13/03/2017

:00:08. > :00:14.A message from the Commons that they disagree to the amendments made by

:00:15. > :00:18.the House of Lords to the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal)

:00:19. > :00:20.Bill for which they assign reasons. My Lord I beg to move that the

:00:21. > :00:25.Commons reasons be considered forthwith. The question is that the

:00:26. > :00:30.Commons reasons be considered forthwith. As many of that opinion

:00:31. > :00:37.will stay content. The contrary not content. The content ball have it.

:00:38. > :00:43.I beg to move a motion a that this House does not insist on amendment

:00:44. > :00:51.one to which the other place disagreed for their reason one A. My

:00:52. > :00:56.Lords, now we are past the 70th hour of parliamentary debate on these 137

:00:57. > :01:00.words let me begin by saying this. The United Kingdom's withdrawal from

:01:01. > :01:05.the European Union is obviously one of the most momentous steps that our

:01:06. > :01:08.nation will take in our lifetimes. I believe that significant

:01:09. > :01:13.opportunities do indeed lie before us. But as someone who voted to

:01:14. > :01:19.remain, I am not deaf to people's concerns and I do not dismiss those

:01:20. > :01:22.concerns as somehow portraying a lack of patriotism. But that

:01:23. > :01:27.decision to leave the European Union has been made and this Bill, this

:01:28. > :01:34.very simple Bill, delivers on that decision. The debate has been one of

:01:35. > :01:39.conviction and passion and has displayed some of the very best

:01:40. > :01:44.qualities of your lordship's house. But despite my best efforts to

:01:45. > :01:50.convince your Lordships' otherwise this little Bill was amended twice.

:01:51. > :01:54.Now we all agreed that this House is perfectly entitled to ask the other

:01:55. > :01:59.place to think again. And the other place has now done that. And debated

:02:00. > :02:03.this again. And once again they have decided to pass this Bill without

:02:04. > :02:11.amendment. The issue at stake in this amendment is very simple. We

:02:12. > :02:16.all agree we want to give certainty for those EU nationals who have made

:02:17. > :02:22.the United Kingdom their home and UK nationals who live in the EU. The

:02:23. > :02:27.disagreement is over how we do that. And the Government's position has

:02:28. > :02:31.been clear from June. We have always said that we want to secure the

:02:32. > :02:36.status of EU citizens here in the UK so long as we get a similar

:02:37. > :02:41.guaranteed for UK citizens in the EU. We believe this approach is fair

:02:42. > :02:47.and reflects the duty of care we have as a government to the 900,000

:02:48. > :02:52.UK citizens in the EU. My Lords, we need an agreement on this issue

:02:53. > :02:55.quickly and we have tried to get one. However a number of EU member

:02:56. > :03:00.states were not willing to discuss it until we have begun the formal

:03:01. > :03:01.negotiations and that is why my right honourable friend the

:03:02. > :03:05.Secretary of State confirmed over the weekend that we intend this

:03:06. > :03:12.issue to be one of the first to stillbirth. And that is why we want

:03:13. > :03:16.to pass this Bill as possible so we can start negotiating and set about

:03:17. > :03:22.reaching that agreement. -- first to discuss. Even the other place has

:03:23. > :03:27.done as we have asked and thought again and decided to reject this

:03:28. > :03:30.majority of 48. Given all this I would argue, with respect, that this

:03:31. > :03:34.evening is really not the time nor the place to return to the fray and

:03:35. > :03:41.insert terms and conditions to our negotiating condition still listed

:03:42. > :03:47.as the place the Government make a unilateral move as regard the status

:03:48. > :03:51.of EU nationals in the UK. This Bill has only one purpose, the lengthy

:03:52. > :03:55.outcome of the referendum result in June and respect the judgment of the

:03:56. > :03:59.supreme court. Nothing more, nothing less. So I urge this has two pass

:04:00. > :04:07.this Bill unamended and I beg to move. The question is that Bush and

:04:08. > :04:15.Abie agreed to come amendment one, Lord Davies. My Lords, I beg to move

:04:16. > :04:23.and one is the motion to one day, they vowed, do insist on this

:04:24. > :04:29.amendment one. I do so for the following reasons. First, despite

:04:30. > :04:33.the large majority which voted for the amendment to the Bill in this

:04:34. > :04:38.House, the Government has failed not only to make any concessions but it

:04:39. > :04:43.has not even attempted to address the many issues that were raised by

:04:44. > :04:49.noble lord at Committee Stage. Secondly the profound nature of the

:04:50. > :04:56.issue at stake should make us think very carefully before we concede.

:04:57. > :05:03.This debate is not on some arcane technicality or over some petty

:05:04. > :05:06.partisan disagreement. It is about people's lives. It is about whether

:05:07. > :05:10.people will be allowed to live in the country they have made their

:05:11. > :05:14.home with the people for whom they care. Whether they can stay in a job

:05:15. > :05:19.or plan a career, whether their children can remain in the school

:05:20. > :05:23.they know and study with the friends they have made. It is about their

:05:24. > :05:28.futures, homes and families and it is about the fear and misery that is

:05:29. > :05:33.being caused by every further day of uncertainty. Thirdly, we should

:05:34. > :05:39.weigh our decision very carefully because this debate is also about

:05:40. > :05:45.the integrity of our country. It is about whether we will honour the

:05:46. > :05:49.unequivocal commitment made by the official from leaves campaign that

:05:50. > :05:54.if the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union, the rights of

:05:55. > :06:00.all EU citizens in the UK would be guaranteed. Unlike most other issues

:06:01. > :06:06.arising from the referendum, there is absolutely no dispute about what

:06:07. > :06:10.was promised to EU citizens. During the campaign the vote leaves

:06:11. > :06:14.campaign which was supported by a number of Noble Lords in this House

:06:15. > :06:21.made the following categorical statement. There will be no change

:06:22. > :06:24.for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU

:06:25. > :06:30.citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain

:06:31. > :06:37.in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at

:06:38. > :06:42.present. There were no caveats, no issue of replica city or talk of

:06:43. > :06:49.negotiations. Just eight categorical commitment unilaterally given. And

:06:50. > :06:52.finally, this debate is about the role of this House. President

:06:53. > :06:58.indicates that when the rights of individuals have been threatened,

:06:59. > :07:03.this House has always been robust in its defence of them. I hope we will

:07:04. > :07:11.live up to that president today. So, the facts are clear, a firm and

:07:12. > :07:15.explicit commitment was made by the Vote Leave campaign that rights of

:07:16. > :07:20.EU citizens in the UK would be protected. Parliamentary committees

:07:21. > :07:25.of both houses agreed that a unilateral guaranteed should be

:07:26. > :07:29.provided now. And all the bodies representing British citizens in the

:07:30. > :07:34.EU who have contacted me and many other members of this House have

:07:35. > :07:40.supported that position. It is clear that if we do not insist on or

:07:41. > :07:45.amendment, there is a real possibility that EU citizens in the

:07:46. > :07:51.UK and UK citizens in the EU may not have clarity as to their status for

:07:52. > :07:54.another two years. The Commons exiting the EU Committee rightly

:07:55. > :08:01.described such a situation as unconscionable. I understand the

:08:02. > :08:05.nervousness of some Noble Lords about challenging the elected house

:08:06. > :08:10.on this matter. But to those who argue that this is not the right

:08:11. > :08:15.time for us to insist on or amendment, or this Bill is the wrong

:08:16. > :08:18.place for us to insist, or that president tells us we should do

:08:19. > :08:25.insist, I would respectively argued the contrary. But if your lordship's

:08:26. > :08:29.EU just a sub sub Committee and the House of Commons exiting the EU

:08:30. > :08:34.Committee unanimously agreed that the UK should act unilaterally and

:08:35. > :08:40.that the time to act is now. This Bill is the only place to act if we

:08:41. > :08:45.are to end the debilitating uncertainty that is causing so much

:08:46. > :08:52.distress. The minister says that we have a right to amend the Bill. My

:08:53. > :08:57.Lords, we also have a right to insist on our amendments. And the

:08:58. > :09:03.president tells us that we should. But when issues of important

:09:04. > :09:08.principle or individuals are at stake your Lordships' house can and

:09:09. > :09:13.does insist on its position and necessary repeatedly pushes the

:09:14. > :09:18.issue back to the conference. It did so on the 2014 criminal Justice and

:09:19. > :09:20.Courts Bill and be 2012 legal aid sentencing and punishment of

:09:21. > :09:26.offenders Bill. It did so three times over the 2007 corporate

:09:27. > :09:33.manslaughter and homicide Bill, four times over the 2006 identity cards

:09:34. > :09:38.Bill and five times over the 2005 prevention of terrorism Bill. And it

:09:39. > :09:43.has regularly insisted on amendments to bills went far less was at stake

:09:44. > :09:45.than today. On the powers of the learning and skills Council, with

:09:46. > :09:50.the means by which the chairman of the legal services board has

:09:51. > :09:57.appointed or even on the fitting of retro reflective tape on heavy goods

:09:58. > :10:01.vehicles whatever that is. How then, when the rights of millions of

:10:02. > :10:07.people are on the line, could this has given up at the first attempt?

:10:08. > :10:12.Howell, went clear and unequivocal commitments were made to EU citizens

:10:13. > :10:18.in our country, could this has failed to insist that they are

:10:19. > :10:22.upheld? How, when the integrity of our country is at stake, could this

:10:23. > :10:28.has failed to insist that it is upheld? My Lords, many people will

:10:29. > :10:34.be watching us tonight will stop please them all. But we can show

:10:35. > :10:37.them that no matter the pressures from the media or threats from the

:10:38. > :10:43.Government we are prepared to do what we know to be the right thing.

:10:44. > :10:48.I have no doubt that the right thing is to insist on this amendment. To

:10:49. > :10:52.protect the rights of EU citizens in the UK and in doing so to uphold the

:10:53. > :11:10.honour and integrity of this country. My Lords, I beg to move.

