27/10/2017

0:00:00 > 0:00:00support for granted. Cross the crossbenchers at your peril.

0:02:00 > 0:02:07Second reading of the asset freezing compensation Bill.I beg to move

0:02:07 > 0:02:13that this Bill be read a second time. During the last session of

0:02:13 > 0:02:19Parliament I introduced a similar Bill into this House. While the Bill

0:02:19 > 0:02:23was passed by your Lordships and went to the other place, a

0:02:23 > 0:02:28combination of obstruction and lack of time brought about by the snap

0:02:28 > 0:02:31general election earlier this year resulted in it being lost. This Bill

0:02:31 > 0:02:38is put forward on behalf of an all Parliament party support group that

0:02:38 > 0:02:46is trying to help the men in victims of Gaddafi and sponsored terrorism.

0:02:46 > 0:02:51Many of you will be familiar with the circumstances that have led to

0:02:51 > 0:02:53these proceedings. It is worth reminding yourselves of the

0:02:53 > 0:03:00background to this case. The Libyan dictator was a long-term supporter

0:03:00 > 0:03:05of violent groups in many countries from the 1970s. But nowhere was his

0:03:05 > 0:03:09support for terrorism more apparent than with his unprecedented support

0:03:09 > 0:03:17for the provisional IRA. Gaddafi abided training on his territory,

0:03:17 > 0:03:23Finance as well as a massive amount of weaponry over many years.

0:03:23 > 0:03:27Literally shiploads were sent to the IRA in the 1980s. It is estimated

0:03:27 > 0:03:32that four or five major shipments were made with only one being

0:03:32 > 0:03:41intercepted. That being by the French navy in the Bay of Biscay on

0:03:41 > 0:03:45the 1st of November 19 87. Large quantities of the explosive Semtex

0:03:45 > 0:03:51were included in the shipments. And this explosive which is hard to

0:03:51 > 0:03:55detect and has a long shelf life with the IRA's weapon of choice for

0:03:55 > 0:04:06many years. It was following the bombing of Libya authorised by

0:04:06 > 0:04:14President Reagan in 1986 that he intensified his smuggling. Some of

0:04:14 > 0:04:19this explosive linked to the supply of Semtex, they argue that as a

0:04:19 > 0:04:22result of UK Government action in committing the raid, retaliation was

0:04:22 > 0:04:28made against them and their families. Gaddafi was looking for a

0:04:28 > 0:04:34spectacular response made on his behalf and arguably this came at

0:04:34 > 0:04:40Enniskillen nearly 30 years ago next month. These victims believe that

0:04:40 > 0:04:44Her Majesty's. And therefore has a responsibility to them, but unlike

0:04:44 > 0:04:49the case of US citizens, Her Majesty's Government did not pursue

0:04:49 > 0:04:54in the courts or bringing that country to the attention of the

0:04:54 > 0:04:59Security Council. Any objective observer would conclude that had the

0:04:59 > 0:05:04IRA not had access to Semtex in particular, this campaign would have

0:05:04 > 0:05:08fizzled out much earlier than it did and many lives would have been saved

0:05:08 > 0:05:13as a result. The finger of guilt for sustaining the IRA with this

0:05:13 > 0:05:16campaign of terror within and without this country points

0:05:16 > 0:05:23territory to the Gaddafi regime. This regime waged a proxy war in

0:05:23 > 0:05:31this country and any... Of Libya under law has responsibly key to

0:05:31 > 0:05:33take actions for its former head of state. There has been a perception

0:05:33 > 0:05:38that deduct the sponsored terrorism was primarily a Northern Ireland

0:05:38 > 0:05:41issue. But this is not the case. Victims are located all around our

0:05:41 > 0:05:47nation. The number of great British -based soldiers killed and injured

0:05:47 > 0:05:50is substantial as have been a significant number of high-profile

0:05:50 > 0:05:57attacks. For example, we had the Harrod's bombing, the Baltic

0:05:57 > 0:06:02exchange and the notorious Hyde Park bombing. The last example I'm

0:06:02 > 0:06:05mentioned is notorious because insult was added to injury by the

0:06:05 > 0:06:09disclosure that when a suspect was arrested and brought to court

0:06:09 > 0:06:15charged with four counts of murder relating to the incidents of 20th of

0:06:15 > 0:06:20July 1982 he was able to wave a piece of paper at the judge on the

0:06:20 > 0:06:2424th of debris 2014 and claim that he was promised that he could come

0:06:24 > 0:06:29to the UK as he was not wanted in connection with any ongoing police

0:06:29 > 0:06:33enquiry. This on the run letter from the suspect from John Downie remains

0:06:33 > 0:06:39a toxic example of the way a potential terrorist was treated and

0:06:39 > 0:06:45the way the former members of the security forces are treated.

0:06:45 > 0:06:48Successive governments have failed to resolve the issue of compensation

0:06:48 > 0:06:53for victims. There has been no sustained attempt by Her Majesty's

0:06:53 > 0:06:58Government to secure compensation from the Libyan either from frozen

0:06:58 > 0:07:02assets or by agreement with the Libyan gottman, when one was

0:07:02 > 0:07:05functioning of course. Hence the need to look again at the

0:07:05 > 0:07:08legislative options open to us to resolve this matter. Before

0:07:08 > 0:07:17referring to the clause in the Bill... And inconsistent approach by

0:07:17 > 0:07:21the Government. While I have been ranking in Government since 2002 in

0:07:21 > 0:07:25these matters, I wish to draw the House attention to more recent

0:07:25 > 0:07:30interventions. I wrote to the former Prime Minister David Cameron on the

0:07:30 > 0:07:3430th of August 2011 asking it was possible to withhold some of the

0:07:34 > 0:07:39frozen assets the benefit of Libyan sponsored terror. The then Prime

0:07:39 > 0:07:45Minister replied on the 15th of November 2011 and he repeated what

0:07:45 > 0:07:49he said any other place in September of that year in the following terms.

0:07:49 > 0:07:56I quote, the issue of compensation UK victims of IRA terrorism will be

0:07:56 > 0:07:59a important priority for a revitalised relationship between

0:07:59 > 0:08:03Britain and the new Libyan authorities. That response filled me

0:08:03 > 0:08:06with hope that things were indeed moving in the right direction. But

0:08:06 > 0:08:12fast forward to the 21st of January 2014 when I received an handset to a

0:08:12 > 0:08:20written question from the then Foreign Office minister, Baroness

0:08:20 > 0:08:28Farsi. I asked if there were still with Libyan Government for people

0:08:28 > 0:08:31killed or injured by the former Gaddafi regime. Her response was as

0:08:31 > 0:08:36follows. The Government is not involved with any negotiations with

0:08:36 > 0:08:43the Libyan Government on securing compensation payments for Britons

0:08:43 > 0:08:45from Gaddafi sponsored terrorism. They went on to say that the

0:08:45 > 0:08:49Government went on to consider such claims to be a private matter

0:08:49 > 0:08:55between the victims and the Libyan Government. I was horrified by this

0:08:55 > 0:08:59reply which was completely at odds with the response of David Cameron

0:08:59 > 0:09:03on the 15th of November 2000 and 11. Naturally, I got in touch with

0:09:03 > 0:09:10ministers again to find out what was going on. Despite a flurry of

0:09:10 > 0:09:14letters in 2014 involving David Cameron and other ministers, the

0:09:14 > 0:09:17introduction of a similar Bill to parliament last year, meetings with

0:09:17 > 0:09:23officials in the Foreign Office and the Treasury, and an enquiry by the

0:09:23 > 0:09:25Northern Ireland affairs select committee in the other place, the

0:09:25 > 0:09:30present Government indicated in response to that recently that

0:09:30 > 0:09:34claims to victims were still in their view was still a private

0:09:34 > 0:09:38matter for individuals. My Lords, this is not exclusively a private

0:09:38 > 0:09:45matter and never was. This country was attacked by proxy for over 20

0:09:45 > 0:09:50years and thousands were killed and injured. It is her duty of Her

0:09:50 > 0:09:52Majesty's Government to protect their citizens and ensure that

0:09:52 > 0:09:56justice is done. The Bill has a straightforward game. While provoked

0:09:56 > 0:10:03by the Libyan situation it is not confined to it. It seeks to make

0:10:03 > 0:10:07provision for the imposing of restrictions on assets owned by

0:10:07 > 0:10:11persons involved in conduct that gives support and assistance to

0:10:11 > 0:10:15terrorist organisations in the United Kingdom for the purpose of

0:10:15 > 0:10:18securing compensation for the citizens of the UK affected by such

0:10:18 > 0:10:26conduct. Clause one, subsection one, states that Her Majesty's Government

0:10:26 > 0:10:34must take all necessary actions to protect assets that have been frozen

0:10:34 > 0:10:37under EU Council regulations until circumstances described in

0:10:37 > 0:10:42subsection five have been met. Subsection two states that these

0:10:42 > 0:10:45actions may include imposing domestic asset freezing measures

0:10:45 > 0:10:52under the terrorist asset

0:10:52 > 0:11:02Subsection three covers those already covered. Parties who have

0:11:02 > 0:11:09been involved in support to terrorist organisations in the

0:11:09 > 0:11:17United Kingdom. Subsection four sets out when a person has spent -- been

0:11:17 > 0:11:25in touch with... Her Majesty's Treasury reasonably believes that

0:11:25 > 0:11:32the person is or has been involved in conduct that effect. Subsection

0:11:32 > 0:11:35five describes the circumstances referred to in subsection one. Under

0:11:35 > 0:11:40this provision and the frozen assets could only be released if a

0:11:40 > 0:11:46settlement to compensate UK victims of terrorism was reached. Subsection

0:11:46 > 0:11:51six outlines the definitions used by the bill. It defines terrorist

0:11:51 > 0:11:54organisations in the UK as organisations which are based in the

0:11:54 > 0:11:59UK and that the Treasury believes or have been involved in the recent

0:11:59 > 0:12:06terrorist activity, well the meaning of their terrorist asset freezing

0:12:06 > 0:12:12act. It says that UK citizens has the same meaning as their British

0:12:12 > 0:12:21nationality act of 1981. My Lords, I think it is clear from this that the

0:12:21 > 0:12:26support group which I am representing today, is fully aware

0:12:26 > 0:12:29of commitments to the United Nations and to the European Union which

0:12:29 > 0:12:34govern and control the Libyan frozen assets here in London. They consist

0:12:34 > 0:12:41of approximately £9.5 billion. However, we have never asked as a

0:12:41 > 0:12:47country the United Nations or R E E colleagues to help with this. Under

0:12:47 > 0:12:50EU regulations, there is provision for a humanitarian help for the

0:12:50 > 0:12:55owners of these assets to get access to them. So why cannot this be

0:12:55 > 0:13:02extended to the victims? The UK does have an ace card to play should that

0:13:02 > 0:13:08become necessary and if negotiations fail. If a new cover of Libya seeks

0:13:08 > 0:13:13access to these assets and other assets around the world, a decision

0:13:13 > 0:13:17will have to be taken to unfreeze them at the UN Security Council. As

0:13:17 > 0:13:23a permanent member of that council, the UK has a veto on all decisions.

0:13:23 > 0:13:27We have seen Russia and China using their veto in their own national

0:13:27 > 0:13:33interests recently concerning Syria and North Korea. Well I hope it can

0:13:33 > 0:13:37be avoided, the UK may have to follow suit if no agreement can be

0:13:37 > 0:13:41reached over Libyan assets. My Lords, I hope the minister when

0:13:41 > 0:13:46replying can assure the House that the idea that these matters are

0:13:46 > 0:13:52exclusively private is no longer the core of government policy. Private

0:13:52 > 0:13:56cases can always continue but there is a national interest here and the

0:13:56 > 0:14:00government must pursue it aggressively. At a recent meeting

0:14:00 > 0:14:05with the Foreign Secretary, the Savoy group was encouraged by a

0:14:05 > 0:14:08willingness to consider seriously what could be done. I look forward

0:14:08 > 0:14:15to what the minister will have to see in reply. I beg to move.The

0:14:15 > 0:14:23question is, will this bill be read now a second time?The Lord MPs Bill

0:14:23 > 0:14:30continues to have my support. It is subjective to ensure that

0:14:30 > 0:14:35compensation is available for the victims of a truly terrible period

0:14:35 > 0:14:42in our nation's history. The bill before us gives this has the

0:14:42 > 0:14:46opportunity to exercise one of its primary responsibilities, to ensure

0:14:46 > 0:14:53that justice is available to all. As noble Lords have highlighted in

0:14:53 > 0:14:58various debates, terrorism does not have a place in our society. Terror

0:14:58 > 0:15:05and violence is not, and was never justified in Northern Ireland are in

0:15:05 > 0:15:11any other part of the United Kingdom. Each innocent victim of

0:15:11 > 0:15:15ten, be they from Northern Ireland or the mainland, depreciates the

0:15:15 > 0:15:19support and attempts of normal laws from different parties across this

0:15:19 > 0:15:24House. As well as the support of those in another place. Including

0:15:24 > 0:15:29some of my own colleagues who have long supported this campaign. This

0:15:29 > 0:15:37Bill is also one about fairness and transparency. It would be easy to

0:15:37 > 0:15:42assume that this debate about compensation for the victims of IRA

0:15:42 > 0:15:45terrorism and believe instantly that this is solely and Northern Ireland

0:15:45 > 0:15:49issue. My Lords, I can assure you this is certainly not the case. No

0:15:49 > 0:15:57one should doubt the long-term pain and suffering that has been caused

0:15:57 > 0:16:05to so many people across the United Kingdom by IRA terrorism, sponsored

0:16:05 > 0:16:10by Gaddafi's Libya. Over the years, it has become abundantly clear that

0:16:10 > 0:16:16much of the Arsenal used during the period of maximum IRA activity and

0:16:16 > 0:16:22damage, including the guns and the deadly Semtex used to murder many,

0:16:22 > 0:16:26was made available to them as a direct result of their links with

0:16:26 > 0:16:32Gaddafi's Libya. My Lords, we can never bring the victims of this

0:16:32 > 0:16:38terror back, but as an initial step, we have a duty to do our bit to try

0:16:38 > 0:16:42to recognise the vein of their loved ones and then endeavour to secure

0:16:42 > 0:16:48some cleaning -- meaningful conversation for them. My Lords,

0:16:48 > 0:16:52today we owe it to the relatives, those killed and those who are

0:16:52 > 0:16:56injured, as a result of Irish republican violence, to deal with

0:16:56 > 0:17:01this matter in the appropriate manner. The message should be sent

0:17:01 > 0:17:05leading clear from your lordship's House that this issue is a priority.

0:17:05 > 0:17:11I believe that the United Kingdom government should continue

0:17:11 > 0:17:16negotiations to bring about a compensation package for the

0:17:16 > 0:17:23victims. And this Bill outlines the possible way forward and deserves

0:17:23 > 0:17:27careful consideration, especially when it reaches the committee stage.

0:17:27 > 0:17:35My Lords, I am pleased to support this bill.My Lords, it is always a

0:17:35 > 0:17:41great personal pleasure to speak in the same debate as my friend.

0:17:41 > 0:17:47Particularly when he himself is initiated. We came into the House at

0:17:47 > 0:17:52the same point, nearly seven years ago. I strongly share his view that

0:17:52 > 0:17:56Northern Ireland should be involved as fully as possible in the national

0:17:56 > 0:18:01affairs of the country of which it is part. At one in believing that

0:18:01 > 0:18:05this parliament must keep the province firmly within its sphere of

0:18:05 > 0:18:13work. We are united in detesting the dread phrase, devolved and forget.

