0:00:19 > 0:00:21Hello and welcome to Monday in Parliament.
0:00:21 > 0:00:22The main news from Westminster.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24Winter pressures in the NHS.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26The Health Secretary calls for an honest discussion
0:00:26 > 0:00:28about A and E departments.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31We are going to protect our four hour standard.
0:00:31 > 0:00:36We need to be clear it is a promise to sort out all urgent
0:00:36 > 0:00:39health problems within four hours, not all health problems, however
0:00:39 > 0:00:40minor.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Plans to stop domestic abusers from questioning
0:00:42 > 0:00:45ex-partners in family courts.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49As a result of the family court process this extremely
0:00:49 > 0:00:50vulnerable woman needed weeks of medication and months
0:00:51 > 0:00:53of counselling to recover.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55She has now suffered this ordeal three times.
0:00:55 > 0:01:00And peers rally to the defence of England's universities.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02Universities have changed the world because of
0:01:02 > 0:01:05what they are.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Because they are different and they are distinctive.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10It was the first day back at Westminster for MPs
0:01:10 > 0:01:11after the Christmas break.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14They returned to news that the National Health Service
0:01:14 > 0:01:17has not, however, had much of a break.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons that it had been
0:01:20 > 0:01:23a tough Christmas and that, with cold weather on the way,
0:01:23 > 0:01:27the winter pressures were likely to continue.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Jeremy Hunt also said it was time to rethink the NHS target that
0:01:30 > 0:01:32all patients attending Accident and Emergency should be
0:01:32 > 0:01:38seen within four hours.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Tuesday after Christmas was the busiest day
0:01:40 > 0:01:42in the history of the NHS.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Some hospitals are reporting that A attendances are up to
0:01:45 > 0:01:5130% higher compared to last year.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54I therefore want to set out how we intend to protect the service
0:01:54 > 0:01:56through an extremely challenging period and sustain it for the
0:01:56 > 0:01:58future.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00He said the NHS had made more extensive winter
0:02:00 > 0:02:03preparations than ever before.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07The result has been that this winter has already seen days
0:02:07 > 0:02:11when A have treated a record number of people within four hours.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14And there have been fewer serious incidents declared that many
0:02:14 > 0:02:19expected.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22As Chris Hopson, head of NHS Providers said, although there
0:02:22 > 0:02:25have been problems at some Trusts, the system as a whole is doing
0:02:25 > 0:02:27better than last year.
0:02:27 > 0:02:32However there are a number of Trusts where the
0:02:32 > 0:02:37situation has been extremely fragile.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39All of last week's A diverts happened happened at 19
0:02:39 > 0:02:45Trusts, of which four are in special measures.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48It is clear we need to have an honest discussion with the
0:02:48 > 0:02:51public about the purpose of A departments.
0:02:51 > 0:02:57There is nowhere outside the UK that commits to all
0:02:57 > 0:03:07patients that we will sort out any health need within four hours.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13If we are going to protect our four hour standard we
0:03:13 > 0:03:16need to be clear that it is a commitment to sort out
0:03:16 > 0:03:17all urgent health problems
0:03:17 > 0:03:19within four hours, but not all problems, however minor.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Labour said the NHS was in a worse state than the Health
0:03:22 > 0:03:26Secretary had suggested.
0:03:26 > 0:03:2815 hospitals ran out of beds in one day
0:03:28 > 0:03:29in December.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31Several hospitals have warned they can't offer
0:03:31 > 0:03:32comprehensive care.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35Elderly patients have been left languishing on
0:03:35 > 0:03:38hospital trolleys in corridors sometimes for over 24 hours.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41And he says care is only falling over in a
0:03:41 > 0:03:42couple of places.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45I know La La Land did well at the Golden Globes last
0:03:45 > 0:03:46night but I didn't realise the Secretary
0:03:47 > 0:03:48of State was living there.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Perhaps that is where he has been all weekend.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56Can he now confirm that the NHS is facing a winter crisis
0:03:56 > 0:03:59and the blame for this lies at the door of Number
0:03:59 > 0:04:00Ten Downing Street?
0:04:00 > 0:04:03With my background I know exactly what it is like when
0:04:03 > 0:04:07A is swamped, when you do not have anywhere to put people.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11I do not think that the staff across NHS in
0:04:11 > 0:04:14England are afraid of us discussing this topic and weaponising it.
