:00:08. > :00:11.Hi. Tonight I'm in St Neots with more stories from where you live.
:00:11. > :00:19.Jenny lost her business, because the Post Office say �9000 went
:00:19. > :00:23.missing. She says the fault is in the Post Office computer. We are
:00:23. > :00:30.going to see this through we are going to beat them we are going to
:00:30. > :00:33.be vindicated. Living with Alzheimer's. Bob used to build
:00:33. > :00:39.luxury cars. Now he struggles with simple tasks. And the theatre
:00:39. > :00:49.project that's helping people with dementia. That's tonight's Inside
:00:49. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:05.Hello. And welcome to St Neots. A community relies on its Post Office
:01:05. > :01:09.but some have closed because the people who run them have been
:01:09. > :01:12.accused of fiddling the books. They say they've done nothing wrong,
:01:12. > :01:18.that there must be a computer problem, but so far no-one has been
:01:18. > :01:21.able to find anything wrong. I've been investigating. Jenny O'Dell
:01:21. > :01:25.ran a Post Office at Great Staughton in Cambridgeshire for
:01:25. > :01:32.nine years. She planned to run it until she retired then Post Office
:01:32. > :01:42.Ltd closed her down. We thought we were all set for the next 20 odd
:01:42. > :01:46.years. It would enable my son to have his music career. My husband,
:01:46. > :01:56.he needs a new hip but it is not bad enough, we thought it could be
:01:56. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:02.done privately. We can't now. You have no idea but we are strong. We
:02:02. > :02:09.are going to see this through. We are going to beat them we are going
:02:09. > :02:15.to be vindicated. She feels so strongly because she believes she
:02:15. > :02:18.has done nothing wrong and has not been convicted of any offence.
:02:18. > :02:23.Millions of transactions are dealt with every week by the Post Office
:02:23. > :02:27.and most of them now have nothing to do with the post. Your modern
:02:27. > :02:31.post office carries our all sorts of services. Tax discs, banking,
:02:31. > :02:37.even lottery tickets. And all these transactions are recorded on a
:02:37. > :02:40.centralised computer system called Horizon. But some Post Office staff
:02:40. > :02:45.have been convicted of theft or false accounting, even though they
:02:45. > :02:52.say they have taken nothing. They insist it is a fault with the
:02:52. > :02:54.computer system. Under their contracts, sub-postmasters are
:02:54. > :02:57.personally liable for any shortfalls in their business. Last
:02:57. > :03:05.year, the Horizon system appeared to show Jenny owed the Post Office
:03:05. > :03:09.thousands of pounds. I did my balancing each month. You always
:03:09. > :03:13.imagine it to be a little under or over but the first time it was over
:03:13. > :03:17.�1000 wrong and I thought it was human error. But the following
:03:17. > :03:20.month when it was another �1000 I realised it wasn't and it was the
:03:20. > :03:26.system and then month after month when it was a �1000 and another
:03:26. > :03:31.�1000. They sent in the auditors in the January and I thought, oh well,
:03:31. > :03:35.this is the answer to my prayers. They are going to find it, they are
:03:35. > :03:40.going to find out what the problems are. And unfortunately they didn't
:03:40. > :03:47.and they found it was �9,000 at a loss. And I kept saying to them,
:03:47. > :03:50."It's the system". And all they kept saying is, "No, it can't be".
:03:50. > :03:54.At the time, Jenny thought she was the only one who had had problems
:03:54. > :03:58.but she was not alone. The Post Office here in Castle Hedingham
:03:58. > :04:04.used to be in the local shop just over the road, until the owner, Ian
:04:04. > :04:12.Warren, was convicted of theft. Ian had been its postmaster for three
:04:12. > :04:16.and a half years until he was suspended in 2008. I had a mystery
:04:16. > :04:26.message pop up on the screen, "You have an error of �17,000 do you
:04:26. > :04:27.
:04:27. > :04:31.want to transfer this to suspense?" I did a double take. �17,000 is a
:04:31. > :04:41.huge amount of money for a Post Office of this size and I had no
:04:41. > :04:54.
