0:00:05 > 0:00:09conditions who, none the less will contribute to the society. Tonight
0:00:09 > 0:00:12on Newsnight Scotland: 250 riot police from north of the border are
0:00:12 > 0:00:15in Manchester and the Midlands this evening, helping quell what much of
0:00:15 > 0:00:20the media are now calling the English - and not the British -
0:00:20 > 0:00:24riots. How long will they have to stay there to prevent trouble
0:00:24 > 0:00:28flaring up again as soon as they and other police forces leave? And
0:00:28 > 0:00:30will anything be done to stop all this happening again? Good evening.
0:00:30 > 0:00:35The First Minister, Alex Salmond, was quick to reassure the citizenry
0:00:35 > 0:00:38here there are still 17,000 police officers to protect them. Meanwhile
0:00:38 > 0:00:41the streets of English cities appear to be quiet tonight, helped
0:00:41 > 0:00:47no doubt by a massive police presence in London and lashing rain
0:00:47 > 0:00:50further north. Whether this is the end of the matter remains to be
0:00:50 > 0:00:52seen but it leaves one large and rather obvious question, why are
0:00:52 > 0:01:02thousands of people prepared to engage in wholesale looting the
0:01:02 > 0:01:10
0:01:10 > 0:01:17moment they think they can get away Rioters ruled the streets again
0:01:17 > 0:01:26last night. This time it was people in Manchester. Birmingham and West
0:01:26 > 0:01:32Brom edge, who cowered as groups of looters talk up City centres. These
0:01:32 > 0:01:38are symptoms of a broken society. There are parts of our society
0:01:38 > 0:01:42which a broken and sick. When we see children as young as 12 and 13
0:01:42 > 0:01:46looting and laughing, when we see the disgusting sight other injured
0:01:46 > 0:01:52young man with people pretended to help him while they are robbing him,
0:01:52 > 0:02:01it is clear there are things that are badly wrong in asked society.
0:02:01 > 0:02:06Who's broken society is it? -- have in at society. London under siege
0:02:06 > 0:02:11of violence. TV stations around the world a showing pictures of trouble
0:02:11 > 0:02:15and they are describing it as the British riots. The first minister
0:02:15 > 0:02:19says that could damage the reputation of Scotland. He has
0:02:19 > 0:02:23pointed out it is an English and not a British problem. This view
0:02:23 > 0:02:28has been criticised by the opposition who have called him
0:02:28 > 0:02:32small-minded at the time of crisis. Some countries like Germany are
0:02:32 > 0:02:38advising citizens against travelling to the UK. We have a
0:02:38 > 0:02:48huge and important tourist industry. We have the Edinburgh Festival. We
0:02:48 > 0:02:53won't know where to think that Scotland is anything but safe. --
0:02:53 > 0:02:59we want no one. We need to respond to any eventuality. Grampian police
0:02:59 > 0:03:03have sent 250 riot officers down south to help with the unrest was
0:03:03 > 0:03:13up no sign of trouble up here for us but can we afford to be
0:03:13 > 0:03:17complacent? Two Scottish teenagers are in custody tonight charged with
0:03:17 > 0:03:24breach of the police. One is accused of using Facebook to
0:03:24 > 0:03:28encourage people to riots. Glasgow has had a gang problem since the
0:03:28 > 0:03:3430s. Many social issues blighting the English cities can be found
0:03:34 > 0:03:37here as well. Young people in the West of Scotland, from my
0:03:37 > 0:03:41experience, are experiencing the same things as some of these
0:03:41 > 0:03:48youngsters possibly are in big English towns and cities where they
0:03:48 > 0:03:53do feel socially excluded and there is no prospect for jobs, the whole
0:03:53 > 0:03:57family perhaps have not worked. They are also exposed to a lot of
0:03:57 > 0:04:00peer pressure to engage in recreational violence out on the
0:04:00 > 0:04:05streets. The absence of racial tension has been given as a reason
