25/04/2017

:00:00. > :00:07.That's the end of the day in the houckz. We will now be going -- in

:00:08. > :00:11.the House of Commons, we will go live over to the House of Lords. You

:00:12. > :00:18.can watch recorded coverage after the Daily Politics later tonight.

:00:19. > :00:23.... However the Government respects the constitutional relationship with

:00:24. > :00:26.the overseas territories and the Crown dependencies. Legislating for

:00:27. > :00:30.the overseas territories is something that we have only done

:00:31. > :00:35.very rarely and on issues such as the abolition of the death penalty,

:00:36. > :00:39.which raised issues of compliance with human rights obligations, areas

:00:40. > :00:46.for which the UK retains direct responsibility. While tackling this

:00:47. > :00:49.kind of complex criminality and its consequences is extremely serious,

:00:50. > :00:54.there is a clear constitutional difference in the fact that

:00:55. > :00:58.financial services are an area that is devolved to territory governments

:00:59. > :01:01.in the case of the Crown dependencies, the UK has never

:01:02. > :01:06.legislated for them without their consent. It is also likely to lead

:01:07. > :01:10.to the territories with drawing their current level of cooperation,

:01:11. > :01:14.jeopardising the progress made and the spirit of working in partnership

:01:15. > :01:18.that we have fostered with the territories. I hope that noble

:01:19. > :01:25.Lord's will see this is a course of action that we shouldn't take. My

:01:26. > :01:32.Lord's, in terms of their existing commitments, it is quite right that

:01:33. > :01:35.we should ensure that there are effectively implemented and deliver

:01:36. > :01:40.real benefits for the UK law enforcement. This was a point that

:01:41. > :01:45.the noble Lord emphasised at committee stage and following

:01:46. > :01:49.careful consideration, I have brought forward amendments 8 and 32,

:01:50. > :01:54.to address the concerns raised by him and others. The amendments

:01:55. > :01:58.provide for a report to Parliament on the effectiveness of the

:01:59. > :02:01.bilateral arrangements in place between the UK and the governments

:02:02. > :02:07.of the overseas territories with financial centres and of the Crown

:02:08. > :02:11.dependencies on the exchange of beneficial ownership information. As

:02:12. > :02:15.I noted at committee stage, the Government is committed to follow up

:02:16. > :02:20.on these arrangements to ensure that they deliver in practice. There is

:02:21. > :02:23.already provision in the exchanges of notes agreements with the

:02:24. > :02:26.overseas territories and Crown dependencies for reviews of the

:02:27. > :02:32.arrangements six months after they come into force, that is on December

:02:33. > :02:36.31 of this year and for further reviews on an annual basis there

:02:37. > :02:41.after. The arrangements provide for continuous monitoring by both

:02:42. > :02:45.parties. However, placing review of the first 18 months of operation of

:02:46. > :02:50.the arrangements on a statutory basis will, I believe, provide

:02:51. > :02:54.further assurance that careful Parliamentary scrutiny will be given

:02:55. > :02:58.to the effectiveness of the arrangements and demonstrate they

:02:59. > :03:03.are being implemented properly, working effectively and meeting our

:03:04. > :03:08.law enforcement objectives. My Lord's, as I've said, the UK is the

:03:09. > :03:13.only G20 country to have established a public register and it is this

:03:14. > :03:17.Government's long-term ambition that publicly accessible registers of

:03:18. > :03:23.beneficial ownership will, in time, become a global standard. At that

:03:24. > :03:27.point, we'd expect the overseas territories and Crown dependencies

:03:28. > :03:30.to implement this standard. The Government amendment includes

:03:31. > :03:34.provision that in the review of the effectiveness of the arrangements,

:03:35. > :03:37.we can consider relevant international standards. This

:03:38. > :03:42.further demonstrates our intention to ensure that we and our overseas

:03:43. > :03:46.territories and Crown dependencies remain ahead of the curve of

:03:47. > :03:50.international standards and will continue to consider the bespoke

:03:51. > :03:56.arrangements set out in the exchange of notes in relation to these

:03:57. > :04:01.standards as they evolve. Given that so many jurisdictions fail even to

:04:02. > :04:04.reach the standards set by the financial action taskforce, for

:04:05. > :04:10.beneficial ownership transparency, it is right to focus our efforts on

:04:11. > :04:13.persuading others to up their game, while ensuring that the overseas

:04:14. > :04:18.territories and the Crown dependencies deliver on what they

:04:19. > :04:26.have promised. We will continue to engage with partners through the key

:04:27. > :04:30.international groups like the OECD to increase levels of transparency

:04:31. > :04:35.worldwide. I pay credit to all noble Lord's who have campaigned on this

:04:36. > :04:39.issue. The fight against global corruption is a priority for the

:04:40. > :04:48.Government. We've listened carefully to all those that have made

:04:49. > :04:56.representations, not least the noble lady Baroness Stern. And the noble

:04:57. > :05:00.Lord. I hope that the House will recognise the strong rational for

:05:01. > :05:04.the Government's proposed approach and that noble Lord's will accept

:05:05. > :05:07.the concessionary amendments that we propose in the light of our debate.

:05:08. > :05:10.I look forward to responding to noble Lord's at the conclusion of

:05:11. > :05:13.the debate, when I will also seek to address the amendment in the name of

:05:14. > :05:28.my noble friends. Amendment proposed to insert a new

:05:29. > :05:35.clause entitled Corporation beneficial ownership information

:05:36. > :05:40.followed by the words printed. I rise to speak to amendment 14 in my

:05:41. > :05:46.name and also the names of Baroness Kramer, Lord Ross and Lord Kirk,

:05:47. > :05:51.this amendment has already been discussed in committee and is

:05:52. > :05:55.unchanged but since the debate in committee I have been fortunate to

:05:56. > :05:58.have lengthy discussions with representatives in the United

:05:59. > :06:02.Kingdom of the British Virgin Islands and Bermuda which have been

:06:03. > :06:05.very enlightening and I also want to thank the Chief minister of the isle

:06:06. > :06:11.of man and his colleagues for meeting me. I am also grateful to

:06:12. > :06:16.the House of Lords library for the excellent briefings and to Christian

:06:17. > :06:21.Aid and transparency International for the additional briefings they

:06:22. > :06:26.provided and the work they do in this area. The background to this

:06:27. > :06:31.amendment is the growing public understanding of how the lack of

:06:32. > :06:36.transparency in offshore financial centres helps the corrupt to find a

:06:37. > :06:42.haven for their ill gotten wealth and the tax evaders to sleep easily

:06:43. > :06:46.in their beds. Those in poor countries feel the effects of the

:06:47. > :06:50.most because they do not have the resources to pursue the money that's

:06:51. > :06:56.been taken from them. The understanding of this need for

:06:57. > :07:02.transparency was enhanced by the publication of the Panama papers in

:07:03. > :07:09.April 2000 and 16. Following this, on the 8th of November 2016 the

:07:10. > :07:14.Chancellor of the Exchequer made her written statement on the work of the

:07:15. > :07:21.cross agency Panama papers task force. This is a group of law

:07:22. > :07:25.enforcers set up to pursue the information that related to the

:07:26. > :07:29.United Kingdom about the illegality revealed in the Panama papers. He

:07:30. > :07:35.said in his statement that since the publication of the Panama papers the

:07:36. > :07:42.task force upon the following, open civil and criminal investigations

:07:43. > :07:47.into 22 investigations were suspected tax evasion, identified a

:07:48. > :07:50.number of leads relevant to a major insider trading operation,

:07:51. > :07:58.identified nine potential additional enablers of economic crime or who

:07:59. > :08:02.had links to known criminals. Placed 43 high net worth individuals under

:08:03. > :08:17.a special review was there are links to Panama were further investigated.

:08:18. > :08:22.Established links to eight active Serious Fraud Office investigations,

:08:23. > :08:27.identified 26 offshore companies whose beneficial ownership of UK

:08:28. > :08:32.property was previously concealed and whose financial activity had

:08:33. > :08:37.been identified to the National crime agency as potentially

:08:38. > :08:46.suspicious. And in addition to pursuing these individuals and other

:08:47. > :08:52.leads on insider trading and sanctions and number of individuals

:08:53. > :08:59.had come forwards to settle forwards to set other affairs before action

:09:00. > :09:03.was taken against them. All the law enforcement activity I have just

:09:04. > :09:09.listed is the result in just six months of bringing can transparency

:09:10. > :09:17.to the files of just one legal firm in just one country. It gives an

:09:18. > :09:22.indication of the huge extent of the illicit activity and eliminates the

:09:23. > :09:27.rationale behind the measures in this very welcome bill. I would in

:09:28. > :09:32.passing with great respect asked those noble Lords who oppose public

:09:33. > :09:38.registers if they feel that bringing that number of people to justice is

:09:39. > :09:43.not worth doing are whether they have a proposal other than

:09:44. > :09:47.transparency for achieving that end. And though to delay government

:09:48. > :09:51.amendment eight which the Minister has just spoken so eloquently is a

:09:52. > :10:00.step forward in trying to curb the criminal activity at tax evasion and

:10:01. > :10:04.laundering of corruptly gained a well illustrated by the work of the

:10:05. > :10:13.Panama papers task force. It is very welcome them and makes it clear the

:10:14. > :10:22.overseas territories to keep good and accurate information. Let us

:10:23. > :10:26.remember that half of the companies exposed by the Panama papers were

:10:27. > :10:32.incorporated in the British Virgin Islands. Amendment number 14 goes

:10:33. > :10:37.further than the government amendment. In relation to the

:10:38. > :10:43.overseas territories it aims to bring transparency to their

:10:44. > :10:48.financial operations by allowing public access to registers are

:10:49. > :10:52.beneficial ownership and I note that Montserrat has already agreed to

:10:53. > :11:01.establish such a public register. This amendment would put a timetable

:11:02. > :11:04.anyplace for the British Overseas Territories to have public

:11:05. > :11:07.registers. It would require the government to give all the

:11:08. > :11:11.reasonable assistance possible to the overseas territories to help

:11:12. > :11:18.with this. If they had not been made public by the end of 2019 the

:11:19. > :11:24.amendment requires public registers should be brought in by a council.

