22:21. > :22:26.address that. In November last year, the wrote to the president of the

:22:27. > :22:30.European Council setting out in detail the four areas in which he

:22:31. > :22:37.was seeking to change the EU. To seek change that would be brought

:22:38. > :22:42.forward. These were economic governance, competitiveness,

:22:43. > :22:48.sovereignty and welfare, which has been aligned with migration in the

:22:49. > :22:53.press. The Prime Minister negotiated a deal covering each of these areas

:22:54. > :22:58.and this deal gives the UK a special status within the EU that no

:22:59. > :23:02.arrangement outside the EU could match. It is a good deal for Britain

:23:03. > :23:04.as the Prime Minister has said, it is a deal that gives us the best of

:23:05. > :23:16.both worlds. This agreement is legally binding

:23:17. > :23:19.and reversible cause it can be amended or revoked if every single

:23:20. > :23:25.member state of the EU, including ours in the UK, where to agree

:23:26. > :23:32.unanimously to do so. It commits member states to future treaty

:23:33. > :23:38.change. Last week, it was registered with the United Nations as an

:23:39. > :23:41.international treaty. Taking each of the four issues that the Prime

:23:42. > :23:49.Minister addressed in turn, let me set out briefly what the deal gives

:23:50. > :23:52.us. My Lords, I do appreciate that the noble lord will have had the

:23:53. > :23:56.opportunity to look at the White Paper last week and to have

:23:57. > :24:00.considered other documents being published since then. On economic

:24:01. > :24:05.governance, the re-negotiation secures UK's position inside of the

:24:06. > :24:09.single market but outside of the single currency. It means we have

:24:10. > :24:16.new commitments from the EU, to complete the single market and sign

:24:17. > :24:20.you trade deals. The responsibility for the financial stability of the

:24:21. > :24:25.UK remains in the hands of the Bank of England and other UK authorities.

:24:26. > :24:30.-- new trade deals. We've made sure we will never join Europe, British

:24:31. > :24:34.taxpayers will never be required to bail out the Eurozone. British

:24:35. > :24:37.businesses cannot be discriminated against for not being in the

:24:38. > :24:45.Eurozone. All discussions on matters that affect all EU member states

:24:46. > :24:52.will involve all EU member states including the United Kingdom, not

:24:53. > :24:54.just members. Of Eurozone. My Lords, on competitiveness, every

:24:55. > :24:59.negotiation delivers a new commitment from the European

:25:00. > :25:05.Commission, to review annually the third of regulation on business. If

:25:06. > :25:10.there is too much red tape, with marketers cut. There is a specific

:25:11. > :25:14.focus on relieving the burden on small businesses and for key

:25:15. > :25:20.sectors. The agreement makes clear that the EU will pursue an active

:25:21. > :25:23.and ambitious trade policy. And it must feast is international

:25:24. > :25:30.competitiveness in key areas like energy as the digital single market.

:25:31. > :25:36.My Lords, on sovereignty, we are out on ever closer union, we will never

:25:37. > :25:39.be part of a European superstate, the text of the re-negotiation

:25:40. > :25:45.includes a commitment to change the treaties to exclude the UK from ever

:25:46. > :25:49.closer union at the time of their next

:25:50. > :25:56.-- extradition. We have attained new powers to block unwanted European

:25:57. > :26:01.laws, a legally binding agreement that our Parliament can, acting with

:26:02. > :26:09.some others in Europe, 55% of national parliament's block unwanted

:26:10. > :26:14.EU laws with a red card. A new mechanism will be created to review

:26:15. > :26:19.existing EU laws to ensure compliance with the principles of

:26:20. > :26:23.subsidiarity and proportionality. So that powers can be fought back to

:26:24. > :26:27.member states wherever possible. National parliaments will be

:26:28. > :26:32.involved in this mechanism. And the European Commission will also be

:26:33. > :26:39.required to report every year to the Council on its compliance with these

:26:40. > :26:41.principles. On welfare and migration, and emergency brake will

:26:42. > :26:48.mean people coming to the UK from within the EU will have to wait four

:26:49. > :26:52.years until they have full act as in work benefits. This would take

:26:53. > :26:57.effect when the necessary legislation is passed. European

:26:58. > :27:05.Commission has made clear that Britain already qualifies to deploy

:27:06. > :27:10.that break. Migrants from the EU working in this country will not be

:27:11. > :27:16.able to receive child benefit at UK rates, if their children live in

:27:17. > :27:19.another EU country. My Lords, let's be clear that much has been said

:27:20. > :27:27.elsewhere about the Eagles and is of the deal. -- legal status. This deal

:27:28. > :27:37.is legally finding for EU member states. They all signed up to it in

:27:38. > :27:40.a decision under international law, February European Council

:27:41. > :27:47.conclusions and texts of the deal of grief at the council set this out

:27:48. > :27:51.clearly. They are supported by legal opinions of both Council legal

:27:52. > :28:04.service and Sir Alan- with the -- and Sir Alan Dashwood. It can

:28:05. > :28:08.only be amended or revoked if every single member state including the UK

:28:09. > :28:14.is to agree unanimously. The European Court of justice has held

:28:15. > :28:17.up that decisions of this sort must be taken into consideration as being

:28:18. > :28:23.an instrument for the interpretation of EU treaties.

:28:24. > :28:29.Council president Task has confirmed it, and I quote that the 28 heads of

:28:30. > :28:34.state of government unanimously agreed and adopted a legally binding

:28:35. > :28:39.and reversible settlement for the United Kingdom in the EU -- Tusk.

:28:40. > :28:44.The decision concerning a new settlement is in conformity with the

:28:45. > :28:49.treaties, and cannot be annulled by European court of justice.

:28:50. > :28:54.This new settlement builds on a number of existing protections and

:28:55. > :29:00.opt out which applies to the UK's membership of the EU. This means the

:29:01. > :29:08.UK now has a special status within the EU. Inside those areas of

:29:09. > :29:15.activity, where it is in the UK's interest, but outside those words is

:29:16. > :29:18.not in their interest. I've already mentioned we are not under the

:29:19. > :29:24.standard obligation for member states to join the euro. We will

:29:25. > :29:27.always keep the pound. The UK has remained outside of the Schengen

:29:28. > :29:34.border free area, meaning that we maintain control over our own

:29:35. > :29:37.borders. The UK has opted out of many measures in the Justice and

:29:38. > :29:42.home affairs field, while opting into those that are essential to

:29:43. > :29:49.protect the security of this country. Noble lord is with the

:29:50. > :29:53.aware that today, we laid before Parliament the latest document

:29:54. > :29:57.intended to inform the public ahead of the referendum -- lords. This is

:29:58. > :30:01.the most recent in a series of papers for filling the commitments I

:30:02. > :30:06.make to this house during a passage of the referendum bill before it

:30:07. > :30:09.became the act. There were calls across the house to ensure that

:30:10. > :30:13.voters went into this debate with all of the information that they

:30:14. > :30:17.needed. The government listened carefully and fought forward

:30:18. > :30:21.amendments to the bill in response to all of the positions that forward

:30:22. > :30:30.five years from every single French around the house. -- by peers.

:30:31. > :30:36.It's the best of both worlds, the UK special status and a reformed EU. It

:30:37. > :30:40.fulfils the obligation under section six of the referendum act, requiring

:30:41. > :30:50.the Secretary of State to set out the results of the re-negotiation is

:30:51. > :30:55.and the government's view. My second paper details the process of

:30:56. > :30:58.withdrawing from the EU, but not specifically mandated in

:30:59. > :31:05.legislation, this paper published on Monday, Article 50, meet the

:31:06. > :31:12.commitments that I made to the house on 23rd of November. Today, a third

:31:13. > :31:17.paper was published. It sets out the alternatives to membership of the EU

:31:18. > :31:22.and sets out unequivocally the government's view, that none of the

:31:23. > :31:26.alternative models of association with the EU offer anything like such

:31:27. > :31:30.a good balance of advantages, obligations and influence as we get

:31:31. > :31:37.from our current special status within the EU. My Lords, this paper

:31:38. > :31:43.is the first part of the report that the government will publish to meet

:31:44. > :31:46.the requirements of section seven subsection one of the European

:31:47. > :31:52.referendum act 2015. The second part of the obligation, the second part

:31:53. > :31:55.of the report, which would provide information about the rights and

:31:56. > :32:00.obligations that would arise as a result of the UK's membership with

:32:01. > :32:08.the EU will be made at a later date. My Lords, I hope not too much later.

:32:09. > :32:11.Both parts of the report are available, eventually, on the

:32:12. > :32:17.website, today's is on the website and a copy is in the printed paper

:32:18. > :32:22.office as soon as the second part is available it will go on the website

:32:23. > :32:25.and go to that office. My Lords, the Prime Minister set out last week

:32:26. > :32:33.that the government's clear recommendation that the UK should

:32:34. > :32:36.remain... I am most grateful to my honourable friend, we all appreciate

:32:37. > :32:41.of the careful way in which she shepherded the referendum bill

:32:42. > :32:44.through this house and indeed there was a request for information, does

:32:45. > :32:47.she not recognise that there is a difference between information and

:32:48. > :32:52.propaganda? My Lords and five, the government is leaving propaganda to

:32:53. > :32:57.those who will be fully designate of the campaign. The filling its full

:32:58. > :33:02.requirements under the act as it should do. This will be a once in a

:33:03. > :33:06.generation moment to shape the future of our country and ultimately

:33:07. > :33:09.it will be for the British public to decide, including members of this

:33:10. > :33:16.house, as a result of the drafting of the act is now. The government

:33:17. > :33:20.has made clear its view -- it fell. The government has come in with a

:33:21. > :33:24.clear mandate to really go see it written's place in Europe and put

:33:25. > :33:26.the changes to the people. The Prime Minister has successfully completed

:33:27. > :33:32.the former, the instrument in front of the house today also at the date

:33:33. > :33:35.for the latter. This is the last piece of legislation that will be

:33:36. > :33:41.debated in this chamber to establish the referendum itself. As such, it

:33:42. > :33:48.represents Parliament taking final steps towards a truly is a moment.

