0:00:00 > 0:00:00that this House to adjourn.Many of that opinion say, I. The iPods might
0:00:00 > 0:00:01have order, order.
0:00:05 > 0:00:14-- the I's have it.We will not be going live to the House of Lords.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17Remember you can watch recorded coverage of all of today's business
0:00:17 > 0:00:21in the Lords after the daily politics later tonight.I agree that
0:00:21 > 0:00:27I think we will look at how we can have the conversation and discussion
0:00:27 > 0:00:36move this forward like my noble friend Lord Forsyth I have grave
0:00:36 > 0:00:40doubts and indeed we won't be moving to the position of consent. I would
0:00:40 > 0:00:43like to see us move to position where we are certainly talking and
0:00:43 > 0:00:48consulting and I'm happy to engage at that. I think anon devolved areas
0:00:48 > 0:00:57to move into a position of consent would be dangerous. I think my noble
0:00:57 > 0:01:02friend once again for what he said and I totally agree that if you
0:01:02 > 0:01:06thought this was difficult just wait until we get to clause 11. I think
0:01:06 > 0:01:09this is relatively straightforward and I can see through this where we
0:01:09 > 0:01:18would have wrought agreement and I think also 11 again and look Lord
0:01:18 > 0:01:26Griffis indicated it will be much more difficult. I agree with him
0:01:26 > 0:01:31that I think it is important that we should move to a position where it
0:01:31 > 0:01:37does relate to devolved areas. There is a convention that has grown up
0:01:37 > 0:01:42and widely accepted about consent. I think that is absolutely right.
0:01:42 > 0:01:49Think Lord Griffis for the clarity and I agree with him about the
0:01:49 > 0:01:53importance of the transparency and of coming up with something that I
0:01:53 > 0:01:56think is common sense which was essentially what he was saying. I
0:01:56 > 0:02:03don't disagree. Therefore, my lords, I think we're probably reached
0:02:03 > 0:02:09agreement on clause seven. In relation to clause eight and clause
0:02:09 > 0:02:13nine I am happy to look at the points that were made and to discuss
0:02:13 > 0:02:16further ahead of report but I would ask in the meantime at the noble
0:02:16 > 0:02:23lord noble lady would withdraw their amendments.
0:02:29 > 0:02:34I would like to thank the normal Lord for his break
0:02:34 > 0:02:38characteristically detailed and courteous response and we look
0:02:38 > 0:02:40forward to examining these amendments in greater detail ahead
0:02:40 > 0:02:46of report stage where we will probably have many longer
0:02:46 > 0:02:50discussions about these amendments I report stage. In the meantime, I beg
0:02:50 > 0:02:55leave to withdraw the amendment.Let this amendment be John. The
0:02:55 > 0:03:05amendment I leave is John. I meant 90. -- drawn.I moved a madman
0:03:05 > 0:03:14across earlier today. I think I did. -- the amendment. Some time ago. I'm
0:03:14 > 0:03:22very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. It seems
0:03:22 > 0:03:26to me to some of very, very briefly that there was a theme that ran
0:03:26 > 0:03:33through various contributions which I now bring to a point. I picked up
0:03:33 > 0:03:38from the noble lord the point that the Government had not really
0:03:38 > 0:03:41carried the people with them in the way they've responded to devolution
0:03:41 > 0:03:50at least in Wales. And then Lord Morris was saying that devolution
0:03:50 > 0:03:56was yet to be taken seriously. The Baroness was saying that the
0:03:56 > 0:03:59atmosphere is becoming increasingly negative. These are very unfortunate
0:03:59 > 0:04:04phrases to be using any situation where we are seeking to seek
0:04:04 > 0:04:10agreement. But then Lord Wallace said that, to accept these
0:04:10 > 0:04:18amendments would be a step forward. He was saying that it what it really
0:04:18 > 0:04:23cost the Government much trouble to accept the amendments. Given what
0:04:23 > 0:04:27they have been saying about their intentions and the use of powers
0:04:27 > 0:04:31which have been given to the Ministers of state by these three
0:04:31 > 0:04:36causes. What's, my point is this. It doesn't really look at the Minister
0:04:36 > 0:04:40searches his conscious thoroughly that they have very much to lose, if
0:04:40 > 0:04:50anything. At the same time, there is a lot to be gained because it would
0:04:50 > 0:04:52help to at least change the atmosphere which at the moment is so
0:04:52 > 0:04:57negative. He is made a step forward and clause seven which I appreciate
0:04:57 > 0:05:02that he has done it because he says he doesn't need to bother with the
0:05:02 > 0:05:07Scotland act because it will go to a report stage. I applaud that. Surely
0:05:07 > 0:05:17he might take the same step with clause nine and clause eight. But if
0:05:17 > 0:05:22so, why not just say so? Why not put these measures into the Bill and get
0:05:22 > 0:05:32this all over with? There is bad to take away from this debate. There's
0:05:32 > 0:05:40one other point. If you do put a closet this kind into clause seven,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42then people will get clause eight and nine say, it's not there. The
0:05:42 > 0:05:54situation is different. There's a lot in phrase for this... -- Lattin.
0:05:54 > 0:06:01That means that if you put one thing and you exclude the others. You need
0:06:01 > 0:06:04to look rather carefully at the wisdom of putting in a very sensible
0:06:04 > 0:06:11amendment and not reproducing it in clause eight and nine as well. These
0:06:11 > 0:06:15are thoughts which I hope we can take into discussions which I might
0:06:15 > 0:06:20have with the noble lord, the Minister. We look forward to the
0:06:20 > 0:06:23report stage when you will come forward with this other amendments.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27I think suffers this evening is concerned, that's as far as we can
0:06:27 > 0:06:32take the matter. But for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the
0:06:32 > 0:06:38amendment.Let this amendment be withdrawn. The amendment is by leave
0:06:38 > 0:06:45with John. Amendments 92 and 93. Not moved. Amendment 94. Lord Newby. Not
0:06:45 > 0:06:58moved. Amendment 90 five. Not moved. And 96. Not moved. 97. Not moved.
0:06:58 > 0:07:0998. Not moved. 99.
0:07:09 > 0:07:24know not moved amendment 101, not moved.101 A, not moved. 100 one B
0:07:24 > 0:07:36is withdrawn. 102 I'm afraid I have to introduce this very concisely.
0:07:36 > 0:07:37There are two
0:07:37 > 0:07:37to introduce this very concisely. There are two amendments undermine
0:07:37 > 0:07:48him at this group. Whether you seek to do is to qualified the extent
0:07:48 > 0:07:56given to Ministers to make... To which these clauses refer asking
0:07:56 > 0:08:00that they are not exercised without her consent of Scottish or Welsh
0:08:00 > 0:08:08Ministers. So far the provisions would be... Within the meaning given
0:08:08 > 0:08:15to that expression in the paragraph. My lords, part of these amendments
0:08:15 > 0:08:29is to respect the Constitution SI cost additional importance. It seems
0:08:29 > 0:08:36certainly in Cardiff and Edinburgh as a responsibility of the devolved
0:08:36 > 0:08:39authorities, they have that responsibility by virtue of the
0:08:39 > 0:08:44Democratic codes by virtue of which there were elected. Their position,
0:08:44 > 0:08:49and it seems to me, is that it should not be for UK Ministers to
0:08:49 > 0:08:54enter into that area, which is the devolved to them, without their
0:08:54 > 0:09:00consent. Especially in the exercise and other power as I referred to, to
0:09:00 > 0:09:04make any provision to clauses that could be made by an act of
0:09:04 > 0:09:15Parliament. I mentioned... In practise, the principal has been
0:09:15 > 0:09:22operated for quite a long time. In the way the dilution system has been
0:09:22 > 0:09:28developed to a fundamental statute. The problem is that these clauses
0:09:28 > 0:09:36fail to be reflected in practise and that does need to be corrected. It's
0:09:36 > 0:09:40just to accept the point in its statutory context. So far as the
0:09:40 > 0:09:46Ministers are concerned, this section. The Scotland act of 1998
0:09:46 > 0:09:55sets out the basic rule that insofar as exercising a rule, they have to
0:09:55 > 0:09:58be exercised by the Scottish Ministers instead by Ministers of
0:09:58 > 0:10:08the. Section 52 .1 but that rule is qualified by section 57.1 in the
0:10:08 > 0:10:12case of functions in relation to observing and implementing
0:10:12 > 0:10:19obligations under EU law. A member of the Scottish Government has no
0:10:19 > 0:10:36pride in making is subordinate... What section 57.1 does is provide...
0:10:36 > 0:10:44For the purposes set out in section two, subsection two of the European
0:10:44 > 0:10:50excerpt, 1972. No mention is made in the statute, of the consent of
0:10:50 > 0:10:56Scottish Ministers before that power is exercised in relation to EU law.
0:10:56 > 0:11:02But, this is how I am coming out to have toward these matters in
0:11:02 > 0:11:06practise, these brought the strike provisions are operated in practise
0:11:06 > 0:11:12by successive memoranda of understanding of dilution between
0:11:12 > 0:11:17the UK Government and the devolved institutions. We must recall that to
0:11:17 > 0:11:22begin with, the Government in an umbrella and the Government in
0:11:22 > 0:11:28Westminster were of the same persuasion. That of course assisted
0:11:28 > 0:11:34very much in the setting up a memoranda at common understanding.
0:11:34 > 0:11:43The latest of these memoranda was published in October 2013. The
0:11:43 > 0:11:50coordination of EU policy issues, memoranda and states that the UK
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Government wishes to invoke, the devolved administration is directly
0:11:52 > 0:12:00and directly as fully as possible on decision-making on UK decision
0:12:00 > 0:12:17matters that involve the devolved areas. Amongst other things, it is
0:12:17 > 0:12:22for the devolved administrations to consider in consultation how the EU
0:12:22 > 0:12:26obligations should be implemented and enforced. Including, whether
0:12:26 > 0:12:30they should be included by the devolved administration themselves
0:12:30 > 0:12:34separately, or by the UK or UK legislation. Ever since devolution,
0:12:34 > 0:12:46as I understand, it's been a matter of routine between Scotland and
0:12:46 > 0:12:50White Hall says these institutions were set up. This is important
0:12:50 > 0:12:53because it does enable the Scottish Government to fulfil the
0:12:53 > 0:12:56responsibilities that are being devolved to them without there being
0:12:56 > 0:13:04cut across by measures taken in Whitehall with other agreement. I
0:13:04 > 0:13:10think it's important to say that it is a system that has worked
0:13:10 > 0:13:16remarkably well, the cooperation between civil servants on both sides
0:13:16 > 0:13:22of the border and initiatives of these political agreements is not
0:13:22 > 0:13:26indicated for on both sides of the border to. Now the context in which
0:13:26 > 0:13:31the powers are given to Ministers of the crown, the clause 7.8, is
0:13:31 > 0:13:38different because we are leaving the EU behind. This bill is about the
0:13:38 > 0:13:41withdrawal process. We found that in the Bill has it stands the moment,
0:13:41 > 0:13:55section 15 seven .1, Scotland is being committed.