:11:25. > :11:29.At committee stage the noble lady the Minister made it clear she could

:11:30. > :11:33.not accept the amendment but in doing so she did not use the

:11:34. > :11:38.argument that has been raised so frequently in discussions of this

:11:39. > :11:42.matter the argument that requiring the overseas territories to have

:11:43. > :11:48.public registers whilst other offshore centres maintain their

:11:49. > :11:53.secrecy puts them at a competitive disadvantage so that in the

:11:54. > :12:01.evocative words used in committee by the noble Lord Lord Hodgson the

:12:02. > :12:06.malfeasance will drift away to still mark year regimes. I welcome very

:12:07. > :12:12.much the noble lady 's rejection of that line of argument. She said the

:12:13. > :12:16.overseas territories and I quote may face competitive disadvantage in the

:12:17. > :12:20.short term but in the long term the transparent and open way in which

:12:21. > :12:24.the territories tend to work and we with them will be to their

:12:25. > :12:30.advantage. At the committee stage the noble ladies main reason for

:12:31. > :12:34.rejecting the amendment was that there would be a constitutional

:12:35. > :12:42.problem in accepting it and she repeated that today. I have been

:12:43. > :12:48.sent many documents on this subject since committee stage which I have

:12:49. > :13:00.studied carefully and they make it clear that ultimately the UK

:13:01. > :13:07.Parliament could legislate. I am sure there is wide agreement.

:13:08. > :13:13.Finally could I remind the noble lady the Minister of what she said

:13:14. > :13:19.at committee, for the purposes of international law the overseas

:13:20. > :13:22.territories are British. And that Britishness is significant. In my

:13:23. > :13:27.various discussions it has become clear to me that the attraction of

:13:28. > :13:32.the financial services in the overseas territories is primarily

:13:33. > :13:38.related to the British identity, the language, the access to a common-law

:13:39. > :13:43.legal system, final recourse to the Privy Council and the appeal as it

:13:44. > :13:49.is seen of the union jack. It is worth repeating what the noble Lord

:13:50. > :13:55.said at committee, he said it is fair to ask those jurisdictions that

:13:56. > :13:59.while their economy and defence depend on the stability and

:14:00. > :14:05.integrity of the United Kingdom they should also be expected to follow

:14:06. > :14:11.the same rules of business and investment that we follow here. We

:14:12. > :14:17.in the United Kingdom have a public register, it may not be perfect I am

:14:18. > :14:24.sure the noble Lord would agree with me on that. But it is our policy, we

:14:25. > :14:29.have one because we believe it is right and because it helps to

:14:30. > :14:36.prevent serious crime I hope that by tabling this amendment we have made

:14:37. > :14:41.it clear that we in the United Kingdom understand the huge impact

:14:42. > :14:48.that secret offshore financial services can have on the poor

:14:49. > :14:53.countries of the world, on good governance, democracy and security.

:14:54. > :14:58.We understand the overseas territories are the United Kingdom

:14:59. > :15:01.responsibility and we hope very much that transparency of their financial

:15:02. > :15:09.operations will come sooner rather than later. Finally can I thank the

:15:10. > :15:12.noble lady the Minister for the way she has carried this hugely

:15:13. > :15:24.important bill through the house and for her support and helpfulness at

:15:25. > :15:30.all times. Can I just intervene for a short time because as one of the

:15:31. > :15:34.cigarette trees on amendment 14 and indeed its predecessor which we

:15:35. > :15:40.looked out at committee stage I want to first of all thank and

:15:41. > :15:47.congratulate the noble ladies bull lady for her amazing vigour and

:15:48. > :15:51.courage and indeed our intuition in pursuing this matter which is so

:15:52. > :15:55.important. I remember that when I spoke in committee I made it very

:15:56. > :16:00.clear from the beginning that first of all this is important still, the

:16:01. > :16:08.government does indeed deserve enormous praise for the work it has

:16:09. > :16:11.done both here in the UK and also internationally to tackle

:16:12. > :16:16.corruption, tax evasion and avoidance. That is something I would

:16:17. > :16:19.like to credit also to the previous government because one of the

:16:20. > :16:26.reasons I have been interested in this matter is because I have

:16:27. > :16:30.followed the Right Honourable David Cameron's lead when in fact he put

:16:31. > :16:36.this issue very much at the front of the agenda in the 2013 G8 summit.

:16:37. > :16:41.Subsequently of course it has been referred to already in an earlier

:16:42. > :16:48.discussion that the anti-corruption summit which took place in May last

:16:49. > :16:55.year. He did not refer of course and others did not fair just to global

:16:56. > :16:59.standards. Indeed one of my noble friend the Minister 's responses at

:17:00. > :17:06.committee stage was to talk about awaiting global standards before any

:17:07. > :17:15.pressure was placed on overseas territories to comply with the

:17:16. > :17:19.public register. The former Prime Minister referred to the gold

:17:20. > :17:25.standard which the United Kingdom its self was very much in the

:17:26. > :17:30.vanguard of. And this was accepted and understood and it left this

:17:31. > :17:33.country as it is now in an enormously advantageous position in

:17:34. > :17:40.dealing with other countries as we go forward into the future. Can I

:17:41. > :17:44.just also say that I for my sins was one of those involved in the

:17:45. > :17:50.drafting of the fourth anti-money-laundering directive. I

:17:51. > :17:55.think whenever I meet my friends they always induce me as an expert

:17:56. > :17:58.on money-laundering. I do not like that description but undoubtedly we

:17:59. > :18:04.are looking in this legislation which is an enormously important

:18:05. > :18:07.piece of legislation, at the way in which we respond to the requirements

:18:08. > :18:14.under that fourth money-laundering directive as well. I still maintain

:18:15. > :18:19.that the amendment which I have co-signed is the best way forward

:18:20. > :18:25.but what I would also like to do now is to pay tribute to the noble lady

:18:26. > :18:30.the Minister for the way in which she has listened to the concerns of

:18:31. > :18:33.those who held our views. She has listened carefully during the

:18:34. > :18:41.committee stage and not just listened, then I think our ministers

:18:42. > :18:44.listen and that's about it. She has in fact acted. And I therefore want

:18:45. > :18:52.to just revert quickly to the government amendment she has brought

:18:53. > :18:58.before us. I think the government amendment eight is an enormous

:18:59. > :19:02.stride forward. It is actually also I think giving us the ability which

:19:03. > :19:08.is so important to review the situation actively in two years'

:19:09. > :19:13.time where we can have reports to see how things are getting on with

:19:14. > :19:17.overseas territories and the introduction of public registers.

:19:18. > :19:22.She has also given us good news this evening about developments even

:19:23. > :19:26.since the committee stage and I think we should welcome that and we

:19:27. > :19:32.should thank the government for its interest in proceeding in that

:19:33. > :19:40.manner. I am still of the belief that we need to have a level playing

:19:41. > :19:43.field and we need to have agreement with our overseas territories which

:19:44. > :19:49.is at least compatible with and equivalent to the requirements

:19:50. > :19:54.replace in the domestic setting. It makes no sense not to have that. I

:19:55. > :19:58.realise the government's position on this and that they wish to proceed

:19:59. > :20:04.by consent. Of course we all agree that consent is always better than

:20:05. > :20:11.enforcement. I wish the government great success with this and if

:20:12. > :20:16.necessary and as we proceed I hope we will be getting regular updates

:20:17. > :20:22.and then in June course when the reports come inside back we will

:20:23. > :20:26.have the opportunity if necessary to return to this matter. But at the

:20:27. > :20:32.end of the day my Lord's this is a very, very important bill in so many

:20:33. > :20:35.other regards as well. So from my perspective I certainly would wish

:20:36. > :20:37.us to proceed to confirm this bill and to allow it to proceed from

:20:38. > :20:57.here. I have to declare an interest. I

:20:58. > :21:02.have served professionally and voluntarily in the development

:21:03. > :21:10.sphere in various non-governmental organisations including being

:21:11. > :21:17.director. To all of us involved in that work, the importance of this

:21:18. > :21:21.bill and I very much endorse that it is an important bill and the

:21:22. > :21:26.importance of the amendment that's just been moved cannot be over

:21:27. > :21:36.emphasised. Indeed I noticed the other day that the Prime Minister in

:21:37. > :21:45.saying within the Conservative election campaign, they are going to

:21:46. > :21:49.stand by their commitment of overseas aid emphasised that what

:21:50. > :21:56.was important was to make sure that the aid was being spent in the most

:21:57. > :22:03.effective way and not wasted. My Lord's, one of the things that is

:22:04. > :22:11.terribly important to recognise, in what is being proposed in this

:22:12. > :22:21.amendment, is that the people of too many developing countries have been

:22:22. > :22:25.robbed by their leaders and that existing arrangements enable their

:22:26. > :22:29.leaders to get away with it. If we're going to talk about the

:22:30. > :22:38.effective use of aid, it seems to me, that where we have the authority

:22:39. > :22:45.to take highly effective steps we should do it. Yes, of course, we

:22:46. > :22:50.must put on record that Britain has made great steps to provide world

:22:51. > :23:01.leadership in this sphere and it is leading the world already. That is

:23:02. > :23:06.why the remaining gaps are very ugly. I don't like to put it in

:23:07. > :23:12.these crude terms, but it always seems to me that either people have

:23:13. > :23:19.some reason for not implementing it immediately, what is proposed, or

:23:20. > :23:24.they don't. If they don't, let's do it. If they are going to find ways

:23:25. > :23:30.of delaying, having still to work out anningments and so on, this --

:23:31. > :23:33.arrangements and so on, this must raise suspicion that's arrangements

:23:34. > :23:37.are going to be made in other respects as well. From that stand

:23:38. > :23:43.point, I would simply like to say that with all my experience in this

:23:44. > :23:48.sphere, this is a crucially important matter. I congratulate the

:23:49. > :23:53.noble lady in having stood by her guns and those who have gone along

:23:54. > :24:00.with her in proposing the amendment and I do hope it will be taken

:24:01. > :24:06.seriously, because I really believe that they could be a very important

:24:07. > :24:12.consensus in this House if we are prepared to put ourselves on record.

:24:13. > :24:17.My Lord's I declare - Following the speech of my noble friend, I too

:24:18. > :24:21.shall wish to refer to Mr Cameron and the G8 summit. First of all, can

:24:22. > :24:25.I say that I think amendment eight is unnecessary, but it's harmless,

:24:26. > :24:30.so I shall support it. But amendment 14, in my opinion, is wrong and

:24:31. > :24:35.misguided for a number of reasons. First, we have no right neither

:24:36. > :24:41.legal or moral to seek to impose our rules on law abiding, self-governing

:24:42. > :24:47.British Overseas Territories. I hear some of those NGOs outside this

:24:48. > :24:52.House talking about our overseas territories then I'm appalled at

:24:53. > :24:55.their old style colonial arrogance. One notorious campaigner against

:24:56. > :24:59.so-called tax havens has suggested in his book that they should be

:25:00. > :25:03.closed down and the natives made to depend on overseas aid once again.