:33:49. > :33:53.-- historic. Given the people of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar their

:33:54. > :33:56.say on membership of the EU. The case for holding the poll on the

:33:57. > :34:01.23rd of June is a simple one, it gives time for a proper debate,

:34:02. > :34:07.without delaying and trying the electorate 's patience. My Lords,

:34:08. > :34:13.there's little point in waiting forever. We have a deal. UK's

:34:14. > :34:17.relationship the EU has been changed and improved by that, it is time for

:34:18. > :34:24.the campaign is to make their case, and for the British people to then

:34:25. > :34:29.decide. Settling the issue for generations. My Lords, at this

:34:30. > :34:36.stage, I refer back to comment I made earlier, that I will now

:34:37. > :34:38.formally move with regard to the statutory instrument before the

:34:39. > :34:42.house, that decision will be made later, I make the formal

:34:43. > :34:49.recommendation that launches us on a historic journey was a referendum in

:34:50. > :34:54.which every single member of this house will be able to make their own

:34:55. > :34:59.individual decision. My Lords, I effectively that the house to prove

:35:00. > :35:09.the European Union referendum, data referendum act etc, regulations

:35:10. > :35:16.2016, I effectively. Question is that this motion be agreed to? My

:35:17. > :35:21.Lords, the starting gun has been fired, the noble lady, the minister,

:35:22. > :35:26.has correctly pointed out that this is the beginning of a historic

:35:27. > :35:32.journey for our country. This is about our country's place in the EU,

:35:33. > :35:38.and in the wider world. It is comforting to hear after so many

:35:39. > :35:43.years of sniping and quick as a full-blooded defence of the EU, from

:35:44. > :35:48.many, if not all quarters, of government is not while we pretend

:35:49. > :35:54.not to enjoy the sight of Cabinet members falling out with each other,

:35:55. > :36:00.over this issue, it is worth underlining that the decision on

:36:01. > :36:04.whether we've remain all the fee is too great a decision for us to fall

:36:05. > :36:13.into party political squabbles -- on whether we've remain in the EU. We

:36:14. > :36:18.now have to do all that we can to secure a remain focused, to put

:36:19. > :36:26.country above party, and do what is in the best interests of this

:36:27. > :36:29.nation. My Lords, as the Minister has stated, it sets out the date of

:36:30. > :36:34.the referendum, the start of the reference period, and the date on

:36:35. > :36:39.which designated organisations can apply for recognition. We have

:36:40. > :36:49.debated many of these issues before and we have no objection to the SI.

:36:50. > :36:53.Other documents before us today is the white paper which sets up the

:36:54. > :36:55.agreement that the Prime Minister negotiated in Brussels in

:36:56. > :37:00.mid-February, and a devastatingly factual document produced by the

:37:01. > :37:05.government on the process for withdrawing from the EU. If you want

:37:06. > :37:13.not sure about which way to vote in this EU referendum -- were not sure.

:37:14. > :37:16.I would suggest that you read the document on the withdrawal process,

:37:17. > :37:20.which makes extremely sobering reading on what would happen in the

:37:21. > :37:25.interim period prior to any future relationship with the EU being

:37:26. > :37:32.concluded. A period that could last for a decade, and could set us an

:37:33. > :37:37.extremely difficult situations as a nation. In addition to this, it is

:37:38. > :37:41.worth reading a document that has come

:37:42. > :37:47.But the fact is there are many of us who would have supported the efforts

:37:48. > :37:54.to remain part of the EU irrespective of the negotiation. We

:37:55. > :37:59.believe our relationship with our nearest neighbours must be much more

:38:00. > :38:04.than the four areas set out in that renegotiation. We think our

:38:05. > :38:09.negotiation is fundamental for access to our largest export market,

:38:10. > :38:15.yes is critical for us to ensure safety for our citizens, yes is

:38:16. > :38:20.critical for protecting our workers, consumers and the environment, but

:38:21. > :38:26.more than this it sets how we want this country to meet with the wider

:38:27. > :38:32.world. Never before has our country and our word been so interconnected.

:38:33. > :38:34.Never before have we seen international terrorist threats

:38:35. > :38:39.which confront us all. Never before have we seen worldwide emigration on

:38:40. > :38:49.the scale we have seen today and never before have we been quite so

:38:50. > :38:53.aware that something on the other side of the constants will impact

:38:54. > :39:01.our living here in the UK. Now is not the time just to be turning our

:39:02. > :39:04.backs. Whilst the US is signing partnership deals with Pacific

:39:05. > :39:10.nations is not the time to be retreating into splendid isolation

:39:11. > :39:15.with no assurance of market access. And now when Russia is menacing in

:39:16. > :39:19.the central Europe and the Middle East is an upheaval, now is not the

:39:20. > :39:26.time to be reneging on solidarity and threatening our own national

:39:27. > :39:36.security. Now is the time to show leadership in Europe. Safe in the

:39:37. > :39:46.knowledge that we have strength in numbers. Had he promised a decade

:39:47. > :39:52.supply of the finest Belgian beer, had he guaranteed a place in the

:39:53. > :39:57.European cup final for every UK nation, had he guaranteed lovely

:39:58. > :40:04.sunny days for the next three years, they would still have said no. They

:40:05. > :40:08.believe we need to re-game serenity. But where was our serenity last week

:40:09. > :40:14.-- regain, when the pound plummeted and the market decided this and

:40:15. > :40:18.security was bad for our economy. Where was our serenity when we need

:40:19. > :40:21.to ask Italy to send back one of the London bombers and there was our

:40:22. > :40:27.surrender to and where would it be when we have to go back to our

:40:28. > :40:32.continental colleagues in the events of a no vote and beg for access to

:40:33. > :40:38.their market of 500 consumers and an economy of almost ?11 trillion. I

:40:39. > :40:42.have heard the argument that the EU has a trade surplus with the UK said

:40:43. > :40:48.they will want to trade with us. But this does not take account of the

:40:49. > :40:54.fact that exports to the UK account for 3% of EU GDP whilst our exports

:40:55. > :41:04.to the EU accounts for 14% of our GDP. Only in Cyprus and Ireland does

:41:05. > :41:09.the UK represents more than 10% of total exports. Half of the EU trade

:41:10. > :41:15.surplus with the UK is accounted for by just two member states, Germany

:41:16. > :41:19.and the Netherlands. And yet every single one of the EU member states

:41:20. > :41:24.would have a veto on what that agreement would look like. Can we

:41:25. > :41:27.honestly be confident that they would all be willing to sign on the

:41:28. > :41:34.dotted line in a generous trade deal. The leave campaign seems to

:41:35. > :41:39.have a schizophrenic attitude towards EU member states. On the one

:41:40. > :41:46.hand, they say that the E is constantly ganging up on the UK and

:41:47. > :41:52.that they have no influence, where we to leave they say the member

:41:53. > :42:00.states would rule over -- roll over, allow us to tickle tummies and would

:42:01. > :42:04.accept a new... Serenity in an interconnected world is a fantasy

:42:05. > :42:12.concept. What the outers are offering is a dream ticket. A ticket

:42:13. > :42:16.promising a better life, they have no idea nor common belief in what

:42:17. > :42:20.the dream looks like. Where it may lead, nor can they offer any

:42:21. > :42:28.practical pathway zero route to get to their promised land. Does the

:42:29. > :42:34.Honourable Lady agree that although we have 3 million jobs making things

:42:35. > :42:37.and selling things to clients in the European Union, they have for a half

:42:38. > :42:41.million jobs selling things to us. As she agreed that they need our

:42:42. > :42:47.free trade much more than we need bears and that it will therefore

:42:48. > :42:52.continue? -- bears. The noble Lord clearly wasn't listening, I have

:42:53. > :42:56.just explained that there are other member states, every single one of

:42:57. > :43:01.them, some of who do not have a trade surplus with as food may not

:43:02. > :43:08.sign on the dotted line in terms of a future trade agreement. The fact

:43:09. > :43:14.is 3% of our GDP is dependent on our relationship with the EU was 12%,

:43:15. > :43:22.sorry 12% of our GDP is dependent on the relationship and 3% of bears.

:43:23. > :43:26.They have the upper hand in the terms of negotiating strategy. My

:43:27. > :43:31.lords in light of the that nobody knows which way the public vote, I

:43:32. > :43:35.wonder if the Minister in his summing up could let us know as the

:43:36. > :43:39.Government made any contingency plans in terms of what would happen

:43:40. > :43:46.in the case of UK withdrawal if there were to be a run on the pound?

:43:47. > :43:53.However there are many people in this country who have yet to decide.

