:00:14. > :00:18.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, what should happen next to the Lockerbie
:00:18. > :00:22.bomber? Two years ago world leaders were at pains to point out that his
:00:22. > :00:25.release on compassionate grounds was down to the Scottish legal
:00:25. > :00:28.system so what basis do US senators have for his extradition and on
:00:28. > :00:34.what grounds does Nick Clegg think al-Megrahi should be put back
:00:34. > :00:38.behind bars, as he suggested today? You will hear from two top players
:00:38. > :00:42.with wildly different views. Lord Foulkes claims it is
:00:42. > :00:45.discrimination to charge students from the rest of the UK to a 10
:00:45. > :00:52.Scottish universities, especially when you are macro students do not
:00:52. > :00:55.have to pay. Is he right? -- especially when EU students do not
:00:55. > :01:01.have to pay. The Lockerbie bomber was released
:01:01. > :01:03.on compassionate grounds on the condition that to be maintained
:01:04. > :01:07.contact with authorities in Scotland. The turmoil in Libya has
:01:08. > :01:11.made that difficult, so there are increasing calls for al-Megrahi to
:01:11. > :01:21.be brought back to the UK or to face trial in the USA. Are either
:01:21. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:35.of those options legal and is it This is Tripoli. This city where
:01:35. > :01:40.al-Megrahi has been living for the last two years, a city that is now
:01:40. > :01:47.way war-zone. So far there has been no contact with al-Megrahi.
:01:47. > :01:50.Internet and phone connections are not reliable. This has led Nick
:01:50. > :01:58.Clegg to repeat his calls to have the Lockerbie bomber brought back
:01:58. > :02:02.to Britain. I personally would like to see al-Megrahi behind bars.
:02:02. > :02:05.Whatever we think, he was convicted in a court of law for one of the
:02:05. > :02:09.most atrocious terrorist acts that this country has ever seen. But at
:02:09. > :02:12.the end of the day, this is an issue for the Scottish Government
:02:12. > :02:17.and this got his Government alone. With the Scottish Government
:02:17. > :02:20.standing by its decision, Nick Clegg is not going to get his wish.
:02:20. > :02:25.Legally, has got his Government has not have much option anyway.
:02:25. > :02:29.Lawyers say it is not likely that al-Megrahi will be brought back to
:02:29. > :02:36.Scotland and Lesley reoffenders. Calls from the USA to extradite him,
:02:36. > :02:41.that would not be that simple. would be extremely unusual and very
:02:41. > :02:44.much frowned upon if any legal system claimed the right to try
:02:44. > :02:49.somebody twice for a crime for which they have already been
:02:49. > :02:56.convicted, and indeed punishment has been set. That is the case with
:02:56. > :03:00.al-Megrahi, even though he has been released on compassionate grounds.
:03:00. > :03:03.Attempts by authorities to contact al-Megrahi in the past couple of
:03:03. > :03:07.days have not been successful but that does not necessarily mean he
:03:07. > :03:12.is breaching the conditions of his release. The last conversation
:03:12. > :03:15.happened on August 8th. On average there is contact on a monthly basis.
:03:15. > :03:21.Enormous situation they would not expect to speak to him for another
:03:21. > :03:27.couple of weeks. -- in a normal situation. The medical reports are
:03:27. > :03:37.up to date. We are satisfied that he is in Tripoli but clearly it is
:03:37. > :03:39.
:03:39. > :03:42.a war-zone and we will continue to reach him, if we can. He has been
:03:42. > :03:47.seen at a pro-Gaddafi rally, evidence that he has breached his
:03:47. > :03:51.bail conditions. How important is the fate of al-Megrahi in the UK?
:03:51. > :03:54.For all that Nick Clegg wants to see him behind bars, there is
:03:54. > :03:59.little evidence that the UK Government is actively pursuing
:03:59. > :04:05.this. At the Security Council meeting in Downing Street today,
:04:05. > :04:13.al-Megrahi was not even mentioned once. Nobody knows how this story
:04:13. > :04:19.will end for al-Megrahi, but attention is already turning to
:04:19. > :04:23.something else. Gaddafi's links to the Lockerbie bombing are already
:04:23. > :04:27.being investigated by the USA and those looking for reasons behind
:04:27. > :04:32.the terrorist attack may be more interested in Gaddafi than the man
:04:32. > :04:38.behind the crime. I am joined by Geoffrey Robinson QC and Gordon
:04:38. > :04:43.Jackson, former MSP. What do you think should happen to al-Megrahi?
