:00:13. > :00:17.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, after a week of controversy, Nick
:00:17. > :00:20.Clegg meets Alex Salmond and offers him a couple of hundred million
:00:20. > :00:23.pounds. The Secretary of State tells this programme he still
:00:23. > :00:29.thinks there should be two referendums for Scotland to become
:00:29. > :00:31.independent. And the controversial architect of
:00:31. > :00:35.Glasgow's new transport museum visits her creation and talks of
:00:35. > :00:39.ships, space and scepticism. After a week of controversy,
:00:39. > :00:43.something actually happens. Nick Clegg visited Edinburgh today and
:00:43. > :00:46.told Alex Salmond he could borrow �200 million this year to help
:00:46. > :00:49.build a new Forth Road Bridge. It will be the first and the Scottish
:00:49. > :00:52.government has been allowed to run up dead. Meanwhile, the Secretary
:00:52. > :00:56.of State of Scotland has told his programme he sticks by his view
:00:56. > :01:03.that there would need to be two referendums for Scotland to become
:01:03. > :01:08.independent. # Food, glorious food.
:01:08. > :01:14.Alex Salmond does not play the role of supplicant well, and there's not
:01:14. > :01:19.much of the starving Oliver about him. He went to London with his
:01:19. > :01:23.subservient status well sheltered, but he cannot hide the facts. Even
:01:23. > :01:29.with a substantial mandate in his pocket, he has to beg for
:01:29. > :01:34.concessions. This week, he asked the Prime Minister, please, sir,
:01:34. > :01:39.can I have some more... Borrowing rights, up to �5 billion? And
:01:39. > :01:44.powers over the Crown Estate, corporation tax, excise duty,
:01:44. > :01:52.broadcasting and a bigger say in Europe? And he came away empty
:01:52. > :01:59.handed. He had a second go when Nick Clegg came to Edinburgh, and
:01:59. > :02:04.he did drop a little something in the SNP poll. We want to get going
:02:04. > :02:07.as quickly as possible. People want to see this new Forth Bridge being
:02:07. > :02:10.built as quickly as possible. That is why we are saying that instead
:02:10. > :02:16.of waiting for the full borrowing powers in several years' time,
:02:16. > :02:20.let's find a way of getting access to the money earlier on this year
:02:20. > :02:26.so that we can create the jobs and build the bridge that people want
:02:26. > :02:30.to see. How much? We will publish the details in the coming days and
:02:30. > :02:35.weeks, but of course it has to be on a sufficient scale to get big
:02:35. > :02:41.projects like the new Forth Bridge up and running. Nick Clegg,
:02:41. > :02:45.speaking to Raymond Buchanan. It is a month since the Holyrood election,
:02:45. > :02:50.and the manoeuvring us are under way. London cannot reject Mr
:02:50. > :02:54.Salmond's demands out of hand, for fear of provoking the Scots. Nor
:02:54. > :02:58.can they caved in to the early and face humiliation, not least at the
:02:58. > :03:03.hands of their own backbenchers. But neither can Mr Salmond press
:03:03. > :03:06.too hard and be left humbled by failure to deliver, although he
:03:06. > :03:12.will not want all his wish-list ticked off, because that might
:03:13. > :03:17.begin to satisfy the Scots. So each side is playing a longer game. Mr
:03:17. > :03:22.Salmond will build up the case for the referendum and not commit to
:03:22. > :03:25.too much detail. That can be contradicted and disparaged. He is
:03:26. > :03:31.bolstered by today's Herald opinion poll, putting support for
:03:31. > :03:36.independence up six points at 37%, although that is where it stood in
:03:36. > :03:41.2009. Then, Mr Salmond is undoubtedly the leader for
:03:41. > :03:45.independence. But who is the leader against? Logically, it would be
:03:45. > :03:48.either the Secretary of State for Scotland, or he would be a co-
:03:49. > :03:58.leader. It has become a matter of incontrovertible fact that Michael
:03:59. > :04:00.