:43:54. > :43:57.It is these people we will have too convinced in the next few months in

:43:58. > :44:01.the merit of our arguments. It is these people who I believe the Prime

:44:02. > :44:09.Minister was trying to reach out to in his attempt at renegotiation,

:44:10. > :44:14.they may be relieved that we are not on an inexorable route to close

:44:15. > :44:19.integration. They will be consoled by the guarantee that we have a full

:44:20. > :44:25.say on the rules of the single market whilst remaining outside the

:44:26. > :44:28.euro zone and comforted by the knowledge that EU citizens will have

:44:29. > :44:35.two paper for taking out of welfare system. The negotiations will be

:44:36. > :44:43.legally binding and will take effect immediately after the British people

:44:44. > :44:52.vote to remain. The information which will help our citizens rights

:44:53. > :44:55.and issues, which was requested by noble Lords will be invaluable to

:44:56. > :45:06.this group of people and we look forward to that. My lords the E is

:45:07. > :45:14.far from perfect. Whilst we sit here in our guild clattered centuries-old

:45:15. > :45:19.institution,... I should reassure I have been listening carefully, could

:45:20. > :45:21.she explained what role the World Trade Organisation would have should

:45:22. > :45:33.there be any form of embargo were we to leave? It is not

:45:34. > :45:36.about restriction on trade, the fact is we would have two renegotiate a

:45:37. > :45:43.completely new deal. We have no idea. We still have access to EU

:45:44. > :45:47.markets, 50% of our trade is with the European Union and if we went

:45:48. > :45:53.along with the BTO agreement then we would have to start paying tariffs

:45:54. > :45:57.on our exports. It may be that the noble Lord things that would be a

:45:58. > :46:01.good idea for producers in this country, I believe it would be fatal

:46:02. > :46:13.for many in particular of our small businesses. Can she tell me what

:46:14. > :46:20.does she think workers will lose at the Airbus factory, if their

:46:21. > :46:24.government put a tariff on the engines made by Rolls-Royce, on the

:46:25. > :46:30.wings made by British Aerospace and on the landing gear manufactured by

:46:31. > :46:36.Doughty here, would they refuse to accept those and still expect buyers

:46:37. > :46:43.from overseas to buy an aeroplane with no engine, wings or no landing

:46:44. > :46:48.gear? I am glad he asked me about Airbus because it is a major

:46:49. > :47:02.manufacturing industry in northern Wales. They have assured me that

:47:03. > :47:08.they are very much in favour of retaining their membership of the

:47:09. > :47:14.European Union. The period when of course they could not just reach

:47:15. > :47:18.retrain that facility aboard and I can tell you the French and the

:47:19. > :47:24.Germans would be very happy to receive their ability to build wings

:47:25. > :47:32.on the continents rather than having those built in our country. This is

:47:33. > :47:41.my lords a critical issue, in particular for the 7000 workers in

:47:42. > :47:48.North Wales. My lords the EU is far from perfect, we are sitting here in

:47:49. > :47:54.our guild clattered centuries-old institution, the determining

:47:55. > :48:00.membership and quirky yet endearing expressions. Who are we to be

:48:01. > :48:06.throwing stones at an institution which has had less than 60 years to

:48:07. > :48:10.establish itself. Yes the EU needs reform, not this just one-off reform

:48:11. > :48:16.but a constant reform to adapt to the needs of the requirements of our

:48:17. > :48:25.age as indeed do our own institutions in the UK. We have as a

:48:26. > :48:28.nation a moral and practical interest in preventing conflict. In

:48:29. > :48:33.stopping terrorism and supporting the poorest in the world, stopping

:48:34. > :48:37.climate change but to deal with these points we need our global

:48:38. > :48:43.institutions to function well, to cope with the challenges. We either

:48:44. > :48:48.do this together through bodies like the EU and the UN or we will find to

:48:49. > :48:53.our cost, that our ability to influence these challenges

:48:54. > :49:00.independently will be restricted. How many would hear Britain's voice

:49:01. > :49:05.whispering in the world. The EU also needs the UK. It needs us to be at

:49:06. > :49:09.the top of the table to help reduce the burden on business, to ensure

:49:10. > :49:14.that we fight protectionism and trade dumping. We need the EU, the

:49:15. > :49:21.EU has given us a clear water, clean air, safer food, anti-discrimination

:49:22. > :49:26.laws, maternity and paternity leave, billions invested in our poorest

:49:27. > :49:32.communities, 3 billion a year for our struggling farmers. 3.5 million

:49:33. > :49:36.British jobs depending on our relationship with our nearest

:49:37. > :49:40.neighbour. We have seen caps on bankers bonuses, capping credit and

:49:41. > :49:45.debit card fees, health and safety laws which have saved countless

:49:46. > :49:51.lives, paid holidays and protection for part-time workers. But, we

:49:52. > :49:57.cannot and we should not duck the immigration argument. It is true

:49:58. > :50:02.that immigration does bring pressures to some of our

:50:03. > :50:08.communities, but let us not forget that EU citizens make a net fiscal

:50:09. > :50:11.contribution to this country. They stuff our hospitals, process our

:50:12. > :50:19.food and a central to the hospitality industry, let us remind

:50:20. > :50:22.people that 2 million of our own citizens have taken advantage of the

:50:23. > :50:33.E to make their homes on the continent. -- EU. In DJ some in our

:50:34. > :50:39.chamber. A week and EU which is likely to happen will not be in the

:50:40. > :50:43.interests of this country, lets not forget that whatever else the EU has

:50:44. > :50:51.achieved or not achieved, there has been a peace dividend for over 60

:50:52. > :50:54.years. In what was up until 94 - 95 the bloodiest continent in the

:50:55. > :51:00.world. We should not take peaceful granted. My lords the decision

:51:01. > :51:03.whether we remain or leave the European Union is probably the most

:51:04. > :51:10.important political decision that my generation will ever make. The new

:51:11. > :51:14.agreement has now been set out. Our party be at the forefront of the

:51:15. > :51:18.campaign to ensure that we retain our membership and that we can

:51:19. > :51:20.remain a strong and powerful voice in our challenging and changing

:51:21. > :51:31.world. My lords the Liberal Democrat

:51:32. > :51:34.benches welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has completed his

:51:35. > :51:39.renegotiation with the settlement on the UK's membership of the European

:51:40. > :51:44.Union that allows him to campaign passionately heart and soul, to keep

:51:45. > :51:48.the UK in the European Union. We welcome the fact that this is the

:51:49. > :51:53.position of Her Majesty 's government. Even if it is not the

:51:54. > :51:59.position of all her ministers or indeed all of the former ministers

:52:00. > :52:03.who are sitting in ranks directly opposite me. I should start by

:52:04. > :52:09.thanking the noble lady for accepting amendments during the

:52:10. > :52:11.process of the EU Referendum Bill which to bring forward the reports

:52:12. > :52:20.to renegotiation such as the one today. The best of both worlds. I

:52:21. > :52:25.believe that this came as an amendment by the Lord of John Lee, I

:52:26. > :52:28.am very sorry that he feels it is propaganda and not a factual

:52:29. > :52:32.document that he was looking for. But nevertheless we are grateful

:52:33. > :52:37.that this document has come forward and indeed the other reports that

:52:38. > :52:44.have come out and are promised on the consequences of withdrawal, the

:52:45. > :52:46.process and alternatives to membership in the possible event

:52:47. > :52:52.that the UK leads the European Union. My lords the present report

:52:53. > :52:57.and the European Council conclusions of the 19th of February make clear

:52:58. > :53:02.that the United Kingdom already has a unique position within the

:53:03. > :53:06.European Union. We have a permanent opt out from the year and the

:53:07. > :53:11.Schengen agreement were not part of the Schengen border controls and we

:53:12. > :53:12.have flexibility in the aspects of freedom, security and justice and

:53:13. > :53:21.police and judicial co-operation. We are not signed up to every aspect

:53:22. > :53:24.of the EU, even in current circumstances.

:53:25. > :53:29.The re-negotiation goes further, creating a special relationship for

:53:30. > :53:34.the UK within the EU, which ensures the UK will not be bound by the

:53:35. > :53:38.concept of ever closer union. Not something that, I believe, Liberal

:53:39. > :53:42.Democrats were too hung up on. It's an issue that seems to have affected

:53:43. > :53:46.many people concerned, that European integration would go to far.

:53:47. > :53:53.It has now stopped. The renegotiation provides guarantees

:53:54. > :53:55.for the City of London, banks to a commitment of non-discrimination for

:53:56. > :53:59.non-Eurozone members of the EU. And an emergency brake. Those who wish

:54:00. > :54:05.to leave the EU would do well to consider whether it is realistic to

:54:06. > :54:09.imagine that the 27 would give us such a privileged position if they

:54:10. > :54:17.were on the outside. Certainly, if they simply decided that we know --

:54:18. > :54:20.no longer wanted to be part of the club and withdrew. The evidence

:54:21. > :54:25.suggests that they would not. Her Majesty's government would seek to

:54:26. > :54:31.re-negotiate in the event of a vote to leave on the 23rd of June.

:54:32. > :54:34.Possibly running parallel with article 50, that mechanism, I went

:54:35. > :54:41.say negotiation because we do not get to it -- I won't say negotiation

:54:42. > :54:45.because we do not get to negotiate should we wish to leave.