:11:11. > :11:17.The original question was that motion A be agreed to since when

:11:18. > :11:22.motion amendment A1 has been grew to leave out from the House to the end

:11:23. > :11:26.to insert, do insist on its amendment one. The question

:11:27. > :11:31.therefore is that amendment A1 be agreed to. It is not in anyway my

:11:32. > :11:33.intention to repeat the arguments I have used about Brexit in the

:11:34. > :11:39.various sessions we have had over the last few weeks. But there is a

:11:40. > :11:42.question that I must ask to the noble lord. And it is a question the

:11:43. > :11:47.answer to West I think is very important indeed all of us because

:11:48. > :11:51.it it goes to the heart of the earliest intention of the Government

:11:52. > :11:55.to be quite transparent with the House and the public as these Brexit

:11:56. > :12:01.negotiations continue. As they will do for a long time starting

:12:02. > :12:05.presumably in a few days' time. I have not been very successful in

:12:06. > :12:08.getting answers to questions I have asked the Minister in previous

:12:09. > :12:12.sessions on this Bill. I concern with a big thinking it is maybe

:12:13. > :12:16.because I have touched some rather delicate things and potentially

:12:17. > :12:19.embarrassing points but that is not great consolation. I would rather

:12:20. > :12:23.have full and frank answers and I do hope that I have one tonight. But it

:12:24. > :12:30.all my interest but in the interests of the issues I have just raised.

:12:31. > :12:34.The Minister has just told the House today and the Prime Minister and the

:12:35. > :12:39.Minister for Brexit has said on many occasions that it is their intention

:12:40. > :12:44.and original hope to negotiate a deal on the future residency rights

:12:45. > :12:49.of EU citizens here and of British citizens in the remaining part of

:12:50. > :12:53.the EU in advance even giving notice in Article 50, but that proved

:12:54. > :12:56.unfortunately impossible because as other continentals were willing to

:12:57. > :13:02.do that and now the Government would really like to negotiate on that

:13:03. > :13:04.matter, resolve it in advance of negotiations on other general

:13:05. > :13:10.subjects, economic and other difficulties. So that because the

:13:11. > :13:18.quickly. My Lords, my question is this, how can that possibly be

:13:19. > :13:24.cosmic because a negotiation on residency rights of British citizens

:13:25. > :13:30.in the EU or EU citizens here is nothing -- not a negotiation that

:13:31. > :13:37.this can be pursued, it is not a matter for Mr Juncker. Residency

:13:38. > :13:42.issues, the regime regarding persons who are not members were citizens of

:13:43. > :13:51.a member state, but equally not citizens of another member state, or

:13:52. > :13:53.a non-EU state, residency issues, residency requirements, residency

:13:54. > :13:57.regimes throughout the European Union are not a matter for the

:13:58. > :14:00.treaty. They are a matter for each individual member state. Every

:14:01. > :14:04.individual member state has its own residency rules as they are

:14:05. > :14:07.different. What is more, the arguments and the forces would be

:14:08. > :14:10.brought to bear if there is a suggestion of changing those

:14:11. > :14:14.residency rules will be different in each country. So if you want to

:14:15. > :14:18.negotiate the Prime Minister says that as the noble lord has said this

:14:19. > :14:22.evening, in order to negotiate on the particular matter, you have to

:14:23. > :14:25.conduct a separate bilateral negotiation with 27 different

:14:26. > :14:32.countries. And eventually the result of that negotiation has to be

:14:33. > :14:35.ratified by 27 different countries, actually 28 because it is ratified

:14:36. > :14:40.here I hope. That is not something that can be done in a few weeks, but

:14:41. > :14:44.even something that I can be done in a short number of months, it is

:14:45. > :14:47.something that if it had been attempted before, notice was given

:14:48. > :14:53.under Article 50, would have been delayed by many months, the issuing

:14:54. > :14:55.of a notice under Article 50, quite contrary to the Minister said her

:14:56. > :15:00.intention was. That is something which was undertaken immediately we

:15:01. > :15:05.do issuing notice under Article 50 would itself delay the procedures

:15:06. > :15:10.for a very long time. How can it be that in fact the Government thought

:15:11. > :15:13.that this was a way of accelerating progress on the Brexit negotiations?

:15:14. > :15:17.I think that is a question which nobody ever asked. I tried to ask

:15:18. > :15:24.the other day but I wasn't able to capture your Lordships' attention. I

:15:25. > :15:29.ask it now. It is something which is absolutely essential if I think the

:15:30. > :15:30.House is going to achieve a complete picture of what is really going on

:15:31. > :15:43.in this very important area. I want to speak on an issue

:15:44. > :15:50.tangential to the one raised by my noble friend and I rise to ask a

:15:51. > :15:53.couple of simple questions and they are essentially the subject of an

:15:54. > :15:59.amendment that I tabled to the Bill last week and which was subsequently

:16:00. > :16:06.removed when it became clear that the amendment on these matters and

:16:07. > :16:11.my noble friends from the front bench was likely to be carried by

:16:12. > :16:18.the House. My first question is under a mixed agreement association,

:16:19. > :16:24.does a negotiated settlement in the council remain valid as far as the

:16:25. > :16:31.rights of United Kingdom citizens living in Europe are concerned, even

:16:32. > :16:37.if such an agreement was not supported in either your European

:16:38. > :16:41.Parliament or in the parliaments of the nation states? Does it stand

:16:42. > :16:48.alone? And secondly, in the event that we were to take this whole

:16:49. > :16:53.debate on EU and UK citizens rights outside the Article 50 process,

:16:54. > :16:59.which is what essentially my Lords appear to be alluding to, the

:17:00. > :17:04.hurdles of qualified majority voting, the hurdle of a European

:17:05. > :17:11.Parliament vote and approval by nation states were to be avoided,

:17:12. > :17:15.that is if they are actually required, and also if we had

:17:16. > :17:22.problems and in the event that a number of European states outside

:17:23. > :17:30.Article 50 were to indicate their support for upholding the indefinite

:17:31. > :17:36.rights of UK citizens living in the EU, would the government in those

:17:37. > :17:45.circumstances be prepared to concede the rights of EU citizens from those

:17:46. > :17:47.same states living in the United Kingdom? That would mean that some

:17:48. > :17:54.states who did not agree would be excluded. The government being able

:17:55. > :17:59.to do so would be reading the hurdles of the European Parliament

:18:00. > :18:05.or votes in national parliaments if they are needed. -- would be

:18:06. > :18:09.removing the hurdles. That approach would lead to an earlier closure on

:18:10. > :18:13.the whole debate, which members are concerned will be dragged out over

:18:14. > :18:17.years. It is all right by Minister saying that UK citizens rights will

:18:18. > :18:22.be top of the agenda but what is worrying some of us is that a

:18:23. > :18:28.victory or a so-called victory in the Council of ministers may not

:18:29. > :18:39.provide the assurances that people want and also that assurances given

:18:40. > :18:43.in private to David Davis that some countries may seek to carry

:18:44. > :18:49.decisions on citizenship into arguments that some countries, who

:18:50. > :18:52.despite the insurance of David Davis, they seek to carry their

:18:53. > :19:00.decisions on citizenship actually into arguments over the contribution

:19:01. > :19:05.that Russian must -- that the United Kingdom must make to wind up costs.

:19:06. > :19:08.It might be that despite all of these Asher and says that

:19:09. > :19:12.governments, nation states in Europe, might say we are going to

:19:13. > :19:17.turn this into an argument about the contributions of Britain and I

:19:18. > :19:21.wonder in that light if the Minister would be prepared to give me a

:19:22. > :19:26.response. -- despite all of these assurances. I have no doubt that

:19:27. > :19:32.Article 50 must be triggered sooner rather than later but I have equally

:19:33. > :19:36.no doubt of the merits of this motion on this particular amendment,

:19:37. > :19:43.I supported it before as did 358 members of this House, a majority of

:19:44. > :19:47.102. Those decisions we take in this House are nicely balanced. This one

:19:48. > :19:53.I suggest is perfectly clear, arguments are compelling no one

:19:54. > :19:59.doubts the need for the EU nationals already lawfully here to remain

:20:00. > :20:04.here, for the sake of health services, the care services, the

:20:05. > :20:12.building industry and so forth and no one doubts that those we most

:20:13. > :20:17.need to stay are starting to bleed away. Remember what Lord Winston

:20:18. > :20:23.said about the medics, read your Times newspaper and a letter from

:20:24. > :20:29.the academics at Oxford today. The government says assurances are

:20:30. > :20:32.unnecessary, in fact no possibility of our ever wanting to deny these

:20:33. > :20:40.people are present rights let alone deport them. And of course logically

:20:41. > :20:52.that is indeed so but as the hammer during of this group shows -- but as

:20:53. > :21:01.the haemorrhage of this group shows, it was said that fairness demands

:21:02. > :21:07.that all expatriates, EU nationals are treated identically so that no

:21:08. > :21:12.assurance should be given to those here until reciprocal assurances are

:21:13. > :21:18.given to our citizens in the other member states. I would give three

:21:19. > :21:25.answers to that suggestion. First, this. As the noble Lord Lord Hani

:21:26. > :21:29.and others pointed out, those representing UK nationals in other

:21:30. > :21:36.EU states positively support our giving this assurance and they

:21:37. > :21:40.believe rightly, I would suggest, that their case would be

:21:41. > :21:48.strengthened, not weakened, by our taking this initiative. As the noble

:21:49. > :21:52.Lord said in committee, a generous gesture freely given will assist in

:21:53. > :21:56.creating a good climate for the start of these negotiations,

:21:57. > :22:01.difficult though they are going to be with the other 27 nations as the

:22:02. > :22:04.noble Lord Lord Davies has emphasised again today but that is

:22:05. > :22:09.reason one. Reason to, the stronger the government point that really no

:22:10. > :22:15.assurance is necessary because EU nationals here are desperately

:22:16. > :22:20.needed for our own economy, health service and so forth and therefore

:22:21. > :22:23.they face no risk of losing these rights anyway, the stronger that

