0:00:03 > 0:00:04Desperate to buy a home,
0:00:04 > 0:00:09but what effect is the Help to Buy scheme having in Medway Towns?
0:00:09 > 0:00:11Help to Buy, I think, is dangerous
0:00:11 > 0:00:16because it fuels an expectation that prices are going to keep rising.
0:00:16 > 0:00:21Is the historic Bluebell Railway in Sussex finally going places?
0:00:21 > 0:00:25This is not just about amateurs playing trains.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28We like to think of ourselves as professionals.
0:00:28 > 0:00:33And the way that criminals are stealing your PIN number.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, actually, about your
0:00:36 > 0:00:37involvement in Chip and PIN fraud.
0:00:37 > 0:00:38Don't run us over.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40Are you making a lot of money out of it?
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Are you making a lot of money out of it?
0:00:43 > 0:00:47I'm Natalie Graham, with untold stories closer to home.
0:00:47 > 0:00:52From all around the south`east, this is Inside Out.
0:01:01 > 0:01:12Hello and welcome back to a brand new series of Inside Out.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15We are at Rochester Castle in the Medway Towns where we've
0:01:15 > 0:01:18been looking at the government's Help to Buy scheme.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Now, the scheme may have made it possible for some young people to
0:01:21 > 0:01:26get on the housing ladder but has it also fuelled a steep rise
0:01:26 > 0:01:29in house prices in the south`east, making the dream of owning a home
0:01:29 > 0:01:31impossible for others?
0:01:31 > 0:01:36Rachel Royce examines the pros and cons.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40OK, so this is the house you're looking at today.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44Living with Mum and Dad isn't most young couples' idea of fun but for
0:01:44 > 0:01:49Layla Fitzgerald and Bradley Devaney the arrangement has its perks.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53But the couple admit that by now they are keen to move
0:01:53 > 0:01:55into a house of their own.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59So, three years with Mum and Dad. What's that been like?
0:01:59 > 0:02:03It's had its positives and negatives. I really like it.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Because I like living with my mum and dad and having them doing
0:02:06 > 0:02:12my washing and tidying up by house when they come home from work.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15my washing and tidying up my house when they come home from work.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18But for the age that we are and the friends that we've got it's hard
0:02:19 > 0:02:20for us to sort of have friends down.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24They've spent three years saving up for a deposit to buy their own home.
0:02:24 > 0:02:25They are looking around Rochester.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27You are using the government's Help to Buy scheme.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29Yeah, with the mortgage that he had agreed,
0:02:29 > 0:02:32that is through the government Help to Buy scheme so we've got
0:02:32 > 0:02:35off 5% and then I believe that they underwrite it so they guarantee that
0:02:35 > 0:02:38if anything goes wrong with us, they guarantee our mortgage.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42It's the global financial crash of 2008 that lies
0:02:42 > 0:02:47behind the government's decision to step into the housing market.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Banks and building societies became fearful of lending money.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54This was bad news for house`buyers.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58Mortgage lenders, who in the past had demanded just 5% for a
0:02:58 > 0:03:00deposit on a house, now wanted 25%.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05The housing market went into a serious slump.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08So the government launched a scheme to kick`start the market.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11It was called Help to Buy.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16Help to Buy is controversial but some experts support it.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18You've got all this interesting data over here
0:03:18 > 0:03:20which tells us what is going on.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24Doug McWilliams is from the Centre for Economic and Business Research.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26There has been an impact on confidence and there has also
0:03:26 > 0:03:30been an impact on distribution of who has got the chance to buy
0:03:30 > 0:03:32houses because it has given a good chance to first`time buyers
0:03:33 > 0:03:35who don't have wealthy parents.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37Up until now, the only people who really had
0:03:37 > 0:03:40a chance to get into the first`time buyer market are people who have
0:03:40 > 0:03:43saved for really quite a long time or those with wealthy parents.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45Without Help to Buy, Brad and Layla would have been
0:03:45 > 0:03:50looking at having to find a ?30,000 deposit for their first home.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54They say it would have taken them ten years to save up.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57Instead, today they are able to start seriously house`hunting with
0:03:57 > 0:04:01a deposit of ?7,000.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05They have narrowed their search down to Sydney Road near Chatham.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08They hope to find a house on the side of the street with river views
0:04:08 > 0:04:13from the back for around 120,000.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17The Help to Buy scheme also encourages builders to build.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Here, at a brand`new development at Horsted Park in Chatham,
0:04:20 > 0:04:24Help to Buy is being used to help sell.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26So it works like this `
0:04:26 > 0:04:29the buyer just has to come up with a 5% deposit, the government stumps
0:04:29 > 0:04:35up a hefty 20% in the form of an interest`free loan, the mortgage is
0:04:35 > 0:04:41for 75% of the property price and then hopefully you can move in.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43The government says its scheme is working, with house`building now
0:04:43 > 0:04:51at the highest rate since 2007.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54One buyer who has bought a new home this week is Nishka Patel.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58We looked at this house and we thought we'd never be able to
0:04:58 > 0:04:59afford it.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Then we heard about Help to Buy and we thought, brilliant.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05We came back and we thought, yeah, this is the house we want.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07What sort of price is this house?