0:13:59 > 0:14:08... Their effect is that the power of the Scottish Ministers will be
0:14:08 > 0:14:14under restriction into EU, in relation to EU law, to retain BU Law
0:14:14 > 0:14:21which is similar to that in relation to EU law the present. But when we
0:14:21 > 0:14:26look at the clause, we see that the Ministers of the crop will have
0:14:26 > 0:14:33powers with those provisions to modify, retain BU Law in areas of P
0:14:33 > 0:14:40C Bass I policy. EU law. So the amendments which I am putting
0:14:40 > 0:14:47forward in this group, seeking to deal with the problem. There are
0:14:47 > 0:14:56provisions in schedules, and will provide EU laws being treated the
0:14:56 > 0:15:06same way as regards all competence. The problem is that they fail to
0:15:06 > 0:15:11recognise much of the problem with retaining EU laws will return with
0:15:11 > 0:15:14matters of the devolved competence of Scottish and Welsh governments.
0:15:14 > 0:15:27To deprive them of their... Would be very unfortunate and would create a
0:15:27 > 0:15:31situation where both in Cardiff and Edinburgh regarded as quite
0:15:31 > 0:15:37unacceptable. It would mean that while policy areas are in devolved
0:15:37 > 0:15:44competence that arrays no issues of retaining EU lied all, would be
0:15:44 > 0:15:46fully for the devolved administration to do with
0:15:46 > 0:15:51themselves. We have policy areas within the same devolved areas which
0:15:51 > 0:15:57would be subject to provisions in the Bill without any need to get the
0:15:57 > 0:16:01consent of the devolved government. The point I'm trying to make as
0:16:01 > 0:16:05briefly as I can, is that there is a recipe for confusion and
0:16:05 > 0:16:14mismanagement which would be in the buddy 's interest. Milos, those
0:16:14 > 0:16:25remarks that have been making art -- my lords. It applies to clause eight
0:16:25 > 0:16:38as well. My point is really,, and on these two clauses and seeking try to
0:16:38 > 0:16:42avoid the risk of confusion and mismanagement, which at the praise
0:16:42 > 0:16:45and is avoided by the common understanding of the memoranda which
0:16:45 > 0:16:52works so well. My lords, I hope that you are willing to accept these
0:16:52 > 0:17:01amendments.There has the best thing to do I can do is back to move and
0:17:01 > 0:17:16then we can get it to discussion. Page six line 25 amendment 103, 102,
0:17:16 > 0:17:21my lords I will speak to amendments to the amendments tabled in my name.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25I shall be extremely brief because many of the arguments have already
0:17:25 > 0:17:30been rehearsed. Again, I believe these amendments raise issues that
0:17:30 > 0:17:43are fundamental. Amendments to include Northern Ireland, it was
0:17:43 > 0:17:48very carefully constructed and delicately balance as my balance.
0:17:48 > 0:17:54The settlement the best interest of people in Northern Ireland. Since
0:17:54 > 0:17:581998, the prowess of been enhanced, with a transfer of police powers in
0:17:58 > 0:18:102010 to the Assembly, in an act go to this Parliament allowing for.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15Given the delicate negotiations that took place to reach that settlement
0:18:15 > 0:18:21and the very nature of identity politics in Northern Ireland, I hope
0:18:21 > 0:18:30the Ministers agree, should be to give their consent to any move to
0:18:30 > 0:18:40make red... Regulations that would encroach on the Northern Ireland
0:18:40 > 0:18:53assembly.... I beg to move.I would just like to ask whether it would be
0:18:53 > 0:19:01possible to deal with his point by dealing with the memorandum I can
0:19:01 > 0:19:08see the force of that.But I don't know whether that is an option that
0:19:08 > 0:19:14is available in the present time. So far as reassuring the parties both
0:19:14 > 0:19:25in Cardiff and entire Edinburgh,, it's a matter of trying to find a
0:19:25 > 0:19:30way of divine way to soften the atmosphere. I haven't been
0:19:30 > 0:19:34discussing clause 11 differently -- deliberately because it is
0:19:34 > 0:19:59different.Later tonight on it in July of 1998, I was sitting, a Lord
0:19:59 > 0:20:13junked his feet to respond the amendment. The Scotland build he
0:20:15 > 0:20:21said -- IM resisting that he said clause 27 makes it clear that
0:20:21 > 0:20:26dilution of legislative competence to the Scottish Government does not
0:20:26 > 0:20:29affect the ability of Westminster to legislate for Scotland even in
0:20:29 > 0:20:36relation to devolved matters. Indeed as a paragraph of white papers
0:20:36 > 0:20:40explain, there could be instances where it would be more convenient
0:20:40 > 0:20:44for legislation on devolved matter to be passed by the United Kingdom
0:20:44 > 0:20:48Parliament. However, as happened in Northern Ireland early in the
0:20:48 > 0:20:51century, we would expect a convention to be established that
0:20:51 > 0:20:58when Mr would not normally legislate on devolved matter without the
0:20:58 > 0:21:02consent of the Scottish Parliament. He continued, if problems do arise
0:21:02 > 0:21:09the solution, the Scottish solving the matter through political
0:21:09 > 0:21:18dialogue. That is the difference between Parliaments. That is what
0:21:18 > 0:21:21happened another political systems. I cannot believe that it is belong
0:21:21 > 0:21:27-- might our wit to develop such a convention. It's the use of the word
0:21:27 > 0:21:32normally was off the cuff and I imagine that the Lord it would've
0:21:32 > 0:21:40been a surprise, that will become something that would be subject to
0:21:40 > 0:21:47such intense examination as it has become in subsequent years. .The
0:21:47 > 0:21:52word normally was certainly not off-the-cuff. Lengthy debate that
0:21:52 > 0:22:01we've had. You will find it was very considerable debate. The wisdom of
0:22:01 > 0:22:07including what he said,
0:22:07 > 0:22:13I think the noble lord misses the point. I'm saying that is where the
0:22:13 > 0:22:19word normally first originated in 1998. No doubt hit has received
0:22:19 > 0:22:25considerable debate sense. I have listened to debate on the topic. My
0:22:25 > 0:22:29lords, the problem is a lack of trust. This is been mentioned by a
0:22:29 > 0:22:34number of local Billy -- noble Lords.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42A number of interventions between the United Kingdom government and
0:22:42 > 0:22:46the Scottish Government and no doubt a lack of trust between the laboured
0:22:46 > 0:22:55government in Wales and the Government in Westminster. It really
0:22:55 > 0:23:01derives it seems to me from the suggestion that there should be an
0:23:01 > 0:23:07imposition by the Westminster government on areas which are
0:23:07 > 0:23:16currently devolved to the Parliament. Lords, I look at the
0:23:16 > 0:23:20leave campaign's open letter on the 14th of June, 2016, a week before
0:23:20 > 0:23:26the referendum where they said there is more than enough money to ensure
0:23:26 > 0:23:31that those who now get funding from the EU including universities,
0:23:31 > 0:23:36scientist, family farmers, regional farms, cultural organisations and
0:23:36 > 0:23:41others will continue to do so while also ensuring that we save money
0:23:41 > 0:23:53that can be spent on our priorities.
0:23:55 > 0:24:00The leader of the Conservatives and Wales, Mr Andrew Davis said that
0:24:00 > 0:24:03today's announcement is usually welcome and further evidence that
0:24:03 > 0:24:09Wales would be better off as the European Union. We now know that
0:24:09 > 0:24:13funding for reached in every part of the UK including Wales will be safe
0:24:13 > 0:24:19if we vote to leave. The First Minister for Wales said this. Those
0:24:19 > 0:24:24who signed this letter have no mark power to deliver on it that my
0:24:24 > 0:24:36children's pet cat. However, lords, the referendum was one by the leaf
0:24:36 > 0:24:42action and in the conservative manifesto 2017 the proposal was to
0:24:42 > 0:24:47set up a UK Shared Prosperity Fund. This is from the manifesto of
0:24:47 > 0:24:51austere said. We will use the structural funds money that comes
0:24:51 > 0:24:57back to the UK following Brexit to create a United Kingdom Shared
0:24:57 > 0:25:01Prosperity Fund specifically designed to reduce inequalities
0:25:01 > 0:25:07between communities across our four nations. We will consult widely on
0:25:07 > 0:25:13the design of the fund, including with the devolved administrations,
0:25:13 > 0:25:18local authorities, businesses and public bodies. My lords, the word
0:25:18 > 0:25:23that was used there in that manifesto was consult. And not,
0:25:23 > 0:25:28agree. Certainly there was no suggestion that they would look for
0:25:28 > 0:25:36consent. Similarly. And the agreement with the DU peak, the
0:25:36 > 0:25:40paper that was published in June 2017, the UK Government financial
0:25:40 > 0:25:45support for Northern Ireland said, Northern Ireland's needs will be
0:25:45 > 0:25:49properly reflected in the fund which will benefit all parts of the United
0:25:49 > 0:25:54Kingdom. So it seems that the intention as expressed in that
0:25:54 > 0:26:00manifesto was for the United Kingdom government at Westminster to hold
0:26:00 > 0:26:05the money back so that the structural funds and Dole at the
0:26:05 > 0:26:10money as it thinks fit without any requirement for agreement. That's
0:26:10 > 0:26:24where the mistrust intensified. The position is this, Lord Morris
0:26:24 > 0:26:31mentioned it earlier, ... If in taking over the rules and
0:26:31 > 0:26:38regulations relating to regional development, the money were to be
0:26:38 > 0:26:44distributed on the formula, Wales would be significantly worse off.
