:00:06. > :00:14.Hello and welcome to Inside Out South West. Stories from close to
:00:14. > :00:16.home. Tonight: Calls for action after the M5 pile-up. We reveal how
:00:16. > :00:24.experts recommended a new fog warning system for the motorway 18
:00:24. > :00:27.months before the fatal crash. Even 10 miles an hour, 15 miles an hour,
:00:27. > :00:34.would have made some of those fatal crashes perhaps near-fatal and
:00:34. > :00:37.given people half a chance. Also: The courage of Kirianne. How one
:00:37. > :00:41.Devon woman has become the campaigning face of young war
:00:41. > :00:51.widows. It is simply about honouring him and being the best
:00:51. > :00:56.wife I can in death, as I was in life. And celebrating Exeter's part
:00:56. > :01:04.in the Great British air race. We recapture the spirit of the real
:01:04. > :01:08.Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines. It's probably the biggest
:01:08. > :01:18.challenge that the early aviators, in terms of a race, had faced so
:01:18. > :01:29.
:01:29. > :01:32.far. I am Sam Smith and this is Inside Out South West. The fatal M5
:01:32. > :01:38.pile-up on a foggy night last month has highlighted how catastrophic a
:01:39. > :01:41.sudden loss of visibility on roads can be. There is sophisticated
:01:41. > :01:47.technology available which can detect such dangers and warn
:01:47. > :01:56.motorists. It is in action elsewhere in the UK but not in the
:01:56. > :01:58.south-west. We have been investigating why. Last month's
:01:58. > :02:04.horrific pile-up on the M5, in which seven people died, was
:02:04. > :02:08.Britain's worst for 20 years. Unusually, the police were quick to
:02:08. > :02:11.suggest the cause. There was very significant smoke across the
:02:11. > :02:18.carriageway which, in effect, caused a bank similar to a fog bank,
:02:18. > :02:21.which was very distracting and difficult to drive through.
:02:21. > :02:25.role of smoke, possibly from a nearby fireworks display, is still
:02:25. > :02:31.under investigation. But some witnesses say what they drove into
:02:31. > :02:35.that night was not smoke but fog. We were traveling on the M5,
:02:35. > :02:42.getting up to speed, and we noticed a white wall and I turned and said,
:02:42. > :02:45.well, that's the thickest fog I've ever seen. It is something I have
:02:45. > :02:52.never seen the like of before. I have driven for many years, through
:02:52. > :02:55.fog before. I have never seen anything as sudden as this. Where
:02:55. > :03:03.there was no fog at all previously, to suddenly hitting a wall of
:03:04. > :03:06.extremely impenetrable fog. Inside Out has learned that, despite the
:03:06. > :03:14.apparent focus on smoke, the police are also investigating the possible
:03:14. > :03:18.role of fog. Tonight, we can reveal that the part of the M5 where so
:03:18. > :03:22.many people died is known by the authorities to be one of the most
:03:22. > :03:25.fog-prone stretches of motorway in the country. So bad, in fact, that
:03:25. > :03:30.only last year, experts recommend that its fog warning system be
:03:30. > :03:38.upgraded. A recommendation on which there are apparently no plans to
:03:38. > :03:41.act. The M5's current warning system is outdated. Its electronic
:03:41. > :03:44.boards can signal fog, but only if staff at the Highways Agency
:03:44. > :03:51.control room activate them. And they rely on people on the ground,
:03:51. > :04:00.like the police, reporting a problem. On that night, no one did.
:04:00. > :04:04.So fog was not signed. Fog has always been a danger on Britain's
:04:04. > :04:09.roads. Early efforts to protect motorists ranged from the basic to
:04:09. > :04:14.the bizarre. NEWSREEL: Motorway police are being armed with ray
:04:14. > :04:17.guns. They are harmless, except for fog warning lights. Because they
:04:17. > :04:20.relied on human intervention, the systems could be hit-and-miss.
:04:20. > :04:28.NEWSREEL: Our motorway cop shows how good a marksman he is on the
:04:28. > :04:33.move with the new space-age lighter. It took nine deaths in the 80s for
:04:33. > :04:39.things to change. The coroner's court heard how the police had no
:04:39. > :04:43.warning of a sudden blanket of fog which descended on the motorway.
