:00:08. > :00:11.declaration of liberation, as they put it. Tonight on Newsnight
:00:11. > :00:14.Scotland, this week, a double whammy of Cabinet ministers have
:00:14. > :00:20.come north to tell us of the risks of independence and the benefits of
:00:20. > :00:24.the union. Is this the beginning of the unionist fightback? And where
:00:24. > :00:28.is Scotland's largest unionist party, Labour, in all of this?
:00:28. > :00:31.Good evening. As we anticipate the return of MSPs to Holyrood next
:00:31. > :00:35.week, the political atmosphere has been stirred by the Westminster end
:00:35. > :00:39.of government. This week, following meetings in Downing Street, we have
:00:39. > :00:42.what could be called a Lib Dem offensive. The Scottish Secretary
:00:42. > :00:47.reminded Scots, in case we had forgotten, that he too plays a role
:00:47. > :00:50.in running the country, not just the SNP. Less than an hour ago, the
:00:50. > :00:55.Chief Secretary to the Treasury weighed in with doom-laden warnings
:00:55. > :00:57.and declared, United We Stand. Does it amount to a frontal attack, and
:00:57. > :01:02.shouldn't the main Holyrood opposition party, Labour, be doing
:01:02. > :01:12.this job? As Parliament prepares to return, Derek Bateman asks, who is
:01:12. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:21.making the case for Unionism? Summer is over, and the children
:01:21. > :01:26.are going back to school. As the doors are flung open to welcome the
:01:26. > :01:30.noisy scamps, they have already been some scraps during the holes.
:01:30. > :01:35.I like the class bully was told by head boy Michael to get his lessons
:01:35. > :01:45.dump and stop staring out of the window at the big boys' games. But
:01:45. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :01:51.Alec said he wants to win all the prizes for himself. -- Alex.
:01:51. > :01:54.Michael Moore is still in short trousers when it comes to take in
:01:54. > :01:59.on the nationalists and stopping any referendum progress in its
:01:59. > :02:05.tracks. His first attempt led to some ridicule. He is against the
:02:05. > :02:09.referendum, but then said he wants two, one consultative and the other
:02:09. > :02:15.definitive. Last night, his tough new approach at the David Hume
:02:15. > :02:20.Institute was to ask the SNP questions. When EU membership,
:02:20. > :02:23.currency, bank regulation and defence. They have been
:02:23. > :02:28.uncharacteristically shy in setting out exactly what it is that
:02:28. > :02:32.independence would look like and what it would cost. They have been
:02:32. > :02:38.reticent about what they even mean by independents. But the rest of us,
:02:38. > :02:43.who believe in the constitution and the development of a modern UK must
:02:43. > :02:50.not be complacent about making the case for Scotland's continued
:02:50. > :02:53.presence in the UK. Westminster's man in Scotland has to seek
:02:53. > :02:58.clarification from the government in Edinburgh. Voters will want
:02:58. > :03:01.answers to such questions, but this only underlines how it is the
:03:01. > :03:05.nationalists who command the agenda. Mr more explicitly concedes this
:03:05. > :03:08.when he says there is an implication that the Scottish
:03:09. > :03:12.government alone stands up for Scotland, and in assiduous
:03:12. > :03:22.narrative, he says, that has taken root and ignores the other
:03:22. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:28.government, his own. That is a bit pathetic. Yes, the Westminster
:03:28. > :03:32.government is a real one, but that case has not been made for a
:03:32. > :03:35.variety of reasons. A Liberal Democrats are putting a
:03:35. > :03:40.Conservative government with only one MP in Scotland to talk about
:03:40. > :03:45.mandates will be in a difficult place. Tonight, Danny Alexander
:03:45. > :03:48.continued the Lib Dem 12, lumping Scotland with �65 billion of
:03:48. > :03:53.national debt and putting an independent Scotland alongside
:03:53. > :03:59.Ireland and Iceland. Oil revenues will fall, he said. Safer in the
:03:59. > :04:02.Union. Next week, MSPs returned to Holyrood to hear the SNP
:04:02. > :04:06.legislative programme. Opposition Members will look for something to
:04:06. > :04:10.oppose, but only out of mischief. They cannot vote anything down.
:04:10. > :04:14.They do not have the numbers. Labour has been left effectively
:04:14. > :04:21.leaderless, struck dumb by the imminent publication of the Murphy
:04:21. > :04:27.report on party reform. Even the report author seems to be defensive.
