:00:12. > :00:14.On tonight's programme: If it is at all possible, given the
:00:15. > :00:17.history of this farce - another day of complete absurdity hits the
:00:17. > :00:20.Edinburgh trams. The Scottish Government - which had
:00:20. > :00:23.been clinging to the "nothing to do me, guv" mantra suddenly pops up
:00:23. > :00:26.with a threat to withdraw funding if the line doesn't go to St
:00:26. > :00:31.Andrews Square. "You're sabotaging the whole project," screams the
:00:31. > :00:37.opposition. Is anyone involved in this not just playing politics with
:00:37. > :00:39.hundreds of millions of pounds of our money? Good evening.
:00:39. > :00:44.It reads like another episode of a soap opera that stretches
:00:44. > :00:48.credibility to the limit. First, we learned of a council meeting this
:00:48. > :00:51.Friday to presumably do another spectacular U-turn. Then, John
:00:51. > :00:55.Swinney intervenes to tell everyone that he'll be signing no more
:00:55. > :00:58.cheques unless the tram line goes to St Andrews Square. You'll recall
:00:58. > :01:02.that last Thursday, the council, much to the surprise it would seem
:01:02. > :01:06.of even some of those who proposed it, decided the line should stop at
:01:06. > :01:08.Haymarket. We'll ask the Finance Secretary just what's going on
:01:08. > :01:18.shortly, but first Catriona Renton spent the day amongst the stunned
:01:18. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:32.For commuters, it has been a living hell. Just when it seemed the
:01:32. > :01:39.triumph saga could not go further off the rails, it did. This morning,
:01:39. > :01:42.the Scottish government said it would withhold �72 million, the
:01:42. > :01:46.balance of the �500 million of taxpayers' money they reluctantly
:01:46. > :01:49.agreed to spend on the trams in the first place. But Thursday's
:01:49. > :01:56.decision from councillors, that the end of the line would be at
:01:56. > :02:01.Haymarket, was the last straw. And once again the contractor is about
:02:01. > :02:08.to announce revised costs for changing the terminus again. It is
:02:08. > :02:12.a project that has lurched from disaster to its failure. For 18
:02:12. > :02:17.months at the other end of Princes Street's was chaos, causing hassle
:02:17. > :02:22.for locals and businesses. The original plan was for the tramline
:02:22. > :02:27.to run all away from the airport through the city centre down past
:02:27. > :02:30.here. That ambition has long disappeared. It has caused a
:02:30. > :02:34.considerable amount of money to restore this part of the road, to
:02:34. > :02:40.say nothing of the damage to local businesses. Now, the question is
:02:40. > :02:47.what has all that been for? about a year, the straw was
:02:48. > :02:56.struggling. We had to close another straw as well because it was in the
:02:56. > :03:01.centre of town. -- another stall. Do you think whatever we end up
:03:01. > :03:09.with will be worth what you have gone through? Not in the slightest.
:03:09. > :03:14.Not at all. We think there should be some sort of compensation for
:03:14. > :03:19.business owners in this area. Underlined just got even shorter.
:03:19. > :03:23.Last week, councillors rejected plans to borrow an extra �230
:03:23. > :03:29.million to run the line into St Andrew Square. He at Haymarket this
:03:29. > :03:33.could be the place where the trams do or do not terminate, but there
:03:33. > :03:40.was work scheduled to start here a week on Saturday, to go on until
:03:40. > :03:46.spring 2012, lanes -- Lane track and overhead cables. That decision
:03:46. > :03:52.is currently on hold. If it does go ahead, that will mean a more re-
:03:53. > :03:58.routing and destruction and of course lots of more noise. And what
:03:58. > :04:05.on earth does the Edinburgh council tax payer make of it will? What do
:04:05. > :04:11.you think of the tramp situation? Well, I have had three letters in
:04:11. > :04:16.the -- in the Scotsman this week expressing my opinion. They should
:04:16. > :04:26.stop the whole damn thing. It has caused so much destruction. I can
:04:26. > :04:31.see nothing in its favour. It is a joke! I think it is a farce, a
:04:31. > :04:36.complete waste of money. It is an embarrassment for the city. It is a
:04:36. > :04:40.bit silly. Very badly planned. just then the whole thing is
:04:40. > :04:44.ridiculous. They should never have done it in the first place. But so
:04:44. > :04:48.much time and money has been spent of an -- that you cannot really
:04:48. > :04:52.back out of it. It has just gone five o'clock and councillors across
:04:52. > :05:02.parties are meeting together trying to thrash out some sort of
:05:02. > :05:03.
