20/02/2017

:00:21. > :00:28.The eyes of Europe are now on as and we have it in our grasp to set out a

:00:29. > :00:35.new vision, realising their dreams of those who believe in union. All

:00:36. > :00:41.we need is the courage to put a new case, all the benefits of today can

:00:42. > :00:46.be restored tomorrow if we rebuild on firmer ground the premature union

:00:47. > :00:55.that has really needed its people needs to be reconfigured. We should

:00:56. > :01:03.lead this process. Although our country has voted, albeit by a small

:01:04. > :01:08.majority, to sever links with the EU, many voters continue to voice

:01:09. > :01:13.genuine concerns and questions about the future. Concerns which have been

:01:14. > :01:21.echoed eloquently by noble Lords hear today. About the impact on our

:01:22. > :01:25.economy and in living standards. The position of EU nationals working in

:01:26. > :01:30.our communities and paying their taxes to support our service sector.

:01:31. > :01:37.The position of UK nationals living and working in the EU. How our

:01:38. > :01:42.departure will impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and

:01:43. > :01:46.Gibraltar. Many are deeply concerned that our departure will precipitate

:01:47. > :01:53.the break-up of the EU itself and fear the potential for new turmoil

:01:54. > :01:58.in a continent which is being -- has been ravaged by war is 400 of years

:01:59. > :02:02.but has lived in comparative peace for the last 70. They want to know

:02:03. > :02:09.exactly what a hard press it will mean. They need to clean answers to

:02:10. > :02:15.their questions and responses to their concerns. -- hard Brexit.

:02:16. > :02:19.There is a deeper understanding of the benefits access to the single

:02:20. > :02:26.market has brought to the UK and a more accurate, acute awareness of

:02:27. > :02:34.the potential loss that could await us when we depart the EU. The single

:02:35. > :02:39.market is and has been a great value to Wales. So much so that the

:02:40. > :02:45.majority of parties and the Welsh Assembly while respecting the Welsh

:02:46. > :02:51.vote to leave the EU have called for school and unfettered access to it.

:02:52. > :03:07.It is a market which is vital to our economy. Some 68% of Welsh exports

:03:08. > :03:12.go to the EU. Securing replacement markets is likely to be a slow and

:03:13. > :03:16.cumbersome process which could damage our economy, certainly in the

:03:17. > :03:24.short term. These parties and the Welsh Assembly have also called for

:03:25. > :03:31.a balanced approach to immigration. Which would link migration to jobs

:03:32. > :03:33.and crucially, the advocate the introduction of properly enforce

:03:34. > :03:43.employment practices that protect workers. By Lords, I live in Conwy

:03:44. > :03:47.county in North Wales. Sitting at the edge of the Snowdonia National

:03:48. > :03:57.Park, it is a county blessed with the most beautiful scenery. With a

:03:58. > :04:03.GDP per capita of 75% of the EU average, putting it on par with

:04:04. > :04:07.Estonia and Lithuania, it has qualified for the EU structural

:04:08. > :04:14.funding allocated to West Wales and the values since 2000. The present

:04:15. > :04:23.Travel Show funding, running from 2014 to 2020 Caesar's benefiting

:04:24. > :04:29.from ?1.9 billion of EU investment to support people into work and

:04:30. > :04:33.training, youth unemployment, research and innovation, renewable

:04:34. > :04:42.energy schemes and energy efficiency projects. -- sees as benefiting. In

:04:43. > :04:46.an area suffering rule depredation, these are important building blocks

:04:47. > :04:51.in their attempts to grow our local economy. After my country's decision

:04:52. > :04:56.to leave the EU however, there are no guarantees of funding from the

:04:57. > :05:02.British Government to continue this -- these projects. How will any

:05:03. > :05:14.regional policy be funded? Agriculture plays a crucial role in

:05:15. > :05:22.the Welsh economy, employing 50,000 people an output of around ?1.5

:05:23. > :05:25.billion of produce. Agricultural funding will be upheld until 2020

:05:26. > :05:32.but the future after that is unclear. Farmers need clarity on

:05:33. > :05:37.future funding and projects. I would be grateful if that would be given

:05:38. > :05:43.today. The potential impact of withdrawal from the EU on the Airbus

:05:44. > :05:51.factory in north-east Wales also concerning. The site is run by a

:05:52. > :05:58.European consortium and this assembles wings for civil aircraft,

:05:59. > :06:05.wings which are transported by road and I see to Toulouse for final

:06:06. > :06:09.assembly. It directly employs over 6000 people and many others

:06:10. > :06:13.contribute to the supply chain and of course relies heavily on the

:06:14. > :06:20.ability to move goods and people freely between its sites. The

:06:21. > :06:25.analogy of the UK withdrawal of the EU to buying a House has already

:06:26. > :06:29.been made elsewhere and I make two apologies for using it hear. -- no

:06:30. > :06:38.apologies. Our country has made the decision to

:06:39. > :06:43.move home, we have no idea of the cost, are to be given no survey and

:06:44. > :06:49.no input. We are moving and are all expected to accept the jaws of home

:06:50. > :06:53.that will be made for us, not by us. In reality, though, house-buying has

:06:54. > :06:58.taken the balances throughout the process. Opportunities to reflect,

:06:59. > :07:05.the information and evaluated. Learn more about where we are going. We

:07:06. > :07:10.engage in decision-making throughout the process and make choices before

:07:11. > :07:20.signing an agreement. We have to accept that we are divided country.

:07:21. > :07:23.But he had Brexit delivered by a seemingly paternalistic government

:07:24. > :07:28.will do little to heal the divisions we all feel. We are told to accept

:07:29. > :07:34.the will of the people and unite behind the government. But unity

:07:35. > :07:39.cannot be forced upon us. Like respect, it has to be nurtured and

:07:40. > :07:44.errand. The first steps to unity can come from the government accepting

:07:45. > :07:49.that voters have the right to be part of the decision-making process.

:07:50. > :07:52.They have the right to reflect, learn more about their destination,

:07:53. > :08:01.re-evaluate their initial decision and either confirm or change it on

:08:02. > :08:04.these benches we believe that the British people must have the right

:08:05. > :08:11.to the final say on the deal negotiated by the government. That

:08:12. > :08:15.right is fundamental to our beliefs and is one of the issues we will

:08:16. > :08:23.pursuing at the later stages of this bill. I will make clear that I am

:08:24. > :08:26.not an enthusiast for referendums, except in the case of national

:08:27. > :08:29.determination, and even those should be avoided where possible. I believe

:08:30. > :08:33.the former pro Minister made a mistake in calling a referendum but

:08:34. > :08:37.the people have spoken and their elected representatives in the other

:08:38. > :08:41.players have chosen to follow the people's well. Those who support the

:08:42. > :08:45.remaining cores should not be too downcast. These islands have been

:08:46. > :08:50.seeking to define the relationship with continental Europe for the last

:08:51. > :08:54.2000 years. The referendum result represents a turn off the wheel and

:08:55. > :09:00.the wheel will one-day tour and again. Leaving the EU raises a

:09:01. > :09:03.multiplicity of questions and the government's white paper has done a

:09:04. > :09:14.good job in identifying the main ones. Perhaps inevitably, it has

:09:15. > :09:19.been a little less -- I would like to focus on four issues. As Macbeth

:09:20. > :09:22.said, if it is done when it is done then it is done quickly. The

:09:23. > :09:25.government has set itself a demanding timetable, more sober than

:09:26. > :09:32.the impending elections in Germany and France. But there is no point

:09:33. > :09:35.extending the negotiations and definitely. The British economy will

:09:36. > :09:39.have to change and adapt on the sooner there is certainty to format

:09:40. > :09:44.change, the better. The British economy has shown itself to be

:09:45. > :09:48.sufficiently flexible to adapt to shocks over the last decade and I am

:09:49. > :09:51.in no doubt it can adapt to this one, provided the government pursues

:09:52. > :09:56.a sensible economic policies of sound money and free trade.

:09:57. > :10:00.Secondly, we need to nurture capacity in the civil service.

:10:01. > :10:06.Inevitably, white or expertise in the EU and in trade negotiations if

:10:07. > :10:09.limited. -- Whitehall expertise. The Secretary of State recently pointed

:10:10. > :10:12.we should not worry, the full-service court will another

:10:13. > :10:15.1940, but that misses the point. At the civil service be better

:10:16. > :10:21.prepared, the pursuit of war in 1940 would have gone a whole lot better.

:10:22. > :10:26.This is not the time for amateurs who floated from one post to another

:10:27. > :10:30.in Number Ten or the Cabinet office, or the Treasury. We need to build a

:10:31. > :10:34.team of battle hardened professional negotiators who understand the world

:10:35. > :10:40.trade order and have the contacts to construct Britain's place in it.

:10:41. > :10:42.Thirdly, we need to prioritise the issue of Ireland. The white paper

:10:43. > :10:47.remind us that the British and Irish governments managed to deal with the

:10:48. > :10:50.broader question which are purely for the 50 years between the

:10:51. > :10:54.creation of the free State and both countries joining the European

:10:55. > :10:57.Union, but with Britain outside and violin still an enthusiastic member

:10:58. > :11:01.of the EU, goods and people will continue to flow freely from other

:11:02. > :11:07.EU member states and to the republic. I find it difficult to see

:11:08. > :11:11.how people will continue to flow freely across the border into

:11:12. > :11:14.Ulster. The white paper says the government will seek to safeguard

:11:15. > :11:19.business interests in Ulster, but in the absence of a customs union, I am

:11:20. > :11:25.not sure it can't. Of course, I hope the government succeeds, in creating

:11:26. > :11:30.a special arrangement for the border in Ireland, since if it does it will

:11:31. > :11:35.help minimise the damage of Scottish independence, which for all the

:11:36. > :11:39.economic argument against is now just a little bit more likely as a

:11:40. > :11:44.result of the referendum result. Finally, I would like to make a plea

:11:45. > :11:48.for free-trade and for the multilateral over bilateralism. The

:11:49. > :11:52.Gladstonian system of liberal free was unilateral. In the late 19th

:11:53. > :11:57.century, this country showed admirable contempt for countries

:11:58. > :12:00.like Germany, France and the united states, who sought to charge tariffs

:12:01. > :12:06.on imported goods. But in the 1890s, it was the Foreign Office, supported

:12:07. > :12:08.by the Prime Minister Joseph Chamberlain, who sought to undermine

:12:09. > :12:15.the free-trade system by advocating bilateral trade deal. I can see this

:12:16. > :12:19.happening again, and I do hope the Chancellor and Treasury will stand

:12:20. > :12:24.up to these pressures. Trade should not become an arm of foreign policy,

:12:25. > :12:26.or bureaucratic self-interest. My Lords, I have yet to decide on

:12:27. > :12:35.whether to support amendments to this bill. I've said, I am not an

:12:36. > :12:39.enthusiast for a never-ending referendum. But I do worry that

:12:40. > :12:42.leaving all further scrutiny will be to leave it too late. I shall listen

:12:43. > :12:45.to this debate and I hope the House can play a constructive role in

:12:46. > :12:53.enhancing the quality of the final settlement.

:12:54. > :12:59.Number 40 on the list, it reminds me that I was on 45 years outside the

:13:00. > :13:04.European Union and I remember well some of the tremendous service that

:13:05. > :13:09.was done, as has been mentioned, in bringing us into the European Union

:13:10. > :13:18.and the difficulties that involve. My Lords, I voted for remain and I

:13:19. > :13:23.was fairly enthusiastic for a referendum, on the basis that the

:13:24. > :13:28.people were entitled to say whether or not they wished to be in the

:13:29. > :13:33.European Union. And we know the answer, and so far as I am

:13:34. > :13:39.concerned, the government are band to give effect to that answer. --

:13:40. > :13:44.bound. Perhaps the obvious dramatic indication of that was Mr Cameron's

:13:45. > :13:48.resignation on the morning after, when he said that having led the

:13:49. > :13:56.argument to stay, he could not lead the country out of the European

:13:57. > :14:02.Union. So, here we are. And now the situation has arisen that a question

:14:03. > :14:10.was required to be determined as to whether the government could, in

:14:11. > :14:16.order to initiate the negotiations, do so under the royal prerogative.

:14:17. > :14:22.Now, the royal prerogative is well recognised as completely free

:14:23. > :14:26.negotiation of treaties and diplomacy generally, and I think it

:14:27. > :14:32.is generally accepted that is the right way to do it. That ministers

:14:33. > :14:37.should be responsible for that. There is a quotation from the 18th

:14:38. > :14:44.century that was quoted in the judgment in the Miller case, where

:14:45. > :14:53.Blackstone, a great exponent of English law, said of the practical

:14:54. > :14:59.reasons why the prerogative managing international relations is

:15:00. > :15:03.explained, he says this is wisely placed in a single hand by the

:15:04. > :15:10.British constitution for the sake of unanimity, strength and dispatch.

:15:11. > :15:15.Where it placed in many hands, it would be subject to many will, many

:15:16. > :15:23.wills of disunited and drawing in different ways create weakness any

:15:24. > :15:29.government and to unite those several roles and reduce them to one

:15:30. > :15:33.if the work of more and delay than the existences of state will afford.

:15:34. > :15:39.The only reason that the prerogative was not operator of in order to

:15:40. > :15:48.start the negotiations in connection with the European Union was because

:15:49. > :15:53.of the effect of the European act in 1972. And the fundamental rule is

:15:54. > :16:01.that the prerogative cannot afford, effect individual parliamentary

:16:02. > :16:07.rates and therefore to the extent necessary to open the negotiations,

:16:08. > :16:11.that authority needed to be given by an act of Parliament. And that is

:16:12. > :16:21.what the Supreme Court decided and they did not decide, and certainly

:16:22. > :16:25.gave no countenance to the idea that thereafter Parliament should control

:16:26. > :16:29.the actual negotiations. It is certainly true that ultimately, the

:16:30. > :16:34.negotiations, whatever they are, will certainly require to be

:16:35. > :16:40.examined. And there is certainly a very distinct possibility that the

:16:41. > :16:45.negotiations for the implementation in the end will require an act of

:16:46. > :16:49.Parliament. And if that is the case, then of course Parliament will be

:16:50. > :16:54.filling involved in that situation. But in the meantime, it seems to me

:16:55. > :17:00.that it is much better that ministers should have the

:17:01. > :17:04.responsibility to negotiate, because it is negotiation that is primarily

:17:05. > :17:12.an issue here, until a final issue is reached. And, as I said, the

:17:13. > :17:20.judgment of the Supreme Court, I think, supports that very strongly

:17:21. > :17:23.indeed. Now, the issues have been mentioned in the course of this

:17:24. > :17:29.debate which will certainly occupy ministers. I would like to believe

:17:30. > :17:35.that ministers will be looking for the best possible agreement that

:17:36. > :17:44.they can achieve in the interests of all the people, young and old,

:17:45. > :17:47.living in the United Kingdom. In England, Wales, Scotland and

:17:48. > :17:54.Northern Ireland. And I do not want to forget Gibraltar either. Were the

:17:55. > :17:59.problems must be quite severe. Different, anyway, from Northern

:18:00. > :18:06.Ireland, but those of us who have visited Gibraltar realise how

:18:07. > :18:09.tenuous the system is, and how it may affect them. So ministers have a

:18:10. > :18:14.responsibility to try to deal with all of that, and I do believe that

:18:15. > :18:21.is the best for us to leave it to them to do it. Without trying to

:18:22. > :18:26.interfere, put our finger into the pie, until they have finished the

:18:27. > :18:29.negotiations. So, I am all in favour of the second reading of this bill.

:18:30. > :18:36.I am all in favour of the bill being confirmed as it is, and I hope that

:18:37. > :18:41.will be the outcome from the House. Not because I am an unelected

:18:42. > :18:44.person, indeed, I am not the only unelected person in the British

:18:45. > :18:49.constitution! No member of the government is elected to his or her

:18:50. > :18:53.position. Most of them are of course elected to the House of commons, but

:18:54. > :18:57.not to their position in government. I want to vote for this bill, not

:18:58. > :19:06.because I am unelected but because the decision is right. My Lords, I

:19:07. > :19:11.wanted to start by making a confession, and I am glad that the

:19:12. > :19:13.chamber is not still, and I am hoping you will keep my concession

:19:14. > :19:17.to yourselves. LAUGHTER

:19:18. > :19:21.I know it will not please many noble friends on this side of the House,

:19:22. > :19:27.and I know it will probably please many noble Lords on the opposite

:19:28. > :19:32.side. For that, I can only say sorry to my noble friends and colleagues.

:19:33. > :19:40.Here goes. I like Theresa May. They are, I said it. So, let me continue

:19:41. > :19:48.in that same vein of honesty. My Lords, equally do not trust Boris

:19:49. > :19:54.Johnson, David Davis or Liam Fox to successfully negotiate a good deal

:19:55. > :20:00.with the EU or any other nation. They are, I have said that as well.

:20:01. > :20:04.I have no confidence that they have the skills, understanding and

:20:05. > :20:09.confidence to do such a deal. I know they have many other attributes, but

:20:10. > :20:14.managing a complex and tough set of negotiations is not amongst them. My

:20:15. > :20:21.Lords, for those of us, and there are many in this House, who have

:20:22. > :20:27.run, Bill or managed big, multi-billion pound commercial

:20:28. > :20:32.operations, we know that putting the trainees to run your most important

:20:33. > :20:38.deal is a mistake. And that is what looks like it is happening. My

:20:39. > :20:41.Lords, in this House there are eight previous EU commissioners. Two have

:20:42. > :20:46.already spoken. There are current and past CEOs of some of Britain 's

:20:47. > :20:50.biggest companies. There are German, past and present, of many of our

:20:51. > :20:56.most successful businesses. And I would say to the Prime Minister,

:20:57. > :21:02.this House is not your enemy. This House is a resource and a place to

:21:03. > :21:07.find advice, help and skills that are not available in the other

:21:08. > :21:12.place. So, I hope the Prime Minister will seek to involve this House more

:21:13. > :21:16.and not with in the negotiations. I hope that a mechanism can be found

:21:17. > :21:21.to include members of this House into the negotiations process,

:21:22. > :21:24.whilst preserving the confidentiality required to

:21:25. > :21:25.negotiate. Perhaps something again to the intelligence committee in the

:21:26. > :21:36.other place. It is perhaps not the government's

:21:37. > :21:41.finest hour, being dragged before the courts and forced to bring this

:21:42. > :21:49.bill before Parliament so it is only natural that many in this House

:21:50. > :21:54.might worry or be suspicious about free assurances from the government

:21:55. > :22:00.from the dispatch box. I would like to say, as I suspect many in this

:22:01. > :22:07.House and the other place, a legal commitment to a vote in both Houses

:22:08. > :22:14.before the article 50 deal is brought before the European

:22:15. > :22:18.Parliament. If Parliament rejects the deal, I would want Parliament to

:22:19. > :22:23.be given a series of auctions, including sending the government

:22:24. > :22:27.back to the negotiation table. I want a strong Britain with a strong

:22:28. > :22:33.economy that serves those who voted for Brexit as well as those who

:22:34. > :22:36.voted against. I want jobs for those without, education and health

:22:37. > :22:41.service which are the envy of the world. I want a Britain that is

:22:42. > :22:47.confident and not weakened by fear of false enemies. That is the

:22:48. > :22:50.challenge of Brexit, a better, stronger Britain. I expect the

:22:51. > :22:59.government to deliver on that promise. Millions of people have

:23:00. > :23:01.hopes and fears resting on the actions of the government. I

:23:02. > :23:06.genuinely wish the government well. I will do my part to help to

:23:07. > :23:10.continue to invest in the UK economy. I will also the government

:23:11. > :23:16.to account for the hopes and fears of many. If they cannot deliver a

:23:17. > :23:21.better, better than we have today, then they should not be afraid to

:23:22. > :23:24.say so. They should look at the alternative options, no matter how

:23:25. > :23:31.politically unappealing some of those might seem today. My Lords, we

:23:32. > :23:38.hear to serve not just political dogma. -- we are here. I would like

:23:39. > :23:44.to say one other words about the behaviour of the House. For those of

:23:45. > :23:50.us that have been on the backbenches for a long time, we do not behave

:23:51. > :23:56.badly. We really do not need to be lectured on our behaviour. The

:23:57. > :23:59.people that they leave badly generally are front run politicians

:24:00. > :24:02.and you will find them at the front of the House, not at the back of the

