:00:03. > :00:12.leaders. The question is, where did the power go and is it too late to
:00:12. > :00:16.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, after days of rioting in English
:00:16. > :00:19.cities, Parliament debates what's happened. But have they cast any
:00:19. > :00:24.light on the issue and with thousands of police still on the
:00:24. > :00:27.streets, what happens next? Also tonight: Is there any truth in the
:00:27. > :00:30.idea that Scotland is somehow more left wing than England?
:00:30. > :00:33.Good evening. Well, thousands of police - including many from
:00:33. > :00:36.Scotland - are still on the streets of English cities tonight.
:00:36. > :00:45.Parliament was robust in its condemnation, but are we any nearer
:00:45. > :00:49.to solving the issue, or even to asking the right questions?
:00:49. > :00:53.Hundreds of specialist police officers have been deployed from
:00:53. > :00:58.Scotland's eight forces in support of colleagues in England and it is
:00:58. > :01:02.right and proper that everything is provided to assist areas which have
:01:02. > :01:04.been hit by rioting. Could the Prime Minister confirm what
:01:04. > :01:09.conversations he or the Home Secretary have had with the
:01:09. > :01:12.Scottish government about the support. I am not aware of any
:01:12. > :01:15.conversations but what I am aware of is the excellent rolled the
:01:15. > :01:19.Scottish police force played in helping the West Midlands force and
:01:19. > :01:23.I saw the impact for myself in Birmingham and I think it is good
:01:23. > :01:27.that our forces can co-operate in this way. The vast majority of the
:01:27. > :01:30.people in Scotland share the anger and frustration of the victims of
:01:30. > :01:35.these crimes but they are disappointed with the statement of
:01:35. > :01:38.the First Minister that this was an English problem. I have to say that
:01:38. > :01:43.people are extremely disappointed but I welcome the statement from
:01:43. > :01:50.the Prime Minister that he has been taking advice from Strathclyde
:01:50. > :01:56.Police. If the judicial system in Scotland took seriously the come --
:01:56. > :01:59.concerns of the police and impose sentences? I particularly admire
:01:59. > :02:02.the work Strathclyde have done on gangs and I want to make sure we
:02:02. > :02:04.learn that across the United Kingdom.
:02:04. > :02:07.I'm joined from Edinburgh by George Kerevan, Editor-in-Chief of the
:02:07. > :02:13.Newsnet Scotland website, and here in Glasgow by Ross Martin, Chief
:02:13. > :02:20.Executive of the think tank the Centre for Scottish Public Policy.
:02:20. > :02:26.Was that just a giant exhalation of hot air or was there any substance,
:02:26. > :02:30.I mean the parliamentary debate? There was a police officer saying
:02:30. > :02:33.it made not a jot of the operational decisions of the police
:02:33. > :02:37.whether Parliament came back into power or not and I think he was
:02:37. > :02:40.truly reflecting the separation between how police go about their
:02:40. > :02:45.business and the lack of power politicians have. Some of them
:02:45. > :02:48.might want to have more power over the police than they do.
