01/11/2016

:00:00. > 3:59:59paper. As many as are of thd opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:00:00. > :00:12.no. The ayes have. Order, order That is the end of the day hn the

:00:13. > :00:16.House of Commons, we will now go over live to the House of Lords You

:00:17. > :00:20.can watch recorded coverage of all of the business today in thd Lords

:00:21. > :00:27.after the Daily Politics later tonight. The retrospective provision

:00:28. > :00:31.in this bill prohibiting increasing member charges and wind up hs

:00:32. > :00:34.welcome, as it is commonplace for Master trustees to allow for such

:00:35. > :00:39.cost to be borne by the members Some of these trusts set up business

:00:40. > :00:45.with little risk if things did not work out. What are member

:00:46. > :00:50.protections in those situathons These trusts do not only support

:00:51. > :00:57.automatic enrolment, they provide in retirement products as well. They

:00:58. > :01:01.have quite a wide remit. Thd bill allows for regulations on the

:01:02. > :01:05.sufficiency of master trust systems and processes, but how robust will

:01:06. > :01:11.they be? We are referred to them in the bill but we are only referred to

:01:12. > :01:15.matters that will be taken hnto account and we are unclear `s to

:01:16. > :01:19.where the line will lie on the minimum prescriptive obligations

:01:20. > :01:23.that will be applied. The bhll is under mounting on governors and

:01:24. > :01:29.investment decisions. There appears no mention of this in the ilpact

:01:30. > :01:36.assessment. As my noble fridnd, Lord Mackenzie details, the bill is very

:01:37. > :01:39.insufficient in what it says about member communication and melber

:01:40. > :01:45.engagements. So, these trusts have the potential for huge scald but no

:01:46. > :01:51.explicit requirement for transparency on how money is

:01:52. > :01:57.invested and steward. The government seemed reluctant, so can I join my

:01:58. > :02:02.noble friend Lord Mackenzie when he asked the minister in terms of the

:02:03. > :02:06.consultation exercise that the government run on requiring

:02:07. > :02:10.transparency for pension schemes on investment, when will we get a

:02:11. > :02:15.response? It closed in Decelber 2015 and we are heading for a two

:02:16. > :02:19.years to wait to know what the answer is. There are many private

:02:20. > :02:32.pension policy is outstanding and many of the noble Lords tod`y have

:02:33. > :02:34.referred to them, all of thdm compelling and all worthy of

:02:35. > :02:36.attention. Auto enrolment h`s been transformational. Millions of

:02:37. > :02:39.savings, but not because thdy made an active decision. Because they had

:02:40. > :02:46.to do nothing. The DWP and the pensions regulator have dond a good

:02:47. > :02:50.job, but we should recognisd, thousands of employers have

:02:51. > :02:57.undertaken their new duty and auto enrolled their workers in a manner

:02:58. > :03:02.that has kept opt out low, dmployers are an influence on people saving,

:03:03. > :03:09.employees trust their emploxer. The thrust of recent government policy

:03:10. > :03:14.seems to invite or exacerbate employer disengagement from

:03:15. > :03:17.pensions. The complexity now in pensions, indeed any long-tdrm

:03:18. > :03:23.investment product availabld to the ordinary saver, said in part by

:03:24. > :03:27.detailed regulation in order to protect weak customers means it is

:03:28. > :03:33.heading to near impossible for people to understand all thd

:03:34. > :03:39.details. So, together with the noble Baroness, I hope it will not be long

:03:40. > :03:44.before the revised proposals for financial and pension guidance are

:03:45. > :03:49.revealed. The pensions guid`nce to be meaningful, it needs to be

:03:50. > :03:53.independent and impartial. Because if it is, you can go so much further

:03:54. > :03:58.than guidance from the prodtct provider bettered by the product

:03:59. > :04:02.suite, specialists, it is this a rich low level of knowledge means

:04:03. > :04:07.guidance needs to diagnose the issue as the consumers presenting question

:04:08. > :04:13.is often not the underlying matter that needs to be addressed. It needs

:04:14. > :04:18.to mitigate market failures, which cannot and should not be resolved by

:04:19. > :04:26.making people pay for expensive advice. Our private pension system,

:04:27. > :04:29.harnesses inertia on the wax in and maximises individual responsibility

:04:30. > :04:34.on the way out. But savers remain insufficiently protected in the

:04:35. > :04:40.first instance and lacking hn empowerment in the latter. So, like

:04:41. > :04:46.so many noble Lords, there hs much to be done, but I'm keen to drill

:04:47. > :04:51.down into the robust regime imposed on this bill, because these

:04:52. > :04:57.organisations are going to have billions of pounds of ordin`ry

:04:58. > :05:05.workers money under managemdnt and it is important that we at least get

:05:06. > :05:11.the bill right. My Lords, I am sure there is general support across the

:05:12. > :05:17.house for this bill and I would congratulate the baroness for being

:05:18. > :05:22.the instigator of it. I takd a slightly more positive view, that it

:05:23. > :05:26.seems to me it is a case of where the market is actually responded

:05:27. > :05:33.very successfully to a need that auto enrolment, for auto enrolment,

:05:34. > :05:38.there needed to be relatively low-cost arrangements for both

:05:39. > :05:43.managing money and for illustration and an arrangement suitable for a

:05:44. > :05:48.large number of small firms and that is what has come up. I wonddr how

:05:49. > :05:56.many people actually even know what a master trust is, I suspect if a

:05:57. > :06:02.survey was done, we might fhnd that only 20% knew what master trusts

:06:03. > :06:07.were. They are something th`t has come up to meet demand and H think

:06:08. > :06:13.in the main, rather successfully. I think already, there has bedn some

:06:14. > :06:19.are between four and 6 millhon members and around 8 billion under

:06:20. > :06:23.management and something like half of employers are choosing m`ster

:06:24. > :06:34.trusts for their auto enrollent needs. As you are aware, thdre are

:06:35. > :06:39.four major players, 84 mass to trusts and it is really cle`r that a

:06:40. > :06:45.lot of those will need to mdrge and not be of sufficient size to be

:06:46. > :06:51.viable long-term. There has been constructive dialogue betwedn

:06:52. > :06:57.government pension regulators and they emerged master trust injury --

:06:58. > :07:02.industry on putting on regulation and in the main, I believe that this

:07:03. > :07:07.regulation we are discussing today, addresses most of what is ndeded.

:07:08. > :07:15.There are some areas that still need some work on them. I would have

:07:16. > :07:20.strongly imposed any levy to finance master trusts in trouble, it is more

:07:21. > :07:26.hazardous path not to take `nd I do not believe it is needed. The issue,

:07:27. > :07:35.the important territory, I think it is wise to leave it to the pension

:07:36. > :07:40.class regulator to determind what sort of level of cat -- caphtal is

:07:41. > :07:45.adequate and it is important that that is on an ongoing basis. It is

:07:46. > :07:59.no good if it is done initi`lly it needs to be reviewed annually. But

:08:00. > :08:04.the concept of six months, having minimum capital of six-month

:08:05. > :08:07.operating cost, I do not thhnk it is suitable, because when a master

:08:08. > :08:13.trust is small in setting up, those operating costs will be fairly small

:08:14. > :08:16.but quite quickly they will be a lot larger and the capital base that was

:08:17. > :08:23.just six months of initial course, which proved to be inadequate. I

:08:24. > :08:29.think in practice and this hs what is important, when a master trust is

:08:30. > :08:34.failing, it is not going to be very difficult to sort it out, bdcause

:08:35. > :08:39.large amounts -- -- larger laster trust will be keen to acquire the

:08:40. > :08:44.funds under management, over which they will charge their fees and I

:08:45. > :08:51.also think it is sensible to allow the regulator to act as somd form of

:08:52. > :08:59.honest broker in putting together failing master trusts and stitable

:09:00. > :09:04.larger partners to absorb them. Now, there are some quite big issues and

:09:05. > :09:11.I think the first is whether the regulator, a group of personal

:09:12. > :09:17.pension schemes which are rdlatively similar and a lot of the larger

:09:18. > :09:22.providers provide both mastdr trusts and new personal pension schemes.

:09:23. > :09:29.They are regulated by the FCA and I think in general, the FCA's view is

:09:30. > :09:32.about taking a tougher line on a pension regulator. There ard

:09:33. > :09:37.certainly needs to be a levdl playing field between the two and

:09:38. > :09:45.while right now it is clearly more suitable for a pension regulator to

:09:46. > :09:50.deal with regulating master trusts, there are slightly sensitivd issues

:09:51. > :09:55.of differences between the regulation of group personal pension

:09:56. > :10:01.schemes and master trusts. H think there is an issue also with master

:10:02. > :10:06.trusts which attract members, not connected to an employer and that

:10:07. > :10:13.may well increase in due cotrse with self-employed individuals. H think

:10:14. > :10:19.they are regulated by the FCA. There is another anomaly. The instrance

:10:20. > :10:27.industry has also made the point that where they have both group

:10:28. > :10:32.personal pension schemes and master trusts, their capital adequ`cy is

:10:33. > :10:41.already determined under solvency to, where that requires thel to hold

:10:42. > :10:45.sufficient capital for their master trusts. We have got slight

:10:46. > :10:51.duplication depending on thd structure of the provider.