0:18:13 > 0:18:18My Lords, for me personally this is a particularly poignant year. It is

0:18:18 > 0:18:25exactly 40 years ago that I left my job in the Queen 's University of

0:18:25 > 0:18:30Belfast to come and assist the Conservative spokesman on Northern

0:18:30 > 0:18:37Ireland. I saw him almost daily until his murder at the end of March

0:18:37 > 0:18:451979. His murders remain at large. It was largely thanks to Colonel

0:18:45 > 0:18:49Gaddafi and his regime of terror that the IRA were continuing their

0:18:49 > 0:18:55campaign of murder and destruction in Northern Ireland in Great Britain

0:18:55 > 0:18:59until the mid-19 90s. Victims of that campaign have been seeking

0:18:59 > 0:19:04compensation from Gaddafi's frozen assets, amounting to some £9.5

0:19:04 > 0:19:13billion. No modest sum in this country since 28 -- 2002, 15 long

0:19:13 > 0:19:17years ago. Many of them are growing old, all of them despair of ever

0:19:17 > 0:19:24receiving compensation. A huge sense of frustration exists among slum,

0:19:24 > 0:19:29understandably so when you see those who have suffered as a result of

0:19:29 > 0:19:33Libyan terrorism in Germany, France and above all in the United States,

0:19:33 > 0:19:38have gained the compensation they deserve. The final indignity is that

0:19:38 > 0:19:43their own government, here in the United Kingdom, seems to give little

0:19:43 > 0:19:48priority for assisting them in their plight. As my noble friend explained

0:19:48 > 0:19:53so clearly, the government Seaman willing to go beyond willing to help

0:19:53 > 0:19:58their own private efforts to reach agreement with the Libyan

0:19:58 > 0:20:02authorities. How can private individuals be expected to do that

0:20:02 > 0:20:09in a country in a graph of grave and stability. It is I'll job for

0:20:09 > 0:20:15government. -- in the grip. With tough-minded British governments of

0:20:15 > 0:20:20the past, Labour or Conservative, have left fellow countrymen and

0:20:20 > 0:20:25women to their own devices in such circumstances? I would remind the

0:20:25 > 0:20:32government a passage in the election manifesto, the party made full use

0:20:32 > 0:20:37of its full name for the first time this year since 1959. The section of

0:20:37 > 0:20:42the manifesto in question has the heading, standing up for victims.

0:20:42 > 0:20:47Here are a group of victims of whom the government should surely be

0:20:47 > 0:20:52standing up. My noble friend has long been prominent in the campaign

0:20:52 > 0:20:59to secure redress for those who suffered. As we know, he is a man of

0:20:59 > 0:21:02great tenacity, is very important bill which he has reintroduced in

0:21:02 > 0:21:05this session, was passed by this House before the election and

0:21:05 > 0:21:09attracted widespread support in the Commons before the government

0:21:09 > 0:21:12brought it. There can be little doubt it is the wish of Parliament

0:21:12 > 0:21:19that this bill should be Palm -- become law. The government has

0:21:19 > 0:21:23served to dip into ill gotten Gaddafi billions would be breach of

0:21:23 > 0:21:28UN Security Council sanctions and regulations and the European

0:21:28 > 0:21:32Convention on human rights. How strange that organisations and

0:21:32 > 0:21:36agreements that exist to promote justice, international order and

0:21:36 > 0:21:41human well-being should in this case frustrate them. Should a government

0:21:41 > 0:21:46committed to standing up to victims tamely except that state of affairs?

0:21:46 > 0:21:52Since my noble friend's last bill was extinguished, there has been an

0:21:52 > 0:21:57important development. The Norman -- Northern Ireland affairs committee

0:21:57 > 0:22:03has published a report on this subject. Six months on, the

0:22:03 > 0:22:08government has yet to respond which comes as no surprise. Prompt

0:22:08 > 0:22:14government surprises are as rare as amicable agreements over Brexit

0:22:14 > 0:22:20issues. If nothing has been achieved for the IRA's victims by the end of

0:22:20 > 0:22:24this year, and we will soon be there, the government should settle

0:22:24 > 0:22:29up under its own to finance committee projects and provide

0:22:29 > 0:22:32individuals with compensation. What is the government's view of this

0:22:32 > 0:22:38recommendation? In these deeply unsatisfactory circumstances, we

0:22:38 > 0:22:43must surely show our support for my noble friend's commitments for

0:22:43 > 0:22:50ending a long-standing injustice by getting his bill a second reading.

0:22:50 > 0:22:57My Lords, I support my noble friend and his bill. We seek to release

0:22:57 > 0:23:02these frozen assets. As has been said before, the Gaddafi regime

0:23:02 > 0:23:07supplied the IRA with weaponry in the early 1970s and the mid-19 80s.

0:23:07 > 0:23:13The quantities were vast and as a result the IRA were able to escalate

0:23:13 > 0:23:18their campaign. As part of the shipments and nearly 1980s, the IRA

0:23:18 > 0:23:28required -- acquired Semtex from Libya. A coral -- according to a

0:23:28 > 0:23:35journalist, from late 1986 to early 2000, every bomb constructed by the

0:23:35 > 0:23:39provisionally IRA, such as the real IRA has contained Semtex from Libya,

0:23:39 > 0:23:45shipment unknown and an Irish port in 1986. My Lords, as someone who

0:23:45 > 0:23:49has lived in Northern Ireland through that period, it is sobering

0:23:49 > 0:23:52to think so much death and destruction that was unleashed on

0:23:52 > 0:23:56nurseries came from one source - Libya. The biggest arms shipments

0:23:56 > 0:24:05arrived in a beach in the late 1986. It consisted of 80 tonnes of

0:24:05 > 0:24:09weaponry, including seven rocket propelled grenades, ten

0:24:09 > 0:24:15surface-to-air missiles and a tonne of Semtex, plastic explosives. The

0:24:15 > 0:24:19shipment was the fourth landed in a 14 month period that would transform

0:24:19 > 0:24:26the IRA's ability to conduct its terrorist campaign. Untold suffering

0:24:26 > 0:24:33was caused by the weapons supplied by Gaddafi. The dead and more to the

0:24:33 > 0:24:43state still carried the physical and mental scars. It is little short of

0:24:43 > 0:24:46a national scandal that British victims of Gaddafi's weaponry should

0:24:46 > 0:24:51be reduced to virtually begging the government for justice. As a result

0:24:51 > 0:25:00of Lockerbie, the current averages the Americans and French all secured

0:25:00 > 0:25:07compensation of their victims. And this situation, really highlights

0:25:07 > 0:25:11all the more starkly the failure of successive British governments to

0:25:11 > 0:25:16secure some ideals for our citizens. Why should our people be left to be

0:25:16 > 0:25:22ill treated than the Americans, French and German citizens? Surely

0:25:22 > 0:25:26British governments, what ever political complexion, should be

0:25:26 > 0:25:31standing up for the rights for British citizens. Suspicions have

0:25:31 > 0:25:35been raised that when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, and Libya was

0:25:35 > 0:25:39bringing in from the cold, secret deal was done whereby the UK would

0:25:39 > 0:25:53not pursue compensation. It is also suggested that... Of course that is

0:25:53 > 0:25:57not the only secret deal which Mr Blair has associated when it comes

0:25:57 > 0:26:03to Northern Ireland. You will recall the shameful letters which were

0:26:03 > 0:26:08distributed more than 200 republican terror suspects in which are

0:26:08 > 0:26:13effectively stay out of jail free cards. These items were part of a

0:26:13 > 0:26:17secret deal between Tony Blair and Sinn Fein IRA. And the fact that

0:26:17 > 0:26:24many were handed out by Gerry Kelly, a man convicted of bombing the Old

0:26:24 > 0:26:26Bailey in March 1973, merely compounds the insults to the

0:26:31 > 0:26:35My noble friend has been tenacious in his pursuit of this issue and he

0:26:35 > 0:26:40deserves a great deal of credit for his efforts to raise the profile of

0:26:40 > 0:26:44the Libyan connection to terrorism and ensure that victims can assure

0:26:44 > 0:26:49that the Government has knots forgotten and have a measure of

0:26:49 > 0:26:55justice. As he said, he has been talking to the Government about

0:26:55 > 0:27:00Gaddafi and Libya since 2002. In all those years he has never heard a

0:27:00 > 0:27:04coherent explanation for the failure of the Government to get

0:27:04 > 0:27:08compensation for UK citizens and all the damage that Gaddafi has done as

0:27:08 > 0:27:13a result by applying the IRA with weapons and training for over 20

0:27:13 > 0:27:18years. Last year he bought a private members Bill before Parliament but

0:27:18 > 0:27:23unfortunately it ran out of time. And he is now reintroduced it and

0:27:23 > 0:27:27has my wholehearted support. Quite simply, the average person in the

0:27:27 > 0:27:32street will find it incomprehensible that Libya has 9.5 billion frozen

0:27:32 > 0:27:37assets in London alone. Is it not unreasonable a position for some of

0:27:37 > 0:27:42that to want to go towards to those who have suffered greatly as a

0:27:42 > 0:27:46result of Gadhafi's Semtex and other weapons that was placed in the hands

0:27:46 > 0:27:53of psychopaths. The great and the good seem excessively reluctant to

0:27:53 > 0:27:57lift a finger to people who suffered terribly as a result of this. Many

0:27:57 > 0:28:00of the events took place over 30 years ago and time is running out

0:28:00 > 0:28:05for the victims. Soothing words from Government and officialdom are

0:28:05 > 0:28:12simply not enough. We must persevere to raise the profile of this issue

0:28:12 > 0:28:17and continue to seek justice for individual victims and the UK as a

0:28:17 > 0:28:21whole because of the huge damage done by Gadhafi. For me, is it is

0:28:21 > 0:28:29about fairness and justice. And so doing the right thing. My Lords,

0:28:29 > 0:28:33once again I commend him for his efforts in this regard and I can

0:28:33 > 0:28:40assure him and the House that he has mine and the Unionist parties. .

0:28:40 > 0:28:44Speaking briefly in the gap can adversely congratulate the noble

0:28:44 > 0:28:48lord for the persistence he is shown on this issue. I wish to express

0:28:48 > 0:28:55support for this Bill despite the fact that I do not necessarily agree

0:28:55 > 0:28:59with everything that has been said in the course of the proposal and

0:28:59 > 0:29:07support. It would be wrong of me not to put on the record a correction to

0:29:07 > 0:29:15the caricature that was given of the letters that were sent to the

0:29:15 > 0:29:19so-called on the runs. They did nothing more than inform those

0:29:19 > 0:29:25people who were not being pursued by the police, that they were not being

0:29:25 > 0:29:30pursued by the police. In the case of Downey mistake was made and that

0:29:30 > 0:29:34is why he can use that. Notwithstanding that correction, I

0:29:34 > 0:29:38support this Bill, and I supported for a reason that hasn't yet been

0:29:38 > 0:29:43outlined. It is this, when I was Secretary of State for Northern

0:29:43 > 0:29:46Ireland, like everyone else who held that position I was extremely aware

0:29:46 > 0:29:54of the number of victims on all sides of the community. Some people

0:29:54 > 0:29:59call that the Troubles, it was a war. It was a war against the best,

0:29:59 > 0:30:03most effective gorilla army in Western Europe at the time. There

0:30:03 > 0:30:09were victims on all sides. However there was an imbalance in the

0:30:09 > 0:30:12opportunities that some of the victims had to claim compensation.

0:30:12 > 0:30:17For this reason. That if you claim you are the victim of a state there

0:30:17 > 0:30:26is a whole plethora apparatus system and process of laws that allow you a

0:30:26 > 0:30:30great more opportunity to claim compensation against the state then

0:30:30 > 0:30:33if you were the victim of a terrorist organisation. By virtue of

0:30:33 > 0:30:38the fact that they do not have the status that a state hires and

0:30:38 > 0:30:43therefore that anyone claimed they suffered as a victim of British

0:30:43 > 0:30:49pilots had opportunities to claim compensation that was denied to many

0:30:49 > 0:30:56other than. In this case as has been pointed out, they were actually the

0:30:56 > 0:31:00victims, indirectly and directly of the state, the state of Libya. So

0:31:00 > 0:31:05for the first time the victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland would

0:31:05 > 0:31:09have, if supported by the British Government, the opportunity to use

0:31:09 > 0:31:14the very laws that those who have claimed to be the victims of British

0:31:14 > 0:31:18state violence have never had previously. I therefore think that

0:31:18 > 0:31:23this House should therefore support this Bill because I do believe that

0:31:23 > 0:31:29where the state of Libya has been involved through the head of their

0:31:29 > 0:31:35state, Gadhafi, there was a direct relationship between the finance and

0:31:35 > 0:31:38the resources that they used for terrorism and the effects in

0:31:38 > 0:31:44Northern Ireland. Having said that, I merely want to say that the

0:31:44 > 0:31:48persistence of the Lord has shown is commendable and the House should

0:31:48 > 0:31:56support him in his endeavours.May I be permitted to add a very brief

0:31:56 > 0:32:02grace note in the gap. The day before I was sworn in as a High

0:32:02 > 0:32:06Court judge, and under car booby trap bomb was left under my car. By

0:32:06 > 0:32:14the grace of God I saw it and I escaped myself. A very brave

0:32:14 > 0:32:21ammunition technical officer risked his life to disk use it and was only

0:32:21 > 0:32:24partially successful. An explosion took place and there was an immense

0:32:24 > 0:32:32amount of damage to my car, which was a write-off, my house, contents,

0:32:32 > 0:32:39and by way of after-effects to my wife's health. I had to get on with

0:32:39 > 0:32:44my job, thankfully I was able to do so. She was badly affected and for a

0:32:44 > 0:32:51long time. A couple of years later, my very close friend and colleague,

0:32:51 > 0:32:55Maurice Gibson was blown up in his car by a roadside bomb when he

0:32:55 > 0:33:01crossed the border with his wife. The car and its occupants were

0:33:01 > 0:33:10incinerated. This is distress to his family which opens in close-up can

0:33:10 > 0:33:13never be compensated sufficiently, but it should be registered and an

0:33:13 > 0:33:21attempt made. I really produce these remarks for the simple reason that

0:33:21 > 0:33:29showing the distress and effect are real and personal foot very many

0:33:29 > 0:33:32people. Many far more than I have, but I can appreciate their feelings

0:33:32 > 0:33:36and their wishes that this Bill should go through. I have pleasure

0:33:36 > 0:33:47in supporting it.My Lords, I join what is so far the unanimous voices

0:33:47 > 0:33:55of all who are spoken in this House and I am very grateful to the

0:33:55 > 0:33:58additional noble Lords who spoke in the gap. In particular of course

0:33:58 > 0:34:05grateful to my noble friend Lord Reed who identified just wide this

0:34:05 > 0:34:15is an issue which the Government needs to address. The Lord is to be

0:34:15 > 0:34:17greatly applauded for his persistence in regard to this issue.