:24:03. > :24:07.House. Backbenchers in this please have an amazing record of being

:24:08. > :24:14.absolutely brilliant at the things they bring to this House. I think

:24:15. > :24:21.the noble Lords and members of the other place would remember that and

:24:22. > :24:29.the debate would go much easier. -- I think if. The government is about

:24:30. > :24:33.to take the momentous step of triggering article 50. I never had

:24:34. > :24:39.any doubt about that happening. There is a white paper, the purpose

:24:40. > :24:42.of which the 2nd of February, the Secretary of State said was to

:24:43. > :24:50.inform all debates in the coming two years. So for the mother of all

:24:51. > :24:59.negotiations, we had 73 pages, much of occupied by current analysis in

:25:00. > :25:04.exclamatory boxes but no substantive guidance on how cooperation is

:25:05. > :25:10.envisaged to work and how that could work is not a negotiation tactic, it

:25:11. > :25:16.is the fundamental prospectus and should not be secret. So we are

:25:17. > :25:25.where we are as the saying goes. We do not know where we will be at the

:25:26. > :25:29.ends... Where we will end up as the white paper saying goes because that

:25:30. > :25:33.is entirely a matter for negotiation. Those are the words

:25:34. > :25:40.that spring out from the white paper, that our future relationship

:25:41. > :25:43.is entirely a matter for negotiations. It says so in

:25:44. > :25:51.paragraph 210 on dispute resolution and in another paragraphs. In the

:25:52. > :25:55.paragraph on our new customs relationship and in the paragraph

:25:56. > :26:01.regarding our relationship with European arrangements and for

:26:02. > :26:04.interim relationships. The Irish border, financial services,

:26:05. > :26:10.scientific cooperation, the list goes on. Depending on the results of

:26:11. > :26:17.those negotiations, we will get the interpretation of the word possible

:26:18. > :26:22.in the frequently used expression of frictionless and seamless as

:26:23. > :26:25.possible. Freely as possible. As much as possible, closest as

:26:26. > :26:31.possible and as much certainty as possible. It is worse than no

:26:32. > :26:37.certainty because the government has said it would jump off a cliff into

:26:38. > :26:43.disordered uncertainty as its only alternative. For my part, I do not

:26:44. > :26:50.agree that the government already has an incontestable mandate for

:26:51. > :26:54.that which may also turn out to be the constitutional position. Nor

:26:55. > :27:00.mother be any certainty through early priorities because we are

:27:01. > :27:06.nearly on the brink of swapping the EU's no negotiation before

:27:07. > :27:12.triggering mantrap for its standard negotiation of nothing is agreed

:27:13. > :27:15.until everything is agreed. However, there could be one important

:27:16. > :27:21.certainty if the government would confirm the acquired right for EU

:27:22. > :27:29.citizens currently in the UK. Holding office doing harm to the UK,

:27:30. > :27:35.in the NHS and elsewhere so as I'm negotiation card it is bust. It is

:27:36. > :27:42.known and shown to have no value, at least grasp the figleaf of decency

:27:43. > :27:48.now. Though I declare a deep personal interest because my late

:27:49. > :27:53.father was arguably the foremost engineer of his time in atomic

:27:54. > :28:01.energy and particle accelerators. For UK purposes, the term EU

:28:02. > :28:08.includes you at in so far as context requires therefore as that stands on

:28:09. > :28:13.the bill, that might incline the Prime Minister to give notice as

:28:14. > :28:23.regards the usual atom legal entity, the question is when as well as

:28:24. > :28:30.whether that is appropriate. The arguments are not clear cut as to

:28:31. > :28:36.whether Euroatom is automatically included. This gives the government

:28:37. > :28:40.an opportunity, a useful alternative for transition by not triggering

:28:41. > :28:49.Euroatom Article 50 simultaneously with regard to. With this it is the

:28:50. > :28:54.EU definition which matters. At least have some negotiation about

:28:55. > :29:04.the modalities under which there could be continuing membership of

:29:05. > :29:10.Euroatom. Having regard for long-term timescales. Even a short

:29:11. > :29:16.delay might be helpful given that the Dutch, French and German

:29:17. > :29:21.elections and summer holidays play the UK into the format of early

:29:22. > :29:25.talks being around the formation of financial provisions. I cannot say

:29:26. > :29:32.why the UK would not keep this chance cards when it keeps the

:29:33. > :29:36.useless EU migrants one. My Lords there are amendments which I will

:29:37. > :29:42.support. The government has made its own difficulties, inadequate

:29:43. > :29:45.information on how it is meant to work and like a perpetual motion

:29:46. > :29:53.machine, engineering is deeply suspect. Closing of options that did

:29:54. > :30:02.not need to be closed off with its, not a jot of EU approach. We did not

:30:03. > :30:07.need to be hogtied that way. In the end, you will have to cut some slack

:30:08. > :30:08.because you will be rumbled. Perpetual motion machine is always

:30:09. > :30:30.are. I think I am next. My Lords, I first

:30:31. > :30:39.arrived tear in 1981. When I was even younger than the noble

:30:40. > :30:47.Baroness, the tender age of 29. Unlike Lord Mackay I actually am

:30:48. > :30:52.elected. It is rather like being the Member for Old Sarum but I am

:30:53. > :30:57.elected. During that time, one has seen and heard a lot and this is the

:30:58. > :31:03.largest turnout that I have ever witnessed. Still, seeing I was the

:31:04. > :31:09.number that I am, I listened politely and we got up to 20, 30,

:31:10. > :31:16.40. I thought this was wonderful, no one has made the point I wish to

:31:17. > :31:20.make and then suddenly the noble Lord stood up, whom I have not had

:31:21. > :31:26.the pleasure of meeting but perhaps we should get together and confirm

:31:27. > :31:33.since he clearly reads my mind or in the early hours I have been reading

:31:34. > :31:39.his. Like the zero -- noble Lord Hope, my reputation as a political

:31:40. > :31:44.soothsayer has suffered a bit of a battering during 2016. I got it

:31:45. > :31:52.wrong about the referendum. I got it wrong about the US election. So my

:31:53. > :31:56.credit with those people who thought I had some sort of political insight

:31:57. > :32:02.is virtually zero. When I last spoke in this House, it was in March/

:32:03. > :32:10.tear. That seems like a lifetime ago. -- March last year. But here we

:32:11. > :32:15.are, we have an unanticipated outcome, we appear to have little or

:32:16. > :32:19.no effective scenario planning about potential options before the event

:32:20. > :32:29.and now we have a scramble to get our collective heads around it which

:32:30. > :32:32.was eliminated uncomfortably for me by a conversation I had about two

:32:33. > :32:34.months ago with a friend of mine from the north of England who turned

:32:35. > :32:39.out to be very strongly pro-leaving. The conversation went for about ten

:32:40. > :32:46.minutes, talking about the reasons for voting for lives. At the end we

:32:47. > :32:52.try to sum it up. I said, I will call him Nigel for this evening, I

:32:53. > :33:00.said, I think we are agreeing with each other that the political

:33:01. > :33:04.grandees who were most in favour of leaving are probably intellectually

:33:05. > :33:10.and managerially the least competent to actually manage our way out of

:33:11. > :33:16.it? And he said yes. So, basically, those of us who did not want to

:33:17. > :33:23.leave are going to have to manage our way through this? And he said

:33:24. > :33:29.yes. I said, all right. Just so you know, this does not feel great and

:33:30. > :33:34.so we moved on. I do think for many others, that is where we are. People

:33:35. > :33:38.did not buy in large vote on political grounds. If you look at

:33:39. > :33:42.the elected its which normally support the Conservative Party and

:33:43. > :33:47.those who might normally be thought to support the Labour party, very

:33:48. > :33:54.large numbers of them chose not to follow their political leaders and

:33:55. > :34:03.to go in the wrong direction. 37.5% of the total electorate voted to

:34:04. > :34:08.leave and 34.6% choose to remain. While the new US president might

:34:09. > :34:16.regard this gulf between the two percentages as awesome, historic and

:34:17. > :34:20.unprecedented, earth-shattering even, some of us might choose to

:34:21. > :34:27.differ and recognise that it really was quite close. One of my

:34:28. > :34:34.great-grandfathers had the good sense I suppose to be a Conservative

:34:35. > :34:41.politician and his name is Stanley Baldwin. If ever he heard someone

:34:42. > :34:47.speaking about politicians being in power, he would quietly correct them

:34:48. > :34:51.and say you misunderstand the basis of being election -- elected. You

:34:52. > :34:56.are elected into office as much to represent those who did not vote for

:34:57. > :35:03.you or did not vote at all for those who did vote for you. As I listen to

:35:04. > :35:10.the passionate arguments and so-called facts and counter facts

:35:11. > :35:13.being bounded -- bandied about, as I listened with visceral distaste to

:35:14. > :35:20.accusations of lack of patches to them by people who I think I would

:35:21. > :35:25.describe as strangely sore winners, you normally have sore losers but we

:35:26. > :35:32.appear to have sore winners as well as sore losers. My Lords, we need

:35:33. > :35:37.cool and measured heads but we also need political stethoscopes in order

:35:38. > :35:42.that we can listen to our fellow citizens. Sore winners and sore

:35:43. > :35:46.losers do not make good negotiators, especially when disagreeing with one

:35:47. > :35:52.another rather thoughtlessly. My final point is to echo what was said

:35:53. > :35:57.earlier, some in your Lordships House, especially those who have

:35:58. > :36:00.enjoyed a career in another place, particularly some of them who

:36:01. > :36:06.achieved the dizzy heights of being appointed Privy Councillor, seem to

:36:07. > :36:12.have forgotten that the courtesies of this House are different. They

:36:13. > :36:18.are greatly valued by most of us. Audibly and theatrically disagreeing

:36:19. > :36:20.with others use may be meat and drink in the other place but not

:36:21. > :36:35.hear, my lords. I must apologise to Lord Russell, I

:36:36. > :36:38.listened to him with interest, I didn't agree with that last remark

:36:39. > :36:44.but that's another matter. Like others, I welcome this mercifully

:36:45. > :36:53.short Bill, I have to confess that after more than 45 years of foremost

:36:54. > :36:56.continuous EU debates, treaties and arguments, it's hard to think of

:36:57. > :37:05.anything extremely new and useful to say. Of course we can add here

:37:06. > :37:10.analysis and insight and advice aplenty and there are many noble

:37:11. > :37:13.Lords who are supremely well qualified to do that, we have heard

:37:14. > :37:16.some of it this afternoon and will hear a great deal more in the weeks

:37:17. > :37:25.to come. But I cannot see the point at this stage of trying to amend

:37:26. > :37:28.what is essentially a procedure, the use the medical term, and one that

:37:29. > :37:34.must be handled with immense and I'm distracted care, a minimum of gold

:37:35. > :37:42.by joking if it is to succeed and to get us through the wherewithal to

:37:43. > :37:46.be. There is said to be two frontrunning amendments in prospect,

:37:47. > :37:51.one concerns the status of EU residents, and that is a very tricky

:37:52. > :37:55.one. I must confess that much as I would like to be on the side of the

:37:56. > :38:01.unilateralists, I'm afraid it looks as though a unilateral approach is

:38:02. > :38:06.not go to work. Some continental countries and leaders are clearly

:38:07. > :38:14.not going to budge except under pressure and we cannot abandon 1

:38:15. > :38:18.million British citizens. The other front runner is about Parliament's

:38:19. > :38:21.say in our final deal, I'm not sure it will come back in this neat

:38:22. > :38:27.package as everyone currently seems to think, particularly in the other

:38:28. > :38:32.place. I will return to that. The plot to make is about trade and the

:38:33. > :38:37.single market, I confess my difficulty trying to get into the

:38:38. > :38:43.mindset of those like Tony Blair and Lord Mandelson who spoke so clearly,

:38:44. > :38:48.and a Liberal Democrat friends, but fears of a hard Brexit, the more I

:38:49. > :38:51.hear about their fears, the more I think I'm listing to a worldview on

:38:52. > :38:58.trade which is completely and utterly obsolete. Services, digital

:38:59. > :39:03.and conventional, are coming to dominate international exchange,

:39:04. > :39:09.data and information flows generate more economic value them all global

:39:10. > :39:15.goods trade and our economy is 81% services, 33% of it digital or

:39:16. > :39:20.digitally related businesses. Slightly under half a current expert

:39:21. > :39:27.earnings come from services and this will grow fast, and the white Paper

:39:28. > :39:33.tells us that 30% of total value of goods and exports and services

:39:34. > :39:36.anywhere. Not just financial services, all the other services,

:39:37. > :39:43.retail consultancy, legal services, creative industries, fashion,

:39:44. > :39:48.tourism, accountancy, are still bigger earners than financial

:39:49. > :39:51.services. The reason for this is doubly powerful trend is that in the

:39:52. > :39:58.last few years we've seen the complete collapse of communication

:39:59. > :40:04.and information cost to almost zero, and production going international,

:40:05. > :40:09.with revolutionary effects on trade flows and investment. There is a

:40:10. > :40:13.massive shift of global GDP shares from West and North East and South

:40:14. > :40:17.taking place, a total reversal of fortunes, the old form of

:40:18. > :40:22.globalisation in the 20th century which went on before 1990, when

:40:23. > :40:26.North and West got richer and the South got poorer, now it's the other

:40:27. > :40:29.way around except for the very richest who have done well in both

:40:30. > :40:35.areas. The chief new winners are China, India, Ozil, Indonesia,

:40:36. > :40:41.Nigeria, Mexico, Turkey, three of those in the Commonwealth, and

:40:42. > :40:46.services no no boundaries, they are duty free, and the other hand they

:40:47. > :40:53.are restricted in the EU by numerous rules. The fact is that the US has

:40:54. > :40:57.not been a good place in recent years for services expansion. Our

:40:58. > :41:05.services UK exports have grown less to other members within the EU then

:41:06. > :41:08.to outside markets. Outside countries not in the EU have done

:41:09. > :41:14.better exported into the EU than we have sent 1993. Of the 20 countries

:41:15. > :41:21.with the fastest export growth in the last ten years, only three are

:41:22. > :41:24.in the EU. Meanwhile, W shares widened across all continents,

:41:25. > :41:29.making nonsense of protected production zones like in the single

:41:30. > :41:34.market, and with components and partly processed products crossing

:41:35. > :41:38.borders multiple times. The obvious conclusion and analysis is that

:41:39. > :41:44.being in or out of the old single market is of decreasing relevance to

:41:45. > :41:48.our interests and prosperity, skills and share innovative power are

:41:49. > :41:53.becoming more important. My Lords, it's a bit affected in these

:41:54. > :41:58.conditions, we have so far been rather bad exporters, one of the

:41:59. > :42:07.weakest in the Europe, with heavy imports to fill the gap. We cannot

:42:08. > :42:11.go on like this with a new model. As Lord Hill said earlier, business

:42:12. > :42:16.cards operate in a vacuum, and will not wait for the deliberations and

:42:17. > :42:19.negotiations. They are making their own deals and arrangements, quite

:42:20. > :42:24.aside from the complexity, the whole prospect depends on how they use

:42:25. > :42:28.customers across the Channel. The EU is entering a major period of

:42:29. > :42:36.upheaval, another year of crisis is around the corner, the process to be

:42:37. > :42:39.agreed by 70% council members, and new relationship has to be grew by

:42:40. > :42:46.39 parliamentary chambers, how will it be found at a Brussels level, who

:42:47. > :42:52.will have the authority to settle it all. We must stay very close to our

:42:53. > :42:57.European neighbours on a whole range of security and safety issues. But a

:42:58. > :43:03.new mental model is required to comprehend the unprecedented trade

:43:04. > :43:08.situation. Tony Blair says the government are not masters of the

:43:09. > :43:11.situation. He hasn't grasped these fluid new conditions, no government

:43:12. > :43:16.is in control. We are caught up in historic forces, social,

:43:17. > :43:20.technological and political, much bigger than any single government,

:43:21. > :43:26.as are many other countries including the USA. The single market

:43:27. > :43:31.is a smaller and smaller part of the scene. Our interests, and our future

:43:32. > :43:41.prosperity, now my on the wider stage and we must move confidently

:43:42. > :43:45.and unimpeded the centre of it. It's always about to follow the much

:43:46. > :43:47.respected Lord, 20 years ago I followed him chairing the Foreign

:43:48. > :43:55.Affairs Committee in the other place. Who do live in strange times,

:43:56. > :43:59.this is a very short bill but with momentous consequences. Consensual

:44:00. > :44:08.habits, built over 45 years are to be set aside, Brexiteer is argued

:44:09. > :44:09.for restoring national sovereignty, parliamentary sovereignty and

:44:10. > :44:15.therefore it's puzzling that the government did not wish this debate

:44:16. > :44:22.to take place and relied instead on the royal prerogative, like some

:44:23. > :44:27.17th-century Mike. Again we had the amazing spectacle of the other place

:44:28. > :44:32.approving this bill with a vast majority, when the majority of

:44:33. > :44:38.members of Parliament believe it not to be in our national interest. I

:44:39. > :44:45.make three brief points. First, the nature of the decision on June 23.

:44:46. > :44:49.Much of the debate, the post-referendum analysis, is focused

:44:50. > :44:53.on the regional differences, London, Scotland and so on. Perhaps of more

:44:54. > :44:58.interest to us and to the government, if they wish to govern

:44:59. > :45:05.for the country as a whole, is the age difference. Three quarters of 18

:45:06. > :45:09.- 24-year-olds voted to remain. The young, whose interests have been

:45:10. > :45:14.most affected, but it strongly to remain, the old, who by definition

:45:15. > :45:22.have shorter term interest, voted to leave. 46 was the point at which

:45:23. > :45:30.there was the change over. Why this age differential? There was a new

:45:31. > :45:36.nation, but surely nostalgia as well. A yearning for yesteryear, a

:45:37. > :45:46.reluctance to come to terms with UK of today with its modernity and

:45:47. > :45:52.diversity, to adapt, it was making Britain great again, and again was

:45:53. > :45:59.perhaps the operative word, in looking back to some time of the

:46:00. > :46:03.past. Perhaps nostalgia even includes memories of the

:46:04. > :46:08.Commonwealth as it was. Indeed the group of Conservative members

:46:09. > :46:12.apparently wanted new entry channels at our ports and airports for the

:46:13. > :46:18.Commonwealth, but oddly seem to focus only on the white old

:46:19. > :46:26.dominions. They perhaps forget that Commonwealth governments, perhaps

:46:27. > :46:29.universally, favoured remain. Past attempts to revive, North trade had

:46:30. > :46:37.not been particularly successful. And any new deals from rich with the

:46:38. > :46:41.Commonwealth could harm some of our key national interests, including

:46:42. > :46:45.agriculture, land, beef and so on. Surely there is now a danger that

:46:46. > :46:49.the government desperately try, after Europe, to create automotive

:46:50. > :46:58.alliances, for example by cosying up to the Trump illustration in the US,

:46:59. > :47:04.appoint already made generation to pollution in the human rights

:47:05. > :47:09.commission. -- in relation to pollution. And there are hints on

:47:10. > :47:15.shifts in Sharon policy will stop with the people must be consulted,

:47:16. > :47:19.they have spoken, their view should be respected and technically, this

:47:20. > :47:24.must be right. Although the referendum was only advisory we to

:47:25. > :47:32.acknowledge political reality and not like Tony Benn in 1975, having

:47:33. > :47:39.worked hard for a referendum, continuing to campaign against what

:47:40. > :47:45.was the common market, even after 2-1 voted in favour, not 52-48. Out

:47:46. > :47:56.of the referendum, about? Let us not ignore the weakness of the camera.