:22:24. > :22:29.argument, the weaker the argument that there is actually any advantage

:22:30. > :22:36.to our citizens abroad in keeping the future of EU nationals here in

:22:37. > :22:40.doubt for the purpose of negotiating our national is' future abroad. In

:22:41. > :22:47.short, even if other member states chose not to allow UK nationals to

:22:48. > :22:52.remain there, and we can understand the case of some of theirs is rather

:22:53. > :22:58.less compelling than our need here to keep EU nationals here, we should

:22:59. > :23:06.still want to keep their nationals here. And thirdly, this. It is

:23:07. > :23:10.hardly the size in -- surprising that other states are refusing to

:23:11. > :23:16.discuss this issue until we actually trigger Article 50 but it is the

:23:17. > :23:21.UK's decision to pursue Brexit, sensible or not, obviously there are

:23:22. > :23:25.different views on that, but it is that decision which has precipitated

:23:26. > :23:32.this crisis, created this uncertainty, the insecurity felt by

:23:33. > :23:37.this group. We can and should, I suggest, and lay their fears at the

:23:38. > :23:46.same time as we trigger Article 50. This clause will not delay it. The

:23:47. > :23:51.noble lord knows I agree with much of what he is saying but that is not

:23:52. > :23:54.the issue tonight. The issue tonight is whether we recognise our

:23:55. > :24:00.constitutional limitations and whether we fly in the face of what

:24:01. > :24:05.the Commons, having been given the opportunity to reconsider, has now

:24:06. > :24:07.decided emphatically and as a great constitutionalist, which the noble

:24:08. > :24:14.Lord is, I would think he would agree with that. Of course I agree,

:24:15. > :24:21.I have never previously voted against government ping-pong. I

:24:22. > :24:26.don't know how often my noble friend plays ping-pong but is it so

:24:27. > :24:39.exceptional to keep a rally going beyond two strokes? I would suggest

:24:40. > :24:44.not. I suggest we do it. I support the amendment. The amendment that

:24:45. > :24:49.was carried in this House a few days ago was by a huge majority on a near

:24:50. > :24:53.record turnout of noble Lords in that division. It appears to me that

:24:54. > :25:00.very little attempt has been made, if any, to meet the points that were

:25:01. > :25:04.made in this chamber the government has relied on its power to get a

:25:05. > :25:08.whipped vote through anti-steam roller this through the stop the

:25:09. > :25:14.government could have accepted this or they could have come and met us

:25:15. > :25:19.but they have not done so. -- and steam roller this through. Regarding

:25:20. > :25:22.the government seeking other countries in the European Union to

:25:23. > :25:28.agree to the status of UK citizens first, what if they don't? What if

:25:29. > :25:32.they don't, do we then pick out European citizens that are here? Is

:25:33. > :25:37.that the logic of the argument? If it is, is that acceptable to this

:25:38. > :25:44.House? My Lords, the noble Lord Lord Bridges said this is a debate of

:25:45. > :25:46.conviction and of passion. Yes it is a debate of conviction and

:25:47. > :25:51.convictions do not change just because they have been beaten by a

:25:52. > :25:54.whipped vote in another place. They don't get kicked into touch. My

:25:55. > :26:00.conviction still stands and however others will do tonight, mine will

:26:01. > :26:08.stand in the division lobby. I added my name to and spoke in favour of

:26:09. > :26:10.and voted for the original amendment and I believe that the arguments

:26:11. > :26:17.that were advanced in support of that amendment were correct and

:26:18. > :26:19.remain so today. The fact that the government has chosen to force

:26:20. > :26:27.through the Bill in its unamended form doesn't change my view on that.

:26:28. > :26:33.It is perhaps worthy of noting as was noted by the noble Lord that

:26:34. > :26:39.although one of the arguments put forward was concern by the

:26:40. > :26:43.government, concern about the status of UK citizens in the rest of the

:26:44. > :26:49.European Union, much of the support for the amendment have come from

:26:50. > :26:55.those UK nationals who felt the amendment living in the European

:26:56. > :27:00.Union who felt that our amendment was in their interests. Now, my

:27:01. > :27:05.Lords, I only speak because I feel I cannot keep silence the night. In

:27:06. > :27:09.view of all the communications one has received from people asking one

:27:10. > :27:17.to insist on this particular amendment. But I feel that I have to

:27:18. > :27:24.say openly and publicly that I cannot support continued insistence,

:27:25. > :27:30.which in different circumstances I would have been tempted so to do. To

:27:31. > :27:34.do so is possibly to delay the process of invoking Article 50,

:27:35. > :27:42.which would not be in the interest of the European Union or indeed the

:27:43. > :27:46.United Kingdom and indeed if I accept, and of course I accept, from

:27:47. > :27:51.the noble lord the minister, it could delay the start of

:27:52. > :27:57.negotiations to safeguard the interests of EU citizens here and UK

:27:58. > :28:04.citizens in the European Union. But I would, my Lords, make one comment.

:28:05. > :28:10.Which is applicable to the second amendment moved tonight. I hope that

:28:11. > :28:18.the government and those with in it who favour a quick, Haj Brexit

:28:19. > :28:23.appreciate -- hard Brexit that the referendum, whilst expressing the

:28:24. > :28:26.will of the people, did not give them a blank cheque as to how to

:28:27. > :28:32.implement it and that the answer to any question or criticism cannot be

:28:33. > :28:36.an allegation that the questioner is trying to thwart the will of the

:28:37. > :28:39.people and somehow acting undemocratically. It is neither an

:28:40. > :28:47.answer to the question nor is it true. Many of us who at this time at

:28:48. > :28:50.least have to accept the inevitability of the referendum and

:28:51. > :28:59.Brexit want to maintain closest possible links with the European

:29:00. > :29:03.Union. My Lords, there are many ways to... Take you out into the street

:29:04. > :29:07.and it is perfectly possible to want to be nearer to Millbank or the

:29:08. > :29:11.Westminster Underground. There are valid reasons for choosing either

:29:12. > :29:18.but there is not much wisdom in choosing to leap out at the -- of

:29:19. > :29:22.the nearest first-floor window. Those of us who believe we were

:29:23. > :29:26.correct in passing this amendment and asking the other place to think

:29:27. > :29:29.again will not be pressured into acquiescence by continued

:29:30. > :29:35.allegations that our actions are undemocratic, ignore the people or

:29:36. > :29:41.are disloyal. I have to say my Lords from these benches and my point of

:29:42. > :29:46.view about the European Union, we don't need lessons in loyalty from

:29:47. > :29:57.some, not all, I accept, whose history on the issues of Europe make

:29:58. > :30:00.them experts in disloyalty. I would like to put my name to the amendment

:30:01. > :30:07.that has been rejected by the Commons which we are now debating

:30:08. > :30:13.another amendment on. My position is identical to the noble Lord. I have

:30:14. > :30:19.not moved from my belief in a unilateral statement by the British

:30:20. > :30:23.government would be best for the United Kingdom and best for our

:30:24. > :30:28.citizens in the rest of Europe. But like the noble Lord I am not sure

:30:29. > :30:32.this is the moment to return the ball. But if I may just say to the

:30:33. > :30:37.noble lord the Minister, I have many dealings over the years with the

:30:38. > :30:38.noble lady Baroness Thatcher, mainly on budgetary issues, which were

:30:39. > :30:48.quite stressful. On one occasion when I persuaded her

:30:49. > :30:52.to follow a tactic that I suggested would be the best and she was

:30:53. > :30:58.doubtful about, she looked up and she said, OK, but you had better be

:30:59. > :31:01.right. Well, that is what I say to the Government because their choice

:31:02. > :31:09.of a transactional approach could end in tears and then we will be

:31:10. > :31:13.back here. May I just very briefly come in, as your Lordships' know I

:31:14. > :31:18.voted for the amendments that the Committee Stage, but for the reasons

:31:19. > :31:24.advanced by my noble friend Lord Bowness and for the advanced

:31:25. > :31:30.primates Lord Cormack and Lord Hani I shall not be supporting this

:31:31. > :31:35.moment. I think it has time to come to accept the House of Commons view.

:31:36. > :31:41.There has been a great deal of weeping and gnashing of gums on

:31:42. > :31:45.these issues in recent weeks and months. I don't like the Government

:31:46. > :31:51.policy on this either. It appears to be if we can't help everyone we

:31:52. > :31:55.won't help anyone. Nevertheless, my Lords, we have asked the other place

:31:56. > :32:00.to think again. They have fought again. They have not taken our

:32:01. > :32:13.advice and roll now I believe is not to insist. Front bench. Front bench.

:32:14. > :32:19.I don't want to repeat what I said and I have been listening to people.

:32:20. > :32:25.Some of us who object to the amendments, it isn't because we lack

:32:26. > :32:30.sympathy, understanding or compassion. We did it simply because

:32:31. > :32:37.we thought there was a confusion of process with substance. The second

:32:38. > :32:43.thing that we object to is this which appeared in the Government

:32:44. > :32:47.paper 6.2. It says well we are members of the EU the rights of EU

:32:48. > :32:53.nationals living in the UK and UK nationals living in the EU remain

:32:54. > :33:00.unchanged, as provided for both in the EU free movement directive

:33:01. > :33:05.Article 16 of 2004... And in UK law. Those who have continuously and

:33:06. > :33:11.lawfully been in a country for at least five years automatically have

:33:12. > :33:16.a permanent right to reside. And at the time of Brexit, if that happens

:33:17. > :33:21.and I'm sure it'll happen, EU law will be incorporated into British

:33:22. > :33:26.law. It will be quite a tough thing for the Government went there has

:33:27. > :33:32.been this, to argue that those who have been here for more than five

:33:33. > :33:37.years do not have a right to reside and what it has been passed on the

:33:38. > :33:45.other guys will have to argue again, as far as I am concerned, I came

:33:46. > :33:51.here running from means of torture and difficulty of nearly 50 years I

:33:52. > :33:56.was levelling under the travel document, as a student I was

:33:57. > :34:02.prevented from working, so I know the difficulties. But when I sit

:34:03. > :34:07.here and I think of the members who said that the other side isn't the

:34:08. > :34:14.only one who is right, I think we should all find a language which

:34:15. > :34:21.talks about people as people, they are being used as a bargaining chip,

:34:22. > :34:27.that can't be right, because that casts aspersions who are arguing the

:34:28. > :34:33.other way. And so, my Lords, I think the time has come for us to decide,

:34:34. > :34:37.and I will find it difficult if we want a quick resolution to the EU

:34:38. > :34:40.citizens who are living in this country to continue with further

:34:41. > :34:49.delay as tricking the article as quickly as possible. -- triggering.