:54:46. > :54:50.Seeking to exit is an unknown direction. Nobody has tried it to

:54:51. > :54:56.date. It is hard to see how any changes would benefit the UK. I do

:54:57. > :55:01.not wish to engage in project fear, but it is unclear, for example, what

:55:02. > :55:06.would happen to EU nationals resident in the UK. Or, UK nationals

:55:07. > :55:12.such as noble lord Lord Lawson, who we understand lives in France.

:55:13. > :55:19.Should we vote to leave the EU. I don't imagine there would be an

:55:20. > :55:23.immediate move to repatriate UK nationals resident abroad but maybe

:55:24. > :55:30.we don't want to take that risk? More seriously, there are a huge

:55:31. > :55:37.number of unknown surrounding the kind of access that British citizens

:55:38. > :55:41.would have to engage in under the event of a vote to leave. It may be

:55:42. > :55:45.possible to negotiate rights to those already resident or working

:55:46. > :55:52.elsewhere in the EU or have retired elsewhere in the EU. Such access, if

:55:53. > :55:55.it is to be similar to the rights we enjoy today, would undoubtably come

:55:56. > :56:01.with reciprocal rights. We would not simply be able to say that British

:56:02. > :56:05.nationals resident in other EU states could remain, but if we

:56:06. > :56:08.decided that we did not want EU nationals to be resident in the UK,

:56:09. > :56:13.we could somehow send them home. We need to think about that. Those who

:56:14. > :56:18.wish to leave, they are almost certainly correct that our EU

:56:19. > :56:22.partners would not want to sever all ties. I don't believe for a moment

:56:23. > :56:28.that a vote to leave would simply mean that we are on the outside

:56:29. > :56:32.completely separated. That is in the bronze of fancy on the negative

:56:33. > :56:38.side. It would be extraordinarily arrogant to assume that the UK is so

:56:39. > :56:45.important to the EU that we would be accorded all of the rights of full

:56:46. > :56:47.members once we decide to leave but without any responsibilities, to

:56:48. > :56:54.suggest otherwise would be in the realms of deluded fantasy. After

:56:55. > :56:57.all, those states with full access to the market fired the European

:56:58. > :57:02.economic area are required to contribute to the EU budget, abide

:57:03. > :57:07.by the rules, yet they do not have a seat at the table. Pay, oboe, no

:57:08. > :57:21.say, as it was put Brussels recently. -- oh -- obay.

:57:22. > :57:24.We would be expected to contribute financially, and still be bound by

:57:25. > :57:29.the full freedoms. Including the freedoms we seem to like for the

:57:30. > :57:34.movement of goods and capital and services -- obey. The free movement

:57:35. > :57:38.were ambivalent about the free movement of people. The Prime

:57:39. > :57:44.Minister's we negotiation has secured some limits on free movement

:57:45. > :57:53.which would be triggered on the vote remain. It would surely be unwilling

:57:54. > :57:59.to make new alternative special arrangements for the UK after any

:58:00. > :58:07.votes to walk away. I staying in the EU, we can exert influence, without,

:58:08. > :58:17.by leaving, we lose it. Some members of this house would say that this is

:58:18. > :58:21.undemocratic, that somehow the new parliament is lacking. I find this

:58:22. > :58:27.somewhat a strange argument put forward in your Lordships house,

:58:28. > :58:34.where most members, with the exception of hereditary peers, 90 of

:58:35. > :58:40.them, not here on a Democratic mandate. As a member, the UK has a

:58:41. > :58:46.seat at the table. We have many seats at the table, within the

:58:47. > :58:48.European Parliament, the Council of ministers, and the European Council,

:58:49. > :58:52.not to mention a European Commissioner currently drawn as was

:58:53. > :58:57.his predecessor from your Lordships house. We play a full part in

:58:58. > :59:03.decision-making, as a member of the union. There is no conceivable

:59:04. > :59:07.alternative arrangements to membership that would give such

:59:08. > :59:11.influence. The Norwegians would tell you that. Yes, by leaving, we could

:59:12. > :59:18.formally regain sovereignty but at the expense of power and influence,

:59:19. > :59:22.an illusion of sovereignty, as the Prime Minister put it. The idea of

:59:23. > :59:29.regaining control of our borders is nothing but a siren call, the UK is

:59:30. > :59:32.not yet part of the Schengen border regime, we still monitor our own

:59:33. > :59:38.borders. A vote to leave wouldn't alter that, but it would make us

:59:39. > :59:44.less secure as we would be walking away from an effective cross-border

:59:45. > :59:48.corporation on policing, their EU arrest warrant, and the Schengen

:59:49. > :59:53.information system. Errors of co-operation which, at present, show

:59:54. > :59:56.how far the UK has the best of both worlds, access to EU structures

:59:57. > :00:02.where we want them, exemptions where we don't. In conclusion, my lords,

:00:03. > :00:06.it is the view of these Liberal Democrat benches that the UK is

:00:07. > :00:11.better off and more secure remaining in the EU. It is good for the United

:00:12. > :00:14.Kingdom and good for peace and security in the EU. We look forward

:00:15. > :00:24.to campaigning with the Prime Minister for a vote to remain.

:00:25. > :00:27.On the issue of influence in the EU, I know that she is very expert on

:00:28. > :00:34.European matters, could she confirm that in the last 20 years, UK has

:00:35. > :00:40.sought an amendment in the Council of ministers on 72 occasions and

:00:41. > :00:44.been defeated on 72 occasions? My Lords, there are all sorts of

:00:45. > :00:48.statistics one can use, my understanding is yes, there have

:00:49. > :00:52.been formal votes and the UK has been defeated. There are many cases

:00:53. > :00:55.where there is a process of negotiation and votes have not been

:00:56. > :01:01.held, where the UK is able to have influence. We are able to stop

:01:02. > :01:06.legislation that we do not want working with our partners, on the

:01:07. > :01:11.outside, as a country like Norway, we simply accept that anything is

:01:12. > :01:15.brought, or you walk away from that part of the market, we have the

:01:16. > :01:19.opportunity to influence from the inside, but on the outside we lose

:01:20. > :01:25.even that. My Lords, answering the first

:01:26. > :01:30.question in today's order paper, the fixing of the 23rd of June for a

:01:31. > :01:32.referendum, will not, I suspect, troubled the house for long. It

:01:33. > :01:38.really has to be the government's call. Now that this period of

:01:39. > :01:45.negotiation is over, a case for moving to a vote without

:01:46. > :01:48.unnecessarily extending a period of uncertainty and instability, and

:01:49. > :01:54.volatility, which we are already seeing around us, is surely a

:01:55. > :01:57.convincing one. When the Prime Minister's statement was reported in

:01:58. > :02:06.the house last week, I said that I thought the outcome of reforms that

:02:07. > :02:10.he had achieved were substantive and valuable. Having read the

:02:11. > :02:15.government's detailed account of negotiations in his paper, Best of

:02:16. > :02:22.both Worlds, I'm confirmed in that view. That paper, I found clear and

:02:23. > :02:26.compelling. But I am puzzled that some members of the government, the

:02:27. > :02:29.Lord Chancellor in particular, are challenging some of the content of

:02:30. > :02:35.that paper, which was issued in their name. I'm also puzzled that

:02:36. > :02:40.the critics take so little account of the EU's track record in ordering

:02:41. > :02:46.such post stated commitments to treaty change. In both the Danish

:02:47. > :02:49.and Irish cases, the post dated commitments were wrong in the letter

:02:50. > :02:55.and spirit when the treaties were next amended. Nor, where they ever

:02:56. > :03:10.challenged in the interim by the EU Court of Justice. -- were they. I

:03:11. > :03:16.would recall that "Sticking to your deals" is an absolute rule in

:03:17. > :03:22.Brussels. It is sometimes suggested that if the electorate in June votes

:03:23. > :03:26.to leave the EU, we can then return to Brussels and re-negotiate the

:03:27. > :03:33.re-negotiation. Getting better terms for remaining in the EU. Up to last

:03:34. > :03:37.weekend, it seemed to be the view that Pied Piper of Hamlin in our

:03:38. > :03:44.days, the Mayor of London, he seems to have changed his mind, something

:03:45. > :03:49.he does often, and admits the choice in June is a binary one. In or out.

:03:50. > :03:58.That is wise, because that is what it is. The agreement clearly regards

:03:59. > :04:02.a vote to leave, as requiring asked to trigger the provisions of article

:04:03. > :04:08.50, to establish the terms of our withdrawal. There is not evidence

:04:09. > :04:11.that any of the 27 other member states or the commission or the

:04:12. > :04:19.parliament would be prepared to enter negotiations on any other

:04:20. > :04:22.basis. Indeed, the separate agreement specifically says these

:04:23. > :04:29.reforms would be taken off the table if we vote to leave. We are told by

:04:30. > :04:34.leading Eurosceptics that the EU is rushing headlong towards political

:04:35. > :04:39.union, and despite all that has been said in the agreement about ever

:04:40. > :04:45.closer union, we will be dragged along behind them. Again, that is...

:04:46. > :04:50.There is no real evidence for that assertion at all. Quoting Jacques

:04:51. > :04:58.Delors, not held any office, European or otherwise, for 20 years,

:04:59. > :05:01.that is not evidence. The negative reactions to the Brussels deal are

:05:02. > :05:05.those outside of government to hold those views in other member states.