0:05:07 > 0:05:08Around the 400,000 mark.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10Otherwise you would have been looking at what?
0:05:10 > 0:05:13About 300,000.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17OK, so come in. This is our three`bedroom type.
0:05:17 > 0:05:18Feels very spacious.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22It's 1200 square feet, actually, which is a pretty good size.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Andrew Loveday is the sales and marketing director
0:05:25 > 0:05:28of Countryside, the developers who build Nishka's and the other homes
0:05:28 > 0:05:31here at Horsted Park.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34At the moment, they are building 1000 homes a year,
0:05:34 > 0:05:35but plan for more.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40We currently have three developments on the market in Medway Towns.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43We are planning the release of around about another three or
0:05:43 > 0:05:46four developments over the next 2`3 years.
0:05:46 > 0:05:50Actually, over the next five years, we will be producing around about
0:05:50 > 0:05:531500 homes in the Medway Towns area.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57Do you think you would be building as many houses as you are if it
0:05:57 > 0:05:59wasn't for Help to Buy?
0:05:59 > 0:06:02It would be happening but probably at a much slower rate.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07But there could be one big snag with the scheme and that's that some
0:06:07 > 0:06:12experts say it is forcing up house prices and they say that is making
0:06:12 > 0:06:14property even more unaffordable for first`time buyers `
0:06:14 > 0:06:22the very problem the scheme is trying to solve.
0:06:22 > 0:06:27Despite a slight cooling on prices reported last month, they
0:06:27 > 0:06:31have risen on average by around 8.5% in the south`east in the past year.
0:06:31 > 0:06:39In some property hotspots in London, prices have risen 25% in two years.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43The average price of a house now in the south`east is ?290,000.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47In London, it is close to half a million.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Rob Wood is the chief economist at Berenberg Bank and is
0:06:50 > 0:06:53a fierce critic of Help to Buy.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Help to Buy, I think, is dangerous
0:06:55 > 0:06:58because it fuels an expectation that prices are going to keep rising and
0:06:58 > 0:07:03that can encourage all sorts of odd behaviour in the housing market.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07You might feel you have to rush to buy a house now
0:07:07 > 0:07:09in case they get more expensive tomorrow and that's the sort
0:07:09 > 0:07:11of behaviour that starts a bubble.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15House prices across the UK are very expensive internationally and
0:07:15 > 0:07:18compared to our history, if we look in the south`east around Brighton,
0:07:18 > 0:07:22for instance, prices are around ten times typical earnings there.
0:07:22 > 0:07:31Brad and Layla are looking at their second house of the day.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35The first one they looked at had 37 viewings in one hour.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39This one is a two`bedroom house just around the corner.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Is there a fire behind there? There is, yes.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45It's a fireplace you like, isn't it? Yes, it was.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50Fireplaces are pretty important.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53The house looks promising at first but it has crooked walls and
0:07:53 > 0:07:57when they go outside they discover there is only a tiny courtyard.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59Oh, is that it?
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Do you every worry that because you are buying now when
0:08:02 > 0:08:06everyone has Help to Buy mortgages that you are buying at wrong time,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09that you might be buying at too high a price?
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Not really. It's a bit of this and that,
0:08:12 > 0:08:18We need to buy something somewhere and it's just
0:08:18 > 0:08:20so happens that the scheme is happening at the same time everyone
0:08:21 > 0:08:23else is given the same opportunity.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27So I don't know, what do we do, do we wait and they stop the scheme
0:08:27 > 0:08:31and then we are in a position where we can't afford to buy?