:47:57. > :47:59.-- Mr Cameron. He vowed to lead the European People's party, much

:48:00. > :48:06.against our interests, he promoted this act to hold a referendum before

:48:07. > :48:11.any chance of a power to Brussels as if it was an alien, hostile power,

:48:12. > :48:16.and it was hardly surprising therefore that he was not credible

:48:17. > :48:20.when he stood on his head and advised the country to follow his

:48:21. > :48:25.lead. How do we now respond to the Bill? And we follow our arms and say

:48:26. > :48:31.that people have spoken, long live the people? I make three points. We

:48:32. > :48:37.had to concede that the Remainers were too gloomy, at least on the

:48:38. > :48:42.effects of a negative vote, in the short-term, but the Brexiteers were

:48:43. > :48:44.guilty of blatant lies. The addition of some study national health

:48:45. > :48:50.service, the imminent entry of Turkey and no mention of an exit

:48:51. > :48:55.fee. Yes, we should look with respect, as we have already come on

:48:56. > :48:59.the work of scrutiny committees who have been trailblazers, particularly

:49:00. > :49:05.our EU committees. There are no chances at least of the impact of

:49:06. > :49:09.leaving by passing amendments, EU citizens can the Irish border, the

:49:10. > :49:14.environment and workers' rights. We had to ask ourselves, did the

:49:15. > :49:18.referendum give the government a blank check? Are there no

:49:19. > :49:21.constraints on their ambitions, on the single market, customs union,

:49:22. > :49:26.borders, universities? There should at least be a meaningful vote in

:49:27. > :49:31.parliament at the end of the process, and as Lord O'Donnell said

:49:32. > :49:37.what is now proposed is no real concession. Finally, we should not

:49:38. > :49:46.rule out the possibility of a second referendum, when the final package

:49:47. > :49:50.is clear. David Davis began the debate on January 31, column 818, by

:49:51. > :49:57.speaking of a very simple question, do we trust the people or not? On

:49:58. > :50:01.June 23 the people voted negatively to leave, do we still have that

:50:02. > :50:07.trust? Should they not be now trusted by the government to give an

:50:08. > :50:12.answer to the positive question, do you approve of the package which the

:50:13. > :50:23.government has negotiated on your behalf? Applets to the Lord

:50:24. > :50:29.Anderson. Identity the threats and there may be many reasons why this

:50:30. > :50:33.has in his current form should be abolished or reformed but expressing

:50:34. > :50:38.our views honestly is not one of them. Those in the other place who

:50:39. > :50:42.seek to threaten and bully us should be ashamed of themselves.

:50:43. > :50:49.If we sent back to the Commons amendments to say simply look again

:50:50. > :50:53.at this, that is what we do with legislation. At least that is my

:50:54. > :51:00.understanding after a year in the house. This is a different. And, my

:51:01. > :51:04.lords, we live in uncertain times, in an uncertain world them even more

:51:05. > :51:07.uncertain today now that the new leader of the free world appears to

:51:08. > :51:14.have no understanding or respect for his role or worse. Each day brings

:51:15. > :51:18.another jaw-dropping statement, press briefing, appointment, tweet

:51:19. > :51:23.or executive order, and the reality of which is stark and dangerous in

:51:24. > :51:26.my view. I have always been a great fan of America, I have always wanted

:51:27. > :51:31.a really close relationship with the country that has the most power. And

:51:32. > :51:35.I have wanted a close relationship with Europe, and I am now concerned

:51:36. > :51:41.about my relationship, our relationship with a continent. But

:51:42. > :51:47.to be fair even if I had been Hillary, in an international world

:51:48. > :51:52.we stand with our friends, be that EU, Nato, the Commonwealth, or the

:51:53. > :51:55.United Nations, none of these great groups are perfect, far from it and

:51:56. > :52:02.all needs to be more effective and dynamic. But the EU was ours. And it

:52:03. > :52:07.is our nearest and dearest and I am brokenhearted that on a simple

:52:08. > :52:12.majority, in a poorly argued campaign, on both sides, our nation

:52:13. > :52:17.is walking away from peace, security, jobs and economic success.

:52:18. > :52:24.Yes, we will survive, how well is yet to be seen. But do not threaten

:52:25. > :52:31.or tell me not to fight for what I believe in, or to stay as involved

:52:32. > :52:36.as is humanly possible post-Brexit to Europe. And on this debate, on

:52:37. > :52:48.the power to jiggle RTE 50 -- trigger Article 50 I have a

:52:49. > :52:58.conditions. Without Euratom, the peaceful use of many new chiller

:52:59. > :53:06.facets is not certain. -- new colour. -- nuclear. The leaving of

:53:07. > :53:13.the EU does not mean leaving Euratom. What I would say to my

:53:14. > :53:17.noble Lords is that it is beyond vital that we remain in Euratom even

:53:18. > :53:24.if we were outside Euratom for the reasons unforgiven. One of the

:53:25. > :53:29.other. We should give the assurance to the EU you unilaterally that

:53:30. > :53:34.their future is secure. This is no way for a decent country to behave.

:53:35. > :53:39.And on the single market, I think we need our heads examining if we

:53:40. > :53:42.leave. I was a Home Office minister and worked with Theresa May for

:53:43. > :53:46.three years in the Home Office and she is a very sensible and a very

:53:47. > :53:51.clever woman. And I am hoping the odd hope that a heart Brexit is a

:53:52. > :53:57.negotiating position and that common sense will prevail in negotiations,

:53:58. > :54:02.seeing as retaining access to the market. Anything else is beyond mad.

:54:03. > :54:07.Lastly I come to perhaps the most important part of the process that

:54:08. > :54:10.this debate kicks off. That which we say should give the British people

:54:11. > :54:16.the final say on the deal, when it is done. To listen to MP after MP in

:54:17. > :54:21.the Commons debates say how much they disagree with leaving the EU,

:54:22. > :54:36.but they did not wish to frustrate the people... It was as if there to

:54:37. > :54:42.hone is -- as if they're cojones had gone missing, if you'll pardon the

:54:43. > :54:46.expression. That is why this must go back to the people. It would be

:54:47. > :54:50.almost impossible for parliament suitably vote without becoming a

:54:51. > :54:54.nation of the British people, it starts with the people and must end

:54:55. > :55:01.with them. When they are in a position to make a judgment based on

:55:02. > :55:05.facts. Based on the deal itself. Parliament can debate and argue but

:55:06. > :55:08.it is clear that the Commons believes it must not frustrate the

:55:09. > :55:12.will of the people. Although if you will excuse my cynicism, I do wonder

:55:13. > :55:17.what will happen when the cold wind of Brexit rose public opinion the

:55:18. > :55:22.other way. -- blows public opinion the other way. The referendum was

:55:23. > :55:25.clear, clear as mud. Retrospective clarity that is now given to it was

:55:26. > :55:30.not there at the time and is no substitute for the ultimate truth

:55:31. > :55:35.that will be the deal. We should make this momentous change and leave

:55:36. > :55:39.the EU on a simple majority of an advisory referendum, based on

:55:40. > :55:45.campaigns that only had a tangential relationship to the truth, and given

:55:46. > :55:49.as the result of appeasement to the right wing of the Conservative Party

:55:50. > :55:54.is unforgivable. The final decision must go back to the people and the

:55:55. > :55:59.people of this country can be trusted, knowing the deal on the

:56:00. > :56:03.table, to make a decision as to whether their first view, now

:56:04. > :56:12.informed by reality, remains their view. Of the people, by the people,

:56:13. > :56:20.for the people. My lords it is a pleasure to follow Baroness

:56:21. > :56:24.Featherstone, who spoke of her convictions with entertaining

:56:25. > :56:31.European language, I note. I am a member of the EU select committee of

:56:32. > :56:35.which more later. I note the ratio of the number of words to be spoken

:56:36. > :56:38.in this second reading of the debates to that contained in the

:56:39. > :56:44.bill is surely a parliamentary record. I will try not unduly to add

:56:45. > :56:52.to that ratio and confine my remarks to three areas. Firstly, the bill

:56:53. > :56:55.itself. On this matter, I wholly associate myself with the remarks

:56:56. > :57:01.and reasoning of my noble friend the liberal Lord Hope of Craighead, and

:57:02. > :57:06.in particular his, and I quote in desire to get an. There has been

:57:07. > :57:12.much eloquence are doing the same today, and I would only add the

:57:13. > :57:15.simple observation that if you don't drive successfully forward is by

:57:16. > :57:21.looking in the rear view mirror. Second area I want to touch briefly

:57:22. > :57:25.on is uncertainty. Any amendment in this process that promotes

:57:26. > :57:30.uncertainty should be rejected, as not being in the national interest.

:57:31. > :57:33.Others today has spoken to this, there are at least three areas of

:57:34. > :57:38.uncertainty that we must have regard to that worry me. First is

:57:39. > :57:47.uncertainty concerning the status of our negotiators at negotiations. And

:57:48. > :57:50.here, Lord Hill and Lord Empey were particularly good and

:57:51. > :57:56.thought-provoking, and I wholly agree with them. Our negotiations

:57:57. > :58:02.must be empowered and cannot do a good job if they are not. Secondly,

:58:03. > :58:05.concerning uncertainty, is a truism that uncertainty is the enemy of

:58:06. > :58:11.commerce, which after all is the root of our prosperity and success.

:58:12. > :58:18.Ultimately, it provides the very services that we all hold so dear.

:58:19. > :58:25.Certainly the third uncertainty is all types, very worrying for all of

:58:26. > :58:28.our inhabitants of the island, in sort, lots of uncertainty in effect

:58:29. > :58:37.and that must bill must not add to it. In an unamended form, if passed,

:58:38. > :58:42.it will reduced uncertainly at least partially. The third and main area

:58:43. > :58:46.concerns the work of the EU select committee, who indeed in the other

:58:47. > :58:52.committees of the house, I see noble lord Lord Lang, his accident caused

:58:53. > :59:01.usual committee -- his excellent constitutional committee,... I

:59:02. > :59:05.served with the European Parliament, and it feels very much as it is in

:59:06. > :59:12.the same position as this house is. The same problem from the other end

:59:13. > :59:15.of the telescope, as it were, and we discussed the parliamentary role,

:59:16. > :59:19.particularly during our recent three days in Strasbourg, and those

:59:20. > :59:28.discussions took place with 17 MEPs from 12 countries. On a formal

:59:29. > :59:31.basis. It seems to me and it is difficult sometimes to be absolutely

:59:32. > :59:34.sure of things that they will rely on three things in their own

:59:35. > :59:39.scrutiny of their own process at the other end of the telescope. And they

:59:40. > :59:41.are, firstly, their own committee structures which are weaker than

:59:42. > :59:48.ours, a bit, and secondly undertakings given to them about

:59:49. > :59:54.access to information, and thirdly a special structure where one of their

:59:55. > :00:00.number with staff and indeed with some other MEPs chosen by him, will

:00:01. > :00:04.have a special level of engagement in the process. It struck me that

:00:05. > :00:08.these three things in the round not so different from where this house

:00:09. > :00:13.is, today. At least those MEPs thought that was a reasonable place

:00:14. > :00:18.to be. And therefore it would seem to me it's not so unreasonable for

:00:19. > :00:21.me to agree with that. The EU select committee and other committees of

:00:22. > :00:27.this house are serving up quite a barrage of goodly reports in this

:00:28. > :00:31.process, informing discussion, and providing scrutiny generally. The EU

:00:32. > :00:40.select committee itself has already been remarked as 73 active members

:00:41. > :00:43.members of these house in the structure, the same number again of

:00:44. > :00:46.ex-members on the benches of this house. There are 25 full-time staff,

:00:47. > :00:53.and anyone who has come across them will know what a high-quality staff

:00:54. > :00:56.we have. And since the 23rd of June, we have served up ten reports that

:00:57. > :01:01.have been prevented -- presented for debate in this house, where anyone

:01:02. > :01:04.can have their say, and there are a further seven reports in the

:01:05. > :01:07.pipeline dumbing down and I have some knowledge of what they are like

:01:08. > :01:12.and they are also thought-provoking and helpful, and hopeful to the

:01:13. > :01:17.process. The committees, I would like to recognise, receiving from

:01:18. > :01:22.ministers and from their staff a tremendous level of engagement and I

:01:23. > :01:25.know that personally and in fact there was a minister I was speaking

:01:26. > :01:35.due on Friday he was making me a promise about something. Also the

:01:36. > :01:39.committees of the house are a scrutiny to -- tool, impartial and

:01:40. > :01:42.this house, and I we should use them to their limits and I believe that

:01:43. > :01:48.this path would be far more effective in the end at enabling the

:01:49. > :01:51.nation to achieve a successful Brexit, not successful just for us

:01:52. > :01:59.to give a million but in fact also for the 500 million citizens of the

:02:00. > :02:05.EU. My lords, I would like to just comment on the comment that the Earl

:02:06. > :02:10.AM has made of importance of the committee. But I have been very

:02:11. > :02:12.impressed by the work of the select committees and the way they are

:02:13. > :02:16.impartial in looking at all these issues and I very much regret that

:02:17. > :02:20.they get so little attention in the media because I think they do merit

:02:21. > :02:25.it and it does not often occur. Now, the problem about this debate with

:02:26. > :02:28.so many speakers, which must almost be a record, is that all points one

:02:29. > :02:34.wanted to make have already been made, again, and again, that the

:02:35. > :02:39.time allowed is such that one must be highly selective on what one

:02:40. > :02:44.concentrate on. So I have torn up my original speech. And I will

:02:45. > :02:48.contribute if fume staccato points to indicate broadly where I stand

:02:49. > :02:52.upon them. It is difficult to say anything new. Firstly, I would like

:02:53. > :02:56.to compliment our front bench, the government and ministers, on the

:02:57. > :03:00.front bench for the way in which they have insular that this house

:03:01. > :03:07.has been so fully involved in the observations. In the whole process.

:03:08. > :03:11.-- in the consultations in the process. Our Constitution committee

:03:12. > :03:16.on which I serve and which has been said has been so admirably cheered

:03:17. > :03:20.-- chaired by Lord Lang, we raised earlier on the need to consult

:03:21. > :03:27.Parliament throughout, and I was astonished that the judges that took

:03:28. > :03:31.such black from the media on their judgment on the need to consult

:03:32. > :03:35.Parliament and so on and in relation to what we are now going to do in

:03:36. > :03:37.Article 50 come the need for the legislation parliamentary authority

:03:38. > :03:44.to embark on parliamentary -- Article 50, they insisted on the

:03:45. > :03:50.primacy of Parliament, and I believe that our front bench is really

:03:51. > :03:53.deeply congratulated on the very robust way they are taking forward

:03:54. > :03:59.the council that process. I voted remain. I voted remain not least

:04:00. > :04:04.because very early in my political career and it was a very, very long

:04:05. > :04:10.time ago, at university, I got very involved as he sort of young lad

:04:11. > :04:14.from a coal mining community in Scotland, very involved in the wider

:04:15. > :04:20.debate on the EU and became committed to the belief that we

:04:21. > :04:28.should join the then common market. But despite the fact that I have

:04:29. > :04:31.remained with that view, and that is my remaining position, although I

:04:32. > :04:33.had to say that I did an awful lot of negotiations in the EU win

:04:34. > :04:45.various ministerial roles and I became rather embittered by the fact

:04:46. > :04:54.that in so many of them, there was really a sort of I think I would say

:04:55. > :05:01.the things that I didn't want the EU to be doing. For example.

:05:02. > :05:04.Subsidiarity was paid little attention to in many of our

:05:05. > :05:08.discussions and yet I feel is very important. I became somewhat less

:05:09. > :05:12.enthusiastic but I did vote remain and I remained with that view. I

:05:13. > :05:19.will however be voting yes to this bill for all the reasons that my

:05:20. > :05:23.noble friend Lord Haig outlined. I suspected that I am now a minority

:05:24. > :05:29.when I say that we should not regard that referendum vote as necessarily

:05:30. > :05:32.final. That is what I originally thought but listening to the debate

:05:33. > :05:35.recently and the reason is because I think I am in the same cap as they

:05:36. > :05:41.are. The vote was close, and I think we must remember that vote was very

:05:42. > :05:44.close. It was different in different parts of the countries as the bishop

:05:45. > :05:53.has emphasised in his earlier comments. And so many voters in

:05:54. > :05:57.terms of age groups, as clearly demonstrated, said that it was

:05:58. > :06:00.different and it was close. And so many voters in my belief when

:06:01. > :06:06.talking to them about the referendum...

:06:07. > :06:12.So many voters didn't know what to believe on the different figures

:06:13. > :06:16.that were being bandied about. They were voting not about the EU

:06:17. > :06:19.referendum that about issues they were unhappy about generally, and

:06:20. > :06:25.wanted to make a protest vote. So I don't, this is probably a minority

:06:26. > :06:31.view, but I don't believe that referendum vote should be decided as

:06:32. > :06:36.final. The real issue is what the reaction is to the outcome of the

:06:37. > :06:41.negotiations. That is the final judgment, where it should take

:06:42. > :06:45.place. I read the debates on the other place and I'm still somewhat

:06:46. > :06:49.confused about the timing and process as to the relationships

:06:50. > :06:54.between the vote in our Parliament and in the European Parliament so I

:06:55. > :06:58.wonder if when my honourable friend could clarify what timing and powers

:06:59. > :07:02.of the European Parliament are in this process and in Russian two

:07:03. > :07:05.hours. Next, much has been made about the benefits of the wider

:07:06. > :07:17.trade the cushy oceans with other major economies. -- trade

:07:18. > :07:24.negotiations. As I understand it, these negotiations are normally

:07:25. > :07:28.taken many years, so the benefits could be very slow in coming and

:07:29. > :07:32.some of the discipline of it coming rather faster and I would be

:07:33. > :07:37.interested in the Minister's comments of how that process of

:07:38. > :07:44.wider negotiations will progress. I very strongly support the points of

:07:45. > :07:49.the Lord in his speech on the possible consequences for the

:07:50. > :07:53.universities and the scientific substance of withdrawal, in relation

:07:54. > :07:57.to be funding and possibly the ability to recruit and retain

:07:58. > :08:02.foreign nationals. I have had lots of representations on this point,

:08:03. > :08:06.from agricultural centres, which have a high reputation

:08:07. > :08:11.internationally, they are very concerned about whether they will be

:08:12. > :08:15.able to attract people in the future. Added to that is the

:08:16. > :08:20.position of other EU citizens working in this country and our own

:08:21. > :08:26.citizens in the same situation in EU countries. We are now considerably

:08:27. > :08:31.seeing that it's a worry to businesses as well. The lack of

:08:32. > :08:35.clarity is having practical effects as I gather that evidence is now

:08:36. > :08:39.emerging of Polish workers and others no going back to their

:08:40. > :08:44.countries because of the fear they will not be able to remain here. I

:08:45. > :08:50.know the Prime Minister has this on board and understandably stresses

:08:51. > :08:53.the need for agreement and reciprocity but there is mutual

:08:54. > :08:56.interest between ourselves and the rest of the EU on this issue because

:08:57. > :09:03.there is a similar concern among their citizens, and at least as much

:09:04. > :09:08.as we have. Could I ask, is there any possibility of a fast track

:09:09. > :09:12.process to resolve this at an early stage and remove such misery and

:09:13. > :09:16.uncertainty. Many people? Finally I referred in the early debate to how

:09:17. > :09:26.long I believe this process will take more I was impressed on the

:09:27. > :09:28.earlier speech, it's clear many in this house whose experiences are

:09:29. > :09:35.worth tapping and benefiting from an today is a very good example. It's

:09:36. > :09:40.the pressure to follow the noble Lord, I came into the other place

:09:41. > :09:46.when he was a minister in the government and so was able to listen

:09:47. > :09:51.to him with great interest and I might say great learning then. I'm

:09:52. > :09:57.now privileged to be a member of the EU Select Committee and I'm learning

:09:58. > :10:01.a lot there. I don't intend on the short speech to dwell on the Nokia

:10:02. > :10:09.issues that the committee is dealing with. I want to talk more about the

:10:10. > :10:13.context within which our deliberations in committee and in

:10:14. > :10:20.the chamber are taking place. I leave every meeting of the committee

:10:21. > :10:27.and subcommittee, thinking, this is much more complex than any of us

:10:28. > :10:34.ever thought. And there is not an issue that we are looking at where

:10:35. > :10:43.you realise, as you listen to the different views and the different

:10:44. > :10:51.witnesses, this is very difficult. And therein lies the problem. We are

:10:52. > :10:57.living in a world where complexity is scaring people. We don't need

:10:58. > :11:04.experts, we were famously told. That sort of means, we don't need

:11:05. > :11:14.knowledge. Keep it simple. Keep it in short sentences that can become a

:11:15. > :11:21.slogan. Populism. It is becoming the driver of politics around the world.

:11:22. > :11:24.But some of us know, if nothing else from our history books, but also

:11:25. > :11:33.from the experiences of members of our family, that populism strives on

:11:34. > :11:38.driving division and polarisation of people and countries. Populism

:11:39. > :11:46.doesn't like diversity. It rejects it. And this concern and fear, which

:11:47. > :11:52.has arisen because of globalisation and seeing that the world is so

:11:53. > :11:56.complex, and what globalisation brings, has driven fear of

:11:57. > :12:00.migration, I was born in Sunderland and am really proud but it is

:12:01. > :12:08.monocultural. We don't have that many migrants in the north-east. But

:12:09. > :12:16.people believe what they read about migrants and they are frightened.