0:26:44 > 0:26:49The Bevan foundation and their report published in conjunction with
0:26:49 > 0:26:53the Welsh local Government Association last October said this,
0:26:53 > 0:27:00the estimated allocation of funds for Wales using the Barnard formula
0:27:00 > 0:27:07between 2014 and 2020 would be not the actual to .2 euros billion but
0:27:07 > 0:27:12just 562 million euros. In other words, if you up by the Barnard
0:27:12 > 0:27:17formula to the structural funds, Wales would of got a quarter of what
0:27:17 > 0:27:23it actually did get or is promised up until 2020. We really do not know
0:27:23 > 0:27:29what is going to happen after that. No commitments have been made. If
0:27:29 > 0:27:35this clause remains unamended, the United Kingdom government will have
0:27:35 > 0:27:39the power to take over all the rules and regulations relating to regional
0:27:39 > 0:27:47development and to agriculture and fisheries and many other areas and
0:27:47 > 0:27:49change them and develop other structures as it thinks fit. A B
0:27:49 > 0:27:56that's a good thing, providing the devolved administration's consent to
0:27:56 > 0:28:03it. I cannot understand why the Government will resist the concept
0:28:03 > 0:28:07of consent, agreement. Surely that is the way forward. I think the only
0:28:07 > 0:28:11reason they do resist it is because they don't trust the people that
0:28:11 > 0:28:18they are negotiating with. They are the Unionist party and United
0:28:18 > 0:28:22Kingdom that doesn't show much for United Kingdom if you can't trust to
0:28:22 > 0:28:27the degree of getting sensible agreement that the other partners to
0:28:27 > 0:28:35the kingdom. That's what the fuss is about. I support these amendments.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39Following on what the noble lord has said, surely it is a responsibility
0:28:39 > 0:28:45of a government of the United Kingdom and this is a point which is
0:28:45 > 0:28:53often made by Scottish Nationalist but one of the parties but by the
0:28:53 > 0:28:55Scottish Nationalists is that we mustn't leave the European Union
0:28:55 > 0:28:59because we are so dependent on the single market which is the European
0:28:59 > 0:29:03Union. What I think we should be focusing on here tonight is the
0:29:03 > 0:29:08single market which is the United Kingdom. Listening to the noble
0:29:08 > 0:29:12lord, what would happen for example, taking his point about the Barnard
0:29:12 > 0:29:15formula, he's right the Barnard formula is extremely generous to
0:29:15 > 0:29:22Scotland and unfair to Wales. In my opinion, resources should be
0:29:22 > 0:29:27distributed according to need and not according to some days that is
0:29:27 > 0:29:33been amended according to population. If it is to be the case
0:29:33 > 0:29:37that the Welsh Parliament and the Scottish Parliament are to have
0:29:37 > 0:29:41vetoes on these matters, what is the prospect of whales being able to get
0:29:41 > 0:29:45a fairer share of its going to be vetoed by Scotland? Is a matter for
0:29:45 > 0:29:50the United Kingdom government to decide for the United Kingdom as a
0:29:50 > 0:29:53whole and for the single market that is the United Kingdom as a whole. I
0:29:53 > 0:30:03have to say to the noble lord, I think his amendments are naive. We
0:30:03 > 0:30:07are faced with the administration in Scotland which is absolutely
0:30:07 > 0:30:12determined to break up United Kingdom. That is their purpose. We
0:30:12 > 0:30:19can have all the talks until the crack of doom with demonstration and
0:30:19 > 0:30:26they will... This civil servants will be taking exactly the kind of
0:30:26 > 0:30:30sensible, tight medic, legalistic approach that Lord Hope is doing.
0:30:30 > 0:30:37The politician X have another agenda. Which is to destroy the
0:30:37 > 0:30:41United Kingdom. As seed Unionist, I have an agenda to make sure that
0:30:41 > 0:30:45every part of the United Kingdom is treated fairly. And that there is no
0:30:45 > 0:30:51veto for any part of the United Kingdom. This we have for
0:30:51 > 0:30:57Parliaments in the United Kingdom. We only have fun United Kingdom
0:30:57 > 0:31:02Parliament and that is this. When lords who will produced his
0:31:02 > 0:31:06convention he was greeted with great enthusiasm by the Scottish
0:31:06 > 0:31:11Parliament. At the noble lord looks at the record, he will find this
0:31:11 > 0:31:14Parliament has legislated for the Scottish Parliament to a
0:31:14 > 0:31:18considerable degree. Mainly because they've only saw for one and a half
0:31:18 > 0:31:20days a week until recently in legislation and haven't had time to
0:31:20 > 0:31:27do that. Now we are in the absurd position where the posturing of
0:31:27 > 0:31:31Ministers when a perfectly sensible accommodation has been offered by
0:31:31 > 0:31:38the United Kingdom Parliament... It's about trying to create division
0:31:38 > 0:31:41and turn everything into a constitutional crisis. It's against
0:31:41 > 0:31:44the interests of having a single market. Single market which they say
0:31:44 > 0:31:51is essential to the Scottish economy. Their position is that they
0:31:51 > 0:31:58don't want any of these... To come to Wales or Scotland or to the
0:31:58 > 0:32:02United Kingdom. They wish it to remain in Brussels. It is an utterly
0:32:02 > 0:32:09hypocritical stance. They would rather this is decided in
0:32:09 > 0:32:15Brussels... This is political gamesmanship and we are foolish if
0:32:15 > 0:32:21we accede to it. Why we should do is proceed with the Bill unamended and
0:32:21 > 0:32:25ensure that the United Kingdom government can work with the
0:32:25 > 0:32:29Parliaments of the various parts of the United Kingdom to preserve that
0:32:29 > 0:32:33single market which incidentally is worth four times as much to the
0:32:33 > 0:32:37people of Scotland in terms of income and jobs and everything else
0:32:37 > 0:32:41in the single market that they report to defend which is that of
0:32:41 > 0:32:49the European Union. This is a lot of heat and waffle perpetrated by
0:32:49 > 0:32:55people who don't like the results of the referendum and two her terribly
0:32:55 > 0:32:57keen on referendums but find it difficult to accept the results of
0:32:57 > 0:33:02referendums. The argument we have to have another referendum on
0:33:02 > 0:33:06independence, another referendum on Europe, I do say to the noble lord
0:33:06 > 0:33:09who is normally very courteous, to the noble lord who is normally very
0:33:09 > 0:33:12courteous, too described in the terms that he did the 17 part 4
0:33:12 > 0:33:21million people who to leave in the United Kingdom. 400,000 of them were
0:33:21 > 0:33:24Scottish Nationalists. To describe them and us pejorative terms I think
0:33:24 > 0:33:28he is following the course of his leader who use disgraceful language
0:33:28 > 0:33:37to insult the 17.4 VM people only this week. I hope the House will
0:33:37 > 0:33:40reject these moments and we can get on with the task of making a success
0:33:40 > 0:33:43of United Kingdom which at last has the powers and authority to ensure
0:33:43 > 0:33:48that all parts of our country benefit from being able to determine
0:33:48 > 0:33:56our own affairs.I'm most grateful to my noble friend. It was very
0:33:56 > 0:33:58interesting speech that he gave but it doesn't seem to bear any relation
0:33:58 > 0:34:02to the amendments that are before the House this evening. I think the
0:34:02 > 0:34:07amendments go to the heart of obtaining the consent of the
0:34:07 > 0:34:12Scottish people as expressed through the Scottish Parliament. He is a
0:34:12 > 0:34:16Democrat and I am a Democrat. Does he not agree that the amendments go
0:34:16 > 0:34:21to the heart of devolution and that is what we are trying to maintain in
0:34:21 > 0:34:26particular, the amendments that Lord Hope has moved this evening?If the
0:34:26 > 0:34:29noble lady would like me to repeat my speech again when she is
0:34:29 > 0:34:36listening then I will happily do so but I don't think... When she says a
0:34:36 > 0:34:38ghost heart of democracy, these are matters for the night kingdom
0:34:38 > 0:34:45Parliament. There is no veto for any of the devolved administrations.
0:34:45 > 0:34:50We've debated endlessly. This moment would give a veto. It would mean
0:34:50 > 0:34:54that the tail was wagging the dog. It would mean that the Scottish
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Parliament could prevent what was in the interests of the rest of the
0:34:57 > 0:35:02United Kingdom. That is not democracy. The noble lady needs to
0:35:02 > 0:35:06address the words on the order paper, the words of the amendment
0:35:06 > 0:35:10and listen to the arguments instead of pursuing her ideological
0:35:10 > 0:35:16determination to reverse the decision of the British people.I
0:35:16 > 0:35:21hope very much that the speech made by the global Lord will be reported
0:35:21 > 0:35:26loud and clearly in Scotland. I have no doubt there will only be one set
0:35:26 > 0:35:29of winners coming from that. The whole of the last debate in this
0:35:29 > 0:35:32debate has centred around the question of trust. I'm not sure
0:35:32 > 0:35:36whether comments we have just heard are going to help create that trust
0:35:36 > 0:35:43in future. Lord Forsyth said that his friends and Scotland were
0:35:43 > 0:35:46ignoring the English single market while building up the European
0:35:46 > 0:35:51single market. But the European single market includes the UK single
0:35:51 > 0:35:55market. It is one single market. It's a bigger one. Those were
0:35:55 > 0:35:59looking to that single market are looking outward, not just in word
0:35:59 > 0:36:03and are restricting their boundaries just around the coasts of these
0:36:03 > 0:36:10islands.I said no such thing. I said that the single market which is
0:36:10 > 0:36:13the European market is a quarter of the size of the single market which
0:36:13 > 0:36:18is the United Kingdom for Scotland. It may well be but the European
0:36:18 > 0:36:21single market includes England at this point in time. In other words,
0:36:21 > 0:36:26they are not losing anything. The main point is a point made by Lord
0:36:26 > 0:36:32Thomas with regard to resources.If you're asked to trust up by giving a
0:36:32 > 0:36:38veto to Westminster into the UK Government which essentially is
0:36:38 > 0:36:40what's coming through in a number of these clauses whether David O will
0:36:40 > 0:36:46be used at all and anyway, the power to impose policies in areas that
0:36:46 > 0:36:54have been that clearly is
0:36:54 > 0:36:58was at we've had experience as the noble lord mentioned of regional
0:36:58 > 0:37:07policy.The Baroness will remember. The problem is that we had in the
0:37:07 > 0:37:12early days. I'm getting Westminster and Whitehall to pass over money
0:37:12 > 0:37:17that is coming for Wales and not falling into the Treasury in London.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21It wasn't until Mr Barnier intervened with the then Chancellor
0:37:21 > 0:37:30Gordon Brown, then a £442 billion was passed over to Wales and it was
0:37:30 > 0:37:33held back and Whitehall in the Treasury. And that is the background
0:37:33 > 0:37:37of trust that we have. If we are going to build a future of trusses I
0:37:37 > 0:37:40want to see happen between the nations of this Islands. It has to
0:37:40 > 0:37:46be recognition that in some areas, though leadership is coming from
0:37:46 > 0:37:52crumbled regime. In other areas, responsibility lies here. There will
0:37:52 > 0:37:55be grey areas, but we have to make sure that there was a mechanism that
0:37:55 > 0:38:00respects each other for sorting out those grey areas. And the attention
0:38:00 > 0:38:03is not given to that side of the argument. If we can concentrate on
0:38:03 > 0:38:14that, I believe that amendment moved by Lord Hall. If you could consider
0:38:14 > 0:38:20their request -- Lord Hope. To respond to his proposal in this
0:38:20 > 0:38:24context as a way of showing goodwill towards getting some understanding
0:38:24 > 0:38:27of the other context will be coming onto, then perhaps can start make
0:38:27 > 0:38:31some progress. And I asked him noble lord and Minister to invite those
0:38:31 > 0:38:36who are interested in those matters to meet the try to get some proposal
0:38:36 > 0:38:40coming from here that could at least go some way towards answering the
0:38:40 > 0:38:45problems that are being felt in Cardiff and Edinburgh. This is an
0:38:45 > 0:38:53insoluble. But goodwill that it isn't always Avenue -- evident here.