:04:27. > :04:31.Every time I've come to talk about defence policy, you always ask
:04:31. > :04:36.questions about the Labour Party. It is a matter your voters will
:04:36. > :04:41.want details on. So do I! I am as impatient as everyone else. We have
:04:41. > :04:44.got to go through the process. There is an interesting contrast
:04:44. > :04:48.between the Labour Party in Scotland now and the Tories after
:04:48. > :04:53.their 2000 and five defeats. Tories after 2005 spend the summer
:04:53. > :04:56.debating the way forward with different Vic -- different visions
:04:56. > :05:00.from David Davis and David Cameron. We have had none of that from
:05:00. > :05:04.Labour this summer. In fact, they have seen to have decided that they
:05:04. > :05:08.did not hate Alex Salmond as much in the run-up to the last election,
:05:08. > :05:13.and if they can show that they hate him more, that will somehow works.
:05:13. > :05:17.We have had the slaughter of the Lib Dems and the stalling of the
:05:18. > :05:24.Tories, and Labour are also looking friendlier. The Labour Party need
:05:25. > :05:28.to rip things up and start again. They need to firstly say why Labour
:05:28. > :05:31.values mean Scotland should be in the Union. They should create a
:05:31. > :05:37.framework from that so that they can argue a positive case for
:05:37. > :05:41.Scotland being in the Union. Then they have to reach out to the
:05:41. > :05:49.people of Scotland. There is too small a gene pool at the moment of
:05:50. > :05:53.people that could be representing Powerful governments can stumble.
:05:53. > :05:58.When you rise above all others, there is nowhere to hide and
:05:58. > :06:03.further to fall. But if he continues to flag wave successfully,
:06:03. > :06:08.his opponents will have to resort to the policy of no, no fee, no,
:06:09. > :06:12.the same negative message rejected in May. At least until the
:06:12. > :06:17.coalition finds the circumstances to bring some pomp back to the
:06:17. > :06:27.Union. I am joined by Ken Macintosh -- Ken
:06:27. > :06:30.Macintosh, Derek Mackay, and Iain Macwhirter. Thank you for coming.
:06:30. > :06:36.Ken Macintosh, would you like to declare on the programme this
:06:36. > :06:40.evening? Not just yet. We are still going up to read a party review.
:06:40. > :06:46.And trying to work out why we had such a poor result in May is the
:06:46. > :06:52.most important thing. And when you say just yet, it is just a matter
:06:52. > :06:55.of time, is it? If I will declare when it is time to! I will make a
:06:55. > :07:02.declaration when that time... I think it would be presumptuous
:07:03. > :07:08.otherwise. If you feel like firming it up get back to me.
:07:08. > :07:12.The yen, a 21 listening to what Michael Moran Stanley Alexander are
:07:12. > :07:17.saying this evening, do you think that they are managing to put out
:07:17. > :07:23.some coherent vision of the unions for the next 100 years? It sounds
:07:23. > :07:28.very tired staff. I think if that is the best they can do, the last
:07:28. > :07:31.person to leave the union, please turn out the light. This stuff
:07:31. > :07:35.about banks and the financial rescue is largely being discredited
:07:35. > :07:39.even by the Financial Times. I do not think anyone believes Scotland
:07:39. > :07:43.would not be able to continue economically if it were independent.
:07:43. > :07:48.There is have caused a doubt about what the SNP mean about
:07:48. > :07:53.independence, that this is not the way to combat it. Before we move
:07:53. > :07:56.into the specifics of the core policies, let's look at what you
:07:56. > :07:59.highlighted there, a contentions that had been put forward are the
:08:00. > :08:04.ones that we heard from Gordon Brown 15 years ago and they have
:08:04. > :08:08.been discredited. What does it tell us about the nature of the debate
:08:08. > :08:13.we will be going into if there is that fundamental issue there that
:08:13. > :08:19.some voters may find very disrespectful? We find ourselves in
:08:19. > :08:23.a difficult situation. The Unionist case is going by default. The three
:08:23. > :08:27.Unionist parties are leaderless and they show no obvious signs of
:08:27. > :08:31.finding any leadership. And Labour, the most successful Democratic
:08:31. > :08:35.Party in Scottish history, his left and his appalling dilemma when no
:08:35. > :08:38.one wants to lead it. They say they are having a breathing space and it
:08:38. > :08:42.is fine for them to do this because they need to sort themselves out.