:12:17. > :12:25.And yes, for me, one of the great strengths of our country is its

:12:26. > :12:31.travesty. We're not all the same. It is whether things that makes our

:12:32. > :12:38.soft power, the modern indispensable from our work, so effective for this

:12:39. > :12:46.country. But the truth is, this country has been divided by the

:12:47. > :12:51.referendum. The Prime Minister is the most important issue to address.

:12:52. > :12:57.I wish she would put forward her ideas about migration at the

:12:58. > :13:04.beginning. If she put forward proposals about work permits, the

:13:05. > :13:08.people from the European Union, and if you're going to come to this

:13:09. > :13:13.country, you have two contribute in order to be entitled to benefits,

:13:14. > :13:17.for example, that I believe she wouldn't have had to announce that

:13:18. > :13:25.we have the leave the European Union and so on, she would actually happen

:13:26. > :13:27.able to negotiate deals. Many other European countries are looking for

:13:28. > :13:37.that sort of way to tackle migration. But we are where we are

:13:38. > :13:48.as people keep saying. The painful divisions mean that the debate has

:13:49. > :13:52.become, quite honestly, unacceptable. If we talk about the

:13:53. > :13:56.essence of politics which involves compromise, then we are divided.

:13:57. > :14:02.Judges who do their job interpreting the law are derided as enemies of

:14:03. > :14:11.the people, those who disagree with the decisions and direction taken by

:14:12. > :14:14.the government are cast aside as the moaners, not concerned with

:14:15. > :14:18.preventing the will of the people. We point out that the degree of

:14:19. > :14:26.sovereignty will not be absolute, even though agreement will involve

:14:27. > :14:32.some loss of sovereignty, we are seen as not prepared to accept this

:14:33. > :14:35.will of the people. I believe we have to change the tone of the

:14:36. > :14:40.political debate that will be good not just for us as a country and

:14:41. > :14:48.society but for the future negotiations with the EU. The point

:14:49. > :14:56.of Parliament is to solve this disagreement through debate. Poland

:14:57. > :14:59.shouldn't give in to intimidation -- parliament shouldn't give in. This

:15:00. > :15:07.bill is essentially about the right for Parliament to be involved and

:15:08. > :15:15.hopefully to have some control over the process of leaving the European

:15:16. > :15:19.Union. It would be odd if we were to be policed out of that right. We

:15:20. > :15:25.know that feeling has to be confronted, I think we as women know

:15:26. > :15:31.that stop threats are not intimidate me or, I believe, this place. Today

:15:32. > :15:36.and next week, Parliament can take back control of leaving the EU. I

:15:37. > :15:42.hope we will do it in a way that demonstrates we recognise and

:15:43. > :15:48.celebrate the diversity of views and of people in this country. Rather

:15:49. > :15:51.than seek motivation and polarisation, we do what we can to

:15:52. > :16:00.bring people and the country together. My lord, I voted to join

:16:01. > :16:04.the European economic community in 1975 when I was young and optimistic

:16:05. > :16:09.and had little idea what the longer term imprecations were and what this

:16:10. > :16:12.would mean in practice for the British people. Over the last 40

:16:13. > :16:16.years I have spent many happy hours under this machinery at the bottom

:16:17. > :16:20.of the telescope looking upwards, trying to make this labyrinthine and

:16:21. > :16:24.ever-growing institution work in practice in some of our most

:16:25. > :16:28.challenging communities. My colleagues and I have at our fingers

:16:29. > :16:32.burnt on many occasions, in practice the bureaucracy was horrendous and

:16:33. > :16:37.it always paid its invoices late, often 12 months late. Over the last

:16:38. > :16:41.12 years I have been privileged to spend quality time sitting on a

:16:42. > :16:43.number of EU select committees in your lordship is macro house, now

:16:44. > :16:50.looking down this telescope, trying to discover more about which levers

:16:51. > :16:53.are connected to what and how in practice partnerships are happening

:16:54. > :16:57.across the 28 countries that make up this institution. If I'm honest, the

:16:58. > :17:03.experience hasn't filled me with confidence. My sense is been at its

:17:04. > :17:08.simplest that there are lots of setting up of all this machinery,

:17:09. > :17:11.reading the papers at what feels like 6000 feet, unsure who's

:17:12. > :17:16.watching all the complex linkages and leaders that make all of this

:17:17. > :17:20.government work. The real acid test for the general public of this

:17:21. > :17:24.outdated machinery is, can it deliver for the peoples of Europe in

:17:25. > :17:29.practice when it really counts? The last few years, this public is

:17:30. > :17:32.watched children drowning in the Mediterranean, witnessed an

:17:33. > :17:35.organisation that seems to have little if no control of its borders.

:17:36. > :17:40.This institution has not filled people with confidence, lots of

:17:41. > :17:45.meetings, lots of politicians slapping each other on the back of

:17:46. > :17:50.billions of euros spent but can it all deliver all it really counts? My

:17:51. > :17:54.Lords, it has been my position recently is, given the scale and

:17:55. > :17:59.reach of this project, that the British people should be able to

:18:00. > :18:02.visit again the question of our place within the European Union,

:18:03. > :18:06.fundamentally because I worry that there was a democratic legitimacy

:18:07. > :18:09.problem. If people could not understand and crossed its inner

:18:10. > :18:13.workings and had little control over it, and it was right they should

:18:14. > :18:18.have a say as to whether they should travel further down this road. On

:18:19. > :18:22.this occasion I didn't vote, I wanted to hear the British public's

:18:23. > :18:27.response. I did understand that when the British people had decided upon

:18:28. > :18:30.this question, one way or the other, my responsibility as a member of

:18:31. > :18:33.this house was the work with others to ensure this decision was then

:18:34. > :18:40.connected and carried out the best of ability. Questioned, yes, but not

:18:41. > :18:46.undermined and imperfect but legitimate democratic process. Now

:18:47. > :18:49.the British people have decided, it's not our job, however

:18:50. > :18:52.disappointed some of us may be with the result, the play clever

:18:53. > :18:57.political games with what is now the clear wish of the British people to

:18:58. > :19:00.leave. The decision has been made and our job is to pass this

:19:01. > :19:03.legislation and allow the Prime Minister and her team to initiate

:19:04. > :19:08.the negotiation with our colleagues in the European Union. I fear that

:19:09. > :19:11.those who play games at this time undermined the very democracy we

:19:12. > :19:17.live in and people's confidence in it. Amid all the noise I have been

:19:18. > :19:21.impressed by the Prime Minister's calm and considered approach and

:19:22. > :19:24.sense of purpose. It is time, not unquestioningly, to get behind her

:19:25. > :19:30.and pass this legislation for the sake of the peoples of this country.

:19:31. > :19:33.The world is changing and increasingly fast moving. The

:19:34. > :19:37.Internet is the defining principle of our age, the future will be

:19:38. > :19:41.defined for our children by entrepreneurs and innovators in this

:19:42. > :19:45.new century. In this new environment there are real questions as to

:19:46. > :19:49.whether the government and public sector machinery and institutions

:19:50. > :19:54.that we now have our fit for purpose given the global talent as we face.

:19:55. > :19:57.The European project could have renewed this out of date

:19:58. > :20:02.infrastructure will stop I fear many of our people know from personal

:20:03. > :20:05.experience that instead, it is crowning them in treacle and they

:20:06. > :20:10.don't like it. Big impersonal is Titian 's, be they in business or

:20:11. > :20:15.the state, are anathema to the Sage -- impersonal institutions. People

:20:16. > :20:18.have deep experience of red tape every time they pick up the phone,

:20:19. > :20:23.try and take a mortgage out at the moment, they see and experience what

:20:24. > :20:28.is happening in our financial services for example. They don't

:20:29. > :20:31.know whether the EU is to blame, the large unwieldy banks or whoever put

:20:32. > :20:38.it feels like no one is in control any more of the beast and they do

:20:39. > :20:42.not like it. How to drug are a nation of shopkeepers but of

:20:43. > :20:45.entrepreneurs -- our children are a nation. We in this room have

:20:46. > :20:50.experience from the wrong century and we've been it. How deep is our

:20:51. > :20:54.grasp it we are honest with ourselves, of what is actually going

:20:55. > :20:58.on in Fiji machinery operating below us? How many of our politicians down

:20:59. > :21:04.the corridor have ever even thought about this question? My Lords, I

:21:05. > :21:08.suspect in the vote last June, the British people watched and listened

:21:09. > :21:12.to the mini ford claims from politicians, from all sides of our

:21:13. > :21:15.political spectrum, during the referendum campaign, that turned out

:21:16. > :21:21.not to be true and instinctively worried that this machinery in the

:21:22. > :21:26.life of its own and that no one was actually in charge of it.

:21:27. > :21:32.My lords I am an entrepreneur who has spent my life taking problems

:21:33. > :21:35.into opportunities and am optimistic about the challenges we now face

:21:36. > :21:39.because it is laden with possibilities and many people I work

:21:40. > :21:43.with out in the real world are seeing that. People are beginning to

:21:44. > :21:50.turn their sails into this new wind and we need to get behind them.

:21:51. > :21:52.Challenges, yes, but new opportunities, certainly. This new

:21:53. > :21:58.time requires from us all a very different mindset and some of our

:21:59. > :22:02.largest institutions with the most to lose inevitably find this most

:22:03. > :22:07.difficult because so many of their vested interests are tied up in an

:22:08. > :22:10.old order that is now passing away. One of the opportunities we now

:22:11. > :22:15.faces to spend far more time and effort in using this new digital age

:22:16. > :22:19.to reinvent how our public sector works. The modern world of the

:22:20. > :22:22.Internet is about integrated working, our government silos and

:22:23. > :22:27.processes are just profoundly out of date, and yet we carry on as though

:22:28. > :22:33.nothing is changing around us will stop my lords the great repeal bill

:22:34. > :22:36.offers us a rare opportunity to transform bureaucracy and regulatory

:22:37. > :22:43.culture as the noble Lord Lord Howell has suggested. Let us not

:22:44. > :22:52.miss this opportunity, our economy depends upon it. My lords, I want to

:22:53. > :22:56.live in a country that is welcoming, inclusive, tolerant, and creative.

:22:57. > :23:02.And therefore happy and prosperous. But I fear that Britain is heading

:23:03. > :23:05.in a different direction. The referendum seems to have unleashed a

:23:06. > :23:11.wave of anger and intolerance which is truly frightening and dangerous

:23:12. > :23:15.for this country. My lords, I have canvassed in many elections over the

:23:16. > :23:20.years was that one of the most cheering aspects of doing so has

:23:21. > :23:24.been the response. Even from those who say they would not dream of

:23:25. > :23:31.voting for my party, in a million years. But people have been pleasant

:23:32. > :23:38.and polite. But when I campaigned for a remain vote, I was stunned by

:23:39. > :23:42.the irrational hostility I met. And when I dared to raise my concerns

:23:43. > :23:49.over the outcome of the referendum my post bag both virtual and real,

:23:50. > :23:56.it is astonishing people will actually put stamps on these

:23:57. > :24:00.diatribes will stop it was awful. There were plaintive messages from

:24:01. > :24:03.Europe, from UK citizens leaving their completely abandoned. But

:24:04. > :24:14.there were many, many more branding me shut, poor, harlot, scum, and

:24:15. > :24:19.much worse. Encourage no doubt by various more vicious parts of the

:24:20. > :24:24.media these correspondents terrify, and two other people who share my

:24:25. > :24:29.views, they defy the will of the people. My lords it is certainly

:24:30. > :24:37.debatable whether what my right honourable friend Kenneth Clarke

:24:38. > :24:40.referred to as an opinion poll, is a sensible way of determining the will

:24:41. > :24:46.of the people. And I would just like to pay tribute to the one touring MP

:24:47. > :24:55.-- Tory MP who had the courage to defy the will of the whips and

:24:56. > :24:59.follow his conscience. Here, here. But whatever way the public voted in

:25:00. > :25:06.the referendum, I believe it is not only write that the responsibility

:25:07. > :25:12.of those that who believe leaving Europe would be bad, to say so, and

:25:13. > :25:16.not be intimidated by bullies. Sacrifice freedom of speech, and

:25:17. > :25:22.society loses far more than just the debate about Brexit. For those of us

:25:23. > :25:25.in this house who believe that the country is taking a dangerous path

:25:26. > :25:32.without even knowing whether we can turn back, speaking out is not only

:25:33. > :25:38.a right in a responsibility but surely a duty. That position can

:25:39. > :25:44.feel a little lonely over here but I don't believe that we are appointed

:25:45. > :25:52.to this house merely to troop obediently through the lobbies. My

:25:53. > :25:55.lords, I do believe that it would be damaging to this country both

:25:56. > :26:03.economically and socially to leave the EU. Jobs will be lost,

:26:04. > :26:07.particularly in the finance sector which contributes so heavily to the

:26:08. > :26:14.Exchequer and the exits are already beginning. Manufacturing will move,

:26:15. > :26:17.yes we are hearing about investments, now, but for every

:26:18. > :26:20.investment that is being trumpeted there are many others that are being

:26:21. > :26:28.put on hold or even abandoned already. Talent will migrate, top

:26:29. > :26:37.scientists and academics are already voicing concerns about joining

:26:38. > :26:43.organisations in the UK. Perhaps they see themselves as citizens of

:26:44. > :26:47.the world, a concept so despised by the Prime Minister but not by those

:26:48. > :26:54.who prefer a global vision to narrow nationalism. Would it be so

:26:55. > :26:56.surprising if the UK's now perceived hostility to foreigners led these

:26:57. > :27:02.people to conclude they might be more at home elsewhere? My lords,

:27:03. > :27:08.the stock market may look reassuring, now, but it is no guide

:27:09. > :27:14.to how investors rate prospects for UK plc. I fear that a year from now

:27:15. > :27:20.the economy will be looking distinctly less healthy. But I

:27:21. > :27:24.acknowledge that in June last year there was a majority vote advising

:27:25. > :27:30.the government to leave the EU. Hence, it is only right that we

:27:31. > :27:39.begin that process by triggering Article 50. But only if we do so

:27:40. > :27:44.with due caution. Whatever the various motivations people had for

:27:45. > :27:48.casting their ballot, I believe that my right honourable friend and

:27:49. > :27:53.Chancellor of the Exchequer was absolutely right when he said that

:27:54. > :27:59.they didn't vote to get poorer. So it is crucial, absolutely crucial,

:28:00. > :28:06.that there should be a vote on the terms. Instead, the government seems

:28:07. > :28:09.to be adopting a University challenge type approach to this

:28:10. > :28:15.issue. I have started so I will finish. Well, that might work for

:28:16. > :28:24.Chris Yeo, it is not the way to deal with the future of a country. -- it

:28:25. > :28:29.might work for a quiz show. The path with the EU must be put to the

:28:30. > :28:33.parliament in a meaningful vote. Where is the sovereignty of

:28:34. > :28:37.Parliament if that is denied? But there must also be a referendum to

:28:38. > :28:41.determine whether it is the will of the people to leave on those terms,

:28:42. > :28:47.and why would any dedicated Brexiteer object to that? Unless

:28:48. > :28:52.they feared the terms would be unacceptable to a majority. Without

:28:53. > :28:57.this protection I cannot support this bill. The right honourable

:28:58. > :29:03.Margaret Beckett was able to say that she believed the potential

:29:04. > :29:09.consequences of this bill are catastrophic, but she'd vote for it.

:29:10. > :29:15.My lords, I cannot do that. How on earth could I explain let alone

:29:16. > :29:19.justify such behaviour to a grand daughter who I truly believe would

:29:20. > :29:29.be better off if Britain stays in the EU. My lords it is a pleasure to

:29:30. > :29:34.follow Baroness Wheatcroft with whom I agree on many points. Making

:29:35. > :29:39.speeches is what we do but this is certainly one speech I never wanted

:29:40. > :29:43.to have to make. Not because I am still angry and upset because we

:29:44. > :29:47.have decided to leave the European Union and not because I am a bad

:29:48. > :29:53.loser as my leave friends might suggest. And not because I believe

:29:54. > :29:59.that leaving is the biggest mistake we have made as a country in modern

:30:00. > :30:06.times. But because we have prioritised issues of immigration,

:30:07. > :30:10.some valid, others definitely not, over the future strength of our

:30:11. > :30:17.economy. And because of the profoundly damaging effect that this

:30:18. > :30:24.decision will have on the millions of vulnerable people in this country

:30:25. > :30:28.possibly for decades to come. Some 45 years of our country standing

:30:29. > :30:35.shoulder to shoulder with Europe through good times and bad times has

:30:36. > :30:39.meant that our trade, our jobs, our aspirations for a cleaner world, our

:30:40. > :30:46.research and scientific activities, our rights to work, including

:30:47. > :30:51.maternity rights, are safer goods and consumer protection, and our

:30:52. > :30:56.sense of security have become enmeshed with our fellow Europeans.

:30:57. > :31:04.In those 45 years, the UK has become immeasurably better off. That is why

:31:05. > :31:08.we joined Europe, my lords, in the first place, and incidentally why

:31:09. > :31:16.Mrs Thatcher was so keen to be the God mother to the single market once

:31:17. > :31:19.we were in. Yes, years of cooperation and yet we are about to

:31:20. > :31:25.see that cooperation unravel as we go forward with the great divorce.

:31:26. > :31:31.What a great shame, as we set out to unravel over 7000 pieces of

:31:32. > :31:37.legislation, statutory instruments, agency contracts, and countless

:31:38. > :31:41.other decisions. And so, we come to the decision of the supreme Court on

:31:42. > :31:47.the 24th of January. The wording of the court judgment is quite stark

:31:48. > :31:53.and witty. I quite, briefly, you will be glad to know, my lords: the

:31:54. > :31:59.2016 referendum is of great political significance and said the

:32:00. > :32:04.court. However, its legal significance is determined by what

:32:05. > :32:08.Parliament included in the statute authorising it. And that statute

:32:09. > :32:16.simply provided for the referendum to be held. Without specifying the

:32:17. > :32:20.consequences. The change in the law required to amend the referendum's

:32:21. > :32:26.outcome must be made in the only way permitted in the UK constitution,

:32:27. > :32:33.namely by legislation, and of quote. It is perhaps interesting, my Lords,

:32:34. > :32:37.to reflect that now we have the Supreme Court judgment, it would

:32:38. > :32:41.have been entirely possible for a majority of the electorate to have

:32:42. > :32:46.voted remain and for the government subsequently to have brought forward

:32:47. > :32:53.legislation as it is doing now to trigger an Article 50 exit. Lewis

:32:54. > :32:59.Carroll himself could not have invented a better referendum. None

:33:00. > :33:02.will have prizes. Everyone participating in this legislative

:33:03. > :33:06.exercise of the bill's second reading, and now that the government

:33:07. > :33:11.has published the White Paper, which is not so much a starting pistol

:33:12. > :33:15.more a cry for help, everyone must act according to his or her

:33:16. > :33:22.conscience, as he or she answers this question. Which cause of action

:33:23. > :33:28.is best for our country in the light of the referendum result? For, as

:33:29. > :33:36.they say in Game Of Thrones, winter is coming, inadvertently revealing

:33:37. > :33:38.her frayed nerves, the very first line of the Prime Minister's

:33:39. > :33:46.introduction to the White Paper reads: we do not approach these

:33:47. > :33:50.negotiations expecting failure. The truth is, and noble Lords have said

:33:51. > :33:55.this tonight, nobody can including the Prime Minister, knows what to

:33:56. > :34:01.expect because the practical impact of Brexit cannot be controlled by

:34:02. > :34:05.the UK alone. And, in addition, Brexit is now a joint venture

:34:06. > :34:11.between government and Parliament, even with luck on our side, my

:34:12. > :34:17.Lords, the mess can get only messier. And how did it come to pass

:34:18. > :34:19.that the government in trying to buy ale that I could build a negotiating

:34:20. > :34:26.position refused to affirm outright that those EU nationals living here

:34:27. > :34:33.will have what ever happens and automatic and inviolable right to

:34:34. > :34:37.stay? The government is effectively holding them hostage. In all

:34:38. > :34:40.humanity it should have been our clear national position on the day

:34:41. > :34:46.after the referendum to say that there would be no question of

:34:47. > :34:51.altering the status of French, Polish, Spanish and other people

:34:52. > :34:57.living here. They are not bargaining chips, but Brexit seems to be

:34:58. > :35:02.loosening common sense and I'm afraid common decency sometimes. The

:35:03. > :35:08.Brexit minister has listed the 12 pillars of our national position in

:35:09. > :35:11.the forthcoming negotiations. The 12 pillars of Hercules. And I can try

:35:12. > :35:16.to sum up one of them will stop let's leave the common market. But

:35:17. > :35:23.then let's see if we can reinvent it under another name. We are

:35:24. > :35:28.effectively saying to our European partners it will be OK if we leave

:35:29. > :35:33.one day, and then come back the next, wearing a new hat. Some people

:35:34. > :35:39.get euphoric about the resounding Article 50 vote in the House of

:35:40. > :35:45.Commons. What is it that Kenneth Wilson used to say? They think it's

:35:46. > :35:49.all over. In fact it has hardly begun, my lords, a match that will

:35:50. > :35:53.be played over many years, in many stadiums, through many different

:35:54. > :35:58.competitions, with many changing Dean -- team sheets and shifts in

:35:59. > :36:03.tactics. To those outside the house who say that the House of Lords has

:36:04. > :36:07.no right to amend this Bill, I say stop threatening us and let us get

:36:08. > :36:13.on with our constitutional duty. The one we all tried to carry out

:36:14. > :36:17.everyday to act and speak and vote responsibly, according to our

:36:18. > :36:19.consciences, and the best interests of the United Kingdom, and that is

:36:20. > :36:31.what we will do, my lords. I followed to speakers who have

:36:32. > :36:39.explained extremely effectively the problem that Brexit will bring. My

:36:40. > :36:45.Lords, our country budget 52% to 48% to leave the European Union, in one

:36:46. > :36:49.sense that is a clear result. However the 52% who voted to leave,

:36:50. > :36:55.a number did so in expectation that we would revert to Norway style

:36:56. > :37:00.arrangement or something similar to it which would continue to give

:37:01. > :37:05.access to the single market. Indeed the Conservative Party encouraged

:37:06. > :37:09.that view. In its general election manifesto in 2015, it said that

:37:10. > :37:13.there should be in in-out referendum, and it promised to

:37:14. > :37:19.honour the result. It also said that a Conservative government would, "

:37:20. > :37:24.safeguard British interests in the single market. The manifesto

:37:25. > :37:30.suggested we could stay in the single market with the words, "We

:37:31. > :37:36.say yes to the single market". So what is the government now interpret

:37:37. > :37:40.the result is a vote for a hard Brexit in which we leave the single

:37:41. > :37:46.market and the customs union with all the dangers that a hard Brexit

:37:47. > :37:52.will inevitably lead to? I submit that there is no majority in our

:37:53. > :37:57.country for a hard Brexit. The referendum result was a decision to

:37:58. > :38:04.leave the EU did was not a decision on exactly what should happen next.

