0:00:06 > 0:00:10
0:00:10 > 0:00:14was sold. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: the phone hacking scandal
0:00:14 > 0:00:17at the News of the World spills north of the border. There are now
0:00:17 > 0:00:22calls for Andy Coulson to be investigated over allegations he
0:00:22 > 0:00:25committed perjury during the Sheridan perjury trial. Also
0:00:25 > 0:00:28tonight, the state of the nation as viewed by an iconic Scottish
0:00:28 > 0:00:34nationalist. Ian Hamilton hasn't lost his propensity to rattle the
0:00:34 > 0:00:37establishment. Good evening. If you tell a lie in a trial, and
0:00:37 > 0:00:40subsequently get caught, you may be prosecuted for perjury. Tommy
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Sheridan found that out. But now there are suggestions that former
0:00:43 > 0:00:47Downing Street communications chief Andy Coulson gave evidence in the
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Sheridan trial which has turned out to be untrue. Should he be liable
0:00:50 > 0:00:55to investigation for perjury? David Henderson has been looking at the
0:00:55 > 0:01:00Scottish end of this growing scandal. We thought it was all over,
0:01:00 > 0:01:06it may not be now. Last December Tommy Sheridan walked out of court,
0:01:06 > 0:01:10his reputation in tatters, but, to the end, he complained he had been
0:01:10 > 0:01:15picked out or unfair treatment at the hands of the Crown Office and
0:01:15 > 0:01:20police. So it from million pounds of public money was spent
0:01:20 > 0:01:23investigating me and my wife. Is it not time that similar resources
0:01:23 > 0:01:33were devoted to investigating the activities of the News of the
0:01:33 > 0:01:38world? Andy Coulson was a witness at Sheridan's trial also at the
0:01:38 > 0:01:42time he was Number Ten's most senior spin-doctor and a former
0:01:42 > 0:01:46editor of the News of the world. Sheridan accused him and his
0:01:46 > 0:01:56newspaper of conspiring to bring him down. So, Sheridan asked
0:01:56 > 0:02:02
0:02:02 > 0:02:07And that, emphatic statement made in court by Andy Coulson seems at
0:02:07 > 0:02:10odds with information obtained by the BBC. The News of the world has
0:02:10 > 0:02:15passed e-mails to the police, alleging that the men's were made
0:02:15 > 0:02:20by the newspaper to the police and those were authorised by Andy
0:02:20 > 0:02:25Coulson, who was the paper's editor at the time. If that information is
0:02:25 > 0:02:31true, was Andy Coulson actually lying in court that day? And if
0:02:31 > 0:02:35that is the case, could he end up back here, on trial for perjury?
0:02:35 > 0:02:40There is a real possibility that Andy Coulson could find himself in
0:02:40 > 0:02:44the High Court on allegations of perjury. He told the High Court he
0:02:44 > 0:02:47was not aware of any culture of telephone hacking wells he was
0:02:47 > 0:02:51editor of News of the World. If it turns out that that was not the
0:02:51 > 0:02:56case, then he could find himself potentially open to charges of
0:02:56 > 0:03:03perjury arising from his testimony at the High Court. And, in the
0:03:03 > 0:03:09Commons to the, MPs demanded action. There are currently people serving
0:03:09 > 0:03:13prison sentences, including Tommy Sheridan, the former MSP. The
0:03:14 > 0:03:19successful prosecution was based on evidence from Andrew Coulson. But
0:03:19 > 0:03:22now, it seems as if the jury did not get all the e-mails put an end
0:03:22 > 0:03:26to that case. If that is the case then surely the appropriate
0:03:26 > 0:03:32authorities should revisit this case, and ask Andy Coulson whether
0:03:32 > 0:03:37this information was withheld intentionally. I just want to fully
0:03:37 > 0:03:40as a my honourable friend because time restrictions will reveal more
0:03:41 > 0:03:46on that later in the date but I think that the Sheridan trial was
0:03:46 > 0:03:50unsound, and may be revisited. Tommy Sheridan's legal team now
0:03:50 > 0:03:59want police to investigate Andy Coulson. He may yet have his
0:03:59 > 0:04:02revenge. I'm joined now by Aamer Anwar, the solicitor who worked
0:04:02 > 0:04:06with the Sheridans during their perjury trials. What action argue
0:04:06 > 0:04:11proposing should be taken as a result of what we now know about
0:04:11 > 0:04:14what was going on at the News of the World? Tomorrow afternoon,
0:04:15 > 0:04:22myself and Tom Watson M P will meet Strathclyde police and present a
0:04:22 > 0:04:26dossier, in which there are allegations that the law has been
0:04:26 > 0:04:32broken, that the number of individuals may have ordered phone
0:04:32 > 0:04:37hacking, and there is a dossier of the evidence of Andy Coulson, the
0:04:37 > 0:04:41UK editor, of Bob Berg, was the Scottish editor, and of Douglas
0:04:42 > 0:04:47White, who was the assistant editor, all three of whom gave evidence
0:04:47 > 0:04:50during the Sheridan trial, all of whom claimed there was no payment
0:04:50 > 0:04:53to cut police officers, and there was a number of other issues that
0:04:53 > 0:05:00there was. We are demanding that there should be a full-scale
0:05:00 > 0:05:05investigation into their evidence and into other issues such as phone
