:00:02. > :00:08.Lord MacDonald gave to the Home Affairs Committee whilst you were
:00:08. > :00:15.having your chat with Rebekah Brooks? Unfortunately not. I am
:00:15. > :00:19.interested in your reaction. Lord MacDonald, he was hired by eight
:00:19. > :00:25.News Corporation to look at these e-mails that your committee spent a
:00:25. > :00:28.long time on, the file that was given to Harbottle and Lewis, and
:00:29. > :00:32.he told the Home Affairs Committee that when he examined them, it took
:00:32. > :00:37.him between three and five minutes to realise there was evidence of
:00:37. > :00:41.serious criminal wrongdoing, and that he probably went to that News
:00:41. > :00:49.Corporation board who agreed with them and handed the staff to the
:00:49. > :00:52.police. The impression that was being given was this was something
:00:52. > :00:58.terribly complicated, Lord MacDonald is implying it was very
:00:58. > :01:03.simple. We have not had access, but if you are telling me he found that
:01:03. > :01:09.in five minutes, I find that incredible. The very fact that
:01:09. > :01:13.Rebekah Brooks is still denying any knowledge of e-mails, I think it is
:01:13. > :01:20.incredible that she is still behaving in the way she is behaving.
:01:20. > :01:26.She is avoiding any responsibility. You clearly did not find her
:01:26. > :01:30.credible at all. But I did not find a credible at all. It is very
:01:30. > :01:36.difficult when somebody is being asked questions and they simply say
:01:36. > :01:42.they do not know or they were not there. To suggest that she did not
:01:42. > :01:47.know what was going on, private investigators were prying into
:01:47. > :01:49.people's private lives, it is just incredible. At one stage we were
:01:49. > :01:55.told the News of the World management team gets a sum of money
:01:55. > :02:01.and she hands it to them, allows the managing editor to get on with
:02:01. > :02:10.it. I find that incredible. raised the Tommy Sheridan Mafia
:02:10. > :02:14.twice today. -- Tommy Sheridan court case. What are you driving
:02:14. > :02:21.at? I understand you are saying there is wrong information given to
:02:21. > :02:26.the trial. Are you saying there is some question mark over the safety
:02:26. > :02:31.of the conviction of Tommy Sheridan? I am not a legal expert,
:02:31. > :02:37.but it is about justice. I am not defending Tommy Sheridan, but if
:02:37. > :02:45.evidence was withheld from the jury, it was an 826 board, so if evidence
:02:45. > :02:53.was withheld, it is right and proper that should be revisited. --
:02:53. > :02:58.8-6 vote. I am not supporting Tommy Sheridan, but that is the reason.
:02:58. > :03:03.It now also appears that Neil Wallis, the former deputy editor of
:03:03. > :03:07.the News of the World, was advising Andy Coulson when he was running
:03:07. > :03:13.the Conservative Party in the lead- up to the last election. That came
:03:13. > :03:21.out this evening. What is your reaction to that? I have not heard
:03:21. > :03:26.that before, but it is an evolving situation, changing by the hour. It
:03:26. > :03:30.is very difficult to keep up with what is going on. The question of
:03:30. > :03:36.senior politicians talking to News Corporation and senior policemen,
:03:36. > :03:43.it must be reviewed. That will only happen with a fit and proper
:03:43. > :03:47.judicial inquiry. If Rupert Murdoch has the empire he has, the
:03:47. > :03:55.influence he says he has, there is something wrong. Thank you very
:03:55. > :04:00.much. I am joined from Westminster by Stewart Hosie. Stewart Hosie,
:04:00. > :04:04.what do you think we have learned today that we did not know already?
:04:04. > :04:12.I am not sure there has been an awful lot more light shone on the
:04:12. > :04:15.matter. A lot we knew already, but at least it was confirmed. The one
:04:15. > :04:24.thing that did strike me was the degree of contrition they all
:04:24. > :04:29.showed. I think we know this is a serious problem, not just for News
:04:29. > :04:34.Corporation, but for them. They work extremely contrite, and
:04:34. > :04:38.understandably so. There was extreme eloquence when it came to
:04:38. > :04:43.apologising. Slightly less eloquence when it came to
:04:43. > :04:46.explaining exactly how the situation happened. Indeed, and Jim
:04:46. > :04:49.Sheridan is right to some extent that some of the questions were not
:04:49. > :04:55.answered in a way that some of the committee members would have
:04:55. > :05:01.expected. That may be due to the fact there is ongoing police
:05:01. > :05:06.investigations, we will have to wait and see, but I certainly think
:05:06. > :05:11.a little more clarity might have been helpful. Where does this go
:05:11. > :05:17.now? In parliamentary terms, you will break up for the summer. That
:05:18. > :05:22.is the end of these committees. is not, there will be far more of
:05:22. > :05:26.these in the future. Although it was News International today, and
:05:26. > :05:32.there was a feeding frenzy, if we go back to the Operation Motorman
:05:32. > :05:41.in 2006, there were dozens of newspapers, hundreds of journalists,
:05:41. > :05:45.and thousands of data are breaches. I think they were right to have
:05:45. > :05:52.this inquiry, plus the second investigation, and the police work.
