:00:03. > :00:13.honestly what went on that needs to be addressed. That is the cultural
:00:13. > :00:15.
:00:15. > :00:19.issue, let's look at the economic issue, economic But tonight on
:00:19. > :00:24.Newsnight Scotland, wide as it seemed that all the writers, artists
:00:24. > :00:30.and musicians are backing independence? I believe that
:00:30. > :00:40.independence can only add to our potential. Remember how many of them
:00:40. > :00:41.
:00:41. > :00:45.were at the Yes Scotland launched? And some prisoners prepare to take
:00:45. > :00:51.their case for conjugal rights all the way to stress port. We ask
:00:51. > :00:55.should prisoners' partners be allowed to visit for sex? We are
:00:55. > :00:59.told Alex Salmond wants the greatest literary talents to help draft the
:00:59. > :01:05.Scottish Government's vision of independence, with William
:01:05. > :01:08.McIlvanney apparently the first choice of the First Minister. There
:01:08. > :01:12.is no shortage of artistic types backing independence who might be
:01:12. > :01:19.willing to help with the White Paper, but why are there so few
:01:19. > :01:28.creatives who back the union? Could that be about to change? Me last
:01:28. > :01:31.year -- me last year and the launch of the Yes Scotland campaign. There
:01:31. > :01:36.were plenty of high-profile politicians at the cinema where it
:01:36. > :01:42.was launched, but also having their say was a host of well-known actors,
:01:42. > :01:51.musicians and figures from the arts. I remember the night I became a
:01:51. > :02:01.nationalist. I was 18 years old, it was the night of the 1992 election.
:02:01. > :02:06.
:02:06. > :02:09.I think it can only add to our... course, the idea of the arts
:02:09. > :02:17.community getting on board with political campaigns has been going
:02:17. > :02:24.on for decades. In the mid-80s a group of high-profile musicians,
:02:24. > :02:34.including Paul Weller and Billy Bragg, formed Red Wedge, An
:02:34. > :02:37.
:02:37. > :02:44.Anti-thatcher Project That Sought To Boost the Labour Party. Read Wedge
:02:44. > :02:54.had limited success. The Conservative election win in
:02:54. > :02:56.
:02:56. > :03:01.1987... It doesn't need to be the case that you need to have a
:03:01. > :03:07.well-known person put the case for us. It doesn't say a lot about the
:03:08. > :03:14.politicians themselves, who are just great, bland, dreadful, there isn't
:03:14. > :03:19.an orator among them. And when artists get involved in political
:03:19. > :03:23.campaigns, it doesn't always go to plan. Robbie Coltrane was signed up
:03:23. > :03:28.to Labour during the campaign for Scottish devolution, but things went
:03:28. > :03:33.awry for the party when he said this. I think I would eventually
:03:33. > :03:41.like to see independence, but only an independent Labour Scotland. I
:03:41. > :03:43.think this is the way to go about it. So is it a bad idea for creative
:03:44. > :03:51.individuals to get involved in campaigning or should the warning
:03:51. > :03:54.light instead of for the politicians? I would like to think
:03:54. > :04:00.that performers who have passion will upset the apple cart a bit,
:04:00. > :04:04.they showed, and if you are going to play with fire, if you're going to
:04:04. > :04:14.bring someone on and expect them to be your poodle, like you're in turn
:04:14. > :04:17.or second in the party, then you are asking for trouble. I hope you are.
:04:17. > :04:23.It certainly seems from events like these that artistic types have come
:04:23. > :04:29.out in force for independence. If there is a similar level of support,
:04:29. > :04:39.the prounion side have seemed reluctant to get involved so far.
:04:39. > :04:39.
:04:39. > :04:44.Why is that and could it be about to change? Thank you very much.I'm
:04:44. > :04:47.joined now by Alan Bissett, the novelist, playwright and performer
:04:47. > :04:54.who is representing the pro-independence artists movement
:04:54. > :04:59.national collective. And by the classical composer Eddie McGuire,
:04:59. > :05:04.who supports the union and is also a member of the Whistlebinkies. White
:05:04. > :05:12.do each of you support -- why do each of you support your political
:05:12. > :05:15.site? Alan, why do you think independence will help the artist?