:05:03. > :05:08.consensus about which track to go down ahead of Friday's meeting. Now,
:05:08. > :05:13.here is a nugget, from the report for business and economic Research.
:05:13. > :05:19.It reports that to pave the whole road along the original route with
:05:19. > :05:23.gold would cost �361 million. A mere fraction of the estimated
:05:23. > :05:27.billion pounds that some believe the tram project will now reach.
:05:27. > :05:29.The Scottish government says the report is deeply flawed, but it
:05:29. > :05:33.makes you think. The Finance Secretary John Swinney
:05:33. > :05:42.spoke to me just before we came on air. I began by asking him what he
:05:42. > :05:46.had announced today and why. What I said today is that in light of the
:05:46. > :05:52.City of Edinburgh's council's decision to terminate the tram
:05:52. > :05:55.project at Haymarket, I think this is such a substantial deviation
:05:55. > :06:00.from the original plan that ministers had reluctantly agreed to
:06:00. > :06:05.find that we no longer could provide any further finance for the
:06:05. > :06:10.project. It concerns that I have that the Haymarket route does not
:06:10. > :06:17.take the trams into the city centre, which was a key part of the
:06:17. > :06:23.operation of the tram project. Also, the project would require ongoing
:06:23. > :06:26.financial subsidy from the public purse, which in the current climate
:06:26. > :06:32.is an justifiable. So because of those standard changes to the
:06:32. > :06:38.project, I made it clear to the council that the government will be
:06:38. > :06:48.providing no more funds. What you expect to happen now? The council
:06:48. > :06:50.has decided to consider this issue at a special meeting this Friday.
:06:50. > :06:55.Officials of the council I am sure will be working on the alternatives
:06:55. > :07:00.for the council to consider. What I made clear in the communication
:07:00. > :07:02.from ministers to the City Council today is that ministers are
:07:02. > :07:10.prepared to consider alternative proposals that would be more
:07:10. > :07:14.consistent with the original design of the scheme stop -- the scheme.
:07:14. > :07:20.These alternative proposals might be more expensive and you would
:07:20. > :07:25.reconsider the funding, which you? I made it clear in 2007 when we
:07:25. > :07:29.accepted this vote which went against us in Parliament, and all
:07:29. > :07:34.of our opponents required as to guarantee funding for the project,
:07:34. > :07:38.that we would provide �500 million as a maximum. We will not be
:07:38. > :07:42.increasing that funding. I made it clear to the City Council today
:07:42. > :07:46.that the way in which they intended to spend a proportion of that
:07:46. > :07:52.public funding was unacceptable to the government and I was not
:07:52. > :07:56.prepared to release funding to relate -- to allow that to happen.
:07:56. > :08:03.Many listening to this tonight will be thinking why were you prepared
:08:03. > :08:08.to release �450 million worth of fonts, over 90% of this project,
:08:08. > :08:11.when not even one-third has been completed. Where was your due
:08:11. > :08:20.diligence when it became painfully obvious to everyone involved that
:08:20. > :08:25.this was not working was Mark that this was not working? The due
:08:25. > :08:35.diligence was to make sure the money was being spent in the way it
:08:35. > :08:40.was intended and that all requests for payment were appropriate and in
:08:41. > :08:45.order. But you cannot be satisfied as to that. Even on that test alone,
:08:45. > :08:49.you as a government surely cannot be satisfied. What I am satisfied
:08:49. > :08:54.about is that the money that has been spent on this project to date
:08:54. > :08:58.has been spent for the purposes of that project in a way which was
:08:58. > :09:02.properly administered and accounted for. What we have to question of
:09:02. > :09:07.course, and these will be the issues that will be material to the
:09:07. > :09:11.public inquiry taking place, is why the costs increased so
:09:11. > :09:14.significantly at a time when the government has been able to deploy
:09:14. > :09:24.considerable skill and effectiveness in bringing major
:09:24. > :09:27.
:09:27. > :09:30.capital projects not only in on time but in some cases under budget.