:05:06. > :05:12.It indicates that year and belief that the EU is not now going to be

:05:13. > :05:17.heading into political union -- their view. These fantasies should

:05:18. > :05:23.surely not be part of the serious national debate that we need to

:05:24. > :05:29.engage in. The issue of sovereignty, mentioned this afternoon, whether

:05:30. > :05:35.pulling it or holding it, is in the country's best interests and will be

:05:36. > :05:38.part of their debate. It is not always well addressed. It is not

:05:39. > :05:46.enough to mention the word sovereignty, and expect the traffic

:05:47. > :05:49.to stop. Since the Second World War, successive governments and

:05:50. > :05:55.parliaments have chosen to exercise our sovereignty collectively with

:05:56. > :06:02.others on matters every bit as weighty as the EU. Article five of

:06:03. > :06:06.the Brussels Treaty, which set up Nato, which commits us to respond

:06:07. > :06:10.militarily, conceivably even in a nuclear exchange to any act of

:06:11. > :06:17.aggression against one of its members, is one such commitment.

:06:18. > :06:20.Memberships with the United Nations and international monetary fund, we

:06:21. > :06:24.accept the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of

:06:25. > :06:31.Justice, or the International criminal Court, and of the tribunal

:06:32. > :06:34.of the law of the sea. None of this polling of sovereignty is being

:06:35. > :06:42.contested in the current debate, when it is contested in the EU

:06:43. > :06:47.context, it is reasonable to take account of those other instances and

:06:48. > :06:54.recognise that what we are really discussing is the case for a rules

:06:55. > :06:58.-based international community, in contrast to shifting back into a new

:06:59. > :07:03.world disorder. One thing that makes no sense is any suggestion that the

:07:04. > :07:08.decision in June is not that important. That the outcome does not

:07:09. > :07:13.really matter that much and everything will be much the same the

:07:14. > :07:19.day afterwards as the day before. We are, in all probability, talking

:07:20. > :07:26.about the survival of, or the failure to survive, of two unions,

:07:27. > :07:31.not one. And about an irreversible shift in Britain's role in the world

:07:32. > :07:37.which it would be too late to regret, should the electorate

:07:38. > :07:42.decides to leave the EU. My Lords, I welcome the statuary in

:07:43. > :07:47.Schmidt which clears the way nicely to the referendum. -- instrument. I

:07:48. > :07:51.dislike the way the whole debate has become somewhat personalised.

:07:52. > :07:57.Obviously, with the eager hope of the media. I sure your Lordships I

:07:58. > :08:02.have good friends on both sides of the ultimate and I intend to keep it

:08:03. > :08:04.that way. I hope we can stick as the late Tony Benn used to say, to the

:08:05. > :08:17.issues. First I believe Britain enjoyed the

:08:18. > :08:21.leave at the wrong time or at least leave at the wrong time or at least

:08:22. > :08:24.talking about it. We are discussing getting out on the whole EU is

:08:25. > :08:29.evolving in entirely new direction is driven by major new world forces.

:08:30. > :08:33.A change which seems to have escaped the notice of many of the levers and

:08:34. > :08:41.indeed on both sides of the remain inside as well. Secondly, I greatly

:08:42. > :08:43.admire the tenacity and energy shown by my right honourable friend the

:08:44. > :08:52.Prime Minister over the deal which we are debating. But I do have to

:08:53. > :08:56.say I don't think it will be entirely a major central influence

:08:57. > :09:00.on how people vote in the referendum although it has certainly opened up

:09:01. > :09:04.all sorts of reform ambitions in other member states all around

:09:05. > :09:10.Europe as anyone can see by reading the Continental newspapers. I

:09:11. > :09:14.believe the way people will be influenced and vote will be by one

:09:15. > :09:20.overriding a much deeper issue and that is whether they think that the

:09:21. > :09:25.EU is heading inevitably for an integrated super stated political

:09:26. > :09:30.union centralised and all-powerful Eurocurrency and dragging us into

:09:31. > :09:35.the mangle against our interests in which case we should certainly leave

:09:36. > :09:42.and stand clear whether Europe is in reality evolving by necessity into a

:09:43. > :09:45.new model under outside and global impact both good and bad as we can

:09:46. > :09:50.see in the daily papers which prepare us to become far more

:09:51. > :09:53.flexible and will prepare the EU to become more flexible and much less

:09:54. > :09:59.centralised in which case it would be very unwise not to stay and to

:10:00. > :10:07.help steer the new model into being. My lords my own judgment goes to the

:10:08. > :10:11.latter case and staying on for three main reasons. First the peoples of

:10:12. > :10:15.Europe clearly do not once more integration and uniformity that they

:10:16. > :10:19.have already, whatever their leaders may say. The best of both worlds

:10:20. > :10:26.which we are debating asserts that some countries have chosen the path

:10:27. > :10:30.of deeper integration and I wonder if that is right, which are these

:10:31. > :10:36.other countries except perhaps Luxembourg. Some countries may not

:10:37. > :10:39.want to go back beyond the existing cooperation and I see no popular

:10:40. > :10:44.support whatever throughout Europe for a lots more pushing together,

:10:45. > :10:56.integration, centralisation and more intrusion. Over the last decade or

:10:57. > :10:59.so, new supply chains and new modes of production have been utterly

:11:00. > :11:05.transforming the old European Union model. Even the single market is not

:11:06. > :11:14.what it seemed in the last century. Certainly for services the spy

:11:15. > :11:22.services being 80% of our GDP and at least 40% of earnings as the

:11:23. > :11:25.Government papers remind us. When that is depicted as a dominant and

:11:26. > :11:32.fearsome force ganging up against us, from which we must be sheltered,

:11:33. > :11:38.it is in fact deeply and chronically sick. I see nothing the crisis and

:11:39. > :11:48.division ahead and I am glad the noble Lord, now agrees with me on

:11:49. > :11:51.that. Third my lords, hugely market outside the EU are opening up which

:11:52. > :11:57.are not alternatives to the EU but ones which we must succeed in Asia,

:11:58. > :12:06.Africa and Latin America, that is where the big prizes are. In short

:12:07. > :12:19.my lords, we have two ride both horses. The immediate priority is

:12:20. > :12:23.reform, deep reform. To me the digital age to meet new conditions

:12:24. > :12:30.and not the total transformation of world energy which is now going on.

:12:31. > :12:37.As the paper says repeatedly that work is not over. Indeed it is just

:12:38. > :12:45.beginning. My lords in that work, all our history tells us we can and

:12:46. > :12:49.must play a central part. My lords I want to support what the Prime

:12:50. > :12:55.Minister negotiated in Brussels and I hope that others on both sides of

:12:56. > :13:01.this house would do so. However we got to this point, we have two

:13:02. > :13:07.realise that it is a national fight that we have our fights now and for

:13:08. > :13:13.the country sake we have all of us got to ensure that they have wings.

:13:14. > :13:22.They cannot allow British business and their employees to take such a

:13:23. > :13:29.hit for the sake of political aims and whims of those who simply cannot

:13:30. > :13:38.understand the difference between taking control of our country of

:13:39. > :13:44.exercising... Those who simply cannot understand how yes you can

:13:45. > :13:51.diminish your sovereignty as you enter a transnational treaty or

:13:52. > :14:00.institution but then you get back in return a real increase in your power

:14:01. > :14:10.to affect public policy, big events that all of us face. Be under no

:14:11. > :14:16.illusion my lords the coming referendum presents a profound

:14:17. > :14:26.moments and once the die is cast, a lot of -- there will be no turning

:14:27. > :14:31.back. I cannot believe the European Union for economic and trade

:14:32. > :14:37.purposes can be treated as we are still in it. That is the inescapable

:14:38. > :14:47.fact. Let's be clear what that means. Let's become a bigger version

:14:48. > :14:57.than Norway accepting all the laws and rules, by the way paying quite a

:14:58. > :15:03.healthy sum into the budget with the privilege of doing so, or if we

:15:04. > :15:08.wanted to become some variation of Switzerland which has no power

:15:09. > :15:17.sporting rights for its financial services. Leaving would mean no more

:15:18. > :15:23.unhindered or unfettered to the single market in Europe. Our

:15:24. > :15:30.business and other exporters, it would mean continuing to expect

:15:31. > :15:38.European norms and standards as a condition for the market access that

:15:39. > :15:41.we are granted. It means once the divorce is promulgated after the

:15:42. > :15:51.two-year article 50 process, facing a return to EU tariffs before it is

:15:52. > :15:56.finally negotiated and struck between us. That means we would be

:15:57. > :16:02.paying EU tariffs on our exports and imports which means higher prices in

:16:03. > :16:09.our shops. If the noble Lord wouldn't mind. It would mean losing

:16:10. > :16:12.the preferential trading benefits in foreign

:16:13. > :16:25.until such time and it would be a long time for we were able to

:16:26. > :16:35.renegotiate them. It would potentially mean havoc to raise our

:16:36. > :16:45.own tariffs, it would no longer be covered by WTO compliant agreements

:16:46. > :16:52.is. I am not going to... Is this my time or the local zero is time that

:16:53. > :17:02.he's eating into? I'm most grateful. Could I ask him he has talked about

:17:03. > :17:07.access to the market and the cost as he sees it but if this is so

:17:08. > :17:13.catastrophic we explain how invisible trade in goods, the United

:17:14. > :17:18.States without being part of the single market has managed to sell

:17:19. > :17:22.considerably more than we have two the market and even in terms of

:17:23. > :17:30.services, the United States sells over 200 early in dollars worth the

:17:31. > :17:34.year. I'm not just talking about invisible services but British

:17:35. > :17:39.exports and British jobs and what we would be paying in addition to get

:17:40. > :17:54.our goods and all that we contribute to supply, I'm not going to dwell on

:17:55. > :18:00.the implications of leaving. Anyone freed from the so-called

:18:01. > :18:04.protectionist shackles of Brussels that we could somehow be around

:18:05. > :18:12.bagging major new free-trade agreements. Like a low hanging fruit

:18:13. > :18:19.really does need a reality check. This is not the 1970s which was when

:18:20. > :18:27.Britain last attempted an international free trade agreement.

