0:00:09 > 0:00:15Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The News Corp scandal gets worse and
0:00:15 > 0:00:19worse. Where will it go next? And Major and Salmond on the same side?
0:00:19 > 0:00:25An unlikely political pairing as the former Tory Prime Minister
0:00:25 > 0:00:29comes out in favour of devomax for Scotland. I found this the most
0:00:29 > 0:00:33incredible intervention in recent years. For John Major to say this,
0:00:33 > 0:00:38this was the man who said independence was sleep walking
0:00:38 > 0:00:43towards independence, now he's saying have the whole lot.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47Good evening. As you've just been hearing, the Murdoch paper scandals
0:00:47 > 0:00:57continue to plummet to new depths. continue to plummet to new depths.
0:00:57 > 0:01:05
0:01:05 > 0:01:09A spokesman for the former Prime Let's cross to Millbank, where the
0:01:09 > 0:01:12former Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Menzies Campbell has just come from
0:01:12 > 0:01:18the House of Commons. Thank you for coming in. What is the attitude in
0:01:18 > 0:01:21the House tonight? It's slightly calmer than it was earlier, when it
0:01:21 > 0:01:28was pretty explosive. Jeremy Hunt, the Secretary of State with
0:01:28 > 0:01:32responsibility for newspapers, came to make a statement. Eblgd, -- Ed
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Miliband tackled him strongly, in particular about the absence of
0:01:36 > 0:01:40David Cameron. But this really is a rehearsal for the big picture on
0:01:40 > 0:01:46Wednesday, when we're going to have a full scale debate about these
0:01:46 > 0:01:50issues. Of course, it will follow hard upon Prime Minister's
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Questions. You can take it that Wednesday will be yet another of
0:01:53 > 0:01:57these quite extraordinary Parliamentary occasions which have
0:01:58 > 0:02:02all blown up in the last ten days. In terms of what comes out of that
0:02:02 > 0:02:07practically, you cannot legislate retrospectively in all of this. The
0:02:07 > 0:02:11argument now is that the law applied very strictly would still
0:02:11 > 0:02:15allow the BSkyB bid to go through. What can you do to adequately
0:02:15 > 0:02:19channel the public's deep concern about what's going on here? Let me
0:02:19 > 0:02:24just say, the public's deep concern is to be found in the e-mail
0:02:24 > 0:02:28accounts of every MP. At one stage I had one e-mail a minute coming in
0:02:28 > 0:02:33saying "You've got to do something about this." You're quite right you
0:02:33 > 0:02:37cannot have retrospective legislation. The decision by Mr
0:02:37 > 0:02:41Murdoch to withdraw the undertakings, this is a bit
0:02:41 > 0:02:46technical, withdraw the undertakings that Jeremy Hunt had
0:02:46 > 0:02:51been relying on, has in effect, referring the matter back to the
0:02:51 > 0:02:55Competition Commission. Jeremy Hunt said in the House of Commons today
0:02:55 > 0:03:01then the Competition Commission would have to look at questions of
0:03:01 > 0:03:06fit and proper. That's not the only avenue, because Ofcom, that's the
0:03:06 > 0:03:12body that regulates broadcasting, has a continuing duty to raise the
0:03:12 > 0:03:17question of fit and proper, if it thinks that someone for whom they
0:03:17 > 0:03:22have responsibility has ceased to be fit and proper. So, these are
0:03:22 > 0:03:25two parallel tracks and if the idea on the part of Mr Murdoch was to
0:03:25 > 0:03:30put this into touch for several months, then I don't think that's
0:03:30 > 0:03:36necessarily going to be successful. But in the public mind, the fit and
0:03:36 > 0:03:40proper test has delivered Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black. Do you think
0:03:40 > 0:03:44it's time to look again at who owns papers here, for example, in
0:03:44 > 0:03:48America, where there's all this free market, they would never allow
0:03:48 > 0:03:53this level of foreign ownership of newspapers. It's one of the
0:03:53 > 0:03:56paradoxs, the United States, the land of the free, the land of
