:00:00. > :00:09.That is the end of the day in the House of Commons. We will now go
:00:10. > :00:12.over live to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded coverage of all
:00:13. > :00:21.of the day's business after the daily politics later tonight. They
:00:22. > :00:30.plan to proceed in due course if returned with the proposals for
:00:31. > :00:34.making tax digital to slightly worry me. I think everyone would agree
:00:35. > :00:38.that making tax digital for businesses is a good idea, but the
:00:39. > :00:46.Treasury committee in the Other Place under the leadership, and your
:00:47. > :00:55.lordship's economic affairs committee, have both made rather
:00:56. > :01:04.serious criticisms of some of the details of the proposal, and they
:01:05. > :01:09.are very big proposals. If the 780 pages had been in front of us today,
:01:10. > :01:14.we would have been debating a proposal that 2.5 million
:01:15. > :01:22.self-employed people, 1.5 million companies and 1 million landlords,
:01:23. > :01:28.even if the turnover was as low as ?10,000 a year, should be required
:01:29. > :01:35.to go online and make their tax returns quarterly, not annually. Tax
:01:36. > :01:38.returns every three months for all these companies, including very
:01:39. > :01:44.small companies. Both committees have recommended ways in which,
:01:45. > :01:50.while supporting the principle, it should be phased in and made
:01:51. > :01:56.optional, in the case of your lordship's committee, for small
:01:57. > :02:00.companies, in the case of the Treasury committee in the Other
:02:01. > :02:04.Place, the proposal was this threshold should be raised in line
:02:05. > :02:08.with the VAT threshold, which seems to be a reasonable proposal. All I
:02:09. > :02:18.want to say to the Minister is, I hope that, back in the Treasury and
:02:19. > :02:25.the revenue, people will not be idle in the next few weeks and months and
:02:26. > :02:30.will take careful account of the report from the two committees, both
:02:31. > :02:33.of which support the principle that the government is proposing to
:02:34. > :02:38.follow but both of which find very serious for the with some of the
:02:39. > :02:47.details of implementation and particularly facing. I thank the
:02:48. > :02:56.Minister for describing so fully the remaining sections of the Finance
:02:57. > :03:00.Bill, which are to be considered today. We all recognise the
:03:01. > :03:10.constraint in terms of the general election. He will anticipate that,
:03:11. > :03:16.as what is before us is a position in the procedure, that there is not
:03:17. > :03:23.too much controversy to add to this debate. We shall see, my lords, but
:03:24. > :03:30.let me say I do appreciate the fact that she has explained accurately
:03:31. > :03:40.what is in the measure, and of course I have no debate with those
:03:41. > :03:49.present. I very much appreciate the contribution by my noble friend. He,
:03:50. > :03:53.as ever, the ability both to identify the minutiae of a problem
:03:54. > :04:00.and also to draw some general principles from it. It is a facility
:04:01. > :04:06.I wish I had to the same degree because often I think it is
:04:07. > :04:12.important in economic debates that we understand the full implications
:04:13. > :04:17.of what is going on in terms of discrete pieces of legislation. I am
:04:18. > :04:20.also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Coe. He takes the
:04:21. > :04:29.responsibility of analysing the problems regarding the controversial
:04:30. > :04:33.tax proposals. They are controversial because, quite
:04:34. > :04:39.clearly, a lot of people consider the fact their interests have been
:04:40. > :04:47.taken sufficiently, if Atwell, into and both committees indicated the
:04:48. > :04:48.view is that, in fact, the government had made a pretty poor
:04:49. > :05:09.show of this. under a Labour government myeloid,
:05:10. > :05:17.it will be after deep consideration of the needs, in particular the
:05:18. > :05:24.category in which the noble Lord referred in terms of quite limited
:05:25. > :05:36.resources meeting very substantial demands indeed. Meanwhile, the
:05:37. > :05:43.government says in intended taxation is not necessarily coming in at the
:05:44. > :05:48.rate they would have wished. My Lords, governments have been lucky
:05:49. > :05:53.with budgets in recent years. We all recall the rather embarrassed
:05:54. > :06:04.business of the pasty tax, the tax credit cats were reversed by wiser
:06:05. > :06:11.counsels -- tax credit cuts. The government had to rethink and of
:06:12. > :06:18.course the Chancellor in his budget proposals introduced the national
:06:19. > :06:26.insurance contributions which turned out to be something of a fiasco. So,
:06:27. > :06:31.all key features of recent budget have had their fair more than a fair
:06:32. > :06:37.share of difficulty to the extent that one can wonder about how one
:06:38. > :06:44.can trust a Conservative Chancellor these days to get the fundamentals
