:00:07. > :00:15.The Somerset Levels are still underwater after a deluge that
:00:16. > :00:16.started in December. The floods have sparked a domestic and political
:00:17. > :00:41.crisis. Welcome. Good evening, and welcome to the
:00:42. > :00:47.canalside centre. We meet as part of the West country struggles `fter the
:00:48. > :00:51.worst floods in years. The water is now going down, but many of the
:00:52. > :00:56.people here tonight are out of their homes after the Somerset Levels were
:00:57. > :01:01.hit by a series of storms that went on for two months. Not far from
:01:02. > :01:05.here, livelihoods have been lost and property destroyed, and there is a
:01:06. > :01:11.feeling amongst some that a lot of it could have been avoided, which
:01:12. > :01:19.has made people angry. Before we debate, let's hear a few personal
:01:20. > :01:26.stories. James and Becky, you were affected by this. The beginning of
:01:27. > :01:33.the year, we experienced a surge on the floodwater started to rhse into
:01:34. > :01:41.my parent `` my parents house and I had to evacuate my farm. Wh`t about
:01:42. > :01:45.your livestock? All of the livestock had to be removed and taken to other
:01:46. > :01:52.farms. A lot of them have bden sold. I have lost potential earnings
:01:53. > :01:57.for the last `` next three or four months. It makes me angry bdcause it
:01:58. > :02:05.could have been avoided. If they had just listened to the local people.
:02:06. > :02:09.Alastair, you live on an island What has the experience been like
:02:10. > :02:17.for you is to mark it has bden extraordinary. `` like for xou? It
:02:18. > :02:20.is extraordinary. There is ` community on the island with 20
:02:21. > :02:26.children who go to school. Xou cannot just get into your c`r and
:02:27. > :02:30.take the children to school. You have to think about it. You have to
:02:31. > :02:39.dress up in wet weather gear, get your boots and trousers and. `` on.
:02:40. > :02:47.It is really difficult. Food, all of the bits and pieces. It all takes a
:02:48. > :02:50.huge amount of time. Most pdople can cope with hardship for a short
:02:51. > :02:56.period of time, but this has been going on for nine weeks. Yes. We
:02:57. > :03:02.have had it before, once evdry nine or ten years, but nine weeks is a
:03:03. > :03:06.huge amount of time and somdthing obviously went badly wrong. Some
:03:07. > :03:13.initial thoughts of their al a but let's meet our panel. James, a
:03:14. > :03:17.farmer who has become the f`ce of the floods at times. His falily have
:03:18. > :03:26.been working the land here for 50 years. The acting Chief Executive of
:03:27. > :03:34.Somerset County Council. Sud Brown from the RSPCA. They managed 20 0
:03:35. > :03:38.acres on the levels. And Richard Creswell from the Environment
:03:39. > :03:39.Agency, which has come in for a lot of criticism, much of it thdy claim
:03:40. > :03:53.it is unfair. We also have among our audidnce the
:03:54. > :04:00.police, local politicians and many volunteers who have come to the
:04:01. > :04:07.rescue. No`one from DEFRA, `s it is called, was able to come tonight. UN
:04:08. > :04:14.home can get involved and Twitter, using this hash tag. `` you at home.
:04:15. > :04:18.Let's take our first question from counsellor Justine Baker. Why did it
:04:19. > :04:28.take so long as local authorities to get involved? Why do you thhnk? I do
:04:29. > :04:33.not think people realised how bad it was. I think people thought it would
:04:34. > :04:39.go away a lot quicker. I am part of a community group that stepped up to
:04:40. > :04:42.the mark to fill the gap. The County Council is working extremelx well,
:04:43. > :04:55.but it took a lot of time to get to that. Let's bring in the panel. You
:04:56. > :05:00.must have had a well rehearsed plan sitting on the shelf for an event
:05:01. > :05:05.like this. It was a question of blowing the dust off it and getting
:05:06. > :05:12.to work. Is that what happened? I believe we were there from very
:05:13. > :05:15.early on, from before Christmas We looked at our duty, what we head to
:05:16. > :05:20.do, which was to keep peopld safe, and we worked with our soci`l care
:05:21. > :05:25.teams to keep people safe from day one. We clearly needed to move on
:05:26. > :05:33.from there, and there was that need for communities of, how can we help?
:05:34. > :05:39.Knowing into the new year wd were helping in any way we could. ``
:05:40. > :05:46.gull`wing. We provided boats and supportive communities. That was
:05:47. > :05:52.towards the end of January. There was a airy bad weather forecast
:05:53. > :06:02.coming forward and work `` very bad weather forecast coming forward Did
:06:03. > :06:12.you feel isolated or a in the early days of this emergency? We get to
:06:13. > :06:18.start off with. Enough was dnough. 40 square miles of Somerset was
:06:19. > :06:26.flooded in conjunction with other areas. We needed to declare a major
:06:27. > :06:29.incident. What happened then? We wanted the response that we got We
:06:30. > :06:36.wanted others to recognise what was going on in Somerset, and everything
:06:37. > :06:40.that has happened we hoped would happen to bring the eyes of the
:06:41. > :06:52.world on what was happening. We wanted to bring government to bear
:06:53. > :06:56.in terms of recognizing... H was pleased, not pleased to declare a
:06:57. > :07:00.major incident, but we wantdd governments to recognise wh`t was
:07:01. > :07:11.happening in Somerset. What sort of help that you get? Is it addquate?
:07:12. > :07:20.Last year the floods went under the radar. We were flooded for six
:07:21. > :07:25.months and it went under thd radar. Thanks to such more for acttally
:07:26. > :07:28.declaring it a major incident. We head the resources in place to help
:07:29. > :07:36.us. At the start we were left in the dark. No`one was helping and we head
:07:37. > :07:42.to evacuate. We started evacuating on a Wednesday afternoon, Wddnesday
:07:43. > :07:48.morning we asked for assist`nce and none was coming forward. Evdrything
:07:49. > :08:00.took so long we did not havd time. Are you sure you did not have help?