0:03:56 > 0:04:01private enterprise should have a more restrictive regime than we
0:04:01 > 0:04:05have here. I think you have to be very careful, I know I'm talking to
0:04:05 > 0:04:11a journalist, you have to be very careful about regulation. What we
0:04:11 > 0:04:17don't want to do is create stirks in which newspapers simply become
0:04:17 > 0:04:21the puppet of Government or are too frightened even to use their
0:04:21 > 0:04:26particular powers and indeed to fulfil their responsibilities to
0:04:26 > 0:04:29help the scrutiny of Government, but there's no o doubt that the
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Press Complaints Commission is generally regarded as having failed.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37It's also the case that the public, which I've rarely referred to, is
0:04:37 > 0:04:40so fired up about this, that unless something is seen to be done and
0:04:40 > 0:04:44something seen to be done which is effective, there will be a huge
0:04:44 > 0:04:48amount of anger and disillusionment. You have known Gordon Brown
0:04:48 > 0:04:52personally for many years. It seems with the latest revelations about
0:04:52 > 0:04:57the sort of information which was sought and published, particularly
0:04:57 > 0:05:02relating to his baby son's medical records, what is your reaction to
0:05:02 > 0:05:06that and what do you think would be the family reaction? Gordon Brown
0:05:06 > 0:05:11has been a friend of mine for a long time. Our constituencies
0:05:11 > 0:05:18adjoin each other. I simply cannot imagine how I would feel if there
0:05:18 > 0:05:22had been that degree of intrusion, the mixture of anger, of hurt, of
0:05:22 > 0:05:27frustration I'm not surprised the matters have been referred to the
0:05:27 > 0:05:34police. That therefore inhibits comment. But I would ask this
0:05:34 > 0:05:36question: What sort of people think it is legitimate to examine the
0:05:36 > 0:05:42medical records of the child of the Prime Minister for the purpose of
0:05:42 > 0:05:45getting a story? Just exactly what kind of people think that that is a
0:05:45 > 0:05:50proper exercise of the press freedom which is so important in
0:05:50 > 0:05:56this country. Thank you very much. With me now is the political
0:05:56 > 0:06:01commentator and former advisor to Gordon Brown, Paul Sinclair.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05Following on from what Sir Menzies Campbell was saying, Alastair
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Campbell has conceded that once everybody was in power they did
0:06:09 > 0:06:12everything they could to ingratiate themselves with the Murdoch press.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17What does it say about the relationship with Gordon Brown?
0:06:17 > 0:06:22think that nobody, everybody, every politician wants good press and
0:06:22 > 0:06:25wants good relations with every publisher, but I don't think
0:06:25 > 0:06:30anybody really understood what was happening here. I don't think
0:06:30 > 0:06:36anybody realised, I mean, News International tell you they didn't
0:06:36 > 0:06:39realise it themselves, the level of criminality of widespread hacking
0:06:39 > 0:06:43and breaking into people's privacy on this scale. Nobody understood
0:06:43 > 0:06:47that. I think if they had, relationships would have been very
0:06:47 > 0:06:51different. This was published when Gordon Brown's baby was a matter of
0:06:51 > 0:06:56months old. He subsequently went to Rebekah Brooks wedding. Do you
0:06:56 > 0:07:00think that, for good reasons, he was too afraid at that time to
0:07:00 > 0:07:06actually challenge the Murdoch press, if he was as distressed as
0:07:06 > 0:07:10he must have been? It is very, very difficult if you are invited to
0:07:10 > 0:07:14have a relationship with somebody as powerful as Rebekah Brooks to
0:07:14 > 0:07:17say no. I will reject that relationship. The power, the almost
0:07:17 > 0:07:21monopoly that the Murdoch press have had, which now seems to be
0:07:21 > 0:07:26coming to an end, meant that even more difficult for politicians. One