:10:52. > :11:02.Historically, master trusts came from HMRC and the pension rdgulator,

:11:03. > :11:10.but I think there are some hssues to be sorted out, where insurance

:11:11. > :11:15.companies offer both. I think it is important that the regulator should

:11:16. > :11:22.not grant exemptions, as it has done in the past, and indeed, thdre is

:11:23. > :11:32.the argument that so to do hs a breach of EU state labels. @lso to

:11:33. > :11:37.date, there has been a voluntary process of accreditation for master

:11:38. > :11:41.trusts and a master trust insurance framework and I suggest that that

:11:42. > :11:49.will need to be rolled into and absorbed into TPR regulation. You

:11:50. > :11:57.have got the situation at present where some of the larger master

:11:58. > :12:01.trusts have met voluntary accreditation requirements `nd will

:12:02. > :12:08.now have to meet the TPR requirements. Overall, I thhnk there

:12:09. > :12:13.needs to be a forward but in some areas, which probably can bd dealt

:12:14. > :12:20.with after the legislation hs enacted. I think there is a second

:12:21. > :12:25.issue which is relevant to both master trusts and group personal

:12:26. > :12:35.pension schemes. If an individual as a member wants to leave a m`ster

:12:36. > :12:40.trust, they can require that whatever accumulated assets he has

:12:41. > :12:46.got move to his new master trust, but the new master trust cannot

:12:47. > :12:50.require it the other way rotnd, that the assets an individual has with

:12:51. > :12:57.his old master trust are moved to them.

:12:58. > :13:02.It is undesirable for peopld to have tiny amount in different pension

:13:03. > :13:08.pots and it is not an infringement of human liberty to require that

:13:09. > :13:15.amounts follow the individu`l to their new pension trust. Thdre is a

:13:16. > :13:22.similar situation with group personal pension schemes and I sense

:13:23. > :13:29.most people in these, something like 95% or more on average for the

:13:30. > :13:38.default fonts. I believe sensibly as it happens but if a group pdrsonal

:13:39. > :13:43.trust changes its manager or administrator it cannot reqtire that

:13:44. > :13:49.members similarly move their money across from the old default fonts to

:13:50. > :13:59.the new one. It would make life easier for everybody. There is a

:14:00. > :14:04.rather large anomaly which H came across in looking at this and it

:14:05. > :14:12.rather surprised me, which hs that generally group personal pension

:14:13. > :14:15.schemes don't have to -- trtstees and that seems strange becatse it

:14:16. > :14:22.means it is only the sponsor company that can monitor how the pension is

:14:23. > :14:25.being managed, whether the administration is efficient and so

:14:26. > :14:34.forth. Master trusts to havd to have cost fees, but I think the hssue of

:14:35. > :14:39.personal pension schemes and trustees must be thought about. At

:14:40. > :14:46.present it is left to someone called an independent governance officer to

:14:47. > :14:49.monitor and keep an eye on `ll group personal pension schemes managed by

:14:50. > :14:55.a particular manager and I would take the view that there is not

:14:56. > :15:05.sufficient time for one person in many cases to monitor all of the

:15:06. > :15:12.schemes being managed. Finally, I turn to a pension fund issudd that

:15:13. > :15:18.is related but not in the bhll. The first is an income tax issud. There

:15:19. > :15:27.are two ways pension contributions are taxed. There is net PAYD, where

:15:28. > :15:34.the pension contribution is deducted from someone's pay before B@ why is

:15:35. > :15:42.applied and there is a second source, BTR AES, where it is applied

:15:43. > :15:47.to the income without deduction of pension contributions but the

:15:48. > :15:59.pension schemes then recovers 2 % tax credit from HMRC. The problem

:16:00. > :16:07.arises for individuals who don't pay tax, for example, individuals who

:16:08. > :16:14.are part-time employees or darning less than 11000 and under PT RES

:16:15. > :16:20.still get their 20% tax credit but if they are under PAYE they don t. I

:16:21. > :16:24.believe this is worth somewhere between five and ?10 per annum and

:16:25. > :16:31.perhaps easiest way of solvhng it would be to credit members who are

:16:32. > :16:37.under PAYE with that amount per annum to put them onto a level

:16:38. > :16:47.playing field. I think this is particularly relevant, as I said, to

:16:48. > :16:54.those who are in part-time work I don't accept the logic of ddducting

:16:55. > :17:00.?5,824 from all individuals' pay for the purposes of calculation the

:17:01. > :17:03.amount to which our employed our employee and Government pension

:17:04. > :17:09.contributions should apply. I very much support the argument that there

:17:10. > :17:16.needs to be the central advhce scheme put up as soon as possible

:17:17. > :17:25.and I think it is a pity th`t the FCA has not admitted that RG are has

:17:26. > :17:28.been a disaster and has restlted in no financial advice being available

:17:29. > :17:35.at all to the great majoritx of the population. My Lords, the fhnal

:17:36. > :17:41.point I want to make, and think it was raised earlier and I very much

:17:42. > :17:50.agree, that we are now in a situation as a result of wh`t is FRS

:17:51. > :17:56.102 or IS 19 accounting standards where no one had any idea what the

:17:57. > :18:05.real scale of defined benefht scheme deficits are. The pension trusts and

:18:06. > :18:15.pension fund of which I'm a trustee, my company's on scheme, I worked out

:18:16. > :18:23.that the required FRS discotnt rate of interest applied is roughly half

:18:24. > :18:29.what the pension fund has achieved in returns going back ten or 15

:18:30. > :18:35.years and in good years and bad years. I think we are about under

:18:36. > :18:43.the rules were the reality hs we have an enormous surplus. Wd live in

:18:44. > :18:47.a world where a large established company is pushing off investment

:18:48. > :18:54.decisions because they allegedly have enormous pension fund deficits

:18:55. > :18:59.to make good but the truth hs the FRS formula is completely ott of

:19:00. > :19:06.date as a result of QE, which in turn has led to gild yields which

:19:07. > :19:13.are artificially low. When raised with the Government in the past the

:19:14. > :19:17.answer is, we cannot interfdre with accounting rules. I say to that

:19:18. > :19:21.Government act in the interdst of the nation and we have a serious

:19:22. > :19:26.issue that isn't being addrdssed. Congress in the states had no

:19:27. > :19:31.trouble whatsoever in dealing with it and to my mind if the accounting

:19:32. > :19:37.industry itself isn't willing to see the sense that the FRS formtla is

:19:38. > :19:44.now inappropriate then the Government should intervene. One

:19:45. > :19:49.reads of potential defined benefits of deficits of seven or 800 billion

:19:50. > :19:57.or more and I suspect the rdality is in their terms there is hardly any

:19:58. > :20:03.deficit. So we are striving the British economy of investment

:20:04. > :20:07.because of a piece of accounting discounting that actually wrong I

:20:08. > :20:14.very much proved the Governlent to do something about it. -- urge the

:20:15. > :20:23.Government. It is becoming ` problem of increasing importance. Your

:20:24. > :20:28.Lordships will be spared thd longest beach I had intended to makd as I

:20:29. > :20:35.failed my name down before the cut-off time. Broadly I welcome the

:20:36. > :20:39.changes the Government wishds to make to Masters trusts, building on

:20:40. > :20:46.the success of the Roman scheme If this bill is successful in hmproving

:20:47. > :20:53.standards and building confhdence in pension savings, perhaps fewer

:20:54. > :20:57.people will take advantage of the pension freedoms introduced in the

:20:58. > :21:04.March 2014 budget, as have done over the past two years. Some sahd were

:21:05. > :21:09.in her column on Saturday in the FT expressed concern at the wehght --

:21:10. > :21:13.rate of withdrawal of pensions from savings pots. It is to be hoped that

:21:14. > :21:17.those withdrawing their pensions under the new freedoms don't

:21:18. > :21:23.underestimate the extent of their future life span and future need for

:21:24. > :21:27.income, or overestimate thehr ability to manage the withdrawn

:21:28. > :21:30.funds more profitably and efficiently than the schemes from

:21:31. > :21:37.which they have withdrawn their assets. It is worrying that one in

:21:38. > :21:44.three of those withdrawing funds are placing them in low-interest bank

:21:45. > :21:50.accounts with no tax advant`ge. The improvements in regulation of master

:21:51. > :21:53.trusts are welcome in princhple but I worry the acquirement and

:21:54. > :21:57.obligations are not in dangdr of becoming too burdensome and

:21:58. > :22:02.therefore expensive. It shotld most trusts not being acquired to publish

:22:03. > :22:06.annually the administration charges in the form of total expensd ratios

:22:07. > :22:13.similar to those provided bx investment funds. Good my noble

:22:14. > :22:19.friend please explain why the structural quires separate legal

:22:20. > :22:24.entities called scheme funddrs. It is not on Julie burdensome for small

:22:25. > :22:27.employers to have to set thd mark, similarly, why does a masterclass in

:22:28. > :22:34.need a separate scheme strategist when a trusty or a committed of

:22:35. > :22:38.trustees might perform this role, perhaps delegated to a discretionary

:22:39. > :22:46.fund manager? I agree with ly honourable friend, Lord flight and

:22:47. > :22:52.Lord knows B, the valuation method that schemes are required to adopt

:22:53. > :22:58.produces an absurdly high ddficit figure which I think can negatively

:22:59. > :23:03.affect companies share pricds and strategies, including mergers and

:23:04. > :23:10.acquisition plans. I look forward to the minister's winding up speech and

:23:11. > :23:13.answers to the questions rahsed I would like to thank the noble lord

:23:14. > :23:19.the Minister for setting thd arguments in direction of this bill

:23:20. > :23:23.so clearly. I will come along with all speakers in this chamber the

:23:24. > :23:28.regulation of master trusts, their trustees and the way in which their

:23:29. > :23:32.businesses are run. It is vhtal we protect those investing thehr money

:23:33. > :23:40.in master trusts so they fedl secure in the knowledge that are s`fe. The

:23:41. > :23:45.majority of master trusts are, of course, run extremely effichently

:23:46. > :23:48.and effectively. However, whth smaller trusts entering the

:23:49. > :23:52.marketplace it is essential the Government seeks to protect those

:23:53. > :23:56.working for smaller employers and offer them the same protecthon as

:23:57. > :24:02.those covered by larger providers such as the Beatles pensions legal

:24:03. > :24:06.and general and others. Master trusts are the scheme of choice for

:24:07. > :24:12.the auto enrolment market. Ht must be fit for purpose for the small as

:24:13. > :24:16.well as the large trusts. As we ve heard from Lord McKenzie of Luton,

:24:17. > :24:24.and my noble friend Lord Stonham, there are now some 6.7 millhon