:08:01. > :08:03.Somerset County Council sent some people out, they came out at nine
:08:04. > :08:09.o'clock and said, do not worry, the Army is coming, we are going to put
:08:10. > :08:13.pumps in place and sandbags. By lunchtime, nothing had turndd up. I
:08:14. > :08:22.rang my friend who is a contractor and he started a gang, and H said,
:08:23. > :08:28.do not worry, the Army are coming. By four o'clock we made the decision
:08:29. > :08:36.that we had to evacuate. Who do you hold responsible for not helping you
:08:37. > :08:44.out? There did not seem to be a joint approach from the start. The
:08:45. > :08:55.police are here. You are in charge of... I chair the strategic
:08:56. > :09:03.coordinating group. We coordinate with the blue light responsds, with
:09:04. > :09:15.the local authorities, and ht is to coordinate... Did that seem to work?
:09:16. > :09:22.In what way did it not work? It clearly not work `` it clearly did
:09:23. > :09:29.not work. Local people were coming together and doing their tasks, but
:09:30. > :09:40.it needed to be run from thd bottom up. The lady behind you. I have got
:09:41. > :09:45.to congratulate the police hn what they did for me. I have got 12
:09:46. > :09:51.German Shepherd dogs. I havd seven policemen turned up and let my dogs
:09:52. > :09:59.out, and one of them admittdd he was terrified of German shepherds. I am
:10:00. > :10:05.getting emotional. He built a bridge to get my Shetland pony out. The
:10:06. > :10:13.police were leading marvelots, but nobody else turned up. Nobody. We
:10:14. > :10:17.were cut off on December five. In our village, the police takd took a
:10:18. > :10:24.long time to Ternopil stop there was no security, very little difficulty
:10:25. > :10:28.and all of the warning we h`d was an announcement from a helicopter
:10:29. > :10:33.telling us to be. Very little personal contact, cooperate in and
:10:34. > :10:37.very badly organised. Yelling from a helicopter is not much use. We had
:10:38. > :10:43.worked considerably harder for them and had done a number of warning and
:10:44. > :10:48.informing exercises. We had neighbourhood teams that were out
:10:49. > :10:51.constantly, knocking on doors, dropping letters, using sochal
:10:52. > :10:57.media. Did anyone know who was in charge? Was it David Cameron, you,
:10:58. > :11:03.the Council, the Environment Agency? Who was it? Because the major
:11:04. > :11:07.incident was then declare, that is when the process sets up. As a
:11:08. > :11:12.consequence, it takes a small amount of time to get the right pl`yers
:11:13. > :11:16.around the table. How many times did you visit from the council `nd see
:11:17. > :11:22.what was on? We had people visiting on a very regular basis. Did you pop
:11:23. > :11:26.down? Islet in the area so H have been more or less constantlx in the
:11:27. > :11:33.levels since the beginning. `` eyelids in the area. The cotncil was
:11:34. > :11:39.involved in troubles, did you take your eye off the ball? Never. No, we
:11:40. > :11:42.did not. My leadership has been there since the beginning so there
:11:43. > :11:48.has been no ambiguity. That other issue did not feature. Rich`rd from
:11:49. > :11:51.the moment agency, have you been satisfied with the way that your
:11:52. > :11:58.people have responded Mr Mike `` the moment agency? We had three months
:11:59. > :12:03.which has amounted to the wdttest winter for 250 years. Through that
:12:04. > :12:07.three months, I think there were probably only two or three days
:12:08. > :12:10.where it did not claim, which gives major problems for the Somerset
:12:11. > :12:15.Levels. It has resulted in the massive flooded we have seen. ``
:12:16. > :12:18.where it did not rain. I must say how sorry and sympathetic Hxam for
:12:19. > :12:23.everybody and I have seen some of it first`hand. I think right from the
:12:24. > :12:31.start, we set up our incident rooms and our job is to do the warning and
:12:32. > :12:35.informing and get everybody geared up to what is happening. But of
:12:36. > :12:41.course, what happened was it rained and then get training. I thhnk some
:12:42. > :12:44.of the stories is because it has kept raining for three months
:12:45. > :12:52.without stop. `` then it kept raining. Could you have brotght the
:12:53. > :12:57.pumps in earlier? One of thd problems with pumps is that we have
:12:58. > :13:02.one main river out of the p`tch All the water that is pumped nedds to go
:13:03. > :13:05.out through that route. We cannot turn on the pumps until there is
:13:06. > :13:15.capacity in the river. Right late on in the incident, we have bedn
:13:16. > :13:17.working to get the flood relief channel working so that we can take
:13:18. > :13:24.water from the top. That cale in much later, when the incident got to
:13:25. > :13:29.the sort of portions of it has no. James, is it realistic the sort of
:13:30. > :13:33.help that you were expecting? The police are here to catch crhminals
:13:34. > :13:37.and do crimper vigilant. Thdy are not used to moving cattle. H just
:13:38. > :13:43.want to respond to Richard. `` they do crime prevention. It started
:13:44. > :13:47.flooding after an inch and ` half of water. It is not acceptable. This
:13:48. > :13:56.was in December, before all the other room. That was fool for the
:13:57. > :14:03.extra rain. We were calling for a week before Christmas, eight days
:14:04. > :14:05.before Christmas, for Northloor pumping station to put the
:14:06. > :14:09.excellently pumps on and I was told they were not needed. I havd lived
:14:10. > :14:12.there all my life and my father before and there did not sedm to be
:14:13. > :14:16.anybody listening to the locals We know, you know, just by going out on
:14:17. > :14:22.the moors and farming the l`nd just how high the water was getthng. It
:14:23. > :14:27.went way above winter level. Let's speak to somebody who came here as a
:14:28. > :14:34.volunteer. Welcome. What struck you? What struck me? As a member of the
:14:35. > :14:39.international relief team, H work around the world in major
:14:40. > :14:44.disasters. To be honest, if you ask me as an observer what went on here,
:14:45. > :14:50.in our own country, compared to third World countries, it w`s an
:14:51. > :14:57.absolute failure. Because I was here for a week and really, lots of these
:14:58. > :15:01.volunteers were getting stuck in and there was no, absolutely no presence
:15:02. > :15:09.from any official agencies. Let s get this clear... We were lhfting
:15:10. > :15:13.everything ourselves. I did not see any presence. In other parts of the
:15:14. > :15:16.world, it is completely different. They are not so rich. In thhs
:15:17. > :15:24.country, we have everything and yet we have nothing. We are worse at
:15:25. > :15:28.responding to an emergency hnvolving 100 flooded houses than thex are in
:15:29. > :15:35.some developing countries. Obviously the community coming togethdr as
:15:36. > :15:39.they have done is just a relarkable response. But who should be lifting
:15:40. > :15:46.the sandbags? Is that actually down to ours, the public, or shotld we
:15:47. > :15:50.look to the authorities? It is a mixed picture and that is exactly
:15:51. > :15:54.why I asked and the marines came in when needed because the sittation
:15:55. > :15:58.was getting worse. More comlunities were being overwhelmed. We knew that
:15:59. > :16:00.we needed more people on thd ground and that is why we effectivdly
:16:01. > :16:05.changed national policy to get the marines in so that they could help
:16:06. > :16:10.with whatever we needed to be done. You came here, did you not, for a
:16:11. > :16:15.day to help? I have used it? On the 8th of February, I think thd worst
:16:16. > :16:19.flooding at the time. I camd for one day and stayed a week. Therd was
:16:20. > :16:25.much to do. The marines... H only saw the marines towards the last few
:16:26. > :16:28.days of my stay for a week here What all of the sandbagging was
:16:29. > :16:34.being done by the locals, bx the volunteers. `` while all of the
:16:35. > :16:38.sandbagging was being done, I think if there had been better qu`rter
:16:39. > :16:46.nation, we would have turned up earlier, on the seventh, whhch is a
:16:47. > :16:50.Friday, I heard somebody from Somerset really upset, wherd are the
:16:51. > :16:53.international agencies? We responded. I rang every single
:16:54. > :17:02.agency, every single agency, "we can help, what do you need? How is good
:17:03. > :17:10.they all turned away. `` wh`t do you need? " We are very glad yot are
:17:11. > :17:13.here. You have a question also. How will the Government and its
:17:14. > :17:16.associated agencies build trust with the local communities build trust
:17:17. > :17:22.with Somerset after such a monumental failure? You are sticking
:17:23. > :17:27.to your view that it was a failure? Is that a general consensus?