:25:04. > :25:07.He calls himself moral and he's one of the architects behind these

:25:08. > :25:11.proposals. I believe we have no moral right because the United

:25:12. > :25:17.Kingdom, my Lord's, creates more dodgy shell companies than some of

:25:18. > :25:20.the tightly regulated overseas territories and Crown dependencies.

:25:21. > :25:23.We need to come up to their standard, not the other way round.

:25:24. > :25:27.Second, we should not impose the public register rules because the

:25:28. > :25:33.rules themselves, as I shall explain, are rubbish. Not one single

:25:34. > :25:39.other country in the OECD is implementing this and have made

:25:40. > :25:43.clear they never, ever will. This public register was invented by my

:25:44. > :25:47.right honourable friend Mr Cameron in 2013 and no other country will

:25:48. > :25:52.touch it with a barge pole. The only reason he was so keen then to foist

:25:53. > :25:55.this system on the overseas territories was so that he could

:25:56. > :26:00.point to others, being in the same boat as himself, and did not look

:26:01. > :26:04.isolated. My Lord's, I was involved in the background at that time. I

:26:05. > :26:09.had a meeting with prominent NGOs prior to the G8 in 2013. I asked

:26:10. > :26:18.them, why are they not campaigning against the real tax havens of this

:26:19. > :26:21.world, Luxembourg, Mauritius etc. And why target the overseas

:26:22. > :26:26.territories? They responded that they had no chance of influencing

:26:27. > :26:32.policy in those tax havens, but Mr Cameron was so desperate for a win

:26:33. > :26:34.at the G8 that he and the overseas territories were an easy target. I

:26:35. > :26:39.should make it clear for the record, at that point, I was the director of

:26:40. > :26:44.the caiman islands office in London, I have no connection whatsoever

:26:45. > :26:47.financial or otherwise with the Cayman islands government now. I

:26:48. > :26:53.deeply admire the way the territory is run and the exceptional level of

:26:54. > :26:55.integrity they bring to financial services, greater than the United

:26:56. > :27:02.Kingdom. I shall attempt to justify that. Why do I say that our UK

:27:03. > :27:10.policy is farcical? Because it says that the way you get dodgy pensions

:27:11. > :27:15.setting up dodgy shell companies is through public registers so nosey

:27:16. > :27:19.parker NGOs can trawl through them. No you must stop them setting up

:27:20. > :27:24.dodgy companies in the first place. Jersey and Cayman are the top

:27:25. > :27:27.countries in the world with by far the tighter regulations and checks

:27:28. > :27:34.on people setting up dodgy shell companies. A few years ago, an

:27:35. > :27:41.Australian professionor and his -- professor and his team did a huge

:27:42. > :27:45.xarmt. They created e-mail addresses around the world from Islamabad,

:27:46. > :27:49.Nigeria and Moscow to London and New York and elsewhere. Many of the

:27:50. > :27:54.locations were highly reputable and others were places where you should

:27:55. > :27:59.hang onto your wallet if you got an e-mail from them they have ?10

:28:00. > :28:02.million to invest with you. The researchers sent messages to

:28:03. > :28:07.hundreds of service providers around the world. The messages varied from,

:28:08. > :28:11.we wish to establish an export base in your country, to messages from

:28:12. > :28:16.Pakistan addressing, saying we have a few million dollars and we want to

:28:17. > :28:21.set up companies in complete secrecy and want some fake bank accounts

:28:22. > :28:25.etc. What is astonishing, my Lord's, according to the Professor's

:28:26. > :28:29.research, whilst the majority of CSPs did not respond to the latter

:28:30. > :28:34.highly suspicious messages or told them to get lost, a very large

:28:35. > :28:40.number responded and were willing to help. The team invented a ratings

:28:41. > :28:44.system for the responses. Who came out top as the most difficult

:28:45. > :28:48.places, impossible places to set up fake shell companies, without

:28:49. > :28:56.supplying beneficial ownership information, yes, little old Cayman

:28:57. > :29:01.and jersey. I have the chart here. Who was at the bottom of the heap,

:29:02. > :29:08.where you could almost walk in with a suitcase full of terrorist cash

:29:09. > :29:13.and set up a company, no questions asks, not Panama, but individual

:29:14. > :29:17.states such as Delaware, Montana and Wyoming at the bottom of the chart.

:29:18. > :29:22.Two million new companies are created in the United States every

:29:23. > :29:26.single year. If you want to set up a dodgy shell company you go to the

:29:27. > :29:31.United States or rather you don't go, you go to the e-mail and do it

:29:32. > :29:35.in under half an hour for under $300. These states, individual

:29:36. > :29:40.states have said gladly they don't care what the president signs up to

:29:41. > :29:44.at federal level. They're in charge of company registrations in their

:29:45. > :29:48.states and they will never, in a million years, go for public

:29:49. > :29:52.register or sell tral registers and they will not go for any more

:29:53. > :29:57.scrutiny before they set up companies. Where does the United

:29:58. > :30:02.Kingdom come into this? Unfortunately, guess who was 13th,

:30:03. > :30:07.at the bottom of the heap? Under Vietnam, under Panama, and under the

:30:08. > :30:11.Ukraine, yes, my Lord's, the United Kingdom was 13th from the bottom on

:30:12. > :30:15.creating dodgy shell companies. Because we do it with insufficient

:30:16. > :30:24.verification of the beneficial owners. Clobbering Cayman and

:30:25. > :30:29.Bermuda with rules, which only they would follow, is misguided and

:30:30. > :30:33.foolish. We don't - I agree with my noble friend, we do not make the

:30:34. > :30:38.world a better or more transparent place by hitting the good guys,

:30:39. > :30:43.encouraging the bad and letting all the Mugabes of this world go to the

:30:44. > :30:48.real tax havens to set up accounts. Neither does the OECD asked for the

:30:49. > :30:51.public registers. They merely wants all legitimate authorities to get

:30:52. > :30:54.speedy access to the relevant information so that the police,

:30:55. > :30:59.Security Services and financial regulators can check the legality of

:31:00. > :31:04.owners and their transactions. That's the point of access to

:31:05. > :31:08.beneficial information. I know that the Caiman islands has been

:31:09. > :31:11.providing that information without any objection whatsoever for the

:31:12. > :31:16.last ten years. They now have implemented a system to give that

:31:17. > :31:20.information to legitimate authorities within 24 hours, seven

:31:21. > :31:26.days a week. Now my Lord's, that is a far better system than publishing

:31:27. > :31:29.registers. It is perfectly legitimate for individuals, many

:31:30. > :31:33.individuals, for people to create companies and seek to keep the

:31:34. > :31:39.information ownership private. There is no right for the public or for

:31:40. > :31:44.anti-capitalist NGOs to know who owns private companies. But there is

:31:45. > :31:49.a need for legitimate law enforcement authorities to get

:31:50. > :31:55.speedy access to that information. The overseas territories are at the

:31:56. > :32:00.forefront of providing it. What is more, I know that information which

:32:01. > :32:04.will be provided by the islands for example, will be verified by the

:32:05. > :32:08.authorities as opposed to what will be supplied by Companies House,

:32:09. > :32:12.which does not verify the accuracy of anything. It is left to

:32:13. > :32:16.individuals to say to Companies House, I promise I'm telling the

:32:17. > :32:21.truth. The overseas territories don't accept that. All I ask of my

:32:22. > :32:25.noble friend is this: Will my noble friend, the minister, give me an

:32:26. > :32:30.assurance that in due course, the UK Government will now make an attempt

:32:31. > :32:34.to get a beneficial ownership information in Companies House as up

:32:35. > :32:41.to scratch and as good as the best of the OTs. Our overseas

:32:42. > :32:45.territorieses should be lauded not criticised. For these reasons I

:32:46. > :32:50.oppose amendment 14 and believe it should be rejected. My Lord's I

:32:51. > :32:53.declare an interest as former chairman of the Justice Committee in

:32:54. > :32:57.the House of Commons where we sought to clarify and underline the

:32:58. > :33:01.constitutional relationship. That probably explains while I generally

:33:02. > :33:08.support the amendment number eight, I have some doubts as to whether its

:33:09. > :33:12.desirable to have includes the overseas territories and Crown

:33:13. > :33:15.dependencies in the same amendment when they're constitutionally very

:33:16. > :33:19.different. Of course, the amendment as it is framed doesn't claim to

:33:20. > :33:23.place any requirements on the jurisdiction to which it refers. It

:33:24. > :33:28.simply requires UK ministers to report to the UK Parliament on how

:33:29. > :33:32.it's all going, which is obviously a good thing. Something we very much

:33:33. > :33:35.welcome. Parliament needs to know about the effectiveness of

:33:36. > :33:41.information sharing, of course, it needs to know not only in respect of

:33:42. > :33:46.the overseas territories or Crown dependencies but in respect of all

:33:47. > :33:50.the jurisdictions to which business already is carried out or to which

:33:51. > :33:53.it might transfer as a result of the steadily improving regulation in

:33:54. > :33:59.some of the territories that have been referred to in this debate. A

:34:00. > :34:03.lot of the public concern rises from two things, one mentioned by the

:34:04. > :34:07.noble Lord, the appalling record of corruption in many developing

:34:08. > :34:15.countries. But secondly, from the revelation of much of that in the

:34:16. > :34:20.Panama papers. When the noble lady, who deserves credit and tribute for

:34:21. > :34:24.her campaigning on this issue, when she referred to the number of

:34:25. > :34:28.proceedings considered or starting, many of those arise - and would not

:34:29. > :34:33.arise really from inadequate public registers. They arise from the

:34:34. > :34:40.useful publication of a great deal of nfrgs from one law firm. As it

:34:41. > :34:45.happens the biggest law firm in Panama, both of whose named partners

:34:46. > :34:51.are currently in detention in relation to matters in Brazil. That

:34:52. > :34:55.notorious partnership created many, many thousands of shell companies,

:34:56. > :34:59.did not know and did not really seek to know the beneficial ownership of

:35:00. > :35:06.the clients for whom it was doing this.