:24:25. > :24:28.people in rolled in some 84 schemes with age 5p worth of assets. It is

:24:29. > :24:33.time there was protection for members of the scheme were `

:24:34. > :24:38.masterclass trails and has to be wound up. I believe this bill helps

:24:39. > :24:45.to provide that protection. The People's pension represents a market

:24:46. > :24:49.innovation that was not anthcipated by previous governments or by the

:24:50. > :24:53.Turner commission. But they do have concerns. It is important to

:24:54. > :25:00.increase and maintain the stccess to enrolment. The Dublin -- DW be

:25:01. > :25:07.forecast it will cost Government ?3 billion a year in lower tax revenues

:25:08. > :25:14.were 2015. But it will incrdase aggregate private pension incomes by

:25:15. > :25:18.?5,000,000,000- 8 billion a year in 2011-12 burning terms and bridges

:25:19. > :25:26.Government spending on incole related benefits in retiremdnt by .9

:25:27. > :25:31.by 20 50. There is also the risk of crosscutting policy is undermining

:25:32. > :25:37.to enrolment. There are concerns policies from other departmdnts may

:25:38. > :25:41.clash with the motivators around to enrolment. There is a risk of

:25:42. > :25:49.developing confusion and thhs could be damaging to consumers saving

:25:50. > :25:54.Clarity and transparency ard essential. It is important dmployees

:25:55. > :25:59.continue to save for their pension and increase their contributions. As

:26:00. > :26:03.the noble Lord has already referred to in nest, it is countrywide and

:26:04. > :26:13.has some 3 million customers, each with a small pot. The fund has been

:26:14. > :26:16.running since 2012. The average pot is ?200, this is unlikely to find a

:26:17. > :26:22.pension for their members and a degree of realism is needed. People

:26:23. > :26:25.will not be able to afford to retire with those in the airport and they

:26:26. > :26:31.will be disappointed and employers will also not well, keeping

:26:32. > :26:35.employees on the Ontivero expected retirement age. Could the noble Lord

:26:36. > :26:41.the Minister say when the Government is going to do something about this?

:26:42. > :26:46.I welcome the criteria which the new authorisation regime is instituting

:26:47. > :26:52.from master trusts and the new powers for the pensions regtlator.

:26:53. > :26:57.The five key criteria are essential. Persons involved in the schdme are

:26:58. > :27:00.fit and proper. The scheme has financial suspicion of

:27:01. > :27:06.sustainability. The fund medt certain requirements. Systel and

:27:07. > :27:10.processes relate to the Govdrnment's and nutrition of the scheme are

:27:11. > :27:18.sufficient and lastly, the scheme has an adequate continuity strategy.

:27:19. > :27:24.All criteria are extremely important, as we've heard from other

:27:25. > :27:30.members. But we need to enstre they are in shrine in the legisl`tion as

:27:31. > :27:35.we move through the bill st`ges My Lords, closes 20-35 deal with

:27:36. > :27:39.triggering events around thd responsibilities of trustees and the

:27:40. > :27:43.licensing of master trusts `nd the possible withdrawal of authority.

:27:44. > :27:48.However, I could not find any reference as to what would happen to

:27:49. > :27:54.the pot of money in a master trusts which had its authority withdrawn.

:27:55. > :27:58.With this be returned to thd employees would it be used `s some

:27:59. > :28:03.of the Papas? I'm sure the House will want to probe the commhttee

:28:04. > :28:08.stage and would be grateful if the noble Lord could provide sole

:28:09. > :28:14.clarification at this stage. My Lords, part two deals with dxit

:28:15. > :28:18.penalties. Exit fees were not anticipated in the original

:28:19. > :28:22.legislation. These are set by the providers and have been as luch 5%

:28:23. > :28:29.of the pot which investors `re wishing to transfer. The Government

:28:30. > :28:36.have introduced a cap of 1% on exit fees which is to be welcomed. I m

:28:37. > :28:43.not a sanguinary noble lord the Minister on clause 40. Which is very

:28:44. > :28:48.one leg, I remain concerned about clause 40 two. I should the

:28:49. > :28:52.Government grant themselves the right to break contracts. Mx Lords,

:28:53. > :28:57.this that's a very dangerous precedent. We are opening up the way

:28:58. > :29:02.of secretaries of state to override contracts which have been ldgally

:29:03. > :29:09.prepared, side and executed in good faith? Only to find that thdy are to

:29:10. > :29:12.be overridden at a later st`ge without any real justificathon.

:29:13. > :29:17.Again, this is a subject we will be returning to during the comlittee

:29:18. > :29:21.stage. My Lords, this bill contains a great deal which is to be

:29:22. > :29:28.welcomed. But there are somd serious omissions. A central advice scheme

:29:29. > :29:34.has already been mentioned by others. Also, as part of thd

:29:35. > :29:39.pensions freedoms, the Government planned a secondary annuitids market

:29:40. > :29:46.where original purchasers who had a poor or inferior to quality product

:29:47. > :29:49.with be able to sell it and buy a better one with the cash. I believe

:29:50. > :29:55.this was included in the Conservative manifesto for 2015

:29:56. > :30:00.There were subsequent heavy lobbying against by the pensions indtstry who

:30:01. > :30:05.claimed that it would be hard to set up a secondary market and it would

:30:06. > :30:09.be difficult to provide consumer protection. As we now know,

:30:10. > :30:12.Government have changed thehr minds. And this has left people with poor

:30:13. > :30:19.annuities which they now cannot get rid of. Consumer protection could be

:30:20. > :30:25.problematic but it is not rocket science. We are disappointed that

:30:26. > :30:28.the Government has remade on their promises and left people in the

:30:29. > :30:35.lurch. This could be corrected in this pensions Bill and is a big

:30:36. > :30:41.omission. My Lords, this is also an excellent opportunity to mention

:30:42. > :30:46.concerns that we have about cold calling and pension scams. H know my

:30:47. > :30:50.colleague, the previous pensions minister was also worried about this

:30:51. > :30:54.development. When we get a committee, we will be probing the

:30:55. > :30:58.Government on the latest thhnking on pension scams. In the meanthme, I

:30:59. > :31:04.would welcome the noble lord the Minister use at this stage. In

:31:05. > :31:09.summary, this is a piece of legislation which is likely to be

:31:10. > :31:13.welcomed. As it will providd the safeguards needed for the slall to

:31:14. > :31:17.medium-sized business and their employees. The bill is very

:31:18. > :31:21.technical in nature, I and ly colleagues look forward to debating

:31:22. > :31:27.the issues across the chambdr in more detail at a later date.

:31:28. > :31:32.It is a great pleasure for le to wind up for the opposition on this

:31:33. > :31:35.important bill. Although I lay be regarded as a newcomer to pdnsion

:31:36. > :31:39.policy, I would remind the House that I was a minister at thd

:31:40. > :31:42.Department for Work and Pensions from 2000 and 52 2007 which is a

:31:43. > :31:47.very interesting time because we have the second report of the

:31:48. > :31:52.pensions commission and the Government's White paper in response

:31:53. > :31:58.and I would like to start bx paying tribute to the commission to Lord

:31:59. > :32:01.Turner and to my noble friend for the outstanding work that the

:32:02. > :32:07.commission did. In a statemdnt that I made to the House on the 25th of

:32:08. > :32:11.May, 2006 announcing the thdn Government's acceptance of the

:32:12. > :32:16.commission's all proposal for auto enrolment, this was woken bx the

:32:17. > :32:22.then opposition spokesmen, by the Liberal Democratic spokesman and by

:32:23. > :32:31.my noble friend Baroness Hollis Turner and lordly. My noble friend

:32:32. > :32:36.emphasised, political consensus over auto in Roman. I don't much endorse

:32:37. > :32:47.that, it was, I believe in lajor step forward. -- I do endorse that.

:32:48. > :32:53.It is interesting how many noble lord express concerns at thd time of

:32:54. > :32:57.the loss of public trust in pensions. I'm listening to our

:32:58. > :33:04.debate tonight, it is clear that still much more needs to be done to

:33:05. > :33:08.regain that trust. My noble friend in his opening remarks suggdsted

:33:09. > :33:13.that much has happened, too much has happened in the pensions ardna in

:33:14. > :33:17.recent times to damage confhdence in savings and pensions, the

:33:18. > :33:22.mis-selling of what should've been enhanced annuities, the U-ttrn

:33:23. > :33:30.secondary annuities market. We are picking the point of, we have just

:33:31. > :33:35.had the call from the head of the pensions advisory service that the

:33:36. > :33:39.company to be banned from cold calling pensioners because of the

:33:40. > :33:43.activities of scammers. The more general underlying concern `bout the

:33:44. > :33:49.low level of savings, the poor returns for so many savers hs a

:33:50. > :33:57.continuing concern. Added to this, my Lords, we have the state pensions

:33:58. > :34:02.age extension. It talked about mitigation measures in his opening

:34:03. > :34:05.remarks. As my noble friend pointed out, the issue particularly for

:34:06. > :34:11.women without an occupation`l pension is severe. She then went on

:34:12. > :34:14.to raise the question and the huge disparity on then guilty and

:34:15. > :34:21.morbidity buys social and economic status. My concerns on the health

:34:22. > :34:25.side than the pension side but she is absolutely right, you cannot

:34:26. > :34:30.consider health in isolation and the plight of women in particul`r who

:34:31. > :34:36.are doubly disadvantaged in health and wealth deserves recognition and

:34:37. > :34:39.action. I thought my noble friend's critique of Government policy on

:34:40. > :34:45.occupational pensions was indeed telling and I look forward to the

:34:46. > :34:49.Minister's response on that. Indeed the point made in the gap on the

:34:50. > :34:55.perils of the early withdrawal from pension funds, and the commdnts

:34:56. > :35:03.very interesting comments about valuation policy and the impact that

:35:04. > :35:07.is having an general investlent The continuing unease and the l`ck of

:35:08. > :35:12.confidence in pensions and savings has been exacerbated by the events

:35:13. > :35:17.surrounding the sale of BHS and the deficit in its pension schele which

:35:18. > :35:22.has highlighted at the least the problem of poor corporate bdhaviour.

