:00:03. > :00:06.so acknowledges its own limitations. And without a change in the
:00:06. > :00:12.international climate, it seems difficult how it could be extended
:00:12. > :00:15.to Syria or Iran. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, will the rebel
:00:15. > :00:20.surge into the Libyan capital also bring with it fresh information on
:00:20. > :00:23.the Lockerbie bombing? As Scottish officials try to contact the only
:00:23. > :00:26.man convicted of the crime, we ask what lies ahead for Abdelbaset al-
:00:26. > :00:35.Megrahi and the investigation into who else may have been responsible
:00:35. > :00:38.for the murder of 270 people. Good evening. The Prime Minister
:00:38. > :00:41.and the President of the United States have both come out and said
:00:41. > :00:45.that Colonel Gaddafi must relinquish power in Libya.
:00:45. > :00:47.As his regime appears to be losing its grip, politicians here and in
:00:47. > :00:50.the USA are already seeing Gadaffi's downfall as an
:00:50. > :00:52.opportunity to gain more information about Lockerbie.
:00:52. > :00:57.Deserters from his regime have already said there is proof among
:00:57. > :01:07.files in Tripoli. But what will it mean for the man convicted of the
:01:07. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:21.bombing? The rebels are closing in the corner Colonel Gadaffi. This
:01:21. > :01:31.convoy is heading to the main square in Tripoli. We spoke to one
:01:31. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:38.Scottish nurse in the compound in Tripoli. I was a night shift last
:01:38. > :01:44.night and I am just getting ready to call back on shaft and the
:01:44. > :01:47.people appear to be very happy about the possible change. They
:01:47. > :01:57.seem to think that the new government can only be a good thing
:01:57. > :02:00.
:02:00. > :02:08.for it would be a. This this situation is changing daily, but
:02:09. > :02:15.what will it mean for one Libyan in particular? The future of the
:02:15. > :02:25.Abdelbaset al-Megrahi is once again up for debate. That decision to
:02:25. > :02:34.release than in the first place - I would much rather see him behind
:02:34. > :02:42.bars, but there are serious legal debates to be looked at in this.
:02:42. > :02:52.the United States, future presidential candidate is calling
:02:52. > :02:55.
:02:55. > :03:05.for Abdelbaset al-Megrahi to be extradited to the United States.
:03:05. > :03:07.
:03:07. > :03:14.There is a general feeling that the the decision to release Abdelbaset
:03:14. > :03:24.al-Megrahi appears to be borne out by Paul's which have beat taken
:03:24. > :03:25.
:03:26. > :03:34.place. His safety is in question and there is a fear among some that
:03:34. > :03:42.American secret services we tried to assassinate him. I think his
:03:42. > :03:49.life is in less danger. Apart from any disease or illness he is
:03:49. > :03:55.suffering from. With the tribal balance been reset and the main
:03:55. > :04:00.power which used terror as a political tool gone, he is now it
:04:00. > :04:09.finally free to speak his own version and that is the version we
:04:09. > :04:14.should all listen to. And Libya's tribal dynamics come into this. New
:04:14. > :04:18.members of the transitional government were also members of
:04:18. > :04:23.Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was trade. As far as we know, he is not planning
:04:23. > :04:30.to flee. As part of his conditions of release, he is not allowed to
:04:30. > :04:37.leave Libya or even change address without contacting the authorities
:04:37. > :04:43.here. Officials here are confident that he is still at that address
:04:43. > :04:50.and that he is not planning to leave at the country. The council
:04:50. > :04:55.say they will con tact and then the next couple of days. But key people
:04:55. > :05:01.of the regime's say they have proof of his guilt. They say that proof
:05:01. > :05:08.always end fails in Tripoli, but they have offered no proof to back
:05:08. > :05:18.up these claims. They have a lot to gain by convincing the west of the
:05:18. > :05:19.