:38:05. > :38:09.In opening a second reading debate, the leader of the house said that a

:38:10. > :38:15.good deal will be one that works for all parts of the United Kingdom. My

:38:16. > :38:20.Lords, I agree with that aim. But I wonder how this will be done when

:38:21. > :38:23.the Prime Minister has that issues of immigration and justice a head of

:38:24. > :38:27.protecting our economy and jobs, which need access to the single

:38:28. > :38:34.market and Customs union to maximise both our exports and our inward

:38:35. > :38:38.investment. My name is attached to an amendment for committee stage in

:38:39. > :38:43.the name of Baroness Queen, that asks for the assessment to be

:38:44. > :38:48.undertaken at the impact of Brexit on the economy of the north-east of

:38:49. > :38:53.England before Article 50 is triggered. The same principle could

:38:54. > :38:57.apply to all parts of the UK because it is vital that the government

:38:58. > :39:03.understands that different parts of the UK are not the same in their

:39:04. > :39:08.dependency on the EU for manufacturing exports and jobs. The

:39:09. > :39:14.north-east of England needs access to overseas markets for its

:39:15. > :39:19.products. 50% of north-east exports go to the European Union. Leaving

:39:20. > :39:25.the single market and the customs union will put that huge success at

:39:26. > :39:30.risk. So I asked the minister, what the government plans to do to secure

:39:31. > :39:34.continued, private sector, inward investment in the north-east of

:39:35. > :39:40.England, and across the whole of the UK, once we have left the EU and

:39:41. > :39:48.develop the free trade agreement we already have with the other 27

:39:49. > :39:52.countries of the European Union. Just one generation ago 6 million

:39:53. > :39:59.people worked in manufacturing this country. There are half that number

:40:00. > :40:04.and now, with many people forced to work in low-paid jobs insecure terms

:40:05. > :40:10.and conditions of service. How Brexit help the poor part of the UK

:40:11. > :40:17.improve activity and drive growth and investment in higher value jobs

:40:18. > :40:21.will be put at risk? I have come to the conclusion the government is not

:40:22. > :40:28.in control of events. It seems to think its role now is just to add Mr

:40:29. > :40:33.a hard Brexit. When most people in this country want it to show

:40:34. > :40:39.leadership by negotiating a soft Brexit. And probably the most

:40:40. > :40:45.vacuous political slogan I've had in recent times is that Brexit means of

:40:46. > :40:49.Brexit. If that means that we have the fallback on World Trade

:40:50. > :40:52.Organisation rules, it is very bad news for regions with manufacturing

:40:53. > :40:59.exports that benefit zero tariffs to the EE. The Prime Minister is on

:41:00. > :41:02.record as wanting a frictionless system of exporting. That is not

:41:03. > :41:08.with the government is actually doing as it removes us from the

:41:09. > :41:12.single market and the customs union. Huge friction will result from our

:41:13. > :41:17.departure from the European Union. My Lords, for all these reasons I

:41:18. > :41:21.have concluded that a final decision on whether to accept the terms

:41:22. > :41:27.negotiated for exiting the EU in two years' time, must be taken by the

:41:28. > :41:31.people in full knowledge of all the indications on the advice of

:41:32. > :41:34.Parliament. That is not about reopening the result of the

:41:35. > :41:38.referendum last year but it is about asking people to confirm the actual

:41:39. > :41:45.terms of Brexit are satisfactory to them. Voters gave the government

:41:46. > :41:49.essence of direction last year by putting to leave the EE but they did

:41:50. > :41:52.not say what they wanted the government to negotiate in its

:41:53. > :41:56.place. -- leave the year. So they should have the right to confirm or

:41:57. > :42:05.not what the government achieves from its forthcoming negotiations.

:42:06. > :42:15.The European Union is not a perfect institution as we reminded earlier

:42:16. > :42:18.on. It needs major reform. But the problems of today's world require

:42:19. > :42:27.international solutions to our problems. And the European Union is

:42:28. > :42:34.a very successful example of close international working, and it will

:42:35. > :42:39.not be in our best interest to turn aside from all the advantages

:42:40. > :42:48.membership has given us. We do not want to promote narrow nationalism

:42:49. > :42:52.is. The bill we are debating tonight is short, but it certainly isn't

:42:53. > :43:01.sweet, at least not for the person like myself who voted last June to

:43:02. > :43:04.remain in the European Union. It now... The Prime Minister exhorted

:43:05. > :43:11.us to believe that leaving the European Union leads to a brighter

:43:12. > :43:15.future for our children and grandchildren to. I am sorry to

:43:16. > :43:21.disappoint the Prime Minister but neither I nor my grandchildren

:43:22. > :43:26.believe that. It remains my view that we will be less prosperous,

:43:27. > :43:31.less secure, and less influential in the world and we would have been had

:43:32. > :43:37.we decided to stay in the EU, but that was not the view taken by the

:43:38. > :43:41.majority of those who voted, and I respect and accept, as I have done

:43:42. > :43:46.since the 24th of June, that it would not be proper or correct for

:43:47. > :43:50.this house to frustrate the triggering of Article 50. I only

:43:51. > :43:55.wish that the ardent supporters of Brexit, some of them in this house,

:43:56. > :44:00.would cease immigrating and trying to suppress the views of those who

:44:01. > :44:09.think, as I do, that surely is an democratic approach as you can get.

:44:10. > :44:12.-- undemocratic. Supporters have listed a small part of the veil in

:44:13. > :44:16.which the government has shrouded its policies since the referendum,

:44:17. > :44:22.but we have not yet seen more than a glimpse of its ankle and we have not

:44:23. > :44:26.been given a single metric or impact assessment on the choices of

:44:27. > :44:32.government has already made and is preparing to make more of. Not a

:44:33. > :44:36.figure has emerged setting out the various options, and costing them,

:44:37. > :44:44.since those published last March from which the new government has

:44:45. > :44:49.now changed. Not a word about the shape of the new immigration regime,

:44:50. > :44:55.the altar on which our member of the single market is to be sacrificed,

:44:56. > :44:59.not on how the government proposes to prepare and sustain the Common

:45:00. > :45:03.travel area with Ireland and abroad the winning position of border

:45:04. > :45:08.controls on goods moving between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

:45:09. > :45:15.The government assures us that they had been conducting detailed studies

:45:16. > :45:20.of all these factors, every part of the economy, but have not shown us

:45:21. > :45:27.the results of any of those studies. Perhaps the results are too alarming

:45:28. > :45:30.to be shown. But we are being asked by a pig in a poke, what can we say

:45:31. > :45:36.about the choices the government has made already? It was surely in my

:45:37. > :45:42.view on ways to make a primitive decision to leave the single market,

:45:43. > :45:45.without any idea of what the alternatives might be negotiable --

:45:46. > :45:50.unwise. On issues relating to freedom of movement, under great

:45:51. > :45:56.stress at the moment within the European Union, might it not have

:45:57. > :46:01.been better to see how much possibility might be available in 18

:46:02. > :46:06.months' time, rather decide now that we were not even conflict that fixed

:46:07. > :46:10.ability? Is the customs union, if our partners can understand what the

:46:11. > :46:17.government said in the White Paper and arbiter at Reading rules than I

:46:18. > :46:21.am. It is helpful however that the government has begun to face up to

:46:22. > :46:25.the fact that we do need a dispute settlement siege as part of our new

:46:26. > :46:33.partnership. They haven't got very far. It is truly staggering that a

:46:34. > :46:37.government which accepts the compulsory George session of the

:46:38. > :46:44.International Criminal Court, the European Union Court of Human

:46:45. > :46:49.Rights, of the dispute settlement procedures of the WTO and of the law

:46:50. > :46:52.of the seashore to concede such a horror as the European Court of

:46:53. > :46:59.justice, despite the fact that the court is often handed down judgment

:47:00. > :47:02.of great benefit to this country, striking down restrictive practices

:47:03. > :47:10.and the dealing with state aids which were illegal, and dealing with

:47:11. > :47:14.tariff barriers to trade. Of course it is my judgment in that time which

:47:15. > :47:19.we didn't like but so of course have our own Supreme Court, as the

:47:20. > :47:24.government has discovered recently. It with this paucity of information

:47:25. > :47:29.and this degree of obfuscation, what can and should we be doing when we

:47:30. > :47:33.look at the deal? The most important thing is to make sure that when a

:47:34. > :47:40.deal is struck on it is clear that a deal cannot be struck, both houses

:47:41. > :47:45.are seized of the outcome in a timely manner, enabling them to make

:47:46. > :47:48.decisions and to avoid the cliff edge which the Prime Minister quite

:47:49. > :47:54.rightly wish to avoid. Some assurances have been given to this

:47:55. > :48:01.effect in the other place, but they are fairly vague and no doubt

:48:02. > :48:07.capable of almost any amount. The Putin -- misleading use. The

:48:08. > :48:10.provisions on this point clearly need to go on the face of the bill.

:48:11. > :48:15.And since the government has conceded the principle, it shouldn't

:48:16. > :48:21.be too difficult to do that. One concluding thought, the UK really

:48:22. > :48:24.does need to concentrate on the positive aspects of its vision for a

:48:25. > :48:30.new partnership, to establish a prospect of mutual benefit without

:48:31. > :48:35.which any hope of a positive outcome for negotiations will simply not

:48:36. > :48:41.materialise. They have begun to do this on foreign policy, and European

:48:42. > :48:45.security, unscientific co-operation and law enforcement and internal

:48:46. > :48:52.security, but so far in far too tentative and hesitant of way. We

:48:53. > :48:57.need to face outwards, towards our past and future partners, not

:48:58. > :49:03.backwards towards those who reject everything about the European Union.

:49:04. > :49:06.Our face does need to be smiling and not a snarling one, and that

:49:07. > :49:16.particularly to the 3 million citizens from other European

:49:17. > :49:21.countries who live and work here. My Lords, this isn't the first time

:49:22. > :49:26.that we have considered this subject and it's worth and bring that the

:49:27. > :49:30.last summit happens, it was Prime Minister Wilson who decided to hold

:49:31. > :49:37.a referendum for very similar reasons that David Cameron had at

:49:38. > :49:42.the time. I have to say that in 1975, I was very very keen on

:49:43. > :49:48.joining the European Union, exactly like fellow colleagues, I thought it

:49:49. > :49:56.was a great trading area, a great opportunity. I saw a great deal in

:49:57. > :50:00.the votes because it took place in Olympia which is part of my own

:50:01. > :50:05.constituency at the time. I spent a lot of time in Brussels, in 1975I

:50:06. > :50:12.started to go to Brussels many times, I negotiated, many people

:50:13. > :50:16.here have negotiated, and I know the advantage of a house like this, with

:50:17. > :50:23.his experience and wisdom and knowledge, many of us had friends in

:50:24. > :50:27.Brussels, in art, education, we share enormous friendship between

:50:28. > :50:34.us. What we are discussing today is Brexit. I don't know about anybody

:50:35. > :50:38.else but I know Lord Hennessey is but at this and I am, as far as I'm

:50:39. > :50:43.concerned, we're taking a view for the next 200 years. We're not taking

:50:44. > :50:48.a view about next month or two months' time. If we go back

:50:49. > :50:52.hysterically for over 350 years, we actually played the part of being

:50:53. > :50:57.the power broker between France and Germany.

:50:58. > :51:02.After World War I someone mentioned of our foreign policy that we

:51:03. > :51:07.haven't had a foreign policy since after World War II. At that

:51:08. > :51:14.particular time, what did we do? We won the war with our allies, but we

:51:15. > :51:20.lost the peace. And we also had the terrible situation of having to live

:51:21. > :51:25.with losing an empire at the same time. People forget that the common

:51:26. > :51:29.market that by 1960 and 1970 was in a dreadful mess economic latecomer

:51:30. > :51:33.race days were over, those who think that somehow or other it has been

:51:34. > :51:38.sweet running all the way through should look back on the history of

:51:39. > :51:44.that period. We reckon we were a bunch of losers who we would be much

:51:45. > :51:50.better with Europe, and it is only of recent late, fax three

:51:51. > :51:57.parliaments ago when in practice the Queen's speech said we must we

:51:58. > :52:03.engage with the world because we had been not doing so. If I could make

:52:04. > :52:07.this point. The EU as I said, I have spent a great deal of time there, as

:52:08. > :52:11.many of you have, but as most of my life as a businessman, all the way

:52:12. > :52:16.through, in negotiating. And I think the role the government is is quite

:52:17. > :52:19.right. Looking at it practically, you are looking at it as a

:52:20. > :52:24.negotiation, and remember that the Prime Minister made the that we want

:52:25. > :52:29.to finish off dealing with partners. I hate the word deal. We negotiate

:52:30. > :52:33.with partners, we don't do deals with them because we want to be

:52:34. > :52:38.ongoing doing more business in the years to come. Therefore a clean

:52:39. > :52:42.break, pulling right out of the internal market, not the single

:52:43. > :52:47.market, the internal market, and all the aspects of it does give one much

:52:48. > :52:50.a better position to be able to negotiate in the future. People

:52:51. > :52:56.always talk about European citizens. Doesn't exist. There is not such a

:52:57. > :53:02.thing as a European citizen, you are a citizen of a nation state, and

:53:03. > :53:05.that statement 28 states, you are a citizen of that state you are not a

:53:06. > :53:11.citizen of Europe, this often forgotten. But in the ultimate, the

:53:12. > :53:14.only thing I have believed in looking back historically if you

:53:15. > :53:19.have not got economic strength you have no strength anywhere. The

:53:20. > :53:28.collapse of the USSR demonstrated that in spades. But what I am

:53:29. > :53:31.seeing, since back in June, when I came out publicly because Michael

:53:32. > :53:36.Gove and Boris Johnson said to me that many politicians speak but no

:53:37. > :53:40.industrialists, will you come out publicly and say why it is you are

:53:41. > :53:43.going to be doing what you are doing customer I truly believe that we

:53:44. > :53:48.have a great opportunity with the rest of the world, and my own

:53:49. > :53:51.company which has been around 200 years, has been operating in the far

:53:52. > :53:57.east since about a June $40 and there is no novelty in doing

:53:58. > :54:00.business out there. But I have been seen of late is very interesting.

:54:01. > :54:05.When I told friends I was going to vote for Brexit, I was almost

:54:06. > :54:08.ostracised, I mean, people really had a go at me at dinner parties, in

:54:09. > :54:13.differing ways, saying what the hell are you doing? So I said to them,

:54:14. > :54:16.you know, this is how I feel about it but what is very interesting of

:54:17. > :54:21.latecomer friends in the city, in business, in major companies, one

:54:22. > :54:25.after the other now that time has gone on our saying I think we can

:54:26. > :54:31.handle this. I think there are ways we can change it, and I think in

:54:32. > :54:35.some ways, it is very much of trade, transport, tourism, in many areas it

:54:36. > :54:41.is going to be better for us. On that front. So what I am saying is

:54:42. > :54:44.that we are seeing increasingly now a attitude of mind that it is let's

:54:45. > :54:50.get on with it, we are doing it for a very, very long run and we want to

:54:51. > :54:57.finish up by purely making the observation that I really do think

:54:58. > :54:59.that it is the right thing to show to our friends, I use the word

:55:00. > :55:08.friends, in Europe that we really mean change. And we are going to do

:55:09. > :55:14.it. I will read something to you. EU standards have taken us through war

:55:15. > :55:19.and oppression. On that last bit I have the advantage of my age. I was

:55:20. > :55:25.born in the depression and I certainly grew up in the time of war

:55:26. > :55:29.but we weren't occupied, we had have been committed might have been dust.

:55:30. > :55:35.Their successors, who did not, must now think afresh about the continent

:55:36. > :55:40.and its needs. The past holds an important lesson in integration,

:55:41. > :55:43.trusting, growth and appointment, where it mattered more than

:55:44. > :55:47.unfettered cabinet movement and when fiscal policy accounted for more

:55:48. > :55:52.than monetary policy. Today the leaders will also need to do

:55:53. > :55:55.discover something of the far-sightedness of the early

:55:56. > :56:02.generations, and like them they will need to show that the union can help

:56:03. > :56:08.conditions not hurt them and that capitalism and democracy can be

:56:09. > :56:10.reconciled. -- reconciled. In a globalising world and in a union

:56:11. > :56:14.with five times more members than the original group, it'll take a

:56:15. > :56:22.real effort of historical imagination and reinvention. But

:56:23. > :56:29.without it, EU is living on borrowed time. This was written by Professor

:56:30. > :56:34.Lazar, the professor of industry at Columbia University in the state of.

:56:35. > :56:38.I wanted to say that in the long-term we will be able to live

:56:39. > :56:42.happily with Europe and defend its like we did in 1940 and onwards,

:56:43. > :56:47.defence is a huge factor, and I would like to feel that they would

:56:48. > :56:51.be able to reinvent themselves and we will all get on well with each

:56:52. > :56:54.other in the centuries to come down next month. My lords I would like to

:56:55. > :57:13.follow on the themes picked up by a my noble friends. They have all

:57:14. > :57:21.drawn attention to the fallacy that the Prime Minister seems to believe

:57:22. > :57:28.and we have to assume she believes it... Letters assume that she does

:57:29. > :57:35.believe it that there is no alternative to where she is heading.

:57:36. > :57:43.And in particular that this includes leaving the internal market. Now, of

:57:44. > :57:49.course, many political leaders over the years have used the phrase there

:57:50. > :57:54.is no alternative and in many cases it is always used as a note also do.

