15/12/2017

0:00:16 > 0:00:21I, Anthony Peter, do you swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful

0:00:21 > 0:00:25and bear true allegiance to her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs

0:00:25 > 0:00:37and successors, according to the law, so help me God.

0:01:23 > 0:01:27My Lords, I should like to make it brief personal statement. Yesterday,

0:01:27 > 0:01:34in response to a question asked by Lord Anderson of Swansea, I drew the

0:01:34 > 0:01:38minister's attention to the high standards of reporting and

0:01:38 > 0:01:42transparency required of the financial services industry, by the

0:01:42 > 0:01:46regulatory authorities in the Cayman Islands. In doing so, I should have

0:01:46 > 0:01:50informed the house at the close family member is a director of the

0:01:50 > 0:01:54financial services company domiciled in the Cayman Islands, and I

0:01:54 > 0:01:58apologise unreservedly for this omission. I am very grateful to the

0:01:58 > 0:02:03house by this early opportunity to correct the record.Second reading

0:02:03 > 0:02:10of the Refugees (Family Reunion) Bill.I beg to move that this Bill

0:02:10 > 0:02:16now be read a second time. Our society recognises the plight of

0:02:16 > 0:02:20refugees, and our moral obligations, as well as giving practical

0:02:20 > 0:02:25expression to our humanitarianism. Our culture recognises the

0:02:25 > 0:02:31importance of family. So do most cultures. This Bill recognises both.

0:02:31 > 0:02:36I want first to acknowledge the government's contribution by way of

0:02:36 > 0:02:40funds in the Middle East and elsewhere. Pursuing provisions in

0:02:40 > 0:02:45this Bill is not to deny the significance of this, nor that the

0:02:45 > 0:02:51UK is setting a good example, but it is not a complete answer. Many

0:02:51 > 0:02:55refugees from Syria are still in the region. The strain on a neighbouring

0:02:55 > 0:03:02countries is enormous. Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, which is about the

0:03:02 > 0:03:07size of Wales and hosts a refugee population amounting to around 30%

0:03:07 > 0:03:13of its total population. And it is not a signatory to the Refugee

0:03:13 > 0:03:18Convention. If they can do so much, we should do our bit. In 2016, the

0:03:18 > 0:03:26UK received 3% of asylum applications made in the EU. Head of

0:03:26 > 0:03:32population, the UK ranked 18th in the EU, with 0.6 applications per

0:03:32 > 0:03:36thousand people. In this same year globally, 20 people became newly

0:03:36 > 0:03:43displaced every minute every day. I know the government takes a few that

0:03:43 > 0:03:47the Bill seeks a little but is not done already, so I will take its

0:03:47 > 0:03:53clause by clause. Clause 1.1 provides that a person with refugee

0:03:53 > 0:03:57status or humanitarian protection may apply for permission for family

0:03:57 > 0:04:02members to join him. If I see him, from time to time, I generally mean

0:04:02 > 0:04:09him or her. That is the position in our current immigration rules, but

0:04:09 > 0:04:13they are rules, not primary legislation, not secondary

0:04:13 > 0:04:20legislation, not something that Parliament can amend or reject.

0:04:20 > 0:04:26Rules are an executive instrument subject to change. The first three

0:04:26 > 0:04:31of the groups listed in clause 1.2 can, under the current rules, be

0:04:31 > 0:04:35sponsored, but only by adults. The other people on the other categories

0:04:35 > 0:04:41may given leave to enter or remain in the country by discretion. I

0:04:41 > 0:04:46don't think it's unreasonable for them refugee to have the right to be

0:04:46 > 0:04:51joined by family members, and it could be said that those listed are

0:04:51 > 0:04:57distant relatives. Where there is a discretion, there are bound to be

0:04:57 > 0:05:02inconsistencies, if leaders given at all, of course, about the type of

0:05:02 > 0:05:06leave, but the length of stay granted. Family members may get

0:05:06 > 0:05:12different lengths. There may be a residency criteria for housing. Some

0:05:12 > 0:05:18noble Lords when at a meeting last week in Parliament and Harriet a

0:05:18 > 0:05:23teenager, a very mature teenager, a very tall teenagers as well, tell a

0:05:23 > 0:05:31meeting that he had reached the UK alone. His parents and siblings came

0:05:31 > 0:05:34later and separately. And eventually, they were together,

0:05:34 > 0:05:41living together, briefly. He said, they have been told they have to go

0:05:41 > 0:05:44back to Birmingham, because that is where my mum was sent to live when

0:05:44 > 0:05:48she was an asylum seeker, and because I came as a refugee child on

0:05:48 > 0:05:55my own, I have to live in Essex, so we are still not together. My

0:05:55 > 0:05:59brothers and sisters are at school in London, and my dad is working in

0:05:59 > 0:06:03a restaurant. If we had to move to Birmingham, they would miss out on

0:06:03 > 0:06:07schooling once again and my dad would lose his job and find a new

0:06:07 > 0:06:13one, which might not be easy. The reason we are still separated is

0:06:13 > 0:06:17because I could not apply for a family reunion when I came to

0:06:17 > 0:06:24England, and that is the reason I am still living on my own. Home Office

0:06:24 > 0:06:32caseworkers do have guidance, and they must consider exceptional

0:06:32 > 0:06:37circumstances or compassionate factors. The guidance tells them

0:06:37 > 0:06:40that entry clearance or the grant of leave outside the immigration rules

0:06:40 > 0:06:47is likely to be appropriate only rarely. I heard, for instance, of a

0:06:47 > 0:06:53disabled person but the carer who is a family member, who was allowed

0:06:53 > 0:06:56these. Exceptional circumstances is the term we're used to considering

0:06:56 > 0:07:02in various contexts. But often, these circumstances are in fact the

0:07:02 > 0:07:10norm in this situation. One of the people who may, and I stress, may,

0:07:10 > 0:07:13be given leave, is an unmarried child of rarely seen. The position

0:07:13 > 0:07:20of the 19-year-old daughter or son, alone in a refugee camp, without

0:07:20 > 0:07:25family support, is something that would worry any of us. At the

0:07:25 > 0:07:31meeting I referred to, we'll saw heard from a hugely impressive Young

0:07:31 > 0:07:35Ceridian. She spoke no English when she arrived, but for years on and

0:07:35 > 0:07:41very fluent, she is studying aeronautical engineering. So many of

0:07:41 > 0:07:46the young refugees I have met have been so keen to contribute to

0:07:46 > 0:07:55society. Model citizens. Her father took the initial journey by himself.

0:07:55 > 0:08:00She and her mother later joined him under the current rules. But only

0:08:00 > 0:08:05after several attempts to get visas from the embassy in Beirut,

0:08:05 > 0:08:09travelling from northern Syria. Being held up at the border,

0:08:09 > 0:08:13arriving late at the embassy, being told that as they had missed the

0:08:13 > 0:08:17appointment, they couldn't be dealt with. And that difficult and

0:08:17 > 0:08:21dangerous journey in both directions had to be repeated. She said, there

0:08:21 > 0:08:31was no respect at the Embassy. There was no respect for our papers.

0:08:31 > 0:08:35Dangerous journeys to embassies and consulates to make up your creations

0:08:35 > 0:08:38are common story. Travelling through war zones is not like catching a bus

0:08:38 > 0:08:44at the end of the road. Then the other -- then there are the

0:08:44 > 0:08:50unaccompanied children, whose situation has got the public

0:08:50 > 0:08:59imagination. I don't want to teach humanise them by using the acronym

0:08:59 > 0:09:08UASC. That is an implicit acceptance of the importance of family, though

0:09:08 > 0:09:13the need for serious and compelling considerations would make exclusion

0:09:13 > 0:09:17of the child undecidable, seems to go on the other direction and

0:09:17 > 0:09:22suggests exception allergy. But it's not an alternative to what clause

0:09:22 > 0:09:291.3 of the Bill provides. Among the other requirements, the tiles can

0:09:29 > 0:09:36and will be accommodated, in accommodation which is relative,

0:09:36 > 0:09:40usually in this situation and aunt or uncle or a sibling. Owns and

0:09:40 > 0:09:45occupies exclusively and Siebel be maintained by the relative without

0:09:45 > 0:09:52recourse to public funds.

0:09:52 > 0:09:57These are the criteria that cannot be met by the relative. The child

0:09:57 > 0:10:02must hold a valid entry clearance or leave to remain on the arrival. I

0:10:02 > 0:10:08have referred to the documentation. A fee is payable, a substantial fee.

0:10:08 > 0:10:12In a case of child asylum seekers, we're told by the government, if we

0:10:12 > 0:10:17were to allow them to sponsor parents or other family, this would

0:10:17 > 0:10:22that act as a pull factor. They would be sent here by family. So the

0:10:22 > 0:10:28family have a way in. Whether it is consistently argued this, at the

0:10:28 > 0:10:32same time arguing what the bill would do, as it is already applied.

0:10:32 > 0:10:38I would leave aside there are not push factors. What evidence is there

0:10:38 > 0:10:44for this? My noble friend, Baroness Shearman will say a lot more about

0:10:44 > 0:10:50this. Once the child has reached Europe, the UK may have more of a

0:10:50 > 0:10:57pull factor than other countries. Not invariably so. That is often

0:10:57 > 0:11:05called a perverse incentive to send a car dailly-macro child out of his

0:11:05 > 0:11:10country, and quite frankly I do not buy it. The more the situation we

0:11:10 > 0:11:15learn of France, Greece and elsewhere, we recently debated the

0:11:15 > 0:11:19situation postie Calle jungle, and found disturbing findings by the

0:11:19 > 0:11:26refugee rights stated project. The more manifest is the need for safe

0:11:26 > 0:11:30and legal routes to reduce opportunities for criminals to

0:11:30 > 0:11:39exploit and abuse. Without safe and legal routes, children are destined

0:11:39 > 0:11:46for abuse. Giving the right to a child refugee to have fetched

0:11:46 > 0:11:54dailly-macro their family join them or not the novel. The UN does so,

0:11:54 > 0:12:01but we're not a signatory. Ten years another phrase that noble Lloyds

0:12:01 > 0:12:06will be familiar, what is in the best interest of the child? A child

0:12:06 > 0:12:09whose father has been killed in Afghanistan, whose mother sent away

0:12:09 > 0:12:13for protection. A child in need of protection under the Geneva

0:12:13 > 0:12:17Convention, and it is in his interest to be joined in cared for

0:12:17 > 0:12:24by his family this noble Lords may wonder why I've not mentioned

0:12:24 > 0:12:28document three. We are concerned with the position post-Brexit. That

0:12:28 > 0:12:33is a regulation dealing with arrangements between states,

0:12:33 > 0:12:36regarding the transfer of asylum applications. A related but parallel

0:12:36 > 0:12:44issue. I have included the exception to the rights in clause one if that

0:12:44 > 0:12:50would be in the interest of national security. Applying this also to

0:12:50 > 0:12:54Klaus two, concerning British citizens with family members, who

0:12:54 > 0:12:57have protection need. The problem came to prominence just before the

0:12:57 > 0:13:03Calle jungle was broken up. A father was settled in the UK, his daughter

0:13:03 > 0:13:09was in the jungle. He could not meet the fees and income requirements of

0:13:09 > 0:13:15our family Visa rules. He, the holder of a British passport, went

0:13:15 > 0:13:21to live in the jungle to look after his daughter. Clause three allows

0:13:21 > 0:13:24for the Secretary of State to make regulations, to extend the

0:13:24 > 0:13:31definition of family member. And to find requirements for regulations

0:13:31 > 0:13:38for evidencing family membership or dependency. I have referred to

0:13:38 > 0:13:42evidencing, which is not as simple as ministers ordered during the

0:13:42 > 0:13:46passage of the legal late sentencing and punishing offenders act. During

0:13:46 > 0:13:51the bill, ministers said the amount to keep family reunion cases in

0:13:51 > 0:13:57scope would cost £5 million a year. I'll leave it to noble Lords to take

0:13:57 > 0:14:03their own view of that amount. Documents may not be available, they

0:14:03 > 0:14:06may be left behind, they may never have been provided in the country of

0:14:06 > 0:14:14origin. DNA testing would help the government, they use to fund it, but

0:14:14 > 0:14:22no longer. The chief inspector has welcomed its reinstatement. I

0:14:22 > 0:14:25mention going to the embassy and back a dangerous journey. Centres

0:14:25 > 0:14:29have been set up in France, I understand in conjunction with the

0:14:29 > 0:14:33UK, but we hear of difficulties reaching them and various practical

0:14:33 > 0:14:37problems. The last I heard was the UK had sent over a single official

0:14:37 > 0:14:43to assist. I hope that is wrong. My Lords, in everything I mentioned is

0:14:43 > 0:14:47already our law, it is not working in practice. Hard cases make bad

0:14:47 > 0:14:58law. Bad law or no law makes hard cases. The EU directive on the right

0:14:58 > 0:15:02to family rededication states in the recital that it is a necessary way

0:15:02 > 0:15:08of making family life possible. It helps to create sociocultural

0:15:08 > 0:15:11stability, facilitating the integration of third country

0:15:11 > 0:15:15nationals in the state. Which also serves to promote economic and

0:15:15 > 0:15:21social cohesion. My Lords, I agree, families belong together. I beg to

0:15:21 > 0:15:28move.The question is that this building be now read the second

0:15:28 > 0:15:34time.May I congratulate the noble lady on achieving this debate, with

0:15:34 > 0:15:39a very important private members bill. There are 65 million refugees

0:15:39 > 0:15:45in the world. One of the greatest challenges to all of us, how we

0:15:45 > 0:15:49handled the refugee situation. The majority of them are miles away no

0:15:49 > 0:15:54way near the United Kingdom. It is as well to remember even though the

0:15:54 > 0:15:58Syrians, there are about 3 million in Turkey, and Jordan and Lebanon.

0:15:58 > 0:16:03When people say to me while we worried about child refugees coming

0:16:03 > 0:16:06to Britain, such a small number compared to those in the region

0:16:06 > 0:16:14itself. If I can just digress from the subject of the bill for a

0:16:14 > 0:16:22moment. I was in Saint James Church in Piccadilly, with the vicar

0:16:22 > 0:16:27team-macro days ago, they have one for installation, lovely old church.

0:16:27 > 0:16:36From the ceiling, hanging clothes from refugees who arrived, who had

0:16:36 > 0:16:41discarded the clothes. A very powerful image indeed. Just to show

0:16:41 > 0:16:47what it means to be a refugee. One wonders what has happened to all the

0:16:47 > 0:16:52refugees whose clothes hanging up there on that installation. The

0:16:52 > 0:16:57importance of it is public opinion. I believe firmly we have two key

0:16:57 > 0:17:01public opinion on our side if we are going to do a few mainly be

0:17:01 > 0:17:07refugees. I still believe, regarding refugee children, and refugees as a

0:17:07 > 0:17:13whole. Public opinion, if informed of what is going on. If informed of

0:17:13 > 0:17:17the experiences refugees have been through, public opinion is by and

0:17:17 > 0:17:21large on our side. It is important to bear that in mind, whenever any

0:17:21 > 0:17:27of us, and I have been quite a bit involved talking about refugees, I

0:17:27 > 0:17:32say I must bear in mind that opinion has to be with us and we can be much

0:17:32 > 0:17:36more Christian, and humane and do better things. I believe on this

0:17:36 > 0:17:41issue, in the bill, public opinion is certainly on our side. All we

0:17:41 > 0:17:44have to do is explain to the public what the position is, how

0:17:44 > 0:17:50individuals are affected. The public won't all come around. I have had a

0:17:50 > 0:17:55few abusive tweets. On the whole public opinion is supported. We have

0:17:55 > 0:17:58two bear in mind, and every refugee has gone through a period of

0:17:58 > 0:18:05uncertainty. At the least, sometimes experiences have been terrible. I

0:18:05 > 0:18:09was talking to a Syrian boys some months ago. He told me his father

0:18:09 > 0:18:16had been killed virtually in front of him in either Aleppo or Damascus.