0:08:31 > 0:08:34So, has the scheme helped or made things worse?
0:08:34 > 0:08:37The Bank of England is asking that very question and will be reviewing
0:08:37 > 0:08:41its findings at the end of this month.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44I think it's a mistake to keep Help to Buy going.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47I think it should be wound down over the next 6`12 months.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51The problem it was trying to fix, that low deposit mortgages were not
0:08:51 > 0:08:56widely available, that is more or less fixed now.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Don't fiddle too much because if you fiddle too much the thing you could
0:08:59 > 0:09:02destroy is investor confidence.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05Investor confidence is going to create the housing supply that will
0:09:05 > 0:09:07automatically deal with the housing shortage.
0:09:07 > 0:09:13If you don't deal with the housing shortage,
0:09:13 > 0:09:14house prices are bound to be high.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18Opinion is sharply divided on Help to Buy but Brad and Layla are one
0:09:18 > 0:09:19couple the scheme has helped.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22It has been the leg up onto the property ladder they
0:09:22 > 0:09:22desperately wanted.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25They have put an offer in on a house in Sydney Road
0:09:25 > 0:09:27and it's been accepted.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32They are hoping to move in soon to their first home of their own.
0:09:38 > 0:09:39Rachel Royce reporting.
0:09:39 > 0:09:45Coming up on Inside Out...
0:09:45 > 0:09:46It's a Chip and PIN machine.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Once you swipe it, the data has already been saved
0:09:50 > 0:09:53from the first swipe but when you enter the PIN, the PIN is
0:09:53 > 0:09:57stored and now that is there.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01Well, it used to be that one Sussex railway never went anywhere
0:10:01 > 0:10:08in particular. But now things are picking up
0:10:08 > 0:10:11in particular. But now things are picking up.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24A quarter of a million visitors came to the Bluebell in the year after
0:10:24 > 0:10:26the reconnection to the mainline.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30That is up 60,000 from the previous year.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32Two years ago, we were a ?3 million business.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Last year, we were a ?4 million business.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38This is not just about amateurs playing trains.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41We like to think of ourselves as professionals.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44But can the Bluebell cope with its success or will the increase
0:10:44 > 0:10:48in numbers change the very things that visitors
0:10:48 > 0:10:51and volunteers love about the line?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54Nobody knew what was going to happen once we got to East Grinstead.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57We knew it would maybe get a bit busier but we didn't realise
0:10:57 > 0:10:59it would get as busy as it has.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03But how did what was once a quiet rural branch turn itself into a
0:11:03 > 0:11:06multi`million pound success story?
0:11:06 > 0:11:09British Railways first tried to close the line from East Grinstead
0:11:09 > 0:11:14to Lewis back in 1954.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17But a battling local resident, Margery Bessemer, discovered that
0:11:17 > 0:11:20the original Parliamentary Act that created the line said it was
0:11:20 > 0:11:25a statutory service and British Rail were forced to reopen it.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29However, a reluctant British Rail only ran trains at times that were
0:11:29 > 0:11:34of no use to commuters or shoppers so, as the line was little used,
0:11:34 > 0:11:38they got approval from Parliament in 1958 to close it again.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42And that is when a band of local enthusiasts stepped in.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45We held a meeting and over 100 people attended it
0:11:45 > 0:11:51and the idea was to preserve the puffer for posterity.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54When the Bluebell Society ran its first train
0:11:54 > 0:11:56on the seventh of August 1960,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59it became the first preserved standard gauge steam
0:11:59 > 0:12:03operated passenger railway in the world to operate a public service.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07It is the very success of the newly reconnected Bluebell
0:12:07 > 0:12:11that is changing things for both the visitors and the volunteers
0:12:11 > 0:12:15who keep the line running.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18It's 6am on a Saturday morning and, while most of us are still enjoying
0:12:18 > 0:12:23a lie in, the volunteered drivers of the Bluebell Railway are already
0:12:23 > 0:12:26a lie in, the volunteer drivers of the Bluebell Railway are already
0:12:26 > 0:12:28at work in the engine sheds preparing for one of
0:12:28 > 0:12:29the busiest weekends of the year.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31With a steam engine, you can't just flick
0:12:31 > 0:12:33the on/off switch and head off.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35They have to be gently coaxed into life.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39It's basically oiling up the whole of the motion,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41checking all the moving parts.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44It's the full fitness to run.