0:07:26 > 0:07:32of the things, you know, people ask why did Gordon Brown not take
0:07:32 > 0:07:35action when he was Prime Minister against this. I have to say, the
0:07:35 > 0:07:38last couple of years in the Labour Government we were behind in the
0:07:38 > 0:07:43polls. Can you imagine what people would have said if we'd tried to do
0:07:43 > 0:07:46something about the ownership of the press while we were behind or
0:07:46 > 0:07:50while Gordon was unpopular. It wasn't tenable. But something must
0:07:50 > 0:07:56be done now. Back to Millbank now. And James Forsyth, the political
0:07:56 > 0:08:00editor of the Spectator. Thank you for coming in. In your analysis of
0:08:00 > 0:08:04where this is with David Cameron, do you think he's been behind the
0:08:04 > 0:08:09curve on this so far? I think Prime Minister's are like cats and have
0:08:09 > 0:08:14nine lives. David Cameron has used one of them up in this scandal. He
0:08:14 > 0:08:18desperately needs get on the front foot in the next few days. What,
0:08:19 > 0:08:24though, in terms of what you're hearing from the backbench to be
0:08:24 > 0:08:30way sensible way forward then. The idea that Rupert Murdoch might be
0:08:30 > 0:08:35persuaded to abandon the BSkyB all together. Is thater to with the
0:08:35 > 0:08:41backbench? There was a telling moment today. An MP said I think
0:08:41 > 0:08:44Rupert Murdoch should drop the bid. That would be a decent thing to do.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47Normallyer to MPs wouldn't agree with that sentiment, but a lot
0:08:47 > 0:08:51seemed to today, including those who are loyal and cles to the
0:08:51 > 0:08:55leadership. That's an issue for him. They'll be thinking what he needs
0:08:55 > 0:08:59to do is use the fact he is Prime Minister to move on the inquiries
0:08:59 > 0:09:04front. He needs to get these going and stress the police about the
0:09:04 > 0:09:08police is crucial here. If you have people who are paid to protect the
0:09:08 > 0:09:11Royal Family, selling information to tabloid newspapers, that is
0:09:11 > 0:09:15deeply worrying. That needs to be addressed quickly.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19Also an astonishing outburst from the police today saying they felt
0:09:19 > 0:09:24their inquiries into that issue, were undermined by leaks. It's
0:09:24 > 0:09:28obvious who they were trying to point the finger at there? There's
0:09:28 > 0:09:32only two people involved here, that's News International and the
0:09:32 > 0:09:37police. The police say it's not us leaking this. That's going to be
0:09:37 > 0:09:40interesting. There's a challenge for Cameron there. The Gordon Brown
0:09:40 > 0:09:45revelations show how completely reluctant politicians of some
0:09:45 > 0:09:49stripes were to confront News International about its practices.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53It is remarkable that avenues international if Gordon Brown
0:09:53 > 0:09:56believe that News International did this to his family, that he carried
0:09:56 > 0:10:01on as normal with them. Paul? think it's very, very difficult
0:10:01 > 0:10:05considering the position that Gordon Brown was in that he would
0:10:05 > 0:10:07somehow wage war on News International, considering the
0:10:07 > 0:10:14strength and power it did, particularly in a personal way.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17Let's think about this. This is a man who his first child was lost
0:10:17 > 0:10:22tragically. Somebody at News International decides it's a good
0:10:23 > 0:10:27story to break that a little boy has SIS tick fibrosis. What's
0:10:27 > 0:10:31Gordon Brown going to do? Is he going to take on News International
0:10:31 > 0:10:35because of a story about his son that he would rather have been kept
0:10:35 > 0:10:39private. I think he would have exposed his family to even more. I
0:10:39 > 0:10:45don't think it was soured is on Gordon Brown's part. Is it your
0:10:45 > 0:10:48impression that all of this stops at the boreder or is that naive?
