:00:03. > :00:13.be opposed by everyone who has ability to speak up. Thank you.
:00:13. > :00:17.
:00:17. > :00:21.On tonight's programme: Say what you really men.
:00:21. > :00:29.There is no future for the Scottish Conservative and unionist party in
:00:29. > :00:34.its current forplt. We'll ask -- form. We'll ask Murdo Fraser where
:00:34. > :00:40.the party that want to wield will result in nothing more than
:00:40. > :00:44.derision and bitter in-fighting. I am ashamed and embarrassed as a
:00:44. > :00:48.Scottish Conservative - the words of a man who says he wants to lead
:00:48. > :00:54.the Tories in England. Murdo Fraser's pitch to the faithful can
:00:54. > :01:04.be summed up as "abandon ship." In a speech which will be seen as
:01:04. > :01:10.brave or foolish, he described the party as "Not fit for purpose." One
:01:10. > :01:15.of the biggest financier said it had left members scandallised.
:01:15. > :01:25.We will hear from Murdo Fraser in a few minutes. First David Allison
:01:25. > :01:32.has this report. Things were not always so desperate. In 1955 the
:01:32. > :01:36.Blue Bell Parker was in the charts. Eden was re-elected as Prime
:01:36. > :01:44.Minister. With his party in Scotland getting 50% of the popular
:01:44. > :01:49.vote. A decade later n1968, a pro- devolution Ted Heath promised home
:01:49. > :01:53.rule. A Scottish assembly to sit in Scotland.
:01:53. > :02:01.Things changed in the '80s with the arrival of Margaret Thatcher and
:02:01. > :02:05.the poll tax, the end result when Labour had a landslide victory in
:02:05. > :02:08.1997 was annihilation for the Scottish Conservatives. Perhaps I
:02:09. > :02:13.should acknowledge that reports of my demise were not exaggerated.
:02:13. > :02:19.They lost every single MP in one fell swoop. Now, as my children
:02:19. > :02:27.would say, it's time for me to get a life. Thank you very much.
:02:27. > :02:31.leafy suburb like East Wood here in Glasgow should rebe returning
:02:31. > :02:40.Conservative MPs on a regular basis. It is not. It is infuriating many
:02:41. > :02:46.people in the party. Fraser -- Murdo Fraser says there
:02:46. > :02:49.needs to be a big change. Some observers think the idea of a re-
:02:49. > :02:54.branded party with loser apron strings tying it to London will be
:02:54. > :03:00.a hard sell. No-one else votes other than members. They might say,
:03:00. > :03:05.If we vote for this guy we voting to wind up the party we love."
:03:05. > :03:11.Murdo Fraser's view of the future has proved controversial with other
:03:11. > :03:15.candidates. There's a fine line between being radical and reckless.
:03:15. > :03:20.There are serious questions about what SNPs would do and whether they
:03:20. > :03:24.would want to be part of a new break away party or whether they
:03:24. > :03:34.would remain party of the family. There is mixed reaction among
:03:34. > :03:41.
:03:41. > :03:46.Another funder will be. The last 14-15 years we have arranged the
:03:46. > :03:51.chairs on the Titanic really. First Minister was eager to intrude
:03:51. > :03:54.on other's grief. They are saying they want to be independent as a
:03:54. > :03:58.political party. The reaction of the Conservative Party in London so
:03:58. > :04:03.far seems to have been fairly relaxed, possibly because
:04:03. > :04:08.anything's worth a try. The most impressive thing about the Scottish
:04:08. > :04:13.elections for the Tories the only place where the Labour vote held up
:04:13. > :04:18.is where it was Labour verses the Tories. That has persuaded them the
:04:18. > :04:21.brand is over the water. Winding back seats like Eastwood is
:04:21. > :04:25.something that all want to achieve. It will be dominations closing at
:04:25. > :04:35.the end of this month, campaigning throughout October with the result
:04:35. > :04:38.