0:05:05 > 0:05:09hacking, there is a question of Rebekah Wade, or Rebekah bricks now,
0:05:09 > 0:05:14at the time having requested mobile phone conversion. I have a document
0:05:14 > 0:05:21which contains thousands of entries of individuals including scores of
0:05:21 > 0:05:26people in Scotland. I am not going into details but it is a document
0:05:26 > 0:05:32that private detectives were requested to access mobile phone
0:05:32 > 0:05:39records, and private details, car registration plates, and the stock
0:05:39 > 0:05:44response, again, from Andy Coulson, Bob would, and Douglas we, was that
0:05:44 > 0:05:50these were perfectly legitimate activities. I think it incredible
0:05:50 > 0:05:54that Glen Mulcaire was on our exclusive contract of �105,000 to
0:05:54 > 0:05:58the use of the world, and that people like Andy Coulson did not
0:05:58 > 0:06:01know what he was up to cross off food you think should carry out
0:06:01 > 0:06:05this investigation? We have had some discussion the Strathclyde
0:06:05 > 0:06:09police. We would like to see a close working relationship between
0:06:09 > 0:06:14Strathclyde Police, because if the offence was committed, allegations
0:06:14 > 0:06:17have to be investigated. And nobody is above the law. If a mistake was
0:06:17 > 0:06:21made in the High Court then it was a very serious mistake and it
0:06:21 > 0:06:25should be rectified. If it was a lie, then people have gone to
0:06:25 > 0:06:30prison for a lot less. These are serious allegations and no one is
0:06:30 > 0:06:37above the law, especially these newspaper executives. Mr Gilligan
0:06:37 > 0:06:40was told because he had a public profile from being a politician. If
0:06:40 > 0:06:44individuals to work for the News of the world have conspired to break
0:06:44 > 0:06:48the lock and put that the course of justice and tamper with police
0:06:48 > 0:06:51evidence then these are criminal offences that should be
0:06:51 > 0:06:55investigated and prosecuted. Central to this issue was that
0:06:55 > 0:07:00during this year and trial, we asked the question, where are the
0:07:00 > 0:07:04e-mails, from Paul Bird, and the lawyer who work for the News of the
0:07:04 > 0:07:08world at the time and we were told these e-mails had been lost in an
0:07:08 > 0:07:10archive in mom by. Tom Watson contacted the information
0:07:10 > 0:07:16commissioner's office who told them that that could be in breach of
0:07:16 > 0:07:24legislation and born be old, after the trial, lawyers from Wapping
0:07:24 > 0:07:29came forward and said that was a mistake from Paul Bird, these e-
0:07:29 > 0:07:31mails are presents in clopping. The and now what we see is a trail of
0:07:31 > 0:07:36e-mails being disclosed that say that there has been cash payments
0:07:36 > 0:07:40to police officers, illegal activities carried out, phone
0:07:40 > 0:07:44hacking, and it has grown arms and legs. Up until now, what we have
0:07:44 > 0:07:48been concentrating on his England. Many people dismissed Tommy
0:07:48 > 0:07:53Sheridan's claims awful nagging despite the fact that everything he
0:07:53 > 0:07:57said has turned out to be correct because of my concern is that this
0:07:57 > 0:08:03and other documents contain scores of names of individuals and
0:08:03 > 0:08:10personalities who spoke to me. problem for you is that you may
0:08:10 > 0:08:15well get the investigation that you want, but it is not entirely clear,
0:08:15 > 0:08:21although obviously it was entangled in Tommy Sheridan's case, it is not
0:08:21 > 0:08:25clear why having an investigation into the alleged perjury of Andy
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Coulson or the other stuff, does Tommy Sheridan any good because
0:08:28 > 0:08:33none of these things were particularly important aspects of
0:08:33 > 0:08:38the case against them. With the greatest respect, that is your
0:08:38 > 0:08:43opinion. But he went to prison by several months because the judge in
0:08:43 > 0:08:47the case ruled it was critical to the case and the defence... It was
0:08:47 > 0:08:51important that the jury should know whether individuals had been paid
0:08:51 > 0:08:56large sums of money, whether phones had been hacked, whether there was
0:08:56 > 0:09:01pressure to change evidence, or to give evidence. One of the
0:09:01 > 0:09:04individuals, we only got and full of e-mails and and Atkinson's Mr
0:09:04 > 0:09:08Sheridan was found not guilty but we were denied e-mails right across
0:09:08 > 0:09:13the board by the use of the world. It was like getting blood out of a
0:09:13 > 0:09:21stone. At the end of the day, they are not above the law and must
0:09:21 > 0:09:24stand accountable. Now for something that's not actually
0:09:24 > 0:09:27completely different. From time to time on this programme we like to
0:09:27 > 0:09:30interview people just because they're interesting. On this
0:09:30 > 0:09:32occasion, as you'll see, the interviewee also seems to have been
0:09:32 > 0:09:34strangely prescient. On Christmas morning, the stone was gone. The
0:09:34 > 0:09:37Dean of Westminster called the disappearance an act of sacrilege.
