:00:12. > :00:13.Hello, and welcome to Monday In Parliament.
:00:14. > :00:18.The House of Lords votes to delay the Government's cuts to tax
:00:19. > :00:22.credits, after an afternoon of intense debate.
:00:23. > :00:28.?3,120 from a family where he's in full-time work and she's caring
:00:29. > :00:35.?3,120. We, really, my Lords, don't need to do this to them.
:00:36. > :00:41.Is the Government doing enough to ensure our digital lives are secure?
:00:42. > :00:44.This Government's data policy is chaos illuminated by occasional
:00:45. > :00:51.And a piece of Parliamentary history - the first woman bishop to
:00:52. > :00:56.I, Rachel, Lord Bishop of Gloucester,
:00:57. > :01:02.swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance
:01:03. > :01:08.But first, the showdown on tax credits in the House of Lords.
:01:09. > :01:11.The Chamber was packed for the debate, which was opened by the
:01:12. > :01:16.She urged peers to respect the financial supremacy of the House
:01:17. > :01:20.of Commons, and she defended the Government's plans to cut
:01:21. > :01:24.tax credits, which supplement the incomes of people on low wages.
:01:25. > :01:27.This Government believes that as part of the overall package
:01:28. > :01:29.of measures that support working people,
:01:30. > :01:33.these changes to tax credits are right.
:01:34. > :01:37.If we want people to earn more and to keep more of their own money,
:01:38. > :01:41.we simply cannot keep recycling their money through
:01:42. > :01:49.So, my Lords, that is the Government's case for these changes,
:01:50. > :01:53.but with the amendments we are due to consider, there are
:01:54. > :01:58.about our role in scrutinising secondary
:01:59. > :02:04.legislation, and about the financial primacy of the other place.
:02:05. > :02:07.There were four different motions on the table.
:02:08. > :02:09.Lady Stowell said the Government could live with
:02:10. > :02:14.expressing "regret" at the changes, but allowing them through.
:02:15. > :02:16.But she said the motions from the cross-benchers, Labour
:02:17. > :02:21.and the Liberal Democrats took the Lords into uncharted territory.
:02:22. > :02:25.Three - those in the name of the noble Baronesses Lady Manzoor,
:02:26. > :02:31.Lady Meacher and Lady Hollis, would, if agreed to, mean that
:02:32. > :02:37.this House has withheld its approval to the statutory instrument.
:02:38. > :02:41.And that would stand in direct contrast to the elected House of
:02:42. > :02:45.Commons, which has not only approved the instrument, but reaffirmed its
:02:46. > :02:53.I have been to see the Chancellor this morning at Number 11, and I can
:02:54. > :02:58.confirm that he would listen very carefully, were the House to express
:02:59. > :03:06.its concern in the way that it is precedented for us to do so.
:03:07. > :03:09.And that is on the Right Reverend Prelate's amendment.
:03:10. > :03:15.Does she accept that, as far as the amendment of Lady Hollis is
:03:16. > :03:22.concerned, and the amendment in the name of the noble lady, Lady Meacher
:03:23. > :03:27.is concerned, neither of those amendments are fatal to resolutions.
:03:28. > :03:48.What those amendments do is withhold this House's agreement and approval,
:03:49. > :03:53.to a statutory instrument that has been already approved
:03:54. > :03:59.Lady Manzoor told peers about the Lib Dem motion, designed
:04:00. > :04:05.We are talking about a measure that, according to the expert analysis
:04:06. > :04:09.of the Institute For Fiscal Studies, will hit 3 million
:04:10. > :04:19.My Lords, these are people doing the right thing, going out to work
:04:20. > :04:25.They are exactly the kind of people the Government has said
:04:26. > :04:31.Yet this change will have a seriously damaging impact
:04:32. > :04:35.on their ability to keep their heads above water.
:04:36. > :04:40.Fatal motions to regulations should be used incredibly sparingly, and I
:04:41. > :04:45.wish we were not in this position, but I cannot think of a better
:04:46. > :04:47.reason for this house to use such an option
:04:48. > :04:56.children and the parents that go out to work to support them.