0:04:14 > 0:04:15They are in tears.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19They are exhausted.
0:04:19 > 0:04:20They are demoralised.
0:04:20 > 0:04:21They have never experienced a winter like
0:04:21 > 0:04:24this.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27Perhaps the Secretary of State could explain why his figures
0:04:27 > 0:04:31suggest 19 diverts and only two Trusts in serious problems, whereas
0:04:31 > 0:04:35what we are hearing, from the Nuffield Trust is 42 or 50
0:04:35 > 0:04:37Trusts who are diverting, which is a third.
0:04:37 > 0:04:47That means it is widespread.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03The minister seems to blame the public for overcrowding
0:05:03 > 0:05:05A departments when
0:05:05 > 0:05:08he himself knows the reason the public go to A is because they
0:05:08 > 0:05:11can't get to see their GP and social care is in crisis.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13Will he confirm that he has just announced another
0:05:13 > 0:05:14significant watering down of the four hour
0:05:14 > 0:05:15A target following the
0:05:15 > 0:05:19watering down by the Coalition in their first year in office in 2010?
0:05:19 > 0:05:21And what is he personally doing to address the chronic long-term
0:05:21 > 0:05:24underperformance of hospitals like that at Worcester where two people
0:05:24 > 0:05:26died on trolleys, and Plymouth, one of the hospitals
0:05:26 > 0:05:27that had to call in
0:05:27 > 0:05:29the Red Cross over the Christmas period?
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Let me just say to him I think probably because of the forum
0:05:32 > 0:05:35that we are in now he is misinterpreting what I have said.
0:05:35 > 0:05:36But it needs to be put right.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Far from watering down the target I
0:05:38 > 0:05:40have today recommitted the Government to that four hour target,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42in just the answer before he spoke.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46Maybe he was not listening but I said this was one of the best things
0:05:46 > 0:05:48about the NHS, that we have this four hour promise.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51But the public will go to the place where it is easier to
0:05:51 > 0:05:54get in front of a doctor quickly and if we don't
0:05:54 > 0:05:55recognise that there is an
0:05:55 > 0:05:57issue with the fact that a number of people
0:05:57 > 0:05:59who don't need to go to A
0:05:59 > 0:06:01are using those A, if we don't recognise that problem
0:06:01 > 0:06:04and address it then we won't make A better for his
0:06:04 > 0:06:05constituents and mine.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08In her first speech of the year, the Prime Minister Theresa May chose
0:06:08 > 0:06:10to focus on mental health services.
0:06:10 > 0:06:11She said mental health had been dangerously disregarded
0:06:11 > 0:06:14and announced plans to improve the capacity of schools to support
0:06:14 > 0:06:16children with mental health issues.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20Theresa May also said nearly ?70 million would be invested
0:06:20 > 0:06:22in online services which enable people to carry
0:06:22 > 0:06:24out symptom checks.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27And there will be a review on how to support people with mental
0:06:27 > 0:06:29illnesses in the workplace.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32During the Health Secretary's statement on the NHS, MPs
0:06:32 > 0:06:34had a chance to ask questions
0:06:34 > 0:06:39about the announcements on mental health services.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41We welcome measures to improve mental health
0:06:41 > 0:06:44services in this country as
0:06:44 > 0:06:47indeed we welcomed such announcements 12 months ago
0:06:47 > 0:06:50when the then Prime Minister made similar promises.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53But does the Secretary of State not agree that if this Prime Minister
0:06:53 > 0:06:57wants to shine a light on mental health provision she should aim her
0:06:57 > 0:07:01torch at the Government's record?
0:07:01 > 0:07:036,600 fewer nurses working in mental health.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07A reduction in mental health beds.
0:07:07 > 0:07:12400 fewer doctors working in mental health and perhaps most
0:07:12 > 0:07:15disgracefully of all the raiding of children's local mental health
0:07:15 > 0:07:21budgets in order to plug funding gaps in the wider NHS.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24I welcome the statement and also the Prime Minister's focus in
0:07:24 > 0:07:28the speech on mental health today.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31She spoke of holding the NHS leadership to account for the extra
0:07:31 > 0:07:33billion that we will be investing in mental health.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36Will the Secretary of State set out in further detail how
0:07:36 > 0:07:38CCGs will be held to account for ensuring
0:07:38 > 0:07:44that that money gets to the
0:07:44 > 0:07:47front line, so that we can deliver progress on parity of esteem?