:04:43. > :04:47.The M25 pile-up was at the time Britain's worst. Questions were
:04:47. > :04:50.quickly asked about its fog warning system. The motorway had fog
:04:50. > :04:57.warning lights, but it was the job of the police to switch them on.
:04:57. > :05:00.They hadn't. It must be remembered that a police officer has to
:05:00. > :05:05.physically come down here himself and either use an electronic device,
:05:05. > :05:08.such as this one, or a key to turn those lights on. In spite of the
:05:08. > :05:12.fact that there is now a fully operational motorway control centre
:05:12. > :05:17.only a few miles from here. This, Britain's most modern motorway,
:05:17. > :05:21.still has manually operated hazard warning lights. Such was the outcry
:05:21. > :05:28.that the M25 got a new state-of- the-art system. Signs which are
:05:28. > :05:32.automatically triggered by roadside visibility sensors. It worked.
:05:32. > :05:40.Motorists heeded the warnings and slowed down. Yet the technology was
:05:40. > :05:42.not put on other roads. And in 1991, tragedy struck again. The smoke
:05:42. > :05:46.from the crash and subsequent explosion lingered over the scene
:05:46. > :05:53.for hours. 50 yards of twisted and burnt metal sprawled across three
:05:53. > :05:56.lanes of the London-bound carriageway. Lorry driver Bob
:05:56. > :06:00.Flowerdew was involved in that crash. An experience he will never
:06:00. > :06:07.forget. What did he think when he heard about last month's M5 pile-
:06:07. > :06:11.up? Not again. Are people ever going to learn? You had the M5, the
:06:12. > :06:16.M42 a few years ago as well. I don't know, people just seem to
:06:16. > :06:20.forget very quickly. It just happens again, then there is a big
:06:20. > :06:30.outcry and a few years down the line it happens and it all rolls
:06:30. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:33.back. It was this one then that one. It just seems to keep happening.
:06:33. > :06:36.There has to be some way of giving pre-warnings, basically, for fog
:06:36. > :06:43.like it. I don't know the answer personally but obviously there are
:06:43. > :06:47.brainy people around who should come up with answers. And indeed,
:06:47. > :06:50.there are. I traveled to meet Hans Romaine, who helped install an
:06:50. > :06:58.automatic fog detention system in Holland after a fatal pile-up there
:06:58. > :07:06.20 years ago. In 1990 there was a very severe accident during very
:07:06. > :07:09.dense fog on the A60. There were many deaths and casualties. And
:07:09. > :07:12.this caused the Ministry of Transport to ask us to implement a
:07:12. > :07:22.formal warning project to detect dense fog and warn drivers of speed
:07:22. > :07:25.
:07:25. > :07:31.limits. The sensors are similar to those on the M25. They detect and
:07:31. > :07:36.warn not only of fog but anything that affects visibility. And,
:07:36. > :07:39.according to Hans Romaine, they rarely get it wrong. This is
:07:39. > :07:42.completely automatic, there is no human being involved? No, it's
:07:42. > :07:45.better not to because you can't lay the responsibility with human
:07:45. > :07:54.beings. Those thick patches of fog are so unexpected that you cannot
:07:54. > :07:57.give this task to a human being, as far as we think. So, a totally
:07:57. > :08:03.automated system built from the ground up in just six months,
:08:03. > :08:09.designed to make a Dutch motorway safer. But does it work? I went to
:08:09. > :08:12.meet the man who spent two years evaluating it. Yes, the system does
:08:12. > :08:18.help people reduce their speed further than they would do just for
:08:18. > :08:20.bad visibility. You get fewer accidents? After the system was
:08:20. > :08:23.installed, for many years, fog accidents hardly occurred any more
:08:23. > :08:30.on these roads. Whereas they did continue to rise in this
:08:30. > :08:35.environment. How important is it that drivers believe the signs that
:08:35. > :08:39.they see? Trust automatically develops. This is one of the
:08:39. > :08:42.sensors we are passing. As soon as you have fog, the system warns
:08:42. > :08:50.people and that means, if you have such a warning, quite soon you will
:08:50. > :08:53.be confronted with fog. By means of that very close correspondence
:08:53. > :09:01.between the warning and the fog itself, trust will automatically
:09:01. > :09:08.develop. Back then, the cost of the technology was high. Nearly