:34:50. > :34:53.May I thank the Minister for his rather unfortunate task of having to

:34:54. > :34:58.bring to us the regrettable decision of the Commons on the rights of EU

:34:59. > :35:02.nationals living here, many of course married to Brits with

:35:03. > :35:06.British-born children and possibly no right to remain after Brexit

:35:07. > :35:14.date. This has by a majority of 102 at the Commons to do two very easy

:35:15. > :35:19.things and it asks for both pragmatic and ethical reasons. One

:35:20. > :35:23.was to make it clear to EU citizens whether Brits abroad or Europeans

:35:24. > :35:29.here should not be treated as bargaining chips, to be traded off

:35:30. > :35:33.against each other. The House felt strongly that these families who had

:35:34. > :35:38.as a result of our forthcoming exit suddenly found their own lives on

:35:39. > :35:42.hold given the uncertainty over their future should have their

:35:43. > :35:45.rights secured as soon as possible, but without holding one group's

:35:46. > :35:50.interest hostage for those of another group. Secondly we called on

:35:51. > :35:55.the Prime Minister to act unilaterally in the one area under

:35:56. > :35:58.her control and to say to EU nationals we will ensure you

:35:59. > :36:03.continue to have the rights you expected when you arrived even after

:36:04. > :36:09.we withdraw from the EU. We did it because of the cause of those

:36:10. > :36:12.affected and also of their employers fear the loss of valuable

:36:13. > :36:20.colleagues, some 25,000 from the health service alone now thinking of

:36:21. > :36:24.leaving. The Government and the Commons have rejected Oracle, though

:36:25. > :36:29.I absolve the Brexit Committee who unanimously felt that the Government

:36:30. > :36:34.should act unilaterally on this. And the only reason for the rejection is

:36:35. > :36:38.that it is not a matter that needs to be dealt with in the Bill.

:36:39. > :36:43.Presumably the Government have no other rational for saying to those

:36:44. > :36:48.here, you must wait to know about your future until the 27 have agreed

:36:49. > :36:54.how they will treat UK nationals. But that could take months if not

:36:55. > :36:58.years. We are hearing from Brussels that although citizens rights will

:36:59. > :37:05.be high on the negotiator's agenda it could take years for the final

:37:06. > :37:08.deal as I believe Liam Fox and David Davies confirmed yesterday

:37:09. > :37:14.reflecting on the normal practice of nothing is agreed until everything

:37:15. > :37:21.is agreed. We regret this delay and we lay the blame for this hiatus

:37:22. > :37:24.fairly and squarely at the door of number ten. But we will also

:37:25. > :37:29.campaign for an early resolution to the plight of those caught up in the

:37:30. > :37:34.legal Neverland not of their making. And we will continue to press the

:37:35. > :37:40.Government to move on this and to provide the certainty of our

:37:41. > :37:45.amendments sought. Albeit maybe by other, perhaps I should say

:37:46. > :37:49.imaginative parliamentary roots, a number of which are already under

:37:50. > :37:57.consideration. Because the people concerned cannot wait until March

:37:58. > :38:01.the 20 19th hear their fate -- March 20 19. Turning to the Liberal

:38:02. > :38:08.Democrat amendment, we do not think this is irresponsible move. It is

:38:09. > :38:20.not one that we could support. This has's of Uganda by a majority of

:38:21. > :38:26.102, is clear -- this has's view. As the mover of the original motion, no

:38:27. > :38:31.one in this has will doubt my support, but our view has been

:38:32. > :38:36.rejected in the elected House of Commons and it is clear that the

:38:37. > :38:39.Government is not for turning. On behalf of the opposition I say to

:38:40. > :38:45.the people concerned, we are not giving up on new. We will pursue

:38:46. > :38:50.your interests -- on new. We will pursue your distance in other ways

:38:51. > :38:56.and I will take no lessons from the Liberal Democrats! Who confessed to

:38:57. > :39:00.me outside the chamber that this is appealing to their core vote and

:39:01. > :39:09.they are piling on members because of it. So we are here to move the

:39:10. > :39:15.amendment to help them make members. Well, that may be suitable for them,

:39:16. > :39:22.that is not taking this House is a legislative body seriously. And more

:39:23. > :39:28.than that, they are falsely raising people's hopes when they know that

:39:29. > :39:34.this government in the Commons, despite my best endeavours and

:39:35. > :39:38.others are not going to change their mind, so they should think hard

:39:39. > :39:41.about what they are doing to those people whose expectations they are

:39:42. > :39:48.raising, which will not be fulfilled. I worry that they are

:39:49. > :39:51.also making a bit of a mockery of the House if they think we will vote

:39:52. > :39:55.on this like they did last week in the safe knowledge that others will

:39:56. > :40:03.vote the other way and it would be carried. I also wonder even more

:40:04. > :40:09.about what it does to the decision we took. The Lords majority of 102

:40:10. > :40:13.is bound to shrink. We know that the House, we have heard it already,

:40:14. > :40:16.does not have the appetite to send this back given the majority in the

:40:17. > :40:22.Commons which was higher than before. So instead of us being able

:40:23. > :40:29.to go out from this on the high level of saying by 102 we think the

:40:30. > :40:32.Government is wrong, instead of that, you would have either a lower

:40:33. > :40:37.vote or a lower vote an hour later if it ping-pong is and the way I

:40:38. > :40:46.played ping-pong I never even get it back once! But instead of saying

:40:47. > :40:51.that we ended up on the side of those EU nationals here with the

:40:52. > :40:56.majority of 102, we are going to have a lower vote either now or

:40:57. > :41:03.later on. So, my Lords, it will be I am sure with enormous regret, not so

:41:04. > :41:07.much on behalf of the side of the chamber, but on behalf of the 3

:41:08. > :41:13.million people who are looking for us and to ask for some help it is a

:41:14. > :41:17.regret to me, the Government's position. I don't think it is

:41:18. > :41:21.correct or moral, ethical, I don't even think it is clever

:41:22. > :41:25.negotiations. However we accept the view of the elected house but we

:41:26. > :41:31.won't rest after the night. We will be back urging the Government to

:41:32. > :41:37.allay the fears of people caught in this limbo. I would like to thank

:41:38. > :41:40.those who have contributed to this short debate and once again many of

:41:41. > :41:43.your Lordships' have spoken with great passion. After so many hours

:41:44. > :41:47.of debate I fear that there is very little I can say without repeating

:41:48. > :41:51.myself and travelling over well worn ground so I will be quick and brief.

:41:52. > :41:57.I would start by reiterating once again that the Government's position

:41:58. > :42:02.on this issue is very clear. We do want to secure the status of the UK

:42:03. > :42:07.just so long as we can do so while guaranteeing the position of UK

:42:08. > :42:10.citizens to whom we have a responsibility across the European

:42:11. > :42:15.Union. We cannot and we should not seek to do one without the other.

:42:16. > :42:21.All 4 million people matter. As the assurances given to EU nationals

:42:22. > :42:25.here today, let me repeat what I said previously in debates. Nothing

:42:26. > :42:29.changes in terms of their status until we have left the EU. Nothing

:42:30. > :42:32.can change without the approval of Parliament and the Government will

:42:33. > :42:38.continue to respect its obligations under the ECA chart. This is held by

:42:39. > :42:42.the Government and now by the other place and I would like to remind

:42:43. > :42:45.your Lordships' of the European partners are saying. Many of them

:42:46. > :42:50.have made it clear that they too want a speedy agreement but once we

:42:51. > :42:56.have studied the negotiations. Indeed the bullish premise has said

:42:57. > :43:03.of course these guarantees a group Polish Prime Minister said these

:43:04. > :43:07.would need to be reciprocal. Also British citizens living in other

:43:08. > :43:11.states of European Union would have. We agreement as soon as possible and

:43:12. > :43:17.I believe we are in a good position to do just that. Just last Friday,

:43:18. > :43:21.the lead negotiator for the European Parliament told the BBC that the

:43:22. > :43:25.issue of EU citizens' rights post Brexit should be addressed and I

:43:26. > :43:32.quote before we talk about anything else. And on the matters raised by

:43:33. > :43:37.Lord Davies and Lord Campbell savours I would highlight the words

:43:38. > :43:40.of my honourable friend the Secretary of State who said earlier

:43:41. > :43:43.this afternoon and the other place that the Government would aim to get

:43:44. > :43:47.all member states, the commission and the council in an exchange of

:43:48. > :43:51.letters to explain what they read the right of EU citizens are and

:43:52. > :43:57.will be once the E in the UK has left the EU, once an agreement has

:43:58. > :44:01.been reached in negotiations. The process of ratification, this is a

:44:02. > :44:04.matter for negotiation but it is the Government's intention to have this

:44:05. > :44:07.agreement concluded by the end of the two years. Our commitment to

:44:08. > :44:12.seeking an agreement is clear but the Government will not be able to

:44:13. > :44:16.set about securing the strip Sepracor guarantee until we have

:44:17. > :44:20.passed the Bill and trickled article 30. So I would urge your Lordships'

:44:21. > :44:23.to let this Bill go through unamended and not to prolong the

:44:24. > :44:26.passing of this Bill is lead Prime Minister can indeed trigger article

:44:27. > :44:35.that the ANSI B certainty we all want to offer both European and UK

:44:36. > :44:40.citizens. -- uncertainty. I thank the noble lord to have taken part in

:44:41. > :44:44.this debate. I pay tribute to the noble lord Lord Cormack for the

:44:45. > :44:50.principled advocacy he has undertaken on behalf of this issue

:44:51. > :44:55.but I must confess I cannot follow the constitutional argument that he

:44:56. > :44:59.has made that somehow we cannot insist to the elected house or in

:45:00. > :45:05.deed that other noble lord 's have made. I could understand that if

:45:06. > :45:08.this has never did insist, I could understand if the noble lord Lord

:45:09. > :45:13.Cormack never voted to insist against the will of the elected

:45:14. > :45:18.house, but he knows that is not the case so I wonder why on this issue

:45:19. > :45:24.of such vital importance to so many people we should not.