:05:19. > :05:28.year credence. He himself may want to half discussions with the
:05:28. > :05:38.authorities. No decisions are made in this country without the say-so
:05:38. > :05:42.
:05:42. > :05:45.of the boss himself. Other factors could come into play. A report by
:05:45. > :05:50.the Scottish Criminal Cases Review it is expected soon and it has been
:05:50. > :05:54.claimed it raises serious concerns about Abdelbaset al-Megrahi his
:05:54. > :06:02.conviction. But it is unlikely to end the speculation about what
:06:02. > :06:05.really happened in the sky above Joining us in our Washington studio
:06:05. > :06:13.is Stephanie Bernstein, who lost her husband, Michael, in Pan Am
:06:13. > :06:21.Flight 103. Cannot you give us an idea of your feelings as you have
:06:21. > :06:28.seen at the scenes in it Libya? am inspired by the courage and
:06:28. > :06:35.bravery and conviction of the Libyan people. We are about to
:06:35. > :06:39.celebrate the unveiling of a memorial to Martin Luther King. He
:06:39. > :06:47.used to say something that President Obama often quotes, which
:06:47. > :06:53.is that the moral art of history is long, but it is advanced towards
:06:53. > :06:59.justice. Over the last 23 years, I have doubted the moral bulk of the
:06:59. > :07:04.universe, but my faith has been restored in seeing what is going on
:07:04. > :07:11.in Tripoli and Libya. What will change in order for you to receive
:07:11. > :07:19.justice? We are at a critical time right now. Things are very fluid.
:07:19. > :07:24.There was a court this afternoon with the White House national
:07:24. > :07:30.security staff for the families of Pan Am Flight 103.. In a fluid
:07:30. > :07:35.situation, there are opportunities. I disagree with the previous person
:07:35. > :07:40.who said that Abdelbaset al-Megrahi is not in danger within Libya. I
:07:40. > :07:45.think he probably is. He was an agent of a Libyan intelligence, and
:07:45. > :07:50.I am sure there are people he was responsible for harming. We have an
:07:50. > :07:57.opportunity to provide him with safety in exchange for information.
:07:57. > :08:04.I also wanted to bring up Moussa Koussa. He was allowed to leave
:08:04. > :08:14.Libya, he is now sunning himself up somewhere. He was one of the
:08:14. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:21.architects of Pan Am Flight 103.. So, I think this is an opportunity
:08:22. > :08:26.for people to give information. I thought we lost that opportunity
:08:26. > :08:31.when Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was wrongly released two years ago. We
:08:31. > :08:36.now have another opportunity. We lost the opportunity then to get
:08:36. > :08:42.information from him, but now we have that opportunity. If we do not
:08:42. > :08:52.take it, I will be disappointed. What chance do you think it tears
:08:52. > :09:02.American forces, all the National Transitional Council, will hand him
:09:02. > :09:06.
:09:06. > :09:11.over? -- what chance do you think it is that. I cannot say. I believe
:09:11. > :09:17.the Justice Minister has a very strong commitment to the rule of
:09:17. > :09:24.law. I would hope he would want to assist in any ongoing criminal
:09:24. > :09:30.investigation. In the United States, this is an ongoing criminal
:09:30. > :09:34.investigation. I it would like to have asked use this as an
:09:34. > :09:38.intelligence gathering opportunity. There is also a chance for asked to
:09:38. > :09:42.redeem the actions of allow government, which turned a blind
:09:42. > :09:48.eye, not only to the fact that Abdelbaset al-Megrahi should have
:09:48. > :09:54.served the rest of his term, but turned a blind eye to Gaddafi's
:09:54. > :10:00.human rights abuses in the sake of business interests. A while you
:10:00. > :10:10.confident, then, that fresh information will emerge? -- Why are
:10:10. > :10:12.