0:34:17 > 0:34:28The previous Bill which he extended in this second Bill now and make it

0:34:28 > 0:34:33even more clear exactly what ought to be achieved. The previous Bill of

0:34:33 > 0:34:40course fell foul of those practices in the Commons which result in the

0:34:40 > 0:34:47exhaustion of time. An awful lot of members of Parliament, and let me

0:34:47 > 0:34:53say as a former member of Parliament myself, in the category of others,

0:34:53 > 0:35:00have suffered the loss of a Bill directed towards an exceptional

0:35:00 > 0:35:03cause but the waywardness of Parliamentary procedure sees that

0:35:03 > 0:35:10the Bill does not get the progress which it deserves. Most of this I

0:35:10 > 0:35:18think, at that point, give up on the endeavours. The Lord should be

0:35:18 > 0:35:23greatly congratulated on the fact that he is persisting with these

0:35:23 > 0:35:30issues and has brought this Bill before the House. My Lords, he may

0:35:30 > 0:35:36beginning to think that he's somewhat resembles Sisyphus who

0:35:36 > 0:35:40constantly had a burden to Bill and roll up the hill. Sisyphus was never

0:35:40 > 0:35:46successful of course, and we do hope that the Lord will be successful

0:35:46 > 0:35:51with with this measure or the very least that the Bill itself can't be

0:35:51 > 0:35:56commended that the Minister will indicate progressive action by the

0:35:56 > 0:36:03Government which will give effect to its most crucial propositions. My

0:36:03 > 0:36:09Lords, we have no doubt about the justice of his cause and we wish the

0:36:09 > 0:36:16Bill well. In the House of Commons of course, we have a considerable

0:36:16 > 0:36:22number of members who are giving support to this issue. My right

0:36:22 > 0:36:29honourable friend Jim Fitzpatrick who represents the constituency of

0:36:29 > 0:36:36Canary Wharf which was one of the horror stories in that period not as

0:36:36 > 0:36:40when Northern Ireland suffered, but the great cities of Birmingham and

0:36:40 > 0:36:43Manchester, and London with several attacks, and other tax my Lords

0:36:43 > 0:36:53Frosty think that in fact -- attacks that it was difficult to sustain

0:36:53 > 0:37:03normal life in the capital,... Public transport. When Jim fix

0:37:03 > 0:37:12Patrick pursues these issues he is actually representing his

0:37:12 > 0:37:19constituents in a way which they have the right to expect. And of

0:37:19 > 0:37:22course noble Lords speaking from Northern Ireland have reflected

0:37:22 > 0:37:28exactly that consideration with regard to people who they used to

0:37:28 > 0:37:32represent in the Commons. So my Lords, what we have learnt through

0:37:32 > 0:37:40all of this is that dreaded word Semtex, which I think very few of us

0:37:40 > 0:37:50knew anything about until the Libyan government began to obtain supplies

0:37:50 > 0:37:57from the authorities and then begin to disseminate Semtex into

0:37:57 > 0:38:05particularly Northern Ireland, the IRA. It is the case that other

0:38:05 > 0:38:10governments have made more progress than ours. We all recognise that the

0:38:10 > 0:38:14law is different in other countries, and the Americans are certainly able

0:38:14 > 0:38:21to take executive action in a way in which it is not open to the British

0:38:21 > 0:38:27Government to pursue in the same way. At I hope the noble lord the

0:38:27 > 0:38:32Minister will be able to indicate that the Government which has now

0:38:32 > 0:38:40had several years of opportunity for real thought on this issue, and

0:38:40 > 0:38:43pressure that is represented by noble Lords here and members in the

0:38:43 > 0:38:47other place that the Government is coming up with some constructive

0:38:47 > 0:38:53proposals. Now I recognise the Minister has drawn the short straw,

0:38:53 > 0:38:58the first debate on Friday is bad enough. The first debate on a Friday

0:38:58 > 0:39:03when he has got a fairly thin case to deploy, or has had in the past,

0:39:03 > 0:39:08is even more of an owner is burdening, but he is a competent and

0:39:08 > 0:39:12capable when Mr who we all respect and I know that Will he will have

0:39:12 > 0:39:19pressed his servants that he has an element of constructive response

0:39:19 > 0:39:24today. Because I don't think the House will take kindly to the

0:39:24 > 0:39:29forestalling which has gone on in the past by Government in response

0:39:29 > 0:39:34to the arguments contained in these issues. That's why it will mean that

0:39:34 > 0:39:41the Government needs to give some encouragement. I am not expecting

0:39:41 > 0:39:47them to say that the noble lord's Bill will sail through both houses

0:39:47 > 0:39:51without contention. I'm not even going to ask him to say that is

0:39:51 > 0:39:55bound to succeed. What I am asking him to say is that from the elements

0:39:55 > 0:39:59of the Bill there are demands for constructive action to which the

0:39:59 > 0:40:11Government has got a duty to respond.My Lords, first of all, in

0:40:11 > 0:40:21thanking the noble lord and everyone's contribution we can

0:40:21 > 0:40:25reflect on the issue in front of us. The issue is one of victims and

0:40:25 > 0:40:30victims are at the heart of what is the crux of intent behind the Bill

0:40:30 > 0:40:35and that is something that the Ottoman does not take lightly. In

0:40:35 > 0:40:39congratulating the noble lord in securing the second reading of the

0:40:39 > 0:40:45Bill, I congratulate all noble Lords who have contributed, and I assure

0:40:45 > 0:40:51you that I do not regard this as drawing a short straw on a Friday. I

0:40:51 > 0:40:55know on a light moment that it is half term and children who have not

0:40:55 > 0:40:58seen daddy much this week it is a challenge, it underlines the

0:40:58 > 0:41:02important that I myself, as Minister for State at the Foreign Office for

0:41:02 > 0:41:08the human rights, for the UN, along with the Foreign Secretary, along

0:41:08 > 0:41:11with my colleague responsible for the Middle East are now giving to

0:41:11 > 0:41:11this issue.

0:41:16 > 0:41:20The issue continues to be highly relevant as Lord Davis and others

0:41:20 > 0:41:24have said, which continues to be highly relevant in Parliament, not

0:41:24 > 0:41:29just in our House, but in Another Place as well. In doing so, I would

0:41:29 > 0:41:33like to acknowledge the valuable work of the Northern Ireland affairs

0:41:33 > 0:41:40committee in the Other Place. This includes the Government support for

0:41:40 > 0:41:46UK victims of IRA attacks that use Semtex and weapons supplied by the

0:41:46 > 0:41:51former Libyan leader. On that note, if I may say to my noble friend that

0:41:51 > 0:41:55the Government has responded in September to the report and perhaps

0:41:55 > 0:41:58if there are specific matters relating to the Government's

0:41:58 > 0:42:01response it will be happy to take that up with him outside the

0:42:01 > 0:42:06chamber. If I may just, to again, reit thor

0:42:06 > 0:42:11rate, that the Government re-- reiterate, that the Government

0:42:11 > 0:42:17regards this as a long-standing issue. It is complex and emotive. It

0:42:17 > 0:42:20is complicated by the further economic and security circumstances

0:42:20 > 0:42:31that we see prevailing in Libya today. Only yesterday I talked

0:42:31 > 0:42:34specifically about the humanitarian assistance to the people within

0:42:34 > 0:42:43Libya. And my Lords, I don't hide from the fact, as someone who the PM

0:42:43 > 0:42:47special representative on preventing sexual violence, what we are seeing

0:42:47 > 0:42:52in Libya today lends great horror to the situation on the ground.

0:42:52 > 0:42:56However, in reassuring noble Lord's, let me make it sure that the

0:42:56 > 0:43:00Government remains focused on finding a way forward. In this

0:43:00 > 0:43:03regard I would like to highlight for noble Lords a few recent events

0:43:03 > 0:43:08which have taken place. Firstly, over the last few weeks my Right

0:43:08 > 0:43:13Honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and the minister for the

0:43:13 > 0:43:16Middle East have hosted meetings with victims' groups and

0:43:16 > 0:43:22parliamentarians. I believe the lobl Lord MP was present at these

0:43:22 > 0:43:29meeting. They were held in a positive and progressive way. Let me

0:43:29 > 0:43:33also assure Noble Lord's, particularly Lord Davis and others

0:43:33 > 0:43:36the Government has raised the bar. We continue to raise these issues

0:43:36 > 0:43:38with the Libyan authorities and directly with the Libyan

0:43:38 > 0:43:42authorities. I've heard very carefully and listened very

0:43:42 > 0:43:48carefully to the concerns expressed that victims' groups alone can now

0:43:48 > 0:43:51represent the tragedy they have suffered, they continue to suffer.

0:43:51 > 0:43:54Therefore, it is right that the Foreign Secretary has raised this

0:43:54 > 0:43:59issue. Not once, not twice, but three occasions recently with the

0:43:59 > 0:44:07Prime Minister and we will continue to do so. Let me assure those who

0:44:07 > 0:44:13represent, in this chamber and in the Other scan place, who represent

0:44:13 > 0:44:16the victims' groups, they do not go unheard. Added to the commitment

0:44:16 > 0:44:20that my Right Honourable friends have given in terms of their

0:44:20 > 0:44:24continuing meeting victims' groups and indeed with members across both

0:44:24 > 0:44:29Houses, I can assure them that I will continue to expend my energies

0:44:29 > 0:44:35as well, working with the Noble Lord and others to make sure this

0:44:35 > 0:44:38maintains the momentum it deserves. Equally, I do accept the criticism

0:44:38 > 0:44:44that can be levelled, that whilst we are doing this, we need to ensure we

0:44:44 > 0:44:48are communicating what efforts are being undertaken. As I was listening

0:44:48 > 0:44:53very carefully to the history of the IRA bombings, in particular I heard

0:44:53 > 0:45:01the words and the poignant words of my noble friend when he talked of

0:45:01 > 0:45:08it, it struck a tone. We heard from Lord. Consider arswell as well on

0:45:08 > 0:45:10this

0:45:14 > 0:45:18-- Lord Carswell as well on this particular issue. It was strange for

0:45:18 > 0:45:27a young man out of university, who started with NatWest that the place

0:45:27 > 0:45:32near his place of work, Bishop gate, had been hit. I remember it well. It

0:45:32 > 0:45:37was 24th April. It remains engraved in my memory. It was a place I

0:45:37 > 0:45:41commuted to day, in, day out. Thankfully, on that occasion, the

0:45:41 > 0:45:47victims very limited by the fact it was on a Saturday. This issue is not

0:45:47 > 0:45:54just and the point was made by the Noble Lord and others, we cannot

0:45:54 > 0:45:58regard this for victims in one particular region. This, as he

0:45:58 > 0:46:03rightly articulated, is something for the whole of the United Kingdom.

0:46:03 > 0:46:10And in doing so, let me turn to the contents of the bill itself. Its aim

0:46:10 > 0:46:14is to secure compensation for victims of terrorist organisations

0:46:14 > 0:46:20in the UK. It seeks to restrict assets on those owned by persons who

0:46:20 > 0:46:25assist those organisations. It proposes where those assets have,

0:46:25 > 0:46:30assets of those who have supported terrorist organisations in the UK

0:46:30 > 0:46:36are currently frozen, in accordance with UN Security Council Resolutions

0:46:36 > 0:46:39and under the EU council regulations, the Government should

0:46:39 > 0:46:45ensure those assets are not released until agreement is reached on the

0:46:45 > 0:46:48compensation settlement for victims. The intention behind the bill is

0:46:48 > 0:46:52both honourable and clearly seeks to right a wrong perpetrated on

0:46:52 > 0:47:00innocent people. Weapon, as we have heard, from various Noble Lords,

0:47:00 > 0:47:03including the be important intervention, weapons funding,

0:47:03 > 0:47:08training, explosives provided by Gaddafi to the Provisional IRA

0:47:08 > 0:47:13exacerbated the troubles. We have heard the word Semtex become regular

0:47:13 > 0:47:18in the minds of people, which was previously unheard of. It

0:47:18 > 0:47:22contributed to great human suffering in both Northern Ireland, but also

0:47:22 > 0:47:28across the rest of Great Britain. I fully understand that the bill is

0:47:28 > 0:47:33designed to secure compensation to victims. As has been acknowledged by

0:47:33 > 0:47:39several Noble Lords, we currently have around £9.5 billion of Libyan

0:47:39 > 0:47:46assets frozen throughout the UK. Noble Lords have acknowledged these

0:47:46 > 0:47:52under Security Council Resolution 9.1.73 at the time of the rev

0:47:52 > 0:47:59lulings in 2011, at the request of those toppling Colonel Gaddafi's

0:47:59 > 0:48:04regime. They belong to the state or their ownership is claimed by the

0:48:04 > 0:48:09Libyan state itself. Of course there are, and Noble Lords acknowledge

0:48:09 > 0:48:14this point, there are obligations on the part of the UK which affect what

0:48:14 > 0:48:18can and cannot happen to Libyan assets frozen in the UK.

0:48:18 > 0:48:22My Noble Lords will be aware of the difficulties that can be posed by

0:48:22 > 0:48:28freezing assets, particularly with relevance to the property rights

0:48:28 > 0:48:31protected under the European Convention on Human Rights. There

0:48:31 > 0:48:37were questions raised on the issue of our obligations under

0:48:37 > 0:48:45international law. We continue to focus on these specifically. And

0:48:45 > 0:48:47retain these obligations of this particular issue in front of us. It

0:48:47 > 0:48:51is important to remember that the ownership of some of theses a sets

0:48:51 > 0:48:55is also still in dispute. Until those disputes are settled, we

0:48:55 > 0:49:00cannot say for certain to whom they belong. The UN Security Council

0:49:00 > 0:49:04Resolutions Governing the Libyan sanctions regime provide that frozen

0:49:04 > 0:49:08assets, when they are determined to belong to the Libyan state, are to

0:49:08 > 0:49:12be made available to the Libyan people for their benefit. If the UK

0:49:12 > 0:49:17were to act, so as to interfere with this purpose we would be in breach

0:49:17 > 0:49:20of our obligations under international a law. That said, my

0:49:20 > 0:49:23Lords, I totally understand and I hope I have made the point clearly

0:49:23 > 0:49:28that we continue to raise this issue at the highest level with the

0:49:28 > 0:49:33administration in Libya, including the Prime Minister. There are

0:49:33 > 0:49:38practical difficulties with the bill currently as drafted around the

0:49:38 > 0:49:45proposed use of powers under the terrorist asset freezing act, 2010.

0:49:45 > 0:49:49That said, my Lords, there are practical steps which the Government

0:49:49 > 0:49:54is taking. In recent meetings with parliamentarians and victims with

0:49:54 > 0:49:59both the Foreign Secretary and Mr Burt and made clear the Government's

0:49:59 > 0:50:03intention to make sure we communicate effectively and step up

0:50:03 > 0:50:06engagement on this issue directly with the Libyan authorities to

0:50:06 > 0:50:09ensure those efforts are visible and the momentum continues.

0:50:09 > 0:50:14Because it is important we do that in the interests of the victims and

0:50:14 > 0:50:17their representatives. We need to recognise, of course,

0:50:17 > 0:50:22that the political situation in Libya remains extremely fragile. The

0:50:22 > 0:50:26UK Government, I assure all Noble Lords is currently working to

0:50:26 > 0:50:29support the UN-led political process in Libya in order to create a

0:50:29 > 0:50:32Government which is better able to deliver for the Libyan people and

0:50:32 > 0:50:37better able to take forward the work on a wide range of issue, including

0:50:37 > 0:50:43legacy issues. Let me assure you that the Foreign Office will remain

0:50:43 > 0:50:45activity engaged in supporting victims and their representatives.

0:50:45 > 0:50:50We will seek redress from the Libyan authorities. We will continue to

0:50:50 > 0:50:54press the Libyan Government to meet victims' groups and facilitate such

0:50:54 > 0:50:57meetings to ensure their representatives can discuss their

0:50:57 > 0:51:01campaign directly as well. Nothing, my Lords, and that has been

0:51:01 > 0:51:05cleared by sentiments across the board in the contributions this

0:51:05 > 0:51:09morning, nothing, my Lords, can compensate for the suffering of the

0:51:09 > 0:51:15victims and their families. Lets me assure all Noble Lords, I as a

0:51:15 > 0:51:19Minister of State in the Foreign Office and my colleagues, both the

0:51:19 > 0:51:22Minister of State for the Middle East and the Foreign Secretary,

0:51:22 > 0:51:25remain determined to play our part to support the victims and their

0:51:25 > 0:51:29families as part of the Government's wider efforts to address the legacy

0:51:29 > 0:51:34of the troubles in Northern Ireland. And as I finally, in my closing

0:51:34 > 0:51:39remarks, thank the Noble Lord for securing this important date, let me

0:51:39 > 0:51:42do that with the reassurance that we will continue to raise this issue

0:51:42 > 0:51:46directly with the Libyan Government and certainly whatever I can extend

0:51:46 > 0:51:50in terms of support in strengthening that effort I will certainly make

0:51:50 > 0:51:55Miss Available in that respect.

0:51:56 > 0:52:00My Lords, I would like to thank those who have participated in

0:52:00 > 0:52:08today's debate and I just wanted to go over a few points. First of all

0:52:08 > 0:52:14Lord Rogan told, referred to the Semtex and the escalation of the

0:52:14 > 0:52:20campaign and also the fact that citizens from other countries did

0:52:20 > 0:52:23achieve a degree of compensation and we acknowledged that and I think

0:52:23 > 0:52:29that is one of the things that has been, like salt in the wound to many

0:52:29 > 0:52:39of the victims of this. I've also appreciated the intervention of the

0:52:39 > 0:52:45Noble Lord. He makes a technical point about the letters, which I

0:52:45 > 0:52:53understand. But I to say to him that of all the things that have happened

0:52:53 > 0:52:58over the years, the production of a piece of paper in a court - the

0:52:58 > 0:53:04existence of which was not known to anybody out with the Government of

0:53:04 > 0:53:09the day. And the terrorists who held it.

0:53:09 > 0:53:16Was a big shock, to put it mildly. And the truth of the matter is that

0:53:16 > 0:53:24when all is said and done, a person who is charged with four counts of

0:53:24 > 0:53:28murder and charged with contributing to an explosion in this country,

0:53:28 > 0:53:34where this was the intirs t person to be brought before the courts

0:53:34 > 0:53:40between 1982-2014 on this matter, was able to leave the court a free

0:53:40 > 0:53:45man.

0:53:47 > 0:53:51You You can look at all the technicalities which surround that,

0:53:51 > 0:53:55but that is what happened. That has been an absolute shock to the core

0:53:55 > 0:53:59of many people. Now, we know there were mistakes made, perhaps at

0:53:59 > 0:54:04police level and so on. And I accept all of that.