0:18:16 > 0:18:20He said he did not know whether rest his family was. Suppose where the

0:18:20 > 0:18:25rest of his family are, they have escaped from the carnage, suppose

0:18:25 > 0:18:32the rest of his family, mother and possibly siblings are somewhere in

0:18:32 > 0:18:38Greece or Turkey. Are we going to say that this bill should not apply,

0:18:38 > 0:18:40these children, the family should not come and join that one boy

0:18:40 > 0:18:48there. Of course we cannot say that it would be inhumane. It appears to

0:18:48 > 0:18:50me, save the very exceptional circumstances, that is exactly the

0:18:50 > 0:18:58position. What the noble lady's builders seeking to remedy. There

0:18:58 > 0:19:01are other certainties. If the child reaches the age of 18, there is no

0:19:01 > 0:19:06assurance they can stay in this country. That is a key issue. The

0:19:06 > 0:19:10main one for many of us is the separation from family. To be alone,

0:19:10 > 0:19:18maybe the child came from a more often avoid the girl from the only

0:19:18 > 0:19:21one who could make it in these difficult circumstances. Doing the

0:19:21 > 0:19:30terrible journey. Is in fact a boy he may take the risk. He will be

0:19:30 > 0:19:33possibly in Dunkirk, Calais, possibly Greece. Maybe he will get

0:19:33 > 0:19:39here. What is he to do if he cannot be joined by his family? Cannot

0:19:39 > 0:19:45think of anything more painful. Of course for the parody themselves --

0:19:45 > 0:19:50for the family themselves do this it is out in Greece, Turkey, Jordan,

0:19:50 > 0:19:55say we will never be able to join our son in Britain? Do they make the

0:19:55 > 0:19:59journey themselves? The perilous journey, subject to trafficking.

0:19:59 > 0:20:05Terrible dilemma to give a family. To say, well, you can stay separated

0:20:05 > 0:20:13from your child, all you can make the dangerous journey. I quote the

0:20:13 > 0:20:17Home Affairs Select Committee. They say this very clearly, and I quote,

0:20:17 > 0:20:23it seems it was perverse that children granted refugee status in

0:20:23 > 0:20:28the UK are not then allowed to bring their close family to join them in

0:20:28 > 0:20:33the same when adults would be able to do. The rights of the family

0:20:33 > 0:20:38should apply to child refugees just as it does to adults. Surely that is

0:20:38 > 0:20:41the total argument as regards children? There are other aspects.

0:20:41 > 0:20:48This seems to be the main one was that is it. That is the case. The

0:20:48 > 0:20:55government need to be able to respond to that particular case of

0:20:55 > 0:20:58the Home Affairs Select Committee. We have heard arguments about pull

0:20:58 > 0:21:04factors. There are also push factors. There may be there is the

0:21:04 > 0:21:08element of a pull factor. Not much of one. A humanitarian need to do

0:21:08 > 0:21:15something to deal with these terrible family separations. Of

0:21:15 > 0:21:20course we are told they may be exceptional circumstances. Fine if

0:21:20 > 0:21:23the exceptional circumstances can apply often enough, maybe that is

0:21:23 > 0:21:28why. It is still uncertain. Even if they apply, they don't get the

0:21:28 > 0:21:34protection they would be if people came as of right, to be united with

0:21:34 > 0:21:38their family member. Indeed the government themselves have said, as

0:21:38 > 0:21:45the old lady quoted, exceptional circumstances in these circumstances

0:21:45 > 0:21:50must be very rare. The complexity of the situation is such, that without

0:21:50 > 0:21:56legal aid, it is very difficult to make much progress. That is my mind,

0:21:56 > 0:22:03the argument, my lords. The three provisions do not cover all cases,

0:22:03 > 0:22:12only a small number only. In any case, they only apply when the child

0:22:12 > 0:22:16can join the family, not when the family can during the child. I think

0:22:16 > 0:22:20there is a very clear case in favour of this bill. A clear case,

0:22:20 > 0:22:24humanitarian case, I believe it is put to the British people they would

0:22:24 > 0:22:30support it. That is why we should support the bill.My lords, I rise

0:22:30 > 0:22:37to support this bill, and commend my local friends, for her tenacity and

0:22:37 > 0:22:42stamina in trying to improve the lot of refugees, and asylum seekers.

0:22:42 > 0:22:47This bill is just one example of the work she does in this area, and a

0:22:47 > 0:22:53great privilege to follow the noble Lord has done more than anybody in

0:22:53 > 0:22:59this House in this area. My noble friend talked about the moral

0:22:59 > 0:23:04obligations, and our humanitarianism. Call me cynical,

0:23:04 > 0:23:08but after 30 years in the police service you tend to become a bit

0:23:08 > 0:23:13cynical. For me, politics is often about the number of votes a measure

0:23:13 > 0:23:17is likely to win or lose. In terms of determining whether a government

0:23:17 > 0:23:26will support it or not. Some issues, our desire for political advantage,

0:23:26 > 0:23:29it should take second place to our moral obligations and

0:23:29 > 0:23:36humanitarianism. This is one of them. My lords, it is difficult to

0:23:36 > 0:23:41imagine the trauma of being separated from your family,

0:23:41 > 0:23:44children, or parents, for example, in any circumstances. To know they

0:23:44 > 0:23:49are still in the dangerous part of the world, where they could be

0:23:49 > 0:23:54killed or seriously injured. The ready painful separation could

0:23:54 > 0:24:00become permanent that must be even worse. Imagine having to take the

0:24:00 > 0:24:03perilous journey across the Mediterranean, across Europe.

0:24:03 > 0:24:07Eventually seeking asylum in a foreign country far from home, where

0:24:07 > 0:24:13you may be unable to communicate, where you feel hostility from a

0:24:13 > 0:24:17government who expresses the wish to make the UK a hostile place for

0:24:17 > 0:24:22illegal immigrants. And then to be given little or no hope of ever

0:24:22 > 0:24:31seeing your family again. My lords, some of us, apart from perhaps the

0:24:31 > 0:24:35noble Lords amongst us who are lawyers, would hesitate to engage in

0:24:35 > 0:24:41any form of legal process engaging a court or tribunal without legal

0:24:41 > 0:24:46representation, even in this country. Imagine being in a foreign

0:24:46 > 0:24:50country, where you have no knowledge of the country's legal processes,

0:24:50 > 0:24:54cannot speak the language, and cannot afford to employ a legal

0:24:54 > 0:24:59representative. What chance would any of us have of navigating the

0:24:59 > 0:25:07legal processes, to try to be reunited with our family

0:25:07 > 0:25:12Now imagine that all these scenarios are happening at the same time.

0:25:12 > 0:25:15Separated from your family, traumatised by the danger she fled

0:25:15 > 0:25:20from, that your family still faces, still traumatised from the perilous

0:25:20 > 0:25:24journey you've taken, arriving in a hostile foreign country and these

0:25:24 > 0:25:27are the legal process you have no understanding of and no help of

0:25:27 > 0:25:34engaging. My Lords, if that were not bad enough for an adult to cope

0:25:34 > 0:25:38with, as we have heard, unaccompanied asylum seeking

0:25:38 > 0:25:42children have no recourse to bring their parents or family members to

0:25:42 > 0:25:47join them, unless there are exceptional circumstances. And out

0:25:47 > 0:25:53of the 28 European Union countries, only Denmark and the United Kingdom

0:25:53 > 0:25:55did not allowed applications for reunification from asylum seeking

0:25:55 > 0:26:06children. Some claim -- something the home affairs select committee

0:26:06 > 0:26:09described as perverse. Talking of perversity, it is only while someone

0:26:09 > 0:26:14is a refugee that they are able to bring other family members to the

0:26:14 > 0:26:18UK, without having to have sufficiently high income to qualify,

0:26:18 > 0:26:24to bring their family members to the UK. If a refugee does everything

0:26:24 > 0:26:28this country asks of him or her and is granted British citizenship, he

0:26:28 > 0:26:34is then prohibited from bringing his spies to the UK, and lest he reaches

0:26:34 > 0:26:40the income threshold. If he were to string out his asylum application,

0:26:40 > 0:26:43he would not have to earn such a high salary in order to achieve that

0:26:43 > 0:26:51end. This Bill addresses all of these issues. It allows

0:26:51 > 0:26:54unaccompanied refugee children to sponsor their family members to join

0:26:54 > 0:26:59them, it allows former refugees the right to sponsor family members

0:26:59 > 0:27:05asylum seekers under the refugee reunion rules. It reintroduces legal

0:27:05 > 0:27:13aid for a refugee family reunion cases. What does the government,

0:27:13 > 0:27:19what are the government's objections? In the 2017 Conservative

0:27:19 > 0:27:26Party manifesto, on page 65, it topped sub out, and I quote,

0:27:26 > 0:27:30solidarity is a conservative principle, growing out of family,

0:27:30 > 0:27:33community and nation. All things Conservatives believe in and work to

0:27:33 > 0:27:40conserve. If the government truly bereaved in family, truly worked to

0:27:40 > 0:27:46conserve the family, it would support this Bill. As the noble Lord

0:27:46 > 0:27:50has said, we're not talking about large numbers here. I support this

0:27:50 > 0:27:54Bill and I would ask the whole house and the government to support it as

0:27:54 > 0:28:05well.I had the great privilege and good fortune, that when I decided to

0:28:05 > 0:28:12return to the UK, to marry my husband, he was of New Zealand

0:28:12 > 0:28:22extraction of British parents, I did not have to prove that I had an

0:28:22 > 0:28:26income, the reason I was allowed to come here was that I had spent the

0:28:26 > 0:28:31largest part of my life as a student in this country. And it was accepted

0:28:31 > 0:28:34that I could come back and live here, and therefore when I married

0:28:34 > 0:28:44my husband, he was invited to take a passport. It seems to me that

0:28:44 > 0:28:50assumptions are made about the dependence and the families of the

0:28:50 > 0:28:56immigrant, being needy, being in need of resources. They are perhaps

0:28:56 > 0:29:02worth considering in some detail. First and foremost, I would content

0:29:02 > 0:29:07that it is only the brightest and the best and the most enterprising

0:29:07 > 0:29:15who ever decide to move, because the logistics of getting oneself from A

0:29:15 > 0:29:22to B, particularly if there are concerns of family, does really

0:29:22 > 0:29:25require good tactics, good knowledge, good diplomacy, all

0:29:25 > 0:29:36levels of dealing with all kinds of officialdom across the border. Also,

0:29:36 > 0:29:41I would suggest that once such refugees arrive here, they have so

0:29:41 > 0:29:49much to give. As I said, both my brother and myself, here the USA and

0:29:49 > 0:29:56I in England, decided to stay in the countries had studied. Therefore,

0:29:56 > 0:29:59after the Iranians revolution, we were both in a position to ask our

0:29:59 > 0:30:06families to come and join us. I don't remember that the time there

0:30:06 > 0:30:09being any problem about as demanding, requiring our families.

0:30:09 > 0:30:16As it happened, one of my brothers did go to the USA, and my father

0:30:16 > 0:30:26decided to go to France. In France, my father was instrumental in

0:30:26 > 0:30:30setting up eight Law faculty in Strasbourg, which made very good

0:30:30 > 0:30:33money for the French government, because a lot of students wanted to

0:30:33 > 0:30:42go there and live there. My brother had a research institute in the USA.

0:30:42 > 0:30:48As my youngest brother who went there as a hedge fund. And the

0:30:48 > 0:30:54Yankees, who stayed in France, owns his own research unit as well. I

0:30:54 > 0:31:01would say there is a wealth of good information about immigration and

0:31:01 > 0:31:11immigrants bring, even if they go as dependents. In addition, once

0:31:11 > 0:31:18immigrants are here, the moral economy of care and dictates to all

0:31:18 > 0:31:24of us that we protect our own therefore when immigrants arrive,

0:31:24 > 0:31:33once they have any connections, beat children or relatives are distant

0:31:33 > 0:31:39relatives, we see it as our duty to care for our own. And if you go to

0:31:39 > 0:31:44somewhere like Bradford, you see how rewarding matters. Not only I think

0:31:44 > 0:31:50that immigrants have contributed considerably to the food industry in

0:31:50 > 0:31:53Britain and the palates of the British, but I also would suggest

0:31:53 > 0:32:00that they bring a whole variety of perspectives and outlooks, which are

0:32:00 > 0:32:05different. And what we need to do in this world is to celebrate

0:32:05 > 0:32:09differences. Differences are enriching, different ways of doing

0:32:09 > 0:32:15things help us to see better, to have wider dimensions. My Lords, it

0:32:15 > 0:32:22is beneficial to us all to celebrate differences. And I think that we can

0:32:22 > 0:32:29rely on the moral economy of care and to be sure that those who arrive

0:32:29 > 0:32:37to join their families would not be a burden to the economy furlong.I

0:32:37 > 0:32:42congratulate my noble friend for bringing forward this short Bill.

0:32:42 > 0:32:46There are three reasons why I stand to support higher and to support the

0:32:46 > 0:32:52Bill. The first is that I remember when I was growing up, one of the

0:32:52 > 0:32:57many senses of pride that I have in our country was that I was aware

0:32:57 > 0:33:01that people had come as refugees, particularly during and after the

0:33:01 > 0:33:09Second World War. They had been welcomed into our country, they have

0:33:09 > 0:33:12made great contributions to the country. That does all positive, but

0:33:12 > 0:33:17it was the sense that this was a welcoming country. A country that

0:33:17 > 0:33:22people from other parts of the world could look to as a place of safety,

0:33:22 > 0:33:28a place that would nourish them and care for them. And that we as a

0:33:28 > 0:33:34people were doing something good and right by providing that kind of

0:33:34 > 0:33:39national home. It seems to me that we have particularly in recent

0:33:39 > 0:33:45years, and for understandable pressures, we have changed the

0:33:45 > 0:33:50attitude. We are pulling up the drawbridge, and instead of being a

0:33:50 > 0:33:56welcoming and open place, that has a reputation for being welcoming, we

0:33:56 > 0:34:01are seen as a place that is hard to get to and that when you do arrive,

0:34:01 > 0:34:09you are no longer welcome. I don't advocate in any way, the kind of

0:34:09 > 0:34:17open doors that Angela Merkel embarked upon, Warmley, but it'll

0:34:17 > 0:34:24advisedly, because it had adverse affects in and also surveys. But I

0:34:24 > 0:34:28do feel that our country is being infected by this turning away from

0:34:28 > 0:34:33the other and turning into ourselves, and losing its reputation

0:34:33 > 0:34:37and something of its soul. And that's the first reason that I

0:34:37 > 0:34:42support this Bill, because it is the sign, it's a symbol, is an

0:34:42 > 0:34:46indication that there is a spirit in this country which is open and

0:34:46 > 0:34:53welcoming to those who need a place to come for safety. The second thing

0:34:53 > 0:34:56is the practical expedient that I have had over a number of years, of

0:34:56 > 0:35:01the splitting up of marriages, because one partner was able to live

0:35:01 > 0:35:07here, and the other could not. Of course, people have said, if they

0:35:07 > 0:35:10really want to live together, the partner who has the right to live

0:35:10 > 0:35:16here, should go elsewhere. Easily said. The most recent example, a

0:35:16 > 0:35:21bright, capable young woman, given recently a contract for a book she

0:35:21 > 0:35:25has written, by Penguin. She's a British citizen and saw her parents.

0:35:25 > 0:35:32She lives here, but she married a young man some years ago, and he

0:35:32 > 0:35:36cannot come here, for a whole series of reasons, to do with our

0:35:36 > 0:35:40regulations and rules. And so she has done that, she has gone to live

0:35:40 > 0:35:47with him. Every time she has gone, she has fallen seriously ill and

0:35:47 > 0:35:51ended up in hospital. She tried again and again, he tried again and

0:35:51 > 0:35:56again. They were unable to get access for him. And so again, she

0:35:56 > 0:36:01did the same thing. She went back out there. I just got an e-mail from

0:36:01 > 0:36:05her to say she was back in hospital and she hadn't been in touch with me

0:36:05 > 0:36:12because she nearly died last week with typhoid malaria. My Lords, the

0:36:12 > 0:36:17truth of the human stories of the splitting up of marriages and

0:36:17 > 0:36:21relationships is a serious one and it is one that we need to regard

0:36:21 > 0:36:28with due care. But the third, my Lords, and the one which moves me

0:36:28 > 0:36:36most, is a situation of the children. One of the things that I

0:36:36 > 0:36:44do is run a little group to provide supervision, advice and guidance for

0:36:44 > 0:36:47younger people, alone, increasingly everyone seems young to me, young

0:36:47 > 0:36:51people working for NGOs and the Foreign Office and other

0:36:51 > 0:36:54organisations where they are experiencing situations of conflict.