:04:38. > :04:46.known on 4th November. Ceures are growing to an enormous
:04:46. > :04:54.size and power. When the Tories celebrated in 1955 there was an
:04:54. > :05:04.alien conspiracy which was trying to take power and turn everyone
:05:04. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:10.into zombies. The one now should That was David Allison reporting
:05:10. > :05:14.the zombies. A short time ago I was joined by Murdo Fraser and began by
:05:14. > :05:18.asking him how long he had been ashamed and embarrassed to have
:05:18. > :05:21.been a member of the Scottish Tories? The crunch point was the
:05:21. > :05:25.general election last year, where despite all the efforts made by our
:05:25. > :05:30.party in our target seats we made little progress and in fact went
:05:30. > :05:33.backwards in too many of them and retain only one Member of
:05:33. > :05:39.Parliament. I started to worry about the future of our party and
:05:39. > :05:42.that concern was confirmed at the election earlier this year, where
:05:42. > :05:47.despite excellent leadership and a narrative going into the election
:05:47. > :05:51.we've never had before as a party, nonetheless we lost seats and yet
:05:51. > :05:56.more votes. I decided, as have many of my colleagues in the Scottish
:05:56. > :06:01.party, it is time for a radical re- think. You have been hammered since
:06:01. > :06:05.1997, only dawned on you in 2010 that something needed to change.
:06:05. > :06:12.always thought things would get better. We tried new policies. We
:06:12. > :06:18.tried policy reviews. We tried organisational restructuring. We
:06:18. > :06:22.had great leaders, and despite all that, we have just been going
:06:22. > :06:26.backwards. Now is the time for a fresh start, which is exactly what
:06:26. > :06:30.I'm proposing. Let's be clear, if we can be, there's been debate
:06:30. > :06:33.about whether this party will be disbanded or not. Are you planning
:06:33. > :06:40.to kill off the Scottish Conservative and unionist party or
:06:40. > :06:45.not? I have never used the word "Disband." What I am proposing to
:06:45. > :06:49.do is create from the existing Scottish Conservative and Unionist
:06:49. > :06:53.Party a new progressive, centre- right party. That would not be
:06:53. > :06:57.called the Conservative Party, would it? What I have said on the
:06:57. > :07:01.name is I am not proposing a new name. There should be a new name.
:07:01. > :07:04.If I am successful we'll have a consultation. The only name I rule
:07:04. > :07:09.out is the current name because I think we need to demonstrate a
:07:09. > :07:12.change. Very importantly, this new party I am proposing would be a
:07:12. > :07:16.sister party of the UK Conservative Party. People we elect to the House
:07:16. > :07:19.of Commons would sit in support of David Cameron and a future
:07:19. > :07:24.Conservative Government. That would be a massive improvement, I believe,
:07:24. > :07:30.on the situation we have stod, where we only have one -- today,
:07:30. > :07:34.where we only have one MP. Can you give me a policy other than the
:07:34. > :07:40.Common Fisheries Policy where you disagree with David Cameron in his
:07:40. > :07:46.administration? I don't disagree on an awful lot. We are all come from
:07:46. > :07:51.the same area of politics. We are centre of right. We share the same
:07:51. > :07:55.values. It would be unusual if we were to have.... Sorry? It is a
:07:55. > :08:01.different name, but same cast of characters and same policies.
:08:01. > :08:07.are start from the same values. Let me give you an example. At the
:08:07. > :08:11.heart of our new centre right progressive party would be a belief
:08:12. > :08:16.in decentralisation. A belief in passing power down from Westminster
:08:16. > :08:21.to Holyrood, from Holyrood to local Government, to communities and
:08:21. > :08:24.individuals. That is entirely in tune with mainstream centre-right
:08:24. > :08:26.opinion across the world. It probably has not been a
:08:26. > :08:31.characteristic of the modern Conservative Party either in
:08:31. > :08:35.Scotland or across in the UK in recent years. That sound as if you
:08:35. > :08:39.are willing to go beyond the Scotland Bill proposals. That is
:08:39. > :08:44.something you say you are open- minded to. What do you mean?