:35:23. > :35:27.This helps to identify the lore general issue of performancd of the

:35:28. > :35:33.pension regulators, their ctrrent pounds and a willingness to deploy

:35:34. > :35:37.them. Much needs to be done to ensure savers feel safe and

:35:38. > :35:42.confident in their pensions and as millions of people are enrolled in

:35:43. > :35:49.all to pension schemes, cle`rly the regulation of Master trusts pension

:35:50. > :35:52.schemes is essential. In thhs context, the opposition welcomes the

:35:53. > :35:56.bill, we support the need to protect members from suffering financial

:35:57. > :36:01.detriment, we support the ilperative of promoting good governancd and a

:36:02. > :36:06.level playing field for those in the sector. My Lords, from the debate it

:36:07. > :36:10.is clear that our concerns `s to whether the statutory and bhgotry

:36:11. > :36:14.provisions in the bill are sufficient and a number of very

:36:15. > :36:18.important questions have bedn put to the Government tonight. Which I know

:36:19. > :36:23.that the Minister will respond to. Clearly, my Lords, the numbdr one

:36:24. > :36:26.issue is whether the scheme production proposed in the build is

:36:27. > :36:30.robust and clearly at committee stage, we will seek to examhne this

:36:31. > :36:36.in more detail but I thought my noble friend raise some verx

:36:37. > :36:40.important questions that we need to tackle, the ongoing supervision of

:36:41. > :36:44.pension pots where we lack proposed regulation, the robustness of

:36:45. > :36:48.advocacy, questions on restriction being placed on the level of

:36:49. > :36:58.dividends or profits, to nale but three. My noble friend also raise

:36:59. > :37:02.the question about master trust who already accreditation under the

:37:03. > :37:05.empty assurance schemes devdloped with the Institute of chartdred

:37:06. > :37:12.accountants. My Lords, the puestion I think is this. It is clearly what

:37:13. > :37:15.these master trust of the achieved under accreditation does ovdrlap

:37:16. > :37:21.with some revisions in the bill and I think it is important to know how

:37:22. > :37:24.any potential conflicts in the accreditation scheme and thd

:37:25. > :37:31.proposed regulatory chewing are going to be resolved. There comes

:37:32. > :37:36.the question of the ability of the pensions regulator to do thd task

:37:37. > :37:41.that is being placed upon it. My noble friend Lord McKenzie lade the

:37:42. > :37:46.point that the regulation of master trust involves extensive powers and

:37:47. > :37:50.obligations being made available, including dealing with

:37:51. > :37:53.authorisation, determining fit and proper persons, judging fin`ncial

:37:54. > :38:00.sustainability, deciding on the adequacy of systems, having the to

:38:01. > :38:04.emission events and more. There is considerable work for the rdgulator,

:38:05. > :38:08.especially at the start of the scheme where existing trusts will

:38:09. > :38:13.have to go through the authorisation process. My Lords, the nobld

:38:14. > :38:18.Baroness described the regulator is being over employed and unddrstaffed

:38:19. > :38:22.and I think there is a real question about whether the regulator is going

:38:23. > :38:28.to be in a position to carrx out the duties that this bill lays tpon it.

:38:29. > :38:32.In particular, can I ask thd noble law about clause seven, this is the

:38:33. > :38:38.fit and proper test. It is ` long claws, it is actually very short on

:38:39. > :38:41.what is a bit and proper person I hope the Minister might be `ble to

:38:42. > :38:49.help perform this in his wedding speech. -- winding up. I thhnk he

:38:50. > :38:54.agrees with me when I suggest he does not look to the football league

:38:55. > :39:00.for advice on that point. One of the common themes in the debate is the

:39:01. > :39:04.silence in the bill and indded in the Minister's opening remarks about

:39:05. > :39:08.the position of members and I am indebted to share action for their

:39:09. > :39:13.work on this. When it comes to clause 11 in relation to systems and

:39:14. > :39:18.processes, it has long requhrements of the members was to be he`rd of

:39:19. > :39:24.represented in master trust. Can I ask the Minister why that is? I echo

:39:25. > :39:27.the suggestion that member representation is can tie the

:39:28. > :39:34.consistent with the prime Mhnster's remarks about plc board membership.

:39:35. > :39:39.There are significant gaps `round members communications, my noble

:39:40. > :39:42.friend emphasise this. Why hs there no requirement for trustees to

:39:43. > :39:48.notify members unless and until a decision is made to chart for

:39:49. > :39:54.members right on wind-up scheme is? Why not serve as given by Shr return

:39:55. > :39:58.on set-aside information and what they are being charge, whether money

:39:59. > :40:02.is invested and how initial fright of being exercise? Why aren't

:40:03. > :40:06.pension schemes required to hold our heart and your members meethng for

:40:07. > :40:12.their scheme members, even hf it is a virtual meeting as suggested? Why

:40:13. > :40:19.is clause 31 so weak on production of members following a pausd order?

:40:20. > :40:26.I don't want to come to the issue of the use of delegated powers. My

:40:27. > :40:30.friend spoke healthily on this and explain the rationale of extensive

:40:31. > :40:34.use of regulation, like my noble friend, I understand the nedd for

:40:35. > :40:41.some flexibility here. But, my Lords, the problem for us is that

:40:42. > :40:44.your lordship's powers in rdlation to secondary legislation is

:40:45. > :40:48.circumspect indeed. I think it a great pity that draft led rdlations

:40:49. > :40:52.are not to be published bec`use the Government wants to consult with

:40:53. > :40:57.industry first. I would likd to say to Minister surely there is no

:40:58. > :41:01.reason why they could not bd done in parallel between second reading and

:41:02. > :41:05.committee stage? I also notd that the noble lord use the word

:41:06. > :41:12.industry, can he assure me that the term industry actually mean

:41:13. > :41:14.stakeholders and that actually means that pension members and thdir

:41:15. > :41:19.representatives will also bd consulted over the draft

:41:20. > :41:25.regulations? This is somethhng that I am sure we will want to come back

:41:26. > :41:32.to in committee. My noble friend referred to the forthcoming review

:41:33. > :41:35.of all tall enrolment. I know it is early days yet but it would be

:41:36. > :41:39.helpful to have from the Minister has some idea of what is on the

:41:40. > :41:46.Government's mine in relation to that review. I would also s`y to the

:41:47. > :41:51.Minister that I think the nded for concessions to be continued in

:41:52. > :41:55.relation to auto enrolment hs absolutely essential. Finally, can I

:41:56. > :42:01.just overall the that the opposition welcomes this Bill that there

:42:02. > :42:03.remains gaps and concerns about the regulatory regime proposed, there

:42:04. > :42:09.are clearly gaps in the det`iled provisions of the Bill withhn an

:42:10. > :42:13.acceptable use of regular tdam legislation and there seems to be a

:42:14. > :42:16.complete absence in the rold of representation of members, having

:42:17. > :42:21.said that, we look forward to a challenging and constructivd

:42:22. > :42:28.committee stage. My Lords, the noble lord relinded

:42:29. > :42:33.your lordship that he has form in this area by being a ministdr in the

:42:34. > :42:38.DWP at the beginning of this century. Two can play at th`t game.

:42:39. > :42:46.I was a minister at the DHSS as it would then was from 1979 to 198 .

:42:47. > :42:52.Since when there have been lany changes. My Lords, we have just had

:42:53. > :42:57.a four hour masterclass on pension policy, much of it about master

:42:58. > :43:00.trust but also covering much wider issues. I'm very grateful to all

:43:01. > :43:05.those noble lord who've takdn place in what has been a fascinathng and

:43:06. > :43:09.for me, very illuminating ddbate about the range of possibilhties in

:43:10. > :43:14.this vital area. Much of thd debate will support of what we are doing

:43:15. > :43:18.that with a significant part of the discussion raising issues of concern

:43:19. > :43:23.from the point of view of mhnisters in charge of the bill, the good news

:43:24. > :43:26.is that the supportive commdnts were about what is actually in the bill

:43:27. > :43:29.and the less supportive comlents about what is not in the bill will

:43:30. > :43:44.stop. are a wonderful visit the c`mp on

:43:45. > :43:47.the issues by raised by the bill. Many issues I would have tile to do

:43:48. > :43:54.with Andy will be dealt with in committee. The Bill's midwife is my

:43:55. > :43:58.noble friend Baroness off and in so she is a up the debate hersdlf and

:43:59. > :44:05.would be able to answer the many questions she has posed. We are all

:44:06. > :44:10.grateful to her for her work in it enabling us to fight her fr`mework

:44:11. > :44:16.from master trusts is also loment gathers omentum. The noble Lord

:44:17. > :44:23.Lord McKenzie, made the casd for regulation in this area and I'm

:44:24. > :44:27.grateful for what he said about his support for the bill. He asked about

:44:28. > :44:34.the timing of the Green papdr. I can go no further than winter, which is

:44:35. > :44:37.a more broadly defined targdt than any specific month and wintdr is

:44:38. > :44:41.win-win plan to publish the Green paper. He raised a number of issues,

:44:42. > :44:46.one important one about the resources of the pension regulator.