:04:00. > :04:03.Moore is leader only of the tomb and Scotland Office team. I met the
:04:03. > :04:13.Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday, and I am meeting him
:04:13. > :04:13.
:04:13. > :04:17.again today. Now, this is part of minute two meeting strategy. If I
:04:17. > :04:25.do not get the answer I want in the first meeting, I will organise
:04:25. > :04:28.another one! It will need Serpentine negotiation to produce a
:04:28. > :04:31.united unionist front, and almost certainly a many-headed leadership.
:04:31. > :04:36.And in what could become a highly new ones to debate, there is
:04:36. > :04:39.another factor. The Labour- supporting Daily Record is shedding
:04:39. > :04:44.half its journalists. It stuck doggedly to the party line
:04:44. > :04:48.throughout the election. Willetts anti-nationalist message now be
:04:48. > :04:53.diluted? The only thing we can be sure of is that Mr Salmond will not
:04:53. > :04:56.stop asking. The Secretary of State for Scotland,
:04:56. > :05:00.Michael Moore, has been busy, but earlier this evening he came into
:05:00. > :05:06.our Selkirk studio. I asked him to outline his decision to allow the
:05:06. > :05:11.Scottish government to borrow money this year. We have responded to the
:05:11. > :05:14.representations we had from the committee in the last Scottish
:05:14. > :05:19.Parliament and from the Scottish government that they would like to
:05:19. > :05:23.get access to finance before the borrowing powers are introduced as
:05:23. > :05:29.set out in the bill. We had already said we would do that a couple of
:05:29. > :05:31.years ahead of the formal powers being available in 2015. But
:05:31. > :05:35.recognising that this that Government wants to get on with
:05:35. > :05:42.creating the new Forth crossing, we agreed to bring forward that force
:05:42. > :05:48.and -- facility to this year. the borrowing comes from where?
:05:48. > :05:54.This sounds like a local authority, the Scottish government? We will
:05:54. > :05:59.announce the details over the course of the next week. We will be
:05:59. > :06:03.making formal presentations to Parliament. But this will enable us
:06:03. > :06:09.to ensure that the Scottish government gets another tool to add
:06:09. > :06:12.to the many ways it can help boost Scotland's economy. We are in
:06:13. > :06:19.tricky economic times and this is an important project. We are
:06:19. > :06:23.pleased that we can help get at going forward by bringing the money
:06:24. > :06:27.forward and getting the work under way. And what about Alex Salmond's
:06:27. > :06:35.demand that the eventual amount he should be able to borrow should be
:06:35. > :06:42.increased to �5 billion? details of how much we will be
:06:42. > :06:46.doing, we will announce in due course. We have said to the First
:06:46. > :06:50.Minister that the issue for the country as a whole is the tight
:06:50. > :06:56.economic situation we are in and the borrowing limits we have had to
:06:56. > :07:03.set for the UK as a whole. We are not able simply to increase the
:07:03. > :07:07.amounts in the way he and others have requested. But in the command
:07:07. > :07:11.paper and all the public announcements previously, we have
:07:11. > :07:17.said that we are putting a base amount into the legislation. It is
:07:17. > :07:25.a flaw which may vary in the future, but which will never be below the
:07:25. > :07:29.�2.2 billion we have announced. you are saying you will not
:07:29. > :07:33.increase to the �5 billion at the moment that Alex Salmond wants
:07:33. > :07:37.because you believe the economic situation will not allow you to,
:07:37. > :07:45.but sometime in the future, when the economy recovers, that amount
:07:45. > :07:49.might be increased? That has been clear since the outset. I am sure I
:07:49. > :07:56.will repeat that again in the Commons in the next couple of weeks.