0:12:44 > 0:12:49It takes us two or three hours to get the engine ready in the morning.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52In spite of greater success, the railway still needs volunteers
0:12:52 > 0:12:54to be economically viable.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57What do they think about the changes the reconnection has brought?
0:12:57 > 0:13:01Now we are reconnected to East Grinstead, from my point of view,
0:13:01 > 0:13:05working on the engines is a longer day with more miles to cover but we
0:13:05 > 0:13:09can only generally do 12 hours so we have to fit a lot more in the day.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12Because we don't want to upset the new neighbours at
0:13:12 > 0:13:15East Grinstead, we have to try and keep the engines as quiet as
0:13:15 > 0:13:19possible when we are up there, which some of us, myself included, seem to
0:13:19 > 0:13:23find a bit difficult sometimes.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25The fact that we actually go somewhere now.
0:13:25 > 0:13:30In the past we have gone from nowhere to nowhere.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32But now we have actually got a mainline connection to
0:13:32 > 0:13:37East Grinstead, it's part of our job to keep the schedule now.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39It's not just the drivers, of course.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43There are hundreds of station staff, signalmen and guards.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48And they are making adjustments to the new era of professionalism
0:13:48 > 0:13:50at the Bluebell.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53People come here for the day and they want to enjoy themselves and
0:13:53 > 0:13:57they don't understand that we have to keep to a set timetable.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59They think they can just turn up and get on
0:13:59 > 0:14:03and the train will go whenever they are ready but I'm afraid we have to
0:14:03 > 0:14:05keep to a strict timetable.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08Recognising changes were needed, the Bluebell brought
0:14:08 > 0:14:12in a man with an impressive track record in the railway industry.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16Former Irish Rail CEO Dick Fearn is the man charged with taking
0:14:16 > 0:14:21the business forward.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24Is it difficult balancing that need to become more professional
0:14:24 > 0:14:27with keeping the volunteers happy who have worked here for years?
0:14:27 > 0:14:28I don't think it's too difficult.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31I think it is possible for people to enjoy
0:14:31 > 0:14:35their contribution to the Bluebell.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37It is a hobby.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39For most of those colleagues it as a hobby.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41They come here and they want to have great pleasure
0:14:41 > 0:14:44in carrying out their hobby.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Of course, we also must make it very pleasurable
0:14:47 > 0:14:54for the people who are spending very good money to come and visit us.
0:14:54 > 0:15:14Bluebell is a business that can only survive it can rely on the support
0:15:14 > 0:15:14support
0:15:14 > 0:15:16of a happy volunteer workforce and while
0:15:16 > 0:15:19the new chairman works out how to keep the delicate balance between
0:15:19 > 0:15:21professionalism and fun, operations manager Chris Knibbs has
0:15:21 > 0:15:23some more practical problems to face as increased numbers have an impact
0:15:23 > 0:15:25on the ancient trains and carriages.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28There is now an increase in mileage on the locomotives and rolling stock
0:15:28 > 0:15:31so we have to maintain those to a certain amount of mileage or days
0:15:31 > 0:15:35running so we have had to adjust all of that and there is quite
0:15:35 > 0:15:36a lot involved in it.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38It has changed the railway quite considerably.
0:15:38 > 0:15:39Last year, because of the number of passengers,
0:15:40 > 0:15:41you had to lay on some diesels.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43Is that what the Bluebell Railway is really about?
0:15:43 > 0:15:46I mean, you know, Bluebell is synonymous with the steam train
0:15:46 > 0:15:50so we try our absolute best to make sure that is what they get but it is
0:15:50 > 0:15:54important to run a service and if it is either no service or a service
0:15:54 > 0:15:56with a diesel, we will run a service with a diesel.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59But can the public ever be as enthusiastic about an old diesel
0:15:59 > 0:16:01engine as they are about the Bluebell's steam locomotives?
0:16:01 > 0:16:04Diesels, I'm afraid I can't work up any enthusiasm for them.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09But many people, younger people after my generation, probably can.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11I don't know.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13It excites every sense, doesn't it?
0:16:13 > 0:16:18The look of it, the sound of it, the smell of it.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Ah. Wonderful.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23I like to see a good steam engine, I must say.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27A nice boiling kettle on rails is interesting.