:09:08. > :09:10.�250,000 per mile. But that did not put the Government off. The
:09:10. > :09:12.political will to install this expensive but apparently effective
:09:12. > :09:20.technology came about partly because everybody knew that a major
:09:20. > :09:25.cause of the accident here was fog. But back in the UK, with the M5
:09:25. > :09:32.pile-up, things are not quite as clear-cut. Here, it's not just fog
:09:32. > :09:35.but smoke that is under investigation. Both, in fact, might
:09:35. > :09:40.have played a part, because experts say pollutants like smoke can make
:09:40. > :09:45.fog worse. Fog consists of droplets of water suspended in the air,
:09:45. > :09:49.which scatters the light. And that is what reduces visibility. But
:09:49. > :09:51.when the droplets form in the atmosphere, they have to form on a
:09:51. > :09:57.particle of pollution and there is always some pollution in the
:09:57. > :10:00.atmosphere. And if there is a lot of pollution, in general, there
:10:00. > :10:05.will be more droplets formed and more scattering and so the fog will
:10:05. > :10:08.appear denser. Crucially, whether the M5 crash happened in fog, smoke
:10:08. > :10:16.or a combination of the two, a sensor at this spot would have
:10:16. > :10:19.detected the loss of visibility. But there are no such sensors on
:10:19. > :10:23.the M5 or, indeed, in the south- west. They have, however, been
:10:23. > :10:31.recently installed in the north- west as part of an automated system.
:10:31. > :10:40.The cost? �180,000. We obtained this report done by consultants for
:10:40. > :10:43.the Highways Agency last year. It not only identifies the M5 accident
:10:43. > :10:47.spot as high-risk for fog, but it also recommends installing an
:10:47. > :10:51.automated fog warning system. We asked the Highways Agency whether
:10:51. > :10:54.there were any plans to do so. It said there were not. And that it
:10:54. > :10:57.would only look at safety improvements on the M5 after the
:10:57. > :11:03.results of the police investigation were known. But some of those
:11:03. > :11:07.involved in that terrible accident would like action now. There is a
:11:07. > :11:12.big fog danger along the whole M5. The earliest indication you give
:11:12. > :11:15.people to slow down will be beneficial. Even 10 miles an hour,
:11:15. > :11:24.15 miles an hour would have made some of those fatal crashes perhaps
:11:24. > :11:27.near-fatal. And it would have given people half a chance. I think that
:11:28. > :11:37.would be a phenomenal idea. And why not? If that is something that can
:11:37. > :11:40.be provided or a lesson that can be learned, definitely. When her
:11:40. > :11:42.husband died on active service in Afghanistan, Kirianne Curley from
:11:42. > :11:48.Devon devoted herself to campaigning for better treatment
:11:48. > :11:53.for bereaved military families. Tonight, Kirianne tells Inside Out
:11:53. > :12:02.how she has reluctantly become the face of war widows. And how her
:12:02. > :12:08.campaigning work is not over yet. Wootton Bassett, 2010. Corporal
:12:08. > :12:11.Steven Curley is brought back to Britain from Afghanistan. I said
:12:11. > :12:19.goodbye to my husband as he deployed to Afghanistan in the
:12:19. > :12:28.knowledge that he would be coming home. He never did. A Royal Marine
:12:28. > :12:31.from 40 Commando, Corporal Curley was one of the elite. A mountain
:12:31. > :12:36.leader and section commander. In May 2010, he was blown up by an IED
:12:36. > :12:44.during a patrol in Sangin in Helmand Province. Steven was
:12:44. > :12:47.murdered. Bottom line is, my husband was murdered. He did not
:12:47. > :12:53.die, he was killed. After Steven's death, Kirianne was given his post-
:12:53. > :12:58.mortem report. I could have just been reading some kind of gruesome
:12:58. > :13:08.fiction, until they started describing him. What made him him.
:13:08. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:15.His hair, the colour of his eyes. And then it became... This wasn't
:13:15. > :13:18.anybody any more. This was my Steve. Kirianne had heard rumours about
:13:18. > :13:22.how he died, but nothing officially. So she wasn't prepared for the
:13:22. > :13:26.inquest in Exeter more then one year later. Sadly, it was alleged,
:13:26. > :13:29.and I have to stress that it was only alleged at this time, that
:13:29. > :13:39.Stephen was killed by a 14-year-old boy who was approached by the
:13:39. > :13:42.