:08:44. > :08:51.means that. We've got the Scotland Bill coming. That recommends a
:08:51. > :08:55.major transfer of power to Holyrood and will create a financially
:08:55. > :08:59.accountable Holyrood. Do you rule out rather than that? I plan to
:08:59. > :09:03.have a proper debate in our party about whether to go further.
:09:03. > :09:07.much further? In time, I think we should consider whether we go
:09:07. > :09:11.further. The first is this, any further devolution must be
:09:11. > :09:15.demonstrated to strengthen the United Kingdom. It must be
:09:15. > :09:20.considered on a pragmatic basis. Your new policy is supporting
:09:20. > :09:25.devolution and then I ask you, what further powers you would like to
:09:25. > :09:30.see devolved and you cannot come up with any? The political prior for
:09:30. > :09:35.us -- priority for us to day is fighting the plans to brick up
:09:35. > :09:40.Britain and where our energys will go is campaigning energy gettically
:09:40. > :09:46.for a "no" vote, and seeing off Alex Salmond's plans. How will you
:09:46. > :09:51.pay for this new party? If you were at Milanch you quould have seen a
:09:51. > :09:54.number of new donors among the many I have spoken to who have been
:09:54. > :09:58.Scottish supporters, who have been fed up with the fact that over the
:09:58. > :10:08.years they have put money in and they think it has been wasted.
:10:08. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:15.name three people. Jon McGlin, - �2,555. Robert, who
:10:15. > :10:22.has donated �6,000 and I cannot find any donation from Robert Gib
:10:22. > :10:25.bons, somebody you quote in your press release. Sir Jack Harvey,
:10:25. > :10:29.whose organisation has given hundreds of thousands of pounds,
:10:29. > :10:32.says he would not give you a penny. They are all wealthy individuals
:10:32. > :10:36.who have stopped giving money to the Conservative Party because they
:10:36. > :10:40.are so frustrated with the lack of political progress. They are
:10:40. > :10:45.interested in supporting us. They have promised how much? I will not
:10:45. > :10:50.discuss on air, with respect, actual sums involved. Although I
:10:50. > :10:55.think Robert Gibbons was talking about his ability to raise as much
:10:55. > :10:59.as �500,000. I know, because I was talking to many donors, many of
:10:59. > :11:02.these people do not want their names put out on air, who say they
:11:02. > :11:08.are frustrated because they put money into the Conservative Party
:11:08. > :11:12.in Scotland and they get nothing back. They are looking for a change
:11:12. > :11:16.and are prepared to support a change. If you don't win the
:11:17. > :11:22.leadership, there's no way you can stay as a member of the Scottish
:11:22. > :11:26.Conservative Party and Yuerst Party given how annoyed you have made
:11:26. > :11:31.some financial backers. You will have to resign from the party?
:11:31. > :11:35.in this election to win it. I am heartened by the enthusiastic
:11:35. > :11:40.support from Holyrood and from local councillors, from activists
:11:40. > :11:46.and senior figures. Malcolm Rifkind, who has endorsed what I am
:11:46. > :11:50.proposing. Today I see Lord Tebbit has come out and endorsed what I am
:11:50. > :11:54.proposing. That arch unionist. There's a great deal of support.