:04:54. > :04:57.inkling. I knew I had to deal with it the following morning. Ian did
:04:57. > :05:00.not see the error message again so assumed it had just gone away. His
:05:00. > :05:03.mistake was not to challenge the computer's figures, but to sign
:05:03. > :05:06.them off knowing they were wrong. By doing that he was telling the
:05:06. > :05:11.Post Office everything was fine when it wasn't, which amounts to
:05:11. > :05:15.false accounting - a criminal offence. It's not false accounting
:05:15. > :05:18.in the normal sense because we don't do any accounting. It is
:05:18. > :05:22.absolutely impossible for me to fraudulently make an entry on the
:05:22. > :05:31.Horizon system. It is always backed up by something and totally visible
:05:31. > :05:36.to them. Ian pleaded guilty and got a suspended sentence. Since filming
:05:36. > :05:40.he has sold up and moved away from Essex. Graham Ward ran the Post
:05:40. > :05:44.Office at Rivenhall, also in Essex. He was suspended after a �10,000
:05:44. > :05:51.loss was built up over a period of time and he is also packing up his
:05:51. > :05:55.shop for good. He thinks he has worked out what went wrong.
:05:55. > :06:03.accounting errors that happened to me are all due to how the Post
:06:03. > :06:06.Office processes its cheques. You do a transaction on the computer
:06:06. > :06:11.which is transmitted to their computer and then it is also
:06:11. > :06:18.transmitted on to the processing people. Somewhere within that that
:06:18. > :06:22.line something got lost. It only happens intermittently. It has
:06:22. > :06:25.happened four or five times. Once that occurs, a figure appears in
:06:25. > :06:35.one side of the accounting system in your particular branch, and you
:06:35. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:47.have a choice. You either pay up and pay the money or leave it there.
:06:47. > :06:57.But you end up building up month on month a very large discrepancy,
:06:57. > :06:58.
:06:58. > :07:02.that is what happened to me. these accounting problems vary and
:07:02. > :07:08.some sub-postmasters have never encountered any faults. Antony
:07:08. > :07:13.Blackman runs the Post Office in Mattishall, in Norfolk. Have you
:07:13. > :07:16.ever had any problems with the Horizon computer system? Not in my
:07:16. > :07:18.experience, no, none whatsoever, no problems at all really. You get
:07:18. > :07:24.glitches, glitches with computers, normal things, but they sort
:07:24. > :07:28.themselves out. So you have never encountered any accounting errors
:07:28. > :07:31.when you have come to the end of your business day? And then
:07:31. > :07:35.something has been thrown up and you can't work through and where it
:07:35. > :07:39.has come from? No, nothing of the sort, no. Like Antony, most sub-
:07:39. > :07:41.postmasters use Horizon every day with no serious issues. But there
:07:41. > :07:46.are now hundreds who say they have had accounting problems where
:07:46. > :07:49.transactions have gone wrong. So could there be some underlying
:07:49. > :07:55.problem, possibly an intermittent one, not picked up by the Post
:07:55. > :07:59.Office? When someone is relying on the evidence of one computer system
:07:59. > :08:02.there are many possibilities on what might have gone wrong. Some of
:08:02. > :08:12.the cases might be explained by fraud, whether that is at the
:08:12. > :08:16.postmasters side or at the Post Some of it could be human error
:08:16. > :08:20.when it was successful. But we can't rule out the possibility it
:08:20. > :08:23.could be a flaw in the computer system. The computer could be
:08:23. > :08:26.producing the wrong results even though it has been given the
:08:26. > :08:32.correct input because at some point, maybe years ago, some programmer
:08:32. > :08:35.has misunderstood something has made a mistake. And therefore the
:08:35. > :08:40.computer in some cases isn't functioning in the way you would
:08:40. > :08:44.expect. The more challenging types of bugs are ones that happen at
:08:44. > :08:47.unpredictable times and have unpredictable results. So while it
:08:47. > :08:51.might look from the outside that these are all different cases, it
:08:51. > :08:59.could be that it is down to one particular flaw or one of several
:08:59. > :09:04.different flaws. We asked the Post Office if there is anything wrong
:09:04. > :09:06.with Horizon? They gave us this statement: The Post Office is fully
:09:06. > :09:08.confident that the Horizon computer system in all its branches enable
:09:08. > :09:14.sub postmasters to account accurately for the transactions
:09:14. > :09:18.they record. It said the system has operated for over ten years. In
:09:18. > :09:20.that time thousands of sub- postmasters have used it. It has
:09:20. > :09:23.been rigorously tested and the National Federation of Sub
:09:23. > :09:28.Postmasters has expressed its full confidence in the accuracy and
:09:28. > :09:31.robustness of the system. The Post Office is one of the few bodies in
:09:31. > :09:35.the country that still has the power to carry out its own
:09:35. > :09:45.investigations. Dozens of sub- postmasters have now lost their
:09:45. > :09:48.Post Offices as a result these investigations. They closed me down
:09:48. > :09:51.after an audit in September 2008, and that's really been it. The
:09:51. > :09:59.final thing on the appeal hearing was they said I was not competent
:09:59. > :10:08.to run a Post Office. How does that sit with you? How has it affected
:10:08. > :10:14.your life? I am currently in the process of selling the shop. I have
:10:15. > :10:22.about a month left here which means I will loose my income and my home.