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Yes, I can absolutely do that.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52And it is important because we have had a
0:07:52 > 0:07:55patchy record in the NHS of making sure that money promised for mental
0:07:55 > 0:07:57health reaches the front line.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01The way that we intend to address this
0:08:01 > 0:08:04is by independently compiling Ofsted style ratings for every CCG
0:08:04 > 0:08:06in the country that actually highlights where mental health
0:08:07 > 0:08:09provision is inadequate.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11Jeremy Hunt.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13Now, the Government has promised to change the law
0:08:13 > 0:08:16so that the perpetrators of domestic abuse lose the right
0:08:16 > 0:08:21to question former partners during proceedings in family courts.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25The practice has been banned in the criminal courts.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28A Labour MP Peter Kyle said allowing it to continue in family courts
0:08:28 > 0:08:36was wreaking untold devastation.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39I have spoken to numerous survivors of abuse whose accounts
0:08:39 > 0:08:40of torment under cross-examination, often
0:08:40 > 0:08:41by convicted rapists, in the
0:08:41 > 0:08:43family court are devastating to hear, but impossible
0:08:43 > 0:08:44for most of us to
0:08:44 > 0:08:45even imagine.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48I have spoken to a woman who was cross-examined by the
0:08:48 > 0:08:51man who was in jail for numerous counts of rape and abuse that left
0:08:51 > 0:08:53her unconscious and hospitalised.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55As a result of the family court process
0:08:55 > 0:08:57this extremely vulnerable woman needed weeks of medication and
0:08:57 > 0:09:02months of counselling to recover.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05She has now suffered this ordeal three times.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08I have spoken to the sister of a woman who was abused so
0:09:08 > 0:09:12greviously it resulted in her death.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15The convicted murderer then sued for custody of their child from
0:09:15 > 0:09:18prison where he was serving a life sentence for murder.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22He directly cross-examined the sister of the
0:09:22 > 0:09:25woman he murdered, even having the grotesque nerve to ask,
0:09:25 > 0:09:27what makes you think you can be a parent to my
0:09:27 > 0:09:32child?
0:09:32 > 0:09:34Mr Speaker, abuse is being continued, perpetuated, right under
0:09:34 > 0:09:38the noses of judges and police, the very institutions that should be
0:09:38 > 0:09:40protecting the vulnerable with every
0:09:40 > 0:09:46sinew of state power.
0:09:46 > 0:09:56The Government agrees that the law needs to be changed.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11I want to make family court process
0:10:11 > 0:10:13safer for victims so they can advocate effectively for themselves
0:10:13 > 0:10:15and for the safety of their children?
0:10:15 > 0:10:17This cannot happen while a significant number of domestic abuse
0:10:17 > 0:10:19victims face cross-examination by their abusers.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21The Lord Chancellor has requested urgent advice on how to
0:10:21 > 0:10:23put an end to this practice.
0:10:23 > 0:10:24This sort of cross examination is illegal
0:10:24 > 0:10:25in the criminal courts.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28I am determined to see it banned in family courts too.
0:10:28 > 0:10:29We are considering the most comprehensive
0:10:29 > 0:10:32and efficient way of making that happen, that will help family courts
0:10:32 > 0:10:34to concentrate on the key concerns
0:10:34 > 0:10:39for the family and always put the children's interests first.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42Some MPs said changes to legal aid meant that increasing numbers
0:10:42 > 0:10:52of people were forced to represent themselves.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55Members on both sides of the House have
0:10:55 > 0:10:57constituents who have been left devastated by the experience.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59That the Government is doing something to
0:10:59 > 0:11:00now end this practice is
0:11:00 > 0:11:01welcome.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04But this is a clear admission that the legal aid cuts
0:11:04 > 0:11:07have caused this situation.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10Victims of domestic violence struggle to provide
0:11:10 > 0:11:12evidence of their abuse because frequently they're not believed.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14And in some cases medical evidence is
0:11:14 > 0:11:15difficult to obtain.