:17:28. > :17:33.CHEERING From the Environment Agency? How are
:17:34. > :17:38.you going to rebuild trust? Colon I think one of the things, as people
:17:39. > :17:44.have said, sitting down and talking. We did a lot of that after 2012 and
:17:45. > :17:50.indeed... It did not change much. I disagree. In 2012, we sat down with
:17:51. > :17:53.the internal drainage boards and local people and said that we need
:17:54. > :17:58.to do something to try to alleviate the problem. We looked at three
:17:59. > :18:02.major initiatives that would have helped and one of them was hndeed
:18:03. > :18:09.the eight kilometre dredge that many people will know about. We
:18:10. > :18:12.immediately, over 12 months ago rebuilding trust. Your imagd has
:18:13. > :18:16.been tarnished perhaps down here. What are you going to do? Wd will
:18:17. > :18:19.talk to people but at the moment, the priority is to get the water off
:18:20. > :18:23.the land, get the people back into their houses. You know, with the
:18:24. > :18:27.best will in the world, it hs not the right time to be trying to
:18:28. > :18:31.engage with the locals on what is going to be the future becatse the
:18:32. > :18:35.future for people, I hope, will be getting people back first and then
:18:36. > :18:42.talking. We can do the rest in parallel. Let's talk to Tessa, one
:18:43. > :18:46.of the local MPs. How badly his trust and the relationship with the
:18:47. > :18:49.authorities been affected? H think it is pretty serious, actually. I
:18:50. > :18:52.would say that rather than sitting down and talking it should be
:18:53. > :18:55.sitting down and listening. Actually, local people have a very
:18:56. > :18:58.clear idea of how some of this may be sorted out. I do not blale your
:18:59. > :19:02.Environment Agency staff because they have worked very hard where
:19:03. > :19:06.they have been placed in a very impossible situation by an
:19:07. > :19:12.emergency. But this was a crisis. We saw this happening last year. Not
:19:13. > :19:16.very much happened. The loc`l farmers and landowners have been
:19:17. > :19:21.saying dredge, dredge, dredge. I recovered one area, not the river.
:19:22. > :19:24.What we need to do, perhaps, is something I have been asking for 18
:19:25. > :19:27.months and that is saying that the Environment Agency is there to look
:19:28. > :19:32.after wildlife and flora and fauna, but actually my view is let's do not
:19:33. > :19:35.just buttercups. We need to actually make sure that we may be agdncy
:19:36. > :19:41.reflect the value of productive land. It's got to be like that. We
:19:42. > :19:49.are going to be talking abott dredging a lot but what's t`lk about
:19:50. > :19:56.the response. This Mac let's talk about `` but let's talk abott the
:19:57. > :20:00.response. Being a volunteer and helping first`hand, no disrdspect
:20:01. > :20:03.but will lead to gold and shlver command, I am sure many will agree,
:20:04. > :20:12.it was way slow. People needed help and they did it now. It was too
:20:13. > :20:16.slow. One last response to `ll that? I think with the quarter nation
:20:17. > :20:21.response, and I do accept some of the comments to see that thdy did
:20:22. > :20:29.not see it `` coordination response, there were very many good pdople
:20:30. > :20:32.working 24/7. Anyway, we were a victim are on success in th`t the
:20:33. > :20:34.flag and the community resilience and the can`do attitude acttally
:20:35. > :20:38.created an additional demand and for others to come in... So if xou had
:20:39. > :20:44.fallen to pieces, more help would have arrived? From our point of
:20:45. > :20:48.view, with some of the needs, the concentration of effort wherever was
:20:49. > :20:52.demanded at the time, with other coordinated groups, needed to
:20:53. > :21:00.respond in a coordinated wax. Everybody had such a device set of
:21:01. > :21:04.needs. Let's pause for a molent I see will come back to the atdience
:21:05. > :21:05.but let's go back onto the levels to remind ourselves of how this drama
:21:06. > :21:19.unfolded. There is nothing I can do... This is
:21:20. > :21:25.my life. What really did catse the worst floods in living memory? In
:21:26. > :21:44.spite of the frantic efforts to pump it out, the water is still there.
:21:45. > :21:55.Families in temporary homes. I've got my crate! Who knows for how
:21:56. > :21:59.long. In this village on thd Somerset Levels, people are still
:22:00. > :22:04.having to reach their homes by boat. Now, if you want the clearest
:22:05. > :22:08.possible indication of just how much the extent of this flooding to
:22:09. > :22:13.people by surprise, the County Council actually hired this boat for
:22:14. > :22:17.two weeks. They thought, as did most people, that the floodwaters would
:22:18. > :22:25.have gone by then. But as I speak, it is now nine weeks since the
:22:26. > :22:29.village was marooned. When xou visit, you realise that with every
:22:30. > :22:36.waterlogged day that passes, the anger gets deeper.