0:54:04 > 0:54:10But the very fact is pieces of paper existed that were not known about

0:54:10 > 0:54:16and that, I know theish shoo shoe was a very sensitive issue. I am

0:54:16 > 0:54:20very well aware of that through all the negotiations and it wasn't a

0:54:20 > 0:54:24matter that could be left hanging completely in the wind.

0:54:24 > 0:54:28Nevertheless; people were shocked. It wasn't done in a way, and it is

0:54:28 > 0:54:32also the fact that the people who were in position of some of these

0:54:32 > 0:54:38letters are the same people who were trying to hound members of the

0:54:38 > 0:54:43security forces who were acting on our behalf at the same time. So they

0:54:43 > 0:54:49were having their cake and eating it as well. Nevertheless, he, Lord Reid

0:54:49 > 0:54:54did make the point about the imbalance and I think that is at the

0:54:54 > 0:55:01core of why people are so upset. Lord Carswell, with his personal

0:55:01 > 0:55:08experiences, I am well aware of my late aunt and uncle Louvred across

0:55:08 > 0:55:13the road from where he lived and someone as conscientious as he was,

0:55:13 > 0:55:18to find the device, there would be very few people who get get under

0:55:18 > 0:55:23their vehicles would, like a mechanic would, to search the

0:55:23 > 0:55:30vehicles for the device and I thank God that he and his family escaped

0:55:30 > 0:55:31vehicles for the device and I thank God that he and his family escaped.

0:55:34 > 0:55:40I think in that context it must be worth reminding that it killed one

0:55:40 > 0:55:48of Margaret Thatcher's ministers... The noble lord is absolutely right

0:55:48 > 0:55:53and if you look inside the chamber of the House of Commons you will

0:55:53 > 0:55:58see, above the door, representatives of those members of the House of

0:55:58 > 0:56:13Commons who were killed, and those are represented, those names are

0:56:13 > 0:56:23over the door, I think that was a very poignant intervention. I

0:56:23 > 0:56:28appreciate the talks about Parliamentary procedure and as a

0:56:28 > 0:56:34hand in the sings I'm sure over the years he has been happy to use the

0:56:34 > 0:56:40odd bit of procedure himself as we all have, but nevertheless he does

0:56:40 > 0:56:44make the point, and chinos and everybody knows, that a private

0:56:44 > 0:56:49member is not able and doesn't have the resources to draft all the

0:56:49 > 0:56:56technicalities that I needed in a private members Bill, although I do

0:56:56 > 0:57:05thank the public Bill offers for their assistance, I am well aware

0:57:05 > 0:57:09that without the backing it is difficult to make progress. But what

0:57:09 > 0:57:13it does do, is it create a platform for members to bring issues to the

0:57:13 > 0:57:22public, into the public domain. I make no excuse whatsoever, that is

0:57:22 > 0:57:25what we're trying to do here, I thank the noble lord for

0:57:25 > 0:57:37contribution and support, when we discuss the Bill last time, there

0:57:37 > 0:57:40was a contribution on behalf of the Labour Party. We appreciate all of

0:57:40 > 0:57:48those matters. Lord Browne and mention the two words fairness and

0:57:48 > 0:57:50transparency, these are two things that have been sorely lacking over

0:57:50 > 0:57:59the years. Of course, my noble friend use the phrase devolved and

0:57:59 > 0:58:07forget with the reference to devolution and I suspect the

0:58:07 > 0:58:17circumstances we find in dull fast at the moment, forgetting doesn't

0:58:17 > 0:58:25work -- Belfast. What happened in March 1979, I am standing offer

0:58:25 > 0:58:29victims, and I have to say that it years been one of the most

0:58:29 > 0:58:34consistent and persistent supporters of Northern Ireland over his

0:58:34 > 0:58:42lifetime and we greatly appreciated. The minister in his response, let me

0:58:42 > 0:58:51put it to him in this way. The quote I made in my speech quoting what

0:58:51 > 0:58:57David Cameron said in 2011 and what ironist Farsi said in 2014 were

0:58:57 > 0:59:07totally inconsistent. -- Baroness. The Minister did use a phrase which

0:59:07 > 0:59:16I welcome when he said they would now be prepared to pursue more

0:59:16 > 0:59:22openly and communicate more effectively with people who are the

0:59:22 > 0:59:30victims. In other words, he used the phrase seat redress. That is an

0:59:30 > 0:59:34improvement for the Government in 2014 there were saying they were

0:59:34 > 0:59:42having no involvement whatsoever. I think the Foreign Secretary who

0:59:42 > 0:59:49hosted the meeting with Alistair Burt, he had the ambassador to Libya

0:59:49 > 0:59:52present and a number of officials say he was taking the matter

0:59:52 > 0:59:58seriously. I believe his approach is beginning to focus the Government on

0:59:58 > 1:00:04doing something about this. We all know the people of Libya where the

1:00:04 > 1:00:11principal sufferers over the regime of Gaddafi. It was a personal

1:00:11 > 1:00:15fiefdom, it was brutalised, people disappeared and were treated

1:00:15 > 1:00:19appallingly. We are not seeking to ignore those or or put those people

1:00:19 > 1:00:26aside. Those people of Libya had to understand that they are not alone.

1:00:26 > 1:00:33The people of this country have to be taken into this account. It is

1:00:33 > 1:00:36the duty of the Government, is first duty is to protect its citizens.

1:00:36 > 1:00:41That is the important and first duty of Government. The fact of the

1:00:41 > 1:00:44matter is that I did attend hearings of the Northern Ireland affairs

1:00:44 > 1:00:49committee when a number of other persons were present including Jack

1:00:49 > 1:00:55Straw, former Foreign Secretary, and when the question of compensation

1:00:55 > 1:00:59was raised, he said they have orally received compensation. Many of them

1:00:59 > 1:01:06may have from the British taxpayer, but it is not the British taxpayer

1:01:06 > 1:01:10who should be paying, it is the people who perpetrated and provided

1:01:10 > 1:01:14the material so the terrorists could operate in this country. Therefore

1:01:14 > 1:01:20there is a state to state issue here. That is the one thing that the

1:01:20 > 1:01:24Government, and I think we can claim today that they have moved from the

1:01:24 > 1:01:27position saying that it is purely a private matter, to the position

1:01:27 > 1:01:38where there has to be state to state involvement. Which are not mutually

1:01:38 > 1:01:41exclusive. That represents a step forward and I welcome that.

1:01:41 > 1:01:44Reference was made to Jim Fitzpatrick on the other place, he

1:01:44 > 1:01:50has been a stalwart campaigner and I attended a debate that he had in

1:01:50 > 1:01:54Westminster Hall last year, and he was one of those present when we met

1:01:54 > 1:02:01the Foreign Secretary at a few weeks ago. Along with the group chair, we

1:02:01 > 1:02:08have also had quite a substantial amount of support and it does meet

1:02:08 > 1:02:14from time to time. This is not a party issue. This is a Parliamentary

1:02:14 > 1:02:18issue, it is a national issue. We do not know the politics of the people

1:02:18 > 1:02:22involved and it is none of our business. The fact is that a group

1:02:22 > 1:02:27of our citizens have suffered directly as a result of the actions

1:02:27 > 1:02:34of the state of Libya under the Gaddafi regime. While people will be

1:02:34 > 1:02:37free to take private cases against individuals who they know or think

1:02:37 > 1:02:41or believe were involved, the fact is that this is not a matter that

1:02:41 > 1:02:46the Government can sit on its hands over. I hope that the contribution

1:02:46 > 1:02:49that the Minister has made today when he says that the Government

1:02:49 > 1:02:59will seek redress, that implies it will actually do some in. I hope

1:02:59 > 1:03:08that the noble lord Minister will anticipate the fact that if we do

1:03:08 > 1:03:15not seek this redress being sought in an active way, I am quite certain

1:03:15 > 1:03:18that following what all members have said following their remarks, we

1:03:18 > 1:03:27will be back to ensure that this matter does not fall down through

1:03:27 > 1:03:32the cracks. We have brought bills to years running, we will bring them

1:03:32 > 1:03:38every year if we have to. This is not coming we will give up on, if it

1:03:38 > 1:03:42takes letters, if it takes delegations, whatever it takes, we

1:03:42 > 1:03:46will persist. I think the Government have to realise that they will not

1:03:46 > 1:03:50be able to, that this is not something that can be put on the

1:03:50 > 1:03:53back burner any more. It is not going to happen, I think there is

1:03:53 > 1:03:56unanimity on this matter in the House, and I hope this message can

1:03:56 > 1:04:00be brought back to the Foreign Secretary is saying that we

1:04:00 > 1:04:03appreciate you taking the matter seriously, but to coin a phrase, we

1:04:03 > 1:04:09are not going away, you know. With that, I asked the House to give this

1:04:09 > 1:04:15Bill a second reading.The question is that this Bill now be read a

1:04:15 > 1:04:24second time. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

1:04:24 > 1:04:28"no". The content is habit.I beg to move that this Bill be moved to the

1:04:28 > 1:04:33committee the whole house.This movie is that it be moved to the

1:04:33 > 1:04:35whole house, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

1:04:35 > 1:04:44"no". The contents have it.

1:04:53 > 1:04:59I beg to move at this Bill be read a second time. I thank you all so

1:04:59 > 1:05:04visit of signed up to read this morning. I look forward to their

1:05:04 > 1:05:09insides and news as we progress through the debate. Can I also say

1:05:09 > 1:05:14to all members inside the chamber and all those watching on the

1:05:14 > 1:05:18broadcast during the debate and beyond, that if you get involved on

1:05:18 > 1:05:27social media, using the... Who want to keep the pressure on this House

1:05:27 > 1:05:32right across social media on this issue. Can I thank all the

1:05:32 > 1:05:35organisations who've helped in preparing this Bill and indeed

1:05:35 > 1:05:39briefings for myself and for other noble lords, not least the public

1:05:39 > 1:05:45Bill office in preparation of the Bill itself. It also in particular

1:05:45 > 1:05:50the social mobility commission, Sutton trust, and the fabulous in

1:05:50 > 1:05:53turn aware started by young people, not least Ben Lyons, one of the

1:05:53 > 1:06:00founders, who at that stage in their life felt incredulous that people

1:06:00 > 1:06:08could be asked to do work for no pay in 21st-century Britain. I would

1:06:08 > 1:06:22also like to offer particular thanks to my honourable friend Alex Shell

1:06:22 > 1:06:29on this issue over several years is no mean part of how we are now able

1:06:29 > 1:06:37to bring this Bill today. So, in many ways as is often the case in

1:06:37 > 1:06:40this legislative process I am standing on the shoulders of many,

1:06:40 > 1:06:44many individuals both within Parliament and far beyond. Why do we

1:06:44 > 1:06:56need is Bill? In 2017 employment is at record levels, unemployment is

1:06:56 > 1:07:03similarly at record low levels. Good. Not so good, we are currently

1:07:03 > 1:07:09seeing a boom in unpaid internships. Asking young people and indeed

1:07:09 > 1:07:17people of all ages to work, to give of their labour than no

1:07:17 > 1:07:24remuneration. The Prime Minister has said in various speeches that we

1:07:24 > 1:07:30want to be a nation that works for everyone. I agree. But that nation

1:07:30 > 1:07:35will in no sense be working for everybody while we still have the

1:07:35 > 1:07:39perpetuation of pathways of privilege, having nothing to do with

1:07:39 > 1:07:42merit, nothing to do with talent, pathways of privilege where people

1:07:42 > 1:07:50are able to get unpaid work opportunities on the basis of being

1:07:50 > 1:07:55fortunate enough through family funding or indeed the family Black

1:07:55 > 1:08:07book. And if noble lords doubt this, research clearly shows that only 4%

1:08:07 > 1:08:13of those polled said they would be able to take on unpaid internships

1:08:13 > 1:08:22with no financial difficulties. 4%. Wilberforce slammed the door on

1:08:22 > 1:08:25slavery and the 19th century. We have a national minimum wage

1:08:25 > 1:08:31legislation in the 20th century. How can it be that in the fifth richest

1:08:31 > 1:08:34economy on the planet in the 21st century that we are still asking

1:08:34 > 1:08:39people to give of their labour for no financial return. What does the

1:08:39 > 1:08:45current law say? It says, if you have a relationship between an

1:08:45 > 1:08:54individual and the firm and clear obligations, that worker will be

1:08:54 > 1:08:58entitled to the national minimum wage. Clear. Why are we even having

1:08:58 > 1:09:04this debate? Because in fact, not so clear, not so easy necessary to

1:09:04 > 1:09:07prove that you are a worker and to get the national minimum wage. Quite

1:09:07 > 1:09:16easy in fact for businesses and employers to get around this

1:09:16 > 1:09:25legislation in a whole series of ways. And it's getting worse. Since

1:09:25 > 1:09:302010 underpaid internships are up, internships in general up 50%. More

1:09:30 > 1:09:38and more professions, trades, jobs now requiring not just a degree, not

1:09:38 > 1:09:43just a vacation scheme, but underpaid work experience to enable

1:09:43 > 1:09:47somebody to have any hope of getting that job. Time and time again

1:09:47 > 1:09:50adverts ask at least for six months waiting periods. Never mind the

1:09:50 > 1:09:55quality of the individual, the quality of the degree that they have

1:09:55 > 1:10:08ready attained. Getting worse, 50% increase since 2010. At a time when

1:10:08 > 1:10:13successive prime ministers have talked about social mobility and

1:10:13 > 1:10:20enabling talent. Further research shows that graduates report that 30%

1:10:20 > 1:10:26of them had had to do unpaid work experience with their current

1:10:26 > 1:10:33employer. A figure which rises to 50% in some professions. Half the

1:10:33 > 1:10:40people in that profession having to have done unpaid internships to get

1:10:40 > 1:10:48across the threshold. 4% say there is no financial barrier to them.

1:10:48 > 1:10:55That is 96% who clearly it is. And 40% of people have reported that

1:10:55 > 1:11:01they have sought internships and then had to turn down that

1:11:01 > 1:11:05opportunity through lack of financial means to be able to take

1:11:05 > 1:11:13it on.

1:11:13 > 1:11:20It can be summed up by these practises. If you want pay, go away

1:11:20 > 1:11:26and worse than that, some organisations representing

1:11:26 > 1:11:34businesses offer templates to offer businesses have have the route to

1:11:34 > 1:11:37the national wage legislation. As Noble Lords will be aware,

1:11:37 > 1:11:44particularly those who are noble and learned, all contracts are

1:11:44 > 1:11:48agreements but not all agreements are contracts.

1:11:48 > 1:11:55As the current law is set out, there are many, many ways to avoid an

1:11:55 > 1:12:02evade the regulations. But perhaps even more problematic, it puts all

1:12:02 > 1:12:06of the onus on the individual, on the victim, if you will, to pursue

1:12:06 > 1:12:13that claim. How likely is that, my Lords that somebody who is

1:12:13 > 1:12:19undertaking this intern ship to try and increase their social ability to

1:12:19 > 1:12:23undertake this internship to build a career for the rest of their lives?