0:36:54 > 0:36:59And they are wondering how to manage and how to cope emotionally and how

0:36:59 > 0:37:04to understand the dynamics of what is happening. One of the members of

0:37:04 > 0:37:10the group you came along for a time was a young Syrian lawyer, who had

0:37:10 > 0:37:16spent much of her life working in the Middle East by the UN High

0:37:16 > 0:37:23Commission on Refugees. Of course, when the situation arose in Greece,

0:37:23 > 0:37:29the UN called upon her to see, can you come, we need everybody we can.

0:37:29 > 0:37:33She went out to Lesbos and every couple of days, I would get

0:37:33 > 0:37:37photographs and e-mails of what was happening there. But after that, the

0:37:37 > 0:37:43situation got worse. As the news got less for us, the news got worse for

0:37:43 > 0:37:48them. First of all, she was asked to come to Athens to work with Greek

0:37:48 > 0:37:53children, because there were so many refugee children no increase at the

0:37:53 > 0:37:57service is good not cope, not only with the incomers, but with Greek

0:37:57 > 0:38:05children. Everything was beginning to break down in another EU country.

0:38:05 > 0:38:09We have a responsibility to those children as EU citizens, as well as

0:38:09 > 0:38:14to those who come in. And then she began to tell me about the hundreds,

0:38:14 > 0:38:20indeed thousands of children who are on the road and two are being used

0:38:20 > 0:38:28and abused must inevitably so. It is almost impossible for them to find a

0:38:28 > 0:38:34way of surviving without ending up in the hands either of organised

0:38:34 > 0:38:40crime or disorganised crime. When I hear people saying, we don't want to

0:38:40 > 0:38:48go down this road, because it will only encourage people to come, I

0:38:48 > 0:38:51understand that concern. But the fact is, they are already coming,

0:38:51 > 0:38:56they already have come. And what we do if we do not provide the

0:38:56 > 0:39:01opportunity for them to live in a family circumstance, is make sure

0:39:01 > 0:39:07that they are built into the life of crime. We are making it impossible

0:39:07 > 0:39:13for them to draw up in normal families of their own. As a

0:39:13 > 0:39:17psychiatrist, I am not naive about families. They are not always

0:39:17 > 0:39:21perfect, but they are a lot better than the reality of the experience

0:39:21 > 0:39:26of these junk people who are already in our country and in our continent.

0:39:26 > 0:39:31And we should not allow ourselves to be pushed away from attending to

0:39:31 > 0:39:36that, with the notion that by passing a piece of legislation, we

0:39:36 > 0:39:40are opening the doors. We're not. We're setting down the rules, but we

0:39:40 > 0:39:45are trying to make sure that those children who are already here are

0:39:45 > 0:39:48not condemned to a life of crime, because it was the only way they

0:39:48 > 0:39:54could survive. That is the responsibility that this Bill is

0:39:54 > 0:40:05trying to address and that is why I give it my full support.

0:40:05 > 0:40:10I am delighted this is a debate about families, which is an apt

0:40:10 > 0:40:22topic as Christmas approaches.I am not speaking of the Nathan Dilly

0:40:22 > 0:40:29nostalgic image of the nuclear family around the table. -- I am not

0:40:29 > 0:40:34speaking about the nostalgic image. I'm speaking about family, our

0:40:34 > 0:40:38country has for so long emphasised the family as perhaps the key

0:40:38 > 0:40:46building block of society. At the present time we seek urgently, for

0:40:46 > 0:40:50social integration, society where shared values and shared culture

0:40:50 > 0:41:08find bind us all into a ethos of mutual dependency. We can only to a

0:41:08 > 0:41:15limited extent educate for this. We have two builder. We have two

0:41:15 > 0:41:19undermine the divisive ideology of individualism by growing networks at

0:41:19 > 0:41:25every level of social reality. About the most effective growing medium

0:41:25 > 0:41:32for this is the age-old one of kinship. That is the family. My

0:41:32 > 0:41:36lords, I have a particular interest in health policy, in which I speak

0:41:36 > 0:41:42for the Church of England. Time and again I see how utterly vital family

0:41:42 > 0:41:49supporters for health, both mental and physical. How loneliness, for

0:41:49 > 0:41:51instance, has certain negative impacts, which have been the focus

0:41:51 > 0:41:56of some very welcome attention during the last year. Into this

0:41:56 > 0:42:01scene comes the reality of refugees, as we have been hearing. Just as the

0:42:01 > 0:42:08holy family where refugees of the first Christmas. Not the least

0:42:08 > 0:42:13tragic of the consequences of war, persecution and civil unrest around

0:42:13 > 0:42:18the world, is the tearing apart of families. Of children from their

0:42:18 > 0:42:25parents, family groups from whom interdependence is an essential

0:42:25 > 0:42:29resource. As they strive for resilience in the face of dreadful

0:42:29 > 0:42:34events and such severe dangers. People arrive in this country and in

0:42:34 > 0:42:39Europe, perhaps coming to the attention of the UNHCR in a conflict

0:42:39 > 0:42:46region. A child may be adrift in a place where he or she is easy prey

0:42:46 > 0:42:51for traffickers. Parents may be worried sick about their child,

0:42:51 > 0:42:57whether under 18 or not. The exact configuration and mutual support

0:42:57 > 0:43:01will vary from family to family, it isn't just a matter of parents and

0:43:01 > 0:43:10their children. My lords, it is very apparent, not just in the season of

0:43:10 > 0:43:14goodwill, that British people are desperately concerned for those

0:43:14 > 0:43:20driven from their homes, and divided from their families. As we heard

0:43:20 > 0:43:28from the noble Lord. Of course, questions about pull factors, the

0:43:28 > 0:43:33possibility of the abuse of the system are valid, we all understand.

0:43:33 > 0:43:37To let them drive the direction of policy is to let the exception

0:43:37 > 0:43:44dictate the rule. And run the risk of driving desperate invulnerable

0:43:44 > 0:43:51refugees into the unscrupulous hands of criminals. Others have a greater

0:43:51 > 0:43:57grasp of the detail of all of this than I do. The barriers which we are

0:43:57 > 0:44:02currently putting up to the reunion of refugee families seem to me to be

0:44:02 > 0:44:08disproportionate to the benefits which could come from individuals,

0:44:08 > 0:44:12and for families, and for communities as we seek to strengthen

0:44:12 > 0:44:19family life. A theme, incidentally, which featured strongly in all three

0:44:19 > 0:44:25of the debates in your lordship's House yesterday on vulnerable

0:44:25 > 0:44:31children and poverty in the right to justice. If stringent checks are

0:44:31 > 0:44:35needed, let us not use that as a means of introducing friction into

0:44:35 > 0:44:40the system, and dissuading people from trying to do the right thing

0:44:40 > 0:44:47for their family. Rather, let us provide information, the support,

0:44:47 > 0:44:54and hopefully the legal aid, which will help them to navigate the

0:44:54 > 0:44:58system. Also, my lords, because every family and every situation are

0:44:58 > 0:45:04different, let us not draw the rules so tightly that truly deserving

0:45:04 > 0:45:09families are disqualified from consideration without any attention

0:45:09 > 0:45:17to natural justice. For example, it is often not fair that relatives

0:45:17 > 0:45:23under 18 at the time of application is disqualified because he or she

0:45:23 > 0:45:32reaches their 18th birthday during a long, drawn-out application process.

0:45:32 > 0:45:36Where we rightly build into our rules discretion for their

0:45:36 > 0:45:40interpretation with some flexibility to allow for special circumstances,

0:45:40 > 0:45:46perhaps we can train and support officials to use that discretion to

0:45:46 > 0:45:53make exceptions not grudgingly, but with an eye towards fairness. My

0:45:53 > 0:46:00lords, although I began with a reference to the Christmas season.

0:46:00 > 0:46:09This is not just something for the season of goodwill. It is a matter

0:46:09 > 0:46:15of our national identity. As a hospitable nation, which strongly

0:46:15 > 0:46:24believes in the values of family. This bill is a natural car really of

0:46:24 > 0:46:32those values and I supported holy.I add my voice to that noble Lord, and

0:46:32 > 0:46:36it is a pleasure to follow the right reverend, I agree with everything he

0:46:36 > 0:46:40has said and everything that has been said in support of this bill. I

0:46:40 > 0:46:44have added my name to speak not through any specialist knowledge,

0:46:44 > 0:46:49but because it is such a good cause, it is both morally right and humane

0:46:49 > 0:46:54to allow refugee families to be United. If one needed economic

0:46:54 > 0:46:59arguments, it is a case that refugee families who have the comfort and

0:46:59 > 0:47:03strength of being together a much better able to look for

0:47:03 > 0:47:06opportunities to be part of and contribute to the country which has

0:47:06 > 0:47:11given them refuge. It is humanity rather than economy which drives

0:47:11 > 0:47:15this bill. My decision to add a brief word was reinforced by having

0:47:15 > 0:47:20the privilege of attending a Parliamentary briefing to which my

0:47:20 > 0:47:27noble friend Baroness Hanham Way has referred, two Syrian refugees shared

0:47:27 > 0:47:31their experiences of traumatic journey to the United Kingdom.

0:47:31 > 0:47:36Determination to seek refuge, and a deep desire to live as a family. It

0:47:36 > 0:47:41was humbling to hear two young people who had to face terrible

0:47:41 > 0:47:45challenges, but came through ideals to speak with clarity and conviction

0:47:45 > 0:47:50about measures which would help them and others like them. As mine noble

0:47:50 > 0:47:54friend has said we used to be an open and welcoming country to those

0:47:54 > 0:47:58in need of sanctuary. We have benefited immensely from the skills

0:47:58 > 0:48:04and dedication of people who came to us in that way. Some of our current

0:48:04 > 0:48:10regulations make us less welcoming. This bill seeks to cut through the

0:48:10 > 0:48:14cost and complexity of reuniting families, and helping us once again

0:48:14 > 0:48:20to show we care about those fleeing persecution. The noble Lord has

0:48:20 > 0:48:24already quoted from the Home Affairs Select Committee. I would repeat

0:48:24 > 0:48:28what they said. The right to live safely with family should apply to

0:48:28 > 0:48:33child refugees, just as it does to adults. The changes proposed by this

0:48:33 > 0:48:38bill would only affect a small number of refugees. It would have an

0:48:38 > 0:48:43immense effect on their lives and prospects. Others have set out

0:48:43 > 0:48:48further reasons why this bill is timely and necessary. As a wealthy

0:48:48 > 0:48:53country, we have a duty to care to those who have little or nothing.

0:48:53 > 0:48:57Bringing families together is a measure we should be taking to give

0:48:57 > 0:49:01them hope and a brighter future. I do hope the government will look

0:49:01 > 0:49:06favourably on the measures here, I appreciate the bill's intentions.

0:49:06 > 0:49:10And the beneficial effect it could have on young people in great need,

0:49:10 > 0:49:17and will be able to added support. I look forward to the Ministerreply.

0:49:17 > 0:49:25My lords, I am very pleased to rise in support of my noble friend 's'

0:49:25 > 0:49:28bill. And in agreement with everything that has been said so

0:49:28 > 0:49:35far. -- my noble friend's bill. I want to support the bill on the

0:49:35 > 0:49:39basis of certain principles. Firstly continuity and can variability with

0:49:39 > 0:49:45Alec existing EU responsibilities. Secondly humanity. Thirdly

0:49:45 > 0:49:56rationality. -- continuity and compatibility. Firstly continuity

0:49:56 > 0:50:00with EU law in unbearable situations. Requiring examination

0:50:00 > 0:50:06family reunion. The free movement directive, on all our lips these

0:50:06 > 0:50:13days. Referring to the spouse, registered partner, direct

0:50:13 > 0:50:20descendants, U21, or dependent, dependent of direct relatives in the

0:50:20 > 0:50:25ascending line. This is reflected on the citizens rights provision of the

0:50:25 > 0:50:31divorce agreement. Reached last Friday, and hopefully endorsed by

0:50:31 > 0:50:39the European Council. Today, my noble friend, referred to the Dublin

0:50:39 > 0:50:44regulation, known as Dublin three, shortly to become Dublin four. A

0:50:44 > 0:50:50different situation, it is about grouping a family for the

0:50:50 > 0:51:00examination of applications. It is a parallel situation. That puts great

0:51:00 > 0:51:04stress on the best interests of the child, being a primary

0:51:04 > 0:51:10consideration. Stressing how children should not be separated on

0:51:10 > 0:51:17family members. Member states even have an obligation to trace family

0:51:17 > 0:51:25members, including siblings and other relatives. Bringing asylum

0:51:25 > 0:51:31applications together. In the other place, a Conservative member, Tim

0:51:31 > 0:51:35Lowton, sort, with cross-party support from Tim Farron and even

0:51:35 > 0:51:40keeper to persuade the government to continue if we Brexit, the essence

0:51:40 > 0:51:44of the Dublin regulation. Which, as he said, allows asylum seeking

0:51:44 > 0:51:48children to be reunited with adult siblings, grandparents, aunts and

0:51:48 > 0:51:54uncles, as well as parents. He highlighted our four children you

0:51:54 > 0:51:59lost their parents, the last vestiges of family connection were

0:51:59 > 0:52:05with siblings, aunts and uncles. The only available bit of stability and

0:52:05 > 0:52:14continuity with their previous existence in places like Syria. The

0:52:14 > 0:52:20family reunification directive, which the government did not opt

0:52:20 > 0:52:24into in 2003, also has a much wider definition than we have in the

0:52:24 > 0:52:29immigration laws of family rededication. It is noteworthy,

0:52:29 > 0:52:35although Ireland not opt in to the Director, it says enshrines the

0:52:35 > 0:52:40right for unaccompanied refugees to act as sponsors for family

0:52:40 > 0:52:44reunification in their own domestic law. My second principle is

0:52:44 > 0:52:49humanity. One are the guiding principles of the regulation of the

0:52:49 > 0:52:55Dublin regulation I mentioned, is that when the applicant is an

0:52:55 > 0:53:01unaccompanied Minor, the presence of a family member or relative in a

0:53:01 > 0:53:05member state, who can take care of him and hers should be a binding

0:53:05 > 0:53:12responsibility criteria. That is how important that is she all family

0:53:12 > 0:53:20support is taken. In assessing the best interests, the child member

0:53:20 > 0:53:25states will take into account the family rededication possibilities,

0:53:25 > 0:53:31the minor's well-being and social development. The safety and

0:53:31 > 0:53:35security, in particular, where there is a risk of the minor being a risk

0:53:35 > 0:53:39of human trafficking. It also mentions the views of a minor should

0:53:39 > 0:53:49be taken into account. The 2000 free movement directive cites as an

0:53:49 > 0:53:55inspiration to the ferry reunion qualifications, the right to freedom

0:53:55 > 0:53:59and dignity. Not just of administrative issue, they talk

0:53:59 > 0:54:04about maintaining the unity of the family in a broader sense. My noble

0:54:04 > 0:54:09friend, referring to our moral obligations, the recognition of the

0:54:09 > 0:54:15importance of family in our culture, really place dilly mecca places that

0:54:15 > 0:54:19centre stage. It has begun a cliche that politicians of a certain

0:54:19 > 0:54:26persuasion, often of the party governing invoke family values, my

0:54:26 > 0:54:29friend and Lord had excited the Conservative Party manifesto. It is

0:54:29 > 0:54:36a time

0:54:36 > 0:54:41My third principle is rationality. It makes sense, on the grounds of

0:54:41 > 0:54:47public policy, being reunited with close family is the way to ensure

0:54:47 > 0:54:51welfare and safety of child refugees and improves their chances of

0:54:51 > 0:54:58integration and recovery. Integration promotes economic and

0:54:58 > 0:55:06social cohesion, as my noble friend mentioned. The splitting up of

0:55:06 > 0:55:11families and relationships is costly for our society and our economy, if

0:55:11 > 0:55:17we are going to that level, as well as being terribly costly for the

0:55:17 > 0:55:25people concerned. There was an article in the D'Argent newspaper

0:55:25 > 0:55:32last week about a young man, a teenager from Afghanistan. His

0:55:32 > 0:55:35asylum application was initially refused, because it was not believed

0:55:35 > 0:55:40he was under the teen or he was from Afghanistan. Anyway, he won his

0:55:40 > 0:55:45appeal, but he still has no contact with his mother or two brothers. He

0:55:45 > 0:55:50is trying to get to college, but how much better he would thrive in our

0:55:50 > 0:55:59society and contribute in the way honourable members, noble Lords,

0:55:59 > 0:56:06have mentioned, as indeed the noble lady barrenness. The contribution

0:56:06 > 0:56:15and the resourcefulness that refugees contribute to ours. So

0:56:15 > 0:56:22there was updated guidance from the Home Office in 2016, but it is, as

0:56:22 > 0:56:26my noble friend mentioned, such cases of discretion will be rare,

0:56:26 > 0:56:31and without legal aid, making an application outside the rules is

0:56:31 > 0:56:42very difficult, due to the complex rules. My Lords, separation of

0:56:42 > 0:56:47families can have a devastating impact on people's lives, their

0:56:47 > 0:56:56rehabilitation and their ability to integrate and adapts to our country.