0:04:05 > 0:04:09why Scotland has escaped the disorder. The catalyst for the
0:04:09 > 0:04:14riots in England was the death of a young black man, Mark Duggan, as he
0:04:14 > 0:04:21was arrested by police. This is only part of the story. It is much
0:04:21 > 0:04:26more of a sense of almost a lost generation cometh no value, at no
0:04:26 > 0:04:30respect for any form of order or authority. We see almost a
0:04:30 > 0:04:34reflection of the nature of society we are fast becoming if we do not
0:04:34 > 0:04:40address the combination of issues that results in this kind of
0:04:40 > 0:04:45anarchy really. It was total chaos. So far tonight there have been no
0:04:45 > 0:04:50reports of disorder. Everyone hopes the violence is coming to an end.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Attention is turning to why it started. I'm joined by Professor
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Greg Philo from the University of Glasgow, who has done extensive
0:04:56 > 0:04:58work on role models for children amongst many other things. Alex
0:04:58 > 0:05:01Richardson is the chief executive and founder of the charity,
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Gladiator, which works with young people in Easterhouse here in
0:05:04 > 0:05:14Glasgow. And in the capital is Dr Hugo Gorringe, an expert in public
0:05:14 > 0:05:15
0:05:15 > 0:05:21order policing from the University of Edinburgh. Alex, I am curious
0:05:21 > 0:05:25was do you work with young people. I hope they would not find it
0:05:25 > 0:05:29insulting if I say it is the kind of demographic we have seen
0:05:29 > 0:05:34involved in some of the trouble down in England. I'll their
0:05:34 > 0:05:43differences up here? Do they not have some of the issues that a
0:05:43 > 0:05:48leading to this? Are they not as opportunistic? The east end of
0:05:48 > 0:05:54Glasgow predominantly has a long history mostly of territorial
0:05:54 > 0:06:01problems. Kids cocooned in their own territories, their own gangs.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06We do not have the racial mix you have but, nonetheless,
0:06:06 > 0:06:11territoriality is just as lethal. The same thing you have his kids at
0:06:11 > 0:06:16the bottom end of society who do not have any opportunities
0:06:16 > 0:06:18themselves. Worse than that they have no hope of getting
0:06:19 > 0:06:24opportunities. The politicians I have noticed quite rightly have
0:06:24 > 0:06:30spent a lot of time condemning the riots and all the actions that have
0:06:30 > 0:06:38happened down south. Very few answers come back. What is causing
0:06:38 > 0:06:43the root problems and how do you solve it? You mentioned the problem
0:06:43 > 0:06:48of race. There is a different racial mix. There are certainly a
0:06:48 > 0:06:53lot of black kids in London who have been involved. There has been
0:06:53 > 0:07:03no suggestion it is a result of racial tension. You think the young
0:07:03 > 0:07:05
0:07:05 > 0:07:10people you deal with think the same Taking the racial -- racial issue
0:07:10 > 0:07:14to the side, I think the other issues, people here feel that. That
0:07:14 > 0:07:17can manifest. We're trying to create opportunities for young
0:07:17 > 0:07:23people so they can life progress and character build and hopefully
0:07:23 > 0:07:28become a job ready, if not now, as another date. Have you talked to
0:07:28 > 0:07:30any of the kids about what is happening? The kids that we were
0:07:30 > 0:07:36quiff are enjoying the opportunities that we are trying to
0:07:36 > 0:07:42develop for them. About what is happening? Absolutely. They are
0:07:42 > 0:07:46appalled as anybody else. There is always that danger, for every kid
0:07:46 > 0:07:52that is causing trouble, the other one is stigmatised in the same way.