:22:37. > :22:44.What do you think next year? Do you think we will be sure standhng on
:22:45. > :22:48.the edge of a flooded village again next year? I think there will be a
:22:49. > :22:52.riot if we are doing that. There is jolly near a riot right now. We are
:22:53. > :22:57.very close to the edge. We have had enough. When the clock back and
:22:58. > :23:08.there was a taste of what w`s to come. James took me on a totr of his
:23:09. > :23:16.farm near Rowland. 560 acres. We have got 790 underwater. `` 960
:23:17. > :23:20.acres. Back then there was `nger that there had been a lack of river
:23:21. > :23:25.maintenance, dredging, caushng the floods. The chairman of the
:23:26. > :23:30.Environment Agency, Lord Smhth, felt the full force of anger when he
:23:31. > :23:36.visited the Somerset Levels towards the end of 2012. And when I pressed
:23:37. > :23:43.him on that word, dredging, this is what he said. What we need to do is
:23:44. > :23:47.find out here where the best places to dredge are going to be and then
:23:48. > :23:53.we will get on and do it and that will be as soon as possible. When? I
:23:54. > :23:57.would certainly be very dis`ppointed if we were not seen some improvement
:23:58. > :24:01.happening in the course of the next six months. And yet 12 months on,
:24:02. > :24:14.that pledge failed to materhalise. Our main story tonight, the West
:24:15. > :24:19.under water. Part of Somersdt remain cut off and the bad weather is not
:24:20. > :24:26.over yet. Every road into mtch only a flooded... I was hiring a boat
:24:27. > :24:31.again to reach the stranded village. Farmer James was fast beginning to
:24:32. > :24:37.realise that the floods of 2012 were nothing compared to what he was
:24:38. > :24:44.facing now. In the end, he had to evacuate his farm to save hhs
:24:45. > :24:48.animals from drowning. And one night in February, what had
:24:49. > :24:54.already become a major incident came an emergency, as the villagd was
:24:55. > :25:00.evacuated, homes that had ndver flooded before, overwhelmed and just
:25:01. > :25:06.a few hours. I now, the worst floods in living memory were attracting
:25:07. > :25:14.national attention and VIP visitors, from royalty to
:25:15. > :25:21.politicians. Some were more welcome than others. In the end, thd Prime
:25:22. > :25:24.Minister himself stepped in to promise what the people of Somerset
:25:25. > :25:31.have been demanding for years. More dredging needs to be done and it
:25:32. > :25:36.will be done. As I said on Friday, we need to learn lessons from the
:25:37. > :25:43.past him and that means mord dredging will take place. `` from
:25:44. > :25:51.the past, and that means. Pdople want solutions, not answers. This
:25:52. > :25:56.man, now retired was once the flood defence manager with the Environment
:25:57. > :26:02.Agency in Somerset. My concern is that what we `re doing
:26:03. > :26:08.here, in doing the dredging but `` because the Prime Minister says so,
:26:09. > :26:12.is giving people hope. Thesd people have been devastated and thdy need
:26:13. > :26:19.to plan their future and it would be fair to tell them the truth, not
:26:20. > :26:24.that dredging will solve evdrything. So, politicians of the highdst level
:26:25. > :26:30.have reacted to the ongoing flooding crisis here in Somerset, but the
:26:31. > :26:34.question is, how they reactdd to genuinely fix the problem, or are
:26:35. > :26:38.they merely telling the flood victims of Somerset what thdy want
:26:39. > :26:44.to hear? Oh they make good on their pledges? And even if they do, will
:26:45. > :26:50.that prevent flooding like this from happening again. `` will thdy make
:26:51. > :26:57.good. Let's talk about that word, dredging.
:26:58. > :27:03.We have already talked about it Our next question comes from a lan who
:27:04. > :27:13.runs a business. Hello. Why did the Environment Agency not dredge the
:27:14. > :27:17.rivers when the cost of it pales in significance in comparison to the
:27:18. > :27:20.cost of cleaning it up? We were constantly told there was no budget
:27:21. > :27:26.and the cost of the clean`up was absolutely enormous by comp`rison.
:27:27. > :27:30.We have completely lost our business. We have had to move our
:27:31. > :27:35.business to another factory that we have had to rent. We owned the
:27:36. > :27:44.property on the Somerset Levels and we have had to set up again. Why
:27:45. > :27:47.have you not stretched? Over the past 25 years, successive
:27:48. > :27:53.governments have moved investment towards using the money to protect
:27:54. > :27:57.as many people and propertids as possible. That inevitably h`s meant
:27:58. > :28:04.that sparsely populated are`s have not benefited of `` as much. 1.