0:10:48 > 0:10:52think it's a nigh jeef and comforting thought that this
0:10:52 > 0:10:56doesn't happen up here. When a curious position for News
0:10:56 > 0:10:59International. I don't believe that newspapers decide elections. But
0:10:59 > 0:11:06News International could have made the difference between the SNP
0:11:06 > 0:11:10being the largest party and having an overall majority. In May 2010 it
0:11:11 > 0:11:15said vote for the Conservatives. 12 months later it's saying vote for
0:11:15 > 0:11:22the party that advocates independence. I would like to know
0:11:22 > 0:11:24what made them think that way and I would like to know how close
0:11:24 > 0:11:29executives at News International are with counterparts in England.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34Everyone would say the sun is good of seeing the way public opinion
0:11:34 > 0:11:37was going. Perhaps that raises the issue about the actual influence of
0:11:37 > 0:11:41newspapers. Does all this have to change the relationship between all
0:11:41 > 0:11:46political parties now and the newspapers in Scotland? I think the
0:11:46 > 0:11:51influence of newspaper sz a little bit understated. What's really
0:11:51 > 0:11:55going to kill newspapers influence in politics is people aren't
0:11:55 > 0:11:59reading them. Even if we had a mission from News International
0:11:59 > 0:12:04that they just back the winner. That would be interesting no hear.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06James, do you think in some way David Cameron now has to absolutely
0:12:06 > 0:12:10distance himself from Rupert Murdoch in a way that Ed Miliband
0:12:10 > 0:12:14has tried to do, whether he succeeds in that in the public mind
0:12:14 > 0:12:19or not. What does David Cameron have to do in the future about his
0:12:19 > 0:12:23relationship with Rupert Murdoch? One of the underexplored angles of
0:12:23 > 0:12:27this story is that Number Ten are furious with the way that they see
0:12:27 > 0:12:31Andy Coulson has been hung out to dry by news intertharbl. There is a
0:12:31 > 0:12:33distancing going on because of the way that Number Ten believe that
0:12:33 > 0:12:39News International has behaved towards Andy Coulson. Thank you
0:12:39 > 0:12:42very much. Carry on. I don't think the relationship between Rupert
0:12:42 > 0:12:44Murdoch and British politicians will be ever the same again after
0:12:45 > 0:12:50this scandal. It's changed now forever.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Thank you for that. Paul Sinclair, thank you very much for coming in.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Now when the Scottish Parliament opened in 1999, who would have
0:12:57 > 0:13:01thought the former Prime Minister, John Major, would one day be
0:13:01 > 0:13:05calling for its powers to be extended. He says the current set
0:13:05 > 0:13:11up is unsustainable and only full fiscal autonomy for Scotland will
0:13:11 > 0:13:18protect the union. What would that mean forts Conservative Party, both
0:13:18 > 0:13:21north and south of the border. Who would have predicted this
0:13:21 > 0:13:24pairing at Wimbledon, the First Minister Alex Salmond chatting like
0:13:24 > 0:13:28old friends with John Major, the man who argued so deeply in favour
0:13:28 > 0:13:35of protecting the union that he declared he was fighting the Battle
0:13:35 > 0:13:41of Britain. But things change, including opinions. The former
0:13:41 > 0:13:51Prime Minister, who once fought against devolution, wants powers to
0:13:51 > 0:14:01
0:14:01 > 0:14:05against devolution, wants powers to But this is a tactical game. In
0:14:05 > 0:14:10exchange for greater powers, there would be fewer Scottish seats in
0:14:10 > 0:14:14Westminster, making it easier for the Conservatives to win. I found
0:14:14 > 0:14:19this the most incredible intervention in recent years. For
0:14:20 > 0:14:23John Major to say this, it's absolute havers. He said
0:14:23 > 0:14:27independence was sleep walking towards independence. Now he's
0:14:27 > 0:14:33saying let's go the whole way. I can't understand what he's playing
0:14:33 > 0:14:35at. Unless he's completely sick of us. What do the opinions of a
0:14:36 > 0:14:40former Prime Minister tell us about what's going on inside Downing
0:14:41 > 0:14:45Street today. Well, if you believe some commentators, quite a lot.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49John Major and David Cameron are close and it's been suggested that
0:14:49 > 0:14:55John Major has aired these views for David Cameron to test out
0:14:55 > 0:14:59for David Cameron to test out public opinion. David Cameron has
0:14:59 > 0:15:03already hinted his Government may beat the SNP to the punch and call
0:15:03 > 0:15:10their own referendum on independence. But while some
0:15:10 > 0:15:17English stories would welcome cutting ties, the in Holyrood the
0:15:17 > 0:15:23party line is to support the union. There's always room for discussion.