:18:28. > :18:34.We have no people and no negotiating capacity left in Whitehall, we have

:18:35. > :18:42.to rebuild from scratch and more to the point there are not the

:18:43. > :18:52.countries queueing up to negotiate like us. We are a mid-sized, mature

:18:53. > :18:57.and ready open at advanced Western economy, what others are seeking

:18:58. > :19:07.trade agreements with, they arrive at large blocks of countries or the

:19:08. > :19:10.larger younger faster growing, relatively closed economy with a lot

:19:11. > :19:15.more to bargain into an negotiate than we have to offer and that is

:19:16. > :19:22.the reality of international trade and we have to grasp it. Let me

:19:23. > :19:32.finish if I make my lords. By going to my original point. About what the

:19:33. > :19:38.Prime Minister 's has said in Brussels. This package is not

:19:39. > :19:43.everything but nor is it nothing. In particular the renegotiation, the

:19:44. > :19:50.package missing members of the public with doubts, people are

:19:51. > :20:01.genuinely sceptical minds, that they can support UK membership again. The

:20:02. > :20:10.EU's talk with an ever closer union is not a provision driving

:20:11. > :20:21.continuous integration of EU nationals to unconditional and

:20:22. > :20:27.immediate and appropriate as an single currency in Europe which we

:20:28. > :20:30.should neither join nor should our businesses suffer any discrimination

:20:31. > :20:37.from as a result of being outside it. My lords this is not the end of

:20:38. > :20:45.reform in Europe, it is a start, reform is a process and it is not an

:20:46. > :20:48.event. This package is in effect a bridge, which is a bridge that

:20:49. > :20:56.people with genuine doubts can walk back across to support the European

:20:57. > :21:03.Union in good faith. And I hope they would do so on June the 23rd. My

:21:04. > :21:11.lords it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord and may I say

:21:12. > :21:14.in particular when he said Europe is at last changing and as a last

:21:15. > :21:19.feeling the impetus of external events which cause the reform. It is

:21:20. > :21:24.at such a bad time, especially when we have friends like Germany who can

:21:25. > :21:28.help is reform and change Europe in the direction he spoke about and

:21:29. > :21:37.that I would strongly support. Where is I don't think my memory is false

:21:38. > :21:40.were I to hearing Mr Michael Gove hearing in the context of the

:21:41. > :21:44.Scottish referendum saying to the people of Scotland, we accept of

:21:45. > :21:47.course you are a nation, we accept you have sovereignty but we believe

:21:48. > :21:53.your sovereignty is best exercised when pulled with that of the United

:21:54. > :21:58.Kingdom in Scotland's interest. There you have it, that is the

:21:59. > :22:01.argument quite so. It strikes me as that having articulated that and

:22:02. > :22:06.realise that fact that he then makes the conclusion that what is good for

:22:07. > :22:11.Scotland is not good for the United Kingdom within the European Union.

:22:12. > :22:15.The case for getting out seems to me to rest on a strangely old-fashioned

:22:16. > :22:19.view of sovereignty, almost Victorian, the days of the budget

:22:20. > :22:23.and dicey when all power rested in the nation state. This is no longer

:22:24. > :22:27.true, I suspect there is more power resting on the global stage today

:22:28. > :22:31.that affects the lives of ordinary citizens than is rested and vested

:22:32. > :22:36.in the institutions of the nation states like ourselves. The question

:22:37. > :22:42.is how do you deal with that? The truth of it is that there was a day

:22:43. > :22:45.when you could avoid politics from -- policies from domestic and

:22:46. > :22:51.foreign, you can no longer do that. There is no domestic issue which has

:22:52. > :22:59.a foreign quotation, not jobs, not the environment and not terrorism,

:23:00. > :23:03.crime, not indeed the creation of systems of security when we pool our

:23:04. > :23:07.sovereignty. We pool our sovereignty from the days of Nato, there is no

:23:08. > :23:11.sovereignty estate has which is more important than this top 20 to defend

:23:12. > :23:14.itself. You will find it entirely in the national interest to pull it

:23:15. > :23:19.with others, to give ourselves protection.

:23:20. > :23:28.The reality is, how do you deal with global forces? Alone, singularly,

:23:29. > :23:32.unilaterally, or in the concert of your friends with who you share

:23:33. > :23:36.interests? It is the latter of the two. There are those who argue that

:23:37. > :23:41.we can set up trade deals with other people taking a long time, ten

:23:42. > :23:45.years, it has not got there yet. It would take a long time to set a

:23:46. > :23:51.trader with say, China. How does that help tackle crime on our

:23:52. > :23:56.streets when it is a European problem, best tackled with the

:23:57. > :24:00.European arrest warrant, on a European basis? How do we create a

:24:01. > :24:04.clean environment for the people in this country, when pollution is no

:24:05. > :24:10.respect of borders, it is the deals with our partners that a liberal

:24:11. > :24:13.what we want for our citizens. I'm a passionate European, I find

:24:14. > :24:19.something attractive to the idea that puts the end to a war of 1000

:24:20. > :24:23.years with the slaughter of countless millions of our young by

:24:24. > :24:26.bringing us together. I'm a passionate European because I

:24:27. > :24:31.remembered in Bosnia when I was trying to build peace after war, it

:24:32. > :24:35.was the institutions of the European Union that gave me more assistance

:24:36. > :24:41.in creating those institutions of the state, a legal institution, with

:24:42. > :24:46.intelligence services, the EU was a massive soft power that helps to

:24:47. > :24:50.build, acting together, helping create peace after conflict. There

:24:51. > :24:55.is no better but I'm much more passionate European for another

:24:56. > :24:59.reason, there is nothing I want to see delivered for the people of

:25:00. > :25:02.Britain that cannot bear to be delivered by acting in partnership

:25:03. > :25:10.with our European Union partners than by acting alone. Nothing. We

:25:11. > :25:12.can tackle crime better through the European arrest warrant,

:25:13. > :25:17.environmental cleanliness that we need, we can do it on a European

:25:18. > :25:20.basis, we create better security and can tackle refugees better too.

:25:21. > :25:25.People look at this and say it is the refugee issue that is persuading

:25:26. > :25:29.us not to vote for Europe, this is madness, it's not a new problem but

:25:30. > :25:33.an old problem that goes back over 1000 years. The vast patronage of

:25:34. > :25:40.peoples, better dealt with on a regional basis than on a singular

:25:41. > :25:44.one -- passage. If you think it is a new problem, it isn't, but it won't

:25:45. > :25:51.stop at this. This is now going to be one of the great strategic issues

:25:52. > :25:54.of our times, pestilence played by the bubble of global warming, the

:25:55. > :25:58.mass passage of people. Only by working together can we do that, if

:25:59. > :26:05.we were to withdraw, the primary stays right, the probability is that

:26:06. > :26:09.sank that would turn up at Dover. I recognise the European Union is not

:26:10. > :26:13.dealing with it very well but it is hypocritical of us. We've not taken

:26:14. > :26:19.a single one of those miserable, desperate people, travelling across

:26:20. > :26:23.the muddy roads of the Balkans to get to us. We've not provided

:26:24. > :26:26.assistance to one of them. For us to do nothing to solve this problem,

:26:27. > :26:32.and criticise Europe that it cannot deal with a million in a short time,

:26:33. > :26:36.it won't be easy or elegant, but they will get there in time.

:26:37. > :26:40.One we have this as a major strategic issue for us in future, it

:26:41. > :26:45.is working regionally, together, that we can solve that. I went not

:26:46. > :26:48.long ago to Kuala Lumpur, the nations are coming together to sort

:26:49. > :26:54.out the problems of massive movement of people out of the flooding Ganges

:26:55. > :26:59.delta. My Lords, this is the thing I genuinely don't understand, do we

:27:00. > :27:04.not understand how much the terms of trade of our existence have old

:27:05. > :27:09.these last ten or 15 or 20 years? We no longer have a United States

:27:10. > :27:16.looking east across the Atlantic, it looks west across the Pacific. The

:27:17. > :27:19.US won't act as our friend in all circumstances, our defender, they

:27:20. > :27:24.have new interests and they don't necessarily coincide with ours. On

:27:25. > :27:26.our eastern borders, we have a Russian president of aggressively

:27:27. > :27:31.trying to destabilise and divide Europe. Vladimir Putin would be

:27:32. > :27:37.voting for us to leave, that is what he wants us to happen -- wants to

:27:38. > :27:41.see happen. It's been a Russian policy for ages, we will essentially

:27:42. > :27:47.be assisting him. On the south-east, we have the Arab world in flames. To

:27:48. > :27:52.the south, in turbulence reaching right down into Africa. All around,

:27:53. > :27:57.new economic powers growing up, individually more powerful than any

:27:58. > :28:01.individuality of EU nations, we believe that this is the time for us

:28:02. > :28:05.to abandon our solidarity with European neighbours in such a

:28:06. > :28:11.turbulent and dangerous world. This is the time for us to adopt the

:28:12. > :28:16.elusive sovereignty of a cork bobbing around behind other people's

:28:17. > :28:20.ocean liners. That is the way to serve the worst interests of the

:28:21. > :28:27.country. We will diminish our influence, our protection and

:28:28. > :28:31.capacity for success. My Lords, I have to confess that I

:28:32. > :28:35.was rather surprised when I came in to find that I was in such an

:28:36. > :28:43.exalted position, on the speakers lists. Now, I have to follow that

:28:44. > :28:52.impassioned speech. I'm in some difficulty. But, I'll try my best.