:28:05. > :28:14.million houses have been protected over this three month. . Huge
:28:15. > :28:20.sympathy for the 120 or 150 that have been flooded, but it does not
:28:21. > :28:24.stack up against benefit cases for other parts of the country. So if
:28:25. > :28:37.you spend ?1 and flood prevdntion you have to sound `` save ?8 in
:28:38. > :28:42.damages? We wanted to do thd dredge after 2012, and that was worked out
:28:43. > :28:52.with the IDB, but the amount of money that the... ?160,000 was put
:28:53. > :28:59.forward for that. The Countx Council put in ?300,000. We then nedded to
:29:00. > :29:03.raise the rest of the money. Is it that you wanted to dredge btt you
:29:04. > :29:10.could not afford it, or you did not really want to dredge? After 20 2,
:29:11. > :29:15.we employed consultants to look at what the right options were, and
:29:16. > :29:25.trudging with most definitely have delayed the onset of flooding in
:29:26. > :29:32.2013`14. It would have meant the flooding was not as extensive. So it
:29:33. > :29:38.was a mistake not to do it? It is a shame, and that is a real
:29:39. > :29:42.understatement, that we did not get flooding `` funding through 201 so
:29:43. > :29:46.we could get on with that. So you wanted to dredge but you cotld not
:29:47. > :29:52.afford it? If that is the w`y you want to put it. Is that the way you
:29:53. > :29:59.want to put it? Well, in terms of competing demands in the cotntry, we
:30:00. > :30:04.have to follow that formula. Chris Parker is here. Where are you? Just
:30:05. > :30:13.give us the academic view of the dredging. Dredging can work in some
:30:14. > :30:18.places at certain times. Thd way it works is you increase the
:30:19. > :30:25.cross`sectional area, and there you `` thereby you increase the volume
:30:26. > :30:32.of water that can fit through the channel. It has been less stccessful
:30:33. > :30:39.on the levels for three different reasons. The first reason is the
:30:40. > :30:47.slope of the levels. Even though you are increasing the cross`sectional
:30:48. > :30:51.area, the amount of water that can lead is reduced. Let's just cut to
:30:52. > :30:59.the Chase. Does that mean that they should not be dredged? It mdans that
:31:00. > :31:04.money spent on dredging and Somerset Levels could be better spent
:31:05. > :31:10.elsewhere. `` and the Somerset Levels. You are saying it is not
:31:11. > :31:19.worth the money. That is not so If you look at the results dond in the
:31:20. > :31:24.1960s, you will find that the river is now running at less than 60% of
:31:25. > :31:33.its capacity at that time. The riverbed has come up I nearly three
:31:34. > :31:38.metres. `` by nearly three letres. I was in a meeting with Lord Smith a
:31:39. > :31:43.few weeks ago when he came to visit, and he guaranteed us that
:31:44. > :31:50.they were going to dredge two different rivers. Why did hd say
:31:51. > :32:04.that if I was no point in doing it? Let's bring in Sue Armstrong Brown
:32:05. > :32:10.from the RSPCA `` RS DB. Yot are not a fan of dredging, are you? It can
:32:11. > :32:17.be used to speed up water going down the river. It would not havd stopped
:32:18. > :32:21.these floods. It would have helped the water get out quicker if it had
:32:22. > :32:28.been done. We use it sometiles as a conservation tool am a but broadly,
:32:29. > :32:35.it is an incredible `` tool, but broadly, it is hard to get right.
:32:36. > :32:40.This crisis has left so manx people in awful situations am a but there
:32:41. > :32:45.has been an oversimplificathon of the solutions. `` awful sittations,
:32:46. > :32:52.but there has been an oversimplification of the solutions.
:32:53. > :32:55.Apparently the government rtns the flood defence agency, which is
:32:56. > :33:01.marvelous, but is not reallx true. We do not have that amount of power.
:33:02. > :33:09.We do campaign against dredging too much. Rivers are a place whdre water
:33:10. > :33:14.flows from land to sea, and that is the critical function we ard talking
:33:15. > :33:18.about at the moment. But also, there are habitats for wildlife, things
:33:19. > :33:25.that most of the people herd in the audience loves.
:33:26. > :33:31.The gentleman with the fluorescent jacket. You say about the money not
:33:32. > :33:35.being well spent, but how mtch is it with the costing the governlent and
:33:36. > :33:40.the taxpayer to higher in the palms and engineers to run them, the
:33:41. > :33:44.authorities, all the people working on this, and how much is thd clear
:33:45. > :33:49.up going to cost? What about the wider point about the environment,
:33:50. > :33:56.and that we share the environment with these creatures?
:33:57. > :34:03.These are man`made channels in Somerset. I would agree with the
:34:04. > :34:07.lady from the RSPB. There are not `` there are places where you would not
:34:08. > :34:14.want to dredge because it could increase the flow into it the dam
:34:15. > :34:20.stream regions. The function of them is drainage and not environlent We
:34:21. > :34:24.need to get the balance right between the environment and the
:34:25. > :34:30.dredging, but they are therd to perform a function of drain`ge and
:34:31. > :34:36.to pass the water to the lowland. Do people accept that just to say
:34:37. > :34:41.dredge is just an oversimplification? It is the
:34:42. > :34:49.obvious thing to do. We worked out the cost of dredging over a 20 year
:34:50. > :34:54.period, and it is far cheapdr than the cost of pumping over th`t same
:34:55. > :34:59.period. This was over three of the Moore's. We did not know at that
:35:00. > :35:05.time that the flood of this winter were going to be nearly as high in
:35:06. > :35:09.fact the cost of all this ptmping his ruinous compared to the cost of
:35:10. > :35:16.dredging. I want to bring in James one more time. Your family have been
:35:17. > :35:26.on these lands for 150 years. You think there should be more dredging.
:35:27. > :35:31.It will run down and run all over the house and caused more d`mage. If
:35:32. > :35:37.you clear the cutter, the w`ter will go into the drains. If you have a
:35:38. > :35:44.channel that is silted up, ht is 50% more water going down the channel.
:35:45. > :35:53.What is your land like? How high is the water now? ) is `` right now it
:35:54. > :35:58.is about 12 foot deep. It h`s gone down for foot in the last shx days.
:35:59. > :36:03.What would it have been likd had they dredged? It would not have been
:36:04. > :36:08.flooded. We have had a huge amount of rain but it would not have
:36:09. > :36:17.thought about it might have come `` it would not have come into the
:36:18. > :36:21.house. Following on from thd house the `` comment about man`made, the
:36:22. > :36:26.Somerset Levels is a man`made environment, and therefore requires
:36:27. > :36:30.men of management, and my qtestion is, should the conference ``
:36:31. > :36:38.conservationists not seek ott natural help with tats elsewhere in
:36:39. > :36:42.the country? `` habitats. That is absolutely right. This is a unique
:36:43. > :36:47.place that has evolved over centuries of men, and would need
:36:48. > :36:58.think about it, they have evolved along with it. One of the local MPs
:36:59. > :37:03.claimed that ?31 million had been spent to bring a bird sancttary but
:37:04. > :37:10.they couldn't find any monex to dredge. I would like to shoot a few
:37:11. > :37:18.sacred cows if I could. It was ?20 million, not ?31 million.
:37:19. > :37:23.Let me finish, please. Second, that was something to protect hotses in
:37:24. > :37:29.the village from the coastal surges that we had seen. That is p`rt of
:37:30. > :37:34.the solution for the future. You cannot pour enough can't trdat to
:37:35. > :37:40.protect all of our houses from the storm surges. `` enough concrete.
:37:41. > :37:48.The statistics show that we are very likely to see that our flood risk
:37:49. > :37:52.nationally is going to go up. ? 0 million extra is going to h`ve to be
:37:53. > :37:57.spent year on year I'll stop what really matters is thinking of the
:37:58. > :38:05.proactive management solutions were the future. `` spent year on year.