0:15:23 > 0:15:29Devolution is a process. Whether or not we have now reached the stage
0:15:29 > 0:15:35of devolution I don't know. We must be willing to look at things. The
0:15:35 > 0:15:40Jeanie came out of the bottle in 1999, and basically I think that
0:15:40 > 0:15:45everybody's view is that we should attempt to make the zisting system
0:15:45 > 0:15:51work. If that needs to be built upon by changes such as in Scotland
0:15:51 > 0:15:55bill, then so be it. The Scottish Tory who is completely against
0:15:55 > 0:16:01devolution, has become something of a rare breed. It's very attractive
0:16:01 > 0:16:04to Tories in Holyrood for a lot of them. It's also quite attractive to
0:16:04 > 0:16:08many of the supporters in the business world. In Scotland, a lot
0:16:08 > 0:16:12of business men would sell to grannies for a big reduction in
0:16:13 > 0:16:16corporation tax. They cannot be trusted on the union. I'm bound to
0:16:16 > 0:16:22say I would rather trust the Labour Party on the union than I would the
0:16:22 > 0:16:28Scottish Tories. So where does this-a Unionist Party
0:16:28 > 0:16:30when it's moving towards a weaker union? And could this change in
0:16:30 > 0:16:37tactics see the Conservatives return to play in Scottish
0:16:37 > 0:16:41politics? Still with us in London is the
0:16:41 > 0:16:45political editor, James Forsyth, from the Spectator. And in
0:16:45 > 0:16:51Edinburgh, the historian Michael Fry. Thank you very much indeed for
0:16:51 > 0:16:55coming in. James, to pick up on Sir John Major's speech, to whom is he
0:16:55 > 0:17:02talking do you think? Is there any body of opinion that backs that?
0:17:02 > 0:17:06There's a growing body of opinion in the Tory party, who argue this:
0:17:06 > 0:17:10They say theer to party north of the border will never revive, until
0:17:10 > 0:17:15the debate in Scottish politics is about how you raise money as well
0:17:15 > 0:17:18as how you spend it. The answer to that question is fiscal autonomy.
0:17:18 > 0:17:24At the same time you'd have fewer Scottish seats at Westminster,
0:17:24 > 0:17:27making it easier in the current conditions, for theers to to form
0:17:27 > 0:17:30mayort governments. There are a large number of people attracted to
0:17:30 > 0:17:34this idea. John Major is saying something that people close to
0:17:34 > 0:17:37David Cameron think and putting the argument out there and giving it a
0:17:37 > 0:17:45shove along and allowing David Cameron to see how opinion reacts
0:17:45 > 0:17:49to this. You think he might be testing the water on that? A bit of
0:17:49 > 0:17:53outriding here going on. What do you think this will mean to the
0:17:53 > 0:17:59grassrootser to vote in Scotland? What will they make of all of this?