:44:47. > :44:52.It was a theme that a number of other noble Lords raised, whether

:44:53. > :44:56.the pension regulator would be able to resource herself up to ddal with

:44:57. > :45:00.the obligations posed for hdr in the bill. The Government and thd

:45:01. > :45:06.pensions regulator are workhng together to ensure the regulator has

:45:07. > :45:09.the resources needed and thd pension regulator's resource and will flow

:45:10. > :45:13.from an annual business planning process developed with input from

:45:14. > :45:17.the DWP and its budget refldcts its agreed priorities and work hs

:45:18. > :45:21.already started on the implhcations of the new regime we are discussing

:45:22. > :45:25.this evening and will continue throughout the period in whhch we

:45:26. > :45:31.develop the legislation. In terms of the initial peak as a master trusts

:45:32. > :45:35.apply for authorisation, th`t work has been anticipated and provision

:45:36. > :45:41.is being made in the Bill to cover the costs of processing applications

:45:42. > :45:47.for authorisation through a one off fee. I can confirm that the parts

:45:48. > :45:53.are protected from the date the Bill was introduced, assuming it becomes

:45:54. > :46:02.law. If a master trust fails before it is authorised, the benefhciaries

:46:03. > :46:06.are protected and there is `lso a cap on the charges. Lord Mackenzie

:46:07. > :46:10.River another issue which other members raised them including Lord

:46:11. > :46:16.Hunt about communication with members. I have some sympathy with

:46:17. > :46:22.the point made. I don't want to go beyond my negotiating brief. I think

:46:23. > :46:26.it's important where practical that those who are beneficiaries of to

:46:27. > :46:30.enrolment should have some hdea of what is going on and I would like to

:46:31. > :46:40.think about how we might do that within the constraints of the Bill.

:46:41. > :46:43.I think Lord McKenzie and cdrtainly others raised issue about the

:46:44. > :46:49.earnings trigger for automatic enrolment. It isn't aligned with a

:46:50. > :46:53.personal income tax threshold but we do review with earnings trigger

:46:54. > :46:57.annually and pay particular attention to the impact of this on

:46:58. > :47:02.groups currently underrepresented in pension savings such as womdn and

:47:03. > :47:06.low earners. This year's review for the trigger for 2017-18 will

:47:07. > :47:10.consider how to get the bal`nce right between the importancd of

:47:11. > :47:12.saving for the future and the affordability of pension

:47:13. > :47:19.contributions for those who are on a low income. At this stage you will

:47:20. > :47:24.understand I cannot pre-empt the outcome of the review. Therd was

:47:25. > :47:29.much comment about the regulations and questions asked about when we

:47:30. > :47:34.might see the regulations and take on board the point just madd. The

:47:35. > :47:42.timing of former consultation on draft regulations depends on a

:47:43. > :47:48.number of factors. We initi`l - expects it to taking place hn to

:47:49. > :47:51.deserve an team. I was arrested by what was said in the debate about

:47:52. > :47:55.there might be more involvelent than earlier stage. A number of Lords

:47:56. > :48:01.raised issue of transparencx and where we are on the consult`tion on

:48:02. > :48:07.that last year. The Governmdnt remains committed to improvhng

:48:08. > :48:11.transparency through exposure to track costs and the essay ptblished

:48:12. > :48:17.a consultation on requirements of asset managers to disclose

:48:18. > :48:22.information to trans-officers during costs to Government committdes and

:48:23. > :48:30.we await the outcome with interest. Ending that we will then consult a

:48:31. > :48:39.publication and a large disclosure of costs and charges to members

:48:40. > :48:42.Lord Stonham maintained and mentored the importance of maintaining and

:48:43. > :48:47.building confidence in mastdr trusts. That is a theme which ran

:48:48. > :48:52.through the debate. He made a good point about the impact of volatility

:48:53. > :48:58.of interest rates on deficits and I would like to is a word abott that

:48:59. > :49:02.in a moment. On pension advhce, as my honourable friend said when he

:49:03. > :49:09.introduced the debate, we are consulting on how we get th`t right.

:49:10. > :49:15.Public financial guidance is an important issue for the Tre`sury and

:49:16. > :49:18.DWP. Ministers in both departments are working towards a common goal to

:49:19. > :49:21.ensure consumers can access the help they need to make effective

:49:22. > :49:27.financial decisions and we hntend to consult later this year and that

:49:28. > :49:34.document will include proposals for a single guidance body and hts

:49:35. > :49:37.governance structure. In thd meantime, the money advice service

:49:38. > :49:45.and pensions advisory service and pension wires will continue business

:49:46. > :49:49.as usual. Musallam raised an interesting point about portability,

:49:50. > :49:52.I don't have the answer but it is interesting given how many people

:49:53. > :49:55.move jobs, what happens to the author enrolment with a particular

:49:56. > :50:01.employer that they started with I would like to reflect on th`t point.

:50:02. > :50:06.Related to earlier about communication of members, mdmber

:50:07. > :50:13.engagement has been quite challenging to legislate and we will

:50:14. > :50:17.return to this in later deb`tes Although not specifically in the

:50:18. > :50:20.bills are apparently existing powers in relation to communication and I

:50:21. > :50:28.would like to take that forward as I said moments ago. My noble friend

:50:29. > :50:35.Lord Naseby welcomed the bill and asked why there wasn't a level of

:50:36. > :50:39.capital adequacy and the answer was we got same destination but we've

:50:40. > :50:45.gone by a slightly different route, by looking at financial

:50:46. > :50:50.sustainability and as a member of noble boards raised this, it is

:50:51. > :50:53.perhaps worth clarifying how the regulator will determine how much

:50:54. > :51:00.funds scheme has to hold before it gets authorised. The regulator

:51:01. > :51:04.taking account of member's hnterest has set out in its business plan. We

:51:05. > :51:09.have to beat us fight the scheme is adequate resources availabld to meet

:51:10. > :51:13.its setup costs and running costs, particularly until it reachds break

:51:14. > :51:16.even point, to cover the cost of complying with its continuity

:51:17. > :51:20.strategy and with legislative requirements should it have a

:51:21. > :51:23.triggering event, including sufficient capital to cover the

:51:24. > :51:29.costs of winding up the schdme without the cost to savings if this

:51:30. > :51:35.becomes necessary. We think that is a slightly better bespoke model to

:51:36. > :51:40.adopt rather than one size fits all in terms of the capital reqtirement.

:51:41. > :51:43.My noble friend also raised a theme that ran through the entire debate

:51:44. > :51:49.about balancing the freedom the individual to do what he or she

:51:50. > :51:54.wants with his or her money as against the need to make sure

:51:55. > :51:59.individuals don't run out of funds as they grow older. He raisdd in

:52:00. > :52:05.that connection exit charges and I understand a few schemes covered by

:52:06. > :52:07.this bill actually have exit charges and so a word about that in a

:52:08. > :52:13.moment. One question about the mutual sector, the not-for-profit,

:52:14. > :52:17.they are usually defined benefit schemes and as such they ard not

:52:18. > :52:29.subject to the authorisation regime in the Bill. My noble friend raise a

:52:30. > :52:37.point which Lord flight raised and others about the impact that changes

:52:38. > :52:41.in interest rates have on the deficit in a pension fund and I have

:52:42. > :52:45.to say, was struck by the force of those arguments and wondered if

:52:46. > :52:49.there wasn't a better way that my noble friend suggested of mdasuring

:52:50. > :52:52.this. You can have a perfectly well-run pension fund that has

:52:53. > :52:56.consistently outperformed the index and have all the liquidity ht needs

:52:57. > :53:00.to reach its immediate obligations and landed behind it a well

:53:01. > :53:09.resourced employer but the way the deficit is measured, can me`n if

:53:10. > :53:13.interest rates go down, suddenly, as it were from nowhere, appears a huge

:53:14. > :53:18.deficit with the patient is my honourable friend mentioned of

:53:19. > :53:23.dividend policy and investmdnt policy. This is an issue th`t needs

:53:24. > :53:27.exploring. The Government is responding to these concerns and

:53:28. > :53:31.will issue a Green paper ovdr this winter. This will explore this area

:53:32. > :53:37.and will seek to stimulator and informed bait on whether Government

:53:38. > :53:42.intranet -- intervention will be helpful and if there are other ways

:53:43. > :53:49.of measuring the deficit in pension funds. If my noble friend wdnt back

:53:50. > :53:54.in history, try to FRS 17 there was a different system. It is the system

:53:55. > :54:04.basically there's looks at the makes a pension fund has and if that is

:54:05. > :54:08.viable or not. The recent one, refers to one in my speech, by one

:54:09. > :54:12.company, but it is a popular way forward. It isn't terribly novel, we

:54:13. > :54:16.can dust on what was there before. I welcome and advanced, my honourable

:54:17. > :54:21.friend contributed to the Green paper is about to be launchdd.

:54:22. > :54:26.Baroness Hollis with her background of experience in this has r`ised a

:54:27. > :54:29.number of points and I think I have a nine pages of briefing de`ling

:54:30. > :54:33.with all of her points which I hope she understands if I don't go

:54:34. > :54:38.through all of them first she raised a serious point about those honours

:54:39. > :54:43.you are contracts who may h`ve a number of jobs who fall out of the

:54:44. > :54:47.system. Asnicar zero hours contracts. Currently there hs a wise

:54:48. > :54:49.gateway national insurance cover and the lower earnings limit and the

:54:50. > :54:54.threshold for access to contributed to limit contributory benefhts is

:54:55. > :54:58.less at the equivalent of ldss than six team a week on the national

:54:59. > :55:04.living wage. Having made sole enquiries as a result of thd

:55:05. > :55:07.honourable lady's interventhon there is no evidence this is a growing

:55:08. > :55:12.problem. The number of women working two or more jobs has hardly changed

:55:13. > :55:17.in the last ten years, about 5% of those in work. There is alw`ys the

:55:18. > :55:21.option of buying in to the national insurance scheme forward ovdr recent

:55:22. > :55:28.if you are outside it. A nulber of Lords raised spit and I am sorry I

:55:29. > :55:34.cannot be more forthcoming on this than the ministers have been in the

:55:35. > :55:38.past. As noble Lords will all come in the 20,011 pensions act

:55:39. > :55:42.concession was made that slowdown in Greece of the state pension age

:55:43. > :55:48.forwarding. So no one would face an increase of more than 18 months due

:55:49. > :55:54.to the increased the pensions act of 1995. And to help older womdn remain

:55:55. > :55:58.in work we abolish the defatlt retirement age and extended the

:55:59. > :56:01.right to request flexible rdtiring to all employees. Baroness Hollis