:10:22. > :10:28.My wife has left me. I only see my kids every other weekend. So it has
:10:28. > :10:31.affected me. Graham Ward has lost his Post Office but he has not been
:10:31. > :10:36.prosecuted for theft or false accounting, and he says there is no
:10:36. > :10:40.evidence to show where the money has gone. He is one of a group now
:10:40. > :10:44.pursuing legal action to try and clear his name. And Jenny is
:10:44. > :10:50.handing her case to the same solicitors. There are now 89 sub-
:10:50. > :10:53.postmasters who have contacted the firm over problems with Horizon.
:10:53. > :10:56.There are a number of factors but it all seems to come down
:10:56. > :11:01.ultimately to what is stored in the computer system. Once you have met
:11:01. > :11:04.these individuals, what you do find is, they are very good citizens.
:11:04. > :11:07.They all come with the same story. They wanted to be part of the
:11:07. > :11:10.community they are very believable and when you have such numbers. It
:11:10. > :11:15.has to be more than coincidence that this is happening to such a
:11:15. > :11:18.large number right across the county. There are bound to be
:11:18. > :11:21.dishonest sub-postmasters, just as there are dishonest people in all
:11:22. > :11:25.walks of life. And the Post Office has every right to pursue law-
:11:25. > :11:28.breakers. But some of those accused of false accounting insist they
:11:28. > :11:34.were not dishonest, but were let down by the system and didn't get
:11:34. > :11:44.the support they needed. computer is infallible the sooner
:11:44. > :11:54.
:11:54. > :12:02.the Post Office accepts this, the better. They won't let anyone
:12:02. > :12:12.outside their people look at their system. Even the banks can't do
:12:12. > :12:15.
:12:15. > :12:18.that. Any significant computer system will have far more possible
:12:18. > :12:21.input scenarios than can be tested, so any of those can trigger
:12:21. > :12:24.incorrect operations. In the latest development, the Post Office has
:12:24. > :12:27.been asked by an MP if any operational faults had been
:12:27. > :12:29.identified, and how many complaints it has received from sub
:12:29. > :12:32.postmasters concerning difficulties with the system. To date this
:12:32. > :12:35.information has not yet been received. But the Post Office told
:12:35. > :12:38.Inside Out that the Horizon system has always been subject to external
:12:38. > :12:40.scrutiny. It also told us that in all three cases there was
:12:40. > :12:43.absolutely no evidence to suggest the losses were down to computer
:12:43. > :12:53.error. If there's something you think we should investigate, email
:12:53. > :12:57.
:12:58. > :13:01.me. David.whiteley@bbc.co.uk. There are 750,000 people with dementia in
:13:01. > :13:04.the UK and that number is predicted to rise to more than a million in
:13:04. > :13:11.10 years time. Alzheimers disease is the most common form of the
:13:11. > :13:13.disorder. There is no cure but it is possible to make life better for
:13:13. > :13:16.people with the disease. Helen McDermott has been to meet some
:13:16. > :13:20.people with Alzheimers, to learn more about their lives and to show
:13:20. > :13:30.how a bit of theatre can bring back memories. It is nearly three years
:13:30. > :13:31.