:02:48. > :02:54.mixture of political theatre and judicial action, if you like, it
:02:54. > :02:59.does seem to be working, doesn't it? Everyone stands up, nations are
:02:59. > :03:04.united, the very visible police arrests, saying if you are thinking
:03:04. > :03:10.of going out this weekend, this is what will happen, it does seem to
:03:10. > :03:14.be having an effect? But I'm not sure if politicians roaming the
:03:14. > :03:18.streets and getting their pictures taken with clean-up squads with
:03:18. > :03:22.brooms is actually changing the impact for those who might be
:03:22. > :03:29.rioting. It is because the police have changed their tactic and are
:03:29. > :03:34.going for a mirage -- a more robust method. I said I would never ask
:03:34. > :03:37.anyone to make forecasts of what would happen but the fact is, we
:03:37. > :03:41.still have 17,000 police on the streets of London and we have
:03:41. > :03:45.thousands in Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, it is quite
:03:45. > :03:49.difficult to know how this will pan out? It may well be that the
:03:49. > :03:54.weather means everyone gets fed up and that is the end of it but how
:03:54. > :04:00.would you wind a situation like this down? Like you, I am loath to
:04:00. > :04:05.make predictions. Sadly, right sorry fact of urban life and always
:04:05. > :04:08.have been. They kind of follow a trajectory. They are short-lived,
:04:08. > :04:16.unless there is a serious underlying problem which needs to
:04:16. > :04:20.be resolved, writes tend to be short-lived. They tend to have a
:04:20. > :04:25.detonator, the excitement of the two or three nights and then they
:04:25. > :04:33.die down. There might be a flare-up at the weekend but IAA think the
:04:33. > :04:41.worst is over. Do you think or we have seen over the last week it is
:04:41. > :04:44.some sort of watershed event or, it is obviously important that it is
:04:44. > :04:48.more widespread than anything we have seen, but do you think
:04:48. > :04:53.politically or culturally it is a watershed event or will it take its
:04:53. > :04:58.place in a long line of things which have happened? That is up to
:04:58. > :05:03.the politicians. I disagree with Ross. It is important that the
:05:03. > :05:07.politicians respond to the feeling there was over the weekend, that
:05:07. > :05:12.the police have disappeared and this was allowed to happen and now
:05:12. > :05:17.the politicians are back and they need to learn a lesson. I distance
:05:17. > :05:22.myself a little from some of my SNP colleagues, you cannot say Scotland
:05:22. > :05:26.could not be involved. It is young men who riot by and large, the
:05:26. > :05:32.young men who do not go to university and do not have a career,
:05:32. > :05:38.in the modern society, they are the bottom of the social heap. That is
:05:38. > :05:42.a tinder. It does not excuse anybody to go out and write, and
:05:42. > :05:47.personally I would have brought out the water cannon, but it is a
:05:47. > :05:53.tinder. I'm curious as to whether you think this will be seen as a
:05:53. > :05:57.watershed event. In a way that the riots in Brixton were in the 1980s?
:05:57. > :06:02.I do not think so because there does not seem to be a clear reason
:06:02. > :06:05.for the outbreak of violence and disorder in all the parts of
:06:05. > :06:11.England. There seemed to be very localised different reasons which
:06:11. > :06:18.have come together and boiled up and fermented into this mass action.
:06:18. > :06:21.There is not a clear underlying cause. To blame the unrest on cuts
:06:21. > :06:28.in educational maintenance allowance as some politicians were
:06:28. > :06:33.trying to do, is complete rubbish. To try and attach it to elements of
:06:33. > :06:37.social policy in that direction is completely wrong. Don't go away,
:06:37. > :06:40.both of you, we will be back in a moment.
:06:40. > :06:43.Now, the Guardian caused a flutter recently with a front page story
:06:43. > :06:46.about plans by Ed Miliband to reduce the voting power of the
:06:46. > :06:49.unions at the Labour conference. The Left immediately saw it as an
:06:49. > :06:55.attempt to sideline trades unions as soon as Labour has spent their
:06:55. > :06:58.money on an election. It coincided with the 40th anniversary of the
:06:58. > :07:01.Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work IN and the establishment of a think
:07:01. > :07:11.tank dedicated to the memory of Jimmy Reid. Derek Bateman asks if
:07:11. > :07:13.
:07:13. > :07:19.there's a revival of the Left. Scotland likes to portray itself as
:07:19. > :07:29.a place connected to its working- class past, leading to a heightened
:07:29. > :07:32.
:07:32. > :07:38.sense of social solidarity. It is a romantic notion. And we will never
:07:38. > :07:44.last unless you are giving the same solidarity you have been giving us
:07:44. > :07:48.for the last 13 weeks. You help pass and we will keep on fighting.
:07:48. > :07:53.Voting patterns certainly seemed to show we are a country of the broad
:07:53. > :07:56.left. Labour and the SNP by for the upper hand. There remains a liberal
:07:56. > :08:02.tradition also Socialists and Greens have been elected to
:08:02. > :08:12.Holyrood and since 1987, the Tories have been in retreat. So why has
:08:12. > :08:12.