0:07:52 > 0:07:58You are a young person, you must be a trouble maker. If it was adults,
0:07:58 > 0:08:03you would not tar every adult with the same brush. This country, in
0:08:03 > 0:08:09the last two or three years, has no sense of itself. One of the things
0:08:09 > 0:08:14that was mentioned is one of the possible causes in the term of the
0:08:14 > 0:08:20word greed in terms of looting. Greed applies to a lot of levels.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24We look at society in last three years, you have seen the bonuses
0:08:24 > 0:08:30with the banks, the political scandal with expenses for MPs, just
0:08:30 > 0:08:38recently you have seen News International, in terms of phone
0:08:38 > 0:08:42hacking. That's all caused by a breed. Is that reasonable, there is
0:08:42 > 0:08:46no particular reason to think that someone who is in Clapham necking
0:08:47 > 0:08:51and mobile-phone out of a shop because they can and thinking that
0:08:51 > 0:08:55this is great fun, is particularly thinking well I am just doing the
0:08:55 > 0:09:02same because of the News International scandal or something
0:09:02 > 0:09:06like that. It I think there is a disconnection now it between reward
0:09:06 > 0:09:12and effort. People are seen to be making piles of money as fast as
0:09:12 > 0:09:16they possibly can. That is being shown to us every single day.
0:09:16 > 0:09:21Things right tax avoidance and the simple making of money. Do you
0:09:21 > 0:09:24think young people involved in this are aware of these? I think the see
0:09:24 > 0:09:29a society they are excluded from and where some people have done
0:09:29 > 0:09:36incredibly well. If you are living in London you can see fabulous
0:09:36 > 0:09:43wealth next two incredible poverty. What has happened in the last 30
0:09:43 > 0:09:51years is a free-market society, with a top ten %, top 5%, have
0:09:51 > 0:09:57really enriched themselves end extraordinary way. The top 5% have
0:09:57 > 0:10:02of four trillion pounds' worth of personal wealth. Dr Hugo Gorringe,
0:10:02 > 0:10:07I am interested in you're a prospective it. Partly, who these
0:10:07 > 0:10:11people are. If we are thinking about having earnest discussions
0:10:11 > 0:10:16about the problems of youth in London, particularly black youth,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19it is all about parenting and role models, when you look at the people
0:10:19 > 0:10:24who are appearing in the magistrates' court today, you get a
0:10:24 > 0:10:29rather different picture. There is a guy who was a teaching assistant
0:10:30 > 0:10:34in a school, there was a guy who was a life-saver in a pool at a
0:10:34 > 0:10:39health club, there were lots of students, including several white
0:10:40 > 0:10:44students, there was a guy who was accused of smashing in a police car,
0:10:44 > 0:10:50it turned out here was in the third year of a sports degree at Clapham
0:10:50 > 0:10:55College. They are just not, when you see them in court, looking like
0:10:55 > 0:11:00their image we have projected on them. Not a toll. I have agreed
0:11:00 > 0:11:05with the previous two speakers as well. If we are talking about terms
0:11:05 > 0:11:13of social responsibility, then that begins at the top as well. There is
0:11:13 > 0:11:17been a long period of people abdicating responsibility. In terms
0:11:17 > 0:11:24of the riots and who is taking part in the rioting and looting, I think
0:11:24 > 0:11:28we need to differentiate between why these riots were triggered,
0:11:28 > 0:11:34what led to them kicking off in the first place, and then those who are
0:11:34 > 0:11:41taking part more opportunity is -- more opportunist Italy, because
0:11:41 > 0:11:51shops are being trashed, because they are passing by. Studies of
0:11:51 > 0:11:51
0:11:51 > 0:11:56riots, both in the UK and in France, suggest that they tended to be
0:11:56 > 0:11:59triggered of where there are populations suffering from forms of