:13:31. > :13:36.since Bob Tonks was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. You've got to just
:13:36. > :13:41.take these again over the air and then you will come back. Come
:13:41. > :13:46.across here and Helen can talk to both of us then. Is that all right?
:13:47. > :13:52.I am going overnight to the table and setting the table. Once you
:13:52. > :13:57.have done that come back. Then come back and I will give you these. Is
:13:57. > :14:00.that all right? Bob and his wife, Jill, recently moved from their
:14:00. > :14:10.home in Essex to this sheltered housing complex in Kessingland in
:14:10. > :14:12.
:14:12. > :14:17.Suffolk. How did you notice that things were wrong with Bob? He had
:14:17. > :14:23.been forgetting things for quite a long time. He used to be able to do
:14:23. > :14:28.electrical jobs and DIY jobs, it he was no longer able to do it. He was
:14:28. > :14:34.in the shower one day and he called me and said, what do I do next? I
:14:34. > :14:41.do not know how to turn the shower taps on. I think I need to see a
:14:41. > :14:46.doctor. Were you aware of what was going on at the time? Yes. And how
:14:46. > :14:50.was it for you when you find out that he had this condition?
:14:50. > :14:56.thought all along that he had this problem but when the consultant
:14:56. > :15:01.actually said he had got Alzheimer's it was devastating. I
:15:01. > :15:06.looked at him. I did not know how he would take it. That was what
:15:06. > :15:13.worried me more than anything. you able to take it in, what he
:15:13. > :15:17.said? Not really. I do not think he has ever, he knows he has got
:15:17. > :15:25.Alzheimer's and he talks about it to other people. He admits there is
:15:25. > :15:31.nothing wrong in that. But I know a lot of people will not admit to it.
:15:31. > :15:37.Bob, do you get upset at all? The you sometimes sort of share
:15:37. > :15:47.this together? Your whole life is changing, isn't it? Definitely. We
:15:47. > :16:03.
:16:03. > :16:09.do, we should things together. It took 18 months to diagnose Bob's
:16:09. > :16:13.Alzheimers. The disease is the most common cause of dementia, affecting
:16:14. > :16:16.nearly half a million people in the country. One in three of us will
:16:16. > :16:26.die with dementia. Drugs are available but they can only slow
:16:26. > :16:30.down the speed of the disease, not stop it altogether. Next week we
:16:30. > :16:40.need to go into Town and sort things out for our holiday. You
:16:40. > :16:41.
:16:41. > :16:44.need to get some new trousers, OK? Alzheimer's affects the way the
:16:44. > :16:46.brain transmits messages and also causes brain cells to die. Symptoms
:16:46. > :16:49.include becoming confused and forgetful. It's a progressive
:16:49. > :16:56.disease and over time symptoms become more severe. Despite
:16:56. > :17:01.advances in medication, there's currently no cure. A lot of people
:17:01. > :17:06.leave it and think it is just our age and losing our memory which
:17:06. > :17:12.lots of people do but it is not always that. Often it can be
:17:12. > :17:16.Alzheimer's or some form of dementia. I going early enough they
:17:16. > :17:22.can help. Despite Bob's condition, the couple are trying to lead a
:17:22. > :17:27.normal life as possible. They're shortly off to Italy on holiday.
:17:27. > :17:32.am really looking forward to going to Lake Garda and going on the
:17:32. > :17:36.ferry. It seems like ages since he went on the ferry. We will have a
:17:36. > :17:42.nice meal and go up on deck, hopefully the sun will be shining
:17:42. > :17:45.and it will be like old times. While looking forward to their
:17:45. > :17:55.holiday in Italy, Jill admits it could be quite stressful. And fears
:17:55. > :17:57.