:35:07. > :35:14.It took place in Panama and many other jurisdictions, not just

:35:15. > :35:17.British Overseas Territories but for example at least one territory

:35:18. > :35:21.associated with the Netherlands as well. This was a massive operation

:35:22. > :35:28.stretching to Singapore and many other places. In Panama and has been

:35:29. > :35:35.significant improvement in both the criminal law and requirements of due

:35:36. > :35:44.diligence, which will offer have two comply with. I think that situation

:35:45. > :35:48.will change quite strikingly in that particular country and jurisdiction

:35:49. > :35:52.but much of this business may have transferred to Nevada, Delaware or

:35:53. > :35:57.Singapore and this will need to report to Parliament on how

:35:58. > :36:02.effective is the access of law enforcement and tax agencies to

:36:03. > :36:06.jurisdictions? To serve its purpose jurisdictions? To serve its purpose

:36:07. > :36:15.of course the information shared has to be reliable, up-to-date and that

:36:16. > :36:19.is the priority. The UK itself has work to do at home as several noble

:36:20. > :36:25.Lords pointed out. If it is to match what is already done for an example,

:36:26. > :36:29.Jersey. There are real benefits to be had from publicly accountable

:36:30. > :36:35.registers such as Harper poured the amendment particularly in tackling

:36:36. > :36:43.the corruption by national leaders which would not otherwise come to

:36:44. > :36:48.life but my worry is unless this does become a much more widespread

:36:49. > :36:52.practice there will be many, many jurisdictions in which they can

:36:53. > :36:56.engage in these activities. I think the phrase gold standard is an

:36:57. > :36:59.unfortunate one because that is something we went off in

:37:00. > :37:16.circumstances we realised we had to do so solid to find a different

:37:17. > :37:26.analogy let's recognise the priority is to get law enforcement and those

:37:27. > :37:37.of other countries accessed information which is reliable

:37:38. > :37:41.up-to-date unverified. I was chief executive of a class one major

:37:42. > :37:46.reinsurer in Bermuda for a number of years and have wide experience of

:37:47. > :37:51.financial services in that country. And generally. I would pay tribute

:37:52. > :37:56.to the noble Baroness the Minister and also Baroness Dearne in their

:37:57. > :37:59.respective ways I am afraid I can page a beauty Baroness Dearne but I

:38:00. > :38:07.disagree with her fundamentally and while I feel the catalogue of

:38:08. > :38:11.problems she mentioned is terrible, worrying, vile and awful I'm afraid

:38:12. > :38:15.to say amendment 14 is not a good way of addressing the issue and she

:38:16. > :38:22.challenged me to try to provide a better way and I will in the course

:38:23. > :38:25.of my remarks. I should say that people don't quite often understand

:38:26. > :38:35.how big a jet restriction Bermuda is. It overtook London as a centre

:38:36. > :38:39.of reassurance in 2004, London remains number two in the world. No

:38:40. > :38:43.major insurer in this country would be able to trade without the

:38:44. > :38:48.reinsurance it purchases from Bermuda. The amount of money and

:38:49. > :38:55.capital and sophistication in Bermuda is enormous. The BMA, the

:38:56. > :39:00.chief regulator is an extremely professional and very tough

:39:01. > :39:04.regulator indeed. I should say that Bermuda was not responsible for even

:39:05. > :39:09.one of the revelations in the Panama papers and is a very clean

:39:10. > :39:14.jurisdiction and therefore I think it's particularly an fair they are

:39:15. > :39:19.named in this thing. I have four particular points, two of which are

:39:20. > :39:23.very quick to say, firstly the general point of interference by

:39:24. > :39:30.Westminster in the affairs of these self-governing regimes and I agree

:39:31. > :39:34.with the Minister. The second is a general point about just shifting

:39:35. > :39:37.the problem to another jurisdiction. I absolutely agree that shifting a

:39:38. > :39:44.bad thing is a good thing in many ways but shifting a good company is

:39:45. > :39:47.a bad thing because you are simply damaging the jurisdiction and there

:39:48. > :39:52.are many good companies involved and would explain later on in a second

:39:53. > :39:55.wireless amendment would have the effect of shifting good companies

:39:56. > :40:00.and I think it would be very wrong for to impose damage on our loyal

:40:01. > :40:06.overseas territories and possessions. The three things I am

:40:07. > :40:14.moving onto my third point now, the three things which control and look

:40:15. > :40:18.at naughtiness in financial services are the tax authorities, the police

:40:19. > :40:23.authorities and the regulators. As a chief executive of a big company of

:40:24. > :40:26.course one is worried by tax authorities and policeman but the

:40:27. > :40:31.person who can walk into your office and stop you trading immediately is

:40:32. > :40:36.the regulator, he has the most power and is the toughest and I regret

:40:37. > :40:41.that in the many we have the power of the regulators has not been

:40:42. > :40:46.discussed. Or indeed how close they are to what is going on. It's not

:40:47. > :40:49.possible for one of these shell companies to be set up without a

:40:50. > :40:54.regulator being involved because that company will require a bank

:40:55. > :40:57.account. The bank is a heavily regulated thing. If it does not

:40:58. > :41:03.require up bank account it will require a font manager and that is

:41:04. > :41:06.heavily regulated. As a person who would be running the support

:41:07. > :41:09.business in these type of environment there is no way any high

:41:10. > :41:17.integrity environment like Bermuda that you would allow someone one bad

:41:18. > :41:26.cloud to come in and kill off the whole business. You would be very

:41:27. > :41:30.careful to make sure what happens. You are of course afraid of tax and

:41:31. > :41:33.police authorities and are more than willing to give any information

:41:34. > :41:40.which will protect your business because no one client is worth it,

:41:41. > :41:49.your business is your business, your staff are your staff and that is how

:41:50. > :41:55.everyone feels. A sub point here is that in our society we rely on the

:41:56. > :42:01.forces of law enforcement to deal with naughtiness on our behalf. We

:42:02. > :42:05.don't have vigilante posse is running around trying to do things

:42:06. > :42:11.and I do worry that it would be the case that if everything was public

:42:12. > :42:15.available that people would see themselves suddenly as being

:42:16. > :42:19.promoted into some sort of enforcement environment. I think

:42:20. > :42:23.that is wrong, we should leave these things to the professionals, the tax

:42:24. > :42:27.authorities and police authorities and the regulators and trust them.

:42:28. > :42:33.If they do not do a good enough job we should bash them. We should not

:42:34. > :42:37.allow vigilante posse is. I moved to my fourth and in fact I think most

:42:38. > :42:46.worrying point for me, which I have mentioned before, the other thing

:42:47. > :42:52.that who I work for for so long did was look after the possessions of

:42:53. > :42:56.well off people all over the world. And it's also the leading insurer of

:42:57. > :43:02.kidnap and ransom throughout the world. Indeed during my time we

:43:03. > :43:10.logged 40,000 man days of kidnap problem around the world. It had a

:43:11. > :43:15.market share more than 50%. I think we understand what the issue is. We

:43:16. > :43:19.are lucky in this country to live in an environment where we are safe and

:43:20. > :43:23.secure. I will lock on the night and think nothing of it, I can get in a

:43:24. > :43:28.smart car and think nothing of it. That is not the case in countries

:43:29. > :43:34.like Mexico. In Mexico you cannot keep your company in a local bank,

:43:35. > :43:38.in quite a lot of countries you need to go to these offshore environments

:43:39. > :43:43.and you are a good client because you're someone who has earned your

:43:44. > :43:48.money. A perfect client was someone who owned a beer factory in Mexico

:43:49. > :43:51.or something because you knew they were straight and honest and made

:43:52. > :43:59.their money, you could see how they made it and they were very

:44:00. > :44:05.frightened and the thing we advised them is to keep quiet about it.

:44:06. > :44:09.Discretion because that's the chief weapon that. Nastiness going on.

:44:10. > :44:13.When the nastiness happens it does not really happen to the guy running

:44:14. > :44:20.the beer factory it happens to the daughter and it happens in a nasty

:44:21. > :44:24.way and so I do worry that the effect of this sort of thinking

:44:25. > :44:30.without a proper impact assessment being sorted out and thought about

:44:31. > :44:34.carefully could be we would be sentencing some people to physical

:44:35. > :44:40.harm, to the invasion of homes of people who have made their money

:44:41. > :44:44.honestly and I say in vanishing, of course I do not want this

:44:45. > :44:48.naughtiness to go on but I do feel strongly that amendment 14 is not

:44:49. > :44:53.the way to go about it. That we should rely on police authorities,

:44:54. > :44:56.tax authorities and regulators to do it for us and we should look

:44:57. > :45:01.carefully at their performance in all of these countries and carry on

:45:02. > :45:03.doing as the government has been doing so successfully to get

:45:04. > :45:09.incremental improvement and this house should make sure we carry on

:45:10. > :45:14.pushing the government towards incremental improvement but can I

:45:15. > :45:20.please with the house not to support amendment 14. My Lords may I first

:45:21. > :45:25.declare an interest as I am the chairman of the Jersey financial

:45:26. > :45:29.services commission and therefore the person responsible for the

:45:30. > :45:38.beneficial ownership register in Jersey. The question addressed in

:45:39. > :45:41.amendment 14 of the public availability, public accessibility

:45:42. > :45:48.to register is beneficial ownerships is not a question for me and I will

:45:49. > :45:54.not address the value or not of making a register public. That's a

:45:55. > :45:57.political issue. The regulator in Jersey is independent and I

:45:58. > :46:02.therefore have no role in those political decisions. What I am

:46:03. > :46:10.concerned about is whether a register of beneficial ownership is

:46:11. > :46:16.and therefore a useful. There has been reference by a number of

:46:17. > :46:20.speakers to the public availability of the register of beneficial

:46:21. > :46:26.ownership here in the UK. Essentially the companies house

:46:27. > :46:30.register. As I pointed out in my speech in committee, that register

:46:31. > :46:37.is not a useful register, since it is not verified and because it is

:46:38. > :46:43.not verified the information in it can be seriously misleading. And

:46:44. > :46:46.indeed because it is not verified the people in developing countries

:46:47. > :46:53.or in the civil society as a whole are on their own with respect to

:46:54. > :46:59.attempting to identify wrongdoing through the structure of the

:47:00. > :47:04.register. The register doesn't do the job. Regrettably the UK is not a

:47:05. > :47:12.leader in providing verified accurate information about

:47:13. > :47:17.beneficial ownership. Now the two issues I want to address with

:47:18. > :47:22.respect to the amendments are first of all with respect to amendment 14

:47:23. > :47:27.what I have just said will make clear why I regard it as seriously

:47:28. > :47:38.defective in not including the word verified. The characterisation of

:47:39. > :47:42.the information in this section, subsection four says a publicly

:47:43. > :47:45.ownership of information a covenant ownership of information a covenant

:47:46. > :47:49.that in the companies act and the word verified does not appear.