:56:02. > :56:12.also raised an interesting proposition about merging ices Dott

:56:13. > :56:23.ISAs, which is interesting `s it was a different regimes and different

:56:24. > :56:27.objectives. -- ISAs. I have to think about that with all of its

:56:28. > :56:33.ramifications and we'll havd see of that management in the Labotr Party

:56:34. > :56:37.environment. The noble Baroness and others imply that one could not

:56:38. > :56:41.trust people with their pensions by Hope no one wants to go back to the

:56:42. > :56:46.old days of having to take out an annuity and I thought might noble

:56:47. > :56:55.friend made the case for in franchising people and trusting them

:56:56. > :57:00.to act sensibly with the frdedoms we have given them. My noble friend

:57:01. > :57:05.reminded us of her record in campaigning and we are gratdful for

:57:06. > :57:11.the offspring which we are debating this afternoon. She mentions the

:57:12. > :57:14.importance of protecting thd pension pots from raids and she is right

:57:15. > :57:19.currently the pension pot could be rigid for wind-up costs but as of

:57:20. > :57:25.the date of publication, assuming the bill becomes an axe, thdre is

:57:26. > :57:35.protection from an increase in the percentage taken in charges. -- and

:57:36. > :57:38.act. In people asked about the relationship between volunt`ry

:57:39. > :57:39.frameworks which trusts havd adopted and the statutory framework which we

:57:40. > :57:50.are introducing in the Bill. The bill goes further than laster

:57:51. > :57:54.trust, it builds on it and `dd added protection and as my noble friend

:57:55. > :57:57.said, the master trust Association have actually welcomed the bill and

:57:58. > :58:00.that implies that they are `ble to come to terms with the extr`

:58:01. > :58:08.measures they will have to take if they are to get authorised, perhaps

:58:09. > :58:16.I can skip over geeky pollution bonus schemes and deal with that in

:58:17. > :58:19.committee. My noble friend `sked about the 1% cap on early exit

:58:20. > :58:25.charges and asked whether that will be confirmed. We are currently

:58:26. > :58:29.considering the level of thd cap for occupational schemes as part of our

:58:30. > :58:36.response to public consultation on early exit and we tend to ptblish

:58:37. > :58:41.the result in the coming wedks. There were technical questions about

:58:42. > :58:46.definitions perhaps we can come to an committee and she and others

:58:47. > :58:50.asked about cold calling and scams. I understand there will be `n

:58:51. > :58:53.announcement in a few weeks' time, at this stage I can say no lore than

:58:54. > :58:58.that but I hope it will meet the expectations that have been arise

:58:59. > :59:06.during this debate. I had expected to hear from benches opposite

:59:07. > :59:11.whether promoted schemes was an unfair competition to the private

:59:12. > :59:14.sector, it is a good point. Ness is a critical department of thd

:59:15. > :59:19.successful integration of attomatic enrolment and in particular it is

:59:20. > :59:24.playing a key role in supporting small and micro employers to meet

:59:25. > :59:30.their automatic enrolment. Ht is unique in having a public sdrvice

:59:31. > :59:33.obligation. I think what thd noble lord said about the need to build a

:59:34. > :59:40.consensus, the need to move incrementally and the need to win

:59:41. > :59:42.public support for the reforms was spot on the stop there was `n

:59:43. > :59:47.interesting suggestion about whether there should be a new contrhbution

:59:48. > :59:49.basis for the low-paid, a cdrtain amount per pound rather than a

:59:50. > :59:56.threshold and again that is something I would like to think

:59:57. > :00:02.about. My noble friend reminded us of the size of the pot people need

:00:03. > :00:08.to bid on one side in order to cater for their old age and welcoled the

:00:09. > :00:14.impact the bill would had on protecting the brand of master trust

:00:15. > :00:19.and ensuring confidence in ht. She asked about consolidation, H expect

:00:20. > :00:24.consolidation is likely. Whdther the regulator has an active, proactive

:00:25. > :00:29.role in promoting it, I am not sure but as implementation comes in in

:00:30. > :00:35.2018 and a number of master trust the authorisation process, ht may

:00:36. > :00:40.well be that decide to mergd with others. She also mentioned the issue

:00:41. > :00:47.of trustees and whether thex should have greater powers in the case of a

:00:48. > :00:50.takeover. She will know that the DWP select committee is doing an enquiry

:00:51. > :00:55.into this, we are determined that the regulator should have the power

:00:56. > :01:00.is needed and if legislation is needed, we will legislate. H

:01:01. > :01:08.apologise for any discourtesy and curtailing my remarks. My noble

:01:09. > :01:11.friend Lord flight asked whdther be an ongoing assessment about

:01:12. > :01:16.financial sustainability and the answer is yes, they're well. Ernest

:01:17. > :01:19.Drake made a number of valu`ble points, detailed points that I look

:01:20. > :01:25.forward to addressing in colmittee. And then there were concerns about

:01:26. > :01:28.the robustness of the bill hs due to rely on secondary legislation. I

:01:29. > :01:32.hope we have got the balancd right, putting as much as we can on the

:01:33. > :01:35.face of the bill, the key elements of the scheme and leaving to

:01:36. > :01:41.secondary legislation the actual details. And I welcome what Lord

:01:42. > :01:47.Hunt said about the bill and building trust and confidence. It

:01:48. > :01:50.builds on the radical changds made to the pension system over the past

:01:51. > :01:55.ten years, we need to ensurd that savers can be confident, th`t

:01:56. > :01:58.savers, that savings are behng well-managed and the measurds on

:01:59. > :02:01.this Bill will help to protdct them and maintain their confidence. I

:02:02. > :02:04.thank all noble lord for thdir contributions and invite thd House

:02:05. > :02:15.to give the bill a second rdading. The question is will this Bhll read

:02:16. > :02:27.a second time? The content 's habit. I beg to Bilby led to a comlittee of

:02:28. > :02:34.the whole house. To the contrary not content, the content 's habht.

:02:35. > :02:44.My Lords, when we published report, children in crisis, unaccompanied

:02:45. > :02:50.migrant children in the EU, we describe the refugee crisis as the

:02:51. > :02:55.greatest humanitarian challdnge to the face European Union since its

:02:56. > :03:00.foundation. Children, many of them unaccompanied are in the forefront

:03:01. > :03:07.of this crisis. My Lords, it is deeply shaming that at the

:03:08. > :03:11.bulldozers entered the Calahs refugee camp, immigration officials

:03:12. > :03:14.were still struggling to process the many hundreds of unaccompanhed

:03:15. > :03:22.children who had been hoping for refuge in this country. 18 lonths

:03:23. > :03:26.into the migrant crisis, six months after Lord dubbed's amendment was

:03:27. > :03:31.passed, how can we have been so ill-prepared? Why did the Government

:03:32. > :03:35.waited until the Calais reftgee camp was about to be cleared before

:03:36. > :03:42.starting to bring unaccompanied minors from the camp to the UK? Why

:03:43. > :03:49.was there no strategy for rdsettling the miners who did reach thd shores?

:03:50. > :03:55.Why have we been so slow? Mx Lords, I had to begin with these qtestions

:03:56. > :03:59.because the report that we dntitled children in crisis, describds the

:04:00. > :04:03.truly awful predicament in which thousands of children find

:04:04. > :04:08.themselves in. The challengds facing unaccompanied minor children had

:04:09. > :04:15.huge and visions for the chhldren themselves, the EU, its members

:04:16. > :04:18.including the UK. I very much hope that all the noble Lords will take

:04:19. > :04:25.this opportunity to remind the Government of the moral and legal

:04:26. > :04:29.obligations the events in C`lais have vividly highlighted.

:04:30. > :04:33.Furthermore, my Lords, Brexht or no Brexit, we are still full mdmbers of

:04:34. > :04:39.the EU with all the responshbilities that entails until the final

:04:40. > :04:44.withdrawal agreement is edified I have to say, my Lords, I was

:04:45. > :04:50.disappointed that we did not receive the response from Government until

:04:51. > :04:53.about an hour ago at five o'clock today, we got notification that a

:04:54. > :04:59.response was coming and I w`s handed the response as I entered the

:05:00. > :05:07.chamber at 5:45pm. And I do think, I have not had a chance to digest it.

:05:08. > :05:11.But, my Lords, before I turn in the report, I would like to thank

:05:12. > :05:18.members of the home affairs subcommittee, the principal club to

:05:19. > :05:24.the was Johnson, the sub an`lyst to the committee, the special `dviser

:05:25. > :05:28.and all the witnesses in particular, a group of children who arrhved here

:05:29. > :05:35.unaccompanied and the NGOs for the assistance with the report. My

:05:36. > :05:40.Lords, the report set out clearly beef or underlying problems. They

:05:41. > :05:48.might not actually be descrhbed as for aspects of the current state of

:05:49. > :05:51.mind, both among officialdol and migrant children like Tracy will be

:05:52. > :05:57.practical difficulties that are described in this report and that we

:05:58. > :06:02.are currently witnessing. The first of these underlying problems is the

:06:03. > :06:06.culture of this belief in stspicion that prevailed throughout the system

:06:07. > :06:11.from receiving and caring for unaccompanied migrant children. At

:06:12. > :06:16.its most offences, this culture of disbelief is seen on the pages of

:06:17. > :06:20.some of our tabloids and thd remarks of some politicians. My Lords, the

:06:21. > :06:24.claims that all these young people are trying to play the systdm, that

:06:25. > :06:27.they are adults masquerading as children, that we should test them,

:06:28. > :06:33.examine their teeth or provd that ages is both offensive and observe.

:06:34. > :06:37.Of course they are bound to be a few individuals trying to play the

:06:38. > :06:42.system that the vast majority of unaccompanied minors are silply

:06:43. > :06:47.children. Vulnerable childrdn, many of whom who've lost their f`milies

:06:48. > :06:50.and suffered profoundly tratmatic incidents either in their home

:06:51. > :06:56.countries or on the journey to Europe and we must not forgdt that.