:10:12. > :10:18.you confident. Because this is a fluid time. It may take the people
:10:18. > :10:23.a long time to sort through it, but there will be information. Is there
:10:23. > :10:27.a well amongst the administration in capital cities, involved in the
:10:27. > :10:33.conflict in Libya, do you think there is able to find that
:10:33. > :10:40.information? I hope so. My husband was involved in pursuing justice
:10:40. > :10:45.for people who died long before. He was a prosecutor who worked for an
:10:45. > :10:52.office in the Department of Justice, who found not seize who aided the
:10:52. > :10:57.German government in the Second World War. -- who found Nazis.
:10:57. > :11:05.There was that office because we believed that the morale up of the
:11:05. > :11:09.universe has to tilt towards justice. -- moral Arc. If we
:11:09. > :11:17.allowed business interests to cloud our judgment about what the right
:11:17. > :11:22.thing to do, this is an opportunity for us to say to our children, we
:11:22. > :11:29.will do the right thing. We did the right thing by helping the Libyan
:11:29. > :11:36.people, and we need to find out whatever there is to find out all
:11:36. > :11:39.the atrocities committed by this regime. Thank you for joining us
:11:40. > :11:42.from Washington. We can cross now to Exeter, where
:11:42. > :11:45.we are joined by Tim Niblock, professor of Middle East Politics
:11:45. > :11:55.at Exeter University. And in Brighton by John Aston, who is co-
:11:55. > :11:59.
:11:59. > :12:09.authoring a book with Megrahi. Mr Aston, can you give us any
:12:09. > :12:09.
:12:09. > :12:15.information on how Abdelbaset al- Megrahi is? I cannot, I am afraid.
:12:15. > :12:21.Given your relationship in the past, do you think he will beat worried?
:12:21. > :12:29.It seems the Gaddafi regime is coming to an end? Everyone in Libya
:12:29. > :12:33.will be Libya -- will be worried. I would be worried if I was him
:12:33. > :12:41.because of what American politicians have been saying
:12:41. > :12:47.recently. That said, he hoped he will have the protection of his
:12:47. > :12:53.tribe. Professor, as everyone has been saying, the situation is very
:12:53. > :12:59.fluid in deed. Where do you seek the Libyan situation panning out in
:12:59. > :13:03.terms of gaining more information about what happened in the
:13:03. > :13:11.Lockerbie bombing? Do you think the National Transitional Council will
:13:11. > :13:16.be friendly to investigators? have got no reason not to be. It is
:13:16. > :13:24.in debt interest to show what happened with Gaddafi, and what
:13:24. > :13:28.went wrong. Abdelbaset al-Megrahi has already said he thinks he has
:13:28. > :13:33.evidence of Gaddafi's involvement in what happened in Lockerbie.
:13:33. > :13:39.Presumably, they have an interest in that. Whether there is any
:13:39. > :13:43.reality behind there is a different matter. Lots of people have lots of
:13:43. > :13:49.different competing interests. If the Gaddafi regime is to fall,
:13:49. > :13:52.there will be people looking for supporters. Do you think that is
:13:52. > :14:00.likely to have hiked up the information we think might be in
:14:00. > :14:04.Tripoli? Maybe. But in the last few days, the Libyan National
:14:04. > :14:09.Transitional Council has been moderate in what it has been saying.
:14:09. > :14:16.It has been talking about reconciliation, it has been trying
:14:16. > :14:23.to defuse some of the pension and calls for revenge. -- some of the
:14:24. > :14:33.pension. In many ways, it may be in its interests not to hike up the
:14:33. > :14:40.question of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, because that could focus the
:14:40. > :14:46.tension. We have heard from senators asking for Abdelbaset al-
:14:46. > :14:56.Megrahi to be extradited there. Do you think that is likely to happen?
:14:56. > :15:01.