:05:52. > :05:56.There is a long way to go, more stones to be turned over. We will
:05:56. > :06:01.then understand what is going on throughout the sector. I understand
:06:01. > :06:06.that, but I meant in a more immediate sense. As I understand it,
:06:06. > :06:10.this was the last day of hearings by these committees. Jim Sheridan
:06:10. > :06:13.was telling me that they would write this up, but it is unlikely
:06:13. > :06:17.that a written report from the media committee will be produced
:06:17. > :06:23.before Parliament returns in September, by which time, the way
:06:23. > :06:30.things are going, anything they say in that report will be awfully --
:06:30. > :06:33.hopelessly outdated. Last year I recall we had a Treasury select
:06:33. > :06:39.committee with the Governor of the Bank of England after Parliament
:06:39. > :06:46.had stopped. I am sure if the committee chairman was determined,
:06:46. > :06:52.then extra sessions would be had. The key thing here is that this
:06:52. > :06:56.have -- let us have the judge led inquiry, and look not just at News
:06:56. > :07:01.International but is industrial- strength phone hacking, the link
:07:01. > :07:06.between the media and the police and senior politicians, and try to
:07:06. > :07:12.find a solution. We cannot go on the way we're going on. Thank you
:07:12. > :07:18.very much. Neither James Murdoch or Rupert Murdoch seemed to know what
:07:18. > :07:21.was going on. The met Commissioner did not know what was going on, and
:07:21. > :07:29.Number Ten did not want to know about the progress of the police
:07:30. > :07:34.inquiry into hacking. We look at a day that raised more questions than
:07:34. > :07:39.answers. The hacking scandal has grown up some interesting questions
:07:39. > :07:43.for those in the media, politics, and the police force. Today, the
:07:43. > :07:51.Murdochs appeared before MPs to explain the operation at News
:07:52. > :08:01.International. Mr Murdoch, at what point did you find out criminality
:08:02. > :08:07.
:08:07. > :08:11.was in debt? Endemic is a very hard way to raise it. I had to be
:08:11. > :08:19.extremely careful, I do not want to prejudice the course of justice
:08:19. > :08:28.which is taking place. That which has been disclosed, I became aware
:08:28. > :08:34.as it became coming out. -- as it came out. I was absolutely shocked,
:08:34. > :08:40.appalled and shamed when I heard about the Milly Dowler case. That
:08:40. > :08:44.was two weeks ago. Rupert Murdoch is the head of corporate governance.
:08:44. > :08:51.He claimed to know little about the practice of some journalists at
:08:51. > :08:59.News of the World. His son claimed not to know much more. If I knew
:08:59. > :09:04.then what we know now, in hindsight, we can look at these things, but we
:09:04. > :09:08.would have taken more action around that, and moved faster to get to
:09:08. > :09:12.the bottom of these allegations. What about the police? Over the
:09:12. > :09:17.past few days we have heard more about the close relationship
:09:17. > :09:20.between senior police officers and executives at News International.
:09:20. > :09:25.The commissioner admitted to enjoying the 18 dinners in five
:09:25. > :09:30.years with News International employees. Around seven of them
:09:30. > :09:37.were with a journalist accused of phone hacking. News International
:09:37. > :09:41.represents 42 % of the press readership. If I am to wrap a dent
:09:41. > :09:51.-- if I am to retain communication with the media, I must meet with
:09:51. > :09:52.
:09:52. > :09:55.them. If they have 42 %, who rely tot to? In front of the Select
:09:55. > :09:59.Committee, Rebekah Brooks denied ever saying that she paid police
:09:59. > :10:04.officers were stories. Why would she, when she could get the
:10:04. > :10:08.information for free? I have never paid a policeman myself, I have
:10:08. > :10:13.never knowingly sanctioned a payment to a police officer, and in
:10:13. > :10:23.my experience of dealing with the police, the information I gave to
:10:23. > :10:24.