:08:12. > :08:22.there been a dearth of left ideas? Govan was the place to launch the
:08:22. > :08:24.
:08:24. > :08:30.think tank be Jimmy Reid Foundation. These are former shipyard workers.
:08:30. > :08:40.I came because I was made aware of the Jimmy Reid Foundation. I was in
:08:40. > :08:40.
:08:40. > :08:46.the shipyards for 40 years continuously. IAA spent 40 years
:08:46. > :08:51.working and I was a personal friend of Jimmy Reid and political and
:08:51. > :08:57.social colleague of Jimmy Reid. think the idea of the Jimmy Reid
:08:57. > :09:02.Foundation is excellent. I have been observing the left over the
:09:02. > :09:06.years. There have been so many citizens. Ed Miliband is floating
:09:06. > :09:12.the idea of limiting the unions' voting power at Labour conference.
:09:12. > :09:16.A classic move against the left. Shades here of John Smith with one-
:09:16. > :09:26.member, one-vote and Tony Blair closing-down Clause Four, steps
:09:26. > :09:31.
:09:31. > :09:41.which breed suspicion among Face see the unions as a bit of
:09:41. > :09:45.
:09:45. > :09:52.embarrassment. -- they see it the unions. The Labour Party leadership
:09:52. > :09:56.always wants to marginalise the unions. The irony is if the Labour
:09:56. > :10:04.Party leadership was a bit more minded to take the policies of the
:10:04. > :10:09.unions at face value, the Labour Party's stance and marks the public
:10:09. > :10:16.would increase. The unions do reflect the public, and the
:10:16. > :10:22.ordinary people. Jimmy Reid may have provided that
:10:22. > :10:28.the left with an impetus. Where is the letter today? Good question. I
:10:28. > :10:34.am not sure, in terms of centre- left politics we do need to indulge
:10:34. > :10:38.in ideas. We need to inspire people, debt collectors interested. We need
:10:38. > :10:48.people to be talking about the future, talking about the problems
:10:48. > :10:49.
:10:49. > :10:53.of Scotland, individual communities. It is as if under the weight a
:10:53. > :11:02.conventional politics the left has crumbled. We need to talk about
:11:02. > :11:11.where we go as a country? If everything comes... A one would
:11:11. > :11:21.hope. There is a very tribal nature. Where is the voice during the
:11:21. > :11:21.
:11:21. > :11:27.minimum pricing debate? Where is the alternative credible voice?
:11:27. > :11:33.That is sometimes used as party lines. There is an irony in all
:11:33. > :11:40.this. If every second cent since -- if they raise a consensus, it is
:11:40. > :11:50.not on the right. Almost all of the credible political parties hold to
:11:50. > :11:50.
:11:50. > :11:56.the same sort of general be used. - - same sort of general abuse.
:11:56. > :12:04.Centre politics is the dominant force in Scotland. Whilst the
:12:04. > :12:11.centre parties are ideal free zones. There are people willing to talk
:12:11. > :12:21.about different options. Is there a new opportunity for organised
:12:21. > :12:25.
:12:25. > :12:29.labour, through Jim Murphy for stop if unions are marginalised it would
:12:29. > :12:35.just -- if the unions are marginalised it will affect the
:12:35. > :12:41.Labour Party. Whilst it is a romantic notion,
:12:41. > :12:47.Scott and's notion of people and liberalism made to make -- may end
:12:47. > :12:52.up being pragmatic. We will be discussing the future of
:12:52. > :13:02.the Scottish Conservatives before too long.
:13:02. > :13:02.
:13:02. > :13:08.Ross Martin and John -- and George Kerevan are still here. One person
:13:08. > :13:15.said the left in Scotland is the mainstream. He is that the problem?
:13:15. > :13:20.The SNP have realised that. That is absolutely true. What has happened
:13:20. > :13:29.in Scotland is that politicians think they have moved on, but the
:13:29. > :13:36.people have moved on pass them. -- passed a them. People have moved
:13:36. > :13:46.the gate. People are organising themselves outside the political
:13:46. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:58.mainstream. What is left gets defined in such broader terms. --
:13:58. > :14:01.