:15:01. > :15:06.I have no idea. This would be forbidden, because deep government
:15:06. > :15:10.would stand by the international treaties. They signed up to a trial
:15:10. > :15:18.process which allowed Abdelbaset al-Megrahi to be tried in the
:15:18. > :15:22.Scottish law. If he were to emerge in the next couple of days, do you
:15:22. > :15:29.think it is likely he would want to stay in Tripoli, or move on to
:15:29. > :15:34.somewhere else? I really do not know. He wants to be safe, and I do
:15:34. > :15:43.not know whether you'll be saved in Tripoli or outside. House a fault
:15:43. > :15:52.Abdelbaset al-Megrahi be? -- How safe. Can you explain to us where
:15:52. > :15:56.he sits, and how likely it is the tribe will protect him? He comes
:15:56. > :16:01.from a tribe closely associated with Gaddafi, and the Gaddafi
:16:01. > :16:07.regime. However, there are many members of the tribe who are not
:16:07. > :16:13.supporters of the Gaddafi regime. I would have thought that he would
:16:13. > :16:18.have been able to count on some support from that background,
:16:18. > :16:22.whether from supporters of Gaddafi or not. I think it is also worth
:16:22. > :16:28.bearing in mind that Abdelbaset al- Megrahi himself probably has quite
:16:28. > :16:34.a lot of interest in a revealing as much as he knows. He was going into
:16:34. > :16:40.an appeal at the time he went back to Libya. He believes he has a
:16:41. > :16:47.strong case himself to show he was not lucky, so presumably, he will
:16:47. > :16:54.want to have revealed that. We did beat in the interests of any
:16:54. > :16:58.government that would takeover not to be too co-operative? -- would it
:16:58. > :17:05.be. Haven't we be told that Abdelbaset al-Megrahi is a national
:17:05. > :17:11.hero in Libya in the past? He was a hero of the regime, if you like. It
:17:11. > :17:17.would be wrong to call him a national hero. In any case, it may
:17:17. > :17:24.also be true that the regime will have something to gain by having
:17:24. > :17:34.him out of the country. When he is out of the country, it will not be
:17:34. > :17:34.
:17:34. > :17:40.caused third division within. speculation that the Scottish
:17:40. > :17:45.report into his appeal, legislation might be brought forward. From your
:17:45. > :17:52.information, what is Abdelbaset al- Megrahi's view on how much of his
:17:52. > :17:57.case that should be made public? has always said or other it will be
:17:57. > :18:02.made public. He was devastated he had to drop his appeal when he went
:18:02. > :18:09.home. He wants the evidence to come out. He constantly says to me, I
:18:09. > :18:19.cannot have my day in court. I want the public to be my jury. I want
:18:19. > :18:19.
:18:19. > :18:29.them to judge with their heads, not their hearts? The criminal case
:18:29. > :18:38.will be made public. We your book contain information? -- will your
:18:38. > :18:44.book. Of course. What they did uncover was pretty devastating as
:18:44. > :18:48.well. Professor, we heard from a victim of Pan Am Flight 103. Lots
:18:48. > :18:53.of those related to those who died have been a desperate to find the
:18:53. > :19:00.true that this case. Do you think the events in Libya will bring them
:19:00. > :19:05.any closer? It may well do, but the truth may not lead in the direction
:19:05. > :19:12.which they think it leaves. It may not lead towards Abdelbaset al-
:19:12. > :19:17.Megrahi, and in may not lead towards Libya. Do you believe there
:19:17. > :19:26.is any link between Libya and the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103.?
:19:26. > :19:32.why do not. -- I do not. Why did the Libyan regime admit liability
:19:32. > :19:40.then? They had omitted legal responsibility, but always said, we
:19:40. > :19:49.did not do this. -- they admitted legal responsibility. They always
:19:50. > :19:57.said, we are not admitting guilt. Professor, a final word on Gaddafi.
:19:57. > :20:03.Is this the end game? I think it is the endgame. It rather depends on
:20:03. > :20:11.where he is. If he has gone to the south, he can probably remain there