:13:42. > :13:44.Taliban and offered $80, which is �50, to detonate a command wire IED.
:13:44. > :13:51.The coroner adjourned the hearing, asking for more information about
:13:51. > :13:55.the allegations before coming to a verdict. I am not a barrister, I am
:13:55. > :14:01.not in the military, and you kind of need to be both to even begin to
:14:01. > :14:04.understand the inquest process. He was not a soldier, he was a man. A
:14:04. > :14:09.soldier was something he did. And I think that gets lost somewhere in
:14:09. > :14:19.between this whole process. It gets forgotten about, that this was
:14:19. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:25.somebody... To the world, he was a man, a soldier. To me, he was my
:14:25. > :14:28.world. November, and Kirianne is packed and ready for two days of
:14:28. > :14:35.public engagements around the country. The first, tonight in
:14:35. > :14:39.Exeter. Her mother, Ann, is going with her. It has started to become
:14:39. > :14:45.part of the fabric of her being now. It really matters. It's not just
:14:45. > :14:52.because it affected her, so I'm going to do something. It really
:14:52. > :14:55.matters to her. Have you got tissues? I saw her get married, I
:14:55. > :15:05.was there when the baby was born. And you don't expect your 27-year-
:15:05. > :15:09.
:15:09. > :15:16.old daughter to be a widow. You The Devon Festival of Remembrance.
:15:16. > :15:19.An annual tribute to the armed forces and their families. Kirianne
:15:19. > :15:29.is one of the guests of honour, widows from conflicts past and
:15:29. > :15:31.
:15:31. > :15:33.Tonight is not about Kirianne. It really isn't. Tonight, when she
:15:33. > :15:36.joins that muster, she will be standing there in Stephen's place
:15:36. > :15:46.and she will be honouring Stephen and those others who lost their
:15:46. > :15:54.
:15:54. > :15:58.lives and those others who were injured. People need to be aware
:15:58. > :16:02.that there are too many war widows out there that look like me, that
:16:02. > :16:07.are young with young children. Sadly, we have so long without our
:16:07. > :16:12.loved ones to live. Her mother sees both her public calm and her
:16:12. > :16:18.private grief. She's great. She helps me the most by not trying to
:16:18. > :16:21.pretend that it's all right that Stephen was killed. It's not OK.
:16:21. > :16:31.She just silently stands by my side and says, "This shouldn't have
:16:31. > :16:39.
:16:39. > :16:42.Please welcome the choir and the With Remembrance Day past, Kirianne
:16:42. > :16:50.returns to the inquest campaign, sending a public letter to David
:16:50. > :16:53.Cameron. I'm convinced the only way to properly reform the system is by
:16:53. > :16:56.appointing a chief coroner. I urge you to honour Stephen's memory and
:16:56. > :17:06.the memory of all those like Stephen have given their lives in
:17:06. > :17:13.defence of this country and decide The same week, the government has a
:17:13. > :17:19.surprise change of heart and agrees to appoint a chief coroner.
:17:19. > :17:29.Platform 5, Exeter St David's Station. Kirianne's very personal
:17:29. > :17:31.
:17:31. > :17:34.campaign ends, too. Ready... Wow. The unveiling of the memorial
:17:34. > :17:44.plaque to her husband, helped by son William, who was 17 weeks old
:17:44. > :17:47.when Stephen died. That's your name, Mummy's name, Daddy's name. Steve
:17:47. > :17:52.and I met on this platform after he returned from his last tour of
:17:52. > :17:58.Afghanistan. We were both alighting the same train and I swapped my
:17:58. > :18:08.first class ticket to sit next to him on the train. The rest is
:18:08. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:21.history, as they say. On the plaque, her poem to Stephen. Kirianne is
:18:21. > :18:25.still waiting for her husband's inquest resumed. Since his death,
:18:25. > :18:28.103 service personnel have died in Afghanistan. Meanwhile, Kirianne
:18:28. > :18:36.says that she will continue lobbying until she feels she has
:18:36. > :18:39.achieved her goals. Then, she can retire from the spotlight. It's not
:18:39. > :18:43.about sitting in front of cameras, because I don't enjoy it. I don't
:18:43. > :18:51.want to do it. It is not about being in the newspaper or being on
:18:51. > :19:01.TV. It is simply about honouring him and being the best wife I can
:19:01. > :19:06.