:57:55. > :58:00.But tautology. There is an alternative is made to the package

:58:01. > :58:05.that Mrs may brings back to Westminster. Well, that is

:58:06. > :58:12.tautological. I think there is something tautological about the way

:58:13. > :58:17.this whole argument is going. The fact is that the government, and I

:58:18. > :58:24.would like to ask the noble Lord the minister who is expected all these

:58:25. > :58:32.in all these matters, is it merely the case that the government has not

:58:33. > :58:42.done a cost benefit analysis in terms on each of the models of

:58:43. > :58:47.trade, tariffs and so on, has been done by the EU subcommittee,

:58:48. > :58:55.particularly in the report on trade options, trade by my noble friend

:58:56. > :59:02.Lord Wittig. This report has incidentally been the one as he

:59:03. > :59:12.pointed out which concluded that the option for Britain which would be

:59:13. > :59:20.least disruptive to trade and indeed was most favoured by industrialists

:59:21. > :59:27.was the EEA option, of which it so happens I got a amendment down a

:59:28. > :59:31.week today at committee. This would entail staying in the single market

:59:32. > :59:36.on these particular terms and some adjustment of freedom of movement

:59:37. > :59:47.meaning that we would rejoin a club in the process, but that is for next

:59:48. > :59:50.week. So... The reason why I think the government has got themselves in

:59:51. > :59:56.a state of considerable confusion is that they believe a lots of the

:59:57. > :00:08.rhetoric of some of the wilder extremes of the Brexit supporters in

:00:09. > :00:15.believing that somehow Britain uniquely wants to be involved in

:00:16. > :00:21.words trade that world trade, and there is a contradiction there being

:00:22. > :00:28.involved in European trade? Well, I do know whether it has not occurred

:00:29. > :00:35.to people at press this point that Germany, the most successful

:00:36. > :00:45.exporter in the world, the German chair of world trade, world market

:00:46. > :00:49.share, as the Germans call it, which we are also been treated in that

:00:50. > :00:53.Germans are interested in world mark share and do it very effectively.

:00:54. > :01:00.That is in Europe and in the rest of the world. So there is no antithesis

:01:01. > :01:06.between those two. And on the internal market, the idea that it's

:01:07. > :01:13.all useless, obstructive regulation as the point has been made, I would

:01:14. > :01:17.just one example. How do you expect trains to run on all the different

:01:18. > :01:23.European railway systems unless there one system of signalling? And

:01:24. > :01:33.that example can be taken along many, many other examples. Now, all

:01:34. > :01:38.of this does relate to the future workers in this country, and I would

:01:39. > :01:46.like to give the last half of my remarks to kick this question of how

:01:47. > :01:53.is it that we have got in a position where people think that somehow for

:01:54. > :01:58.this so-called frictionless market which we actually have at the moment

:01:59. > :02:05.that we need to spend what is it, $60 billion or something, why don't

:02:06. > :02:12.we stay in this market and is this not exactly what people in Vauxhall,

:02:13. > :02:18.people in the aerospace industry, etc, etc, etc are actually telling

:02:19. > :02:22.the government? Let alone on the labour movement side, people in

:02:23. > :02:27.financial services and so on. So there are a lot of myths about the

:02:28. > :02:32.post working class, a phrase which many people were telling me for

:02:33. > :02:35.many, many years that is a term which is out of date and does not

:02:36. > :02:43.exist any more. Now I am told it does exist. People are voting out

:02:44. > :02:49.who have an anchor about the model world and -- and anxious about the

:02:50. > :02:54.modern world. The slogan is stop the world, I want to get off. Well, I

:02:55. > :02:58.don't know where you can stop the world or not but it is jolly

:02:59. > :03:07.difficult to get off, and I think that we have a problem now in people

:03:08. > :03:10.being involved, I was a member of the committee on industrial

:03:11. > :03:16.democracy and in the last 30 years we have lost any idea that the

:03:17. > :03:20.average worker should be heavily involved in the strategic issues

:03:21. > :03:25.like world market share, and that the main goal of organised work is

:03:26. > :03:31.that the company and their industry can increase its world market share?

:03:32. > :03:36.Now I have run out of time but I would just like to say in conclusion

:03:37. > :03:40.that I think that's when it comes to the so-called great repeal Bill we

:03:41. > :03:45.would have a better explanation of how this is supposed to relating to

:03:46. > :03:48.the state of negotiations and that we can have a cost benefit analysis

:03:49. > :03:56.of all the different trade options, and not be told that there is no

:03:57. > :04:00.alternative. My lords, the great achievement of Europe in the last 72

:04:01. > :04:05.years has been to change the pattern of history. To change the pattern of

:04:06. > :04:10.history from walls constant wars, pogrom is, and the like, to peace

:04:11. > :04:16.throughout western and Central Europe. And I would like to start

:04:17. > :04:20.with a plea to ministers that when they start on this difficult

:04:21. > :04:25.negotiation which will be triggered in March, they should not for one

:04:26. > :04:32.moment lose sight of the importance of sustaining peace and security in

:04:33. > :04:39.Europe. To me that is far more important than the single market or

:04:40. > :04:44.the customs union. For our very survival depends on it. I am one of

:04:45. > :04:49.the lucky. My funny basher ago my father was born in 1904 was first a

:04:50. > :04:55.refugee in 1915 when he was evacuated from his native eastern

:04:56. > :04:59.Poland as the Russians laid a scorched earth policy across the

:05:00. > :05:08.territory. He spent three years as a refugee in Vienna. He next was a

:05:09. > :05:15.refugee on the 20th of June 1940 when a collier carried him from la

:05:16. > :05:19.Rochelle ultimately to Glasgow where he became a refugee in the United

:05:20. > :05:26.Kingdom and remained for the rest of his life. My mother was a refugee.

:05:27. > :05:33.She was a defector who defected from her job in the Polish foreign

:05:34. > :05:41.service in 1946 to come to Britain and to narrow my father. So I have

:05:42. > :05:47.had the great good fortune of my family being treated to great

:05:48. > :05:55.grandiosity by the United Kingdom, a refugee family which I hope has

:05:56. > :05:56.given good service to this country throughout the couple of generations

:05:57. > :06:06.that followed. Even before we were members of the

:06:07. > :06:12.European Union, and I don't suggest that our mentorship is a key to the

:06:13. > :06:16.peace and security of Europe, we helped to establish those

:06:17. > :06:21.institutions can the coal and steel community, the EEC, which gave

:06:22. > :06:24.Europe the stability that it has the first time. And I don't think we

:06:25. > :06:33.should lose sight of that for one moment. I'd turn out detect the

:06:34. > :06:42.cavities of this bill. -- telnet to protect the cavities of this bill.

:06:43. > :06:48.-- the technicalities. My noble friend, I believe that the

:06:49. > :06:54.referendum changes dynamics by which we consider this bill. We don't just

:06:55. > :07:01.have a bill, we also have a plebiscite. And my judgment is that

:07:02. > :07:06.it would be irresponsible and even unconstitutional of this house to

:07:07. > :07:14.refuse a second reading to this bill. Because if we refuse a second

:07:15. > :07:19.reading to this bill, indeed if we insist on any significant

:07:20. > :07:25.amendments, we will be creating turmoil and a challenge between the

:07:26. > :07:35.public and this parliament which will bring it into even greater

:07:36. > :07:38.disrepute than it already has. So that is this chapter, my Lords, in

:07:39. > :07:45.this chapter, we have to allow the bill to go through, if necessary,

:07:46. > :07:52.unamended. But then comes the next chapter. The government has given a

:07:53. > :07:59.welcome undertaking, as I understand it, that both houses will be given a

:08:00. > :08:07.vote on the withdrawal arrangements, and did Dejagah's relationship with

:08:08. > :08:12.the EU, before any agreement is concluded -- the UK's relationship.

:08:13. > :08:21.I would love to see more clarity as to what it means. But what is more

:08:22. > :08:25.important is if at the stage where Article 50 has been triggered, and

:08:26. > :08:32.the negotiations have been completed, it is the opinion of

:08:33. > :08:35.Parliament that the arrangements are supposed that the first to the

:08:36. > :08:43.national interest, that is no longer the responsibility of the referendum

:08:44. > :08:46.of last June. Nor should we ask for a further referendum, which sounds

:08:47. > :08:53.to me awfully like liking Joe Schmidt and wanting more. --

:08:54. > :08:58.knocking punishment. If we judge as a parliament in both houses, that

:08:59. > :09:03.the arrangements which have been agreed to the detriment of the

:09:04. > :09:08.national interest compared with the alternatives, or if they endanger

:09:09. > :09:14.security in Europe, at that point, we will be properly informed as to

:09:15. > :09:19.what has been discussed. We will be properly informed as to what has

:09:20. > :09:25.been provisionally agreed, and we will then be exercising our

:09:26. > :09:29.constitutional role if it be the case that what is agreed is

:09:30. > :09:40.unsatisfactory, to reject it. That seems to me to be the correct

:09:41. > :09:44.constitutional analysis. I would first like to congratulate the Prime

:09:45. > :09:47.Minister and government on the professional, cautious and polite

:09:48. > :09:56.way in which they have managed Brexit proceedings. And I think

:09:57. > :10:00.there is no surprise that the Prime Minister has a substantial amount of

:10:01. > :10:07.the country behind her. We also all know this is a short, very simple

:10:08. > :10:12.bill which is about enabling the Prime Minister to give the EU

:10:13. > :10:17.commission notice on our intention to quit. I ask myself therefore, why

:10:18. > :10:26.is it that they have been so many speeches, so many speeches to come,

:10:27. > :10:31.in both houses and what I think is this. All of my lifetime, the big

:10:32. > :10:37.political issue, often lurking and not discussed, has been, what is the

:10:38. > :10:45.right religion ship between the UK and Europe? -- relationship. 20

:10:46. > :10:50.years, I've said conservative friends, this shouldn't be just

:10:51. > :10:53.pushed to the back of a corner, it needs to be faced up to and

:10:54. > :10:57.addressed and they will often say, no one is interested in it, they

:10:58. > :11:00.care about the national Health Service. And I have always said,

:11:01. > :11:04.give them the opportunity to be interested and you will be amazed,

:11:05. > :11:07.and look what happened. People were eventually given a referendum and we

:11:08. > :11:15.haven't seen such a turnout even at the general election. That is why

:11:16. > :11:20.there has been, reflected in both Houses of Parliament, so wish of

:11:21. > :11:27.people to say and express their own thoughts and perceptions about our

:11:28. > :11:35.relationship with Europe. I am pleased that we have seen none of

:11:36. > :11:43.the opposition political parties intend to disrupt and frustrate the

:11:44. > :11:48.calling of Article 50 and I think it would be inappropriate so to do, and

:11:49. > :11:53.tantamount to telling citizens that they don't know what they were

:11:54. > :12:08.doing, and being offensive towards them. I voted Brexit, simply because

:12:09. > :12:12.I subjected to removal of the... The gradual removal of the democracy we

:12:13. > :12:18.have spent 1000 years establishing, but I would make the point, the

:12:19. > :12:22.obvious huge issue for the EU, going forward, is the terrible mistake of

:12:23. > :12:27.adopting euro. If you tried to share the same currency among very

:12:28. > :12:32.different economic areas and particularly with no transfer

:12:33. > :12:39.payments, you will eventually get an explosion. I wrote a book in 1988,

:12:40. > :12:47.about exchange rates, and even then, I made the point that unless Italy

:12:48. > :12:50.had the ability to be able to devalue parodic live it would be a

:12:51. > :12:56.financial collapse in Italy, that led to a disruption of what people

:12:57. > :13:05.will try to build there and I still think that that is the great risk

:13:06. > :13:17.facing us. I think that everyone has known that the referendum was a

:13:18. > :13:22.legitimate way of seeking the view of citizens and it was intended that

:13:23. > :13:27.government would follow, whatever way people voted. But my big

:13:28. > :13:33.question, which I have never really had a satisfactory answer to, is as

:13:34. > :13:42.to why, unlike the PR referendum, it wasn't actually a referendum where

:13:43. > :13:45.the result was legally binding. It's really a rather strange situation

:13:46. > :13:51.where everyone understood that government would do whichever way

:13:52. > :13:58.people voted, but there was no requirement so to do, and I think

:13:59. > :14:05.that has to some extent because of problems. I think personally, it

:14:06. > :14:11.actually is correct that Parliament should authorise the Prime Minister

:14:12. > :14:14.to go ahead and activate Article 50, one of the things I have always been

:14:15. > :14:22.uncomfortable about in terms of how the EU has actually pushed a lot of

:14:23. > :14:25.the law into our legal system, has been the use of the royal

:14:26. > :14:33.prerogative and I would have found it rather ironic if the prerogative

:14:34. > :14:42.was actually used by the Brexit camp. I was pleased and surprised at

:14:43. > :14:47.the 384 majority in the Commons and I think that reflected very much

:14:48. > :14:55.that no one wanted to be seen to be sporting the will of the people. And

:14:56. > :15:02.secondly, it reflected the popularity of the May government,

:15:03. > :15:06.and people are clear the bill is not about whether we believe the vote

:15:07. > :15:14.was about that but it is about enabling the PM to implement

:15:15. > :15:22.people's wishes as expressed in the referendum. I think there is also an

:15:23. > :15:30.irony in that the judicial review, which the Remain camp sought and

:15:31. > :15:33.achieved, has actually served to if anything, strengthen the

:15:34. > :15:49.government's position, and there is somewhat of an irony in that the

:15:50. > :15:53.supporters of... Of Remain,... Have argued that they are keen on

:15:54. > :15:59.parliamentary democracy here but they have been fairly happy for it

:16:00. > :16:08.to have been eroded by the EU over the past 30 or 40 years and those

:16:09. > :16:18.supporting Leave have... Have supported... The democratic

:16:19. > :16:24.situation, that the democratic cause, part of the whole process of

:16:25. > :16:32.having this boat is to fall in with parliamentary case. So we are where

:16:33. > :16:42.we are, I think we all know that this bill is just about the

:16:43. > :16:50.mechanics, it has to be successful for Article 50 to be activated, it

:16:51. > :16:55.also has this extraordinary involvement of Euratom and I read

:16:56. > :17:00.with interest the library comments on it where they seemed to take the

:17:01. > :17:03.view that there were legal cases on the one hand and the other were

:17:04. > :17:13.equally strong, and therefore perhaps it was safer to include

:17:14. > :17:19.Euratom rather than to avoid. I'm also pleased the Commons voted 6-1

:17:20. > :17:30.to put the Brexit decision into direct hands of voters, and I think

:17:31. > :17:36.it has been the correct decision. Finally... I think there has always

:17:37. > :17:42.been a lack of clarity about Article 50 and it's perhaps a good thing

:17:43. > :17:46.that has been resolved. Compared with when we started, nearly seven

:17:47. > :17:52.hours ago now, we are a bit thin on the ground. However, we make up for

:17:53. > :17:59.it in quality, tenacity and of course fortitude. Let me put my

:18:00. > :18:03.cards on the table. I remain totally opposed to Brexit. I'm not going to

:18:04. > :18:09.throw in the towel, it's good to be a total disaster if we go ahead,

:18:10. > :18:16.economically, socially and in every other way and it was sold on Apple

:18:17. > :18:20.'s prospectus. And I will oppose it on any legal and constitutional

:18:21. > :18:26.means. As Baroness Crawley rightly said, we have a long, long way to

:18:27. > :18:31.go. Can I say to the ministers, in particular, not threatening them in

:18:32. > :18:33.anyway because all six of them all the friends of mine, hope that

:18:34. > :18:40.doesn't do them any harm, by the way... You ain't seen nothing yet!

:18:41. > :18:43.We've got a long way to go, we're just at the beginning of the

:18:44. > :18:48.beginning. We've still got the committee stage of this bill, the

:18:49. > :18:55.report stage, and the third reading, and then of course we have got the

:18:56. > :18:58.great repeal bill and I'm told, 7500, at least, statutory

:18:59. > :19:01.instruments to be dealt with as a result of that, that's come to keep

:19:02. > :19:08.this house busy with a lot of scrutiny. And we will do it

:19:09. > :19:11.properly. And of course there are a lot of hurdles ahead, Northern

:19:12. > :19:16.Ireland, no one has mentioned in detail the problems about Scotland,

:19:17. > :19:21.there are one or two problems who know some of the problems there and

:19:22. > :19:26.approval by 27 national parliaments, we heard about some of them,

:19:27. > :19:35.European Parliament, yes, it's a long way to go. But today, I just

:19:36. > :19:40.want to concentrate on one thing very seriously and that is our farm

:19:41. > :19:46.to lithograph form of parliamentary democracy. I was 26 years in the

:19:47. > :19:52.other place, so I'm sensitive about our parliamentary aggressive. If I

:19:53. > :19:57.can quote Churchill, who said we believe MPs of representatives, not

:19:58. > :20:05.delegates. He said we believe that government of the guides as well as

:20:06. > :20:10.the servants of the nation, so government should give the lead. At

:20:11. > :20:14.a quotation I like from Edward Burke, a representative ought always

:20:15. > :20:20.to rejoice to hear a most seriously to consider the opinion of his

:20:21. > :20:25.students but mandates issued, which the member is bound politely and

:20:26. > :20:32.implicitly to a baby, to argue for, though contrary to his clearest

:20:33. > :20:33.conviction of his judgment and conscience, these are things utterly

:20:34. > :20:43.unknown to the laws of this land. That was Edmund Burke, our

:20:44. > :20:48.parliamentary democracy. We don't have a direct -- direct democracy

:20:49. > :20:52.but a parliamentary one and that is why I was really disappointed in the

:20:53. > :20:58.debate in the House of Commons where they ought to know better. I was

:20:59. > :21:02.going to mention that someone said this Brexit is going to be a total

:21:03. > :21:08.disaster but I'm going to vote for it. Someone for whom I have a great

:21:09. > :21:10.respect and incidentally, Baroness Wheatcroft out of that person

:21:11. > :21:17.earlier on, so I can't be named for doing that. But when these members

:21:18. > :21:22.of the House of Commons took the decision did they think about their

:21:23. > :21:27.judgment and their conscience? All weather just feeling that they had

:21:28. > :21:31.to do what the referendum, or what they believed the referendum told

:21:32. > :21:36.them to do. That is a referendum. First of all it was advisory, as

:21:37. > :21:42.others have said, all the legislative referenda are advisory.

:21:43. > :21:44.The only one that hasn't been so was the AV referendum, post-legislation.