0:56:56 > 0:57:01And the bureaucratic hurdles and the report from the home affairs

0:57:01 > 0:57:04committee in the other place has already been mentioned, stresses the

0:57:04 > 0:57:13bureaucratic difficulty of the sponsorship and Visa system at the

0:57:13 > 0:57:20moment. The government should be doing all they can to help people in

0:57:20 > 0:57:24these circumstances, not hindering their chance to reach safety. It

0:57:24 > 0:57:27also recommended the government should amend the immigration bill to

0:57:27 > 0:57:32allow refugee children to act as sponsors for the close families. On

0:57:32 > 0:57:38the grounds of all those principles, but including the last one, it makes

0:57:38 > 0:57:46no sense, and it is as costly in social and economic terms for us to

0:57:46 > 0:57:49leave families divided. They will be in the best position to start a new

0:57:49 > 0:57:54life in the UK and contributes, as so many have done magnificently, if

0:57:54 > 0:58:03they have the support of their family around them.I need to

0:58:03 > 0:58:07declare an interest, as a trustee of the refugee Council, which for some

0:58:07 > 0:58:1625 years has tried to help about 1000 unaccompanied children each

0:58:16 > 0:58:22year navigate our complex processes. I pay tribute to the work that the

0:58:22 > 0:58:27noble Lord did at the Refugee Council for many years. It still

0:58:27 > 0:58:34goes from strength to strength, as indeed does he. I want to speak

0:58:34 > 0:58:39about the problem of unaccompanied children and the alleged pull

0:58:39 > 0:58:46factor. Until I joined the Refugee Council, I was not aware of the

0:58:46 > 0:58:50cruel anomaly, that unlike an adult refugee, who has the right to bring

0:58:50 > 0:58:56in close family members, a refugee child, here on his or her own, has

0:58:56 > 0:59:03no such right to be reunited. That seems to me to be both illogical and

0:59:03 > 0:59:12inhumane. It certainly, as the Baroness said, is out of line with

0:59:12 > 0:59:23European practice. Those countries who, unlike us, were not opted out,

0:59:23 > 0:59:30those countries who are applying the 2003 directive on family reunion,

0:59:30 > 0:59:33they do allow unaccompanied child refugees to bring in their families

0:59:33 > 0:59:40subsequently. As the Baroness said, we, and the Irish, who opted out, or

0:59:40 > 0:59:46rather, we didn't opt in, we are in a different position, and the Irish

0:59:46 > 0:59:51and in a different position from us, because they have the humility to

0:59:51 > 0:59:55apply the system in their own domestic law. It is written into

0:59:55 > 1:00:04Irish law. What is being suggested is that we should write it into our

1:00:04 > 1:00:07domestic law, following the Irish and the rest of the European Union.

1:00:07 > 1:00:13It is a little shaming, I think, that we are the odd man out. The

1:00:13 > 1:00:17number of people who would benefit if we corrected the anomaly is very

1:00:17 > 1:00:22small, but the benefit to each individual would be very large. Let

1:00:22 > 1:00:27me cite just one example. The Refugee Council are currently trying

1:00:27 > 1:00:33to help a 19-year-old from Eritrea, Solomon, who came here as an

1:00:33 > 1:00:37unaccompanied child, has been granted refugee status, as a job,

1:00:37 > 1:00:43goes to college and wants to bring in his 16-year-old sister, who is

1:00:43 > 1:00:48now in the refugee camp in northern Ethiopia. He has just been told that

1:00:48 > 1:00:52he cannot. He has been in the camp himself in the past and knows how

1:00:52 > 1:00:56grim the conditions there are, he knows his sister is in mortal

1:00:56 > 1:01:02danger. She is talking of trying her luck on the perilous illegal passage

1:01:02 > 1:01:07across the Sahara, across the Mediterranean. He fears she will die

1:01:07 > 1:01:13and he blames himself for failing to persuade us to save her. But it is

1:01:13 > 1:01:18we who are failing these young people. It is we who are failing to

1:01:18 > 1:01:22show the common humanity, to live up to the standards of the society we

1:01:22 > 1:01:31like to think we are. Following the second reading debate on what became

1:01:31 > 1:01:37the Immigration Act 2016, Lord Bates, for whom I have a very high

1:01:37 > 1:01:43regard, wrote to those of us taking part in the debate and asserted that

1:01:43 > 1:01:46to permit refugee children here to sponsor requests from their parents

1:01:46 > 1:01:52and siblings to join them, I caught, could result in children being

1:01:52 > 1:01:58encouraged or even forced to leave existing family units in their

1:01:58 > 1:02:02country and risk hazardous journeys to the UK, in order to act as

1:02:02 > 1:02:09sponsors. This is the pull factor theory. And with respect, it is

1:02:09 > 1:02:14totally lacking in evidential credibility or plausibility, and

1:02:14 > 1:02:20does not reflect well on the government. Mr Justice McCluskey,

1:02:20 > 1:02:23overturning in the upper chamber the refusal of the application by a

1:02:23 > 1:02:2919-year-old granted refugee status to bring his mother to join him,

1:02:29 > 1:02:35ruled that there is no evidence underlying it, it being the cool

1:02:35 > 1:02:41factor. It is inherently implausible. Families living in hand

1:02:41 > 1:02:48to mouth existence in the squalor of the refugee camp in Ethiopia,

1:02:48 > 1:02:51Eritrea, Jordan, Libya, is implausible to suggest that they sit

1:02:51 > 1:02:58down at the dinner table and make a cold calculation, coming up with the

1:02:58 > 1:03:04cunning, multi-year plan, to send one of the children through bandits

1:03:04 > 1:03:10and traffickers, across deserts and ocean, in the hope of reaching our

1:03:10 > 1:03:16lands, navigating our system and securing a right, if the Bill

1:03:16 > 1:03:21passes, to bring in the rest of the family. The world is not like that.

1:03:21 > 1:03:27This is a strange, sick, Swifty in joke, not worthy of the modest

1:03:27 > 1:03:37proposal. Parents do not send the children of. The children and adults

1:03:37 > 1:03:41are not driven by a pull factor, they are driven by a push factor.

1:03:41 > 1:03:45They are fleeing from conditions which are intolerable. They are

1:03:45 > 1:03:52fleeing for their lives. If the Minister has been briefed to warn us

1:03:52 > 1:03:57against the perils of the pull factor, in relation to unaccompanied

1:03:57 > 1:04:02children, I really hope she will not. I think she should go back to

1:04:02 > 1:04:06the Home Office and ask her officials how often they have been

1:04:06 > 1:04:10to the camps and how many of these cruel parents they have spotted in

1:04:10 > 1:04:19the camps. Plotting to force the child to come here. And she might

1:04:19 > 1:04:27ask her officials why their colleagues in all other EU capitals

1:04:27 > 1:04:32currently have not spotted these cruel, Carlos, Swifty and parents.

1:04:32 > 1:04:42And why does the UN Committee On The Rights Of The Child now urge the UK

1:04:42 > 1:04:46to review its asylum policy in order to facilitate family reunion for

1:04:46 > 1:04:52unaccompanied and separated refugee children. Why is the whole regiment

1:04:52 > 1:04:59out of step, except us? Why do we know better than everybody else? Why

1:04:59 > 1:05:09does the pull factor only apply to this Emerald Isle. The best way of

1:05:09 > 1:05:17convincing your Lordships would be for us all to see the striking new

1:05:17 > 1:05:25film Human Flow. Moving with, it captures the scale and misery of the

1:05:25 > 1:05:29human loss of current refugee crises. The despair of their broken

1:05:29 > 1:05:36societies. Against this huge canvas of human tragedy, this Bill is a

1:05:36 > 1:05:40pitifully small thing, but passing it would be the right thing, the

1:05:40 > 1:05:47decent thing to do. I support it.I thought it was rather sad that

1:05:47 > 1:05:52nobody from the side of the house was taking part. I would like

1:05:52 > 1:05:57briefly to give my support to the general principles of the Bill. I am

1:05:57 > 1:06:06so glad that the noble Lord mentioned Jonathan Swift's modest

1:06:06 > 1:06:09proposal. My Lords, if you haven't read it and you don't read anything

1:06:09 > 1:06:14else during the Christmas recess, look it up. It won't take you long

1:06:14 > 1:06:19and is the most wonderful, area guide, witty, scintillating

1:06:19 > 1:06:24indictment of nonsense that you will ever read. My Lords, I just wanted

1:06:24 > 1:06:33to contribute to this debate for three reasons. In 1945, I remember

1:06:33 > 1:06:39we had, in our own small home, a couple of Polish children, roughly

1:06:39 > 1:06:46of my own age, sex or thereabouts. They came from a camp in

1:06:46 > 1:06:50Lincolnshire, not very far from Grimsby, will be left, on 23

1:06:50 > 1:06:55separate occasions to spend the day. And my father was on the point of

1:06:55 > 1:07:01making an application to see if we could adopt at least one of them,

1:07:01 > 1:07:05when mercifully, they were reunited with their family. And the joy, I

1:07:05 > 1:07:14can still remember. And then, when I came into the other place, in 1970,

1:07:14 > 1:07:23I had not been long way when I was very proud to support Edward Heath's

1:07:23 > 1:07:30welcoming of the Ugandan Asians. And like Jewish people before the last

1:07:30 > 1:07:36war, and those who like the noble Lord came with the Kenned transport,

1:07:36 > 1:07:44that influx in enriched our society. We even have at least one of them

1:07:44 > 1:07:57among our number in the house. And then again, I remember, as chairman

1:07:57 > 1:08:03of the campaign for the release of Soviet jury, helping to welcome in

1:08:03 > 1:08:06Vienna those who got their visas to get out of the Soviet Union and the

1:08:06 > 1:08:12repressive conditions there, and come to the west. My Lords, we are

1:08:12 > 1:08:18moving towards Brexit. I acknowledge it, much as I regret it. But the one

1:08:18 > 1:08:26thing we must not move towards is an isolationist position in the

1:08:26 > 1:08:33continent of Europe. We must remain a leading nation. We are a leading

1:08:33 > 1:08:39nation with the proud history, welcoming those fleeing from

1:08:39 > 1:08:44persecution. Of course we have got to be careful as to how we fit

1:08:44 > 1:08:51people in this age of terrorism and so on. But earlier this year, when I

1:08:51 > 1:08:57was on the home affairs sub committee, before I was sacked for

1:08:57 > 1:09:02voting as I did in the Article 50 Bill, we had a group of children who

1:09:02 > 1:09:11came before us and he gave testimony to us. Any private session. My

1:09:11 > 1:09:19Lords, it was deeply moving. And this country, with its proud record

1:09:19 > 1:09:27going back centuries, welcoming the Huguenots in the 17th century and so

1:09:27 > 1:09:33on, this country has a role which it must not abandon. My Lords, the

1:09:33 > 1:09:41family unit is the building block of any society. And if we can help, to

1:09:41 > 1:09:51have some family units from those countries which are riven by famine

1:09:51 > 1:09:58and a civil war and strife, we will be living up to our proud history,

1:09:58 > 1:10:03and if this Bill helps us to do so, it deserves our full and unreserved

1:10:03 > 1:10:10support.

1:10:10 > 1:10:17Mac and mend my noble lord for bringing this Bill to the House.

1:10:17 > 1:10:19Fighting for asylum seekers and refugees coming to the UK has been

1:10:19 > 1:10:25something she has been long involving. To date we are powerful

1:10:25 > 1:10:30arguments on all sides of the house. I thank the noble Lord for his

1:10:30 > 1:10:33speech which allows me to say all sides of the house. We have heard

1:10:33 > 1:10:37had devastating it is for families to be separated from close family

1:10:37 > 1:10:43members. The desperate measures some are forced to take to escape the

1:10:43 > 1:10:54situation they find themselves in. We know this government, and my

1:10:54 > 1:10:59noble friends that the government places great store on family values.

1:10:59 > 1:11:04I hope they will give serious consideration to the measured asks

1:11:04 > 1:11:10in this bill. There are two reasons I particularly wanted to speak in

1:11:10 > 1:11:14this debate. The first one is one of the hardest things I have had to

1:11:14 > 1:11:18listen to is a mother describing having to make the choice between

1:11:18 > 1:11:23staying in a dangerous situation with young children or fleeing to

1:11:23 > 1:11:29safety with them. The price of safety was to leave behind a young

1:11:29 > 1:11:36daughter. Because our rules say as an over 18-year-old, she is adult

1:11:36 > 1:11:41and old enough to fend for herself. My Lords, I have three children all

1:11:41 > 1:11:48in their early 20s. I would utterly disagree with their ability to fend

1:11:48 > 1:11:53for themselves, even in London. The thought of a young girl on her own

1:11:53 > 1:11:57without even the protection of close family in a conflict zone is a

1:11:57 > 1:12:03chilling one. That is a choice parents are being asked to make. The

1:12:03 > 1:12:09second reason is the example of a young person from Eritrea I met in

1:12:09 > 1:12:21the Calais jungle, at this time all alone far from home. He went there

1:12:21 > 1:12:28to joke with his uncle. He and many of those in northern France were

1:12:28 > 1:12:33forced to play refugee roulette, through dangerous and illegal means.

1:12:33 > 1:12:38As the noble Lord said, we're only talking about a very small number of

1:12:38 > 1:12:44children. You are unaccompanied. Alone in northern France and other

1:12:44 > 1:12:50parts of Europe. It would not take much on our parts to fulfil our

1:12:50 > 1:12:59legal obligation, to bring 480 children to the UK. These are only

1:12:59 > 1:13:07two stories. We have heard a few others, all stories of suffering

1:13:07 > 1:13:11that are quite frankly avoidable, and that a small cost to ourselves,

1:13:11 > 1:13:17we could remedy this situation. I don't know exactly what the noble

1:13:17 > 1:13:22lady, the minister was saying, in response to the government. In the

1:13:22 > 1:13:31past, all to often, they have said, and the noble Lord Lord Kerr has

1:13:31 > 1:13:45taken on board the arguments about why they do not give evidence to the

1:13:45 > 1:13:50government the contractors. The assertion it is the easing family

1:13:50 > 1:13:55reunification which will create those factors. Secondly, too often

1:13:55 > 1:14:02the government has said in response to debates on the issues. Those

1:14:02 > 1:14:08factors will encourage more smugglers to operate. Let me first

1:14:08 > 1:14:14addressed the pull factors. Quite frankly this is a figleaf. There is

1:14:14 > 1:14:19not a single shred of evidence for this. I have evidence from my

1:14:19 > 1:14:26position. I would like to hear the evidence from the government for

1:14:26 > 1:14:34theirs. My Lords there is ample correlation between push factors

1:14:34 > 1:14:38such as complex, hateful regimes and famine forcing people to do the

1:14:38 > 1:14:44unthinkable, leaving their homes, communities, with only what they can

1:14:44 > 1:14:48carry. Alexander Betts, head of the refugee studies Centre at the

1:14:48 > 1:14:54University of Oxford says in a new scientist article in September 20

1:14:54 > 1:14:5715th no existing sound research substantiates the political claim

1:14:57 > 1:15:03that giving people asylum in Europe stimulates more flow. In an e-mail

1:15:03 > 1:15:09to me, Professor Ian Golding, head of the Oxford Martin School on

1:15:09 > 1:15:12global challenges says there is no credible evidence for the

1:15:12 > 1:15:18government's claim on pull factors. The simplest argument is that the

1:15:18 > 1:15:22pull factors have not changed, and yet the refugee numbers have

1:15:22 > 1:15:27increased dramatically. The pull factors that are cited for the UK,

1:15:27 > 1:15:33such as higher wages, attraction to the Social Security benefits are

1:15:33 > 1:15:36relatively unchanged over many years. Yet the refugee numbers

1:15:36 > 1:15:41change dramatically. And can be shown to be directly related to the

1:15:41 > 1:15:51push factors. Notably complex in Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

1:15:51 > 1:15:55Can I cite from the Council of Europe report, the fact finder Kiwic

1:15:55 > 1:16:06L commission on migrants in Calais. By the ambassador he says I was told

1:16:06 > 1:16:09by the authorities there was a reluctance to improve conditions,

1:16:09 > 1:16:14because of concerns this would act as a pull factor. Leading more

1:16:14 > 1:16:17migrants to make their way to Calais. It seems clear to me that

1:16:17 > 1:16:23the poor conditions have not acted as a deterrent so far. It raises

1:16:23 > 1:16:32potential issues, and about degrading treatment, and article

1:16:32 > 1:16:35eight, right to respect for family life for the European Convention on

1:16:35 > 1:16:45Human Rights. My Lords, the home affairs subcommittee in its report

1:16:45 > 1:16:51last July, on unaccompanied migrant children, chaired by the Baroness,

1:16:51 > 1:16:56said we receive no evidence of families sending children as anchors

1:16:56 > 1:17:01following the fermentation of the family reunification directive,

1:17:01 > 1:17:08directed by other member states. We were also told that in some cases

1:17:08 > 1:17:15unaccompanied children in the UK declined to take advantage of

1:17:15 > 1:17:18tracing and the reunification procedures, even when these were

1:17:18 > 1:17:24offered. Kent County Council wrote that the Red Cross is used to trace

1:17:24 > 1:17:30family living abroad, although our experience is that there is limited

1:17:30 > 1:17:35take-up of this service from young people. This is not surprising as

1:17:35 > 1:17:39many unaccompanied migrant children fear attempts to trace family

1:17:39 > 1:17:42members living in their countries of origin could put those family

1:17:42 > 1:17:51members in danger. There you have it, my lord. Pull factors, whether

1:17:51 > 1:17:54through improving humanitarian conditions, or easing Family Reunion

1:17:54 > 1:18:00rules, will not cause people to pack up their lives in a backpack, and

1:18:00 > 1:18:03risk an extremely hazardous journey, to come to the UK. To do that, they

1:18:03 > 1:18:12have to be pushed and pushed hard. This was a quick mention on

1:18:12 > 1:18:17smugglers. Do the rules currently existing keep refugees out of the

1:18:17 > 1:18:21clutches of ruthless people smugglers? The government is correct

1:18:21 > 1:18:28in saying smugglers are real to refugees. In fact, even authorities

1:18:28 > 1:18:33in Europe, with all their many resources, cannot deal with the

1:18:33 > 1:18:38smugglers, currently operating in Europe. Valuable refugees fear them

1:18:38 > 1:18:44even more. The fact of the matter is, the fewer safe and legal routes

1:18:44 > 1:18:52there are to process asylum seekers, the more power the smugglers have.