0:38:53 > 0:38:59Two of the amendments are removed some time ago now. -- that were
0:38:59 > 0:39:05moved sometime. I should first declare that I am a member of the
0:39:05 > 0:39:11commission. And that commission was mentioned and funding to Wales has
0:39:11 > 0:39:13indeed been a concern. With regard to these amendments in the core
0:39:13 > 0:39:19issue of trust. It comes to mind that there was a wise saying, trust
0:39:19 > 0:39:25arise on foot and leaves on horseback. It seems as if we'd had a
0:39:25 > 0:39:28few galloping horses in this chamber this evening. We do have to look
0:39:28 > 0:39:33forward. In the new world that we will face after Brexit, which will
0:39:33 > 0:39:38not be easy, nobody is now pretending that it will be easy. We
0:39:38 > 0:39:44do need to be a United Kingdom, and we do need to pull together. I do
0:39:44 > 0:39:48hope that the Minister, given his remarks to the previous group of the
0:39:48 > 0:39:54members -- amendments. That he intimated that he's that sincerely
0:39:54 > 0:39:59want to bring parties together, and have some restoration of trust and
0:39:59 > 0:40:02some resolution of working with forward, that he will be able to
0:40:02 > 0:40:08work with others to achieve that. And that he will give serious
0:40:08 > 0:40:10consideration to these amendments, because there were not put down to
0:40:10 > 0:40:18divide, they were put down, with a view to try to establish a degree of
0:40:18 > 0:40:26reconciliation restored trust and to find working with forward.If I can
0:40:26 > 0:40:30deny usually ebullient self with particular point. Thus I if I can
0:40:30 > 0:40:36be. I admit I being of washing extraction, having a Welsh speaking
0:40:36 > 0:40:42father. You spoke entirely from the point of view of someone who has
0:40:42 > 0:40:53been Bruce. I would be on the side being bruised, by the activities, of
0:40:53 > 0:40:57the Scottish Nationalists. But actually I do think that there is
0:40:57 > 0:41:06here a debate. A debate which is not about, ... There is a debate about
0:41:06 > 0:41:12trust. And I do say to my honourable friend, to say we could all work
0:41:12 > 0:41:21when this government, a coalition government, a labour government
0:41:21 > 0:41:26can't continue this utterly unfair system of the Barnier formula that
0:41:26 > 0:41:34has done such damage to Wales. And label government retained as the
0:41:34 > 0:41:38noble lord retained, large sums of money rather than pass it on in the
0:41:38 > 0:41:43system in which -- which were previously had. My noble friend
0:41:43 > 0:41:53knows very well that I believe in a single market. I don't have the
0:41:53 > 0:41:57view. I look for a single market that continues with the whole of
0:41:57 > 0:42:02Europe. Which is of course, is of great benefit to all of us. And I am
0:42:02 > 0:42:06sad that he should try to remove it from us. But I don't think that it
0:42:06 > 0:42:15helps in this debate to not to face the issue of very, very considerable
0:42:15 > 0:42:27lack of trust. In both Scotland and Wales, there is a history of not,
0:42:27 > 0:42:34getting except almost only by force, a fair share. Scotland has now
0:42:34 > 0:42:38managed to get its Avenue position that we now feel is the opposite.
0:42:38 > 0:42:44That's how the Barnier formula works. I think it would be good for
0:42:44 > 0:42:48the Government of Scotland to occasionally recognise what a
0:42:48 > 0:42:52favourable position history has printed. But because of the way
0:42:52 > 0:42:56these amendments are drawn and indeed put together, I would've like
0:42:56 > 0:43:03this House to fail to recognise the specific and particular position of
0:43:03 > 0:43:08Wales. Not least because of the specialist position in which the
0:43:08 > 0:43:14North of Ireland have managed to get themselves for political reasons,
0:43:14 > 0:43:22and the historic position in which Scotland is in now. It's merely to
0:43:22 > 0:43:28say to my noble friend the Minister for whom have enormous respect, and
0:43:28 > 0:43:33if I may say so his last speech in summing up was an exemplary one show
0:43:33 > 0:43:37out government can deal with issues in a way which at least makes a
0:43:37 > 0:43:43house feel that it is listened to, and I'd like to thank you for that,
0:43:43 > 0:43:49it was a very very different us. There is a real feeling among people
0:43:49 > 0:43:56in Wales that history doesn't help people believe that the United
0:43:56 > 0:44:00Kingdom government is going to be entirely evenhanded in this issue.
0:44:00 > 0:44:08Therefore, is there way in which in this of withdrawal bill, where up
0:44:08 > 0:44:11Wales has benefited very significantly for its membership in
0:44:11 > 0:44:15the European Union, if that is being taken away, is that her way in which
0:44:15 > 0:44:21the Government can at least give greater confidence to Wales, because
0:44:21 > 0:44:28if it doesn't I fear that the ability to come to a compromise will
0:44:28 > 0:44:33be very, very, considerably made considerably more difficult. The
0:44:33 > 0:44:43point I want to make, I do fear my noble friend cup was partisan in a
0:44:43 > 0:44:48way in which it concentrated only on Scotland. He was kind enough to say
0:44:48 > 0:44:55he knew about Wales. And I do about Wales. Let me just say, could you
0:44:55 > 0:45:03please give us more confidence and if my noble friend who's all
0:45:03 > 0:45:07named... I would very much like him to give us a feeling that this
0:45:07 > 0:45:10government will in some way find a matter in which this is not
0:45:10 > 0:45:17appropriate to give confidence within this bill.Viler is a
0:45:17 > 0:45:26cosignature to the amendment. Let me make a few points. To the record.
0:45:26 > 0:45:36The Lord Hope of Craighead. He said... There is a liberal Democrat
0:45:36 > 0:45:38coalition has got his start government that's an important
0:45:38 > 0:45:50difference. -- in the Scottish Government. But the memorandum of
0:45:50 > 0:45:56understanding between the United kingdom government and Scottish
0:45:56 > 0:46:02Government foot. My experience in the time,, I don't actually remember
0:46:02 > 0:46:12any issue when there was any major dispute. It's also fair to say. It
0:46:12 > 0:46:22got very technical indeed since the Scottish National Party,. Whole
0:46:22 > 0:46:24range of technical issues, to actually get some common-sense
0:46:24 > 0:46:28agreement. That's what I do think, we should persevere and try to that.
0:46:28 > 0:46:33The point made by the Lady Byron is Finley, the point underlying those
0:46:33 > 0:46:38amendments, an effort tube building blocks for trust. I want to repeat
0:46:38 > 0:46:42what the point was made in a previous debate. I want to say the
0:46:42 > 0:46:49noble lord, that of very much appreciate his response, Apple
0:46:49 > 0:46:54responsive, cover has a response. He did talk about allowing some veto
0:46:54 > 0:47:03areas. Some modifications to the couple night, I don't get anything I
0:47:03 > 0:47:10said with getting those applications. You wanted... I do
0:47:10 > 0:47:20think that there is something we can build on there.I share low
0:47:20 > 0:47:26dividends's admiration and the way he responded to it. I thought he was
0:47:26 > 0:47:33a rather brilliant performer of the work of the fire extinguisher. There
0:47:33 > 0:47:42was a moment spread over all of us. And calm ensued. It was a brilliant
0:47:42 > 0:47:49performance. I am sorry that this time he has to deal with that sort
0:47:49 > 0:48:03of pyrotechnics pyromaniac. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, I have always
0:48:03 > 0:48:10thought it was rather a pity that Lord Forsyth of Drumlean's attacks
0:48:10 > 0:48:21on the party now governing Scotland are responded to only by a Welshman.
0:48:21 > 0:48:27Responded very well, but personally as a Scotsman who does not support
0:48:27 > 0:48:32the Scottish National Party, it seems to me as rather easy trick to
0:48:32 > 0:48:37score pyrotechnical victories against an opponent who is not in
0:48:37 > 0:48:46the room. I do feel also, that trust is what this is all about. I can see
0:48:46 > 0:48:52nothing wrong with this amendment. I cannot see any reason why Ministers
0:48:52 > 0:48:59should end by this amendment now. If the cats, a discussion needs to
0:48:59 > 0:49:13start and it seems to me that that the party in office -- to install
0:49:13 > 0:49:19the party in mode in office in Edinburgh, maybe their motives,
0:49:19 > 0:49:24maybe not the motives of the explain with a published a perfectly
0:49:24 > 0:49:31reasonable economic analysis at the end of last year, which established,
0:49:31 > 0:49:37I thought it established, very clearly that damage would create a
0:49:37 > 0:49:40Scotland from leaving the SIngle Market. And the scale of the damage
0:49:40 > 0:49:45was almost exactly the same as we have now seen in the Treasury
0:49:45 > 0:49:53analysis for the United Kingdom as a whole. The same numbers pop up in
0:49:53 > 0:50:00both studies. The Scots, they're not being unreasonable or unnecessarily
0:50:00 > 0:50:07malicious. When they say that they prefer, they would prefer to remain
0:50:07 > 0:50:12in the SIngle Market. Of course, the market of the United Kingdom is more
0:50:12 > 0:50:15important to Scotland than a market of the rest of Europe that's not the
0:50:15 > 0:50:22point. They don't want to have to choose. And that seems to me to be
0:50:22 > 0:50:27fairly reasonable position to adopt. And I really don't think it helps
0:50:27 > 0:50:39establish trust to insult them.I had no intention to speak. I want to
0:50:39 > 0:50:47entirely indoors with the noble lord said in moving this. I would also
0:50:47 > 0:50:53like to refute any allegations that I am an ideologue. I always
0:50:53 > 0:50:57considered myself to be a prime at this. I think it's also very unfair
0:50:57 > 0:51:04to impute a position on a party that is not represented in this House and
0:51:04 > 0:51:06cannot answer back any of the allegations that were made
0:51:06 > 0:51:13previously. I believe that this whole amendment goes to the heart of
0:51:13 > 0:51:16consent and trust that has been debated here at great length. I
0:51:16 > 0:51:20think I should also declare that I do have a vested interest in these
0:51:20 > 0:51:25matters because I'm doing some work, I visited the officers that Lord
0:51:25 > 0:51:33Forsyth of Drumlean open, the water commission for Scotland, is doing
0:51:33 > 0:51:37some great work across the European Union as indeed the Scottish --
0:51:37 > 0:51:42Scottish water and providing us it runs that -- assistance. Hopefully
0:51:42 > 0:51:48that continues after Brexit day. I do not see that this is moved or
0:51:48 > 0:51:54spoken to by Lord Hope or any of the other honourable members. This is
0:51:54 > 0:52:00simply an effort to bring the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish
0:52:00 > 0:52:06with the Government.
