0:00:02 > 0:00:04the American author Jodi Picoult to talk about her latest novel,
0:00:04 > 0:00:09Small Great Things.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Jodi Picoult is a storyteller who asks questions of the moment that
0:00:12 > 0:00:13disturb.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Her characters are faced with choices and consequences
0:00:15 > 0:00:19we recognise and maybe fear.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21Her new novel, Small Great Things is about
0:00:21 > 0:00:24life and death, race and prejudice, a story of belief and individual
0:00:24 > 0:00:34responsibility.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42It starts with the death of a child in hospital.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44And soon we find ourselves in a legal, political and
0:00:44 > 0:00:50moral haze from which it is very difficult to escape.
0:00:50 > 0:00:51Which is what good stories do.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56Welcome.
0:00:58 > 0:01:03The episode that leads to the whole story is one is very close to
0:01:03 > 0:01:07people's experience, to know that it could happen then.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10That seems to be something you have got a knack of
0:01:10 > 0:01:19doing, finding something we all know could be around the corner.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25I think that in the case of this particular
0:01:25 > 0:01:28book, you know, racism that is something that is all around us,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30even if we don't believe, as people with light skin,
0:01:30 > 0:01:36that we are part of the problem. We are.
0:01:36 > 0:01:37Because racism isn't just about prejudice,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40it is also about having power and when you are born white
0:01:40 > 0:01:44in America or in the UK, you have power.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46So the episode that leads off the book, where you've
0:01:46 > 0:01:51got a nurse that is discriminated against for the colour of her skin
0:01:51 > 0:01:53and a hospital that backs up the patient,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55the father who says, "I don't want anyone
0:01:55 > 0:01:58"African-American touching my kid," that is an episode that I think
0:01:58 > 0:02:03would make all of us feel a little bit on edge.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Even those of us who believe in patients'
0:02:05 > 0:02:11rights also believe it's not quite fair.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14And we all know that ethical questions of that kind, who has
0:02:14 > 0:02:16the say, are ones that are all around us.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19We sometimes pretend that they are out there but no,
0:02:19 > 0:02:21they are in our lives.
0:02:21 > 0:02:22Exactly.
0:02:22 > 0:02:23And I love doing that.
0:02:23 > 0:02:31I love writing about issues of morality, issues of conscience.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34One of the reasons I wanted to write this particular
0:02:34 > 0:02:37book is because racism is really hard to talk about without
0:02:37 > 0:02:39offending someone and so as a result of that we don't talk
0:02:39 > 0:02:40about it at all.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44But when we do talk about racism it's really easy for us to point
0:02:44 > 0:02:46to a white supremacist and say, that is a racist.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50It is a lot harder to point to yourself and say the same thing.
0:02:50 > 0:02:51Right.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54It is impossible not to say that this is the kind of story which
0:02:54 > 0:02:58is particularly appropriate at the moment.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00Not just because of the outcome of the election in itself
0:03:00 > 0:03:03but because these questions are alive in the American discourse
0:03:03 > 0:03:06in a way they haven't been for some time.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09One of the things that has been interesting for me about the release
0:03:09 > 0:03:16of this book is it was targeted to an audience of white people.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20As a writer who is white myself I'm not going to write a book
0:03:20 > 0:03:22about racism to tell people of colour how difficult
0:03:22 > 0:03:24their lives are.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28I am going to write to tell people who look like me, you may need
0:03:28 > 0:03:29to open your eyes a little wider.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Interestingly, since the election we have seen a rise in hate speech,
0:03:32 > 0:03:33hate crimes.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36We have a candidate who rose to power with divisiveness and
0:03:36 > 0:03:44through scapegoating groups of people.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47What I'm hearing a lot of right now is that a lot of white
0:03:47 > 0:03:49people are devastated by the vehemence and vitriol
0:03:49 > 0:03:51that is suddenly bleeding and rising to the surface.
0:03:51 > 0:04:00People of colour are saying that has been there all along.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03If you are right, and the evidence suggests you are, about outbursts of
0:04:03 > 0:04:08nasty stuff, which of course the President-elect has said that he
0:04:08 > 0:04:10abhors and never encouraged, it will mean that this has got to be
0:04:10 > 0:04:15confronted directly, obviously by him and in office.
0:04:15 > 0:04:21Much more directly than it has been.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25And by society at large.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27There is no more saying, "There are some wild, kookie people
0:04:27 > 0:04:28"but they are a minority."
0:04:28 > 0:04:30It is there in front of them.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Not only that but I would argue it is not
0:04:33 > 0:04:39a minority anymore.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42This president-elect made hate speech mainstream and has filled a
0:04:42 > 0:04:44cabinet with people who actually are white nationalists so you can't
0:04:44 > 0:04:47really call the marginal anymore because now they have the ear
0:04:47 > 0:04:51of the President, the highest office in America.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53The interesting thing from your point of view is
0:04:53 > 0:04:56that you have written a story which is fiction and
0:04:56 > 0:04:59based on episodes which could happen and probably have happened to some
0:04:59 > 0:05:03people here and there.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05But it is dealing with these questions not in
0:05:05 > 0:05:06a political way.
0:05:06 > 0:05:07Correct.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09Not in terms of Donald Trump's election or
0:05:09 > 0:05:10anything of that kind.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12But in the here and now, the day-to-day
0:05:12 > 0:05:14practice of your life.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16Absolutely.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19Racism is big, messy and scary and institutional and systemic
0:05:19 > 0:05:22but it is perpetuated and dismantled in individual acts, and so just as
0:05:22 > 0:05:26there are moments of micro-aggression where a person of
0:05:26 > 0:05:28colour feels a direct threat or something even very subtle
0:05:28 > 0:05:31that is sort of a slight from a white person,
0:05:31 > 0:05:37there are also moments of healing that happen between people.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40How much does the moral landscape that you are talking about
0:05:40 > 0:05:43here affect you when you are contemplating the story or when you
0:05:43 > 0:05:47are manufacturing?