:47:50. > :47:55.Therefore this information can be inaccurate, it can be misleading,

:47:56. > :48:04.nobody is required here to check that information. Now the second

:48:05. > :48:08.point I wish to go back to, the noble lady the Minister's amendment

:48:09. > :48:14.number eight, which has not been discussed very much up until now

:48:15. > :48:21.where it says that the, not only will relevant territories provide

:48:22. > :48:25.information to the UK and we all have a report on how that

:48:26. > :48:30.information is provided, but it also says the UK will provide beneficial

:48:31. > :48:34.ownership information to the relevant territories and I presume

:48:35. > :48:40.that includes my registry in Jersey. So I would like to know what

:48:41. > :48:45.information is going to be provided. If it's the companies house

:48:46. > :48:48.information do not bother. If it's some verified information then I

:48:49. > :48:55.will be very pleased to receive it. So I would be grateful if when the

:48:56. > :49:00.minister sums up she would tell us exactly what information is going to

:49:01. > :49:06.be provided by the UK and whether this is going to be verified and if

:49:07. > :49:11.so by what authority will it be verified? Because only if we have

:49:12. > :49:21.accurate information are the goals that those who have moved amendment

:49:22. > :49:30.number 40, the objectives of achieving the revelation of

:49:31. > :49:36.wrongdoing only is that then achieved if information is not

:49:37. > :49:46.verified that goal is not achieved so I do think amendment 14 I would

:49:47. > :49:49.summing out will tell me what sort summing out will tell me what sort

:49:50. > :49:58.of information and by whom it will be verified provided to the UK to my

:49:59. > :50:06.register in Jersey. Wishes the United Kingdom to be ahead of the

:50:07. > :50:10.curve and in relation to amendment number eight I think she's

:50:11. > :50:15.absolutely right if she is saying that the corporation on beneficial

:50:16. > :50:20.ownership information in order to remove tax evasion or deal with tax

:50:21. > :50:25.evasion, stamping out corruption, money laundering and terrorist

:50:26. > :50:30.finance is that if that is the objective then it's to be welcomed

:50:31. > :50:35.and it is welcomed as far as I can see by those in the overseas

:50:36. > :50:40.territories. Of course what will come from this particular amendment

:50:41. > :50:46.which I will come back to in a minute is the overseas territories

:50:47. > :50:51.have as I understand it committed themselves to provide real-time

:50:52. > :50:52.24-hour information in response to requests from the Lord authorities

:50:53. > :51:04.in the United Kingdom 's. this area of challenge. I too have

:51:05. > :51:09.concern over some of the detail of this particular clause. It is

:51:10. > :51:14.unfortunate that a clause of this importance is appearing on the order

:51:15. > :51:18.paper so late in the process. Of course, I recognise my noble friend

:51:19. > :51:22.on the frontbenches is in some difficulty in that this is a really

:51:23. > :51:27.major bill and here we are at the 11th having to lock at an amendment

:51:28. > :51:34.which is absolutely vital. So, one has to have some allowance for that.

:51:35. > :51:38.But I share the view of the Lord in exactly what information is going to

:51:39. > :51:43.come from the UK and who on earth is verifying that information. I think

:51:44. > :51:47.the overseas territories have every right to be told exactly what this

:51:48. > :51:56.information is and how it has been verified. I add to that, there seems

:51:57. > :52:00.to be a great rush to have this work that's done over the next period of

:52:01. > :52:06.time and it's all going to be based on one year's experience. This is

:52:07. > :52:09.such a major step forward, that I wonder whether 12 months, with some

:52:10. > :52:13.of them we heard this evening from my noble friend, the Turks and

:52:14. > :52:19.Caicos are hoping to get started soon. Well, I think one year is

:52:20. > :52:24.asking an awful lot and not many statisticians would work on the

:52:25. > :52:30.basis of one year's information. Nevertheless, we are where we are. I

:52:31. > :52:37.have one other concern, that is on section number two. It says and I

:52:38. > :52:41.quote, "The report must include an assessment of the effectiveness of

:52:42. > :52:46.those arrangements having wrard to such international standards as

:52:47. > :52:50.appear to be relevant, as appear to the relevant minister to be

:52:51. > :52:57.relevant." We don't know who the minister is or may be in the next

:52:58. > :53:01.Government. Nor do we know what the international standards are that are

:53:02. > :53:05.to be used. I suggest to my noble friend and I don't blame them for

:53:06. > :53:10.this, but when the report comes forward, we shall want to have great

:53:11. > :53:15.clarity on what international standards are being used and whether

:53:16. > :53:21.they're being consistently used in the analysis of the implementation

:53:22. > :53:27.that flows from clause eight. I return to the basic point that there

:53:28. > :53:31.must be great joy, I think, both in the overseas territories and the law

:53:32. > :53:34.enforcement agencies in the United Kingdom at what they are going to

:53:35. > :53:38.get now really is a first-class get now really is a first-class

:53:39. > :53:45.service which ought to have a major impact on the areas that I've

:53:46. > :53:50.described. My Lord's, I've had the privilege of working overseas in

:53:51. > :53:56.Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka. I spent part of my National Service in

:53:57. > :54:01.Canada. Certainly when I was in commerce with the overseas group,

:54:02. > :54:04.one of the bug bears of international trade, I'm now talking

:54:05. > :54:11.several decades ago, but it hasn't changed I'm afraid, is that it isn't

:54:12. > :54:15.a level playing field. Here we are, approaching Brexit, we are hoping to

:54:16. > :54:21.trade internationally. The tragedy of the situation is that somehow or

:54:22. > :54:26.other we've never managed, the United Kingdom nor other countries

:54:27. > :54:30.have managed to sper suede, have we managed to persuade the United

:54:31. > :54:34.States, Hong Kong and Singapore even to have a central, non-public

:54:35. > :54:40.register? We haven't got even that far. Even on the basis of what we're

:54:41. > :54:44.doing now, we are having rivals and make no mistake about it, most of

:54:45. > :54:51.our overseas territories are in the Caribbean. Their main competitor is

:54:52. > :54:57.the United States. They do not even have a central beneficial ownership

:54:58. > :55:03.register. Not only will they lose business, if we go too far, but the

:55:04. > :55:10.other parties, particularly the States, Singapore and Hong Kong, if

:55:11. > :55:15.they take business from our overseas territories, net result will be that

:55:16. > :55:19.whereas we're getting information out of our overseas territories, if

:55:20. > :55:23.the business goes elsewhere, then the cooperation that the UK gets

:55:24. > :55:28.from its overseas territories, which is good and is going to be even

:55:29. > :55:31.better, will be totally undermind and we won't get any information,

:55:32. > :55:38.frankly, from the United States, Hong Kong or Singapore. Finally,

:55:39. > :55:41.when you come to amendment 14, it keeps re-appearing, I certainly

:55:42. > :55:47.don't think Her Majesty's Government is committed to producing anything

:55:48. > :55:52.on a public register at the end of the review on beneficial ownership.

:55:53. > :55:58.The review on beneficial ownership should be solely on that. There may

:55:59. > :56:03.need to be further amendments or extensions of that situation. I just

:56:04. > :56:07.do remind your Lordships that the law enforcement agencies do not

:56:08. > :56:13.support public registers, the tax authorities do not support public

:56:14. > :56:18.registers, UK intelligent law enforcement is a key part of our

:56:19. > :56:22.foreign policy. We look for cooperation from our friendly

:56:23. > :56:26.countries across the world. That will be jeopardised still further if

:56:27. > :56:29.there are these public registers. I say to my noble friend on the

:56:30. > :56:34.frontbench, I support very much what she's done with this bill. I support

:56:35. > :56:38.the way she's pushed forward this progress with the overseas

:56:39. > :56:43.territories, but let's be quite clear, beneficial ownership is one

:56:44. > :56:48.thing and very important. Public registers, in my view, are totally

:56:49. > :56:52.out of call. I rise briefly to support the Government amendment

:56:53. > :56:58.number eight. In so doing, to apologise to the House for the fact

:56:59. > :57:01.that I haven't been here for earlier proceedings, because amongst other

:57:02. > :57:05.things, I have been visiting one of the overseas territories, Gibraltar,

:57:06. > :57:10.where I'm Chancellor of the new university there. And of course, as

:57:11. > :57:11.a former governor of Gibraltar, I'm probably the only person in the

:57:12. > :57:16.chamber who has been a governor of chamber who has been a governor of

:57:17. > :57:23.an overseas territory and I thought I ought to say something on this

:57:24. > :57:28.very important debate. I think that my noble friend, the Baroness, and

:57:29. > :57:30.all those who have added their name to that amendment, they've done a

:57:31. > :57:37.service to the House, in ensuring that we debate this vital issue of

:57:38. > :57:43.standards, of regulations in overseas territories. After all, at

:57:44. > :57:47.the end of the day, it is our Government, it is ultimately

:57:48. > :57:52.accountable to Parliament for the performance in our overseas

:57:53. > :57:57.territories. Therefore, we must, the Government must satisfy themselves

:57:58. > :58:03.that the standards both in this country as well as in overseas

:58:04. > :58:11.territories are to the standards required by OECD and elsewhere. I

:58:12. > :58:16.congratulate my noble friend on the leadership that she's shown in

:58:17. > :58:22.ensuring that we debate this issue. But there is a very delicate balance

:58:23. > :58:28.to be struck. I think the House understands this in listening to

:58:29. > :58:35.this debate. Of course, we are now in a non-colonial era. I remember

:58:36. > :58:39.when I became governor of Gibraltar, Robin cook, very soon after became

:58:40. > :58:43.Foreign Secretary, two or three months later. One of the first

:58:44. > :58:48.things he did, I think very sensibly, was to drop the term

:58:49. > :58:54.territories and to now have the territories and to now have the

:58:55. > :59:01.present name title that we use which is British overseas territories. We

:59:02. > :59:05.have to approach these issues in a very non-paternalistic, non-colonial

:59:06. > :59:10.fashion. That, to my mind, is absolutely essential. The danger is,

:59:11. > :59:20.with devolved powers that we have, quite rightly in my view, in these

:59:21. > :59:25.overseas territories, if we try to impose in a paternalistic fashion

:59:26. > :59:30.our views and policies upon them, we will be doing a great disservice.