0:52:06 > 0:52:12Good think the noble lord took participated in the debate on this
0:52:12 > 0:52:17group of amendments. In particular think Lord Hope and the noble lady
0:52:17 > 0:52:23for moving the amendment. I will seek to deal with the substance of
0:52:23 > 0:52:27this and try to pick up very briefly some of the points that were made in
0:52:27 > 0:52:35debate. Amendments 102, 120... Seek to place requirement for UK
0:52:35 > 0:52:39Ministers to the consent of all Ministers when using clause 71 which
0:52:39 > 0:52:42I think probably want arise now but I'm happy to discuss that further
0:52:42 > 0:52:45beach-side think we would have exhausted that by ringing the
0:52:45 > 0:52:54proposals forward our report. In areas of devolved competence. I
0:52:54 > 0:53:00should stress that the concurrent powers in this bill do not in any
0:53:00 > 0:53:03way undermine the devolution settlements. They get the UK
0:53:03 > 0:53:06Government and the devolved administration the tools required to
0:53:06 > 0:53:11respond to it is a shared challenge of ensuring the functioning of our
0:53:11 > 0:53:13statute book and a pragmatic and collaborative manner which reflects
0:53:13 > 0:53:18current practise and I stress has been the norm for some time. I think
0:53:18 > 0:53:23I made this point and the last group of amendments. An example of this
0:53:23 > 0:53:27can be found at the new schedule three A in the Government of Wales
0:53:27 > 0:53:33act 2006 which lists no less than 34 laws containing current functions
0:53:33 > 0:53:37for United Kingdom and Welsh Ministers including powers to make
0:53:37 > 0:53:42subordinate legislation. I should also highlight section two of the
0:53:42 > 0:53:45European Communities Act 1972 itself which is concurrent and has
0:53:45 > 0:53:51routinely been used to make a single second of regulations to implement
0:53:51 > 0:53:55directives... Take for example the marine Works environmental impact
0:53:55 > 0:54:03assessments regulations 2007. If a deficiency arises within the
0:54:03 > 0:54:08statutory instrument we all agree on the best way to correct it, it makes
0:54:08 > 0:54:13little sense for demonstrations to make poor sets up... This is of
0:54:13 > 0:54:17course compounded by the volume of legislation that will be needed in
0:54:17 > 0:54:22this House and did deed and the default legislators to ensure the
0:54:22 > 0:54:26proper functioning of our laws after exit day. Our approach in this bill
0:54:26 > 0:54:31is to mirror that effect and can can you working clapboard of Lee with
0:54:31 > 0:54:33default administrations which is certainly the norm full stop to
0:54:33 > 0:54:37ensure that our statute book is fully functioning on exit. This is
0:54:37 > 0:54:41not been a cause of conflict in the past. There is certainly been
0:54:41 > 0:54:46differences. Few and far between. We do not leave it to be a cause of
0:54:46 > 0:54:51conflict and the future. We cannot compromise the flexibility provided
0:54:51 > 0:54:54for by the concurrent power that allows us and that devolved
0:54:54 > 0:54:57demonstrations to benefit from shared working. This is crucial for
0:54:57 > 0:55:02us to make it considerable task that lies ahead in order to complete,
0:55:02 > 0:55:06functioning statute book on exit day. May I remind noble Lords of the
0:55:06 > 0:55:09clear commitment the Government has made that we will not normally use
0:55:09 > 0:55:12the powers in this way without the agreement of the devolved
0:55:12 > 0:55:16administrations. Happy to restate that. It's there in black and white
0:55:16 > 0:55:21in the delegated powers memorandum and in written evidence to the
0:55:21 > 0:55:24Constitution committee. I've repeated it here today. I do take
0:55:24 > 0:55:32serious note about my noble friend Lord MacKay suggested about the
0:55:32 > 0:55:35possibility of a memorandum of understanding and I would like to
0:55:35 > 0:55:40take that away and have a look at that. Noble lords have asked why
0:55:40 > 0:55:44such a commitment is not involved on the face of the Bill and I would be
0:55:44 > 0:55:53happy to look at this with them. There can be no doubt the commitment
0:55:53 > 0:55:58the Government has made to seek the agreement of the devolved
0:55:58 > 0:56:01administration on these matters. I hope that does offer some
0:56:01 > 0:56:04reassurance. If I can pick up once made by noble lords during the
0:56:04 > 0:56:10debate. Thanking the noble lord Hope for the constructive ways that he is
0:56:10 > 0:56:15moved the set of amendments and indicate I'm happy to talk about
0:56:15 > 0:56:23this further ahead of research. The bank the noble lady baroness. I
0:56:23 > 0:56:25understand her seeking the best interest for Northern Ireland and
0:56:25 > 0:56:35they must be treated and precisely the same way. For his suggestion
0:56:35 > 0:56:37about the memorandum of understanding which I would like to
0:56:37 > 0:56:43take away and looked out further. The noble lord Thomas very
0:56:43 > 0:56:50far-reaching and points of Barnett which certainly we made some headway
0:56:50 > 0:56:54on this when I was in the Assembly. Not because I was in the Assembly
0:56:54 > 0:56:57but I do remember some headway being made on that. It's an issue that is
0:56:57 > 0:57:06still there. Far beyond this bellow. Let alone this amendment. He made
0:57:06 > 0:57:09the serious point as did others about the importance of trust which
0:57:09 > 0:57:14I take very seriously. I think the noble lady. I think trust is
0:57:14 > 0:57:20something that is important. We do need to build. My noble friend of
0:57:20 > 0:57:28his most deadly when he is seeking the praise me. Bound to take that
0:57:28 > 0:57:31and agree with them so I thank him very much indeed for his kind
0:57:31 > 0:57:35comments. He does speak with authority and with understanding
0:57:35 > 0:57:40particularly of Wales and once again, of the importance of trust.
0:57:40 > 0:57:47Again, I think the point made by Lord Kerr of the importance of that
0:57:47 > 0:57:52in our discussions and we can discuss this further. I think Lord
0:57:52 > 0:57:56Wallace for clarifying the point. I'm sorry if I did... I take the
0:57:56 > 0:58:07point. Lord Forsyth make some very serious points about the dangers of
0:58:07 > 0:58:12the unintended consequences of legislation and we do have to be
0:58:12 > 0:58:16careful about. I take that point. That said, I think there are serious
0:58:16 > 0:58:21issues as my noble friend Baroness McIntosh also reminded us of the
0:58:21 > 0:58:25importance of building up trust. She reminded us of how we all have
0:58:25 > 0:58:30interests in different parts of the country. It isn't as if we are not
0:58:30 > 0:58:34talking about a union that mean something. We all have relations,
0:58:34 > 0:58:37friends and interests in different parts of our country. We have shared
0:58:37 > 0:58:46interest in getting this right. I'm happy to go way and report with the
0:58:46 > 0:58:49suggestion Lord Wigley made about engaging. I'm happy to do just that
0:58:49 > 0:58:54along with officials to see if we can't move it perhaps in the
0:58:54 > 0:58:58direction of the member and note of understanding which was a point I
0:58:58 > 0:59:11think was validly made by my noble and learned friend. I would in the
0:59:11 > 0:59:14meantime asked noble lords if they would perhaps withdraw their
0:59:14 > 0:59:20amendments.I would like to join in the general complements to the noble
0:59:20 > 0:59:25lord Prime Minister and thank him very much for his courteous and
0:59:25 > 0:59:27detailed replies this evening and indeed for the Commandments to
0:59:27 > 0:59:32engage further with noble lords before report stage. We will no
0:59:32 > 0:59:36doubt return to many of these issues are clause 11 committee stage and no
0:59:36 > 0:59:41doubt return again to these issues during report but in the meantime I
0:59:41 > 0:59:49beg leave to withdraw my amendments. Amendment by leave with John.
0:59:49 > 0:59:59Commitment 102. -- with John. Perhaps I am in a position to move
0:59:59 > 1:00:06amendment 102. I'm going to a chart I should say. -- withdraw. First of
1:00:06 > 1:00:13all I must thank all noble lords who spoke in this rather... Particularly
1:00:13 > 1:00:18the noble lord, the Minister for his helpful way responding. I do
1:00:18 > 1:00:24apologise to Lord Wallace for my lapse of memory. He was absolutely
1:00:24 > 1:00:31right. I reject Lord Forsyth's criticism that I am being naive. He
1:00:31 > 1:00:35amendment which I was purposing I believe had cross party support in
1:00:35 > 1:00:43Edinburgh. It is all about the question of trust. If I picked up
1:00:43 > 1:00:46the noble lord, the Minister correctly. We're in the same
1:00:46 > 1:00:49position of clause seven as we were in the previous group because in
1:00:49 > 1:00:53effect, he's going to the cost seven problem will be exhausted and
1:00:53 > 1:00:57therefore there is nothing to be lost Ike going ahead and putting in
1:00:57 > 1:01:02the same thing he is prepared to put in about the Parliament. There is a
1:01:02 > 1:01:06serious issue about cause aids which I think would benefit from further
1:01:06 > 1:01:10discussion but that's perhaps for another day. Really on the basis
1:01:10 > 1:01:14that we can stop talk about it, I think the proper thing for me to do
1:01:14 > 1:01:20is to which all the amendment. -- with draw.Amendment by leave with
1:01:20 > 1:01:24John. The Bush with John.