:09:30. > :09:34.And you had the expertise of Transport Scotland to help you do
:09:34. > :09:38.this. When you saw this was floundering years ago, would it not
:09:38. > :09:43.have been politically responsible to that given the transport
:09:43. > :09:47.Scotland expertise to this project rather than to be as grudging as
:09:47. > :09:52.you have been in your support of it? It was clear from the outset
:09:52. > :09:58.this was not a project we supported, but we accepted the will of
:09:58. > :10:02.Parliament and I accepted it and Adam -- I agreed to fund it to the
:10:02. > :10:05.tune of �500 million. But we have to be clear about where
:10:05. > :10:11.responsibilities lie. The responsibilities for managing and
:10:11. > :10:16.delivering this project rest on the City of Edinburgh Council. The
:10:16. > :10:21.Government's was a principal funder of that project. What you can see
:10:21. > :10:25.from any analysis of major public projects is where there is more
:10:25. > :10:30.than one party involved in the governance, that can lead to real
:10:31. > :10:34.project uncertainty. So the control of the project Rusted exclusively
:10:34. > :10:42.with the City of Edinburgh Council. Let us look at that uncertainty.
:10:42. > :10:48.You have now made conditional that funding on a proposition that the
:10:48. > :10:51.council abstained on voting last week. The SNP councillors have
:10:51. > :11:01.maintained a principle of consistent opposition to the tram's
:11:01. > :11:03.
:11:03. > :11:07.project. What are would say to all councillors in the City is that I
:11:07. > :11:13.do not think anybody could look at the events of the last few days to
:11:13. > :11:18.see an absurd decision that was taken by the council last Thursday
:11:18. > :11:22.being able to be taken forward in this fashion. So I appeal to
:11:22. > :11:26.councillors in the City of Edinburgh to look in a considered
:11:26. > :11:30.way at a way forward for the project. The government has taken
:11:30. > :11:33.decisive action to ensure that that can be taken forward by the council
:11:33. > :11:38.and it is now up to the councillors to respond positively to that
:11:38. > :11:43.challenge. The bottom line is you have left no option at all. They
:11:44. > :11:47.either do what you want or it folds. What the government cannot
:11:47. > :11:52.countenance is the design of a project which fails to meet any of
:11:52. > :11:57.the central propositions to which it was originally intended and to
:11:57. > :12:01.which inquires -- requires an on going public subsidy. That is not
:12:01. > :12:07.acceptable. That is the issue that has to be addressed and the
:12:07. > :12:09.intervention that ministers have it made today is designed to do that.
:12:09. > :12:11.Listening to that is Councillor Lesley Hinds, Labour's Transport
:12:11. > :12:21.Spokesperson, and, for the Conservatives, Councillor Jeremy
:12:21. > :12:25.
:12:25. > :12:30.Bank you for coming in, you had a meeting this evening with the
:12:30. > :12:35.contractor has. -- thank you. And with council officials. What was
:12:35. > :12:39.discussed, Jeremy Balfour? We had an update on where we are since
:12:39. > :12:44.last Thursday and in what of discussion is taking place in
:12:44. > :12:49.regard to this bombshell by the SNP. They have suddenly intervened in a
:12:49. > :12:55.local project and have said you cannot have the money to do what
:12:55. > :13:00.the council wants to do. And the SNP are clearly split on this. One
:13:00. > :13:03.of you from the national government and a second from the local council
:13:03. > :13:10.-- one opinion. The SNP policy for the people of Edinburgh is no
:13:10. > :13:14.longer credible. What is no longer credible is the fact this project
:13:14. > :13:18.has been so badly managed that the SNP government would be failing in
:13:18. > :13:23.their duty and their legal obligations were afraid to provide
:13:23. > :13:28.you with any more cash, unless she come up with a profitable route,
:13:28. > :13:32.which is not what you are proposing at the moment. A few people do not
:13:32. > :13:36.understand, there is a difference between a project and a contract
:13:36. > :13:42.and what we decided last Thursday was we wanted to get out of a
:13:42. > :13:47.contract as soon as possible and get the trams to Haymarket as. We
:13:47. > :13:53.then said we wanted to we procure to get the tram as far as we could
:13:53. > :13:58.with the money. How much would that cost? We have to wait and see. And
:13:58. > :14:03.those figures would only be available at that stage Sam Michael