:04:57. > :04:59.The cross-bench motion was designed to delay the changes.
:05:00. > :05:03.The beauty of your Lordships' House, as we know, is to enable
:05:04. > :05:07.Governments to think again if, in our professional judgment,
:05:08. > :05:13.and to hold the elected House the Government to account.
:05:14. > :05:17.My Lords, you can imagine that I do not take this action lightly.
:05:18. > :05:22.I am acutely conscious of the threats made by the Government
:05:23. > :05:33.My motion clearly leaves the matter in the hands of the elected House.
:05:34. > :05:36.The justification for a delay is that the House of Commons will have
:05:37. > :05:40.a full day debate and a vote on these issues, as I said on Thursday.
:05:41. > :05:42.I understand that dozens of Conservative backbenchers are
:05:43. > :05:44.urging the Chancellor to adjust the tax credit reforms,
:05:45. > :05:50.Yes, there have been three votes on tax credits in the House
:05:51. > :05:55.The Conservative MPs, not me, say they did not have
:05:56. > :05:59.the information they needed when they voted for the cuts.
:06:00. > :06:03.I hear that many of them are now livid about this.
:06:04. > :06:07.The fact is, there was a vote in the other place last week.
:06:08. > :06:13.There was a clear majority, and not a single Conservative member
:06:14. > :06:18.voted in the sense that the noble lady is indicating.
:06:19. > :06:21.Labour also wanted to delay the cuts.
:06:22. > :06:27.That's a fig leaf, possibly disguising tensions in the Commons
:06:28. > :06:33.My Lords, we can be supportive of the Government,
:06:34. > :06:40.and give them what they did not ask for, financial privilege.
:06:41. > :06:48.We can be supportive, instead, of the 3 million families facing
:06:49. > :06:51.letters at Christmas telling them on average, they will lose up to
:06:52. > :07:00.A letter which will take away 10% of their income on average.
:07:01. > :07:06.We can and should offer transitional protection to existing families,
:07:07. > :07:09.with council tax credits, be self-employed, whose median wage,
:07:10. > :07:19.Families with disabled children, and carers, we could protect them.
:07:20. > :07:22.Whereas new claimants, and those newly on universal credit?
:07:23. > :07:28.Tony and Jacinta Goode, from my city of Norwich.
:07:29. > :07:31.He is in full-time work, above the Living Wage.
:07:32. > :07:36.She is a carer of two substantially disabled children.
:07:37. > :07:42.Their Christmas letter will tell them
:07:43. > :07:51.that they will lose ?60 a week. ?3120.
:07:52. > :07:57.?3120, from a family where he is in full-time work, and she is
:07:58. > :08:01.caring for two disabled children. ?3120.
:08:02. > :08:04.We, really, my Lords, don't need to do this to them.
:08:05. > :08:06.And next, the motion from the bishops.
:08:07. > :08:13.I say to the Government that these proposals are morally indefensible.
:08:14. > :08:23.It's clear to me, and I believe to very many others,
:08:24. > :08:26.that these proposals blatantly threaten damage to the lives
:08:27. > :08:31.This must not be the way to achieve the Government's
:08:32. > :08:36.goals, at a cost to those who, if we believe the rhetoric, the Government
:08:37. > :08:53.this seems punishing rather than encouragement.
:08:54. > :08:56.And after four hours of powerful speeches,
:08:57. > :09:09.the Government was defeated in two votes.
:09:10. > :09:16.The Lords backed plans proposed by the cross-benchers and Labour to
:09:17. > :09:20.Now, is the Government doing enough to protect Talk Talk customers
:09:21. > :09:23.The telecoms company has acknowledged that a cyber attack
:09:24. > :09:27.may have led to customers' bank details being accessed.
:09:28. > :09:30.The Culture Minister, Ed Vaizey, was summoned to the Commons to
:09:31. > :09:35.This is clearly a very serious matter.
