0:00:02 > 0:00:07Three Sisters, Three Queens is a novel of the women
0:00:07 > 0:00:12who became Queens of England, Scotland and France
0:00:12 > 0:00:16and who were condemned to rivalry, family conflict and a bloody
0:00:16 > 0:00:17struggle for succession.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19A novelist doesn't have to invent that story,
0:00:19 > 0:00:22it was the real story of the early 16th century after Catherine
0:00:22 > 0:00:25of Aragon arrived as a Tudor bride.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29Philippa Gregory has spun the story of that period into a string
0:00:29 > 0:00:31of bestselling novels and this is her latest subject -
0:00:31 > 0:00:32Three Sisters, Three Queens.
0:00:32 > 0:00:42Welcome.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52Even by 16th century standards it is a great story.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55How well do you think this bit of the whole saga
0:00:55 > 0:01:02is understood and remembered?
0:01:02 > 0:01:07In a way, it's a really classic example of fiction
0:01:07 > 0:01:10and history put together, that this story of Three Sisters,
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Three Queens is a construct.
0:01:14 > 0:01:21What we're actually talking about is the history of Catherine
0:01:21 > 0:01:24of Aragon in the relatively early years of her marriage with Henry
0:01:24 > 0:01:30VIII and the quite separate histories of his two sisters.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33But, then, as a novelist, I come to these histories and go, like,
0:01:33 > 0:01:38but they actually are sisters, they know of each other and as it
0:01:38 > 0:01:45happens, the rise and fall of their success in their lives,
0:01:45 > 0:01:47in their kingdoms and in their fertility, compares
0:01:47 > 0:01:49and contrasts almost exactly.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53So it's a very nice example for me of what you can do in fiction that
0:01:53 > 0:01:55you wouldn't necessarily do in history.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58But of course the history itself, which hangs over the whole story,
0:01:58 > 0:02:03your fictional account of it, is so extraordinary.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05The fate of nations hanging on a marriage, on a rivalry,
0:02:05 > 0:02:10on an unexpected death, whatever it happens to be.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14It seems to me, I hope this isn't pushing it too far,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17but it's strangely contemporary, about how the fate of nations can
0:02:17 > 0:02:20change in the wink of an eye, whether it's a royal marriage
0:02:20 > 0:02:23or a referendum.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27I think one of the reasons why I love the Tudor period so much
0:02:27 > 0:02:29is you get these enormous consequences from the
0:02:29 > 0:02:31decisions of one person.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34So if you look at the one person, you really get
0:02:34 > 0:02:40a way into the history, which is completely fascinating.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44And so you do get this big national story focused on, in this instance,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47the choice of James of Scotland to marry Margaret, Henry VIII's
0:02:47 > 0:02:50sister, which puts the two countries into total unity and in the end
0:02:50 > 0:02:59produces the child who will unify the two countries.
0:02:59 > 0:03:06Take us through the three of them.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09The rivalries that sort of entangled them in the course of a few years
0:03:09 > 0:03:10had huge consequences.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14We know the wives very well and there's been very much less work
0:03:14 > 0:03:18done on the sisters and almost no work done on the mistresses
0:03:18 > 0:03:22and I really think what you see there is an example
0:03:22 > 0:03:24of the historical selection, which goes, like, we don't
0:03:24 > 0:03:27want that many women in the record, thank you.
0:03:27 > 0:03:32We've got six wives, let's leave the sisters out of it.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34Which means you actually really rarely, for the Tudor period,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38you have these untold stories.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41So the story we do know is Catherine of Aragon and she arrives
0:03:41 > 0:03:44in the novel as she arrives pretty well at the English court,
0:03:44 > 0:03:47as a princess from Spain.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49And immediately attracts, in my version of events,
0:03:49 > 0:03:52the jealousy and the sort of affronted envy of Margaret,
0:03:52 > 0:04:02who until then was the top princess at Henry's court.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05The other girl in the mix is Mary, Henry's other
0:04:05 > 0:04:11sister, younger sister.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15Famously beautiful, famously wilful, who is married off to the very,
0:04:15 > 0:04:25very old king of France and recovers from that really disastrous marriage
0:04:25 > 0:04:27for her, political marriage, to marry the man of her choice.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30So you've got these three very different stories about princesses
0:04:30 > 0:04:33who are all married to make the alliances for their family and
0:04:33 > 0:04:36how they survive that experience.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41It's the question that you have come to know very well over the years.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45How much liberty do you feel free to take with the history
0:04:45 > 0:04:49for which you have so much affection and so much respect?