:17:57. > :18:01.it could be her and Bob's last ever foreign trip. Right, Bob, it just
:18:02. > :18:11.take your time and let the sort do the work. Keep your fingers away
:18:12. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:21.from that. -- the saw. Bob's always been a practical person. He used to
:18:21. > :18:24.work on the production line making Jaguar cars and also ran his own
:18:24. > :18:32.transport company. But now he finds it increasingly difficult to do
:18:32. > :18:42.even simple tasks. Do you find it frustrating not being able to do
:18:42. > :18:43.
:18:43. > :18:48.little tasks? What, by example? cannot think. There are just little
:18:48. > :18:55.things. I used to be able to go and do it straight away but now I just
:18:56. > :19:05.can't do that. What is it like for your lung lady who has to look
:19:06. > :19:13.
:19:13. > :19:19.after you? -- young lady. My wife? It must be hard for you. In many
:19:19. > :19:26.ways you seem perfectly OK. I know. A lot of people would think there
:19:26. > :19:33.is nothing wrong at all. I mean, you wouldn't believe it, but I am
:19:33. > :19:40.having a conversation with you and all of a sudden I don't know what
:19:40. > :19:45.I've been talking about. I don't know what I am doing. Yeah? So
:19:45. > :19:52.could that happen now while you're making something? I could. But I
:19:52. > :19:59.don't make it do that to show you or anything. It will just go, you
:19:59. > :20:09.know, gone. Bob is given a day when he goes with the maintenance man
:20:09. > :20:10.
:20:10. > :20:15.here. They have knitted together so well. He takes them for four hours
:20:15. > :20:21.and he helps do all the odd jobs around here. How does that help
:20:21. > :20:27.him? It gives him new things to think about. Instead of here --
:20:27. > :20:30.being here watching television all be it has given him something to do.
:20:30. > :20:33.Doctors say that mental stimulation of the kind Bob's getting is really
:20:33. > :20:35.beneficial for people with Alzheimer's. It can slow down the
:20:35. > :20:44.effects of the disease, although it can never stop it, as Alzheimer's
:20:44. > :20:52.is incurable. Where are you going for your holiday? You are going
:20:52. > :21:02.away abroad? Yeah. Can you remember where you are going on holiday?
:21:02. > :21:02.
:21:02. > :21:12.Somewhere like Spain? No. Where does the Cup come from? What Cup,
:21:12. > :21:19.the World Cup? Don't think like that or you will never get it. In
:21:19. > :21:29.her... What Cup are we talking about? It is nothing to do with a
:21:29. > :21:30.
:21:30. > :21:40.cup. Just leave me and I might remember. Where does the cook here
:21:40. > :21:42.
:21:42. > :21:52.come from? The cook? Roberto? Italy! I am going to Italy for my
:21:52. > :21:57.
:21:57. > :21:59.holiday. Can you bring me aqua Natal back? -- a Cornetto. It's not
:21:59. > :22:09.just practical work that can help those with Alzheimer's. There are
:22:09. > :22:10.
:22:10. > :22:15.other kinds of mental stimulation, other ways to prompt memories.
:22:15. > :22:20.may wonder why am I am being made up. I came up with an idea to put
:22:20. > :22:25.on a special play. The play is specially aimed at people with
:22:25. > :22:31.Alzheimer's. It is about the Coronation of 1953, Queen Elizabeth.
:22:31. > :22:34.It is about a family getting ready for a street party and a husband
:22:34. > :22:40.decides as a surprise for his wife to bring a television into the home.
:22:40. > :22:45.In those days very few people had televisions. The idea was for them
:22:45. > :22:49.to watch the Coronation on the television. Because it is for
:22:49. > :22:54.people with dementia and Alzheimer's it is important it
:22:54. > :22:58.feels right. Things like costume are very important. We are
:22:58. > :23:05.interacting with them as well and it helps to unlock those memories
:23:05. > :23:11.of before. I remember a time when we did a show in a home and this
:23:11. > :23:16.lady was completely non responsive. Her Alzheimer's was quite advanced.
:23:16. > :23:21.She had her head down during the entire play until we started doing
:23:21. > :23:31.the sing-song. Then she just knew the words straight away. She was
:23:31. > :23:39.