:38:06. > :38:13.Do not forget, you can get hnvolved and footer. Richard from thd
:38:14. > :38:18.Environment Agency. `` on Twitter. Were you being bullied not to
:38:19. > :38:25.dredge? Absolutely not. Our main interest is to protect
:38:26. > :38:30.people. Are you as one agency.. You are you looking after? Birds or
:38:31. > :38:38.people? We are looking after people and property.
:38:39. > :38:44.In the pecking order. Peopld come first and property, second. Then
:38:45. > :38:49.there has to be a balance, because we do not want to live in a concrete
:38:50. > :38:53.jungle. This is about getting a balance. People in Somerset live in
:38:54. > :38:56.a very special place and it is the people there that make it a special
:38:57. > :39:00.place because of the way thdy farm, and a lot of the money that comes in
:39:01. > :39:05.through those subsidies to lake sure that there are little bits of
:39:06. > :39:12.fields, that is money that comes into the economy and is part of the
:39:13. > :39:14.farming economy and the levdls. If we cannot farm, the birds would not
:39:15. > :39:20.be there. At the moment, the situation is one
:39:21. > :39:25.where we cannot farm. I do not care how much money you pump in, unless
:39:26. > :39:31.the ground is farmed, the bhrds will not be there. That is true, so the
:39:32. > :39:35.nature that lives in Somersdt Levels depends on management. If you took
:39:36. > :39:38.the farmers out to the song, you would not have the wildlife that
:39:39. > :39:44.makes this such a unique and special place. `` outs to the swamp. We need
:39:45. > :39:50.to manage the levels to a place where they... The people who work
:39:51. > :39:55.the land and that this area extremely well, and the academics
:39:56. > :39:58.and the people in Whitehall who know the subject from a different point
:39:59. > :40:05.of view, who is right? Who should be believe as taxpayers
:40:06. > :40:13.will protect the environment? We should believe the farmers. A couple
:40:14. > :40:17.more comments. There is a fundamental question which has not
:40:18. > :40:20.been answered. We back in the 1 00 and 1700 is the Dutch enginders
:40:21. > :40:27.designed a system for water management. The question th`t has to
:40:28. > :40:31.be asked is whether it is fht for Palm has today given climathc
:40:32. > :40:36.changes and whatever the thdn minister says he cannot change the
:40:37. > :40:42.jets scream. `` isn't fit for purpose. If it is, it `` is it an
:40:43. > :40:48.eight kilometre dredge or is there something else? That is somdthing we
:40:49. > :40:52.are going to come onto it. Some people are still out of thehr homes
:40:53. > :41:05.and who knows for how long. Like many families, Dee and her daughter
:41:06. > :41:06.had to leave their house and will be in rented accommodation for many
:41:07. > :41:24.months. The helicopter came right over our
:41:25. > :41:30.house. They started shouting to evacuate. So we all worked together
:41:31. > :41:37.in my family, got all worked together in my family, got `ll of
:41:38. > :41:44.the stuff in the attic. We lived in what we stayed in so I was stood in
:41:45. > :41:52.pyjamas. That is always it. `` all iLife in. It had a very tangible
:41:53. > :41:57.feel of utter panic. Nobody knew what to say. Nobody knew how to
:41:58. > :42:04.advise. Everybody had a different opinion about it. As a result, the
:42:05. > :42:17.villagers were left, scarpered, lost and frightened. `` left scarpered. I
:42:18. > :42:23.felt like I was in, like, Thtanic. But without a boat! And I w`s
:42:24. > :42:30.just... The whole village w`s going down in water. I did actually go
:42:31. > :42:34.into school with my welly boots on because I did not have my school
:42:35. > :42:41.shoes. We did a 30 hour danceable and in my wellies. It was vdry
:42:42. > :42:48.painful. `` I did a 30 hour dance contest. We endeavour to make sure
:42:49. > :42:52.that she is kept stable bec`use she has to function as a nine`ydar`old.
:42:53. > :42:57.We do not want her to feel like a thick but I want all my children to
:42:58. > :43:02.eventually come back in ten years' time and say, " do you remelber when
:43:03. > :43:09.we were flooded?!" And see ht as the positive. `` feel like a victim I
:43:10. > :43:16.want to go back to my house because it feels like this is a holhday home
:43:17. > :43:21.and I am staying here for, like five or two days. But it is not It
:43:22. > :43:35.is actually a year and sometimes I really want to go back to mx house.
:43:36. > :43:43.If I was offered the money to buy my house outright to go, as much as I
:43:44. > :43:47.love my village and my neighbours, I probably would. As much as H would
:43:48. > :43:52.hate to leave everybody behhnd those I cannot do this again. I c`nnot! I
:43:53. > :43:56.cannot do this again. I cannot see my kids go through it. I cannot see
:43:57. > :44:07.myself and my partner go through it. No. That would be it.
:44:08. > :44:14.And Dee is here now. What a remarkable daughter you havd got!
:44:15. > :44:18.Chatty to say the least. How are things now? Still hard. Not as hard
:44:19. > :44:24.as the people that rely on the labels for a living but yes, it is
:44:25. > :44:28.hard. `` relying on the land for a living. It is hard to keep lorale
:44:29. > :44:35.and when you think that you have got 12 months minimum to keep going
:44:36. > :44:42.yes. Can you see the end in sight? No. We have been told 12 months but
:44:43. > :44:48.living with five children, day to day, it is hard. So for somdbody to
:44:49. > :44:53.say that they are sorry and we are going to take your house and
:44:54. > :44:56.everything you considered normal and sort yourself out for 12 months and
:44:57. > :45:01.then we will think about giving it back, I cannot see the light at the
:45:02. > :45:07.end of the tunnel. Do you own your house or rented question we are
:45:08. > :45:12.mortgage. How much is your house worth no question zero, as luch as
:45:13. > :45:18.everybody else in this room. We have lost everything. The water hs well
:45:19. > :45:23.received. The council will bring the mobs and buckets and will do the
:45:24. > :45:27.best that they can to mop up the job that sadly was left to lead in the
:45:28. > :45:34.first place. `` the mops and buckets. It will be ours sat here
:45:35. > :45:41.working out the cost. My qudstion is that raising five small children, if
:45:42. > :45:45.I was, as I said on the BT, if I was to have to go through this `gain
:45:46. > :45:50.next year, we would fail. As a family, we would fill. My qtestion
:45:51. > :45:55.is, if you cannot guarantee that this water will not come ag`in and
:45:56. > :45:59.they are not going to flood an entire village... This is not the
:46:00. > :46:03.Thames where it was an overspill, you flooded an entire community If
:46:04. > :46:08.you cannot guarantee that, who is going to buy my house? Wherd is my
:46:09. > :46:14.children's inheritance? At the minute, it is gone. Tessa, hf the
:46:15. > :46:18.people here cannot be guaranteed a drive home, should the Government
:46:19. > :46:25.step in and say that they whll buy the house? No. I think therd is an
:46:26. > :46:29.alternative to stop I think there are plans... I gather there is a
:46:30. > :46:32.plan being put together at the moment that was meant to be
:46:33. > :46:37.completed this week. `` I think there is an alternative. Thdre are
:46:38. > :46:42.things that could have been done to alleviate the problem. Frankly, you
:46:43. > :46:50.know, in my area, the land hs all man managed. It was man cre`ted She
:46:51. > :47:00.wants to know if anybody will Biros. We need to... `` if anybody will
:47:01. > :47:05.buy. The lady said herself house is nothing. How many people ard in the
:47:06. > :47:11.position that their houses worth nothing? Six people. James behind
:47:12. > :47:16.me. There are little pots of money that I am trying to work out whether
:47:17. > :47:19.they are one, two or three or they are being sent to multiple counties.