:05:15. > :05:22.There is a real groundswell of cultural energy happening in
:05:22. > :05:26.Scotland, the rediscovering of old Scottish traditions, reimagining
:05:26. > :05:32.them and realising that faced with the biggest historical event they
:05:32. > :05:37.will ever see, one of the biggest events Scotland will ever see, they
:05:37. > :05:44.are excited and want to engage with it. Eddie, why do you still support
:05:44. > :05:51.the union? I see Scottish traditions as part of a British family of
:05:51. > :05:58.similar traditions. You have Northumberland bagpipes, singing in
:05:58. > :06:03.Dorset, Scottish music and theatre all part of a fabric of British
:06:03. > :06:09.culture. My musicians union is celebrating its 120th anniversary.
:06:09. > :06:14.It was founded in Manchester, the second branch was in Glasgow and the
:06:14. > :06:21.third was Liverpool. These unions build up the fabric of what you call
:06:21. > :06:24.written and to say that we will split working people's ability to
:06:24. > :06:29.resist the onslaught of impoverishment in this capitalist
:06:29. > :06:38.crisis is, to me, a bit of a betrayal. That said, why do you
:06:38. > :06:41.think so many more artists are coming out for Alan's cause? I think
:06:41. > :06:47.it is mischiefmaking and inaccurate writing in the feature columns in
:06:47. > :06:52.the Scotsman and other papers to say that most artists support
:06:52. > :06:56.independence because, from my point of view, chair of the musicians
:06:56. > :07:02.union, I have my ear to the ground and I know a lot of people support
:07:02. > :07:09.British unity and that the family of music making and theatre making in
:07:09. > :07:13.Britain, and that is the strong opinion that I've got. Allen, a bit
:07:13. > :07:19.of mischiefmaking going on here or is Yes Scotland just better at
:07:19. > :07:24.putting these people forward? think good art is all about
:07:24. > :07:28.mischiefmaking, to be honest, and I think a lot of the artists in
:07:28. > :07:34.Scotland sense that this is a revolution. We are throwing off the
:07:34. > :07:37.old order, the failed state that doesn't work for the people of
:07:37. > :07:46.Scotland, that barely works for the people of England, and that there
:07:47. > :07:49.are exciting possibilities on the other side of it. In the National
:07:49. > :07:54.Collective we are trying to invest hope in the future of Scotland
:07:54. > :07:59.rather than fear that things will fall apart if Scotland becomes
:07:59. > :08:06.independent. We don't believe that, we think there are numerous
:08:06. > :08:11.narratives that we can create. you think it is more natural for
:08:11. > :08:17.artists to be radical, to go against the grain, to go against what the
:08:17. > :08:23.majority of people think? Yes, I do. If you try to imagine what it was
:08:23. > :08:29.like living in London in 1966, Revolver by the Beatles is in the
:08:29. > :08:35.charts and there is this groundswell, this challenge to the
:08:35. > :08:40.establishment. If you think what it will be like in Scotland in August
:08:40. > :08:50.2014 just before the referendum, that excitement will be rising. 2014
:08:50. > :08:57.it could be Scotland's 1966. The only way to transform Britain is
:08:57. > :09:04.with United working people, United working class people, and anything
:09:04. > :09:11.that splits that ability to resist capitalism in crisis is a betrayal.
:09:11. > :09:19.I accuse the Nationalists, what I would call petty separatists, of
:09:19. > :09:26.splitting the working class and that is a serious accusation. How do you
:09:26. > :09:30.answer that. We are both socialists and what we are disagreeing on is
:09:30. > :09:35.strategy. I think that a progressive Scotland that is protecting the most
:09:35. > :09:38.vulnerable and the NHS, all the things we hold dear, the welfare
:09:38. > :09:43.state, the coalition in Westminster are trying to take from us, that
:09:43. > :09:47.Labour won't do anything about. That when we can show the people of
:09:47. > :09:54.England that we are protecting these things and that will then lead them
:09:54. > :09:59.to ask why they can't do it. The idea there can be no unity among the
:09:59. > :10:04.working class doesn't bear scrutiny. We can have solidarity with workers
:10:05. > :10:10.in France and Germany and the United States. Talking about strategy, you
:10:10. > :10:16.were talking about about this hidden pool of artist who support the
:10:16. > :10:20.union. What might the campaign co-to -- do to harness that. Because I was
:10:20. > :10:24.annoyed by what I regarded as untrue comment about the majority
:10:24. > :10:31.supporting independence. I went to Better Together and said you must
:10:31. > :10:36.ask artist who support unity unity stand up and be counted. I know
:10:36. > :10:40.people in the music world who will do that and in the coming month,
:10:40. > :10:45.leading up to the Edinburgh Festival, we are going to prepare a
:10:45. > :10:50.show and a debate that shows that we have the ability to do that.