0:11:15 > 0:11:16And the experience is made worse still
0:11:16 > 0:11:19because the abuser, also unable to get representation, is allowed to
0:11:19 > 0:11:20question them.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22Please look at rules in relation to legal
0:11:22 > 0:11:25aid because there is certainly strong anecdotal evidence from
0:11:25 > 0:11:27former colleagues of mine at the family bar and indeed
0:11:27 > 0:11:30the judiciary that there is a direct consequence
0:11:30 > 0:11:32and link between the rise in litigants in person
0:11:33 > 0:11:38and the changes to
0:11:38 > 0:11:40legal aid actually begun under the last Labour Government.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42But it's this link between litigants in
0:11:42 > 0:11:44person that is causing so many of this.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47If he would at least look at it it may provide some of
0:11:47 > 0:11:52the solutions.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55As my honourable friend has rightly said this is a
0:11:55 > 0:12:01long-standing issue but it's one which has become particularly
0:12:01 > 0:12:04urgent, and where the cries for help from the judges and others have
0:12:04 > 0:12:06become more urgent.
0:12:06 > 0:12:13That's why the Government is tackling this issue.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16As regards litigants in person it is necessary to find a way
0:12:16 > 0:12:17of stopping them using proceedings to continue
0:12:17 > 0:12:27the abuse, and that's what we are aiming to do.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30The Commons also paid tribute to Jill Saward,
0:12:30 > 0:12:32who died of a stroke last Thursday.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34She became a campaigner on behalf of sexual assault victims
0:12:34 > 0:12:36after being raped during a burglary at her father's vicarage
0:12:36 > 0:12:38in West London in 1986.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Her local MP said she was instrumental in securing
0:12:40 > 0:12:42a ban on defendants accused of rape from cross-examining
0:12:42 > 0:12:49victims in criminal courts.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52We were all shocked and saddened by the death of my
0:12:52 > 0:12:54constituent Jill Saward who campaigned tirelessly on behalf of
0:12:54 > 0:12:56victims of rape and sexual violence following her own
0:12:56 > 0:12:58horrific personal ordeal.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00The Minister called Jill Saward a wonderful person and said
0:13:00 > 0:13:02he wanted the law to change in family courts.
0:13:02 > 0:13:12You're watching Monday in Parliament with me, Kristiina Cooper.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15The government has been defeated in the House of Lords over plans
0:13:15 > 0:13:17to change the way England's universities are run, set out
0:13:18 > 0:13:19in the Higher Education Bill.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Peers from different parties combined to vote in favour
0:13:21 > 0:13:24of an opposition proposal for the bill to define the powers
0:13:25 > 0:13:27and aims of universities.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30The bill is designed to make it easier for new colleges to award
0:13:30 > 0:13:33degrees and will introduce a regulator called
0:13:33 > 0:13:35the Office for Students.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37A succession of peers praised the achievements
0:13:37 > 0:13:39of England's universities.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42They are not one size fits all.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44They are not beholden to the state.
0:13:44 > 0:13:45They are not looking forward to launching
0:13:45 > 0:13:47themselves on the FTSE 100.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50They are, to use a phrase of Alan Bennett's, just keeping on,
0:13:50 > 0:13:54keeping on, at a higher level in different but effective ways
0:13:54 > 0:13:57with fertile variations with their primary purpose,
0:13:57 > 0:13:59which is scholarship.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01So we must, from the start, and throughout the consideration
0:14:01 > 0:14:06of this bill, reassert and defend the prime values of our university
0:14:06 > 0:14:11sector and resist the government's controlling plans to seek central
0:14:11 > 0:14:18control via its own appointed, unhappily-named Office for Students.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21Could it be, my lords, that our universities have
0:14:21 > 0:14:23flourished and retained world rankings because they have
0:14:23 > 0:14:30not been subjected to government interference?