0:16:27 > 0:16:3040% of visitors now come down the main line to East Grinstead and
0:16:30 > 0:16:34that has had a positive effect on the town because many of them are
0:16:34 > 0:16:38choosing to spend their money there.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42It certainly has, on lovely days like today, it does attract more
0:16:42 > 0:16:44people into the town.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48It's obviously a very positive thing for
0:16:48 > 0:16:50East Grinstead and the High Street.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Since its creation, the Bluebell has changed from a
0:16:54 > 0:16:58project run by a band of enthusiasts to a multi`million pound business.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01Change is still underway and volunteers and chairman alike
0:17:01 > 0:17:05are adjusting to the new culture of strict timetables, long days,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08more professionalism and the occasional diesel,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12as well as making plans for an even bigger future.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15We do have another possible extension we can do
0:17:15 > 0:17:20and that is westwards ultimately to Hayward's Heath and the main line.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24While the Bluebell grapples with the problems created
0:17:24 > 0:17:28by its increasing success, our crossgenerational love affair with
0:17:28 > 0:17:32steam shows no sign of dying out.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35So the Bluebell Railway budgets have to find a way to cope with being
0:17:36 > 0:17:41so popular.
0:17:43 > 0:17:48WHISTLE BLOWS
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Now, hundreds of people in Kent and Sussex are targeted every year
0:18:05 > 0:18:09by fraudsters bent on stealing our credit card details
0:18:09 > 0:18:10and PIN numbers.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13So for the last nine months, Inside Out's Jonathan Gibson has
0:18:13 > 0:18:17been infiltrating one criminal gang which has been using Chip and PIN
0:18:17 > 0:18:21machines to empty our accounts.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26It's Friday night and for most of us the weekend has started.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Me included.
0:18:28 > 0:18:34A few drinks and some food out and, if like me you've never got
0:18:34 > 0:18:43cash, a card comes in handy.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47For ten years now, we have all been using these ` Chip and PIN machines.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52And the place I've come for dinner is no different.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56Remember when we used to sign for things in shops?
0:18:56 > 0:19:00The banks told us Chip and PIN would be much safer.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Try telling Julie Cleaver that.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08We went to buy fuel at a petrol station and there was a camera set
0:19:08 > 0:19:11up in the ceiling that was looking down onto the machine and recording
0:19:11 > 0:19:16us as we put in our PIN numbers.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19The thieves who stole her cash were caught red`handed.
0:19:19 > 0:19:24But a quick look online shows there are many more victims.
0:19:24 > 0:19:29That is the thing with the internet, there are other good people
0:19:29 > 0:19:31on there, like the innocent victims.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34And then there are the bad.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36I'm talking to a man who knows all about stolen
0:19:36 > 0:19:38PIN numbers because he steals them.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41And he's looking for a new partner.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45Why not?
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Funnily enough, I haven't mentioned I'm a journalist.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50He thinks I own a restaurant with card`paying customers.
0:19:50 > 0:19:56But I need to gain his trust and that is taking months.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59But one day he tells me a parcel is in the post.
0:19:59 > 0:20:06It's a Chip and PIN machine.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08I've already spent months gaining this criminal's confidence but he
0:20:08 > 0:20:12still doesn't trust me completely.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15He has finally agreed to chat but he is banking on staying
0:20:15 > 0:20:16anonymous over the internet.
0:20:16 > 0:20:21We'll see about that.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23Press F1 then 1.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27He tells me the machine he's sent me remembers people's card numbers.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Once you've swiped it, the data has already been saved from
0:20:30 > 0:20:34the first swipe but now when they enter the PIN, the PIN is stored
0:20:34 > 0:20:36and now all the data is there.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39That's everything he needs to steal people's cash.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41Do it like how the restaurant's receipt looks
0:20:41 > 0:20:43because it's fully customisable.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46He has told me to put this error message on the bottom
0:20:46 > 0:20:49of the receipt so my customers will think the machine is not working.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53That is so I can swap it for my normal one to take
0:20:53 > 0:20:56their real payment.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00What I now need to work out is a way of putting that to the test.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03I think I have found the answer.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Pay`as`you`go debit cards.
0:21:05 > 0:21:11They are a bit like mobile phone top`ups.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13You can only spend what you put on them.
0:21:14 > 0:21:15I've bought 20 to try out.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17I need him to think they belong to my customers.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19But will it work?