:14:03. > :14:07.White is that acceptable to wait and see. -- at that stage. The
:14:07. > :14:11.public have lost confidence in those figures and now you say it
:14:11. > :14:16.will cost more and when you get that done, it even more, and we
:14:16. > :14:22.cannot tell you what that will be. This has become just incredible,
:14:22. > :14:27.literally. What is happened is week as councillors have been given
:14:27. > :14:32.advice. We have been given reports and have acted on those. And we are
:14:32. > :14:36.not just councils -- and these are not just council decisions,
:14:36. > :14:40.transport Scotland, the Scottish government, all said the figures we
:14:40. > :14:45.had when we made the original decision that SNP councillors
:14:45. > :14:50.backed was credible and financially all right and we went ahead on that
:14:50. > :14:54.basis. We have been let down by other people's. Lesley Hinds,
:14:54. > :15:00.looking at the specifics of what you discussed with the contract is
:15:00. > :15:07.tonight, what new figures did you get, what is your understanding of
:15:07. > :15:11.what it would cost if the contract was cancelled? The discussion, I
:15:11. > :15:15.thought it would be a way forward. And it was reasonably constructive
:15:15. > :15:20.and was the first time in four years all the parties have been
:15:20. > :15:24.sitting round to discuss that. And it was the first time we had a
:15:24. > :15:31.discussion with the contract has. People will be absolutely
:15:31. > :15:35.astonished that is the case, sorry to interrupt you, but I imagine a
:15:35. > :15:40.lot of people will be thinking, how can we have got to the stage and
:15:40. > :15:44.this is the first time you have had this to -- you have had
:15:44. > :15:50.constructive discussions about the specifics? What figures you can now
:15:50. > :15:55.save are absolutely the case? understand it, if the contract was
:15:55. > :16:02.cancelled, it would be around �161 million to cancel it and that
:16:02. > :16:08.funding would come from the revenue budget from next year which would
:16:08. > :16:13.mean cuts. You are asking the figures are we have been given this
:16:13. > :16:18.evening and I am trying to explain that. Those are the figures we have
:16:18. > :16:25.been given today. I want to confirm something, is it your understanding
:16:25. > :16:32.of the contract consolation costs are negotiable? -- that the
:16:32. > :16:35.contract. And understanding is that is the cost we have been told, 161
:16:35. > :16:41.million -- our understanding. Conflicting advice has been given
:16:41. > :16:45.to the council, undermining public confidence, because the advice is
:16:45. > :16:50.that these contract costs are negotiable were they to be
:16:50. > :16:54.cancelled, and secondly that Lothian bosses for example could
:16:54. > :17:00.refuse to subsidise this whole enterprise -- bosses. So there are
:17:00. > :17:06.a lot of a knowns. So could the contract cost speak negotiable and
:17:06. > :17:11.do they not have to be paid in a year? -- Could the contract costs
:17:11. > :17:15.be negotiable. We are going with what we have been told and that is
:17:15. > :17:20.frustrating because the figures can change from one day to the next.
:17:20. > :17:25.What was fascinating about your interview with John Swinney is his
:17:25. > :17:28.SNP government in 2007 took transport Scotland away from the
:17:28. > :17:33.management of the tram company, they took them off and washed their
:17:33. > :17:39.hands of this. Then all of a sudden, of this week, they come forward and
:17:39. > :17:44.say they will do with -- say they will withdraw funding. John Swinney
:17:44. > :17:47.has had no responsibility for this in four years and insisted
:17:47. > :17:52.transports Scotland came off the project management board. But we
:17:52. > :17:57.have also made it clear that the government has responsibilities not
:17:57. > :18:01.to finance projects there are not viable. They have to exercise
:18:01. > :18:07.responsibility in how they spend public money. They have supported
:18:07. > :18:11.you but now say, as many people agree with, that stopping it at
:18:11. > :18:15.Haymarket is an absurd decision, to quote the finance secretary. That
:18:16. > :18:20.is the feeling among a lot of people, so you cannot make it
:18:20. > :18:25.financially viable to stop it at Haymarket. We now hear that you do
:18:25. > :18:32.not have costings for that. The made a decision on the facts and
:18:32. > :18:37.figures we had and we believed the Haymarket option was the least risk.