:04:43. > :04:48.Well, what should happen to Colonel Gaddafi is more important. There is
:04:48. > :04:55.now increased evidence that he is guilty of giving the orders to al-
:04:55. > :05:02.Megrahi to blow up the jet. Should we have an agreement between Libya,
:05:02. > :05:05.the USA and Scotland? And when Gaddafi is delivered, as I hope he
:05:05. > :05:11.will be, to the international criminal court, there should be a
:05:11. > :05:17.claim to try him first. As for al- Megrahi, the Americans are making
:05:17. > :05:21.is ludicrous claim that he should be extradited to stand trial again.
:05:21. > :05:26.That is contrary to international law. Al-Megrahi has been given a
:05:26. > :05:31.fair trial, before no less than eight Scottish judges of great
:05:31. > :05:39.eminence, who found him guilty. So there is no question of extraditing
:05:39. > :05:43.him. He has been convicted. The problem is that contrary to the
:05:43. > :05:49.promise that Robin Cook, as the UK foreign secretary, gave to
:05:49. > :05:53.Madeleine Albright that he had served 27 years, this extraordinary
:05:53. > :05:57.behaviour of the Scottish minister who seems to have been conned by
:05:57. > :06:02.doctors paid by the Libyans into thinking that al-Megrahi would die
:06:02. > :06:06.in three months gave him a statutory compassionate release.
:06:06. > :06:11.There are two reasons why I think Nick Clegg is right and he should
:06:11. > :06:15.be brought back. One is that those doctors were so wrong that there
:06:15. > :06:22.must be a question over their diagnosis. He has been alive for
:06:22. > :06:25.two years. He should be brought back and probably examined by
:06:25. > :06:29.independent doctor that are not paid by the Libyans. The second
:06:29. > :06:34.reason is that he has been out there demonstrating in favour of
:06:34. > :06:39.Gaddafi. In any system if he is under probation that counts as a
:06:39. > :06:45.matter that should raise questions about him. I think the Scottish
:06:45. > :06:53.Court of Appeal said on November 14th, 2009, that if he was ill,
:06:53. > :06:56.they were prepared to release him to a bail hostel. That is the
:06:56. > :07:03.proper place he should be. right, let's come on to Gaddafi in
:07:03. > :07:06.a moment. What do you think should have the do al-Megrahi? The claim
:07:06. > :07:10.that that the medical evidence all came from Libyan paid doctors would
:07:10. > :07:14.be disputed. It would be disputed. He is on licence and that licence
:07:14. > :07:16.could theoretically be revoked. It would have to be on the
:07:16. > :07:20.recommendation of the Parole Board and I see no chance of that
:07:20. > :07:23.happening. I don't think the Scottish Government would give into
:07:23. > :07:28.that kind of pressure. We have no evidence that he has breached a
:07:28. > :07:33.thing. He may have been at a rally, but how he could have said he would
:07:33. > :07:36.not come to the rally to Gaddafi is not realistic. I do not think it is
:07:36. > :07:43.remotely likely that we will revoke its licence and try to bring him
:07:43. > :07:46.back. Theoretically possible but not practical. What about Gaddafi?
:07:46. > :07:55.If there is evidence that Gaddafi was also responsible for that
:07:55. > :08:00.bombing, Denshaw, put him on trial, why not? -- then sure. Who should?
:08:00. > :08:05.We should, the Scottish courts. If the Scottish courts were properly
:08:05. > :08:09.able to try the other two men, then we should try Gaddafi as well if
:08:09. > :08:11.there is evidence that he is responsible and I think the Crown
:08:12. > :08:18.Office would be up for doing that and there is no legal obstacle to
:08:18. > :08:24.doing so. You seem to agree that the Scottish judicial system should
:08:24. > :08:31.try to prosecute Gaddafi. Indeed. Given that he has already been
:08:31. > :08:39.indicted by the ICC, how does that work? Who has priority? Would the
:08:39. > :08:42.ICC Goathurst and then the Scottish judicial system? -- go first?