1:12:23 > 1:12:26How likely is it that they will bring a case against that

1:12:26 > 1:12:37organisation? Possible, yes. As Sony, Harrods and others found out,

1:12:37 > 1:12:44possible, yes, but probable. And even if probable, likely to put an

1:12:44 > 1:12:53end to these practises. So to the bill itself, what am I seeking to

1:12:53 > 1:13:00achieve with this short private Private Member's Bill? Simple - a

1:13:00 > 1:13:05prohibition on all unpaid work experience and note the use work

1:13:05 > 1:13:12experience. A prohibition on all unpaid work experience exceeding

1:13:12 > 1:13:19four weeks, to bring clarity to this whole arena. I am a massive fan of

1:13:19 > 1:13:25work experience, seen not least in the Select Committee report I was

1:13:25 > 1:13:30part of, published in 2016. Work experience has a fabulous impact for

1:13:30 > 1:13:33young people to enable them to have their first experience of the

1:13:33 > 1:13:39workplace, to learn skills, to learn the rhythm, the routine of work. But

1:13:39 > 1:13:45are we honestly saying that a period beyond four weeks, unpaid, is in any

1:13:45 > 1:13:50sense acceptable? When I started the preparation of this bill, my start

1:13:50 > 1:13:55point was zero weeks. I felt if somebody was doing something of

1:13:55 > 1:14:00benefit for a business, they should receive remuneration for their

1:14:00 > 1:14:07labours. Having undertaken extensive consultation, four weeks seems to be

1:14:07 > 1:14:14a place where we can agree on across the sector. Acceptable, so as not to

1:14:14 > 1:14:21have any adverse impact on work experience, but also to put a clear

1:14:21 > 1:14:28stake in the to have clarity that post that four-week period,

1:14:28 > 1:14:32unequivocally that individual will be entitled to the national minimum

1:14:32 > 1:14:35wage and indeed, just for clarification, they are entitled to

1:14:35 > 1:14:42that pay during thal work experience period as well. If they are seen as

1:14:42 > 1:14:46an intern, if it is not clear work experience or a shadowing scheme or

1:14:46 > 1:14:51something of that nature. The bill reverses that onus. No longer on the

1:14:51 > 1:15:00individual to bring the case, but on the employer to prove that that

1:15:00 > 1:15:04individual isn't a worker rather than the reverse. It eliminates so

1:15:04 > 1:15:08many of the difficulties in terms of bringing claims and the whole

1:15:08 > 1:15:13prosecution process. And crucially it provides this clarity to

1:15:13 > 1:15:20employers, in terms of how to treat internals. The clarity is this - how

1:15:20 > 1:15:32should you treat them? Pay them. And it also gives empowerment, I

1:15:32 > 1:15:36believe, interns to talk about pay, whereas as the present time it

1:15:36 > 1:15:40cannot be raised. It's not, in my sense, within their grasp to bring

1:15:40 > 1:15:45it to bear because of the nature, the power relationship which they

1:15:45 > 1:15:51find themselves in. I think it is fair for me to consider some of the

1:15:51 > 1:15:56arguments against which have been raised.

1:15:56 > 1:16:02Small businesses perhaps believe they would not be able to afford to

1:16:02 > 1:16:07pay interns. We have a four-week p erd in the bill. Work experience -

1:16:07 > 1:16:12that person can get to know the employer, that person can get to

1:16:12 > 1:16:16know that person after four weeks. Why should not that person be paid?

1:16:16 > 1:16:22Or is that business saying, we are unable to survive without those

1:16:22 > 1:16:28labours of that young person given for free? If that is indeed the

1:16:28 > 1:16:33argument, I think we'd all draw some significant conclusions as to the

1:16:33 > 1:16:37nature of that business, both economically and ethically.

1:16:37 > 1:16:44But the real point is, it's not so much about small businesses. It's

1:16:44 > 1:16:49more about larger, more prestigious organisations who are offering some

1:16:49 > 1:16:59of these schemes. And possibly most concerning of all is that some of

1:16:59 > 1:17:02these so-called prestigious unpaid internships are seen as better, as

1:17:02 > 1:17:10more prestigious for the individual than if they'd undertaken paid work

1:17:10 > 1:17:18experience, paid internships and a different employer. So, that is the

1:17:18 > 1:17:26reasoning. That's an argument against. What about bigger

1:17:26 > 1:17:32businesses and what their view is? 66%, two-thirds say they are in

1:17:32 > 1:17:40favour of this four-week limit there are many that I could cite, but

1:17:40 > 1:17:46perhaps one at random KPMG say we have a culture that respects hard

1:17:46 > 1:17:57work. Clearly part of that respect is in remunerating that hard work.

1:17:57 > 1:18:01Some argue that this won't increase opportunities, it will simply mean

1:18:01 > 1:18:06that all of these internships will disappear. Well, if there are only

1:18:06 > 1:18:11able to survive on the basis of people working for free and only 4%

1:18:11 > 1:18:16of the population of that age say that they could take them, with 40%

1:18:16 > 1:18:20having to take them down, I don't think that is a great loss and

1:18:20 > 1:18:24certainly no drag on social mobility or advancement or economic growth

1:18:24 > 1:18:34for this country. To turn to perhaps a more interesting claim around

1:18:34 > 1:18:38volunteering. I've had a lot of reputations from volunteer

1:18:38 > 1:18:44organisations. The bill is currently drafted will have no impact on the

1:18:44 > 1:18:49great work that volunteers do for so many different organisations, in so

1:18:49 > 1:18:56many different parts of our society. But what I hope it will do is stop

1:18:56 > 1:19:00long-term unpaid internships that some chartibility organisations and

1:19:00 > 1:19:04third sector organisations undertake. Because just because the

1:19:04 > 1:19:11aim, the end of that charity may be incredibly laudable, that end is

1:19:11 > 1:19:17never justified by the means of having somebody as an unpaid intern.

1:19:17 > 1:19:22Often for many, many months, if not years, working for no pay. Quite

1:19:22 > 1:19:26separate from those who volunteer and freely give up their time to

1:19:26 > 1:19:33great charitable causes. So, it's about fairness. It's about equality.

1:19:33 > 1:19:40But even if neither of those two things float your boat, it's simply

1:19:40 > 1:19:48about talent. 4% can undertake unpaid internships

1:19:48 > 1:19:54without difficulties. Why would a business want to exclude 96% of the

1:19:54 > 1:19:59potential talent pool from that organisation? Surely any business

1:19:59 > 1:20:04would want to try and attract the brightest and the best to their

1:20:04 > 1:20:09business.

1:20:12 > 1:20:17I would ask my Noble friend, the minister, would the Government

1:20:17 > 1:20:25support this bill? If not this bill, what action will the Government take

1:20:25 > 1:20:30to end this pernicious practise. This pathway of privilege of unpaid

1:20:30 > 1:20:36internships and routes into some of the best jobs and brightest

1:20:36 > 1:20:44professions of our time? Because surely the role of Government is to

1:20:44 > 1:20:52empower. Surely if we want the best businesses, the best third sector,

1:20:52 > 1:21:00we, as a society, we as a Parliament need to state very clearly that we

1:21:00 > 1:21:06are calling time on any organisation, on any business that

1:21:06 > 1:21:16asks people to give up their time for no remuneration in return. There

1:21:16 > 1:21:24are a number of other issues alive to the bill. In no sense am I

1:21:24 > 1:21:27offering these as alternatives. I believe the Government should

1:21:27 > 1:21:31consider all these issues alongside, as well as the bill, not instead of

1:21:31 > 1:21:37and if the bill were passed, these next items which I will raise would

1:21:37 > 1:21:44need fair less Government intervention. Firstly, to massively

1:21:44 > 1:21:47increase awareness amongst employers, not just of the current

1:21:47 > 1:21:54legislation, but of the Government's view that this is no longer

1:21:54 > 1:21:57acceptable to have unpaid internships. To the higher

1:21:57 > 1:22:05education, the university sector to do much, much more to educate to

1:22:05 > 1:22:10inform graduates as to their rights. The current law states if you are a

1:22:10 > 1:22:13worker you are entitled to the national minimum wage. You should

1:22:13 > 1:22:18not feel you have to and you should not accept unpaid internships

1:22:18 > 1:22:21because even if you can, you are standing on the shoulders of others

1:22:21 > 1:22:28and holding this nation back. To the reporting and regulatory

1:22:28 > 1:22:32sector, I believe there needs to be a massive increase and widening of

1:22:32 > 1:22:37reporting in this area. Not least enabling third parties to report.

1:22:37 > 1:22:41Having HMRC looking across all of the advertising websites, newspapers

1:22:41 > 1:22:48and outlets, so many of these adverts are in plain sight - ready,

1:22:48 > 1:22:52willing, right there for HMRC to go after and put an end to. This was

1:22:52 > 1:22:57brought up in Matthew Taylor's review earlier this year, where he

1:22:57 > 1:23:04clearly highlighted that he felt HMRC powers when it came to unpaid

1:23:04 > 1:23:08internships were not satisfactory. Would my Noble Friend agree and say

1:23:08 > 1:23:12when if Government will respond to the Taylor Review and whether they

1:23:12 > 1:23:16believe whether the review, as published, went anywhere far enough?

1:23:16 > 1:23:20There's the whole question of penalties, at a time when we are

1:23:20 > 1:23:24looking to increase penalties in a series of areas, this would be seem

1:23:24 > 1:23:32pertinent to do so, in that if you fall foul of the current legislation

1:23:32 > 1:23:41you'll be compelled to pay back the salary, the wages. Merely doing what

1:23:41 > 1:23:48you should do in the first place. Would the minister look at this and

1:23:48 > 1:23:52how a dramatic increase would be appropriate, it would be a positive

1:23:52 > 1:23:58step in ending this practise. I believe as a role for business,

1:23:58 > 1:24:01small, medium and multi--ation national to -- multinational, to

1:24:01 > 1:24:06reel lie use their power, influence and state categorically in all of

1:24:06 > 1:24:13their communications that not only did they not engage unpaid interns,

1:24:13 > 1:24:17but they have no truck with the practise whatsoever. A key way they

1:24:17 > 1:24:24could do this is through procurement saying we will not procure from you

1:24:24 > 1:24:29if you used unpaid interns. I believe naming and shaming could be

1:24:29 > 1:24:33incredibly positive in this area across all sectors and my Lords,

1:24:33 > 1:24:39that naming and shaming should start right here, right now, today n this

1:24:39 > 1:24:43chamber, to Conservative members at both ends of the corridor. Labour

1:24:43 > 1:24:48members, Liberal Democrats members. Crossbenchers, Scottish

1:24:48 > 1:24:54nationalists. If you use unpaid internships you have no comment to

1:24:54 > 1:24:58make in terms of progress, merit, talent or social mobility. We have

1:24:58 > 1:25:05to lead on this. Can I ask my Nobble friend to comment on what has been

1:25:05 > 1:25:08happening in Whitehall, where there have been illustrations of how

1:25:08 > 1:25:17progress can be made when commitment is put to this matter?

1:25:17 > 1:25:24To conclude, not my words, not the words of briefing, not the words of

1:25:24 > 1:25:29ministers or previous members, but the words of perhaps the people we

1:25:29 > 1:25:37should be listening to the most on this. People who have suffered

1:25:37 > 1:25:46unpaid internships. Somebody from the broadcast sector, you can't pay

1:25:46 > 1:25:55the rent with a glowing CV. You can't buy food with exposure.

1:25:55 > 1:25:59Somebody else from television describing the practises as cruel

1:25:59 > 1:26:00and pointless.

1:26:15 > 1:26:24You do it yourself and your self-worth. That is the impact,

1:26:24 > 1:26:28many, many more are feeling the shame and embarrassment of having

1:26:28 > 1:26:32been engaged in these unpaid internships, having the feeling they

1:26:32 > 1:26:36had no choice, and Judy, not wanting to talk about that shameful episode

1:26:36 > 1:26:50in their lives. My Lords, this is about empowerment and enablement,

1:26:50 > 1:26:59fairness, equality, dignity, respect, talent. For the hundreds of

1:26:59 > 1:27:05thousands of individuals in the past who have suffered the shame of

1:27:05 > 1:27:07unpaid internships. The tens of thousands of people who currently

1:27:07 > 1:27:15find themselves in that same situation today, and for a better

1:27:15 > 1:27:19Britain for tomorrow. Let's not just get this Bill second reading, when

1:27:19 > 1:27:26the time comes, let's give it safe, swift passage into statute. My

1:27:26 > 1:27:35Lords, I beg to move.The question is that this bill be now read a

1:27:35 > 1:27:38second time.I applaud him for bringing forward this bill and for

1:27:38 > 1:27:46his brilliant speech. I draw attention to my interests on the

1:27:46 > 1:27:49register and I probably should add a personal interest that is not on the

1:27:49 > 1:27:56register. I have somewhat led the subject, since my son set up the

1:27:56 > 1:28:01campaign group In Turn Where when he was at university. He's now 27 and

1:28:01 > 1:28:05still campaigning. What's interesting is the type of

1:28:05 > 1:28:13legislation needed has become crystal clear. My interests are

1:28:13 > 1:28:20these, I advise the education charity Arc, which advises schools

1:28:20 > 1:28:23serving disadvantaged communities. I also chair a charity which trains

1:28:23 > 1:28:30and develops hundreds of school readers each year, from heads of

1:28:30 > 1:28:34departments to senior leaders, heads, executive heads and CEOs of

1:28:34 > 1:28:38multi-Academy trusts. All in challenging schools, all serving

1:28:38 > 1:28:42poorer communities, all working with disadvantaged young people. So I do

1:28:42 > 1:28:47understand why this bill is dated and how tough it really is to raise

1:28:47 > 1:28:51the aspirations of young people and many of these communities and open

1:28:51 > 1:28:55up opportunities in a proper and fair way. At times, it almost feels

1:28:55 > 1:29:02as if every time progress is made, barriers are broken, a new barrier

1:29:02 > 1:29:06is erected, to make progress with disadvantaged students more

1:29:06 > 1:29:10difficult again. The new one in the last decade or so is unpaid

1:29:10 > 1:29:13internships. About a third of graduate internships are still

1:29:13 > 1:29:20unpaid, and as we know very well, some sectors are a particularly bad,

1:29:20 > 1:29:26for example, creative industries and the media. 62% of businesses take on

1:29:26 > 1:29:29interns. Many of these are in London, Moorer in London than

1:29:29 > 1:29:34anywhere else. What does that mean if you live outside London, if you

1:29:34 > 1:29:41have no contacts or family or family friendly can help? We've all had

1:29:41 > 1:29:43briefings from the social mobility commission and the Sutton trust and

1:29:43 > 1:29:49others under it would repeat them. As a country, we need all the talent

1:29:49 > 1:29:54we can develop. What I really love about this bill as it is simple, it

1:29:54 > 1:29:58is practical, it is pragmatic. I know those are not things that are

1:29:58 > 1:30:03popular at the moment, but often the best legislation really does take

1:30:03 > 1:30:08those boxes. And what is very clear about this bill we have here today

1:30:08 > 1:30:11as it doesn't confuse a couple of weeks work experience, which all

1:30:11 > 1:30:17others in he would support, with an unpaid internship, that's all we

1:30:17 > 1:30:23have to take the action. In July 20 Theresa May said, we will build a

1:30:23 > 1:30:28better Britain, not just for the privileged few. He is a

1:30:28 > 1:30:33straightforward chance to do just that. Mrs Goram on enough. There

1:30:33 > 1:30:36have been enough reviews, enough prevarications. As the government

1:30:36 > 1:30:42were to sort this out? In this house on the 11th of March 2015, the then

1:30:42 > 1:30:50Minister Baroness Neville, in response to Lord Mitchell, who has

1:30:50 > 1:30:55been dedicated to sort this issue out for a long time, said, and I

1:30:55 > 1:30:58quote, internships are not formally defined and therefore, the

1:30:58 > 1:31:01government does not collect reliable information on a consistent basis

1:31:01 > 1:31:05that would allow the robust provision of data sorting this

1:31:05 > 1:31:09amendment. The government have undertaken research on wider issues

1:31:09 > 1:31:13that may relate to internships, such as social mobility. We need to be

1:31:13 > 1:31:21properly informed so that we can maximise flexibility and prevent

1:31:21 > 1:31:23exploitation. As part of our employment status review, the

1:31:23 > 1:31:28government are gathering information through consultation stakeholders to

1:31:28 > 1:31:31understand both the current position of groups and Labour market and

1:31:31 > 1:31:35whether future changes are appropriate. This includes

1:31:35 > 1:31:38internships and will no doubt provide useful information and data

1:31:38 > 1:31:43for future discussions. They must be more the government can do, that is

1:31:43 > 1:31:48why we have undertaken a review of employment status. As we know, that

1:31:48 > 1:31:54review has now reported. In the Taylor Review this year, Matthew

1:31:54 > 1:31:58Taylor said there have been calls for the separate status for

1:31:58 > 1:32:02internships, but we believe this is unnecessary. If someone is obtaining

1:32:02 > 1:32:06something from value from an internship, there are most likely to

1:32:06 > 1:32:16be entitled to the national minimum wage. The government should clarify

1:32:16 > 1:32:19the interpretation of the law and encourage the enforcement action

1:32:19 > 1:32:26taken by HM RC in this area. We have had the clarity and we have had the

1:32:26 > 1:32:31research and we have got the data. This has gone on long enough, there

1:32:31 > 1:32:34have been enough reviews. Now that government doesn't see clearly today

1:32:34 > 1:32:39it will sort this out, the Sun fairness, this ceiling on

1:32:39 > 1:32:43opportunity, we can only collectively draw one conclusion, it

1:32:43 > 1:32:47is all warm words. I look forward to hearing eight clear response from

1:32:47 > 1:32:56the minister today.I must refer you to my entry in the register, I am a

1:32:56 > 1:33:03member of the board of the staffing and recruitment company. I must

1:33:03 > 1:33:06congratulate Lord Holme is not just on introducing this bill, but the

1:33:06 > 1:33:11way in which he began this debate, which was a very powerful speech. A

1:33:11 > 1:33:17few months ago, I went to see a young theatre production at the

1:33:17 > 1:33:24Almeida, which was put on by young people about young people's lives.