0:14:30 > 0:14:31Within education, schools and colleges have suffered
0:14:31 > 0:14:34from changes imposed by different governments and by the churn
0:14:34 > 0:14:36of ministers seeking to make their mark, regardless
0:14:36 > 0:14:39of advice from professionals in the sector.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Universities, for some years, had been relatively free of such
0:14:42 > 0:14:45assistance and they have flourished as a result.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47But one peer thought teaching standards in some
0:14:47 > 0:14:50universities was poor.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55It is clear that in arts subjects, too often, large classes are taught
0:14:55 > 0:14:59by Ph.Ds from overseas whose first language is not English and can't be
0:14:59 > 0:15:03understood and that, in the arts, there is a lack of proper framework,
0:15:03 > 0:15:08two or three essays per term for a student to prepare,
0:15:08 > 0:15:12otherwise to be left to read around in the library.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said he had a quote.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18Well, somebody who wrote to me, my lords, about this debate said,
0:15:18 > 0:15:23"I am effectively paying ?9,000 per annum for the use
0:15:23 > 0:15:26"of a good library."
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I think there are major shortcomings in accountability
0:15:28 > 0:15:29in our universities.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33There is a climate of lassitude in many of our universities
0:15:33 > 0:15:37on the path of academics in terms of their duties and obligations
0:15:37 > 0:15:40to their institution and to their students,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43and I think the government has quite correctly addressed
0:15:43 > 0:15:48that as an issue in putting this legislation before us.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Universities have changed the world because of what they are,
0:15:52 > 0:15:54because they are different and they are distinctive,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56and that is why dictatorial governments take them over
0:15:56 > 0:15:58and close them down.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01It's why people care so much about how government deals
0:16:01 > 0:16:04with them, and we should make it clear what we believe
0:16:04 > 0:16:07a university is.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10This is the first major bill on higher education for a generation.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13It's going to have far-reaching consequences.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16One of its aims, as we've heard, is to extend university
0:16:16 > 0:16:18title considerably.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22It's a matter of great concern to me that this piece of legislation has
0:16:22 > 0:16:27so far made no attempt to define what a university is or its role
0:16:27 > 0:16:31in society more widely and particularly what we expect
0:16:31 > 0:16:34these new universities to do.
0:16:34 > 0:16:41But a former minister thought defining a university wouldn't work.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44My personal view is that the way in which we should be protecting
0:16:44 > 0:16:48universities is by putting obligations on governments
0:16:48 > 0:16:51and regulators to respect the autonomy of universities,
0:16:51 > 0:16:58not trying to define universities and put obligations on them.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01It is ordinary for institutions to compete, not to be the best
0:17:01 > 0:17:06or to have the best offerings, but to make the greatest profit,
0:17:06 > 0:17:12to do it in the most cheap, cheerful and economical way and,
0:17:12 > 0:17:15as we move, as the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, said,
0:17:15 > 0:17:19through a technological revolution, of which books will be a series
0:17:19 > 0:17:24part, I think we need to think very hard about what is not a university.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27And that, my lords, might be rather easier than defining
0:17:27 > 0:17:31what is a university.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34The government spokesman said there were dangers in setting out
0:17:34 > 0:17:42a definition of a university that could be challenged in the courts.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45If a disgruntled business partner or rival institution brings a legal
0:17:45 > 0:17:47challenge and convinces a court that a university does not offer,
0:17:47 > 0:17:50for example, an extensive range of high-quality academic subjects,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52then is it no longer a university?
0:17:52 > 0:17:58Surely not.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00But that is what accepting this legislation, and we're not
0:18:00 > 0:18:02aware of this in itself, that has led to particular
0:18:02 > 0:18:03problems in the system.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06At the end of the debate, peers voted narrowly in favour
0:18:06 > 0:18:08of the proposal for the bill to contain a definition
0:18:09 > 0:18:12of a university.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14To the Communities Committee now, where Dame Louise Casey has said
0:18:14 > 0:18:16immigrants have to make more effort to fit in.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20The author of last month's Casey review on integration told MPs that
0:18:20 > 0:18:22Britain needed to be less shy about telling immigrants
0:18:22 > 0:18:25what was expected from them.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29A Labour MP asked her how she defined integration.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Do you consider it to be a two-way process or do you feel that some
0:18:32 > 0:18:34groups need to make more effort than others?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36I didn't realise I was heading into these controversial
0:18:36 > 0:18:39territories so early but, in terms of the two-way street, no,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42I don't think it's a two-way street.