1:01:33 > 1:01:39This about frontier controls. Between the UK and the EU after
1:01:39 > 1:01:46Brexit. India moment would require Ministers to report to Parliament
1:01:46 > 1:01:49how any new procedures can be fermented with ever-increasing
1:01:49 > 1:01:55delays and costs. It's a very serious issue. I do regret there is
1:01:55 > 1:02:00no separate bill so far on this as we have are ready been discussing
1:02:00 > 1:02:06the regulations bill. I think it would be a useful forum for doing
1:02:06 > 1:02:13it. Here we are tonight. Ministers have stated time and time again and
1:02:13 > 1:02:15there will be no border control between the Republic and Northern
1:02:15 > 1:02:20Ireland and I think they are rightly say it. Also told the commission
1:02:20 > 1:02:25that date don't want to remain in the single market and the commission
1:02:25 > 1:02:35has taken this into account and it's dropped withdrawal agreement. To a
1:02:35 > 1:02:41simple mind like me, since the Republic will stay and eat you and
1:02:41 > 1:02:43the UK does not and since the Government insists we cannot remain
1:02:43 > 1:02:47in the single market then there has to be some kind of a frontier
1:02:47 > 1:02:52between the Republic and the United Kingdom. Whether that's between the
1:02:52 > 1:02:57north and the South of Ireland or down the Irish Sea is debated many
1:02:57 > 1:03:04times but I can't see how a campy fudged or cherry picked. The volumes
1:03:04 > 1:03:16of traffic between the UK and the EU are absolutely huge. The unitized
1:03:16 > 1:03:21freight, import and export of 67 million tonnes in 2016 of which 14
1:03:21 > 1:03:27million are temperature controlled. A number of customs declarations in
1:03:27 > 1:03:342015 were 55 million UK ones and their due to multiply by five after
1:03:34 > 1:03:41Brexit. They all have to be checked and controlled somewhere and can I
1:03:41 > 1:03:47ask, can these be done electronically? The British ports
1:03:47 > 1:03:53Association has said one of the biggest challenges the ports phase
1:03:53 > 1:03:56is accommodating the new health standard inspections of the borders.
1:03:56 > 1:04:02Which obviously will cost more money and time if it goes wrong. There is
1:04:02 > 1:04:093000 trucks a day estimated to be carrying temperature control traffic
1:04:09 > 1:04:14which might be checking for the environmental health standards. I
1:04:14 > 1:04:19have a couple of interesting examples which have actually come
1:04:19 > 1:04:24from the Irish exporters association which seem to be more open with
1:04:24 > 1:04:29ideas than people on this side of the frontier. A lot of people have
1:04:29 > 1:04:37talked about the benefits of the EU, Canadian free-trade agreement. One
1:04:37 > 1:04:44of the issues they found their is that the need to track the
1:04:44 > 1:04:48compliance of pallets used to carry the product within the container
1:04:48 > 1:04:54with the standard... If the load is found to have one noncertified
1:04:54 > 1:05:01pallets or 19 certified valid, the whole lot is sent back to the
1:05:01 > 1:05:08sender. I think that will cause chaos. One has to question what
1:05:08 > 1:05:14proportion of trucks would need checking. The UK won't say. I have
1:05:14 > 1:05:18hardly any information from the Government. The Irish news says six
1:05:18 > 1:05:23to 8% will need paperwork checked and some visual inspections at the
1:05:23 > 1:05:28frontiers. Which roughly looks like 1000 trucks a day to me in addition
1:05:28 > 1:05:37to the temperature controlled. They government says... My lords, I think
1:05:37 > 1:05:45there is a real problem. If the UK is not in the single market and the
1:05:45 > 1:05:49Republic is, there has got to be some control somewhere. I think it's
1:05:49 > 1:05:55a great shame that we don't have representatives of Sinn Fein in the
1:05:55 > 1:05:58lordships House to give a wider view of other problems are in Northern
1:05:58 > 1:06:04Ireland. Rather like the noble baroness regretted the lack of SNP
1:06:04 > 1:06:11members here to have a good debate about it. My lords, what is the
1:06:11 > 1:06:15Government doing about this in terms of IT systems because the tax
1:06:15 > 1:06:23commentator Richard Murphy reported 85 IT systems at UK borders of which
1:06:23 > 1:06:2830 will need to be replaced or changed. I don't think I need to go
1:06:28 > 1:06:39into detail IT systems we have had. There is little evidence the Home
1:06:39 > 1:06:48Office or the customs will be able to have a system up and running. It
1:06:48 > 1:06:52may take many, many years.
1:06:52 > 1:06:58A word about railfreight and I declare an interest in the
1:06:58 > 1:07:01railfreight group, the problem is the same but there an easier
1:07:01 > 1:07:05solution which is to do the controls at the inland terminals that exist
1:07:05 > 1:07:10the security perspective. That would be fine and discussions are
1:07:10 > 1:07:14continuing but the authorities are trying to make it as difficult as
1:07:14 > 1:07:18possible, they will do security but nothing else, and I hope that the
1:07:18 > 1:07:22minister may be able to encourage this along because it is an obvious
1:07:22 > 1:07:25allusion to avoiding queues at the front for
1:07:25 > 1:07:30allusion to avoiding queues at the front for. There is a ray of light,
1:07:30 > 1:07:35the chartered Institute of Logistics and transport, and I'm the vice
1:07:35 > 1:07:38president, so I declare an interest in the Bay have been working hard
1:07:38 > 1:07:43with the industry and part of government to develop what is called
1:07:43 > 1:07:48an authorised operator status and this could work very well if only
1:07:48 > 1:07:52they could get some real bar in from the other departments that will be
1:07:52 > 1:07:58involved. Because it does mean that there may be a way of getting
1:07:58 > 1:08:04through frontiers without stopping for those cargoes that qualify. The
1:08:04 > 1:08:15other issue they raise is that of self certification because HMRC
1:08:15 > 1:08:24accept 's DAT self certification but not regarding duty payments, so
1:08:24 > 1:08:27maybe the minister could not get that because it is also important
1:08:27 > 1:08:28bash VAT.
1:08:31 > 1:08:35The other issue is to do with taxation, we have the taxation
1:08:35 > 1:08:38cross-border trade bill which has come to your lordship's house yet.
1:08:38 > 1:08:46-- hasn't. It is very long 156 pages, I think, and rather more in
1:08:46 > 1:08:51other documents, but there are a couple of issues which have been
1:08:51 > 1:08:56raised, the value of chargeable goods and the other is something
1:08:56 > 1:09:02called preferential origin, and I won't go into those tonight, my
1:09:02 > 1:09:07lords, you will be glad to hear, but I'm worried about the delay in this
1:09:07 > 1:09:12taxation Bill and therefore the consequent inability for the
1:09:12 > 1:09:21industry to plan these important tax issues which may come next year, if
1:09:21 > 1:09:28we have a longer period to do it, so much the better, but we have to be
1:09:28 > 1:09:34prepared. There are reasons for this amendment, but I do hope that the
1:09:34 > 1:09:40government can accept the need to produce a detailed and complex full
1:09:40 > 1:09:45report on how these frontier procedures can be implemented and
1:09:45 > 1:09:51keep to the costs and the programme. Because there is very little
1:09:51 > 1:09:55information at the moment. It is the government's problem and they have
1:09:55 > 1:10:00got to sort it out but I do hope that the government will integrate
1:10:00 > 1:10:05and work closely with the industry and maybe even arrange some more
1:10:05 > 1:10:08meetings before the report stage so this can be discussed further. I beg
1:10:08 > 1:10:20to move.A member proposed, the words are printed in the list. --
1:10:20 > 1:10:27amendment proposed the logistics industrydominates our retailing and
1:10:27 > 1:10:34most sophisticated industries like the motor industry, and to organise
1:10:34 > 1:10:40themselves on the multisite basis. When we buy something in most shops
1:10:40 > 1:10:43we start a process which means that our purchase will trigger the order
1:10:43 > 1:10:51for a replacement, stretching back to the manufacturer or supplier.
1:10:51 > 1:10:55This arrangement has become very much more sophisticated since we
1:10:55 > 1:11:04joined the EU 44 years ago. Supplies of parts flow through a network as
1:11:04 > 1:11:10complex as a spider's web, throughout the community and beyond,
1:11:10 > 1:11:17and that is what makes your orange appear at breakfast or your new car
1:11:17 > 1:11:23to come off the production line. We are told in short terms by the
1:11:23 > 1:11:28logistics industry and their customers that the survival of this
1:11:28 > 1:11:34system depends upon frictionless trade -- we are told in shrill
1:11:34 > 1:11:41terms. No stops at Borders and no tariffs, they are the words of the
1:11:41 > 1:11:47logistics industry, the Freight Transport Association, and the
1:11:47 > 1:11:51industry was tempted into a state of complacency by the assurance of
1:11:51 > 1:11:59ministers that this frictionless trade would continue after March
1:11:59 > 1:12:052019, less than a year away. But this complacency is swiftly turning
1:12:05 > 1:12:10to panic as it becomes evident that the assurances that are offered
1:12:10 > 1:12:17concerning frictionless trade are becoming less likely to be realised.
1:12:17 > 1:12:23Trade deals even if these could be negotiated seem very distant
1:12:23 > 1:12:31prospect. Your orange at breakfast has come from Spain, and the parts
1:12:31 > 1:12:36to make and deliver your mini need to arrive at Cowley every 20 minutes
1:12:36 > 1:12:41for the production line to continue otherwise it stops, and the prospect
1:12:41 > 1:12:48of empty shelves in shops as we witnessed only last week, the week
1:12:48 > 1:12:55before, with the bad weather, Wilbur, almost a certainty if there
1:12:55 > 1:13:05is any interruption at ports or similar points of entity -- entry
1:13:05 > 1:13:08for the eye may suggest that people's anger with those
1:13:08 > 1:13:19politicians who have sold them a false prospectus will be deep and
1:13:19 > 1:13:26severe, and if people can't obtain the groceries they have been
1:13:26 > 1:13:28accustomed or if workers in factories can't get a time critical
1:13:28 > 1:13:34supply of spare parts and they are laid off, there will be trouble. The
1:13:34 > 1:13:40chance of protest in the streets as these shortages become apparent
1:13:40 > 1:13:45should be taken far more seriously than the suggestion of unpopular
1:13:45 > 1:13:54uprising if the concept of Brexit is ultimately frustrated. The mantra
1:13:54 > 1:13:59Europe needs us more than we need them is perhaps best not put to the
1:13:59 > 1:14:06test as there will be those who now do business here, decided to seek
1:14:06 > 1:14:11certainty of closer union with the EU by moving their operations within
1:14:11 > 1:14:19the border. The future of the aircraft construction industry is a
1:14:19 > 1:14:24example of that. The logistics problem is very serious in respect
1:14:24 > 1:14:30of Ireland to which Lord Berkeley has referred, where a very large
1:14:30 > 1:14:36amount of perishable material has two transit via Great Britain on its
1:14:36 > 1:14:43way to Europe, and if there are any border checks necessary at Holyhead
1:14:43 > 1:14:51or Dover, probably both, as things stand, there will be very serious
1:14:51 > 1:14:56implications for trade and it will surely lead to the establishment of
1:14:56 > 1:15:03direct ferry links between the Republic and Europe to avoid using
1:15:03 > 1:15:09those in Dover and other crossing points. The government of the
1:15:09 > 1:15:13Republic of Ireland is at this moment giving serious consideration
1:15:13 > 1:15:20to this possibility. Maybe those in the logistics industry notably the
1:15:20 > 1:15:29ports industry and the freighter and the Association and the Road Haulage
1:15:29 > 1:15:32Association, have kept quiet until now because they have always trusted
1:15:32 > 1:15:40and supported the party opposite and have trusted the assurances of David
1:15:40 > 1:15:46Davis and Liam Fox. But this misplaced loyalty is about to be
1:15:46 > 1:15:51tested possibly to the point where these businesses will suffer
1:15:51 > 1:15:58permanent damage. The purpose of these amendments is to seek from the
1:15:58 > 1:16:02government at this late stage the humility to accept that the promises
1:16:02 > 1:16:09about frictionless trade cannot be delivered and bring back at report
1:16:09 > 1:16:17stage a plan to keep Britain working and supplied in the present
1:16:17 > 1:16:21just-in-time way or to face the possibility of defeat in this house.
