:00:02. > :00:11.to see how the scandal has changed the way the country sees the
:00:11. > :00:14.British press. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:
:00:14. > :00:16.More on the allegations by Gordon Brown and others in the News
:00:17. > :00:18.International scandal. Is there now a danger that public revulsion
:00:19. > :00:21.could turn into an attack on press freedom?
:00:21. > :00:24.And house prices are flat, mortgage lending is down and would-be
:00:24. > :00:28.sellers won't lower there prices. Has the housing market, to all
:00:28. > :00:31.intents and purposes, ground to a halt?
:00:31. > :00:34.Good evening. As you may just have seen, the News International
:00:34. > :00:37.hacking story is not losing momentum. It's clear the House of
:00:37. > :00:40.Commons will unite in an unprecedented way tomorrow to try
:00:40. > :00:42.to derail the Murdoch bid to control BskyB, and the share prices
:00:42. > :00:48.indicate a considerable loss of confidence in the Murdoch magic
:00:48. > :00:51.touch. Shortly, I will be speaking to two former newspaper editors,
:00:51. > :01:01.but first, Laura Bicker has been assessing the impact of Gordon
:01:01. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:07.Brown's intervention. They have never been easy
:01:07. > :01:17.bedfellows. News International have been cosy with Blair, but with
:01:17. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:26.Brown, this was the response. They withdrew the Sun newspaper support.
:01:26. > :01:31.But Gordon Brown said the real body blow came in 2006. This normally
:01:31. > :01:35.private politician found his family thrust into the spotlight just as
:01:35. > :01:40.they were dealing with the diagnosis of cystic fibrosis. Their
:01:40. > :01:50.anguish became front-page news. The former prime minister says Labour
:01:50. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:56.has devastated. In tears. Your son is going to be broadcast across the
:01:56. > :02:04.media. We are thinking about a were family, but there is nothing a you
:02:04. > :02:14.can do about it when you are in the public eye. Gordon Brown did not
:02:14. > :02:14.
:02:14. > :02:24.sever ties with the Murdochs. This afternoon and News International
:02:24. > :02:49.
:02:49. > :02:55.denied they had hacked his son's But Gordon Brown is convinced he
:02:55. > :03:05.was targeted by News International. I had my bank accounts broken into.
:03:05. > :03:05.
:03:05. > :03:10.I had my lawyer's files effectively blagged. My tax return went missing
:03:10. > :03:17.at one point. Medical records had been broken into. I don't know how
:03:17. > :03:22.all this happened, but I do know one thing - that in two of these
:03:22. > :03:28.instances there is absolute proof that News International was
:03:28. > :03:32.responsible for hiring people to get this information. I also know
:03:32. > :03:36.that the people that they work with are criminals. If that is the case,
:03:36. > :03:41.the Scottish government said there should be an inquiry north of the
:03:41. > :03:46.border. If there has been a breach of the lot in Scotland, it should
:03:46. > :03:51.be investigated by the Scottish police and people will be brought
:03:51. > :04:00.to book by the Scottish police. Tonight, Rupert Murdoch and Rebekah
:04:00. > :04:05.Brooks had been summoned to appear before eight Select Committee -- a
:04:05. > :04:10.select committee. When the record of my time as Prime Minister is
:04:10. > :04:13.looked at, it will show that we stood up to News International and
:04:13. > :04:19.we refuse to support their commercial ambitions when we
:04:19. > :04:23.thought they were against the public interest. Hacking or
:04:23. > :04:27.blurring of journalistic boundaries, with nearly 4,000 victims, it is
:04:27. > :04:30.certain there are more revelations to come.
:04:30. > :04:32.I'm joined now from Edinburgh by Harry Reid, former editor of the
:04:32. > :04:38.Herald, and from London by Tim Luckhurst, former editor of the
:04:38. > :04:47.Scotsman and now Professor of Journalism at Kent University. What
:04:47. > :04:51.do you make of this extraordinary situation that MPs will almost
:04:51. > :04:57.unanimously vote against the Murdochs? They are looking for some
:04:57. > :05:01.kind of revenge. I think politicians, not all of them, but a
:05:01. > :05:06.lot of them had been toadying up to Murdoch and other newspaper
:05:06. > :05:10.proprietors over the years and I think they privately resent this.
:05:11. > :05:18.They are probably feeling a bit guilty. That is the psychology of
:05:18. > :05:23.the situation. What do you think, Tim? Even if they condemn the
:05:23. > :05:33.Murdoch bid by a claim, it doesn't technically derail it, does it?