:09:36. > :09:38.We are all aware that Talk Talk suffered a very serious data breach
:09:39. > :09:41.last week, and I want to reassure members of this House, and
:09:42. > :09:44.of course, Talk Talk customers that may have been affected, that law
:09:45. > :09:46.enforcement have been working very closely with the company
:09:47. > :09:48.since the breach was noticed, and continues to do so.
:09:49. > :09:51.But I also want to comment the Chief Executive of Talk Talk
:09:52. > :09:55.for their openness and transparency since Talk Talk became aware of the
:09:56. > :09:58.attack, and I know she will do all she can to protect her customers.
:09:59. > :10:01.Today, up to 4 million people are wondering
:10:02. > :10:05.what data they have lost and where a cyber attack will come from.
:10:06. > :10:08.They are checking their bank accounts, their callers,
:10:09. > :10:11.The Government needs to reassure us that
:10:12. > :10:16.our digital lives are secure and help our digital economy to grow.
:10:17. > :10:21.This Government's data policy is chaos illuminated by the occasional
:10:22. > :10:29.Will the Minister acknowledge that all the innovation has come from the
:10:30. > :10:33.criminals, whilst the Government sits on its hands, leaving it to
:10:34. > :10:37.businesses and consumers to suffer the consequences?
:10:38. > :10:41.We have invested more than ?860 million in cyber security.
:10:42. > :10:44.We have a number of very, very effective schemes with
:10:45. > :10:48.which to engage business, and it's worth remembering that this
:10:49. > :10:51.money was invested at a time of economic austerities, and it was
:10:52. > :10:56.one of the first decisions taken by the Coalition Government.
:10:57. > :11:00.Constituents are getting calls, or apparent calls, and e-mails,
:11:01. > :11:06.from companies saying that because of the Talk Talk situation,
:11:07. > :11:11.They are saying, so that we know we are talking to
:11:12. > :11:14.the right person, can we have your address and date of birth?
:11:15. > :11:18.What is the Minister's advice to my constituents?
:11:19. > :11:22.Well, clearly, this case has achieved a great deal
:11:23. > :11:26.Common-sense, therefore, tells us that people will try
:11:27. > :11:31.and somehow scam of the back of it, and my advice to his constituents
:11:32. > :11:37.And also, my advice to honourable members, if
:11:38. > :11:41.any honourable member has any issue with any constituents regarding this
:11:42. > :11:44.case, where they feel that that issue is not being taken seriously,
:11:45. > :11:49.Isn't it part of the problem here that all this information has to
:11:50. > :11:53.be given online, and there is no opportunity for other forms, i.e.,
:11:54. > :11:57.the old paperwork, which was safer, and many people feel more secure
:11:58. > :12:02.in giving less data, but in a way that they have copies?
:12:03. > :12:05.Well, the honourable gentleman makes an interesting point.
:12:06. > :12:08.I think we now live in a digital world and we'll see more and more
:12:09. > :12:11.companies engaging with their customers on a digital platform,
:12:12. > :12:14.and indeed, it is important to stress, Mr Speaker, this is what
:12:15. > :12:19.I'm sure all of us in this House transact with...
:12:20. > :12:27.So, I'm not sure we can go backwards in that respect.
:12:28. > :12:32.The challenge for Government is to engage with business and to
:12:33. > :12:35.emphasise to them, as we have not been shy in doing, the importance of
:12:36. > :12:42.So, won't the Secretary of State agree that telecom providers must be
:12:43. > :12:45.held fully responsible for failing to protect confidential
:12:46. > :12:50.data, and regulation needs to be strengthened to ensure this?
:12:51. > :12:57.Free counselling from Talk Talk is meaningless twaddle, I'm afraid.