1:18:52 > 1:18:56The human trafficking foundation's independent enquiry in July of this

1:18:56 > 1:19:04year, co-chaired by Fiona McTaggart, and Baroness Butler-Sloss found no

1:19:04 > 1:19:09evidence whatsoever that by creating a safe and legal route to safety in

1:19:09 > 1:19:17the UK, you create a pull factor, for traffickers targeting vulnerable

1:19:17 > 1:19:21children in fact, it found the opposite. By closing off such

1:19:21 > 1:19:28routes, it feeds the trafficking and smuggling networks. The prices to

1:19:28 > 1:19:33get to the UK illegally go up forcing children into situations

1:19:33 > 1:19:39when they are exposed to exploitation, sexual, or criminal,

1:19:39 > 1:19:45or labour. Or maybe a combination of all three. The simple truth coming

1:19:45 > 1:19:51out of the enquiry, instead of protecting children who have fled to

1:19:51 > 1:19:55Europe for safety. The government is failing them, leaving the way open

1:19:55 > 1:20:01for smugglers and traffickers to exploit them. My Lords, as a number

1:20:01 > 1:20:05of noble Lords in the House have said, it comes down to what kind of

1:20:05 > 1:20:12Britain do we want to live in. An open and welcoming country, those

1:20:12 > 1:20:21seeking sanctuary, or a close one. It is time to stop flouting our

1:20:21 > 1:20:25duties, to some of the most unfortunate people on the planet.

1:20:25 > 1:20:29And step up to the mark as decent human beings. Pulling our weight on

1:20:29 > 1:20:42the international stage.My Lords I congratulate the noble lady,

1:20:42 > 1:20:49Baroness Hanham Way on her bill. The purpose of which, to provide lead,

1:20:49 > 1:20:53or remained in the United Kingdom, for the family members of refugees.

1:20:53 > 1:20:56And to refugees you are family members of British citizens. In her

1:20:56 > 1:21:02opening speech, the noble lady, Baroness Hanham Way explained the

1:21:02 > 1:21:07purpose behind the provisions of the Bill, including the extension of the

1:21:07 > 1:21:12list of eligible family members who can be sponsored in an application.

1:21:12 > 1:21:16Humanitarian status of protection. The bill also provides for the

1:21:16 > 1:21:21reinstatement for the provision of legal aid, in respect to Family

1:21:21 > 1:21:27Reunion cases, which can be complex, and the process itself, lengthy. The

1:21:27 > 1:21:32current position under our immigration rules, individuals

1:21:32 > 1:21:36making an asylum application may only include in that application a

1:21:36 > 1:21:39spouse or partner, married partner or children under the age of 18.

1:21:39 > 1:21:42With the pendant is being granted leave to enter or remain in the UK

1:21:42 > 1:21:48for the same generation as a sponsor if the printable application is

1:21:48 > 1:21:53granted. Child asylum seekers in this country are not legal to

1:21:53 > 1:22:04sponsored Jilly Macca -- sponsor carer or parent to join. The

1:22:04 > 1:22:10significant impact this could have, and addressing the issue of

1:22:10 > 1:22:13vulnerability of unaccompanied children. The exploitation many of

1:22:13 > 1:22:18them experience. 18 months ago, the House of Commons home affairs

1:22:18 > 1:22:21committee issued a report which amongst other things called on the

1:22:21 > 1:22:27government to amend immigration laws allow refugees to act as sponsors

1:22:27 > 1:22:33for close family. The committee argued, as my noble friend Lord Dubs

1:22:33 > 1:22:39said, it was the first children granted refugee status in UK are not

1:22:39 > 1:22:43allowed to bring close family to join them. The same when adult would

1:22:43 > 1:22:48be able to do. The right to live safely with family should apply to

1:22:48 > 1:22:56refugees as it does to adults. Ship that the are are family reunion

1:22:56 > 1:22:59policy met our international obligations. Saying there was

1:22:59 > 1:23:04permission to grant a visa, which could be used in respect of extended

1:23:04 > 1:23:08family members. Including parents and children, recognised as refugees

1:23:08 > 1:23:15here in exceptional circumstances. However we are one of only two EU

1:23:15 > 1:23:19countries who have even adopted, or opted into the EU directive on

1:23:19 > 1:23:25Family Reunion, which sets out unaccompanied child refugees are

1:23:25 > 1:23:29entitled to be reunited with family members. Or alternatively providing

1:23:29 > 1:23:36for this in domestic law. Could the noble lady or the minister, when she

1:23:36 > 1:23:40responds to provide information on the number of visas granted outside

1:23:40 > 1:23:45of the rules in exceptional circumstances since July 2016 when

1:23:45 > 1:23:53updated guidance was published. And the number of which were, in respect

1:23:53 > 1:23:56of children and refugees recognised here. Could the noble lady or the

1:23:56 > 1:24:06Minister provide this guidance outside the rules in exceptional

1:24:06 > 1:24:10circumstances, and how the terms differ, in respect to relatives

1:24:10 > 1:24:16joining in the UK relative to the applicable rules. I hope the

1:24:16 > 1:24:19government will feel able to give a supportive response to this bill.

1:24:19 > 1:24:25Even know that would be contrary to their approach to date. If the

1:24:25 > 1:24:29government do not intend to be helpful, and I'm conscious in the

1:24:29 > 1:24:34way they failed to deliver on the spirit of the Dubs Amendment. The

1:24:34 > 1:24:38least they can do is allow the reasons in some detail, and the hard

1:24:38 > 1:24:42evidence to support those reasons. Bearing in mind the devastating

1:24:42 > 1:24:47impact both short and long term, about which we heard to date, that

1:24:47 > 1:24:50family separation can have on those affected. Not least on children and

1:24:50 > 1:24:56young people.

1:24:56 > 1:24:59What impact on the net migration figures does the Government think

1:24:59 > 1:25:04that this bill would have? What is their hard evidence to support this

1:25:04 > 1:25:09conclusion. I asked that in the context that the figure has fallen

1:25:09 > 1:25:13remarkably recently, following the decision to withdraw from the

1:25:13 > 1:25:17European Union and the hostile climates that that provoked. Also,

1:25:17 > 1:25:22in the context that the Government does not apply existing EU rules, as

1:25:22 > 1:25:29firmly as its code within those rules. As some other EU countries

1:25:29 > 1:25:34do. Indeed, the Government does not even know what the impact is on the

1:25:34 > 1:25:38net migration figures is not applying these EU rules as firmly as

1:25:38 > 1:25:43it could. I also asked the question in the context that we have only

1:25:43 > 1:25:48found out recently that the Government, to put it politely, have

1:25:48 > 1:25:56been working and Amis apprehends Asian on the numbers -- working on a

1:25:56 > 1:25:59misapprehension about the numbers of students who stay on after studying.

1:25:59 > 1:26:04I also ask in the context that the Government has no idea of the number

1:26:04 > 1:26:08of people in this country illegally, and focuses only on making it harder

1:26:08 > 1:26:13for this unknown number of people to live in this country illegally.

1:26:13 > 1:26:18Finally, I asked the question about the Government's estimate of the

1:26:18 > 1:26:23impact on the net migration figure of this bill. In the context that

1:26:23 > 1:26:26the Government has had control over the size of the net migration figure

1:26:26 > 1:26:33for people from outside the U, and have had no issues since 2010,

1:26:33 > 1:26:37that's net migration figure being consistently way above the

1:26:37 > 1:26:43Government's claimed target figure of total net migration figure being

1:26:43 > 1:26:48of the tens of thousands, this contradiction no doubt being the

1:26:48 > 1:26:52case, no doubt because what ever has been publicly declared, the

1:26:52 > 1:26:55Government knows only too well be benefits to this country that

1:26:55 > 1:27:02immigrants have brought and continue to bring. So, I hope in the light of

1:27:02 > 1:27:07all these factors, that the Government is not going to try and

1:27:07 > 1:27:12argue and imply that we do not have the capacity to take into our

1:27:12 > 1:27:17country the additional people under humanitarian and family reunion

1:27:17 > 1:27:21principles that might come here under the provisions of this bill,

1:27:21 > 1:27:23unless the Government is going to provide hard evidence that the

1:27:23 > 1:27:31figure could be well above what might be anticipated. In total

1:27:31 > 1:27:35contrary to the Government's overall approach to net migration, which in

1:27:35 > 1:27:42reality has been so somewhat different from the public impression

1:27:42 > 1:27:47it seeks to give, for electoral purposes, that its policy is to

1:27:47 > 1:27:58bring that figure into the tens of thousands, as a matter of priority.

1:27:58 > 1:28:04My Lords, may I first thank the noble lady for raising this very

1:28:04 > 1:28:11important issue that we often discussed in the Lordship's house,

1:28:11 > 1:28:17and my Lords, could I just state upfront, I think it would be useful,

1:28:17 > 1:28:24and this is particularly in response to the noble lord and Lady, my noble

1:28:24 > 1:28:30friend, that I would totally agree that immigration, and I say this as

1:28:30 > 1:28:35an immigrant, has enriched the UK, and particularly, for refugees who

1:28:35 > 1:28:43have made the UK their home, since 2010, my Lords, we have granted more

1:28:43 > 1:28:50than 100,000 refugees have permanent residence in the UK. In the year

1:28:50 > 1:28:55ending 2017, it was 9000 children, found such shelter, security and

1:28:55 > 1:29:03safety in the UK. 49,000 since 2010, and we are committed to resettling

1:29:03 > 1:29:08up to 3000 honourable children, together with their families from

1:29:08 > 1:29:16the Middle East and North Africa region, and 20,000 by 2020. Around

1:29:16 > 1:29:23half of whom, will be children. That is the facts to date. In addition,

1:29:23 > 1:29:32in comparison to the EU, my Lords, I think we can stand proud, because,

1:29:32 > 1:29:36in 2016, the UK resettled more refugees, that adult and children,

1:29:36 > 1:29:43than any other EU member state. And, over a third of all resettlement of

1:29:43 > 1:29:49the EU, was to the UK. We are a welcoming country, and we remain a

1:29:49 > 1:29:57welcoming country. The noble Lord asked how many visas had been issued

1:29:57 > 1:30:06outside of the immigration rules in family reunion cases, I can give him

1:30:06 > 1:30:112015 and 2016 figures, it doesn't 15, we issue 21 visas outside the

1:30:11 > 1:30:20immigration rules, in 2016, we issued 49, and up to September 2017,

1:30:20 > 1:30:25we have issued 49. My Lords, whether there are exceptional items that

1:30:25 > 1:30:28depend very much on the facts of each case, but may include, for

1:30:28 > 1:30:38example, an adult dependence or someone living in a context conflict

1:30:38 > 1:30:43zone, or a dangerous situation. Since we have published the

1:30:43 > 1:30:49guidance, entry clearance officers have provided a increased number of

1:30:49 > 1:31:02applicants outside of the age. Outside -- outside of the rules. My

1:31:02 > 1:31:10noble friend, Lord made the important point that we must not

1:31:10 > 1:31:14turn inwards. Britain has always been an outward looking country, and

1:31:14 > 1:31:18we will remain so on leaving the European Union. We will continue to

1:31:18 > 1:31:22uphold our international obligations, and welcome refugees to

1:31:22 > 1:31:28our shores as he sides we have done throughout history. But, I have

1:31:28 > 1:31:36listened, my Lords to concerns for the those separated from family

1:31:36 > 1:31:40members by conflict or repression, and no one, but no one could fail to

1:31:40 > 1:31:46be moved by the thought of close family living in conflict zones, or

1:31:46 > 1:31:49dangerous situations. That is why this Government only supports the

1:31:49 > 1:31:55principle of family unity, as we have already got a proper heads of

1:31:55 > 1:32:02framework for family members to be realised. This is set out in

1:32:02 > 1:32:07immigration rules, and our family union policy, rather than primary

1:32:07 > 1:32:18lesson legislation.

1:32:18 > 1:32:21In my Lords, there is already in place for extended family of

1:32:21 > 1:32:26refugees in the UK to support children where there are serious and

1:32:26 > 1:32:29compelling circumstances, and for British citizens to bring family

1:32:29 > 1:32:35here, so that there is no need for children, in particular, to make the

1:32:35 > 1:32:39illegal and Ginger 's journeys to get to the UK. -- dangerous

1:32:39 > 1:32:56journeys. The noble Lords and the noble Baroness, talked about people

1:32:56 > 1:33:00factor, and the Government not having evidence of that pull factor.

1:33:00 > 1:33:07I absolutely accept, that there rather push factors, and it

1:33:07 > 1:33:12important that we don't create further incentives for asylum

1:33:12 > 1:33:17seekers to choose to come here, illegally, rather than claim asylum

1:33:17 > 1:33:22from the first country that they reach. I think it is important to

1:33:22 > 1:33:28note that the Bush factor of civil war, or persecution, is the deciding

1:33:28 > 1:33:32factor of whether or not an individual freeze their country, but

1:33:32 > 1:33:37we must do all that we can, to support those in need of protection,

1:33:37 > 1:33:43to claim asylum in the first set country, to avoid these dangerous

1:33:43 > 1:33:48secondary movements, and we know that changes in policy, impact on

1:33:48 > 1:33:55asylum seeker's choices with regards to those secondary movements.

1:33:55 > 1:34:03Germany, for example, in 2015, saw its asylum in teak increased by 155%

1:34:03 > 1:34:13-- intake. More than 5% were from countries in the Balkans, which

1:34:13 > 1:34:18thankfully has not seen conflict for more than 20 years. The noble lady

1:34:18 > 1:34:28talk about us no longer offering DNA tests for family children. There is

1:34:28 > 1:34:31no requirement to provide DNA evidence, or any other particular

1:34:31 > 1:34:38type of evidence, because we recognise that documentary evidence

1:34:38 > 1:34:42might not always be available, particularly in countries where

1:34:42 > 1:34:44there is no administrative authority. We have improved our

1:34:44 > 1:34:49guide to hide light the challenges -- highlight the challenges that

1:34:49 > 1:34:56applicants may face in this regard. My Lords have highlighted the fact

1:34:56 > 1:35:02that family reunion rules only provide for the immediate family,

1:35:02 > 1:35:06but our policy caters for extended family living in precarious or

1:35:06 > 1:35:09dangerous circumstances. There is a provision to grant visas outside of

1:35:09 > 1:35:17the rules, and, in exceptional cases, unpublished guidelines for

1:35:17 > 1:35:25caseworkers makes that clear. The noble lord asked about the British

1:35:25 > 1:35:28citizens former refugees, that they cannot sponsor family members under

1:35:28 > 1:35:36family reunion, but my Lords, most refugees would complete six and

1:35:36 > 1:35:41years leave to remain, before they can apply for citizenship, and they

1:35:41 > 1:35:46can talk to their family members at any point in those six years, but

1:35:46 > 1:35:49the resource provision for British citizens with exceptional

1:35:49 > 1:35:54circumstances, and I can write to him further about this if he wishes.