0:17:59 > 0:18:03It depends whether you're talking about the existing Tory vote in
0:18:03 > 0:18:11Scotland, which is still pretty hostile to devolution. There are
0:18:11 > 0:18:14people around who take it as the thing to abolish the Scottish
0:18:14 > 0:18:19Parliament. But there is still a powerful stream inside the Scottish
0:18:19 > 0:18:21Conservative Party which thinks that way. But leaving them aside,
0:18:21 > 0:18:27obviously the main task for the Scottish Conservative Party if it's
0:18:27 > 0:18:32not just going to waste away, dwindle away to nothing, is to find
0:18:32 > 0:18:37new sources of support in the country at large. As we know it's
0:18:37 > 0:18:42just been flatlining since 1999. It's failed to increase its vote at
0:18:42 > 0:18:46all. It wants to win extra votes, it has to do something. I think it
0:18:46 > 0:18:54has to do something big, after three Scottish elections in which
0:18:54 > 0:18:58it's made no progress at all. fiscal autonomy allows A particular
0:18:58 > 0:19:03Conservative policy to be brought to the fore, a policy very dear to
0:19:03 > 0:19:08Conservative hearts that the state is too big and we must seek ways of
0:19:08 > 0:19:12limiting the state and expenditure in particular. Fiscal autonomy in
0:19:13 > 0:19:18Scotland is the only way in which the Scottish Conservative Party can
0:19:18 > 0:19:22tap into that particular account of thinking. Which is present not only
0:19:22 > 0:19:28in Conservative voters but also among many other Scots who vote for
0:19:28 > 0:19:36other parties at moment. But from what you're saying, can this be
0:19:36 > 0:19:39aical cue lated move to outflank Labour, to be seen to be protecting
0:19:39 > 0:19:43Scottish interests, that's the perception they would want to put
0:19:43 > 0:19:47forward. Is this borne out of clever strategic thinking or
0:19:47 > 0:19:52desperation? For the Scottish Conservatives to look more Scottish
0:19:52 > 0:19:56than they are already, would not be very difficult. But they're a long
0:19:56 > 0:20:00way than appearing more Scottish than the Scottish Labour Party. If
0:20:00 > 0:20:05they outflanked Labour that would be a bonus, but I don't think
0:20:05 > 0:20:09that's a particular, one of the main aims of this policy. Where it
0:20:09 > 0:20:16might help the Conservatives is actually against the Lib Dems. The
0:20:16 > 0:20:20Lib Dems were crushed in the latest Scottish election and Lib Dems
0:20:20 > 0:20:26mainly occupy suburban or rural Westminster seats, where the
0:20:26 > 0:20:32Conservatives might start to make a come back. But I think the main
0:20:32 > 0:20:40consideration should be that the Scottish Conservative Party has to
0:20:40 > 0:20:46reinvent itself. It's been stagnant Forfar too long. This policy, this
0:20:46 > 0:20:49new idea for the Conservatives any way, of fiscal autonomy seems to be
0:20:49 > 0:20:53the one big thing, they need something big, the one thing that
0:20:53 > 0:20:58might start to turn the tide for them. It's not going to happen
0:20:58 > 0:21:02overnight. OK. Fairly briefly, if you don't mind, David Cameron's
0:21:02 > 0:21:07comments on the referendum, what was that all about, that actually
0:21:07 > 0:21:11it was about government and not political timing. Were you reading
0:21:11 > 0:21:16into that? I interviewed David Cameron for the Spectator. He said
0:21:16 > 0:21:23look, I want to respect Scotland and respect the Scottish Executive.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27I'm not going to call a referendum. But if Alex Salmond wants to turn
0:21:27 > 0:21:31this into he needles continuously and then he wants him to respond,
0:21:31 > 0:21:34then maybe it should be put to a vote. If you don't want the vote
0:21:34 > 0:21:39now, behave. That's the message David Cameron is trying to send to
0:21:40 > 0:21:45Alex Salmond. We have to leave this there -- it there. Thank you both
0:21:45 > 0:21:52very much. Very quick look at tomorrow's papers. The Daily Record
0:21:52 > 0:22:02leading with "Violated, Brown's anguish over how Sun used their
0:22:02 > 0:22:09anguish over how Sun used their sick son's medical reports". And in
0:22:09 > 0:22:13the Scotsman, Brown's son was target of Murdoch hacking. And it's
0:22:13 > 0:22:19saying police protection sold royal contacts. Also the Times, Murdoch