:23:39. > :23:41.singing along and responding. Hallow, Dorothy, sorry, love.
:23:41. > :23:44.People with Alzheimer's frequently have very poor short term memories.
:23:45. > :23:54.But their long term memories are often much better and that is what
:23:55. > :23:55.
:23:55. > :24:03.the play is hoping to stimulate. wanted to write a play that would
:24:03. > :24:08.invoke memories to bring up and experience that they would enjoy a
:24:08. > :24:13.whiff artifacts from a time long ago all but probably quite fresh in
:24:13. > :24:18.their memories. I did not know anything about dementia when I
:24:18. > :24:22.started. Finding out about it has been fascinating. It is rewarding
:24:22. > :24:31.knowing that we are giving them something which they probably do
:24:31. > :24:37.not often expedience. We will switch the music on. Cheer us all
:24:37. > :24:40.up. We will waive these later, who would like a flag? Watching the
:24:40. > :24:43.play with interest is Phil Wells from Age UK. He believes the show
:24:43. > :24:52.has real benefit in improving the quality of life for people with
:24:52. > :24:58.Alzheimer's. Mental stimulation is really important for people with
:24:58. > :25:03.Alzheimer's. We know that the more active the brain is the easier it
:25:03. > :25:09.is to maintain capacity. It is also important because it makes life
:25:09. > :25:16.enjoyable. We forget at being alive should be a fun thing, even if you
:25:16. > :25:23.have Alzheimer's. You would go to a stupid old street party for me?
:25:23. > :25:28.happen to like street parties, I cannot think of anything better.
:25:28. > :25:33.You can see from the response of the audience how important these
:25:33. > :25:42.things can be. What has happened in the past can be much more pressing
:25:42. > :25:49.to them than today. It is tremendously comforting for people.
:25:49. > :25:59.It is dancing time, whether you like it or not! Do not read on
:25:59. > :26:00.
:26:00. > :26:05.cornets tales. It has definitely achieved what I set out to do. It
:26:05. > :26:10.has been wonderful hearing the response from the audience, the
:26:10. > :26:14.murmurs of recognition. They are laughing and really joining in.
:26:14. > :26:19.Sometimes they call out to the actors and really interact with
:26:19. > :26:23.them. The show itself is only part of the event, there's a twist at
:26:23. > :26:27.the end the audience are invited to a street party. Actors and audience
:26:27. > :26:37.can mingle and hopefully reminisce. It's a chance to find out if the
:26:37. > :26:40.
:26:40. > :26:47.theatre therapy has worked. Did you enjoy the show? I did. What did you
:26:47. > :26:54.like best about it? Most of it I was part of it. Really? You
:26:54. > :26:59.remember the time, do you? Do you recall some of the things on the
:26:59. > :27:07.table and the songs? I do not know. Do You Remember the coronation at
:27:07. > :27:13.all? At I do remember. Do you remember that sort of television?
:27:13. > :27:19.Yes, we had one. We had it for years. That thing with the brands
:27:19. > :27:29.like that. Amazing, of course. It was black-and-white then, wasn't
:27:29. > :27:30.
:27:30. > :27:40.it? The air. -- yeah. The event seems to have done its job and has
:27:40. > :27:40.
:27:40. > :27:50.certainly impressed our expert. is really important to be able to
:27:50. > :27:51.
:27:51. > :27:55.use something like this where you know that people are being engaged.
:27:55. > :27:59.A Of course there's a cost to putting on these events. It's not
:27:59. > :28:02.something that can be done every day. But until there is a cure for
:28:02. > :28:12.Alzheimer's, activities like this can play a real part in improving
:28:12. > :28:19.
:28:19. > :28:23.And if are concerned about Alzheimer's, you can contact the
:28:23. > :28:26.Alzheimer's Society. That's it from St Neots. Anything you want to get
:28:26. > :28:36.in touch with me at all, david.whiteley@bbc.co.uk.
:28:36. > :28:38.
:28:38. > :28:40.Twitter@davidinsideout. See you next week. Next week: After the
:28:40. > :28:45.tragic events in Northampton last month, we investigate nightclub