0:09:38 > 0:09:43Ian Hamilton came to public attention because of something he
0:09:43 > 0:09:48did at Christmas in 1950 when he was a student. The taking of the
0:09:48 > 0:09:55Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey was the single most important
0:09:55 > 0:10:01public demonstration in the 20th century. These initial support to
0:10:01 > 0:10:05stand for just as for Scotland and support the theory that the work --
0:10:05 > 0:10:09the disappearance of the stone is the work of extreme Scottish
0:10:09 > 0:10:15nationalists. Ian Hamilton pursued along and make a successful career
0:10:15 > 0:10:18as an advocate. He has remained an outspoken Buckler uncritical
0:10:18 > 0:10:22supporter of independence and has not been short of words of advice
0:10:22 > 0:10:27for the Scottish legal establishment, and more recently as
0:10:27 > 0:10:35a shareholder in RBS, he tried to pursue it through the court after
0:10:35 > 0:10:39the financial crash. Ian Hamilton came into our Glasgow studios
0:10:39 > 0:10:43recently, to discuss his view of the state of the nation. I put it
0:10:43 > 0:10:46to him first that the SNP had just won a stunning majority, in an
0:10:46 > 0:10:49election in which he proudly claimed he had not voted. That is
0:10:49 > 0:10:56so, because there is no worthwhile opposition to the SNP. And in a
0:10:56 > 0:11:03democracy there has got to be an opposition, even if it is just one
0:11:03 > 0:11:10person like myself. You cannot have known that before the election.
0:11:10 > 0:11:15That was sticking out a mile that the Unionists were nowhere, and by
0:11:16 > 0:11:20that I mean the Conservatives and liberals, for goodness sake. That
0:11:20 > 0:11:26was a save none vote which allowed me to say that what I think the SNP
0:11:26 > 0:11:31should have been doing and, at that time, were not. What were you
0:11:31 > 0:11:35trying to say? I was trying to say that we should be preparing for
0:11:35 > 0:11:43independence because independence does not mean a step into the dark,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47as you people in the BBC tried to portray it. Independence means
0:11:47 > 0:11:55going from precedent to precedent, as Edmond Parkes said more than 200
0:11:55 > 0:11:59years ago and that was what the SNP has started to do now. Not because
0:11:59 > 0:12:04of me but because of the overwhelming majority at the last
0:12:04 > 0:12:08election. What is it you think Alex Salmond should have been doing, at
0:12:08 > 0:12:13least before the election? should have been telling us what
0:12:13 > 0:12:17independence meant. It is not a step off the edge of a cliff.