1:16:21 > 1:16:32At report stage. As the Freight Transport Association has said, the
1:16:32 > 1:16:40trial of acquisitions Bill to which Lord Berkeley referred and which is
1:16:40 > 1:16:44coming back to the house committee stage next week, is not a viable
1:16:44 > 1:16:50solution. As the Prime Minister said last week we need certainty and I
1:16:50 > 1:17:00submit to your lordship's house, we are is far from that as ever. -- as.
1:17:00 > 1:17:06I would like to build on what has been said. 70% of the UK's food
1:17:06 > 1:17:13imports by value are from the EU and 60-65% of the UK's agricultural
1:17:13 > 1:17:17exports are to other member states, and any risk of delays would put a
1:17:17 > 1:17:24strain on our supply chain and raise food prices, most probably. The
1:17:24 > 1:17:30Channel Tunnel illustrates how important timing is, 1.4 million
1:17:30 > 1:17:38trucks and 2900 while freight trains went through in 2014, transporting
1:17:38 > 1:17:40approaching £100 billion worth of goods between the UK and the
1:17:40 > 1:17:45continent. Including almost £200 million of iron and steel and metal
1:17:45 > 1:17:50products for Yorkshire and the Humber. The time saved by using the
1:17:50 > 1:17:55Channel Tunnel was the equivalent of 120 days in 2014, saving a lot of
1:17:55 > 1:18:01money each crossing, so any delays, any more customs checks would end
1:18:01 > 1:18:06any financial projections and have the downstream consequences. One of
1:18:06 > 1:18:10the consequences of Brexit is the huge complexity that it has caused
1:18:10 > 1:18:14and these amendments are highlighting the impact that will
1:18:14 > 1:18:17have not just on the freight industry but on us as the public
1:18:17 > 1:18:22because the list of border operations, safety and security,
1:18:22 > 1:18:28environment and how, trade policy, modern custom systems have got to
1:18:28 > 1:18:31balance between providing the security but also facilitating the
1:18:31 > 1:18:37free flow of goods. 37 million tonnes of trade in year passing
1:18:37 > 1:18:40through Southampton alone including more than a million containers, how
1:18:40 > 1:18:45could you possibly inspect every container? It would create delays
1:18:45 > 1:18:49and blockages, and when you look at the freighter and that goes between
1:18:49 > 1:18:56in and out of the UK, 69% going to the EU is lorry traffic, but non-EU,
1:18:56 > 1:19:0399% is containers. If you look at where it comes into the country,
1:19:03 > 1:19:11huge proportions, 75-100% of annual lorry traffic, the EU share, is to
1:19:11 > 1:19:15Dover, the Channel Tunnel, Harwich and Holyhead, this is where most of
1:19:15 > 1:19:19it is going through and most of it is going through to the EU semi
1:19:19 > 1:19:23cannot possibly have any delays that will make life more difficult for
1:19:23 > 1:19:28our businesses -- so we cannot. The requirement for food products are
1:19:28 > 1:19:34just mentioned, then we will talk about Ireland which has been
1:19:34 > 1:19:38mentioned, and we will talk about edge on sport later and rail in more
1:19:38 > 1:19:46detail. -- air transport. The UK will not be deemed a third country
1:19:46 > 1:19:51until the end of any transition period, if that exists, and even if
1:19:51 > 1:19:54the UK were to remain in the customs union it would still be a third
1:19:54 > 1:19:58country and goods moving to and from would be subject to checks.
1:19:58 > 1:20:02Agriculture and police, freight using the UK language would be
1:20:02 > 1:20:11effectively it's the -- effectively subject to nontariff barriers, this
1:20:11 > 1:20:17is one disaster after another that Brexit is going to cause, 2% of
1:20:17 > 1:20:23cargo coming from third countries is subject to physical exam and 4-6% of
1:20:23 > 1:20:27such cargo is subject to documentary checks but the Department of
1:20:27 > 1:20:33agriculture is obliged to check up to 50% of products that contain
1:20:33 > 1:20:36fruit products within, and there is 100% check on animals including
1:20:36 > 1:20:44pets. This is how complex the whole area is. Revenue will prepare a list
1:20:44 > 1:20:48of approved customs for use by traders and traders will apply for
1:20:48 > 1:20:54registration numbers. My Lord's this would be absolutely disastrous and I
1:20:54 > 1:21:00don't think people have comprehended how difficult this is going to be.
1:21:00 > 1:21:07The FDA that has been mentioned by law Bradshaw, 50% of FDA members
1:21:07 > 1:21:11operate more than 200,000 lorries, half the UK fleet, they represent
1:21:11 > 1:21:2090% of freight moved by rail, FTA combined 70% of visible exports by
1:21:20 > 1:21:26sea and 79% by air, they speak for this industry. If we don't listen to
1:21:26 > 1:21:30them that we are not listening to the people who are doing this, my
1:21:30 > 1:21:38Lord's, and how UK companies get goods to the continent will be a
1:21:38 > 1:21:42matter for negotiations but the change to border controls and
1:21:42 > 1:21:46Customs will affect our transport efficiency, there is no denying
1:21:46 > 1:21:49that, because at the moment we have frictionless movement of goods to
1:21:49 > 1:21:54and from the UK and unless a solution can be agreed as a
1:21:54 > 1:21:57free-trade agreement with the UK moves outside the single market and
1:21:57 > 1:22:04the customs union, that will change.
1:22:04 > 1:22:07On top of the yet the immigration checks that are now possibly going
1:22:07 > 1:22:10to be there so you combined immigration checks with all these
1:22:10 > 1:22:15other checks, it's a disaster. Some members of the FDA say that they
1:22:15 > 1:22:19cross the border of four or five times a day. Of course, the Irish
1:22:19 > 1:22:26land bridge which I will come to. The whole red tape is likely to
1:22:26 > 1:22:30increase. Here we have brexiteer is talking about EU red tape. This will
1:22:30 > 1:22:35create red tape that you can dream up. My lords, British manufacturers
1:22:35 > 1:22:41from all over the country, to list geographical origin of each
1:22:41 > 1:22:46component or a gradient of finished products, to specify how many
1:22:46 > 1:22:49imported products were modified in the UK. Can we start to imagine all
1:22:49 > 1:22:57this? If we look at the FDA warning a 15 mile queues at the border if
1:22:57 > 1:23:00border checks are introduced after Brexit, this I think should be a
1:23:00 > 1:23:12wake-up call. Checks at Calle could result of traffic queues of more
1:23:12 > 1:23:19than 15 miles. The FDA is so concerned about it it is created its
1:23:19 > 1:23:25own ten point manifesto. The gridlock that could be created at
1:23:25 > 1:23:31Dover, the queues could be 30 miles going towards London. Two points 6
1:23:31 > 1:23:36million trucks cost to the ports every gear and as I said, 1.6
1:23:36 > 1:23:42million with the euro tunnel. On one side of the euro tunnel we have an
1:23:42 > 1:23:45area of outstanding beauty. How we create infrastructure to be able to
1:23:45 > 1:23:50do with all these properties? The problem for business is not just the
1:23:50 > 1:23:54prospect of terrorists as I say but the disruption of the free flow of
1:23:54 > 1:23:59goods. We only need to look back to 2015 when a French ferry worker
1:23:59 > 1:24:03strike led to more than 7000 trucks backed up the motorway as far as
1:24:03 > 1:24:09Maidstone. With as many as 16,000 trucks using Dover, a potential
1:24:09 > 1:24:14repeat of that would be absolutely alarming. You're looking at stopping
1:24:14 > 1:24:18the economy. Business lost £21 million of stock due to the traffic
1:24:18 > 1:24:23chaos in 2015. Live shellfish which was meant to go to Paris had to be
1:24:23 > 1:24:30dumped. This is the sort of problem we could be facing. Asked if you
1:24:30 > 1:24:34would be ready for an introduction of customs and two years, experts
1:24:34 > 1:24:39have said, you make me laugh. UNE at least doubled the number of customs
1:24:39 > 1:24:43officials but you have now. They will need to be recruited and
1:24:43 > 1:24:48trained and that takes time. If trucks coming from the age you are
1:24:48 > 1:24:53treated like none EU, the ports will be impermanent gridlock according to
1:24:53 > 1:24:57local customs expert. With Brexit this is the irony of it all, we are
1:24:57 > 1:25:01potentially coming full circle, returning to the pre-1993 system.