:08:42. > :08:46.But it looks more like they are breathing their last. And they
:08:46. > :08:50.should be fighting, struggling, standing on each other's shoulders
:08:50. > :08:55.to get a lead the party. But the evidence as far as we know is that
:08:55. > :09:02.there is virtually nothing happening. And this review, I have
:09:02. > :09:03.spoken to people who submitted material to lead, and I can tell
:09:03. > :09:11.you that they are pretty disappointment with its
:09:11. > :09:15.effectiveness. Whatever you politics, this should be a dynamic,
:09:15. > :09:20.exciting time, when in Scotland you can say you are, what you want and
:09:20. > :09:25.where you want to go. All these big choices and debates. But there does
:09:25. > :09:31.not seem to be any dynamism about this debate. Why not, and why is
:09:31. > :09:37.Labour so completely flat in all of this? Labour are not flat in any of
:09:37. > :09:41.this. First of all, the argument Ian is talking about is one for
:09:41. > :09:45.separatism. I would like to correct something. I am not a Unionist, I
:09:45. > :09:50.am for evolution. I believe evolution has been very successful
:09:50. > :09:53.and I believe we can take control of our own affairs. We have shown
:09:53. > :09:57.that a Scottish Parliament is usually successful in giving
:09:57. > :10:01.Scotland confidence to take control of health, but to keep talking
:10:01. > :10:06.about constitutional issues and to separate us off from the rest of
:10:06. > :10:11.the UK, that does not improve bad health, our Equality, it does not
:10:11. > :10:15.make this a fairer country. It might make us more separate. If you
:10:15. > :10:19.think you have a positive message to sell, why is no one articulating
:10:19. > :10:24.it? And can you afford to be as relaxed as you seem to be, almost
:10:25. > :10:30.bordering on indifference, about what happens here? We are certainly
:10:30. > :10:35.not indifferent, nor are we relaxed. We are undergoing a major review.
:10:35. > :10:40.We had the worst result in a long long time in Scotland. And we have
:10:40. > :10:44.to make sure that people remember Labour's values. I want to rekindle
:10:44. > :10:49.the spirit of 1999, that enthusiasm about the birth of the Scottish
:10:50. > :10:53.Parliament. But things have moved on fundamentally since then. I do
:10:53. > :10:57.not think Labour's values have moved on since there, and we had
:10:57. > :11:00.clearly lost the support of the Scottish people. But that is over
:11:01. > :11:07.policy choices and the business of government as opposed to the values,
:11:07. > :11:11.of which I believe we still have in common. Social justice, fairness so,
:11:11. > :11:15.not building a separate Scotland but a fairer Scotland. That is what
:11:15. > :11:20.the Labour Party is about. But we have to re-engage and that is not
:11:20. > :11:26.an easy task. And can I say, it is far more important than talking
:11:26. > :11:30.about constitutional issues, which I think most people I left cold by.
:11:30. > :11:34.Derek Mackie, other than that, it is by constitutional issues that
:11:34. > :11:40.you reach the points the various parties want to reach on this
:11:40. > :11:45.journey. What I would say to you tonight, the CBI are saying that in
:11:45. > :11:49.Scotland, look, whether there is independence or not, get on with
:11:49. > :11:54.the referendum. All this is bad for business, it creates uncertainty is
:11:54. > :11:59.hanging around and not knowing what the question will be, when it will
:11:59. > :12:02.come Hough, of what it will involved. On the contrary, what the
:12:02. > :12:06.SNP want to do is build up confidence in Scotland, and we will
:12:06. > :12:11.do that by governing competently as we have always done, if at
:12:11. > :12:15.encouraging a positive debate about what Scotland could be. It could be
:12:15. > :12:19.healthier, Ferre and green a nation with the powers that independence
:12:19. > :12:23.could bring. And we will build up that confidence over the years to
:12:23. > :12:27.come. The only uncertainty that is coming as part of this debate is
:12:27. > :12:33.coming from the Unionist parties that do not have a positive idea
:12:33. > :12:38.about what Cup -- Scotland could do. The counter-argument to that, as is
:12:38. > :12:42.that the point of not rocking the boat in the last Parliament is to
:12:42. > :12:45.prove you could govern. Now you do not seem to want to do it is time
:12:45. > :12:50.either. So you are not going to make a hard choices that Scotland
:12:50. > :12:56.needs to have taken within his next parliamentary term, for political
:12:56. > :13:01.reasons of your own death. A hard choices are unavoidable stop there
:13:01. > :13:05.will be a day-to-day good government, and also the debate
:13:05. > :13:09.about Scotland's future, in which we build up the confidence of this
:13:09. > :13:14.nation, to be a positive and outward-looking nation that takes
:13:14. > :13:19.its place in the world. Just to clarify. What does independence
:13:19. > :13:23.actually mean? It means that the ball Scotland would get the
:13:23. > :13:27.Government a vote for. Not a UK government they did not vote for
:13:27. > :13:34.that a Scottish one they did vote for. Were due retain the army?
:13:34. > :13:42.would mean is equality, normality, taking a place in the world,
:13:42. > :13:46.quality control. For over the next few years, we will build up a
:13:46. > :13:55.specific policy Portfolio in watch -- what each area will look like.