:10:50. > :10:55.special pro-union show. Alan, hearing that, do you think that
:10:55. > :11:01.these political factions developing in the arts world, over a political
:11:01. > :11:05.row, is it a good thing? Yes, it is healthy. Art is not about
:11:05. > :11:11.certainties. And even within the independence movement, a lot of the
:11:11. > :11:17.artists don't feel the same way. It is about exploring the issues. I
:11:17. > :11:21.welcome this come campaign. I must give a warning, look at Greece and
:11:21. > :11:25.how art has been devastated in Greece and the orchestras have been
:11:25. > :11:30.sacked in Greece. The aim of the nationalist is to join the euro and
:11:30. > :11:36.lead us into the failed projects of the European Union. Well we will
:11:36. > :11:40.have to lead it there. Alan says it is not true. Very interesting to
:11:40. > :11:44.talk to you both. Thank you. Now, the Scottish Parliament voted
:11:44. > :11:47.resoundingly a month ago to reject the idea that prisoners should get a
:11:47. > :11:50.vote, even though that's the norm in many European countries. The next
:11:50. > :11:59.attempt to secure additional rights for prisoners is likely to cause
:11:59. > :12:02.even more controversy - conjugal rights for some prisoners. There's
:12:02. > :12:05.an argument that there's a human right for a prisoner to have a
:12:05. > :12:10.family, or more specifically to start a family, while still in
:12:10. > :12:14.custody. It's never been allowed in the UK, but it's now to be tested in
:12:14. > :12:18.court in Scotland, in a specific case. A convicted murderer, Kevin
:12:18. > :12:24.Gibson, serving 15 years, is asking the courts to allow him to exercise
:12:24. > :12:29.his right to start a family with his wife. The case is at an early stage
:12:29. > :12:33.so far, but it's re-opened a bunch of moral questions. If we seek
:12:33. > :12:37.guidance elsewhere, much of the rest of the world sees the point of a
:12:37. > :12:41.family visits for prisoners. Details vary, but many countries, or parts
:12:41. > :12:47.of them, allow some form of private family visiting, either in part of
:12:47. > :12:53.the prison, or at home. Cultures vary too. Some countries include gay
:12:53. > :12:57.couples, others accommodate the possibility of multiple wives. The
:12:57. > :13:00.arguments for family visiting are in two parts. One is the simple case
:13:00. > :13:07.that a prison sentence deprives a person of liberty, but does not
:13:07. > :13:09.explicitly remove other human rights. The other argument is that
:13:09. > :13:13.enforced physical estrangement will tend to lead to relationship
:13:13. > :13:19.breakdowns and that in turn is known to increase the chances that a
:13:19. > :13:22.prisoner will re-offend. The arguments against are simpler - many
:13:22. > :13:27.people think prison is largely designed as punishment and as a
:13:27. > :13:30.disincentive to commit crime. The easier life is perceived to be for
:13:30. > :13:33.the prisoner, the less effective the process. For most politicians in
:13:33. > :13:40.this country, as with the voting issue, there's little to be gained
:13:40. > :13:43.by fighting what you think is the popular will. I'm now joined by
:13:43. > :13:46.Nancy Loucks, a visiting professor in Humanities and Social Sciences at
:13:46. > :13:56.Strathclyde University and Chief Executive of the organisation
:13:56. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:04.Families Outside. First, why are you in favour of conjugal right for
:14:04. > :14:11.prisoners. Many see prisoners as having given up their rights.