:12:58. > :13:01.I thank the honourable gentleman for that extensive question, and
:13:02. > :13:05.as I said earlier, obviously, the Information Commissioner's Office
:13:06. > :13:10.will be looking at this data breach, and they do have extensive powers to
:13:11. > :13:13.take action, and indeed to let the significant funds,
:13:14. > :13:16.but we are always open, on their side of the house, two suggestions
:13:17. > :13:21.As I said in an earlier answer, I will certainly be at the Information
:13:22. > :13:24.Commissioner's Office to look at further changes which may need to be
:13:25. > :13:34.You're watching Monday in Parliament with me, Kristiina Cooper.
:13:35. > :13:36.Now, the future of children's centres came under the spotlight
:13:37. > :13:41.Labour MPs challenged the closure of some centres but were accused
:13:42. > :13:44.of "counting buildings" rather than the services offered to
:13:45. > :13:50.It is crucial that we evaluate the impact
:13:51. > :13:54.The Department for Education has funded the evaluation
:13:55. > :13:57.of children's centres in England research and three interim reports
:13:58. > :14:02.I expect the full impact report to be published later this year
:14:03. > :14:05.in a consultation to follow on how children's centres can have
:14:06. > :14:08.the greatest impact for local communities going forward.
:14:09. > :14:11.Polfrey Sure Start, in my constituency, have twice been
:14:12. > :14:14.rated outstanding for doing community-based work and culturally
:14:15. > :14:20.So could the minister say what further steps can be taken to ensure
:14:21. > :14:26.that they can continue supporting parents with this vital work?
:14:27. > :14:30.Well, the honourable member is an excellent and assiduous MP, and
:14:31. > :14:33.can I congratulate the sure start centre in her constituency for the
:14:34. > :14:38.excellent work they are doing, which highlights that to look at the
:14:39. > :14:41.future of children's centres, we've got to look at more innovation and
:14:42. > :14:46.other ways of delivering services that work for local communities
:14:47. > :14:53.In Enfield, we've had the closure of some 12 children's centres.
:14:54. > :14:57.Head teachers tell me this is having the impact that more
:14:58. > :15:01.and more children are not school ready, and this affects their
:15:02. > :15:04.progress throughout their whole primary school career and beyond.
:15:05. > :15:10.What's the minister intending to do to address that problem?
:15:11. > :15:13.Well, the party opposite continue to count buildings when they talk
:15:14. > :15:16.about children's centres rather than the services.
:15:17. > :15:20.1 million families are benefiting from children's centres services
:15:21. > :15:23.but in terms of school readiness, free childcare for disadvantaged
:15:24. > :15:28.two-year-olds, all three and four-year-olds, is what is
:15:29. > :15:32.delivering the school readiness that has seen record numbers
:15:33. > :15:34.of children being ready for school according to the early
:15:35. > :15:39.The minister continues to talk about the services that are offered but he
:15:40. > :15:43.will be aware that the charity 4Children has recently highlighted
:15:44. > :15:47.that over 2000 children's centres sites have had their budgets
:15:48. > :15:50.significantly cut this financial year and that fewer centres are
:15:51. > :15:57.Nearly 60% report cutting front line services, nearly 30% have
:15:58. > :16:01.significantly cut the range of services they offer, 28% are now
:16:02. > :16:04.forced to charge for services that would otherwise have been free
:16:05. > :16:10.Is the minister proud of the government's legacy
:16:11. > :16:16.Mr Speaker, firstly, can I welcome the honourable member
:16:17. > :16:20.It's great to see many of their predecessors still
:16:21. > :16:27.It's wonderful that new politics is being led by the same old faces,
:16:28. > :16:32.I am proud of our record on children's centres that have
:16:33. > :16:37.seen that record numbers of families receiving support
:16:38. > :16:41.but also, a 50% increase in health visitors and also, we've expanded
:16:42. > :16:47.We are on the side of the families that need children's centres most
:16:48. > :16:53.Now, education is devolved to Wales and Scotland but SNP MPs were
:16:54. > :16:56.concerned that decisions made in Westminster would end up
:16:57. > :17:04.The proposed changes to tax credits will see 22,000 children in Scotland
:17:05. > :17:07.lose their entitlement free school meals.