:14:01. > :14:08.such broad terms. The SNP are not a left-wing party, they are like
:14:08. > :14:12.Christian Democrats in a northern European country. They are not
:14:12. > :14:21.hostile to big business. They do not want to contain big business
:14:21. > :14:29.today? Scottish society, I mean the middle-class part, has centre-left
:14:29. > :14:35.values. The SNP reflects that. They are a centre-left party in the
:14:35. > :14:43.Scandinavian tradition. The Scottish consensus is that
:14:43. > :14:51.collectivism is a top-down statist approach to reform. Radicalism, I
:14:51. > :14:59.still count myself as a radical, that means we have to get away from
:14:59. > :15:03.the top down statist approach. That change has to come from the bottom,
:15:03. > :15:13.from other local authorities, local groups and community groups. Even
:15:13. > :15:18.
:15:18. > :15:27.trade unionism. If you think of all the debates that we have had, you
:15:27. > :15:34.cannot have a sensible discussion here. We cannot talk about free
:15:34. > :15:41.prescriptions for rich people. Perhaps if private companies could
:15:41. > :15:50.help provide a public services? you look at Scotland, and try to
:15:50. > :15:59.find a way Brackley is a maze, -- try to find where radicalism is,
:15:59. > :16:06.there is a lack of responsibility. Scotland never got them Margaret
:16:06. > :16:15.Thatcher, Germany and France never got that either. Nobody accuses
:16:15. > :16:23.Angela Merkel or Nicolas Sarkozy are the right wing. The Labour
:16:23. > :16:30.Party in Scotland looks at the SNP and sees itself, and vice-versa.
:16:30. > :16:40.Scottish politics will always be seen prove that crazy present. --
:16:40. > :16:49.that crazy prism. The SNP is cleverer that been seen left-wing
:16:49. > :16:53.when it wants to. He it is -- it is not challenging the consensus.
:16:53. > :17:01.tend to agree with that. There is a problem in the local parties across
:17:01. > :17:07.Scotland. The leaderships are often frightened to embrace policy debate.
:17:07. > :17:12.It has been that way since the 1970s. We are never going to have a
:17:12. > :17:22.referendum unless the SNP comes up and says what it would do in that
:17:22. > :17:27.event. Amongst all the parties north and south of the border,
:17:27. > :17:30.there is a worry about getting into a serious policy debate. That is
:17:30. > :17:40.why the Jimmy Reid Foundation is a good idea. We need to debate
:17:40. > :17:41.
:17:41. > :17:44.serious ideas. When you see that film, many people in Scotland, even
:17:44. > :17:53.people who see themselves in that light, never had anything to do
:17:53. > :17:58.with it. Nobody talks about the Scottish middle classes. It is the
:17:58. > :18:03.Scottish middle classes who form the big mass of people who vote for
:18:03. > :18:11.the political parties. They are in the middle of the distribution
:18:11. > :18:17.curve. That is represented in the public's get -- the public sector
:18:17. > :18:27.of Scotland. Thank you very much.
:18:27. > :18:34.
:18:34. > :18:44.A look at the front pages. The Guardian there, the Independent as
:18:44. > :18:50.
:18:50. > :19:00.well. They are all talking about the event macros. -- riots.
:19:00. > :19:26.
:19:26. > :19:34.Cutbacks in the Financial Times. Rain in Scotland. Some sunshine in
:19:34. > :19:40.East Anglia. A misty humid kind of day. It will be great for most of
:19:40. > :19:46.the day. A line of rain will move slowly across Wales. He should not
:19:46. > :19:51.be too heavy here. Some rain early on across Northern Ireland. We may
:19:51. > :19:57.see things turning dryer. It will be pretty wet by the end of the day
:19:57. > :20:01.in western Scotland and the far north-east. That rain will move
:20:01. > :20:08.across all of the Scotland during Friday evening. Some bright