:18:37. > :18:42.We were given a guaranteed prize for the Haymarket option but not a
:18:42. > :18:47.guaranteed price for the option of St Andrews Square. If I could just
:18:47. > :18:50.say about the subsidy, I have met with Lothian at Transport today and
:18:50. > :18:55.they have said they had no involvement at all about the
:18:55. > :18:58.figures regarding the option to go to the Haymarket. They were asked
:18:59. > :19:03.for input into the auction of St Andrews Square and New Haven but
:19:03. > :19:08.have had no involvement in Haymarket figures. So we have to
:19:08. > :19:13.question as elected members that information we are being given at
:19:13. > :19:17.3.1 million, to �4 million, which is what they would say would be an
:19:17. > :19:22.operating cost two Haymarket, and I have to question the figures we
:19:22. > :19:28.have been given and by eight -- we have been given by officials and
:19:28. > :19:34.others who come forward with these statistics. Jeremy Balfour, what
:19:34. > :19:38.comes out is astonishing. You are basing so much of the cost of this
:19:38. > :19:46.project on figures that have never been discussed with anybody. Are
:19:46. > :19:51.you satisfied Lothian at transport is obliged to pay this subsidy? --
:19:51. > :19:55.below the and bosses. Week as a Conservative group were the only
:19:55. > :20:00.group who wanted to terminate this contract -- we as. The amazing
:20:00. > :20:05.thing that happened is that the SNP and for the last five years have
:20:05. > :20:10.said they opposed the tram project were not willing to vote with us to
:20:10. > :20:13.terminate this -- who for the last. If we had terminated at last
:20:13. > :20:21.Thursday, we would not be discussing it tonight. --
:20:21. > :20:25.terminated it. What about the utilities? A survey recently
:20:25. > :20:32.indicated 550 conflicts between the final design and positions of
:20:32. > :20:37.utility pipes and cables on Princes Street particularly into Shandwick
:20:37. > :20:43.Place. The contingency budget for this has been cut to under 10%,
:20:43. > :20:48.which is the absolute base people normally put in for an emergency
:20:48. > :20:52.contingencies in this project. Is it inevitable if this project goes
:20:52. > :20:57.ahead at Princes Street and up Shandwick Place that there will be
:20:57. > :20:59.multi-million-pound problems in terms of utilities? That was a
:21:00. > :21:04.concern in regard to St Andrews Square a we did not have a
:21:04. > :21:09.guaranteed fixed price. -- and we did not. We thought there was too
:21:09. > :21:13.much risk to go to St Andrews Square and so we propose to
:21:13. > :21:23.terminate the contract, at the preferred option, and the least bad
:21:23. > :21:23.
:21:24. > :21:29.option was to go to Haymarket. Too much risk was to go to St Andrews -
:21:29. > :21:35.- St Andrews's. You do not have any option but to change your mind
:21:35. > :21:39.about this on Friday, do you? not have a report or information in
:21:39. > :21:45.front of me and we are waiting and trying to find out as much as we
:21:45. > :21:48.can before Friday. I have a concern that by Friday, we as elected
:21:48. > :21:54.members will not have the information to make a really good
:21:54. > :22:00.decisions. Will you ever have that information? I feel that is the
:22:00. > :22:03.frustrating part for elected members. The administration, the
:22:03. > :22:07.SNP and Liberal Democrat administration who are running this
:22:07. > :22:12.council, they keep everything to themselves. Today was the first
:22:12. > :22:22.time I feel we sat around as all groups to take a way forward for
:22:22. > :22:24.
:22:24. > :22:30.this project. Thank you both. The papers tomorrow, the Herald is
:22:30. > :22:35.leading with the Old Firm in backlash over sectarianism. And the
:22:35. > :22:45.Scotsman, the Catholic QC warns of bigotry after his split from the UK.
:22:45. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:54.That's all from me. I will be back Only one more day left of this
:22:54. > :23:00.course a map and it looks like it will be another cool day. -- of
:23:00. > :23:07.this bad summer. Some sunshine, but the cloud will fill in into the
:23:07. > :23:11.afternoon. Quite bright for west. It looks like it will be dry.
:23:11. > :23:16.Drive through the Midlands and towards East Anglia, a little
:23:16. > :23:21.sunshine. -- it will be dry. Not bad on the south coast,
:23:21. > :23:26.particularly Cornwall and Devon. Temperatures up to 18 degrees.
:23:26. > :23:31.Underneath the cloud, as most of Wales will be in the afternoon,
:23:31. > :23:34.temperatures a little lower. Rather cool in Northern Ireland again,
:23:34. > :23:39.light winds and if you see sunshine it will not be too bad, but for
:23:39. > :23:43.most of the day it will be cloudy. We start with sunshine and increase
:23:43. > :23:48.clad in Scotland, some light showers, but many places will be
:23:48. > :23:52.dry. Quite cloudy. Temperatures on Wednesday a little up on today but
:23:52. > :23:59.it warms up fervour on Thursday with brighter skies and probably
:23:59. > :24:04.more sunshine -- further. Bigger picture across the UK on Thursday.