:10:24. > :10:28.newspapers comes free of charge. The information comes from -- the
:10:28. > :10:32.information that the police never sanction payments has been
:10:32. > :10:36.questioned in the light of these relationships. They may have been
:10:36. > :10:41.asking the questions today, but politicians do not escape being
:10:41. > :10:47.embroiled in the scandal. Rupert Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks can both
:10:47. > :10:53.court successive prime ministers as personal friends. Which visit to
:10:53. > :10:57.Downing Street are you suggesting? Following the last general election.
:10:57. > :11:03.I was invited within days to have a cup of tea to be banned for my
:11:03. > :11:10.support by Mr Cameron. -- to be thanked. No other conversation took
:11:10. > :11:14.place. You enter through the back door? Yes. I have been asked by
:11:15. > :11:18.Gordon Brown many times as well. The politician I met most was
:11:18. > :11:23.Gordon Brown when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, his wife and my
:11:23. > :11:28.wife struck up a friendship. Our children played together on many
:11:28. > :11:33.occasions. After a day of questioning, some interesting facts
:11:33. > :11:39.have come to light, like the revelation -- revelation that the
:11:39. > :11:42.man who hacked into Milly Dowler's phone had his legal fees paid by
:11:42. > :11:48.News International. It is still a long way from the real story of
:11:48. > :11:50.what happened at News of the World. I am joined by Lorraine Davidson of
:11:50. > :11:58.the times and Ewan Crawford who lectures at the University of the
:11:58. > :12:01.West of Scotland, and from Westminster by a Daily Record
:12:01. > :12:07.journalist. You have been paying close attention to this story. What
:12:07. > :12:15.has leapt out at you? It is tremendous drama and tremendously
:12:15. > :12:23.exciting, but what have we learned? We had the family drama, the father,
:12:23. > :12:29.the Sun, the stepmother in the background, Wendi Deng. That
:12:29. > :12:31.amusing punch with which she defended her husband. She was the
:12:31. > :12:37.second line of defence for Rupert Murdoch, his first line of defence
:12:37. > :12:42.was he was a doddery old man. He did not know what was going on in
:12:42. > :12:46.one part of his empire, his son was young and naive. He did not know
:12:46. > :12:53.what these cheques worth more. It worked for them, I think they got
:12:53. > :12:56.off with it. Murdoch went in with questions about whether he would be
:12:56. > :13:03.chairman of News Corporation. He left with the shares of News
:13:03. > :13:08.Corporation up by six %. While that was going on, the Home Affairs
:13:08. > :13:18.Committee, which had a policeman in front of it, they said some
:13:18. > :13:24.interesting things. I was struck by the evidence by eight Ken McDonald,
:13:24. > :13:28.because in the Murdoch interrogation, the impression was
:13:28. > :13:33.given that there is something the vast and complicated going on, and
:13:33. > :13:36.Ken McDonald said that he looked at e-mails which the legal firm had,
:13:36. > :13:42.and it took me between three to five minutes to work out there was
:13:42. > :13:47.serious criminal offences. It is a direct quote, he said it was
:13:47. > :13:54.blindingly obvious there was illegal activity. You have hit the
:13:54. > :13:59.nail on the head. That is the story. Ken McDonald, former public
:13:59. > :14:03.prosecutor in England, had a quick look at these files, Yates of the
:14:03. > :14:09.Yard had spent a day on them, and concluded in a couple of minutes,
:14:10. > :14:14.we have to go to the police directly with this. News
:14:15. > :14:18.International Board, sorry, News Corporation board, accepted that.
:14:18. > :14:22.Just to be clear, this was not the same information that Yates of the
:14:22. > :14:27.Yard was looking at, this was the information the legal company had
:14:27. > :14:33.been given by the extensive investigation into News
:14:33. > :14:37.International. The other interesting link that Yates gave us
:14:37. > :14:44.today was that he offered to brief Downing Street on the investigation
:14:44. > :14:49.into backing. -- into the phone hacking. A senior official had
:14:49. > :14:54.thrown up his hands and said they did not want to know about it. Sir
:14:54. > :14:59.Paul Stephenson had earlier said that he wanted to discuss Neil
:14:59. > :15:05.Wallis, the former deputy editor of the News of the World who was
:15:05. > :15:08.arrested in connection with phone hacking. He wanted to discuss it
:15:08. > :15:14.with David Cameron but a senior Downing Street figure had warned
:15:14. > :15:20.him off. We have a fire all around the Prime Minister where people
:15:20. > :15:30.around him do not want him to know any within. -- know anything. We
:15:30. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:41.have a similar wall around the Do you think it is going to be
:15:41. > :15:49.damaging for David Cameron? There has said in the Cabinet Office that
:15:49. > :15:54.it is proper for will then not to discuss an ongoing investigation.