0:11:59 > 0:12:06economic deprivation and where there is a history of antipathy
0:12:06 > 0:12:13with the police. The trouble with that is that I am coming back to
0:12:13 > 0:12:20the people appearing in court, which... The media will peck yet my
0:12:20 > 0:12:24teaching assistance -- will pick up the teaching assistants. But maybe
0:12:24 > 0:12:30the people who are doing this are not uneducated, maybe the people
0:12:30 > 0:12:35doing this are not a literate. would fit in with what we have just
0:12:35 > 0:12:41said. That would fit in with them thinking why should the bankers get
0:12:41 > 0:12:45all the money? This current generation of youths RN remarkably
0:12:45 > 0:12:52good form compared to their predecessors. They are shrewder as
0:12:52 > 0:12:59to what is going on. One in four young people is currently
0:12:59 > 0:13:02unemployed in this country. When you say they are more aware of
0:13:02 > 0:13:09politics and the sort of things that Greg was talking about, what
0:13:09 > 0:13:13you mean by that? Back to what I was speaking about earlier, the
0:13:13 > 0:13:17powers of society at the top over the last two or three years that
0:13:17 > 0:13:21should be the role model to offer hope to people, it is bad enough
0:13:21 > 0:13:25when you do not have a job, but if you have no faith in the
0:13:25 > 0:13:28opportunity scheme... I understand that you think that is a problem,
0:13:28 > 0:13:33but are you telling me that when you go to work with young people in
0:13:33 > 0:13:39Easterhouse, that is what they are saying to you? That is what it --
0:13:39 > 0:13:44we employ 20 young people, their average to Bela banquette at this
0:13:44 > 0:13:51moment in time is �40 billion, if you invested that money into a
0:13:51 > 0:13:54three Scotland's -- Scottish cities, every young person would be working.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59They would be taking their younger siblings of the street and out of
0:13:59 > 0:14:04trouble. It would give it peer learning. Those opportunities do
0:14:04 > 0:14:09not exist at the bottom level. I am saying to you is that I
0:14:09 > 0:14:13understand you believe that, what I and Queen is whether the young
0:14:13 > 0:14:17people in Easterhouse and other areas of Glasgow, are you really
0:14:17 > 0:14:22saying they are coming to you with some work out a political analysis
0:14:22 > 0:14:28that tells them it is unfair to them because of bankers salaries?
0:14:28 > 0:14:32No, what I am saying is that if you have a more increased general
0:14:32 > 0:14:35awareness that your predecessors, that can add to the feeling of
0:14:35 > 0:14:39hopelessness and despair. Why should I bother to stay on the
0:14:39 > 0:14:42straight and narrow? What chance have I got to get somewhere when
0:14:42 > 0:14:49other people at higher levels are not showing the same moral
0:14:49 > 0:14:52standards? Dr Hugo Gorringe, it's like the changing the subject today
0:14:52 > 0:14:59it question of this situation politically and in terms of
0:14:59 > 0:15:02policing, we were getting to the stage where this was almost about
0:15:02 > 0:15:09the state power. Not in the sense that there was a revolutionary
0:15:09 > 0:15:13group wanting to take over society, but poor Boris Johnson's London
0:15:13 > 0:15:19administration, the Metropolitan Police, and David Cameron's
0:15:19 > 0:15:22government had visibly failed to control the capital city of the
0:15:22 > 0:15:29United Kingdom. Presumably, from the point of view of any state, you
0:15:29 > 0:15:34cannot allow that to happen. In a democratic society it is very
0:15:34 > 0:15:40difficult to police mass disorder on this scale. Public order tactics
0:15:40 > 0:15:44are not designed to deal with these numbers of people. We do not have
0:15:44 > 0:15:49enough police officers on the streets to contain, arrest order
0:15:49 > 0:15:54spares the number of people who have been engaged in these riots.