1:33:24 > 1:33:28The big message I took away from the production was that young people

1:33:28 > 1:33:36feel that they are being lied to. It was quite shocking, but when you

1:33:36 > 1:33:39start to hear more about how they're treated in the world of work, then

1:33:39 > 1:33:47actually, I don't think we should be at all. In preparing for my

1:33:47 > 1:33:54contribution to this debate today, I spoke to a young man in his 20s. I

1:33:54 > 1:33:58know his mother, I've known him since he was born. I know his mother

1:33:58 > 1:34:02very well. Over the last two or three years, she has told me of his

1:34:02 > 1:34:09experiences in trying to find permanent work. And I thought I

1:34:09 > 1:34:15would speak to him directly and learn a bit more about this.

1:34:15 > 1:34:22Fortunately, he lives in north-east London, so he has access to some of

1:34:22 > 1:34:28these great opportunities here in London, but he is not somebody who

1:34:28 > 1:34:33comes from a privileged background at all. If I see that his early life

1:34:33 > 1:34:38was spent living with his mum in a bedsit with no central heating, you

1:34:38 > 1:34:43get the picture. He is a very creative young man, very talented,

1:34:43 > 1:34:52and when he talks about some of the experiences he has had at proper,

1:34:52 > 1:34:55well organised work experience placements, it all sounds pretty

1:34:55 > 1:35:02good. It sounds like these things have been well designed. However,

1:35:02 > 1:35:07even in big corporate is, where he has been for a week or two MP have

1:35:07 > 1:35:12promised that they will pay his travel and lunch expenses, after the

1:35:12 > 1:35:17event, they are not very forthcoming with actually paying the money,

1:35:17 > 1:35:22because when it is just £75, for some reason, it often takes a long

1:35:22 > 1:35:27time for this money to materialise, if ever a tall, and some are making

1:35:27 > 1:35:31does not feel well equipped to pursue the matter. For the last

1:35:31 > 1:35:36three years, he's been trying to get a permanent job. What he told me,

1:35:36 > 1:35:43which I found more concerning, was about things called work placements.

1:35:43 > 1:35:48These are the kind of arrangements were firms would say, no work for

1:35:48 > 1:35:51us, get some work experience, and there might be a job in it for you

1:35:51 > 1:36:02at the end of a few weeks. I asked him to send me some examples to

1:36:02 > 1:36:06illustrate the experience he had had. If you will allow, I will share

1:36:06 > 1:36:12with you some of the things he sent me. This is speaking. A number of

1:36:12 > 1:36:16placements kept reassuring me I would be paid after one month, but

1:36:16 > 1:36:20once a month was up, I was given excuses as to why I had not been

1:36:20 > 1:36:26paid yet. You hope that is, by working for a month, you will

1:36:26 > 1:36:30impress your employer is not to be paid. This is not always the case.

1:36:30 > 1:36:33Another employer offered me a full-time role with being kept

1:36:33 > 1:36:37hinting a certain position was available. I went the office one day

1:36:37 > 1:36:42and I was told I was being let go for no specific reason. I was

1:36:42 > 1:36:48thankful my work. Another placement hardly for three months. I worked

1:36:48 > 1:36:50overtime for them, including evenings and weekends. One day, they

1:36:50 > 1:36:58stopped all communication with me. Later, I contacted them, as things

1:36:58 > 1:37:04has gone quiet and I wanted future work. They never replied. This was a

1:37:04 > 1:37:11production company. This is the norm with communication. I was also let

1:37:11 > 1:37:15down before a job and started with one company. I was promised an

1:37:15 > 1:37:20induction day, followed by a week's trial in training as an officer

1:37:20 > 1:37:25Satanist. As the employer did not stay in regular contact, I e-mailed

1:37:25 > 1:37:29them the day before the induction was to begin to confirm the date,

1:37:29 > 1:37:34and I was given a reply stating the position had been filled. If I had

1:37:34 > 1:37:37contacted them, I would've turned up to my induction completely unaware

1:37:37 > 1:37:43of this. Unfortunately, nothing is given to you in writing. Most

1:37:43 > 1:37:48employers will only make verbal promises about paid work. Most of my

1:37:48 > 1:37:50internships have been very frustrating, especially when you

1:37:50 > 1:37:54work hard and prove yourself time and time again, by demonstrating

1:37:54 > 1:38:04your passion, work ethic and commitment, but to no avail. I would

1:38:04 > 1:38:08find it hard to keep going if that was we had been cheated. I said to

1:38:08 > 1:38:15him, why do you keep going? He said, I don't have much choice. You hope

1:38:15 > 1:38:21one day this will be the one, so you keep going. My Lords, our young

1:38:21 > 1:38:25people are being exploited, and it's not good enough. It's just not good

1:38:25 > 1:38:31enough. That's just one person's experience. He told me that his

1:38:31 > 1:38:35friends, who are also trying to get into various different working

1:38:35 > 1:38:39environments in different sectors, then experiencing the same thing.

1:38:39 > 1:38:43It's experience is not unique. I don't know if the bill is the right

1:38:43 > 1:38:50solution to this problem and I will listen very carefully, but what I do

1:38:50 > 1:38:55know is that the current legal and regulatory regime is not working. So

1:38:55 > 1:39:02young people feel powerless, and because of that, our young people

1:39:02 > 1:39:12are being exploited, that has got to stop. If I may just add one final

1:39:12 > 1:39:15point, yesterday, we debated intergenerational fairness. And I

1:39:15 > 1:39:18made the point that one thing that unites an older generation and the

1:39:18 > 1:39:27very young is this shared desire for honesty and clarity. And I think

1:39:27 > 1:39:32what I've learned from talking to my young friend is that you can

1:39:32 > 1:39:37understand why. And one of the points he made repeatedly to me

1:39:37 > 1:39:41about his experiences was that the age of the person that he was

1:39:41 > 1:39:46usually dealing with when he was trying to get work, was in their 30s

1:39:46 > 1:39:53or early 40s. And he felt that they had a very different attitude to her

1:39:53 > 1:40:02as, and indeed the attitude is all expressed by his parents and his

1:40:02 > 1:40:07teachers. And I think we have to bear in mind that the generation

1:40:07 > 1:40:12that came before the one that is now trying to get work, entered into the

1:40:12 > 1:40:17workplace in a boom time in the economy. Our current youngsters are

1:40:17 > 1:40:22trying to get work in much tougher situations. And I think that the gap

1:40:22 > 1:40:30in intergenerational terms, in terms of knowledge and appreciation, is

1:40:30 > 1:40:33quite stark, between this generation and the one ahead of them. Yet the

1:40:33 > 1:40:38one ahead of them is one in control of giving them work or not. I do

1:40:38 > 1:40:45think that's another thing for us to reflect on when we also think about

1:40:45 > 1:40:53wider issues.

1:40:53 > 1:40:58It is far-fetched to refer to unpaid interns as slaves. They are not

1:40:58 > 1:41:04owned by anybody. They are not tied to masters. They do what they do

1:41:04 > 1:41:09through personal choice and they can quit whenever they chose. But in one

1:41:09 > 1:41:13respect, unpaid interns do have a comparison, they receive no payments

1:41:13 > 1:41:18for their labours. It's a practise that I believe is immoral, needs to

1:41:18 > 1:41:23be stopped and it is our duty to stop it.

1:41:23 > 1:41:35That is why, just like other Noble Lords, I'm immensely grateful to

1:41:35 > 1:41:39Lord Rich nond and wish him God's speed in getting this bill through

1:41:39 > 1:41:45Parliament and I congrat Himalayas on his magnificent speech. My

1:41:45 > 1:41:47interests are pertinent to this debate and I speak with some

1:41:47 > 1:41:53experience. I chair a graduate recruitment company called Instant

1:41:53 > 1:41:59Impact limited. Previously it had been called Instant Impact Interns,

1:41:59 > 1:42:05because in the early days, back in 2011, most of our business came from

1:42:05 > 1:42:15placing interns with employers. I must stress that every intern we

1:42:15 > 1:42:26placed we paid was paid at least the mim mum wage. If we could have

1:42:26 > 1:42:29employed in-house interns without payment, but that of course was

1:42:29 > 1:42:36never entertained. With two young founders, who themselves were

1:42:36 > 1:42:38scarcely out of university, it went absolutely against the grain

1:42:38 > 1:42:43everything the company stood for and I say this, my Lords because

1:42:43 > 1:42:47yesterday I had lunch with somebody who invests in start-up companies,

1:42:47 > 1:42:53which to my absolute horror employ graduates, even MBAs and they

1:42:53 > 1:42:58receive no payment as interns. And when I expressed my shock, which he

1:42:58 > 1:43:02saw, he said to me, well, if we had to pay them, we'd go out of

1:43:02 > 1:43:08business. Well, my answer was, then go out of business. But I to say, my

1:43:08 > 1:43:14Lords and with regret, many of these start-up companies and just not

1:43:14 > 1:43:17commercial companies, charities and other organisations, don't take this

1:43:17 > 1:43:22approach. To our shame, even in your

1:43:22 > 1:43:27Lordship's House or in the Other Place, there have been unpaid

1:43:27 > 1:43:33interns a fact that is to be deplored. Many fashion houses, art

1:43:33 > 1:43:36galleries, publishing houses and advertising agencies do the same.

1:43:36 > 1:43:43Why do they do it? Because they can. Young people clamour to work in

1:43:43 > 1:43:49sexy, exciting companies and even those which if not exactly sexy have

1:43:49 > 1:43:52great prestige, like your Lordship's House, are able to take advantage of

1:43:52 > 1:44:00it. Several years ago, at a glitzy dinner for the super-rich an

1:44:00 > 1:44:04internship with a major fashion magazine was auctioned for tens of

1:44:04 > 1:44:08thousands of pounds. My Lords, I know it to be true because I was

1:44:08 > 1:44:14there. I was horrified. The reason graduates are prepared to work for

1:44:14 > 1:44:19nothing is obvious. Such are the demands for a well-crafted CV, that

1:44:19 > 1:44:25anybody who can will work for nothing. For most normal families

1:44:25 > 1:44:30who have underwritten their children through university, it becomes an

1:44:30 > 1:44:35intolerable extra burden to pay even more to support their child through

1:44:35 > 1:44:40one or more internships. As has already been mentioned, if the job

1:44:40 > 1:44:47is away from home and in a big city, the costs can be enormous. My Lords,

1:44:47 > 1:44:51unpaid internships are hugely devise sieve. It is simply not fair that

1:44:51 > 1:44:56the quality of their CV is so stacked against those whose parents

1:44:56 > 1:45:03cannot pick up the phone and get them an internship. It is equally

1:45:03 > 1:45:07unfair that underpaid internships are taken by those who are already

1:45:07 > 1:45:12privileged. If we, as a nation, are trying to encourage young people

1:45:12 > 1:45:16from less well off backgrounds to compete with those who are more

1:45:16 > 1:45:19privileged, then ensuring that interns receive a living wage will

1:45:19 > 1:45:26go some way to address this divide. I must caution the Noble Lord, Lord

1:45:26 > 1:45:30Holmes because I can anticipate what the Noble Lord, the minister will

1:45:30 > 1:45:34say by way of reply. I make this prediction, because several years

1:45:34 > 1:45:40ago, as has been mentioned, I raised this issue in your Lordship's House

1:45:40 > 1:45:44and I received an unsatisfactory reply. The minister then said that

1:45:44 > 1:45:50legislation is already on the statute book, ensuring that interns

1:45:50 > 1:45:54who work for over four weeks will get paid at least the minimum wage.

1:45:54 > 1:45:58Therefore no further legislative action was required. But I urge the

1:45:58 > 1:46:04Noble Lord not to accept this answer because the facts on the ground do

1:46:04 > 1:46:09not substantiate this claim. According to the social mobility

1:46:09 > 1:46:12commission there are 70,000 interns in the UK, with up to half of those

1:46:12 > 1:46:17working unpaid. 35,000 unpaid interns.

1:46:17 > 1:46:21It is quite clear that current legislation has not prevented this

1:46:21 > 1:46:28unsavoury practise. Therefore, my question to the Noble Lord t

1:46:28 > 1:46:35minister, is this, how many examples have there been when an employer has

1:46:35 > 1:46:39been successfully prosecuted for avoiding paying an intern? My Lords,

1:46:39 > 1:46:42this bill will not solve the problem, but it will go some way to

1:46:42 > 1:46:47create equal opportunity in the workplace and it deserves all of our

1:46:47 > 1:46:52support. My Lords, it is a privilege to speak

1:46:52 > 1:46:56on this debate today. Not least be that it is a subject I am hugely

1:46:56 > 1:47:01passionate. The aim of the bill is one I fully support, that is to

1:47:01 > 1:47:05ensure all work experience placements that go on longer than

1:47:05 > 1:47:09four weeks are paid the minimum national wage. Others have spoken

1:47:09 > 1:47:16with great conviction, in particular Lord Holmes and Lord Mitchell on the

1:47:16 > 1:47:19question of internships again, all of which I fully support. I would

1:47:19 > 1:47:22like to focus my remarks on the importance of work experience and

1:47:22 > 1:47:26the role it can play in getting young people ready for the

1:47:26 > 1:47:30workplace. Because work experience is just that. It is a taste of the

1:47:30 > 1:47:34workplace. Some understanding of what it's like to enable young

1:47:34 > 1:47:38people to make one of the hardest transitions we all ever have to make

1:47:38 > 1:47:44in our life and that is moving out of education and into work. It helps

1:47:44 > 1:47:47young people understand what careers might be right for them and what

1:47:47 > 1:47:51they can expectd when they get into work -- expect when they get into

1:47:51 > 1:47:55work. It is very obviously not a job. They are not doing something an

1:47:55 > 1:48:02employer needs to have done for no cost I should be for the employer to

1:48:02 > 1:48:05tailor a programme for participants which gives them as much exposure to

1:48:05 > 1:48:09the labour market as possible as well as some insights into that

1:48:09 > 1:48:13particular sector. One of the challenges, one of the biggest

1:48:13 > 1:48:16challenges employers face is that school leavers are simply not ready

1:48:16 > 1:48:23for work. They lack even basic soft skills like confidence, engager, pun

1:48:23 > 1:48:27chualty. That is why I am very proud to be associated with what Barclays

1:48:27 > 1:48:31are doing with their life skills programme, of which I declare an

1:48:31 > 1:48:36interest as an ambassador and as the chair of the life skill council.

1:48:36 > 1:48:43They offer young people the chance to build job hunting, CVs, covering

1:48:43 > 1:48:48letters, linked in profiles and the role of social media in improving in

1:48:48 > 1:48:52a CV to get a job. They offer challenges to help young people

1:48:52 > 1:48:57identify the skills they may have to help to sell those to the employer.

1:48:57 > 1:49:05Most vitdly, they offer a portal to help young people get access to real

1:49:05 > 1:49:07work experience opportunities, but crucially work experience that is

1:49:07 > 1:49:11relevant to them. So, they can see for themselves if the career they

1:49:11 > 1:49:17thought about is what they expect. Life skills has helped five million

1:49:17 > 1:49:23young people. It is completely free of charge. Gain valuable skills to

1:49:23 > 1:49:28be work-ready and organise work experience. Now they have even had

1:49:28 > 1:49:31to offer a virtual reality work experience to help bridge the gap.

1:49:31 > 1:49:35This is all about a video-based programme a young person can journey

1:49:35 > 1:49:42through a day of what it would be like if they were at work, meeting

1:49:42 > 1:49:46virtual colleagues and completing virtual tasks. That is because even

1:49:46 > 1:49:51though 66% of employers believe work experience was value in recruiting

1:49:51 > 1:49:55young people, only 30% actually offer it. This means it is for

1:49:55 > 1:49:59employers to do more in offering these placements to young people. It

1:49:59 > 1:50:04is in their interests to do so. So I think we need a change of mind set.