0:18:42 > 0:18:44I think that's a sound bite that people like to say,
0:18:44 > 0:18:46which is integration is a two-way street.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49I would say, if we stick with the road analogy,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52that I think integration is more like you've got a bloody big
0:18:52 > 0:18:54motorway and you have a slip road of people coming
0:18:54 > 0:18:57in from the outside, and what you need to do
0:18:57 > 0:19:03is people in the middle, in the motorway, need to accommodate
0:19:03 > 0:19:06and be gentle and kind to people coming in from the outside lane,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09but we are all in the same direction and we are all heading
0:19:09 > 0:19:10in the same direction.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13I think it gets into this place where we have this idea that
0:19:13 > 0:19:14it's a two-way street.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16To some degree, it's a two-way street but,
0:19:16 > 0:19:18to some degree, it is not.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21There is more give on one side and more take on the other,
0:19:21 > 0:19:23and I think that's where we have successively made a mistake,
0:19:23 > 0:19:25which is we've not been honest about that.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28And I think that's partly what I'm trying the terms of leadership,
0:19:28 > 0:19:31which is I understand what people are saying when they say
0:19:31 > 0:19:33integration's a two-way street, of course it is, but only
0:19:33 > 0:19:34to some degree.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36So the majority doesn't have to change?
0:19:36 > 0:19:39The majority doesn't have to adjust very much?
0:19:39 > 0:19:42What you'll note I said is that I think the people in the middle,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45the people in the motorway, of course they have to adjust
0:19:45 > 0:19:52a little bit, but the general thing moves in the same direction.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55She was also asked about the so-called Trojan Horse scandal.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57The allegation - that a group of extremist Muslims
0:19:57 > 0:20:02was taking control of some schools in Birmingham.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04I'm just wondering, in terms of the Trojan Horse scandal,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07whether or not he think that's a tip of the iceberg
0:20:07 > 0:20:08or a one-off?
0:20:08 > 0:20:09In terms of...
0:20:09 > 0:20:12We are very honest in their review about this, which is in terms
0:20:12 > 0:20:15of some of the things that we are seeing during what's
0:20:15 > 0:20:18called the Trojan Horse, we didn't have to find it very
0:20:18 > 0:20:26difficult to find things like segregation of girls, some
0:20:26 > 0:20:30of the sort of what I would describe as anti-equal opportunities
0:20:30 > 0:20:34or antiliberal values.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I again think that, that there's too much...
0:20:37 > 0:20:39Because there are court cases and various things going on,
0:20:39 > 0:20:45I don't want to go into too much detail over the actual Trojan Horse.
0:20:45 > 0:20:46But is it happening elsewhere?
0:20:46 > 0:20:48But, yes, it's happening elsewhere.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51One idea in the Casey review was for immigrants to swear
0:20:51 > 0:20:53an integration oath.
0:20:53 > 0:21:01Dame Louise said symbolic acts could have a powerful impact.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04The rights and wrongs of immigration are for other people to judge
0:21:04 > 0:21:07but what is clear is that we ought to be more on integration,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10we should have been and we need to be and again, one
0:21:10 > 0:21:11of those moments...
0:21:11 > 0:21:14In fact, I hope the chairman won't mind, but we were jointly
0:21:14 > 0:21:18in a meeting in your constituency were actually I felt,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21in one of those meetings, we were kind of explaining the rules
0:21:21 > 0:21:25of the game to some of the people that were at that meeting
0:21:25 > 0:21:28from Eastern Europe, who had never really been engaged
0:21:28 > 0:21:32with that way before.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34It's the local MP, so they got a different...
0:21:34 > 0:21:35They had me.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38But I thought it was interesting that the said that nobody has
0:21:38 > 0:21:40talked to them about...
0:21:40 > 0:21:42They arrived, they didn't get jobs when they thought
0:21:42 > 0:21:44they were getting jobs, they hadn't been treated that
0:21:44 > 0:21:47well, as it happens, and on we go from there.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50But also, nobody had talked to them about our way of life here,
0:21:50 > 0:21:52about when to put rubbish out.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Let's take it as a real detail that would be a real issue
0:21:55 > 0:21:56for a local authority.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59You put rubbish out on the wrong day, it costs a lot of money.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02So there are basics that we hadn't even run through.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Nobody had told them to queue, nobody had told them to be nice,
0:22:05 > 0:22:06all those sorts of things.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09We hadn't been on it and I think, as part of the package,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11that would be no bad thing.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15We had a sort of joke in the review that we thought it was quite British
0:22:15 > 0:22:18to be too polite to tell people what we expected them to do
0:22:18 > 0:22:21but to then get cross when they didn't do it!