:11:54. > :12:00.Allvy to do is convince our members this is the right thing to do. Like
:12:00. > :12:05.me, they are fed up.... I am not in this election to lose it. I'm in it
:12:05. > :12:08.to win it. Compared to other candidates I have serious, top-
:12:08. > :12:11.level backing from colleagues. For anybody wanting to be a leader has
:12:11. > :12:16.to demonstrate they can win over the people they work with, first of
:12:16. > :12:20.all. I think I've been able to do that. Murdo Fraser, thank you for
:12:20. > :12:24.your time. We will speak to the other leadership candidates over
:12:24. > :12:27.the course of the next few weeks. What do those who have been out
:12:27. > :12:32.selling the Tory brand on the doorsteps make of all of this? We
:12:32. > :12:36.are joined by three former candidates. In the capital is Miles
:12:36. > :12:41.Briggs and Iain McGill. With me here is Stephanie Fraser. Do you
:12:41. > :12:45.think Murdo Fraser has been brave or pompous? I suppose time will
:12:45. > :12:49.tell, really. I find it very depressing that somebody standing
:12:49. > :12:55.for the leadership of our party and the first thing we've heard from
:12:55. > :12:59.him is he wants to throw it all out and start again. I'm very proud to
:12:59. > :13:04.be a Conservative and have enjoyed being a Scottish Conservative
:13:04. > :13:07.candidate. I think there are many things that we need to do. A huge
:13:07. > :13:12.job ahead for who ever is the leader. One thing I am very
:13:12. > :13:19.depressed about is he wants to tear it up and start again. You think it
:13:19. > :13:22.is a mistake then? I do. Yes. Briggs, is he being brave? He's
:13:22. > :13:25.giving us a great opportunity to connect with the people of Scotland.
:13:26. > :13:29.It is clear from the election results that people in Scotland
:13:29. > :13:36.aren't supporting this because they don't believe in our party any more.
:13:36. > :13:42.What he's suggesting, I think is a real alternative which gives us a
:13:42. > :13:46.opportunity to establish ourselves as a political party in Scotland.
:13:46. > :13:50.Where's the policy platform? said he would go back to pre-party,
:13:50. > :13:54.1965. That was a party which had great success in Scotland. Your
:13:54. > :13:57.piece suggested that. We were seen as an independent Scotland, running
:13:57. > :13:59.Scotland here, answerable to the people of Scotland. That is
:13:59. > :14:05.something which is hugely attractive. People watching this
:14:05. > :14:10.programme, I think, will be sitting at home, saying That's where the
:14:10. > :14:14.Tories should be in Scotland. This new force can become a dominant
:14:14. > :14:18.force in Scotland again. Enlighten us as to where David Cameron and
:14:18. > :14:23.the Conservatives in London have been holding the tartan Tories
:14:23. > :14:28.back? I would not say they have held us back. In terms of the
:14:28. > :14:32.political party in Scotland we've not been able to connect with the
:14:32. > :14:36.electorate in Scotland for one reason, being that we are seen as a
:14:36. > :14:40.very much English party, which I think most involved in the party
:14:40. > :14:47.don't agree with or like. It is clear that our opposition to
:14:47. > :14:52.devolution shaped that thinking. Now we've, with the leadership of
:14:52. > :14:59.Murdo, we will be a party run purely in Scotland. That will
:14:59. > :15:04.change people's perception of us. totally disagree. The last thing
:15:04. > :15:08.the electorate need is a history lesson back to 1965. Who ever wins
:15:08. > :15:11.needs to look forward and needs to attract people to our party and
:15:11. > :15:17.understand what it is that we're doing wrong. I mean, you know, we
:15:17. > :15:23.need a new strategy. We don't need a new name. We need a unifying
:15:23. > :15:26.force. We need to look forward and not back. Half of our problem is we
:15:26. > :15:31.have spent our lives looking back rather than forward and what it
:15:31. > :15:36.means to be a Conservative in Scotland. Iain McGill, quite a few
:15:36. > :15:40.members in Scotland will remember back to 1955, won't they? Do you
:15:40. > :15:46.think if Murdo Fraser wins with this idea you will get the fresh
:15:46. > :15:52.blood he's hoping for? I think he started this as a run-away
:15:52. > :15:57.favourite, as an establishment figure is. He has been an SNP for
:15:57. > :16:02.ten years. He's very much started this election as an establishment
:16:02. > :16:08.figure. What we have seen since he has announced his policy is members
:16:08. > :16:13.going "Wait a minute. This is not what we want." Even if Murdo wins
:16:13. > :16:18.this election, it is not a foregone conclusion, he will have a terrible
:16:18. > :16:22.job trying to persuade members that throwing out the embers of the
:16:22. > :16:27.Scottish Conservative Party for some unquantifyable new party
:16:27. > :16:32.without any credible funders. I don't see how he could persuade
:16:32. > :16:36.members to go for that even if they returned him as a leader and maybe
:16:36. > :16:40.seeing the Scottish public voting for Alex Salmond. They don't like
:16:40. > :16:43.his policy of independence for Scotland. They see him as credible
:16:43. > :16:48.enough - a safe pair of hands. I think people are talking about is
:16:48. > :16:52.he out on a limb, will they have to leave the party if he loses. I
:16:52. > :16:56.think Murdo is out on a limb even if he wins. The party will not back
:16:56. > :17:01.him on his number one policy, which is let's kill the Conservative
:17:01. > :17:06.Party in Scotland and start something, anything. Will he have
:17:06. > :17:11.to leave? That will be up to Murdo. Do you think he should leave?