:21:45. > :21:49.Where we knew exactly what were voting for, and thankfully we voted

:21:50. > :21:51.it down. And then 16 and 17-year-olds were not allowed to

:21:52. > :21:57.vote as they were in Scotland. Some of them are 18 now and all of them

:21:58. > :22:05.will be a team by the time if we finish this negotiation. I am chair

:22:06. > :22:09.of age in Scotland so I must be careful. Some elderly people who

:22:10. > :22:15.voted against remaining are no longer sadly with us and that is one

:22:16. > :22:19.of the ironies. And then, of course, EU citizens who work in this country

:22:20. > :22:23.in the health service, the financial sector, they weren't allowed to

:22:24. > :22:28.vote. They are taxpayers whatever happened to no taxation without

:22:29. > :22:31.representation? They are taxed but not able to say anything. And then

:22:32. > :22:37.there was a certain threshold which might double friends have raised on

:22:38. > :22:46.earlier opportunities when they discussed this. The Scottish

:22:47. > :22:49.referendum, 43%. And yet this referendum only got 37% of the

:22:50. > :22:54.electorate supporting it. It wouldn't have got through with the

:22:55. > :23:02.cunning men -- Cunninghame amendment if we had had that. The Lord Hope

:23:03. > :23:08.will know this well, even in certain governors, they have a two thirds

:23:09. > :23:13.majority. To admit women. We are looking at a change to the

:23:14. > :23:21.confusion, not just a question of admitting women will stop however

:23:22. > :23:26.important that is. Baroness room oil -- Royal reminds me, of course that

:23:27. > :23:32.is implicit. However important letters. Finally, the lies on which

:23:33. > :23:37.Brexit was sold, not just interpretation of the fact which we

:23:38. > :23:39.do get at general elections, different interpretations, but

:23:40. > :23:43.manifest lies, I want to go in that more detail but I will finish with a

:23:44. > :23:47.little story which goes back to my original point that parliamentary

:23:48. > :23:58.sovereignty. Many years ago when I was an MP we were having a vote on

:23:59. > :24:02.abortion, to change the law come and I am not a religious person, I

:24:03. > :24:07.didn't feel strongly about it one way or another so I went to my

:24:08. > :24:10.constituency party, more than a hundred people there, and told them

:24:11. > :24:13.I didn't feel strongly about it, and asked for their advice. We had a

:24:14. > :24:21.fantastic debate over two hours of a debate, and it was about 50-50 in

:24:22. > :24:27.that debate. But they resolved unanimously to leave it to me. Their

:24:28. > :24:30.elected representative. To listen to the argument and to decide how to

:24:31. > :24:35.vote. That is parliamentary democracy for you and if we don't

:24:36. > :24:38.stick to that, it is not just the House of Lords that will be

:24:39. > :24:46.redundant it is the House of Commons as well. My lords it is always a

:24:47. > :24:52.pleasure to follow Lord far less, and I agree with many of the words

:24:53. > :24:55.he has said. Two things, the Prime Minister and the First Minister of

:24:56. > :25:00.Scotland. Before the referendum, Theresa May was billed as a

:25:01. > :25:04.reluctant Remainer but a Remainer. Since the referendum she has become

:25:05. > :25:11.an enthusiastic Brexiteer leading a government frankly barely

:25:12. > :25:13.distinguishable from Ukip. The referendum was conducted in a

:25:14. > :25:21.climate of misinformation won't both sides but a government elected with

:25:22. > :25:28.under 37% of the vote on a 66% turnout under a Prime Minister who

:25:29. > :25:30.was not the leader of the party or an obvious prime ministerial

:25:31. > :25:38.candidate at the last election has decided that it is interpreting the

:25:39. > :25:42.results should be sovereign. Even trying to exclude parliament from

:25:43. > :25:48.the process. How dare they lecture us about democracy! As Ken Clarke

:25:49. > :25:54.had said, had the result gone narrowly the other way, or even, I

:25:55. > :25:58.suggest, substantially the other way, Brexiteers would not have

:25:59. > :26:03.stayed quiet but would be in full cry now for a rerun stop as the

:26:04. > :26:10.Nationalists, who also pledged that this was a once in a generation vote

:26:11. > :26:14.are now in Scotland. For the Prime Minister to say definitively that

:26:15. > :26:21.the people have voted to leave the single market, all or part of the

:26:22. > :26:24.customs union and the European Court of Justice as well as an probably

:26:25. > :26:31.more importantly other institutions of the EU is in my opinion a denial

:26:32. > :26:38.of democracy, and an abrogation of leadership. But let me turn to

:26:39. > :26:41.Scotland. Before the independence referendum, the SNP declared it was

:26:42. > :26:46.a once in a generation vote will stop unfortunately for Mr Alex

:26:47. > :26:51.Salmond, he said it on television, and it is now being broadcast every

:26:52. > :26:55.day on Facebook. It now they are threatening another referendum. In

:26:56. > :27:01.spite of the fact the Scottish parliament does not have the power

:27:02. > :27:05.to run the referendum again. The circumstances have changed as a

:27:06. > :27:09.result of the EU referendum. Well, they shall have, but not in a way

:27:10. > :27:16.that makes Scottish independence a better option. The SNP traded on the

:27:17. > :27:23.slogan independence in Europe for decades. But this was based on the

:27:24. > :27:32.assumption that the UK would remain a member of the EU. Owl, to leave

:27:33. > :27:38.the EU, to leave the UK, for Scotland to leave the UK for an

:27:39. > :27:42.uncertain future is anything but appealing and that probably said

:27:43. > :27:44.planes -- expense for a second referendum while Lisa Borders on

:27:45. > :27:50.popular demand why the outcome looks no different from the result before.

:27:51. > :27:57.So let us face reality. The idea that Scotland can remain in the EU

:27:58. > :28:01.as a residual part of the UK as the rest of the UK leaves is pure

:28:02. > :28:08.fantasy and cannot happen legally or politically. Whatever Elmer Brock

:28:09. > :28:15.and his mischievous ways might think. The independence campaign

:28:16. > :28:18.failed most especially on the ability to get any credible stay on

:28:19. > :28:27.the currency and independent Scotland would use and the ensuing

:28:28. > :28:29.friction has been repeated in spades, should Scotland on Tuesday

:28:30. > :28:35.leave the UK without an agreement on using the pound which would anyway

:28:36. > :28:41.belie the concept of independence at all. Even allowing for the fact that

:28:42. > :28:44.Scotland has already adopted the accord as part of the UK does not

:28:45. > :28:49.meet any essential fiscal criteria for the bid has no criteria on a

:28:50. > :28:54.macro currency, no central back and no track record and standstill

:28:55. > :28:58.inherit an uncertain and unsustainable level of national debt

:28:59. > :29:06.from the UK and outside of the UK would be running a current account

:29:07. > :29:13.deficit that would be illegitimate in EU. It would take years for them

:29:14. > :29:20.to aspire for full membership. That is even considering veto rights of

:29:21. > :29:25.the other member states. As the UK obsesses with Brexit, Scotland

:29:26. > :29:29.obsesses with independence. Both of these obsessions mean that

:29:30. > :29:34.day-to-day life is sacrificed and standards fall in education, health,

:29:35. > :29:37.skills and investment, when we engage in this distraction. It is a

:29:38. > :29:43.form of self-destructive collective insanity. Of course we will campaign

:29:44. > :29:47.to minimise the damage and prevent the disintegration of our shared

:29:48. > :29:52.values but it requires voters in my view to turn away from an SNP who

:29:53. > :29:56.put an independence above the real interests of the people of Scotland

:29:57. > :30:02.and to stand up to a Ukip leaning Conservative Party which is leading

:30:03. > :30:05.us over a cliff. Every day, it becomes more current than ever that

:30:06. > :30:08.more of our activities are threatened, culture, science,

:30:09. > :30:14.research, environment protection cover workers' rights, all these are

:30:15. > :30:17.now in the mix stop and now Brexiteers want to decorate their

:30:18. > :30:20.own Christmas tree. At the weekend, we were told we should use aid

:30:21. > :30:26.budget these we can trade deal by spending it in Europe and not

:30:27. > :30:30.Africa. How hard-faced, to take money away from the poorest in

:30:31. > :30:35.Africa and South Asia to try and win votes in Eastern European member

:30:36. > :30:39.states. How despicable! No doubt, this will also mean as we proceed to

:30:40. > :30:42.this that we will not speak out for human rights abuses in those

:30:43. > :30:46.countries would have had problems which we are trying to negotiate

:30:47. > :30:50.trade and investment deals with. I hear it in Iran, in Burma, go

:30:51. > :30:55.paddle, the soft pedal, we will might want to trade deal, but stand

:30:56. > :30:59.up for British citizens or human rights. In other words, our

:31:00. > :31:05.long-held and proud liberal values risk being traded away for wrecked

:31:06. > :31:10.it. My lords, not if I can help it. My lords it is always a privilege to

:31:11. > :31:14.follow my former colleague down the corridor and do hear him speak so

:31:15. > :31:19.eloquently on the human rights issues which I fully agree with. I

:31:20. > :31:22.want to engage with this comments on the internal affairs of Scotland

:31:23. > :31:29.that I won't engage, but I will speak about the consequences of this

:31:30. > :31:34.bill. In relation to the internal structure of the United Kingdom and

:31:35. > :31:42.relationships between the existing and emerging devolved institutions

:31:43. > :31:45.in relation to mainland Europe. Obviously I agree that this bill

:31:46. > :31:52.that stands doesn't contain a provision which gives rise to the

:31:53. > :31:58.need for any legislative 's motion on the part of any of the devolved

:31:59. > :32:06.parliaments and assemblies but... The implications of this bill and

:32:07. > :32:14.the developing negotiation position is a matter that has profound

:32:15. > :32:19.concern for all of the devolved assemblies and the Scottish

:32:20. > :32:24.Parliament and indeed for the administrations of the government,

:32:25. > :32:29.and that recognised recently by the Welsh government White Paper, as you

:32:30. > :32:34.see, government White papers emerging from the worst government

:32:35. > :32:37.seem to have a different cover to the White Paper that emerge from the

:32:38. > :32:43.UK Government. They are read, rather than white. I don't know the reason

:32:44. > :32:47.for that, I'll have to ask the First Minister. But that paper emphasises

:32:48. > :32:55.very clearly the constitutional situation we are now in. And I quote

:32:56. > :32:58.from the section on constitutional and devolution issues. Withdrawal

:32:59. > :33:04.from the EU represents a fundamental constitutional change for Wales and

:33:05. > :33:09.the UK as a whole. Returning to pre-1973 practice is simply not an

:33:10. > :33:14.option since devolution was then not part of the UK political structure.

:33:15. > :33:18.And I am not sure whether the indications of this have been

:33:19. > :33:24.clearly understood even within the departments of the UK Government.

:33:25. > :33:31.Because we are not talking about repatriating legislation currently

:33:32. > :33:39.with the European Union, simply to this house, because how can it be

:33:40. > :33:43.argued that legislation, European legislation, which is the basis of

:33:44. > :33:48.Scottish legislation, Northern Ireland legislation and detailed

:33:49. > :33:55.constitutional access, how can it be argued that this legislation should

:33:56. > :34:00.somehow lead to be filtered through this house before it is Pat created

:34:01. > :34:09.by those devolved legislatures which are part of the structure of the

:34:10. > :34:13.United Kingdom? So when the Leader of the House referred in passing to

:34:14. > :34:19.the role of the devolved administrations, it is not just a

:34:20. > :34:25.matter of engagement. We are emerging, equal constitutional

:34:26. > :34:29.partners in this United Kingdom. And in a sense, you see, that is for me

:34:30. > :34:34.a parallel between what is happening in the process between the United

:34:35. > :34:39.Kingdom and the European Union, and the process already in place within

:34:40. > :34:45.the United Kingdom itself, in relation to devolution. That is why

:34:46. > :34:51.I am not as distressed as some of my colleagues about the changes on

:34:52. > :35:00.mainland Europe but I am concerned that the United Kingdom authorities

:35:01. > :35:04.understand that in the coming negotiations the devolved

:35:05. > :35:11.administrations and the assemblies and parliaments are not just

:35:12. > :35:18.institutions to whom something may be reported when the UK Government

:35:19. > :35:23.decide that appropriate. Indeed, the whole question of the joint

:35:24. > :35:32.ministerial committee mechanism of the United Kingdom now has to be

:35:33. > :35:34.faced, I mean, urgently, before we can have a proper negotiation

:35:35. > :35:40.involving the whole of the United Kingdom. Because these GMC

:35:41. > :35:43.mechanisms were created for a different purpose. They were created

:35:44. > :35:50.to ensure regular discussions between ministers about sharing

:35:51. > :35:58.policy and dealing with cross-border issues. Indeed, they have been

:35:59. > :36:05.described by a very distinguished former European civil servant that

:36:06. > :36:08.the GMC machinery was more of a talking shop and exchange of

:36:09. > :36:16.information not created as a decision-making body.

:36:17. > :36:22.So to make negotiation evicted, unless the UK Government believes it

:36:23. > :36:26.is appropriate for it alone to take the whole control of the

:36:27. > :36:30.negotiation, there has to be a way in which the bolt and illustrations

:36:31. > :36:37.can be a part of the negotiation or structure. Otherwise the end of that

:36:38. > :36:41.process, the peoples of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as we

:36:42. > :36:51.have heard eloquently already, will feel increasingly isolated from the

:36:52. > :36:58.activities of the UK Government. We estimate there are 5000 pieces of

:36:59. > :37:04.legislation in devolved areas currently in force, which would need

:37:05. > :37:10.to be re-evaluated as a result of the current negotiations to change

:37:11. > :37:17.our relationship with the European Union. Not even the great reform

:37:18. > :37:25.Bill will be able to deal with all of that. How many subordinate

:37:26. > :37:29.legislation pieces would we be faced with in the national assembly for

:37:30. > :37:35.Wales to deal with that? I am out of time. But so soon maybe this

:37:36. > :37:41.government it doesn't understand the issues I have been explaining. Just

:37:42. > :37:46.put the record, I have not been here all day but I've heard the first

:37:47. > :37:50.dozen speeches from this side, there are only two speeches one can make

:37:51. > :37:54.on this debate, either we accept the decision of the people and let this

:37:55. > :37:57.bill passed all research is due to our judgment for that of the

:37:58. > :38:02.electorate and the Commons. I submit that your lordship's expert opinions

:38:03. > :38:07.and might in expert opinion on whether the UK should leave or

:38:08. > :38:13.remain the U of whether or not it is good or bad, are utterly irrelevant.

:38:14. > :38:16.The decision is not ours as parliamentarians to make or

:38:17. > :38:21.second-guess. The bill before us today simply provides for the

:38:22. > :38:25.outcome of the referendum to be respected. It was made clear on the

:38:26. > :38:29.debate and by the covenant during the referendum period that the

:38:30. > :38:32.decision rested with the people and that the government would implement,

:38:33. > :38:37.without question, whatever the people decided. It was not a case

:38:38. > :38:41.that the government would implement the decision of the people only if

:38:42. > :38:45.Parliament approved of the referendum result, nor is it the

:38:46. > :38:48.case that we would only leave if we stayed in the so-called single

:38:49. > :38:52.market or customs union will stop indeed when boldly suggested we

:38:53. > :38:59.could still leave and access the single market, the then Prime

:39:00. > :39:05.Minister denounced that and said it was clear that leaving the unit

:39:06. > :39:08.meant leaving the single market and customs unit. So it is disingenuous

:39:09. > :39:13.to suggest that Parliament has a right to determine on whether or not

:39:14. > :39:17.we can leave the EU because the question of the single market and

:39:18. > :39:21.customs union were not on the ballot paper. The house will know that my

:39:22. > :39:27.right honourable friend Sal of the left-wing MP was one of the

:39:28. > :39:29.government's almost Remain campaigners -- the crusher Oliver

:39:30. > :39:38.left-wing. He said in the other place on the 31st of January, "I

:39:39. > :39:40.made it clear that an inevitable consequence of leaving the EU would

:39:41. > :39:45.be leaving the single market and leaving the customs union. It seems

:39:46. > :39:50.to me that the people voting were leaving with their eyes wide open,

:39:51. > :39:55.knowing the consequences might be a nice family back on the rules". We

:39:56. > :40:01.are leaving the EU and it is not depend on whether we in this house

:40:02. > :40:05.or anyone else likes or agrees with the final terms. Of course we want a

:40:06. > :40:08.good deal but the decision of the electorate was to leave, whether or

:40:09. > :40:16.not we get a good deal, however defined or no Deal at all. I submit

:40:17. > :40:19.we have nothing to be afraid of them rely fully independent nation what

:40:20. > :40:23.again. The Bank of England almost every other week upgrades our growth

:40:24. > :40:30.forecast for this year. In August, is said growth would be up to 0.8%,

:40:31. > :40:40.then in November, up to 1.4% and two weeks ago, 2%. We have the same old

:40:41. > :40:46.reject fear from the IMF. Many remainders say that the majority to

:40:47. > :40:50.leave the EU was very small. Will I say that many millions more would

:40:51. > :40:57.have voted to leave the Bank of England, Her Majesty's Treasury, 600

:40:58. > :41:00.dodgy economists had not blitzed the referendum campaign with a

:41:01. > :41:07.co-ordinated series of financial scares, dodgy forecasts and the old

:41:08. > :41:13.Project Fear, they were telling us then to stop my Lords, there are

:41:14. > :41:16.many experts in this house who know about the US and trade, I don't

:41:17. > :41:22.pretend to have any of that expertise. -- the EU and trade. I do

:41:23. > :41:35.know a bit about the British electorate and the firestorm you

:41:36. > :41:38.will unleash if. I have been in general elections were my party got

:41:39. > :41:44.a thumping majority and also where we were thrown out by an even bigger

:41:45. > :41:50.majority. Like it or not, I think the public at it about right and

:41:51. > :41:53.those occasions. They also get it right on the 23rd of June last year

:41:54. > :41:57.and I say to your Lordships, particularly those who have not been

:41:58. > :42:00.former members of parliament, you have no idea of the destruction we

:42:01. > :42:05.would great if we go against the decision of the electorate now. We

:42:06. > :42:12.can use the skits that we are bubbling the role of scrutinising

:42:13. > :42:15.legislation, there is nothing in this bill to scrutinise, it is a

:42:16. > :42:19.small bill and it came to us from the Commons with a huge majority. If

:42:20. > :42:23.the bill were to be amended, it should have been done in the other

:42:24. > :42:28.place. The comments did not meant it and if we stick to do so, it will be

:42:29. > :42:31.perceived by those outside as deliberate sabotage of the will of

:42:32. > :42:36.the people, no matter how much we try and dress it up as improvement

:42:37. > :42:39.or scrutiny. I submit to those amendments are nothing to do with

:42:40. > :42:50.scrutiny, they are an attempt to build conditions and party promised

:42:51. > :42:52.to's hands. The government it is absolutely right, I believe that

:42:53. > :42:57.parliamentarians should not be able to use this to demand further

:42:58. > :43:02.negotiations with Brussels in an effort to keep us in the EU by the

:43:03. > :43:05.back door. If the EU knows there may be further negotiations after the

:43:06. > :43:10.initial agreement, that will give them incentive to give us a bad deal

:43:11. > :43:19.the first place. Finally, I have no intention of criticising the Lib

:43:20. > :43:23.Dems tonight. Let me end by quoting a former member of Parliament,

:43:24. > :43:26.leader of the Liberal party, the spokesman for the Lib Dems speaking

:43:27. > :43:33.early in the morning of Friday 24th of June. The nobles Jordache

:43:34. > :43:37.downside, with all the passion he can bring to a speech, said, I will

:43:38. > :43:40.forgive no one who does not respect the sovereignty was of the British

:43:41. > :43:45.people want has spoken, or whether it has a majority of one or 20%, it

:43:46. > :43:51.is our duty to make sure the country does the best it can with the

:43:52. > :43:56.decision they have taken, the British people have spoken, due to

:43:57. > :44:01.what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don't.

:44:02. > :44:05.When democracy speaks, we are based. So said a former leader of the

:44:06. > :44:12.Liberal Democrat party on the Friday morning. What has changed? If is has

:44:13. > :44:16.traces of the ties the bill by building and amendments on the

:44:17. > :44:21.single market, customs union or the end deal, then forget about the

:44:22. > :44:24.criticism of the judges, the criticism will be a vast and we will

:44:25. > :44:31.be called the real enemy of the people, we were unleashed demons

:44:32. > :44:35.which we can not control. This house will be destroyed and we will have

:44:36. > :44:39.turmoil on the streets. The mood upon the public, even those who

:44:40. > :44:48.voted remain, is to get on with it now that good advice, I suggest we

:44:49. > :44:57.follow it. I will confine myself to the legal process in the triggering

:44:58. > :45:02.of article 50 and whether this rule of law, and the Judiciary Committee

:45:03. > :45:07.have been damaged. I do not dispute the individual's right to litigate,

:45:08. > :45:09.nor the government Closing The Attainment Gap In Scottish Education

:45:10. > :45:17.right to appeal. My concern is with the fallout and the government's

:45:18. > :45:23.machinery. The government is macro legal advisers on more officers and

:45:24. > :45:28.their tasks are difficult. The Law offices have to speak truth to power

:45:29. > :45:33.in the case of occasional strong political pressures, particularly

:45:34. > :45:40.from Downing Street, with its own political agenda. As Lady Justice

:45:41. > :45:45.Hallett demonstrated in her report on the on the run Irishman. There is

:45:46. > :45:51.a strong convention, my Lords, that neither the attorney's legal advice

:45:52. > :45:58.disclosed nor indeed whether it was sort, however it would be an immense

:45:59. > :46:04.advantage in these exceptional circumstances, if we knew whether

:46:05. > :46:09.the advice of the attorney was sort, whether an appeal should have been

:46:10. > :46:14.made to the Supreme Court. The divisional Court, under the noble

:46:15. > :46:21.and learned Lord Thomas, the Lord Chief Justice, delivered a masterly

:46:22. > :46:26.judgment in a very short time, and in form and substance should be a

:46:27. > :46:31.template for the future. In the gap between the court's judgment and

:46:32. > :46:39.appeal, the pundits were saying more and more, that the government might

:46:40. > :46:42.well lose the appeal. The attorney advice on appealing, and did he

:46:43. > :46:49.canvassed the risks of damage to the judiciary cos Mike commented on the

:46:50. > :46:55.lake, prolonging uncertainty. When there is a canter Bailey public

:46:56. > :46:59.interest, exceptionally, the fact of seeking the attorney's advice, has

:47:00. > :47:06.been disclosed. It was done in the case of the Iraq war. And again, Mr

:47:07. > :47:13.Douglas Hurd gave a great deal of detail in the Commons on the advice

:47:14. > :47:19.of son Nicholas Lyell on the aspect of the Maastricht Treaty. After the

:47:20. > :47:21.divisional judgment, three national newspapers waded in with

:47:22. > :47:30.excruciating headlines which are not worthy of repeating. We also had

:47:31. > :47:38.detailed analysis on the personal connection, European institutions

:47:39. > :47:45.written with a view of muddying the waters so far as any integrity was

:47:46. > :47:52.concerned. The noble Lord Newberg, paragraph 197 of the judgment,

:47:53. > :47:55.said," the only issue in dispute is whether the action of the Crown must

:47:56. > :48:04.be authorised by an act of Parliament. And Lord Hope was right

:48:05. > :48:10.to remind us of paragraph one to three, the resolution of the House

:48:11. > :48:14.of Commons is just not enough. In this modern age the judiciary are

:48:15. > :48:19.called upon time after time, particularly in judicial review

:48:20. > :48:26.cases, to adjudicate on matters with a strong political flavour and stop

:48:27. > :48:29.I value their role. Did the Cabinet considered the dangers to the

:48:30. > :48:34.judiciary and the respect for the rule of law, by the very process of

:48:35. > :48:39.appealing against what many of us thought was a very clear judgment

:48:40. > :48:48.and which was the object of some appalling press comments? When I was

:48:49. > :48:52.in Cabinet, a long time ago in the 70s, before the downgrading of the

:48:53. > :48:56.office of Lord Chancellor, the Cabinet had the advantage of hearing

:48:57. > :49:00.the views of an experienced and heavyweight Lord Chancellor.