:05:33. > :05:39.doesn't, but I think it is derailed and I will be surprised if News
:05:39. > :05:48.Corporation buys the remaining 61 % of the shares in BSkyB. The British
:05:48. > :05:58.press has behaved badly in the past, but the history of self regulation
:05:58. > :06:08.has survived. There is a lot of animosity towards the press. I
:06:08. > :06:09.
:06:09. > :06:14.think MPs are feeling animosity over the whole expenses scandal.
:06:14. > :06:18.Did you think that? I think it is right. I don't think this is the
:06:18. > :06:22.moment for change. I think the self regulation is clearly not working
:06:22. > :06:26.and is not fit for purpose anymore. There needs to be a new system, but
:06:27. > :06:33.whatever it is, I don't think the current emotional climate is
:06:33. > :06:37.conducive to a sensible look at it. I think we need a bit of time to
:06:37. > :06:43.calm down. The whole nation seems to be in a frenzy at the moment
:06:43. > :06:52.over this. You say that sounds a bit weak, but people will look at
:06:52. > :07:02.this and say, journalists at News International and elsewhere have
:07:02. > :07:07.behaved appallingly. Now we have journalists complaining they may be
:07:07. > :07:13.regulated properly. What I am saying is no-one is objecting to
:07:13. > :07:18.being a regulated properly. What I am saying that the new system must
:07:18. > :07:23.not be done in this current climate of frenzy. We have to wait a bit.
:07:23. > :07:28.That is what I meant by being a week. It is sensible to wait. I
:07:28. > :07:38.don't think you can say overnight eight new system can be produced
:07:38. > :07:40.
:07:40. > :07:45.with this great political anger. -- overnight a new system. There does
:07:45. > :07:51.need to be a new system, but there is an irony at the moment.
:07:51. > :07:55.Newspapers create panic, but now they are the victim of it. Yes, we
:07:55. > :07:59.need a new system that is not dominated by a couple of large
:08:00. > :08:05.newspaper groups. We need a system in which serving editors are not
:08:05. > :08:13.sitting in judgment over their peers. I think that is right and I
:08:13. > :08:19.am a member of a campaign that has asked for an independent judicial
:08:19. > :08:21.inquiry into what has happened. There needs to be independent
:08:21. > :08:26.regulation and it cannot be controlled by the Government.
:08:26. > :08:31.Britain has shown to the world an example of free press holding a
:08:31. > :08:38.free government to account. We have a raucous and sometimes unpleasant
:08:38. > :08:42.press, but we have a good press. If we surrender self regulation, I
:08:42. > :08:48.wonder how many other governments will wonder what to do. We need to
:08:48. > :08:55.set an example. Harry is right. We need some calm and recognition that
:08:55. > :09:02.politicians are not always acting in the public interest. At the
:09:02. > :09:07.moment they are acting in a self interested fashion. Many people
:09:07. > :09:12.will look at this and say that the hacks are protesting too much. No-
:09:12. > :09:16.one is actually proposing statutory legislation to control the press,
:09:16. > :09:24.even though there is a general atmosphere in the air that
:09:24. > :09:27.something will have to be put in place to replace the PCC. The fact
:09:27. > :09:31.there are no specific proposals is part of the process I am talking
:09:31. > :09:37.about. The second inquiry that Cameron is setting up obviously
:09:37. > :09:44.will be looking at this particular area. Can I just say that the press
:09:44. > :09:54.is in the dock at the moment, but so is the police. We must not
:09:54. > :09:56.