:28:53. > :28:56.The first thing I would like to say, I would say this to voters, when the

:28:57. > :29:07.political parties are agreeing... Beware. Beware, beware, beware. I

:29:08. > :29:12.would also say to the government, that referring to the title of this

:29:13. > :29:18.debate, that those who always wish to get the best of both worlds very

:29:19. > :29:31.often get the worst of both worlds. Because, they've been too greedy. I

:29:32. > :29:35.would like to turn to the statutory instrument arranging the referendum

:29:36. > :29:43.for the 23rd of June. I would have thought that the government, bearing

:29:44. > :29:49.in mind that the referendum need not take place until the end of next

:29:50. > :29:57.year, that they would have taken more time in the negotiations to get

:29:58. > :30:04.a better deal than what they have got. And of course they would have

:30:05. > :30:09.had the advantage of asking the Tory party at their conference in October

:30:10. > :30:15.whether they agreed with what they had brought back from the

:30:16. > :30:22.negotiation. I have to declare myself straightaway, I always do. I

:30:23. > :30:29.was against joining the EU see, or common market, in 1973. -- EEC, and

:30:30. > :30:34.I continue to believe that the now EU, which has gained so much

:30:35. > :30:40.additional power in policy fields, other than trade, I'm even more

:30:41. > :30:47.convinced that we should leave it and leave it as soon as possible.

:30:48. > :30:56.And have the power in this country to decide our fate and future. I

:30:57. > :31:04.would like to say to those people who say that the direction of the

:31:05. > :31:11.year is not towards integration and remind them that the beginning of

:31:12. > :31:19.this month, the six original members of what was then the EEC are, in

:31:20. > :31:25.fact, proposing that the Eurozone should become a fiscal power, and

:31:26. > :31:31.have power in military matters as well. So, the direction in actual

:31:32. > :31:41.fact is not backwards but forwards, as they say, to a more integrated

:31:42. > :31:53.Europe. I cannot help feeling that the Prime Minister made a demeaning

:31:54. > :32:00.spectacle when he went to Europe, he did not demand but plead with them

:32:01. > :32:04.to get some concessions which would enable him to recommend that Britain

:32:05. > :32:15.should remain in the EU. I am afraid that he has not come back with

:32:16. > :32:20.anything at all, of that sort. Indeed, the concessions are pitiful.

:32:21. > :32:33.In fact, they are virtually as pitiful as the concessions brought

:32:34. > :32:40.back in 1972 - 73, or was it 74? By Harold Wilson when in actual fact

:32:41. > :32:46.the concessions turned out to be no concessions at all. He also promised

:32:47. > :32:51.that there would be no economic monetary union. He gave that

:32:52. > :32:56.assurance. We know what happened to that assurance. Now, the Prime

:32:57. > :33:07.Minister is assuring the country that we would never join the euro.

:33:08. > :33:12.He cannot make that promise. The Parliamentary situation and Rangers

:33:13. > :33:19.that, no Parliament, as he knows, can combine its successor --

:33:20. > :33:23.arranges that. There is no agreement, national or otherwise,

:33:24. > :33:27.that can hold the constitutional position so that he is promising

:33:28. > :33:36.something that he cannot properly deliver. I frankly and sick and

:33:37. > :33:48.tired of being told by politicians, self-serving multinationals that

:33:49. > :33:56.Britain must remain in the EU, not only for Britain's sake, but their

:33:57. > :34:01.sakes. Now, we have two arrange our affairs to suit the rest of the

:34:02. > :34:04.world, not our own country. I would remind the government that they are

:34:05. > :34:13.here to serve the British interests, not the interests of those people.

:34:14. > :34:22.Britain has survived and thrived for 1000 years. As an independent

:34:23. > :34:31.country. Even in the face of hostility, from European counties,

:34:32. > :34:44.it could do so free of the into this -- into those of the EU. What we

:34:45. > :34:48.need is a country governed for itself, Britain governing for

:34:49. > :34:53.itself, by its own institutions which have been with us for the last

:34:54. > :35:00.1000 years, and been with us successfully.

:35:01. > :35:04.My Lords, it is easy to be swayed in 1's opinions by powerful speeches in

:35:05. > :35:09.their Lordships house. When I listened to the noble Lord of

:35:10. > :35:14.Swindon, I feel a burning desire to stay within the EU. To be fair on

:35:15. > :35:17.him, when I listened to Lord Mandelson halfway through his

:35:18. > :35:27.speech, I felt an immediate urge to leave. My Lords, it's a while since

:35:28. > :35:32.I last spoke on the EU debate in 1975, I thought it was about time

:35:33. > :35:39.that I tried again! A lot has happened since then, we had the

:35:40. > :35:44.single European act, one must not forget the one political party who

:35:45. > :35:52.campaigned to leave the EU by 1993 led by Michael foot, the Labour

:35:53. > :35:57.Party. I'm slightly Eurosceptic, it's difficult not to be. The euro

:35:58. > :36:02.is a failed concept, Schengen is collapsing, the machine is neither

:36:03. > :36:06.representative or responsive to those it represents. We know the

:36:07. > :36:11.commission 's accounts have not been signed off by auditors for many

:36:12. > :36:16.years. Despite that, we have benefited by being a member of the

:36:17. > :36:20.EU. However, we must not exaggerate its successors. It is not the that

:36:21. > :36:25.has prevented European laws but Nato who kept us safe. Of course my

:36:26. > :36:29.Lords, we can survive easily outside the EU will secure borders and new

:36:30. > :36:36.trade agreements, however long it may take to accomplish. Having said

:36:37. > :36:39.that, following recent success for negotiations, I believe we can also

:36:40. > :36:47.have a better continued future within the EU, within a reformed EU.

:36:48. > :36:50.It isn't an easy process, I found when recently touring European

:36:51. > :36:55.capitals and speaking to their politicians but they all wanted us

:36:56. > :36:58.to stay in the EU. They claim that without us it might collapse, and

:36:59. > :37:07.other countries might leave. Yet those same politicians fought tooth

:37:08. > :37:15.and nail against every change, and centres, when the promised tried to

:37:16. > :37:19.adjust the terms. The European civil servants, the Eurocrats, they seemed

:37:20. > :37:23.accommodating and reasonable in the process. Lined up against the Prime

:37:24. > :37:29.Minister we are formidable opponents. The Prime Minister

:37:30. > :37:32.succeeded way beyond expectations in his negotiations, I've nothing but

:37:33. > :37:36.admiration for how he achieved the outcome. As someone who has known

:37:37. > :37:41.the Prime Minister probably longer and better than anyone else in this

:37:42. > :37:43.chamber, I've never doubted his ability, toughness and

:37:44. > :37:50.determination, and the intellectual rigour that he to these

:37:51. > :37:52.negotiations. The agreements are a substantial change to our

:37:53. > :37:57.relationship with the EU. I think it is fair that we should, I should

:37:58. > :38:01.anyway, ask the minister a couple of questions. Should there be a

:38:02. > :38:05.successful stay in referendum, what would happen if the European

:38:06. > :38:09.Parliament rejected some important elements of the deal, as we know

:38:10. > :38:13.European MEPs cannot be forced to vote one way or the other. The

:38:14. > :38:18.Attorney General has said the European Court has to take the

:38:19. > :38:22.treaty changes into account, and the agreement is legally binding. I'm no

:38:23. > :38:28.lawyer, I look forward to my noble friend explaining to me the European

:38:29. > :38:32.Court has been expansionist in its remit in the past, what happens if

:38:33. > :38:37.it hurt a part or portion of the agreement and rejected it?

:38:38. > :38:45.The other issue the noble Baroness did not mention is that the

:38:46. > :38:52.Government at one point floated the idea of the European Supreme Court

:38:53. > :39:01.to act as a constitutional long stop. I wonder whether this is still

:39:02. > :39:09.a proposal and if my noble friend could tell me how it would work.