:49:01. > :49:05.Although he was not the Cabinet's legal adviser, no sensible Prime

:49:06. > :49:13.Minister would let him hide his light under a bushel. His views

:49:14. > :49:16.would be welcomed by the Cabinet and the attorney. The present Lord

:49:17. > :49:23.Chancellor is not a lawyer, but unless it has been dismantled, she

:49:24. > :49:27.has all the legal resources of the Department of Justice and would be

:49:28. > :49:34.useful to know what considered advice she gave to the Cabinet, if

:49:35. > :49:39.at all. All I know, that she was very tardy in carrying out her legal

:49:40. > :49:45.and constitutional duty to defend the judiciary and section three of

:49:46. > :49:52.the constitutional reform act of 2005. The house was not impressed by

:49:53. > :49:59.the laboured attempts at the dispatch box to defend her delayed

:50:00. > :50:05.comment. There is more to bring Lord Chancellor wearing judicial robes. I

:50:06. > :50:09.had the temerity to advice the house on the 16th of July that there was a

:50:10. > :50:16.need for parliamentary approval on two grounds. The first political,

:50:17. > :50:23.the royal prerogative was outdated for the purpose. The second was one

:50:24. > :50:27.act of Parliament giving rights would not be undone by the Royal

:50:28. > :50:33.prerogative but only taken away by another act of Parliament. I was

:50:34. > :50:39.fortunate to have read the article in The Times by the noble Lord, I

:50:40. > :50:43.believe only in the Lord, to whom we listened with great respect, was the

:50:44. > :50:48.only one who disagreed with my second proposition.

:50:49. > :50:54.In conclusion, although there have been regrettable incidents to the

:50:55. > :50:58.claimant, some of the resident population and others, I am

:50:59. > :51:05.confident my lords that a judiciary and the rule of law are sufficiently

:51:06. > :51:10.resilient. My lords, I support this bill with the deepest misgivings.

:51:11. > :51:15.Like most others, I remain a Remainer and continue to believe

:51:16. > :51:22.that Brexit will surely impoverish a certain, and not enrich this country

:51:23. > :51:26.or indeed Europe, economically, culturally, socially, you name it

:51:27. > :51:31.was why support it? Not because I'm fearful we are otherwise abolishing.

:51:32. > :51:35.Bethany, when it comes to bullying of that sort, I indeed only we could

:51:36. > :51:41.not be abolished certainly not by the Parliament Acts. Nor do I

:51:42. > :51:45.support the bill because as we constantly acknowledge we are

:51:46. > :51:50.essentially a reviewing and revising chamber only, able occasional to

:51:51. > :51:56.delay never to reject registration proposed by the elected house. In

:51:57. > :51:59.this particular instance it is perfectly plain that the majority in

:52:00. > :52:04.the Commons voted for this bill, assuming of course they worked

:52:05. > :52:08.indisposed on the night, notwithstanding their opposition to

:52:09. > :52:14.Brexit in principle either because they were fearful and otherwise

:52:15. > :52:18.disinfecting constituents and losing their seats, or aim a generous view,

:52:19. > :52:22.because they felt compelled to give effect to the referendum vote, to

:52:23. > :52:28.honour the result, and it is that that indeed which in the end impels

:52:29. > :52:32.me to support this bill whilst at the same time recognising the

:52:33. > :52:41.strength and integrity of the opposing view. What those minded to

:52:42. > :52:46.reject this bill may ask of the 48% who voted rain, what of the

:52:47. > :52:49.Brexiteers profoundly misleading referendum campaign? What of the

:52:50. > :52:56.obvious disagreement amongst majority as to what actually

:52:57. > :53:00.entails, and what are its central aims? What of the absurdity in

:53:01. > :53:05.supposing that the electorate mainstay -- faced a simple binary

:53:06. > :53:10.choice now required to give effect to their vote is perfectly plain,

:53:11. > :53:16.but indeed of the Supreme Court decision, the referendum was after

:53:17. > :53:20.all in law only advisory, so that comes concert usually, as

:53:21. > :53:24.parliamentarians, ought we not now to be exercising our own independent

:53:25. > :53:30.best judgment as to whether after all to take that advice and pursue

:53:31. > :53:37.Brexit? Well, as I say, I recognise the force of these points not least

:53:38. > :53:41.cumulatively but in the end I still believe that they are outweighed by

:53:42. > :53:46.the compelling need to interpret and implement as best we may be

:53:47. > :53:51.referendum result. In short, whatever damage we judged Brexit may

:53:52. > :53:57.do to the national interest in so very many important ways, it is

:53:58. > :54:02.still less than the damage which I believe would inevitably be done to

:54:03. > :54:08.the public trust in the political process if we were now to thwart the

:54:09. > :54:15.majority vote. The plain fact is, plain to me at least that the 52% of

:54:16. > :54:19.Brexiteers including the most politically distrustful and

:54:20. > :54:26.disengaged sections of society, of course don't say that of all

:54:27. > :54:32.Brexiteers, and nor do I say that any or certainly many would take to

:54:33. > :54:37.the streets of violently if we were now to frustrate their success on

:54:38. > :54:42.the referendum vote. But I do say it would take generations for the

:54:43. > :54:46.public confidence in democratic process to be restored. Now, of

:54:47. > :54:50.course, there are lessons to be learned of all this, above all that

:54:51. > :54:57.referendums are intrinsically dangerous devices incompatible with

:54:58. > :55:02.representative liberal democracy par excellence that is true of the

:55:03. > :55:05.Brexit referendum. It requires as it did come a bare majority decision on

:55:06. > :55:12.a convex question of the most profound importance, supposedly

:55:13. > :55:16.offering a simple binary choice and realistically as I believe offering

:55:17. > :55:22.Parliament no option now all but to accept the outcome and embark on

:55:23. > :55:28.this hazardous course of at least initiating the Brexit process. As

:55:29. > :55:34.for the feature, who knows where we and indeed the rest of Europe are

:55:35. > :55:38.going to be 18 months, two years down the track? And for that reason

:55:39. > :55:43.I am disinclined to support any of the amendment designed to bind

:55:44. > :55:48.government to some future point, least of all should we now bind

:55:49. > :55:55.government to a further referendum at the end of the process at any

:55:56. > :56:00.rate on a bare majority, though one good toy with the idea as to perhaps

:56:01. > :56:06.having a referendum having a 55 or 65% majority. All that said, three

:56:07. > :56:13.things are now import of government. First, before -- full and immediate

:56:14. > :56:17.assurance to all EU citizens already here and for the vote as to their

:56:18. > :56:21.future, no doubt subject to risks of deportation for criminality and the

:56:22. > :56:26.like, but otherwise unconditional. That is the right thing to do, and

:56:27. > :56:31.not entirely coincidentally it could be the politically and

:56:32. > :56:37.diplomatically astute thing to do. Secondly, don't adopt, as other

:56:38. > :56:43.noble Lords have touched on, a doctor very approach, severing our

:56:44. > :56:48.links of the European Court of Justice. There is really no room for

:56:49. > :56:53.zealotry with regard at least to some areas of future cooperation

:56:54. > :56:57.with Europe, crime and policing prominent among them. And third and

:56:58. > :57:03.finally this. Consult as fully as possible at all stages and listen to

:57:04. > :57:08.the voices of wisdom, experience, expertise and sound judgment, many

:57:09. > :57:14.of these to be found in your lordship' house. My lords, let me

:57:15. > :57:21.begin by outlining my own position. I served as a member of the European

:57:22. > :57:26.Parliament from 1979 to 2004. I receive a pension from the European

:57:27. > :57:30.and UK parliaments as result of that, service, and currently

:57:31. > :57:33.chairing the European foreign pension scheme and am vice-chair

:57:34. > :57:38.with the former members Association. I hope the Daily Mail will regard

:57:39. > :57:42.that as putting it all on the record. I live in Cambridge, I

:57:43. > :57:46.campaigned for the yes vote, I was active as an office holder in

:57:47. > :57:51.Cambridge says yes and I did ever thing I could get the result I and a

:57:52. > :57:54.pretty large majority of members of this has want. Almost 75% of the

:57:55. > :58:02.voters in Cambridge supported remain. But overall, we lost. I

:58:03. > :58:06.lost, I believe the country lost, and in due course I hope they come

:58:07. > :58:11.to realise the foolishness of that decision. For me it was never a

:58:12. > :58:16.matter of money, but a matter of principle. Is Britain part of the

:58:17. > :58:19.international polity of institutions, or do we like the

:58:20. > :58:25.United States between the wall retreat into isolationism? That is

:58:26. > :58:30.the central question and still is. In the last few weeks and last few

:58:31. > :58:34.days, I have been the recipient of numerous e-mails from people whom my

:58:35. > :58:38.mind have a very shaky understanding of democracy. It was Clement Attlee

:58:39. > :58:44.who refused to let any provision for referenda into the constitution of

:58:45. > :58:48.the Federal Republic of Germany because in his view they, ie

:58:49. > :58:56.referenda, and I quote, are the tool of despots and dictators,". When we

:58:57. > :58:59.passed the bill we solve Billy Mac sold the past, gave the people the

:59:00. > :59:04.right to decide. They have done so and in their review the decision

:59:05. > :59:07.must be respected. It is no good playing games with numbers, the

:59:08. > :59:12.government of this country since the Second World War have at least on

:59:13. > :59:18.three occasions been decided on through the -- decided on small and

:59:19. > :59:26.large things in referendum. I will not be supporting any vote to change

:59:27. > :59:28.or amend this bill. But I have been impressed by the requisite

:59:29. > :59:35.representations responsible in the strain from many trade unions I deal

:59:36. > :59:39.with. There are legitimate fears and interests and I have communicated

:59:40. > :59:45.them to ministers, and indeed today I said to the minister who is

:59:46. > :59:49.replying to the debate a submission from a union which I'm sure he will

:59:50. > :59:53.consider and deal with sympathetically, but not in reply to

:59:54. > :59:57.this debate, I must stress. I will seek assurances in the course of

:59:58. > :00:00.this procedure, but I realise noble lord of the Minister and his

:00:01. > :00:04.colleagues the commencement of negotiations will be circumscribed

:00:05. > :00:06.as to what they can offer, but a general direction of travel

:00:07. > :00:16.indication would certainly be welcome. I want now to turn to the

:00:17. > :00:22.politico -- particular difficulties suffered by people in public

:00:23. > :00:28.service, public employed or pensioners of service. Thousands of

:00:29. > :00:32.staff and members have worked for the institutions of the EU, literary

:00:33. > :00:41.Dublin that are literally dozens of the them. Don't forget the Court of

:00:42. > :00:44.justice, the Court of auditors, the Council of ministers, the economic

:00:45. > :00:50.and social committee, the medicines AG based of course in the UK, and

:00:51. > :00:54.many others. Encouraged by Her Majesty's government, and often

:00:55. > :01:01.coached by our representatives in Brussels, UK representation, people

:01:02. > :01:06.of high calibre have devoted many years of their lives to the service

:01:07. > :01:12.of these institutions and to the preparation of a British view of how

:01:13. > :01:14.things are done will stop the UK Government has sat in on the

:01:15. > :01:20.development of staff conditions and helped matters evolve to the present

:01:21. > :01:23.situation. The noble Lord Lord Kinnock in his capacity as

:01:24. > :01:28.Commissioner oversaw a fundamental reform of staff working conditions

:01:29. > :01:32.in the early years of the century. All the way through these decisions,

:01:33. > :01:35.the government has been a part to all of these decisions which have

:01:36. > :01:41.helped shape the working practices, pensions and benefits, and tied up

:01:42. > :01:45.in these conditions of service and pensions are undertakings under the

:01:46. > :01:51.headings of pension health and other ancillary benefits which in my view

:01:52. > :01:58.Her Majesty's government must pay careful attention to in the

:01:59. > :02:02.unravelling of the treaties. Today, at the staff are worried. Some fear

:02:03. > :02:07.that HMG so happy to have them in position when it was useful is now

:02:08. > :02:10.on the point of abandoning them. I realise the ministry is limited in

:02:11. > :02:14.what it will be able to say in reply to this debate, but I would like him

:02:15. > :02:19.to pick to clear statements about our future. Firstly, can the

:02:20. > :02:21.Minister say a simple thank you to those who have dedicated their

:02:22. > :02:29.working lives to this project that was until a few months ago a common

:02:30. > :02:32.endeavour? When I sat as a commercial mediator, I found the

:02:33. > :02:36.first step on the road to a successful outcome in a case was

:02:37. > :02:42.often a simple acknowledgement that both sides owed something to the

:02:43. > :02:46.other. If the staff feel that they are abandoned and wanted --

:02:47. > :02:52.unwonted, this will trickle down through other agencies, UN, Nato,

:02:53. > :02:55.WTO or many others, the word will get round that the government is not

:02:56. > :03:00.to be trusted and does not appreciate the work done for it. We

:03:01. > :03:05.will be poorer for it and less well served. Secondly, can I ask the

:03:06. > :03:08.Minister to give assurance that these financial worries and

:03:09. > :03:14.legitimate expectations will be at the forefront of Minister public

:03:15. > :03:18.minds when unravelling the convex interface between our obligation to

:03:19. > :03:23.present staff and pensioners, and the need to complete the withdrawal

:03:24. > :03:25.associations expeditiously? I am sure that the Minister will do his

:03:26. > :03:32.best , I am not here to causing trouble,

:03:33. > :03:35.but I am raising some very important points which have been reflected to

:03:36. > :03:41.me by the start associations of the European Union, and many of the

:03:42. > :03:45.people who have voted their lives to working for what they regarded as a

:03:46. > :03:50.common endeavour. We owe them a responsibility of care, and I look

:03:51. > :03:58.to the governments to deliver on that. My Lords, this is a momentous

:03:59. > :04:06.debate because this is a debate in which the house and parliament as a

:04:07. > :04:13.whole are trying to turn back on 40 years of history, striking out on

:04:14. > :04:19.our own in a highly dangerous and volatile world. Is is the result of

:04:20. > :04:25.the referendum. Some people outside the house, and some of your

:04:26. > :04:32.Lordships as well, have tried to question the Democratic legitimacy

:04:33. > :04:39.of the referendum on the ground that 39% of the people voted, or that

:04:40. > :04:43.lies, false suits were told, and that the campaign was not as honest

:04:44. > :04:48.as it could have been. That is I'm afraid water and the bridge. It does

:04:49. > :04:52.not amount to any kind of electoral malpractice and can't be ignored. --

:04:53. > :04:57.can be ignored. Think what the referendum does is to pose extremely

:04:58. > :05:03.important questions. First of all, what is its constitutional status?

:05:04. > :05:09.Secondly, what does it commit us to? Thirdly, once we have achieved what

:05:10. > :05:12.it wants us to achieve, what next? And in the five minutes I have, I

:05:13. > :05:18.want to address those questions in order. Constitutional status of the

:05:19. > :05:22.referendum. It is that it is largely advisory. Although the Prime

:05:23. > :05:30.Minister and others have said differently, this is not part of the

:05:31. > :05:36.bill, and only the bill carries this meaning. More importantly, to

:05:37. > :05:38.suggest that it is mandatory is to question the principle of

:05:39. > :05:47.parliamentary sovereignty which is the concentrating linchpin of our

:05:48. > :05:52.system. This means that in an advisory proposal, rather than a

:05:53. > :05:57.mandatory one, it requires every MP not simply to give in to what the

:05:58. > :06:01.referendum says but rather give it serious thought and to give it its

:06:02. > :06:10.best judgment to the question, in hand. I think it is quite important

:06:11. > :06:20.that the MP is never entirely helpless. In the question of an

:06:21. > :06:24.advisory referendum, the MP retains the freedom and the responsibility

:06:25. > :06:29.to make sure that he exercises his mind is wisely has he can, and

:06:30. > :06:36.delivers his element. The same applies to your Lordships multi mega

:06:37. > :06:42.house. We are representatives although unelected. By students in

:06:43. > :06:46.political philosophy classes, being elected and being a representative

:06:47. > :06:48.are not necessarily the same thing. In certain contexts, the Queen

:06:49. > :06:55.represents us without having been elected. And the fact that we are

:06:56. > :07:00.sometimes threatened with extinction, if we were to exact our

:07:01. > :07:04.judgment, during the 17 years of have been in this house I have those

:07:05. > :07:09.threats wielded again and again, and I am afraid they don't amount to

:07:10. > :07:15.very much. And if we do, we shall see. I want to concentrate on the

:07:16. > :07:19.second question which is what on earth this referendum commits us to.

:07:20. > :07:24.Some people seem to think that it commits us conclusively and

:07:25. > :07:29.exclusively to getting out from the European Union. I'm afraid it

:07:30. > :07:34.doesn't. If 52% of the people want to get out and 48% of the people

:07:35. > :07:40.wants to stay in, then the message to people send out is you may get

:07:41. > :07:44.out, you should get out, but please remember 48% of the people do want

:07:45. > :07:49.us to stay in. And therefore the message of the referendum as I

:07:50. > :07:57.understand it is... You've the European Union, but in a such a way

:07:58. > :08:02.that you also remember its member. Leave the European Union, but do not

:08:03. > :08:07.give up the best that it has given you, and engage with our neighbours.

:08:08. > :08:13.This means we should not do anything or settle on terms that lower the

:08:14. > :08:20.public standards that we have come to accept during the last 48 years

:08:21. > :08:24.of European union. We should give workers' rights, we should not

:08:25. > :08:27.weaken the UK, we should respect human rights and we should respect

:08:28. > :08:36.the rights of EU nationals resident in the UK. And I think this is what

:08:37. > :08:38.has been said when we are told that leaving the European Union, we are

:08:39. > :08:44.leaving it but not Europe. What does that mean? What does Europe stand

:08:45. > :08:52.for? If it is different from the European Union? And Europe stands

:08:53. > :08:54.for assertion democratic value. Only at Auriol in Europe what we're

:08:55. > :08:56.saying is that we are committed to these values and these values must

:08:57. > :08:57.at costs remain. these values and these

:08:58. > :09:06.values must at costs Hello and welcome to

:09:07. > :39:46.Monday In Parliament, our look Peers start debate

:39:47. > :39:51.on the Brexit Bill - with the Leader in the Lords warning

:39:52. > :40:01.them not to slow things down. The government is determined to

:40:02. > :40:09.trigger Article 50 by the 31st of March in order to deliver on the

:40:10. > :40:11.decision of the British people. The bill before us is a procedural part

:40:12. > :40:13.of that withdrawal process. MPs debate two petitions

:40:14. > :40:15.on Donald Trump - one calling for his state visit to be cancelled,

:40:16. > :40:19.the other welcoming it.