:17:08. > :17:10.Our First Minister has pledged a safeguard entitlement to free
:17:11. > :17:14.Can the Minister make a similar pledge to ensure that children
:17:15. > :17:17.from the most vulnerable backgrounds in the rest of the UK remain
:17:18. > :17:26.The honourable member would be aware that in the rest of the UK,
:17:27. > :17:28.the majority of children who are entitled to free
:17:29. > :17:33.school meals are children of parents who are on out-of-work benefits.
:17:34. > :17:36.We are assessing the impact on what this would be and there is
:17:37. > :17:39.nothing to say that people who are currently on free school meals will
:17:40. > :17:44.Assuming that a similar percentage of children across the rest of the
:17:45. > :17:48.UK will lose their entitlement to free school meals, as are estimated
:17:49. > :17:53.in Scotland, how much does the Minister estimate that changes to
:17:54. > :17:58.tax credits will save his department on free school meals
:17:59. > :18:07.and how will Scotland see its budget cut as a result?
:18:08. > :18:10.Mr Speaker, it is worth making absolutely clear that whatever the
:18:11. > :18:14.position of tax credits are for the United Kingdom, eligibility for free
:18:15. > :18:19.school meals in Scotland is a matter for the Scottish Government and I
:18:20. > :18:23.would rather that the SNP didn't try to scaremonger
:18:24. > :18:26.about what would happen in the rest of the United Kingdom but made it
:18:27. > :18:32.very clear what they will do as far as a result of these changes.
:18:33. > :18:34.Now, MPs have criticised the decision to
:18:35. > :18:38.arrest three protestors during last week's state visit to the UK by
:18:39. > :18:43.The protests took place during the President's procession through
:18:44. > :18:49.One of the protestors placed under arrest was Dr Shao Jiang, a research
:18:50. > :18:54.scholar who was involved with the 1989 Tiananmen Square protest.
:18:55. > :18:58.He stands accused of an alleged breach of the peace
:18:59. > :19:02.and suspicion of conspiracy to commit threatening behaviour.
:19:03. > :19:05.The Metropolitan Police themselves have issued a statement
:19:06. > :19:10.They reject any suggestion that they acted inappropriately.
:19:11. > :19:12.They made it clear that, throughout the visit,
:19:13. > :19:16.they had sought to facilitate peaceful protest and ensure that all
:19:17. > :19:21.of those that wished to do so were allowed to express their views.
:19:22. > :19:24.That is a fundamental British value of freedom of expression which I'm
:19:25. > :19:28.Freedom of expression and association, which I'm sure this
:19:29. > :19:32.Right honourable and honourable members from across the House will,
:19:33. > :19:37.I am sure, share my deep concern of the way in which Dr Shao Jiang,
:19:38. > :19:40.a former Chinese dissident and a veteran of the Tiananmen Square
:19:41. > :19:47.protests of 1989, was arrested on Wednesday of last week on The Mall
:19:48. > :19:52.and a short time later, two Tibetan students, one of whom was a British
:19:53. > :19:57.citizen, were also arrested for attempting to display a Tibetan flag
:19:58. > :19:59.whilst the Chinese President's cavalcade was passing the
:20:00. > :20:04.Dr Shao, who's now a British citizen, stepped out into the road
:20:05. > :20:08.while he was trying to display two A4-sized placards, protesting
:20:09. > :20:12.against China's human rights abuses when he was tackled to the ground by
:20:13. > :20:16.Mr Speaker, there is an ongoing police investigation.
:20:17. > :20:19.Three people are on bail while the investigation continues
:20:20. > :20:22.and I'm not going to jeopardise the case or any investigations
:20:23. > :20:28.Does the Minister share my shame at the reported harassment
:20:29. > :20:31.of a Tiananmen Square survivor, Dr Shao Jiang?
:20:32. > :20:35.What will the Minister do if peaceful protesters,
:20:36. > :20:39.like myself or other peaceful protesters in this Chamber, get
:20:40. > :20:42.a knock on the door in the middle of the night from the police?