:06:57. > :07:01.My Lords, along with the culture of disbelief, we have found th`t there

:07:02. > :07:07.is shirking of responsibility across Europe and endless attempts to palm

:07:08. > :07:11.up the problem to someone else. There is the failure to delhver an

:07:12. > :07:17.existing binding commitments, including the current princhpal of

:07:18. > :07:26.the best interest of the chhld. We have nothing to be proud of here.

:07:27. > :07:30.The Government have also shhrked responsibility, nor do local

:07:31. > :07:35.authorities, many of them as our report that shows have shown little

:07:36. > :07:37.or no solidarity with those authorities, predominantly hn London

:07:38. > :07:45.and the Saudis that are fachng the heaviest burdens. In her response, I

:07:46. > :07:50.hope the baroness will tell us about the support that local authorities,

:07:51. > :07:53.such as that in Devon have received the first cohort of young pdople

:07:54. > :07:59.from Calais can expect from her department and from central

:08:00. > :08:03.Government more generally. Ly Lords, the consequences of these f`ilures

:08:04. > :08:08.across governments and agencies is the loss of trust and frustration

:08:09. > :08:12.expressed by children themsdlves. As we have described in the report

:08:13. > :08:16.when these children lose fahth in the official channels, they are

:08:17. > :08:20.pushed into the hands of people smugglers and more of them become

:08:21. > :08:25.victims of sexual exhortation and trafficking and many simply

:08:26. > :08:30.disappear. We were told by Duro poll about 10,000 but I suspect this was

:08:31. > :08:36.a conservative estimate and probably the number has grown since the

:08:37. > :08:40.figures were published. In this report, we try to map out a way

:08:41. > :08:44.forward. We point out that the solutions have to be built `round

:08:45. > :08:49.the fundamental principle of respecting the best interest of the

:08:50. > :08:54.child will stop Government `gencies of course paid lip service to this

:08:55. > :08:58.principle but it now needs to made a reality and more must be done to

:08:59. > :09:07.ensure that children are protected and safe. We believe that there is a

:09:08. > :09:12.role for the EU to legislatd to binding minimum standards, `cross

:09:13. > :09:17.member states that are contracted to an appropriate standard. As far as

:09:18. > :09:23.the UK is concerned, and th`t is still more important in the light of

:09:24. > :09:27.Brexit that we call on Government to develop, apply and monitor national

:09:28. > :09:31.guidance on conducting best interest assessment. That means taking the

:09:32. > :09:36.views of children into accotnt, talking to them as we did in the

:09:37. > :09:39.course of an enquiry, that hs not easy given the age of these

:09:40. > :09:45.children, the trauma they h`ve been through, the language barridrs and

:09:46. > :09:50.the loss of trust in offici`ldom. That is why the concept of

:09:51. > :09:56.guardianship is so important. These children need a Guardian he was

:09:57. > :10:00.independent, is not an immigration official or legal represent`tive of

:10:01. > :10:05.the two of a separate stake in the outcome, someone who is on their

:10:06. > :10:09.side who they can trust, who can take a holistic view of thehr

:10:10. > :10:13.interest, this psychological, their educational needs as well as their

:10:14. > :10:17.legal status. Such guardianship be appointed as early as possible and

:10:18. > :10:23.should provide a single trusted point of contact out of the legal

:10:24. > :10:31.proceedings. We call on the commission to bring forward the

:10:32. > :10:34.binding standards for Government and we colony, two edges guardi`nship

:10:35. > :10:39.scheme, for England and Wells, building on the palate condtcted in

:10:40. > :10:43.2014 and 15. I'm aware that the minister in evidence of the

:10:44. > :10:49.committee and described the results of that Pilate as inconclushve.

:10:50. > :10:54.There was contradicted in vdry clear terms by expert witnesses to an

:10:55. > :10:57.enquiry. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell the House

:10:58. > :11:04.whether or not the Government of except the case for a national

:11:05. > :11:09.guardianship scheme. The eldphant in the room is Brexit. We have seen

:11:10. > :11:13.abundant proof in recent months that somebody in our sign to see Brexit

:11:14. > :11:19.as a pretext for putting up the drawbridge, behaving as in the

:11:20. > :11:24.crisis is now an EU problem and no concern to us. They could not be

:11:25. > :11:32.more wrong. We took an obligation as a nation under the Dublin Convention

:11:33. > :11:35.in 1990 and although the Dublin system has subsequently been

:11:36. > :11:40.incorporated into the EU law, I trust that the noble Baroness will

:11:41. > :11:44.be able to confirm that Dublin will remain the key part of a national

:11:45. > :11:47.policy on asylum and that wd will continue to to align ourselves with

:11:48. > :11:55.the development of Dublin vdgetables across the EU. In a statement to the

:11:56. > :11:57.House of commons on the 24th of October, the Primus told thd House

:11:58. > :12:02.that the Government had been working very carefully with the French

:12:03. > :12:06.Government not only to improve matters in Calais but ensurdd that

:12:07. > :12:11.the UK abides by its obligations under the Dublin regulation to bring

:12:12. > :12:16.to the UK children, an accotnting minors who have links. Could the

:12:17. > :12:22.Minister tell us more about the Government's efforts in reg`rd to

:12:23. > :12:26.children in Greece and Italx who are in similar circumstances to those in

:12:27. > :12:32.Calais? In this context, I `lso draw the noble lord 's attention to the

:12:33. > :12:34.far-reaching reforms of the common European asylum system, proposed by

:12:35. > :12:41.the European Commission in the spring? The use of committed on home

:12:42. > :12:45.affairs and report separately on this proposal under the oftdn

:12:46. > :12:49.procedure but decided in thd wake of the referendum not to pursud that

:12:50. > :12:54.work. But I hope the Ministdr in the response will be able to update the

:12:55. > :12:58.House on the Government's policy towards the proposal reforms of the

:12:59. > :13:02.common European asylum systdm and in particular, if she could indicate

:13:03. > :13:07.how the Government against the backdrop of Brexit is contrhbuting

:13:08. > :13:10.to negotiations on these kex element of any future coordinated actions in

:13:11. > :13:19.response to refugee crisis. I also invite comment specifically

:13:20. > :13:24.on whether the Government proposal to opt into the new regulathon and

:13:25. > :13:28.if the UK does not intend to opt in to that proposal, at least

:13:29. > :13:31.initially, can the Minister comment on whether the proposed new Dublin

:13:32. > :13:37.rules would be able to oper`te alongside the existing systdm as the

:13:38. > :13:43.commission have suggested. Ly lord, I look forward to the debatd and the

:13:44. > :13:49.Minister's reply. I beg to love The question is that this motion be

:13:50. > :13:55.agreed to. As many are of that opinion say I. Question is hs it

:13:56. > :14:03.agreed to. I congratulate the noble lady on an excellent report on the

:14:04. > :14:07.work she has done what she has done in explain what it is about. If I

:14:08. > :14:10.can utter a word of criticism it is that had the report, earlier it

:14:11. > :14:13.would have made the discusshons on the immigration bill even more

:14:14. > :14:19.straightforward because we would have the backing of the evidence she

:14:20. > :14:27.has collected. But that is the way these things work. We know that

:14:28. > :14:34.there are still believed to be some 85,000 unaccompanied child refugees

:14:35. > :14:37.in Europe, many are missing and there are enormous dangers for

:14:38. > :14:42.children of invulnerable situations and have very little protection

:14:43. > :14:47.That is why I'm delighted the house passed and the Government accepted

:14:48. > :14:51.section sister seven -- 67 of the innovation act and the Government

:14:52. > :14:56.said at the time it would accept the letter and there of that amdndment

:14:57. > :15:01.and that in the slowness of the response I sometimes wonderdd if

:15:02. > :15:06.accepting the amendment to ` long time. I wish the debate we `re

:15:07. > :15:12.having about Calais has takdn place a few months ago. The Dublin

:15:13. > :15:17.children could well have bedn here long before them T then although I

:15:18. > :15:25.suppose the immigration act was a spur to the Government to gdt a move

:15:26. > :15:28.on. Those of us that have bden to Calais and the noble lady h`s been a

:15:29. > :15:32.far more than I have, I've been there are a couple of occashons it

:15:33. > :15:37.is really quite shocking. It is not a place for people to live, it is a

:15:38. > :15:42.place where they can exist, especially young people. I think we

:15:43. > :15:47.all felt that getting rid of that camp was a good thing but m`ny of us

:15:48. > :15:51.thought that it would only be right that the children should all be

:15:52. > :15:57.taken to places of safety bdfore any bulldozing started, so we h`d the

:15:58. > :16:01.spectacle of the last few d`ys when there were children there apparently

:16:02. > :16:07.not being fed looked after while other people in the camp, adults,

:16:08. > :16:09.has been moved out. I don't know of the British Government has done much

:16:10. > :16:13.about that because that was in the hand of the French authorithes but

:16:14. > :16:19.it was depressing that this was going on. I only heard about it and

:16:20. > :16:26.saw the pictures second-hand but the noble lady was therefore quhte a lot

:16:27. > :16:29.of the time. She testified to what happened. I understand the position

:16:30. > :16:35.now is that the children will be moved to safer places but that the

:16:36. > :16:40.Home Office will go with thdm in order to start monitoring and

:16:41. > :16:44.assessing so that those who are eligible to come to this cotntry

:16:45. > :16:52.will be able to do so and I hope that process will be accelerated and

:16:53. > :16:56.the children can hold a year -- can all be here before long. It is good

:16:57. > :17:00.news over 700 children are here The Minister can give us the latest and

:17:01. > :17:07.before that. It is a good ndws story and the children near now able to

:17:08. > :17:12.live in safety and get the support and education they have so long not

:17:13. > :17:18.managed to have. I remember the pleasure that one London cotnsellor

:17:19. > :17:22.told me when I spoke to a fdw days ago who, he had sent to sochal

:17:23. > :17:25.workers to collect two girls from the house and taken them back to his

:17:26. > :17:30.borough and by that evening they were each with a foster famhly. He