:45:25. > :45:29.Perhaps I can answer him. We do agree on the fundamentals of the

:45:30. > :45:36.issue that this is a constitutional matter and what is the point of

:45:37. > :45:41.prolonging a time sensitive Bill on which the fortunes of so many do

:45:42. > :45:49.ultimately depend, merely to have the satisfaction of being soundly

:45:50. > :45:52.beaten in the lobbies? Whether we are soundly beaten in the lobby is a

:45:53. > :45:58.matter for noble Lords in this House, it is not a matter for Lord

:45:59. > :46:02.Cormack. I seek to put my argument and I hope to convince people.

:46:03. > :46:06.Nonetheless, as I have said, I pay tribute to the advocacy he has given

:46:07. > :46:15.so far and to all the noble Lords who have made this issue a crucial

:46:16. > :46:19.one. I am sorry that the government continues to refuse to do the right

:46:20. > :46:23.sings, my Lords, and I am sorry that they have hailed to make any

:46:24. > :46:31.concessions or indeed to answer any of the questions that we will put to

:46:32. > :46:35.them at committee stage. -- that were put to them at committee stage.

:46:36. > :46:40.I am particularly sorry that they intend to allow fear and uncertainty

:46:41. > :46:47.of millions of EU and UK citizens to continue. But, my noble Lords, the

:46:48. > :46:51.Minister to be fair to him has been given an impossible job, defending

:46:52. > :46:57.the indefensible and I respect the skill with which he does it but what

:46:58. > :47:00.I cannot respect is the seven current cabinet ministers who backed

:47:01. > :47:06.the vote league campaign which made an unequivocal unilateral commitment

:47:07. > :47:11.to EU citizens during the referendum campaign, a commitment that has been

:47:12. > :47:19.betrayed and I hope the noble Lords in this House who supported that

:47:20. > :47:24.campaign and were involved in vote Leave will think about that

:47:25. > :47:27.commitment without caveats and conditions. That is the position of

:47:28. > :47:32.the government. What I don't understand is the position taken by

:47:33. > :47:38.the Labour front bench in the House today. Though I recognise that it

:47:39. > :47:45.would be as the world rings too many Labour members as it is to me, I

:47:46. > :47:50.would say to that noble lady that if you want to get the ball back across

:47:51. > :47:56.the net it is very important not to drop the bat before you get there

:47:57. > :48:02.and the way in which things are decided in this House, the Labour

:48:03. > :48:08.Party has a key role and if it was prepared to stand behind this then

:48:09. > :48:15.obviously there would be much more chance of success. Last Tuesday the

:48:16. > :48:20.leader of the Labour peers in this House made the great play of

:48:21. > :48:26.attacking the Liberal Democrats as indeed the noble lady has done and

:48:27. > :48:31.she asked how we could oppose the ill given how extraordinary

:48:32. > :48:37.important the amendment on citizens rights was. I voted that the Bill

:48:38. > :48:42.should not pass because I firmly believe that we should not begin

:48:43. > :48:46.withdrawal negotiations until there is a mechanism for the people to

:48:47. > :48:51.have a final say on the outcome of those negotiations but I can say

:48:52. > :48:55.that there were two things in my mind when I went through the

:48:56. > :48:59.division lobby. The first thing was that the government was making it

:49:00. > :49:06.crystal clear, even at that stage, that they would concede nothing in

:49:07. > :49:11.regard to the amendments and the second thing I had in my mind was

:49:12. > :49:16.that the noble lady, Ladysmith of Basildon, had already indicated that

:49:17. > :49:21.if the Bill was returned to this House then she would concede

:49:22. > :49:26.everything, that she would not... He is absolutely wrong on that. If he

:49:27. > :49:29.is going to quote me, he should do so correctly. What I have always

:49:30. > :49:34.said is in this House we respect the privacy of the other place. We also

:49:35. > :49:40.said no extended ping-pong but we also have said we would listen to

:49:41. > :49:42.what the Commons had to say. If he believes by voting for this

:49:43. > :49:45.amendment to night that it will change the mind of the other place,

:49:46. > :49:49.he can go ahead but do not give false hope to people in this House

:49:50. > :49:56.to make a point and the other side to think again. You got us into this

:49:57. > :50:04.mess, no use in you people opposite jeering me. The noble lady's

:50:05. > :50:10.argument makes no sense at all, she has quoted in the many, many

:50:11. > :50:17.divisions insisting on amendments. Insisting on amendments when she

:50:18. > :50:26.knew they had no chance of success. It is true. So, my Lords, it turns

:50:27. > :50:32.out that those amendments were apparently, the many amendments she

:50:33. > :50:36.has voted for in the past to insist to the Commons when they did not

:50:37. > :50:39.give in were not going to give in, were more important than this

:50:40. > :50:46.amendment. I am sorry about that and I am the Wills Byatt but I hope the

:50:47. > :50:49.noble Lords -- and I am the Wills Byatt. But I hope the noble Lords

:50:50. > :50:53.will pay attention to their conscience rather than their party

:50:54. > :50:57.whip and join us in the division lobby and in view of the portals of

:50:58. > :51:03.this issue to millions of EU and UK citizens, I would like to test the

:51:04. > :51:09.opinion of the House. -- in view of the importance of this issue. The

:51:10. > :51:13.question is that A1 be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say

:51:14. > :54:13.content. The contrary not content. Clearly bar.

:54:14. > :54:23.The question is that amendment tend to work -- A1 be agreed to. As many

:54:24. > :54:29.that opinion will say content. The contrary not content. The contents

:54:30. > :54:31.will go to the right by the throne, the not contents to the left by the

:54:32. > :59:56.bar. The question is that amendment A1 be

:59:57. > :05:27.agreed to. They have voted, content 135, not

:05:28. > :05:35.content 's 274. So will they not content 's habit. -- the not

:05:36. > :05:43.contents have it. The question is now that motion A be agreed to. As

:05:44. > :05:48.many of that opinion will say content, the country but content,

:05:49. > :05:56.the contents have it. Bush be, Lord Bridges. I beg to move motion B that

:05:57. > :06:02.this House does not insist on its amendment two to which the House

:06:03. > :06:08.disagreed. My Lords, last week I set out the three core principles

:06:09. > :06:11.governing the UK approach to living the European Union. Namely that the

:06:12. > :06:16.Government is determined to honour the result of the referendum, that

:06:17. > :06:22.everything we do will be determined by our national interest and that

:06:23. > :06:26.Parliamentary sovereignty is key. This that principle was reflected in

:06:27. > :06:32.the Government commitment to give parliament a vote on the final

:06:33. > :06:36.agreement. This House believes that this commitment to be enshrined in

:06:37. > :06:40.legislation and your Lordships' also sought to go further by giving

:06:41. > :06:43.Parliament the power to say whether or not the Prime Minister can

:06:44. > :06:48.terminate negotiations with the European Union. The issue of

:06:49. > :06:52.Parliamentary approval had been debated by the other place before

:06:53. > :06:57.the Bill came to this House. It disagreed with amending the Bill

:06:58. > :07:03.then and having considered this specific amendment it has no

:07:04. > :07:07.disagreed again by a majority of 45. So, my Lords, in essence and to keep

:07:08. > :07:12.it very short, the Government position has not changed. This

:07:13. > :07:15.amendment is unnecessary, it would create untold uncertainty and it

:07:16. > :07:19.would undermine our negotiating position. This is why the other

:07:20. > :07:23.place consider... This is why the other place considered this issue

:07:24. > :07:27.again, let me finish this and then he will be able to speak I am sure

:07:28. > :07:30.once I have sat down, rejected this amendment and therefore I urge the

:07:31. > :07:36.House not to suspend it on this amendment and I beg to move. I will

:07:37. > :07:42.take... I will take one intervention. I'm grateful for

:07:43. > :07:46.taking an intervention. I am genuinely puzzled. If it is the case

:07:47. > :07:51.that John Major could seek Parliamentary approval for the

:07:52. > :07:53.Maastricht Bill twice without weakening his bargaining position,

:07:54. > :07:58.how is it that this government cannot allow Parliament to have a

:07:59. > :08:02.say once without weakening various? I genuinely puzzled by his position.

:08:03. > :08:05.He went on national television saying that he would obey the

:08:06. > :08:10.decision of the British people and now he is trying to get away from

:08:11. > :08:14.those comments. That is what I think will baffle many people. We have

:08:15. > :08:17.made it very clear about the Government position. When an

:08:18. > :08:21.agreement has been reached we will give this House and the other place

:08:22. > :08:25.the chance to vote on that but that is the Government's position but I

:08:26. > :08:31.urge your Lordships' not to insist on this amendment and I beg to move.

:08:32. > :08:41.The question is that motion B be agreed to, amendment B1. I beg to

:08:42. > :08:48.move amendment B as an amendment to motion B. Leave out from house to

:08:49. > :08:56.amend and insert, do insist on its amendment. The Secretary of State

:08:57. > :08:59.for Exiting the EU David Davis told the Andrew Marr show yesterday that

:09:00. > :09:04.he was determined to make sure Britain does not fall off a cliff

:09:05. > :09:09.edge, without an agreement in other words. Meanwhile Foreign Secretary

:09:10. > :09:14.Boris Johnson told the rival pastern on Sunday that it would be perfectly

:09:15. > :09:19.OK if we weren't able to get an agreement. While the last in the

:09:20. > :09:23.trio trade Secretary Liam Fox told Sky News that not having a deal

:09:24. > :09:28.would be bad, not just with the EU but for Europe as a whole and I

:09:29. > :09:34.agree with Liam Fox. So the three Mary Brexiteer is seen to be rather

:09:35. > :09:39.at odds about the prospects. -- merry. Another thinks it would be

:09:40. > :09:45.bad another thinks it would be bad, OK, another says it wouldn't happen.