:06:45. > :06:48.of the budget right. But, my Lords, it is the job of the opposition to
:06:49. > :06:54.point out where the government has got things wrong and we will
:06:55. > :07:01.the constraints of this prescription the constraints of this prescription
:07:02. > :07:09.Bill that we are now considering. A gutted Bill left with parts with
:07:10. > :07:15.that government and opposition agree should become law. The government of
:07:16. > :07:20.course tends to avoid tough choices, whilst at the same time pursuing tax
:07:21. > :07:27.cuts for the multinationals and the super-rich, to be paid for by the
:07:28. > :07:30.mass of our people who have rather more limited resources. So, my
:07:31. > :07:33.Lords, we take with more than a pinch of salt when the government
:07:34. > :07:39.puts its proposals before us and puts its proposals before us and
:07:40. > :07:43.suggests that they have some concept of fairness. So, the government
:07:44. > :07:50.fails to realise additional fiscal resources even when the NHS is in
:07:51. > :07:54.crisis. Of course, my Lords, there's not a person in this country who is
:07:55. > :08:06.not aware of the provisions of the national health service at the
:08:07. > :08:11.present time. The NHS has been forced to jettison its target of
:08:12. > :08:18.people requiring people replying hip or knee operations in 18 week
:08:19. > :08:25.period, it's just an indication of the camp to double difficulties of
:08:26. > :08:30.the health services in. The government has shown no political
:08:31. > :08:36.will to resolve the issue, and of course the health service has been
:08:37. > :08:43.acting as proxy for the problems of the social care service.
:08:44. > :08:50.Hard-pressed local authorities have not been able to sustain their
:08:51. > :08:55.resources in social care, and of course the fundamental
:08:56. > :09:02.responsibility for these crises rest with the government and there is
:09:03. > :09:10.nothing in this budget that indicates that they are prepared to
:09:11. > :09:18.face up to these issues. The government's fiscal policy shows a
:09:19. > :09:28.ruinous performance of finances as the target period for reducing or
:09:29. > :09:30.clearing the debt has now been -- gone from the five years originally
:09:31. > :09:36.and then on for a further five years and now it's a further seven years
:09:37. > :09:46.before the Chancellor can see his way to hitting the target which,
:09:47. > :09:54.between 2010 and 2015 dominated the then Chancellor's objectives and of
:09:55. > :10:03.course never really a recognition to the extent of them which failure was
:10:04. > :10:08.enjoyed in that period. This is not helped by cuts by in HMRC staff. I
:10:09. > :10:15.could not help but think when I first addresses issue -- address
:10:16. > :10:18.this issue how the government could be serious about indicating on how
:10:19. > :10:26.it would improve its taxation collecting capacities and in fact
:10:27. > :10:30.had got this is a major issue on the agenda but was pursuing, of course,
:10:31. > :10:37.it's clear ideological objective of reducing the size of the state. The
:10:38. > :10:41.HM RC began to suffer significant cuts at that time. How could it be
:10:42. > :10:47.that the government can be so committed to a philosophy that it
:10:48. > :10:51.cannot recognise that cutting the efficiency of a government
:10:52. > :10:57.department which doesn't just pay for itself, but brings in huge
:10:58. > :11:00.resources, far in excess of the cost of that department, is surely a
:11:01. > :11:06.nonsensical position to take? Of course the government didn't accept
:11:07. > :11:10.the argument in 2011, they're not accepting the comment in 2017. I
:11:11. > :11:15.haven't got the scientist out that they would not be accepting the
:11:16. > :11:20.argument beyond -- I haven't got the slightest doubt that they won't be
:11:21. > :11:25.accepting it beyond the election. This is not help my Lords, by the
:11:26. > :11:31.fact that over this period of time, the government of course has
:11:32. > :11:40.misdirected its taxation targets in any case. The work of cutting staff
:11:41. > :11:46.and resources in these terms is just emblematic of the fact that the
:11:47. > :11:52.government is prepared to reduce its services even when it is quite clear
:11:53. > :11:55.that the costs borne by the community are very significant
:11:56. > :11:59.indeed. That is true not just in our health service and social care, it
:12:00. > :12:06.is certainly true in education, my lords. How can it be, that the
:12:07. > :12:16.government is wasting resources on Private schools when in fact in
:12:17. > :12:22.fact, the state system as a whole is crying out with the obvious fact
:12:23. > :12:27.that every school is facing a reduction in the resources available
:12:28. > :12:36.to it? So, my lord, the government has got a lot to answer to and the
:12:37. > :12:42.government has, at times, paid lip service to the important feature of