0:21:19 > 0:21:21He has told me I need to download the data using some
0:21:21 > 0:21:23cables he sent me in the post.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27Can you just plug that into your laptop?
0:21:27 > 0:21:29A couple more connections and we are ready to rock.
0:21:29 > 0:21:30Is it downloading?
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Yeah, it's receiving stuff.
0:21:32 > 0:21:37When it is done, just send me that file.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39Look at this.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43He has just e`mailed me through the rest of the card numbers
0:21:43 > 0:21:47and the PINs that go with them.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49These cards here.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53In a couple of minutes, he has got everything he needs to make exact
0:21:53 > 0:21:58copies of all these cards, which he can then use in cashpoints.
0:21:58 > 0:22:08He says he has done that already, time and time again.
0:22:08 > 0:22:08Remember Julie?
0:22:08 > 0:22:12She had her card cloned at the garage.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15I want to show her how Chip and PIN fraud has moved on.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17Here's the receipt. What do you think?
0:22:17 > 0:22:19Wow. It is just the real thing, isn't
0:22:19 > 0:22:24If I was in a restaurant and they gave me this, I would accept
0:22:24 > 0:22:29that my payment had been cancelled, none the wiser.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33If Julie is shocked, what will the banks think?
0:22:33 > 0:22:37I think the encouraging thing is that these frauds are very rare.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40We have only seen one recent instance of them and we are seeing
0:22:40 > 0:22:43convictions in the Old Bailey in respect of that at the moment.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45We know that the industry's existing advice to
0:22:45 > 0:22:47consumers is to protect your PIN.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49With something like that, there is no point, is there?
0:22:49 > 0:22:52It is the device itself that takes that PIN number.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55I think the first reassurance to give everybody when it comes to this
0:22:55 > 0:23:00type of fraud, which is very rare, is that even if you are
0:23:00 > 0:23:03the victim of it, you will receive a full refund of all of your losses.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06With this type of fraud, in common with other ones as well,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10we always advise consumers to check their statements.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14I am about to do just that.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17As all the pay`as`you`go debit cards are in
0:23:17 > 0:23:20my name, it also means I can check what has been happening to them.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21Take these two, for example.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24They have never left my wallet but according to the transaction
0:23:24 > 0:23:28history they have been emptied of cash in the Philippines.
0:23:28 > 0:23:33So either he is stealing my money or someone he knows is.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36But he has also sent me a second machine,
0:23:36 > 0:23:38so at least he is not suspicious.
0:23:38 > 0:23:39But who is he?
0:23:39 > 0:23:41He is taking cash out in the Philippines
0:23:41 > 0:23:43but the machines came from Britain.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48I have also sent money to Canada for the cables he has posted.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50I'm not sure that has really helped.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54He could be on either side of the world.
0:23:54 > 0:23:55OK, time to change tactics.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59How about I tell him I've broken the machine?
0:23:59 > 0:24:03I'm hoping he'll ask me to send it for repair and
0:24:03 > 0:24:07if he trusts me enough he might give me an address, although it might not
0:24:07 > 0:24:09be his, of course.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Bingo.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13He has taken the bait, telling me to send it to
0:24:13 > 0:24:14Marcus Montague in Canada.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16He is the guy I paid for the cables.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21But this is one parcel I plan to deliver by hand.
0:24:21 > 0:24:27Bags packed, passports checked, let's go find him.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Toronto, Canada.
0:24:36 > 0:24:43I am heading out of town, 25 miles along the freeway to Pickering.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46Is the guy that we've been given the address for the guy that has
0:24:46 > 0:24:49been on Skype that we been talking to for, what, months now?
0:24:49 > 0:24:56But there is only one way to be sure and that means me playing postie.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Yes, we are happy to help at TRM Couriers.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03OK, so the accent needs work but I'm hoping the uniform will shine.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05We've put a tracker inside the machine.
0:25:05 > 0:25:11Oh, and I'm wearing a secret camera.
0:25:24 > 0:25:26Yeah, it's Marcus Montague and he signed
0:25:26 > 0:25:28our fake delivery note to prove it.
0:25:28 > 0:25:33It's time to confront him.
0:25:36 > 0:25:37Don't hit him.
0:25:37 > 0:25:47HORN BEEPS
0:25:47 > 0:25:50I've got a delivery for you, mate.
0:25:50 > 0:25:51Delivery for you.
0:25:51 > 0:25:56I can't accept that, I don't know about it, you know?