:20:43. > :20:50.I'm not going to prejudge an investigation
:20:51. > :20:53.by the Metropolitan Police, which I have a huge amount of respect for,
:20:54. > :20:56.like I do the other 42 authorities that I'm responsible for.
:20:57. > :20:58.Let's wait and see, not prejudge a case,
:20:59. > :21:46.It seems to many people that what took place was British police action
:21:47. > :21:52.with Chinese characteristics. I wasn't there. I saw the TV coverage.
:21:53. > :21:55.The officers made a decision to arrest.
:21:56. > :21:59.What I'm going to ask him to do is tell me if he can think of any
:22:00. > :22:01.reason, hypothetically speaking, any reason why somebody waving their
:22:02. > :22:04.country's flag should lead to them being arrested, put behind bars and
:22:05. > :22:08.having their mobile phone and PC taken from them?
:22:09. > :22:16.Mr Speaker, with all due respect, this may become slightly repetitive.
:22:17. > :22:20.And so he urged her to wait for the investigation to finish.
:22:21. > :22:22.The Speaker, John Bercow, has been explaining how the new
:22:23. > :22:26.procedure known as English Votes For English Laws, or Evel, will work.
:22:27. > :22:30.Last Thursday, the Commons voted to give MPs with constituencies
:22:31. > :22:34.in England a greater say in policies that only affect England.
:22:35. > :22:40.It will be the Speaker's job to decide what England-only issues are.
:22:41. > :22:42.After a government bill has been introduced,
:22:43. > :22:47.a note will be published in the appropriate place on the order paper
:22:48. > :22:52.to the effect that I have not yet considered it the certification.
:22:53. > :22:55.The same process will be followed for statutory instruments
:22:56. > :23:02.If I sign a certificate, the note on the order paper will be
:23:03. > :23:07.Any certification will also be recorded in the votes
:23:08. > :23:15.I do not propose to record a decision not to certify.
:23:16. > :23:19.At the end of report stages of bills, where I am required to
:23:20. > :23:22.consider any matter for certification, I would, as
:23:23. > :23:28.a matter of course, expect a brief suspension of the House so that I or
:23:29. > :23:34.a Deputy can leave the chair and decide whether to certify.
:23:35. > :23:39.Similar brief suspensions may be necessary but later stages.
:23:40. > :23:43.I propose to accept the advice of the procedure committee not,
:23:44. > :23:48.as a rule, to give reasons for decisions on certification
:23:49. > :23:53.during this experimental phase of the new regime.
:23:54. > :23:59.As set out on Thursday, we are an experimental territory
:24:00. > :24:05.and I may indeed myself experiment by adjusting these arrangements
:24:06. > :24:11.Whatever the views of colleagues on their merits, I hope that
:24:12. > :24:15.the House will support me and the offices of the House in trying
:24:16. > :24:23.to give effect to these standing orders to the best of our ability.
:24:24. > :24:25.And we end with a piece of parliamentary history.
:24:26. > :24:29.A woman bishop joined the House of Lords for the first time.
:24:30. > :24:31.The Bishop of Gloucester, Right Reverend Rachel Treweek, has said
:24:32. > :24:44.that God should be seen as neither male nor female but simply as God.
:24:45. > :24:46.I, Rachel, Lord Bishop of Gloucester,
:24:47. > :24:50.do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance
:24:51. > :24:54.to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors according
:24:55. > :25:05.She took the oath and made her way to her seat,
:25:06. > :25:08.flanked by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Reverend Justin
:25:09. > :25:20.Welby, and the Bishop of London, the Right Reverend Richard Chartres.
:25:21. > :25:41.A round of applause there for the Bishop of Gloucester - a rare
:25:42. > :25:46.And given the debate on tax credits, it was quite
:25:47. > :25:52.Georgina Pattinson will be here for the rest of the week.
:25:53. > :26:07.But from me, Kristiina Cooper, goodbye.