0:12:18 > 0:12:23Independence has been something we have been preparing for, for the
0:12:23 > 0:12:28last 150 years. 150 years ago the secretary of state a Scotland
0:12:28 > 0:12:34appointed. 100 years ago, the Secretary of State became a Cabinet
0:12:34 > 0:12:39minister. 50, 60 years ago, four ministers of State appointed, 19th
0:12:39 > 0:12:46of the, the Scottish civil-service moved to Edinburgh. More power
0:12:46 > 0:12:53devolved to Scotland. Then you get evolution. The next step is so
0:12:53 > 0:12:58obvious, so obviously, the right to choose a non-French roundabout
0:12:58 > 0:13:05dollars and throughout the world. Apart from be known for your
0:13:05 > 0:13:08activities based around the Stone of Scone, you were a lawyer. And
0:13:08 > 0:13:15you're not very happy with the state of the leadership of the
0:13:15 > 0:13:24Scottish legal system. You can say that, in spades. I was understating
0:13:24 > 0:13:31the case. Yes, our human rights record in Scotland, since
0:13:31 > 0:13:40devolution, has been abominable. I would blame it particularly on two
0:13:40 > 0:13:50people, Angelina, the recently- retired Lord Advocate, and the
0:13:50 > 0:13:51
0:13:51 > 0:13:56minister of justice, Kenny MacAskill. You see, and Juliana
0:13:56 > 0:14:00came up out of the Fiscal Service, where her duty is to get
0:14:00 > 0:14:05convictions. The duty of the Lord Advocate is not to get convictions,
0:14:05 > 0:14:10the Lord Advocate is there to protect the public, and the offices
0:14:10 > 0:14:16there to protect us against wrongful prosecutions as well, not
0:14:17 > 0:14:22just to get convictions to satisfy the red top newspapers and the red
0:14:22 > 0:14:26tops and the BBC, who blamed the administration if they do not get
0:14:26 > 0:14:32enough convictions. If a high- profile marker goes on salt, the
0:14:32 > 0:14:42red tops plane the police and the administration and then say that
0:14:42 > 0:14:44
0:14:44 > 0:14:49Are you saying that in some of these very high profile cases where
0:14:49 > 0:14:53the judicial system has been overruled, the slopping out
0:14:53 > 0:15:00business for example, that it was there at Scottish system that was
0:15:00 > 0:15:09at fault? Yes, that is what I am saying. The slopping out system was
0:15:10 > 0:15:19the fault of what is his name, Wallace, and he should have been
0:15:20 > 0:15:20
0:15:20 > 0:15:23spending money on Updating presence. That is in the past. What is in the
0:15:23 > 0:15:29present this that had a business, up their right of every one of us
0:15:29 > 0:15:33charged with an offence to get legal advice before her. And I
0:15:33 > 0:15:39would go further and said while we are being interviewed by the police.
0:15:39 > 0:15:45That is just such a basic right. You see, people say it is being
0:15:45 > 0:15:50soft on crime for lawyers to see accused people. It is not. The real
0:15:50 > 0:15:55criminals, their heads of departments of crime, at no their
0:15:55 > 0:16:04legal rights. They do not have to be told them. If your son or mine
0:16:04 > 0:16:09it was roped into something he did not do, he needs legal advice. Look
0:16:09 > 0:16:14at Keele Sheridan. She took legal advice and it did not say anything.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20And then what happened to her? She was accused as though she had been
0:16:20 > 0:16:25due -- treated by terrorists because she just sat looking at the
0:16:26 > 0:16:35wall when a police meant -- when a policeman sat howling questions at
0:16:36 > 0:16:37
0:16:37 > 0:16:43her. So when you see Alex Salmond saying that the main issue end it
0:16:43 > 0:16:47these various cases is that it is wrong for the Supreme Court in
0:16:47 > 0:16:54Britain to be involved and that is the issue, are you saying that is
0:16:54 > 0:16:59not the real issue at all? Yes, I do say that. Alex Salmond is wrong
0:16:59 > 0:17:06there. The administration of justice has not yet caught up with
0:17:06 > 0:17:13devilish and. I would have an end of it -- independent advocate as
0:17:13 > 0:17:21Lord Advocate and I would have a real tough person as minister for
0:17:21 > 0:17:26justice. We need a different view on our Minister of Justice. Do you
0:17:26 > 0:17:31know that only 4% of the profession think that the present Minister of
0:17:31 > 0:17:36Justice should hold his job? Mind you, I would be worried if it was
0:17:36 > 0:17:39the other way about. If every lawyer thought the Minister of
0:17:39 > 0:17:44Justice was doing a great job, you bet I would be complaining about
0:17:45 > 0:17:53that. But really, Kenny MacAskill has got a solicitor's mind for what
0:17:53 > 0:17:57is a statesman problem -- statesman's problem. The biggest
0:17:57 > 0:18:01legal case in Scotland in the last decade was the Tommy Sheridan --
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Tommy Sheridan case. You became quite friendly with them, did she