:12:43. > :12:49.improvement in the economy, which would be in improvement in
:12:50. > :12:57.productivity. I welcomed of course the appointment of a minister who
:12:58. > :13:00.specialised in productivity and rejected his departure in a very
:13:01. > :13:05.short period of time. Too short, free him to make any real impact on
:13:06. > :13:08.the issue and from where I can see the government has largely given up
:13:09. > :13:20.on this matter. They talk about certain areas, but the simple fact
:13:21. > :13:26.is under their office since 2010 we have slipped against the G7 criteria
:13:27. > :13:34.of productivity crucially and of course we now have the largest gap
:13:35. > :13:39.with the G7 since 1991. How does a government expect us to be
:13:40. > :13:52.successful in our trade negotiations with other countries if our
:13:53. > :13:58.productivity stays so low? And we are not in a successful competitive
:13:59. > :14:05.position? If we were relatively steady, but of course Brexit has
:14:06. > :14:13.occasioned a complete convulsion in the country prog-macro prospects
:14:14. > :14:16.with regard to international trade. That means, my Lords, that the
:14:17. > :14:26.government is going into this election with a great? Over whether
:14:27. > :14:31.it's got the will and the capacity to tackle the fundamental issues of
:14:32. > :14:37.our economy. This budget is consistent with the performance of
:14:38. > :14:42.the government since the Conservative Party became the
:14:43. > :14:48.dominant force in politics in 2010. Conspicuous failure to hit economic
:14:49. > :14:54.and fiscal targets, backed up by taxation and social strategies
:14:55. > :15:05.which, on the whole, reward those who were well off and hit hardest
:15:06. > :15:16.the average working family and those of lower incomes. My Lords, so much
:15:17. > :15:21.fairness. When we are seeing an ever growing inequality in society which
:15:22. > :15:26.is prompting a response which the government will have two reckon with
:15:27. > :15:35.in the very near future. My Lords, it's the case, as my noble friend
:15:36. > :15:41.pointed out, that in fact, growth is the greatest failure of the
:15:42. > :15:47.government. In fact, we have hit very low levels of growth 's ever
:15:48. > :15:51.since they have been in power. There has been a slight improvement in the
:15:52. > :15:56.last 18 months, but of course all forecasts show that within 2-3
:15:57. > :16:07.years, even those low growth levels will begin to subside. My Lords, the
:16:08. > :16:12.government can't expect the country to bear all that the public needs in
:16:13. > :16:29.terms of resources and provision if in fact we cannot get growth in our
:16:30. > :16:39.economy. I would be grateful for embellishing this debate to my noble
:16:40. > :16:46.friend 's,. Because I am Trammell to a degree by that there is in
:16:47. > :16:49.agreement about the provisions in the budget I had their hope the very
:16:50. > :16:59.least the Minister will be obliged to respond to those points. My Lords
:17:00. > :17:02.added like to thank my colleagues for their valuable contribution to
:17:03. > :17:09.this select debate. In his wide-ranging speech, Lord Haskel
:17:10. > :17:13.mentioned the point of social measures and as usual made a number
:17:14. > :17:18.of interesting suggestions, including the point he often makes,
:17:19. > :17:23.rightly, about the importance of digital, and on this occasion not
:17:24. > :17:27.only referencing the workplace generally, but also the importance
:17:28. > :17:35.of getting this right in Whitehall. On care and the NHS, to which he
:17:36. > :17:41.referred and which is also tackled by Lord Davies of Oldham, at the
:17:42. > :17:44.spring budget, we did of course announce an additional ?2 billion
:17:45. > :17:51.through social care. This will help to ease pressures on the NHS by
:17:52. > :17:57.supporting more people to be sought in hospital and into care when they
:17:58. > :18:06.are ready. We are a the NHS needs the five-year forward view plan at
:18:07. > :18:12.an annual funding to rise above 8 billion in line with inflation. The
:18:13. > :18:17.government has delivered what they asked for an both counts and the NHS
:18:18. > :18:24.funding will increase by 10 billion above inflation by 2021 and 6
:18:25. > :18:32.billion of this will be delivered by the end of 2017. With regards to
:18:33. > :18:37.accident and emergency, we've agreed to provide ?100 million of new
:18:38. > :18:42.capital investment because this will help ensure patients get care as
:18:43. > :18:51.quickly as possible by improving space for assessing patient and
:18:52. > :18:57.providing on-site GCB facilities. -- GP facility. It is a good example of
:18:58. > :19:00.how you can improve things with management and efficiency, which I
:19:01. > :19:07.regard as extremely important. The global Lord, Lord Haskel, -- noble
:19:08. > :19:14.Lord, Lord Haskel talked about business investment and growing