:17:11. > :17:18.think he should leave? I don't see where there's room for him to go.
:17:18. > :17:26.He's been deputy leader. He's waiting for leader. Win or bust?
:17:26. > :17:31.I'm hoping for a win. I think both Stephanie, Iain and myself have
:17:31. > :17:35.spoken to people in different parts of Scotland.
:17:35. > :17:41.Thrashing all the brand that you were trying to sell to the
:17:41. > :17:46.electorate? The brand he has defended for the past 12-and-a-half
:17:46. > :17:53.years. It is clear we're not making progress in our current state.
:17:53. > :17:57.Whose fault is that? The brand is that he's been putting out. In term
:17:57. > :18:01.ofs a party it's not going to hell -- in terms of a party, it's not
:18:01. > :18:05.going to help the party at all. We need to look at ourselves. People
:18:05. > :18:13.in Scotland are not voting for us. This last election we got 12% of
:18:13. > :18:17.the regional list vote. That is the lowest ever in our party's history
:18:17. > :18:21.Murdo Fraser has put on record what he wants to do to the party to see
:18:21. > :18:25.us become, once again, a real political force in Scotland. I know,
:18:25. > :18:29.certainly in terms of the people I have spoken to, who are not party
:18:29. > :18:33.members, the people.... They don't have a vote. They would look to
:18:33. > :18:37.join the party. That's the key. Iain McGill - this is a good point.
:18:37. > :18:42.Whatever you think, anybody looking at the election results can not
:18:42. > :18:47.help but come one a conclusion that the brand is at the very least in
:18:47. > :18:50.trouble and probably bust. That is key here. For a lot of people they
:18:50. > :18:56.like the policies when they hear them. When you say, this is the
:18:56. > :18:59.Conservative Party's policy, they say, well I won't be able to vote
:18:59. > :19:05.for that. Maybe that is the fault of the
:19:05. > :19:11.people representing us. They've had 12-and-a-half years in the Scottish
:19:11. > :19:15.pearl. What -- Parliament. Yes, something has to happen. Just
:19:15. > :19:21.throwing away a party giving us a new name with the same members, the
:19:21. > :19:26.same values, the same policies, I mean do we think the electorate are
:19:26. > :19:29.that stupid? We have not been called the Tories for more than 100
:19:29. > :19:36.years. We are still called the Tories. There's no meat on the
:19:36. > :19:39.bones about what Murdo is proposing. We have not seen apart from the
:19:39. > :19:46.Common Fisheries Policy and the common agricultural policy,
:19:46. > :19:53.Scotland needs a good centre-right alternative. Positively for rolling
:19:53. > :20:01.back the state that makes China and Cuba go, "wow look at the state of
:20:01. > :20:07.their public sector." We want a low tax, a -- an alternative to what we
:20:07. > :20:12.have. Murdo has been leading the party for the last seven years,
:20:12. > :20:18.through quite a few poor election results for us all.