0:05:47 > 0:05:49It is actually the genesis of the story for me.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51The books that I write come from issues
0:05:51 > 0:05:54that I don't understand, things that keep me up at night,
0:05:54 > 0:05:57things that are worrying me as a wife, as a woman,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59an American, a mom.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01And you know they will grip the reader.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04This is going to sound horrible but I don't care.
0:06:04 > 0:06:05The truth is when I'm writing I'm really
0:06:05 > 0:06:10writing a book for myself, to thrash out something I don't understand.
0:06:10 > 0:06:14This book was a huge wake-up call for me.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18I had to look very deep within myself and saw a lot of
0:06:18 > 0:06:19things that were unflattering.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23I have not spoken about race for 50 years of my life because I don't
0:06:23 > 0:06:24have to.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26That is a privilege in and of itself.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28I am not particularly proud of that but I learned through
0:06:28 > 0:06:32this book how to be a better ally and that's something I hope I can
0:06:32 > 0:06:34share with people who want to have a conversation about race
0:06:34 > 0:06:37that don't have the tools or vocabulary to do so.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40You can do it in a story without shouting it from the rooftops.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46That's the point.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48The beauty of fiction is it allows you a gentle
0:06:48 > 0:06:50slide into a very difficult and rife moral discussion.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53If I walked up to you and said, "Let's talk about racism,"
0:06:53 > 0:06:54you're going to shut down.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57If I give you a book instead and say, "When this happened
0:06:57 > 0:07:00"to Ruth it made me feel this way and it reminded me of something
0:07:01 > 0:07:02"I saw in the news..."
0:07:02 > 0:07:05All of this means you are having a much more organic discussion.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07That is why I think fiction is such a magnificent tool
0:07:07 > 0:07:08for discussion.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11I just am fascinated by the way that you find a question
0:07:11 > 0:07:14that disturbs you, intrigues you, keeps you up at night.
0:07:14 > 0:07:15How long does that take?
0:07:15 > 0:07:16It depends.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18It usually feels a little bit like you are a
0:07:18 > 0:07:21dog with a bone.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23It's something that keeps waking me up and I keep
0:07:23 > 0:07:24thinking about it.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26And you know that's a story.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28If it keeps waking me up I know it's right.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30The other thing is you know how sometimes you
0:07:30 > 0:07:33are obsessed with something, everywhere you turn you seem to see
0:07:33 > 0:07:34evidence of that.
0:07:34 > 0:07:35Very often that happens to me.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38I was worried about racism and thinking about it and
0:07:38 > 0:07:41then I kept finding issues and stories in the news that seem to
0:07:41 > 0:07:43reflect that, including the real-life story that inspired this
0:07:43 > 0:07:45of an African-American nurse who was discriminated against in a
0:07:45 > 0:07:47hospital.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Once you're up and running, does it write itself?
0:07:49 > 0:07:52Nothing writes itself!
0:07:52 > 0:07:54It's not that it has gotten any easier in the past
0:07:54 > 0:07:5925 years.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01I do think that the practice becomes more familiar to
0:08:01 > 0:08:03you but every book is different, every group of characters is
0:08:03 > 0:08:06different and in particular with this book, this was my 24th book,
0:08:06 > 0:08:11you would think it would be easier.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15It took longer to write, I had 1,200 pages of transcripts for notes.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17I'm still thinking about the book, discussing the book.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19I haven't moved on to do research for the new one
0:08:19 > 0:08:24because my head is still stuck here.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26To that extent, you always do an enormous amount of research.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29You talk to people, you look at people who have been in this
0:08:29 > 0:08:33situation and you referred to the transcripts.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35You get it all in your head before you
0:08:35 > 0:08:40start to make it up.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Correct.
0:08:44 > 0:08:45In particular, this book was a specific
0:08:45 > 0:08:48challenge in that it is told by three different narrative voices.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Two of which are very different from mine.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53One is an African-American woman and one is a white supremacist.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Because I was writing Other, I really had to find the best
0:08:55 > 0:08:57way to do that with empathy and authenticity.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59Empathy and authenticity are two interesting words here.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01Somebody with which you profoundly disagree, this has been
0:09:01 > 0:09:09made clear, you have to get inside their heads.
0:09:09 > 0:09:10Absolutely.
0:09:10 > 0:09:11And it doesn't make it easy.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14When I wrote that character I would go downstairs
0:09:14 > 0:09:16every day and take a shower because I felt dirty.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19I didn't like being in his tongue or in his head.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21I didn't like the way he made me feel.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23But you have to understand it. I had to.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27And one of the things I am proudest of in this book is you will feel
0:09:27 > 0:09:28sympathy for a white supremacist.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Things happen to him that in my opinion are the worst things
0:09:31 > 0:09:32that could happen to anyone.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34In the end, do you think that helps you?
0:09:34 > 0:09:38I do.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41You get readers who begin to understand how easy it is.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Yeah.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45Nobody in real life is black or white.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Nobody is 100% evil or 100% good and I do believe fiction is
0:09:48 > 0:09:52meant to be a reflection of the world around us so my characters
0:09:52 > 0:09:58shouldn't be caricatures.
0:09:58 > 0:09:59Small Great Things.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00Jodi Picoult, thank you very much. Thank you so much.