0:25:56 > 0:25:56Right, OK.
0:25:56 > 0:25:57It's time to come clean.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59Actually, I'm from the BBC.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02BBC Television in the UK.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, actually, about your
0:26:05 > 0:26:07involvement in Chip and PIN fraud.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09Chip and PIN fraud, mate, do you know about it?
0:26:09 > 0:26:10No.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13I think you do because we've been sending deliveries to your address
0:26:13 > 0:26:15and you've been taking them.
0:26:15 > 0:26:16No, I haven't.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Don't go away, mate.
0:26:19 > 0:26:20We're asking you a few questions here.
0:26:20 > 0:26:21Don't run us over.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24I'm not going to run you over. I don't know what going on.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27I just need to know your involvement with Chip and PIN fraud.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29Who are you actually involved with, then?
0:26:29 > 0:26:31You guys are scaring me.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33Who are you actually working with?
0:26:33 > 0:26:36Are you making a lot of money out of it?
0:26:36 > 0:26:42Are you making a lot of money out of it?
0:26:43 > 0:26:45Well, not many answers.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Raised a few more questions, perhaps.
0:26:49 > 0:26:55But whatever the case, he wasn't very keen to hang around, was he?
0:26:55 > 0:26:58I think that's probably the last we'll see of him.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01At least for now.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07Can I have a couple of pounds of plums and some apples as well?
0:27:07 > 0:27:10Back home, I'm still in the market for answers.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12But VeriFone, which makes the machines,
0:27:12 > 0:27:15doesn't want to be interviewed.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17I wanted to show it our evidence.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19It decided on a statement.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22VeriFone says the fraud is not a result of tampering with VeriFone
0:27:22 > 0:27:24devices,
0:27:24 > 0:27:28and requires the collusion of two criminals.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30The company says it takes the security
0:27:30 > 0:27:32of consumer data very seriously,
0:27:32 > 0:27:34it works with authorities to uncover fraud,
0:27:34 > 0:27:36and its machines are not to blame.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Put your PIN in, please, mate.
0:27:39 > 0:27:45You know what, mate? I think I'll leave it.
0:27:49 > 0:27:51Now, if you want any more information
0:27:51 > 0:27:54about tonight's show then you can visit our Kent or Sussex websites.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57You can watch the whole programme again on iPlayer.
0:27:57 > 0:28:02Just go to bbc.co.uk/insideout.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Coming up next week, should BPA plastic
0:28:04 > 0:28:10in our food packaging be banned?
0:28:10 > 0:28:13We are not waiting until we see the damage.
0:28:13 > 0:28:18We are just doing this in order to protect the people, the citizens.
0:28:18 > 0:28:22Top model then turned war photographer.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25Lee Miller's life at Farley Farm in Sussex.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27She gave the impression of being a useless drunk.
0:28:27 > 0:28:32I was astonished when my late wife Susannah found this stash that
0:28:32 > 0:28:36contained most of Lee's work.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40And getting to the bottom of the sewage problem in Thanet
0:28:40 > 0:28:44this summer.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46Nobody really wants to talk about these horrible things.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50We flush and forget and then tend to think everything is the
0:28:50 > 0:28:52responsibility of the water company.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54That's it from us for tonight from Rochester.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Thanks for watching. See you next week.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10Hello, I'm Ellie Crisell with your 90 Second Update.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13The parents of seriously ill Ashya King are tonight in a Spanish
0:29:13 > 0:29:16jail as they fight extradition.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19They were arrested after removing him from a Southampton hospital.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23The family say they did it to get alternative cancer treatment.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26New Government measures to try to stop Britons going to fight in Syria
0:29:26 > 0:29:27and Iraq.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Police will be able to seize passports before they travel.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33But there's no deal yet on stopping them returning here.
0:29:33 > 0:29:34Fractions and computer coding.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37Five-year-olds in England will now be learning them at school.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39It's part of new curriculum changes - some
0:29:39 > 0:29:42teachers argue they're unrealistic.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45Nude photos of celebrities including Jennifer Lawrence have
0:29:45 > 0:29:47been leaked online.
0:29:47 > 0:29:48It's after an apparent hack.
0:29:48 > 0:29:50Some stars say they're fake.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53The Hunger Games actress is taking legal action.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55Three hours left on football transfer deadline day.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57Manchester United's splashed more cash.