:20:18. > :20:24.You guys have been.... He has been there through many defeats. He's
:20:24. > :20:29.been in the party for goodness knows how long. All of a sudden he
:20:29. > :20:32.thinks he should scrap the brand. Does he have credibility? In terms
:20:32. > :20:36.of individuals I don't think we can say the individuals have failed. It
:20:36. > :20:41.is our party which has failed. We need to wake up to that. Don't you
:20:41. > :20:46.think we have to take some responsibility? He said in his
:20:46. > :20:50.speech today that we have not failed as 1s. We, as individuals,
:20:50. > :20:54.have gone out there and preached the message. We obviously have not
:20:54. > :21:00.succeeded. It is clear the message has not been listened to or taken
:21:00. > :21:04.by the Scottish elect or rate. They have not wanted to -- electorate.
:21:04. > :21:09.They have not wanted to vote for the party. What the leaders need to
:21:09. > :21:14.be doing is talking to people in Scotland. What he has now is a
:21:14. > :21:19.prolonged period of naval gazing by the Conservatives in Scotland.
:21:19. > :21:25.the party wants to see.... Let him finish.
:21:25. > :21:29.To have a vote in Scotland. I think there's a wide part of the
:21:29. > :21:33.electorate out there what want to support a strong centre-right party
:21:33. > :21:38.in Scotland. Currently they cannot bring themselves to. What Murdo
:21:38. > :21:44.Fraser has seen is why in Scotland, which is not completely different
:21:44. > :21:48.to England in its social attitudes did we have 12% of the vote at the
:21:48. > :21:55.Holyrood election? If you don't get hung up on the name, the different
:21:55. > :22:05.ideas he has put forward are great ideas which can enthuse the people
:22:05. > :22:05.
:22:06. > :22:09.who are not donors. I think it is really exciting. All
:22:09. > :22:13.the candidates will talk about how to change. I will be interested to
:22:13. > :22:17.see how they put the meat on the bones.
:22:17. > :22:27.Thank you all for your time this evening. Let's look at tomorrow's
:22:27. > :22:28.
:22:28. > :22:32.evening. Let's look at tomorrow's This announcement from The
:22:32. > :22:38.University of Edinburgh, how much they will charge to other parts of
:22:38. > :22:42.the UK. Tory donor sabotages Fraser. You
:22:42. > :22:52.will know what all that is about having watched the fram.
:22:52. > :23:07.
:23:07. > :23:17.D That's all the time we have this evening. From all of us here, thank
:23:17. > :23:29.
:23:29. > :23:33.There's a lot of wind and rain around for England and Wales. It
:23:33. > :23:37.will sweep down towards the south- east. Something brighter emerging
:23:37. > :23:41.by the afternoon. A bright and breezy picture across the Midlands.
:23:41. > :23:45.The worst of the rain will be clearing away from Kent and East
:23:45. > :23:48.Sussex by mid-afternoon. So you start off with rain, things should
:23:48. > :23:52.improve later on in the day. Although across western parts of
:23:52. > :23:58.England and Wales, there will be further showers rattling in through
:23:58. > :24:04.the course of the afternoon. It's not looking all that warm out there.
:24:04. > :24:07.Temperatures helds in the mid-teens. -- held in the mid-teens.
:24:07. > :24:14.For Northern Ireland any sunshine will be limited. That is the story
:24:14. > :24:18.for Scotland as well. Brightness possible further east.
:24:18. > :24:22.Further ahead, more showers to come through the middle of the week. A
:24:22. > :24:27.brisk wind making it feel cool, despite some sunshine. Across
:24:27. > :24:31.southern areas too it's a similar picture. Sunshine, yes, but
:24:31. > :24:35.there'll be heavy showers around. So, on Wednesday, probably most of
:24:35. > :24:40.the showers across western parts. The best of the sunshine in the