:08:42. > :08:51.likely heard is that Gaddafi will be strung up from the nearest lamp-
:08:51. > :08:55.post. He has already got a reward on his head. If he is captured
:08:55. > :08:59.alive, he will be transferred to the Hague, the international
:08:59. > :09:03.criminal court. At court has the power to release him to another
:09:03. > :09:07.country to try him first for another atrocity. There are going
:09:07. > :09:12.to be two countries that want him. We will want him and Scotland
:09:13. > :09:16.should try him under the agreement, as my learned colleague says. There
:09:16. > :09:21.is increased evidence now, the former justice minister says he has
:09:21. > :09:25.evidence of his guilt. But the French will want him because six
:09:25. > :09:32.months after he did the Lockerbie bombing, he ordered the destruction
:09:32. > :09:34.of a passenger aeroplane over Chad with 170 casualties. The French
:09:35. > :09:41.tried to prosecute him in absentia a few years ago. They said they
:09:41. > :09:46.could not. They ruled that he was immune because he was head of state
:09:46. > :09:55.so he had head of state immunity. He no longer his head of state so
:09:55. > :09:58.he can be prosecuted in France for that. Scotland and France will be
:09:58. > :10:08.contesting who should go first. He should be prosecuted for those
:10:08. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:13.crimes and then prosecuted by the ICC with his son for the ICC
:10:14. > :10:18.indictment. I must say that I find it bewildering that the spotted
:10:18. > :10:21.probation officer could not recall him. I think there might have to be
:10:21. > :10:28.legal proceedings to require them to do their duty because the man
:10:28. > :10:34.has been a propaganda agent for the Gaddafi regime. In the background,
:10:34. > :10:37.the politics of it. Another Barney has broken out today. Gordon Brown
:10:37. > :10:41.releasing letters claiming that he did not know the British Government
:10:41. > :10:51.had any policy, if it did, to facilitate the release of al-
:10:51. > :10:54.
:10:54. > :11:00.The decision was the decision of the Scottish government and whether
:11:00. > :11:08.his licence will be we float will be up to the Scottish government.
:11:08. > :11:16.UK politics cannot play a part in it. Scotland was made a laughing-
:11:16. > :11:26.stock. How busier -- How dare up a single minister, without talking to
:11:26. > :11:34.the relatives whose loved ones were blown up, make such a decision. The
:11:34. > :11:41.whole thing poor of fast enough to shame over Scotland. If the
:11:41. > :11:46.minister has any will but, he will use the opportunity to revisit the
:11:46. > :11:52.situation. Very briefly. A I do not accept that. I understand why
:11:52. > :11:57.people think it was the wrong decision. It was made sincerely. It
:11:57. > :12:04.is not relevant. We cannot simply for political reasons revoked his
:12:04. > :12:06.licence. Thank you. We will have to leave it there. Lord Foulkes of
:12:06. > :12:09.Cumnock has described the Scottish government's plans on tuition fees
:12:09. > :12:12.as unfair and discriminatory and is proposing an amendment to the
:12:12. > :12:15.Scotland Bill to stop them. From next year, students from the rest
:12:15. > :12:19.of the UK who want to study in Scotland could be charged tuition
:12:19. > :12:22.fees of up to �9,000 a year. Earlier this week a human rights
:12:22. > :12:24.law firm said they are planning to challenge the decision on the basis
:12:24. > :12:31.it breaches equality laws, especially since those from other
:12:31. > :12:36.parts of the EU won't have to pay anything.
:12:36. > :12:43.This is a classic example of devolution producing consequences
:12:43. > :12:47.that is the stuff of a huge political row. It is unfair that
:12:47. > :12:53.22,500 students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland his study in
:12:53. > :13:01.Scotland should pay �9,000 a year in fees. They are British students.
:13:01. > :13:06.Students from any other part of the EU can study for nothing. Lord
:13:06. > :13:13.Foulkes of Cumnock describes it as an injustice that discriminate
:13:13. > :13:18.against the English. The Scottish government says it has no choice
:13:18. > :13:23.under European lot but to allow students from other EU countries to
:13:23. > :13:33.study for free. That is because it cannot discriminate against
:13:33. > :13:34.
:13:34. > :13:38.citizens from other EU students. But because students from England,
:13:38. > :13:48.Wales and Northern Ireland are not from another European country, they
:13:48. > :13:50.