:14:11. > :14:16.have to bear in mind about half of prisoners lose family contact, but
:14:17. > :14:21.we know re-offending is reduced up to six times for prisoners who keep
:14:21. > :14:26.up family contact. So that is an important part of things. Family
:14:26. > :14:31.ties make sure people have a place to stay when they're released and
:14:31. > :14:37.these things that we know reduce the likelihood of re-offending. What
:14:37. > :14:45.you're talking about is more structured family visits and time
:14:45. > :14:49.spent together? Yes in terms of private family visits, conjugal
:14:49. > :14:53.visit might be part of that, but we want thing like children staying the
:14:53. > :14:56.night with their parents. Parents coming in to visit younger people
:14:57. > :15:01.who might be in prison. That would be involving something like what you
:15:01. > :15:06.see in places like France and Spain, where they have a system of weekend
:15:06. > :15:12.visits where people can return to a normal family environment. Instead
:15:12. > :15:17.of a two hour conjugal visit that you would see in Scandinavia.
:15:17. > :15:21.does it help cut re-offending so much? Some people might be in jail
:15:22. > :15:26.for particularly violent crimes, why does that family contact help to
:15:26. > :15:30.reduce re-offending? As I said, it is make sure that people have the
:15:30. > :15:35.links back into the community and something to go straight for I
:15:35. > :15:41.suppose. The question as well is whether you want to see a prison in
:15:41. > :15:45.which return to society starts from the day they go into problem problem
:15:45. > :15:49.-- into prison, or from the day they are released. This organisation has
:15:49. > :15:54.done as much as it can to make sure people are ready to be released.
:15:54. > :15:58.You're talking about how this could punish the family who are left
:15:58. > :16:03.outside, but many of these prisoners have denied other families the
:16:03. > :16:06.right-to-life haven't they? Yes, that is the case in many types of
:16:06. > :16:09.offences. But the families of prisoners haven't committed an
:16:10. > :16:13.offence. This choice has been taken from them. And they have the right
:16:13. > :16:17.to family life and their children have the right to family life and it
:16:17. > :16:22.is trying to make sure that is taken into account. As we saw, this
:16:22. > :16:28.happens in many other countries, but in the UK and Ireland it is not part
:16:28. > :16:32.of the culture? Even the Republic of Ireland has some provision for
:16:32. > :16:39.private visits with children able to stay over night with their mups. The
:16:39. > :16:43.UK -- with their mums. The UK and Turkey are the only country in
:16:43. > :16:50.Europe who don't. Even countries like India have provision for
:16:50. > :16:55.private visits. Hearing how the UK is quite isolated, how successful do
:16:55. > :17:04.you think this legal action could be? It hasn't opinion successful in
:17:04. > :17:09.the past in -- it hasn't been successful in the past in Europe. It
:17:09. > :17:12.could be a small part of the pack panelling of support. - package of
:17:12. > :17:17.support. There is a sense that the public have to back the justice
:17:17. > :17:21.system and there does not seem to be much public appetite for this.
:17:21. > :17:27.and there is not even in countries where it is introduced, until people
:17:27. > :17:35.get used to the idea. That happened in Canada. They were opposed to
:17:35. > :17:39.family visits until they started to use them. Thank you. Now a quick
:17:39. > :17:46.look at tomorrow's front-pages. On the Scotsman, Alex Salmond looks to
:17:46. > :17:53.Isle of Man as skurn si mod -- currency model. And in the Guardian,
:17:53. > :18:03.Tories go level with Labour as UKIP slumps. That is all we have time for
:18:03. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:18.tonight. Gordon is back tomorrow. come for England and Wales. For
:18:18. > :18:23.Northern Ireland, more cloud, cloud across western Scotland bring some
:18:23. > :18:30.patchy rain. In the far north-east through the middle part of the day
:18:31. > :18:34.there could be an isolated thunder storm. But plenty of sunshine in
:18:34. > :18:41.eastern Scotland and that could see temperatures into the mid 20s. Noer
:18:41. > :18:46.northern England, a lot of sunshine and temperatures in the mid 20s and
:18:46. > :18:51.we hot things up further south. Always fresher at the costs. --
:18:51. > :18:57.coasts. But in the Midlands, we are talking about the high 20s and
:18:57. > :19:03.perhaps even 32 Celsius. Cooler around the coasts to the south-west,
:19:03. > :19:07.because of a sea breeze and we may just have some low cloud and mist
:19:07. > :19:13.and fog. In the middle of week the sunshine continues to burn down on
:19:13. > :19:16.England and Wales and if anything it could be a hotter day still. In
:19:16. > :19:26.Scotland and Northern Ireland we keep some cloud for the middle of
:19:26. > :19:26.