1:35:54 > 1:35:59But, my Lords, I must be clear that the rules will remain in place after

1:35:59 > 1:36:10our exit from the European Union.

1:36:12 > 1:36:18Dublin does not confer immigration status, simply because an individual

1:36:18 > 1:36:29has a family member in the UK, it is a mechanism for does not --

1:36:29 > 1:36:31mechanism for deciding... Those transferred under Dublin may need to

1:36:31 > 1:36:37leave if they are found not to need protection. Our family reunion rules

1:36:37 > 1:36:41will continue to enable immediate family members to safely reunite

1:36:41 > 1:36:47with their loved ones in the UK, regardless of the country in which

1:36:47 > 1:36:57those family members are. In addition, those recognised as

1:36:57 > 1:37:01refugees, may be able to reunite throughout mandate resettlement

1:37:01 > 1:37:07scheme. Individuals are referred to UK visas and immigration by an HDR,

1:37:07 > 1:37:11where resettlement of the UK is deemed appropriate. We need to

1:37:11 > 1:37:15ensure existing schemes are used to full effect, to benefit family

1:37:15 > 1:37:22members living in regions of conflict, and for this, we rely on

1:37:22 > 1:37:25UNHCR, referring more people for the settlement under these schemes. My

1:37:25 > 1:37:32Lords, I can assure you, that we are listening to concerns about family

1:37:32 > 1:37:38reunion, and I am discussing with NGOs how we can make improvement, as

1:37:38 > 1:37:43part of our wider strategy? Our starting point, is, is that family

1:37:43 > 1:37:47reunion is a matter for immigration rules and policy, rather than

1:37:47 > 1:37:50primary legislation. I believe that those rules already cater for

1:37:50 > 1:37:55certain types of cases, and noble lord are concerned about, and I

1:37:55 > 1:38:00agree entirely that we may need to ensure that the policy is delivered

1:38:00 > 1:38:17in practice. Noble lady refers to the immigration rules 319 by, for

1:38:17 > 1:38:27unaccompanied children, and we are looking at that rule, whether we

1:38:27 > 1:38:38are, this is being discussed with organisations such as Unicef. The

1:38:38 > 1:38:44noble lord made the point that our policy is perverse, out of step with

1:38:44 > 1:38:49the rest of Europe, my lord our family reunion policy makes our

1:38:49 > 1:38:54international obligations and allows -- meets our international

1:38:54 > 1:38:58obligations and allows thousands of refugees to be reunited with their

1:38:58 > 1:39:02immediate families, and we would regularly review our family reunion

1:39:02 > 1:39:05policy in other member states, and we note that some are seeking to

1:39:05 > 1:39:13impose more stringent requirements. I have already laid out some of the

1:39:13 > 1:39:17figures, but, it is important, that our system does not encourage asylum

1:39:17 > 1:39:27seekers who are arriving in a safe country to elsewhere. We must

1:39:27 > 1:39:29undermine the movement from six countries would undermine to help

1:39:29 > 1:39:38those most in need. Both noble lord is talked about reinstating legal

1:39:38 > 1:39:43aid, in family reunion cases, my Lords, we are committed to providing

1:39:43 > 1:39:46clear guidance and application forms to support customers through the

1:39:46 > 1:39:51family reunion process, and, again we are working closely with key

1:39:51 > 1:40:00partners such as the Red Cross and Unicef, to further improve the

1:40:00 > 1:40:04process for action considering family reunion applications, so that

1:40:04 > 1:40:08people understand what is expected of them, and to ensure that policy

1:40:08 > 1:40:16works in practice, --. My Lords, legal aid is paid for by taxpayers,

1:40:16 > 1:40:20and the resources, as noble lord are not limitless, so it is important

1:40:20 > 1:40:24that it is provided for those most in need, including those who claim

1:40:24 > 1:40:30asylum.

1:40:30 > 1:40:35I believe that our focus remains on those who need protection and those

1:40:35 > 1:40:42who are fleeing conflict. I am aware of the importance of those

1:40:42 > 1:40:47recognised as refugees in the UK of having their family joined them pay

1:40:47 > 1:40:51to support their integration. That is why our policy allows immediate

1:40:51 > 1:40:55family to come here, whether they need protection in their own right

1:40:55 > 1:41:01or not. More importantly, this government significant resettlement

1:41:01 > 1:41:06commitments are designed to keep families together. It is worth

1:41:06 > 1:41:10reflecting on the contribution that the government has made to support

1:41:10 > 1:41:14those fleeing conflict and oppression. I have laid out some of

1:41:14 > 1:41:18the figures earlier, but we have expanded our resettlement

1:41:18 > 1:41:25commitments to raise resettle over... In addition, we have

1:41:25 > 1:41:27committed 2.46 billion of humanitarian aid to the Syrian

1:41:27 > 1:41:35conflict. My lords, in conclusion, I think we already have a

1:41:35 > 1:41:38comprehensive framework to provide safe and legal routes for family to

1:41:38 > 1:41:44reunite hair. Instead of primary legislation, we must ensure that our

1:41:44 > 1:41:48existing family reunion policy is delivered in practice. That is one

1:41:48 > 1:41:55of the points the noble lady Conway made right at the outset. Including

1:41:55 > 1:41:59visas granted outside the rules and in exceptional circumstances. And

1:41:59 > 1:42:05that our resettlement schemes are used to affect so we can help those

1:42:05 > 1:42:11who need it most. May I thank the noble lady and could ask her to

1:42:11 > 1:42:15continue to work with the government deceit if there are any other ways

1:42:15 > 1:42:22in which we can build on the family reunion policy. And process with out

1:42:22 > 1:42:30the need for primary legislation.My lords, I would like to thank

1:42:30 > 1:42:35everybody supported this bill. I would like to thank the Minister not

1:42:35 > 1:42:45only for the response, but for the last offer, I am happy to work with

1:42:45 > 1:42:48anyone however much I disagree with certain aspects as to what is being

1:42:48 > 1:42:56done. The governments positive response to refugees really does not

1:42:56 > 1:43:01accord with what speakers have had and know and have told the House. No

1:43:01 > 1:43:06doubt that is because so many people are affected. Much reference has

1:43:06 > 1:43:21been made, the pull factors. I will adopt the time implausible. -- Tama.

1:43:21 > 1:43:30... With regard to the rules, simply repeat again I don't want to make my

1:43:30 > 1:43:34speech all over again, that exceptional circumstances have

1:43:34 > 1:43:39actually become normal circumstances. So you cannot apply

1:43:39 > 1:43:44the accepts Shin Amity factor. The fact remains we have a situation

1:43:44 > 1:43:50where it is of huge concern to all noble lords regarding separated

1:43:50 > 1:43:57families. The comprehensive framework which has been referred to

1:43:57 > 1:44:01by the Minister is not one which is doing the job we all want to see.

1:44:01 > 1:44:08The threads which have run throughout this debate include how

1:44:08 > 1:44:17we wish our country in 2017 to be and to be perceived. Including one

1:44:17 > 1:44:24which expresses its humanity and the value of family. And the practical

1:44:24 > 1:44:29reasons also. Including those who are not... About the enrichment of

1:44:29 > 1:44:37our society. Reference was made at the start to informed public

1:44:37 > 1:44:40opinion. Politicians need to take the lead in informing public

1:44:40 > 1:44:48opinion. And in debating with the public. And I hope that noble lords

1:44:48 > 1:44:57will agree to give this bill eight Second Reading.The question is that

1:44:57 > 1:45:02this bill will now be read a second time. Those content will stop those

1:45:02 > 1:45:10not content.My lords, I beg to urge the bill be moved to the committee

1:45:10 > 1:45:14of the whole house.The bill be moved to a committee of the whole

1:45:14 > 1:45:22house as many who say they are content? Those who not content.

1:45:22 > 1:45:25Second Reading of the immigration control of human rights abuses

1:45:25 > 1:45:33bill...I beg to move that this bill now be read a second time. It is

1:45:33 > 1:45:37impossible to embark on the Second Reading of this bill without

1:45:37 > 1:45:42explaining... The shock shocking backdrop in this effort to create

1:45:42 > 1:45:46legislation which will provide entry into this country of people who are

1:45:46 > 1:45:53gross abuses of human rights. A Russian lawyer who acted... For

1:45:53 > 1:46:01Hermitage capital management. Its refusal to demand to the bow to the

1:46:01 > 1:46:08demands of Putin, bought episode of harassment and intimidation. In June

1:46:08 > 1:46:14of October 2008, Sergio testified it up before the public investigative

1:46:14 > 1:46:18committee in Moscow against corrupt officials who were involved in the

1:46:18 > 1:46:23corporate rate on Hermitage 's offices there. Taken place the

1:46:23 > 1:46:29previous year. For having the temerity to challenge the power of

1:46:29 > 1:46:33the Russian state, Sergio was arrested and detained on charges

1:46:33 > 1:46:40trumped up. The conditions he was held in pre-trial conditions were

1:46:40 > 1:46:45horrendous. Freezing cells, open sewage. Beds in short supply,

1:46:45 > 1:46:51prisoners forced to sleep in shifts. Sergio became very ill. He was

1:46:51 > 1:47:00denied medical treatment. His family and treaties were ignored. He was

1:47:00 > 1:47:04permanently handcuffed and regularly struck. He was found dead in his

1:47:04 > 1:47:07cell with injuries which were consistent with a final and hellish

1:47:07 > 1:47:15beating. It begs belief, but four years after his death, he was tried,

1:47:15 > 1:47:20I suppose they would call a trial in your absence and was convicted,

1:47:20 > 1:47:24having been posthumously prosecuted by the Russian state. The

1:47:24 > 1:47:29authoritarian termism of Putin's state reaches beyond the grave. Of

1:47:29 > 1:47:33course, what they were really doing was seeking to justify the cruelty

1:47:33 > 1:47:38that had exacted by them against a lawyer who dared to stand up for the

1:47:38 > 1:47:44rule of law. Those who were responsible for this catalogue of

1:47:44 > 1:47:48abuse have since been honoured by the brush and state and they have

1:47:48 > 1:47:52usually enriched themselves through fraud, using hand the Taj as a

1:47:52 > 1:48:00cover. Sergio's death left a mother, a wife and two children to grieve.

1:48:00 > 1:48:04As well as a devoted friend and client who is not going to take what

1:48:04 > 1:48:12happened lying down. His friend was the only financier banker who has

1:48:12 > 1:48:19turned into a dedicated full on full-time human rights activist. So

1:48:19 > 1:48:24Sergio's death, he has worked tirelessly to secure justice. He has

1:48:24 > 1:48:28campaigned against the continuity which was enjoyed by those officials

1:48:28 > 1:48:32who committed these gross acts of inhumanity. Knowing that Russia

1:48:32 > 1:48:36under Putin will never prosecute those who jailed, persecuted and

1:48:36 > 1:48:42ultimately killed Sergio, he has lobbied and campaigned and urged

1:48:42 > 1:48:51other nations to deny thanks --... The enjoyment of travel, the use of

1:48:51 > 1:48:58ill gotten gains and the anonymity which allows them to escape. So far,

1:48:58 > 1:49:02he has persuaded the United States and Canadian to legislate. It is

1:49:02 > 1:49:12time we did this also. This is about creating law. Human rights violators

1:49:12 > 1:49:17like those who murdered Sergio, exist in other nations to. In Sudan.

1:49:17 > 1:49:26Where we have generals like Sala gosh, identified by the UN Palin of

1:49:26 > 1:49:32experts to someone who should be subject to sanctions -- sanctioned.

1:49:32 > 1:49:42Then there is another general Mark Muhammed Hussain who has warrants

1:49:42 > 1:49:47outstanding from the international court for his role for crimes

1:49:47 > 1:49:54against you manatee and war crimes. In the Congo, where we have seen

1:49:54 > 1:50:00greediest atrocities committed and mass rape of women. In parts of the

1:50:00 > 1:50:06middle east, criminals walk free and come regularly to this country.

1:50:06 > 1:50:11Generals in Myanmar also are coming to mind. The United Nations

1:50:11 > 1:50:15commission for human rights can identify and provide evidence as TDs

1:50:15 > 1:50:19violators of human rights. They should not be able to come here.

1:50:19 > 1:50:23Think their money into expensive properties. Have their operations at

1:50:23 > 1:50:26private hospitals. Send their children to expensive private

1:50:26 > 1:50:32schools and live in our midst in impunity. Acids can now be frozen.

1:50:32 > 1:50:42This bill is to deny them deserve. The USA and Canadian acts contain

1:50:42 > 1:50:46elements that provide a template to be replicated the world over. Asset

1:50:46 > 1:50:51freezes. Travel bans and the explicit naming of the individuals

1:50:51 > 1:50:56whose conduct has led the government to sanction them. At present, the UK

1:50:56 > 1:51:02only has the asset freezing aspect of this type of law. This was

1:51:02 > 1:51:05introduced when the criminal finances act, which has an amending

1:51:05 > 1:51:12attached to it in April 2017 this year, it had passed through

1:51:12 > 1:51:17Parliament in the preceding months. This amendment allowed the

1:51:17 > 1:51:20government to apply to a High Court to have the assets of suspected

1:51:20 > 1:51:30human rights violators frozen. This left the UN lacking in travel

1:51:30 > 1:51:37bans... Under immigration rules, the Home Secretary does have a personal,

1:51:37 > 1:51:42non-statutory power to issue travel bans to individuals on the basis

1:51:42 > 1:51:46that their exclusion to the UK is conducive to the public good.

1:51:46 > 1:51:53Section 35A of the immigration act 1971 says that the power to deport

1:51:53 > 1:51:56anyone in the discretion of the Home Secretary if this is good for the

1:51:56 > 1:52:02public good. How often have those powers being used against human

1:52:02 > 1:52:08right abuses? The current powers allow the Home Secretary to prevent

1:52:08 > 1:52:16the names of those being banned from being published. The existence of a

1:52:16 > 1:52:22specific statutory provision. And that is what is being sought here.

1:52:22 > 1:52:26Aimed at sanctioning those involved in human rights abuses have focused

1:52:26 > 1:52:30their attention on that law and also introduce greater transparency into

1:52:30 > 1:52:35the exercise of powers to impose these bands. The Foreign Affairs

1:52:35 > 1:52:41Committee published a report in 2011. On the FCO's human rights work

1:52:41 > 1:52:44which asserted the value of publicising the names of those who

1:52:44 > 1:52:48were denied visas to enter the United Kingdom as a means of drawing

1:52:48 > 1:52:52attention to the UK's determination to uphold high standards of human

1:52:52 > 1:52:58rights. Only a few days ago, in this chamber, I participated in a debate

1:52:58 > 1:53:01about human rights, subsequent to Brexit. We were given guarantees

1:53:01 > 1:53:08from the Minister, from the benches, saying that human rights were a

1:53:08 > 1:53:11central consideration of this government. Here is a way in which

1:53:11 > 1:53:17this can be expressed. Dominic bra, member of Parliament argued in the

1:53:17 > 1:53:24Commons debate in February of this year, sorry, two years ago. In the

1:53:24 > 1:53:26introduction of specific statutory powers would give the public the

1:53:26 > 1:53:31right to know which individuals were being banned and which were not. And

1:53:31 > 1:53:37would help travel bans act as an effective deterrent to others. Would

1:53:37 > 1:53:41soon see a chilling effect of the movement of people if they thought

1:53:41 > 1:53:45that they were going to be problems as they sought entry into the

1:53:45 > 1:53:50country. The immigration control gross human rights abuses bill

1:53:50 > 1:53:57introduces two missing elements of a fully fledged minuscule. Explicit

1:53:57 > 1:54:04powers... Transparent naming requirements for those who are

1:54:04 > 1:54:11banned. Following the successful campaigns to pass these acts in the

1:54:11 > 1:54:15US and Canada, the Russian government has pursued William...