:07:56. > :08:02.We have to make sure we live within what we can afford. What is your
:08:02. > :08:06.current position on how many referendums there should be? Gordon,
:08:06. > :08:12.I do not think we should be having a referendum at all, because I want
:08:12. > :08:16.to see Scotland continue to be part of the UK. I have said that if we
:08:16. > :08:21.get the First Minister coming forward with his proposals for a
:08:21. > :08:26.referendum, I and my colleagues will campaign to ensure that
:08:26. > :08:30.Scotland stays within the UK. We have a good case for that. The
:08:30. > :08:34.First Minister has not set out what kind of independence he wants or
:08:35. > :08:39.what the costs will be. We are already seeing the concerns of
:08:39. > :08:44.businesses and other groups about the uncertainty this is creating.
:08:44. > :08:48.All the other questions are, frankly, hypothetical. The
:08:48. > :08:54.important thing at the moment is to ensure that we get new powers to
:08:54. > :08:59.the Scottish parliament, that we get support to the Scottish economy.
:08:59. > :09:02.But as you know, you said on Monday that if the Scottish people voted
:09:02. > :09:07.in an advisory referendum organised by the Scottish government for
:09:07. > :09:11.independence, there would have to be a second referendum before
:09:11. > :09:17.Scotland could be independent. Is that still your opinion, which you
:09:17. > :09:21.clearly expressed on Monday? What I clearly expressed on Monday was the
:09:21. > :09:27.fact that I do not want to see the uncertainty of independence
:09:27. > :09:33.cladding the need for us to get over the immediate hurdles of the
:09:33. > :09:38.economy and to ensure we get the Scotland Bill through. We can put
:09:38. > :09:41.about that in a minute, but let me read to you what you said. You said
:09:41. > :09:44."if we have an advisory referendum set up by the Scottish government,
:09:45. > :09:48.there is a strong likelihood, and this certainly my personal view
:09:48. > :09:54.that you would need a second referendum on the formalities of
:09:54. > :10:01.agreeing what is being sorted out by the Government's". Is that still
:10:01. > :10:07.your view? You will notice the conditionality I put into that,
:10:07. > :10:11.Gordon. Others say that is a fair and -- otherwise, that is a fair
:10:11. > :10:15.representation. I stand by that, but I want to be clear that as a
:10:15. > :10:25.government and as an individual, I am concerned first and foremost
:10:25. > :10:27.
:10:27. > :10:31.about the economy of Scotland for a With respect, the rest of this is
:10:31. > :10:34.hypothetical. It is a legitimate debate, but it is not what as
:10:34. > :10:44.Secretary of State for Scotland or the government as a whole is
:10:44. > :10:49.
:10:49. > :10:58.focused on. It was you who said it, The problem is, David Cameron's
:10:58. > :11:02.point of view seems to be opposite two years. Not at all. He and the
:11:02. > :11:07.Deputy Prime Minister and others have accentuated what I have been
:11:07. > :11:11.saying that. We're talking about a hypothetical situation that is
:11:11. > :11:16.dependent on the First Minister coming forward with their proposals
:11:16. > :11:22.for an independent referendums. We do not know what form the question
:11:22. > :11:30.will take. We do not know what costs are associated with it. As an
:11:30. > :11:35.Nick Clegg was saying in Edinburgh today, there is no middle way here.
:11:35. > :11:40.We are talking about Scotland prospering within the United
:11:41. > :11:45.Kingdom or Scotland clouded by uncertainty and the disruption
:11:45. > :11:48.associated with independence. I want Scotland to continue within
:11:48. > :11:54.the United Kingdom and I am confident it will. You said you
:11:54. > :11:57.were being very clear, I am not clear at all what you are saying
:11:57. > :12:02.it's. You seem to be saying you are still of the view that should
:12:02. > :12:07.people vote in a referendum there would have to be another referendum.
:12:07. > :12:13.You seem to be telling us that view is also shared by the Prime
:12:13. > :12:19.Minister. Is that right? I am not putting words into anyone else's
:12:19. > :12:24.mouth. I am saying that from what we have discussed this week...