:09:57. > :10:02.What would you a new forum of regulation of the newspapers look
:10:02. > :10:06.like? I think, Tim set it out quite well. He has thought it about it
:10:06. > :10:11.more thoroughly than I vfplt my position is simply, I do accept, I
:10:11. > :10:17.have argued in past for the self- regulation by the PCC. I think the
:10:17. > :10:22.PCC, to use the thwart that people have been using all over the place,
:10:22. > :10:26."toothless" we need more effective form of regulation. The problem is
:10:26. > :10:32.sprest specifying that. If you ask journalist what is they want, this
:10:32. > :10:37.tough new regulatory regime to look like, you bet your bottom dollar it
:10:37. > :10:43.will come down to something set up by newspapers who end up regulating
:10:43. > :10:47.themselves to all intent and purposes? We are good at creating
:10:47. > :10:52.public bodies which are general stkpwhren winly independent of
:10:52. > :10:56.government, the BBC is one of them. It isn't beyond the imagination of
:10:56. > :10:59.academics or lawyers to come up with a co-operative organisation, a
:10:59. > :11:04.mutual organisation, which binds newspapers together in contract
:11:04. > :11:08.with each other, in agreement to a set of rules for which they can be
:11:08. > :11:13.penalised if they breach them. That requires intelligence. I think it
:11:13. > :11:17.requires hard work. I think it requires thought and pause. Let's
:11:17. > :11:21.be absolutely candid here. We shouldn't just trust the
:11:21. > :11:24.politicians. They have been far too close to News International and
:11:24. > :11:28.several other newspaper groups as well. I don't dislike Gordon Brown,
:11:28. > :11:31.I recognise he had an extraordinarily hard time. I twiet
:11:31. > :11:34.see what News International is guilty of doing to him and his
:11:34. > :11:37.family. I know. This a British Prime Minister, any British Prime
:11:37. > :11:42.Minister, ought to have had the courage to stand up to Rupert
:11:42. > :11:45.Murdoch and to say, no, on very many occasions. Neither Gordon
:11:45. > :11:50.Brown, nor Tony Blair, or the current Prime Minister have the
:11:50. > :11:55.courage to do that. I think that is not something we should overlook
:11:55. > :11:58.quite so easily as the political classes would like us to. Do you
:11:58. > :12:02.agree about that about Gordon Brown? I think there is truth in
:12:02. > :12:06.that. Very few British Prime Ministers, for many decades, have
:12:06. > :12:09.actually stood up to press baron, not just Rupert Murdoch. There has
:12:09. > :12:19.been a whole history of very senior politicians, including Prime
:12:19. > :12:26.Ministers, toing up to press barons. Two of the supposedly weaker Prime
:12:26. > :12:31.Ministers, Stanley Baldwin and Sir John Major who have actually both
:12:31. > :12:38.been quite tough, certainly in the the sense they have not groveleed
:12:38. > :12:42.to people like Mr Murdoch as, I'm afraid, more recent Prime Ministers
:12:42. > :12:47.have. Harry Reid mentioned the police there. One of the alarming
:12:47. > :12:52.things a lot of people feel about this, we had the MPs' expenses
:12:52. > :12:59.scandal, you know, the banks are completely discredited, now the
:12:59. > :13:03.newspapers are completely discredited now the police are
:13:03. > :13:09.completely discredited. newspapers aren't completely
:13:09. > :13:13.discredited. The News of the World have acted atrociously. It was a
:13:13. > :13:17.newspaper which exposed this wrong- doing, not politicians. It was the
:13:17. > :13:22.Guardian. The Guardian has done a fantastic job on this. It proved,
:13:22. > :13:27.as well as having the worse press in the world, Britain has the best.
:13:27. > :13:33.OK, we will take Tim's point about the newspapers, there is a crisis
:13:33. > :13:37.of the institutions of Britain here, isn't there? Very much so. I mean,
:13:38. > :13:41.Britain is a country in decline economically we all know that. I'm
:13:41. > :13:46.afraid it's also in decline in terms of its public institutions,
:13:46. > :13:50.which is very worrying. I think, in the long-term, the failure of the
:13:50. > :13:54.police in this matter is every bit as serious as the failure of the
:13:54. > :13:58.press. We will have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Now,
:13:58. > :14:00.economists expected a slight recovery in house prices last month,
:14:00. > :14:03.but the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyers has said today
:14:03. > :14:07.house prices from April to June have continued to fall. For those
:14:07. > :14:12.in the market to buy or sell their homes, historically, June has been
:14:12. > :14:19.the time to do it. Today's report suggests that this year the summer
:14:19. > :14:22.holidays for the housing market have come early. June is usually a
:14:22. > :14:27.busy time for the housing market. This year was different. The number
:14:27. > :14:31.of sales have dipped. There were fewer buyer enquiries than any
:14:31. > :14:34.other month this year. There are a lot of homes on the market, which
:14:34. > :14:39.the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyers says puts buyers in a
:14:39. > :14:42.strong negotiating position. The Royal Institute of Chartered
:14:42. > :14:45.Surveyers says almost three quarters of those surveyed in
:14:45. > :14:52.Scotland reported house prices didn't move in June. The more
:14:52. > :14:54.houses are coming on the market here than across the UK as a whole.