1:50:04 > 1:50:08From those who might think a work experience programmes as something

1:50:08 > 1:50:13they can exploit to get something done for nothing, to a

1:50:13 > 1:50:17community-based approach, where a business asks, what can my business

1:50:17 > 1:50:21to do to give a young person the support they need to make that

1:50:21 > 1:50:28transition to the workplace and get on the road to having a career? So,

1:50:28 > 1:50:31instead of complaining about the skills pipeline, employers should

1:50:31 > 1:50:36step up and do something about it. They should ask what they can do to

1:50:36 > 1:50:39offer more quality workplace workplaces and be ambitious and

1:50:39 > 1:50:44creative about how they do it. This is no longer about free labour,

1:50:44 > 1:50:49as this bill makes clear, it is about making a contribution to

1:50:49 > 1:50:54improving the life chances, skills and workplace readiness of a young

1:50:54 > 1:50:59person, as well as finding possible recruits for the future. Now, what

1:50:59 > 1:51:08business wouldn't be interested in that?My Lords, I would first like

1:51:08 > 1:51:12to congratulate Lord Holmes on bringing this bill and I very much

1:51:12 > 1:51:16hope that the Government will support it.

1:51:16 > 1:51:22I first want to make the point that work experience internships are of

1:51:22 > 1:51:26themselves extremely good idea, as Baroness Brady as just pointed out

1:51:26 > 1:51:30in terms of helping people to go along the road to employment. The

1:51:30 > 1:51:35problem is that very clearly if they are not paid, only those who have

1:51:35 > 1:51:42parents who can afford it can really take part. So it is socially

1:51:42 > 1:51:47divisive and unfair for internships no not to be paid.

1:51:47 > 1:51:54Work experience lasting more than a four-week period obliges thereafter

1:51:54 > 1:51:58the payment of the minimum wage. I have to say, and I will say a little

1:51:58 > 1:52:02more in a minute, I don't really agree with the four-week

1:52:02 > 1:52:05qualification period because that is still a problem, a lot of

1:52:05 > 1:52:10internships will be in London - the costs will be of the order of £1,000

1:52:10 > 1:52:17a month to people. My experience and I declare my interest on the

1:52:17 > 1:52:20register has been providing internships at Metro bank and there

1:52:20 > 1:52:26we pay people the London rate from the first day they arrive and all

1:52:26 > 1:52:33the way through their internship period. I'm also quite concerned

1:52:33 > 1:52:38that the four-week qualification period may get used to actually

1:52:38 > 1:52:43limit internships to a four-week period so as to avoid costs where

1:52:43 > 1:52:47quite often it is desirable for internships to be longer. My Lords,

1:52:47 > 1:52:52as you are aware, the legal background is that the 1999 national

1:52:52 > 1:52:59minimum wage act did not specifically provide for work

1:52:59 > 1:53:03experience internships, as they have developed and developed a

1:53:03 > 1:53:11substantially since then. Work experience usually does not meet the

1:53:11 > 1:53:16act's definition of work. The payment of where the payment and

1:53:16 > 1:53:24minimum wage is required. And it's I think extremely constructive that

1:53:24 > 1:53:32the bill does providal full definition of internship work

1:53:32 > 1:53:35experience, observing, replicating, assisting and carrying out any task

1:53:35 > 1:53:40with the aim of gaining experience of a particular workplace

1:53:40 > 1:53:45organisation, industry or work-related activity. This is a far

1:53:45 > 1:53:50wider definition than the definition of just work and it is indeed

1:53:50 > 1:53:56necessary if the 1998 act is going to be effective in requiring the

1:53:56 > 1:54:03payment of full work experience. I think internship work experience has

1:54:03 > 1:54:11become a key part of young people getting a job, especially in the

1:54:11 > 1:54:16professions, design territory and as others point out something like

1:54:16 > 1:54:1970,000 work experience internships going on every year.

1:54:19 > 1:54:28Of the order of half are unpaid. And interestingly, the order of a half

1:54:28 > 1:54:30the employers participating regard candidates without internship

1:54:30 > 1:54:40experience as having little or no chance of getting a job. So it has

1:54:40 > 1:54:45become, in many areas, necessary for employment. Clearly unpaid

1:54:45 > 1:54:48internships are socially divisive as the less well off cannot afford

1:54:48 > 1:54:58this. 40% of those considering applying for internships are put off

1:54:58 > 1:55:03by the costs and 39% turn down for reasons of not being able to afford

1:55:03 > 1:55:12them. The 1998 act does require workers to be paid, but, as I have

1:55:12 > 1:55:17just pointed out, internships don't fit its definition of a worker. To

1:55:17 > 1:55:21count as a worker the firm and individual need obligations to each

1:55:21 > 1:55:26other. For example, if there's no obligation to turn up to work, you

1:55:26 > 1:55:31are not classified as a worker. The Prime Minister recently speaking

1:55:31 > 1:55:40on the launch of the Taylor Review of Modern Working Practises stated

1:55:40 > 1:55:46correctly that employing unpaid interns as workers, sorry employing

1:55:46 > 1:55:50unpaid interns as workers to avoid paying the national minimum wage is

1:55:50 > 1:55:54illegal. But that I think misses the whole point. The need is for interns

1:55:54 > 1:55:59to be paid, whether or not they do work, whether or not they fit the

1:55:59 > 1:56:02definition of being a worker.

1:56:06 > 1:56:13It is time to treat internships as part of the Labour market and those

1:56:13 > 1:56:17doing them should be paid at least the minimum wage and preferably

1:56:17 > 1:56:21without a four-week qualification period. I think it's unlikely this

1:56:21 > 1:56:28would reduce the number of internships. E survey pointed out

1:56:28 > 1:56:33that 72% of employers, it wouldn't affect their offering or they might

1:56:33 > 1:56:40even add to their offering. I trust the government will listen to Lord

1:56:40 > 1:56:45Holmes, will listen to this debate and will address an issue which is

1:56:45 > 1:56:52otherwise unwisely socially divisive.I congratulate Lord Holmes

1:56:52 > 1:56:57on his altruism and the way he produced this bill and the

1:56:57 > 1:57:03sentiments behind it. I have to say that on this occasion, I'll going to

1:57:03 > 1:57:08yet again violently disagree with my noble friend Lord Mitchell. I am

1:57:08 > 1:57:12always having arguments with them and I will on this occasion as well.

1:57:12 > 1:57:18I want to congratulate the noble lady, Baroness Brady, of what she

1:57:18 > 1:57:21has got to the caramel of this matter, and I completely agree with

1:57:21 > 1:57:28her. This bill is extremely well-meaning, but it has deep flaws

1:57:28 > 1:57:33and as it stands, it will prevent the very things which Lord Holmes

1:57:33 > 1:57:38would like to promote. And that is a very real issue. It would actually

1:57:38 > 1:57:41discriminate against people who he wants to promote. My father died

1:57:41 > 1:57:50when I was nine, and my mother was left destitute. I only realised now

1:57:50 > 1:57:53recently when reading some of the things she wrote when I was a

1:57:53 > 1:57:58teenager, her push she was and how she managed. I went to do my first

1:57:58 > 1:58:02work experience, unpaid, of course, as somebody just at school leaving

1:58:02 > 1:58:08age underworked actually as an assistant caretaker in eight girls

1:58:08 > 1:58:12School, clearing the gym. It was a very exciting recent experience for

1:58:12 > 1:58:18me and it might well have shaped my subsequent career, I'm not certain.

1:58:18 > 1:58:21Thereafter, I spent a couple of months in a radial factory, playing

1:58:21 > 1:58:27around with electronics and that focused to aspects of my career.

1:58:27 > 1:58:35Those two jobs made me understand what it was to be any work

1:58:35 > 1:58:38environment and certainly, from talking to the man marking the pipes

1:58:38 > 1:58:43in the basement of that school, made me understand the issues regarding

1:58:43 > 1:58:47industrial diseases, which turned out to be quite important during my

1:58:47 > 1:58:51medical career. But I want to say this, to be serious for a moment,

1:58:51 > 1:58:59there are many employments in this country where work experience is

1:58:59 > 1:59:03extremely difficult to get. The NHS is a disgrace in this aspect. It is

1:59:03 > 1:59:10very difficult for young people to get into the NHS in any kind of way

1:59:10 > 1:59:16to do useful work experience. But I say do, they cannot actually then

1:59:16 > 1:59:20get the kind of submission to a university, to apply for a course,

1:59:20 > 1:59:25whether it be nursing or medicine or any of the other caring professions,

1:59:25 > 1:59:30to continue. I had in fact a letter this week from a 19-year-old who

1:59:30 > 1:59:36wants me to help her with her work experience, but I know that's not

1:59:36 > 1:59:38now being employed by the health service, it is appallingly difficult

1:59:38 > 1:59:42for me to help her get into a hospital to get any kind of

1:59:42 > 1:59:47experience. And I must say that it is important for Lord Holmes to

1:59:47 > 1:59:53recognise that if we do passage this bill, he has to understand that

1:59:53 > 1:59:58working for a month as a hospital porter or any trivial job in the

1:59:58 > 2:00:02health service, is probably going to be insufficient for most people, and

2:00:02 > 2:00:05that is something that really needs to be looked at in this

2:00:05 > 2:00:12circumstance. I would also mention my middle son. My lap at the time

2:00:12 > 2:00:16when he was just at school leaving age was undergoing a great

2:00:16 > 2:00:22difficulty with a piece of analysing equipment, which was being used to

2:00:22 > 2:00:27try and understand various proteins and also different sugars. None of

2:00:27 > 2:00:31us scientists in the lab could get this thing to work, even though we'd

2:00:31 > 2:00:35spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on it is, and because it was

2:00:35 > 2:00:40out of warranty, we just left it on the shelf. My son came in and looked

2:00:40 > 2:00:43at this machine, and having worked with the scientists for a month,

2:00:43 > 2:00:50submit found himself quite useful. He took it apart, he fiddled with

2:00:50 > 2:00:53it, and using various bits of electronic expertise, after about

2:00:53 > 2:00:58six weeks, he got this thing working so well that he ended up being a

2:00:58 > 2:01:01name on the paper that published the work, which would never have been

2:01:01 > 2:01:07published otherwise. It was his first scientific publication. I

2:01:07 > 2:01:10don't doubt that achievement was something that helped that his

2:01:10 > 2:01:14interview when he went to Cambridge, because he was able to talk about

2:01:14 > 2:01:20how he could work in the laboratory profitably. The problem was that in

2:01:20 > 2:01:23science, and it's fairly common, people who come into a laboratory

2:01:23 > 2:01:27just for four weeks, not only useless, that actually dangerous.

2:01:27 > 2:01:31They can make you work more difficult, and they can destroy

2:01:31 > 2:01:35things. It takes a lot of experience. At the moment, I have a

2:01:35 > 2:01:39place for somebody and love to see is a research assistant, but I know

2:01:39 > 2:01:44the project am involved with would take a minimum of two months

2:01:44 > 2:01:48intensive training before we could find somebody suitable, and that

2:01:48 > 2:01:52will cost us quite a lot of money and a lot of time. Of course,

2:01:52 > 2:01:59they're after, one might be able to pay such a person. Finally, one

2:01:59 > 2:02:05thing that is very close to my heart at the moment, just this week, I am

2:02:05 > 2:02:10applying for some intellectual property, which we think we will

2:02:10 > 2:02:17exploit, and I believe that with some luck, we may revolutionise one

2:02:17 > 2:02:23aspect of reproductive medicine. This work is now largely involved

2:02:23 > 2:02:30with one of my junior colleagues who works with me at the Genesis

2:02:30 > 2:02:35Research Trust at Hammersmith Hospital. She came to me as a

2:02:35 > 2:02:39student in another university, doing a scientific degree, and she came to

2:02:39 > 2:02:42me to say, I think I've made a mistake, I'm about to work in a

2:02:42 > 2:02:48research laboratory. Is it possible that you could accommodate me during

2:02:48 > 2:02:51my holiday. She worked throughout her entire holiday, for two months

2:02:51 > 2:02:55at a time in the summer and again over Christmas. Of course, she was

2:02:55 > 2:03:00unpaid. She became extraordinarily good at that and at the end of the

2:03:00 > 2:03:06time she said, I've been looking at what you've been doing and I want to

2:03:06 > 2:03:09apply the medicine. She didn't come through a privileged background. It

2:03:09 > 2:03:14took her a long time to get into medical school and having qualified

2:03:14 > 2:03:19in medicine, she got a particularly good degree. In the same year,

2:03:19 > 2:03:23having got her degree, she applied for membership of the Royal College

2:03:23 > 2:03:28of obstetricians and physicians, both extremely difficult exams. She

2:03:28 > 2:03:33got them in the same year and she has now completed a doctorate. This

2:03:33 > 2:03:40young scientists has had the most promising career ahead of. It would

2:03:40 > 2:03:44not have been possible had she not had the long-term contact in the

2:03:44 > 2:03:48lab. Eventually, we did find work for her and she was paid, but there

2:03:48 > 2:03:52was no at all that, under the rules of this particular bill, she would

2:03:52 > 2:03:57have been taken on. One of the things I want to say to Lord Holmes,

2:03:57 > 2:04:04he must understand that, if we put this bill in place as it stands, it

2:04:04 > 2:04:08will be extremely difficult, it will be more difficult, for people to

2:04:08 > 2:04:12come to the health service or to highly technical jobs, to get that

2:04:12 > 2:04:15kind of training and that experience, which is necessary to

2:04:15 > 2:04:20progress their career. At is a very damaging aspect of the bill as it

2:04:20 > 2:04:24stands, and I wait to see how he can amend it as it goes through the

2:04:24 > 2:04:32house.What an incredible privilege it is to speak in another amazing

2:04:32 > 2:04:36debate in this house. Made all the more powerful by the individual

2:04:36 > 2:04:42stories we're hearing. May I also paid tribute to Lord Holmes, not

2:04:42 > 2:04:46just by his powerful arguments today, but for his inspirational

2:04:46 > 2:04:50work, not only on the bill, but on social mobility and other related

2:04:50 > 2:04:55matters. He is a fantastic role model himself, and this chamber was

2:04:55 > 2:04:59lucky to have someone of his experience leading on this bill. As

2:04:59 > 2:05:03a result of his media performances over the past week or so, many more

2:05:03 > 2:05:09people are now aware of the issues and the bill as much support from

2:05:09 > 2:05:12many organisations and individuals, who feel they are missing out under

2:05:12 > 2:05:19the current rules. I understand the government feels this is

2:05:19 > 2:05:23unnecessary, because interns are all ready eligible for the national

2:05:23 > 2:05:28minimum wage if the qualifiers worker. But there are loopholes and

2:05:28 > 2:05:31I urge the government think very carefully about the questions raised

2:05:31 > 2:05:37in chamber today. Catherine was an unpaid intern at a charity working

2:05:37 > 2:05:42on anti-slavery and property projects. She lived in Essex, but

2:05:42 > 2:05:47the charity would only be London travel expenses, that's a London

2:05:47 > 2:05:51travel card each day. At the end of the month, Catherine was hundreds of

2:05:51 > 2:05:55pounds out of pocket. Catherine says, when I look back on it, it was

2:05:55 > 2:05:59at huge expense for me at the time. Internships are only the privileged

2:05:59 > 2:06:04people living in the capital. I don't come from a well-off family,

2:06:04 > 2:06:09my dad as a labourer and my mum works in a call centre. The

2:06:09 > 2:06:16internship definitely opened doors for me, it was my talked about in my

2:06:16 > 2:06:19current job, but the irony of working for free while working on in

2:06:19 > 2:06:23anti-slavery and poverty project was not lost on me. I have a girl

2:06:23 > 2:06:31helping me at the moment, paid by me, who is currently working as a

2:06:31 > 2:06:38paralegal in a paid internship, but she has done to completely unpaid

2:06:38 > 2:06:42and one with expenses only, and she had no idea that there was even the

2:06:42 > 2:06:46opportunity for her to be paid under the current legislation. The number

2:06:46 > 2:06:53of internships has risen dramatically, so 31% of university

2:06:53 > 2:07:00graduates working as interns do so for no pay, and the Sutton Trust

2:07:00 > 2:07:03from the big thing we've had, estimates there are at least 21

2:07:03 > 2:07:10unpaid interns working in the UK at any one time. Doctor Angus Holford

2:07:10 > 2:07:14at the University of Essex used the destination of leavers from higher

2:07:14 > 2:07:20education to study what happened to students who were underpaid interns

2:07:20 > 2:07:23six months after graduating from the first degree. The study confirms

2:07:23 > 2:07:28that graduates from better off backgrounds were more likely to be

2:07:28 > 2:07:33accepted for a good internships that promise relatively high Labour

2:07:33 > 2:07:38market return. But the increasing examples of best practice. Imperial

2:07:38 > 2:07:42College Hospital has recently changed as work experience

2:07:42 > 2:07:47programme. Medical work experience on your UCAS form is critical to

2:07:47 > 2:07:50getting an offer from the medical school. Imperial now liaise directly

2:07:50 > 2:07:55with a wide range of schools and give working experience to those

2:07:55 > 2:07:59students the schools recommend, rather than dealing with hundreds of

2:07:59 > 2:08:02parents. I believe other organisations should follow Imperial

2:08:02 > 2:08:07College's example. On average, people complete seven placements

2:08:07 > 2:08:13before getting a job, illustrating how important they have become for

2:08:13 > 2:08:16securing full-time employment, and the potentially far-reaching

2:08:16 > 2:08:20consequences for those unable to land them. Before I sit down, I

2:08:20 > 2:08:24would like to raise the related issue of years full-time social

2:08:24 > 2:08:28action, and make the point in the strongest possible terms that this

2:08:28 > 2:08:34is completely separate from unpaid work experience or internships.