1:54:15 > 1:54:22Including abuse of international cooperation mechanisms, applying for

1:54:22 > 1:54:27arrest warrants. And the extradition to Russia. There have been five

1:54:27 > 1:54:29separate applications for is arrested by these means, all of

1:54:29 > 1:54:34which have been rejected by Interpol. But what it tells us, my

1:54:34 > 1:54:45lords, is

1:54:45 > 1:54:49They are doing their job. That is why Russia are so determined to go

1:54:49 > 1:54:53after him. One of the great complaint about human rights law is

1:54:53 > 1:54:58that it has insufficient to. This is how it you give teeth to our

1:54:58 > 1:54:59international commitments. I strongly commend this bill to the

1:54:59 > 1:55:14House.Let me thank and applaud the noble Baroness for introducing this

1:55:14 > 1:55:20bill on a profoundly important subject. As the House well knows she

1:55:20 > 1:55:25brings a phenomenal experience as a distinguished champion of human

1:55:25 > 1:55:35rights. Her work, past and present, includes six years of counsel, and I

1:55:35 > 1:55:39have a privilege of being deputy chairman for a time. I well written

1:55:39 > 1:55:43call her inspiring figures on human rights, and a fresh perspective and

1:55:43 > 1:55:54energy for that. She has sat on a number of committees in the most

1:55:54 > 1:56:01distinguished fashion, and most recently, leading the college is

1:56:01 > 1:56:06splendidly as principal for the last six years. Her long-term legacy will

1:56:06 > 1:56:13be in human rights. The institute will provide a distinguished form of

1:56:13 > 1:56:16human rights scholarship, and we look forward to the world-class

1:56:16 > 1:56:21events, research and policy development it will surely generate.

1:56:21 > 1:56:24Respect for human rights is at the heart of our Constitution and

1:56:24 > 1:56:31culture. As the late Lord Bingham, the first judge of the modern era,

1:56:31 > 1:56:42to be master of roles, Lord chief justice, said, in a world divided by

1:56:42 > 1:56:44differences of nationality, race, colour and religion and well, the

1:56:44 > 1:56:49rule of law is the one great unifying factor. Perhaps, the

1:56:49 > 1:56:57greatest. The nearest that we are likely to approach to a secular and

1:56:57 > 1:57:06it on. In discussions on the violations of human rights have been

1:57:06 > 1:57:10ongoing here for many years. As the noble lady and my friend said, since

1:57:10 > 1:57:19the tragic deaths, the matter has been given fresh intensity, after

1:57:19 > 1:57:29encouraging the alleged £150 million fraud, and considering he was

1:57:29 > 1:57:32incarcerated in prison without trial, and during his detention, it

1:57:32 > 1:57:38was says that he was wilfully subjected to torture, and received

1:57:38 > 1:57:42delayed and inadequate treatment of pancreatitis. After 358 days there,

1:57:42 > 1:57:56he died in 2009. Surrogate, it has been said that he worked as a... The

1:57:56 > 1:58:03founder and chief executive of this country, has been unrelenting in his

1:58:03 > 1:58:08dedication for campaigning for legislation for pursuing those

1:58:08 > 1:58:11responsible for his death, and penalising others similarly, as the

1:58:11 > 1:58:16noble lady said, he is ready to become a full-time human rights

1:58:16 > 1:58:21campaigner. There are so many in business facing adversity, move the

1:58:21 > 1:58:23other way, look at the commercial interests, it is never good for

1:58:23 > 1:58:29business. To become a difficult person or a relentless campaign. So

1:58:29 > 1:58:37much easier to move on, create more wealth, maybe dedicate some of that

1:58:37 > 1:58:44to causes, but Bill is a example to us all in his tenacity, courage and

1:58:44 > 1:58:51persuasiveness and determination. So, he was the driving force

1:58:51 > 1:58:54concerning the accountability act 2012 in the United States, the

1:58:54 > 1:59:02purpose of that legislation has been said, to punish those responsible in

1:59:02 > 1:59:05the death, by banning them from the United States, and denying them

1:59:05 > 1:59:20access to American banking systems. Another prominent human rights

1:59:20 > 1:59:23lawyer, Robertson said it was one of the most important examples of human

1:59:23 > 1:59:33rights.

1:59:34 > 1:59:37It was a welcome development, following much campaigning, when in

1:59:37 > 1:59:47April, this year, the act passed unanimously from the House of

1:59:47 > 1:59:56Commons, to contain the provisions that allow Government to... We

1:59:56 > 1:59:58applaud the cross-party support that led to the Government is taking that

1:59:58 > 2:00:03vital step, to prevent those responsible and complicit in these

2:00:03 > 2:00:11appalling incidents. Human rights is central to our shared values. We

2:00:11 > 2:00:16should send a clear as possible message, holding ourselves at the

2:00:16 > 2:00:26highest standards. We recall the minister's excellent speech. He

2:00:26 > 2:00:30recognised his story as only one example of the many atrocities of

2:00:30 > 2:00:34human rights violations committed globally every year. We very much

2:00:34 > 2:00:39look forward to her response, now. We hope that she would agree to go

2:00:39 > 2:00:45this extra step. Additionally, we should not overlook the ongoing

2:00:45 > 2:00:48deprivations and persecution by some national leaders in particular

2:00:48 > 2:00:54countries. We have got to weep as because of the of the fate of the

2:00:54 > 2:01:00Muslims, and other minorities in Myanmar to remain in Syria. The

2:01:00 > 2:01:05noble lady catalogue the further list of examples, and we cannot pass

2:01:05 > 2:01:11by and take no notice. I just wish that there were, in every year and

2:01:11 > 2:01:25continent, that there... Before the said benefit of their people, paving

2:01:25 > 2:01:31the way to sustainable and equitable prosperity. We should identify and

2:01:31 > 2:01:36support the best, but we also have an obligation to target and

2:01:36 > 2:01:39penalised the worst. Let our law and practice bring an end to the scandal

2:01:39 > 2:01:46of wrongdoing and welcome to spend their time and money here without

2:01:46 > 2:02:00net. I support the bill. I too, --I too, strongly support this bill. I

2:02:00 > 2:02:08welcome the Lady's commitment Ann Hough commitment -- commitment to

2:02:08 > 2:02:14the cause. As she had explained, essentially, to complete what must

2:02:14 > 2:02:20surely be accepted by all as a compellingly necessary legislative

2:02:20 > 2:02:26response to the particular form of gross abuse of human rights, to

2:02:26 > 2:02:31which it is directed. Part of that response, the monetary part, as has

2:02:31 > 2:02:36been expend, in the criminal finances act earlier this year,

2:02:36 > 2:02:42which provides, by way of amendment to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002,

2:02:42 > 2:02:48fully civil recovery of the proceeds of Arnold for conduct, and that

2:02:48 > 2:02:54unlawful conduct is now defined and pursued to the 2017 act, to include,

2:02:54 > 2:03:02under the title, Gross Human Rights Abuse Of Violation, the appalling

2:03:02 > 2:03:11ill-treatment of what can be called whistle-blowers, and the like. Under

2:03:11 > 2:03:19the 2002 acts, as now amended, the financial gain from this form of

2:03:19 > 2:03:24gross human rights abuses can be frozen by establishing a quote good

2:03:24 > 2:03:31arguable case unquote, and recovered by legal action into cases then

2:03:31 > 2:03:36established on the balance of probabilities. Having supported that

2:03:36 > 2:03:42provision, in my speech and second reading on the 2017 act, when I

2:03:42 > 2:03:51simply mentioned the name, I then received by post a copy of the book.

2:03:51 > 2:03:59Generally, never one -- one never gets round to reading these, but I

2:03:59 > 2:04:04was tempted to dip into it by the endorsements on the cover, quote a

2:04:04 > 2:04:20shocking, to life -- to left thriller. Unquote. Having picked it

2:04:20 > 2:04:27up, I could not put it down, and I finished it with a deep sense of

2:04:27 > 2:04:37outrage. It was described as the best thrillers someone ever read

2:04:37 > 2:04:48and. The criminal finances act, earlier this year, dealt only with

2:04:48 > 2:04:54the material proceeds of that sort of appalling Ms conduct, and has

2:04:54 > 2:05:01also been explained, by the United States legislation, which Bill had

2:05:01 > 2:05:07secured, somewhat previously has prohibited or so, and rightly so,

2:05:07 > 2:05:11the entry of certain individuals to the United States, and it is

2:05:11 > 2:05:19essential to achieve this, that the bill today is directed, and I

2:05:19 > 2:05:23applaud it. But, there are two Mac questions, and I think it is just

2:05:23 > 2:05:50worth reading. Clause one provides for the banning entry... What

2:05:50 > 2:06:00standard of proof is intended to apply? What state of mind must the

2:06:00 > 2:06:02Secretary of State or the immigration officer PA before he can

2:06:02 > 2:06:08act as this bill envisages? Bill for what it is worth, and it might not

2:06:08 > 2:06:18be

2:06:20 > 2:06:33much, concerning the correct approach to decide on the barring of

2:06:33 > 2:06:47the darts we will... And in considering what that involved, we

2:06:47 > 2:06:53have concluded that clearly, a lower standard is required, and would be

2:06:53 > 2:06:58applicable to an actual war crimes trial, but, there was a higher test

2:06:58 > 2:07:07for exclusion, having, quote, reasonable grounds for suspecting,

2:07:07 > 2:07:15unquote. Considering, the word considering, we approximate rather

2:07:15 > 2:07:22to believing them to expecting, now I know from the briefing on this

2:07:22 > 2:07:26bill that the Home Office guidance on the approach to immigration rule

2:07:26 > 2:07:34320 bracket 19, the paragraph that provides for an immigration officer

2:07:34 > 2:07:38to refuse entry if he deems the person's exclusion to be conclusive

2:07:38 > 2:07:46to the public good. The Home Office guidance to that, is that entry must

2:07:46 > 2:07:50be refused, if the person is suspected of crimes against

2:07:50 > 2:08:00humanity. But, it may be perhaps one thing to route views -- refuse entry

2:08:00 > 2:08:07on the basis of Mears is bitten, as that guidance suggests, in that

2:08:07 > 2:08:11context. Perhaps, another thing, is that this bill also envisages to

2:08:11 > 2:08:19cancel or curtail existing leave. At this stage, what I would say is that

2:08:19 > 2:08:24by the thought may need to be given to the word, known, which is perhaps

2:08:24 > 2:08:35too exact in a test it may need amendment at committees page. Over

2:08:35 > 2:08:42the last few months, this house has been devoting considerable time to

2:08:42 > 2:08:50the sanctions and anti-money-laundering bill, and

2:08:50 > 2:08:56knowing of this impending bill, I have to say, it has occurred to me

2:08:56 > 2:09:02from time to time, that this objective could possibly have been

2:09:02 > 2:09:07encompassed, within the sanctions provision, in this substantial bluey

2:09:07 > 2:09:13more comprehensive public bill. The sanctions bill has just, of course,

2:09:13 > 2:09:23reached report stage, and I simply ask, could and should this further

2:09:23 > 2:09:31provision, shredded, I wonder, now introduced into that act? At least,

2:09:31 > 2:09:33the possibilities should be considered, unless of course it has

2:09:33 > 2:09:40already been, it for some reason which I know it has been rejected. I

2:09:40 > 2:09:43do suggest that thought could be given to that. All that said, I

2:09:43 > 2:09:50repeat my strong support for introducing this further provision

2:09:50 > 2:10:06into our law, and which this bill a fair wind.

2:10:06 > 2:10:11And commend her to bring it forward and for presenting it with all the

2:10:11 > 2:10:16persuasiveness and passion that has made her one of the country's great

2:10:16 > 2:10:21advocates. And of course, she is an advocate for great causes and this

2:10:21 > 2:10:27is one. It is perhaps particularly ironic that this bill comes

2:10:27 > 2:10:35immediately after the last second Reading. In the last second Reading,

2:10:35 > 2:10:40we were talking about children, unfortunate children at the mercy of

2:10:40 > 2:10:44events and trying to open the door to enable them to come into this

2:10:44 > 2:10:50country to be looked after and cared for. Here, we are looking at the

2:10:50 > 2:10:56horrible fact that those Dooley there with their idols can easily

2:10:56 > 2:11:01come into this country and bring their ill gotten gains and families

2:11:01 > 2:11:05with them with remarkably little hindrance when they have engaged in

2:11:05 > 2:11:08some of the most appalling and inhuman practices in their own parts

2:11:08 > 2:11:15of the world. I am as enthusiastic about dealing with the malefactors

2:11:15 > 2:11:21as I am speaking for those who need are care and support. My lords, this

2:11:21 > 2:11:29is described as a Magnitsky bill, but of course, it's not because this

2:11:29 > 2:11:35is the only case. I see the noble lord in his place and remember that

2:11:35 > 2:11:44in July 2013, he brought forward another case. There are many such

2:11:44 > 2:11:49cases. I look forward to what he has to say about these things because

2:11:49 > 2:11:55this is not an isolated case, it is something that has been going on. It

2:11:55 > 2:12:02is a whole attitude and approach on Mr Putin's regime. One might say

2:12:02 > 2:12:06there is a long history in that country going back to the days of

2:12:06 > 2:12:11the Soviet Union when he was also a significant figure. But one of the

2:12:11 > 2:12:15big differences was, in those days, the officials, whatever they were

2:12:15 > 2:12:22doing within the Soviet Union, they tended to stay there. Now they steal

2:12:22 > 2:12:28from their own country and people and bring their ill gotten gains to

2:12:28 > 2:12:32this country to inflate the House prices in some places and give

2:12:32 > 2:12:37themselves a good life and also as of possibilities and we find

2:12:37 > 2:12:41ourselves permitting this to happen when we know it is wrong. We don't

2:12:41 > 2:12:46have too, there are things we can do about it. Often, when there are

2:12:46 > 2:12:50things happening that we are very unhappy about, and sadly there are

2:12:50 > 2:12:54many of them in the world, we are unable to do something to make a

2:12:54 > 2:13:02difference. But it is clear that we can make a difference in this case.

2:13:02 > 2:13:08When the Magnitsky act was passed, the response from Mr Putin and his

2:13:08 > 2:13:13colleagues was strident. It was clear it has had an impact. When we

2:13:13 > 2:13:17spoke on December 2012 at a press conference, it is clearly not just

2:13:17 > 2:13:22from what he said but the way he said it that this was really

2:13:22 > 2:13:29striking home. They produced their own anti-Magnitsky act and it was a

2:13:29 > 2:13:34strangely ironic thing because what they did was blocked the adoption of

2:13:34 > 2:13:40Russian children by people from the United States and America. There is

2:13:40 > 2:13:44something so seedy, unpleasant and vile about that kind of response

2:13:44 > 2:13:48that it tells us something about the spirit from which it is coming. My

2:13:48 > 2:13:55lords, it is clear to me that this is something we can do and we should

2:13:55 > 2:13:59do and I am glad that we have the opportunity presented to us to do

2:13:59 > 2:14:09just that.My lords, may I also starred with congratulating the

2:14:09 > 2:14:14noble lady in bringing forward the spill. It is a pleasure to come and

2:14:14 > 2:14:19support this measure. In her speech, she gave a short description of the

2:14:19 > 2:14:24circumstances that led to the death of Sergei Magnitsky. I think we

2:14:24 > 2:14:35should reflect a bit on the context of there, because it is a reluctant

2:14:35 > 2:14:38thing that people recognise the reality that Russia is not a normal

2:14:38 > 2:14:43state. It is pretty close to being a mafia state. There are high levels

2:14:43 > 2:14:49of corruption in all parts of the state and the response of person to

2:14:49 > 2:14:56the Magnitsky legislation and their pursuit of Bill Browder indicates

2:14:56 > 2:15:00that at the highest level of Government, they are colluding with

2:15:00 > 2:15:08the criminality that is there. I do wish members of society here who

2:15:08 > 2:15:14sometimes can be found on the expense of yards of these gangsters

2:15:14 > 2:15:20or think that Russia is a country that we can do business with, I wish

2:15:20 > 2:15:24they would think again and bear in mind the character of people that

2:15:24 > 2:15:32they are proposing to deal with. This legislation is the second-half

2:15:32 > 2:15:37of what you might call the Magnitsky Amendment. The first half as already

2:15:37 > 2:15:46been enacted. I think that is an idea that we should look closely at,

2:15:46 > 2:15:53but was just sad. A bigger question on my mind is, is this legislation

2:15:53 > 2:16:01going to be enforced? That is an area where one has some concerns and

2:16:01 > 2:16:11the concerns are illustrated, just going through this particular case.