:09:46. > :09:48.Given that Cabinet is all over the place it is perfectly self-evident

:09:49. > :09:55.that Parliament needs to stay in the driving seat throughout the process

:09:56. > :09:59.to prevent a disorderly and catastrophic plunge over the cliff

:10:00. > :10:04.edge. The Liberal Democrats would add is with the people having the

:10:05. > :10:08.last word. We have been reminded by the press of the Treasury view that

:10:09. > :10:14.an extreme Brexit, crashing out of the EU without a trade deal and

:10:15. > :10:18.relying only on WTO rules, would cause a major economic shock and the

:10:19. > :10:24.option with the most negative long-term impact on the economy. And

:10:25. > :10:29.the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee chaired by Conservative MP

:10:30. > :10:35.Kristian Blunt has just now warned of uncertainty and shock of eight

:10:36. > :10:39.hard Brexit including confusion for EU and British citizens, the sudden

:10:40. > :10:45.return of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic as

:10:46. > :10:52.well as a major hit to the economy. My Lords, government assurances of a

:10:53. > :10:56.vote on a final deal are not enough. Firstly it is Executive arrogance

:10:57. > :11:01.and presumption of the most preposterous kind for the Government

:11:02. > :11:05.to insist that MPs would have to choose only between the deal

:11:06. > :11:13.brokered by the Prime Minister and crashing out of the EU on the WTO

:11:14. > :11:18.terms in a hard Brexit. Secondly Tory government assurances do not

:11:19. > :11:22.have a good track record. There are broken promises include manifesto

:11:23. > :11:27.commitments on safeguarding the UK's position in the single market, I'm

:11:28. > :11:32.not raising National Insurance contributions and on lifting the 15

:11:33. > :11:37.year cap on votes for Brits abroad, the very Brits they claim to be

:11:38. > :11:41.looking after incidentally. This is in addition to unfulfilled

:11:42. > :11:46.assurances in respect of the dubs amendment on refugee children and

:11:47. > :11:53.pledges on the full implementation of Ledson. At Report Stage the noble

:11:54. > :12:03.lord Bridges said that of course we will honour our promise. But that is

:12:04. > :12:05.five broken promises already and an assurance now and Parliamentary

:12:06. > :12:11.sovereignty may well be destined to go just the same way. Given that the

:12:12. > :12:15.track record on the issue of Parliamentary sovereignty itself

:12:16. > :12:21.since last June has involved resistance all the way from this

:12:22. > :12:26.government on any restraint on Executive power. So a commitment on

:12:27. > :12:31.a vote is wide enough in scope to be meaningful in the event of no deal

:12:32. > :12:40.must be written into this Bill. The Government has given no good reason

:12:41. > :12:47.way that should not be so. The noble lord Lord Heseltine who sadly I

:12:48. > :12:52.think is not in his place tonight... LAUGHTER

:12:53. > :12:59.. He wrote yesterday about how members of the House of Lords were

:13:00. > :13:03.called upon to issue -- vote in an issue of principle, the supremacy of

:13:04. > :13:09.Parliament in approving or rejecting the outcome of his Brexit

:13:10. > :13:13.negotiations. He said, some say the involvement of Parliament will

:13:14. > :13:18.awaken the Prime Minister's hand. I reject this argument as mere

:13:19. > :13:24.blackmail. -- we can. Much of it peddled by extreme Brexiteers, some

:13:25. > :13:29.of whom he added anchor for the hardest Brexit of all without a deal

:13:30. > :13:36.of any kind with our EU partners. So he rejected the cheap jibes uttered

:13:37. > :13:42.by the Brexiteer fanatics, some of them he regretted to save sitting on

:13:43. > :13:45.the Government front bench. My Lords, the Noble Baroness Ladysmith

:13:46. > :13:50.from Basildon last week set the tone for staying the course. She said we

:13:51. > :13:54.passed those amendment but as some kind of vanity exercise or just to

:13:55. > :14:00.make a point, we are not a debating society where we have our debate and

:14:01. > :14:03.then shrugged off home to or to the pub because we have made our point

:14:04. > :14:07.and have no thought about what happens next. She issued a rallying

:14:08. > :14:12.cry that responsibility is not just about winning but also taking

:14:13. > :14:18.responsibility for our actions. Since she was, could, never much

:14:19. > :14:22.committed to these two mentalist. The group very much committed. I

:14:23. > :14:25.hope that that commitment will be made evident from the Labour benches

:14:26. > :14:33.tonight or at least from many of them. Because it is facilitating

:14:34. > :14:40.what is becoming clear is the real agenda of mini if not all of this

:14:41. > :14:44.Tory government which is to pursue Brexit at any cost, to go over that

:14:45. > :14:49.cliff in what they apparently believe will be a winning Tory Party

:14:50. > :14:58.formula for a 2020 election. We have delivered Brexit, maybe, but at what

:14:59. > :15:02.terrible cost? My Lords, for us as well as the noble lord Lord

:15:03. > :15:11.Heseltine last week, for the Liberal Democrats this is a matter of

:15:12. > :15:15.principle and conscience. Not the Government but Parliament must be in

:15:16. > :15:20.charge for the good of the country, so my Lords, I beg to move.

:15:21. > :15:32.The original question was that the motion be agreed to since when

:15:33. > :15:41.amendment B1 has been included. The question therefore is that amendment

:15:42. > :15:47.B1 be agreed to. I've moved the amendment last week, which was

:15:48. > :15:51.approved by your lordship's House. I very much regret that the House of

:15:52. > :15:57.Commons has not taken the advice of this House, indeed the government

:15:58. > :16:03.has made no effort to move in the direction of the use of this House.

:16:04. > :16:10.My Lords, we won the vote last week because we won the argument. That's

:16:11. > :16:16.why the amendment was carried by the majority of 98 with the largest

:16:17. > :16:24.number of noble Lords noted, so I understand, in any vote since 1831.

:16:25. > :16:31.But it is now time for this House to give way to the House of Commons on

:16:32. > :16:37.this matter. Earlier this evening, the government had a majority of 45

:16:38. > :16:43.in the Commons. There is no reason whatsoever to think that if this

:16:44. > :16:50.House were to stand its ground that the House of Commons would changes

:16:51. > :16:54.view later this evening. For the Liberal Democrats I have to say to

:16:55. > :16:59.the noble lady, for the Liberal Democrats to press this matter is in

:17:00. > :17:03.Parliamentary terms, I say nothing about any other consideration, but

:17:04. > :17:10.in parliamentary terms it is a completely pointless gesture and I

:17:11. > :17:16.am for my part, cannot support it. I also bear in mind that the Secretary

:17:17. > :17:23.of State this afternoon gave a very clear assurance that any agreement

:17:24. > :17:28.will be put to both houses for their approval. I would prefer that to be

:17:29. > :17:33.in the Bill but we do have an assurance. We have no assurance on

:17:34. > :17:40.Parliamentary approval if the Prime Minister decides that it would be

:17:41. > :17:46.better to leave the EU with no deal and I regret that at by take some

:17:47. > :17:52.comfort from the point that was made last week by a number of noble Lords

:17:53. > :17:58.who were supporting the government that Parliament has ample means of

:17:59. > :18:04.asserting its sovereignty in those circumcised is. My Lords, I have two

:18:05. > :18:10.other brief points. The first is that this Bill has demonstrated the

:18:11. > :18:16.value of Parliamentary sovereignty at this stage of notifying our

:18:17. > :18:23.intention to withdraw from the EU and my Lords, it is only because of

:18:24. > :18:28.the determination of my client, Mrs Jean Miller and the independence of

:18:29. > :18:31.the divisional Court and the Supreme Court that we have this Bill at all

:18:32. > :18:48.-- Mrs Gina Miller. I hope the governors

:18:49. > :18:51.will show more question on the issue of Parliamentary sovereignty down on

:18:52. > :18:56.this notification stage. My Lords, the other point I want to make is

:18:57. > :19:04.that I bought my part where very much in mind that this is only the

:19:05. > :19:07.beginning of the process for withdrawal from the EU, point which

:19:08. > :19:12.the noble Lord and Minister has repeatedly emphasised. A much more

:19:13. > :19:17.complex Bill is going to be brought forward in the next session to

:19:18. > :19:22.repeal the 1972 European communities act and to maintain the rights and

:19:23. > :19:29.duties which owe their origin to EU law. The government is, I think, on

:19:30. > :19:35.notice that this House will be scrutinising that Bill with especial

:19:36. > :19:39.care to ensure that Parliamentary sovereignty and the rule of law and

:19:40. > :19:47.other constitutional principles are upheld. Your lordship' Constitution

:19:48. > :19:52.committee, of which I am a member, has produced under the excellent

:19:53. > :19:59.chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Lang, an introduction to some of the

:20:00. > :20:03.issues which are going to arise. So, this is just the start of the

:20:04. > :20:08.debate. This House has made known its use on the importance of

:20:09. > :20:12.Parliamentary sovereignty. I very much look forward to continuing the

:20:13. > :20:21.debate with the noble Lord, the minister, but not on this Bill. For

:20:22. > :20:26.the best part of 35 years ago I had a hand in trying to amend what John

:20:27. > :20:31.Carpenter described as the longest suicide note in history. I played a

:20:32. > :20:40.part in trying to amend what I now think we should call the shortest

:20:41. > :20:43.suicide note in history. But on the question of how Parliament fits into

:20:44. > :20:51.this, Parliament will be there in two years' time and I think that

:20:52. > :20:55.there will be plenty of opportunity then, I would have preferred it