:12:24. > :12:29.what are you saying? A I have to repeat myself. You seem to want to
:12:29. > :12:34.return to one particular aspect of this. For I am asking your question
:12:34. > :12:38.and waiting for an answer and not getting it. Perhaps it is because
:12:38. > :12:47.you're not quite liking the answer I am giving you. You can give me
:12:47. > :12:51.any answer you like. The point here is that on that Monday, responding
:12:52. > :12:57.to a question about how this might pan out, I said there was a
:12:57. > :13:02.likelihood of a second referendums. And the key thing is that I do not
:13:02. > :13:09.think there should be a referendum at all. Scotland's place should be
:13:09. > :13:14.to stay within the United Kingdom. I am absolutely on board with all
:13:14. > :13:19.my colleagues and we're absolutely focused, I am happy to repeat this
:13:19. > :13:25.yet again. We are focused on getting the Scotland Bill through
:13:25. > :13:31.and we are focused on getting Scotland's economy on a firm track.
:13:31. > :13:35.That has got to be the common agenda, not just for us, as the UK
:13:35. > :13:42.Government but for the Scottish government as well. Just to be
:13:42. > :13:48.clear, are you, Michael Moore, still of the view there would need
:13:48. > :13:54.to be two referendums on independence? Yes, I am still of
:13:54. > :14:01.that opinion, right? I have not changed the opinion I have voiced.
:14:01. > :14:06.I am putting it in a broader context. In a broader concept --
:14:06. > :14:10.context of a constitutional debate which is for the First Minister to
:14:10. > :14:15.bring forward his referendums. We need to see what it is about. We
:14:15. > :14:19.need to see how he proposes to answer the fundamental questions
:14:19. > :14:25.about the cost of independence and address the increasing economic
:14:25. > :14:29.uncertainties. On this business about questions. There has been
:14:29. > :14:36.some suggestion if the British Government have thought that the
:14:36. > :14:41.nationalists were in some way obfuscating by having a multi-
:14:41. > :14:46.choice referendum that you might be tempted to organise the referendum
:14:46. > :14:51.yourself. Is that the case or speculation? There has been a lot
:14:51. > :14:56.of speculation this week. The questions are for the First
:14:56. > :15:03.Minister. We have said he needs to clarify what he wants to do. So it
:15:03. > :15:08.is up to him and you would not organise one yourself? We have said
:15:08. > :15:12.it is up to Alex Salmond to bring for the referendum. For us it is a
:15:12. > :15:18.complete distraction, it is not what people across Scotland want to
:15:18. > :15:22.see us do. They want us to sort out the economy, they want to see new
:15:22. > :15:25.powers for the Scottish Parliament so we get new economic
:15:25. > :15:34.responsibility and financial accountability. That is what the
:15:34. > :15:37.Scotland Bill is about. We are running out of times. Award last
:15:37. > :15:40.year procedural questions. There had been reports the prime Minister
:15:40. > :15:47.it is setting up a Cabinet committee on this issue and you're
:15:47. > :15:52.going to be a member of it, is that true? At the proper time, the Prime
:15:52. > :15:57.Minister will announce how we intend to take forward issues to do
:15:57. > :16:05.with all future constitutional issues and the United Kingdom. If I
:16:05. > :16:10.may repeat myself, that is a matter for the Prime Minister. At the
:16:10. > :16:14.appropriate time, he announces Cabinet committees on whatever
:16:15. > :16:19.subject he wishes to see them focused. For us, our focus is the
:16:19. > :16:23.economy. That is what Nick Clegg's announcements were about two days.
:16:23. > :16:27.That is what the Bill is about, insuring we give Scotland the
:16:27. > :16:36.powers and responsibilities that will help us be more accountable in
:16:36. > :16:42.Now, she is one of the biggest names in Architecture, yet it has
:16:42. > :16:52.taken the Iraq designer more than 30 years to see the completion of
:16:52. > :16:53.