0:15:54 > 0:16:02They have to show that they can do that over the next few days. Yes,
0:16:02 > 0:16:07they do. I think they are beginning to do that. The tactical flooding
0:16:07 > 0:16:11the streets of London with officers there seems to have had some impact.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Interestingly, tonight there has been a bit of a stand-off in south-
0:16:15 > 0:16:19east London between people who were coming out into the streets to
0:16:19 > 0:16:22defend their property, there have been allegations that their English
0:16:22 > 0:16:27Defence League was there, I do not know if that was true, the police
0:16:27 > 0:16:31seem very keen to get them off the streets as well. If you are the
0:16:31 > 0:16:34state, having vigilante groups, even though many people would
0:16:35 > 0:16:38sympathise with people defending their own property, from the
0:16:38 > 0:16:45state's point of view that is almost as dangerous as letters, it
0:16:45 > 0:16:48says you have lost control. Yes, it also says that but eats away at
0:16:48 > 0:16:56their legitimacy of the police and says they are not in control of the
0:16:56 > 0:17:00situation and not able to differentiate between who's doing
0:17:00 > 0:17:06what. It was interesting that there was a Guardian article this evening
0:17:06 > 0:17:11suggesting that this was not the time for baton rounds and for water
0:17:11 > 0:17:16cannon. His argument was about police legitimacy and he said that
0:17:16 > 0:17:20if we start using more aggressive forms of policing, if we start
0:17:20 > 0:17:24tolerating forms of vigilantism, then we may win the battle in terms
0:17:24 > 0:17:30of getting people off the streets but we lose the war because we lose
0:17:30 > 0:17:34people's respect and legitimacy. The rebate issue is that
0:17:34 > 0:17:41politicians have not grasp that these are small numbers of people.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44If you exclude 8 million people, the bottom 10% of our society have
0:17:44 > 0:17:49literally less than nothing. They have literally no wealth of any
0:17:50 > 0:17:53sort. That is 6 million people. You have got at least 8 million people
0:17:53 > 0:17:59who are going nowhere in our society, that is a huge number of
0:17:59 > 0:18:04people. What did you mean when you said they were a small number?
0:18:04 > 0:18:11number protesting his tiny relative to 80 million. Relative to having
0:18:11 > 0:18:15to police and area, it is still several thousand people. Suppose it
0:18:15 > 0:18:19becomes 80,000, we are moving towards a division of wealth which
0:18:19 > 0:18:26is close to Victorian Britain. When that happened in Victorian Britain
0:18:26 > 0:18:33and the had riots, it was two or 300,000 people. You had six cities
0:18:33 > 0:18:38under siege in 1831. People burnt down Nottingham Castle, there was
0:18:39 > 0:18:43huge disorder. If you exclude a huge number of people... Are you
0:18:43 > 0:18:49suggesting this could happen? course it could get worse. If Nick
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Clegg suggested there would be riots if the Tories get in, before
0:18:53 > 0:18:59the election he said if the Tories get into power there is a real
0:18:59 > 0:19:07danger of riots in the streets. want to ask you about the police,
0:19:07 > 0:19:13do you think... Do you think that there are feelings towards the
0:19:13 > 0:19:20police that you have seen in London, reflected in Glasgow? Is there more
0:19:20 > 0:19:24of a bond or more trust? We work closely with community safety. We
0:19:24 > 0:19:30do link up from time to time and engage in this and try to break
0:19:30 > 0:19:34down barriers. What I would like to touch on is in terms of vigilantism
0:19:34 > 0:19:39we saw this in the 60s in Easterhouse growing up. Peons were
0:19:39 > 0:19:44trying to break up the gangs. Vigilantism rates start -- starts
0:19:44 > 0:19:48up with good causes. In London, right-wing extremist groups
0:19:48 > 0:19:54attached themselves to this and it can become a race war. What
0:19:54 > 0:19:59happened in Glasgow, it was parents? In the 1960s, you have got
0:19:59 > 0:20:07to bear in mind that the housing schemes in Glasgow were built with
0:20:07 > 0:20:10no amenities. The boredom led to the formation of the gangs. The
0:20:10 > 0:20:15periods stepped in to try to prevent it. It was too late.
0:20:15 > 0:20:21have got to leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed. Now, the
0:20:21 > 0:20:27front pages for tomorrow. They are all about, as you would expect, no-
0:20:27 > 0:20:33one else must die. That is the front page of the times. Hour six