:20:56. > :21:00.today, but opportunity then for Parliament to have a decisive stage,

:21:01. > :21:07.whatever the small print says, both in oration to different scenarios --

:21:08. > :21:11.to have a decisive say, whatever the small print says, in relation to

:21:12. > :21:15.different scenarios, whatever the outcome may be, which I don't think

:21:16. > :21:20.will be a happy occasion. I want to discuss a fundamental issue. I think

:21:21. > :21:25.we are absolutely justified on this occasion for this amendment is not

:21:26. > :21:30.to give way to the House of Commons because the House of Commons has

:21:31. > :21:35.now, in effect, abandoned the principle of Parliamentary democracy

:21:36. > :21:42.and has taken the view that the referendum verdict is sacrosanct and

:21:43. > :21:47.cannot be challenged and that is quite clear what the opinion of the

:21:48. > :21:51.government is. Now, what does that mean? It means that MPs are

:21:52. > :21:56.delegates and not representatives. It means that there is no point in

:21:57. > :22:01.Parliamentary government considering the argument and debate, considering

:22:02. > :22:04.the evidence and the argument. They have two abate the will of the

:22:05. > :22:10.people. That is now the principal. Now, -- they have two abate a will

:22:11. > :22:14.of the people. Now, I was not an admirer of Margaret Thatcher but she

:22:15. > :22:17.was not someone who said to the electorate, these are my principles

:22:18. > :22:22.and if you don't like them, I will change them. That is, in effect,

:22:23. > :22:33.what those who supported the remainder cause and who have felt --

:22:34. > :22:36.the Remain cause and those he felt that Brexit would be disastrous for

:22:37. > :22:41.this country have now accepted it. It is a dangerous step toward the

:22:42. > :22:46.doctrine that the people's will must always prevail. My Lords, this is

:22:47. > :22:58.the doctrine which has always been favoured by Hitler, by Mussolini, by

:22:59. > :23:01.Josef Stalin, by Erdogan at this present time. It is a denial of

:23:02. > :23:08.democracy that we have supported to great effect in this country. Now we

:23:09. > :23:13.are abandoning it. We are the guardians of Parliamentary democracy

:23:14. > :23:23.and we are right in this, we are the Democrats and we are right to

:23:24. > :23:27.support the Democratic cause. I ask a question of noble Lords who may be

:23:28. > :23:31.thinking of voting against the Commons and in favour of previous

:23:32. > :23:36.amendment and the question is this, how do they justify extolling the

:23:37. > :23:40.supremacy of Parliament, the House of Commons and this House and want

:23:41. > :23:45.in Parliament to have the last word on the terms of our leaving the EU

:23:46. > :23:51.went for the last 43 years they have supported our EU membership and

:23:52. > :23:54.still do so? I ask my Lords because perhaps the main achievement of the

:23:55. > :23:59.European Union is precisely that national parliaments have been

:24:00. > :24:02.emasculated and that much of their former power has been transferred to

:24:03. > :24:11.the institutions of the European Union. The unelected bureaucrats in

:24:12. > :24:18.the commission have the monopoly to impose EU laws and secret which are

:24:19. > :24:21.then negotiated in secret by more bureaucrats in the committee of

:24:22. > :24:23.permanent representatives and other undecided in the Council of

:24:24. > :24:33.ministers from national governments, not parliaments. Our government has

:24:34. > :24:36.some 14% of the votes. EU law now a large proportion of our law is then

:24:37. > :24:40.enforced by the commission and the so-called Court of Justice in

:24:41. > :24:50.Luxembourg. The point is that our national parliament, which remain

:24:51. > :24:54.supporters have been talking about in this anti-democratic failure is

:24:55. > :24:59.excluded from this whole process. We have EU committees in both houses of

:25:00. > :25:02.parliament which scrutinise and very little of the legislation which is

:25:03. > :25:07.imposed on us by Brussels, they can't change any of it and never

:25:08. > :25:13.have. Nor can House of Commons or your Lordships House change any of

:25:14. > :25:18.it, nor have we ever. Yet, my Lords, it is this system which those who

:25:19. > :25:22.have tabled this new amendment in truth wish to perpetuate with their

:25:23. > :25:27.new-found faith in Parliamentary democracy. My Lords, the people,

:25:28. > :25:33.with whom ultimate sovereignty resides, voted to leave that system.

:25:34. > :25:38.The House of Commons has this evening again agreed with the

:25:39. > :25:42.government that the Bill should become law as originally drafted. I

:25:43. > :25:55.would of course be amused to hear the noble Remainers answer but I

:25:56. > :26:04.trust this is the end of the matter. A response to Lord Pannick who

:26:05. > :26:09.always speaks with clarity and grace. If the Prime Minister does

:26:10. > :26:16.not get an agreement, whatever she does, surely she will bring it to

:26:17. > :26:23.Parliament but the problem is this, if I understand it right, triggering

:26:24. > :26:26.Article 50 is an irreversible act. Two years after triggering Article

:26:27. > :26:32.50 the UK will be be used. It will do so with or without a deal but

:26:33. > :26:37.either way it will leave. Because Article 50 paragraph three makes

:26:38. > :26:43.clear that treaties will cease to apply two years after negotiation

:26:44. > :26:46.has been made. It is possible that the EU 27 might unanimously agreed

:26:47. > :26:54.to extend the negotiation period beyond the two years but this cannot

:26:55. > :26:56.taken for granted, nor should it be assumed that it will offer anything

:26:57. > :27:01.but a brief extension. The amendment for me shows no awareness and the

:27:02. > :27:07.reality is actually presented by Article 50 timescale, so this

:27:08. > :27:12.amendment overlooks the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal)

:27:13. > :27:16.Bill is about triggering Article 50 and the formal divorce agreement,

:27:17. > :27:22.neither this Bill nor Article 50 are without negotiating a new... As far

:27:23. > :27:30.as I am concerned, once we trigger it, we leave with an agreement or

:27:31. > :27:36.without, so why put it in section four in the amendment? Why don't we

:27:37. > :27:42.just follow what the House of Commons has just done? Article 50 of

:27:43. > :27:45.the Lisbon Treaty says that, and I quote, "The council needs to obtain

:27:46. > :27:52.the European Parliament's consent, voting by simple majority with the

:27:53. > :27:56.votes cast before it can conclude the withdrawal agreement." This

:27:57. > :28:03.means that all amendments of the European Parliament, including the

:28:04. > :28:07.UK members, have the legal right to vote on any final agreement or

:28:08. > :28:13.indeed lack of it last members of the British Parliament have no such

:28:14. > :28:18.legal right because the government refuses to put such a right on the

:28:19. > :28:28.face of the Bill. I think really that does try to answer his point

:28:29. > :28:32.that supporting the EU Parliament, having legal rights on the

:28:33. > :28:37.withdrawal agreement that our own elected members of parliament will

:28:38. > :28:43.not have, seems to me, at least, to be completely inconsistent with why

:28:44. > :28:47.many people voted for Brexit. They voted for Brexit to have better

:28:48. > :28:53.control of our own laws and by refusing to put this on the face of

:28:54. > :28:58.the Bill, the government is in effect making our legal rights less

:28:59. > :29:02.than those of the European Parliament. I think that is a very

:29:03. > :29:07.strong argument on this point that needs to be aired and I hope Lord

:29:08. > :29:12.Pearson accept is that that is indeed the legal position. I should

:29:13. > :29:17.like to answer Lord Pearson as well. I have not supported the youth for

:29:18. > :29:21.45 years but even I think that this amendment has validity -- I have not

:29:22. > :29:26.supported the EU for 45 years. I did not expect it to be, a prime

:29:27. > :29:30.ministers with a very small mandate and a small coterie of people making

:29:31. > :29:33.these decisions. I think people imagined they were voting that our

:29:34. > :29:39.parliament would have some sort of supremacy. I have listened very

:29:40. > :29:42.carefully to the government on this and I have found that their

:29:43. > :29:46.arguments are not argument at all, they are actually comments and

:29:47. > :29:50.specious comments at that. This is not a time sensitive issue. We are

:29:51. > :29:55.not actually triggering Article 50 until much later in the month. It is

:29:56. > :29:59.not true that a promise is as good as having something on the face of

:30:00. > :30:04.the Bill. Quite honestly, I think it is time that we accepted this is a

:30:05. > :30:10.mistake and we really ought to support the amendment. I will be

:30:11. > :30:16.voting for it. I regret that it won't pass, though.

:30:17. > :30:27.I want to put a noble lord question to Mr before the speech. If he could

:30:28. > :30:33.just answer a simple question, I think his colleague in the other

:30:34. > :30:37.place has answered the question as to what happens if there is a deal

:30:38. > :30:41.on the Article 50 withdrawal agreement, the matter will be

:30:42. > :30:45.brought to the two houses for approval. I think he has also

:30:46. > :30:50.answered the question as to what happens if there is a new

:30:51. > :30:56.partnership agreement, the agreement will be brought to both houses for

:30:57. > :31:01.their approval. So far so good. Now, could the noble lord just say, what

:31:02. > :31:05.happens if the Prime Minister decides that no deal is better than

:31:06. > :31:15.a bad deal? What happens then? Answer, please. My Lords, I was

:31:16. > :31:22.never someone to enjoy saying I told you so, because I rather expect my

:31:23. > :31:25.advice to be heeded. And never was this more the case done with the

:31:26. > :31:36.highest ever votes in the Lords last week. The 634 peers voting of which

:31:37. > :31:41.366 advised that the promised vote on the outcome of the negotiations

:31:42. > :31:46.should be inscribed in law. That would make it very clear to the

:31:47. > :31:50.Government but also to the EU commission and the Council as well

:31:51. > :31:54.as to the European Parliament that this Parliament is a player in the

:31:55. > :31:59.process of how we extract ourselves from the EU. As my noble friend

:32:00. > :32:05.Baroness Symons has said, without our change the European Parliament

:32:06. > :32:10.and indeed with its UK members in it, as the right in law to consent

:32:11. > :32:16.to the deal but this Parliament has no such guaranteed right. Our

:32:17. > :32:20.amendment last week gave legal certainty to the promised vote and

:32:21. > :32:25.the legislative authority for the withdrawal agreement. Something with

:32:26. > :32:31.the Government may well have to do another way if not in this Bill. As

:32:32. > :32:38.there is currently no legislative way of authorising the withdrawal

:32:39. > :32:42.deal ahead of a treaty. My Lords, there are challenges ahead,

:32:43. > :32:45.withdrawal is not simply about the divorce or even just about the

:32:46. > :32:51.potential shape of new trade deals with the EU 27, it will be about

:32:52. > :32:54.forging a new partnership are concordat which will cover so much

:32:55. > :33:01.more than trade vital though that is. We will need a vision of how we

:33:02. > :33:05.should work together after exit, not just on the hard subjects such as

:33:06. > :33:10.security and terrorism but on the whole slate of our approach to the

:33:11. > :33:18.economy. We will need to negotiate with the EU in a way that shows our

:33:19. > :33:21.openness and our willingness to retain our strong bonds because that

:33:22. > :33:29.will influence our future relationships with the EU as a block

:33:30. > :33:33.and the 27 members individually. It is with this reason that it is

:33:34. > :33:41.important to recognise Parliament's vote in the process. Because we will

:33:42. > :33:48.be a part of those negotiations with the EU and with the 27 countries.