0:04:49 > 0:04:55I don't take liberty with the history.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58I know authors who do and I think they're right to take
0:04:58 > 0:05:00whatever choice they want, but I don't.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04But you are dealing with characters at a depth that we can't know.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06Where I believe that I am right to go into fiction,
0:05:06 > 0:05:08where I love the process of going into fiction,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12is saying, if she did that, she must have been feeling this
0:05:12 > 0:05:15or she must be wanting to do this, or this is an expression
0:05:15 > 0:05:17of this sort of character.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21So the fiction comes out of the history, but first
0:05:21 > 0:05:26of all I look at what's happened and then I say, if somebody behaves
0:05:26 > 0:05:28like that, then they must be a woman of this nature.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31You've lived with this gang for such a long time now.
0:05:31 > 0:05:36I've been married to Henry VIII longer than any wife!
0:05:36 > 0:05:40Of these three women, the three sisters and Queens,
0:05:40 > 0:05:50as you describe them in the title, which one draws you in the most?
0:05:50 > 0:05:53You say Catherine of Aragon, because of the marriage to Henry,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55is the one that we know, whether accurately or not.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Which of them attracts you most?
0:05:57 > 0:05:59It's very...
0:05:59 > 0:06:03In a sense, which you like best is not the same as who is the most
0:06:03 > 0:06:05interesting, so you've got two things going on there.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07I have great affection for Catherine of Aragon.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09I think she was an extraordinary and courageous woman.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13Margaret, Henry's sister, lived an amazing life.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17I mean, she's married as a very young woman to James
0:06:17 > 0:06:20of Scotland and then, when widowed, she chooses
0:06:20 > 0:06:26her husband and she has to run away from Scotland.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28She gets to England and divorces him, she marries
0:06:28 > 0:06:29a third husband for choice.
0:06:29 > 0:06:35She's behaving as if she were in total charge of her own destiny.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38But of course the loss of her first husband is the fault
0:06:38 > 0:06:41of the English court.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43Yes, it's planned as a campaign by Catherine of Aragon,
0:06:43 > 0:06:47so you have this terrible dark side of the sisterhood,
0:06:47 > 0:06:50that they are always rivals and it is Catherine of Aragon's
0:06:50 > 0:06:54campaign that kills her brother-in-law.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57You can't read about these events, whether in straight history
0:06:57 > 0:07:00or fiction, without a sort of mind-boggling feeling
0:07:00 > 0:07:02of everything that subsequently came is determined by some of these
0:07:02 > 0:07:07almost chance events.
0:07:07 > 0:07:16I think the idea of history as the past, as another country,
0:07:16 > 0:07:21I think when you're an historian you get this real double view of it.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24On the one hand you go, yes, it's almost completely separate
0:07:24 > 0:07:26from our world and completely different, yet you can see how
0:07:26 > 0:07:35the actions then produce the consequences of today.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39I mean, the whole concept of nationhood, the way
0:07:39 > 0:07:42the reformation separates us from Europe, the way England
0:07:42 > 0:07:45and Scotland are absolutely committed enemies for centuries
0:07:45 > 0:07:48before the unification, you know, these are in a sense
0:07:48 > 0:07:50really current ideas, which were being worked out then
0:07:50 > 0:07:53and to which they came to some conclusions.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57And the union of the Crowns itself in 1603, about a century before
0:07:57 > 0:07:59the union of the Parliament, came about really by accident
0:07:59 > 0:08:01because of what had happened in the period that
0:08:01 > 0:08:02you're talking about.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06Absolutely.
0:08:06 > 0:08:13It's Margaret's granddaughter's boy.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16And she of course thinks all the time that when she is queen
0:08:16 > 0:08:18of Scotland and when Catherine of Aragon is failing
0:08:18 > 0:08:22to have an heir, she knows that her boy will be king
0:08:22 > 0:08:26of Scotland and king of England, and it's only Henry's decision
0:08:26 > 0:08:29to marry on until he gets a male heir that means Margaret
0:08:29 > 0:08:35is not in fact the mother of the next king of England.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Which explains why the fascination continues.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39Philippa Gregory, author of Three Sisters, Three Queens,
0:08:39 > 0:08:40thank you very much.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43Thank you.
0:08:55 > 0:08:55Good
0:08:55 > 0:08:55Good evening,
0:08:55 > 0:08:56Good evening, it
0:08:56 > 0:08:56Good evening, it has