:19:15. > :19:18.consumer debt. The forecast is business will invest will grow by
:19:19. > :19:28.15% in the period to 1521 and two a sheriff GDP. Debt interest as a
:19:29. > :19:37.proportion of income is at a record low. He also talked about
:19:38. > :19:44.productivity. A subject that we have often debated here and at the Autumn
:19:45. > :19:47.Statement we announced ?23 billion worth of extra investment through
:19:48. > :19:54.the National productivity investment fund. Tackling the UK's productivity
:19:55. > :20:02.challenge is a priority. The Chancellor mentioned it often, it
:20:03. > :20:04.has pride of place in the pride of -- Prime Minister's industrial
:20:05. > :20:11.strategy consultation and I do agree that it is important. The government
:20:12. > :20:15.is taking action to invest in innovation, infrastructure of
:20:16. > :20:20.digital, and to promote skills and indeed to improve management and to
:20:21. > :20:26.encouragement, as my noble friend the Minister for trade, during
:20:27. > :20:31.carriage firms to export, which always tends to be associated with
:20:32. > :20:40.Chong productivity growth. There is work to do as has been said as
:20:41. > :20:49.measured by output per head. This -- per
:20:50. > :20:58.Now, on Brexit, the noble Lord asked about Brexit resourcing, the
:20:59. > :21:02.Treasury is working with all departments to understand the work
:21:03. > :21:10.required to prepare for a successful exit from the EU. While aggregate
:21:11. > :21:15.spending plans for the period remain in place, I can assure the noble
:21:16. > :21:20.Lord the Treasury is continuing to engage with departments to make sure
:21:21. > :21:27.the right resources are allocated to the right places. I know from my own
:21:28. > :21:33.experience that there are very high quality civil servants and external
:21:34. > :21:43.support, both in the Treasury and the EU. The noble Lord asked about
:21:44. > :21:48.HMRC resourcing, and the government has always ensured that HMRC has the
:21:49. > :21:55.resources it needs. It makes sense to do so. Since 2010, we have
:21:56. > :22:03.invested over ?1.8 million in HMRC and steps again have been taken to
:22:04. > :22:13.improve its effectiveness and efficiency. I too was grateful to
:22:14. > :22:20.the noble Lord for joining us to share his view in making tax digital
:22:21. > :22:23.and for referring to the two recent Parliamentary reports. Particularly
:22:24. > :22:29.the one that was done in this House in the Finance Bill committee which
:22:30. > :22:34.I mentioned in my own opening remarks because I am grateful on the
:22:35. > :22:40.work done on Treasury areas in this House, it really helps us to improve
:22:41. > :22:45.policy formation. While there has been no change of policy, I would
:22:46. > :22:52.entirely accept that time is needed for proper debate and scrutiny of
:22:53. > :22:56.making tax digital provisions. The government remains committed to the
:22:57. > :23:06.digital future of the tax system and indeed it was good to hear support
:23:07. > :23:12.four that from the opposition benches. That was accepted in the
:23:13. > :23:14.consultation we did but more time is needed for Parliamentary scrutiny,
:23:15. > :23:24.and that will be made available at the earliest opportunity in the next
:23:25. > :23:28.Parliament. My lords, I am grateful to noble colleagues for their
:23:29. > :23:35.contributions. I think we will debate some of the wider issues in
:23:36. > :23:40.the country where we will demonstrate we have a programme for
:23:41. > :23:45.a stronger, more secure and more productive economy under Prime
:23:46. > :23:49.Minister who is also determined to lead a country which works for all
:23:50. > :23:56.people and all regions. I have outlined the benefits that the
:23:57. > :24:01.Finance Bill, in its form, will bring in advancing our aim for a
:24:02. > :24:05.fair and sustainable tax system. I would like to thank Treasury
:24:06. > :24:13.officials for the high-quality support on the bill and forgetting
:24:14. > :24:18.the bill quickly into a state in which it can be considered today. On
:24:19. > :24:24.that basis, I invite the House to give the bill a second reading. The
:24:25. > :24:36.question is that this bill now be read a second time. The contents
:24:37. > :24:45.have it. I beg to move that this bill be not committed. The question
:24:46. > :24:50.is that this Bill not be committed. The contents have it. I beg to move
:24:51. > :24:58.that this Bill now be read a third time. The question be that this Bill
:24:59. > :25:07.now be read a third time. The contents have it. I beg to move that
:25:08. > :25:15.this Bill do now passed. The question is that this Bill do now
:25:16. > :25:19.passed. The contents have it. I beg to move that the House do now
:25:20. > :26:57.adjourned. The controversial sport of fox
:26:58. > :27:01.hunting is the origin for a word that has become very much associated
:27:02. > :27:02.with the sport of