:33:49. > :33:52.All of our contracts and they in business, trade unions and consumers

:33:53. > :33:58.will be working across Europe's to help us get the best deal for this

:33:59. > :34:04.country. But Parliament should be a part of that. In so far as we heed

:34:05. > :34:11.the polls, they also indicate 2-1 in favour of Parliament having a

:34:12. > :34:16.meaningful vote at the end of negotiations. And this has spoke

:34:17. > :34:22.very clearly last week. So I deeply regret that the Government and the

:34:23. > :34:27.Commons did not hear our plea. But as the noble lord Lord Pannick says,

:34:28. > :34:36.their view will not change and we will not make a worthless gesture.

:34:37. > :34:45.What I believe the noble lady Lady Longford is now tweeting is shabby

:34:46. > :34:48.of us. That is it, that we have heard regrettably that the Commons

:34:49. > :34:53.did not hear the overwhelming vote in this House. But what they will

:34:54. > :34:57.say is that we will hold the Government to its promise of a vote

:34:58. > :35:00.before that in the European Parliament and we will work to

:35:01. > :35:08.devise a parliamentary route of establishing it more firmly, not

:35:09. > :35:11.least because having the support of Parliament during negotiations would

:35:12. > :35:18.be a source of strength rather than of weakness. The Government has made

:35:19. > :35:26.the wrong call on this amendment, but we will seek to rectify that

:35:27. > :35:31.another way. My Lords, we have spent considerable time debating this

:35:32. > :35:34.issue at Committee and report and again today and I fear that once

:35:35. > :35:40.again there is little I can really add to this debate, especially as I

:35:41. > :35:43.am very much aware that my last attempt to convince the House of the

:35:44. > :35:48.merits of my case not result in what I can call this excess, as the noble

:35:49. > :35:55.lord Pannick said it is the largest vote on this House on record with a

:35:56. > :36:00.turnover of 634 members, the fact that 366 of your Lordships' did not

:36:01. > :36:07.accept my arguments was, as I hope, as they put in Sicily, nothing

:36:08. > :36:10.personal, just business. But my right honourable friend the

:36:11. > :36:14.Secretary of State did a bit better is happening and the other place

:36:15. > :36:18.rejected this amendment by a majority of 45. And let me briefly

:36:19. > :36:22.remind your Lordships' of the Government's case. First, as I had

:36:23. > :36:26.said, this is a simple and straightforward Bill designed to

:36:27. > :36:32.implement the referendum result and respect the Supreme Court's

:36:33. > :36:36.judgment. It is the culmination of a long democratic process. A process

:36:37. > :36:40.started by the people at the last election endorsed by this House in

:36:41. > :36:46.an act of Parliament and then voted for by the people at the referendum

:36:47. > :36:53.itself. And Parliament will continue to play its part through scrutiny of

:36:54. > :36:58.and passing future legislation. Through questions and debate and

:36:59. > :37:03.most important of all, a vote on the final agreement. So despite putting

:37:04. > :37:04.noble lord said we are not abandoning Parliamentary

:37:05. > :37:10.sovereignty, our commitment to a vote in both houses, which we fully

:37:11. > :37:15.expect and intend to take place before the European Parliament votes

:37:16. > :37:21.on any deal, is an absolute consistent and it will be honoured.

:37:22. > :37:23.-- commitment. Furthermore as my right honourable friend the

:37:24. > :37:27.Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union said this afternoon

:37:28. > :37:32.in the other place, and I could, of course Parliament can, if it wishes,

:37:33. > :37:35.have a vote and a debate on any issue. But as a matter for

:37:36. > :37:42.Parliament and it is not for a minister to try and constrain it.

:37:43. > :37:49.And so, as I have said on a number of occasions now, subclauses 1-3 are

:37:50. > :37:52.unnecessary, but as I said before, this amendment goes further. It

:37:53. > :37:57.seeks to make it impossible for the Prime Minister to walk away without

:37:58. > :38:00.a vote in parliament. Article 50 does not give the European

:38:01. > :38:03.Parliament that power. The European Commission would not have to go to

:38:04. > :38:07.the European Parliament if they wanted to walk away from the

:38:08. > :38:10.negotiations. It is incorrect to say that the amendment would simply put

:38:11. > :38:15.on the face of the spilled the same power of that given to the European

:38:16. > :38:18.Parliament. And also as I argued before it is unclear what the

:38:19. > :38:23.effects of this would be in any case. If Parliament would devote

:38:24. > :38:26.against the Prime Minister walking away, is she to accept the deal on

:38:27. > :38:30.offer goes like this you meant to negotiate a better one or is she too

:38:31. > :38:35.tried to revoke the UK public but as withdraw? We don't know and as I

:38:36. > :38:39.have said, such vagueness for something so critical is

:38:40. > :38:43.unacceptable. My Lords, the people voted to leave the EU in a

:38:44. > :38:48.referendum granted to them by this Parliament. We will respect the

:38:49. > :38:51.result. We are confident that the UK and the EU can indeed reach a

:38:52. > :38:55.positive deal on our future partnership, as this would read the

:38:56. > :38:59.mutual benefit of both this country and the European Union. And we will

:39:00. > :39:07.approach the negotiations in that spread. So as the noble lord point,

:39:08. > :39:11.it is very hard to see what vote would be there was no deal at all,

:39:12. > :39:15.in the absence of agreement I have no doubt they would be further

:39:16. > :39:18.statements to the south but we are leaving the European Union. Either

:39:19. > :39:21.through the deal we have agreed without a deal. And so what we now

:39:22. > :39:27.need to consider is whether the other place should be asked to

:39:28. > :39:30.consider this issue yet again given they have considered and decided

:39:31. > :39:35.against amendments twice seek to put on the face of the Bill a vote on

:39:36. > :39:39.the final agreement. Let me end by saying this. This Bill is to trigger

:39:40. > :39:43.the process of our leaving and fulfil the Supreme Court's

:39:44. > :39:49.requirements. As I have said many times before, tonight we must just

:39:50. > :39:52.might just make it to the legislative base camp in terms of

:39:53. > :39:57.parliamentary scrutiny and debate. There is a lot more to come. My

:39:58. > :40:00.Lords, the other place is clearly satisfied with this approach and

:40:01. > :40:04.that this Bill does not merit amendment. I would therefore add key

:40:05. > :40:14.noble lord is to be mindful of that and to pass this Bill amended. The

:40:15. > :40:21.noble lord the Minister attempts to bamboozle us and produce some of the

:40:22. > :40:29.same red herrings that I mentioned last week. The key point is that if

:40:30. > :40:34.he pledges that the Government will honour the commitment and assurance

:40:35. > :40:38.to a parliamentary vote, why not put it in the legislation? No good

:40:39. > :40:46.reason has been produced why that should not be enshrined in statute.

:40:47. > :40:57.And the more he doffed protest too much, more he generates concern,

:40:58. > :41:02.that that commitment to honour a parliamentary vote may be somewhat

:41:03. > :41:09.fragile. If there are indeed ample means for Parliament to assert its

:41:10. > :41:17.control, there is no problem then in writing them into the Bill. It is an

:41:18. > :41:21.issue that is completely fundamental, a fundamental

:41:22. > :41:27.principle. This is the most important decision for this country

:41:28. > :41:32.in over 70 years. Noble lord lordly Chronicle referred to this Bill is

:41:33. > :41:36.the shortest suicide in history. Didn't need to be that if the

:41:37. > :41:42.Government had given end the indication of issuing a sensible

:41:43. > :41:46.bracelet. But unfortunately it gives every indication of hurtling towards

:41:47. > :41:51.an extreme, brittle Brexit. -- sensible Brexit. That makes many

:41:52. > :42:02.people inside and outside this building very nervous. Lady Hayter

:42:03. > :42:07.said that from the opposition front bench she wanted to show that this

:42:08. > :42:10.Parliament is a player, wanted recognition of Parliament's role.

:42:11. > :42:17.The best way to do that is to follow the advice of my noble friend Lord

:42:18. > :42:22.Taverne that we should not abdicate parliamentary responsibility. There

:42:23. > :42:28.is a huge bonus on us to continue to maintain -- bonus to maintain that

:42:29. > :42:37.principle in the face of considerable lustre and not enough

:42:38. > :42:45.actual legislative commitment. -- bluster. I therefore believe that it

:42:46. > :42:52.is justified to press this amendment. I would ask the House to

:42:53. > :42:57.agree to amendment B1 and I wish to test the opinion of the House. The

:42:58. > :43:04.question is that amendment B1 be agreed to. As many of that opinion

:43:05. > :43:05.will say content. The contrary not content. Clear the