0:22:21 > 0:22:22Yeah, exactly.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25Before we go, time to catch up with the latest news on Brexit.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28In a TV interview on Sunday, the Prime Minister, Theresa May,
0:22:28 > 0:22:32said the UK would not keep bits of membership.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37Some Brexit watchers took that to mean that the UK would not try
0:22:37 > 0:22:38and stay in the single market.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41In the Lords, there were some suggestions on how to
0:22:41 > 0:22:43approach the negotiations.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47We all try to understand why the government wishes to keep
0:22:47 > 0:22:52a close hand on its negotiating objectives with Europe.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56We must remain very hush-hush about this in case Johnny Foreigner
0:22:56 > 0:22:58understands what we are up to.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01But would the noble Lord, the Minister, like to hazard a guess
0:23:01 > 0:23:05on the negotiating objectives of the 27 countries,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07the European Commission and the European Parliament?
0:23:07 > 0:23:13Surely, that's not a matter on which we cannot comment.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16It's very tempting, my lords!
0:23:16 > 0:23:19Not on my first time back, I think.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22All I would say, in seriousness, the noble Lord makes
0:23:22 > 0:23:23a very good point.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25And what I would say on reflection of his question,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28which is a very fair one, is I would like to think
0:23:28 > 0:23:30that our European partners would see that a smooth,
0:23:30 > 0:23:35orderly and timely Brexit is as much in their interests as it is in ours.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Could the noble Lord, the Minister, clarify whether the government
0:23:37 > 0:23:41actually thinks it's important that we are within the single
0:23:41 > 0:23:45market, not just trading with the single market?
0:23:45 > 0:23:48Could he also explained to us precisely by the well-being
0:23:48 > 0:23:51of the country is being held hostage to squabbles within
0:23:51 > 0:23:55the Conservative Party and Cabinet?
0:23:55 > 0:23:57I totally dispute the second part of the noble Baroness'
0:23:57 > 0:23:59question, I'm sorry to say!
0:23:59 > 0:24:01I really can't agree with that at all.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04And as regards the single market, my right honourable friend,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07the Prime Minister, set out our thinking on this
0:24:07 > 0:24:13yesterday and, as she said, what we are looking for here
0:24:13 > 0:24:15is the best possible deal for trading with and operating
0:24:15 > 0:24:18within the single European market, and we want that prosperity
0:24:18 > 0:24:23for all businesses.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25Thank you, my lords.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Since the EU does so much better out of our membership of the EU
0:24:29 > 0:24:33than we do in pretty well every sphere of our national life,
0:24:33 > 0:24:36trade and job security, mutual residence, agriculture,
0:24:36 > 0:24:42fish, the single market and, not to mention, the ?10 billion
0:24:42 > 0:24:46in cash we give them every year, why don't we just tell them
0:24:46 > 0:24:50that we are taking back our law and our borders and that we will be
0:24:50 > 0:24:53reasonably generous about the rest of it if they behave
0:24:53 > 0:24:55themselves and agree?
0:24:55 > 0:24:59My lords, wouldn't that be a nice clean Brexit and it needn't
0:24:59 > 0:25:02take very long at all?
0:25:02 > 0:25:05The noble Lord has a very unique way of putting things,
0:25:05 > 0:25:08which I note but I don't necessarily think the government would adopt
0:25:08 > 0:25:10quite that phraseology.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14It is clear, the government has set out at numerous occasions over
0:25:14 > 0:25:16the last few months, our intention to take
0:25:16 > 0:25:19control over our borders, our money and our laws whilst
0:25:19 > 0:25:24achieving the best possible access for businesses in the single market.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27So I think that that is the position, my lords.
0:25:27 > 0:25:32The first and rather light-hearted discussion about Brexit of 2017.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34Well, that's it from Monday in Parliament.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37Alicia McCarthy will be here for the rest of the week but,
0:25:37 > 0:25:43from me, Kristiina Cooper, goodbye.