:13:50. > :13:55.can charge them. The Government can also point out that although the
:13:55. > :13:59.SNP's support the policy of tuition free higher education, the policy
:13:59. > :14:03.was introduced by Labour and the Liberal Democrats when they were
:14:03. > :14:06.running Scotland and the policy was supported by Labour in the last
:14:06. > :14:10.Scottish election. And as you can see, in the studio
:14:10. > :14:15.with me now is the former MSP Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and for the SNP
:14:15. > :14:20.the Education Committee Convener Stewart Maxwell. What exactly is
:14:20. > :14:23.your argument? I think it is discriminatory and unfair that
:14:24. > :14:29.students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland should have to pay
:14:29. > :14:34.huge fees, �9,000 a year, while students coming from European
:14:34. > :14:38.countries like Lithuania and Poland will pay the same as Scottish
:14:38. > :14:43.students. This is having to be done because the SNP government had cut
:14:43. > :14:49.the grants to universities and this is the way of making extra money.
:14:50. > :14:55.Hang on. This division was brought in by your lot, not the SNP.
:14:55. > :15:02.wasn't. Of course there was. Liberal Democrats insisted and you
:15:02. > :15:07.went along with it. I am in favour of no tuition fees in Scotland. The
:15:07. > :15:13.Liberals are and so are their SNP. So, we let everyone in for nothing?
:15:13. > :15:23.If we are letting Polish and Lithuanian students, then so should
:15:23. > :15:33.
:15:33. > :15:37.be English, Welsh and Irish students. There is a legal argument
:15:37. > :15:41.about European law, but for a lot of people, on the face of it, they
:15:41. > :15:45.would probably agree with George. It doesn't seem right that a
:15:45. > :15:49.student from Ukraine can pay nothing to go to a Scottish
:15:49. > :15:55.university, but a student from down the road will have to pay. It seems
:15:55. > :16:02.wrong. I support the idea there should not be any tuition fees for
:16:02. > :16:07.any student in the UK. Labour introduced it and the Conservatives
:16:07. > :16:13.and Lib Dems have increased it. We have had no choice but to introduce
:16:13. > :16:19.fees here. I want to put you something George's not saying. You
:16:19. > :16:23.are suggesting that a Scottish government should waive the fees
:16:23. > :16:30.for English students it it is going to do the same for other European
:16:30. > :16:35.students. We cannot afford it. It cost in the region of �75 million.
:16:35. > :16:42.The fact is that the fault lies with the UK government for
:16:42. > :16:47.introducing these fees in the first place. The Scottish government is
:16:47. > :16:52.responsible for Scottish, so students. We want to make education
:16:52. > :16:56.free at the point of use. Strangely enough, you voted in favour of
:16:56. > :17:00.tuition fees at every opportunity when you're in the Scottish
:17:00. > :17:04.parliament. Labour in Scotland and Liberal Democrat in Scotland
:17:05. > :17:10.support you on this, but you are in favour of an independent Scotland.
:17:10. > :17:17.By irony is, if you achieve that, then Wales, Northern Ireland and
:17:17. > :17:21.England, all the students would come in three. They would be the
:17:21. > :17:27.same as students from Lithuania, Poland and France. I look forward
:17:27. > :17:33.to that. Why are you saying, if there is an independent Scotland,
:17:33. > :17:43.they can come in free. But if they are part of the Union, you would
:17:43. > :17:44.
:17:44. > :17:48.charge them. We are not saying that. The Scottish government has been in
:17:49. > :17:53.negotiation with the European Union to close this loophole so we can
:17:53. > :17:58.charge a fee to European students. It is unfair that they can come in
:17:58. > :18:06.and we are trying to resolve that. Scottish students can go to Poland,
:18:06. > :18:09.France, Germany on the same basis... Sorry to interrupt. No matter which
:18:09. > :18:13.way you cut it, whether you blame the British government for
:18:13. > :18:16.introducing tuition fees or whether you blame the Scottish government
:18:16. > :18:21.for not going along with that and keeping the same system across the
:18:21. > :18:25.UK, Labour was responsible for both of those decisions. It was Labour
:18:25. > :18:31.who introduced the tuition fees in England and decided not to have won
:18:31. > :18:35.in Scotland. But I'm giving the UK parliament the opportunity to say
:18:35. > :18:40.we can change the law so that students from England, Wales and
:18:40. > :18:47.Northern Ireland will be treated the same way as students from other
:18:47. > :18:51.countries in the European Union. But Welsh government is defending
:18:51. > :19:00.were students. The Scottish government is defending Scottish
:19:00. > :19:05.students. You need to have your argument with the UK government.
:19:05. > :19:08.am trying to defend students from every part of the United Kingdom.
:19:08. > :19:18.know you too can sit there all night, but the programme is
:19:18. > :19:32.