2:08:34 > 2:08:38Charities utilising full-time volunteers are exempted from the

2:08:38 > 2:08:47minimum wage legislation under section 44 of the 1999 act and

2:08:47 > 2:08:49therefore under the definition of voluntary workers. So the main issue

2:08:49 > 2:08:55that this bill raises for organisations and charities that

2:08:55 > 2:08:59deploy full-time volunteers, is that it once again underlines the need

2:08:59 > 2:09:03for distinguishable legal status by those participating in youth

2:09:03 > 2:09:09full-time social action, in order to clarify how it is different from

2:09:09 > 2:09:14unpaid work experience and internships, and have better to

2:09:14 > 2:09:19support and recognise full-time volunteers. Youth full-time social

2:09:19 > 2:09:23action can change lives, and full-time volunteers deserve so much

2:09:23 > 2:09:33more than to be categorised as Neets. Modern-day slavery is

2:09:33 > 2:09:39thriving and in part funded by the rising unpaid internships. Lord

2:09:39 > 2:09:44Holmes is made powerful arguments and I hope the government will look

2:09:44 > 2:09:51carefully at the issue.I welcome this bill, I thank Lord Holmes when

2:09:51 > 2:09:56introducing it in for his powerful speech. I don't think any of us can

2:09:56 > 2:10:01doubt that the core principles must be good, preventing exploitation and

2:10:01 > 2:10:10abuse by employers, and proper pay for a job. My point, however, is to

2:10:10 > 2:10:16focus on something slightly different to those made so far. I

2:10:16 > 2:10:19embrace work placement, work experience, internships and possibly

2:10:19 > 2:10:29other descriptions. I want to draw attention to those involved and with

2:10:29 > 2:10:32special needs, particularly intellectual disabilities. I am

2:10:32 > 2:10:38referring to those who have jobs and who are possibly slow and

2:10:38 > 2:10:43inefficient, by reason of their disability, in the workplace. They

2:10:43 > 2:10:47do have special needs, and I am concerned, because, if unamended,

2:10:47 > 2:10:52this bill could or would mean that there were opportunities may

2:10:52 > 2:10:58substantially reduced. I had experience early in my career when I

2:10:58 > 2:11:05was asked if I would give work experience to the son of a friend. I

2:11:05 > 2:11:10was a junior person in my firm and I didn't know how to set about it. I

2:11:10 > 2:11:16wanted to try and help, I had no idea who to speak to, and I will

2:11:16 > 2:11:22additionally simply said I didn't think I could do it. I was unsure

2:11:22 > 2:11:28how to respond at all, and to my shame, that was the result.

2:11:32 > 2:11:38I had been living the guilty and I dedicated a desk in the office to be

2:11:38 > 2:11:42used exclusively for work experience and any of the people in the office

2:11:42 > 2:11:46who had approached us that they felt they would like to support, could

2:11:46 > 2:11:50make it available for a week or a fortnight for people to develop that

2:11:50 > 2:11:54experience. Whether it came from privilege and access, didn't really

2:11:54 > 2:11:58matter. It was not an opportunity to learn about work. It was an

2:11:58 > 2:12:04opportunity to learn about the dynamics of an office environment.

2:12:04 > 2:12:08And how people interact with each other, how people cope in the

2:12:08 > 2:12:15workplace with a bit of a crisis or just calm and that was a great

2:12:15 > 2:12:20success and many dozens of people went through that desk. I still live

2:12:20 > 2:12:24with the shame of my early decision, but I was pleased to be able to try

2:12:24 > 2:12:29and do something about it. But I'm not referring to my experience or

2:12:29 > 2:12:39examples. The, those with disabilities working for low money

2:12:39 > 2:12:44rely on employers generous of spirit.

2:12:44 > 2:12:47Those employers recognise the special needs, the special case and

2:12:47 > 2:12:51they try and help. These are likely to be long-term

2:12:51 > 2:12:58arrangements. They may be referred to as internships but they are

2:12:58 > 2:13:01really employment and they will certainly be more than four weeks.

2:13:01 > 2:13:08Perhaps full-time. Many can not work full-time, they have to do shorter

2:13:08 > 2:13:11hours, but these internships, if I can use that word, are specially

2:13:11 > 2:13:14designed to help the individuals. They are not designed to help the

2:13:14 > 2:13:19businesses. Indeed they may contribute to a very limited amount

2:13:19 > 2:13:24of the business. But these people and this is the key point, these

2:13:24 > 2:13:29people get up in the morning and they go to work. Like other people

2:13:29 > 2:13:35do. These people get up and have a job, like other people do. And at

2:13:35 > 2:13:42the end of the month these people get paid, like other people do. The

2:13:42 > 2:13:47wage does not have to be the same as for others. The national minimum

2:13:47 > 2:13:53wage may be too much for the compassionate employer who sees the

2:13:53 > 2:13:57other priorities. Indeed these interns may not be responsible with

2:13:57 > 2:14:02money. They may be looked after by their families or other care

2:14:02 > 2:14:09providers. These internships work wonders for the interns. Their

2:14:09 > 2:14:15self-esteem soars, pride in doing a job blossoms. They enjoy the

2:14:15 > 2:14:22dignity, as others do. It is not about the money. I appreciate there

2:14:22 > 2:14:25are great drafting difficulties involved in what I'm referring to,

2:14:25 > 2:14:32but we take pride in the calibre of our draft building teams. It should

2:14:32 > 2:14:37be unambiguous. We all have a common interest in getting it right. It is

2:14:37 > 2:14:44opportunity for those in need. To conclude, yes, I support the bill.

2:14:44 > 2:14:48And I do so enthusiastically. I applaud Lord Holmes for introducing

2:14:48 > 2:14:57it. Addressing this long overdue abuse by employers. But I request

2:14:57 > 2:15:00additional drafting to exempt those with special needs from the national

2:15:00 > 2:15:04minimum wage. They are a special case and they need special proof

2:15:04 > 2:15:11vision for low wages. If the choice is that or no job at

2:15:11 > 2:15:18all, surely the fulfilment and self-worth over rides. I would

2:15:18 > 2:15:24request at looking at suitable amendments later in the bill.

2:15:26 > 2:15:29I support the second reading of this bill. It is a necessary and timely

2:15:29 > 2:15:37measure and I join with others in thanking my noble Lord, Lord Holmes

2:15:37 > 2:15:42of Richmond for introducing it. I would like to connect three aspects

2:15:42 > 2:15:46- firstly, the beneficial effects and merits of the bill. Secondly,

2:15:46 > 2:15:52how certain risks associated with it. Thirdly, the wider context of

2:15:52 > 2:15:55work apprenticeships in the United Kingdom. The main provision of the

2:15:55 > 2:16:01bill strikes a good balance. Flexibility remains for unpaid work

2:16:01 > 2:16:05experience of four weeks. Yet beyond that period of time employers would

2:16:05 > 2:16:10be obliged to pay the national minimum wage to those undertaking

2:16:10 > 2:16:15work experience. In recognising what is unfair if the system, several

2:16:15 > 2:16:19recent commissions and reports have already argued for change. In the

2:16:19 > 2:16:24first place, the Low Pay Commission observes the thin dividing line

2:16:24 > 2:16:28between what is deemed to be work, already subject to the minimum wage

2:16:28 > 2:16:35and work experience, which is not. The social mobility commission

2:16:35 > 2:16:38noticed the detrimental impact of unpaid internships and particularly

2:16:38 > 2:16:44in London on those young people who are unsupported financially by their

2:16:44 > 2:16:52parents and in view to exploit work experience as unpaid labour.

2:16:52 > 2:16:59Although the majority of employers behave responsibility. To my my

2:16:59 > 2:17:04noble friends have referred. Nevertheless, there's always a risk

2:17:04 > 2:17:08once employers have to pay after four weeks they would then cut down

2:17:08 > 2:17:13on numbers previously taken on, thus disadvantaging those benefiting from

2:17:13 > 2:17:17better opportunities. However, recent assessments suggest

2:17:17 > 2:17:22otherwise, not least did we learn from that carried out by the YouGov,

2:17:22 > 2:17:27but employers are unlikely to be too much put off by this bill. 62%

2:17:27 > 2:17:33saying that they would keep up their present levels of interns, while 10%

2:17:33 > 2:17:36have alleged they would hire more. Only 10% claimed they would hire

2:17:36 > 2:17:44less. Feedback also shows 65% of employers would support a full week

2:17:44 > 2:17:49limit with only 12% against it. If this bill may not threaten existing

2:17:49 > 2:17:55numbers, clearly of prime importance is that its changings should help

2:17:55 > 2:18:02inspire, improve quality and standards as the Noble Lord Winston

2:18:02 > 2:18:10implied. And as baroness Brady has suggested. In one sense the minimum

2:18:10 > 2:18:14wage moves internships closer to apprenticeships. For what is new is

2:18:14 > 2:18:19participants in each of the two different schemes will now be paid.

2:18:19 > 2:18:24This and other elements of convergence might assist better

2:18:24 > 2:18:30organisation, direction and efish shensy. That -- efficiency. I know

2:18:30 > 2:18:35the noble minister will agree about the constant need to raise

2:18:35 > 2:18:40performance of apprenticeships and internships so they can provide to

2:18:40 > 2:18:43serve an effective transition from school work. What plan does he and

2:18:43 > 2:18:47the Government therefore have to enhance the quality of both

2:18:47 > 2:18:51internships and apprenticeship programmes to reduce their current

2:18:51 > 2:18:56dropout rates making them more valuable to youth, while attractive

2:18:56 > 2:19:02to employers? Meanwhile we can take heart to this bill, its redress of

2:19:02 > 2:19:06unfairness, its approval by employers and participants alike and

2:19:06 > 2:19:09along with apprenticeships its scope for improving opportunities for

2:19:09 > 2:19:14young people as they seek work and skills.

2:19:14 > 2:19:20My Lords, may I add my congratulations to Lord Holmes of

2:19:20 > 2:19:24Richmond on his brilliant speech and the tenacity he's shown in driving

2:19:24 > 2:19:28this campaign. This is only my second time speaking in this chamber

2:19:28 > 2:19:32and it is truly inspiring to speak up on an issue long been close to my

2:19:32 > 2:19:38heart. I declare my interest. I am a council member of the Institute of

2:19:38 > 2:19:43Directors b u I am expressing a personal view in this debate. In my

2:19:43 > 2:19:47maiden speech I spoke briefly about my background, growing up in

2:19:47 > 2:19:50Newcastle upon Tyne and coming to London 20 years ago to start my

2:19:50 > 2:19:56first job. I remember all too well the mix of fear and excitement. I'd

2:19:56 > 2:20:00gone to Cambridge university from a comprehensive in Newcastle and I had

2:20:00 > 2:20:03a fantastic time at university, so much so it was not until I started

2:20:03 > 2:20:07to think about what I might do next that I realised there was a whole

2:20:07 > 2:20:12other world out there and that was the world of contacts. My family

2:20:12 > 2:20:17didn't have a black book of contacts or at least none that worked in

2:20:17 > 2:20:21media, publishing or the arts. I didn't know anyone in London. That

2:20:21 > 2:20:27is where you were directed by careers advisers. So when we all

2:20:27 > 2:20:33left Cambridge. Genuinely kind well meaning friends told me to lodge

2:20:33 > 2:20:38with a family friend and get work experience through a contact. I was

2:20:38 > 2:20:42completely baffled, so I applied for a run of bottom rung administrative

2:20:42 > 2:20:46jobs and I was fortunate I landed a temporary role in the City on what

2:20:46 > 2:20:52was fair but low paid. It was a fair wage and it would have served me

2:20:52 > 2:20:58well if I has a friend's sofa to sleep on. After I paid my rent,

2:20:58 > 2:21:01bills and transport I was overdrawn again, month after month by the

2:21:01 > 2:21:05second day of the month. Now I am standing here today, so clearly life

2:21:05 > 2:21:10hasn't treated me too badly. I have been very fortunate and had a series

2:21:10 > 2:21:15of very fair and inspiring employers. I have never forgotten

2:21:15 > 2:21:19the anxiety and despair in my early 20s as a single woman in London

2:21:19 > 2:21:24wanting to stand on my own two feet and make my family proud. Many times

2:21:24 > 2:21:27I thought I would have to give up and go home. That would not have

2:21:27 > 2:21:34been the end of the world, I had loving supportive family. It was not

2:21:34 > 2:21:38the independent live I could believe could be mine. Mine is not a story

2:21:38 > 2:21:43of injustice. It is intended to illustrate how hard it is to go from

2:21:43 > 2:21:47a standing start. That is what horrifies me to see 20 years later

2:21:47 > 2:21:51many people don't even get a fair start. What message are we sending

2:21:51 > 2:21:55out about what sort of society we want to be? I was talking to a woman

2:21:55 > 2:22:00in her 20s recently. What depressed me was the sheer sense of

2:22:00 > 2:22:03resignation. She told me, while we were doing our degrees, and this is

2:22:03 > 2:22:07her speaking. We were encouraged to get work experience or internships

2:22:07 > 2:22:12when we finished. These were almost always unpaid. And there are

2:22:12 > 2:22:17countless stories of organisations that have people coming through in

2:22:17 > 2:22:20rolling three-month slots for no pay. She said, to be honest, people

2:22:20 > 2:22:26are so desperate to get names on their CVs often they don't push for

2:22:26 > 2:22:30pay because they know someone else more privileged will be able to do

2:22:30 > 2:22:36it for free. One of my closest friends is a teacher and she said

2:22:36 > 2:22:42many of her bright year 12s couldn't contemplate working for free in the

2:22:42 > 2:22:45future on the vague promise of something better. They are

2:22:45 > 2:22:48effectively locked out of many of the sectors that would benefit so

2:22:48 > 2:22:52much from their talent. Now I applaud the naming and shaming that

2:22:52 > 2:22:56organisations such as intern aware have done and those individuals that

2:22:56 > 2:23:00blew the whistle on these practises. But as others have said, it is hard

2:23:00 > 2:23:05to call out any bad behaviour at the very start of your career when all

2:23:05 > 2:23:08your energy goes into impressing people. Some say the law is clear

2:23:08 > 2:23:12enough on this issue and it is of course the case with many businesses

2:23:12 > 2:23:16and organisations do the right thing. But unpaid internships are an

2:23:16 > 2:23:21open secret and a fair day's work must equal a fair day's pay. I know

2:23:21 > 2:23:24the Government has looked at this issue before and having worked in

2:23:24 > 2:23:29business for much of my career, I fully understand the importance of

2:23:29 > 2:23:32ensuring we keep as flexible an environment as possible. So for me

2:23:32 > 2:23:37this bill does strike the right balance. It is proportionate and it

2:23:37 > 2:23:41will allow for ad hoc work experience for a limited period. My

2:23:41 > 2:23:45Lord's, we cannot just pay lip service, for the need to bring

2:23:45 > 2:23:50people from all backgrounds to all professions, which are the preserve

2:23:50 > 2:23:52of the already privilegeded or London-based. I talked about coming