:16:53. > :16:59.her first major public work on British soil. It is winning acclaim
:16:59. > :17:09.for its interior. Today, she took a look around for herself with our
:17:09. > :17:19.Arts Correspondent. As you can see from the window there, there are a
:17:19. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:30.major shipyards. It Ben's like a river. It is the idea of the
:17:30. > :17:40.ability of the structure to make this end. How much of that did you
:17:40. > :17:41.
:17:41. > :17:46.draw in, what happened here before on the cloud? The shipyards, the
:17:46. > :17:51.steamers, the engines, a lot of these things were made here. They
:17:51. > :17:56.were shipped across the world. And they were brought back to be
:17:56. > :18:02.exhibited here. So the idea of this place being a landmark in that
:18:02. > :18:12.sense was very much part of the story. How much of a challenge was
:18:12. > :18:21.the design of a building which did not have pillars. We tried not to
:18:21. > :18:31.have the structure come into the space. We had the structure on the
:18:31. > :18:32.
:18:32. > :18:37.perimeter. It is it really interesting structural engineering
:18:37. > :18:45.issue and has an impact on the space. The space which it moves
:18:45. > :18:49.around without obstructions. You can see all of it. You have been
:18:49. > :18:53.such a well-known name and your buildings have been known to
:18:53. > :18:58.everyone on the architectural landscape for the last 30 years.
:18:58. > :19:06.Yet, this is the first big public commission that we have seen in the
:19:07. > :19:13.UK. It is quite surprising. Why has it taken so long? I do not know.
:19:13. > :19:18.Also, it building in Scotland, which I think it is great. I think
:19:18. > :19:26.there was always scepticism for whatever reasons, I do not know
:19:26. > :19:36.what it is. I think it is difficult sometimes to police themselves in a
:19:36. > :19:37.
:19:37. > :19:41.space if they have not seen it. In European cities, the idea of
:19:41. > :19:47.competition, doing things which is unknown to them, is may be more
:19:47. > :19:55.prevalent. Maybe things are changing. Does it feel like a brick
:19:55. > :20:04.through to have a very visible presence? -- like a break through.
:20:04. > :20:09.It is very important. And it is important in this location. It I am
:20:09. > :20:14.happy to be back and that everyone enjoys the building. Is your work
:20:14. > :20:19.complete here as far as this building goes? For once you have
:20:19. > :20:27.designed a building, do you keep an eye on it? I am always curious what
:20:27. > :20:37.they do with it. But it is their project. It is born, you give it to
:20:37. > :20:37.
:20:37. > :20:47.them and they have to take care of In very quick look at a moral's
:20:47. > :20:50.front pages. One referendum, three options. The Herald, revealed the
:20:50. > :21:00.shocking record of care homes in crisis.
:21:00. > :21:05.
:21:05. > :21:08.That is it for this week, we will As the showers continued to fade
:21:08. > :21:12.away overnight it will turn unusually cool for this time of
:21:12. > :21:18.year. We will start with sunshine in the morning but cloud will
:21:18. > :21:22.develop quickly. If you heavy showers in the afternoon. Later in
:21:22. > :21:28.the afternoon we will see some heavy, thundery showers to the east
:21:28. > :21:33.of the Pennines. Expect disruption if you're heading to the tennis at
:21:33. > :21:43.Queen's Club. In the south-west of England we will see rain. A few
:21:43. > :21:46.hours of quite intense rain. North Wales, will see some sunshine.
:21:46. > :21:53.Across Northern Ireland, a gain some sunshine and a slow-moving
:21:54. > :22:00.showers. It will not be very warm. Similar temperatures in Scotland
:22:00. > :22:04.and the best of the sunshine around the coast in the afternoon. In
:22:04. > :22:12.Devon but only 13 degrees and not getting any warmer on Saturday. --
:22:12. > :22:16.in Edinburgh. Quite a lot of showers around on Friday, but fewer
:22:16. > :22:20.showers on Saturday as. Most of the showers on Saturday will occurred
:22:20. > :22:25.during the morning and during the afternoon we should get more