2:16:11 > 2:16:18A question was tabled in the other place, where it was asked, if any of

2:16:18 > 2:16:22the 60 individuals named on the list published by the commission on

2:16:22 > 2:16:28Security and co-operation in Europe, individuals involved in the tax

2:16:28 > 2:16:32fraud and torture and death of Sergei Magnitsky published in June,

2:16:32 > 2:16:38if any of those have visited the UK in the past year and if she will

2:16:38 > 2:16:44disclose such visits. Unfortunately, the Minister for education replied

2:16:44 > 2:16:49that it was long-standing policy not to disclose details of records which

2:16:49 > 2:16:57may be held in relation to the... The Home Office is already aware of

2:16:57 > 2:17:01the individuals on the list and has taken the necessary measures to

2:17:01 > 2:17:10prevent them from being issued with the visas for travel to the UK. He

2:17:10 > 2:17:15is doing quite well by signalling that but unfortunately, a fewer days

2:17:15 > 2:17:20later, the letter was sent that, although the special cases

2:17:20 > 2:17:25directorate has taken to make sure applications for travel to the UK

2:17:25 > 2:17:29are flagged up for careful consideration on a case-by-case

2:17:29 > 2:17:33basis, no decision has been made to refuse the reef outright. I think

2:17:33 > 2:17:39that's disgraceful. I think to talk about all applications to be dealt

2:17:39 > 2:17:45with on the individual merits as an in-line with our usual practice is

2:17:45 > 2:17:50really chilling because these are not usual cases and they shouldn't

2:17:50 > 2:17:55be treated as part of the usual practice. The point that was made

2:17:55 > 2:18:02earlier is that these provisions actually do work. They are hitting

2:18:02 > 2:18:05the oligarchs and the criminal gang spirit hurts in terms of the

2:18:05 > 2:18:10freezing of assets and denial of access to hear and I think we should

2:18:10 > 2:18:15be doing this at a matter of policy rather than waiting for individual

2:18:15 > 2:18:21cases to come about. That is the main point I wish to make on this,

2:18:21 > 2:18:29not just to support this proposal but to see that it is enforced as a

2:18:29 > 2:18:33matter of general policy because it gives us a very valuable tool.

2:18:33 > 2:18:36Coming to London is an attractive thing and refusing that is something

2:18:36 > 2:18:45that is going to enable us to make a difference. It is a demonstration of

2:18:45 > 2:18:48our affective soft power and something we should use and I hope

2:18:48 > 2:18:57we will do. I hope very much in this bill will become law speedily.My

2:18:57 > 2:19:04lords, I would like to thank the noble lady who agreed some ten years

2:19:04 > 2:19:10ago when I asked her to become my mentors and has remained a hero for

2:19:10 > 2:19:18me all of my working life. I was astounded to hear and read that it

2:19:18 > 2:19:25was possible for someone who has committed acts of corruption, that

2:19:25 > 2:19:32even in Iran were regarded as unacceptable to come to this country

2:19:32 > 2:19:39where a moment ago we were fighting for the right of immigrants who have

2:19:39 > 2:19:44committed no crimes to Compton to this country. It seems to be a

2:19:44 > 2:19:50contradiction is extraordinary. How is it possible to think that there

2:19:50 > 2:19:58are laws that allow criminals to come to this country, to bring their

2:19:58 > 2:20:05money here and to London that? All my life I thought that by coming to

2:20:05 > 2:20:15Britain I would have left behind corruptions of that kind and gross

2:20:15 > 2:20:19financial indecency. I came to this country because I thought that the

2:20:19 > 2:20:23laws were straight, because we knew what was happening, because we could

2:20:23 > 2:20:30trust the banks and we would now that this country would protect

2:20:30 > 2:20:35those who are needy but would certainly not offer a haven for

2:20:35 > 2:20:44those who are going to abuse their positions. It seems to me

2:20:44 > 2:20:48unacceptable and I beg that we change this attitude, because it is

2:20:48 > 2:20:58dishonourable for me to think that it's acceptable in this country. To

2:20:58 > 2:21:05allow the kind of corruption that has been rife in many countries,

2:21:05 > 2:21:15that we have considered undesirable. Please, my words.My lords, I start

2:21:15 > 2:21:21by welcoming and congratulating the noble Baroness on bringing this bill

2:21:21 > 2:21:26to the floor of the House. She has many admirers across all sides of

2:21:26 > 2:21:32this House and I fully endorse the words earlier one from my noble

2:21:32 > 2:21:36friend, all very eloquently and so simply reminding us all why we all

2:21:36 > 2:21:44admire her so much. I also speak in support of this bill but as I speak,

2:21:44 > 2:21:48lower down the order, it's not often that I can say this but I possibly

2:21:48 > 2:21:52fully endorse all comments made by old noble Lords on all sides of the

2:21:52 > 2:21:59House. And by doing that, it means I don't have to speak for as long as I

2:21:59 > 2:22:05have. I welcome and congratulate the Government on adopting the clause to

2:22:05 > 2:22:09the criminal finances act which was brought in the first part of the

2:22:09 > 2:22:17Magnitsky act. But this doesn't go far enough. And it's right, as my

2:22:17 > 2:22:22honourable friend said, we need to make the UK a hostile environment

2:22:22 > 2:22:28for those seeking to move, hide and use the process of crime and

2:22:28 > 2:22:32corruption in an increasingly competitive international

2:22:32 > 2:22:36marketplace, the UK simply cannot afford to be seen as a haven for

2:22:36 > 2:22:43dirty money. But we need to go further than that. We must not be a

2:22:43 > 2:22:48haven for human rights violations. The law this bill would create has

2:22:48 > 2:22:53widespread support in this House. The polling that has been done shows

2:22:53 > 2:22:57it has popular support in the United Kingdom and support across the

2:22:57 > 2:23:01political divide and is in tune with what has happened in the United

2:23:01 > 2:23:05States, Canada and other European countries. In the House of Commons

2:23:05 > 2:23:10over five years ago, a motion was unanimously passed calling for Visa

2:23:10 > 2:23:17and economic restrictions on Russian officials on the crimes covered by

2:23:17 > 2:23:23Magnitsky and since his death. The foreign affairs select committee

2:23:23 > 2:23:26should the list of banned human rights violations with reference to

2:23:26 > 2:23:32the Magnitsky case. My lords, the Baroness has also referred to the

2:23:32 > 2:23:37Home Secretary overarching power to remove those whose presence in the

2:23:37 > 2:23:43UK would not be conducive to public good. And then you may ask, what is

2:23:43 > 2:23:51the need for the law? But those plans are really published, often

2:23:51 > 2:23:55when asked neither confirmed nor denied. There is no meaning or

2:23:55 > 2:24:02shaming, no knowing who is here and who has been allowed in here and now

2:24:02 > 2:24:07light is shed on those who operated in dark ways. When dealing with the

2:24:07 > 2:24:10financial provisions we now have, it was said that this message would

2:24:10 > 2:24:14send a clear statement is that the UK would not stand by and allow

2:24:14 > 2:24:19those who have committed a gross abuse around the world to launder

2:24:19 > 2:24:25the money here. I would argue that we need to send a similarly strong

2:24:25 > 2:24:29signal in relation to the presence of these individuals in the UK. We

2:24:29 > 2:24:34said that we don't want your money here, we need to say we don't want

2:24:34 > 2:24:39you here either. But this bill must not limit itself to the specific and

2:24:39 > 2:24:44appalling circumstances as the House has heard about the death of Sergei

2:24:44 > 2:24:48Magnitsky even if it is motivated by that, this bill must be universally

2:24:48 > 2:25:00applied.

2:25:00 > 2:25:05An act was passed in 2012 to deal with the particular case. It

2:25:05 > 2:25:12authorised the President at a time when we had a president in the US,

2:25:12 > 2:25:23when human rights mattered somewhat.

2:25:26 > 2:25:34A similar broad act should be adopted by us. Every day, we see the

2:25:34 > 2:25:37most he knows human rights abuses committed around the world, by the

2:25:37 > 2:25:47sofa called -- so-called respectable and powerful politicians. Burma has

2:25:47 > 2:26:00been a horrific case in recent months. Why must we always in the

2:26:00 > 2:26:06long-term seek to bring these perpetrators to justice, either in

2:26:06 > 2:26:11their home countries, or in the former international... In the

2:26:11 > 2:26:16future, we must send out the signal that it cannot be business as usual.

2:26:16 > 2:26:20Our commitment to human rights must be clearly visible when people seek

2:26:20 > 2:26:35to enter the United Kingdom. This bill, extending... Then Britain will

2:26:35 > 2:26:38not be a place where you can do business, if your total income to

2:26:38 > 2:26:42study here, you're not be at your graduations, if you have blood on

2:26:42 > 2:26:47your hands, you will not be doing your Christmas shopping at Harrods.

2:26:47 > 2:26:51My Lords, only as here today, this has has been discussing refugees and

2:26:51 > 2:26:57family reunion. We have, quite rightly, been a haven for those that

2:26:57 > 2:27:02flee from human rights violations and abuse. My Lords, we must never

2:27:02 > 2:27:10become a haven for those that commit such abuse.My Lords, can I join

2:27:10 > 2:27:14every other Speaker in the House in congratulating the noble lady

2:27:14 > 2:27:25Baroness for moving this for bringing this bill to the floor this

2:27:25 > 2:27:29has, and I will join her every step in the way in ensuring that we get

2:27:29 > 2:27:35every support we can to make this pass. I need to declare, and a

2:27:35 > 2:27:41category two for the registries and members interests, my role as a

2:27:41 > 2:27:47enumerator chat of the five rights campaign, which is the new human

2:27:47 > 2:28:05rights campaign. The bill is very timely,...

2:28:09 > 2:28:25This went a step further than the Magnitsky act. We should be proud

2:28:25 > 2:28:32that we are trying to move anything direction today. This bill will

2:28:32 > 2:28:36bring clarity and give teeth to the travel ban aspect which is currently

2:28:36 > 2:28:47missing. My Lords, I too have the privilege, and take inspiration from

2:28:47 > 2:28:49his courageous leadership, which is so frequently absent from commercial

2:28:49 > 2:28:58light. I worked for the Commonwealth Secretariat, particularly

2:28:58 > 2:29:04responsible for its good governance human rights and democracy aspects.

2:29:04 > 2:29:16That was in the late 1990ss into the early 2000s. Robert Mugabe was

2:29:16 > 2:29:28committing hedonists human rights violations. -- keenness. In the we

2:29:28 > 2:29:37had verification, yet, we sat there, in utter and complete frustration,

2:29:37 > 2:29:39as international tools, and international law, as well as United

2:29:39 > 2:29:45Kingdom law did not provide us with any ability to stop Robert Mugabe,

2:29:45 > 2:29:50his henchmen, and his wife coming to the UK, for medical treatment, or

2:29:50 > 2:29:56more likely, to spend their ill gotten gains in our high-end stores

2:29:56 > 2:30:01in this capital city. In other country -- another country that is a

2:30:01 > 2:30:07useful example, is in Pakistan, where a person who is thought to

2:30:07 > 2:30:11have committed a huge number of human rights violations, while

2:30:11 > 2:30:16living in self-imposed XL in London, these were human rights violations

2:30:16 > 2:30:23that he sanctioned from London, and he was known as a person of

2:30:23 > 2:30:29interest, to UK law enforcement. There were a minimum of 31 charges

2:30:29 > 2:30:39against him. -- within Pakistan in self, on murder, money-laundering,

2:30:39 > 2:30:44and multiple other abuses. Yet, he was able to preside over this, and

2:30:44 > 2:30:52interfere in Pakistani politics with immunity. He was running something

2:30:52 > 2:31:14again to spectre as they bond movement from -- a Bond movie. My

2:31:14 > 2:31:19Lords, if this bill had been in place, that did not have happened.

2:31:19 > 2:31:25It's tarnished the reputation of the United Kingdom. Now, Clause 1.2 of

2:31:25 > 2:31:34the bill, which refers to section of the Proceeds of Crime Act, is

2:31:34 > 2:31:37medically important, as it defines unlawful conduct more broadly. The

2:31:37 > 2:31:46UK has long had a reputation for allowing financial crime, as well as

2:31:46 > 2:31:51welcoming people who have ill gotten gains, but this does not just

2:31:51 > 2:31:57includes the developing world, but it covers many other states as well.

2:31:57 > 2:32:01As far as I know, London is one of the few cities in the world which

2:32:01 > 2:32:09had a black dockers see bus tour. I understand the organisers are

2:32:09 > 2:32:21planning to expand that to New York shortly. I took this bus tour. It

2:32:21 > 2:32:28was not a pretty sight. I suggest, that other noble lord in this house

2:32:28 > 2:32:33take this bus tour, it takes from Whitehill place. It takes little

2:32:33 > 2:32:41more than two hours, but it will provide a real insight into who owns

2:32:41 > 2:32:46London, our capital, and home to Europe's largest financial services

2:32:46 > 2:32:55sector. I know that corruption and money-laundering is not in itself a

2:32:55 > 2:32:58gross human rights violation, but, the two things often go hand in

2:32:58 > 2:33:03hand, with those that are grossly corrupt often outsourcing the

2:33:03 > 2:33:08intimidation, torture and supposed murder, two others in order to

2:33:08 > 2:33:14Ireland's public officials who cannot be brought up by them. If one

2:33:14 > 2:33:19superimposes human rights violations into a map of corruption in Russia,

2:33:19 > 2:33:24it is the same stakes that come up. And, that applies to other regions

2:33:24 > 2:33:29of the world, as well. And, there is secrecy at Government level, here in

2:33:29 > 2:33:34the UK, that allows and the public, to never be clear on what basis the

2:33:34 > 2:33:40wrongdoers are here in the UK. We see that the Minister, of State for

2:33:40 > 2:33:45security and immigration, James Brokenshire, stated in response to a

2:33:45 > 2:34:00written P Q... This is what the bill will throw light on. We can't allow

2:34:00 > 2:34:05that to continue. It suggests that the Government prefers to continue

2:34:05 > 2:34:08dealing with shady people on the basis... Presumably on the basis

2:34:08 > 2:34:16because they are posted people on tarmac in power. My Lords, I know

2:34:16 > 2:34:20that this is not a foreign affairs debate, but I would only say that if

2:34:20 > 2:34:24she had heard the condemnation of Saudi Arabia on the 16th of November

2:34:24 > 2:34:29in the statement of the Yemen, she would know what I was talking about.

2:34:29 > 2:34:38The Iraq of gross hypocrisy of the -- the era of gross hypocrisy on the

2:34:38 > 2:34:49part of governments is over.

2:34:53 > 2:34:57Legislators request that additional names be added, evidence can be

2:34:57 > 2:35:02obtained from US and non-US sources. This is important, as those on the

2:35:02 > 2:35:06ground in this right violating states are best informed of the

2:35:06 > 2:35:12facts. We often find the countries hide behind the fees that we will

2:35:12 > 2:35:17leave the sanctions regime to be implemented at EU level. Well, I am

2:35:17 > 2:35:21highly the boredom of smart sanctions, we also need to see our

2:35:21 > 2:35:25own country rising to that challenge. This bill would improve

2:35:25 > 2:35:29and fast tracked the ability of UK authorities themselves to take

2:35:29 > 2:35:33action where international bodies have not reached agreement, or are

2:35:33 > 2:35:37too slow to respond. In conclusion, my lord, I urge the Government to

2:35:37 > 2:35:43support this bill. 2018 will be the 70th anniversary of the universal

2:35:43 > 2:35:52declaration on human rights. It will be the year when the UK hosts the

2:35:52 > 2:35:54Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. It will be the first time

2:35:54 > 2:36:01that the UK will have that role this entry. My Lords, in posts Brexit

2:36:01 > 2:36:04Britain and Ireland, what a powerful signal it would be, if the

2:36:04 > 2:36:13Government follows Canada's example and incorporated this bill into law

2:36:13 > 2:36:20in April 2000 18.My lord, as others have, I congratulate the noble lady

2:36:20 > 2:36:23Baroness Kennedy, bringing forward this bill. She is a hero, and I am

2:36:23 > 2:36:29proud to regard her as a friend. She is a crusader. In his crusade, it is

2:36:29 > 2:36:34clear that all sides of the House supporter. This debate is not about