1:25:01 > 1:25:10That is just going backwards, not forwards. Agent, customs and freight
1:25:10 > 1:25:13agents. What about the stuff they will need to recruit? What about the
1:25:13 > 1:25:24documentation? My lords, this is absolutely awful. If big government
1:25:24 > 1:25:27are able to implement a viable system of checks, that would cost
1:25:27 > 1:25:36traders a another £45. Currently, none EU trucks take up to 20 minutes
1:25:36 > 1:25:40to go to Dover. If we start doing that for all our trucks, can you
1:25:40 > 1:25:45imagine the disruption that will cause. On top of this, Lori traffic
1:25:45 > 1:25:49in Dover is increased by a third in the past five years. If traffic is
1:25:49 > 1:25:55increased and it is projected to increase, how will be managed to do
1:25:55 > 1:25:59with all those increases? These amendments are really serious and
1:25:59 > 1:26:03should be a top priority for the Government. Two quick examples,
1:26:03 > 1:26:08Honda UK. It relies on 350 trucks a day of arriving from Europe to keep
1:26:08 > 1:26:12its wind and factory operating with just one hours worth of parts held
1:26:12 > 1:26:19in the production line. I conclude with the Islands British bridge to
1:26:19 > 1:26:24European markets. Many Irish farmers and fuel producers use Britain as a
1:26:24 > 1:26:27time-saving flyover to get to Europe. Dublin is seriously worried
1:26:27 > 1:26:34about this. If they have to go around, attorney from Dublin to the
1:26:34 > 1:26:38continent would take ten hours. If they have to go around without going
1:26:38 > 1:26:42through Britain it will take 40 hours. Ireland would just not be
1:26:42 > 1:26:46able to manage without. The Dublin Port would just not be able to cope
1:26:46 > 1:26:51with that. So my lords, the revenue chairman in Ireland told the
1:26:51 > 1:26:56committee in Ireland's Parliament that customs and truck freight with
1:26:56 > 1:27:01the one of the biggest challenges post Brexit. I conclude with another
1:27:01 > 1:27:05Irish quote. If you don't like facing reality, this is the reality
1:27:05 > 1:27:10I am talking about as a businessman who imports and exports to Europe. I
1:27:10 > 1:27:14will be affected, the consumers will be affected so laugh as much as he
1:27:14 > 1:27:19wants but this is the reality. Flynn wanted the prospects of a deal. This
1:27:19 > 1:27:22is the quote, we are all looking for transition in terms of whatever
1:27:22 > 1:27:27changes are required but effectively omit if there's no likelihood of a
1:27:27 > 1:27:32plan by October 2018 in terms of UK, EU negotiations you will be without
1:27:32 > 1:27:39a doubt going into a cliff edge situation.The noble lord Berkeley
1:27:39 > 1:27:45has raised a very good point about freight transport crossing the
1:27:45 > 1:27:48border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I
1:27:48 > 1:27:51think it's a very legitimate issue to raise and I hope the Government
1:27:51 > 1:27:58listens. He is also identified that this can be solved with modern IT.
1:27:58 > 1:28:00But, what I would like to particularly bring the House's
1:28:00 > 1:28:05attention to is the reality of the border in Northern Ireland. I was
1:28:05 > 1:28:08working in the Northern Ireland Office dust over three years ago and
1:28:08 > 1:28:18I said to my office... They said, Mr that's a bad thing. But I went. That
1:28:18 > 1:28:24used to be referred to as bandit country. Three and a half years ago
1:28:24 > 1:28:28it certainly was still bandit country. I was with a lot of police
1:28:28 > 1:28:33and a helicopter overhead and the police are still in fear of their
1:28:33 > 1:28:36lives there because there are booby traps and things laid for them. The
1:28:36 > 1:28:40particular point I want to focus on is the smuggling. We followed a
1:28:40 > 1:28:47truck around one of the little lanes from the Republic into the North.
1:28:47 > 1:28:53Please said, I will be smuggling. We saw the impact of smuggling diesel
1:28:53 > 1:28:57because there are different duties. Huge amounts of diesel imported from
1:28:57 > 1:29:03the South to North. A lot of red diesel which is then has the red
1:29:03 > 1:29:07taken out of it which has a huge environmental impact. There are
1:29:07 > 1:29:12still different subsidies. Cattle get smuggled back and forth across
1:29:12 > 1:29:15the border because you can make a lot of money if you smuggle stuff
1:29:15 > 1:29:24across the border. There are customs on the border. Not sitting and post
1:29:24 > 1:29:28like they used to be. Not doing very much it has to be said because there
1:29:28 > 1:29:37is less to do since we were... I would sate their art, I believe, 275
1:29:37 > 1:29:41different crossing points between the South and the North of Ireland.
1:29:41 > 1:29:49On a border of some 305 miles. It has never been possible between 1922
1:29:49 > 1:29:53and 1972 to please everyone. During the troubles and I was serving at
1:29:53 > 1:29:57there for a bit, it was impossible to stop the terrorists crossing the
1:29:57 > 1:30:02border. We step out concrete blocks across the border and it did not
1:30:02 > 1:30:07work because people came across the border. I would also remind noble
1:30:07 > 1:30:13Lords that this is a different currency unit. Ireland uses the euro
1:30:13 > 1:30:17and we use the pound and people manage quite easily to get past this
1:30:17 > 1:30:22and they will manage in future as well. When people say, the border in
1:30:22 > 1:30:26Ireland is a huge problem. The border in Ireland is only going to
1:30:26 > 1:30:29be a problem woman leave the European Union if people wish it to
1:30:29 > 1:30:33be. It does not have to be in goodwill on both sides and common
1:30:33 > 1:30:42sense will show... For Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
1:30:42 > 1:30:45to coexist quite happily and trade between each other as they have been
1:30:45 > 1:30:59doing before 1922 and since.I haven't spoken on this bill at all
1:30:59 > 1:31:04yet.I would like to intervene on this issue. I've made a point of not
1:31:04 > 1:31:10speaking. I want to raise one issue. That's the issue of trusted trader
1:31:10 > 1:31:18status. The Government have told us that they intend to establish a
1:31:18 > 1:31:26system on the Northern Ireland and southern border of trusted status.
1:31:26 > 1:31:32And there will be an exemption. And exemption we are told what apply to
1:31:32 > 1:31:37small and medium-size enterprises involved in cross-border trade. In
1:31:37 > 1:31:44the Government say it is possible to manage the allegation that there
1:31:44 > 1:31:51will be substantial fraud under such a system. Where can we find a
1:31:51 > 1:31:57definition of what constitutes a small or medium-sized enterprise?
1:31:57 > 1:32:01That's very important we know that in advance. Secondly, do we know the
1:32:01 > 1:32:09percentage of trade will fall under that particular description?
1:32:09 > 1:32:14Thirdly, when they talk about managing fraud and managing a system
1:32:14 > 1:32:19whereby there is an fraud, what kind of management arrangements to they
1:32:19 > 1:32:23intend to set in place to ensure that fraud does not take place?
1:32:23 > 1:32:28Finally, what will happen when it actually comes to customs entries
1:32:28 > 1:32:37for those firms that are not covered I trusted trader status. Will do
1:32:37 > 1:32:41clearance and entry arrangements for those goods coming in over the
1:32:41 > 1:32:47border actually be on the border post? I presume if some businesses
1:32:47 > 1:32:51of which are exempt then there must be some actual control on the border
1:32:51 > 1:32:55itself. I think these issues need to be answered at a very early stage in
1:32:55 > 1:33:02the procedure. I have truncated much of what I wanted to say I wanted to
1:33:02 > 1:33:10get that on the record.My intervention at this stage will be
1:33:10 > 1:33:16extraordinarily brave. What I say about amendment 104 which art and
1:33:16 > 1:33:22the two consecutive groups. There is a great deal of merit and requiring
1:33:22 > 1:33:29these reports but, there is no reason at all why they should be
1:33:29 > 1:33:34linked to the initiation of the regulations. That is slightly
1:33:34 > 1:33:37misconceived. But I actually think and if I may say to the noble lord
1:33:37 > 1:33:41to put their names and indeed my noble friend to par her name to the
1:33:41 > 1:33:44amendment, they are lacking ambition. What they should do is to
1:33:44 > 1:33:48require these reports to be published in any event before Brexit
1:33:48 > 1:33:54date. Because this committee will know later on in this debate we are
1:33:54 > 1:33:58going to come to the point of Parliamentary control and Parliament
1:33:58 > 1:34:06can only exercise full control if it is in possession of Fox and the fax
1:34:06 > 1:34:09will be furnished by these reports. So if I may say this to the noble
1:34:09 > 1:34:13lord to put their names to this amendment and to my noble friend,
1:34:13 > 1:34:18yes of course you are right so far as you have done it thus far,
1:34:18 > 1:34:26linking it to the institutional regulations. Come the report stage,
1:34:26 > 1:34:40require these reports before Brexit day. And my noble friend will...My
1:34:40 > 1:34:44lords, given transport's essential role in supporting the UK economy,
1:34:44 > 1:34:49transport issues should be giving high priority by the Government in
1:34:49 > 1:34:53this bill and other legislation relating to Brexit. It does not seem
1:34:53 > 1:35:01to have had that level of importance attached to it. Amendment 104
1:35:01 > 1:35:06requires that no regulations should be laid that would amend UK, EU
1:35:06 > 1:35:11border transport procedures unless Ministers can demonstrate the new
1:35:11 > 1:35:17procedures will not increase delays to freight transport. I appreciate
1:35:17 > 1:35:27the sentiments of my noble friend and I do think that I will take his
1:35:27 > 1:35:30comments under advisement for report stage because as he says, this is
1:35:30 > 1:35:36such an important issue. The time sensitivity and mother and logistics
1:35:36 > 1:35:41and UK supply chains means that retaining a seamless supply chain
1:35:41 > 1:35:47process is a significant economic importance. Customs clearance as
1:35:47 > 1:35:51well as passenger entry mechanisms to the UK from the you including on
1:35:51 > 1:35:59the Ireland of Ireland should be as seamless as possible. If the UK
1:35:59 > 1:36:02leaves the you, the current system whereby all trucks can operate
1:36:02 > 1:36:07through the EU on the basis of a 1-page document and without
1:36:07 > 1:36:16requiring specific permits may well not continue. UK based Rode haulage
1:36:16 > 1:36:18businesses have benefited considerably from the EU principles
1:36:18 > 1:36:22of free movement which is meant that UK lorries and their drivers can
1:36:22 > 1:36:29cross borders and operate within other parts of the EU. Governments
1:36:29 > 1:36:33and statistics suggest that 85% of the lorries operating between
1:36:33 > 1:36:43Britain and the other 27 EU countries are owned by businesses
1:36:43 > 1:36:47and the other EU 27 countries rather than the UK. In order for these
1:36:47 > 1:36:51international commercial arrangements to continue, if we
1:36:51 > 1:36:58leave the EU, specific arrangements are going to be required but have
1:36:58 > 1:37:03not yet been negotiated. As far as I am aware, this cannot be achieved
1:37:03 > 1:37:06through our domestic legal system. It is a separate issue to the
1:37:06 > 1:37:28customs union and depends on access in some form to the single market.