:19:06. > :19:16.in death as I was in life. And about making my son as proud of me
:19:16. > :19:21.
:19:21. > :19:24.as he will be of his dad. 100 years ago, all eyes were turned
:19:24. > :19:30.skywards as one of the wonders of the Edwardian age captured the
:19:30. > :19:35.nation. The airplane was less than a decade old but already a group of
:19:35. > :19:38.pioneering aviators were planning a daring challenge. David Whiteley
:19:38. > :19:48.has been finding out about the Circuit of Britain Race and its
:19:48. > :20:01.
:20:01. > :20:05.These days, we take flying very But 100 years ago, the skies were a
:20:05. > :20:09.brave new frontier. The aircraft had only been around for a few
:20:09. > :20:16.years and pilots were still working out the best way to take off, to
:20:16. > :20:20.land and, most importantly, how to stop falling out of the sky. Then,
:20:20. > :20:23.the stakes were raised even higher. In 1911, the Daily Mail invited
:20:23. > :20:33.aviators from all over the world to race around the entire country,
:20:33. > :20:35.
:20:35. > :20:40.with the winner of the Circuit of This was probably the biggest
:20:40. > :20:43.challenge for the aviators that they had faced so far. You had a
:20:43. > :20:47.very long race, the longest yet, and you had the British weather to
:20:47. > :20:56.deal with. It went right up into Scotland, over mountains, it was an
:20:56. > :21:00.enormous challenge for those Starting at Brooklands in Surrey,
:21:00. > :21:06.they were undertaking a journey of more than 1,000 miles. Nothing like
:21:06. > :21:10.this had ever been attempted before. Indeed, back in 1911, many people
:21:10. > :21:13.had never even seen a car, let alone a plane. But the early
:21:13. > :21:20.aviators were determined to prove the aircraft was safe, fast and
:21:20. > :21:24.reliable. Before long, 30 pilots had signed up for the air race,
:21:24. > :21:27.with an incredible collection of flying machines. They were all
:21:27. > :21:33.hoping to be the first to cross the finish line, or at least complete
:21:33. > :21:36.the epic journey. Today, the Shuttleworth Collection in
:21:36. > :21:42.Bedfordshire has more airworthy examples of the type of aircraft
:21:42. > :21:45.that flew in the race than anywhere else in the world. John, is this an
:21:45. > :21:50.example of the kind of flying machine that would have taken part
:21:50. > :21:56.in the Circuit of Britain Race? Absolutely. We've got the
:21:56. > :21:59.Deperdussin, Bleriot, Blackburn, Bristol Boxkite. They look really
:21:59. > :22:05.different - this one, the wings are high, this one, they are low. This
:22:06. > :22:08.one looks like a kite, they really are a mixture of designs. That is
:22:08. > :22:13.absolutely right. In those days, the conventional airplane wasn't a
:22:13. > :22:15.convention, so it was very experimental. They tried biplanes,
:22:15. > :22:25.triplanes, quadroplanes, monoplanes, different layouts and
:22:25. > :22:29.
:22:29. > :22:31.configurations Nobody knew how to make an airplane as we know it now.
:22:31. > :22:34.On Saturday, 22nd July 1911, an extraordinary collection of
:22:34. > :22:42.aircraft and their pilots gathered for the first leg from Brooklands
:22:42. > :22:44.in Surrey to Hendon. It caused a sensation. Thousands of people from
:22:44. > :22:54.across the country turned out to see these extraordinary flying
:22:54. > :22:56.machines take to the air. From Hendon, the second leg would take
:22:56. > :23:02.the aircraft north through Harrogate and Newcastle, and on to
:23:02. > :23:10.Edinburgh. Leg three would see them through Stirling, Glasgow, Carlisle,
:23:10. > :23:13.Manchester and Bristol. Then it was West to Exeter, where just before
:23:13. > :23:18.6am on 26th July, a commotion indicated that the first airmen had
:23:18. > :23:23.been seen on the horizon. Large numbers of people had stayed up
:23:23. > :23:26.overnight to ensure they didn't miss the show. The pilots weren't
:23:26. > :23:31.around for long. Running repairs allowed just enough time for the
:23:31. > :23:34.spectators to get a closer look before they set off again. Later
:23:34. > :23:40.that day, the arrivals made headline news with the Express and
:23:40. > :23:43.Echo giving over its entire front page to the story. Now, on the
:23:43. > :23:51.final leg, the pilots went to Salisbury Plain and then Brighton
:23:51. > :23:53.before arriving back at Brooklands, a total of 1,010 miles. Among the
:23:53. > :23:59.starters was Samuel Franklin Cody, a one-time Wild West showman and
:23:59. > :24:09.sharpshooter. He came to England in 1890, became a British citizen and
:24:09. > :24:12.