:39:10. > :39:13.That is something that can adapt in the ever-changing world. We cannot

:39:14. > :39:17.allow this agreement to be the end of the process of reform. There is

:39:18. > :39:21.no right or wrong in these decisions. There are compelling

:39:22. > :39:26.arguments to both sides but weighing all of the argument is, I will be

:39:27. > :39:29.voting in the referendum to stay. I believe our Prime Minister has made

:39:30. > :39:39.considerable progress and is the best person to lead forward in the

:39:40. > :39:44.reform. This has been a pretty gripping debate so far, and it has

:39:45. > :39:50.only just started. So gripping that I have made all of these scrolls on

:39:51. > :39:56.my notes and have completely ruined them even though I have taken the

:39:57. > :40:03.trouble to type out my speech. I am too a passionate pro-European, but

:40:04. > :40:17.I'm an academic and I would put it in a rather more muted way than Lord

:40:18. > :40:22.Ashdown. As my Lord said this is the most interdependent world by far in

:40:23. > :40:28.which anyone has ever lived. That interdependence might have expanded

:40:29. > :40:33.the global market and an emerging system of global law. It is fuelled

:40:34. > :40:38.development in some of the poorest parts of the world. At the same time

:40:39. > :40:44.large-scale tensions and conflicts have been generated to. Some of them

:40:45. > :40:51.are dangerous and are concentrated in the neighbourhood. Wide range and

:40:52. > :41:02.collaboration to separate benefits from risks. The EU has an essential

:41:03. > :41:06.role to play here as is emphasised. I only wish the opportunity had been

:41:07. > :41:19.taken to question some of the nostrums of those who would have

:41:20. > :41:23.Britain quit. They routinely asserts, the only flexibility and

:41:24. > :41:33.progress as though this were some sort of unquestioned truths. Yet it

:41:34. > :41:43.is obvious it is reducing bureaucracy than the reverse. About

:41:44. > :41:47.the protocols that have to be stuck to, imagine what would happen if 28

:41:48. > :41:55.states had to agree individual trade deals with one another and in a

:41:56. > :41:59.rolling fashion. As the report makes clear, effective European security

:42:00. > :42:05.depends upon cross-border collaboration, the problem with the

:42:06. > :42:11.refugee crisis today is that such effective collaboration between

:42:12. > :42:15.states rather than an excess of it. In this case the knock-on

:42:16. > :42:23.consequences could be very serious indeed. To me it is a terrifying

:42:24. > :42:32.example in fact. When consensus breaks down, ... Primarily through

:42:33. > :42:42.self-interest. A favourite adage of many Eurosceptics at the end of the

:42:43. > :42:45.day is small is beautiful. I enjoyed my honourable friend speech which

:42:46. > :42:53.was a very most one and I think he has been a very eloquent interpreter

:42:54. > :42:58.of this position. Freed from the shackles of the EU, the UK as it

:42:59. > :43:12.were can float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Gaily picking up

:43:13. > :43:17.trade deals. Try telling that to negotiators to putting TT IP in

:43:18. > :43:23.place. The biggest free deal and trade deal ever implemented should

:43:24. > :43:33.it be finalised. The US has made it clear that Britain acting in

:43:34. > :43:38.isolation would have no chance. Size my Lord still council stop the EU

:43:39. > :43:45.hold 60% of global trade compared with 14% for China and 10% for the

:43:46. > :43:49.US. The US, China and India have all made it clear that they want the UK

:43:50. > :43:55.to stay in the European Union. Britain exerts much influence in the

:43:56. > :44:01.world given it is a country of 60 million in a world of 7 billion. But

:44:02. > :44:06.it does so in large part through collaboration and an attempt to

:44:07. > :44:19.force common rules within the EU itself in Nato and in the UN. The

:44:20. > :44:22.wood magically allowed the UK to store tight control over

:44:23. > :44:25.immigration, Switzerland is not a member of the union and has

:44:26. > :44:30.negotiated a deal which allows access to a single market as Britain

:44:31. > :44:37.would also have to do. To do so the country had to negotiate new ones

:44:38. > :44:42.with the European Union. Yet Switzerland has a far higher ratio

:44:43. > :44:52.of influence than the UK does. Over twice the proportion in fact. My

:44:53. > :44:57.Lords since I messed up my speech I cut it short, the natural impulse is

:44:58. > :45:07.to revert to traditional battle lines. There are many aspects of the

:45:08. > :45:13.approach taken which could be questioned. Keeping Britain a full

:45:14. > :45:17.and influential member is key to the country's future, I hope all of us

:45:18. > :45:21.who share such ideas will work together on a cross-party basis

:45:22. > :45:30.setting aside political differences to achieve this end. My Lords in

:45:31. > :45:36.well over 40 years as a member of one house or another, I have never

:45:37. > :45:42.before known search a blatant campaign leaked document not a least

:45:43. > :45:46.one which is so economic with the truth masqueraded as a government

:45:47. > :45:54.white paper. The title itself I have to say is a lie. The best of both

:45:55. > :46:00.worlds, the United Kingdom's special status in a reformed European Union.

:46:01. > :46:04.My Lords the European Union has manifestly not been reformed. And

:46:05. > :46:10.such is the nature of the beast is certainly an reformed. Britain's

:46:11. > :46:15.so-called special status may well should we remain in the European

:46:16. > :46:30.Union proved to be not the best but the worst of both worlds. Those of

:46:31. > :46:38.us who wish to leave I have to say, is... Lands that question. The

:46:39. > :46:43.alternative is not being a member. It may come to a great shock as the

:46:44. > :46:49.Europeans in our midst that most of the world including the

:46:50. > :46:54.fastest-growing trees growing in the world are not in the European Union.

:46:55. > :47:00.-- growing countries. Responsibility for the conduct of economics in this

:47:01. > :47:06.country, I have little doubt that we would prosper more if we were not a

:47:07. > :47:10.member of the European Union. As for the content of the white paper,

:47:11. > :47:17.there is one significant omission, it fails to mention the single most

:47:18. > :47:22.important feature of the agreement of the 19th of February, namely the

:47:23. > :47:28.declaration that, I quote, member states not participating in the

:47:29. > :47:31.deepening of the economic monetary union will not create obstacles to

:47:32. > :47:40.but facilitate such further deepening. And quote. Thus at a

:47:41. > :47:43.stroke we have given our ability to veto further transfers of powers

:47:44. > :47:50.from the United Kingdom to the European Union should we remain,

:47:51. > :48:00.that they believe are necessary for further economic integration. Not so

:48:01. > :48:03.much white paper as white flag. Moreover it undermines the claim on

:48:04. > :48:06.the paper that more powers cannot be transferred from the United Kingdom

:48:07. > :48:12.to the European Union without the United Kingdom agreeing. What then

:48:13. > :48:18.of the exit mechanism in the welcome event of the referendum being one

:48:19. > :48:23.with levers. There is much talk of having to invoke article 50 of the

:48:24. > :48:34.Lisbon Treaty and the process taking up to ten years or more. This is

:48:35. > :48:38.bolder-. -- this is balderdash. The 1975 referendum would have been a

:48:39. > :48:47.fraud since the Lisbon Treaty dates back to 2007. Article 50 refers to

:48:48. > :48:50.the EU putt recommended procedure for negotiating the relationship of

:48:51. > :48:56.a member that has left with its surviving European Union. The Prime

:48:57. > :49:02.Minister is frequently pointed out that Parliament is sovereign and we

:49:03. > :49:09.can at any time leave the European Union by repealing the 1972 European

:49:10. > :49:14.communities act. Which makes UK law subordinate. Indeed article 50 of

:49:15. > :49:21.the Lisbon Treaty itself state that and I quote, any member state

:49:22. > :49:26.deciding the withdrawal in accordance with its own

:49:27. > :49:31.constitutional requirements". And in the case of the United Kingdom, our

:49:32. > :49:41.only one is the repeal of the 1972 act. My Lords, among the many

:49:42. > :49:44.grossly misleading scare -- misleading scare stories peddled by

:49:45. > :49:49.the Government whose only argument is project fear, nothing positive at

:49:50. > :49:52.all, is that we'll have two renegotiate all of our trade

:49:53. > :49:57.agreements with countries outside of the European Union. The plain truth

:49:58. > :50:03.is that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. The great bulk of our

:50:04. > :50:13.trade with the rest of the world have been regulated by the WTO and

:50:14. > :50:23.would remain wholly unchanged. As for the Aga and that you need to be

:50:24. > :50:27.a member that 60% of British exports, 60% are covered by the free

:50:28. > :50:36.trade agreement. Ashman as for the agreement. 60% are on our behalf.

:50:37. > :50:44.The great majority of the agreements we are part two with the WTO were

:50:45. > :50:49.concluded before 95 when at that time when the European union was not

:50:50. > :50:54.even a member of the WTO all gats. As for the argument that you need to

:50:55. > :51:00.be a member of the so-called single market to trade is nonsense. Indeed

:51:01. > :51:06.exports into the single market from countries outside have for many

:51:07. > :51:15.years not been growing faster than UK exports. After all, the weighted

:51:16. > :51:21.average of the European Union's growth is any 3.6%. The prospect of

:51:22. > :51:23.not being able to secure a far better trade agreement the little

:51:24. > :51:37.Switzerland is Switzerland. That is its nature. The uncertainty

:51:38. > :51:42.surrounding Britain's future, should roost site to stay -- should we

:51:43. > :51:47.decide to stay is far more important than getting freedom. The route to

:51:48. > :51:53.belittle freedom is what it is all about, that is the purpose. That

:51:54. > :51:58.will continue. Even though we have secured lockdown for political

:51:59. > :52:04.union, we remain shackled to it, a sort of colonial status. This

:52:05. > :52:11.referendum is not primarily about economic. It is about whether we in

:52:12. > :52:16.this country decide to take control of our affairs whether we decide to

:52:17. > :52:26.be a self-governing democracy and one with a global European

:52:27. > :52:32.perspective. Could I press him to spell out what the alternative is,

:52:33. > :52:38.he is the chairman of one of the leading organisations and always

:52:39. > :52:42.raises the laugh, we have heard the privilege of hearing it but what

:52:43. > :52:50.does that freedom or out consist of? What deal would he conclude?

:52:51. > :52:51.Contrary to the protestations, Britain has benefited from lower

:52:52. > :52:53.prices.