:47:20. > :47:22.There are various things put together to make it better for
:47:23. > :47:26.people but actually we need to take action. We talked about it last year
:47:27. > :47:29.and here we are. There is no guarantee it is not going to happen
:47:30. > :47:33.at some point. We have had ht happened three times in six years.
:47:34. > :47:37.We have to make sure that somebody is control, the plan is ready and we
:47:38. > :47:40.do something. Will those people who do have properties at our flooded
:47:41. > :47:43.will be put their hands up `nd keep them up if you would know, hf the
:47:44. > :47:49.Government said they would give you a check to buy your house at market
:47:50. > :47:53.value and you can leave, how many people would leave? Keep yotr hands
:47:54. > :47:58.up if you would. One, two, three, four, five. We have five people who
:47:59. > :48:03.would call it a day. What would it mean for you to leave your home It
:48:04. > :48:07.is something we have lived hn this house for 28 years. This is our
:48:08. > :48:12.heritage. We have got so much involvement and it would me`n
:48:13. > :48:17.leaving our friends and famhly. You would do it? If there was going to
:48:18. > :48:20.be going through this, we would do it if there was no guaranted and it
:48:21. > :48:26.would be year, year out it happened last year, what I am appalldd by,
:48:27. > :48:32.there have been successive government reports produced in 002,
:48:33. > :48:34.the flooding summit last ye`r and national politicians and local
:48:35. > :48:41.politicians did not listen `nd see where the resources where to sort
:48:42. > :48:45.out the problem. Richard, is it sensible to try to save A`ldvels,
:48:46. > :48:51.given that we are told the climate is changing, levels are rishng? ``
:48:52. > :48:54.to save the land. A lot of properties are at or near sda level.
:48:55. > :49:00.Should people say they will go and live summer elves and we should hand
:49:01. > :49:06.is over to nature? I think this is a mixed economy. `` somewhere else. I
:49:07. > :49:08.think everybody knows that some dredging of the type we are talking
:49:09. > :49:12.about will help it. We're also talking about a number of other
:49:13. > :49:21.things, like relief channel. In the long term, should the `` should the
:49:22. > :49:26.Levels be abandoned? If you abandon them, you will lose two or three
:49:27. > :49:35.things. You will lose a lot of communities, the wildlife that is
:49:36. > :49:38.there, that is there to `` why it is designated as a special place. This
:49:39. > :49:41.is something that the community and agencies can work together on. I
:49:42. > :49:46.think it would be wrong to say that we can prevent flooding bec`use I do
:49:47. > :49:54.not think we can. I think it could need substantially reduced. Full
:49:55. > :49:58.like it or lump it? We are one of the last hours before Bridgwater and
:49:59. > :50:02.really, if we had had two more inches of rain, another eight inches
:50:03. > :50:08.or more, Bridgwater, and we have seen by all the work of makhng the
:50:09. > :50:10.Dutch pumps in and emergenches, they are next. There is no other alleged
:50:11. > :50:18.to fill up. CHEERING
:50:19. > :50:21.You cannot use the moors as a storage pen to have them flooded all
:50:22. > :50:31.the time. Is that what you are doing? Of
:50:32. > :50:35.course they are. Certainly the moors her historical and these lands which
:50:36. > :50:39.have been flooded in the wax that they are for hundreds of ye`rs. Not
:50:40. > :50:45.at this level. But we have to remember that we have just had the
:50:46. > :50:50.wettest winter for 250 years. One of the things we will have to consider
:50:51. > :50:55.is what do we do? Do we protect up to a 250 euros event or do we say
:50:56. > :51:00.100 year event? We have got to work out what is economic. `` 250 year
:51:01. > :51:05.event. There was some properties that flood every year. Have you
:51:06. > :51:12.deliberately allowed areas to flood to protect Bridgwater? The spillway
:51:13. > :51:19.is... The spillways are where they have been and we do not open these
:51:20. > :51:24.then the water goes over thdm. The reason there are spillways hs
:51:25. > :51:29.because we try to control when it goes. If we did not have a spillway,
:51:30. > :51:34.it would go over it. It is not an unreasonable thing to do thhs to
:51:35. > :51:37.protect Bridgwater. It is there to protect the whole of the levels and
:51:38. > :51:42.murders. If you let it come out everywhere, it would randomly flood
:51:43. > :51:48.all sorts of different parts of the levels and murders. `` moors. Sugar
:51:49. > :51:52.levels be abandoned? They should not be abandoned but we do need to be
:51:53. > :51:57.much more creative about wh`t the future is going to be. Clim`te
:51:58. > :52:02.change... All of the predictions of thing that we are going to see more
:52:03. > :52:08.of this sort of event. This year, it was a crisis and unique. An amazing
:52:09. > :52:11.response from the community and the huge volunteer effort. Would that be
:52:12. > :52:18.there if it happened every xear I do not think so. I think we need to
:52:19. > :52:20.have a plan and that is to not only include making sure the
:52:21. > :52:24.infrastructure is suitable `nd can move the water around appropriately
:52:25. > :52:28.and get it but it also needs to look at the wider area. This is `
:52:29. > :52:33.national problem. 50% of thd foil, about half of the soil and the
:52:34. > :52:37.catchment, are managed so that their companion compacted. A response
:52:38. > :52:44.would be nice for somebody who has not spoken before. I am the animal
:52:45. > :52:46.quart meter for Flag. We have got most of the animals moved, re`homed,
:52:47. > :52:51.flight and lots of donations coming in. 20 years ago, my partner was
:52:52. > :52:56.employed to dredge the banks. The silt was put on top of the banks,
:52:57. > :53:01.the banks where rotating, replanted, problem solved. Hn the
:53:02. > :53:07.last four days, I have had hn three dead barn owls. I run my own rescue
:53:08. > :53:11.centre. Now, everybody wants to protect the British wildlifd. These
:53:12. > :53:14.barn owls are dying because the farmland is under water, thdre is no
:53:15. > :53:18.crops, there is no mice, thdre is no food.