:59:31. > :59:34.That is something that we want to avoid above all in having to impose

:59:35. > :59:43.direct rule, which could be the implication. At the same time, we've

:59:44. > :59:47.got to ensure that there is a level playing field, which includes us as

:59:48. > :59:52.well, and in making progress on this, that we don't do it at the

:59:53. > :00:03.expense of the overseas territories. My Lord's, I think the Government

:00:04. > :00:06.responding to the amendment, in this responding to the amendment, in this

:00:07. > :00:11.amendment number eight. Because it provides a framework in which we can

:00:12. > :00:14.move forward in negotiation, in dialogue with the overseas

:00:15. > :00:20.territories in the next two or three years to try and move the whole

:00:21. > :00:24.issue forward. Many of the overseas territories we've already heard

:00:25. > :00:27.today, have made good progress. I congratulate the Government on this

:00:28. > :00:35.and support their amendment strongly.

:00:36. > :00:40.My Lord's, I'd like to support very much the noble Lord, what he has

:00:41. > :00:45.just said, and associate myself respectfully with what he has said.

:00:46. > :00:50.I strongly support amendment eight, if I may put it this way. I think

:00:51. > :00:54.the Government and particularly the noble lady, the minister, has been

:00:55. > :00:59.extremely shrewd in taking the sting of the points that have been raised

:01:00. > :01:04.by the noble lady Stern, who has very wisely brought these issues to

:01:05. > :01:09.Parliament, to this House, but also, the Government has picked it up and

:01:10. > :01:14.produced what seems to me to be the right approach to dealing with the

:01:15. > :01:18.overseas territories. It provides a useful nudge to those overseas

:01:19. > :01:23.territories. The Government is looking at what they're doing

:01:24. > :01:26.without imposing what is unacceptable upon these independent

:01:27. > :01:32.countries with their own constitutions and their own

:01:33. > :01:40.parliaments. I do not agree with amendment 14. I was at the meeting

:01:41. > :01:43.this morning, where a number of the overseas territories explained to

:01:44. > :01:48.those of us would were there what they were doing. As you've already

:01:49. > :01:53.heard about Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, we did hear this morning,

:01:54. > :02:05.but we heard from the British Virgin Islands, who are doing very good

:02:06. > :02:14.work. We heard from Anguila. We heard about the Turks and Caicos

:02:15. > :02:18.islands. The areas which are contained within the amendment 14

:02:19. > :02:22.are already on the way, if not indeed ahead of us, some of them.

:02:23. > :02:27.It's not necessary that they should be referred to specifically in this

:02:28. > :02:30.particular amendment. I don't want to hold up everybody. I support

:02:31. > :02:36.amendment eight. I don't think amendment 14 now is really

:02:37. > :02:47.necessary. I would like to speak briefly to an

:02:48. > :02:51.amendment which is in my name, Lord Hodgson. It's amendment 24. It

:02:52. > :02:57.concerns the setting up of a public register of beneficial ownership of

:02:58. > :03:00.UK property by companies and other legalents registered -- legal

:03:01. > :03:03.entities registered outside the United Kingdom. Those are the words

:03:04. > :03:07.or more or less the words that are the subject of a call for evidence

:03:08. > :03:12.issued by the department of business, energy and industrial

:03:13. > :03:17.strategy in April of this year. I don't know, but I assume that the

:03:18. > :03:22.Home Office did a great deal to bring forward the publication of

:03:23. > :03:27.this report, in the light of the debates that took place at committee

:03:28. > :03:32.stage about the concern that was generally expressed about corruption

:03:33. > :03:37.and the acquisition of property in Central London by overseas

:03:38. > :03:41.companies, who hid behind anonymity. The establishment of a public

:03:42. > :03:46.register was indeed a commitment made by the Government. Why do we

:03:47. > :03:50.need a register of this sort? I can do no better than quote briefly from

:03:51. > :03:54.the call for evidence. The Government is concerned about the

:03:55. > :03:57.potential for illegal activity to take place through overseas

:03:58. > :04:01.companies investing in the property sector. Some properties are owned

:04:02. > :04:05.through offshore companies in order to obscure their true owners. This

:04:06. > :04:08.can make it difficult for regulators, legitimate businesses

:04:09. > :04:11.and the general public to know who the true owners are and can make it

:04:12. > :04:19.very difficult for law enforcement agencies to carry out effective

:04:20. > :04:25.investigations. The document goes on to say greater transparency of

:04:26. > :04:31.property ownership will make the job easier. It's made quite clear that

:04:32. > :04:34.the Government intends to introduce a register of beneficial owners of

:04:35. > :04:38.overseas companies. But since it's a call for evidence, it doesn't seek

:04:39. > :04:43.to prescribe precisely what the nature this afternoon register

:04:44. > :04:47.should be and it calls for advice and information to assist it

:04:48. > :04:52.formulating the register. It might well be influenced by what the noble

:04:53. > :04:58.Lord said about verification in order to make any such register

:04:59. > :05:03.particularly useful. The amendment in the name of, in my name, simply

:05:04. > :05:09.asks the Government to do this and make it a part of the bill. If we

:05:10. > :05:13.don't, there's a real feeling that there will not be legislative time

:05:14. > :05:19.even in the Parliament that we have, potentially starting in June. I ask

:05:20. > :05:24.my noble friend, the minister, to reassure us that this register will

:05:25. > :05:33.be set up and be done in short order.

:05:34. > :05:39.I apologise for rising at this late hour, the Minister knows I would

:05:40. > :05:44.like to thank the Minister for her attendance at the meeting this

:05:45. > :05:48.morning, very productive. I admitted then I had not seen the government

:05:49. > :05:56.amendment number eight and now that I have read it I think in fairness

:05:57. > :06:00.to the baroness, I know people have said it is very welcome, it's

:06:01. > :06:03.actually quite disappointing for the aid organisations who have been

:06:04. > :06:09.campaigning so I thought perhaps that should be on record. I think

:06:10. > :06:14.it's really a restatement of government policy as it is already

:06:15. > :06:19.and it's not a compromise in that sense. I would prefer to support my

:06:20. > :06:25.noble friend and the others moving amendment 14 because it's all my

:06:26. > :06:28.common sense if we look back on the discussion at committee stage they

:06:29. > :06:35.are asking for is for the government to complete its own programme of

:06:36. > :06:39.persuading the overseas to adopt public registers. This was a

:06:40. > :06:45.worldwide campaign and we admire the government has led this campaign. It

:06:46. > :06:50.is now intended to include the overseas territories although I

:06:51. > :06:54.fully recognise it's been a slow take-up and orders in Council may be

:06:55. > :07:04.required. I worked with Christian Aid and many other organisations who

:07:05. > :07:08.support this new clause in amendment 14 where they are to my mind rightly

:07:09. > :07:13.concerned that the need for transparency should apply to

:07:14. > :07:21.overseas territories and developing countries just as much as it applies

:07:22. > :07:25.to us. I hope the minister recognises this and will see her way

:07:26. > :07:29.to a further compromise in future. The aid agencies feel quite strongly

:07:30. > :07:34.by this and the majority of people living in these countries are who we

:07:35. > :07:40.are thinking about, not the ones sitting on the money. I would like

:07:41. > :07:43.to quote an action from Christian Aid, they said the exchanges of

:07:44. > :07:49.notes signed between the UK and overseas territories on sharing

:07:50. > :07:54.beneficial ownership information already provide for a joint review

:07:55. > :07:57.of the operation of the arrangements, six months after

:07:58. > :08:02.coming into force and thereafter on an annual basis. The report

:08:03. > :08:06.envisaged by amendment eight is already therefore committed to. All

:08:07. > :08:12.this amendment does is put an existing commitment into law and so

:08:13. > :08:15.the amendment is not mentioned transparency at all nor does it

:08:16. > :08:19.mention developing countries and therefore I see no reason why we

:08:20. > :08:28.cannot support amendment 14 and amendment eight. Adding my name to

:08:29. > :08:35.amendment 24 which is about the overseas poverty register. The

:08:36. > :08:40.baroness was kind enough to refer to my remarks at the committee stage

:08:41. > :08:45.about drifting away to murkier regimes, I took it from the way she

:08:46. > :08:49.quoted it that she did not approve of that. I was relieved that my

:08:50. > :08:56.noble friend equated it with approval which shows you you cannot

:08:57. > :09:00.please all the people all the time. But I do not want my noble friend or

:09:01. > :09:07.indeed the house to think that was a remark made just in isolation. I

:09:08. > :09:11.said the status quo was not sustainable and that there would be

:09:12. > :09:19.in my view at least three issues that should be tackled as part of

:09:20. > :09:23.the new regime. Firstly that there should be a register and that our

:09:24. > :09:29.law enforcement agencies should have full access to that register and it

:09:30. > :09:32.was done in a way that was prompt and helpful and consistent with the

:09:33. > :09:35.working relationship and thirdly that the UK Government was itself

:09:36. > :09:43.satisfied with the effectiveness of the regime in those overseas

:09:44. > :09:46.territories and Crown dependencies. It seemed to me that actually

:09:47. > :09:54.amendment eight, the government amendment, meets those tests which

:09:55. > :09:58.is why I am supporting it and I think rather than drifting away to

:09:59. > :10:04.Marky resumes I would say we must not let the best become the enemy of

:10:05. > :10:10.the good. So if I may return to amendment 24, it is important I

:10:11. > :10:19.think not my lords to see the issues raised as only being a problem for

:10:20. > :10:26.central London and maybe the suburbs as well. There is a knock-on effect

:10:27. > :10:32.from what is going on and from the continued overseas investment in

:10:33. > :10:38.London properties. That makes the urgency referred to in the remarks a

:10:39. > :10:43.moment ago all the more pressing. Because first my Lords there is a

:10:44. > :10:50.ripple effect on properties in the south-east of the night Kingdom as

:10:51. > :10:54.they settled population... Further amounts of money to buy properties

:10:55. > :11:01.elsewhere in the region. There is an interesting article in the Financial

:11:02. > :11:06.Times of Monday the 30th of April in which it pointed out house prices

:11:07. > :11:15.have increased by 102% since 2002 compared to 38% and that London no

:11:16. > :11:22.need to pay 12.9 times their earnings, up from 6.9 times in 2002,

:11:23. > :11:26.to achieve a London house. And that if you wish to buy a house in

:11:27. > :11:33.Kensington, Chelsea, the heartland of the area I think my noble friend

:11:34. > :11:38.has in his gun sights, now you have to have 31 times your median salary

:11:39. > :11:43.to be able to afford it. So there is a real sense that we need to get a

:11:44. > :11:50.grip and some transparency and clarity on what is going on and of

:11:51. > :11:55.course there is a second impact because as London has become more

:11:56. > :12:01.expensive foreign investors have begun to look at other cities. The

:12:02. > :12:08.times of Friday, April seven pointed out that number one Cambridge St in

:12:09. > :12:20.Manchester, a development of 282 flats end 29 stories has investment

:12:21. > :12:24.or purchases from Aber 's Irish, China, Japan, Zimbabwe, 18

:12:25. > :12:30.nationalities in all and only two of the 282 flats are owned by

:12:31. > :12:37.Britain's. The developer said the generously designed proportions

:12:38. > :12:41.apartments appealed to owner occupiers, investors and renters. In

:12:42. > :12:45.other words the scheme is appealing to several sectors of the market.