:13:55. > :14:01.It is important to get it right and take the people of Scotland with us.
:14:02. > :14:08.It can be a very positive dialogue. As we were saying earlier, Dannii
:14:08. > :14:13.Alexander has been speaking to CBI in Glasgow and we were looking at a
:14:13. > :14:18.clip of some of the key points of the speech. The ties between
:14:18. > :14:24.Scotland and the rest of the UK are an essential cornerstone of our
:14:24. > :14:28.economic recovery. Scotland's road to recovery is intimately tied to
:14:28. > :14:33.the recovery of the rest of the UK, and we must work together,
:14:33. > :14:37.politicians and businesses, to capitalise on every opportunity to
:14:37. > :14:40.support the country. We are stronger together, and we are
:14:40. > :14:45.stronger when Scotland's two governments work together, pulling
:14:45. > :14:49.in the same direction for the people of this country. Dannii
:14:49. > :14:56.Alexander. Just to pick up on some of the points you were raising
:14:56. > :15:00.their. Do you think that both sides now have to have a greater clarity
:15:00. > :15:04.to put before the electorate, and sooner rather than later, if we are
:15:04. > :15:09.to have the kind of debate we are entitled to have in Scotland? Do
:15:09. > :15:13.you think there is confusion about what independence means. Yes, I
:15:13. > :15:16.said earlier that the Unionist case is working by default. There is
:15:16. > :15:20.this great questioned about the Scotland Bill which is going
:15:20. > :15:24.through Westminster currently, and will be dominating the next six
:15:24. > :15:29.months. I do not have any indication that the non- leadership
:15:29. > :15:33.of the Unionist parties in Scotland has any idea what they want to do
:15:33. > :15:38.with that. Ken Macintosh is saying it is not about the constitution.
:15:38. > :15:42.It is about the constitution. It is also about Labour's constitution.
:15:42. > :15:49.If Labour is going to get out of this mess it Hastie establish
:15:49. > :15:53.itself as a Scottish party with its own leader in Scotland. But the
:15:53. > :15:58.situation for the SNP, there are political opportunities here which
:15:59. > :16:03.will arise. The SNP did not expect to win an absolute majority, no one
:16:03. > :16:07.expected that. They do not have a script for this. They do not have a
:16:07. > :16:09.clear idea of what they want to do, because in the past they did not
:16:09. > :16:14.have to because what they could do was constrained by what the other
:16:14. > :16:18.parties would allow a. Now they are their own masters, and it is not
:16:18. > :16:26.clear what their agenda will be. In that situation, they could become
:16:26. > :16:30.the victim of events. And we could possibly see, like this week with
:16:30. > :16:34.the trams fiasco where John Swinney had to overturn the decision of
:16:34. > :16:39.Edinburgh Council and put his name on the project. That could be a
:16:39. > :16:44.disaster waiting to happen. Whatever is waiting for them in the
:16:44. > :16:48.long grass, why would it be that if you have this majority now, nothing
:16:48. > :16:53.teenager has happened so far, your opponents are on the backs that,
:16:53. > :16:57.why not bring forward the referendum? Why wait there for the
:16:57. > :17:01.events you're talking about to come about? So well, because they would
:17:01. > :17:06.lose it! They will not have a referendum any time soon. They will
:17:06. > :17:13.leave it to later in the parliament. Hopefully after the UK Coalition
:17:13. > :17:17.has disintegrated and perhaps there is a Tory government after the 2015
:17:17. > :17:21.General Election, against that backdrop they might be able to get
:17:21. > :17:24.a majority in Scotland for independence. But they will
:17:24. > :17:32.certainly not do it when they would lose it, they will leave it as late
:17:32. > :17:37.as possible. Ian, in terms of public, you know, positive and
:17:37. > :17:41.constructive public engagement in this. I N soundings girlishly
:17:41. > :17:46.enthusiastic about that concept, but how does this have to be
:17:46. > :17:49.structured to? What will it take to have a realistic debate about this
:17:49. > :17:53.is in which the issues are run adequately addressed on a
:17:53. > :17:58.reasonable timescale? If you are talking about the independence
:17:58. > :18:01.referendum, the problems are that the way things are going it might
:18:01. > :18:05.get through by default because the other parties do not want to get
:18:05. > :18:12.into the game at all. They are coming out with these tired
:18:12. > :18:17.arguments. They have to find some new arguments. They know -- they do
:18:17. > :18:21.not appear to be interested in promoting at. Labour is --
:18:21. > :18:26.completely adrift, and leaderless. This is a real national crisis we
:18:26. > :18:33.have here. They have to be an opposition as well as a government.
:18:33. > :18:40.Thank you very much. A quick look at the papers. The