:17:31. > :17:34.was pleased about that and H thought that was a good news story `nd I

:17:35. > :17:38.hope there will be many mord such stories. I will let the fact that

:17:39. > :17:45.age became an issue, remain a seat on it. I suppose the Home Office

:17:46. > :17:48.must make sure we had the young ones and girls coming in first and not

:17:49. > :17:54.being photographed, that is the way these things happen. I did keep

:17:55. > :17:58.repeating to the media that when young people, children, havd

:17:59. > :18:01.travelled across half the world in terrible conditions, maybe that

:18:02. > :18:06.process has aged them. Maybd what their escape from has aged them and

:18:07. > :18:10.combining that, some of thel look older than I think they are but

:18:11. > :18:14.equally, if a 19-year-old is with them and they are still leghtimately

:18:15. > :18:21.refugee I don't think the world comes to an end. We can handle that,

:18:22. > :18:25.that is what the media made a lot of. What I think bothered md about

:18:26. > :18:32.that episode was we do need public consent. I think the abilitx to get

:18:33. > :18:37.public consent is damaged bdcause that policy will work better if the

:18:38. > :18:42.British public, they want all agree, but as a whole, agree we should give

:18:43. > :18:45.safety to at least some of the undercut the unaccompanied child

:18:46. > :18:49.refugees and that is when wd can move forward on a happier b`sis I'm

:18:50. > :18:56.grateful to the Minister for having kept me informed in some details and

:18:57. > :19:00.it has been helpful and madd me able to understand better what is going

:19:01. > :19:06.on because she gave me some of the facts and figures. I always

:19:07. > :19:09.intended, and we have agreelent on this, that not all unaccomp`nied

:19:10. > :19:12.child refugees should come here but we should take our share and other

:19:13. > :19:19.countries should step up to the mark as well and because Cal is so close

:19:20. > :19:23.to the situation is not one where money at many other countrids will

:19:24. > :19:27.want to step in, unlike in Greece. Even in Calais I would think the

:19:28. > :19:32.right answers to think about that like take about half and thd friend

:19:33. > :19:39.to take off provided they mdet the criteria. I understand in Greece the

:19:40. > :19:43.situation is a happier one hn that other companies were there `nd there

:19:44. > :19:46.is better cooperation with Greek authorities than has been achieved

:19:47. > :19:49.in France was I don't want to knock the French because we need tp their

:19:50. > :19:56.support and co-operation to make progress but I can't... Howdver

:19:57. > :20:00.I'll understand that so far assessments are being made of those

:20:01. > :20:03.children that are artificial shelters and there are quitd a few

:20:04. > :20:06.for whom there wasn't room `nd hope we don't forget about those because

:20:07. > :20:12.they are poorly more vulner`ble than the others. I don't think wd know

:20:13. > :20:17.what has happened. We know puite a few of the children who arrhved in

:20:18. > :20:21.the south of Italy made thehr way to Rome but I'm not sure if thdy are in

:20:22. > :20:27.a happy situation or not. All I would say is I want to go b`ck to

:20:28. > :20:33.the issue. I felt all along that the reason the Government in thd end

:20:34. > :20:37.accepted what became sections of the seven was because public ophnion was

:20:38. > :20:41.largely on the site of this country doing so. I interpret this `s a sign

:20:42. > :20:46.of the British people are htman Italian and they want to express

:20:47. > :20:52.that wish I providing support for the most vulnerable. -- are

:20:53. > :20:55.humanitarian. We are not taking that many, Germany is the conscidnce of

:20:56. > :21:01.Europe taking 1 million, I would like us to do more for adults as

:21:02. > :21:04.well. One of the criticisms that I've received and most of the

:21:05. > :21:10.e-mails and letters are supportive and I want read from some of the

:21:11. > :21:18.hostile ones because I want wish to have's time. -- I will not waste the

:21:19. > :21:25.house's time. If there is one thread of criticism it is that we `re

:21:26. > :21:28.giving money to support reftgee children were British children are

:21:29. > :21:33.not getting the same level of support. Now, I say sometimds on the

:21:34. > :21:37.phone and sometimes buy e-m`il that it is not my job to defend the

:21:38. > :21:43.Government's policies on cuts and bought a local authority 's and

:21:44. > :21:49.social care. The Government speaks with one voice, of course. H have

:21:50. > :21:52.tried to explain we are richer countries can surely not have to put

:21:53. > :22:00.the well-being of one vulnerable people against other childrdn and I

:22:01. > :22:07.hope that argument will eventually win the day. One of the criticisms

:22:08. > :22:10.covered in the select committee report is that for a long thme the

:22:11. > :22:15.children in Calais were givdn no information at all about wh`t their

:22:16. > :22:18.rights were. I sat with an interpreter asking if they had any

:22:19. > :22:21.information about the posithon and they said none. The result hs they

:22:22. > :22:27.will vulnerable to informathon from the people traffickers, certainly

:22:28. > :22:30.there was some in Calais, and the result is that they didn't want to

:22:31. > :22:38.exercise their right to clahm asylum in France so Britain was thd only

:22:39. > :22:43.place where they could go. There was a deficit there, a serious deficit,

:22:44. > :22:50.and I hope and understand its been overcome more recently becatse

:22:51. > :22:53.otherwise they are more vulnerable to not knowing what their

:22:54. > :22:57.indictments are. I know somd local authorities are not willing to help

:22:58. > :23:02.according to newspapers but the majority are. Certainly delhghted

:23:03. > :23:07.that of the local authoritids have had contact with like Hammersmith

:23:08. > :23:11.and healing, they are stepphng up to Lac well. When people ask what they

:23:12. > :23:20.can do I say firstly, make ` to your local authority and urge thdm to

:23:21. > :23:25.accept child refugees. One of the more light-hearted moments, not sure

:23:26. > :23:31.I've mentioned this before, is that a young Syrian got here on the back

:23:32. > :23:37.of the truck, very dangerous, and on the Green op. Cit. I was ch`tting to

:23:38. > :23:41.him and he said, do you know what I want to do? I want to becomd a

:23:42. > :23:44.politician and pointed to the Palace of Westminster. I don't know what

:23:45. > :23:50.answer there was accepted S`die better meet a few first before you

:23:51. > :23:54.finalise your life. It was `n endearing comments that he saw what

:23:55. > :23:57.politics had done in his cotntry in Syria and maybe he wanted today

:23:58. > :24:01.something better and do it hn a country where there are

:24:02. > :24:07.opportunities for that. The Government put out today a written

:24:08. > :24:13.statement that was actually a response to an amendment I had done

:24:14. > :24:19.for the children's bill. I think that amendment, that statemdnt, is

:24:20. > :24:24.an improvement on the amendlent that goes further and the Governlent will

:24:25. > :24:28.have a look at it and make ` few more comments. It does not solve the

:24:29. > :24:32.problem but in terms of safdguarding children I think it goes further

:24:33. > :24:39.than amendments and as such I would welcome it. I cannot be herd when we

:24:40. > :24:45.have the important stage of the children's social work bill next

:24:46. > :24:49.week. I hope our colleague of mine will be able to stand in and there

:24:50. > :24:54.will be a debate and hopefully you will feel able to withdraw the

:24:55. > :25:01.amendment. One or two littld questions like does it cover the 67

:25:02. > :25:07.amendment as well and will ht be an integral part of it? It must be I

:25:08. > :25:12.think the noble Baroness sahd, when we are out of the EU will double in

:25:13. > :25:17.three still apply? There will still be refugees who will have f`mily

:25:18. > :25:22.here and surely they should have a right to come in. I want to bring my

:25:23. > :25:26.answer to a close quickly and I want to flag up the uncertainty for those

:25:27. > :25:30.children that get here who then reached the age of 18 and whll feel

:25:31. > :25:35.very vulnerable not knowing if they can stay or not, and I want to pay

:25:36. > :25:42.tribute to the wonderful NGOs that I've Quak perjured with and met --

:25:43. > :25:51.that I've Quak Praet it with and networking with child refugdes. --

:25:52. > :25:55.cooperated with.. Freedom of thought even asked me to become a p`tron and

:25:56. > :26:00.I want to support the country that has sprung up and there needs to be

:26:01. > :26:04.a common European response. There is not time to debate that but I would

:26:05. > :26:09.like to have a chance to do that. For those who have come to this

:26:10. > :26:13.country I hope they will find safety and will be given the support to

:26:14. > :26:18.help them overcome the tormdnt they've suffered and they h`ve a

:26:19. > :26:24.chance to catch up on lost schooling and they will have the support of a

:26:25. > :26:32.loving family. My Lords, thd crisis we have faced in the UK in Durope is

:26:33. > :26:38.of course only part of a worldwide migration crisis. When we hdar from

:26:39. > :26:46.the UN that there are 65 million displaced persons in the world and

:26:47. > :26:50.we know in Europe there are 88, 00 unaccompanied children. Just in

:26:51. > :26:58.Europe alone. Of course with the years that, I think our leg`cy is

:26:59. > :27:02.not going to be good with Global one ring and economic disasters and

:27:03. > :27:09.conflict, the flow of refugdes could become a torrent, so we havd to

:27:10. > :27:16.face. To facing years ahead every need to tackle any problems like

:27:17. > :27:23.this in a more effective wax than we have this particular migrathon

:27:24. > :27:31.crisis. I was very sad when we had the debate on the amendment to see

:27:32. > :27:39.200 members of this house Woking into the lobby not to accept the

:27:40. > :27:44.3000 members in that origin`l amendment. I felt heartbrokdn that

:27:45. > :27:50.people here who could even have a thought that was to go in the know

:27:51. > :27:55.lobby on that particular amdndment. My hope of anything into thd future

:27:56. > :27:59.is that we realise it is not a one-off thing, it will be something

:28:00. > :28:00.that our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren will have to

:28:01. > :28:03.face in a more serious way. Subtitles will resume at 11pm

:28:04. > :28:11.for Tuesday in Parliament.