:15:54. > :15:58.David Cameron is saying that Andy Coulson may have spoken to some of
:15:58. > :16:03.his old friends at the News of the World, but he is not responsible
:16:03. > :16:07.for that. Today will not be a problem for him because it shows
:16:07. > :16:12.the Prime Minister was not directly involved. There is an interesting
:16:12. > :16:22.side issue. They e-mails did not mention phone hacking, they
:16:22. > :16:34.
:16:34. > :16:43.mentioned other matters. It was interesting because people could be
:16:43. > :16:48.fishing for information. Mr Cameron is in some difficulty there. --
:16:48. > :16:53.verve. He has been on the back fought and tomorrow will be another
:16:53. > :16:59.show trial. It is interesting the lack of support he has had from
:16:59. > :17:05.Cabinet ministers. Boris Johnson has not exactly rushed to the
:17:05. > :17:13.barricades to defend him. David Cameron, for the first time in his
:17:13. > :17:23.leadership of the Conservative Party, is unquestionably Honourable.
:17:23. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:34.-- vulnerable. There are people in the Conservative Party who never
:17:34. > :17:39.
:17:39. > :17:43.really liked him or agree with Ian. -- with him. Yes. This is the
:17:43. > :17:48.moment where Ed Miliband has been able to establish himself as a
:17:48. > :17:53.serious politician and take on David Cameron. It has come together
:17:53. > :17:58.with members of his own party who think he is not this person who
:17:58. > :18:08.walks on water and he is not invincible. The other people in hot
:18:08. > :18:11.
:18:11. > :18:19.water are the police. The works very it -- the words ferrets and
:18:19. > :18:26.sack spring to mind. This is more than an Eccleston moment. Eccleston
:18:26. > :18:36.was about Formula One and cigarette advertising. This is about
:18:36. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:43.listening into a murdered teenager's phone messages. This is
:18:43. > :18:53.about the control of satellite broadcasting, a licence to print
:18:53. > :18:54.
:18:54. > :19:02.money in Britain. Yates linked Wallace to Andy Coulson to David
:19:02. > :19:12.Cameron. I concede this must be mildly embarrassing for David
:19:12. > :19:18.
:19:19. > :19:25.Cameron, but let us get serious. Well, he will have to burn a lot of
:19:25. > :19:35.public credibility doing that. Meanwhile is the figure of George
:19:35. > :19:45.Osborne, who Rebekah Brooks mentioned as the person who had
:19:45. > :19:50.
:19:50. > :20:00.recruited Andy Coulson to Downing Street. When we look up from this
:20:00. > :20:07.
:20:07. > :20:15.crisis, the breeze we feel on our faces is from a variety of other
:20:15. > :20:22.problems. The problem a for the politicians involved in this year's
:20:22. > :20:27.it isn't just over the summer. There will be to inquiries,
:20:27. > :20:35.possibly criminal trials. This just goes on indefinitely. If you are in
:20:35. > :20:41.any way tainted by this, they is no prospect of any relief. Yes, and it
:20:41. > :20:51.is interesting that the House of Commons is working in the public
:20:51. > :20:53.
:20:53. > :20:55.interest, but nothing could be further from the truth. Although
:20:55. > :21:03.they are saying it is in the national interests, this is about
:21:03. > :21:13.politics. We will have to leave it there. Thank you. No prizes for
:21:13. > :21:39.
:21:39. > :21:48.guessing what is on their -- on the Parts of North East England and
:21:48. > :21:56.Scotland seen heavy rain. It will be aware day four of the south-west
:21:56. > :22:05.as well. For the north and north- east, torrential downpours with
:22:05. > :22:11.minor flooding. The South East and southern counties will have a
:22:11. > :22:21.bright start, but showers will develop during the day. Some
:22:21. > :22:23.
:22:23. > :22:33.brightness breaking through the crowds along the western coast.
:22:33. > :22:35.
:22:35. > :22:45.Largely dry in Northern Ireland. Scotland will be dry and bright.
:22:45. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:58.Tomorrow night, heavy showers around. Cloudy conditions and