:53:19. > :53:26.Are you under the impression, do you believe, that the labels can be
:53:27. > :53:29.saved? Exactly as Jane said. If you're guttering is blocked, you
:53:30. > :53:34.unblock it. The water will run. Years ago, the rivers were dredged,
:53:35. > :53:40.it was put on the banks which made the banks higher. It wasn't so much
:53:41. > :53:52.housing with all of the watdr coming from other areas, Taunton, Xeovil, .
:53:53. > :53:56.. Lots of houses planned and where is the water going to go? Pdople
:53:57. > :54:01.have to live summer. Control the water so it does not flow any more
:54:02. > :54:05.than when it was Greenfield. What other options are there? Thd 20 year
:54:06. > :54:09.plan for is due out later this week and well we do not know what will be
:54:10. > :54:13.in it, lots of suggestions `re being made, including raising the roads,
:54:14. > :54:19.becoming more resilient and even a barrage on the River. What hs the
:54:20. > :54:24.best way to progress from hdre? What should we do? Is there anything that
:54:25. > :54:30.can stop these people going through what they have had to go through? As
:54:31. > :54:35.I have said before, it can be substantially reduced. But not
:54:36. > :54:38.eliminated? See Iraq not lilited. It will not be limited, does everybody
:54:39. > :54:45.get that and accepted? `` it will not be eliminated. We expect it to
:54:46. > :54:50.be flooded in the winter but we do not expect it to come so quhck and
:54:51. > :54:55.last for long. If they had maintained the waterways and all of
:54:56. > :54:58.the waterways they are meant to maintain to the proper standard we
:54:59. > :55:02.would not have half the problem we have at the moment. Was this
:55:03. > :55:08.neglect? From everybody? Is this neglect? I think we would nded to
:55:09. > :55:13.take the matter of managing the levels a lot more seriously. I think
:55:14. > :55:18.this is doable. I do not thhnk we should give up on Ted Mack `t all.
:55:19. > :55:21.What joy to see in the future? We have already said we would like to
:55:22. > :55:29.see the rivers dredged quitd quickly. `` we should not ghve up on
:55:30. > :55:36.the Levels at all. Why not plan that we keep pumping as plan B? To stop
:55:37. > :55:41.the tide coming in and lockhng the system and many more things beyond.
:55:42. > :55:46.We have done this for centuries Let's go to the landscape Institute.
:55:47. > :55:51.What is your view on the future I am not a Somerset person so I
:55:52. > :55:56.feel... You are allowed in Bridgwater! I am a visitor from
:55:57. > :56:02.Gloucestershire and we cert`inly experienced the floods in 2007. We
:56:03. > :56:06.had a lot of concern that there seemed to be some knee jerk
:56:07. > :56:10.responses to problems that were happening not just here but
:56:11. > :56:13.elsewhere in the country. I think we are very concerned to feel that
:56:14. > :56:16.there should be a much more detail and Confederate response about
:56:17. > :56:22.catchment management, about what we do and how we planned throughout
:56:23. > :56:26.catchment. But also about how we look at our towns and cities, as the
:56:27. > :56:30.gentleman mentioned. `` much more detailed and considered response.
:56:31. > :56:33.How we look at making our chties and towns more resilient. There is a
:56:34. > :56:40.whole range of measures that need to be put in place. All right. I think
:56:41. > :56:43.the main problem is that thd agencies are not communicathng with
:56:44. > :56:48.the real people like James. There is a real big gap in real life. I think
:56:49. > :56:51.we are crossing about it here but what I hear from people in
:56:52. > :56:55.Boroughbridge, there is not any people from the community on these
:56:56. > :56:59.consulting boards. Any other points? We have not heard from you. The
:57:00. > :57:03.volunteers were there and wdre hoping. The teams are sitting here
:57:04. > :57:07.in front of you, young men who have been out there at the beginning or
:57:08. > :57:11.stop there as a lot more contingency and things have been worked on since
:57:12. > :57:15.then. But I would just like to say a personal thank you for workhng with
:57:16. > :57:19.all of these wonderful teams of people who have just come from all
:57:20. > :57:24.over the place to actually be there on the front line and help out. Who
:57:25. > :57:29.here has had to take help from these volunteers? I have already spoken
:57:30. > :57:35.and said they were marvellots. But you had to go and ask for assistance
:57:36. > :57:47.question I I did not but thdy have saved me a lot of time. Givd
:57:48. > :57:51.yourself a round of applausd. How long will the community response be
:57:52. > :58:00.going before you wind it down? Some houses today were straight by 1 ,
:58:01. > :58:06.but it will take weeks and weeks. `` stripped by teams. Where is this
:58:07. > :58:11.help coming from? The Counchl and the government? It is coming from
:58:12. > :58:15.volunteers and businesses and individuals that are donating from
:58:16. > :58:18.across the country. Essenti`lly it is the hard work of voluntedrs at
:58:19. > :58:25.this helping out, and if yot want to take part, there has been a disaster
:58:26. > :58:29.on our doorstep, but we havd seen the very best people come ott to
:58:30. > :58:37.help. Very good. Thank you. And that is
:58:38. > :58:45.eight from this special BBC debate. We have had a passionate and
:58:46. > :58:52.sometimes heated discussion. Dredging is scheduled to st`rt soon.
:58:53. > :58:58.We await the 20 year plan. Our thanks to the panel on to otr
:58:59. > :59:01.audience, and to you at homd for watching tonight. Let's hopd for a