:14:54. > :14:58.The Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyers said that homes in good
:14:58. > :15:01.condition are selling more easily than property requiring work. So, a
:15:01. > :15:08.quarter of sellers are spending money improving their property
:15:08. > :15:13.before putting it up for sale. I'm joined now by Keith Denholm of the
:15:13. > :15:17.Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. I'm curious as to
:15:17. > :15:20.whether we are in this for the long-term. Whether we are seeing a
:15:20. > :15:25.change? It looks like, at the moment, to all intents and purposes,
:15:25. > :15:29.there is no housing market. A few houses change hands. Buyers happen
:15:29. > :15:33.to meet sellers who want them. For the vast majority nothing is
:15:33. > :15:39.happening? I don't think so. Chartered surveyers are reporting
:15:39. > :15:43.that the market is in in certain parts of the country are moving, in
:15:43. > :15:47.other parts of the country it's a tough market. The property in best
:15:47. > :15:50.condition and best presented - Council of Mortgage Lenders says
:15:50. > :15:59.that the number of mortgages issued in Scotland in the first quarter of
:15:59. > :16:04.this year was down 20%, a fifth on 2010. In 2010, it was artificially
:16:04. > :16:10.depressed because, in late 2009, people bought houses to take
:16:10. > :16:14.advantage of the stamp duty cut. So, 20% down this year, on an already
:16:14. > :16:18.extremely depressed figure? That's the figures that, obviously, I
:16:18. > :16:21.can't comment further on. What I would say, that we are reporting
:16:21. > :16:27.that some conditions in the market are acceptable. Other conditions
:16:27. > :16:32.are not. There are times when we have to - What are people doing?
:16:32. > :16:35.People who - only five years ago, perhaps, couples in their late 20's,
:16:35. > :16:41.early 30's thinking of having a child would, five years ago, have
:16:41. > :16:45.been getting a mortgage and buying a house. What are they doing now?
:16:45. > :16:49.lot of people are staying in the accommodation they are in. Looking
:16:49. > :16:53.to extend the property. They are happy where they are. In some
:16:53. > :16:57.situations people have to sit there and ride it out. If they are
:16:57. > :17:01.renting, they have to stay renting? That is the case. Many schemes have
:17:01. > :17:06.been brought out, through government assistance, to assist
:17:06. > :17:11.people to move on onto the property ladder. There are, you know better
:17:11. > :17:15.than I do, lots of house that is have been for sale now pretty much
:17:15. > :17:19.since the financial crash started, aren't there? All those people?
:17:19. > :17:23.There are properties there. Some people have to look at what price
:17:23. > :17:27.they have that property on for and readjust their price to reflect the
:17:27. > :17:32.change in market conditions. There may be many properties out there
:17:32. > :17:37.being marketed just now that could benefit from some improvement.
:17:37. > :17:41.know the statistic is hard it get at. What percentage of people
:17:41. > :17:44.selling houses have to sell a house, because, let's say, they live in
:17:44. > :17:49.Glasgow, they have to live in London, they don't have enough
:17:49. > :17:53.money to keep two houses and have to sell. People in that position
:17:53. > :17:58.would lose r their prices because they have no choice. The
:17:58. > :18:03.implication that a lot of people aren't able to meet the prices they
:18:03. > :18:07.are libel to get, means they don't have to sell, they are doing it
:18:07. > :18:10.from choice? They can sell it on 10% loss, when they consider buying
:18:10. > :18:13.another property there is a potential gain they can get. There
:18:13. > :18:17.the price difference between what they are selling their house for
:18:17. > :18:19.and the property they are purchase something not as big as per
:18:19. > :18:24.received received - The implication of what you are saying, about
:18:24. > :18:28.people not lowering the prices they are asking, actually, the majority
:18:28. > :18:32.of the house that is are sold are not because people absolutely have
:18:32. > :18:36.to sell them. In that sense it doesn't really matter, does it?
:18:37. > :18:40.Some people do have that belief that they don't have to sell their
:18:40. > :18:44.property. I think a lot of people do want to sell their property and
:18:45. > :18:49.have been advised to reduce a price to more a relistic level. Right.
:18:49. > :18:55.They are not doing that, are they? In some cases they are not doing
:18:55. > :19:00.that. That's correct. We have to leave it there. The front pages:
:19:00. > :19:09.leave it there. The front pages: first The Sun. What really
:19:09. > :19:15.happening between The Sun and the XPM. The Scotsman: MPs to unite
:19:16. > :19:19.behind anti-Murdoch vote. The Independent. Party leaders unite
:19:19. > :19:24.against Murdoch. The Guardian, Parliament verses Murdoch. Same