0:18:06 > 0:18:13not? And thought that despite what a lot of people thought was a lot
0:18:13 > 0:18:19of evidence, they got a bad deal. Yes. And Tommy Sheridan's appeal is
0:18:19 > 0:18:27still ongoing. Weekend top about the will's case because her case
0:18:27 > 0:18:34was substantially a scandal. Nobody is controlling the police. In
0:18:34 > 0:18:38Argyll, if there is a fatal accident, the close the road for
0:18:38 > 0:18:44sex, eight or 10 hours because they say if it could be the scene of a
0:18:44 > 0:18:52crime. -- six. You would think that such an important thing like that
0:18:52 > 0:18:56would be done only by an Act of Parliament, but it is not. Chief
0:18:56 > 0:19:02Police officers and Superintendents themselves decided this. And then
0:19:02 > 0:19:07when it came to Tommy Sheridan's wife's case, perjury, what did they
0:19:07 > 0:19:11do? The interviewed everyone who spoke up for the Sheridan's,
0:19:11 > 0:19:18including heart, and cheated all of those people who spoke against the
0:19:18 > 0:19:26News of the World as though as though the word that, that, there
0:19:26 > 0:19:30blue eyed people. There was no equality of investigation. If a
0:19:30 > 0:19:36crime has been committed, the police should look on each side and
0:19:36 > 0:19:40in this case they did not. More than that, the News of the World
0:19:41 > 0:19:48bought a witness for �200,000 and handed his DVD, which was supposed
0:19:48 > 0:19:54to hold a confession, handed that over to the Lord Advocate. The
0:19:54 > 0:19:59weakness that has characterised this office of Lord Advocate, she
0:19:59 > 0:20:06used that and then having put Sheridan's wife through all the
0:20:06 > 0:20:12trauma, they have a three-year for Dr and putting her through that
0:20:12 > 0:20:22trauma, after all that they said it is not in the public interest to
0:20:22 > 0:20:23
0:20:23 > 0:20:30prosecute. A more general point. The poor and deprived in society. I
0:20:30 > 0:20:35know that one of your views is that no one really, including the SNP,
0:20:35 > 0:20:45actually represent any more of people who are disadvantaged.
0:20:45 > 0:20:45
0:20:45 > 0:20:50This is why I became friendly with Tommy Sheridan. When we meet we do
0:20:50 > 0:20:55not talk about politics, we do not agree, but one thing we definitely
0:20:55 > 0:20:59agree about is that there is a dispossessed layer of society. It
0:20:59 > 0:21:06may not be because they are all but short of money, all will lots of
0:21:06 > 0:21:12them are, but they are deprived of hope. You do not think any of the
0:21:12 > 0:21:20parties speak for these people. The no, certainly not Labour's --
0:21:20 > 0:21:25Labour. When did Labour ever speak for the poor? You became famous all
0:21:25 > 0:21:30that years ago for stealing the Stone of Destiny which became seen
0:21:30 > 0:21:34as at symbolic act. If you were to suggest to someone an equivalent
0:21:34 > 0:21:42action would be -- what an equivalent action would be now, of
0:21:42 > 0:21:45what would that be? I think I was just lucky. Everybody who was
0:21:45 > 0:21:49anything for a couple of hundred years has said that we must get
0:21:49 > 0:21:55that stone back. I was just the lucky one. I was just lucky enough
0:21:55 > 0:22:01to do it. Mind you, I never expected it to be talked about 60
0:22:01 > 0:22:11years later. But I pressed the button at the right time. I got fed
0:22:11 > 0:22:12
0:22:12 > 0:22:18up with it. But on the other hand, who else from my class of people in
0:22:18 > 0:22:23Paisley has had a reception in the Great Hall of Edinburgh Castle? Or
0:22:23 > 0:22:31for that matter, been interviewed by a distinguished interviewer,
0:22:31 > 0:22:35Gordon, who has not thrust his own ideas down my throat? I thought you
0:22:35 > 0:22:41claimed I'd do that to everyone all the time? Well, you have made an
0:22:41 > 0:22:49exception tonight. Just you and you mention that, you're going to see
0:22:49 > 0:22:52the Queen, are you not? When I was Rector of Aberdeen University it
0:22:52 > 0:22:59was a 500th anniversary and a list of the people to be presented to
0:22:59 > 0:23:02the Queen was read out. I was there. And to the astonishment of the
0:23:02 > 0:23:10university court, I said I am willing for the Queen to be
0:23:10 > 0:23:15presented to me. But I represent a civilisation as rector of the
0:23:15 > 0:23:20University far, far older than the House of Windsor. So there were two
0:23:20 > 0:23:24possessions into the great cathedral up there. Mind, but led
0:23:24 > 0:23:30by the Lord Advocate -- Lord Advocate, the other at led by the
0:23:30 > 0:23:38royals. And mine was the bigger. think that is an excellent place to
0:23:38 > 0:23:45leave it. Facts Mac -- Thank you very much.
0:23:45 > 0:23:53There is a longer episode of that on the website.
0:23:53 > 0:24:00A quick look at tomorrow's papers. The Scotsman says Sheridan
0:24:00 > 0:24:05jailbreak trial was unsigned. The Times says Parliament puts