:24:12. > :24:15.was now one of the country's first buyers. -- flyers. He was a
:24:15. > :24:17.completely experimental aviator. I don't think his approach was even
:24:17. > :24:21.particularly scientific. The biggest problem with Cody is that
:24:21. > :24:25.it is hard to extract the man from the myth. He created this whole
:24:25. > :24:29.show around him, so it is hard to get to the bones of who he really
:24:29. > :24:37.was and how he went about things. Unlike Cody, some competitors
:24:37. > :24:40.didn't even make it past the start line. Their main challenges would
:24:40. > :24:43.have been reliability of the engines and the aircraft themselves.
:24:43. > :24:46.The weather was tough, and the abilities of the pilots. This was
:24:46. > :24:51.very early days, before conventions were established and a safe way of
:24:51. > :25:01.doing things. Of course, the machines themselves were
:25:01. > :25:04.
:25:04. > :25:07.unacceptably low standards by today's standards. It is said that
:25:07. > :25:11.the Circuit of Britain Race was the inspiration behind the film Those
:25:11. > :25:15.Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines. This aircraft, a replica
:25:15. > :25:25.of the Bristol Boxkite, was made for the film and it is similar to
:25:25. > :25:30.
:25:30. > :25:33.the design Cody would have been 100 years ago, pilots had little
:25:33. > :25:38.experience of flight. Today, only the most experienced can take these
:25:38. > :25:41.historical machines into the air. Shuttleworth chief private Dodge
:25:41. > :25:48.Bailey spent a career with the RAF before tackling the Edwardian
:25:48. > :25:52.planes. It must have been an incredibly risky time in aviation,
:25:52. > :25:54.the very early years? Well, it was genuine pioneering because of all
:25:54. > :26:00.these uncertainties about the airplane, the engine and the
:26:00. > :26:05.weather. They didn't know what was going to be beyond that line of
:26:05. > :26:10.trees. They had no way of dealing with bad weather, they just pressed
:26:10. > :26:16.on and survival of the fittest prevailed. Some of them lost their
:26:17. > :26:26.lives just because of the weather. Others were lucky or landed in a
:26:27. > :26:37.
:26:37. > :26:41.That was absolutely fantastic to watch. The way the plane climbs, it
:26:41. > :26:44.just looks so graceful. What's it like to fly it? Well, it's
:26:44. > :26:49.different. The first concern with this particular airplane is its
:26:49. > :26:53.climb rate. It doesn't climb very well, so I'm very conscious of wind
:26:53. > :26:58.and turbulence and trees and so on, in order to get it up to a safe
:26:58. > :27:02.height. And then flying the aircraft is a little different.
:27:02. > :27:10.It's not terribly stable, so I have to be in control all the time - I
:27:10. > :27:15.can't take my hand off the stick, for example. The Circuit of Britain
:27:15. > :27:18.Race ended just a week after it had begun. It was won by Andre Beaumont
:27:18. > :27:23.in his Bleriot, who completed the 1,010-mile course in a total flying
:27:23. > :27:29.time of just under 22.5 hours. Fellow Frenchman Vedrine was just
:27:29. > :27:36.over an hour behind. As for SF Cody, well, he finished fourth, ten days
:27:36. > :27:43.after the winning French machine. But his biplane was the only
:27:43. > :27:46.British-built aircraft to finish the race. A bit like the lunar
:27:46. > :27:55.landings It was a major advancement in science, had all the elements of
:27:55. > :28:05.sportsmanship and courage and challenge to the participants. So,
:28:05. > :28:09.
:28:09. > :28:13.yes, it had everything - it was a I guess, if they hadn't tried, if
:28:13. > :28:16.they had given up, you have to say, "Where would we be?" If they had
:28:16. > :28:26.maybe flown three miles and said, "Oh, no, I'm not doing that!",
:28:26. > :28:30.