:12:46. > :12:50.Including those looking to make a step towards getting on the housing

:12:51. > :12:54.ladder and more established owner occupiers. I must say I think

:12:55. > :13:00.first-time buyers in Manchester might wonder whether 99.2% overseas

:13:01. > :13:10.investment and .8% local ownership is what, if that is a fair

:13:11. > :13:15.reflection. Here I offer to my noble friend Baroness Stone and some

:13:16. > :13:23.comfort. One investor based on the British Virgin Islands has purchased

:13:24. > :13:28.125 flats. It's a company which has paid 25.7 million for these

:13:29. > :13:34.properties. So my Lords, whilst this amendment is no silver bullet it

:13:35. > :13:47.does set out an important direction of travel and that is why I support

:13:48. > :13:51.it. There have been many speeches and I was unable to speak at an

:13:52. > :13:55.earlier stage so I will be brief. Amendment eight is good but

:13:56. > :13:59.amendment 14 is better and the reason it is better is simply this,

:14:00. > :14:04.it adds greater certainty to the idea that we and the British

:14:05. > :14:09.territories overseas are doing our level best and they are doing their

:14:10. > :14:15.level best to destroy this scourge of corruption which invests so many

:14:16. > :14:21.countries and does so much damage throughout the whole world. Maybe we

:14:22. > :14:25.are at the start of this process, I think this bill is the beginning of

:14:26. > :14:32.this process but we have to start somewhere and this is where we

:14:33. > :14:39.should start. My Lords I had the privilege of being an name added to

:14:40. > :14:44.the amendment moved by the baroness. I want to use this opportunity if I

:14:45. > :14:49.made to congratulate horror both not only on raising this issue but also

:14:50. > :14:53.pursuing it with so much energy and I think we can see from some of the

:14:54. > :14:58.results that the argument has moved, the profile of this issue has been

:14:59. > :15:02.significantly raised. I think government will struggle to ignore

:15:03. > :15:06.it going forward. But we have had a small concession from the

:15:07. > :15:15.government, I agree very much with the Earl of sand wedge that it would

:15:16. > :15:18.have been encouraging to have a stronger response because this is

:15:19. > :15:22.the encapsulation if you like the existing government policy, existing

:15:23. > :15:27.notes of exchange into statute. It's better to have it in statute and not

:15:28. > :15:33.have it in statute, that's a bit of movement but it's extremely small. I

:15:34. > :15:38.think what has disappointed me in a lot of the debate today has been the

:15:39. > :15:45.range of views that have been expressed as opposing transparency.

:15:46. > :15:49.I am very appreciative of those who have spoken out and recognise the

:15:50. > :15:54.importance of transparency. The Panama papers have been an

:15:55. > :16:00.extraordinary illustration of what transparency can do and does, that

:16:01. > :16:05.is to engage both the regulators, the enforcement agencies to pursue,

:16:06. > :16:12.it is not naughtiness, it runs far deeper than naughtiness. To pursue

:16:13. > :16:19.real misbehaviour that distorts economies including our own quite

:16:20. > :16:24.frankly. I think in amendment 24 in many ways illustrates the

:16:25. > :16:29.distortions which has happened in the property market in the UK with

:16:30. > :16:33.huge consequences for many of our young people, many of those on lower

:16:34. > :16:41.incomes. There is a very big knock on beyond just the initial misuse of

:16:42. > :16:46.bank accounts and investments. My Lords, I have said and I made a much

:16:47. > :16:53.longer speech at committee stage which I won't repeat here, but that

:16:54. > :16:57.we have to face the reality that much of their many of the problems

:16:58. > :17:05.we face across the globe, whether it's looking at things like the

:17:06. > :17:15.Civil War in Syria, hunger in Africa, the absence of democracy in

:17:16. > :17:21.countries like Russia, the impact of withdrawn democracy in places like

:17:22. > :17:28.Turkey, that all of that depends on the capacity of those who are

:17:29. > :17:33.politicians or government that abuse their people, governments or

:17:34. > :17:40.politicians who are corrupt, vast criminal networks which exploit in

:17:41. > :17:51.every way to then take advantage by moving illicitly obtained money into

:17:52. > :17:58.the legal financial sector. When we look anywhere around the world that

:17:59. > :18:04.functions as a haven or portal for that transition from the illicit

:18:05. > :18:08.world to the legal world that we are facing a situation where we have to

:18:09. > :18:14.try to close down that ability of those funds to move. The impact of

:18:15. > :18:22.that would be huge and so many ways across the globe and for us. I very

:18:23. > :18:27.much support and I am sad not everyone did, the work the previous

:18:28. > :18:32.Prime Minister David Cameron did in this area, the stance he took that

:18:33. > :18:36.said first we have to make the kinds of changes that give us a central

:18:37. > :18:39.registers and I am glad the government has moved and this

:18:40. > :18:45.government continues to move to make sure that extends right across all

:18:46. > :18:50.our overseas territories and Crown dependencies and many of them as has

:18:51. > :18:59.been stated, this will be a universal description of the UK, its

:19:00. > :19:05.overseas territories and Crown dependencies. But I am sad that the

:19:06. > :19:09.principle of public registers is now being so thoroughly challenged. We

:19:10. > :19:13.all know that if we wait for a global standard we will wait for

:19:14. > :19:18.generations and secrecy provides that kind of cover that is used

:19:19. > :19:24.extensively by all those we would wish to stop. They are the people

:19:25. > :19:28.who will be pleased today that amendment 14 is not going to be put

:19:29. > :19:33.to a vote and potentially carried. They will be delighted because that

:19:34. > :19:37.is the cover that enables them to continue to make the transfer

:19:38. > :19:44.between the illicit world and the legal world. So I say to the

:19:45. > :19:48.minister I think this is a path that I am sure the baroness who has been

:19:49. > :19:54.so vigorous on this issue is going to continue. I think there are

:19:55. > :20:03.others around the house who will continue that and I hope because we

:20:04. > :20:07.must achieve that as transparency and if we don't take a leadership

:20:08. > :20:11.there is no way we can turn around to be United States are any other

:20:12. > :20:18.location and incest they indeed carry out those same measures when

:20:19. > :20:21.we say we are not willing to do it ourselves and we are not willing to

:20:22. > :20:24.use our relationship with the overseas territories and Crown

:20:25. > :20:33.dependencies to achieve that goal. I wish the Minister was able to tell

:20:34. > :20:37.us more, that would give us a great deal of comfort, there does not seem

:20:38. > :20:41.to be modern which has much force energy behind us and I find that

:20:42. > :20:50.exceedingly sad but this is a day when frankly we recognise the needs

:20:51. > :20:57.and I very much will accept that supporting the government amendment

:20:58. > :20:58.eight and will with regret recognise we are very likely to have an

:20:59. > :21:09.opportunity to push on amendment 14. Could I start off by making a

:21:10. > :21:19.reference to the amendment that's down in the name of the noble Lord

:21:20. > :21:23.and the noble Lord Hodgson. We certainly support the objectives of

:21:24. > :21:35.that amendment. It's a matter that we have raised at committee stage as

:21:36. > :21:39.well as of the noble Lords. The amendment, unless I've misunderstood

:21:40. > :21:42.its intention, seeks to say that action should be taken within a

:21:43. > :21:47.certain period of time, which I think is described as within six

:21:48. > :21:54.months of the day on which this act is passed. When the matter was

:21:55. > :21:58.discussed at committee stage, of course, the noble lady the minister

:21:59. > :22:04.did say, refer to the fact that the Government had announced that the

:22:05. > :22:10.London anticorruption summit last year that the Government's intention

:22:11. > :22:13.was to create a register of overseas company beneficial ownership

:22:14. > :22:19.information, where the company owns UK property. On behalf of the

:22:20. > :22:22.Government, the noble lady the minister also said that the

:22:23. > :22:25.Government intended to publish a call for evidence, which would set

:22:26. > :22:30.out the policy proposals in full in the coming weeks and that the

:22:31. > :22:34.Government would also introduce legislation to implement the

:22:35. > :22:41.register as soon as Parliamentary time allowed. Now of course, as the

:22:42. > :22:45.noble Lord has said, the call for evidence on a register showing who

:22:46. > :22:49.owns and controls overseas legal entities that own UK property or

:22:50. > :22:54.participate in UK Government procurement has now been issued.

:22:55. > :22:59.It's come from the Department for Business, energy and industrial

:23:00. > :23:05.strategy. But I imagine that the key concern from what the noble Lord has

:23:06. > :23:08.said, of course, is how long it may take for anything to happen as far

:23:09. > :23:14.as setting up the register is concerned. I assume that the noble

:23:15. > :23:19.lady, the minister, is probably not going to be in a position to say

:23:20. > :23:22.very much about that. She could tell us what the intentions of this

:23:23. > :23:26.Government would have been. But this Government isn't going to be around

:23:27. > :23:32.for very much longer. It will be a new Government. And it will be an

:23:33. > :23:39.issue for that Government to decide what priority they're going to give

:23:40. > :23:43.to it. But certainly, the omens do not necessarily seem very good,

:23:44. > :23:47.since there seems to be a general view that much of the legislative

:23:48. > :23:53.time that any Government has after the next election is going to be

:23:54. > :23:58.taken up with the issue of the implications of our withdrawal from

:23:59. > :24:01.Europe. I hope the noble lady, the minister, will at least be able to

:24:02. > :24:05.say what the intentions of this Government would have been, when she

:24:06. > :24:09.comes to respond to the specific point that's actually raised in the

:24:10. > :24:14.amendment moved by the noble Lord about putting a time limit on when

:24:15. > :24:20.something's actually going to happen and not leaving it as something that

:24:21. > :24:26.may well drift into the future. Could I turn to the Government's

:24:27. > :24:31.amendment and to the amendment 14, to which my name is attached. I

:24:32. > :24:34.would like to thank the noble lady the minister for moving Government

:24:35. > :24:40.amendment number eight, which I think fairly clearly has been put

:24:41. > :24:44.down at least in partial response to the terms of amendment number 14,

:24:45. > :24:50.which has been moved by the noble lady Baroness Stern and to which my

:24:51. > :24:55.name is attached. I don't intend to reiterate the arguments and points

:24:56. > :25:03.made by the noble lady Baroness Stern with which I'd have to say I

:25:04. > :25:11.fully concur. What I do want to do is to concentrate my comments on the

:25:12. > :25:16.Government amendment number eight. The Government amendment, as the

:25:17. > :25:19.noble lady Baroness Stern has already said does not go as far as

:25:20. > :25:24.amendment 14, since it contains no reference to the Government having

:25:25. > :25:30.to bring forward by the end of 2019 or indeed any other time scale an

:25:31. > :25:35.order in council and then taking all reasonable steps to ensure its

:25:36. > :25:40.implementation requiring any overseas territories listed in the

:25:41. > :25:46.amendment, amendment 14, that have not by the end of 2019 introduce aid

:25:47. > :25:51.publicly accessible register and thus if they haven't done that,

:25:52. > :25:56.requiring them to do so. What the Government amendment provides for is

:25:57. > :26:00.a report to be prepared before the first of July 2019, with an

:26:01. > :26:02.assessment of the effectiveness of the arrangements in place between

:26:03. > :26:07.the UK Government and the Government of any of the Channel Islands, the

:26:08. > :26:11.aye of man or relevant overseas territories for the sharing of

:26:12. > :26:15.beneficial ownership information, having regard to such international

:26:16. > :26:19.standards as appear to the relevant minister to be relevant. I would

:26:20. > :26:26.like to ask the noble lady, the minister, for more information on

:26:27. > :26:29.the criteria against which the Government will assess the

:26:30. > :26:32.effectiveness of the current arrangements. I'm asking that in the

:26:33. > :26:37.context of what the view would have been of this Government on that

:26:38. > :26:41.issue. What we are presumably all seeking to do is reduce the

:26:42. > :26:46.incidents of money laundering and corruption in particular as well as

:26:47. > :26:50.avoidance of paying tax by either illegal means or through elaborate

:26:51. > :26:56.schemes which have not been cleared by the tax authorities. Will the

:26:57. > :27:03.level of such reduction achieved or not achieved in these areas be a key

:27:04. > :27:08.part of the assessment of the effectiveness of the arrangements in

:27:09. > :27:12.place? And will that be reported on in specific terms in the report to

:27:13. > :27:17.be placed before Parliament and to which reference is made in the

:27:18. > :27:21.Government amendment? And further, is it this Government's intention

:27:22. > :27:28.that there should be a debate in both Houses of Parliament on the

:27:29. > :27:33.report in Government time? And what does the reference to "having regard

:27:34. > :27:38.to such international standards as appear to be relevant minister to be

:27:39. > :27:42.relevant" actually mean? What does this Government consider the

:27:43. > :27:48.relevant international standards are at present? And how would the

:27:49. > :27:53.international standards at the end of 2018 be determined? Are

:27:54. > :27:56.international standards internationally binding agreements?

:27:57. > :28:01.Or is an international standard what is being achieved by the country

:28:02. > :28:05.with the best record of effectiveness and transparency in

:28:06. > :28:11.this area? Or the one with the worst record? Now I believe the noble

:28:12. > :28:15.lady, the minister, said that the regard to international standards

:28:16. > :28:19.would be to the highest standards, but I would be grateful if the noble

:28:20. > :28:25.lady, the minister, could confirm that when she comes to respond. One

:28:26. > :28:29.of the concerns that's been expressed during the course of our

:28:30. > :28:36.discussions on this issue has been the potential or actual use of

:28:37. > :28:39.overseas territories and Crown dependencies by corrupt individuals,

:28:40. > :28:43.organisations or people in positions of real power in other countries to

:28:44. > :28:47.cream off money for themselves, which was intended to be used for

:28:48. > :28:53.the benefit of a nation as a whole or a significant part of a nation.

:28:54. > :29:00.An advantage of a publicly accessible register of beneficial

:29:01. > :29:03.ownership means people in that country would have access and would

:29:04. > :29:08.identify where corruption and money laundering may be taking place and

:29:09. > :29:12.thus be better able to expose what's going on. The prospect of which in

:29:13. > :29:17.itself would also act as a potentially significant deterrent.

:29:18. > :29:22.The Government's amendment refers to an exchange of information between

:29:23. > :29:27.the Government of the UK and the government of each relevant

:29:28. > :29:30.territory. How will this Government's amendment address the

:29:31. > :29:35.issue of the use of overseas territories and Crown dependencies

:29:36. > :29:37.for corruption and money laundering purposes by individuals,

:29:38. > :29:43.organisations or people in positions of real power in countries outside

:29:44. > :29:47.the United Kingdom? Does the amendment mean that the UK

:29:48. > :29:52.Government would seek information on beneficial ownership from a relevant

:29:53. > :29:56.Crown dependencies or overseas territories in respect of

:29:57. > :30:01.individuals, organisations or people in positions of power in countries

:30:02. > :30:06.other than the United Kingdom? And were a credible request for such

:30:07. > :30:11.information -- where a credible request comes from individuals,

:30:12. > :30:13.organisations or governments within those other countries, is it the

:30:14. > :30:19.intention of this Government that the information on beneficial

:30:20. > :30:24.ownership obtained would be passed on unless -- wouldn't be passed on

:30:25. > :30:27.unless overriding reasons to do so would jeopardise life or security.

:30:28. > :30:31.There is a basic difference between ourselves an the Government. The

:30:32. > :30:36.Government believe that a process of persuasion will lead to publicly

:30:37. > :30:45.accessible registers of beneficial ownership in line with what is to be

:30:46. > :30:49.UK practice, albeit I note the noble Lord's tren chant comments about the

:30:50. > :30:56.lack of verification of the register in the UK. However, the Government

:30:57. > :30:59.do not want to put any time limit for when the voluntary approach has

:31:00. > :31:04.to have delivered follow which legislative action would be taken.

:31:05. > :31:10.We are not convinced that this approach will deliver the required

:31:11. > :31:13.outcome and particularly in the light of the Government's change of

:31:14. > :31:18.stance in the days of the previous Prime Minister so that the

:31:19. > :31:23.commitment now appears only to be to expect overseas territories and

:31:24. > :31:27.Crown dependencies to follow suit if publicly accessible registers of

:31:28. > :31:29.beneficial ownership become the international standard. It appears

:31:30. > :31:33.as though the United Kingdom will not be taking the lead as far as the

:31:34. > :31:39.overseas territories and Crown dependencies are concerned. This

:31:40. > :31:46.Government's only expects them to "follow suit qul qul. And perhaps

:31:47. > :31:54.the -- follow suit." . And perhaps the noble lady could say though

:31:55. > :32:02.there are no time limits in the amendment when it should be

:32:03. > :32:05.implemented, nevertheless, this Government would not resile from

:32:06. > :32:10.taking legislative action at some undefined point in the future if

:32:11. > :32:15.that was shown to be necessary. We are now in a situation where this

:32:16. > :32:21.Parliament is about to end, pending the general election in June. This

:32:22. > :32:24.bill as has been said, has received widespread support, concluding in

:32:25. > :32:28.the Commons as well as this House, where the areas of difference of

:32:29. > :32:35.view have been over what the bill does not include, rather than over

:32:36. > :32:38.what it does. A judgment has to be made in the situation. The

:32:39. > :32:42.Government have been persuaded to move further with their amendment,

:32:43. > :32:48.amendment eight, providing for a report to Parliament to be prepared

:32:49. > :32:55.by the middle of 2019. This will enable the issue to be kept alive

:32:56. > :32:59.and for the case for an objective of publicly accessible registers of

:33:00. > :33:04.beneficial ownership in bone overseas territories and Crown

:33:05. > :33:08.dependencies to continue to be pursued, pursued assuming the then

:33:09. > :33:11.Government of the day do not come to the conclusion themselves that firm

:33:12. > :33:16.action needs to be taken to deliver that objective in the light of the

:33:17. > :33:20.progress, or lack of it, being made by the voluntary approach and the

:33:21. > :33:24.effectiveness or lack of it of the arrangements in place for the

:33:25. > :33:31.sharing of beneficial ownership legislation. The amendment does

:33:32. > :33:36.require progress, does represent progress, albeit not as much as we

:33:37. > :33:40.would have liked. Nobody wants to see this bill or even significant

:33:41. > :33:44.parts of it actually bite the dust. We do not believe that an election

:33:45. > :33:48.having now been called, that Government MPs in the Commons are

:33:49. > :33:53.now going to do anything other than support their own Government's

:33:54. > :33:58.amendment number eight at the expense of amendment 14, assuming

:33:59. > :34:02.that amendment could still have been carried in this House in the light

:34:03. > :34:06.of the Government's amendment. We will support the Government's

:34:07. > :34:12.amendment for the reasons I have given. It does not go as far as we

:34:13. > :34:17.would wish. That position is reflected in amendment number 14.

:34:18. > :34:20.But it does represent progress, that's amendment eight represents

:34:21. > :34:31.progress and we thank the noble lady, the minister, for her work in

:34:32. > :34:39.that regard. My Lord's, may I thank all noble Lord's who have spoken so

:34:40. > :34:44.passionately on amendments 8 and 14. And particularly thank the noble

:34:45. > :34:50.lady, lady Stern for all the work she has done in promoting her

:34:51. > :34:54.amendment 14. May I also thank all noble Lord's who attended the

:34:55. > :35:00.meeting with the overseas territories this morning. I hope

:35:01. > :35:05.they found it was a useful meeting and that they can see that progress

:35:06. > :35:08.is in fact being made. But my Lord's, could I begin with amendment

:35:09. > :35:12.24.